Manitoba Hansard — 6 July 2000 (Sitting 57B, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-57b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 57B- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, July 6, 2000

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

3609 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, July 6, 2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Conrad Santos (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Manitoba Highway Map Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister of Highways and Government Services): I have a ministerial statement, Mr. Speaker. Earl ier this afternoon, I had the great pleasure of unveiling Manitoba's new highway map. Mr. Speaker, for the first time in 40 years, for the first time actual ly in the history of this province, all of Manitoba is depicted on the new map. I might add it also shows the winter road system and other important transportation components such as northern airports. It is with great pride, Mr.

Speaker, I indicate that by expanding the map to include the entire province, we are sending a strong message that every inch of our 230 000 square kilo metres are part of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I am also very proud to have Manitoba's ethnic and cultural diversity depicted on our new map. Visitors to Manitoba will see, on the map, greetings in 26 of the languages spoken here in Manitoba. In the same way that the new map shows our province's geographic diversity, we are also recognizing the diversity of the people who have chosen to make Manitoba their home.

As Manitobans prepare to celebrate our diversity at Folkl orama, I am proud the visitors in Manitoba will appreciate the many ethnic communities that have contributed to the rich diversity of our province, and I might add, it includes every aboriginal language in the province, a total of 26 languages, and includes all ma jor languages spoken in this province. Mr. Speaker, this is also an historic day for Manitoba's First Nations.

Prior to unveiling the map, 0 Canada! was sung in Cree by Natasha and Alex andria Moody, who are with us today and will be, I believe, introduced in a few minutes formally, from Nelson House Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, also known as recording artist Moody Times Two. To my knowledge, this is the first time that 0 Canada! was performed in the Legislature in Cree, and I am sure all honourable members will appreciate how significant an event it was.

Nisichawayasihk, by the way, is the Cree name of the home community of the Moodys, and it means "where three rivers meet." It is certainly a way of capturing the spirit of the historic day today. Mr. Speaker, this message sends a clear message to Manitobans, not only should we drive safely, we should think diversity, we should be proud of our geographic diversity, our ethnocult ural diversity. I was really proud today to introduce this on behalf of all members of the Legislature. Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Well, Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his statement and the maps that he has provided.

These maps are very important to Manitobans and in fact to the tourism industry in Manitoba, and I am pleased that the Minister is carrying on

3610 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 2000 that tradition of providing these maps for Manitobans and for tourists in our province. I think it is significant that this change was made on the maps. As the Minister rightly said, the maps have not been changed for 40 years, going through from the Schreyer government up to the present time. This was a timely change that will be appreciated by Manitobans. I am pleased to see that he used a scene from southwestern Manitoba on the front of the map, a very picturesque area near Ninette.

I also note that he has continued with the tradition of putting his picture on the map. I know that his high school graduation picture probably could have been updated. Thank you. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask for leave to speak on the Minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member haveleave? [Agreed] * (1 3:35) Mr. Gerrard: I rise to congratulate the Minister on his initiative in bringing forward a new map with some positive changes. There will be other occasions, I am sure, when I have more negative things to say, but today I think congratulations are in order. Thank you. Meegwetch.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 44-- The Labour Relations Amendment Act

(2) Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell), that leave be given to introduce Bill 44, The Labour Relations Ame ndment Act (2) (Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur les relations du travail), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, the proposed bill serves three main purposes: first, it establishes a process to send a collective bargaining dispute to a binding settlement process after a strike or lockout has been in effect for more than 60 days, and this is based on the existing first contract legislative model; streamlining the process for union certification by allowing for interim certification orders and making certification automatic if 65 percent or more of the employees have signed membership cards; and expanding the mediation and arbitration process and tightening the time lines to allow for a faster resolution of a wider range of disputes.

Motion agreed to. Bill 47- The Civil Service Amendment Act Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), that leave be given to introduce Bill 47, The Civil Service Ame ndment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia fonction publique, and that the same now be received and read a first time. The Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would also like to table the Lieutenant-Governor's message. Motion presented Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, this bill amends The Civil Service Act to allow the Treasury Board to administer certain sections of the Act, including those relating to classification, pay plans, rates of pay and collective bargaining. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have with us Natasha and Al exandria Moody of Moody Times Two, who earlier today performed 0 Canada! in Cree for the first time in the Manitoba Legislature. The Moodys are from Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, Nelson House, in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Highways and Government Services (Mr. Ashton). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 361 1 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Agricultural Disaster Assistance Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Last year when there was such a disastrous flood in southwestern Manitoba and many farm families were impacted, our government, which was in power at the time, put $70 million on the table to aid the victims of that flood.

Since this government has taken office, it has not put one dime more money on the table for the families that faced disaster last year. * (13: 40) This week, Agriculture ministers met in New Brunswick to discuss the need for a rainy day fund for farmers. I find it pretty ironic, given that this government has not used any of the rainy day fund here in Manitoba to support the victims of the 19 99 flood. Mr. Speaker, the Government claims that it is sitting at the discussion table when it comes to assistance, but it is yet to put its own funding in place to help victims.

Could the Premier tell us if his government laid an aid package on the table on Tuesday when it met with the Rural Disaster Recovery Coalition? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the statement made by the Member opposite that not a dime has flowed from this government is wrong. The Member should know it is wrong. We announced a $1 00-million income support transportation plan, and the coalition quite correctly, unlike the Member opposite, pointed out on Tuesday that that money, between $9 and $12 an acre, did flow to all producers in need, and it included the people in southwest Manitoba.

So that is $10 0 million, $40 million from our Treasury. One area we have already, through the former government, put forward over $20 million in programs that should be part of a federal disaster assistance program. I would say to members of this Chamber and members of the public that the days of taking $350 million out of the Fiscal Stabilization Fund in two operating years are over, Mr. Speaker, and I made that point very clearly. I will make that point clearly to any Manitoban. We are not going to sell a telephone system and then spend $350 million out of a Fiscal Sta bilization Fund.

The $18 5 million that came from the Fiscal Stabilization Fund last year has been reduced down to $90 million this year, and it is our goal to reduce the dependency of government on supporting operating programs in the province with the Stabilization Fund. But the people of southwest Manitoba, we believe, are entitled to federal disaster assistance. The federal government, at the end of February, agreed with that and signed an Order-in-Council.

We now hear potential rumours out of Ontario, with the high amount of rain, there may be another program announced, and we immediately, when we heard that from the coalition on Tuesday, phoned the federal government and said that they still owe the people of southwest Manitoba a disaster assistance program. We are still committed to our share of that disaster assistance program, and I hope this Legislature is united in calling on Ottawa to treat Canada and all provinces and all regions in an equal way, something that has not happened for southwest Manitoba. Mrs.

Mitchelson: With all the rambling and ranting in that long answer, I heard nothing that told Manitobans that there was any targeted relief for those who suffered the disaster and the floods in 19 99. I think it is abysmal that this government has not shown a leadership role to provide some sort of assistance. Mr. Speaker, will the Premier tell this House what Manitoba farmers will actually gain in terms of disaster assistance as a result of the new safety net agreement? Mr. Doer: The programs have been agreed to over the three-year period.

The Minister has been in discussions with other Ag ministers and the federal government. The specific amounts are in the Budget and have been debated, in terms of Manitoba's portion, in the Estimates that have been passed, I believe, in this Legislature. So the Member opposite will know the number.

3612 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 2000 The program did anticipate a reduction of support for Manitoba and Saskatchewan initially. That has been stopped, but I would say, quite frankly, coming back to the fundamental point, that we believe in a na tional disaster assistance program, and we believe that means partnership between the federal and provincial governments. Last year, Mr. Speaker, when the former government put $70 million on the table to "embarrass" the federal government into making a payment, they did not get one red cent.

When we developed an income support program to give equal credit for a program of $60 million from the federal government, $40 million from the provincial government for an agreement on income support, that cost-sharing agreement did come forward from the federal government, and we did get $60 million on top of the $40 million from Manitoba.

That is the model we are using to try to resolve southwest Manitoba, where we bring forward a plan and announce together. * (13: 45) If the members opposite are proposing that Manitoba opt out of the federal disaster assistance program and opt out of the federal responsibilities for southwest Manitoba, I say shame on them. Mrs. Mitchelson: I think all we would like to see and all the farmers and the farm families that experienced the disaster last year would like to see is some consideration and some compassion from this government. Mr.

Speaker, can the Premier indicate today-because he has said time and time again that his money would be on the table if there were a 50-50 program to deal with the disaster of the flood in 19 99. We are not asking this government to put the federal government's share of dolla rs on the table. Will they take their 50-cent dollars and put them on the table today so that Manitoba farmers and farm families who experienced the disaster and the devastation last year will have some money in their pockets? Mr. Doer: The proposal from the southwest Manitoba coalition is for a program of some $42 million.

Of the $7 1 million that was forwarded last year, over $22 million is the money from the province "on the table." Mr. Speaker, I would note that members opposite, in terms of the 50-50 program, commissioned the so-called Rose report and received it in government last August and have not released it to the public. Agricultural Disaster Assistance Cost-Sharing Program Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): The news releases that have come out of Ottawa and this province give me very little comfort in assuring farmers that there will be a better aid program than we have seen in the past.

The news release from the federal government clearly says that the federal government will contribute exactly what it did last year, $1.1 billion a year over the next three years, and the province's matching funds will be 40 percent, the same as it has been. Now I ask the Premier: Does this mean that the program changes that he has just talked about in this new program will be directed towards farmers and their cash income or the risk side of agriculture? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I believe that the program will include both.

I think the Member knows that from the discussions he had in Estimates with the Ag Minister (Ms. Wowchuk). Mr. Jack Penner: I appreciate that answer; however, the news release said something exactly to the opposite of that. The news release says the framework signed today provides the basis for federal and provincial core safety net programs comprising of fall cash, and it says it will be based on the size of the industry- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I have Beauchesne's out because I know the Member was asking a question, and indeed I have to refer to Beauchesne's Citation 410 : "Supplementary questions require no

preambles." Citation 409: "A supplementary question should need no

preamble." It is well

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3613 known to the Member. Mr. Speaker, would you please instruct the Member to put his question without any other

preambles? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Emerson, on the same point of order. Mr. Jack Penner: On the same point of order, I think it is important that the Premier realize that the federal press release states the exact opposite to what he just told this House. I would suggest to the Premier that he should at least read the press releases before making those kinds of statements. * (13:50) Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the Honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. *** Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Honourable Member for Emerson to please put his question. Mr. Jack Penner: Will the Premier confirm that the basis of the new agreement is a provincial core safety net agreement which will see net programs be based on the size of the industry in each province, or will we in fact use the net income as the basis for calculations? Mr. Doer: The news story, the wire story states that the final details will not be complete. The Minister indicated that she will be releasing those details with the farm groups and also ask for their input into some of these changes.

So that is the advice I have received. I certainly await the full briefing of the Minister and the input from the farm organizations. Mr. Jack Penner: It is obvious that the Premier does not know what his own minister has agreed to in Ottawa because this is a serious flaw in the program- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you could use my earlier point of order. Once again, the Member knows full well the rules of the House. There is no

preamble that is available when there is a supplementary question. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the Honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. *** Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Honourable Member to please put his question. Mr. Jack Penner: I will simply ask the Premier, then: Will the negative margins that were part of last year's programs be continued in this new program or will AIDA exist under this new program? And if the negative margins will continue under the new announcement, will the Premier assure this House that this province will participate in the negative margin program? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the agreements that were signed in Fredericton and the money and financial support from the province were consistent with the Estimates that were passed and debated in this Chamber. The Member asked four questions. I think he spent over forty hours in Agriculture, and those matters were debated and discussed and fully disclosed in the Estimates a couple of weeks ago. School Divisions Amalgamations Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, last fall, on two occasions, the Minister of Education indicated that he was prepared to force school divisions to amalgamate if they did not do so willingly.

Again last week, he was quoted in the paper as making the same comments. I would like to ask the Minister of Education whether he could confirm that he is prepared to force school divisions to amalgamate if they do not do so willingly.

3614 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 2000 Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, of course it is the desire of government, in fact, all trustees and educators in the province of Manitoba to ensure that the greatest resources possible are made available to the classrooms of Manitoba. In 19 94, the Norrie commission report, commissioned by the members opposite, into school division boundaries in the province of Manitoba released a report that called for a reduction in school divisions to 21. It was a cookie-cutter model that did not provide for local nuance.

It is the position of this government, and has been since assuming office. that we are determined that resources, where they are available, will be freed up for the classrooms of the province of Manitoba for the children in the province of Manitoba. That position has not changed. I am encouraging, this year, an active dialogue in the school divisions of the province of Manitoba with their neighbours so that we can have a more efficient system for 2002. Mr. Gilleshalll mer: Mr.

Speaker, on November 19 , the Minister is quoted as saying that he ordered senior bureaucrats to resurrect the Norrie commission findings on school boundaries and prepare a report as soon as possible. Could he indicate if that report has been prepared, and could he table it in the House? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I smile because I actually provided that press clipping to the Member opposite yesterday afternoon for his information. * (13 :55) The Department did look at the Norrie commission report. There was no written report provided to me. We had a number of discussions upon it. It was deemed to be too extreme.

I think it was a view that the members on this side expressed at the time. It is certainly the view that was expressed in the field. There is some useful information in the Norrie commission report there is no doubt about it-but we are committed to having an open dialogue with the field. We are strongly encouraging divisions to discuss with their neighbours the best use of resources, whether it involves amalgamation or shared services of bus services, for example, and so forth, and that is a process that we intend to continue. Mr.

Gille shammer: Can the Minister then confirm that he will not be imposing the Norrie report boundaries, but he has a plan of his own to put in place? When will he share this with Manitobans? Mr. Caldwell: I will confirm that we will not be imposing the Norrie commission report on the school divisions of the province of Manitoba. That has been a consistent view of this government in government and when it was in opposition.

As for the plan that the Government has for school division amalgamations currently, I think it is best expressed in what I have been saying to the House and publicly over the last number of months. We want to encourage serious discussions, thoughtful discussions at the local level, bearing in mind local conditions. the uniqueness of the province and the regions of the province in their deliberations. We will encourage and continue to facilitate those sorts of discussions. School Divisions Amalgamations Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Education has given the impression across this province that he will, indeed, force amalgamation within a year's time. Will the Minister explain why he will force amalgamation of school divisions next June, when Fort Garry chairwoman, Carol Adolphe, has said that they want to prutner with other divisions in an effort to save money and find efficiencies instead of amalgamating? Could the Minister please explain why the forcing of amalgamations would be better than allowing the school divisions to do this on a voluntary basis? Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Well, of course, Mr. Speaker, the Member, I suppose, was not paying attention

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3615 to the earlier remarks. We are encouraging shared services where it makes sense. We are encouraging resources to be shared between divisions. Certainly we have had a couple of very successful voluntary amalgamations. My favourite is Prairie Spirit in my region of the province in southwestern, south-central Manitoba. We have had a successful amalgamation that took place in St. Bonif ace Norwood.

There is some very good work being done in the field, and in fact the trustees of the province of Manitoba are to be commended for their commitment to educational excellence in this province. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, does the Minister agree with Ms. Adolphe's belief that it would not be efficient to amalgamate two large divisions that need large administrations? Mr. Caldwell: Of course, in the Department itself, we have significantly made changes, reductions in administrative structures to free up dollars, in turn, to remove it from the bureaucracy and put it into the public schools system.

We encourage all partners in the public education system to make similar decisions, to free up dollars to use in the classrooms of the province of Manitoba. Of course, we are not interested in having any decisions being made that are going to have a negative impact on the classrooms; rather our determination is to have positive impacts on the classrooms. Mrs. Smith: Mr.

Speaker, since the Minister has imposed a June 30 deadline for voluntary amalgamation, will the Minister inform this House when he will release his amalgamation plan, including his preferred boundaries, so school divisions do have the direction and information needed to make their decisions? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, there are no imposed deadlines whatsoever. There have never been any releases or statements or press conferences or policy decisions that impose school division amalgamations. Misinformation on this matter should be put to rest. Mr.

Speaker, again, it is what I have been saying over the last eight months on this issue. As has been reported in the media, as has been part of our ongoing consultation with the field, we are strongly encouraging thoughtful discussion-[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14 :00) Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are strongly encouraging thoughtful discussions, serious discussions at the local level, in partnership with neighbouring divisions, in partnership with the Department of Education, to free up resources where they are better utilized in the classrooms of the province of Manitoba.

Post-Secondary Education Funding Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): My question is to the Minister of Education, and it has to do with Manitoba universities. At the present time, Mr. Speaker, the universities have stated time and time again that they are being forced, due to the directives issued to them by this Minister of Education, to cut staff programs and also equipment purchases as a result of the decree of this minister.

In this way, this limits the ability of students to access programs at our universities, and indeed students today are looking at other universities because they will not be able to access the programs they need at our universities. My question to the Minister: Can he outline for the House and for Manitobans today exactly which programs and courses and faculties will no longer have courses available to students as a result of his directive? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans, students, academics, board members, trustees know that the consistent cutbacks in post secondary education implemented year after year after year are the cause of the problems that universities and community colleges are currently facing in the province of Manitoba. I am very proud, Mr. Speaker, as are members on this side of the House, for providing historic levels of increases to the post-secondary system this year, in stark contrast to the record

3616 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANIT OBA July 6, 2000 of the members opposite. We will continue to work with universities and community colleges to repair the tremendous damage that was done to the post-secondary institutions over the past decade as we move through our mandate. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, we have never had administrators, people at the university level speak out in the way that they are speaking out about the funding this year.

My question to the Minister of Education is whether or not he can outline which university departments and faculties are now going to be losing staff as a result of his directives, and how many positions will be lost at the universities. Mr. Caldwell: Of course, Mr. Speaker, as members opposite know, management decisions taken at the post-secondary institutions are within the purview of those institutions. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister makes my point. Universities today cannot retain students. They cannot attract students. My question to the Minister- Mr.

Speaker: Order, the Honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order again, Mr. Speaker. There is no

preamble that is available to the Member when he has a supplementary question. Would you please ask him to put a question plain and simple. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the Honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. *** Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Honourable Member for Russell to please put his question. Mr. Derkach: I want to ask the Minister of Education how our universities are to retain students, how are they to attract students as they have done in the past, and how are they to remain competitive in this global education environment, if you like, when this minister has issued directives which pose the universities an inability to create revenue and to stay competitive in our global education environ ment. Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Speaker, universities and community colleges have not had such support in over a decade. In stark contrast to the year after year after year of successive cutbacks that universities and post-secondary institutions in this province were forced to endure during the past decade. this government is proud- Mr. Speaker: Order, the Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Beauchesne's 417 : "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Mr. Speaker, I have been listening very carefully to the answers of this minister. That is all he does, every time he rises, is provokes debate and puts misinformation on the record. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all honourable members, when the Speaker rises, Beauchesne's Citation 16 8 says: When rising to preserve order or to give a ruling the Speaker must always be heard in silence.

Also, I would like to remind all honourable members that a point of order is a very serious matter, and I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members when we are dealing on a point of order. The Honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Mackintosh: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. The answer was dealing with the matter raised. If the Opposition feels that it was provoking debate, it was because it did provoke them, and they should be provoked on this issue.

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 36 17 Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I would lik e to take this opportunity to remind all ministers that, according to Beauchesne's Citation 417 , answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Honourable Minister to pl ease conclude his answer. Mr.

Caldwell: The facts are that. over the last decade, year after year of cuts to post-secondary institutions devastated, in many respects, capital resources of institutions, operating budgets of institutions- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Speaker, you might want to bring to the Minister's attention that you have made a ruling, and you have asked him to answer the question. If the Honourable Minister does not agree with your ruling, all he has to do is challenge it. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Mackintosh: On the point of order, Mr.

Speaker, the directive from you to the Minister was to answer the question, and that indeed is what he was doing. The question, as I understood it, was soliciting a response as to why the university was taking certain actions. The Minister got up and explained that the actions of the university are due to the neglect and the abandonment of post-secondary education by the members opposite for 10 or 12 years. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I would just like to, once again, remind all ministers that according to Beauchesne's Citation 417 , answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Honourable Minister of Education to pl ease conclude his answer. Mr. Caldwell: As I was concluding my remarks, the reality of post-secondary institutions right now is a very severe one. It is a consequence of a decade of severe funding cuts.

The Member asked what this government is doing to change that situation. This year this government is very pl eased to make a commitment to tuition cuts to university students and college students in the province of Manitoba as well as a reintroduction of a bursary program which makes post secondary institutions in Manitoba more attractive than it has been in a decade for young people to access and participate in college education. Sustainable Development Procurement Guidelines Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question to the Minister of Conservation: Under The Sustainable Development Act, and I quote: Within two years after the coming into force of the Act, and that is by the date of last Saturday, July 1 of this year, the Cabinet shall establish sustainable development procurement guidelines and goals and cause the guidelines to be integrated into provincial procurement manuals and procedures. * (14 :10 ) The guidelines and goals were not submitted as part of the Sustainable Development Strategy the Minister tabled last week.

I ask the Minister if he will table in the Legislature today the sustainable development procurement guidelines and goals and the documents containing the provincial procurement manuals and procedures incorporating those guidelines. Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): thank the Member for the question.

As I have said in responses to previous questions from members opposite, when we came into government here last fall , there was a need to review the whole program with a view to improving it and enhancing it and to make sure that there was some sense of balance put into the system where emphasis would be placed on

36 I8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 2000 environmental management. I want to advise the Member that those guidelines that he is referring to are currently being worked on and will be tabled as soon as they become available. Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary: In failin g to meet the legal requirements for the Sustainable Development Strategy, is the Minister breaching the laws of this province because he believes the Government is above the law? Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to advise the Member for River Heights that, yes, we are very concerned with the environment, just as I am sure he is, otherwise why would he be asking the questions. As a matter of fact, today, Mr. Speaker, there was a news release put out by the World Wildlif e Fund of Canada. I am pl eased to report to the Assembly that Manitoba ranks quite high in the rating that is given by the WWF. Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Premier.

How can the Premier expect ordinary citizens to meet legal deadlines for things lik e drivers' li cences when his government, with all the resources at its disposal, cannot meet the straightforward and simple legal time requirements for conditions like the Sustainable Development Strategy? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, when we came to office, over 60 percent of the time had expired that was put in the Environment and Sustainable Development acts without any implementation strategy that we had discovered in transition and in government.

This minister, in the first eight months, has done more work to implement the law and the Sustainable Development Strategy. He has brought in- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, order. Mr. Doer: We did make our announcement prior to July I. We are still working on the procurement policies that are important to be completed. It is very important, Mr. Speaker, that we recognize that this minister has brought in a policy to prevent the sale of bulk water from the Hudson Bay watershed. That is a positive step forward.

It is important to note the work he has done on the east side of Lake Winnipeg to protect the boreal forest, something the members opposite did not do. The Member opposite asked a question about time lines a couple of days ago, Mr. Speaker. The Chief El ectoral Officer's report, the '99 report, has not been finished in its printing. The '98 report has been released, and members opposite may want to know that our House Leader (Mr.

Mackintosh) will call the Committee on Privileges and Elections, and we will have to deal with the reports from the Chief Ele ctoral Officer from '88, from I990, from '93, '95, '98 and '99, because members opposite never did it. Persons with Disabilities Vocational Rehabilitation Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I would lik e to ask a question on behalf of my constituents who live with a disability. Many of them have had long waiting lis ts for vocational rehab, and a number of those people would be able to work. They would be willing to work if they had the support required.

I want to ask the appropriate minister to tell the House what progress is being made in this area. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I would think that the hundred thousand or so Manitobans who have disabilities would be most interested in the behaviour of the Opposition in regard to this issue. When I was in opposition, Mr.

Speaker, I had constituents, like the constituents of the Member for Radisson and I daresay constituents of a number of members opposite, who could not get training, could not get voc rehab services because there were no increases, no increases to that budget in I 0 years. I am pleased to tell the Honourable Member and all honourable members that an additional $400,000 has been

July 6, 2000 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3619 made available in this budget to begin to cut down the waiting lis ts for people who want training because they want to work. They have got disabilities. This opposition does not seem to care about those people, and that is a shame. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. It is very hard to hear the question. First Nations Casinos Public Consultations Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): It is always encouraging to see such enthusiasm across the way in regard to some of their problems.

I should mention, I forgot to either congratulate or give condolence to the new minister of gambling. Pardon me. I am sorry. I apologize. The Minister responsible for Gam ing. I apologize for that, Mr. Speaker. * (14 :20) I find it very passing strange. Here we have the Minister, who was such a great advocate when we were privatizing a Crown corporation, who is now head of the privatization of gambling, gaming, here in Manitoba.

I want to ask this Minister responsible for Gaming -yesterday, in his answers, he talked about "a balanced approach" in regard to looking at gaming here in Manitoba. and a balanced approach seemed to be a part of all his answers. I want to ask the Minister: Will he be taking a different direction in regard to the casino expansion here in Manitoba, asking for public input and public consult ation, before the casinos go into the communities? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, yesterday I talked about getting an orange book published.

I have my orange folder, and I note that when the members opposite yesterday went through my quotations in Hansard, they conveniently left out July 8 of last year in which I criticized the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) for the double standard the previous government showed in terms of aboriginal gaming versus their own gaming. So, in fact, I have had quite a history, along with all members in this House who are saying that Aboriginal people should have the same opportunities as a level of government in this province, that the provincial government had before.

I want to suggest to members opposite, who saw VLT revenue go from $4.9 milli on in 1991- 92 to $12 9 mil lion in '98-99, that they should have the nerve to stand in this House and talk about anything to do with gaming policy. What we are doing on First Nations is involving communities, dealing with the social concerns, and we will do things that the Conservative members opposite never even considered for the 11 years they were in office. Mr. Reimer: I want to ask that minister over there. Let me ask you a question, Mr. Minister. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Reimer: The Minister just made a quote about my honourable col league from Lac du Bonnet. I will ask him whether he stands behind a quote that was said by the Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) on June 2, 1998: I think it is depl orable when governments encourage gamblin g in a massive way to get more people to spend more money, in spite of the harmful consequences in individuals and families. Does he agree with that statement? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if you can copyright certain things in this House, but I think that was copyright infringement. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, that I brought in an orange folder with what I said on the record in the last decade, and you know it was interesting. I wanted to bring in a blue folder with what members opposite had said when they took VL T revenue and they increased it by 26 times and the- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order.

3620 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANIT OBA July 6, 2000 Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Spea ker. Beauchesne's 417: "A nswers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." If the Honourable Minister wants to quote from his tale from two Steves, he is welcome to do so, but we would like him to answer the question. Mr. Speaker: Or der.

On the point of order raised by the Honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader, I would like to remind the Honourable Minister that according to Beauchesne's Citation 417: Answers to questions should be brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. I would like to also remind all honourable members that, when referring to other honourable members, they are referred to by constituency or by their official ti tle. * * * Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mi nister of Highways, please conclude your answer. Mr. Ashton : Mr.

Speaker, my point was I could not bring in a folder with quotes from members opposite because, apart from the ministers, I can barely find any reference to any of the concerns that have been raised by many people throughout the province from members opposite. Many of the members who stood yesterday never said a word in a decade about gaming in this province. What we said in opposition is we wanted a balanced approach. We want to recognize up front the social costs of gambling. That is included in this proposal.

We wanted equal treatment for Aboriginal people who are a part of this province, who are a level of government. We wanted them to have the same opportunities that they had opposite, and we wanted a community say. As part of the package we brought in, every host community will have a say over whether a casino is located in that community, something that the Conservatives never did. Mr. Speaker: Or der. Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Manitoba Highway Map Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): In the rotunda of the Legislature at high noon today Highways Mi nister Steve Ashton unveiled the new official highway map for Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: Or der. I would just like to remind the Honourable Member for Flin Flon to refer to other members by constituencies or ministers by their ti tles. Mr. Jennissen: In the rotunda of the Legislature at high noon today, the Highways Mi nister unveiled the new official highway map for Manitoba. It was quite an impressive ceremony, starting with two young women from Nelson House singing 0 Canada! in Cree.

The minister spoke on the cultural diversity of Manitoba which is symbolized on the back of the map by the word "welcome" in 26 different languages. including all aboriginal languages of Manitoba. As well, many representatives from diverse cultures brought readings in their own language. As a northern MLA, it is particularly gratifying for me to note that the new map includes all of Manitoba. In other words, the North is on the map finally. On behalf of all northerners and I believe all Manitobans I thank the Minister for that.

Some may see this new larger map as a symbolic gesture only, but for us northerners it is an important gesture. I am also pleased to note that the map contains winter roads, something omitted from previous maps. Again, that omission in the past made northerners feel that their road links were not deemed important. Just to see those dotted lines on the map representing winter roads gives me a confident feeling that some of those dotted lines will soon become solid lines.

In other words, the road network needs to be extended in order to bring remote and isolated communities, mainly in northern and northeastern Manitoba, into the transportation network of the 21 st century. This gives hope to Pukatawagan, to York Landing, to II ford, to South India n Lake, to Pikwitonei, to Thicket Portage and others.

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA 3621 * (1 4:30) Already, in conjunction with the federal government, this minister and this government have significantly improved the wi nter road links to Brochet, Lac Brochet and Tadoule Lake. Great progress has been made in the last few months, and we expect even more in the future. The new highway map is a visible sign or symbol of a government that recognizes the importance of transportation for all Manitobans and is part of a larger vi sion, part of a larger progressive initiative to bring Manitoba's transportation links into the 21st century. Pioneer Days Mr.

Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today to bring members' attention to an annual event which wi ll take place in my constituency on the August long weekend. Once again residents of the Steinbach constituency are preparing for the annual Pioneer Days event in recognition and celebration of the Me nnonite heritage and the many settlers who came to Manitoba to make a home in southern Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, the heritage and history of the Mennonite people, I think, is relatively well known by members of this Chamber, but Pioneer Days offers all residents of Manitoba a chance to see how early settlers lived their lives on a day to-day basis. The majority of events wi ll take place at the Men nonite Heritage Museum on August 4, 5, 6, and 7, where visitors can see the operation of a wi ndmill, bread baked in earth ovens, threshing demonstrations and a variety of other activities which typified the life of early settlers. I note as well, Mr. Speaker, that in the gallery today we have with us Mr.

Harv Klassen who served as the executive director of the Mennonite Museum in Steinbach for many years and was instrumental in helping the museum grow and achieve financial success. In addition, he received recognition from the Department of Tourism for the work he has done for Manitoba and served on the Manitoba Heritage Council for the past few years, and did so very capably. Mr. Speaker, the members on this side of the House recognize the significant contributions members of my constituency have made to the preservation of our province's heritage.

I would hope that the Mi nister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Ms. McGif ford) would take this into consideration when she composes boards such as the Heritage Grants Advi sory Council and the Manitoba Heritage Council. In conclusion, I would like to invite all members of this Chamber to bring their family and friends to Steinbach this August long weekend to enjoy the heritage of our province. Thank you. College Jeanne-Sauve Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Le 29 juin 2000 j'ai eu le plaisir d'assister a Ia remise des diplomes du College Jeanne-Sauve, ecole secondaire d'immersion a Saint-Vital.

Mon fils, Lee, a ete finissant du College il y a cinq ans et j'etais tres fiere de retablir mes liens avec cette ecole. M. Edward Labossiere, maitre des ceremonies, nous a accueill is avec ses mots de bienvenue. M. Christian Mi chalik, directeur, a partage son message a l'occasion de Ia distribution des diplomes a 11 2 finissants et finissantes. Ml le. Selena Papetti, finissante, nous a souhaites Ia bienvenue au nom des finissants et des finissantes. Julia et Lauren Sharma ont prononce le discours d'adieu.

Plusieurs prix et bourses ont ete presentees par les invites et les enseignants, y compris le Prix de Ia deputee de Riel que fai donne a Graham MacF arlane, finissant de l'an 2000 . Cette annee marque le dixieme anniversaire du College Jeanne-Sauve. Cette soiree etait le dernier evenement public pour M. Norbert Philippe, directeur general de Ia divis ion scolaire, qui prenait sa retraite apres 26 ans a Saint-Vital. Monsieur Labossiere, enseignant au College depuis son ouverture, disait au revoir a l'enseignement le 30 juin. Bonne chance a ces deux educateurs a l'avenir.

Fe licitations aux finissants et finissantes de l'an 2000 qui ont merite un diplome en immersion fran�Yaise. Bravo aux parents qui ont

3622 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANIT OBA July 6, 2000 choisi une education fran�aise pour leurs jeunes. Merci. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. [Translation} On June 29, 2000, I had the pleasure of attending the graduation ceremony at College Jeanne-Sauve, a secondary immersion school in St. Vital. My son, Lee, graduated from that school five years ago and I was proud to re establish my links with his school. Mr. Edward Labossiere, who was the master of ceremonies, welcomed us with his opening remarks. Mr.

Christian Mi chalik, the Principal, shared his message on the occasion of the distribution of diplomas to 11 2 graduates. Ms. Selena Papetti, a graduating student, welcomed us on behalf of the graduating class. Julia and Lauren Sharma made the farewell speech. Several prizes and scholarships were presented by the guests and teachers, including the Member for Riel Prize which I gave to Graham MacFarlane, a graduate for the year 2000. This year marks the 1O th anniversary of College Jeanne-Sauve, and that evening was the final public event for Mr.

Norbert Philippe, the Superintendent of the school divi sion who was retiring after 26 years in St. Vital. Mr. Labossiere, a teacher at the College since it opened, was bidding farewell to teaching on June 30 . Good luck to these two educators in the future. Congratulations to the graduates for the year 2000 who received a diploma in French immersion. Bravo to the parents who chose French education for their young people. Thank you. Russell Statue Restoration Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): Today I rise to make a very unusual kind of private member's statement, one that is an issue that has some sadness to it but indeed has a happy ending. Mr. Speaker, the town of Russell received a longed-for Canada Day present last weekend, and I was very happy to learn that the head of the memorial statue of a soldier that was vandalized last Halloween was returned and recovered by the RCMP. This statue, a monument that was erected in 19 22, is an important symbol for the community.

Damage to the head is said to be minor, and the town will be getting professional advice on whether to reattach the head or go ahead with plans that were in place in order to repair the statue to its former condition. With the return of the statue's head, the work will be cheaper than originally estimated at $1 5,000 . In March of this year, Second Lieutenant Clarence Lazaruk of the Russell Air Cadet Squadron secured a grant to help pay for the $1 1, 000 reconstruction of the statue's head from the Department of National Defence.

As well, $1 ,000 has been donated locally to the town's fund for the statue's repair. Calgary sculptor Gernot Kiefer has agreed to create the new part from the same type of granite used in the statue's original construction in the 19 20s. I would like to commend Second Lieutenant Clarence Lazaruk, the Russell Air Cadet Squadron and all of those involved with the restoration of the statue. I would also like to commend those who returned the statue's head for having the courage to do the right thing.

Due to the efforts of the people of Russell, an important part of the town's history and heritage will be restored to its original form. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ernest Abas Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today to pay tribute to a constituent of mine named Ernest Abas, who lives in the Hodgson area in the R.M . of Fis her. Mr. Abas has been a municipal councillor there for many years now, but he has also served his people in another capacity in that he has been a volunteer weather watcher for Environment Canada for more than 30 years.

For this selfless contribution to society, Mr. Abas was recently given the Environment Canada Long-Term Service A ward by the national government. Ernie began his stint as a weather observer in the late 19 60s after the mass closure of rural train stations led Environment Canada to seek

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANIT OBA 3623 local volunteers to take up the task. As part of his position, he is responsible for checking and logging the readings on official equipment located at his house each day. His input and contribution to the overall picture has been very helpful to the farming community, in particular, as weather plays such an integral role in their daily lives. On behalf of the people of the Interlake and the Government of Manitoba, I thank Mr. Abas for his contribution. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DA Y House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I wi sh to announce that the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Com mittee will meet on Tuesday, July 11 , at 10 a.m., to consider Bi ll 15. Mr. Speaker: It has been announced that the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Commit tee will meet on Tuesday, July 11 , at 10 a.m., to consider Bill 15 . Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I wi sh to obtain the unanimous consent of the House to vary the sequence for Estimates consideration set out in Sessional Paper 138 to consider in Room 254 the Estimates of the Department of Family Services and Housing to follow after Capital Investments. Mr.

Speaker, these changes are to apply un til further notice. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): I would ask if the Government House Leader could give consideration to moving the Healthy Child Initiative over. It also falls under the same minister's area. It is the next one fol lowing. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I would add to that then the Healthy Child Init iative if there is consent. Mr. Speaker: Is there consent for, in Room 254, Family Services to follow Healthy Child and Capital Investments until further notice? Agreed? Or der.

In Room 254, Family Services and Housing to follow after Capital Investments and Healthy Child to follow after Capital Invest ments as well. Is that agreed? [Agreed] Mr. Mackin tosh: Mr. Speaker, before con sidering Supply motion, would you please call debate on second readings, Bil1 41. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 41-The Balanced Budget, Debt Repayment and Taxpayer Protection Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Min ister of Fi nance (Mr.

Selinger), Bill 41, The Balanced Budget, Debt Repayment and Taxpayer Protection Amendment and Con sequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'equilibre budgetaire, le remboursement de Ia dette et Ia protection des contribuables et modifications correlatives), standing in the name of the Honourable Me mber for Fort Whyte. * (1 4:40) Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I am pleased to see debate on this bill proceed, and I would like to concede the floor to the Member for Kirk field Park. Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): I am pleased to make a few comments today on this bill and on these proposed amendments.

Fi rst of all, recognizing that this legislation is quite unique in many respects, one of the reasons is, I think as all members know, that this legislation requires, I believe, seven days' notice in terms of moving it forward to committee to ensure that there is adequate and reasonable opportunity for Manitobans to have time enough to make representation if a government is to propose any amendments to the legislation. Mr. Speaker, in terms of looking at this legislation, I want to reflect back to November of 19 95 when this legislation was first passed.

I think anybody who looks at the comments made at that time will recall and will see that the analysts and the financial community called this legislation the most comprehensive and the

3624 LEGI SLATI VE ASSEMB LY OF MANIT OBA July 6, 2000 strongest in all of Canada. They were extremely complimentary of this legislation.

Again, I think, it is important to remember that this legislation has three very important elements: It requires that we balance our budgets each and every year in the Province of Mani toba; it also put in place a debt retirement plan to ultimately eliminate our general purpose debt over no more than 30 years; and, of course, it also included an element of taxpayer protection where taxes could not be in creased in the Province of Manitoba without a province-w ide referendum, and the taxes covered by this legis lation were personal income tax, corporation taxes, the payroll tax and the retail sales tax, Mr.

Speaker. What was interesting, of course, during the debate when this bill was first introduced were the comments and the attitude taken by the Offi cial Opposition of the day at that particular point in time. When we get to third reading of this bill, Mr. Speaker, I will make a point of bringing in excerpts from Hansard and the comments made by many members who at that point in time were in opposition. Of course, we know at that parti cular point in time, the NDP opposition opposed this legislation right down the line, and they ultimately voted against this legislation.

What was even more telling were the kinds of comments made by many members who were in opposition at that time, referring to this legis lation as the laughing stock of the country, saying that it was not possible to balance the books each and every year, that that was ridicu lous, that it should be balanced on a cycle and so on. Of course, today, we see the conversion of those members opposite where they are sup porting with this legislation all of those fun damental aspects that were put in place and passed back in 19 95.

In fact, when the government of the day today, when they put out their release around the proposed amendments, the Mi nister concluded by noting that the pro posed changes do not affect the requirements for balancing the Op erating Fund, nor do they alter any of the penalties for non-compliance, and that requirements for a referendum before increasing major taxes also remain unchanged.

So it is interesting that when the bill was first introduced and passed back in 1995, members opposite op posed all of those fundamental aspects, and, today, not only are they supporting them, but they are making a point of highlighting their support for those very important aspects of the legislation, Mr. Speaker. In terms of the explanatory notes under Bill 41, as we get to committee, we will be asking some questions.

I think it is important for all of us to get a very clear understanding of how the Committee deals with the Debt Retirement Fund Allocation Committee, I believe it is called in the Act, which I believe will be chaired by the Deputy Mi nister of Finance and will also consist of I believe four other individuals appointed by the Li eutenant-Governor-in-Council. We will want to get further clarity from the Mi nister and from the government exactly how that com mittee will function and details around their responsibilities and so on.

There is reference in the legislation to some parameters around the Committee, but we will certainly be looking for ward to a more detailed explanation from the Min ister at that time. I also note that the legislation, of course, is being amended to include a debt repayment for the pension liability that exists for the Govern ment of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, that is a positive step that we support, and we will be looking for further details from the Mi nister.

He has referenced some of them in the Bu dget docu ment and in this document in terms of the allocations between the general purpose debt of the Province of Manitoba, and, of course, the pension liabilities. So, again, I am sure we wi ll receive further details around those very im portant issues. The legislation also deals with some changes as proposed by the Provincial Auditor in terms of the treatment of transfers from our Debt Retirement Fund and our Fis cal Stabilization Fund. Those certainly are appropriate recommendations and changes to the legislation. So it is very interesting.

With these amend ments, Mr. Speaker, the overriding direction of the legislation in terms of balancing the books, paying down the debt and taxpayer protection are all being maintained by the Government, and

July 6, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3625 we applaud that. We are pl eased to see that because they are very important for the future of this province. What is very telling is the conversion of those members opposite from the kinds of com ments that they made back in 19 95, the kinds of comments they made even subsequent to the legislation and this tremendous conversion we are seeing today where they recognize that Manitobans expect their governments to be fiscally responsible. They expect their govern ments to balance the books every year. They expect their governments to pay down the debt.

They expect their governments not to increase taxes. In fact, they expect their governments to be reducing taxes. In fact, I noticed in the recent poll released by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Sel inger) that just under 50 percent of Manitobans did not ex pect this government to reduce taxes. That is a very telling percentage, Mr. Speaker. Again, I think it was reflected in this budget, because, again, most who have analyzed this budget from a tax perspective have come to the conclusion that this 2000 budget fell very short in the whole area of taxes.

So it is important to maintain the taxpayer protection aspects of this legis lation that were put in place back in 19 95. I am pleased to see that none of those fundamental issues are, in fact, being changed with the proposed amend ments. Mr. Speaker, in terms of looking at the other explanatory notes, I notice the one other aspect is the proposal to change the title of the Bill to The Balanced Budget Debt Repayment and Taxpayer Accountability Act.

The word "ac countability" is replacing "protection." I am as suming, and with the amendments that have been put in place that are not changing some of that protection, "accountability" encompasses the protection for taxpayers. Once again, recog nizing that the accountabili ty aspect still includes the protection for taxpayers, that amendment does not seem to be problematic. But, Mr. Speaker, we will be looking for ward to seeing whether or not these proposed amendments draw reaction from the public.

As I had indicated, the requirement is for the seven days' notice for the public to be able to attend and participate at committee. But, on an overall basis, we are certainly pleased that the Govern ment has seen fit to support all of the key substantive elements of the legisla tion that currently exist in Manitoba. It was described as the most comprehensive, the strongest in all of Canada.

I believe it still is today, and we are very pleased that the legisla tion that we pio neered in this province, that we introduced and we had passed as a government is being main tained by this government today. * (1 4 :50) With those very brief comments today we are certainly prepared to move this bill to com mittee to hear first-hand from Manitobans who may want to appear and participate and bring forward their views of the legisla tion.

We will have some questions at committee that might well lead to proposed amendments during that process, and, certainly, when we get back here for third reading, we will have an opportunity to speak further at length about the importance of this legisla tion, about some of the things that members opposite said about this legislation back in 19 95, about this tremendous conversion of theirs, this basic flip-flop of theirs over this period of time in terms of now supporting this legisla tion which they spoke so much against and adamantly opposed just a few years ago.

So we are pleased to see that they have converted, that they are now supporting the legislation we introduced in the past, just like we saw them support our 19 99 budget. That cer tainly, I believe, is a compliment to our vision and our foresight in introducing this legisla tion that the current government of the day has seen fit to endorse and continues to support, that recognizes the very important aspect of keeping that legislation in place. So I very much look forward to further debate on this legisla tion and to hearing from Manitobans.

With those few words, we are prepared to move these amendments to com mittee, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, just to speak briefly, I am ready to proceed to committee with this bill and lis ten to

3626 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 2000 the wishes of the citizens of Manitoba and look forward to the discussion at the committee stage. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading ofBill 41, The Balanced Budget, Debt Repayment and Taxpayer Protection Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act. Is it the pl easure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): would like to move, seconded by the Minister for Cult ure (Ms.

McGifford), that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Committee Changes Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) for Inkster (Ms. Barrett); Dauphin-Rob lin (Mr. Struthers) for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway); Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoft) for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). Motion agreed to. House Business Mr.

Selinger: I wish to announce that the Law Amendments Committee will meet on Monday, July 17, at I 0 a.m., to consider the following bill: Bill 41. Mr. Speaker: It is announced that the Law Amendments Committee will meet on Monday, July 17, at I 0 a.m., to consider the following bill: Bill 41. [Agreed] Mr. Marcel Laurendeau {Opposition House Leader): On House business, Mr. Speaker, does that give us the seven clea r days required by the legislation? Is it seven sitting days? [interjection] Seven days. Okay. Mr. Speaker: It does give the seven days. Mr.

Selinger: I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Ms. McGifford), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a com mittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS * ( 15 :00 ) Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. When the Committee last sat, there had been agreement to have a gl obal discussion on an en tire de partment. Is that still the will of the Committee? [Agreed} We are on line l. (

b) Administration and Finance, Executive Support (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $323,700 . Shall the item pass? Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): I would just lik e to read one short paragraph into the record and then we will close it, this being from the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, Statement of Policy and Resolution: The goal of any legis lation governing competition in business should be to maximize public well-being through the most efficient use of resources. This objective can best be achieved by allowing the competitive market process to determine the method by which resources are allocated. The aim of legisla tion, in our view, should be to ensure that effective competition is main-

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3627 tained and the consumer is protected against abuses of market power. The Manitoba Cham bers of Commerce believes that it is important that a proper balance be struck between consumer protection and efficiency in order that industry has sufficient flexibil ity to seek new ways of achieving efficiency and pre-paring itself for greater competition on a global base. Having said that, I would accept the passage of the Consumer and Corporate Affairs Estimates. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I thank the Member for that statement.

I just want to state that today I received the answers to the questions I took as notice yesterday. I could provide those either verbally now or certainly I can provide some thing in writing to the Member as soon as possible, whichever he would prefer. It might take some time to read it into the record now. I guess I am posing the question back to my critic from Steinbach. Mr. Jim Penner: Mr. Chairman, there are three pages here, part of three pages, questions on the Residential Tenancies Branch. Could I just add these to that, the other questions, and then they can be submitted in writing? Mr. Lemieux: Yes.

I think that is a fair way to proceed. As soon as you can provide me with those questions, if I cannot answer them directly, I will certainly ask my staff to look at the ques tions and at the earliest possible date get back to the Member for Steinbach, the critic for Con sumer and Corporate Affairs. At this time, I am wondering if I could just conclude also by making a short statement. I would just like to comment, not only on the pro fessionalism of the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner) in the way he addressed his ques tions, but the sincerity in which they were asked.

Whether they be questions with regard to Churchill or otherwise, they were questions that he asked from the heart and from the sincere approach that he has taken. As the Minister responsible for this depart ment, it certainly is much appreciated because I sat in on a couple of other occasions on other ministers when they were being grilled. I just wanted to say to the Member for Steinbach that I appreciate his sincerity, and I appreciate his professionalism with which he conducted himself. * (15:10 ) I would lik e to conclude by saying that I just want to thank my staff for being here.

I want to state that, with regard to being a new Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, it certainly has been an experience. I want to pass along an invi tation at any time for my critic, the Member for Steinbach, certainly on an informal basis, if he has any questions related to the Department in which he is a critic for, to approach me at any time. I would certainly be willing to try to assist him in any way. I just want to say that the Department itself is certainly trying to adhere to its goals and objectives in the criteria that have been laid out by the Department.

I made mention in my earlier remarks on many positive things that the pre vious government has done. I mentioned about life lease, which is truly, I think, a really im portant piece of legislation that they pursued. It is very good consumer legislation. Also, I know that there are going to be some initiatives that we are going to be taking, whether they be the continuation of BSI and other areas and having that going to personal property or other areas, whether they be special operating agencies or other areas within my department.

I know some of them are a con tinuation of the previous administration, but also we have some new initiatives. I would be pl eased, prior to introducing anything lik e that, to certainly inform my critic, the Member for Steinbach, ofthose initiatives. So, on that note, Mr. Chair, I just want to thank you for the opportunity as a new minister to present my Estimates. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Chairperson, I have a friendly question for the Minister. I wonder if he could provide me with a copy of the questions and answers that were submitted

3628 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 2000 by the critic on the Residential Tenancies legis lation. I would be interested in it since I helped write the legislation in the late 1980s and was here when it was passed. It affects a lot of my constituents, and I would be very interested in the answers and the questions. Mr. Jim Penner: I have no objection. Mr. Chairperson: Shall we go on with passing the lines? [Agreed] We will start with 5. 1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $323 ,700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $49,700-pass. 1.(

c) Administrative Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $553 ,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $161 ,500-pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from Legislative Assembly ($ 171 ,900 }-pass. 1.(

d) Research and Planning (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $16 3,8 00. The item is passed accordingly. AD Honotlnlble Member: Accordingly passed. Mr. Chairperson: 5.I .(d)

(2) Other Expendi tures $32,400. The item is accordingly passed. An Honourable Member: There, you have got it. Mr. Chairperson: I always think the adverb follo ws the verb, if you want to speak in correct grammar. We will continue. 5. l .(

e) First Nations Casino Selection Committee $17 3,900-pass. l. (

f) Vital Statistics Agency. 2. Consumer Affairs (

a) Consumers' Bureau (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $897,0 00- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $219,600-pass. 2.(

b) Residential Tenancies Branch (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,453 ,000- pass; Other Expenditures $696,600-pass. 2.(

c) Automobile Injury Compensation Appeals Commission

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $483 ,3 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $12 2,400-pa ss. 2.(

d) Residential Tenancies Commission (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $454,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 09,600-pass. 2.(

e) Grants $87 ,700-pass. Resolution 5.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,5 23,800 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Consumer Affairs, for the fiscal year ending the 3 I st day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. 3. Corporate Affairs (

a) Financial Institutions Regulation

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $706,5 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $303 ,600-pass. 3 .(

b) Public Util ities Board (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $597,400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $7 51 ,200-pass. 3.(

c) Manitoba Securities Commission. 3.(

d) Property Registry. 3.(

e) Companies Office. Resolution 5.3 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,35 8,700 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Corporate Affairs, for the fiscal year ending the 3 1st day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 5.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $229,900 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Amortization of Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs is item 1. Administration and Finance (

a) Minister's Salary $27,3 00-pass.

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 3629 * (15 :20) Resolution 5.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1, 314 ,000 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of the Depart ment of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is the Estimates of the Department of Employee Pen sions and Other Costs. Shall we briefly recess to allow the Minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next set of Estimates? [Agreed} The Committee recessed at 3:21p.m. The Committee resumed at 3:24 p.m. EMPLOYEE PENSIONS AND OTHER COSTS Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply pl ease come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Employee Pensions and Other Costs. Does the Honourable Minister of Employee Pensions and Other Costs have an opening statement? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): No. Mr. Chairperson: No opening statement. We thank the Minister for his comments, very brief. Does the Official Opposition cnttc, the Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park, have any opening comments? Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): I will be just as brief and elo quent. Mr. Chairperson : I thank you for those state ments. We will now proceed to line 6.1 (

a) Civil Service Superannuation Plan $50,34 4, 100. Shall the item pass? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I think I know the answer to the question, but I want to confirm it. Could the Minister just outline the reason for the increase in the year 2000 from 1999? Mr. Selinger: As I am sure the former minister understands, it is simply the match for the ser vice on a pay-as-you-go basis for civil servants that are retired and eligible for the benefits. Mr. Stefanson: No further questions, Mr. Chair man. Mr. Chairperson: 6.1 .(

a) Civil Service Superannuation Pla n $50,3 44, 1 00-pass. 1.(

b) Other Sala ry Rela ted Benefits $3,5 00,000-pass. l. (

c) Workers' Compensation Board

(1) Assessments re: Accidents to Government Em ployees $3,8 16,000-pass;

(2) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations $3 ,80 1,000. l. (

d) Canada Pension Plan $1 9,466,000. Shall the item pass? Mr. Stef anson: Mr. Chairman, again, I am assuming the increased cost here is driven by the increase in the maximum pensionable earnings, and as a result of that the contributions by em ployees and employers. Mr. Selinger: Yes. Mr. Chairperson: 6.1 .(

d) Canada Pension Plan $19 ,466,000-pass. l. (

e) Employ ment Insurance Plan $1 7,7 4 7 ,400-pass. l. (

f) Civil Service Group Life Insurance $1 ,645 ,600-pass. 1.(

g) Dental Plan $5,845, 500-pass. 1.(

h) Long Term Disability Plan $3 ,497,000-pass. 1.

G) Ambulance and Hospital Semi-Private Plan $308, 700-pass. 1.(

k) Vision Care $1 ,052,400-pass.

3630 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 2000 l. (

m) Levy for Health and Post-Secondary Education $13, 803,400-pass. l. (

n) Less: Recoverable from other appro priations $63,366, 000-pass. Resolution 6.1. : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $53 ,859 , 100 for Employee Pensions and Other Costs for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 200 1. Resolution agreed to. This concludes Employee Pensions and Other Costs. The next department is Enabling Appro priations. * (15: 30) ENABLING APPROPRIATIONS Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Does the Minister responsible have an opening statement? Hon. Greg Sdiager (Minister of Finance): No. Mr.

Chairperson: Does the opposition critic have an opening statement? Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): No. Mr. Chairperson: The Minister's staff may join our minister here at the table. We will look at 26.1. Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote (

a) Winnipeg Development Agreement

(1) Operating Grants $765,7 00-pass;

(2) Capital Grants $50 1 ,000-pass. l. (

b) Flood Proofing Programs

(1) Capital Grants $6,895,900. Shall the item pass? Mr. Stefanson: I am just wondering whether or not the Minister has a breakdown of the potential allo cation in this area, and, if so, if he could pro vide it or if he could undertake to provide what he is expecting this amount to be alloca ted to wards for the year 2000-2001. Mr. Selinger: Are you talking about Flood Proofing Programs? This alloc ation continues the work that was started under the flood-proofing programs arising out of the '97 flood, and we would be happy to give you a breakdown.

We have the information here, and. as the Member knows, this really represents 20 percent of the total amount allocated to that. We will give you a full breakdown. We have it available. If you want it now, we can do it. Mr. Stefanson: The Minister can just forward it. Mr. Chairperson: l. (

b) Flood Proofing Programs

(1) Capital Grants $6,895, 900-pass;

(2) Infrastructure $545,0 00-pass. 1.(

c) Framework Agreement on Treaty Land Entitlements $450,0 00-pass. I .(

d) General Agreement on the Promotion of Official Languages $775,000-pass. l. (

e) Manitoba Innovations $7,000,000. Shall the item pass? Fund Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman. similarly. I am wondering if the Minister could provide me with a copy of what has been committed to date against that $7 million? I do not know if he is in a position to outline how the remainder would potentially be utilized. But, certainly. I know there have been some announcements, I believe. to date. Again, if he can undertake to provide that information. Mr. Selinger: Yes, we will provide that information. Take that as notice. Mr. Chairperson: l. (

e) Manitoba Innovations Fund $7,000, 000-pass; Less: Recoverable from Capital Initiatives. l. (

t) National Infrastructure Program $4,000,000. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am just wondering if the Minister could outline fairly briefly what the status of this program currently is. Mr. Selinger: I should first of all say that the infrastructure program is under the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), no longer the Minister of Finance. There are con-

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 363 1 sultations going on with the federal government. The amount of money that we had hoped to get is not as much as we had originally estimated. I think it is in the order, if this would be helpful, of $61 mill ion. We had expected maybe $10 million to $14 million more than that. Of course, it is spread out over several years, as you will know. So we had booked $4 milli on here to trigger our portion of that responsibility. Negotiations carry on. No final announce ments are made.

As you know, this will be driven by the electoral cycle at the federal level, but we are continuing to work to get as much of a federal contribution there as possible to infra structure in Manitoba. Mr. Chairperson: 1.(

f) National Infrastructure Program $4,000,000-pass. Resolution 26.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $20.932,600 for Enabling Appropriations, Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 200 1. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 26.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,400,000 for Enabling Appropriations, Sus tainable Development Inn ovations Fund, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 26.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,500, 000 for Enabling Appropriations, Justice In itiatives, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March. 2001. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 26.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $25,000,000 for Enabling Appropriations, In ternal Reform, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Shall the resolution pass? Mr. Stefanson: A couple of questions.

I am wondering first of all if the Minister could pro- vide a reconcilia tion of the actual s for 1999- 2000 from this account. Mr. Selinger: I will take that as notice and try to provide that for you. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am assuming, because there are some outstanding colle ctive agreements, I of course reference the com mentary for this section, but that there is some all ocation out of the $25 milli on for potential settlements with employees. I am not looking for the position of the Government but that there is some alloca tion.

As well, could the Minister just outline what some of the other categories would be for the upcoming year in terms of utilizing this account? Mr. Selinger: Yes, without being specific as to the proportions, there are Service First Initiatives, Service First Fund, reviews of agro logy and veterinarian services, Management Internship Program, Aboriginal Management Development program, Executive Training Fund, Better Systems Initiative, operating and maintenance and amortization. Those are some of the categories that are inclu ded within that envelope. * (15: 40) Mr. Stefanson: I am assuming, Mr.

Chairman, that there is some all ocation for potential set tlements with the colle ctive agreement. Mr. Selinger: Yes. Mr. Chairperson: Resolution 26.4: RE SOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $25 milli on for Enabling Appropriations, Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustment and General Sala ry Increases, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. This concludes the Estimates for Enabling Appropriations. OTHER APPROPRIATIONS Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): We will now move on to Other Appropriations. Does

3632 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 2000 the Minister responsible have an opening statement? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): No, I do not. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Does the official critic have an opening statement? Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): No. Mr. Chairperson: I thank you. We will then move on to resolution 27.1. Emergency Expen ditures, Existing Programs, $20 million. Shall the item pass? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am just won dering if the Minister could indicate how much of this $20 milli on has been utilized to date. Mr.

Selinger: As the Member might recall, this appropriation includes money for disaster relief. To date that has been the main draw on it, a draw we guesstimated in the order of $6 milli on to deal with fires in Manitoba up until now. Mr. Stefanson: I realize this area can be quite volat ile. Is the Minister comfortable that this is still a reasonable all ocation for the year 2000- 2001? Mr. Selinger: Given the weather that we have had, it is looking good at the moment. Mr. Chairperson: I. Emergency Expenditures, Existing Programs, $20 mill ion-pass; 1997 Flood Rela ted Expenditures.

Resolution 27.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $20 mill ion for Other Appropriations, Emergency Expenditures, $20 milli on, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 200 I. Resolution agreed to. 27.2. Al lo wance for Losses and Ex penditures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities, Manitoba Potash Corporation $250,000-pass; Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. $525,000. Shall the item pass? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Chairman, I am just going by memory, and I know it is not the direct responsibility for the Minister of Finance and there will be opportunities at committee at some point to deal with this corporation, but the last couple of years the financial performance of this corporation has improved fairly significantly, driven by participation at the two golf courses, with both Falcon Lake and Hecla and I think some gradual increase in occupancy rates at Gull Harbour. I am just wondering, in terms of the financial information that the Minister currently has, whether or not that continues to be the case. Mr.

Selinger: The golf courses do we ll. However, the Member might recall at Hecla this year there was a problem in the food services area of the Hecla resort. That had some negative publicity and that publicity reduced the amount of demand for those facilities for a while. So there has been some operating problems there. I think a short shutdown was required to clea n that facil ity up, and some of those operational re quirements still have to be attended to. Then, of course, the proper marketing has to occur to rebuild confidence in the use of that facil ity.

So I think it has affected revenues on the motel side or hotel side of it. Mr. Chairperson: 27.2. Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. $525, 000-pass. Resolution 27.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $775 ,000 for Other Appropriations, Allo wance for Losses and Expenditures incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. I will read Capital Initiatives which has no amounts, 27.3.; 27.4. Mil lennium Fund has no amounts. This completes the Estimates for Other Appropriations. CAPITAL INVESTMENT Mr.

Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): We will now move on to Capital Investments on page 144 of the main Estimates book. Does the Minister responsible for Capital Investment have an opening statement?

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3633 Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): No. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Does the official critic have an opening statement? Mr. Eric Stefanson (Kirkfield Park): No. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. We will move on to Capital Investment. Resolution B.l: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 76,200 for Capital Investment, Agriculture and Food, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution B.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $600,000 for Capital Investment, Conservation, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. Resolution B.3 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $89,200 for Capital Investment, Education and Training, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001 . Resolution agreed to. I will read into the record No. 4 Family Services and Housing, which has no amount. B.4.5. Finance (

a) Better Methods Initiative $8,000 ,000-pass; (

b) Document Management Pilot $18 6,000-pass; (

c) Equipment Acquisition $1 00,000-pass. Resolution B.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $8,286 ,000 for Capital Investment, Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. * (15 :50) Resolution B.5.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,000,000 for Capital Investment, Health, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Shall the resolution pass? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Chairman, I know when I met with the Minister some time ago, he pointed out that the Provincial Auditor was doing a review of some aspects of the SmartHealth ini tiative. I am just wondering if that review has been compl eted and/or whether or not the Minister has received that report yet. Mr. Selinger: I have not received the report. I am assuming that it has not been compl eted be cause of that. Mr. Chairperson: Resolution B.5.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,000,000 for Capital Investment, Health, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001.

Resolution agreed to. B.6.7. Highways and Government Services (

a) Highways Capital Projects $6, 122,300-pass. (

b) Government Services Capital Projects $12 ,600,000-pass. (

c) Air Services Capital Projects $1 ,936,300-pass. (

d) Desktop Management Initiative $3,000,000. Resolution agreed to. Resolution B.6.7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $23,65 8,600 for Capital Investment, Highways and Government Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day ofMarch, 2001. Resolution agreed to. Resolution B.7.8: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $90,000 for Capital Investment, Justice, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. Resolution B.8 .9: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding

3634 LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 2000 $17 ,10 0,000 for Capital Investment, Internal Re form, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2001. Resolution agreed to. This concludes the Estimates in Capital In vestment. Thank you. FAMILY SERVICES AND HOUSING Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): We will now move on to Family Services. Do you wish to take a brief recess of about five minutes? Will the Minister's staff please come forward? This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Famil y Services and Housing. When the Committee last sat, there had been agreement to have a global discussion on the entire department. Is that still the will of the Committee? [Agreed] We are on line 9.1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $566,900. Shall the item pass? Hon. Tim Sale (Min ister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Chairperson, certainly subject to my critic's cla rification, but I think what we had agreed was that we were working through in order, but that we were holding the motions to pass to the very end. We are actually, I believe, at 9.2.(b), Income Assistance Pro grams. I am not sure whether we are at 2.(

b) or 2.( c), but we are somewhere in between those two. But we have not passed any motions. We did agree that we would just move on through the whole department and do the motions at the end, and my critic was indicating each time he was moving from one

section to the next. Mr. Chairperson: The floor is then open for questions. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): I believe I left a question open at the end of the Estimates procedure yesterday. I wonder if the Minister's memory is better than mine. Mr. Sale: I believe that the critic's question had to do with whether we had relaxed or changed any of the standards of programs in regard to the receipt of income support. Is that the question? Mr. Cummings: That is correct. Mr. Sale: I think that the answer to that question is no.

The Department has a very complex set of regulations that have both prescriptive and flexible components. There has been no change in the regulations or in the direct policy of the department. Mr. Cummings: WelL I would be interested in the Minister's comments. He was fairly definitive with his derision of some of the incen tive concepts that were in place in the Depart ment and has indicated that he has made some changes in that direction. That is fine. That is certainly his prerogative.

What I am interested in understanding, however, is while we have a declining caseload right now-the empl oyment levels are good. In many cases, I think, it could be argued that we have reached a level where those who continue to be unemployed are either located in an area where it is difficult to find employment or they are individuals who have not got sufficient skills, in many cases, to main tain or accept opportunities in the workforce.

Yesterday we discussed that what we see in savings on the employment assistance side is probably being offset by the fact that there is an increasing demand for disabil ity assistance, and I think the numbers confirm that.

I have no pro blem with that understanding of the caseloads that are out there, but down the road, of course, this can be cyclical, and one of the things that offsets cyclic al problems that, I think, con tinually would pla gue this side of government, and that is that where jobs are tied to cyclical functions in the economy, where we have some significant resource-based jobs which by their very nature can be cyclical.

What is the Minister's strategy in terms of retraining, in terms of getting both those able-bodied and disabled in a position for job readiness and opportunity? * (1 6:00) I am talking about the bigger picture in the sense that, well, I am sure he is proud of the

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3635 numbers that are being shared regarding the reduced unemployment caseload or those who need assistance because of unemployment, a temporary inability to cover their costs of living and other essentials. He must be equally well aware that this can change. The only way he can win this battl e, in my view, is to have a strategy to train, to provide opportunities for those who want to be in the workforce, which he says is the vast majority, and I think it probably is.

I wonder if he could share his strategies and where he sees, if he has made any changes in terms of how he would implement programs or programs that should be enhanced. Or is it sim ply a matter of taking the savings today and putting them into the areas that demand is cal lin g for them? Can he indicate whether he intends to expand or enhance programs to make people more job ready as part of a long-term strategy to deal with what I believe will even tually come around? Mr.

Sale: Just before I answer that, I want to give the Member a bit of information that he asked for yesterday in terms of the sort of ma jor staffing components of the Income Security area of our department. We were discussing what was the typical staff. That will perhaps give him a sense of how many direct line staff are intake co ordinators or whatever term you want to use who are doing the direct service to clie nts versus ad ministrative and other support. I think this is an absolutely vital area that the Member is raising, Mr. Chairperson.

Let me say first that when Canada decided to end the Canada Assistance Plan in 1994-95. many pro vinces, and I am sure his government when they were in power had this realization, but many go vernments perhaps did not immediately recog nize the tremendous exposure which that policy change led to for provinces and territories. Essentially what it means is that an extra session will cost the provinces 1 00-cent dolla rs.

For all intents and purposes, Canada has walked away from countercyclical spending, whether it is in the employment assistance program, which covers only about 34 percent of Canadians now, or whether it is in the area of health and social transfers or post-secondary education, where essentially the costs we know always rise during a recession for all kinds of reasons. In the past, federal expenditures used to follo w provincial costs in these areas, and of course they no longer do.

It is even more important now that provinces do everything they possibly can to essentially plan for the fact that the laws of economics probably have not been repealed yet and there will at some point in the future be a recession. Nobody knows for sure when, but it would be a strange situation where we suddenly became a recession-proof worl d. I do not think any of us think we are in that kind of situation. So his questions are very important ones. First of all, he asked yesterday whether we had undertaken any particula r initiatives in the research area.

We did undertake a very ma jor or are in the process of working through a very ma jor initiative with the Department of Education and Training to work with them to cla rify where appropriate training takes place, whether it is under the aegis of the Department of Education and Training or whether it is Wlder our department. That of course is in part driven by the labour market training programs that were also devolved from Canada to provinces with a relatively short-! believe the initial agreement of three years has been extended-period of time that that agreement covered in its initial stage.

We are working with the Department of Education and Training to strengthen those programs in terms of their del ivery, their evalua tion, and the word might be their seamlessness, so that people can get the appropriate support they need to become more independent without going through several programs to find it, and that they will not be put through cookie-cutter kinds of programs which turn out people who may be good buggy-whip makers but there may be a shortage of buggy-whip manufacturers.

Unfortunately, provinces and the federal government do not have a wonderful record of being ahead of the market in terms of being able to train for emerging jobs and for impending shortages in areas. I do not know why that is, but there are studies going back at least 30 years, going over essentially the policy fail ures of all levels of government to anticipate and respond to training needs and opportunities.

3636 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 2000 It is a very difficult field to be effective in based on our past records as governments. We have not been very good at this. Our response to that has been to become more community-driven. In other words, to li sten to the community groups that seem to have a handle on where the jobs are and what is needed to actually get those jobs and to keep them. I am sure the Member is aware of the Mennonite Central Committee project, Oppor tunities for Employment.

That program is ex tremely effective in a particula r niche of training, training for people who move into production jobs in a production environment, where you can move in at a pretty basic level and there is a career path, and the skills that are needed to get and keep those jobs are relatively teachable particularly if you work in small enough group settings.

Those kinds of programs have worked very effectively for us, but they also are programs that are limited because they are really good at getting jobs, as I said, in a production environ ment, a manufacturing environment, but that is not the bulk of our jobs. The bulk of our jobs today are in the service industries, particularly all the job entry level jobs are in retail and consumer service and telemarketing, those kinds of jobs. Most of them require some level of com puter li teracy, computer familia rization.

They certainly require punctual li teracy on the job, to be able to read an instruction set. a technical manual and to be able then to over a period of time follow that set of instructions. So there is a series of job skill sets that are quite dif ferent today. * (16 :10 ) I will give the Member an example of what we are trying to do in this whole area.

It is based, in part, on a very successful program out of Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario, where the com munity as a whole undertook the responsibil ity of trying to indicate where from the employers point of view the jobs were and the advocacy and training and employment referral organi zations worked into a coalition where people were not competing with each other to get grants to provide training.

They were working together with each other's skills and particular capacities in various kinds of job training to make sure that they got the right people for their kind of training to get into the jobs that the people they worked with were ready to hire for. Mr. Stan Struthers.

Acting Chairperson, in the Chair We are working to develop that kind of a seamless approach, where someone comes into our assistance system or is already in it and we attempt to be as accurate as we can to work with them to plan their own program, what is your shortage and what are you short of, what skilL what lifestyle issues are blocking you, is it addiction, is it need for child care, is it a trans portation issue, what are the things that are barriers for you, what are the skill shortages that are blocking you and what particula r things do you need to be successful.

We are taking that kind of a success barrier lowering approach on a person-by-person basis with the community groups that are out there. We have a whole lot of community training groups, but in the past they did not by and large work together with each other. They competed with each other for grants. everyone coming to government separately and saying: We think we can train people really wel l. Fund us to do that. Indeed, some of them are very good at what they do, but they did not work together.

Unfor tunately, nobody can provide all of the things that a particular person might need, and people come in unique packages, so it was very hard to say: Well, we will refer this person to this pro gram, and we hope that there is enough of a fit that it will work for them. But very often there was not enough of a fit. So we wasted a lot of training dolla rs because, when you go to a parti cula r program, you can only get what they have to offer. If there is not a job at the end of that pipeline, we have wasted your time, and we have wasted our dol lars.

So we are trying to move away from that approach into a much less competitive approach among the community agencies, but with a goal of competitive employment for those who are working through that kind of network as op posed to a cookie cutter kind of program.

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3637 I think I also want to just add that the previous government started the idea of a job centre right in our employment office on Rorie Street, and we thought that was a good idea, but we thought it had to be strengthened and that it had to be lin ked, because simply pushing people out to temporary jobs might get them another week or two weeks' or three weeks' income, but it probably does not get them a secure path so that we do not see them again.

So, while the idea of having people oriented to work before they get on assistance is a really sound idea, you have got to be sure that they are, in fact, being oriented to real work so that you are not going to see them again in six weeks or two months or three weeks. We have added some staff resources from the Department of Education and Training. It is another piece of evidence of the colla boration between the two departments, and they, in tum, will be working with the community groups' coalitions around training. The community groups have made link ages with employers.

So I think that you can see that, if you have got the people who are doing the training actual ly knowing where the jobs are, and they are doing training that the employers have said that is what we really need, and we are linked in our work with that group, you can see that we think there are more chances for success. It is not that we did not have successes. We did. But we want to have more, and we want to provide people with more, with higher odds that they will get what they need the first time through and that we will not see them again. Mr. Cummings: Yes, I appreciate the answer.

I think the end goal is one that most people in relation to this responsibility would undoubtedly share. The path that we take there might vary, and I notice that the Minister put a fair bit of emphasis on community organizations working co-operatively. I appreciate that and the fact that they need to have some link age. I would suggest it needs to be more than a theoretical lin kage. There needs to be a strong link age to assisting people to achieve a known job opportunity.

When the Minister ref ers to the Mennonite Opportunities for Empl oyment pro gram, and there are several others out there that are very well respected, I wonder if he is also open to private agencies working in this field. Has he been or will he be open to contractual arrangements with privately run training and employment-finding organizations? Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, the Member probably knows that through places lik e Taking Charge!, and I will think of another one, another operation that contracts some of its training. This is over in the Department of Education as opposed to in this department.

There is qu ite significant reliance on private sector trainers. We purchase courses of a variety of kinds, computer courses, life skills. In fact, Taking Charge!, I would say that the largest single expenditure item in their budget is the purchasing of service from third parties. I think there is a role for those kinds of accredited training programs. I think the same concern that we have about the non-profit sector is true in the private sector. That is: Is the training credentialed? Is it qual ity training? Do people at the end of it actually have something?

I think the Member would know that the answer is mixed. There are some training opportunities out there that are pretty lousy in terms of actual results. We try to identify those through our evaluation programs and not go down the road again.

There are other private training organi zations, I think of Anokiiwin, for example, that have developed a very, very strong capacity particularly with First Nations and Aboriginal people who have a very good track record of training in some specific areas, particularly in that case around technical issues of computer li teracy and then much more advanced network support and so forth. So I think the answer to his question, the short answer is, yes, we use the private sector and have no hesitation in doing so, but we also have concerns for accountabil ity and quality which go across private and non-profit. Mr.

Cummings: Well, I would relate this to item 9.2.(

c) Buildi ng Independence, as I read the Employment and Income Assistance participants to enter and remain in the workforce provides lin ks to training and employment opportunities and all of the things that are associated with that, child care and so on. In the overall thrust of the

3638 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 6, 2000 Department, this is one aspect, one rather-it is not insigni ficant, but it is smaller in terms of total dollars. I wo�ld lik e to .know if this department, as a whole, � Ith the vanous sectors that we are going to be gomg through, if the Minister has looked at this and asked the Department or asked himself are. �e putting enough emphasis on that qualit; trammg? If we have dolla rs that we can save in one area, do we move them into that area in order to make that workf orce more qualified and more willing to move?

In some cases, if you are below par with your skills then moving is not a real good option either, because you might even find yourself in a more expensive location just to provide the basic necessities of life. So this retraining and retraining into areas where there are known opportunities is a key to survival as far as I am concerned no matter if you are on income assistance temporarily or long term or disabled. It is key in all those areas.

I do not kn.ow if I have to have a precise number, but I am mterested to know if since assuming his role the Minister has evaluated the services the Department is supplying from that angle. Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, let me use the example of the Taking Charge! program. which required an evaluation under the federal-pro vincial agreement that it was begun under. The evaluation was done by Prairie Research, and it was released I think about six, seven months ago or so.

The result of that evaluation was a pretty substantial refocussing of Taking Charge!, certainly a downsizing because the federal government pulled a lot of its support, unfor tunately, but also a refocussing because the evaluation found that Taking Charge! did some things well and it did some things less well. It found, for example, that Taking Charge! did not have nearly a strong enough relationship with the income support side of its client base, and we have moved to remedy that by putting a liaison person, a clearly identified liaison person in pla ce for that.

They have been chall enged to look at the quality of some of the program offerings that they have contracted for in the past. * (1 6:20) So I think it is a very important question that the Member asks, and it is one that we certainly are paying a lot of attention to. I have also asked our research staff-the Member was asking yesterday about what was being done in re search.

I have asked-a relatively small project but asked that they identify more quantitative hard-outcome measures with appropriate follow up over a reasonable length of time, so that we know that people not only got work but we know that either they did or did not stay in it for six months, nine months a year. They moved on to something else. So those are the kinds of things that we are doing, and in my view those are kind of routine expectations that we ought to have of ourselves and of any program that we are funding, because at the end of the day most of us who get into this business want to do effective work.

The only way to find out is to do some evaluation and then to say, okay, how can we do it better? So that is what we try to do. Mr. Cummings: I hope the Minister does not think I am working backwards here, but I am staying on the same page. I see the three-maybe I am dyslexic, but the question follows that if you are putting emphasis on training and im proving people's opportunity to return to the workforce, and at the same time there has been a drop in the demand on the employable side. I wonder what, if any. changes have been made in the Program Services

section for any investi gations of fraud or other things that occur? I am referring to subsection 9.2.(a), I guess it is under Program Services, where one of the activities is program analysis, investigative sup port and overpayment recovery. I do not intend to spend a lot of time on this, but it does require I think some analysis if there has been any im pact on this side or any planned changes on this side as well. Mr. Sale: Mr. Acting Chairperson, if I could just preface my answer with what we have been saying to our community as well as to our staff.

We expect a system of support to be run with respect on the one side and accountabili ty on the other side. We have used those two kinds of concepts. We expect mutual respect. We expect cl ients to behave reasonably, and we expect our workers to behave with respect. We also expect accountabil ity that people will be forthright, that people will put their best foot forward in terms

July 6, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3639 of their own efforts, and that we will do the same. Essentially, no one that I know of wants to be on social assistance, so both the worker and the clie nt agree that they want to have the most independence that they can have. If we are a fully disabled person, that is an independence in terms of their ability to manage their own care, maybe that is the right goal. For someone who is less disabled, it may be partial employment or sheltered employment.

Perhaps somebody who is very disabled can still find a way, with our help and their efforts, to find the kind of training that will make them competitively employed. All we will need to worry about is the direct cost of their disability that they cannot manage with their employment earning, all the way up the scale to people who touch our system briefly and, through effective work, find their way into a longer-term success for themselves and their families. Specifically. we have increased our verification staff by three in this year's Esti mates.

One focussing on Housing, more from the perspective of slum landlords abusing our sys tem by continuing to claim rent for people whose rent is paid directly and they are either no longer there, or maybe the house is not even any lon ger there in some cases, so we want to tighten that up. I also want to say that in the kind of system that we think is most effective, your strongest staff are doing your intake work, because they are the staff with the most experience. They know the program and they have had experience with people.

They have some pretty good senses about whether there is someone who is being less than forthright in what they are asking for. On the other hand, they also have the sense to know when somebody is working out of a disability and really is not able to put their own case forward very effectively. I have had some marvellous examples of both of those kinds of skills. So we are trying to focus a lot of effort on training and supporting our intake staff to be very, very competent people.

One of the things we have done to help that is rather than have our verification staff sitting in a backroom somewhere, we have people working at the front end with our intake people so that we do the job right the first time with an awful lot of what was found in the 1988-89 evaluation that was done by Ron Hike! that I have referred to in response to questions in the House a couple of times, that was probably seen as abuse in the broad sense was actually depart mental error, because our people made mistakes. I mean, it is a huge system and mistakes get made.

So in a case review of I think it was 300- and-something cases, he found about 30-35 where there was some problem of overpayment, but when they did the analysis of those 35 in detail, did an audit and they did interviews, very exhaustive-anybody who knows Ron Hike! knows that he teases a bone pretty effectively. What they found was only two cases where there was clie nt dishonesty. The remaining cases were errors and absolutely unintentional on the part of both the worker and the clie nt. They were not er rors of malice, they were just errors of oversight.

So we think that by strengthening the intake side and by putting some of our verification support staff at that end everybody wi11 be better off because we will not make mistakes, we will not be claiming overpayments back from people that were needlessly put in a situation where they

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-57b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 57b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b2af62082f73ed857ca9f4dfa732a6d09e44f6ff

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