Manitoba Hansard — 25 March 1976 (Sitting 51, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-51

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXIII No. 51 2:30p.m., Thursday, March 25th, 1976. Third Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30p.m., Thursday, March 25, 1976 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. PRESENTING PETITIONS 1523 MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Honourable Member for St. Johns, I beg to present the Petition of the Jewish Foundation of Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. CLERK: The Petition of K.F. Burrows and Others, praying for the passing of The Manitoba Chartered Secretaries and Administrators Act. MR.

SPEAKER: Presenting reports by Standing and Special Committees. The Honourable Member for Gimli. REPORTS BY STANDING COMMITTEES MR. JOHN C. GOTTFRIED (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Committee on Municipal Affairs. MR. CLERK: Your Committee met for organization on Monday, March 22, 1976, and appointed Mr. Gottfried as Chairman. By resolution of the Committee, the quorum was set at seven (7) members for all subsequent meetings. Your Committee also heard representations on Bill No. 26,

an Act Respecting The City of Brandon, as follows: His Worship Mayor E. C. Gorrie, City of Brandon, Mr. Henry Neudorf, Brandon Chamber of Commerce, Alderman Ron Cayer, City of Brandon, Mr. Mert Bosniak, Brandon Ratepayers' Association, Mr. George Canart, Private Citizen, Your Committee considered Bill No. 26 -

An Act respecting the City of Brandon, on March 24, 1976, and has agreed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gimli. MR. GOTTFRIED: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerson, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Mines. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management) (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to announce that the House will not sit, to facilitate honourable members attending the Royal Manitoba Provincial Exhibition and Winter Fair, next Wednesday. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Minis terial Statements or Tabling of Reports? Introduction of Bills. The Honourable Attorney-General. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk) introduced Bill No. 39,

an Act to amend The Fatal Accidents Act and The Limitation of Actions Act.

1524 March 25, 1976 ORA L QUE STI ONS MR. SPEAKER: Questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Leader of the Official Opposition) (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Health. I wonder if the Minister can indicate what measures are being taken in Manitoba in relation to the moves made in the United States for complete vaccination of the total population of the U.S. as a protective measure against the Swine Flu that is reported to be a hazard in that country. Has the Minister's Department been examining this and has he any recommendation to make to the House? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (Minister of Health and Social Development) (St. Bonifac e): Mr. Speaker, there is no epidemic in Canada but there is no doubt we'r e real concerned with the outbreak of Swine Fever which is the same virus as the 1919 flu. There is no serum now so we have been in touch with the Federal Department of Health and We lfare. The important thing now is to get that serum, that will take a few months, until October I think, so this is being done.

The Federal Government is asking the provinces to co-operate in that the purchasing has been done centrally. We 'v e done that. There is no point arguing now who should pay fo r it, the main thing is to get the serum going. This is being done and we will have a policy after that. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, just for clarification. I assume under Canadian structure of government this reponsibility ends up with the provinces rather than with the central government as it does in the United States. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker , we work together.

My honourable friend knows that there is a Federal Government of Health and Welfa re . The main thing, as I stated , is to get this serum manufactured immediately. We have been in contact with the Federal Government; they have asked us to co-o perate in the central purchasing, and that's for all the provinces , to get the serum first and there has been no decision as to how the cost will be done. I would imagine the Province of Manitoba will have to bear certainly a portion of the cost but not all of it. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Ag riculture. I would like to ask the Minister of Ag riculture, in light of the concern over Swine Fever, if the Province 'of Manitoba is making any repres entation to the Federal Government regarding an upgrading of the quota on eggs? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUE L USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (L ac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker , I am not sure that I have connected in my mind swine with eggs. Perhaps the member might elaborate. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I unders tand that the chicken will play a very important

part in the manuf acture of the serum. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. EN NS (l.akeside) : Mr. Speaker , I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. Can he indicate whether or not he has come to any further conclusions with respect to the Crocus Food Plant, proposed Crocuc Plant at Selkirk� MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Ag riculture. MR. USKIW : Well no, Mr. Speaker . There have been no new developments that one could relate to at the moment although there are a number of meetings that are yet to be held in that respect. MR.

ENNS: Can the Honourable Minister indicate to me whether or not the subject matter of the expanded facilities formed any part of his discuss ions recently with the federal authorities in the overall overview of the milk industry that he had? MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. EN NS: Well I tried bef ore, Mr. Speaker, but I'll try one more time. Does the Honourable Minister of Agri culture feel now that perhaps members of the opposition are entitled to see the feasibility study on this $7,000,000 to $9,000,000 project? MR . USKIW : Mr. Speaker , I don't know that anything has changed in that conne ction.

The Honourable Member for Lakeside knows fully, and he should know, he was Minister for a number of years , that internal studies are a matter for the department's concerned and not a matter for the members of the opposition.

March 25, 1976 1525 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the Minister in charge of Lotteries. He indicated a couple of days ago that he would press Cabinet for a lottery inquiry. Is he now prepared to call such an inquiry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, at no time, I repeat, at no time did I say that I would press Cabinet for an inquiry. I stated in the House when that was suggested that it wouldn't be a bad idea. I said that personally I would welcome it.

I've also stated that this would be an inquiry after the fact. The new policies have been announced and we've had enough publicity on this lottery. Either we stop the lottery and deprive certain groups of revenue or we give these people a chance to run their lottery and this is what they wish. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Public Works. Would he specifiy to the House his complaint that he has made to the Law Society with respect to Mr.

Ken Arenson who is representing residents on Logan Avenue who are fighting an appropriation with his department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HON. RUSSELL DOERN (Minister of Public Works) (Elm wood): Mr. Speaker, Mr. Arenson has entered the political arena and in my judgment has far exceeded his role as a lawyer representing a client. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow up a question similar to the question posed by my colleague from Lakeside.

I'd like to ask the Minister if he can tell the House whether the Manitoba Milk Producers' Marketing Board have a complete and full study of the Crocus Food Plant. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: What I would suspect is that they either have it in possession or have seen it. MR. EINARSON: I'd like to ask a second questicrr, Mr. Speaker, and ask the Minister if he would have any objections if I were to request from the Manitoba Milk Producers' Marketing Board that feasibility study. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, obviously the Member for Rock Lake could request of anyone whatever he wishes. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I am asking - for a second time, I'm asking if the Minister would have any objections to that request ••. MR. SPEAKER: Order please . The question if repetitive. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Public Works. Regarding the Logan-Gwendoline garage, is the Minister going to change his expropriation procedures to allow expropriation without serious losses to individuals? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR.

DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that the procedure of expropriation allows an individual to first of all receive a hearing from the Land Value Appraisal Commission after which he may choose to settle. If not, it will go to court and it will be arbitrated by a third party who will provide an independent judgment. MR. WILSON: A supplementary question. I wonder, in light of the lengthy delays, does the government plan to pay all the legal fees of the Liberal lawyer, Mr. Arenson? MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, we have had lengthy deliberations because we have been trying to give the people an opportunity to come to a settlement. When the settlements are arrived at it is part of the normal process to pay for reasonable appraisal and reasonable legal fees. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR. LIDYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I'd like also to address a question to the Minister of Public Works.

Could he account for the discrepancy that appeared in the fact that on February 17th he announced to residents of the Logan area that were about to have their properties taken over by the government that he'd be prepared to negotiate when

1526 March 25, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• in fact he had initiated expropriation proceedings on February 11th. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR.DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I met with a group of citizens whom I took to be from a particular

section of the expropriation; namely a site where the Environmental Lab will be built, and I indicated to those people that we would refer the matter to the Land Value Appraisal Commission. It happened that I learned later that one person in that delegation was from another section, all of whom had been informed that they were going to be expropriated three weeks prior to that meeting on Ja nuary 23rd. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister responsible for the MDC and the late Saunders Aircraft, may it rest in peace.

Is it correct that during the Federal Election Campaign of 1974 the Prime Minister of Canada promised to buy two of Saunders' planes for the Western Air Service and now Otto Lang is trying to peddle two twin Otters which were built by the aircraft company recently purchased by the Federal Government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, during the Federal Election Campaign the Prime Minister of Canada indicated that two ST-27s would be purchased from Saunders Aircraft, not ST-28s as is now being suggested - the plane of the future - but the ST-27, the program for completion of which is completed and the planes are available. The Federal Government has reneged, has welched on its promise to purchase these two planes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs.

I wonder if the Minister could advise the House in view of the recent report of the northern postal service being as archaic as the old York boat days in some of our regions in the north, I wonder if the Minister could advise if his department has made representation to the Postmaster-General on this fact MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. RONAID McBRYDE (Minister of Northern Affairs) (The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, the communities concerned about postal service have made representations to the Federal Government; the MLAs for the areas affected have made representations to the Federal Govern ment but the department as a department has not made representation to the Federal Govern ment on this matter. MR. MINAKER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I won der if the Minister could advise if he intends to make representation to the Postmaster-General as the Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, since the MP for the area doesn't seem to be able to do his job very well maybe I'll have to assist him in that. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. I wonder if the Minister could confirm that the specifications for the construction of the Crocus Food Plant have been completed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: I believe the member is referring to the design of the plant. I believe those have been, yes. MR. MINAKER: I wonder, Mr.

Speaker - a supplementary question to the same Minister - if the Minister can advise if a consulting engineering firm has been appointed for this project. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, it has not yet been decided as to whether or not the project is proceeding. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

I wonder if he can indicate the information provided by the Geological Survey of Canada indicating a fairly major uranium find in northwestern Manitoba, whether or not this is being pursued by any companies, private companies, or the government's agency with a view to developments. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines.

March 25, 1976 1527 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I can't be as optimistic about the development as my honourable friend. I couldn't call it a find. I think it would be more proper to refer to it as a geological anomaly which indicates the possibility of uranium. The honourable member will be aware that we found a mineralized zone which is one step beyond an anomaly and it didn't result in an economic development.

The honourable member is correct in assuming however, that this probably will result in exploration activities either by the private sector or the public sector and the Mineral Exploration Company would proceed in acco!l.'dance with its own Board if they felt that it was a good thing to do. In any event as a result of the regulations that we have enacted, the public will be a participating shareholder at its option in 50 percent of an exploration program that would be started in the private sector. I'm advised that there now seems to be some interest in the project which would prove, Mr.

Speaker, that whether or not exploration occurs depends on the existence of uranium, not on the existence of the particular Minister of Mines or the taxation policy. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is the information that had been produced by the Geological Survey of Canada, has the information that has now been produced by the GSC on this matter, has it indicated or defined a larger body of potential uranium ore than what was known there before? Perhaps a supplementary question to that. Is there a company doing exploration work at the present time other than the work that was done by GSC? MR.

GREEN: Mr. Speaker, as to whether there are other companies doing work I can't answer. If it was an exploration program of the type that was filed with the department I would doubt it very much. The work that is being done, the exploration work that is being done, as I understand it, is being done by the public of Canada, that they have made the exploration. That means everybody in this room plus the people in the other provinces. They have invested the money in the exploration work. The knowledge is then made available to private companies who can then hop on to public expenditures and try to make a dollar.

That is the system that has been employed for years and years. What is now the situation is that if there is an exploration program the public of Manitoba will be able to participate in that exploration program. As to whether it is new or un-new information, all I can say, Mr. Speaker, is that I am advised that this is the results of the exploration program, by the way, in which Manitoba has been a participant to this extent; that we have said that we will do certain work; the _ Federal Government has said that they will do certain work.

This happens to be the uranium work which was done by the Federal Government. That is then turned over, jnst as our maps are turned over, moneys that have been invested by the public under the Conservative administration and under the New Democratic Party administration are turned over to people who are interested, and if they see something interesting they develop further. I would be of the opinion that what they are now seeing is something new that was not seen before. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. McGREGOR: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. It's to do with two headings in both of our Winnipeg papers: "Government Racing Profits Excessive", "Government Tax a Bad Bet at Downs Racetrack". The question is: can the Minister confirm now that a new tax structure is being con templated and when will the announcement be made to this Legislature? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. RENE TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (Springfield): Well, Mr.

Speaker, in regard to the first part of the question I don't find the undivided revenue being excessive in the year 1975.· I would like to see more. On the second part of the question, I've indicated to the honourable member, I believe last week, that there was a review being had within the department itself and a recommendation was made by the Horseracing Commission as contained in the report that I tabled in the House yesterday. In regard to the policy decision that's up to government to decide hopefully in due course. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose.

1528 March 25, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Rose): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Health and Social Development. I'd like to know, Mr. Speaker, if it is correct that the Crothall Agencies has offered to do housekeeping at Misericordia Hospital with a reduced work force thus saving the taxpayers $300,000, but that the Hospital Board Chairman, Mr. Robert Steen, has insisted that there be no reduction of the work force no matter what the cost to the taxpayers in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDlNS: Mr.

Speaker, I think my honourable friend will have to ask the question to the Chairman of the Board. As far as the department or the Manitoba Health Services Commission is concerned this is something that we are interested in because of the standard. This is the responsibility that we have. We are discussing this with the hospital and the Manitoba Health Services Commission has requested the Board of the hospital not to do anything before talking to them as per the contract. MR. ADAM: I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Minister could advise me if this Robert Steen who wants to be a hero at the taxpayers' expense is the same Robert Steen who is a member of the City Council, which is asking this government to pay for its bills? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. I'll repeat it again clearly so the Minister will not misunder stand it. I wonder if the Minister could advise the House if a consulting engineering firm has been appointed for the Crocus Food Plant project? l':ffi.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: I am not aware of one1 Mr. Speaker. Of course I have not discussed the matter with the Corporation. MR. MINAKER: A supplementary question to the Honourable Minister. wonder if the Minister can advise the House if the Crocus Food Plant or Corporation has tendered for the milk and whey drying equipment for the plant? MR. USKIW: I wouldn't know, Mr. Speaker, but if the member wishes I would attempt to find out for him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Point Douglas. REV. DONA ID MALlNOWSKI (Point Douglas): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development, if I may. In light of the question asked yesterday by the Honourable Member for Rhineland about how many people are occupying $135-a-d ay hospital beds who should be in nursing homes, I would like to ask how many nursing home beds existed in Manitoba in June, 1969 ••• MR. SPEAKER: Order for Return. Order please. I suggest the honourable member file an Order for Return. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I address a question to the Honourable the Minister for Public Works.

It refers to his earlier reply when he said that there was one group in the Logan Avenue area under expropriation and there was another group being negotiated with. Could he explain to the House the two different approaches in the same area? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. DOERN: Very simply, Mr. Speaker. In these two parcels, one containing six homes, the other nine homes, we felt that in the case where there were six homes that we had run into an impasse and that there would be little chance of any future settlements so we expropriated.

In the case of the nine residents we felt over a period of time we might reach more settlements. MR. G. JOHNSTON: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Were both groups offered the same negotiating rights or time periods or agreements? MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, we attempted to negotiate with both groups and since we assumed that in the one case no future settlements looked likely and that we had exhausted our negotiations, that we moved to expropriation. In the other case we again attempted to give these people another opportunity by referring the matter to the

March 25, 1976 1529 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. DOERN cont'd) • • • . . Land Value Appraisal Commission. MR. G. JOHNSTON: A supplementary to the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. Because one of these groups retained what the Minister calls a political activist lawyer, will this prejudice their case with the Minister? MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I think it will not prejudice their case at all. But when you have a frustrated lawyer working for you, who is attempting to get into the political arena, then anything can happen. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary.

The Minister does not consider working with the political activist lawyers on his side then, as long as they are not frustrating, is that correct? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, if it is necessary, I suppose it's necessary, to indicate very clearly that the policy of the government is, in acquiring property for public purposes, to make a reasonable effort in the initial instance to obtain by offer and negotiation.

If on the basis of evidence it would seem that this is not probable, the prospect isn't there, then to move to the well-established expropriation procedures which means to have an external third party or the judiciary decide true value. We do not depart from that, Sir, and we certainly resist the efforts to have us involved in bidding up the price through publicity in the newspapers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I address this question to the Honourable the Attorney-General.

Can the Attorney-General give any information as to the status of the extradition proceedings against either Mr. Kasser in Europe or any United States citizens at this time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: No, Mr. Speaker, except to the extent that efforts are still under way both in Austria and in Switzerland in connection with efforts to prosecute those that were named in the earlier indictments and to obtain extraditions. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Another question to the same Minister, Mr. Speaker.

Because of the delays that have occurred in the CFI case, is there any reason why the government cannot proceed against Canadian citizens who have charges pending against them in this case? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we do think that it would be more proper to proceed as against the main principals in the case rather than to deal with secondary figures in the entire matter, at least to ascertain whether or not we are going to be successful in returning the principles to Canada so that they can face trial rather than to proceed, because of delays, and obtain the extradition against secondary figures first.

I just might say insofar as the extradition proceedings are concerned, that the earlier order which had involved the rescinding of Dr. Kasser's citizenship, which was not completed because of a defect insofar as the serving of that order was concerned upon Dr. Kasser and/or his lawyer, that that entire matter is presently under review by the senior officials in the Department of Justice in the State of Tyrol in Austria. ORDERS OF THE DAY - ORDERS FOR RETURN MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Order for Return. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, I should like to move, seconded by the Member for Fort Garry, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following informa- tion: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Northern Affairs under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed.

1530 ORDERS FOR RETURN (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. March 25, 1976 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following informa- tion: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Departm ent of Municipal Affairs under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THA.T an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management under

section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal As sent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Legislation under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each perso n appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and profess ional qualification of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the perm anent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Labour under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each.

March 25, 1976 1531 ORDERS FOR RETURN (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Industry and Commerce under

section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualification of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Highways under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualification of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Health and Social Development under

section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service.

THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Finance under secti0n 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number and mimes of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service.

1532 March 25, 1976 ORDERS FOR RETURN (MR. JORGENSON cont'

d) THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the munber of staff appointments made by the Department of Tour ism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) 3) 4) 5) 6) 7) The name of each person appointed, The contractual terms of each person appointed. The salary of each employee. The date of each appointment. The educational and professional qualification of each. The number and names of members of this group who have the permanent Civil Service. since moved into THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Public Wor ks under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each per son appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of the Executive Council under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each per son appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the numbe;r of staff appointments made by the Department of Education under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed, 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: I

March 25, 1976 1533 ORDERS FOR RETURN (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Co-operative Development under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualification of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department cf Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) 3) 4) 5) 6) 7) The name of each person appointed. The contractual terms of each person appointed. The salary of each employee. The date of each appointment. The educational and professional qualifications of each. The number and names of members of this group who have into the permanent Civil Service. since moved THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Depar tment of Colleges and Univers ities Affairs under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of the Civil Service Commission under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Servi ce Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary, of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of the Attorney-General under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976.

1534 March 25, 1976 ORDERS FOR RETURN (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number a:ild names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Ag riculture under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1) What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Urban Affairs under

section 3 (1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning June 14, 1974 (Royal Assent) and ending February 29, 1976. 2) The name of each person appointed. 3) The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4) The salary of each employee. 5) The date of each appointment. 6) The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7) The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. I wonder if the government would want to deal with all of them. MR. SC HREYER: On a point of order Mr. Speaker, if I may. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR.

SC HREYER: If it is agreeable to the Honourable Member for Morris , we could take the Orders for Return as read - all of them since they are of one kind - and take this opportunity, Sir, to indicate to the honourable member that we accept the Orders for Return en bloc so to speak. Without making a quibbling point of it, there are three points I would like to make. One is the reference to perso ns appointed. The phraseology is "appointed" although stri ctly speaking they are not appointed by order-in-council but hired on contract.

The other is the reference to them as "staff" and again they are not staff in the Civil Service Act sense of the word but as I say this is not to make too fine a point of it. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, I would indicate that in accepting the Orders we accept them exactly as questioned here with the possible exception of No. 6 which we have to regard as being perhaps an unnecessary intrusion into privacy in the sense that we will answer all of the questions, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - these are matters of either contract record, they are on file after all, but to the extent that the contract provides the information, we will provide it here in terms of their education and other qualifications to the extent that that is relevant in the contract, that will be provided.

Otherwise., I simplypoint out that we have no intention of resear ching the curriculum vita of all the persons involved. MR. SPEAK ER: Is it agreed to that procedure? (Agreed) Very well. Order for Return. The Honourable Member for Birtle .;... Russell. I

March 25, 1976 ORDERS FOR RETURN MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa, 1535 THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following: 1. The number of applications that have been heard by the Manitoba courts for permission to wiretap in Manitoba in (a) 1974, (b) 1975. 2. The number of permits issued to wiretap in Manitoba in (a) 1974, (b) 1975. 3. The number of applications for permission to wiretap in Manitoba that were initiated by the Department of the Attorney-General in (a) 1974, (b) 1975. 4.

The number of investigations initiated by the Department of the Attorney- General in which wiretap evidence was used in (a) 1974, (b) 1975. 5. The number of prosecutions initiated by the Department of the Attorney General in which wiretap evidence was used and in which the prosecution was success ful in (a) 1974, (b) 1975. MOTION presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we'll comply with the request for information in the Order for Return. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, would you please proceed with. the second readings of bills. BILL NO •. 17 -A N ACT TO AMEND THE LIQUOR. CONTROL ACT MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Bill 17 proposed by the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In speak- ing about this bill, I know that it's referring to the delivery of wine to residences.

However since it is something that affects The Liquor Act, I am going to take the opportunity to express my opinions on some of the things in relation to liquor and the way it is handled in the Province of Manitoba. I would begin by saying that if I thought it was possible to legislate liquor out of the province completely, I would do it. But I know that that is not possible so we have to try to do what we figure is next best. This should mean how we can control the liquor so it isn't used to too great an extent. Many different methods have been tried and have not been too successful.

I feel that in Manitoba we made a very grave mistake when we reduced the drinking age from 21 to 18. I think that was too big of a step to be taken all at once and that it wasn't a wise one. At the time I personally wasn't for it but it went through. I think possibly I should say that possibly the members over there knew better probably too when they did this. But they proposed lowering the age of majority and then it was suggested that it go all across the board.

I suggest to you that this became a political thing, that the reason it was lowered to 18 at that time was the party in power was trying to get the vote of the 18-year-old people and this is why it was lowered. Mr. Speaker, we have all sorts of information that shows that we have gone too far. We have all made mistakes and all governments make mistakes and I think we

1536 March 25, 1976 BILL 17 (MR. HENDERSON cont'd) ••.•• went too far. I want to read from a few articles here and some of them are from United States but there's other articles that are saying just the same thing in Manitoba and in Canada. Here's what it says: "An estimated 1,130, 000 youths between 12 and 17 get drunk, not just high, at least once a week. Among 12 year olds, two percent get drunk once a week. Among male high school seniors, 14 percent get drunk at least once a week," and it goes on like this. Here's one of our own News Releases.

It says that lowering the drinking age indicates that there seems to be a significant increase in driving fatalities among the 18 to 21-year-old age group. Age restriction in Manitoba was made from 21 to 18," and then it goes on like that. Here's an

article and it's from St. Paul, Minnesota, and as I was saying I think the same things are happening over there. It goes on to say about the percentage of people that have been involved in accidents that have been found to have liquor in their blood. It says that in 1970 when the drinking age was 21 there was only 16 percent of people in that age group that ever showed up with liquor in their blood and now it's up to 20. So it shows that there's more of it being consumed.

We also know that it's been even aff ecting the people who are adults because there's more and more liquor being drunk these days and if the habit is created when you're young, it carries on when you become older. Here we have from the liquor laws of Manitoba and it states in here, where it's stating about the hotels that have lost their licences and so forth what's happened, that there's been 20 hotels suspended because of juveniles under 18 years of. age drinking. So that shows that the young people are drinking more and causing the hotels proble::ns.

This is the .Civil Service Commission where it says here: "The govermnent as an employer has become increasingly aware of administration problems and cost resulting from alcoholism and other behavioural health problems in the Civil Service. It is estimated that ten percent of employees are responsible for 80 percent of the absentees and that of these 15 percent are problems drinkers. 11 So we really know that drinking is a problem in Manitoba. It's a problem all over the world I suppose but I think that we are not going in the right way to try and control it in Manitoba. I have another

article here. I don't suppose I'll read this. It states more about the ages where they're drinking and it says that people, 13 and 14-year-olds have been found under the influence of alcohol that has been given to them either from other people that got it - well maybe they were old enough and they were given it, but maybe these people that gave it to them were 18 years of age. So we see that by lowering the drinking age to 18 that actually now we have people who are 14 and 15 who are getting drunk occasionally and that means that they're drinking quite a bit.

Because when we know about them getting drunk it means that they're drinking quite often. This has led to vandalism and more accidents and trouble in the homes and everything. We cannot begin to name all the different things, the way it's hurting our society. I have here, and the Member from LaVerendrye mentioned it yesterday, about ten people in a certain accident that were killed and it was because of liquor. So I wonder if we as legislators are really doing the right thing when we leave the drinking age at 18 when there's so many accidents happening these days.

It refers to the Liquor Commissions when they brought out this here wine which is supposed to be not as strong but actually in their advertising they're really doing false advertising because they're stating that it's cheaper. Well it's cheaper but if you're referring to the alcohol content in the bottles, then it's more expensive, in fact it's more expensive by four percent. So it shows that the govermnent itself is really doing false advertising. You'd wonder why a government would really promote it in a way like that.

So we've been talking about the result of this drinking causing more welfare cases, broken homes, more alcoholics, more loss of time of people from work because of, we',ll say hangovers or health reasons. We're having more accidents on the high ways and it's leading to the use of drugs because often when these young people get drinking it leads to drugs. It's ruining their health and I think you could go on and on

March 25, 1976 1537 BILL 17 (MR. HENDERSON cont'd) • . . . • to name many other things. We have many treatment agencies in Manitoba, both private and public, and these are doing the best they can but it seems at times that we are working in an opposite direction and not trying to help them. We have many native organizations which are trying to help their own people; we have the Alcohol Foundation; we have the A.A. Society and I don't know how many more. And I don't know how many welfare agencies that we have.

We have social workers and counsellors and everything till they're pretty near coming out of our ears you know. A lot of this, if you are really truthful about it, is because of the use and abuse of liquor. What are we in Manitoba doing about this problem now? It really doesn't seem as if we're doing anything and in fact it seems as if we're going the other way because we're offering now to be giving them the delivery of wine. I don't see why we should do this. I think that the province should be holding back on it rather than make it more accessible for people.

When you talk about the delivery of wine, I don't know, maybe the Provincial Governme nt is looking ahead a little bit more prudently than I thought because maybe by the delivery of wine they'll save an awful lot of money in the3e taxi fares that the Indian and some of the welfare people use when they go away downtown in the taxis to pick up their wine, you know, and their beer. I think that we in Manitoba as legislators and as people should be starting a crusade to reduce the amount of liquor that is consumed.

We should try and make it harder for people that are under-age to be able to get liquor and I think we could do this by having youths having to produce their identification cards and have their pict"lrre on it. Because this must be hard for people who are selling liquor, whether they're in hotels or whether they're in government stores. I refer to government stores because a hotelman can't sell to a man when he's had too much and I've seen people come and go from the government stores when they could hardly make it. So I think that your government stores could be cracked down.

I also think that the drinking age should be raised to 19 --(Interjection)-- Yes. The member has said that we should drink milk. That would be good but we know that that wouldn't work. We have to realize that you know, you just can't legislate it out completely. Society wouldn't have it that way. There'd be bootleggers and everything all over the place and there'd be bad liquor and there'd be people dying from the re sults of it as well as suffering I guess. So I think we should be trying to bring in regulations that makes liquor less accessible to the people so that they won't consume more.

You know I think we should be doing what we can in the way of curing the people that have become alcoholics and have gone too far with it. I think these people do need care so as to be helped. But I think that we should be doing something in the way of preventing it and I think one of the steps we could do right now in the way of preventing it would be to raise the drinking age to 19 again. I also think that we shouldn't be passing a bill like this which means that they're going to get delivery of wine. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Corrections. HON. J.

R. (Bud) BOYCE (Minister responsible for Corrections and Rehabilitation) (Winnipeg Centre): I intend to be brief. The opening of the bill of course gives the people an occasion to discuss their concerns, but in checking through the Minister's bill in this regard, I can't find any relationship between the remarks of the Member for Pembina relative to the suggested amendments. Nevertheless I share some of these concerns and I'll be glad to address myself to them under my Estimates. I just want it to be on record that I wasn't sitting here silently listening without some response to some of the questions raised. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

1538 March 25, 1976 BILL NO. 18 -A N ACT TO AMEND THE CLEAN ENVIRONMENT ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 18. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN : Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak in support of Bill 18 notwith standing the views of some of my colleagues who feel that it is a wicked plot produced by the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources to split the Progressive Conservative caucus .

There obvious ly are going to be conflicting views across the political and social spectrum on the measure that is the basic direction of the bill but I feel strongly that the step that is being taken is one that is justified in the light of circumstances, particularly in the urban area in immediate past summers and as a consequence, as I say, I support the bill regardless of what kind of diff erences on the personal level that all of us may have both within and without our respective caucuses. I read with great interest the comments of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge on the bill.

I think I was out of the Chamber at the time that he was speaking but I know it's a subject that involves an area, namely the environment, in which he's very interested and as a consequence I took great pains to read very carefully the address that he made on this bill as it's reported in the Hansard for March 12th, Sir. I think that he has made some effective and telling points and made them well and he has said some things that certainly generate thought and consideration by all of us who are interested in this kind of measure.

But I think, Sir, that the Member for Fort Rouge misplaces his confidence when he suggests that the authority that previously had been vested in the Clean Environment Commission for environmental matters such as spraying and the use of pesticides and insecticides and other substances of that type, when he suggests that the use of them should remain vested in the Clean Environment Commission and that the decision for using them should remain vested in the Clean Environment Commission, I believe that he is demonstrating a misplaced confidence in that body.

The Member for Fort Rouge and indeed my colleague the Member for Lakeside both made much of the fact that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources appeared to be, through this bill, ducking out from under a responsibility that is rightfully and historically his. My colleague from Lake side described the measure as a cop-out on the part of the Minister. In analogous terms the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge suggested that if the Minister can't stand the heat then he should get out of the kitchen. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I must disagree with the thrust taken by both honourable members on that point for I feel that if the Minister feels there is too much heat in this area and if the Minister wants to get out of the kitchen I say for Heaven's sake, let him get out of the kitchen. If this government wants to get out of the kitchen I say for Heaven's sake, let it get out of the kitchen.

If the New Democratic centralists want to restore and return some responsibility to the individual, whether it be an individual citizen or an individual municipality, I for one, Sir, welcome that step and I say let them restore that individual responsibility and authority to the individual citizen or the individual municipality.

What in effect is happening here is that that area of responsibility for making decisions with respect to the use of insecticides and pesticides in times of need, formerly as we've noted vested with the Clean Environment Commission, is under the proposals contained in Bill No. 18 being placed in the hands of the individual munici palities, and far from being a cop-out, as the Member for Lakeside and the Member for Fort Rouge seem to feel, I think it's a welcome step.

I believe that individual municipalities have not only the expertise but have the right and the rightful responsi bility to make decisions of that kind, particularly when there are emergencies facing their immediate constituents . The Member for Fort Rouge has dwelt at some length on the fact that pesticide$, insecticides, other substances of that nature sprayed into the air know no political boundaries. I accept that, Mr. Speaker. I don't challenge that position.

But I think he weakens his case when he goes on to suggest that there could be toxic results ensuing from the mixture of these different substances some thousands of feet up in the atmos phere. I think he weakens his case when he suggests that there may be evidence begin to pile up in the very near futur e of real environmental hazards that we face as a result of a variety of possib le combinations and mixtures of chemicals that are being I

March 25, 1976 15 39 BILL 18 (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) • • . . . put into the air; and that - to use his words - this may have a direct impact on the increasing incidence of cancer or other seri ous ail ments, heart disease, respira tory diseases , etc. Sir , there is no evidence, sc ientific or clinical, that the kinds of substances being used in a pes ticide and insec ticide nature in this country are liable to combinations that would result in that kind of danger.

In fact, Sir, we know that the federal authori ties take a very careful and a very strict view and apply a very strict examination standard to substances of that kind and I would be dismayed, to say the least, if the Member for Fort Rouge or anyone else could supply me with evidence demonstrating that the federal authorities had not thought to Step 2 after looking at Step 1.

I would be very dismayed if I saw evidence indicating that this consideration, that this possi bility of a mixture and of a dangerous admixture had not been considered by those who have devised these tests and by those who have examined the substances under review. The fact of the matter is , Sir, that it's simple for environmentalists and scientists and any others to stand up and suggest that all kinds of potential hazards exist and all kinds of incipient dangers are there in these practi ces . But to a large degree this type of argument adds up to very little more than environmental scare tactics in my view.

Because there is no evidence that this kind of thing is happening and we are assured by federal authoritie s, and certainly subject to some limitations, we must be prepared to accept their word for it that examinations of this kind are strict and strin gent enough to be reasonably certain that these substances can be used with safety. That has to be es tablished before they are made available to us and put on the market. So that I must confess , Mr.

Speaker, that for all the provocative and thoughtful comments contained in the remarks of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge he does strain my credibility and he does challenge my support when he goes on to the extent that he does in his argument with respect to these possible dangers and the fact that should evidence be developed to support the argument that the Province of Manitoba would then not be in any position to deal with it.

The fact of the matter is , Sir, that if that kind of evidence became available, if it were proven that this kind of danger did exist the Province of Manitoba could deal with it very quickly. This statute, this amendment that we'r e considering here is not the final and the ultimate word in environmental control or environmental supervision.

If it were established that some of these safeguards did have loopholes in them and that some of these dangers were in fact taking form, there is no ques tion in my mind that this government or the next government or any government in this province would act swiftly to deal with that si tuation and the amendments that we are considering in the bill today would be further amended. The bill its elf would be opened up and further revised to take that into account.

So to say that we are striking a positio n here inviting potential danger and closing the avenue of defense against it, I think is an exaggeration that weak ens the otherwise interesting and provoc ative argument of the Member for Fort Rouge and I have to dismiss that kind of exaggeration. I would challenge the member's positio n in another area, too, Mr.

Speaker. don't intend to be zeroing in on one particular member but the fact is that in the debate thus far, except for the introductory remarks of the Minis ter, the only member of the House who has spoken at length on it was the Member for Fort Rouge and he took a position that, as I say, emanates from the fact that he's interested in the environment and that has made me doubly interested in what he had to say.

My position is juxta posed to his on this question, and I must address myself to some of his comments be cause they are the basic competitive comments that confront me where this legislation is concerned. The Member for Fort Rouge said that when spraying, the use of insecticides is under way, there are numbers of people who have to leave the city when spraying goes on. He said they simply cannot be in the environment and he considered this grossly unfair.

He went on to say and again I'm quoting from him in Hansard of March 12th: "I gu ess one of the balances that we have to determine is , is it there, 11 meaning spray ing, "is it there to support the inconvenience of and pes tering of 95 percent as compared to the significant health hazard of the other five percent. "

1540 March 25, 1976 BILL 18 (MR. SHERMAN cont'

d) Well, Sir , I reject those mathematic s. In the first place the mosquito menace in this city affects a far greater percentage of the populace than the Member for Fort Rouge has allowed in his remarks, and creates far more danger and discomfort and hazard to them than mere inconveni ence.

I suggest to you, Sir, that at the height of the mosquito infest ation in this city in any given summer there is much more than inc onven-· ience and pestering involved for tho usands upon thousands of citizens who have no allergies to insectic ides or to pesticide s, who are simply citizens of all ages with normal condi tions of health , normal states of health, and the thing they're allergic to or the thing that upsets them, the thing that creates grave discomfort for them, is mosquito es. I point to only one element of society and that is small children.

I say to the Member for Fort Rouge and any other who thinks that this is an insignificant part of the argument, that there are thousands of small children in this city who are cruelly inhibited in their summer activiti es , who are cruelly affected simply by mosquitoes and the pester ing of mosquitoes and mosquito bites . That is just as bad and just as grave and just as discomforting for them as is the effect of the pesticide or the insecticide on many of those people who are championed by the Member for Fort Rouge because they have some particular allergy.

So it doesn't come down to a question of si gnifica nt health hazard for five per cent and a mere inconvenience and pestering of 95 percent. I would say that the effect of the mosquito in terms of the major discomfort that that insect brings to many many normally healthy people and particularly to young children is a significant and major population problem that we must address ourselves to. Mr.

Speaker, I think that there are remarks on the record from the Mayor of this city and the Medical Health Officer of this city that there were lives saved last summer, late summer and early fall, that there were lives saved during the equine encephalitis epidemic by the use of the sprays against the mosquito infestation at that time. I don't think that any member here can argue with the importance of that fact, the importance of that situation in the life of residents of the City of Winnipeg or any other municipality in this province. I think that last summer we faced an emergency.

And I believe , Sir, that the Clean Environment Commission has been tried and found wanting. I believe that the Clean Environment Commission works to an excellent level of capacity and talent in the area of abstract ideas . I believe that it functions very effectively as a catalys t for discussion and argument. But I don't believe , Sir, that the Clean Environment Commission has demonstrated that it is capable of responding efficiently to emergencies .

I believe that municipal councils elected for that purpose do respond efficiently to emergency and if they don't they're replaced by the voters the next time round, or replaced by any sensible vote rs. To leave majo r decisions of this kind in the hands of a body which I believe has its effectiven ess and has its usefulness, but does not have demonstrably that effectiveness in the area of responding under pressure and making neces sary, difficult, hard-nosed decisions in the face of an emergency, I believe that leaving the responsibility in the hands of that body would be irresponsible.

So I differ with my colleague from Lakeside and the Member for Fort Rouge when they say that the Minister is ducking out of it. Indeed, he may be ducking out of a res ponsibility, but that doesn't bother me, I welcome it. I welcome it. I don't believe the Clean Environment Commission demonstrated it could respond efficiently or effectively enough. Mr. Chairman, it 's become fashionable in recent times in the western world to ridicule the majority.

It' s become fashionable for small deletist cliques of so-ca lled intellectuals and thinkers and discussion groups to think that somehow, because they sit down and hold discussi ons and formally examine events of the day, to think that somehow that they've got a monopoly on intelligence and that the great mass of people who are too busy making their daily livings and going about their private daily affairs to engage in all these intellectual exercises, that that great mass of people is somehow not as intelligent as they, is somehow not as tuned-in, is somehow not as informed.

Sir, there was an editorial that struck me with great impact and significance a few nights ago in the Winnipeg Free Press entitled "The New Class " and if the Member

March 25, 19 76 15 41 BILL 18 (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ••..• for Fort Rouge hasn't read it, I would commend it to him to read. The concept is not new. It 's based on the term invented by the Yugo slavian author Milovan Djilas who applied it to a small group of dedicated bureauc rats who have arrogated power unto themselves in many countries and whose whole ambition in life is to retain that power and to centralize it to the extent that they can impose their will on the will of the majority.

The thrust and direction of that kind of thinking, of "New Class" thinking is that the democratic right and the democratic will of the majority should be subverted to the tyranny of a particular minority. To the tyranny really of almost any minority who is activist enough to seek a position of power.

But in this case the "New Class" referred to was in really of almost any minority who was activist enough to seek a position of power, but in this case the new class referred to as a new kind of coalition, maybe even a conspiracy it could be called, of persons in society, many of them bureauc rats , many of them in the publicly funded communications media, accor ding to the author, many of them in the academic sphere, and many many of them in the environmentalist community, who have banded to gether to straddle political lines, to straddle the formal acce pted existing lines of political parties, and to crea te a new kind of centralized or centralis t elite corp which attempts to centralize the decision-making proc ess and thus put across their views in a way that offe rs this particular minority a power far outweighing their democratic rights and privileges.

The result is that the majority is subverted and subordinated to that kind of position, and I think this is happen ing to a large extent in many countries of the world today, and I think it points up the direc tion in this country that we live in of dan ger, because I suggest there has been a growing tendency to disparage and ridicule the majority, and to suggest that the majority is a many-headed monster who really doesn't stop to think and to engage in these intel lectual activities and therefore isn't really capable of making these deci sions .

It is an elitest group of thinkers who should make the decisions. Well I suggest that a great deal of that has happened in the environmental sphere, Mr. Speaker, and I think it is dangerous , I think it is undemocrat ic , and I think it has turned out to be found wanting, as I'v e suggested in period of emergency in given munici palities, such as the Municipality of Greater Winnipe g. Not only that, Sir , but it is a highly arrogant attitude; who is to say who gave these self-a ppointed elitists, this self appointed intelligence its right to make these decisions .

I think unfo rtunately for all the good there is to be said about environmental thinking and planning that the environmental ists community has allowed itself to be taken over by that kind of thinking, and that kind of thinking has lead it to the position it's in today, and the position it's in today as I've suggested, Sir, is a position in which it is not capable of res ponding to the decisions that have to be made.

I say that there are emergencies that can and have to be met and will be met by our elected municipal off icials ; and some of these other bodies have demonstrated that they are not hard-nosed enough to make those decis ions , and if they do make them, they make them based on the wrong criteria beca use there are more people who suff er, and suffer to a grave degree from the mosquito than there are from those who suff er unfort unately, and I regret that there are any at all, but who suffer unfortu nately from the effe cts of pesticides used agains t the mosquito.

So I say let the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources split my caucus , let him devise this if this is his strategy--( Interj ection) --To divide the cauc us. I say, let him out of the kitchen; he wants to get out of the kitchen, let him out of the kitchen. Let's put these kinds of responsibilities back in the hands of responsible individual bodies, and for that reason, s(r, I welcome the bill and I say to the Clean Environment Com mission, it is too bad fellows but in my view you missed your chance. MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia) : Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, rise to support the bill, and maybe jus t beca use my colleague has just walked out, but that's not why- (Interj ection) --That's right, there'll be more than one split, Mr. Speaker, in the House. That doesn't mean that, Mr. Speaker , we should not be alert to the consequences of mismanagement of our environment; I think it is very important. But I would like to challenge probably some of the remarks and maybe disagree at least on a couple of the points that were raised by the Member for Fort Garry. He

15 42 March 25, 1976 BILL 18 (MR. PATRICK cont'd) • • • • • talked about the lives that were saved last year when the Mayor of Winnipeg indicated, I don't believe that is true, I don't believe there were any lives saved as a result of spraying. And while I support the legislation, but by the time that we started to spray last year I think the whole exercise was really a futile exercise, because by that time the weather turned real cold and I think we were just spraying to make the people happy.

I think the areas perhaps should have been sprayed earlier; the parks, I know the Minister said, well the parks could j:l.ave been sprayed, but they were not sprayed. The parks, the river beds , the school yards , and golf course areas should have been sprayed early enough, and I think that would have solved some of the problem. But last year's spraying really I don't think helped anyone, any thing, because by the time the spraying did start the weather was pretty cold and we had frost on the ground, so I don't believe that it re ally helped that much.

I feel if there is going to be spraying it must be planned, it must be done properly, otherw ise it doesn't help. However, I support the legislation because I be lieve the municipalities should have the right; I know that even in council you'll have many people disagree because the large mosquitoes that we had in Assiniboia constitu ency perhaps never got to the City of Winnipeg--(Interje ction)--They had nothing to feed on probably in the inner core of the City of Winnipeg. In the other areas , in the residential areas of West Kildonan or St.

James or Fort Garry, I'm sure that the mos quito infestation was much greater than it was in the inner core of the City of Winnipeg. It got to the point where it was almost unbeara ble, Mr. Speaker, at times.

So I believe that perhaps there should have been some spraying but it should have been done properly, that it should have been planned and not as a last resource just to make the people happy when it was almost realized by everybody, it wasn't going to help any, and having large planes flying across the City with a tremendous amount of spray and smoke, I don't know and I don't believe this was the right way to spray.

Now I believe all unsafe pesticides should be outlawed, and we have scientists and chemists and environmental people within our Environmental Department and surely we depend on them, tha t's why they're getting paid, that no pesticides should be used that is unsafe. I know that you can't say that it won't affect anybody because some certain pesticides certainly will affect people with lung problems and emphysema and asthma, and so on.

But in general I believe that the federal people, the chemists , and the provincial people within the Environmental Department, the chemists in there, the scientists, surely they should not allow any pesticides to be used that is dangerous or may be dangerous to the people. So I support the legislation because again may I say, that in some parts of the city it became almost unbearable but I certainly do not feel that last year's spr aying when it was done so late in the fall that it saved any lives.

I don't believe that, I feel that if this was the reaction from the City of Winnipeg or from the Mayor, well maybe because they sprayed so late and it wasn't done in the proper time, maybe that's why they took that attitude, but I certainly don't believe that lives were saved in Winnipeg last year because of spraying, because of the time that the spraying was done.

But I do want to support the legislation because I feel that the municipalities and the city should have the right; they could examine the situation and how serious it is , and as long as no pesticide is used that is dangerous to people, and I don't believe that it should be used, we have capable people in the department, in the federal department, in the provincial department in Environmental Department, scientists and chemists that surely they should not allow any pesticides to be used that may be harmful.

I know it may harm so me small percentage because of their dis abilities and sicknesses, but perhaps there should be a warning, maybe there should be a warning a day ahead of time, or two days or a week that on a certain day there will be spraying in a cer tain particular area, and this may help some people to stay indoors and to some extent at least have some protection. But, Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to put it in the record that I will support the bill and perhaps we'll learn some more when it goes into committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Member for Ar thur , that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried .

March 25, 1976 BILL NO. 23 THE PESTICIDES AND FERTILIZERS CONTROL ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Rock Lake. 15 43 MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank you for the opportunity of expressing some views in regard to Bill No. 23 which reads , The Pesti cides and Ferti lizers Control Act. Before I begin my comments , Mr. Speaker , I want to make it very abundantly clear that we do have a legislation, namely, that was brought in back in 19 63, a bill called The Pesticides Control Act, and as I unders tand it, Mr.

Speaker, and I am prepared to be corrected if I am wrong, but this is like a new bill, namely, and I say again The Pesticides and Fertilizer Control Act. There is considerable information in this bill that is the same as the one that was brought in in 1963 , but there are amend ments to it, and I took note that the Minister of Agriculture when he was explaining Bill 23, that he referred to pes ticides, insecticides, herbicides, and fungicides but made no mention of the term fertilizer. And whether that was done for a certain reason or not, I don't know, but we have some concerns , Mr.

Speaker, about this bill as to just how effective it will be. I wonder whether the Minister and as he stated that those in the rural areas should be interested in the amendments to this bill, as he so explains it, and what I can gather from the terminology as explained to me, that you know we now have a number of areas where we have protection throughout the Province of Manitoba insofar as pesticides and herbicides are concerned, and also fertilizers.

We have fire commiss ioners through out the Province of Manitoba that have a responsibility; if a complaint is made in, say, any town throughout the country that they feel that these commodities are being stored in a place that are dangerous to those neighbouring that storage place, these commissioners have respons ibility to see to it that those products are moved to a safe place. Also1 Mr.

Speaker, the firms who are in the business of producing herbicides , and the firms that are in the business of producing fertilizers , I believe if one were to understand this industry's - and those who do purchase these commodities - instructions and I use examples on cans that farmers buy herbicides for the purpose of spraying for weeds, if there is any danger , any toxic effects to these chemicals , the instructions are so labelled on the cans , so the farmers - and I used this as an example because the Minister said those of us in the rural areas would be interested - are on those cans to warn farmers of the dangers.

I know, Mr. Speaker, that companies are continually finding new herbicides to take care of the various kinds of weeds that we have, and sometimes they may have not achieved the kind of experimental stage that they would work 100 percent in all cases as they prescribed, and so I can understand maybe the farmer is justified in having some protection in that case. But, Mr.

Speak er, when I see this kind of - these are really amendments to the bill that we fully understand is now on the books and has been since '6 3 as I explained, that by providing or bringing in legislation that a vendor has to have a license in order to sell those commodities , is that going to protect people healthwise from these various products ? You know, Mr. Speaker, the Minister he mentioned one particular case I believe where someone who had been using sprays for army worms and had gone into the hospi tal.

Well, who knows , that could possi bly be , or pos sibly that person might have had some adverse effects healthwise that he couldn't stand it where a norm al person could. Now we don't know those things, Mr. Speaker. So I am wondering how many requests has the Minister of Agriculture received in regard to making his positio n where he feels justified in bringing these amendments before us .

I see that he is now going to estab lish another advisory board composed of seven people, and they are going to have the responsibility of going around the country, I suppose, to see to it that every private enterpris e, individual, seed cleaning plant, every grain elevator, every co-op store, have a license before they can sell these commodities that are referred to in the amend ments in Bill 23. I am reminded, Mr.

Speaker, of the time when the Minister of Agriculture brought in his famous Co arse Grains Bill where he was going to have control of the coarse grains in this province, and he had his workers going aro und the province

154 4 March 25, 1976 BILL 23 (MR. EINARSON cont'd) • • • • • to see to it that everybody who was in the business of handling grains had a licence before he could do that. Now we find, Mr. Speaker, that this has sort of all gone by the wayside because the Minister found that it wasn't a thing that was acceptable to the people of the Province of Manit oba, and so nothing developed from it. You know, Mr.

Speaker, I am concerned when we talk about everyone who is in business , whether it be a co-operative , whether it be a private individual, has to have a license to do all things , because I think we should have some sense of responsibility left with individua ls. I know that fungicides and pesticides are commodities that can be dangerous , and I am given to understand, Mr.

Speaker, that compa nies who are in the production of these chemicals have sent out literature to the vendors , and they have also conducted tests for these vendors to undergo to find out if they are qualified to be able to sell those commodities . And I think, Mr. Speaker, this is a sort of self-discipline , a self-policing that has gone on for years and is still going on today. So , Mr.

Speaker, I am wondering how many requests has the Minister of Agriculture really received ins ofar as a license is required that every vendor must have before he can sell any pes tic ides , insecticide s, herbicides or fertili zers . Mr. Speaker, there's one other thing that I find inter esting, and you know I also want to say, Mr.

Speaker, that some of my colleagues on this side we've been discussing the Clean Environment Act as opposed to this bill and we sometimes feel a little more secure , I just say a little more secure with the Mini ster of Mine s and Resources than we do with the Minis ter of Agriculture, because we've had our experienc es with the Minister of Agriculture in the past, Mr. Speak er. So therefore , I'm not going to holis-boli s accept what the Minister of Agriculture is telling us without very carefully scrutinizing

section by

section of the bill when it goes before committee. Because I want to point out one thi ng, Mr. Speaker, and I'm now suspicious and I'm wondering when he talks about the definition of that bill and when he refers to fertilizer, and it states that a certain fertilizer that is used is a plant nutrient I'm wondering if he has the commodity of whey in mind, that because he 's having some little difficulty with establishing a plant to take care of the whey, is he going to see to it that anyone who wants to put whey on farmers' fields they're going to have to have a licence, and he has the authority, Mr.

Speaker, to stop that from happening through the committee that he is going to set up. Mr. Speaker, --(Interject ion)-- Yes, the comment;; from members across the way say devious ideas . But, Mr. Speaker, it's because of those on that side of the House who have esta blished that sit uation, Sir, and I feel justi fied when I make those comments that we are concerned as to just where this is taking us.

We are concerned about farmers being protected by the exploitation of corporations or individuals , and if it's necessa ry that we bring in legislation because there's sufficient evidenc e to prove that that 's the case, then I would have no quarrel with bringing in the kind of amendments that were neces sary to take care of those kind of problems . But, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister did not indicate to us in his explanatory notes that there were any real serious problems, and from the information that I can gather a good deal is being policed by those vendors, people who are being responsible in selling those com moditie s, and also by those groups and organizations that are producing those commodi ti es . The Minister talks about applying weed spray by plane and weed sprays by applicators on the ground, and here again I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, I as a farmer don't have spraying equipment, or I don't have the time because I'm in here , and I'll use myself as an example, I'm in here , and I have to hire my neighbour farmer to look after my spraying problem s. Does my nei ghbour farmer have to get a licence before he can go and spray my crops for me ? That, Mr. Speaker, I think is a valid and a reason able question . I think, Mr. Speaker, I should be the one who should be able to trust my farmer neighbour as to whether he's going to do the right kind of a job in the way of spraying my crops, fertilizing my fields.

If the Mini ster has sufficient evidence, a number of enough cases that this is to the contrary , then I can maybe understand him doing what he's doing in this bill.

March 25, 1976 1545 BILL 23 (MR. EINARSON cont'

d) But, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that we are concerned. We are not satisfied with the way we see this bill. I for one, and I think maybe there'l l be other of my colleagues who will want to make some comments on this bill, will be prepared to let it go to committee , but we're certainly going to have questions to ask from the Minister, and if we're not satisfied with the answers we get, we leave ourselves open to be able to vote against the bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to move, sec onded by the Member for La Verendrye , that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 25. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Could I have this stand, please ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, se conded by the Minister of Highways, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House reso lve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. SUPPLY - lABOUR MR. CHAIRMAN: I would refer honourable members to Page 38. If there's any member that wishes to speak prior to ••• The Minister will be here shortly. Res olution 76(a). The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek) : Well, Mr. Chairman, I can keep speaking until he gets here. I can recite Mary had a Little Lamb if you want me to. Mr.

Chairman, I'm going back to the subject that we were on the other night, the regulations of mobile homes . When we were in that discussion the other night the Minister was in the process of playing it down lower and lower all the time and being very very mellow because it's pretty obvious that he knew that he had something that was creating a problem and he just didn't want to admit it.

I sincerely would like to mention to him that when he said that I am now leaving the fold after voting for the Act, and now I'm taking it apart, I would refer him to my statement earlier the other night that I said, "Now we have a chance to correct a mis take" and the honourable members on this side are always willing to correct a mistake, which we do not find the same attitude on the other side of the House.

They believe that they never have anything to correct but we show them continually that they do, and it would be very nice if they would stand up like the First Minister said to us one time and said, "Be a man, admit you made a mistake and solve it. " So let's really get down to brass tacks on this. Mr. Chairman, I'm going to read from Hansard of last Tuesday night, and on Page 1482 , March 23rd in Supply at eight o' clock it says , and this is the Minister speaking: "My honourable friend the Member from Sturgeon Creek mentioned about the tent trailers "--(Interjection)--The edition is eight o' clock, 8 p.m.

Tue·sday, March 23rd, Page 1482 . --(Interjection) --Yes . Well, no necessity really. I think the Minister knows that I'l l read his words accurately. "My honourable friend the Member from Sturgeon Creek mentioned about the tent trailers or what-have-you. They are classified so I'm informed as utility trailers and not covered if they don't have the equipment in them. " Well, Mr. Chairman, I stood up and I later on told the Minister that I couldn't accept that because the wording in the bill on the definition of mobile homes definitely says that tent trailers are involved.

But it isn't just the wording of the bill, and I refer, Mr. Chairman, to an ad in the Winnipeg Tribune, Fri day, March 19th, 1976, and this ad is by the Manitoba Department of Labour, and it says: "A new law effective April 1st, 1976 , prohibits the sale or lease of any new or used travel trailers , fifth wheel, tent trailers or other recre ational vehicles without a permit from the Manitoba Labour Department." It's right

1546 March 25, 1976 SUPPLY - lABOUR (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) • • . • • in the ad by the department, that says tent trailers and fifth wheel trailers, which is something we haven't discussed. "A permit is issued only if a unit has been inspected and labelled by CSA or the Labour Department. Sales outlets, distributors and private owners call 946-7511 soon, to arrange an inspection before April 1st deadline. " You know, it says to call soon before the April 1st dead line, and if that doesn't intimate that you have to have it done bef ore April 1st I don't know what does.

Now the Minister has explained that it doesn't. We are quite aware the Minister explained. But that ad is not very clear. It really says, you know, at the end it says: "Sales outlets, distributors and private owners call 946-7511 soon to arrange an inspection before the April 1st deadline. 11 Now I again repeat the Minister has made it clear, but that ad is not clear.- (Interjection)--Yes. But you see, Mr. Chairman, he doesn't really care if the people understand it. This is an ad by his department put in the paper.

I would like to ask the Minister one other question, and it is the first one which I've mentioned. Clear up, clear this up for the benefit of the people so that they will understand it. There's another ad in this same paper that I don't have with me but I will get. "A permit is issued only if a unit has been inspected." To me when you refer to tent trailers, they have to be inspected.

So the real mixup with these regulations versus the advertising that I've read off in the paper, and the def initions of recreational vehicles has caused the public a tremendous amount of concern and it's going to cost them an awful lot of money too, and as I said this is just another tax which is being put on the people. Mr. Chairman, the Minister keeps ref erring to the fact that of the safety regu lations, etc.

You know, I'm very concerned, and I am concerned, when I see the government working with a group of manufacturers which lay down regulations that protect one particular group and stop the people from making the choice that they want to make, and I must say that I have a lot of respect for CSA, but CSA is a private company, the Canadian Standards Association is not a government-owned organization in any shape or form and they are a private company.

When you make regulation that their label must be on there, anybody that wants to come to Canada, or anybody in Canada wants to sell things, is charged very heavily by CSA to submit things to them for inspection to be tested, etc., and they're charged all the time by CSA to go in those plants and inspect. --{Interjection)--That is so. I've been involved in a plumbing and heating business longer than you have.

Now I assure you, I assure you that this can happen and when I see it, not only in this business, a group of manufa cturers of any kind wanting government protection so that other people will have to stay out, it's a very dangerous precedent. You're not giving the people the right to make their own choice. And since when, and since when does the NDP socialist government for the people, that we always hear about, gather together a group of manufacturers to decide what the regulations for the people will be ?

Because they are basically unfair to the guy who owns a trailer or who buys one now or has to sell one now. --(Interjection)--And you know it. You know the Minister is getting all excited because he darn well has been sold down the garden path and he went down there with his eyes closed and he hasn't opened them. Mr. Chairman, these regulations are unfair to the people of Manitoba, as they stand at the present time, and they're nothing more than another tax.

If the Minister can stand up and tell me that it's fair for a person that owns a tent trailer to have to have it inspected is just, just - well, I hope he does. He has said to me if it has equipment in it, it has to be inspected. Who knows when it's going to have equipment in it? Mr. Chairman, have the Minister get up and say that I'm going to correct the regulations; I'm going to amend the Act, and I'm going to have my advertising come out properly so people can understand it. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAU LLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona): Mr.

Chairman, I can understand the political approach of my honourable frie nd the Member for Sturgeon Creek. I can understand that he, who is involved in the - what is it? - plumbing,

March 25, 19 76 1547 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••. garbage, whatever it is, sanitary disposal industry being concerned about the CSA. I wonder if my honourable friend really knows what the CSA really . is. What is it? I say to you, Mr. Chairman, to the members of this com mittee, that it is a non-profit organization charged with the voluntary responsibility of taking a look at equipment that is used in the plumbing industry, with which my friend is apparently asso.ciated.

I didn't know that until now, but that is by his own admission and by his own contribution I can accept it readily, that he is associated with the plumb ing industry at least one certain aspect of it, but the Canadian society, engineers and associations, --(Interjection)--Oh well you just - if the cap fits you wear it, and I believe that you would recognize that the cap does fit insofar as you are personally concerned with what you just indicated before this House. But CSA is a non-profit organization whose objective is the protection of the consumer in Manitoba to the similar degree, Mr.

Chairman, as the Department of La bour is in the Province of Manitoba. Now the Honour able Member for Sturgeon Creek can rant and rave and rebel as much as he likes about the possible inadequacies, or the possible lack of clarifi cation, in his opinion, as to the ads--(In terjection) --Don't I believe what? That you are enlightened ?- -(Interjection)- Don't I believe black and white, yes. And I also believe that there is or are occasions where even

interpretations of black and white can be taken so far out of concept that concept, yes, that even the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek can twist them around to his own political advantage because there are complaints, and that is what he is doing. He is trying to suggest ulterior motives and ulterior approaches by the Department of Labour and a misinterpretation of our regulations. Who in Heaven's name would ever want a seal of approval of propane gas equipment, electrical equipment in a tent trailer that didn't have such equipment in it.

Now, of course that's what it says but anybody with any common sense, and maybe, Mr.

Chairman, you can fault me and call me to task for being unparliamentary that if my honourable friend hasn't got the possession of common sense to realize that and maybe I'm being unfair to my honourable friend and I challenge him to rise on a point of privilege that he has common sense, be cause in my opinion, anyone, anyone at all inside or outside of this House that would suggest that before a tent trailer or a Red River cart that hasn't got any mechanical equipment in it, would be subjected to mechanical inspection, I think lacks an intellectual approach to reality, and I think that is the situation with my honourable friend and I like the guy.

He is not a bad sort of an individual, but now and again his political inclina tions give way to reality, and I appreciate that, damn it all; I've been in politics for a couple of years myself, but I think my honour able friend is carr ying it to a bit of an extre me. I've had a large number of calls in the last few days by individuals who have followed the procedures in this House in respect of the application of the regulations of the mobile homes. And I am glad to know that people in Manitoba do pay, from time to time, attention to what goes on in this House. That, as I indicate Mr.

Chairman, has resulted in a number of calls to me as Minister of the department, and I get them at home as well as I get them here, and I am glad they are interested and they are concerned; and when one explains what the whole objective of the regulations is, namely, safety to the consumer, not because of any financial transaction per se, but because the use of trailers is a family use generally, and protection of the individual and their respective families, after explanation they say, to me, "Gee, we're so happy that you're going ahead with it. " Of course, Mr .

Chairman, I have had one or two complaints from individuals because of the cost of the inspection point that the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Cree k keeps going back to and dwelling upon. I would suggest in this respect that my friend from Sturgeon Creek would criticize the Estimates of the department if the financial input was extended because that would be a further increase in the charges on the public, but because of the fact that a service is being performed to individuals and to the public, that's why these charges are ther e.

Is it not fair to charge the benefactors of the ser vices provided instead of society as a whole, or the taxpayers in total, charges for inspection. So I say to my honourable friend from Sturgeon Creek, I appreciate, Mr. Chair man, his concern. I appreciate the fact that he is a politician, has got a hold of a tent

1548 March 25 , 1976 SUPPLY - LABOUR (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• in which to slumber, and in which we are not concerned insofar as inspections for the lack of mechanical facilities. I expected, my honourable friend the Member for Sturgeon Creek - who I sometimes suspect is a free enterpriser on the right side of the middle line - I can imagine his aversion and his condemnation of this socialist government of enacting legislation, such as we have before us, his aversion for regulations that are . a requirement upon the owners on sale of equipment and the purchase, I can unders tand that.

He condemns this socialist government, and I have no hesitation of saying that I am a socialist, but I do want to say to my honourable friend, that there are other jurisdictions that have similar legislation and they are not socialist. It is my understanding that among other jurisdictions, one of the most anti socialist governments that we have in the whole of the Dominion of Canada, the Pro vince of Alberta, has similar legislation.

Now I wonder--(Interject ion)- -Yes, my honourable friend the Member for Fort Garry says, the Conservative Government of Alberta just keeps one step ahead of the Socialist Government of Manitoba. And here is his colleague the Member for Sturgeon Creek condemning me as the Minister of Labour in a socialist government for catching up; if I unders tand my honourable friend from Fort Garry, catching up with the free enterpris e Government of Alberta, which happens to be free enterprise and Conservative. You know, Mr. Chairm an, over the last--(Interjection)--Free enterprise, that's right.

Over the last few moments today, this afternoon in respect of some other pieces of legislation and resol ution we've heard co=ents about splits within the party - I believe one of them dealt with fertilizer.

I think that is very very appropriate today to indicate that on the basis almost parallel of fertilizer input to see that there is apparent differences in the opposition once again in the input insofar as the regulations of safety in mobile home s, because here we have the Member for Fort Garry saying that this socialist government apparently is catching up with the free enterprise Conservative Government of Alberta and here is his colleagues from the other end of Greater Winnipeg condemning us because we are socialist in the introduction of this type of legislation, Well I say, Mr.

Chairm an, in all due respect to the citizens of Manitoba that we are trying to do a job for, you can't have it both ways. I would suggest,M r. Chairm an, that as far as my colleagues in government are concerned there is no split in our desire to render a service to the owners of possible pur chasers of mobile homes . Could well be that there is only one point that the Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek can rest a case upon, and that is a possible

interpretation or misinterpretation of the ads that were prod uced for the local papers . Now, maybe I am at fault, maybe I am at fault, that I should take a look at every cotton picking ad, that I should scrutinize, that I should edit, or if I haven't got the time to edit I should get the honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, who is so knowledgeable of the plumbing industry, to edit these ads on my behalf. Mr.

Chairman, maybe that is where I have failed, but for my honourable friend to say this afternoon, and quote from Hansard as he did - and of course that is the reason we have got Hansard so that what we say can come back home to roost - to say that I said this or said that, in the light of reality and common sense I don't think the point raised by my honourable friend can stand real depth scrutiny, and over the supper hour possibly he will re-re ad and reassess his approach of this afternoon, because in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, this is not a political issue.

Make it a political issue if you will, the sum and substance of the Act supported unanimously in the House, and the regulations which had an involvement of the whole of the industry, are only aimed, as I said the other night, towards the protection of the public and the safety of those who purchase equipment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4: 30 Private Members ' Hour having arrived and pursuant with our House Rule 19(2) I am leaving the Chair to return at 8: 00 p.m. this evening.

March 25, 19 76 1549 PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR PUBLIC AND PRIVATE BILLS - SEC OND READINGS BILL NO . 21 -A N ACT TO AMEND THE CONDOMINIUM ACT

(2) MR. SPEAKER: First item is Public Bill No . 21 , proposed by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. The Honourable Member for St . Matthews . MR . WALLY JOHANNSON (St . Matthews) : Stand? (Agreed) BILL NO . 32 -A N ACT TO AMEND

AN ACT TO INCORPORATE TRI-STA TE MORTGAGE CORPORATION MR. SPEAKER: Bill No . 32, proposed by the Honourable Member for Radisson. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDW ARD McGILL (Brandon West) : Mr . Speaker, we have examined Bill 32 and we are prepared now to see it move on to consideration by the appropriate standing committee . QUES TION put, MOTION carried . RESOLUTI ON 2 MR. SPEAKER: Oh we're back to resolutions . Resolution No . 2. The Honour able Member for Morris has around three minutes . MR . JORGENSON: Mr .

Speaker, in the few remaining moments that I have left in debate in my portion of the debate on this particular resolution, I simply will have time to sum up the remarks that I made on the previous occasion by saying that the idea contained in the resolution is one that I believe has been tried in perhaps not quite the form that is being proposed in this res olution and that I had suggested during the course of my remarks that if the resolution is adopted then I would suggest that the government or whoever is going to be given the responsibility of implementing it embark on a pilot project to determine its practicability .

I have the feeling that it is another one of those theories that, although sounding well in theory, in practice may not work out as well as the originator of this resolution expects . So, Sir, if the government are going to adopt it or if this House adopts the res olution and government acts on it, then I would hope that they do not set up a staff so large that it is going to cost the taxpayers thousands of dollars to administer it, and that they will indeed begin by testing the program out in practical, actual conditions to determine whether or not it is practical. My guess is it won't work.

QUE STION put, MOTION carried . RESO LUTION 11 MR. SPEAKER: Res olution No . 11 . The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON (Gladstone): Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, that:

WHEREAS cattle producers, live cattle salesmen and cattle auction marts are incurring severe financial losses through the unethical practices of some cattle or order buyers; AND

WHEREAS The Livestock and Livestock Products Act, Caption L1 70, R.S.M., provides a mechanism for the bonding of cattle or order buyers which would assist greatly in minimizing such losses; THERE FORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the government, in consultation with prov incial beef producers and auction marts, consider the advisability of: 1. causing an Order-in-C ouncil to be passed pursuant to

section 3(1) (

m) of The Livestock and Livestock Products Act, Caption L1 70, R.S.M., requiring all major cattle or order buyers to be bonded to a minimum level of $50, 000 .00: 2, that the aforesaid regulations and requirement for bonding exempt all classes of local or small purchases from their operation. MOTION pres ented.

1550 March 25, 197 6 RESOLUTION 11 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . This resolution I hope will meet with a fa vourable response from all members of the House . I have had considerable experience in the livestock industry and have been involved in the setting up of our own local auction mart in Gladstone and I know the trials and tribulations that we go through in trying to establish credit ratings for buyers and they seem to be something that is very fluctuating .

A person that has a very good credit rating one week may not have quite as good a one the next time • At the present time there are so many loopholes in the existing legislation that they seem to be able to operate with impunity. There is no way that you can really keep contact with these people except by calling their banks and it becomes pretty near a full time job checking the credit ratings of the buyers as they come in .

If you see someone that is buying excessively that day and possibly you don't know him that well, many times you can't get through to the banks and it is very diff icult to check the credit rating. Consequently I feel that a $50, 000 bond as against the licensing system would put the onus on the individual . If he is a responsible buyer he certainly as in all other ethical business , has nothing to fear . But if he is trying to pull a fast one then he's cer tainly up for prosecution. I am going to speak generally on the auction marts to start with, Mr .

Speaker, because I have found that this is where the greatest degree of trouble seems to arise . I know that practically every auction mart in Manitoba, and there are a considerable number now operating, that it seems to be that the buyers in many instances , unethic al buyers, set the mart up, establish a credit rating possibly for as long as a year or two years, it may even be five years . Then all of a sudden they will do a little transfer of owner ship and someone finds themselves holding the bouncing cheques to the tune of $12, 000, $15, 000, $20, 000 and there is just no way that they can be bailed out .

I know that two or three of the marts in Manitoba have been brought almost to the brink of bankruptcy through these practices and as I say there seems to be no protection. This would not be in any way involving the smaller buyers, farm buyers, who possibly go into the marts and buy anywhere from the 20 to 30 or a small amount of cattle maybe once a year or possi bly oftene r than that . These are not the people that the problem is with because they are local and they can be checked out quite quickly. . I don't think that I know of any instances in Manitoba that these buyers have been involved .

Another group that are causing a considerable amount of problems are the out-of the-province buyer s. I've had several complaints from buyers and sellers in the Province of Manitoba that have dealt with buyers from possibly Ontario or Saskatchewan over a period of many years . Here again they fall into the trap of a bouncing cheque; the cattle have moved and there is no recourse . You can certainly sue but by this time the individ ual can be involved in a bankruptcy suit or else he can just say, well now if you'd like to get your money maybe I'll pay off 25 cents on the dollar, and they're getting away with it.

So I don't think that we can carry on in this manner. I feel that there has to be some protection not only for the buyers and sellers but for anyone that is involved in the business of buying and selling livestock in the province . I'm sure that the government has given this considerable thought. In "Livestock Marketing in Manitoba, " the report that we just received, the group that were responsible for that recommended a licensing system . The Province of Alberta do have licensing and I don't know whether it's been satisfactory or not .

But here again you're building up a fund through a licensing system that 's going to require a considerable amount of staff and a considerable amount of polic ing by the state and I don't feel the province of Manitoba, the taxpayers, should be obliged to pick up the tab for this • So in recommending this resolution to the House, Mr . Speaker, I would hope that all parties would become involved and I would like to hear what their views are on this thing. I would like to hear whether or not they would support this as against licensing.

I feel the bonding would be a much more fairer way of sharing the responsibilities . It's on the individuals that are involved and I do believe that a $50, 000 limit would be quite

March 25, 197 6 1551 RESO LUTION 11 (MR. FE RGUSON cont'd) •. ••. fair. I think that anyone involved within the livestock business in Manitoba would have no complaint, it works both ways . They would be pro tected and so would the people that they're doing business with. With these few words, Mr . Speaker, I would hope that we will hear from some of the other members of the House. Thank you . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to first of all make the observation that the members opposite are pursuing resolutions on matters that are already before the government for consideration, namely through the tabling of the report of the Inquiry Com mission into the handling of meat products in the province . · While I suppose it could be said that it 's motherhood now to endorse sections of that report, I want to welcome the support of the Conservative Party and in particular the Member of Gladstone in measures that we would be undertaking in that connection after we 've had a proper consultative period to determine from the general community what is the best approach.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: I would like to point out to the Minister, Mr . Speaker, that this resolution was prepared considerably in advance of when the report came out. It must have been I think very shortly after, probably about the same time it came out. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister . MR. USKIW: Well, Mr . Speaker, it doesn't detract from the fact that we are pleased that members opposite are taking a positive view towards the recommendations contained in the Meat Inquiry Commission report.

That's at least one of the recommenda tions and I can accept the fact that there may be differences of opinion as between any number of recommendations in that report. But to the extent that we can agree, it's always nice to have members opposite express a degree of support of the direction that the government is taking in the considerations that we had before us at the present time .

But in saying that I think it's fair to assume, well not only assume , I think it's fair to suggest that we shouldn't move on these recommendations in advance of consultations that are going to take place with the livestock industry processors, the dealers, the producers, so that when we do decide to proceed, we proceed with the best information at hand at that time and we put together what hopefully will be a very workable system .

That is only one part that concerns the province and there's no doubt in my mind that whatever changes are going to be brought about they will likely be introduced in somewhat of a package form and that this particular aspect will likely be one component of a larger package so that members opposite will have their opportunity to discuss the whole of the change in the structure of the marketing of live stock in thl.s province some time in the months ahead.

In that connection I should also like to point out that we are pleased that the producers of beef are taking a very active interest and involvement with the Department of Agriculture and intend to carry that involvement through over the next several months with the desire that we come up with a change in marketing practice here that is accept able to them and to the extent that we have their participation. Mr . Speaker, I'm very pleased and hope that we have what one would call total involvement in the consideration of the recommendations before us.

I belie ve in my own mind that these things have been a problem to us for many many years, it's not something new, that it's long overdue - that is the re structuring of the marketing system. In that connection I would hope the Member for Gladstone would help us along in carrying the message forward as to the changes that are required and the benefits that hopefully would accrue to the producers and the consumers and of course to all concerned with the rec ommendations that are finally adopted . So again I say, Mr . Speaker, that it is a bit of a motherhood position at this point in time.

We have been aware that there's been a problem in this connection for a long time, one of the reasons why the Inquiry Commission was established. We appreciate the support of members opposite in bringing about neces sary changes . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I ju st want to make a few comments in regards to this resolution that is brought forth by my colleague from Gladstone and

1552 March 25, 1976 RESOL UTION 11 (MR. EINARSON cont' d) ••••• indicate to him that for the record I want to extend my support. I think that it is something that we on this side of the House very often speak of and I for one - and that's one of the reasons why we're here - that when people are confronted with problems that may be as a result of actions by one individual or groups of people exploiting others, that I think we 're here to provide the kind of legislation that will protect those people from those exploitations .

I am pleased to hear the Mini ster rise in his seat and say that while he might think that the resolution is somewhat of a mother hood nature, I was pleased to hear my colleague rise to his feet and indicate to the Minister that that resolution was drafted a considerable length of time before the Commis sion of Inquiry report was given to us and made known to us in this House . I think that's something that is important to be known. But, Mr.

Speaker, I'm also pleased to hear the Minister because I know when I rise to respond to bills pertaining to agriculture, I'm always concerned as to whether he is getting complaints or whether this is something that is being initiated on his own. I'm pleased to hear him say that this is one complaint that he's been getting for some time and I agree with him . This is something that we on this side have heard from people who have been innocent victims of this sort of thing because there is not suff icient bondage, Mr .

Speaker, to protect those people who have sold cattle to some who are in the field of buying and don't seem to have the respect for others when it comes to trying to back up the price that they 're paying for those animals . You know it doesn't take long, Mr . Speaker, for $50, 000 to add up and so I think this is a very important matter that my colleague from Gladstone brings forth to the members of this House . I only hope that when we're dealing with it that it's not going to be a kind of package deal, Mr .

Speaker, that we 're going to have to accept something that is distasteful to us in order that we receive something. One example I use right now, namely protecting those people who are selling cattle and hopefully that they are going to be paid for them. I think this is an important matter, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . MR. USKIW: I just want to find out from the Member for Rock Lake whether he believe s that government can only proceed on a complete total consensus on any position and whether his party is able to function that way . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr . Speaker, I'd like to use an example . The Ministe r may not think this is the kind of answer that he was looking forward to but I would like to use an example of the Trudeau Liberals in Ottawa on their capital punishment bill and they're bringing in gun control with it . You know, we don't want capital punishment but we'll make some compromises, we're going to bring in something and add to it that we know very well there are many people in this country don't like. So that, Mr.

Speaker, is the point that I was trying to make to the Minister when I said that I hope he doesn't, when he's making reco=endations that are going to be

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-51
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 51.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b28213c541e24c1bfed54c66c17ce0e1e1d16346

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