Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, APRIL 23, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 50

April 23, l 974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. !-fR. SPF.AKER: Order please! 'l'ape No. 1238 NM ._ 1 I would like to welcome to the zallerl.es today twenty-two junior Knight11· of Columhus from Harbour Grace with their councillors Peter Moriarity, Michael Foley, Jer~me Jordon and Peter Foley. On behalf of al 1 honourable members I extend to you a cordial welcome here today and trust that your visit is most interesting. MR. F.

AYLW~RD: I would like to rise on a point of personal privilege and the point of privilege concerns an editorial in "The Evening Teleiram" dated April 16 in reference to remarks made by me in the House of Assembly earlier in the previous week and the remarks I have made, Mr. Speaker'- At' the time I was presenting a petition on behalf of the residents of Little Harbour East •,dth respect to a request from them to have a road from their community to the Trans Canada upgraded and paved.

At that time I made reference to the plight of the people of the coromunity and I said as follows and I quote from an extract fro.m Hansard dated April 9, 1974, tape 1137. Referring ;to the residents in particular the fishermen I said, _ "Then." . (these people) "have to cope with the perils of the sea and here recently, problems presented by the tRnkers that transport the oil iri and out of Placentia Bay to that refinery. Mr.

Speaker, while I am on this topic, I sincerely trust that the Tanker Route Committee will soon find it possible to table their report because it is really ridiculous to think that these tankers are going in and out of the bay and that there is only now a committee studying it and that the committee itself has not yet reported. I am told by some of these fishermen that one of these tankers, and particularly that large tanker that anchored off, I think it was, Fair llaven..'' (I meant Bar Haven) "occupied one of the best fishing grounds in Placentia Bay. They have indicated that particularly the 3923 "

.. April :!J, 1974 Tape No, 1238 NM - 2 fishermen from Southern Harbour have already experienced obstruction in pursuinr, the fishing, "This is a very, very important matter and I sincerely trust that this committee will report and report promptly on this': What I was of course requestinp: was that the committee on the tanker route that hAd been appointed, I said.table the report. What I meant of course was, Mr. Speaker, that they would submit their report to the government because at that Cime I had ascertained that the coamittee itself had not in fact reported. My position, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to that tanker route·issue was made abundantly clear both to the Minister of Fis~eries, to the Premier, to each member of the Cabinet and to every member of the caucus. In fact, I am not going to go into detail on this, Mr.

Speaker, but just to have the record complete and then I will refer to "The Evening Telegram" l wi11 just give you the date of some letters which I haye written respecting this matter~_The first one was on April 2, 1973 when I wrote to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and at that time I was bringing the sarie point to mind for his consideration and that was that these fishermen livine in these particular areas, who were resettled in these CODl!!IUnities,had in my opinion not obtained the services and the consideration from government that they deserve-and .if there were any talk of building a new town (and there was at that particular time) that the residents of. these two communities, particularly the fishennen,would be ensured that adequate municipal services would be provided for them,and schools and that for their children,beforc the government embarked upon trying to ascertain or locate a new area for a new community to surround the worker• who work at the plant.

On May 14, 1973, I wrote the Minister of -Fisheries again and I brought to his attention a telephone conversation I had with him on May 8 when, at the request of the Chairman o.r President of SOFA at the tine.a meeting of the fishermen of Placentia . Bay was 3924

April 23, 1974 Tape No. 1238 N~ - 3 convened on<l 1 attended that mccti.n~ and I pointrd out to the min:I s te r in the cor n,Apondc,nce that 1 was shocked at the little con-· sidcrntion th~thnd in fact been riven to the effect that these tanl:ers on the efforts of fishermen to trv tc- continue to make a l:lving in Placent:IR Ray. This is a very, very lengthy letter and it outlines in detail, ~Ir. Speaker, my position. That was elated ~fay 14, 1973.

In this letter I suggested to the minister that I felt that this was a very, very important matter and not alone SOFA or c1ny other committee but the government itself should see that this whole matter be investigated. While I do not take credit for it, :f.t was subsequent ,to my_ submission that this Tanker Route Committee was appointed and on the same date I wrote - I realize the Leader of the Opposition is probably getting a bit fidgety on this, this is an important matter and I - MR.

ROBERTS: On a point of order, Sir, I do not begrudge the honourable gentleman's raising a point of privilege but I would make two comments: First of all, Sir, I would raise the question of timliness. This editoral he tells us appeared in the eveninf paper on April 16. The House met on the 18th, 19th, and today is the third day we have met since then.

I can appreciate the rentleman may have been involved as counsel in a court case, but secondly, Sir, he has been going on now for ten minutes and Your Honour has time and time again quite properly ruled that we must come to a - you know, I do not begrudge him for a moment his chance to lay out'his case but Sir, referring to corrcnpond~nce. which he had with members of the ministry a year passed it is hard to ·see how that is relevant and I wonder if the gen'tleman could bring it to a point. Also I w·ould ask the ruling on the timing of this question, Sir.

Really this is the third day this House has met since the editorial to which the honourable member refers as published in the newspaper, MR. AYLWARD: If 1 ma)•, Mr. Speaker, before you rule on that point: This editorial was dated April 16; The House o~ Assembly as. he sug,::ested met 011 the 18th and 19th and for the reasons which he 3925 t.·

April 23, 1974 Tape No. 1238 NM - 4 sugr,estcd, it w.?s impossible for r1e to be in the House at the time. The first opoortunity I had was on Friday. When I arrived here on Frilby, a~ain through no fault of my own, the proceedings of the House were at a sta r, e where I could not bring the ~atter up and this is the first ooportunity. Secondly, I certainly do not want to trespass upon the time of the House and I do not want to get into any lengthy detail, I just wanted to refer briefly to the correspondence but I will follow any direction that Your Honour will feel inclined to make. The only point I would say, Mr.

Speaker, this is an important mauer : -concerning the lives of the fishermen of Placentia Bay. · _As _ a member who is mostly concerned and who represent these fishermen, I would like to have on the public record where I stand and where I have stood on this, contrary to what the editorial in "The Evening Telegram" says and _I will come to that in a moment as quickly as I am directed by you. MR. ROBERTS: You Honour, we are quite willing to give leave if that need be. I mean the.honourat>le member - MR. AYLWARD : Perhaps,Your Honour,! could have leave. MR.

ROBERTS: The rules of the House,with all respect,do not make any reference to people - MR. AYLWARD: If the Leader of the Opposition would be kind enough to give me leave,I would appreciate it, MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, I said that we would be _delighted to grant leave but really it is not a point of really just to differ with a comment in an editorial. A point of privilep,e would be if the editorial misquotes or calls some vile name or something. MR. AYLWARD: Perhaps I could ask leave, . Mr. Speaker. The Leader of . the Opposition has consented to give leave. ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

The Cha:fr is reasonably satisfied that this is really the first opportunity, two reasons stated by the honourable member that he made after raising hie point. I do think he was wandering 3926

April 23, 1974 Tape No. 12 '38 an,' tnl:.J 111; r:ior0 t1.1~c than pcrhnn,; was neccsi;ary in r<.>.t tin[! to his point of privll0.i '.<~ 30,J Ro at this noint r ,,.•ill ask the m,rrlwro; of the l!ouc;c- and the Leaclcr of the Op1Josition if they will rrant lecivc• for the honourable ner.1hcr to continue. Ap:reed, :J.\• ,\YL'.•:l,t D: __ "r. Speaker, I will certainly make it as brief as J'C'ISRihle hut I do want to, as I said before, make my position clear and perhaps the Leader of the Opposition has wondered what my position :fs vis-a-vis the 11Teleirarn', what the ''Telegram"·has said. AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible, 5 MR AYLWARl?_:_ I will come to that in a second, On May 14, Mr.

Speaker, as! mentioned, I wrote in 1973, I wrote the honourable the Minister of Fisheries and suggested to him that I thought that this matter was too big a thing and outside the main private organizatlon to be investiBating and I felt some action should be taken by government:. · As I said I do not claim anv credit for the commi'ttee but I would point out that it was · subsequent to my submission to the government that this Tanker Route Committee was constituted, On May 14 I also wrote the.Premier a lengthy letter enclosing a copy of my letter to the Minister of Fisheries, I received a letter from the Minister of Fisheries on May 21, 3927

April 23, l<l74 Tane 1239 (Afte~oon) PK - 1 · indicating that this committee was appointed, I "1-1rote him a~ain· on 'fav 24, renuest1 np, a copy of the terms of reference of this commi t:tee 1-ecau!'le I ~,a!; very, very concerned about it. As I h,we said before• I ",as concerned about two matters: it was the ~eneral conditions under whfch these fishermen and the neonle in these communities Jive. Also, of cours~, the affect that these type of roads would have on their efforts to try and nrocure their livinp, from fishing. In addition, Hr.

Speaker, on the same date I wrote every member of the ministry, enclosinr, a copy of my letter to the Premier and to the Minister of Fisheries. I received a reply from the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Manpower and the Minister of Mines and Energy. I requested that the matter be given urgent consideration. • I was very, very concerned about it and subsequently again wrote every member of the caucus and sent them copies of my correspondence. llhen I vas advised that indeed a c0t11111ittee had been appointed, and Dr.

Templeman was the Chairman of the committee, I wrote the Ch11irman of the committee and requested hf.m if he would be kind enough to convene public hearings in the fishing communities in my district. I asked him at that time to have public hearings in the A~ea of Placentia, in St. Brides, in Long Harbour• Southe .rn Harbour and Arnold's Cove. I was advi.sed that the Chairman of the c.ommittee, for reason11 best known to himself and the members of the committee,felt otherwise. I wrote several letters to the Minister of Fisheries and to the Chaiman of this committee, again ur~ing him.

A~ain, I know that _this is the decision for this man to make in his committee. I was a bit disappointed but, Mr. Speaker, I have ample documentations here to support this. Now I was subsequently - when the COl'llllittees did not report, I as discretely and as I felt I should,tried to suggest whenever possible that this co111111ittee would report. I felt it was one of the most important assignments that were evP-r given ,my commf. ttee in Newfoundland. I certainly did not want to haraAs them but at the same time I "'anted them to report.

When I spoke 1.n this House of A11sembly on Ariril 9, and I spoke of the plight of the fishermen · in Little Harbour F.ast, and I- askr.d the ' · 3928

Anr:f.l 23, l.974 Tane 1239 (Afternoon) - PK - 2 committer to report, I to the beRt of my know]edre, I ~new at that time and I f1Ub1it·auently confirmed thnt the committ,;e had not then r..-norted it. Now thE' •·rveninr. Trh•r.ram'' on Anril 16, referrinit to my remarks :In thr. llousc of AsRembly, in an F.d1toriAl, headccl ''Tankers Or Fi Rl1crm~n •· rP.Rds ,'ls fol 1 ovR: "Jt i 1:1 un to the provincial ~overnmcnt to decide on the type and level of protection to be given the fishermen .of Placentia Bay in their day-to-day struggle for fishing space.

Faced with Ruperior weigh~ and speed of oil tankers they have no choice but to give way and watch their fishing grounds being occupied by huge tankers and their powerful wave-making tugs. " • "Unfortunately for the fishermen they have no allies for the government have not indicated whether it is their friend or foe. Early last year it looked as if the government were going to be on the side of the fishernien. It ap1>ointed a spec:f.al cormnittee to study the tanker route in the bay and to make recommendations on how the tankers and fishermen could survive in the same vaters.

But that was "last year and the fishermen are still waiting to hear the results of this committee'R studies. "Last week a government backbencher, MHA Fintan Aylward,asked the government to table the coDUT1ittee's report because the .tanker pperation is disrupting the fisheries in the bay and something needs to be done, Mr. Aylward obvi .ously knows that the ~overnment are aittinr, on the report, which has been in their . hands for more than one month." AN HON. MF.MRF.R: Inaudihle, HR.

AYLloTARD: "Perhaps he Rhould be asking why it is taking so bng to release the report to the House, the fishermen and the public?'' Now, Mr. Speaker, the point I _am making is; at that particular time the comnittee had not i~ fact made its report to the government, The ooint of privilege is; that in my submission to the House of Assembly on April 9, I ur~ed the conunittee to file its report, 3929 .....

Anril l.C:I, 1°7'4 Tane 1239 (Afternoon) PK - 3. The "Evcninr, TelE'p,ram'' says that the co11UT1ittee had reported that I • k.ne,,, thev had nnorted &nd what 1 11hould be doing was urging the ,.overnment to ml\ke nublic the reoort," The ooint of priviler,P. is, ~!r, ~neat-er, that what I said was that 1 ~~ac; a~1rin~ the Cf'.'!!ff!li t tP.e to rPnort. When l spoke here the co111111ittee had not reoorted. 1"1.e COl'!l!Tlittee reported subsequently. I now under­ stand that the renort is in the hand~ of the government. nut at the time when I spoke here, this report waR not made.

So, I feel, Mr, Speaker, this is certainly a gross misrenresentation of the statement that I made here because what I was asking for was that the committee ~rould report,and at that time it had not reported. I understand from the minister,speaking with him today,that it reported some iour or five days after I made that submission in the House. I would like - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. AYI.WAPD: No, no, I do not want any snide remarks from the Leader of the Opposition, I take this matter to be of a serious nature, 1 would like my position to be made public.

I am not looking for anyfhing other than letting the peonle I represent understand where I stood on this 11tatter. HR. RORER.TS: If I may say a word to the point of privilege. I think the Editor of the "Evening Telegram" should be had before the Bar of this House and arraigned somewhat because he made a statement whieh apparently is callously inaccurate. 11 That this report of the c0111111ittee headed by Dr. Templeman was in the hands of the minister or the ministry generally two or three weeks before the Member for Placentia East spoke." This is a terrible thing, Sir.

The privileges of this HouRe are deeply affected and I think the Editor should be dragged before the Bar, physically if need be, S:1 r; and if the Editor cannot do this, I think we should go back to the old custom of hanging, drawing and quartering, I do not know if that would be serious enough, Sir, for this gross breach of our i,r:1.vileges. I submit, Sir, with all respect to the honourable gentleman,he has not 1114de a breach of the privilege of the House or even of his own. 3930

J\nril 19, 1974 Tape 1239 (Afternoon) PJi'. - 4 At beAt, it is a difference n! op1n1on hetween him and the Editor of the "Tele~ram'', I am quite nreoared to accept the honourable ~entleman' 11 word l)Ver thl!t to the F.clitor of the "Teler.ram". I have no doubt there 1-ut I do not l·ncn,, Phy the Pouse ha!'I heen out to twenty minute!I of liRten­ inr, to the honour111'l~ ,r.entlem11n read his correspondence, as interestin~ as that may he to some, 1'fR.

AYLHARD: Mr. ~neal:er, to thAt particular point made by the Leader of the Opposition, The only point I am making is this, Mr, Speaker, I am not concerned about the government - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR, AYLWARD: - at this point. What I am concerned about is the submisRion I made to the House of Asnembly respecting the fishermen in Placentia • Bay. That was in error. I stood not on a point of privilege on behalf of the government, I stood on a point of privilege with respect to reports of what I said in the House, which was in error.

That may be of no interest at all to the Leader of the Opposition but it concerns me. 1'1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! We have gone for considerable time with the point of privilege raised by the honourable member. 1 feel that since he made no rec011111endation or motion· for any action to be taken, -it was a matter of clarifying a point made earlier and we Rhould probably let the matter drop al that. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS MR. SPEAKER: The Bon. Minister of E~ucation, HON, G. R. O'l"I'ENHEIMER (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Thank you. Mr.

Speaker. 1 · wish t.o remind members of the Legislature and indeed the general public that the school board elections throughout the province will be held tomorrow. This, of course, is not the firat time that school board members have been elected in many areas. There have been elections going on for some time, informal, but nonetheless on a valid basis. But now, of course, the legislation requires that at least one-third be elected and for the first time that will be operative tomorrow. I would like ·to point out,in cnse there js anv confusionAthe 3931

A"Pril 23, 1974 Taue 1239 (Afternoon) PK - 5 eli~ibilitv rer,ulations with resuect to votinr,: A person must be nineteen vears of age or older,obviously; a Canadi~n citizen or a Rriti9h sub_ject nnd have children either attendin~ the school in the area nr 11•.res in an ar<>.a in which there is a schoC\l to which his children "10uld ~o, if in fact he or she had school- ar,e children, 1 should point out as well, 6ecause 1 think there is some confusion in this,th~t hP.inp in arrears in nayment of school taxes or assessments •' is not a bar to ·.voting in a school board election. - I repeat that; that whether a person be in arrears or not in school taxes or school assessments this does not in any ~-ay affect his right to vote.

I would 'l)oint out as well in certain areas, certain school boards where voting cards were to be mailed out, this has been interferred with becau~e of the mail strike. In those areas and indeed in any areas, if ­ a person is inadvertently left off the school board voting list, a person may still vote by going to the appropriate place and either being ~om in or making a declaratory affirmation. Finally I would urge as many people as possible throughout the province to exercise their franchise in the school board elections. Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if there b~ anyone who would wish to co!!ll!lent. · I would also like to make a statement on behalf of the Minister of Social Services. I am pleased to announce an increase in foster home· 3932

Apr.il 21, 1974, Tare 1240 (Afternoon) RH - l rates with effect from April 1. The increase will apply as follows: Children up to six yenrR of R~e, the increase wil] he from fifty four doll nri:i to s_ixtv-two dollRrs per month: For children fron six to tw<>Jvc yPars of age thP. increase wUl be from sixty-two to seventy­ two ,lo1lnrs ri<'r nnnth · For chi Jdren fror, twelve tci sixteen years of nre thr incrra~<' ~ill be fron seventy dollnrs to eiRhty dollnrs per month; For ch11dr£!n over sixteen yes.rs of a,-e the increase will be from seventy-six doll.are to eight-eight dollars per month.

In addition to these increases, the depRrtment will also pay a special clothinp, allowance of seventy-five dollars a year for children from five to twelve and one hundred dollars a year for childr~n over twelve. Now it should be noted that this special ·clothing allowance is over and above and distinct from money pro­ vided for clothing and regular foster home rates.

I also wish to announce an increase in the rates for. children living with re]ativea who presently receive social assistance at thirty-five dollars a month per child, Effective April 1, past, these children will be assisted under the Child Welfare Allowance Programme.as follows: Children up to six, forty dollars per month; from six to twelve, fifty dollars per month; Children over twelve sixty dollars a month.

It will be of interest to note that these increases will apply to over 2,000 ~oster children and the total cost will be approxi~ately $245,000 during the fiscal year, cost­ shareable under the Canada Assistance Plan. rt should also be noted that the new family allowances in­ creases which came into effect on January land they are paid by the Government of Canada,apply at the rate, of course, of twenty dollars per month per child, Government hopes that these increases will make it easier financially for people to care for foster children. 1 hav~ copies here for requests and to be tabled and for the opposition. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourabl~ member for Bell Island, 3933 ... ,

April 23, 1974. Tape 1240 (Afternoon) RH - 2 ~- S. NE~!'!..:. Hr. Speaker, I am rather glad that the minister and the povernrnent took the eentle hint that I ~ave them a couple of weeks a~o. I think one of the firl'lt cluties that the Minister h11d as acting Minister of Social Services .,~as to S?et me some information concernin~ the foster ho"e rates. ! i~a~ine when the minister and his staff reviewed the rates that they came to the conclusion that they were too low, The rates are still too low, Sir, in my opinion, The government has not r,one far enough. It is a step in the right direction.

The rates are still low, Sir, compared to what they are in othe_r provinces of Canada and compared -to what is needed to look after these children. Mr. Speaker. As far as I am concerned, Sir, there is no more dedicated people in Nevfd'Undland than the parents who run these foster homes, Sometimes they have to dig down in their own pockets to take out a few dollars to look after these children. Now it was not quite clear what the minister said about the family allowance.

My under­ standin~ is that the family allowance is held in trust in the Department of Social Services on behalf of the foster children and on special occasions like birthdays and things like that, Christman and Easter, soae of the l!IOoey is taken to buy gifts for the children MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, because I think this should be clarified. The honourable member for Bell Island is really making a debate on a ministerial statement and he is out of order.

I refer to Beauchesne, page 84, Clause 91, "When a minister makes a statement on government policy or ministerial administration, either under routine proceedings between two orders of the day or ~­shortly before the adjournment of the House, it is now firmly established that the Leader of the Opposition or the Chiefs of recognized groups are entitled to ask explanations and make a few remarks, but no debate is then allowed under any Standing Order." .

Now, the honourable the me~ber for Bell Island is not the Leader of the Opposition, the Chief of any recor,nized groupA, We have been allowin~ statements to be mnde on behalf of the opposition, ~rief ones, 3934

Apr.il 23, 1974. Tape 1240 (Afternoon) . RH - 3 but he is enter1 .n~ into, Your Honour. a dehate and no debate is allowed and I think this is acce!'ted, I think it is r,ettinJ;! out of hand, That is why T. a~ risjnr, on n point of order. 'f-!R, RnBrRT~: -· -··---- ·-- tf 1 may, Your llonour, 1 quite arree that the gentleman fro111 St •. John'~ East is rip.ht in sayin~ there is no deb11te allowed and that :Is a '!lllttcr of oninf.rin, on the facts of nny riven B1tuation, whether or not there- Vit!! a riehnte. I do not think my colleapue w~.s entcrin~ into a debate. The gentletnan from St. John's East differs.

Your Honour will come to whatever conclusion Your Honour fe~ls is warranted on what has been said back and forth. The other point I think is not quite as clear, The practice in Ottawa is not as Beauchesne,and Beauchesne is, Your Honour, is aware, but a reference should the practice not be clear. Our Standing Orders say t~at where our practice or our rules are silent, our first recourse is to our rules 1 the second recourse is to our practice and precedents, the third recourse is to Ottawa's rules and Ottawa's practice and then Beauchesne follows on.

Beauchesne was done some considerahle time ago, About twenty years ago 1 I would thin~ the fourth edition of Beauchesne was written . The practice since then has chan~ed considerably and in Ottawa now, the Chief of the Party or the Chief of the recognized group speaks or a spokesman for the group. 1 submit that is our· practice here. It should be our practice here and my colleague from Bell Island was not speaking on anything except the matter of making a few remarks by way of response to a ministerial statement.

In so doing he was speaking for those of us in the opposition and occupying the same place and exercising the same privileges and enjoying the same rights , I am sorry, exercising the same rights and enjoying the same privileges as if 1 had spoken as Leader of the Opposition. I think that is the point that should be established. The other point as to whether or not he was entering a debate, I sub~it that he was not but that is a matter for Your Honour to judge on the facts of what has been said back and forth. 3935

April 23, 1974.

Tape 1240 (Afternoon) RH - 4 MR, CROSBIE: On a point of order. if he wnnt to make this submission, that there is no lonr. established practice in this House that anyone other than the Leaner of the Opposition speak in response to ministerial statements or leaders of ~roupst The member for Rell Island may be the leader of a J:rouu but in the Liberal Party, I do not know, He is not the Leader of t~e Opposition, As a matter of fact, in the ye;rr 1970-71, a fierce battle t.1as four,ht here for the Leader of the Opposition or for leaders of recognized groups to be allowed to comment at all on the ministerial statements.

It was then made very clear,when that right was finally established,that one could only ask questions. So there is no practice of long standing in this House, (1) that the Leader of the Opposition even be allowed to say a wot:d·• That was not the practice • till 1970 or 1971.

(2) It was clearly then not to practice for anyorie ·other than he or the leader of a recognized group to be allowed to say a work in response to ministerial statements, There is no practice in this House,and the rule in Beauchesne is the one that has always been applied here. MR. ROBF.RTS: Mr. Speaker, if I could make a brief reference to that and I am quite f.amiiiar · with the events of 1970 and 1971 but the practice since Your Honour sat in the Chair,and this is the third session with Your Honour, the fourth but the third in this general Assembly.

I think has been quite clear and I submit it is the right practicP., I dlld not say there was a practice of long standing in this Rouse nor should I have said that because .that would not be accurate. The practice had begun, started in 1970-71, has gone on since then. I think it is a point worth ruling. Your Honour may wish to rule now. Your Honour may wish to consider the matter and research i_t further.

I think it is a point well worth ruling upon ~ecause we do not speak by matter of leave, Either we speak by right as establish~d in the practice of the !Iouse or we prefer, Sir, not , to speak at all in this House but to speak outside. We do not speak on this mntter by leave. 3936

-~- April 21, 1974. Tape 1240 (~fternoon) Rll - 5 '°m. !;PF.Al~f-'R: Well, flfncr I have occunied this position, there has ---- -- ·-. - - hecn SCl1"~ leC"wny rivcm wi.th re~ards to members of the opposition rcplyinr, to 1:1J nist crhl statements. P.owever, on this particular occasion I frcl th:it the honour11l,le ner.ihcr for Ecll Tsland was l~;1din11 to so-::C"11l111t. of. a dehnt<' on this pnrticular statcr,ent and I arn sure that if he hng anv q11e-stions he woulcl like to have clarified, then rnnyhe now or c!urinr, thP question period he could p,et the answers from the honourable Minister of Education.

I suggest that as he continues that he confine his remarks to questions of clarification. MR. NEARY: As a matter of fact when I was so rudely interrupted, Sir, by the honourable member for St.

John's East, I was about to put a questipn to the acting Minister of Social Services and ask him if I he meant that now the twenty dollar family allowance is going to be used to offset the cost of maintaining these children in the foster homes or would it still be held in tr.ust in the Department of Social Services as had been the custom in the past and used to buy the children special clothes or school books or give them a present at Easter or at Christman time or on their birthday?

I got the impression from the minister and I do not know, maybe I am wrong, that the money was going to be applied towards the cost of maintaining the child in the foster home. However, Sir, it is a step in the right direction and as the minister indicated, fifty per cent of the cost is being paid by the Government of Canada, So in actual fact the cost of the Province is going to be around $115,000 or $120,000 and I hope, 8ir, that the foster home rates will be reviewed periodically from now on, Would the minister care to clarify that family allowance thing? MR.

SPEAKER: Does the minister care to clarify that now or during the question period? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, I can do it now and dispose of it. 3937 • I , .

Tape 1241 (Afternoon) PK - 1 The system whereby family all01,,ance was held in trust for the use o[ the foster .....,'1,ild, in snectal cases and in s-prcial. needs, has not in fact chanf(ed, nor do I think that it should. !-fO'l'I(lNS: Hn".'-1. J, r.. llOUSSFAT' ('AT'TT~Tf'P_ OF HAN?nPF,'!? MID nmUSTl?IAL RFLATIONS): I J?ive notice that I w:Ul on tol'lorrot-J ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act ~~snPct:ln~ The l'.arher11 and flairdressers Shon Clos:l.nr Act." Answers to Questions for which notice has been given. Oral J2uestions: MR. S. A. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, the Hon.

Premier is like a jack-in-the- box again today. He could not stay in his seat any longer than - MR. SPFAKER: Order, please! • MR.~ARY: -three or four minutes. Order, please! MR. SPFAY.ER_: ~. NF.ARY: Sir, I have a numher of questions to put to the Premier and the Premier is not in his seat. Would the honourable House Leader indicate whether the Hon. Premier is con.inp.; back or has he srent all of the time be is going to spend in the House this afternoon? RON_:_J_~. I-'. ?-fARSHAI,L (~INISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): Inaudible. MR. NFARY: Well, Sir, I will put a question.

While I am waiting .to see -f.f the Premier is coming back to his seat, I will put a question to the Minister of Educat1.on. Would the Minister of Education tell u!'I wh11t i.s p.oing on out in Stephenville with a substantial number of instructors being la1d off or fired or their services terminated, at the uop.radinv, school in Stephenville? Just what b happening? Just what is going on out there in Stephenville? ~. SPF.JoKER: The Hon. !-'inister of F:ducation, MR • OTIEtllfP.U'EP. : Mr.

Sneaker, at Ste~henville there.is a federal nrogra111111e, a federal Manpower pror,ramme, HTSD, Basic Traininp For Skills Development, to which each year the federal government makes available a certain amount of funds. For the next academic year or for the next year, the Federal Department of Manpower is making lees funds available for that nrogromme than it had orcvioualy, This wHl in all probability require Mme of thE' instructors in that area, in thllt basi~ training for 3938

lmril 23 • 1974 Tape 1241 (Afternoon) PK - 2 okills development ar.en, that there t-1111 b~ no studP.nts, you know, for them to teach hecause there will he le11s nTsn stud~nts theTe, becauflle thf.!rE" iR less money under the Federal Manno"1er pro~ramme. !leinP' less mon.-y 11nd lcs11 studentfl there will not he a need for the same number nf te11chP.rs.

Any teachers whose services a-re no lonr.er -required, indeed whose ~ervicP.s cannot be utilized hecauRe there will be les~ Atudents, with leAs federal money available, will he given the fir11t option on any other vacancies "-"ithin the vocation11l school system, The-re t-rill be vacancies occurring in different .a-reas and they will he given,obviously.fi-rst choice in th.ose a-reas. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the Ministe-r of F~~cation indicate to th~ House just how d-rastic this reduction in Federal Manpower ,Allowance is going to be? Is it going to be a twenty per cent reduction?

A fifty per cent reduction? How. ~uch is it goinP, tobe? And if it is going to affect the other vocational schools and the College of Fisheries and the Technology College? Will it affect the programmes that are bei·ng carried on in these schools! "1R ~ OTrENHF.IMER: Mr. Rpeaker. it will probably have some affect in other areas were BTSD programmes are on as well.

With respect to the actual amount lesR that the Federal Department of Manpower 1 making available under this progra111111e - I wish to be totally accurate because here I am giving a figure - I wish to be accurate anyway _ but a figure · of another government.and vhat I would do therefore is take it as notice so ·that I can cbeck .• ~My memory may not be correct in this) and give the actual amount or percentage tomorrow. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary: Vould the minister indicate tl,en if it will be necessary t.o run night courses in the school with this cutbacki' I do not know how serious the cutback 1.s going to be but. obviously, there will be a reduction in the number of students in all of the schools. Will it be necessary now to run these night course_s here at the College of Trades and in the other vocational schools that the minister had planned? 3939 I •

Anril 73, 1974 Tape 17.41 (Afternoon) PK - l MR. OTTF.NP.EI'ff:P: Mr. ~peaker, the reduction in students that we are sneakin~ about now is in the BTSD area, not in - MR. NEARY: What is that? MR. OTIE!Jl-lEIMER: Basic Training for Skills Development, MR. NE.AP.Y: Inaudihle. !-'R. O'l'Tf.!-!l!f.J"fl>: It i R l'I. Federal ~anpot-1er proFramme whereby students c0111e in for a period usually nolonrer than one year. It can vary in time for a few months to a year, dependinj!; upon their progress. This is a federal programme whereby - actually what it is, it is an upgrading courses under the Federal Manpower plan.

The idea behind it is; after people ·have completed certain level of I.Jl)grading they may then go on and take training in a particular tr.ad~. Now i~ this area, let us SAY, upgrading programmes administered by and financed by the Federal Department of Manpower, a certa:! .n amount of le Rs funds are going to be available next year thanwere available last year. This will mean less students obviously and a certain number of less teachers.

This,I do not envision that this is going to affect the trade courses in any way nor do I think it will materially affect the need for what we call an extended day and that ia using these facilities during longer periods, because the bi~ problem there was never this upgradinJ? but was t-7ith the shops, the workshops. and the areas in which the trade instruction is ~iven . MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, another supplementary question, - Does the minister mean then that there will be cutbacks only at Stephenville, Carhonear and Bell Island, because these are the only places where they have adult upgrading centres, as far as I know? Will it be in these three schools? If so, would the minister indicate why this cutback 1:• :Is bei nr, imt>lemcntP.d at the present time? Does it mean that the need now is not as r,reat AR it was or is it just an economic measures?

Could the minister indicate why it is being done -at this ~articular time? r. ay,pred.ate the fact that the mirlister cleared up that m&tter of trades training hecauRe :It does not involve, hut what about apprenticeship trainin~? Will there be a cutback in the aDnrenticeship training programme? Would the minister indicate to the House the answers to 3940

Ar,ril 23, 1974 Tape . 1241 {Afternoon) P1C - 4 A0111e of these ~uestione? MR, OTTENHF.1~1ETt: Mr. Speaker, I do not envision any effect on apnrenticeahip or trades pro~ramme here, In answer to the honourable p,entleman I s quest.ion as to wh:v the cutback. Well I cimnot sJ)eak for the Federal neT1artment of Mannower, it ie their monev, it is their pro,.ramrne. Thev use our facilities, purchase placcs,and they do th1s in every nrovince. They purchase so many places for so many students in this u~gradin~ pro~ramme, But now they have determined that there will be a cut of a certa:f.n percentage in that programme.

I perfer not to give the exact percentage until I am sure that I am totally accurate. But it ie a decision upon which the government have been in touch.with the Federal Department of Manpower, pointing out that we do not agree with it and we do not think it is an opportune time to require these cutbacks in the upgrading pror,ramme,but to date that is their policy. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. S~eaker, a supplementary question. Is the DJinieter saying then that the Government of Canada have given no reason for this cutback? Because I asked the minister and he satd, "Re did not know why." That seems to be most unusual.

Did not the ~vernment of Canada give.a reason? ls it an econoiaic measure? Is it because the need is not there? Could the minister indicate if there is a need there? This matter is quite serious, Mr. Speaker, and I know I am asking a few questions on it but I think it is important enough for the minister to make a ministerial statement, MR. OTTENHEJMER: I would presume that the federal government rerson, ..-. as I understand it, is to economize, is to put more stringent limit on the amount of money made available.

It is my opinion and indeed the government's opinion that this is not a wise move and that the upgrading programme should not be affected in this w~y and should continue and that there should not be any withdrawal or there should not be any cutback in the upgrading programme. It is our opinion that it should continue without any cutback, 3941

Tape 1241 {Afternoon) PK - 5 ~. NF.ARY: Mr. f:neaker, the minister still has not indicatec:l to 111e -.or to the Rouse what fa the reason behind this. C.ould the minieter . ,I find out ~hat the reason is? It is ~uite a serious matter. The only reason the federal ~ovemment have ~iven is that thev ~.,hh moTe control Uf'O.n their funds under the Jlfanpower Trainin~ Pro~ra1!11!!e - therefore have stated tt at a certain alJl(Junt only will be available next year. That amount iR somewhat less than was available lant year. They have done this for what ln their opionion,are economic r•••~• In this government'• opinion, it is not a good move • . . , . . . ... . ., • 3942

April 23, 1974 Tape. no. 1242 Page 1 - MW _MR. NEARY: Well then would the minister indicate if his department of if the province will pick up the slack? I mean the minister has admitted that there is still a desperate need for upgrading. Has the minister made any representation to his colleagues in cabinet to pick up the slack, to keep this programme going, which is so badly needed? Are we just going to let it die? What is the situation on that?

MR, OTTENHEIMEN.: Mr, Speaker, obviously the Provincial Government cannot continue to develop the federal upgrading programme, which is an extremely expensive one and under which there are manpower allowances paid. The allowances paid to the federal manpower upgrading studen~s are extremely generous and in some cases $4,000, '$5,000 and $5,000 plus per year.

The federally financed and sponsored upgrading programmes could not be continued by the province, Certainly, we do bo~e to continue and to develop where possible basic adult education programmes which hopefully serve the same purpose. _MR, NEARY: Mr, Speaker, I hope the minister will clear up tbie matter by making a ministerial statement in the next day or two. It is a very serious matter, Sir. I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance, Would the minister indicate to the House if be bu met with the officers of the St.

John's Fire Fighters' Association, Local 1075, IAFF, and what the results of these meetings are and when these people can expect an answer from the minis~er? _MR. CROSBIE: Mr, Speaker, since I saw the gentlelll8D mentioned by the honourable member opposite here a few minutes ago, I assume that be already knows the answer to the question. The men be refers to are offi~era of the Firemen's Union. I cannot remember the exact name now.

Tliey dropped in to see me this morning, The govern~t have cer;ainly not given '111?-J uawer and it is not likely that there will be any answer for aometiae yet in the matter of such moment, The matter _upon which they dropped in to see me was to ask whether the government 3943

April 23, 1974 Tape no, 1242 Page would agree to open up the two year wage and collective bargaining agreement that had been entered into with them last year,( I think that agreement expires at the end of March, 1975.) to open up on tqe l[l&tter of salaries. Obviously, there has been no.decision by the go1.'cr11m(,nl nor .._.ould there likely be for several weeks at least yet, MR, NEARY: Mr, Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice, 2 Would the Minister of Justice indicate if there are any new developments on the province taking over the federal fire station down here at Pleasantville?

What will become of the employees in that fire station? Have there been any new developmentsin the last couple of weeks? MB., HICKMAN: No new developments, Mr, Speaker, MR. ,NEARY: Does the minister have any idea when the transfer will take place? Will it be within the next month, two months, three aonths, six months? These men down there are on tender hooks, They want to know the answet ·s, MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the men down there are no more on tender hooks than is the Provincial Government, Regrettably the Government of Canada, in that particular field, does not seem to believe in consultation.

They went straight to the men, met with them and indicated that they were thinking of a change and then came to see my deputy minister and asked him what the views of government would be, which is a rather unusual way to approach it, He made it very clear that we were not very happy.nor were we,with the proposal, The officials went back to report to their senior people within the department and we have not heard anything since, not a word.

There has been absolutely no consultation other · than a very abrupt meeting without notice to tell us what they had in mind, They did indicate (I have to givethiB second hand) to the deputy minister that they had told the men in the Pepperrell Fire Stat .ion that if ·and when there was a change, their position would be protected, They did not see fit to teil us, HR, NEARY: Hr. Speaker, a question for the Hon, Premier. I could not think of a more appropriate day to ask it, Sir,than today, we have so t!l3J1Y representatives from Harbour Grace here. Would the 3944

April 23, 1974 Tape no. 1242 Page 3 Premier indicate if he has had any representation from Ocean Harvesters, a plant which the Hon. Premier is familiar with in Harbour Crace, to get their production up in that plant? Has there been any representation? Does the government intend _ to provide any assistance to Ocean Harvesters to increase their production in that plant and to make it a year-round operation? _!fR. MOORES: Which question would the honourable member like me to answer Mr. Speaker? MR, NEARY: Answer whichever one he wants. MR. MOORES: Well there are different answers to them all.

The fact is- that we have had represtntation as all the plants on the Northeast Coast ~re of concern to the government., we· want to do something to assist all and not any individual plant. This is the objective of the government. MR, NEARY: Would the Premier indicate if anything will be done this year to help to increase the production at Ocean Harveaters Fish Plant there in Barbour Grace? MR. MOORES: As far as the government is concerned, Mr. Speaker, there is virtually nothing that the government can do to increase the ~ production at Harbour Grace, unless the Hon.

Member for Bell Island wants to go fishing in the deep water as opposed to the House of Assembly. _HR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we run up against a road block all the time. Sir, I am quite sincere, MR, SPEAKER: Order please: MR. NEARY: Mr. ·Speaker, I wonder if the Premier would indicate to the Bouse if it is the intention of the government to table tbe feaaibility reports that have been done on the _Lower Cburch~ll• especially with regard to transmitting power to the Island of __ , Newfoundland? Will these report• be tabled in the House?

They were referred to in the Minister of -Finance'• •peech and the Premer referred to them several times publicly outside the House, We would like -to kuow if they are going to be tabled. 3945 .. -,,,

April 23, 1974 Tape no, 1242 Page 4 MR, IDORES: They have been tabled fairly gen~rally now. Mr. Speaker, to those who want the technical information that is in them, We have not considered tabling them in the House but it is certainly something that we can give consideration to, }1R. NEARY: ~1r. Speaker, I wonder if the Hon, Premier could indicate to the House if there are any new developments on the proposed new fish plant for Burgeo? MR. MOORES: With all due respect, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Industrial Development has met with the Hon.

Don Jamieson on this matter several times and I think the thing is proceeding,but with the action of Ottawa, unfortunately, slowly. MR~ NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations could tell us what is happening . over at the Health Science Complex? Has the wildcat or illegal strike been straightened out yet? Is it all over? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, ,' MR. NEARY: Good. I am glad to bear it, CAPT. WINSOR: Hr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Hon, Minister of Transportatio"n, when he gets back to his seat.

I am sorry to have to bring the honourable minister back, Can the Minister of Transportation and Communications confirm that the subsidy for air travel to Change Island has been discontinued? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I was just about to talk to my deputy minister about the same matter. If the honourable gentleman ~­ would delay that question somewhat. I would be· able to confirm or deny it. MR. SPEAKER: Before we continue with the question period, it has just been brought to my attention ~hat we have in the galleries. from the Local Improvement District of Gambo, Dark Cove. Middle Brook. the mayor. Mr.

Harold Faul.and two councillors. I would certainly like to welcome these sentlemen to the gallerieo today. 3946

April 23, 1974 Tape no. 1242 Page 5 HR, THOMS: Hr. Speak.er, I would like to direct a queation to the Minister of Tourism, I wonder could the minister inform this honourable House. if applications for moose and caribou licences are available Jf they are not available, when does he expect ·to have them available? 1-m. DOYLE: Mr. Speaket, as I mentioned in the statement I made on April 5, the applications will be available from Hay 4 to June 14. MR. THOMS: I take it that they are available now. HR. DOYLE: No. I just said that they would be available from May·4. to June 14 • • MR. MARTIN: to the Hon. Hr. Speaker, I have a question I wish to direct 3947 . ' .

April 23, 1974 Tape 1243 IB-1 the Minister of Justice. I wonder if he could tell the House whe~ we might expect to have the report of the Labrador Royal Commission? HO,~. T .A. HICKMAN (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): The report, Mr, Speaker, is quite voluminous. It is either five or six volumes. Ar.: TIONOVRABLE ME"IBER. ls it going to be censured?' MR. lilCK'·!A:~: No, it will not be censured, The ~overnment felt it would be very appropriate that with the tabling of the report there be attached to it a

summary of the six volumes. I understand that the officials who have been assigned this task are getting close to completion of their

summary. The very minute that

summary is completed the six volumes in totality will be tabled in this House. • ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I meant to ask - I will ask the Premier, h~ is as good as any, in a good mood today - what about this reportnow to _"a .'special committee on the tanker route to Placentia Bay. When is it going to be released? Is it going to be ~abled? Perhaps the Minister of Fisheries would care to answer? HR. H, COLLINS (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Yes, Mr. Speaker, we received the report on April 15,which was last Monday, It is now under study by the government.

Just as soon as that study is completed it will be tabled; pretty soon. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could tell us if there arc going to be any pages taken out of it. MR, COLLINS: Na! MR. NEARY: No. On motion of the hon, the Minister of Justice,a bill, "An Act Respecting A Provincial Court," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy,11 bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Crown Land (Mines and Quarries) Act," read a first time, ordared read a second time on tomorrow.

On 110tion of the hon. the Minister of Finance,a bill, "An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act," read a first time, 3948

April 23, 1974 Tape 1243 18-2 ordered read a second .time on tomorrow, On motion of the hon. the Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Newfot.mdland Municipal Financing Corporation Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. HON, W.W.

MA.J!,!illALI. ~MINJ.Sn:R WITHOUT POR'l'FOLlO) : Before calling the remainin~ orders of business, ?-Ir, Speaker, I think it ,night be bencfic:f.al to inform the l:louse in keeping with the government's continuing policy of co-operation with the opposition and full information to everyone. the opposition. the press and the general public, the general plan in the next'few weeks is we will be meeting afternoons and nights on Mondays. Tuesdays and Thursdays and we will be meeting in the mornings on Friday and in the afternoons.

In • other words, we will have five or six hours. good hours of legislative deliberations, I do not think anyone can object to having to work five or six hours a day. So, after that. Mr. Speaker, I move that we move the order to Committee of Supply, On motion that the House resolve itself into Colllaittee of Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair, COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order= Shall 401-01 carried? MR. NEARY: No1 Mr. Chairmani HON, J.C. CROSBIE (~UNISTER OF FINANCE): Mr. Chairman, this is a very important item in the estimates, There were several questions asked by honourable gentlemen opposite. Mr.

Speaker. In the eleven hours of discussion,of which about n1nc·have been on this item, there ~ have been two or three questions asked by honourable gentlemen opposite, The rest of their comments of coµrse have been comments and an attempt to have some kind of a Budget Speech on the estimates, never before done in this or any other Rouse. As long as they want to do it, of course, 1 am ready, willing and I hope able to acco1111110date them. Now, I have answers to the two or three questions they have asked.

One questions asked by the Leader of the Opposition was about the tabling of the published accounts of Crown Agencies. Now, 3949

April 23, 1974 Tape 124 3 IB-3 the Auditor General's report and the t>ublic accounts were tabled a. num~er of weeks a~o. The published accounts for certain Crown Agencies are still in the hands of the Auditor General. However, I was told Fri:lay ti at ti1,~ v should be avziilable to us for printing not later t:· .~•1 Fric:~y, i\.nril . 26. There are ten statements i~ the hands of the Aud1tnr Gsner.11 thut he has not finished with, Public Libraries Bc.ard, Fisi1erfrs l.0an l.ioard and the Kewfoundland and Labrador llousinr, Corporation and so on. So, as soon as they are received the statements will be printed.

Pardon? MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Well, I sup~ose one could get Xerox copies. The printing will not take long once the - presumably the other statements are already printed. We are just waiting for these that have not come in yet. Anyway we will do everything we can to accommodate. There are four agencies that we have not had their statements audited or there is some problem in connection with them or their outside accountants. Well, we will go ahead with the ones that are ready at the end of the week.

The other four will have to follow in due course as they are presented, It is Newfoundland Fisheries Development Authority, Board of Comndssions of Public Utilities, Marystown Shipyard and Newfoundland Steel Company Limited, Now, Newfoundland Steel Company Limited for example is wound up and there is a delay because it will be their final statement, The other three may be either the outside auditors or the summaries.

As soon as they come into hand, th.ey will be tabled. ,f There is another question asked by the Leader of Oppos1tion as to the bond issues that we had last year, what were the discounts paid on the bond issues that we had last year, There were discounts paid on tvo issues. Series G6, Deutschemark,.$100 million, $100 million Deutscheaark issue. The coupon is six and a half per cent. It wa sold at ninety nine and one half. The discount of one half of one per cent amounted to Deutschemark 500,000 or Canadian $176,597.50. 3950

. , April 23, 197lt Tape 121,3 IB-4 The second iHue that had a discount was aeries 4in, u.s.; $40 1nillion. Coupon was eight and o-half per cent. It was eold at ninety-nine and one.-half. Discount of one-half of one per cent amounted to U.S., $200,000 and about the same in Canadian. 'total discounts for the last financial year is therefore $376;597.50. AN HO:~OURJ\ULl': ?-lE'°'BER: Inaudible. · . ---~--- }IR. CROSBIE: Oh no, these were sold on the par all right • • 3951

April 23; 1974. Tape 1244 (Afternoon) RH - l 111ere is A (]Uestion asked by the member for Hennitage on the Northern nllowance, the allowanre pa:ld :fn Lahrador, That was repularized and irmrovcd an<l exnanclcd unon 1::>st year. That allowance is $1,200 to a P('rson ~-•'io is ~arri<'~ and works with the ~overnment or teaches or what- ever 1 n Labrn,lor or 1 f the c-riployee is sinr,le then t~c allowance is $1'"ll'I. Tf there :irP twn Mnrricd nersons, both of whom work for. the ~overnMent or hot:, of \-:horn are tcnchers or both, anyway, paid out of government funds, they receive $600 each, This is not an anomaly.

There is nothing anomalous about it. The maximun allowance is $1,200 for married pers~ns and therefore if they both work with the government they r,et $600 each or they both are p~id from the public treasury and • the total is $\200 . • HR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, I have to get my shot away early today because unlike the Minister of Finance, Sir, I have to travel with the peasants. The minister will be travelling to Grand Falls tomorrow morning by government executive airer.aft, no doubt, to appear on an open-line pror,rarnme to defend his tax increases.

I have to go out this afternoon, Sir, so I may as well get my shot away early. A.'1 HO'IOURABLE ?-fEMBER: He will take the honourable member with him. HR. NEARY: Now, Sir, on Thursday and Friday in this honourable House, we threw out to the Minister of Finance, Mr. Chai1:111an, with what I consider to be a couple of positive, constructive suggestions. The minister in his reply to the suggestions and the comments that were made from this honourable side of the House, Sir, decided to treat the w,atter rather lir,htly, !!lake a joke out of it, rather fr:l.volous about the whole thing.

He thought that some of the suggestions that we had made were childhh. Well, Sir, I want to tell the Minister of Finance that the s_ugrestions anti the recommendation3 and the ideas that were put forth fr(ml thi& honourable side of the House were made in 11:ood faith, were made in the interest of the welfare of the people of this Province. Tf the minister, Sir, wants to treat these matters lightly, well then that is his preroi:-:ative, Mr. Chairmnn. We were quite sincere when we r~commended to the minister, for inst~nce, that he reverse his decision · 3952 1'.-

Ariril 23, 1!'174. Tape 1244 (Afternoon) RI! - 2 to increase the retail sales tax by one per cent and use the extra $9 million th11t the minister will r.ct from Ottawa this year in 11dditfonal equalization Rr~nts, T ~fr~t Pd~ was ,m~xpected1 th~ minfster did not exoect to ~ct that, Sir, when tht> ndnfatcr \.'AS clrawin~ U!> hi.1:i' hudrt>t, Mr. Chalrl":m, for this yf'11r, th,1t '-:Cl ri1.11ion \1,HI ,,ot t,,hm into oc:c-ount, Th~ r•l4tfr1ateR werf'! 1ust about complete ,.,hen Ottawn dropped a fllum rhht ilown in the ministf'r's lnp of S9 nillion, as a result of the tax imposed on western oil. MR.

CROSBIE: On a point of order, Mr, Chairman, ts the rule of relevancy and the rule against needless and unnecessary repetition going to be enforced or notf Because this point and this argument~ve heen advanced now by the member for Bell Island, I would say, on at least three occasions and dealt with by me,each time in coDD11ittee,on at least three occasions. This is • a perversion of the whole process of the estimates.

The presentation of the estimates ·to the House are ,for questions to be asked, information to be sought about the eatimates and the spendinp, progrannue of the government. 1here is a budget speech on which general matters to do with the budget and govemment ~ol~cy generally can be spoken to by all members of the lJouae, non-confidence motions moved and replyed to by the Minister of Finance.

What is going on now ia not a mini, it is certainly not mini but a maxi budget speech on the first item, the minister's salary in the Department of Finance. ~ow, on the first itm in the department,the administration of the department generally can be discussed but this constant review of the position generally on the budget is not a review of the administration of the Department of Finance ·at all. It is a review of all activities of government in which spending is involved and it is a complete misuse of this Committee of Supply.

Therefore.I would like to have a ruling on whether this is going to be perm:f.tted to continue and whether repetition after repetition and needless repetition after needless repetit'ion of points and arguments are going to be permitted in the emit tee. Because, Mr. Chairman, there is a certain time allotted in· the rules~of seventy­ five hours for estimates.which is plenty of time for every estimate to be covered in detail if the opposition wish to. What we have seen now 3953 ,.

April 23, 1974. Tape 1244 (Afternoon) RH - 3 is eleven hours so far of an attempt of theirs to i~nore the whole pro~er procedure in thr co~mitte~ and to ~o with the sa"e ar1uments, over and over acain attemotin~ to debate the whole budget, On thr:t noint of or<ler, ~•r. Chairman, In My opinion, Sir. and th(> n.,ini<'•n of m~!'!bers of this sicle of the House, that was not a vali~ .,o!~t of order. Sir, it was not. The minister, 6bviously, is supersensiti"JE< toc!av.

We have seventy-five hours in which to debate the estil!lates, Sir, and we can use, we on this side of the House or on the government benches for that matter, can use that seventy-five hours whatever way we see fit. If we want to spend seventy-five hours debatin~ the minister's salary and we are permitted, Mr. Chairman, accordin~ to the tradition of this House to make general comments, • to have a wide ranging debate when you get to the minister's salary, Sir, on matters affecting that depart~ent. I would suhmit, Mr.

Chairman, th~t there is no point of order and that the Minister of Finance is just trying to choke off the debate, Obviously, we are gettinr, to him, Sir. MR. CHAIR.?.f.AN (Stagg): Ar,ain, this is the same matter which was brought up on Friday, when the Leader of the Opposition was speAking, and the same ruling has to be made at this time, that this particular Chaiman does not have the poweir,of recall or the power to remember whether or not honourable members are indeed beinr, that repetitious.

So, if that point of order is to be raised and sustained,it would necessitate adjournment practically as often as honourable members wish to hrinr, it up.

So, conse_quently, I consider the point is well taken and I c!o believe that I have heard the hDnourable member mention these points before durin~ the debate,but the actual times or the manner in which · he approached nt that time escapes me for the moment, Honourable members are 1.1skcd to be relevant at all times, The particular head we which .we arc now, the min:fster's salary, the Minister of finance, lhe dehate h.a/l hcen widP-ranp.ing on it and indeed today docs not Reem to be any d1fferent from any other, Honourable memhers have .the seventy-five hour limit,W:lthin thr. bounds of. rcl~vancy and the powers of the Chairman to recall, the dchate 3954 '

Aflril 21, ]'174, Tnrc 1244 (Aft~rnoon) RH - ,4 wtl l con t1.nue. At the present time J thJ nk the honourable 111ember is in order.. ~. NF.ARV: Thnnk you very much, Mr. Chairmanl As a matter of fact, what I was sc1y l.nr, Your Jlonour, was really new. If the Minister of Finance hnd been followin~ what I was sayinr.:, this was something new Sir. Over the weel:e>n<l T ha<l an opportunity to think about this, that the minister treat,=i evcrythin~ rather lir,htly in this honourable House.

What I am suggesting to the Minister of Finance, Sir, is that the recommendations, the suggestions and the ideas that have been put forth in this debate from this side of the House were genuinely brought forward in the interest of the welfare of the people of this Province, If the Minister of Finartce, Sir, wish to treat the sug- • gestions lightly that is his prerogative. There is nothing I can do about that, M~.

Chairman, 1: think the minister is wrong in 'treating any matters that are raised in this House in a lighter vein and poking fun at them, saying that they are childish, I think the minister is wrong, Sir, but there is not much I can do about that, Mr, Chairman. That is the minister's preroiative. I was using an illustration to bear out my P.Oint, Si~, that out of the $28.2 additional million that will come from Ottawa this year, -that the Minister of Finance could have taken $9 million and used it to offset the increase in the retail sales tax. There is no quest~on about that, Mr. Chairman.

The minister has not answered that. The minister has not given this House a valid reason why that could not have been done,because as I started to point out when l was interrupted by the Minister of Finance, Sir, 3955 .... , {,'

April 23, 1974 Tape No •. 1245 that $9 million was totally unexpected by the minister and the r,overnment because up to the time the estimates were drawn up for each department, the province did not know if NM - l they were 1oin~ to ~et one penny from Ottawa. They did not know as a matter of fact until the Minster of Justice went up a couple of weeks agothat the province stood to gain this year an unexpected amount of a~ywhere from $9 million to $12 million. The total additional 1110ney coming from Ottawa this year would be $28.2 million. The question I am asking, Mr.

Chairman, and until I get a satisfactory answer I am going to keep asking it, why did not the Minister of Finance use that $9 million'? He. is only go_ins·. to get.$10 million from the one cent increase in the sales tax, why did he not use that to offset an increase in taxes, · to hold_ ·-~· .·: ·the line on taxes or even, S~r, to reduce the tax on gasoline and heating oil in this province as they are doing i~ all the other provinces of Canada? Or does, Mr. Chairman, does the Minister o·f Finance, in be budgeting, does he expect to .have a surplus ar,ain this year as he did last year?

We are getting right back now, Mr. Chairman, to where we were in Commission of Government days, When they were thrown out of Newfoundland,after Confederation.they had a surplus of $40 million. The Minister of Finance here in this province this year, this fiscal year that just ended, 1973-74, had a surplus of $14 million, and yet he transferred it over to capital accounts, Sir, to put up buildings · or· to buy an executiv~ jet aircraft for the pleasure of the ministers,for jetting around the province. AN IION. MEMBER: A jet! !ll. NEARY: I do not know if it is a jet. What is . it calledf a turbo jet? What is it?

What kind of an aircraft? lt is a beach craft of some kind. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, it was not the one that the Wripht brothers came over in. They have got everything in it, Mr. Chairman, but stewar .de·saes witl, hot pants, and they will have • 4 r .' .• •' • ., . 3956

April 23. 1974. Tar,e NO. 1245 HM - 2 that pretty soon. With all the extravagence and the waste that is in this bud~et, Sir, I would not be a hit surprised before the year is over they will have another aircraft. You talk about streaking, if you want to see the streaking get aboard the government aircraft. so. Mr. Chairman, there is no reason, I have not heard the minister give a single reason why this could not have been done. It is most unusual, Sir, most unusual for a government to take 1110ney out of current account and transfer it over to capital account.

It 1, unheard of. ·Because, Mr, Chairman, you can borrow money on capital account and you can pay it off over a period of ten, fifteen, twenty years and the only reason the mini~ter gave for transferring that $14 million over was that it would cut down the province's . borrowing by $14 million. I say . - .. to that. Mr. Chairman, so what? Our direct and indirect debt at the present _ti1ne is about $1.400,000,000 and the minister is worried about tacking another $14 ~illion onto it, which is the normal way for doing things in capital account anyway.

Sir. · He did not do it, typical, typical Toryi~m, Sir, typi~alJ You use a surplus in your current account: you carry it over to next year to try ~nd offset an inc~ease in·.taxes or to reduce taxes if poBBible, Now, Sir, sometime ago the Minister of Finance in this honourable House told us that the group insurance plan that was implemented recently for the civil service was done by calling public tenders and assured this honourable House that no member on the government benches was an agent for the company that vae involved in gett _ing that contract.

I do not remember, ~ir • whether the Minister of Finance told us if the contract was awarded to the loweat tender or not but I do know, Mr. Chairman, that Mutual Lif~ Assurance Company of Canada was the successful tenderer, I am going to ask the minister to tell us,when he stands in his place to reply to my few remarks as no doubt he will, if Mutual Life were the loweat tenderera. 3957 ,, ~.

April 23, 1974 Tape No. 1245 NM Before the minister tells us that, Sir - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, before the honourable member carries on with that ·, if there be any order in this committee at all 3 or if we are to follow parliamentary practice or precedence a~ all, there is an item in my estimat,s, in the detailed estimates, for group insurance - 408-04. It is quite clear from Beauchesne, as I quoted from it last week that where there iF a specific item in the estimates it is not proper to bring i "t up on the first vote in the department.

Ther~fore, I would suggest to - . the honourable gentle11an that he wd,t un.til the right occasion when he shall be enlightened once more on the group life insurance sch11111e whi.ch this government brought to the civil servants and government employees of the province and which his administration refused to bring forward. Mil. NEARY: On a point of order. Mr. Chairman, the minister obviously did not give me a chance to finish ·• the point I started to make, Sir, I have no intention of dealing with t~at particular . item one way or another right now.

I just want to, when the minister rises to speak, I just want a few general remarks from the minister. If he had left me alone he would have seen. he knows what I am driving at, Mr •. Chairman, he.obviously knows what I am driving at. It is going to be embarrassing and he does not want to answer it. But, Sir, I think I am in order, I am not going to debate the amount of money under this vote, I am not going to ask him how it is spent or anything else, I will deal with ' that matter when we get to it, b~t I do have a ·right, Sir, to make a few general remarks. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Now, the honourable gentleman has been making general remarks for quite some time now and I think he i  well into his seventh or eighth hour. I think hia gen~ral remarks are turning into specific remarks at this time and I must agree with the Minister of Finance that it does appear as if he were dealing with a head of expenditure that could be better dealt with at the time allotted to it.which would be 408-04. 3958

·I April 23, 1974 Tape No. 1245 HK - 4 ~ !!....li_T~.\~Y: Mr. Chd rm.in, in view of the fact that I may have to leave · this afternoon, Sir, and the Department of Finance estimates are likely to be finished before I go, I though t I would raise this matter,seeing I have the information in front of me Sir, l will tell you what, I will not even refer to the group insurance, Sir, I will just merely point out to the honourable com- mittee ., for the benefit of members of the committee, that Hewfoundland ~nd Labrador life insurance agents ~icenced as of O~tober 2, 1973, Sir, listed Harold A. Collins, St.

John's, Mutual Life agent; Anthony J. Murphy, St, John's, Mutual Life agent. · Now, Sir, I am not saying there was any conflict of interest in this matter but I merely want to point out, Mr, Chairman, you know in my research I come across some very strange things, They start me thin~ing. The Minister of Finance told us in the honourable House already, Sir, that nobody on the goverlllllent benches was associated with this company • . MR, CROSBIE: Mr.

Chai'rman, this is so disgusting and insidious~ _:_~t·-­ ~ just get this point i1R111ediately straight, Mr, Chairman, I was asked a question and I answered that question and said that there is no agent of record ,.for , Mutual Life on t.the group life policy and no one, no agent, making one cent or getting one cent on the group life policy of Mutual Life, .Wheth~r Harold Collins or Anthony -~rphy or Joe Smith or Billy Nenry or anyone in this country is an agent of Mutual Life, it has no connection with this policy whatsoever.

There is no agent of record, There is no agent receiving any commi~sion or any oney on the policy and this •tt~mpt to drag in Mr. Collins and Mr. Murphy, the members for Gander··and for St, John's Centre, who happen to repr~sent Mutual Life when they were out in public life is just disgusting. MR, KEARY: Mr. Chairman, what k~nd of a point of order is that? Sir, that is just another . vicious personal attack on me for raising a matter in this honourable House that I think should ~e raised, Sir, I think it should and I do not care how tender the .Minister of Finance

April 23, 1974 Tape No. 1245 NM - 5. i s, how sensit ive he is, these matte r s hllve to be brouP.:ht out into t~e ope n and I am mer el y askin~ MR. CROSBIE: What is that? MR. NEARY:. They a re m~tters of - ~R. CP.OSBIE: Watch t;he allegations. MR , NEARY: There is no alleea tion. I am just merely pointing out to the committee that· two members on the governme nt • 3960

A1>ril 23, 1974,., Tape 1246 (Afternoon) PlC - 1 side of the House, two ministers are listed under the p,overnm~nt'• own registry, Rir, HstP.d - this list cRme from the r.overnment office. Two cabinet minister& are re,istered as ar,ents of Mutual Life. That is the cam~any ~ho ~ot the ~roup insurance cover1ng the civil servants of this province, Sir, There may be nothing at all in the ~orld vrong with it, not a thing. I am n(lt sayinp: there is, SiT - f,IR, CROSBIE: Now, ~r. r.hairman, I raised a point of order on this group life business •.

You are allowing it to be discussed, eo I intend to reply to this and I intend to reply when th~ honourable gentleman ,is finished, because° : 0 the rule is not ·being enforced, The ruling was that the group life insurance would be discussed, as it is suppose to be in parliamentaey.practice, down in the estimates. It is now being discu:sed and these statements made by the member despite your ruling. Th~y will have therefore to be answered - MR. NEARY: Mr. Chaim3n, I have no intention of ·dealinr, with that item. MR. CBAI'IOIAN: (STAGG): Order, please! · The honourable member lllight resume his place.

In order for these matters to be discussed in an ~rderly fashion, honourable members must attempt to observe the rulings of the Chair or othen."1se appeal them in the normal Manner. How the honourable member while apparently being very co-operative and agreeing with eve·rything the Chair aays; neverthelesR the next time he resumes his place continues to go on as he did before.

Now the honourable member, as he has told us on many occasions, is an experienced parliamentarian, and has compounded his abuse of the rules,after it has been brought to his attention . got up and continued to do so, So the point of the Hon. Minister of Finance is certainly valid. It is probably the fault of the Chair that the honourable member vas not cut short. ·so in the interest of fair play, I supl)Ose, the honourable minister will have to be given permission to reply. MR. NEARY: Mr, ChafTman, as a matter of fact, that was exactly the point that l made..

I think these matters should he brou~ht out in the open and there is no better place to do it than in Committee of thP. Whole when we are discus~ing the 111:f.nister' s Balary. I ha,•e no intention, Mr. 3961 . ' .

April 23, 1971, Tape 1246 (Aftemoon) PK - 2 Chairman, of goinr, down to that particular item. I merely want to ~oint out that these two honourable gentlemen are listed down in the Department of Provincial Affairs ae agents for Mutual Life. If the honourable gentlemen are not agents, Sir, my advice to them, Mr. Chairman. is to have their names stricken from the record. Because, Sir. we mu,t do more in this honour3hle ~ouse than to try and just pase conflict of interest bills. Sir, we l!lllst give the aopearance that there 1s no conflict of interest.

That 19 all I am sur,gesting, Sir. 1 am not suggestinR that the honourable Member for Gander did anything improper or anything wrong ~or the Minister of Social Services. AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NF.ARY: Good! 1 am glad to hear it. I am glad to hear it,the minister is not on welfare, Sir, but it is an interesting point, It • is very interesting to note that point, Mr. Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: What is the date MR. NEARY: January 18, 1974 we received it. AN HON. MEMBER: When was that dated? MR. NEARY: What date is on the list? AN BON. MEMBF.R: Yes. MR. NEARY: October 2, 1973. AN HOH.

MEMBER.: What point is the honourable member trying to make? . MR, RI:ARY: The point that I am making, Mr. Chairt11an1 is that there are two honourable ~entlemen sitting on the government benches, ministers of the Crown, who are listed in the regi~try office as agents for Mutual Life As~urance Company of Canada. Okay, that is a fact. of Finance cannot deny that, That is a fact. Now the Minister MR. CR.OSBIF.: So what! ~-- MR. REARY: That is like the facts we published in the newspaper on the $407,000 queetion. Hit. CHAIP.A!f: (S'_l'ACC) l Order, please!

Again, the honourable member I understand is going to be with us for a •hort time this afternoon. In the short time thAt he has been here, has been interrupted on A couple of points of order vh.ich have been sustained. He is now being interrupted

April 23, 1974 Tape 1246 (Afternoon) PK- 3 by the Chair. on a point of order; The honourable member is again going on certainly to anoth<!r mattP.r now which 11!1 irrelevant, the matter of - well the laRt matter to which he referred, ~o aiafo I direct him to he relevant. I presume 1 will have his usual promnt co-operation, MR, MF.ARY: There is no Chainnan, Sir, in this world that 1 would sooner co-operate with than Your Honour, Sir. I will just drop that whole matter but I think I have made my point, Mr. Chairman. I have made my point. You knol-T it would be very unfair, Mr.

Chairman, to leave the matter up in the air and leave people suspicious of the fact that the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of Social Services may have done something improper. I hope that will not happen, Your nonour, because • I do not want to be, misinterpreted nor misunderstood, I just wanted to point this out to the Minister of Finance. After all, Sir, we have been told, we have been lectured so often by the Minister of Finance about asking questions.

He says, "Ask us quest1ons, we will give you the answers." I am l)Utting a few questions to the minister now shout this situation, Sir, because 1 want to Qet the ftnswers. If I cannot refer to it, I cannot refer to it. I will just let it go, 1 will come hack to it SOUie other time, Mr, Chairman, one of the greatest shortcomings of this administration is its policy of implementing programmes that benefit only the few and not the masseA of our ~eople, Sir, expecially the Minister of Finance's fiscal policies, This administration, Mr.

Chairman, have failed to come to grips with the real problems and the real needs of the people of this province~ chiefly the spiralling cost of living, the de·sperate housing shortage and record unemployment. I sincerely believe-, Mr. Chairman, that these are the things that the minister should have dealt witJ, in his ~udget speech. Every other province of Canada, Sir, as I have said so often in the last few days, every other pro~ince of Canada is attempting to deal with the cost of livin11:, the housin~ shorta,e and unemployment,except Newfoundland. ...

Newfoundland stands alone, Mr, Chairman, stands alone as a ROvernrnent 3963

April 23, 1974 Tape 1246 (Afternoon) . PK - 4 who develops policies, not for the have-nots, StT, but for the _ haves. The minister's hurlr,et, as I said the other day, protects the rich and takes the money that is needed to carry on the public services out of the hides of the worl<ing-clat11s neonle. ~r. Chairman, the people of this province have almost given up in ~espair. ~hev are disillusioned, disenchanted, dis~runtled.

They have piven u" nnd th.Rt is why we Ree so much trouble and strife on the labour front in Newfoundland today. .. ' %y1 the firefighters.were in to the minister this morning looking to have their contract reopened, Sir. · I know, Mr.

Chairman, that legally the government could say, "No, we are no~ ~oing to reopen your contract." But 1 say, Sir, morally they are bound to consider that request because it ts•a very reasonable request in the light of what has hap?ened to the cost of living in this province in the last eighteen months, S1.r,: t~e· . : - llinister could have very easily said to the firefighters, "No, we have an agreement for a.10 years, it does not exi,ire until the end of March 1975. Ye negotiated and si~ed an agreement in good faith.

Legally ve are not bound to reopen the agreement." But in my opinion, Sir, that vould have been wrong. I think the governemnt are morally obligated to reopen the agreementi not legally, morally. Mr. Chairman, if they open that aireement the minister knows full well they are going to have to open every agreement. The t~ache~s are asking, the police are negotiating at the present time, the nurses, the wardens at the Penitentary, the Mental Hospital, non-medical employees in hospitals, civil servants; all hands have the right to ask to have their agreements reopened. 1 say that would not be such a bad thing.

Now the govemment could •ery easily take a stand off _attitude. The minister could very easily take the hard line that he has taken over the past couple of years since he has heen Minister of Finance. Re could dig his heels in . and he could sav no- and several months from now the Hon~ ~remfer will whip the cari,et right out from under his feet again, as he did before. 3964

AprJ.l 23, 1974 Tnpe 12/17 Ill-1 So, my suc~estion to the Minister of FJnance, Sir, is that he not take the h;ird line, that for once he flhow the people of this province that he does have an ounce of humanity in his blood, that he does recop,nize the fact that the cost of living has gone up well beyond the~ amount that these people received in thdr increase last year. Thn minister did give them - I must admit this, Sir - the minister did give the fire fighter.a o couple of hundred dollars extra last year as a bonus that was not included in their negotiations but not enough, Sir, not enough.

They nee<! more just to keep pace with the c:oflt of living. Even with the $200 it fell far short of the increase in the cost of liv:f .ng in this province. I do hop2 andr my advice to the minister is not to dig in his heels, not to bring on a confrontation with these people because, Mr. Chairman, if there be a confrontation, the minister shall have nobody to blar.ie but himself.

If they go out on strike and the police go out on strike and the nurses go on strike and the hospital workers go on strike, it will be the minister's fault for not sitting down in a reasonable manner, in a humanitarian way,around the bargaining table,and trying to resolve this problem because it is the number one problem in Newfoundland today, Sir, people unable to cope with the cost of living. So, Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to delay the co111111ittee. What we have seen over the past couple"of years, Sir, is just a pack of schoolboys turned loose to develop a programme of priorities.

Not only, Sir, are we· falling behind as a result of their inexperience and !heir innbility _ to cope with the every day needs of the people in this province; the situation seelllS to be worsening. In my opiflion, Sir, we have wasted over two years. The administration is now going into its thir _d year. So, I would say, Mr. Chairman, we are at least two years behind. It is a sad situation we have before us today. The situation is worseninr,. We were not at all surprised, Mr. Chairman, when this 3965 .-.., ~.

April 23. 1974 Tape 1247 particular 'Minister of Finance came into this honourable House about ten or twelve days ago and announced tax increases, The minister did not give any justification for the tax increases, Sir. When one goes through the budget, Mr. Chairman, and looks IB-2 at all the extravagance and waste in that budg•t, in this spending spree that this honourable crowd has going on in this current fiscal year, you see why the minister needs his increases in taxes, When we make positive, constructive suggestions to the minister,he gets up and makes fun of it, Sir.

He gets good reports in the newspapers and on the radio and on television. They pick up the little gems of humor that flows from the minister's hot lips.

The minister no doubt when he reads it thinks it is funny, My ~od, he pats himself on the back and says, 111 had a great day in the House today." Sir, when we make poaitive,constructive suggestions to the Minister of Finance, we make them in good faith . and we _make the in the interests of the welfare of the people of this province, I know the Minister of Finance, Sir, is getting better, much better at making speeche .s in this honourable House, He seems in the last year or so to have more confidence in himself, Well, well he should, Sir, He had the most expensive public-speaking course in the historr of Newfoundland.

It cost him $500_1 000 down at the 1969 leadership convention. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. STAGG): Order, please: I trust the honourable gentleman is not going to expand on thi~ at any length, MR, NEARY: No I am not, Hr. Speaker, The minister I think will admit himself that he had not only in Newfoundland, Sir, but in the history of the -world the most expensive public-speakuig course. It cost a half million dollars. Now, Sir, let me end up, Mr. Speaker, MR. CHAl~'IAN (MR. STAGG): Yes, I -will let the honourable member end up but not before saying a few words, 3966

April 23, 1974 Tape 1247 IB-3 The honourable member was interrupted by the Chair which sugr,ested that he was beinr, J.rrelevant. In resuming his place he sugeested that he understood that he was irrelevant and would mend his ways as it were and then proceeded to continue :In e~actly the sar.ie vein as thnt ior vihich he had heen interrupted. )!H. :,b'.AP.Y: Mr. Ch :,irn .;in, '\-:hat you c.:na do w:lth words in this honouraLlC! !louse. Sir, in my opinion the worse political mistake, }{r.

Chairman, that a political party can make is to build up peoples' hopes and expectations during a political campaign and then not honour their promises once they are comfortably installed 1n office. The brave, new world, Mr. Chairman, that they talked about has now ~een replaced by pessimism and despair. l believe, Mr • • Chairman, really,sincerely believe that the people of this province have given up and they are losing faith, Sir, that they held so dear in their traditional institutions such as the House of Assembly. They are losing faith in their leaders. That is rather unfortunate, Sir. Over the weekend, Mr.

Chairman, I tried my hand at a little poetry. I would like to wind up with a verse,with apologies to Oliver Goldsmith. I would like to wind up with a verse that I c_ompiled for the Minister of Finance and his colleagues. I am not very good at reading poetry and as a matter·of fact after I read this you will probably see I am not very good at composing poetry,although I had a go at it over the weekend. Here it is, • Sir.

Here is my ·composition: "Ill fares this Newfoundland; to hastening ills a prey, Where wealth accumulates for the few And for the masses of men and their families, Nothing but decay. 11And the ordinary people, once our country's pride, Are supposed to reap happiness from a George McLean slide." ~m. CROSBIE: Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman opposite is not the only one that can write poetry. I must say that that was not much of an effort. I will start out with my own which I just made up 3967

April 23, 1974 Tape 1247 IB-4 here on the spur of the moment. "The Liberal Party's quite upset, because Ed is. still the leader yet. The question now is; "Who'll be boss, Will Steve or Bill or maybe Ross?" Now, we will know the answer to that one, Mr. ChairmBl', next fall, whether it will be Bill or Steve or Ross or Joe or Harry or Dick or Rodr,er or Earl or whoever, I hope the honourable gentleman does not leave. I have to address myself to him for a few moments, AN HONOURABLE MEMllER: Inaudible. HR. CROSBIE: Yes, well keep one ear peeled,please. Naw, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable gentleman just said how he surveyed this province and the hope for the brave, new world had been replaced by pessimism and despair. Yes, Mr, Chairman, I dare say.that is what the gentleman has found because the people of this province are full of pessimism and despair when they look at the Liberal Party of this province and see that it is the only alternative to this government. That fills them with pessimism and despair.

When they see the kind of tactics honourable gentlemen opposite,exemplified by the member for Bell Island, use, their pessimism and fear and despair know no bowids because they are sick and tired to death of the negative approach, the sly approach, the scandalous approach taken by the honourable gentlemen opposite, exemplified by the member for Bell Island. I People are giving up. Yee, they are giving up on the Liberal Party. People are losing faith. Yes, they are losing faith. They ere losing whatever faith they had in the Liberal Party and its leaders. 1'hat is where they are losing faith. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable gentleman opposite was not surprised, he said, when I announced tax increases in the budget several weeks ago. He was not surprised, Well, I wonder was he 1urpri1ed, Mr, Chairman? He has been a member of this House since 1962~ He supported the Liberal Administration from 1962 to January 18, 1972 when he wa1 dragged,kicking and screS111ing from the House, from the cabinet chambers. They were pulled, kicking and screaming. They clung ori with . their teeth, 3968

April 23, L'J74 lH- 5 their fingernails, their toes, their handnails, their toenails, Practically dynamite had to be used to gf,t them ou.t after they lost the election in thAt October, The honour.able gentleman was here from 1962 onwards. Was he surprised in 1964 when the government raised the income tax to eighteen points? Was he sitrpdsed in 1965 when they rais~d it to twenty-one points? Was the honourable gentleman surprised in 1966 whe.n it went frotn twenty-one to twenty-four points? Was he a teeny, weeny bit surprised when they ra.ised the income tax .in 1967" to twenty-eight points1 • 396.9

-~!"ril 23, 1974 Tape No. 1248 N'f - ] . And then a~.:-.in was he surprised, ~fr. Chali:man, when in 1969 his ad1dnistration raised the income tax from twe_nty-'eight points· to thirty-three points? No, he was not surprised then. ~:by should he be surprised? Look, one, two, three, four, five years :fn a T'.) W thcv raif:cd the income tax. No wonder the gentleman was not surnrised. ~o, he was used to it. Year after year his ar.ministrat1on raising the inco~e tax on the poor people of this .province. No, he was not surprise!;! in 1964 and 1965 and 1966 and 1967 and 1969.

He was surprised in 1968 because they skipped 1968 without raisin~ it. Yes, he was surprised in 1968 but not 1964, 1965,1966, 1967 and 1969. He was not surprised then. He va~surprised in 1972 when we introduced the exemption ·on ·children's clothing in the sales tax. That was a surprise because his administration had put the tax on 'the children's clothing and_shoes and this administration took it off. Now let us see,was he surprised in connection with the (I will not file itjwith the corporation income tax? He was not surprised about that, he was delighted, · Th11.t· went up in 1967, 1968 and 1969.

Was he surprised? No, he was not surprised. He.was used to tax increases. He was a member of a tax-increasing team. tax-imposing administration, merciless in thetr - aprroach to taxes. MR. NEARY: _-·on ~ point _ o'r order ., Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: What is the point of order? - MR, NEARY: The point of order I want to make, Sir, is the minister knows full well, Mr. Chairman, that 1 was never a member _of an administration that increased taxes,but the minister himself was for the three years he mentioned • . MR, CROSBIE: ,That is not a - MR.

NEARY: I was never in my life, Sir, a member of an administration that increased taxes and the minister is misleadinp. the House, deliberately mislendinr, the House, Sir, and I ask him to retract his statement. Mn. CROSJHF:: Mr. Cha:1.n,,nn, I do not want to bother ~our Worship, I retract. l retract the statement that he was a mcmher of the 3970 , ..

April 23, 1974 Tape No. 1248 NM - 2 administration - MR, CHAIRMAN: Order please! The honourable the Member for Bell Island used an unparliamentary phrase in referring to the honoutable the Minister of Finance alle~inr that the Minister of Fin:inc:~ fr:; dcl 1.1,crately rnisleadinp. the House and I sugre>st that the honourable mcr.iber either withdraw or rephrase, preferably rephrase that co~ment. MR. N~RYJ. Mr.

Chairman, it would appear as if the minister .. __ were . deliberately misleading the House but since now the minister has admitted that he was and he has withdrawn it, Sir, so we will no-more fight about it. MR. CROSBIE: Mr, Chairman, the honourable r,entleman was not a member • of the administration. He was not a n1ember of the Cabinet. No, he was a backbencher. He sat in the party caucus. He supported - MR, NEARY: But he was in the Cabinet, MR, CROSBIE: That is irrelevant.

Just because I have got the honourable gentleman on a sore point, he was a member of the party caucus, he voted for the party in the House of Assembly. He helped to keep it in power. He supported their budget resolutions. He voted for their tax bills. He supported it down the line and never once did he make a public murmur of dissent from their tax policy. ln 1969 he was a member of the Cabinet. He crawled in on the broken backs of Wells and Crosbie who had left the Cabinet and were brutally assaulted for doing so..

Then the honourable gentleman got into the Cabinet and there he squat safely for three years and so many month~, until January 18, 1972 when he had to be pried out .with pinch~rs. Now _was, tl-,e honourable gentleman surprised in 1963, his first year in this honourable House of Assembly? He was elected in 1962, before that he was a member of the N.D.P. He ~as a raving, ranting, ferocious, flag-waving socialist. In 1963, was the honourable gentleman surprised when the sales tax we.nt to five per cent? I do not know, Perhaps he was. Then we get to 1967, was 3971

April 23, 1974 Tape No. 1248 NM - 3 he sut'l)rised in 1967 when it went to six p~r cent? Was he SU?'l)rised in 1968 when it went to seven per cent? No, Mr. Chail'lllan, he was not surpr~sed in 1967. He had been led to expect tax increases from the people he was supporting and assisting,with every fibre and bone and muscle in his body he was fighting to keep them in power. He was not surprised in 1967. Was he surprised when they put the tax down then on the children's chockey bars and their soft drinks? ·was he surprised then? No, he was not sut'l)rised then.

That was the fourth increase and the fourth down-grading and getting more revenue froin . the sales tax that he had experienced since 1962, He was not aut'l)_i-iaed. Be was taking it in his stride. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, Sir, it took the Minister of Finance now, this is hi~ third day, Mr. Chainnan 1 using these very same weak arguments 1 Sir, this is repetition of the worst sort and I ask if Your Honour intend to enforce the rule of repetition, new rule that was brought in ~y the member for St. John's Eut recently, Sir? The minister is repetitious. MR.

CHAIRt.fAN: Well coming from the honourable member,I must say that is rather an interesting point of order. Some honourable members attempt to use the rules both as shield and as a sword and in this case I suggest the honourable member direct himself to the wording of ·_ ~his par~icular rule which involves needless repetition. _ I suggest that the honourable Minister of Finance is answering arguments u was certainly requested, and it would probably never be resolved whether the repetition of the honourable Minister of Finance is neeclless or not. •··,. MR. NEA~Y: Thank you, Mr, Chairman.

As long as the same rules apply to both sides of the House, Sir, I do not mind. We enjoy the ministet. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, l do not min~ the honourable gentleaan . you know trying to get me shut up. He is .. trying to have a,e stopped. He does not want me speaking in this House, Did I·not hear that little yatter from over across the House when I rose on a point of 3972

/\pril 23, 1974 Tape No. 1248 N'-1 - 4 . order a hnlf hour apo nnd now the honourable ~entleman wants me stopped. lie does not want me speaking in this House. I am not allow('d to give an explanation. I nm not allowed to answer these char~es he has brought against me. Well what a turnabout. Now was the honourable gentlrman for Bell Island surprised in 1969 when the tax was extended to hotel and motel accmn.-nodations, to t elephone services, to telecommunications, .to repairs, to laundry and dry cleaping, even taxing. our laundry in 1969? Did the honourable gentleman from Bell Island protest?

Did he get on the open-line shows? Did he kick about how his administration were punishing the poor and only helping the,rich~ Did we henr that from the honourable gentleman in 1969? No, we did not hear that from the honourable gentlean in 1969, not a word did we hear. Now was hE' surprised whc,n it came off the children's clothing in 1972? Yes, he was surprised because his administration which he thinks was~ friend of the poor and so on put the tax on children I s cloth:f .ng so when the big bad Tories took the tax off the children's clothing he was surprised. He was. I genuinely believe the man was surprised.

Was he surprised in January of 1974 when the Tories, the big bad Tories, those big ruthless exploiters of the toiling masses, those helpers of the plutocrats and the rich and the powerful of this world, was he surprised when 'they took off the sales tax on stove and heating oil and furnace oil, the seven per cent tax that the 'honourable gentleman had put on them, that he had had a hand in raising from five per cent in 1963 to six per cent to seven per cent? He heaped them on the poor. He heaped them on the toiling masses during the ten years he was in the House before this ,administra~ion took over.

He helped impose those taxes on them, from five to six to seven, the hotels, the motels, the t~lephones, the laundry, the dry cleaning, everywhere you .can think of to tax he taxed. He . helped them tax. · He kept them in power. They did not help the rich! . No, Sir-ee-s~ ! They would not help the rich, not at all, and the list is so long. 3973 . ' .

April 23, 1974 Tape No, 1248 nrn-5, !ou kno\o/ if you had the names on a plaque it would go from there rirht unto the ceiling, who they helped and wno . thcy •did not help, John C. Doyle and the rest of them. Well we will not get into that. :fow where is my document? I will see whether there are an~ other surprises. Oh yes, there were. There were.other surprises, The gasoline tax, I forr,ot to mention the r,asoline tax, Mr, Chairman. I am sure than honourable gentlcr.1.cn on this side will not mind if I just ment:lon it. Now where is the page on the gasoline tax because that is an interesting one, Mr.

Chairman, The honourable gentleman opposite chided us, chided, actually chided, criticized us a few minutes ago for not r~ducing the r,asoline tax which • he put on, which his amdinistration put on. Now how did the gasoline tax go? Or how is it now? ~ow it is twenty-five cents per gallon. Who imposed it? Why it was imposed by the Liberal Administration. When did they put it up to twenty-five cents a gallon?

They put it up to twenty-five cents a gallon in 1969, lf I can fin<l the right par,e here I will eive the 'st~ges that it we~t throu~h as it mounted from no cents a gallon because there was no gasoline tax when they started o~t. ~en they started out in 1949 there was none; when they started out in 1962 there were. Let us see what happened to it after the honourable gentleman joined the House • .. T.he period o[ heaviest taxation in Newfoundland is the period' from the time the member for Bell Island r,ot elected in 1962 to 1972 when he was finally put out of the government.

That is the period of highest t11xation in this province and he has the gall and the au<l,a~~ty and he is even tomorrow apparently ~oinr, to Grand Falls to spread this 111endaci ty or to try to spread it among the public, that he is against taxes when he is the bigr.eRt taxer we have ever seen in our history, a tremendous taxer, a 3974

April 23, 19 74 Tape no·. 1249 Page 1 taxer without peer, a vicious tax, Sir. I cannot find the historical sequence here but by golly, I am going to on that gasoline tax. l!'IR. NEARY: (Inaudible). HR. CROSBIE: Let me see. Never mind these little mutterings from across the hall. The honourable member who is now peaking never tried to equivocate, never tried to pretend that he did not support whatever had to be done to keep the province going. He is not like the honourable gentleman opposite.

I cannot find my exact point here but I will later on in between speeches, find the gasoline tax, • After 1966, it went up from twenty cents to twenty-one cents a gallon, I forget which year. I think it was - MR. NEARY: MR. CROSlllE: JIR. NEARY: HR. CROSBIE: From twenty cents to twenty-five cents. Right, to twenty-five cents in 1968 or 1969. No, no, it was 1968, It was 1968, It does not matter, lam not trying to say I was not in the government when it was done.. I am not moaning .and whining around the province.

I am prepared to accept responsipility for it, I am not like the Member for Bell Island who is afraid to death to be associated with the thought that he ever had anything to do with taxes when he is the biggest taxer we have ever had in the province. Mr. Chairman, he is equally responsible as everybody else who was in the cabinet or anybody else who was in the caµcus. In 1969 he was in the cabinet. Now that sho•ld deal with how surprised that honourable gentlemen is. His surprise, Mr.

Chairman, in this ·budget was that the tax increase was so small, such a small one and the thing is that we have wasted hours 1~ the House discussing thi~ now on the estimates, when we should not be. · The honourable gentlemen think they have a point . that impresses the people of Newfoundll\lld, who have accepted the tax increase as being necessary and who can see we are . ' ~-

April 23, 1974 Tape no, 1249 Page 2 making a determined etfort to give them the service and to try to develop our resources and do the other things that thia province needs, No one likes a tax increase but people can see t~at it ia necessary, Now what about the "Hon, Cool-hand Stev~," who was up here a few dayo ago and was discussing economy, He said that we should,economize on this and economize on that. He was going to save us millions on his economykick but he did not mention very many things. MR. NEARY: Eight millions. MR.

CROSBIE: Eight millions, my eyeJ I was going to say some o~er part but my eye - eight millions my eyel Mr. Chairman, we heard the Hon. Member for Bell Island this afternoon but did we hear him discussing this afternoon the firemeni The delegates from the Firemen's Union came to see the Minister of Finance this morning unexpectedly - always open to aembers of the public, They had access to him and came in and asked could their two year collective agreement be opened up and would the government consider it because of the coat of living and ao o~.

This afternoon they are up here and apparently collllll\lnicating with the opposition, a most peculiar procedure,but let that pass by, The Hon. Member for Bell Island stands up this afternoon and he s~ys that every collective agreement entered into ahould be opened up. They should all get more. That is the only right thing to do, If that tight-fisted old scrouge, the Minister of ., Finance,does not give them all more, despite the fact that contracts are signed, there is something wrong with the government. Now, Mr. Chairman, the honourable gentleman aays that there is a $14 million tax incre&!le.

If we look at the budget of the year before and this year's budget, we see that salaries and vages have gone up $49 million. If the Hon. Member for Bell Island really wants to have savings so there is no need to increase taxes why does he not attack salaries apd w•ges? That is not his style. 3976

April 23, 1974 Tape no. 1249 Page 3 He does not want to aggravate anybody in the province at all, The only people he wants to aggravate are George McLean and Mr. Nutbeem. He does not want to aggravate the people who we gay salaries and wages to. He does not want to aggravate the pensioners. He does not want to aggravate the fishermen who get more, He does not want to aggravate the loggers who get more, No! He just wants to try to aggravate one or two people and wail against the tax increases. Why did not the Hon. Member for Bell Island sayf"Why did you incr~Lse ' (He should be here kicking up a fuss.

He is now on the economy kick about taxes) wages and salaries last year so it is costing $49 million more this year1 11 That should be his question, That is not his • question. He comes in this afternoon and says to open up all the collective agreements and. . ... 3977 • , . . ,.

April 23, 1974. Tape 1250 (Afternoon) KH - J. rive thel'I r.iore. ~row if that is not inconsistant. The ~eor,le of the Province are not, you see there are two schools of thour,ht, 'Mr. Chairman. One school of thought thinks the voters are ignorant, dumb, stupid, pitiable animals that you fool at every election with promises, That is one !':c~oo] of thour,ht exemplified by the member for Bell Island. There is anoth~r school of thought that thinks the electorate are peor,lc like ourselves who ~an think and reason and understand. There are two schools of thought.

I belong to the second school of thought and l believe that people of Newfoundland can think, can understand, can reason and that they know that this budget brought down a few days ago is an honest budget and that there had to be a tax increase even though they do not like it and that if we are to • provide services and develop the Province this is what we have to do. That is what I believe about them and that is what we believe about them on this side.

So the honourable gentl·eman yells "economy" in one or two areas and then sug~ests that wages and salaries should go up even higher even though they have increased some $49 million this year. He talks about a surplus. I answered all of this before, Mr_. Chair­ man but you allowed him to say it all again and as long as they keep saying it I will keep replying to it. There has not been a surplus in the budget of the Government of Newfoundland since 1949, no surplus last year, $158 million had to be borrowed, no surplus this year, $167 ~illion or whatever it is has to be borrowed, no surplus, none.

There is no surplus, n·ever a surplus, never a surplus an~ no .surplus now, never has been and never will. If, ~r. Chairman, we want to ,o out and borrow an additional $14 million this year just to avoid a tax increase, in two or three years time we vill RO out and we will probably be lucky to be able· to borrow at all.

That is what we have to avoid, That is what we have to avo:f.dl We are doinr. :ft to carry on the services snd to develop the resources :md so that wa ,,ill be ahle to borrow in the future so thnt if the honourable crowd opposite ever r,et in they will be able to go out and borrow because we have been responR1.ble, Yea, that iB why 3978

Apr:l.l 23 • 1974. Tape 1250 (Afternoon) RH - 2 we ar.e doing it, all of those reasons. The honourable r,entleman mentionerl government aircraft. There iR no r.overnT11ent 1et, Mr. ChaiI'!llan. There is not a government jet! Phen thP. honour ah] e r.entleman sa~,s povernr1ent 1et he is deli~eratelv mnklnr,: a !llis-!ltnt~f"c'nt, he is c1cl :lberately. The honour;,h] e r:entlenan knows that tlw he1Jch craft that the povernnent has is a twin- engined - 'MR. CROSBIE: MR. NF.ARY: MR. CROSBlt; MR. NF.ARY: MR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: ~!r. Chri. irm~n, 1s thRt parl i.11l'cntary? Yes, quite parliamentary, yes.

Inaudible, Is what? The statement the Minister of Finance just made, What statell\ent? That that was a deliberate mis-statement that I made, Sir, deliberate mfs~·tatement • .. Is that in order, Sir? MR, CHAIRMAN (Stagg): The honourable member's question is hypothetical. MR. NEARY: I am asking Your Honour to ask the minister to withdraw that unparliamentary statement lie just made. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I will save you the bother of wasting time on this silly little point. I will not say that the gentleman is deliberately misleading the House, no, I will not say that. I • refuse to say that.

I simply say that the honourable Aentleman from Rell Island knows that the Government of Newfoundland does not own or operate a jet aircraft. He knows that. Yet he persists in this House in calling it the govenunent jet. So 1 will leave the conn~cting points to all members here as to whether or what he is doing. He knows the government has no jet yet he says "government jet''. The government has a twin engined beach craft, turboprop I think it is, turboprop aircraft that replaced a twin en~ioe Otter aircraft that honourable gentlemen opposite had when they were in power. That is what it is. It is not a jet.

There may be a very good case and a very strong case to be ~adc for the government havin~ a jet but the government has not got a .1et. It has not had a jet since January 18, 1972. 1'he J!:Overnrnent has a small, little beach­ craft aircraft ~hat will take eight passengers and that will take 3979 ........ , .

April 7.3, 1974. Tape 1250 (Afternoon) Rll - 3 stretchers when then• iR NiP.d to. A,'l Jl(l~OURABLE MF.'nH:R: Inaudible. HR.. CROSBIE: So it is not a jet. I ~e]ieve I have the floor and I would not address nyself to this point e.xcept honourable gentlemen in discussing my salary feel that this is something,that this is somethinr, relevant and therefore must - there is no jet. The honourable gentleman who is now addressing this honourable House was not goin~ on the government aircraft to Grand Falls tomorrow for an open-line programme. Fine! Fi-Fe-Fi! Never! He is going to .

Grand Falls.if the weather permit, .to address the Grand Falls Chamber of Commerce and the Rotary Club. HR. NEARY: On the government aircraft, HR. CROS13IE : Ah! Hhy not? It is governrtent business - MR. NEARY: 'What government? HR. CROSBIE: And it has to whisk me back so I can be in the House in the afternoon - a perfectly · legitimate use of the aircraft, I submit, Mr. Chairman. In any event, it is not a jet and it is not taking me out for an open-line programme, It just so happened that my popularity is such in Central Newfoundland that they wish me to go on an open-line programme also.

When I get on that open-line programme I am going to explain how the member for Bell Island put those taxes up, I am going to y,o into that in detail on the air in Central Newfoundland. They will know who the taxers of this Province are. Th~y will hear me in Hare 'Bay. They will hear me in ~Thite Bay, They will hear me in Notre Dame Bay, They will hear me in ~pringd~le. MR, ROBERTS: They will not heed the honourable minister anywhere. MR. CROSBIE: Ah! Ah! Ah! Ho! Ho! Ho! We will see who they ar~ heedin~. We will see. AN HONOURAlll.E Mr.HBF.R: Inaudible. MR.

CRO~JHt: -- ·- I do not care, boy, if I am popular at all. AN Hn~ml'RAJILE •-W,!,fflER: Inaudible. 3980

April 2'3, 197L,, Tape 1250 (Afternoon) RH - 4 M~, CROSRTF.: Oh! I know that the Liberal J arlies out in Grand F'alls, ------- they have aJ.1 been told, ''Now, .1 am up that phone 11 ne to CJON or CJCN, phone in." You know, they will have their few little Liberal crackies out there, the few that are left, tryinr, to block the lines up. I will hand1e them, We are not worried about the little Liberal ladies. m nmmUFAllI.F. Mr:~lr.ER: Inaudible. ·-·---------- HR, CROSRIE: Now, then the honourable r.entleman mentioned Hr. Chairman, $9 million in tax equalization and $28.2 million.

To answer him I took up "me" pad and I thought can I, you kn~w, the Chairman has forgotten that the gentleman made that point before. So I look through ~y notes, F'irst note, brother Neary, this is on last Friday, psycho~ogical effect on workers in the Province; a pertinent note to reply to that. No psychological effect on opposition. Then I got the figures out to counteract the $28 million he said we got from the Government of Canada. Now the situation is, I will go into it again, Mr. Chairman, the opposition chooses to use the time of the estimates to debate these general points again and again and again.

It is not our choice that we do this. It is not our choice, i.t is the opposition's. They wish to deal with the estimates this way. Why, Mr. Cliairman, do they wish to deal with the estimates this way?

Obviously what they are hoping to do is fool around and waste as much time as they can on the estimates for fifty or sixty hours and then they will start to complain and ·say; .· "We have not got to this department yet,"or "We have not got to that department yet and look what that cruel government has done to free speech in this Province." "We have not been allowed to discuss this, that and the other." No, because they have spent their time and hour after hour after hour of malarkey on the · first vote in the Department of Finance. So we know their theory, we know their strategy.

This is the best they can come up.with. Well, so be itl When they do that we will answer. When they charge we will rebut, when they parry we will thrust. If this is the way they want it, lay on the duff! Woof! Woof! Now, he made the point, $28 million he said the other aay. Our 3981

April 23, 1974. T~ne 1250 (After.noon) RH - 5 revem1t- is up $?.H rd111on from the Government of Canada this year, true, true! Our provincial tax revenue is up $31 million and our revenue from other provincial sources is up $5 million making a total of $64 million our revenue is up. Well, Mr. Speaker, our expenditures are up $74 million net, our net expenditures up $74 million. So the increase of our expenditures has outdone the increase jn our revenue despite the small tax increase. So where is the surplus that the honourable gentle~an talks about? No surplus.

We are hoping to have a contribution to make to c·apital account from current account, from $7 million and that could be easily wiped out. Who knows what is goinr, to happen with the economy this year? No one knows. So there is no surplus. I pointed that out to • him last time. One item alone, interest~ The honourable gentleman's lively talk, he ·says;"Borrow $14 million more this year." Well, look, what is ten per cent of $14 million? Ten per cent of $14 million, I am not kno'l-m for mathematical prowess - AN FONOtrnAJILE MEMBER: One point four. ~m. CROSBIE: What? AN HONOUP..ABLE HEr-IBER: One point four. MR.

CROSBIE: One point four what? AN HONOURAELE MEMBER: Million dollars. MR. CROSBIE: Ny God! It is not? One point four million dollars. A.~ HONOURAJlLE !-!EMBER: One point four million dollars. MR. CROSHIE: Now, if we went out and took the honourable gentleman's advice this year and borrowed $14 million more. $14 million at- ten per cent interest an<l we ~ight very well, Mr. Chairman, have to borrow at ten per cent this year, The bond markets are gone whangy all tor,ether. Interest rates have ,zone up.

If we borrow an additional $14 111i}lion this year, next year we will have to have another $1.4 million at least to pay the interest alone on that $14 million, Now ie it sensible for us? We arc gone now ll!I far as we dare go in borrowing or attemptinr. to nrranr,e to borrow $167 million. The honourahle 3982

April 23, 1974. Tape 1250 (Afternoon) RH - 6 rentl r n.in su~~Psts hli thely, "Do not increase taxPs, just horrow another $14 million;" forr,ettinr. that the interest has to he paid and the principal has to be repaid. Our interest costs alone this year, Mr. Chairman, are up $11 million because of the borrowinr, we did last year. We cannot go on this way for­ ever, that is for sure! Now did he say anythin~ else? Yes, he said somethin~. There is no point gettinp, outraged about it I suppose. It is despicable. It is the worst kind of McCarthy tactic.

The honourable gentleman says,you know, it is a great revelation, Mr. Chairman, he says to this House because he hopes it will he reported in the press, he reports to the House that Mr. Harold Collins and Mr, • Anthony Murphy, the two members of the cabinet, member for St. John's Centre and the member for Gander, are recorded as agents of Mutual Life. Now there is nothing wrong with them bein3 recorded as Mutaul Life ngents. They sold insurance. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: No, the honourable ~entleman did not. Right: Ha! Ha! How right ~e is. He·. _.'did not say a word. .

He just carefully put the two things to8ether so it looked bad. Then he said, "These two men, they represent Mutual Life." They are down there as a matter of record. They are a~en _ts. Right, everybody knows that. Ank Murphy was a life. insurance salesma1' fo~ years and Harold Collins for a while and they are retaining their status as agents. Why should they not? They are licensed as agents. They want to retain the status. In two years time or in a year or three they may be back in civilian life again. So he tells the House that. Oh!

It is an interesting fact that the honourable ~entleman picked up and then he asks about a group life insurance policy that Mutual Life has gotten to cover ~he civil servants and government employees of the Province for ~roup life and health insurance, Now he does not say there is any connection, He does not say there is anythinr, wrong. He does not say that the honourable Mr. Murphy or the honourable Mr, Collins did anythinr, wro_n~. He knows 3983 ..

April 23, 1974. Tape 1250 (Aft arnoon) RH - 7 Mr. !·fun,hy or th~ hono111:1.1b le Hr. Col Hns dirl no thin~ wt:onr.. He knows what ~•! ll junn throuJ!h t he l'llnds of people as they rMd it outside, He does not need to say anything and that is why · the honourable r,entle­ man brinl?s it up. Now, Mr. Chairman, • 3984

April 23, 1974 Tape '1251 (Afternoon) PK - 1 That is why the honourable member brings it up. No,-,, ~'r. Chairman, the p:roup life insurance contract that this government awarded last year to cover employees of the province on that there wag never anything done more openly and above board and properly. The Fon. }fr, )furphy and the Hon. ~r. Coll:fns had not anythinl!: to do with it. Nothinr, to do with it. The whole thing was done by civil servants of this government, advised by the chief insurance man from the Government of Canada and advised by Katea, Peat, Marwick and CoTllflany.

Proposals were c'alled from all insurance companies interested. Eight or ten pronosals were made. Mutual Life and two or three others were the lowest. They scrutinized them. They gave the low ones a chance to come in and meet with the committeC! and point out their good featur.es and their bad features. They gave them all a chance to say they would open an office in Newfoundland to deal with this business. Mutual Life was the only one that agreed to do that of these two or three close bidders. Mutual Life was then recommended to the government, Mr.

Chairman, by this co!lllllittee of civil servants and interested parties who are to be in the plan themselves,that this should be the company that got it, and it was recommended by Kates, Peat, Marwic~ and it was recommended by the representative of the Government of Canada who looks after this kind of insurance for the whole Government of Canada. That went t