Volume XL Tuesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Third Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas • Number 53 2 June 1987

The House met at 3:00p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Before calling Statements By Ministers, I have great pleasure in welcoming to the galleries Mr. Trevor Bennett, a former member for St. Barbe. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Fogo . MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young). Yesterday the minister tried to hide behind the fact that there is an investigation into certain things going on in the Pippy Park Commission for his own lack of action.

We learned from the minister yesterday that he does not have the commission • s report, as he ts required to by the laws of this land, the report of the Pippy Park Commission for 198~-86. Mr. Speaker, by law, I say to the minster, under a certain

section of The Pippy Park Commission Act, he was required to have it in his hands and if it was not there he had the obligation to ask for it. I ask the minister again if he would table a copy of his enquiries into the Pippy Park Commission? He said yesterday that they did not submit their report and he had made enquiries. Would he table a copy of the enquiries that he as ked for when he asked for that report? Will he then table the commission's answer to his enquiries as to why they L2803 June 2, 1987 Vol XL have not presented him with the report that they were supposed to present? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG : Mr. Speaker, I am sure if the hon. member would look at Hansard I did not say that I had written. I said I had enquired as to why thE ! report was not tabled, and that is my answer. I cannot table something I do not have, like I cannot table that 1985-86 report that I do not have. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker I let me ask the hon . gentleman, then I when did this enquiry take place? It is now six months late and that report has not yet beeln tabled in this Legislature.

We know there are problems with the Pippy Park Commission. MR. FUREY : The 'Pickled' Park Commission . MR. TULK: Yes, it is almost the 'Pickled' Park Commission. MR. BAIRD : You are picking it apart . MR. TULK: We know that there are problems with the Pippy Park Commission . When did the minister enquire? What was the nature of his enquiry? Would he also tell this Legislature, if it was by word of mouth that he enquired, just who No. 53 R2803

was it that he talked was the answer of the gentleman that he question of as to why tabled the report? MR. SPEAKER: to and what lady or the asked the they had not The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR.' YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, as I told the hon. member yesterday, this is under a police investigation and an investigation by the Auditor General. Mr. Speaker, I will have no further comment as to the details of the investigation. MR. TULK: A final supplementary . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . the member for Fogo . MR. TULK : Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman cannot hide behind an investigation. I say to him, he cannot hide behind an investigation, he cannot hide behind the words •no comment• in this Legislature for not carrying out a duty that is his to carry out. It has nothing to do with an investigation that is going on . We have not asked what are the results of an investigation. We have not as ked any of those questions. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let another question. MR. PATTERSON: Have you put your i:enders? L2804 June 2, 1987 me ask him leader up on Vol XL MR.

TULK: Now would there be attacked Province remaining are left. be quiet. the old terrorist over quiet, because he has everything else in the now except the few Liberals that he says So I would ask him to MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon . g e n t 1 e rna n t hi s que s t ion . The r e are several other members of that commission besides the chairman.

Would the minister tell this Legislature just · why j..t was that the others members who are lj.sted here as members of that commission, in the annual report for 1984 - 1985, the one that is behind, did not push whOE!Ver was responsible for seeing_ this report put before them, and what . disciplinary action, if any, :is he taking on those other members? Is he dismissing them for not carrying out their dutiE!S, or is the minister trying to keep some adverse publicity from hitting thE! government of which he is a part and to which he has be!en a continual embarrassment for the last two years? MR.

PEACH : You got rid of your leader pretty quick. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Pub1ic Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, to the hon . membe!r • s last remark, I think the hon. member is an embarrassment to the Liberal Party with his actions in the House this afternoon. Mr. Speaker, I am not responsiblE! No. 53 R2804

.~: whatsoever for the Pippy Park Commission 1 s actions. They are made up, Mr. Speaker, of a person appointed by the city of St. John 1 s, a person appointed by the Pippy family, two people appointed at large by the Cabinet, and there are some more representatives here. There are seven or eight people, Mr. Speaker. The only person who is responsible to me, Mr. Speaker, is the Chairman of thE! Pippy Park Commission. When I found out what irregularities were going on there, Mr. Speaker, I took action within three hours. When everything is concluded, Mr. Speaker, I will gladly give it to the public.

I have no further comment. MR. TULK : Where is the 1985 - 1986 report? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I cannot table a report until it is presented to me. When the Auditor General puts his signature on that document I will table it in the House of Assembly. MR. TULK : It is your duty to get it . MR. PATTERSON: Do not be so foolish . MR. KELLAND: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: · The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Mr . Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services .

I wo u 1 d as k the minister what kind of an rein or does he maintain any kind of a rein on the Pippy Park Commission in any form whatsoever? He said L2805 June 2, 1987 Vol XL in this House yesterday that it is an autonomous body, but it is not an autonomous body. It is governed by statute. It has a statutory obligation to fi1e a report at a predetermined time. Some of the members of at the Commission are appointed by the minister. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. KELLAND: I have already asked the question on the first of it.

So I would like to ask the minister what kind of controls he has and what kinds of lines of communicat -ion does he have with the Commission? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Public . Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday, the Pippy Park Commission is an autonomous body, and I am answerable to the House of Assembly and the Chairman of the Pippy ·Park Commission · is answerable to me. MR. TULK : And they are supposed to report to you? MR. YOUNG: · No, Mr. Speaker. control over the Commission. MR. TULK: I have no Pippy Park On a point of order, Mr. Speaker .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. YOUNG: No. 53 R2805

I still Speaker. go ahead. have the floor, A point of order? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Oh, the The hon. gentleman is either intentionally or unintentionally misleading this House. If he reads the legislation known as The Pippy Park Commission Act, he will see that under statute the Pippy Park Commission is supposed to report to him not later than the 31st of December. So how can he say that it is an autonomous body? Stand up and apologize to the Legislature. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Government House Mr. Speaker, there is no point of order. There is obviously a difference of opinion with respect to a person1s responsibility and

interpretation of a statute, but it is not a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: I must ruJ.e there is no point of order. · The hon. the member for Nas kaupi, a s upplE!mentary. MR. KELLAND: I would like to redirect a supplementary to the Minister of Public Workers and Services and ask him how he could approve the budget of the Pippy Park Commission last year when he was L2806 June 2, 1987 Vol XL not in receipt of their report? In fact, the 1984-1985 report was not received until April of Hii-s year, I believe.

How can he continue to slack on his obligations as the minister responsible to whom the Pippy Park Commission must reportJ How can he continually do that and not enforce his ministerial role there? MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. SpeakE!r, I do not approVE! thE! budget of the Pippy Park Commission, the Cabinet approves the budget of the Pippy Park Commission. When they submitted their budget for rne ~Lo-submi l: to Cabinet, Mr. Speaker, there was a. financial statement there. But, Mr.

Speaker, I haVE! nothing to do with the tabling of the r•?.port in the House of Assembly until it is approved by the Auditor General. MR. TULK: Read this. MR. YOUNG: Never mind, Speaker. That is what I have MR. EFFORD: -1Read this,1 Mr. is my duty and that done. ' He would have to get somebody to read it for hirn. MR. YOUNG: Is that so? MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Naskaupi. No. 53 R2806

MR . KELLAND : I would like to ask what it is about this minister that everything that I have witnessed that he touches becomes besmirched? What is it? Why is he still allowed to remain in Cabinet? Why is he allowed to remain in Cabinet? MR . OTTENHEIMER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader. MR . OTTENHEIMER: Mr . Speaker, I think it well known that questions are with respect to public policy and areas for which the minister is responsible.

Your Honour will find in Beauchesne and elsewhere that references which are personally insulting are unparliamentary, are out of order. MR. KELLAND: There was nothing personal in that . MR. OTTENHEIMER: Personally insulting matters like that are really out of order. MR. SPEAKER : To that point of order, thE! hon. member is now as king a final supplementary and I would ask him to direct the final supplementary. MR. KELLAND : I ask, Mr . Speaker, why is he permitted to stay in Cabinet unless his colleagues in Cabinet are part and parcel of any wrongdoing he has ever admitted in this House or in public?

I ask the minister what is he trying to hide this time? What is it? MR . SPEAKER: L2807 June 2, 1987 Uol XL The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I have not been trying to hide anything this U.me' or any other time. When the Auditor General brought it to my attention I acted within three hours, Mr . Speaker I and it is under police investigation. When it is completed I will give the hon. House of Assembly the information, Mr . Speaker, and I have no further comment. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Bona vista North. ~ MR. LUSH : I have a question for the Minister of Public Works, Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister how he could in all honesty and with a degree of propriety approve two budgets, last year and this year I for the Pippy Park Commission when he had not received reports for two years? Was this not a sign, a signal that something was going wrong with the Pippy Park Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG : Mr.

Speaker, the budge!t was approved with the approval of Cabinet because of the financial statement that was submitted by the Pippy Park Commission. Mr . Speaker, all the report is done by the Auditor Gene!ral, and when the' Auditor General signs his report No. 53 R2807

and it is presented to me, I table it in the House of Assembly. It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that the press had to pick up and act on behalf of the Opposition, because last time when I tabled the 1984--8 5 report, they never asked a question about it then, Mr. Speaker. The press have to find out that the report I tabled was over a year old. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Bonavista North, a supplementary. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I remind the minister that on several occasions over the last couple of years we have alerted the minister to problems with the Pippy Park Commission.

We have done it over the last couple of years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Now, I ask the minister this, why did he not act on the basis of these enquiries then? Why did he not act and possibly prevent this problem that we are now having from developing? I ask the minister -Mr. Old Vel era Lips why he did not act on the enquiries that we made at that time? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker,_ gentleman had the estimate not see any Speaker, I I wish the han. brought that up in comrni ttee but I did of them there.

Mr. have no further L2808 June 2, 198'7 Vol XL comment. John was there about his brother•s building. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. the han. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to Velcro Lips. Is it: not possiblE! that thE! current legal difficulties involving the Pippy Park Commission might have been forestalled, might have been prevented, if thE! minister was acting in a responsible dnd competent manner? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Ministe~ of Public: Works. MR. YOUNG: No further comment, Mr.

Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Mount Scio-Bell Island. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Public Works said, as though it were a rna t ter for which he should be acclaimed, that it was only when the press brought it up that members of this House became aware that the Pippy Park Commission had not tabJ.ed its report. I ask thE! minister, is he aware that

Section 20 of The Pippy Park Act rE!qUirE!S the minister to table in this House, within fifteen days, a copy of that report, and did the minister give any thought to No. 53 R2808

gJ.VJ.ng any explanation as to when that was not done? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Yes and no, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary question, the hon. the member for Mount Scio-Bell Island. MR. BARRY: Let me ask the minister , does he believe that he is bound by The Pippy Park Act? What does he intend to do about the fact that he is in breach of the law of this House and of this Province,

Section 20 of The Pippy Park Act, which he has not complied with? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG : No comment, Mr. Speaker. I to 1 d you I wo u 1 d be in p o 1 i t i c s longer than you. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . the member for Fogo. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I think the minister indicated that there was some sort of threat, that I should not ask him another question. Is that it? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! L2809 June 2, 1987 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: Order, please ! MR.

BARRY : Well, then, let us try this one for the minister . MR. OTTENHEIMER : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the Government House Leader. MR. OTTENHEIMER: hon . I just want to point out that the hon . the Minister of Public Works would not threaten anybody . If the hon. gentleman was . tl1reatene!d, it was by hon. members on that side, not on this side. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. . A final supplementary, the hon . the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island. MR. BARRY : I would like to of Public Works, fact - MR .

PATTERSON: ask the Mintster in light of lhe How much did you pay for Wells? Tell us that. MR. MORGAN: How much did he get paid to drop out is a more important question . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. BARRY: I still have my files complete, Mr. Speaker. MR. CALLAN: At least he dropped out, but you No . 53 R2809

were forced out. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Shqw us the files on the Ocean Ranger MR. FUREY: You wi 11 not get b a c k i n cab i net that way, Jim. MR. BARRY: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the hon. member in the back there who is continuously interrupting to please keep quiet when a question is being answered. MR. CALLAN: Yes, the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan). MR. BARRY: I will do soon as I Mill file. that, Mr. Speaker, as get the United Cotton Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Public Works, in light of the fact - MR.

MORGAN: $200,000 to drop leadership race. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: out of the Now maybe the member can be bought for $200,000, Mr. Speaker. Now we have seen his idea of what he is worth. L2810 June 2, 1987 Vol XL MR. MORGAN : You back up that one now. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would likE! to ask the Minister of Public Works - MR. MORGAN: You cannot, can you? It is true. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, are you going to name him? MR. BARRY: I think in Speaker, the would be goon . MR. MORGAN: hockey garn(~S, Mr. name to be applied Is that correct? Now I am hitting bOnE!. member backed out. The han . MR.

SPEAKER : Order, please! ,. . I am again asking the han. me!rnbe!r on the backbench there to plt::!ase give the hon. member an opportunity to ask his question. Otherwise I will have to name him. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I think there might be something to this line of questioning. In light of what is happening over· on that side, I think there might be something . MR. PEACH: Now, Tripper. MR. PATTERSON : Now, Mr. Furley . MR.

BARRY: Now, let me ask the minister, in light of the fact that we have a budget before this House requiring that this House appropr'iate a certain number of dollars for the Pippy Park Commission, can the Minister of Public Works te!ll us No. 53 R2810

wh.e..t.b.er he is fully aware of the financial affairs of the Pippy Park Commission to the extent that he can say that that money which he is asking this House to appropriate is fully needed by the Pippy Park Commission or whether it is sufficient for the needs of that commission? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: No comment, Mr. Speaker. When the investigation is completed I will be able to give the hon. member the information he is looking for. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member has had a final supplementary. MR. BAIRD: He is after having five supplementaries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. the member for Menihek. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: My question, Mr. Speaker, is for the hon. Minister of Justice. The question I ask the Minister of Justice is under our Elections L2811 June 2, 1987 Vol XL Act,

Section 121, there is a requirement for all candidates to file a return within four months of the return of the by-election. My question to the minister is this - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

FENWICK: since one individual, by the name of Shannie Duff, did not file in time but now has filed, and since Rex Murphy has also not filed up to this date, _ or up untiJ. yesterday when we checked, we would like to know is the minister going to impose the $10 per day fine, which is about $400 or $500 for each of these individuals, because they did not ~·- file within . - the time limited specified in Th1;:! . Elections Act? MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. YOUNG: The hon. the Minister of Justice . MS VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, this is a matter on which I will. be consulting my officials, including the executive of the department and the Chief Electoral Officer. But in deal:ing with these two particular instances, of course, we will consider past practice. and to rny knowledge there has never been a penalty levied for latE! filing of a statement of election expenses under our current legislation. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the No. 53 R2811

member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, that is pretty well the answer we expected because it has not been enforced in the past, which is entirely the point. My question to the minister is this: Since there was an Elections Act filed from a committee that the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter) headed back in, I think, the Fall of 1983, is there any indication whether your government will be bringing in over the next little while a new Elections Act that does indeed have teeth in it, does force disclosure, as in the case, for example, of thE! new Leader of the Liberal Party, so that we can find out where the money is coming in and how much it will be? In other words, Mr.

Speaker, my question to the minister is: Are we bringing in a new Elections Act which will disclose these kinds of things, which will have tE!eth in it, and will bring our level of polit .ics up to the same level as it is in the rest of Canada where good legislation is in place? MS VERGE: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, this administration has been actively considering proposals for new elections legislation for quite some time . As most members of this House are aware, the issues raised in consideration of elections legislation are numerous and complex.

We are taking a considerable amount of time to evaluate the issues and implications thoroughly, and we will be continuing this exercise L2812 June 2, 1987 Vol XL over the next several months. With respect to the filing of election expenses statements by the two candidates mentioned, as the member for Menihe k has pointed out these statements have been filed , albeit after the deadline but within a reasonable period after the dead1ine. The statements are now in the hands of the Chief Electoral Officer and are open to the public. · MR. FENWICK : Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary . MR.

FENWICK: The final supplementary has two parts to it, Mr. Spea ker. For OnE! thing, Rex Murphy • s has not been filed as of yesterday, so if it has it is news to us- ;--- The final supplementary is, given that the · minister indicated she would be looking at past prE!CedE!nts, and I think she is fully aware that we have never in our entirE! history implemented a fine, does that mean that what the minister has told us is that there is no intention whatsoever of imposing a fine on these individuals in this instance? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice . MS VERGE : Mr.

Speaker, I answered that question earlier by saying that I would be consulting the officials of the department. I have just returned to my office after a week away. I attended thE ! Nationa1 Attorneys General and Ministers of Justice Conference in New Brunswick last week and then spent three days in my constituency. Before I left I know that Shannie Duff 1 s statE!ment of elE!Ction expenses had been fi1ed, and from No. 53 R2812

the question of the member for Menihek I thought he was indicating that Rex Murphy's statement had been filed in the interim. I will be reviewing these matters with my officials and considering appropriate action. As I said before, these matters will be evaluated in the li~ht of past practice and to my knowledge, even though some statements of candidates have been filed late in the past, and perhaps some statements were not filed at all, there has never been fines levied under our current legislation. MR. FUREY : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for St. Barbe . MR.

FUREY: I have a question for the Minister of Public Works and Services. In light of his comments there a few minutes ago, I am wondering if he is prepared to have the $1,236,700 which is allocated in this year's budget for Pippy Park deleted from the budget or frozen in the budget pending the outcome of this investigation which he has initiated? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG : No, Mr . Speaker. MR. FUREY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr.

Speaker, the minister the tabled L2813 June 2, 1987 Vol XL the report of the Pippy Park Commission for 1984-85 a year· late. Under the act he is also supposed to table, under

Section 20, Subsection 21,

Section 1, a financial statement setting forth the assets. liabilities, the receipts. the expenditures, all of the financial statements surrounding the Pippy Park Commission. I would like to ask the minister where - is that financial statement? It was not tabled with this report. MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I haue tabled the annual report as required by law, and the annual report I presume was in the budget, Mr. Speaker. There is not one thing- of how a - dollar was spent on what income . was . here. There are two picturE!S there, Mr.

Speaker, on page nine, and they look like the future Leader and the former Leader of the Opposition. Here they are, Mr. Speaker, two donkeys. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition . MR. SIMMONS : Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I want to comE! back to our good friend, thE! Ministe!r of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr . R. Aylward), while he is still the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. I am sure he will be as concerned as others were last night by the revelation on NTV, by the!

Vice-President of Sprung, in which the Vice-President indicated No. 53 R2813

publicly on NTV last evening that he and his firm saw the deal in Newfoundland, the proposed hydroponic project here, as a business opportunity by which to pay off their bills in Alberta, and, Mr. Speaker, I quoted the Vice-President pretty well word for word. In 1 ight of that fairly astounding revelation, has the minister had cause to re!View the proposal of Sprung to set up an operation here in the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr. Speaker, I was busy last night and I did not have a chance to see the news report. Mr.

Speaker, I know that things the han. member says are mostly always to the poi.nt and I would accept that if that is what he heard, I would imagine that is what was reported. I have not talked to the Vice-President, the person from Sprung, but no, Mr. Speaker, I am not reconsidering the deal with Sprung. I am looking forward to having them set up here in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, even one of the experts that the Premier touted as wanting to say things in favour of this operation described it today on CBC radio as a high-risk venture, a high-risk undertaking. L2814 June 2, 1987 Vol XL In view of the statements by the Vice-President of Sprung, as quoted in my earlier question, and the general concern about the viability of the technology as cited by the federal minister, Michel Cote, would the minister indicate to the HoUS(?. what it is the government committed itself to when it signed this deal in principle?

And, in particuJ.ar, in view of the fact that Hris has become so badly unstuck and such a monumental embarrassment for the government, has the government looked into the possibility of getting out of this deal? Would he indicate to the House what would be the actu~l. cost in financial terms, what would be the cost to the taxpayE!rs of getting out of this deal now should the government decide not to go beyond the agreement in principle stage? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: MinistE:!r and of RuraJ., Northern Mr.

Speaker, this government has put a lot of effort into attracting this new, very state-of-the-art technology into this Province, Mr. Speaker. To date we have_ no JntenU.on of trying to get out of a good deal which we have to transfer technology into this Provine(~ and to encourage the Sprung Corporation to set up here as quickly as possible so we can produce what is necessary for l~op quality produce in this Province, Mr. Speaker. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. No. 53 R2814

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett), concerning the Provincial Association for Family Violence, which this morning, on the third floor, had a very interesting seminar with very interesting information. I would like to ask the Minister of Social Services why he did not see it necessary for either him or some of his assistants to attend that very important seminar this morning? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Social Services. MR . BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, I was very much aware that - I do not know if it was a seminar or not - a presentation was being held on the third floor of Confederation Building. I was involved in an extremely important meeting with the senior members of my staff. It was a judgement call as to whether I would cancel the meeting or whether I would attend the event the hon. member talks about. I decided not to cancel the meeting, I went ahead with it and, therefore, I did not make this event.

I am well aware of it, I am well aware of the problems associated with family violence, and I think some of my staff have already seen this presentation. We are very much aware of it and I am glad the han . member found time to attend and, I might also add, several of my colleagues attended that function as well . I should also tell the han. member that I am not the only minister in this administration who is concerned with the social problems of this Province. All of my colleagues are concerned and several of them were there, Mr . Speaker. L2815 June 2, 1987 Vol XL MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER : A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD : I am well aware that the minister is not the only minister in the government, but I assume he is the only Minister of Social Services and little is he doing about that.

I would ask the minister: Seeing as he knows the importance of this particular association, whose budget for this year is $327,000 and they have only been allocated $228,000, will the minister, seeing he has found enough money for a lot of his patronage affairs, come up with the remaining money that this association needs i'fl ~ -order to . - carry out their projects for thE! · rest of this year? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, -two of the most serious social problems facing society today, the society that t.l.le know anyway, are the problems of child abuse and family violence. No matter how much we do as a Province or how much we do as a country, this great country of Canada, I would suggest that it will not be enough . Because of the public awareness that has been created in the last year or so, governments all across Canada are receiving more and more complaints. The number of complaints that are coming into governments - well, I knot.l.l in this No. 53 R2815

Province - have increased by some 100 per cent more. Mr. Speaker, whether or not there is in fact an increase in incidents of child abuse and family violence has not in fact been documented, but we do know that the number of cases reported continue to increase. It is a matter of great concern to the provinces and to the federal government. Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. member 1 s figures are all wrong. Just a few years ago we had one transition house in this Province, and today we have transition houses in Corner Brook, St. John 1 s, Happy Valley, and Labrador City. Mr.

Speaker, last year we budgeted $365,000 and we spent $495,000, almost half a million . That figure, Mr. Speaker, this year will increase to almost $800,000. So I give the House these figures just to point out that government is very, very cognizant of the serious problems that exist and what we are trying to do about them. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. I would like to welcome to the visitor 1 s gallery sixty-nine Grades VII and VIII students with their three teachers Wade Martin, Harry Grandy and Wayne Green.

They are from Little Heart 1 s Ease All-Grade School in the district of Bellevue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! L2816 June 2, 1987 Vol XL Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. OTTENHEIMER : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Government Leader. MR. OTTENHEIMER : House Before presenting the report, I call to Your Honour 1 s attention that also in the gallery is thE! former Member of Parliament for Trinity - Conception, Mr. Tucker. I am sure memb~rs of the House would like to welcomE!- .hirn to thE! Legisla·ture. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

OTTENHEIMER: I would also like to table the . Annual Report, 1986, of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I would like to table the Financial Statements and Activity Report of the Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage Foundation for the year ended the 31st March, 1986. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker . No . 53 R2816

MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, for the information of the Opposition, I would like to direct their attention to the Auditor General 1 s Report, Public Accounts, signed January 26, 1987, where there is a full account and an audited statement of the Pippy Park Commission on page 92. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I believe the hen. gentleman rose on a point of order. MR. YOUNG: No, I never, Mr. Speaker. 000 MR. TULK: On a.point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hen. the member for Fogo. MR.

TULK: The hen. gentleman is now trying to weasel out from under something that he is suppose to do in this Legislature. The fact of the matter is the Pippy Park Commission Annual Report is suppose to contain financial information showing revenues and expenditures and the fact of the matter is it is not in the annual report that was tabled for 1984 - 1985, and the fact of the matter is that the Minister of Public Works and Services, who is suppose to see that that is done, has been derelict in his duties. He can hide behind the Auditor General• s Repor't all he wan~:s. Let rne say this to him: That is 1984 1985.

Where is 1985 - 1986? L2817 June 2, 1987 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! of order. There is no point MR. BARRY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. member for Mount Scio Island. MR. BARRY: thE! 81':!11 Mr. Speaker, we have The Pippy Park Commission Act,

an act of the Legislature of this ProvinCE!. We have a minister who has broken a

section of that act. Now, is the former Minister of J_itstice, now the Government House Leader, or is the current Minister of Justice going to do anything to enforce the legislation of this Province or is it all a mockery? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Government House Mr . Speaker, iA.Ie know the hon . gentleman is getting ready to go back to the practice of law, but let him not try to imprE!SS peoplE! in here as if we were going l:.o be foolish enough, as if he werE! going to find potential clients here.

As our colleague the Minister of Public Works and Services has pointed out, within three hours after any inadequacy became known to him - ~R. TULK: What has that got to do with it? MR. OTTENHEIMER: No. 53 R2817

Listen to them, Mr. Speaker, they do not have the manners of a horse's you-know-what. They get up and make allegations, and they do not even listen to answers. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! Order, please! MR. TULK: Who is the you-know-what? MR. OTTENHEIMER: I do not have a mirror. You look in a mirror and you will find it. It will be backwards. But, Mr. Speaker, the point is we should not allow our tempers to get ruffled. The hon. gentleman asked a question, I said, you know, certainly he was not going to, by his courtroom tactics, necessarily recruit any clients here. .

The hon. minister has pointed out that there is a police investigation underway and that the Auditor General is looking into the matter. When the police investigation is completed and when the Auditor General's report is completed, he will make a full disclosure and nobody can act in a more responsible manner than that. MR. FUREY: To that point Speaker. of or·der, Mr . MR. SPEAKER : I will hear the hon. member very briefly on that point. The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, th~ hon. ·knows, and he has good training, that this investigation is but merely old.

This report is a year L2818 June! 2, 1987 member legal police a week late. Uol XL There is a big difference, a clear and distinct difference. He can hide behind all the silly jargon he wants but he knows that there is a distinct difference. In the one case there is a police investigation, which :ls a week old and which has nothing to do whatsoever on this planet with the report bedng a year late. That is the fact of the matter, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, thE!re is no point of order. MR. BARRY: I rise on another point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Mount Scio-Bell Island. MR. BARRY : We have a budget before this House, included in that budget is $1,236,700 which the Government House Leader, when he calls the Budget Speech, is asking this House to appropriate for the Pippy Park Commission. Is the Government House Leader saying that members of this House must vote for that blindly, not knowing what the financ-ial position of thE! Pippy Park Commission is, and not knowing whether or not that money is required, or is sufficient for the Pippy Park Commission? What is the position of Government in the budget debate? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: fo that point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the estimates No. 53 R2818

themselves have been passed but when the budget motion is up, hon . members will vote as they wish . The hon. gentlemen on the opposite side may support the budget or they may vote against the budget. Hon. members on this side, I think, will support ~overnment's financial policy. Hon. gentleman on the opposite side can do what they wish . MR. BARRY: Blindly? MR. OTTENHEIM.ER : Rationally, thoughtfully, - MR. BARRY : With information? MR. OTTENHEIMER : intelligently, and with all the necessary information. MR. SPEAKER : To that point of order, there is no point of order. MR. TULK : A new point of order, Mr.

Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo, a new point of order. MR . TULK: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman knows that what has been done here is completely contrary to what this Legislature stands for. We have already in this Legislature, I say to him, given funds to the Pippy Park Commission, perhaps quite wrongly, and we are about to do it again because they have not yet reported to this Legislature. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. TULK: L2819 June 2, 1987 Vol XL Now I ask him to see that things are right - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . TULK: - that indeed the money is passed appropriately. MR .

SPEAKER : Order, please! That point of order seems to the Chair to be exactly the same point I ruled was not a point of order. Petitions _. MR. FENWICK : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Menih ek. MR . FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. This petition, Mr. Speaker, is identical in the prayer to the one that was entered into the rE !Cord yesterday. It contains 170 signatures from individuals, again, who are employees of the provincial government here .

I wish to enter it into th e record and also to direct it to the Minister of Finance who is stubbornly resisting doing the honourable thing and giving our pensioners what is their due . One thing I would like to point out, since I did not have a chance to reply to the minister's speaking to the petition yesterday where, by the way, he supported it in a most unique manner, and that is, he claimed yesterday that to put in the kinds of changes that I would like to see, or at least to No . 53 R2819

retain the kinds of privileges that were here before, would cost more money because we would be adding additional benefits to the provincial pensioners. Mr. Speaker, we are not adding anything at all . All we are saying are the benefits that they have contracted for over their wo~king lifetime in the last twenty or thirty years they be given in accordance with the agreement under which the pension scheme was set up back in 1967. In other words, Mr, Speaker, the implication was that we wouJ.d be giving them something additional that they did not earn over that time period. In fact, we would be giving them exactly what they earned. To follow the Minister of Finance•s (Dr. Collins)

interpretation of the legislation and the changes he proposes in Bill 40 would indeed take from them something which they have earned over the last period of years. So, Mr. Speaker, I again request that the government live up to its moral obligations to treat its pensioners fairly and to make sure that the pensions they receive when they hit age sixty and the early CPP now clicks in, that they do not have their provincial pension reduced, as has been the practice since January 1 of this year and is the practice, as far as we know, Mr.

Speaker, only in this Province, not in any of the other provinces of Canada, and is not the practice in Ottawa as well. So, Mr. Speaker, we just want to reiterate those points. It is not a case of giving them anything more. It is keeping them from losing what the Minister of L2820 June 2, 1987 Vol XL Finance so callously has been taking from them since January 1. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member fo .r Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support thE! petition presented, and also echo his same sentiments .

Certainly the Public Service pensioner s of this Province should be entitled to receive the full benefits of pensions to which thE!Y haVE! pai.d in. It seems as though the provincial government are using the Canada Pension Plan to its own advantage and not to the advantage of the pensioners. This seems ·iJery, very clear, and it is certainly calJ.ous . treatment . It is a crime, Mr. Speaker, it is a travesty, that people who take an early retirement- are penalized by this government because they are entitled to recedve Canada PE!nsion Plan benefits.

I would again echo the words echoed by the hon. member in presenting this- petition, that as far as I can find out, and obviously as far as he can find out, we are the only province having this particular arrangement. I understand, as a matter of fact, when the minister or his officials were in Ottawa where they discussed this and this Province made known its proposals, there were a lot of raised eyebrows by the other provincial ministers. They were quite surprised that our Province was going to bring in this scheme, that they were going to use the Canada Pension Plan to the benefit No. 53 R2820

of the Province and not to the benefit of the pensioners. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that there were a lot of raised eyebrows around that table by other provincial Ministers of Finance or the other officials, whoever they repreSE!nted. They were quite surprised that our Province was going to take advantage of the Canada Pension Plan for the benefit of the Province and not for the benefit of the pensioners. Mr. Speaker, that should not be the case !.

I suggest the minister look at this again to ensure that our pensioners in the Public Service receive the full benefit of pensions to which they have paid in and to which they are entitled. As a matter of fact, there is legislation in other provinces to prevent the private sector from doing this. There were moves by the private sector to have this kind of a thing done, but there is legislation in other provinces to prevent the private sector from doing this kind of thing, but not in this Province. So, Mr.

Speaker, we have certainly gone astray from other provinces in terms of giving our pensioners the full benefit of the Canada Pension Plan, and that should be reversed immediately so that our pensioners receive the full benefit of both their pensions, the pension of the provincial Public Service, and the Canada Pension Plan as well. DR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Finance . L2821 June 2, 1987 Vol XL DR . COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, just a brief fE!W comments.

I will not cornrnen t in detail because, as Your Honour knows, there is an item on the Order Paper which will come up which deals specifically with this and members of the House of Assembly will have the opportunity to discuss this to their he!art 1 s desire. It has almost been flogged to death already. I have answered it time and time again. Firstly, pensioners now and in the future will receive fully all the benefits that they pay in for. As a matter of fact, the.Y will receive more benefit~ than the_11 pay in for. There is a huge, unfunded liability which the government will make up.

That unfunded liability is somE!thing that the pensioners have not paid for but from which th _E!.'f wilJ. gE!t. benefit. So, it is at the heigh i: of nonsense, foolishness, and irresponsibility to say that pensioners will get less than they paid for. They have always got: ten more than they have paid for , they now get more than paid for, and in the future they will get more than they paid for. So let us put: that chestnut to rest. Secondly, it is said that we are not doing things as other provinces are doing. Correct. For instance, we are not requiring our employees to contribu te as much as other provinces.

We are more generous to our employees in terms of requiring pension contributions than other provinces. Our contribution rate is less. Thirdly, thing is there for No. 53 this early retirement not new. It has bE:1e n years. All people who R2821

retired early, for whatever reason, because of the nature of the programme and because of the nature of the contribution schedule. had the reduction factor applied to them which meant that the aggregate pension that they took home had a higher proportion from the CPP than would otherwise be the case. It is not an unusual thing. It has been there since the plan was in effect in 1967, I think it was, on the basis of a Royal Commission in 1966 which advised that it be done this way. Now, the bill on the Order Paper will give some protection to pensioners that is not now there.

So this is a good bill that is coming up on the Order Paper which will give an added benefit to pensioners. There is something not there now which this bill will now add. So that is a benefit. MR. K. AYLWARD : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: This is another petition from the Stephenville and Bay St. George area concerning the cutbacks in social services. Petitions are still com:i.ng in. They have them all over the area and I expect I will be getting them on a daily basis over the next couple of days. It is an issue, Mr.

Speaker, which has been alive, is not going away and the people out there are very concerned about it. I feel that this government should review its decision to cutback in that arE!a of government spending and in L2822 June 2, 1987 Vol XL government help. It is area where, for example, this morning we see a need for more resources in the area of family violence to deal with that problem. I want to urge the government and the minister responsible to review the deciston taken by his department in cutting back positions in department offices around the Province. I would likE! to say, Mr.

Speaker, that I also found out over the weekend that one member of the government. was down in his district saying that a position they were going to lose, they might not lose. I do not know why he would say that or what power he would have more than anybody else, Mr. Speaker, but it disturbs me because these positions are very crucial to the people around the Province who depend on the services~.- -- We have people around the Province, Mr.

Speaker, for example, foster children who have major problems to deal with and who now have less resources to wo r k with and 1 e s s p E! o p 1 E! i n t. hE! department to help them work on and solve the problems. I have to continue, Mr. Speaker, in presenting these points of view from these peoF'le because this is their avenue and a lot of them want to express it. A lot of them have been telling me that thE! issue is not going away. As a matter of fact, they are trying to develop more ways to make it a public issue so that this not be allowed to occur.

When such moves are made by government, it is time that thE!Y respond to the views of the people out there and thE ! rnaj ori ty vie:~w. 99 per cent, 100 per cent pretty well, is that this dE'!Cision takE!n by government be revietued because No. 53 R2822

of its drastic effects on the ·services offered to the people. I suppose it goes right to the heart of what priorities you take. While realizing the financial restraint that the government is under, realizing its financial commitment that it has to other departments, I want to say to the minister and h·is government that there has to be certain maj.or priori ties. Getting up and saying you are spending $360,000 a day on social services does not solve the problem and does not mend what you have just done, which is lower the services that these people who are in desperate shape and desperate need require.

I can only say that I will continue, as more petitions arrive, to present these points of view in the House of AsSE!mbly for these people because they do not see why we have to give money to other areas of priority that this government has · chosen, such as millions of dollars for outside companies as such to set up projects that are not that feasible maybe. They look at that and they say, • How can you justify the $700,000 that you are saving here by cutting back social services?' Where is the priority that you have when they are out there screaming for more councellors to deal with the problems that they have?

Where was the priority of the government when there was screaming there? There were people looking for and groups lobbying for more resources in the social services field and you decide that you do not ne!ed thirty-five positions in your department. I have a problem, Mr. Speaker, with that priority. L2823 June 2, 1987 Vol XL I will again point out to the government, realizing the financial predicaments and so on that this government have themselves in, they should reassess that decision, they should reasses the priority that social services has.

While they may be spending a ton of money on it, there are areas where they are spending money on it that are of some question, like when it comes to these job progra111mes at t.imes. Mr. Speaker. With the unemployment rate that they have in this Province, we have seen increasing social problems when it comes to family violence and whE!n it comes to the abuse a-f . people. So the $700,000 saving, Mr. Speaker, I think is going to mean more of an expense because this government is going to see more people who are not 9etting those . services needing more help in the future. It is going to mean increased costs, Mr.

Speaker, to provide the proper service for these people around the Province. I can only tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the people in my area and all over the West Coast arE! VE!ry saddened by the decision government has taken. They have asked me and ~ number of other members to present these petitions to keep the issue alive until government decides that we arE! going to make this more of a priority. I think that that is the point of view that we want to get across, Mr. Speaker, the realistic point of view that I think this government should undertake to look at.

They should review the decision and come back and, at the very least, provide the service that was there before. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No. 53 R2823

M-R. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise in my place today to support th.e prayer of the petition so ably presented by the member for Stephenville. Mr. Speaker, it is kind of a sad reflection upon the government of this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador when you see the Minister of Finance some days ago standing in his place to proudly state that he and his government have spent $1.1 billion on welfare and social services since 19'79.

I would have thought that rather than taking credit for such a massive expenditure, they would have hung their heads in shame in fear of admitting that there was such a deep and entrenched problem in this area of our society. Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague from Stephenville talks about the cutback of thirty-five social workers. Now, Mr. Speaker, if there was ever a department that ought not to be tampered with in this Province, because of the state that we find ourselves in, it is the Department of Social Services.

If anything, we should not only be sensitive but super sensitive to people who, through no fault of their own, have to come and knock at government•s door for help. What do we see? We see a classic case of twisted priorities and convoluted priorities. Instead of saying, we ought to retain these jobs and we ought to give people just a little bit more to make their liVE!S more dignified and L2824 June 2, 1987 Vol XL more meaningful, we see them take the cutting knife and pare closer to the bone and chop away in an area that ought to be super sensitive. MR. DINN: You know all about knives over there all right. MR.

FUREY: I see the Minister of ~ines (Mr. Dinn), in his usual jocular way I spouting from his desk, and he is the man responsible for 165 jobs in my very district. His leader, the Premier of the Province, gave a commi±ment a week ago that he would giv£~ us a final decision a WE!ek later. That week was yesterday. I asked the minister yesterday and what did he do? Shrug it off, 1 My leadet' is not here. • Well, be - has lost control of his depar tment anyway I . so what else is new. Mr. Speaker, getting back to the real issue at hand. The real issue at hand is thE! pe!ople out there.

I would like to seE:~ this minister, or indeed any minister of this government, stand in their place and tell me or tell any thinking Newfoundlander or Labradorian, Mr- . Speaker, that thE! $700,000 the Premier spent on paint and new drapes and new carpets was a meaningful expenditure, was a plniori ty, whe!n he chops away thirty-five social workers 1 jobs! Let that mi .nister stand in his place today ~~nd defend the $3 million that they s pent - and he was part of i t - trouncing across Europe, running across Southeast Asia, across Australia, across South America, across the United States, $3 million.

How many jobs did they bring back from these exotic lands, these jet setting Cabinet No. 53 R2824

ministers? Mr. Speaker, let him stand in his place and tell me it was a priority to spend $250,000 worth of taxpayers' hard earned dollars on the cocktail circuit last year! Let him stand in his place and defend that! Again, Mr. Speaker, let him stand in his place and defend the hiring of eight press secretaries for eight lazy ministers when we have a department called the Newfoundland Information Services at a cost of $250,000. $3 million, Mr.

Speaker , for j e t setting ; $2 50, 000 for the cocktail circuit; $250,000 for press secretaries for lazy ministers; and $700,000 so that the Premier can have pretty pinks and pastels to look at in his office. Twisted, convoluted priorities, Mr. Speaker, and that minister and his government should be ashamed. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, privilege. on a AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) privilege . MR. SPEAKER: point of A point of privilege, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Now, I know the hon. gentleman was in the Chair at one point, but he is not there now and hE! does not need to make rulings. Mr.

Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege, and I would ask Your Honour to listen because I think it is a serious matter of privilege. I realize full well in rising that a matter of privilege is not to be taken lightly and is something which should rarely be raised. I say to Your Honour, I L2825 June 2, 1987 Uol XL rise on a point of privilege and it concerns a very serious breach of this House's privileges and of the law of this land by the Minister of Public Works and Services and the effect that that action has upon this Legislature. Your Honour, I could read

Section 16 but I do not believe I need to do that. Because as Your Honour will know, 11 Parliamentary privilege is the sum of thE! peculiar rights enjoyed by each House collectively as a constituent part of the High Court of Parliament, and by ME!mbers of each House individually, without which they could no.t. dischargE! their functions. 11 I say to Your Honour that that is perhaps the key phrase in the argument I am going to use. I would go on and r-ea-d to Your . - Honour, 11 The privilegE!S of .

Parliament are rights which are 'absolutely necessary for the due execution of its powers 1 • They are enjoyed by individual Members, because the House cannot perform its functions without unimpeded use of the services of its Members; and by each House for the protection of its ME!mbE!rs and thE! vindication of its own authority and dignity. 11 Mr. Speaker, as Your Honour knows perhaps better than I do, the functton of parliamen ·t as it was originally defined is to appropriate and to see that the finances of a country are rightly spent and properly spent after due investigation of what has gone on. Mr.

Speaker, this Legislature has

an act which is called The Pippy Park Commission Act.

Section 20 of that act reads: 'The Commission' - meaning The Pippy Park Commission - 'shall not later No. 53 R2825

than the 31st day of December in each year prepare and submit to the minister a financial statement setting forth the assets and liabilities of the Commission• - to the minister, I say -• and the receipts and expenditures of the Commission for the previous year together wi t:h a report concerning the work of the Commission during the previous financial year. • Your Honour, in the case of the Minister of Public Works and Services, I want to refer Your Honour to

section 22 of that piece of legislation. It says, •rhe statement and report referred to in subsection 1 shall be laid before the Assembly within fifteen days after which they are submitted to the minister if the Assembly is then sitl:ing, and, if not, then within fifteen days after the commencement of the next ensuing Session. • Your Honour, there is a very clear reason for that, obviously.

That piece of legislation was debated in this House for a very clear and a very understandable reason and that is that the minister and the Pippy Park Commission through the minister, has to be responsible for how it carries on its financial affairs in this Province to the Legislature so that we can make appropriate decisions affecting that Commission. Mr. Speaker, I believe this is the last detail I want to bring to Your Honour•s attention: We are asked by the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Public Works and Services to approve a budget of $1,236, '700 for the Pippy Park Commission for this year. Mr.

Speaker, we would normally do that on the basis of information that is supplied to us by the minister and that is supplied to him by the L2826 June 2, 1987 Vol XL Pippy Park Commission and which he has an obligation to go get. Now, let me say to Your Honour that the minister is trying to hide behind the fact that there is an investigation going on. We are not asking in this Legislature, and if we are, perhaps we have the right to since we arE! thE! highE!St. court in this Provinct~, for him to provide details as to who is being charged, if anybody, who is bl~ing investigated, if anybody.

We arE! saying to him that under the legislation and in order for us to perform our duties as legislators, all members, regardless of whethE!r they are on the ~overnment side or on ours, have the right and shouJ.d have t.he right to infor·mation as to how the money that was given to the Pippy Park Commission last year was spE!nt, whether thE!rE! was an misappropriation q(.-Funds, or whether they were spent in the way that they I./Jere meant to be spent.

I would submit to Your Honour that in order for this L~?.gislature to do that, in order for my duties as a member to not be impeded, or any other member in this Legislature, I should have that information before me. And that is obviously the reason for the fifteen days being written in: 1Th•e minister is required to submit that to us within fifteen of the opE!ni ng of the Legislature. • Mr.

Speaker, my point is that by the minister asking us to approu€~ those funds and by withholding the information it is necessary for us to have in order to i3.pproVE! thoSE! funds, and by the minister continually standing in his seat and refusing to either go after the report or to submit it to the Table of this House. every member of this Legislature is being impeded from carrying out lhe duties that he was elected to do. No. 53 R2826

By his refusal to do so, I submit to Your Honour that he is breaching the privileges of this Legislature and of every member in it. Now, the Government House Leader will rise and he will probably go into this spiel again about the investigation, whether it is criminal or otherwise, that is going on into the Pippy Park Commission. I say to Your Honour that he should dis card that, that he should forget it, it has nothing to do with what is going on in this Legislature.

In this Legislature we have the solemn duty to examine the finances of the Pippy Park Commission and we have the solemn duty to do that before we appropriate any more funds to them to carry on their operations next year. That is obviously the purpose of the act and in breaking the law, which the Pippy Park Commission has done, the hon. gentleman, the Minister of Public Works, has broken the privileges of this legislature. MR. OTTENHEIMER : Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Government House Leader. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, before beginning what my hon . friend refers to as my spiel, I assure him it will be 15 per cent, perhaps less, in length of what it is in value. That ulill be' for others to judge, including the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans . However, just a couple of matters I want to refer to, and then the unthinkable thing, try to quote an authority or so. It has been alleged that members of the House L2827 June 2~ 1987 Vol XL are being impeded tn their duty, and their duty is to form a judgement. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when it comes to members forming a judgement I if they make up their own minds and when the government, or a minister, puts forward a case, those who support that government, are in agreement uli th government policy, will, if they so wi s h , support it I and those who do not will vote against it. But there is no gun to anybody 1 s head and everybody is free to use their own judgement. With reference also to the Pippy Park Act., and the Chair is not an authority to give_ . statutory

interpretations, if hon. members on the opposite side belieVE! that a minister is in breach of a statutory obligation, the redress for statutory obligation is in the courts and let the~&- _ go to thE! . - courts with res pee t . to any . allegation they have with respect to a breach of a statutory duty. Really what it hinges around, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that the Minister of Public Works has said in effect, "I will not give any more information on this matter because there is a police investigation and because the Auditor General is conducting an enquiry. Therefore, I have no further comment.

That essentially is what he has said, and that is essentially what the Opposition is speaking against. Now, page 12 of Beauchesne,

Section 19, says very clearly 1 The failure of a Minister of the Crown to answer a question may not be raised as a question of privilege.' What it all hinges around is that the Minister of Public Works for his own and very good reasons has refused to answer certain questions which are being asked by the Opposition and he has No. 53 R282'7

given his reason for doing it. Whether one agrees with his reason or not, it is quite clear in Beauchesne that 1 the failure of a Minister of the Crown to answer a question may not be raised as a question of privilege. 1 And that is essentially what the Opposition is saying, that the minister will not answer them this, or will not answer them that, or give them this inforrna ·tion, or give them that information . He has made clear that he will not do it, and he has made clear the reasons he is not doing it, but what it all boils down to is no member is being impeded from using his judgement.

In voting on a matter, every member may use his judgement. The suggestion that it is the Chair to uJhich one seeks an address for an allegation of a Statutory breach of a civil nature, is, of course, not the case at all, that is the Civil Courts. The Speaker presides only over points of order and points of privilege, not the enforcement of statutes, whether with respect to members of the House or outside the members of the House. Indeed, the Chair is not in a position to do that and is not able to do that.

What it all boils down to is that the Minister of Public Works has said no, he is not going to give any more information on this at this particular time. And the refusal to answer a question, as quite clear in Beauchesne, does not establish a prima facie case of breach of privilege. MR. BARRY: To that point of privilege, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege, the hon. the member for Mount Scio - L2828 June 2, 1987 Vol XL Bell Island. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Government House Leader has not phrased the issUE! quite correctly. It is not that the minister has refused to answer a ::tuestion.

The minist:er has answered the question which was asked. He was asked the question, 1 Will he confirm to this House that he is satisfied that he has the financial information upon which to base the request for $1,236,700? 1 The minister has said that he will not give that assurance. The ministe•r wi11 not tell us whether or not he has the information upon which-he can base a decision as to whether that money is needed. What we have here, Mr. Speaker, is something that goes to the very root of the .p,a ·rliamentary process. The Legislature was . established in order to approve appropriations for the Crown.

As a matter of fact, I have never heard of a situation where it has been otherwise. The practicE! and tradition of this House is that if there is a request for funds, government ministers will supply the information to justify thE! request. If they can come in and say here is the money that is needed, no information supplied, let us get on with it, what is the point of debate? MR. TULK : What is the point of the House? MR. BARRY: What is the point of the House? That comes secondly.

But how can you debate in this House if you are as ked to approve ernpty nurnbers and there is no information given upon which to base those numbers? Mr. Speaker, I question whether, No . 53 R2828

in fact, the burden should be on members of the Opposition to enforce the Statutes of this Province. It would seem to me that the Minister of Justice or, indeed, the previous Minister of Justice, the current Government House Leader, would have an obligation as members of Cabinet to.request that charges be laid if Statutes of this Province have been broken. Now, is the minister saying that there were no Statutes broken? The Pippy Park Act is clear:

Section . 20 says 'the mi.nister must table a report within fifteen days. ' Now, I can unde!rs tand if the report is not given to the minister that he might have some reason for not doing that. MR. OTTENHEIMER: He cannot do it . It is impossible, is it not? MR. BARRY : He should come in and stand up in this House and explain that he does not have the report and that, therefore, certain mechanisms should then be set in order. Mr. Speaker, if we understand the minister, he made no effort after fifteen days to table the report from the previous year. MR. TULK: What about last year? MR.

BARRY: That is effort to after the the one. He made no table last year's report fifteen days. Mr. Speaker, we do not want the minister to comment upon an ongoing police investigation. That is not what we have asked. What we have asked is will the minister provide this House with L2829 June 2, 1987 Uol XL the information needed to determine whether we should appropriate $1,236,700 which the Minister of Finance, I am sure, does not want to see spent unless there is a need for it.

So unless the Minister of Public Works and Services can say, yes, that monE!Y is needed - in fact, he should go further and say it is sufficient - then, Mr. Speaker, this whole pro c e s s i s be i n g bas t a rd i z e d , the whole process is be:ing abused and this House becomes meaningless. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Government House Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A brief reply, if you will ·9ermit.

To . zero in on what the han. gentleman . for Mount Scio - Bell Island was saying, he was referring to a statutory obligation of the minister to table within fifteen days. Obviously that statutory obligation can only be operative if the minister has and can possibly do what is required that he do. So, if there is an obligation to table something within fifteen days and the minister does not have it, it :is not the minister who is in bre!ach of a statutory obligation, it rnay well be somebody else who was supposed to have given hirn that which is to be tablE!d. That may well be.

But if the minis l:er is required to table something within fifteen days and he does not have it, nobody has given it to hirn, then, obviously, he cannot do the impossible. I quoted it yesterday but my learned friend was not here then, and he is well familiar with the adage that nerno dat quad non habet. That is operative for thE! No. 53 R2829

Minister of Public Works. Indeed, I am told that he is the gentleman who coined that phrase earlier on in his life, when he was presiding over a lodge in which he, I think, raised to eminent heights. I believe he was the original coiner of ·the phrase, but of that I am not sure. There are others who saY. that it goes back to more ancient times, I do not know. But, anyway, the hon. gentleman could not table what he did not have. I can see absolutely no question of a breach of privilege whatsoever, no prime facie case whatsoever.

If there is anything inappropriate. then that is the subject of a police inquiry and also of an inquiry by the Auditor General, who is a servant of this House, and when those inquiries are over, then if there is any matter of a breach of privilege that is the opportune time, that is when it would be opportune, not now when the minister says he cannot, and I can we 11 understand that, give additional information because of the police investigation and the investigation of the Auditor General.

But when those are completed and the Auditor General's reports are public, then if there is any opportunity to endeavour to make a prime facie case of breach of privilege, that is the time to do it. Now it is premature and now, I would suggest, it is out of order. If, upon the report of the servant of this House, the Auditor General, there are reasons to indicate anything inappropriate on the part of any member of this House, that is the timE! to bring forward the matter of privilege. MR. SPEAKER : I have heard two submissions on my L2830 June 2, 1987 Vol XL right and I House Leader matter. MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: know the Government spoke twice on the All right, I will hear the hon . the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Very quickly the hon. gentletnan is right that the Minister of Public Works and Services cannot table what hE! does not haVE!. But it is by extension of this legislation incumbent upon the hon. gentlE!man to see that that rep.ort is done after December 31 and that he tables it in this Legislature fifteen days afterwards.

May I say to Your Honour that beside the fact that- the police_ investigation has nothing to do with the duties of the hon. gentleman - I understand the police investigation is one week old - this report should have been in the minister's hands on the 2nd. of January, allowing for NE!W Year's Day. Actually it should have been in his hands on January 1, and when the Legislature op ened in March, it should haVE! been tabled in this- Legislature fifteen days afterwards. So fifteen days afterwards he was in breach of the privileges of this House.

Not a week ago, not yesterday, nol: today, but fifteen days aftE!r this Legislature opened in March. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege raised by the hon. the membE!r for Fogo, number one the hon. member could have raised this bE!fore today, but that is not the point that I would like to rule on. It appears to mE! that the han. member· is asking the Chair to really interpret No. 53 R2830

The Pippy Park Act and when a particular report should be presented to the House. I would like to refer the hon. member to Beauchesne, page 38,

Section 117, s u b s e c t ion ( 6 ) : 11 The Speak e r wi 11 not give a decision upon a constitutional question nor decide a question of law, though the same may be raised on a point of order or'privilege. 11 I think what the hon. member is asking me to do is to decide a question of law in this matter, and I do not think the hon. member has established a prima facie case. Orders of the Day MR. OTTENHEIMER : The adjourned debate on second reading of Bill No. 18. MR. SPEAKER: 11

An Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act 11 • Debate was adjourned by the hon. member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland) who has eight minutes left. The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not know if I will require the full eight minutes, but, nevertheless, just a cJ.osing rE!mark or two with reference to the Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act.

Yesterday, you will recall, I did commend the minister on a fine piece of work in bringing in the amendment which is going to be meaningful to us all and I did go into a bit of an explanation of an incident which occurred in my district a couple of years ago. I would be curious to know, perhaps outside the Legislature at the first opportunity, if the minister L2831 June 2, 1987 Vol XL has had a chance to look at that situation and determine why claims submitted by workers who survived the accident have not been paid.

I suggested in my comments that perhaps the reason why the claims had not been paid might haVE! bE!E!n because of the fact that in doing so government would put i tse!lf in a position of adrnitt:ing fault or accepting blame for a terrible accident which resulted in the loss of life. Now, I would like to suggest to the minister that he look into that and perhaps we can discuss it outside the House. Because I know of no other reason _why claims would not be settled. If the claims have been determined to be legitimate, they obviously should be paid.

We are now talking about almost two years and thE!S e pE!OplE! lost a considerable, _ ·amount, I. ­ suppose, for any individual to . lose in their personal belongings and, of course, more tragically, the loss of a fellow worker, which is distressing, a terrible thing.

I would ask him to also deter·mine if he will look into the matter to determine whether or not the rules and regulations and procedures have now been put in place, if not before that incident then following that -incident, to ensure that nothing like that happens again, or to guard against the eventuality of something like that happening at a future time.

The other point I think which bears a little re!peti tion is the fact that I made the point that no matter how good the regulations and the rules are and the training i s with r e s p e c t to s a f e t y i n t. he work place, whether it is hazardous mate!riaJ.s, or work practices, or the actual work environment, it would be important, I think, to rnake sure No. 53 R2831

the mechanism is there, the vehicle is there to ensure that these things are enforced. I made the point and it again bears repeating, I believe, that there is not much point in having a regulation or a law or a rule or a set of codes governing conditions in the work place unless there is a means by which they can be enforced. I would like to make that point as strongly as possible. All too often we see regulations put in place with all good intent. Obviously when you do something to protect people and to benefit people, the intent has to be good.

But the determination should be equally strong to make sure that those particular regulations, rules and codes are carried out to the fullest extent, and a feedback or reporting system is put in place whereby in the event that regulations are inappropriate or incomplete that they be updated and upgraded, and where enforcement of the regulations approved in legislation is not being done that there is a form of feedback so that the minister and the government responsible is fully aware of the shortcomings in the system and will take steps to correct them. Again, Mr.

Speaker, I commend the minister on the legislation and I ask him to haVE! a J.ook to SE!e if it is extensive enough. And if it has not gotten out into the areas, then I suggest that he take steps to do that. And ensure him again that when he brings in legislation and amendments to legislation which is of benefit to the people we represent in our Province, he can be assured of my support and the support of my colleagues. I look forward to additional legislation which will be of benefit to those people. L2832 June 2, 1987 Vol XL Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I must take advani:age of this particular bill to draw something to the minister 1 s attention. I have prepared no notes nor no speech, it is just something that occurred to rne while listening to my han. colleague, and it is as a result of an experience I had som~~ tirne ago with people who brought the situation to my attention.

As he knows, and practicalJ.y everyonE! who has any kind of mechanical ability or the abi1ity to do repairs on automobile~ -will know . there are four or five . in E!Uery . community, quite apart from the professionals, the major garages, who will provide the k1nd of protection that painters, for argument sake, u.dll need, but there are literally hundreds of small, family owned body shops, one lane operation body shops.

Now, I do not have the documentation in front of me to quote to the minister the technical names, but apparE!ntly the new kind of paint being used on automobiles - it is in a spray can - contains a substance that is very injurious to ones heal t.h. It can cause death under the right circumstances, but the biggest concern is the long-term effect that over-exposure or long-time exposure to the hardner and to the substances in this particular paint would have. MR. HEARN: (Inaudible). No. 53 R2832

MR. FLIGHT: Now, the Minister of Education would do well to run his own department, create some jobs and stop creating them on a patronage basis. The Department of Labour in Nova Scotia was concerned enough to start a public education programme and sent inspectors around and identified every single honie industry - body shop, paint shop - using this type of new paint and advissd them of the dangers.

They gave them instructions as to how to use it and the type of equipment they should use, and told them, also, that now they are all aware, the Department of Health and Safety in Nova Scotia is looking at legislation that wo1~ld force people to use these various materials, these paints, under the right kind of conditions to the extent that is possible to protect their health and protect them from the kind of lung related diseases that could occur in the future after long exposure to this type of mixture, this new ·hardner.

I raise that with the minister and maybe he would want to check with the Health and Safety Division in Nova Scotia to find out exactly what the concerns might have been, because I suspect there are as many body shops in Newfoundland as there are in Nova Scotia. The minister will know first-hand that if you walk in and want your car painted in these small body shop, there is no protection but a little gas mask . By the way, this stuff is so potent it cannot be stopped by an ordinary gas mask, and they are recommending special apparatus if you are going to be exposed to it for a long time.

I know that car painters in this Province are concerned, but they continue to do it because they have to make a living . L2833 June 2, 1987 Vol XL There are hundreds of little garages doing paint jobs whosE ! employees and owners are exposed to this and it may create a problem, Mr . Minister. So it would certainly be worthwhile if the minister would take a look at the concerns the Nova Scotia government have, and not pay any attention to the Minister of ·Education who is concerned about nobody but himself, Mr ~ Sp eaker . I am concerned about the health of those people. Mr.

Speaker, it would not surpris E! me if the minister is not totally con v e r san t with the i s s u e I j u s t raised, but I think it would be worthwhile if he had his officials check out what is happening in Nova Scotia relative to this to determine whether or not there .is a threat to the people using this, and whether or not w.e _.£an reduce _ the risk they are running if th ey_ have to use these new paints and the new hardeners that arE! on thE! market now. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Just some short comments, Mr .

Speaker, on the bilJ.. We welcomE! any improvements or regulations that will give a uniform standard respecting the work place . This bill is under the Minister of Labour's department, a bill that is talking about adopting national uniform standards. I would like to bring to his atte!ntion -· and I would like him to respond - to what exactly is going on with the! Worker's Compension Appeals Board No. 53 R2833

that is being set up. I would like to know the status of that, because injured workers, the result of having accidents, is very relevant to occupational health and safety and to the minister•s department. I think it is a really good moue to see the Appeals Board being set up,· but I would just like to as ·k the minister to respond to what is going on with the status of the new Appeals Board : when they expect they will be having hearings, etc. I know they will have a lot of work ahead of them, because there are many people interested in getting a review tlone of their cases.

I am very interested in seeing that come about in the very near future, and I am sure the minister feels the same. I would appreciate a status report on that, since it is relevant to the bill and to his department. Also, Mr. Speaker, I would like the minister to give his comments on an idea I wrote him about a while back concerning an organization for injured workers. I am wondering if that can possibly be set up, with some funding.

I think it would be an excellent idea for injured workers of the Province to, at least, be organized and to be able to, for example, have input into the drafting of bills on occupational health and safety which would result in regulations that would help protect workers of the Province. I would like him, if he could when he rises, to talk about the idea of having an organization. Some people on the West Coast started one just recently.

I have been talking to a number of them and they would like to see if they can L2834 June 2, 1987 Vol XL get the blessings of the Minister of Labour and his department, and the provincial government. I think it is a really good mechanism for bringing their views to the minister and to the Worker • s Compensation Board, which deaJ. s with people af tE!r thE!.Y arE! injured and so on. I would ask that the minister address those concerns. Thank you, Mr . Speaker . MR. BLANCHAR_D : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : If the minister spei:'\ks now, he closes the debate. The han. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD : Mr.

Speaker, it does ~ no-t se c:~ m as though there is anybody . elSE! who wants to speak on this bill. It is a good bill and I rather expect that it has received l:he acclaim of the Opposition and, yes, I riSE! to conclude the debate on it, Mr. Speaker. I wo u 1 d 1 ike to add res s a coup 1 e of the concerns that have been raised by members opposite. Yesterday the l:lon. the member for Fogo referred to the importance of eliminating accidents in the work place and, of courSE!, this is onE! of the main thrusts of this bill.

This bill is specific: It relates to hazards in the work place primarily through hazardous substances, chemicals and so forth, being either imported into the Province , in to the work p 1 ace , or manufactured in the Province. I would like to :i.mprE!SS upon members opposite, Mr. Speaker, that that is not the only area in which we are interested in the No. 53 R2834

elimination of accidents in the work place. We are always trying to improve the record, to eliminate accidents, and not just for the cost to the economy of the Province, to the public and to the employers who have to be assessed for the payment of benefits to claimants, but also because of the hu11_1an suffering and trauma to human beings. Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could address here the conce,rn that was raised by the hon. the member for Fogo, and just a moment ago the hon. the member for Stephenville referred to the reorganization of the board and the establishment of the Appeals Tribunal.

The reorganized board is operating. They have had orientation meetings and it is ongoing. I have not had nearly the concern that the board itself would take off and do the job that is required of them to be done as I have with the Appeals Tribuna]., and the hon. the member for Stephenville is more particularly concerned with this. The Appeals Tribunal was appointed in February. On February 16, I think it was, the balance of the act was proclaimed and the board has been put in place.

I have a very keen interest in it in that it was one of the first problems that I addressed relating· to Workers' Compensation in this Province and to problems of workers, of claimants, who have the misfortune of accidents. Approximately a week ago, Mr. Speaker, I sat down with the Tribunal, told them of my concerns that the system would begin operation, that they would commence hearings as soon as possible, and that they would get staff in place. And while I am not at liberty, Mr.

Speaker, to L2835 June 2, 1987 Vol XL say where we are at the moment in terms of recruitment of staff, I can assure hon. members opposite that I am pushing for that t:o get moving as soon as possible. Now, as far as the Tribunal is concerned, I have be .en looking around. We are always anxious to know of the experience of other provinces, what pitfalls they have run into and how they have overcome those pitfalls. I, personally, sat down w:l th thE! people responsible, with the Chief Executive Officer of the Appeals Board in Nova Scotia.

About two weeks ago I sat. in on an actual hearing, on an afternoon, i:o find out how they conducted their hearings, what their system worked like, and it was a good experience. I think we can all learn from each other in that particular area. I might say, Mr. Speaker, and I. say this with some degre!e of pride, that our Occupational Health and Safety Act is perhaps the best of any Occupational Health and Safety Act in Canada.

Again, we had the benefit, I guess, of the experience of the couple of lead provinces in Western Canada, Alberta and Saskatchewan, and we have benefitted, perhaps, from errors that they made in the beginning. In reality, as I said bE!fore, this is a specific piece of legislation, it is not an amendment to improve the act from an administrative point of view, nor is there a defect in the act. This is to bring onstream a new concept, a new programme to deal with a specific hazard in the work place, the handling of hazardous materials and the kinds of - MR. TULK: Sit down. No. 53 R2835

MR. B-LANCHARD: The hon. member is telling me to sit down. I thought Mr . Speaker, he was sincere yesterday when he was as king me questions about this. I thought he really had the welfare of the work force at heart and he was really asking sincere questions, but he is talking ouer there and he suggests I sit down. He .is not really interested in the work force. MR. TULK: (Inaudible). MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I was particularly cognizant of what the hon. the member for Naskaupi raised, the question of an unfortunate accident which resulted in the loss of life in Churchill Falls.

I guess all I can say is that there is nothing, perhaps, that this particular bill may haue that will impact on that, but within the framework of the legislation we haue, within the framework of the regulations, we are cognizant of that type of thing and I will, as he requested me to do, haue my officials look behind that with particular reference to his request about the difficulty with the payment of claims. If there is any negligence or any ouersight on the part of somebody, I will be uery happy and quick to moue to try to haue something done about that. Mr.

Speaker, the member for Buchans raised an issue with respect to spray paint. I will certainly take note of what he is saying about spray paint in the work place perhaps not under proper supervision, perhaps home jobs, and I will bring that to the attention of my officials. I do not know if it is just spray paint . All aerosol cans, I L2836 June 2, 1987 Uol XL understand. haue an element of danger. I haue read and I haue been told that they rnay be detrimental to the ozone layer and that kind of thing, but I am not going to get into that, that is rather technical. Mr.

Speaker, I do think thE!re is any need to prolong this. There is nothing to argue with in a bill such as this. I do want to say once more that we are a leader in Canada on this particular bill, and we haue been leaders in occupational health and safe!ty. The hon. member for Fogo does not like to hear this. He gaue me some pretty good prais..e . yesterday, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: Oh, guaranteed! MR. 8 LANCHA RD : -·-.. He knows that I arn doing a good j o b and I wi 11 continue to . do a good job. I am uery happy, Mr.

Speaker, to close debate on this uery important 1 it tle bi 11 and to get it into operation - Ut~ry important! It is small :ln t:E!rms of size, but, as I said, uery important in its significance to the work force. Thank you uery much, Mr. Speaker . On motion, a bill, 11

An Act fo Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act, 11 read a second t.irne, ordered referred to a Comrni t teE! of the Whole House on tomorrow . (Bill No. 18) DR. COLLINS: Order 13. Bill No. 19 . Motion, second reading of a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Emergfi:~ncy Measures Act 11 • (Bill No. 19). MR. SPEAKER: No. 53 R2836

The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The purpose of this bill is to seek approval for the transfer of the Emergency Measures Organization, EMO, from the Department of Justice to the Department of Municipal Affairs. The rationale for that is that one of the main functions of EMO is planning and preparation for disaster, and that involves a very close liaison with municipal government in Newfoundland in the preparation and testing and implementation of emergency plans.

Additionally, Your Honour, most natural disasters which occur in Newfoundland have an immediate impact upon towns and communi ties in the Province, and that was true, of course, when they had the disaster in Bishop's Falls when the Exploits River flooded its banks, and it was also true in Labrador West when the power outage occurred. In actual fact, the Director of EMO spends more time in day-to-day communications with the mayor and the various communities than he would with the Department of Justice .

Also, a canvas of the four Atlantic Provinces revealed that Newfoundland is the only Province where the Department of Justice has responsibility for the operation of EMO. In the other jurisdictions: In New Brunswick, EMO falls under Municipal Affairs; in Nova Scotia, it is with the Minister of Housing; and in Prince Edward Island the Department of Community and Cultural Affairs is responsible for the operation of EMO.

It is felt, also, of EMO to the that a transfer Departme!nt of L2837 June 2, 1987 Vol XL Municipal Affairs would provide a more rational approach toward meeting the needs of both the Province and the municipality in a mode which is separate and distinct from the Department of Justice 1 s general mandat:e to provide law enforcement and protection. It is considered, also, that the transfer of EMO to - Municipal Affairs would send a clear message to municipalities that the department is directly interested in planning for emergencies and disasters in the community. Mr. Speaker, it is ~ot a very lengthly bill.

It only has a couple of clauses in it. Clause 1 provides that the minister would be responsible now for EMO when the transfer comes about. Clause 2 provides that the-- Attorney _ - General would be responsible for , the auxiliary police who wou1d be seconded in timE!S of disaster and emergency. Clause 3 would provide for the commencement to the bill to coincide with the beginning of the new fiscal year. There are no financial implications involved in the thing. It is a fairly straightforward and simple bill. MR. DINN : Who would have the power to second? MR. DOYLE: The minister, of course. MR. GILBERT: Mr .

Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Anytime I see the minister stand No. 53 R2837

to speak in this House or to introduce any legislation. I immediately become suspicious. The department that the minister is in charge of. we all know, is the pork barrelling department in the present administration and it is becoming ever moreso. The principle of transferring EMO to· the Department of Municipal Affairs, I think. is a good one. As a former member of municipal government, I agree. I was close to the Bishop Falls one when the disaster occurred .

I realize that emergency measures is a vital part of government and that the administration of it by the Justice Department could be cumbersome at times, when we realize that the Emergency Measures Organization works more closely with the towns than they do with anyone else. So, in this matter I think the principle of the bill is good. Now that it is in the Department of Municipal Affairs, how are they going to be abJ.e to make it political? This is the big situation that always arises in the Department of Municipal Affairs: How can we make political patronage out of the Emergency Measures Organization?

How can we turn that into a plum for some of our friends and supporters? That is the whole proj~ct that government has on its mind, particularly the Department of Municipal Affairs. EVE!ry action that ar·ises in that department has a political connotation to it. The bill, as I say, in principle looks alright, but what is the political reason for this move? Is it a case that the LiberaJ. towns are not going to be provided with the service of this department right now?

Is it L2838 June 2, 1987 Vol XL going to come down to that, and the justification will be that the minister is able to say, •well, really we go on the basis of greatest need. I will set up another committee to study it to see if there really is a need for emergency measur~s in this town, but there is not, because the town voted Liberal in the last election. • MR. TULK: With EMO under his Liberal town sinks nothing done. MR. GILBERT: control, if a there will bE! That is not really thE~- point.

ThE! point is that emergency measures are set up by each of thE! towns with the idea, hopefully, that there never will be a disaster. But the fa cat is they are there. It serves the same pu~FtQs e really _ as the fire department in a town, - and now that it is under Municipal Affairs. efforts shouJ.d be made by the minister and his department to ensure that every commun:il:y in Newfoundland does have an emergency measures plan in place. I notice that it is not stated here that that is the intent oF this . Again, the thing I haVE! some grave doubts about, Mr.

Speaker, is that now we haVE! this in the government pork barrelling department. I suppose all departments are pork barrelling departme!nts, but this one is rnore blatant than the rest of l:he departments and has a chance to use its political partisanship a little more than the normal government department. You see, what frightens me is that initially the funding for water and sewerage and road paving, thE! 60/40 per cent grants in the towns throughout the Island. was not given on a political basis up to seven years ago, and this is a No. 53 R2838

documented fact that you can check with any of the town managers in any of the towns in Newfoundland who will tell you that unti l this present government took over, under the present leadership, municipal funding was done on a priority basis and on a needs basis. Seven or eight years ago, when I was a member of council in Grand Falls, the member for Grand Falls got up and made a statement that the town had been given money for street paving and money for wate'r and sewerage.

I heard one of the town officials say, 1 My God, that crowd have now made municipal grants into political patronage. 1 It was never done before. Now we see, as my colleague from Windsor - Buchans just said, the blatant way that it is done . It has gotten to the point, like anything else that is started of, I suppose, of we will help our friends and then - MR. DOYLE: Be relevant to the bill . MR. GILBERT : I am getting to the bill. Mr . Speaker, when municipal funding started to be become a political thing it was under the present minister. Now, we find they are going to put emergency measures under this .

So carrying it to the degree I should, the community of Windsor has not received funding for the last few years while its neighbor, Grand Falls, which really has not .got the same needs as the community of Windsor, has reaped the benefits of having a Tory member, to the detriment of the taxpayers of Windsor. There has been blatant political patronage. Now what is going to happen in a town in a Liberal district that wants to set up an emergency measures organization?

It is the responsibility of the L2839 June 2, 1987 Vol XL town to come to government for assistance in setting up an emergency measures plan for the town, and what I am afraid of, Mr.

Speaker, is the fact that with this new low that government has fallen to in Newfoundland, with the political patronage at the level that it is, that if a town in a Liberal district contact s the now Department of Municipal Affairs stating they want to have the services of someone from thE! emergency measures branch of ·that department to come out to providE! them with information, they will find there are no funds avai J.able for this man to travel. So, this is very much of a con.c .ern and it. is one that I feel should be looked at and pointed out.

Now, the act provides that the Minister of Municipal Affairs wo u 1 d be r E! s pons i b 1 E.! ·- for thE! - administration of .emergency _ measures in the ProvincE !. I would not ·debate that to.o strongly I I think it is a good and sound policy. The only thing is I have some grave doubts about giving it to the minister with the record that hE! has in the administration of this Province; we see it in l:he distribution of municipal grants. On a per capita basis throughout this ProvinCE! we know it is $75 per capita for Tory districts and $20 per capita for Liberal districts.

So anything that is changed or becomes the responsibility of this Department of Municipal Affairs I becomE! suspicious of, as I am sure the rest of the people in Newfoundland will when they realize the gr·av·~ situation we are creating here. Emergency measures are very important and, as we pointed out I when a disaster occurs the fact that you have an emE!r·gency measures plan in place is vitally import~nt since it is there to No. 53 R2839

provide safety, to save lives and to minimize the loss. So that is no problem. The only thing that I am concerned about is will the minister guarantee that, yes, there will be equality this time. He has said this before, , so I do not know if the guaranteE! is good enough. You know, equality in ·giving out the grants. He told the Federation last year that this year he was going to set up this committee to study and to make sure that municipal funding was done on a fair and equal basis, and on a priority basis.

Well, we saw that that was a fallacy and the minister really did not mean what he said, he skated around it and the recommendations of that Board were never made public. So I wonder now what is going to happen, what is going to be the priority list of his department? Say, for example, there are some towns in a Liberal district -that do not have an emergency measures plan in place and they contact the Department of Municipal Affairs and say, 1 We would like to have your help in doing this. 1 What is the minister going to do?

Is he going to say, well, you are in a Liberal district, or you are too far away, or you are on the list? No doubt it will be the minister 1 s favourite, 1 You are on the list. 1 He will be able to say, Yes, you are on the list, and we will send our man there sometime. Now, it might be in five years time, because we have just set up another committee within my department to make up a priority list for sending this man around the Island. Now, it is only a small department, so we have to make sure that we put it on a priority list.

And his priorities, as we all know, are based on a political basis rather than on a practical or a needs L2840 June 2, 1987 Vol XL basis. The Minister of Municipal Affairs, I suppose, has the wot~st record of political patronage of anyonE!. He is blatant. He can sit there in the House and smile when we talk about political patronage. He has the gall to smile. After saying he was going to appoint a committee to handle municipal funding this year, they- slithered upstairs in thE! Cabinet Room and they put it out by Order-in-Council.

If thE! minister really wanted to show his good faith in this bill he would makE! the records of this committee that was set up available _to show the priority basis fot~ municipal funding in Newfoundland. If he wanted to show his good faith and prove to us all that fina11y municipal funding was going to be handled on a nE!eds basi .s-, maybE! hE! . would undertake to make the . minutes and records and recommendations of this committee to Cabinet public . MR. PATTERSON : Liberal districts have three as much as I have, and I arn Tory district. MR.

GILBERT : For the member ~or Placentia, per capita basis in the districts, per person in districts? MR. PATTERSON: I am not quite sure . MR. GILBERT: times in a on a Tory thE! The member· is not quite sure. It works out to $75 per person in a Tory district. That is the funding that was provided by the Department of Municipal Affairs. The same department provided $20 per person for PE!Ople in Liberal No . 53 R2840

districts, and that is where the problem lies. And this why I become very suspicious when anything comes under this minister's department. The principle of the bill is very good, but the practicality of it is not, because I do not think the minister can administer it fairly. The thing we must try and protect in this House is the fact that everyone in Newfoundland gets their fair share from the Department of Municipal Affairs. But that does not happen, and what frightens me is that there are towns in Liberal districts that do not have an emergency measures plan in place right now.

Will the minister show his good faith by making the priority list for funding available that was recommended this year? If he can come up and say I accepted the recornmenda tions on the priority list. It was given to me by my officials and I accepted it, then we would have no problem with saying yes, this is fair and the department is being managed in a prudent and judicious way. Now the problem will be solved, no more will Tory districts get a better break than Liberal districts. It will be done on a priority basis . That is all we ask on this side, Mr .

Speaker , that the minister administer the Emergency Measures Organization in a different way than hE! does thE! dispensing of municipal funding. that the auxiliary police still under the Attorney the auxiliary police I notice force is General, force Measures them up. should be understand equipment and things L2841 related to Emergency in the areas which set This is a good idea and carried on, because I there is certain that they are issued, like that, and I would June 2, 1987 Vol XL hate to have them in the Department of Municipal Affairs where, again, they would come under this blatant, political, partisan distribution of goodies that the minister has made into an art form.

The distribution of municipal funding has reached a higher art form. DR. COLLINS : A higher plateau, is it? MR. GILBERT: I would not be surprised, but I can assure you right now that: the art form that the minister has perfected is th~ distribution of political goodies, and _ hE! wi lJ . bE! remembered in this Province after the next election for the way that he administered funding in the Department of Municipal Affairs. His name will be forever remembere!d for his cor~-tr-ibution to political patronage . in .. Newfoundland .

His name will go down with Fellows like Peron from Argentina, and people like that, for the distribution of political goodies. That is the contribution that minister is making. MR. LUSH : Dave, if therE! was a fares t firE! in a Liberal district, would they evacuate? That- was the next point. I was going to make . Last year there were forest fire!S around. I wonder how fast the minister's department would react if it. was in a Liberal district as opposed to a Tory district? And why are we suspicious? We were made this way.

We werE! not suspicious a fE!W years ago, when I first carne to this House, I thought everybody got a fair distribution. Since I have been here I have learned a whole new series of things: There is no equality. And E!quality is for people who have the power. That is the same theory that No. 53 R2841

Hitler and all dictators have used down through history: We get equality because we have the power . Distribution of funds is not equal, so now when we come - MR. PATTERSON : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Placentia . MR. DECKER: ~e is not in his seat, Mr. Speaker . MR. PATTERSON: It will not take me long to get there. MR. TULK: He should know better. He has been here long enough, I will tell you. MR. PATTERSON : It is a bit sickening to hear the hon. member talk about equality.

You should talk about equality when you are giving one leadership candidate in your party a couple of hundred thousand dollars to run, and not one penny to your colleague over there , who has been with you for years. Where is the equality? Where is the Liberalism? Answer that one. DR. COLLINS: A good point of order, Mr. Speaker . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT : To that point Speaker. of order, Mr . MR. SPEAKER : To that point of order, the member for Burgeo Espoir. L2842 June 2, 1987 the hon . Bay d' Vol XL MR. GILBERT: I am glad to see member for Placentia the common man.

It time I have heard him MR. PATTERSON : finally the come out for is the first It is no trouble to know that you are one of the common men. MR. GILBERT : - come out for the common man . It is good to see a Tory come out for the common man . MR. PATTERSON : You are not out for the common man, you are out for Wells. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. GILBERT: telling you that when the common man has a defeRdE!"f' like th e. member for Placentia, wher e else . is thE! common man going to go but up, and I arn not going to say up where. I am MR. PATTERSON : You had to get a capitalist to lead your party.

Where is the leader of the toiling masses today? MR . SPEAKER: Order, pleaSE!! MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, we have finally heard the arch Tory of all time calling down capitalism, the thing that his theory has been based on, his creed has been based on, on capitalism. MR. PATTERSON : My theory is honesty and fair play. MR . GILBERT: And capitalism. capitalism, the party. No. 53 He now backbone ai:tacks of his R2842

MR. TULK: Look at the old terrorist. Look! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. GILBERT: He is not anymore. He is going to join the han. gentlemen here to my right. He is going to join them now. He has now gone to the left. I would not be at all surprised, after ·the statements he has made here this evening, if he is sitting over here tomorrow, a terrorist who has gone to the left. DR. COLLINS : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order , the han . the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: The member is obviously being irrelevant.

He is talking about elections, where people are sitting and all that sort of thing. He is totalJ.y out of order. He is supposed to be talking on emergency measures. MR. GILBERT: To the point of order . MR. SPEAKER: To the point of the member for d'Espoir. order, the Burg eo han . Bay MR. GILBERT: I was trying to respond to the gentleman for Placentia who has had a political change of heart. He has gone from being arched right wing, well to the left of center. MR.

PATTERSON: All I want is fair play, and it is not fair play for Baker to get no money and for Wells to get a L2843 June 2, 1987 Vol XL couple of hundred thousand dollars . MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : A point of order, the han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK : I hate to interrupt my friend for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir but the hon. gentleman opposite keeps interrupting and I would ask Your Honour to name him if he keeps it up .

Now, I know how disappointed and how frustrated the han . gentleman is because he has sat in the back benches of th§_ Tory Party for years and years and thE• Premier refuses to put htm in l:he Cabinet. He is over there now gray, worn, frustrated, fatigued, eating his heart out, Mr. Speaker, and he chooses to att~u::k- rny friend _ for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir, MR. PATTERSON: I a~ not attacking you . MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I am making a point of order and just look at him, he cannot control himself. Perhaps what he should do is clean his own house, go down to Mr . Ryan and Mr.

Dobbin and a~k them about the trust fund that has been set up for the han. gentleman who occupies the chair of Premier . DR. COLLINS: To that point of order . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Finance to the point of order. DR. COLLINS : The Opposition cannot find anything wrong with this bill so they get off with these irrelevancies, attacking thE! No. 53 R2843

member. He is in the House. anything about he should let the debate. MR. SPEAKER: the If the the quietest member he cannot say bill, I think minister close To that point of order, there is no point of order, just a difference of opinion between two hon. gentlemen. I am going to ask the hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir to be relevant in his speech pertaining to the bill. The hon. the member for Burg eo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, we just heard the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) give his theories on government and he has changed his political philosophy.

In regard to the bill, we have grave concerns about anything that is transferred to the Department of Municipal Affairs. That is the point of my comments on this bill, Mr. Speaker. Anything that this department is given it turns it immediately into a political partisan distribution. So I am concerned that now the Emergency Measures Organization t~.dll reach this level. Before it was rather a low-key department in the Department of Justice and did a reasonably good job. Now I have some concern because of the direction that the pE!Ople who are transferred are going to get.

I would conclude by saying that we notice the minister said there are no finances involved in it. It is not a financial thing, is it? MR. DOYLE: L2844 June 2, 1987 Vol XL No financial implications . MR. GILBERT : No financial implications. Well, the only thing about it is I would say there are financial implications in the fact that the operation of that department is there in his departmt:!nt. He can make it a financial thing when it comes to providing this SE!rViCE! to Liberal districts. T~at is my whole point.

Everything E!lse that he has e0er done in his department has been a political par·tisan agreement or arrangement. So I would say that this will come under that same broad policy of political partisanshiP-. MR. K. AYLWARD: ·Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Stephenville . MR. K. AYLWARD: member Thank you, Mr . Speaker. for . What a pleasure!, Mr. SpeakE!r', to speak to this bill today. I concur with my colleague, Mr. Speaker, who was quite good in his remarks to the minister and to the government side even though they did not understand thE! me!asure of what he was talking about.

I want to say that I concur with his remarks. Mr. Speaker, while I am very happy to see it going into the Department of Municipal Affairs, I am quite concerned as to what kind of priority it is going to have with his department. In my are!a, out in Bay St. George on the West Coast of thE! province, Mr. Speaker, we have a group of people out there who have worked very hard over the last three to four years, a ground SE!arch and rE!Scue No. 53 R2844

team of forty-one members, who have raised money on their own, who have bought their own equipment, who have put proposals forward to the provincial government and has seen them fall on deaf ears. I hope that now that the Ministe!r of Municipal Affairs has taken over the responsibility of EMO he will respond to those responsibilities, take them wholeheartedly and try to deal with the problem these organizations are having with access to equipment and proper funding. Mr.

Speaker, a proposal put forward by the organization from the district which I represent is for a joint emergency planning and priorities organization. They have put a proposal over the last six or seven months to the provincial government, Mr. Speaker, to the Department of Justice, which told them then to put the proposal to the Department of Municipal Affairs.

Now, they sent that proposal in and the response from the deputy minister on January 29, 1987 was that they did not have any funding and that it could not be granted due to the fact that his department 1 s budget does not provide funding for such programmes, 11 nor, to my knowledge, have funding or cost-sharing arrangements been approved for this programme by the federal or provincial governments.

I suggest you retain possession of these proposals until such time as a funding agreement is reached. 11 This was a response from the Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs to a proposal made by Stephenville, by the area, a proposal made by the organization out in my area, and the Department L2845 June 2, 1987 Vol XL of Municipal Affairs four months ago or five months ago did not know about any funding prograrmnE!S and did not know or did not want to accept any responsibility for this organization. Now they are being given the responsibility, Mr.

Speaker, and I am just wondering are they going to take it and shove it off to the side or are they going to do something with it. The proposal put forward, Mr. Speaker, by the organization in my area is quite lengthy, quite good. It gives some statistics on the training of these people. There are four _.or five organizations around the Province which I feel are very important to the Province. They are very important to the policE! who haVE! to go searching for people and so on. Some of the training, for example, that some of these people have done is shown herE!. The Bay St.

George organization are all senior St. John Ambulance pE!Ople; two members per team are CPR training people; all members have eight months of basic training plus continuous ongoing training; all member·s have a canoe course Level I and some Lev-el II; all membE!rs are trained in hypothermia techniques; all members have map and compass training; all mernbE!rs have knowledge of shelter and camp procedures; some members are cJ~oss country "ski instructors; all members are versed in snowshoe:lng and are also excellent woods people.

That is just an example of some of the training that they have been doing on their own while trying to get provincial monies. This organization and these organizations are all volunteer, No. 53 R2845

have not got a dollar of provincial government money and, in many cases, they have their own banquets and so on to try and raise dollars. I think it is time now that it is under another department I would hope that this government will respond to these organizations around the Province and put forward a policy. I hope that the minister will clarify this when he stands that they will now have or will be allocating funding to these organizations who seek it because I feel that they should be supported to the hi 1 t, as much as possible.

They are professional people who take their job very seriously and have saved the lives of some people in many areas, Mr. Speaker. They are called upon in times of emergency. Unless this government decides to provide some sort of help to them, many of these volunteers, who give so much of their time and hours and finances, are going to find that their energy may be wavering after a while. Just bringing in a bill is nice and dandy, Mr. Speaker, but you also have to act on the bill .

You have to have a policy which will see monies allocated for these volunteer groups which perform such an essential service in this Province. I have some examples, Mr. Speaker, of some of the things that they are looking for and some of the costs that they incur. At the present time this o