Manitoba Hansard — 1 March 1990 (Sitting 136, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-136

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, March 1, 1990. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Chairman of Committees): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources . Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources presents the following as their Second Report: and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) .

Nobody likes tax increases and nobody likes the utility rates, telephone and hydro and gas company bills to be escalating on a regular basis, particularly the gas bill, where each year citizens of Manitoba recently have been faced with multiple increases. The people who are on fixed incomes or people that depend on gas in the cold Winnipeg winters, Manitoba winters; find it very difficult to budget or to plan ahead as to what the expenditures might be. Will this Minister tell this House what action he has taken or his department has taken to have a single annual increase put forward by the gas utilities? Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): ~ Your committee met on Tuesday, February 27, 1990, Mr. Speaker , I, no more than the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Angus) or anybody else , like increases. This happens to be a way of life at this time. We are in an inflationary period . We have wage increases. Nobody talks against wage increases . I have not heard the Member for St. Norbert talk against wage increases. ,,. at 8 p .m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building to cons ider Bills referred . On February 27, 1990, your comm ittee elected Mr. Gilleshammer as Chairman .

Your committee has considered: Bill No. 19-The Ground Water and Water Well Amendment Act ; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les eaux souterraines et les puits ; Bill No . 35- The Wildlife Amendment Act; Loi modif iant la

Loi sur la conservation de la faune ; and has agreed to report the same without amendment . All of which is respectfully submitted. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker , I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer), that the report of the committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions may I direct Honourable Members ' attention to the gallery, where we have from the Ken Seaford Junior High School thirty Grade 9 students . They are under the direction of Robert Garton and Verland Hicks.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema). On behalf of all Honourable Members , I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Gas Utilities Annual Rate Increase Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, my questions are to the Minister responsible for Energy Mr. Speaker, we have the Public Utilities Board in place to rule on any rate increases for any of the public utilities, any utilities we have. They are doing the job for us to make certain that the increases are kept at a level that they feel is appropriate at the time. *

(1335) Mr. Angus: Mr. Speaker, the Minister is right. We do have the PUB, but I am concerned about forward planning and the ability for utilities to forward plan. The hydro company does it; they take one annual rate increase . The MPIC takes one rate increase to the PUB. Other provinces have one annual rate increase based on projected revenues and expenses into the future. All of the other provinces do it for the gas companies . Why can the Province of Manitoba not initiate some action and ensure that Manitobans are only faced with one annual increase or decrease on their gas bills? Mr. Neufeld: Mr.

Speaker, it is true that the gas company has come to the Public Utilities Board in this last year with more than one increase . I too would like to see that restricted to only one. However, the Act as we have it today permits the application for interim increases. Until we change that Act, which we may very well do, but until we change it, they are in a position to do so. The Public Utilities Board, as I have said earlier, in the end will adjudicate whether or not those rate increases or applications are appropriate. Mr. Angus: Mr.

Speaker, I will take that as encouragement that the Minister is going to encourage his department to lobby or change the legislation , et cetera. 5647

Goods and Services Tax Impact Hydro Rates Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): I have a different question, Mr. Speaker. on the GST to the same Minister. Has the Minister had an opportunity to measure the negative impact on the GST on hydro rate consumers? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, there will be, the way the legislation is written today, a GST on hydro bills . There will be a reduction of cost to Hydro insofar as the manufacturers sales tax is concerned. The net result for Hydro will be a decrease because they do not pay the GST.

What he is expecting us to do, I suppose, is to see what the effect will be on the users of Manitoba Hydro. That, Mr. Speak er, Manitoba Hydro is reviewing as we speak. They will be in the position to determine the effect of the GST in due course. Manitoba Public Insurance Corp. General Insurance Privatization Mr. John Angus (St . Norbert): To the Mini ster responsible for MP IC (Mr. Cummings), Mr. Speaker, I was concerned and would like an update. Perhaps he would be kind enough to advise the House what the circumstances are on the potential sale of the insurance division.

There has been no mention of it In the annual report. There has been little said about it. We have employees on tenterhooks wondering about their future. Perhaps the Min ister could guide us on that. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, thank you, I am pleased to respond to tha t qu estion. It is obviousl y not something that is able to be put in the annual report, nor should the Member have expected to have seen a dissertation on it at that point.

We do have companies that are expressing interest in the personal and commercial lines of MP IC. We have endeavoured to make sure that when possible, and as soon as possible, we bring information forward to the employees and the public. Mr.Angus: A non-answer. Goods and Services Tax Impact Autopac Rates Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, may I ask this Minister if he has had an opportunity to analyze the impact of the GST on his department at MP IC and what the net effect will be to the consumers of Autopac? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Well, Mr. Speaker, the Member has decided that is the only way you can get a question on the Order Paper today, to try and conjure up concerns about the future. If we continue to have the kind of profit - confident that it will not have as major an impact as some people are beginning to feel. Mr. Angus: Mr. Speak er, is the Min ister suggesting, or proposing, that he is going to use the profits to subsidize the GST and underwrite the cost of the GST in some way? Mr. Cummings: No, Mr.

Speaker, I did not intend to imply that. What I meant to imply was that the reserves billed for the corporation will be in a much more sound fiscal position, in order to be able to provide as reasonable as possible cost for insurance to people of Manitoba. * (13 40) Bill No. 16 Education Minister's Support Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, my questions are to the Mini ster of Education (Mr. Derkach). First of all, today there are some students in the gallery who partici pated in a ceremony which was designed to promote the non-smoking in our schools and amongst young people across the province.

I am wondering, given that the Minister of Cultur e, Heritage and Recreation (Mr s. Mitchelson) spoke to that group, and given our hopefully collective commitment to stopping smoking in the province, particularly amongst young people, whether this Min ister of Education (Mr . Derkach) is prepared to join with his colleagues and support the Bill that was introduced by my colleague, the Member for Concordia (Mr . Doer),

an Act to protect and promote health of non-smokers. Is the Mini ster prepared to support that, stop the smoking in our schools and give a clear signal to the young people of the province that smoking is not good? Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): I hope that the Honourable Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie) will join with all of his colleagues in the House today, as we hope to ask for leave to debate Bill 16 today in the House. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, on .behalf of my colleagues I want to thank the Attorney General (Mr. Mcc rae) for those comments.

Winnipeg School Division Funding MPIC ha s demons trated the last two years I am Mr. Jerry Stori e (Flin Flon): My supp lement ary question is to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) as well. Yesterday, the taxpayers of the Winnipeg School Division learned that they are going to be facing tax increases from between $60 and $80 this year because the Government has refused to provide support to the school division, Winnipeg School Division in particul ar.

I am wondering if the Minister can tell me whether he has met with the Winnipeg School Board to see if he can help them address their situation and whether he offered any additional support to Winnipeg School 5648

Thursday, March 1, 1990 Division, who received only about 60 percent of their total requirements from the Province of Manitoba. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am happy to answer this question, because I think our Government has indeed suppor ted educ ation in thi s province at a very substantial level over the past number of years, the past two years. Our commitment is still to support education, at least at the level of inflation and above.

I might indicate that although the announcement was made with regard to funding, we indicated very clearly that now school divisions have the responsibility of going through their budgets to ensure that they maintain those very essential programs of education that are needed, and that they set their priorities. I have indicated to the Winnipeg School Board that indeed we will be pleased to meet with them, and officials from my department have already met with them to discuss their budgets.

It is very important that they go through their budgets and set their priorities and see what it is they can do and then certainly we would be prepared to enter into some discussions with them as to their situation. Private Schools Funding Formula Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): The Min ister will know that the Winnipeg School Division finds it difficult to understand why this Mini ster can find the money to double private school funding to St. John's Ravenscourt and yet can only provide minimal and frankly insufficient increases to the public schools.

My further question to the Minister is, can the Minister indicate whether, or in what manner private schools in this province have been informed that their in creases again this year will be double that which was received by the public schools in the province? Can he indicate how that message was transmitted or whether it has been transmitted at this point? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, as the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) knows, the funding formula has not changed substantially with regard to funding schools in this province.

As in the past, when we announced funding to public schools, that also triggered the funding for independent schools because there is a formula which was in place when the NOP Government was present in this province that we are still adhering to, in terms of how funds are shifted to the independent schools.

However, I have to indicate to you that we have moved substantially at ensuring that indeed there is not going to be double funding, as was present in the former admin istrat ion, and tha t indeed we clean up the acc ountab il ity question with regard to fina ncial accountability and program accountabili ty. .. (13 45) Funding Analysis Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): The Conservatives and Liberals are prepared to spend an additional $30 million a year to support priv ate schools in the Province of Manitoba at a time when school division after school division is saying this is wrong-headed.

If the Minister wants to see letters I have received from school divisions saying this, trustees from across the province saying that it is time for this nonsense to stop, I will certainly share those with the Min ister. Can the Min ister indicate whether he has undertaken any studies on behalf of the 13 ,000 teachers in this province, the 200,000 students? Has he undertaken any studies to indicate the implications of this massive change in education poli cy, the support of private schools?

Can he indicate whether anything has been done to ascertain what damage will be done to the public schools as a result of this shift in policy? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I have to indicate very clearly to the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) that there has been a very clear commitment from this Government with regard to support of education in this province. There has been not one penny of funds taken from public school funding and channeled into independent schools.

We made a commitment that we would at least support education, at least, at the level of inflation and above, and we have done that. The level of support to schools in this province has been far greater in the last year and a half than it was ever under the NOP administration. I am proud of the record of this Government with regard to support to education, not only public school support, but indeed support to all forms of education in this province. Funding Moratorium Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): My final question is to the Minister of Education (Mr . Derkach) as well.

The Minister is attempting to mislead the people of Manitoba by pretending there has been no change in policy. Funding to private schools has doubled in the Province of Manitoba, Mr. Speak er.

My question to the Minister is, before he proceeds any further, will he place a moratorium on the funding to priv ate schools so that the trustees who represent hundreds of thousands of students across the province, and teachers will have an opportunity to sit down with the Min ister and come to some understanding about the ramifications of this massive change in policy and this decision to subsidize a few elite in this province? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Tr aining): Mr .

Speaker, the onl y thin g th at this Go vernment has put a mora torium on is the squandering of money that was done by the former admi nistration. I have to indicate that we have made a commitment as a Government to support education in this province . 5649

- Thursday, March 1, 1990 Education is a priority and we will continue to support it to the best of our abili ties. We also believe in choices and tha t was made very clear in our elec tion commitment. I am proud to say that public school education in this province is being supported far better than it was supported under the former Government. Forks Development Corp. Boat Basin Construction l\ll r. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker,- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Mem ber for Fort Rouge. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Ducharme). Last Friday excavation began at The Forks site toward the building of a boat basin at the cost of some $2.5 million. Yet on Tuesday of this week when we asked the Mi nister of Tourism (Mr. Ernst) questions about it, he did not know that construction had begun. If he did know, he was not prepared to comment on it. Since $2.5 million all comes from the taxpayer, will the Minister of Urban Affairs tell us why that decision was taken without public knowledge? Will he tell us today what is going on over there? Hon . Jim Ernst (Minister of In dustry , Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, the question was raised by my honourable friend two or three days ago. I was quite correct in the response that I gave. I can tell my honourable friend that today we have an app lication from The Forks Development Corporation for funding under the Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement for payment of the cost of building the boat basin and walk way along the river. At the time that work was commenced, no application had been received. Discussions, prelimina ry at best, had taken place.

Because of the timing of the rapidly advancing spring season, certain work had to be undertaken immediately if it was to be concluded prior to the breakup of the Assiniboine River. I gather from The Forks Development Corporation that they are proceeding in the hopes that their application will be approved, and I suspect it will be. *

(1350) Boat Basin Funding Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Spea ker, but when we asked the Minister of Tourism (Mr . Ernst) these questions on Tuesday, he took them as notice on behalf of the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr . Ducharme). Today we ask the Min ister of Urban Affairs and the Minister of Tourism answers the question. Now the Minister of Tourism has just told us that excavat ion has begun on the pr oject before an app lication has been filed for the funding. Why in heaven's name did the excavation begin before there was a commitment to fund the project? Hon .

Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry , Trade and Tourism): I think I answered that question in my first answer, but for the Honour able Mem ber for Fort Rouge's (Mr . Carr) benefit, I will do it again. Mr. Speaker, I indicated that because of the time constraints related to the rapidly advancing spring season certain work has to be undertaken prior to the breakup of the river. Mr.

Speaker, The Forks Development Corporation in anticipation of approval and, as I indicated to him, some discussions had taken place, and I suspect that they will get approval of this project-that they commence work in order to beat the breakup of the Assiniboine River. That seems to me- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Ernst: -to be a reasonable and prudent course of action in order to (

a) complete the project, and (

b) to keep the costs to as low an amount as possible. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speak er, there is incredible confusion over there about what is going on at The Forks. They do not know what Minister should answer the questions. First it was the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme). Now it is the Minister of Tourism (Mr . Ernst). They do not know how the money is being used- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! POINT OF ORDER Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. The Honou rable Government House Leader, on a point of or der. Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr .

Speaker, the Ho nourable Mem ber and his colleagues have had ample time during the Estimates process of this House to ask all kinds of questions and make speeches. This is not the time for speeches, and the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) ought to know that and ought to put his questions. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. On. the point of order raised by the Honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mccrae), he is quite correct. Time is extremely scarce. Brevity both in answers and in questions is of extreme importance. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. Mr. Carr: Thank you very much. Mr.

Speaker- ***** Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Wolseley, on a point of order. Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, in order to facilitate the operation of Question Period, I think it would be advisable if the First Minister (Mr . Filmon) did not continuously cry from his seat comments like fool- 5650

Thursday, March 1, 1990 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ord er, ple ase ; order , please. The Honourable Member for Wolseley (Mr. Taylor) will take his seat. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. I would remind all Honourable Members, the Honourable Member did not have a point of order but he raises a valid point. For our viewing public, I have to advise Honourable Mem bers again, decorum is of extreme importance. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. Forks Development Corp. Boat Basin Construction Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, with a final supplementary question to, I do not know, I will try the Min ister of Urban Affairs (Mr . Ducharme). The site that has been chosen for excavation for the boat basin is a very sensitive one, because there could be contained within tha t site some very important archeological artifacts of interest to all of the people of Manitoba and, indeed, the people of North America. Can the Minister of Urban Affairs give us assurances that those precious artifacts are not in the least being threatened by this excavation, which apparently has no purpose and apparently has no permit? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I do not know who is doing it first, if the Member from across the way is getting his information from his Liberal colleagues in City Hall or getting it from the paper. If you read the paper you will see that we have a person on site by the name of Mr. Kroker, who is on there from seven in the morning until seven at night surveying the situation, along with his assistant, and he is watching that site very explicitly.

I am sure the Memb er will enjo y the walkway along the Assiniboine; when all gets completed he maybe will not be so negative on every project that goes towards The Forks. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. James. Order. Order, please. The Honourable Member for St. James. *

(1355) POWA Agreement Qualification Period Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Acting Minister of Labour. Mr. Speaker, the Program for Older Worker Adjustment agreement sig ned by the Labour Mini ster (Mr s. Hammond), by excluding all of those who have not lived in Canada and worked in Canada for 15 years, also means that women who may not have entered the work force until late in life, for whatever reason, are also discriminated against. If they do not have 15 years of employment they do not qual ify.

That is a ridiculously long waiting period which also amou nts to 5651 discrimination against women. Why did not the Minister object to this unreasonably long qualification period? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The Honourable Member, I believe, dealt with this matter yesterday and I will bring his question of today to the attention of the Min ister of Labour (Mr s. Hammond). Women Exclusion Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, again for the Acting Min ister of Labour, can the Minister indicate, can the Acting Minister indicate, what percentage of women in Manitoba have not worked 15 years in the work force before age 55, so that the Minister can tell the House how many Manitoba women are excluded from this agreement? Presumably she would have had that information before her before she would have signed this agreement with this exclusion in it. Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I did not bring that information with me to the House today. I will ask the Minister of Labour (Mrs.

Hammond) to-I will bring the question to her attention. POWA Agreement Qualification Period Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, final ly, for the Premier (Mr. Filmon). This agreement was signed and ratified by Cabinet. I would like the Premier to tell the House if it is the policy in fact of this Government to build in systemic discrimination into agreements like this which it has done. It is with respect to women; it is also with respect to new immigrants.

My question to the Premier, specifically is, the qualification for UIC is 16 to 20 weeks-why is the qua lification period for this program 37 times that qua lification period? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Program for Older Worker Adjustment is a program that- An Honourable Member: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Filmon: -i s over and above all of the safety net programs that have been put in place- An Honourable Member: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable First Minister. Mr. Filmon: -unemplo yment insurance, retraining opportunities, other forms of assistance.

This is a new program that goes over and beyond what any other former programs had been able to provide where special circu mstances such as major layoffs, as took place under the former NDP administration with the closure of the Canada Packers plant in Manitoba that closure -(interjection)-

Thursday, March 1, 1990 Mr. Speaker: Or der, pl ease ; or der, pl ease. The Honourable First Min ister. Mr.

Filmon: That closure, of course, affected many long-term employees, many of whom, because of age and ci rcumstance, could not benefit from the existing programs for retraining and re-entry into the work force, so it provided yet another opportunity to give some Government assistance and we, as a Government, were happy to be able to enter into agreement with the federal Government, to provide this assistance that had not heretofore been available so that many older workers who were faced with circumstances that they would not have been able to find any support for previously, now are able to get that support.

That is some - (interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the Member for St. James (Mr . Edwards) asks questions and then- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I remind the Honourable First Minister (Mr . Filmon) that answers to questions should be as short as possible. The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. Native Communication Network Funding Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Heritage and Culture (Mrs. Mitchelson). The Min ister of Finance in Ottawa tabled cutbacks to the Native communication programs.

Here in Manitoba we have the Native Media Network and also the Native communication programs. They have been doing a great job in promoting programs for Native people and also advising the general public. I am asking the Min ister whether there would be continued funding for these two Native programs and also will she lobby with the federal Government to ensure that these programs will continue and also to put pressure on the federal Gover nment on how important th ese programs are in the aborigi nal community. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr.

Speaker, I do agree that the Native commu nication programs have some very beneficial impacts on the Native community and on the Manitoba community in general. We are in the process of, once we get out of this House, establishing our budget process for next year. All programs will be looked at. We certainly will be looking at what the implications of the federal cutbacks will be on those programs. * (14 00) Native Organizations Funding Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): My supplementary is to the Min ister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey).

The Nat ive organizations are very concerned about the cutbacks, and they want to be assured by this provincial Government their funding to their organ izat ions, particularly MK O, Southeast Tribal Council, also First Nation's Confederacy-their programs have been 100 percent cut by the federal Government. Will thi s Go vernment assure th at th ese Na ti ve organizations will get their funding from the provincial Government, and also will the Mi nister lobby with the !eds to ensure that there might be possible funding for these Native organizations? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr . Speaker, as my coll eague has ju st responded to the Member for Rupertsland (Mr. Harper), my answer is the same, that funding for a future year will be assessed as we go through the Estimates process. I say it is not our intention to pick up federal responsibility where in fact they have cut back. It is our intention to carry out with priorities that have been identified for community support, such as northeast hydro, which was announced for his community, and those are the areas in which we anticipate strong support from our Government.

Northern Development Agreement Replacement Funding Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): My final question is to the same Min ister. This is in respect to the Northern Development Agreement in which I believe we have lost $270 million. Some of those programs had human development education programs such as northern nursing, social work, teachers. I think we have had over 400 Na tive teachers under Br andon Un ivers ity programs. The northern people are concerned where this funding might be coming from as a result of loss of NOA.

Does this mean that the provincial Government will be providing 100 percent funding to these programs now? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): As has been indicated many times, we are committed to the North and to the education of the northern communities. The agreement that the Member refers to in fact did run out under the former New Democratic Party. There was not a long-term agreement in place. In fact, there was ju st an extension of a previous long -term agreement. There are active discussions going on with my colleague, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach), who is doing an extremely good job of administering and handling the educational programs in the North. As we prioritize the activities we are discussing with the federal Government, and as I had answered before, we expect to have a program in place that will in fact take the priority items of this Government, the federal Go vernment and the northern commu nities, and advance with them. 5652

Thursday, March 1, 1990 Cross-Cultural Education Government Initiatives Mrs . Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Mr . Speak er, my question is to the Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mr s. Mitchelson). Last night were the closing ceremonies of Black History Month in Manitoba. It was a momentous month to celebrate the role of blacks in our community. During February we saw the release of Nelson Mandela from 27 years of imprisonment caused because he dared ask for freedom. It was also a month when Manitobans proved that racism is alive and just too healthy in our province.

Will the Minister outline what action plans she has in place to educate Manitobans to the value and worth of every citizen in Manitoba, regardless of background and origin? Hon . Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Cultur e, Heritage and Recreati on): Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, I did not hear the end of the question. There was a little bit of noise surrounding me. I wonder if I might ask the Member to repeat that. Mrs . Charles: My question to the Minister was, does she have any plan in place for cross-cultural education in the Province of Manitoba to wipe out racism within our time? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I thank the Member for Selkirk (Mr s. Cha rles) for that question. We do in fact have certain programs in place right now that are ongoing. That does not mean to say there will not be new programs or new initiatives, Mr. Speak er. I do know that the one initiative that we have taken most recently, just at the beginning of this year, was to second a person over to the Manitoba Federation of Labour from my department with full salary paid by the Government of Manitoba in the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation.

They are going to be looking over the next short period of time in developing programs that are going to combat racism. That information will come back to Government through that empl oyee, information that will be shared, Mr. Speaker, with all of the Manitoba community. It certainly is an education process that is going to have to be used to combat racism. As I have indicated in the past, there is no way that Government can legislate people to love one another, to accept one another.

It is through the educational process, and it is by sharing one culture with another culture and understanding each other that we can combat that form of activity. Racist Material Char ges Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I believe the majority of Manitobans were disgusted when we saw various racist and discriminating products brought into the province. Has the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation met with the Attorney General (Mr. Mccrae) in order to demand that charges will be laid against all those people and companies that promote racism within our province? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr. Speaker, not only have I met with the Attorney General, but just some short time ago, when all of this came to light, the Attorney General (Mr. McCrae), the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and myself had a meeting with the executive of the MI C.

We had a very fruitful and prod uctive meeting discussing all of these different issues and, as a matter of fact, I have sent, by way of letter, a request back to the MIC that they work with their communities, in consultation with their communities and bring forward to Government recommenda ti ons on what the communities are saying about what activities we should be pursuing in this province. Racist Material Charges Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): My question to the Attorney General (Mr .

Mcc rae): will the Attorney General remove his ban on laying charges against those companies and people that promoted racism in the province by allowing the racist pins to exist in the stores and in the hands of the public in the province? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): There is no ban on prosecutions against hatred in this province, Mr. Speaker. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for St. James, on a point of order. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, I feel compelled to point out that the Minister perhaps misunderstood the question- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, there is an outright ban on anyone else bringing a prosecution in this pr ovince, and he knows full well- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. What is your point? Mr. Edwards -that was his decision. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. 5653

Thursday, March 1, 1990 Goods and Services Tax Tax Form Information Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, have a question- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Brandon East has the floor. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness). The federal Government is determined to bring in the GST in spite of it being an attack on low- and middle-income Canadians. Now the federal Government has included material relating to the GST in the 1989 income tax forms.

This is an affront to Parliament, it is an affront to the democratic process, since the legislation has not yet been passed and Manitobans, including my constituents, are upset about this. Can the Minister tell us whether he was previously advised by the federal Government that this material was to be included in the'89 forms? Has the Minister protested to the federal Government on the inclusion of the material in the 1989 tax forms? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I can remember a time when I opened my guide that came from Ottawa and I came across these nice orange pages that were inserted by the NOP Government of the time. It had a fair amount of propaganda associated with- An Honourable Member: Did they have Len's picture on it? Mr. Manness: The picture of the Member for Brandon East (Mr . Leonard Evans) was not there, but I still could see his writing throughout it all. Mr.

Speaker, the short answer to the question is, I was surprised when I became apprised of this fact, and I have registered some of that concern-that I share by the way with the Member opposite-with the Minister of Finance federally. Goods and Services Tax Joint Collection System Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Wilson has said that he is looking forward to co-operation between the provinces and his department to colle ct the GST. We know there have been discussions between Ottawa and the Minister's department on this matter.

Can the Mini ster gi ve us an up da te on such discussions and negotiations on establishing a joint federal-provincial collection mechanism in Manitoba? Has there been any progress in establishing a joint federal-provincial collection mechanism? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I think I reported on this issue last about three weeks ago. At that time I indicated that there was not an awful lot of progress.

Today I can report there still is not an awful lot of progress, harmonization of bases, of course, being the starting point from the federal perspective and we, as a province, saying that there is no way we are interested in harmonizing bases. Once you cannot even get to the starting point, the starting line, obviously you have some difficulty. There are other areas where there are discussions going on, not the least of which is the impact on municipal ities with respect to the goods and services tax.

Of course there are various options being put forward, certainly by one of the major provinces to the east, associated with the impact on municipalities. * (1 410) Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the Minister tell the House that he will absolutely not co-operate with the federal Go vernment on establi shing a join t collection mechanism at this time? Will Manitoba do its part to oppose the GST by saying that we will absolutely not co-operate with the federal Government in this matter? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Spea ker, this is where I guess we differ a little bit with the NDP who could care less as to the impact on small businesses in this province. This Government has said from Day One, in spite of our very strong opposition to the goods and services tax, that if we can find any method by which our small businesses can somehow reduce the cost of collecting our tax, which was increased last, by the way, by the NOP, and the federal new goods and services tax, if we can find any way to try and reduce and mitigate the additional costs associated with the imposition of two taxes, then we will try to work toward that end.

Hog Industry Production Figures Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr . Spea ker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay). In the Manitoba Mar ket Reports, dated February 23, is this statement, and I quote: Manitoba's slaughter hog marketings have been below packer requirements for most of this year. Can the Minister give some explanation as to why Manitoba hog producers are not meeting the demand of the packers in Manitoba this current year? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agri culture): Mr. Speaker, the hog production cycle traditionally goes through high and low periods.

Generally when the price of hogs goes down, the production backs off because it becomes less economical to produce hogs. That is a traditional cycle, and Ma nitoba Pork Produc ers Marketing Board, now called Manitoba Pork Est., does acquire hogs from western Canada, Saskatchewan and Alberta, to fill in the void where the packers and processors need additional hogs for kill in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Laurie Evans: Mr. Spea ker, it is a very interesting answer, but the other thing that is interesting is 250,000 weanling hogs have left this province in the past year. 5654

., Thursday, March 1, 1990 Can one infer from that that we are moving the same way as the cattle industry, that we are going to be providing the animals for someone else to use the value added concept and whereby we lose the market and the value-added component? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker , 10 years ago , in 1980, Manitoba produced 800 ,000 hogs a year. This year we will produce about 1.8 million to 1.9 million hogs in the Province of Manitoba . I say the hog industry has been in a tremendous growth cycle and will continue to grow in this province with strong producers producing hogs to a strong market. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expir ed. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: Order , please . Does the Honourabl e Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks . Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Thank you, Mr. Speaker . On February 13, 1990, I and four othe r Canadian parliamentarians were invite d to visit Ukraine by a group of Ukrainian par li am entar ians. I was scheduled to arrive in Ukraine this past Tuesday and remain until March 10.

This Tuesday afternoon I was info rm ed that the Parliaments of Ukraine and USSR had denied us visas. This denial , Mr. Speaker, is a sad indictment of Mr. Gorbachev's fine words about glasnost and pere stroika. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please . I would remind the Honourable Member that the Members have granted you leave to make a non-political statement. The Honourable Member is coming extremely clo se to making th is a political issue. I would caution the Honourable Member . The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, to carry on his remarks. Mr. Minenko: Well , Mr.

Speaker , it is not a matte r of politics within this Chamber. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Orde r, please. Mr. Minenko: I seek the direction from the Speaker to advise me whether I can continue in this matter or not. POINT OF ORDER Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader , on a poin t of order. Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member is a former Deputy Speaker of this House .

I suggest that if he wants to argue with the Speake r or get on with something that is not a non-political statement, that Honourable Members might wish to withdraw leave for the Honourable Member . If he wants, on the other hand , to get on with a non-political statement, we would be happy to hear from him. Mr. Speaker : On the same point of order, the Honourable Member for Osborne. Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker , I thi nk the Member has indicated that he will take direction on this issue. He is not meaning to make this a political issue in the least.

It is a personal issue that he has been involved with and has a great deal of feeling about, and wanted to express that feeling to the House. He believed he was mak ing a non-p olitical statement in the sense in this Chamber . He has gotten a little carried away. He has asked direction from the House , and I trust he will honour the direction he has been given. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please . Mr. McCrae: On the same point, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: On that same point of order? Mr. Mccrae : On the same point, Mr. Speaker- Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader. Mr.

McCrae: -the Honourable Opposition House Leader (Mr. Alcock) is suggesting that non-political means non-political in the sense of this Chamber , but the Honourable Member understands that there are political issues that go far beyond this Chambe r, and that needs to be borne in mind by Honourable Members also. Mr. Speaker: On the poin t of order raised by the Honourable Government House Leader (Mr. McCrae) and the advice also given by the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) , both Honourable Members are quite correct. I have cautioned the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr.

Minenko), and he has said tha t he would adhere to the responsibilities or the leave that has been given to him by the House . The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, do you want to carry on with your remarks in a non-political fashion? ***** Mr. Minenko: Mr. Speaker , from listening to what the Government has to say and suggest , my subsequent comments would fall within what he suggests is not within the realm of a discussion in this particular

section of our Orders in the House , and I indeed feel greatly concerned that it is crucial that the election that is going to be held this Sunday in Ukraine be conducted openly and democratically , and I hope that the Canadian Government expresses their protest of these actions to the highest levels of the Russian Embassy. Thank you . 5655

Thursday, March 1, 1990 Mr. Speaker: There is also another vehicle open to the Honourable Member. He has a grievance process if he has not used his time yet. COMMITTEE CHANGES Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Memb er for Gimli, with a committee change. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Pr aznik), th at the compo sition of the Sta nd ing Committee on Industrial Relations be amended as follows: Derkach for Mitchelson, and Enns for Pankratz. Also, I move, seconded by the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments for this evening's sitting be amended as follows: Downey for Findlay. Mr. Speaker: Agreed? Agreed. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you call the Orders of the Day as listed in today's Order Paper. Mr. Speaker: Okay. DEBATE ON THIRD READINGS AMENDED BILLS BILL NO. 83-THE OZONE DEPLETING SUBSTANCES ACT Mr. Speaker: On the pr opo sed motion of the Honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), Bill No. 83, The Ozone Depleting Substa nces Act;

Loi sur les substances appauvrissant la couche d'ozone, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Wolseley, the Honourable Member for Wolseley. Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): It seems to be the week for environmental legislation. We were in delegation this morning hearing representations about the WRAP Act and the reduction of industrial waste. We, yesterday, dealt with two other pieces of legislation which saw the raising of fines within existing pieces of legislat ion, which was The Environment Act and The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act. We have here,

an Act of a little bit more substance than those two that were dealt with yesterday. We are de aling here with Bill 83, The Ozone Deple ting Su bstances Act. This is a first for Manitoba. We do not have legislation of this nature on the books in this province. I think for that reason it was incumbent upon this Government and this Environment Minister (Mr. Cummings) to bring forward legislation of this nature. (Mr .

William Chornopyski, Deputy Spea ker, in the Chair) There has been legislation put forward a few jurisdictions in Canada on how to protect the ozone layer from various types of industrial chemicals which we or our suppl iers use daily. The significance of the ozone depletion should be mentioned, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Taylor: Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I appreciate that.

Yesterday I had to contend with the heckling simultaneously by four Government Ministers and one not three feet away from me, but today there was a different tactic, it was just general hubbub. An Honourable Member: We usually get hubbubs around here once in a while. .. (1 420) Mr. Taylor: Oh, now I am going to have another Government Minister off my right shoulder about three away. Come and sit in my chair and keep it warm, Mr. Justice Minister. I see, heckling at close order. The Act before us, Mr. Deputy Speaker, though in all seriousness, is one that does deserve its time for serious and deli berate debate.

The ozone layer is a microthin layer in the upper atmosphere which protects animal and plant life from the onslaught of the ultraviolet rays of the sun. Tha t ozone la yer is su bject, however, to the deleterious effects of the escape of products like chlorofluorocarbons and halogens which are in regular industrial use and I might even say home use on this planet. What has been evidenced has been that this fragile but critical ozone layer has been depleted, and has been depleted rather seriously over our own North Pole.

Canada through its satelli tes and ground monitoring stations has been building up a significant amount of scientific evidence on that hole in the ozone layer above the north polar region. The scientific evidence is, however, not complete. There is no certainty amongst the scientists as to the full cause for the deterioration, nor is there or does there seem to be an explanation as to why the hole in the ozone layer at the North Pole changes. It changes its shape, it changes its size. It appears to be seasonally based to some extent, but there is no certainty as to what is happening.

One of the more notable and alarming developments, however, has been the development of the hole in the south polar region in which the ozone layer there has completely disappeared and in which the hole is growing at a rather astou ndin g rate. The hole has been increasing over the last few years at an average rate of some 22 percent. Now with an opening like that growing, the alarm bells went off all over the scientific world.

We finally have scientists getting the attention of their legislators and saying this cannot go on, we must stop using materials that are deleterious to that ozone layer, and we see here before us

an Act that starts to do some of that. I am pleased to see it. However, when the Liberals brought this up more than a year and a ha lf ago, I bel ieve it was in 5656

Thursday, March 1, 1990 September'88, that something should be done about prote cting the ozone layer in this ju risdiction, we provided information of products that were available in our stores, our hardware stores, right here in this city. The Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) first said, Mr. Deputy Speaker, there is no need for that in Manitoba. We do not have enough products that are creating the disappearance of the ozone layer. We then presented a position to the Finance Minister in which we said to that Honourable Minister, here are products that are available at the retail level in Manitoba.

Until such time as nationa l legislation is more encom pass ing, until such time as the nationa l Government bans the importation, because these were imported products, and hence their arrival on our store shelves, would you consider putting on a tax, a disincentive sales tax, on products containing free CFCs and halogens? In September'88 our Minister of Finance said, that would be imprudent of me to tax a product containing CFCs. I would have to say, I think it was imprudent of him not to, but we have before us this Bill No. 83 now, The Ozone Depleting Substances Act. It lists in it, under

Section 3(2), Application, a whole series of materials which do have the effect of damaging and destroying the ozone layer. We have CFCs 11, 12, 11 3, 11 4, 11 5; Halon 1211, 13 01, 2402 and then a general catch-all one, which is any packaging or wrapping or container that is made of material that contains ozone depleting substances. That is all very well and fine to say that sort of thing, but let us remember how some of these materials come into our daily lives.

Certainly some of them are in packaging and certainly some of them are in wrapping, but let us take a look at the Halon products that are in our automotive headlights or in floodlights. Let us take a look at the Halons that exist within a myriad of firefighting products. What I am talking about is the common red fire extinguisher you see hanging in the hall or in the workplace. Those contain Halons. The most common material which will deplete the ozone of course are CFCs contained within refrigeration and freezing equipment.

That is the substance that is inside the coils of refrigerating and freezing equipment that gives it the cooling effect. It first is produced as a gas and then as it produces the cooling effect and absorbs the heat, it will reform into a liquid and the process goes on and on. Now what we have is we have a lot of older equipment. The equipment is well made, whether that be for equipment that is used in the home, whether it is equipment that is used in the store or whether it is industrial storage equip ment. It is very well made. It has a long lasting life.

The problem is that over time parts start to wear out, tubing starts to get too thin, the gas starts to seep out As soon as it does, it starts to migrate up into the upper atmosphere and create the damage. The migration takes a mighty long time, 10 to 30 years for some of it to move very, very slowly up into the upper atmosphere. Once there though it combines with other materials into in effect an acid and eats away at the ozone layer.

The only way to stop 5657 this whole thing from happening is to stop the escape of these CFCs and Halons, et cetera, stop that escape before it starts its migration up into the atmosphere. The comment has been made th at if all CFC production in the world were stopped, it would take 10 to 30 years for the final damage to be done to the ozone layer before any corrective effect could take place.

What that is saying is that we are setting a sentence by our lack of activity in this area on the next generation and potentially the generation after that, because once the CFCs and the Halons are beyond our control they never can be retrieved. They will gradually migrate to that upper atmosphere and they will insidiously destroy that protective ozone layer. * (14 30) A few years ago in Montreal a convention was signed by the industrialized nations which said by the late'90s they would cut pr oduction by half. The Mo ntreal convent ion I th ink is a watchword amon gst environmentalists.

It has however become a dated watchword and that is very unfortunate. The reason is that two years after the Montreal convention was signed, further information, Mr. Deputy Spea ker, came forward from the scientists based on more observations from satellites which indicated what I said about the South Pole, that the deterioration of the ozone layer is happening more than we thought. The deterioration is actually accelerat ing. That is a very serious thing. What Ontario did in response was it said, we think we should go further than that.

We think we should take the same date in the mid-'90s and say, instead of having a 50 percent cut there should be an 80 percent cut. You know what the Environment Minister then of this province said? What is Ontario doing daring to get out of lock step with the rest of us? We are saying we do not need any legislation in Manitoba, because the problem is not serious enough. Ontario dares to show any leadership, dares to show any initiative, and dares to give further protection to the ozone layer. Well I wish to heck we had seen such daring here. I wish we had seen such leadership.

I wish we had seen such legislation earlier, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because it was needed. This legislation also has some serious flaws with it. It talks about certain products that should not be used, and it assumes that all the replacement materials are available. The unfortunate reality is that not all of them are, because the ones that have been developed are yet not fully test proven. The hope is they will be. However the deadline years of when they are to be ready are slipping, Mr. Deputy Speaker, they are slipping a few months, a half a year, a year.

Products that were intended to be available two years from now are now not going to be available till three years from now. The scientists and the chemists in the chemical firms are not as optimistic as they once were. They know they will be successful in the end. They are just not so certain when that end point will be reached. We had some interesting presentations on this matter at the committee stage. The one group that I found most enlightening was an industry group that is involved with the maintenance and repair of refrigeration and

Thursday, March 1, 1990 freezing equipment. They are very concerned with the environment too. It was interesting to hear how much study they had actually done of this thorny problem of dealing with CFCs that are contained within that refrigeration and freezing equipment. Their view was that in most cases, because of the durability of the applia nces, they would be dealing with that equipment for some time to come because it was uneconomic for the owners to replace such equipme nt.

They said there are some solutions avai lable, some technical, mechanical solutions, which will facil itate the trapping and retaining of CFC products. I thought that was great. I thought that was really heartening. They are saying that there are certain techniques that can be used in the repair process. They are saying there are certain criteria that can be established of when a

part is reasonably replaceable or when it is not reasonably replaceable and really the whole piece of equipm ent should then be junked and a new, safer piece of equipment bought. They said there are some threshold lines and some measures which can indicate that. They also indicated though that because there are some difficult decision calls to be made, because there is a myriad of equip ment over quite a range of years, which means different types of technology and qual ity, et cetera, that it requires different levels of knowledge and skill to be able to properly service this equipme nt.

The suggestion was that there be in Manitoba the establishment of a hierarchy of service knowledge levels for refrigeration and freezing equipment. I believe if my memory serves right they suggested five separate levels, Mr. Deputy Speaker, which would indicate levels of skill and hence levels of complexity that a service person could attempt to work on. They said by establishing this hierarchy of skills amongst service people and hierarchies of levels of knowledge that we would be very well served. This is something that does not take great scientific endeavor.

It is not meaning that we have to establish research labs and develop products that are going to replace these chl orofluorocarbons and Halon s that are causing all the problems. This is saying, here is a real life, practical solution, not the whole solution, but a very, very commendable and practical interim measure which would answer the needs of this jurisdiction and I would say the world. There were briefings given to the Environ ment Department officials going back some eight, nine months ago, Mr. Deputy Speaker .

Eight, nine months back in private session these very same points were put forward to the Government officials. There was the opportunity for them to ask the Government official questions and the reverse was true also. There was a good exchange of information. They were aware of the general thrust of the Government legislation but had not reviewed it. It was not yet drafted.

Her e it was, the Go vernme nt officials and the Environment Department had a wonderful opportunity to include a very practical aspect in this Act, in Bill No. 83, and potentially involving the Department Labour as well because we are talking here about the establishment of skill levels and the licensing of service people in this industry, so tying in there as well. It could have been something as a bit of a larger approach to the problem.

What happened is when this piece of legislation came forward at the committee stage and the refrigeration and freezing service people and their association representatives came forward in delegation to speak and put a position forward, the truth came out. Although there had been a couple of letters exchanged, the Government was not prepared to buy into this at all. I am not sure why, what it was that was so onerous about the establishment of educational levels and skill levels for people servicing these sort of applia nces, but the issue and the position was virtually ignored by the Government.

What we did have is, after they came back, after this association came back to this Legislature a second time, this time in the formal process of delegation at committee stage of this Bill, the Government in response I believe put forward one or two very minor amendments answering a couple of points that the association put forward. They did not make any profound change to the Act itself. That to me shows a lack of preparedness on the part of this Go vernment and on the par t of this Environment Mi nister (Mr . Cumm ings), Mr. Deputy Spea ker.

It shows that, yes, they have a piece of legislation that is brought forward and may pass today on ozone depleting substances, but where are some of the pr act ical aspects of th is? Why was the refrigeration servicing industry association not listened to? Why were their solutions, other than a couple of very mi nor cla use amend ments, why were tho se concerns not embraced?

Why was this piece of legislation first of all developed in this fashion, when some months before it came forward to the House there was the chance to include those, and why was it not again delayed then when there was a second opportunity in committee stage to bring in these other more profound changes?

I would suggest profound, yes, but very, very practical, the sort of thing that can be done right now, today, with today's knowledge levels. * (1 440) It means technical study, possibly the embracing of this initiative by community colleges like Red River and Keewatin and Assiniboine, and so there would be the involvement of the Mi nister of Education and Training (Mr . Derkach). This Government has said they very much want to tie together tech nic al training and the Edu cation Department.

This would have been an initiative to tie that department in so the labour Department, the Ed uca tion Department, working toget her with the Department of Environment for a very positive and practical initiative to help us here in Manitoba, but also to help the global situation and the protection of the ozone layer, but we did not see that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We did not see it because, again, this Government is 5658

Thursday, March 1, 1990 soft on the environment. The old buzzword generator is working overtime again. We have an ozone depletion piece of legislation before us that does some of the right things, but it anticipates products becoming available earlier than in reality they are going to become avai lable, and it totally ignores some of the practical solutions that were being offered to it by the industry association.

I must say, as industry representatives, I was very, very pleased to see they had done an enormous amount of homework on their own, had done a fantastic lot of learning about this subject, who provided welcome information to the Mem bers of the committee, and who were asked numerous questions and provided rather substantive detailed answers. I would have to say that we have another missed opportunity. We had the opportunity missed in the first year of the mandate of this Government in'88 when we had both the then Environment Min ister and our present Finance Minister (Mr .

Ma nness) turning down init iat ives sug gested by the Li berals on ozone protection. Now we have the actual legislation before us which there was an opportunity to construct it with that information and with that thrust in it of how to practically deal with equipment that needs repair, how do you contain those CFCs within that equipment safely, empty it, repair it, refill it? The techniques are avai lable. Why are we not doing specialized training in Manitoba to make sure that our service people have that training, and why are we not monitoring them, and why are we not certifying them? We are not doing it, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , because this admi nistration is soft as heck on the environment. They say the nice things, they do not do what is necessary to protect us. They, instead, delay legislation, they bring in legislation that is not comp lete and they fault adjacent jur isdictions for showing leadership on the matter. I am rather taken aback at that sort of a situation, but that is what we have come to expect from this Government. We have seen it on Bill 81, we have seen it on Bill 82, we see it again today in Bill 83, The Ozone Depleting Su bstances Act.

I think it is unfortunate for us in this province, I think it is unfortunate for anybody on this globe and in the future generations because until we take an issue like ozone depletion deadly seriously we are not going to see anything corrected. How do we know how we are going to be impacted in later age when we start getting, and unfortunately our childr en and our grandchildr en start getting, all sorts of skin afflictions because the skin has been impacted by excess amounts of ultr aviolet rays? I would suggest that it is not a laughing matter, it is very, very serious.

There has already been some evidence of an increase of skin cancer, and skin cancer in parts of the world where you would not have expected the increase to be seen. We are not talking about in Florida, in California, where people of caucasian background who have little skin pigmentation to begin with, end up spreading themselv es out as professional tanners and they get brown as heck and they also start losing the dexterity of their skin and they start getting skin cancers and other skin problems a lot sooner than they should, and somebody from the other side says: 5659 What a way to go.

I guess he is just trying to get me browned off here. Some Mem bers that do have more hair than I, they may not be burning the top of their heads quite as soon, and I envy them for that. In any case, we do not have much choice in this matter. It is all up to the genes, as they say. An Honourable Member: Yes, but at least you will not go grey. Mr. Taylor: Somebody on the other side says at least I will not go grey. I hope I will not suffer from skin cancer so that at least I have a chance of going grey. The matter is serious. We are going to see impacts on people on this globe.

The interesting thing is that the deterioration of the ozone layer is happening in the polar regions. That means right within our own territory. I do not think it augurs very well for the long-term effect. I really wonder, you know, we can be here today debating this sort of thing. We can make a few jokes back and forth, nothing wrong with that, but seriously, Mr. Deputy Speaker, what is going to happen in the future? What is going to happen to our children and their chil dren when you have an ozone layer that will not only have deteriorated further at the poles but will have thinned everywhere else?

Although it still will exist-and that is the prediction, it will start having smaller holes here and there. That thin layer will stop some of the ultraviolet rays but not the numbers of ultr aviolet rays that were the case when we were younger. What is going to happen? We are going to have all sorts of skin afflictions, and who knows what other damage might be done. We do not know that yet. Anything that can be done in this nature has got to be done.

That is why I fault the Government for not taking seriously an industry initiative to better train service people so we will stop the escape of these insidious CFCs and Halons. In addition, I would also like to see leadership out of this Government, vis-a-vis our national Government in the international context, because what will happen is th at while production may be red uced very significantly within a few years in the industrialized world the worry is that the multinational corporations will move the production from the industrialized world to the Third World.

So what will happen is you will have lip- service environmentalism on a global scale. You will see the production of CFCs almost stopped in our country, in the Un ited States, in Britain and other European countries, but what will happen? Will you see a plant set up in Thailand? Will you see a plant set up in an African country? They are already set up, some of them, and plans are for more of them. Why-to repla ce the very plants that are coming out of production in the industriali zed world.

Those multinational corporations will be able to say to their Governments and to their shareholders: We abided by the 1988 Montreal convention on the ozone. What will happen instead is we will have as much CFC production in a less controlled environment going on

Thursday, March 1, 1990 in the globe. We will have CFCs continuing to escape into the atmosphere with their known deleterious effects. * (14 50) I am disappointed not only in the legislation, Mr. Deputy Speaker , but in the lack of coming to grips with the issue by this Government from the kiss-offs we got in the early fall of'88 to the fact that there has been brought up to them in the Estimates process in late'88, the Estimates process again in December.

Where are your initiatives to the federal Government to say we expect more within Canadian jurisdictions of Canada in general and of Canada as a serious and important component of the world community? There has been no statement from Manitoba as to where we stand. That is to me not only unfortunate but, given the seriousn ess of the ma tter , unconscionable.

I fault the Government for that, and I hope with the quietness we are hearing from the other side for once on this matter that we are having Ministers hear this issue, that they are taking it in and that we will see a change of direction by the Tories on this matter, because I do not think, when it comes to the protection of the ozone layer, that this globe can afford the li p-service environmentalism that we have seen to date from this Government, the Government to the west of us in Saskatchewan, the federal Government we have to live under now. Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speak er. Mr.

Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Deputy Speaker , I am pleased to say a few comments about Bill No. 83, The Ozone Layer Protection Act. During the committee hearings when we were hearing the people who had concerns about this Act, people from the ind ustr y came forward and made some recommendations of how we could come up with some regulations to control the people who were handling the chlorofluorocarbon materials. I think that they made some suggestions that made sense.

I think that the Minister should be meeting very quickly with the people who are involved in the industry and see how they can come up with some way of putting some regulations in so there are not too many fly-by nighters that are doing the work in that field without having the expertise to handle it in a safe way. From their own words, they said that there were some people who were do ing the repair s, wher e the chlo rofluor ocarbon was ju st released into the atmosphere, and after they repaired the equipment then it was refilled again.

I think quite often it is the same thing when you are de aling with automobile air con diti oners. Their chlorofluorocarbons are down and they just refill them without finding out what is causing it to go down. I guess that is one of the areas we should be looking at very seriously. Mr. Deputy Speak er, I think people are becoming more and more convinced that there is a great risk to our health by the depletion of the ozone layer.

I think not only are there increased cases of skin canc1'r, of catara cts and also there is evidence of depressed human immune system because of the effects on the ozone depletion, I think there is also scientific evidence which shows that there is harm to the aquatic systems as well as effects on agricultural crops that are also contributing to the greenhouse effect that is over all of the atmosphere. Mr. Deputy Speak er, I h ad an opportunity to be in Barbados during the Com monwealth Parliamentary Conference, and this is one of the subjects that was raised.

Those people were extremely upset that there was not more money being put into research, because they felt that the third world countries did not make a contribution to this depletion of the ozone layer; it is the industrial world that has caused it. They were being penalized to a much greater degree than we were, and yet they were not in a position to do anything about it. They felt that there should be more dollars going into research to find out ways how we can stop the elim ination of the ozone layer, and I think that they have a point that should be taken into consideration.

They are not industrial ized so they are not making the contribution, outside of some burning of their forest. Many of them are not even doing that; they do not have the forests to burn that is causing that as well. I think we should be taking that into consideration when you are dealing with that issue, because there are environmental studies that show that the ozone layer is depleting. I think that we should be moving on that. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this Bill No. 83 very closely resembles Bill No. 18, which we brought forward dealing with the ozone layer.

I think the Minister brought in some additional fines for people who did not deal with dealing with the offences and penalties, dealing with people who did not follow the Act. I think outside of that it very closely resembles the Bill that I brought forward as a private Member. I want to congratulate the Minister on taking into consideration some of the good works that the NOP Caucus has done and follow the direction that we had brought in place. I think, Mr. Deputy Speak er, without saying too much more, we support this Bill. I think the regulations should be brought forward to deal with the industry.

I think that we should be moving very quickly with some of the regulations. I hope the Minister would take into consideration some of the submissions made during the committee meetings and come forward very quickly with regulations. The people who are involved in that industry have offered to become involved and help. They also have some concerns, because the materials are not as readily available as some people seem to think.

There are materials available to replace the chlorofluorocarbons, but as Dupont and many of those companies are doing a lot of research in that field they still have not come to a point where they can have a material that is adequate to fulfil! the need that will be there, if the chl orofluorocarbons are elim inated completely. I know that when the Montreal Protocol was heid they put a date on as when it should be reducing the use of chlorofluorocarbons to 50 percent. I think that date now should be brought forward. I think many people were expecting that when Lucien Bouchard was made the Minister of Environment.

They thought that 5660

Thursday, March 1, 1990 with his strong words, when he was first appointed, he was going to be following that up with some very strict regulations, but unfortunately he has not followed up with those early words of promise. I think he has fallen down on his respon sibiliti es and not carried through with some of the recommendations that were made. Mr. Deputy Speaker, in May of last year, in 1989, there was a conference held in Helsinki which dealt with chlorofluorocarbons. Many of the countries there were demanding that ozone depleting substances be eliminated by the end of the century.

I think that some of the highly industrial parts of the world were opposed to it. I know one of the countries that did support it was Canada. I think it is necessary that we move with that field and I think follow the direction of some of the world leading environmentalists, who have been putting forward some of their concerns. I think that this Bill is a step in the right direction, but I hope that the Mini ster will very shortly be meeting with the organizations who have offered their assistance to put in some regulations to deal with it.

With those few words, I want to close my comments and just encourage the Minister to get on with putting those regulations in place and getting on with the next step of reducing the number of substances that are being used in our everyday society. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Mini ster of Environment, closing debate. Hon. Glen Cummings (Mini ster of Enviro nment): It is my pleasure to close debate on the ozone Bill, as it is affectionately known around these Chambers.

More than just to talk about the fact that we are going to be moving on di scussion with the in du stry on establishment of regulations and implementation of regulations, I notice that my critics consistently are saying, well, you know you have to get on with these regulations. We are giving you the legislative authority but do not hesitate to get on with the regulations. These Bills were introduced last fall.

They have languished on the Order Paper for quite some time, and it is a little ironic that the critics are now saying, well, now that we have finally made up our mind that we are going to support this legislation, you have to jump through the hoops just as fast as you can get there. I am quite prepared to provide assurance that we will be moving forward with the discussion on regulations leading to implementation on this Bill as well as the waste reduction Bill once it reaches third reading in these Cham bers. *

(1500) One of the comforting aspects of the way this Bill No. 83 has been brought forward to the public and to the industry is that there will be discussion on the regulations. There will be a logical implementation of regulations so that we replace the products as quickly as is reasonable within our society, eliminate and outlaw those products that can be readily treated with such 5661 dispatch, and thereby do our own small part, if you will, in making sure that ozone depleting substances are reduced and eventually eliminated in the Province of Manitoba.

We all have to be aware of the fact that this is a very small part of the overall problem, and we need not think that the hole will close by 1992 as a result of what we have done here. If other jurisdictions move as well, then we will start to see some positive results. Manitoba is 1 percent to 2 percent of the national problem and, nationally, we are I believe 2 percent to 3 percent of the global problem. You can app reciate that we are about one- or two-hundredth, or an even smaller percentage than that, of the global problem.

Therefore, I simply want to say that I think that we and the people of Manitoba are doing their small share and I would commend the Bill to Royal Assent. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 99 THE APPRO PRIATION ACT, 1989 Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Mi nister of Finance (Mr. Manness), Bill No. 99, The Appropriation Act, 1989, (Loi de 1989 portant affectation de credits), the Honourable Member for lnkster has 20 minutes remaining. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Indeed when I was ending off my conversation or my debate the other day regarding Bill No. 99, it was quite obvious that it hit a couple of nerves in this Cham ber, both from the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan), the Member for The Pas (Mr . Harapiak), and maybe a few other Members of the third Party, realizing maybe what they have done themselves during third reading, or I should say regarding the Concurrence Motion on Monday evening. I am sure no doubt that they do have some regrets. Today in Question Period, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) was quick to come to his feet once again regarding the expen ditur es of the Department of Education and allocations that go out to our school divisions throughout the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Min ister of Education said that the school divisions will set their own budgets and their priorities and then submit it to the Department of Education through the Public Schools Finance Board and that the priorities are then looked at and addressed.

We have brought this to the Min ister of Education's attention on several occasions, and we have pointed out to the Minister of Education on those occasions that is not necessarily the case. In fact, if we look at the record of this Government, and this Government has only been in for a couple of years alre ady, it seems like it has been longer, but they have only been in for two years. Mr. Deputy Sp eaker, the Mini ster of Agricultur e (Mr. Findlay) would be surprised on the responses that we get from the Minister of Education. It is somewhat frustrating when you make a statement

Thursday, March 1, 1990 and you know that the statement that you are making is correct and the Minister of Education, even when he is looking at a black and white document, can deny it. It is not the first time this has occurred. I have seen other occasions, and I am going to touch on that other occasion a bit later on in my comments. If we take a look at the priority list that the Department of Educ at ion ha d received regarding schools, in particular in the north end, we had one school that requested as priority No. 1 a Letter of Intent that the Margaret Scott School be replaced.

It was the school division that made that policy decision, and the Minister of Education on numerous occasions stands up and says that it is not he or the department that dictate policy to the school divisions, that in fact it is the school divisions that make policy. Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is not the case. When we take a look at this particular issue of Margar et Scott School, we will find that it was not the School Board that made the policy decision, that in fact it was the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach), through the Public Schools Finance Board, who made a decision on behalf of the school board, and that decision was to shut down that school. The way they were able to do that was by not allowing the funds to flow so that the school can in fact be replaced. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Min ister is saying one thing on one hand; we have the Mini ster saying something else on the other hand, that I would have enjoyed the opportunity to have asked the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach).

Hopefully the Mini ster of Education will stand up, if not on Bill No. 99, at least on Bill No. 10 0, and give his explanation to clarify the obvious conflict that is there, or the obvious contradiction that is there. I would also suggest to the Minister of Education, I understand that he has an Education Finance Advisory Committee, which reviews the current method of funding to the schools throughout the province. I would suggest, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that the Mini ster of Education should be looking very hard at where the funds are actually going to and taking into account what Winnipeg No. 1 and some other more disadvantaged, to a certain degree, school divisions have to put up with. He has to actually , I believe, come out to the north end. I do not believe any Mem bers of this Government have actually been out, have gone out and seen what some of the problems are in the north end of Winnipeg.

The residents of the north end in particula r, and I speak on behalf of my constituents, are very upset with what this Government is doing regarding education. They have said on numerous occasions that it is a No. 1, No. 2, No. 3 priority. It is within the top three priorities, top three in terms of priorities. This Government is not treating it like that * (1510 ) This Government, and particularly the Min ister of Education (Mr. Derkach), has his eyes closed.

He is not looking and searching for solutions to what we believe would make a more fair and equitable educational system throughout the province and in particular in Winnipeg No. 1. We have to take into acco• •pt different programs that are needed in Winniper; or the core area, if you will, of the City of Winnipeg. You will find many of the students, in fact, students that are in your own riding that require to have additional programs in order for them to learn. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I believe you know what I am referring to. We are talking about childr en that go to school with empty stomachs.

I know that because you, yourself have pointed it out to me on numerous occasions where you have seen and heard of children that have to go to school on empty stomachs, and the point that you have put so well that I would like to put, and other Members of my caucus would like to put, is that kids cannot learn on empty stomachs. What is this Government doing, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to ensure that does not happen, that to ensure that if they are going to be addressing the problem that it is addressed in a fair fashion, that the burden, the tax burden, is not going to be on Winnipeg No. 1 property taxpa yers.

That is not taken into account as far as I am concerned. I would have liked the opportunity to ask the Minister of Education (Mr . Derkach) and to have heard what the Min ister of Education had to answer, but the third Party in this Chamber assisted in denying that opportunity. I find that unfortunate, even though they might not have any questions, they might not be concerned about the north end residents in the City of Winnipeg or, in fact, any of the residents of the Province of Manitoba. We in the official Opposition are concerned, and it is not just education, it is the health care system.

The list can go on, issues that I would have liked to have been able to address. Hoping now, because there are other avenues that through debate, the Ministers, in which myself and my colleagues raise points on, will add ress or at least suppl y us with answers. If they do not want to speak on the Bill itself, they can supply the answers through memos, through letters, or find other means to give us the answers that we are seeking. I did want to also comment on housing. I had several concerns about housing and the direction that this Government seems to be taking.

Housing and the development of housing, whether it is for the poor , whether it is for the more well off, the middle class, whatever it might be, and I believe it is the wrong direction. I believe we are going more or catering more to the people that can take care of themselves. We have to start putting more concentration and more effort on those people that need our assistance. I am referring to housing programs such as the Infill Housing program, a good program. The Minister of Housing (Mr . Ducharme) himself, 18 months ago in the Estimates process, had said that it was, in fact, a good program. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, action speaks louder than words. Ho w ma ny infill hous es have been constructed? We are now completing two fiscal years for Government expenditures. Unless there has been some that have come up very recently, I do not believe any infill houses have been constructed. I am sure if there has been, the Min ister ol Housing will be more than happy to let me know about it. Other concerns regarding housing-we have MHRC which owns, or we have land banks through the Province of Manitoba. I am interested in what the Government is doing with those land banks. We found that in south 5662

Thursday, March 1, 1990 St. Boniface, we had a joint deal with Ladco. I think I have debated that quite extensively, and the Minister of Housing and I have come to a mutual agreement that we are never going to be able to agree in terms of if that was a good or bad deal because we are on opposite ends regarding that. There are other potential developments that can be occurring. I would be interested in knowing if the area in my own riding, Mead ows West, if there have been any proposals submitted to the Meadows West Phase 2 development.

I would be interested in knowing on other land bankings throughout the province. Has there been any ind ica tion? What are the Gover nment's intentions? Do they want to sell off a certain percentage of the land bank? What would they like to do? How would they like to proceed to find out Government policy? Mr. Deputy Speaker, this would have been an excellent opportun ity, and I would admit that the best place to have put forward these questions would have been in concurrence. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it was not because of a lack of interest, I had questions that I did want to put forward.

I believe and I know that the third Party in this Chamber had no questions to put forward because they were quite content, they enjoyed what was going on. The following day they felt it was good to snicker and say, oh, we got you, we got you good. They did not get us, they shafted all Manitob ans in this province. They denied Manitobans the opportunity to find out what this Government's agenda really is. The Government has brought forward a budget which is referred to as Phase 1. We have seen in a fundraising letter sent out by this Government, Phase 2. We want to know what Phase 2 is.

I think concu rrence would have been a go od opportunity to find out what Phase 2 is. Obviously the third Party in this Chamber did not care, they did not feel threatened by any Phase 2, but we are quickly getting the feeling that they were working closer and closer in hand. I find it very hard to believe how a Party of that nature can abandon their principl es and work with the Go vernm ent in such a ma nner to de ny Man itobans the answers to many, many questions that I would have liked to put forward. This Bill, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, deals with the expenditures of the Government and I have many concerns regarding it. We can go on to Government Services. I had a constituent who gave me a call and was concerned about Government cars and why they all would not have stickers or some type of identification on them so that the public can tell if it is a Government vehicle. There are concerns and questions that one can pursue and try and find out the rationale to why in some cases there is not identification on some Government vehicles. What concerns me most about this particular budget is the status of our health care system.

I am concerned that when we see the line-ups that we have at the St. Boniface. All hospitals in the province have some problems, some more than others. One of the problems that concerns me a great deal are the line-ups that we have seen in the hospitals, in the corridors, people with injuries that need to be attended to in a much faster fashion and that are not being dealt with so that 5663 Manito bans can have a good health care system. We have a serious problem in health care. We have a federal Government that has now stopped transfers, or is lim iting transfer payments, monies comin g to the province.

That is going to have an effect, a major impact on the province. An Honourable Member: That is the Tories, is it not cousins? Mr. Lamoureux: That is the Tory cousins, that is right. I know the provincial Tories would like to divorce their federal cousins, but the bottom li ne, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is a Tory is a Tory is a Tory. It would be interesting to see what this Government's actions is going to be regarding health care, where they are going to be making up the money.

This budget that we have before us is going to have to dramatically change in order to make up what the Tories are doing in Ottawa to the provincial Tories here in the Province of Manitoba. We are going to be seeking assurances- An Honou rable Member: You can count on us. Mr. Lamoureux: The Min ister of Natural Resources (Mr . Enns) says we can count on him. I am not too sure. I have not been impressed because this is the same budget that has created that Tory slush fund, the same Min ister that supports that Tory slush fund. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I do not think I can trust this Government, especially when I see a fundraising letter sponsored by the Conservative Party saying, we need a majority. You know why we need a majority? It is because we need Phase 2. We want to implement Phase 2. * (15 20) Mr. Deputy Speak er, what is Phase 2? The Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) brings out a good point. What was Phase 1? That is a good question-what was Phase 1? I think if we could ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) that, it would be interesting to see what his answer might be.

I am wondering if he would comment on the fiscal stabilization fund, on the slush fund? I am concerned about Phase 2, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that right wing, Tory hidden agenda. That is what Phase 2 is all about.

Members can trust that I myself would like to pursue what Phase 2 is all about to ensure that all Manitobans know what Phase 2 is all about, to ensure that all Manitobans know what the third Party in this Chamber has been all about since they have entered as a third Party in this Chamber, to ensure that all Manitobans know that the official Opposition is here and is pursuing wherever and using whatever means is possible to ensure that their interests are taken into account. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I see I have only one minute left. No doubt if the Member for Churchill (Mr.

Cowan) and everyone wants to grant me leave, maybe I will not have to speak on Bill 100. Failing leave, I would be more than happy to speak. The Member for Churchill says, take my time. Is there leave to grant me? The

- Thursday, March 1, 1990 Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness) says, no leave. I find that unfortunate, but typically his style. No doubt, Mr. Deputy Speak er, I will be able to continue my speech on Bill 10 0 which also add resses the budget. This budget is something that does need to be looked at as very serious, and not treated in a light manner, which some- Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member's time has expired. Mr. Lamoureux: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mrs.

Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): I am glad to have an opportun ity to stand in the House in light of the fact that the opportunity was denied to ask many questions that I had remaining following the Estimates process. The unfortunate situation where we had limited time to ask questions and even more unfortunate situation where I think if we were to review Hansard during the Estimates process, the lengthy responses that were given from the Minister denied us the opportun ity to ask more questions, as well as a very irrelevant portion of presentation in questioning by the Min ister of Rural Devel op ment (Mr .

Penner) du ring the pr ocess of Education Estimates. When we are told that no, you did not organize your time properly, that we could certainly look, and the record is there to indicate that in fact despite attempts to organize the time, the responses were lengthy and often rather irrelevant to the method of questioning. When there is a three-Party system as we are faced with today, although that will not I do not think occur the next time, because I think we will probably be down to very close to the two-Party system after the next provincial election.

I think there are many people in Manitoba who would welcome that as well. When you are faced with a three-Party system, unf ortuna tely you have the jockeying for positio n concept and it does interfere with the actual process I think in many respects. I think we do deny the people of Manitoba the more effective type of governing that they so much deserve. My colleague the Member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) alluded to the Winnipeg School Division No. 1 situation.

I too would like to refer to the very unique, very special situation in which the students, parents, teachers and people of the Winnipeg School Division No. 1 find themselves. When you look and see that this particular school division has the largest percentage of Native children in Manitoba att endin g scho ol-I think ther e is something like 42 percent of all Manitoba Nativ es living in fact in the Winnipeg School Division No. 1. The third Party would like to make us think that they are all up north, but they are not. (Mr .

Neil Gaud ry, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) The case is that they are located for the most part here in the Winnipeg No. 1 area; the largest percentage of ethnic groups are located in the Winnipeg School Division No. 1. The largest percentage of unemployed people live in the area of Winnipeg School Division No. 1. The largest percentage of single parent families live where? You are right, in Winnipeg School Division No. 1. The largest percentage of low income families live, you guessed it again, in the Winnipeg School Division No. 1.

The largest percentage of rental units are found within the boundaries of the Winnipeg School Division No. 1. Therefore, the population is more transient, you have the largest percentage of special-needs students. There are very unique situations in Winnipeg No. 1. In a recent survey of school teachers in that particular area, of those who responded, 52 percent of all Grades 1 to 6 Winnipeg No. 1 teachers believe that there is inadequate funding in that particular school division allo tted to that school division for the teaching of nutrition.

When I look too, if I can find it, the mayor has proclaimed that March 1 to 7, 19 90, will be Nutrition Week. I think that is an admirable proclamation. Then I hear that in one of the core area schools, John M. King School, which I often drive by because I drop my son off at the downtown campus in the morning and come down Ellic e on my way to the building with the dome, and I see these young children parading across the street and hear that of these childr en, 13 0 of them, often attend a breakfast program. They go to school and they are handed milk, and this morning it was peanut butter sandwiches.

Other days they have porridge. A variety of breakfasts are given to these childr en. Some of these teachers have said, you know, these children are hungry. Some of them have not even had supper the night before. I know that you can argue, is it really the place for the education system to be feeding these children breakfast? I say, no. I do not really believe that the budget should be entirely out of the education budget. That does not seem fair.

I think there has to be a closer liaison between the Department of Family Services, the Department of Health, the Department of Education, a far closer mechanism so when we believe that it is true, and it certainly is true, that a hungry child can not be well educated because he is so busy thinking about his hunger. How on earth can you have a teacher trying to assist that child to learn, assist that child to gain the skills that are necessary for him or her to manage in the big world out .there when they are so terribly hungry? There has to be a closer liaison.

The Government has missed the boat I believe in addressing the particular needs. * (15 30) When I look at Winnipeg Free Press today the cartoon that talks about what happens when a budget cuts back equalization payments and affects funding for education, and the federal Minister of Finance is sitting there with a dunce cap on holding the budget book upside-down and saying, read my lips. That is supposed to be funny, but unfortunately, Mr. Acting Speaker, it does not really tickle my funny bone. I think it is a very sad, sad statement of fact, a pictorial statement of what we may see.

Certainly the Minister of Finance may be wearing a dunce cap and so may many, many other very deserving people in Manitoba. 5664

Thursday, March 1, 1990 Just this morning I attended an opening of a very fine office just east of my own constituency for a group known as PE RC, Parents for Educ ational Rights Coalition and this group has been working for some time because they are very concerned about the lack of educational opportun ity for a lot of children in Manitoba.

When I listen to some of the people who were ther e and th ey decry the concern that the educational needs of so many of the students in Manitoba are not met, that Manitoba is maybe not at the bottom of the barrel but very close to it, that we really should look at a lot of the problems in education that we are missing the boat on. I think in special needs child ren and the fact that we all may have heard of some of the parents who have moved from the province because they feel that their children are not receiving the special needs educations that they should get.

One of the individuals who was there, a very fine lady by the name of Constance Waters who, although she is now classified as a senior citizen, is working on her Masters in English. She is an individual who really does portray, from my perspective, the lifelong learn ing. She personifies lifelong learning, because that lady has never, ever stopped actively pursuing education-a fine person.

When she said, you know, it is a real crime, because the Faculty of Education still does not have the manda tory special needs component in their curriculum, I told her that I had spoken with Dean Stapleton, the Dean of the Faculty of Education at the University of Manitoba, and was assured that they were trying very hard to introduce and to be sure that each student received some education in the special needs component, because all teachers must be able, if nothing else, to identify those students that need special needs education.

I can recall from my days as a post-secondary education educator with the licenced practical nurses that one of the things I felt very strongly about was that an LPN must know, must be able to identify that there is a problem. They did not necessarily have to know what to do about the problem, but if they are caring for a patient and they cannot realize, they do not know what the normal is so they cannot recognize the abnormal, that patients in Manitoba would be in big trouble.

I think the same thing is true for a teacher if they know what is normal, so that they can recognize what is abnormal and what will need to be treated. Maybe that teacher will say to himself or herself I am not capable of actually providing the teaching and the remedial work for this child, but I know that they need help, and I as a teacher know where to go to seek the help for this child. Then we have acc ompli she d something. I think we are missing the boat with some of these young people in our province. (Mr.

Deputy Speaker in the Chair) The war on ill iteracy-and there have been big, big bucks in this province to help fight this particular war that we all know is out there, but again I think we are missing the boat, Mr. Deputy Speaker . The dollar is not the only thing. The Government, the Tory side of the House thumps the table, talks, yells and screams about how the NDP squandered money. There is no doubt 5665 in my mind that statement is true and that there was an awful lot of squandering.

The examples are all over this province of how over the past NDP terms we have been pla ced more and more into debt, but you know, when we are sitting on the other side of the House in the next few years, I believe we are going to be able to say the same thing. Look at how the Tories have squandered money. Look at how the Tories have placed bucks into fighting ill iteracy. What do we have, Mr. Deputy Speaker? We have high school students- ***** Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Min ister of Education, on a point of order. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): A point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

If the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) could possibly clarify her position, because just moments ago she advocated that we spend more money in Winnipeg No. 1, now she is saying we are spending too much money. I would like to know what position she really is taking. Mr. Deputy Speaker: A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. ***** Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek has the floor. Mrs. Yeo: The Minister of Education, obviously we have really struck a sore point and a nerve because he is becoming terribly defensive.

He knows full well that at that point I was referring to the th ousands and thousands and thousands of dollars that have been poured into a pot marked "ill iteracy" but nobody quite knows what to do with the pot full of the thousands of dollars. They believe they have all kinds of marvellous ideas, but what are they having? They have high school students, potential high school gradua tes, who are dropping out of school because what they believe is that their part-time jobs are the most important thing for them. What is the point of going on and becoming educated adults? Who gives a darn? -(interjection)- Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Order. Mrs. Yeo: We have libr aries, as the Mem ber for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) is pointing out, libraries in the city that now have For Sale signs up on them because the doors have been shut and the books have been dumped on the floor and taken out of those particular buildings. There are all kinds of things that could be done and I certainly do not say that the bucks should not be used for illit eracy. I think there should be far better management and organization so that the dollars are well utilized and not utilized the way they have been.

There are a lot of problems with people in Manitoba-

Thursday, March 1, 1990 ***** Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Mini ster of Education, on a point of order. Mr. Derkach: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is obvious that the Member has not looked at the list of programs that are being del ivered in the province for illit eracy. I would certain be more than prepared to mail her a copy of the list so she could be more informed when she stands up in the House to make her address. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I thank the Honourable Mi nister for that advice. ***** Mr. Lamoureux: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member for lnks ter, on a point of ord er. Mr. Lamoureux: On two occasions the Min ister of Education (Mr. Derkach) has stood up on points of order knowing full well that they are not points of order. I would appreciate if he would stay in his seat and listen to the enlightening words. He might learn somet hing. An Honourable Member: That is sure not a point of order. Mr. Lamoureux: That is a point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. ***** Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek has the flo or. Mrs.

Yeo: I want to assure my honourable colleague across the floor that I have read with interest the list of those pla ces that have received grants. I have also found that some of those pl aces do not even exist yet, that there are some of those places that have no phone numbers and no building, but oh they will have. Yet they are down on that list having received grants. If the Minister wishes me to enligh ten him somewhat I can share the list with him and share those places.

I would give him some phone numbers and say, try and phone and see if you can find them because in fact there are some of those pla ces that should receive the grants that do not exist. * (1 540) I would like to go to the Speech from the Throne from May 18 and look at some of the promises that were made. The Government promises a White Paper tha t would be circula ted ; that certainly sou nds interesting. That will help the education system be more accessible and more flexible.

I believe yesterday the Minister made some statement about The Pas and how we are going to make The Pas-get The Pas students at the level of the other students, which indicates to me that he is saying that the people in The Pas are receiving inferior education if he has to build them up so that they will become, their education system will become, more in tune with what is received in the urban area.

When the Lieutenant-Governor read the Speech from the Throne and there were statements about state-of the-art distance technologies, et cetera-and it was at that very time that the MCALC was closed down although I believe it is operating now, but the consortium run by the Government was closed -t here was an ideal opportunity perhaps to utilize the program that was in place and to enhance some of the program, some of the Canadian content programs that were in place, and we missed the boat there.

The Skills Training Advisory Committee, we are still waiting for the respons es from th at particular committee, but I am glad it was put into place. There were a lot of things that were mentioned in the throne speech and I think the White Paper on education is probably the one that we will be watching for very soon. A while ago there was a release on radon action and the testing for radon, and I would hope that when it comes to the school systems that the schools will also have some radon testing.

There have been some reports that indicate perhaps some problems with the levels of radon and I think that the air quality in the schools should be of prime importance. There were a lot of questions that I had hoped that I would be able to ask and unfortunately the concurrence debate did not take place. The other concern that has come across my desk, and I know it has come across the Mini ster of Education's (Mr.

Derkach) desk with great frequency, particularly since the announcement by the federal Go vernment, is the impa ct of the 3 percent administration fee which will be applied to all student loans starting in August of 19 91.

If in fact we believe that the student of today will be the future citizen for tomorrow-I mean that is a fact-if we believe that we, as cer tainly the leg isla tors and the key communicators, et cetera in this province, should be encouraging our young people to continue throughout their school years to become high school gradu ates and then to go on to community colleges or universities around our province, in fact, around our country. If we believe that, should we not be doing more to assist th ose young people to attain these en han ced educational opportunit ies?

Various people are saying they are putting a floor at $6,000-earning for students, and there are not very many students who make more than $6,000.00. It is very difficult for a young person to try and go to university and get a summer job that will pay them a substantial amount. My own childr en are delighted to get somewhere in the neighbourhood of $3,000 or $4,000 over the summ er.

If they in fact want to take some courses at intersession when they are going to university, or take a course or two at summer school to assist them in either speeding up their degree or lightening the load somewhat, because some of these 5666

Thursday , March 1, 1990 students have a very, very heavy load. I would hate to have to be in their shoes. That then takes away from their opportunities to find employment that will put them up at a decent level. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) At the same time as the federal Government is saying, we are going to pull back on funding for post-secondary education to the provinces. they can do their own thing and we will just move out of that or cut way back at the same time, very likely tuition fees will have to go up. So the students are caught in the middle.

They are really stuck in a real bind when it comes to the rebates on loans that they are hoping to get. Students from the Red River Community College Student Association, students from the University of Manitoba Student Association and students from Brandon College have all said, what are we going to do. We need help. What are the proposals? What innovations will this Government put forward to assist us? It is a real crime.

It is a real slap in the face I think to young students who are looking for encouragement in this day and age, who may say, what good does a university or a community college degree do me, because the jobs are not out there anyway so I might as well quit school and to heck with finishing high school. I might as well just leave school and not worry about plugging away and all the problems that are associated with university education.

I also had hoped that I would get a chance to ask the Min ister a little more on affirmative action, the affirmative action policies within his own department, on the decentral ization. I was curious to know to what extent the department is decentralized. What are the plans for decentral ization? What kind of assistance is there going to be? What sort of decision-making will be used to decide which areas decentralize? What would the cost saving or the cost be?

What kind of a staff would be needed in the various locations for different spots, what supervisory versus clerical, et cetera, what opportunities for women, for minority groups. I also wanted to touch base a little more strongly on the cradle -to-grave idea of education, because I do believe that education is a lifelong process, that those people who are actively seeking opportunitie s in education throughout their lives-various ki nds of education, it does not always have to be the more formal types of education-t hese are usually when we will find the people who are happier.

I believe people who are learning forever and people who are contributing and are doing things for other people all their lives are the ones who do have more satisfying types of lives. I think it is up to us to try and enhance the opportunities so that they are available. What are we doing?

Well, if an adult wishes to return to school and take upgrade to maybe complete their high school that they had not been able to complete as in the normal process going from Grade 10 to 11 to 12- maybe something stopped them, as in the case of my father who had to leave school in the beginning of Grade 9 because he had three younger brothers that he was responsible for. He left school for four years, but he was able to go back and complete his high school, and then on to university and complete university. There are people today who have the same problems.

If these adults, at the age of 25, 30, 40, 50 want desperately, it has been a void in their lives-and you will talk to people who will say, you know, one of my biggest concerns is that I have never completed high school, so they want to go back to school. If they go back during the day, the school can claim them. They can in fact be included in the enrollment of that particular school. It does not cost the individual, the adult, anything other than time and the opportunity to work during the day, anyway.

If, on the other hand, they have a day job and they want to go back in the evening, No. 1, it is often very difficult for them to find Biology 200 or Chemistry 301, or whatever they want to take as an evening school course, certainly at the local high school, but will also cost them. There is a cost factor there, and I am wondering if that really is fair to the people in our province.

I know that we could be accused of, there the Liberals go again-spend, spend, spend, but I would say there is perhaps some method that could be used to make this fairer. * (1 550) In the Scratc hing River Post, which I read when it comes across my desk every week, and I enjoy it one of the best community newspapers, I think, that we find on our desks in the province. The one in which the Member for Morris (Mr . Manness) was stated as saying that he was just waiting for the April-Ma y election to occur.

In this same Scratching River Post, this one from July of 19 89, the headline is that adult education course enrollment is on the increase. In fact, that is true throughout the province, not just in the area of the circulation of the Scratching River Post. That is true, and I think that is very admirable. I think it is an area that we could be looking at with greater fervor and increasing and enhancing our attention to the various needs for adult learners. There are a lot of ways in which this could be done.

The distance education, although I would have to say I am pleased with some of the aspects of the distance education, there still are training inequalities-urban versus remote areas. I do not mean The Pas necessarily. I mean even more remote areas than The Pas, because The Pas is a good city. The distance education can be enhanced by utilizing the technologies that we have today to a much greater extent. I think there is still some fear, some people who withdraw when they see computers and they see the video machines. They are a little intimidated by the machinery that is around.

A lot of people are also intimidated by the Tory machinery, but that is beside the point. I think we have to realize too, and it was something that is taught in the adult education certificate course, that adult learners learn differently than young people learn. The approa ches have to be different. One cannot just take the way that a teacher teaches a child and 5667

Thursday, March 1, 1990 then transfer that to a person who is a little larger, sitting perhaps in a bigger desk, because adults learn at a different rate and different methods can be utilized. One thing I found as an adult educator was that when you have an adult sitting at a desk, they are usually there because they choose to be there. They are not there because morn or dad says that they have to go to school because they went to Grade 4 last year and hopefully they will go to Grade 5 this year. That is probably a poor example because the Grades 4 and 5 are still fairly enthusiastic.

By the time they hit Grades 8 and 9 their enthusiasm is waning and there may have to be a bit of a push and a shove out the door to get some of the students to go, certainly not the case with the fine young people we have as Pages in our building, but with some of the students that I have spoken with. We have to enhance the programs that are available for adult educators so that they may in fact pick up on the different methodology that is so important for teaching adults.

We are hearing more and more, and I think it is really very unfortunate, that industries are saying, we are finding that we have to have cla ssrooms available to teach some of our workers, because there is an increase in ill iteracy because the school system in Manitoba has not fulfilled its obli gation and in fact its statement of philosophy and belief and objectives. Falconbridge, Dofasco and some of the other areas are saying, we have to do some of our own teaching. I certainly like the idea of having co-operation between the world of education and the world of business. I think that is a good thing.

I do not want the world of business to be the place where all remedial work is done. I do not think there should be such a need for remedial work. I would like to see better work done in our public and independent schools throughout the province so that when our young people go on to post-secondary education or go on to the world of work that the people who are employing them do not find that they have to re-educate them on the basics.

There are some of these areas where they are finding that young people have not been given the appreciation for nutrition, which I mentioned earlier, the appreciation for more active lifestyles, the need for some sort of daily routine more than sitting at a desk or a bench. Getting up from the desk or bench and walking a few feet to a car and then walking a few feet from the car to the chesterfield creates, I believe, earlier deaths for younger people. I think that is something that the education system could be demonstrating.

It is unfortunate that there are people who go to work for Great-West Life who say, you know, I never thought about some sort of daily activity like that. Perhaps it depends on the home situation as well, and it depends on whether they see morn or pop sitting in front of the TV and that is all the exercise they get is in pressing the remote button and changing the chann

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-136
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 136.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b20c916fb7b474f23f76234cbd0009fcfb1344ef

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