VOL NO. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, MAY 17, 1982 NO. 6

May 17, 1982 Tape No . 247 so - l 'l'hc llousc met at 3:00P.M . t-11. !>pe.Jk1•1 in Llu .' Ch;1ir . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Pursuant ,o

section 29, subsection l of the Parliamentary Commissioner (Ombudsman) Act, the Seventh :~nnunl report or the Parliamentary Commissioner was received in my off .ice a few days ago and I nol·l table this report and wLll ~rrange for all hon . members to receive a copy. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS H? . SPEAKER : HR . Mli.RSliJ\LL: The hon . President of the Council . Mr . Speaker, I have a statement t·n 111:1kt'. rt is .1n nr.11 sr.1t.0 mC'n t :~nc'l it j s u stlll'<'ment 1.,rith t'C'!': '>CcL Lo the mcetinq that occurred on l-'riday with the hon . tiinister of Mines , Energy and Resources (Mr . r.alonde) in Ott:awa .

And I make this statement from the point of view of informing the llouse as to the course of the meeting and as to the result of the meetinq itself . The meeting \o~as held in Montreal lvith ~tr . Lalonde , myself and van.ous officials . At that mcctimJ the position of this Province 1o~as reiterated to Mr . Lalonde 1-1hich is, briefly , that we wish negotiations to recommence ,but negotiations on the offshore cannot recommence until the federal government is prepared, as 1-1e are,to set the issue of owner ship aside during the course of the ncqotiations and permanently in the event that an a~recmcnt is reached.

And secondly, that once that step has been taken, a st .ep,by the way, which this Province took when it e:ntered into the negotiations,but once the federal qove1·nment is prepared to take that step we would then expect the federal government to respond to the propo sal that has been placed before the federal governmenc on January 25th last which very s9ec ifically addresses itself 54 5

l-1ayl7, 1982 MR . MARSHALL : Tape No . 247 SD-2 to the issues of joint management and meaningful revenue sharing . As ! say, that position was put before the federal government and Mr. Lalonde indicated that he understood the position and that he lvould take it to his colleagues . The fact of the matter is that the ball, wi~h respect to the re sumpt ion of negotations on the o~fshorC' , is now in the.: Cc<lcral courL . It is ,.,ith Llu.! r~·<.lt~t·aJ '}I>V...:lnm,•nL and when the federal government is prepared to indicate thaL it is prepared to negotiate on that basis negotations can recommence .

I also made the minister aware, ,,•hich I feel in fairness to him that he 1-1as already awar e of as 1o1ell, that I ,,•as speaking :rom the point of view of the government of this province but I was also quite clearly speaking from the ~oint of view of the people 546

May 17,1982 Tape No. 248 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL : of the Province who passed on this particular proposal on April 6th., and had given an overwhelming mandate to this government and in so doing gave their overwhelming approval to it. That particular proposal, Mr. Speaker, we feel is an agreement which gives a reasonable resolution to the issue of the offshore.

It is one that should be seriously addressed by the federal government but we require first of all, as I said, that ownership be set aside ~ecause we could never be party to entering into an agreement where that agreement could be torn up by either party at will. So that is the situation. We are prepared to renegotiate but not, Mr. Speaker, at any price, not at the price of the cost of the future of Newfoundland and the heritage to which the people of New­ foundland are entitled.

We fervently hope, the people of this Province and the government of this Province fervently hopes that the federal qovernment will address itself to this proposal, that they will .be prepared to put ownership aside on the basis that we have indicated, and that they will address themselves in a realistic way to this reasonable proposal which I might indicate, Mr. Speaker, has been greeted very positively by the business community throughout Canada. So that is the situation. That is the sum total of the result of those discussions. They were beneficial in a sense.

I would not wish the people of this Province to have any impre~sion that negotiations are going to recommence because it would be irresponsible of the government, or any party, to raise the hopes of the people of this Province and have them dashed in the future. 547

May 17,1982 Tape No . 248 N!-1 - 2 MR. r-'.tAru>HALL : We wish ne9otiations to re- cornmence,but if ~~ey commence it will depend upon the federal government and will depend upon them entering into,not just giving lip-service to the premise that ownership would be set aside, but also approaching it in a meaningful way with this in their minds because bo~~ parties have to enter into a permanent agreement, one that cannot be torn up at will by one of the parties . 'fie are prepared to do this and I would certainly hope as a result of the discussions on Friday that the federal government will as well.

But I have to inform the Bouse, Mr. Speaker, that >~hether or not that occurs will depend upon the way in ~1hich the federal government addresses itself to the position that was put forth by myself as a representative of the government, and I feel 548

May 17,1982 Tape No.249 ah-1 MR. Ml\RSHALL: certainly in this case that I can say with a great deal of confidence as a result of the mandate which the government received on behalf of the people of the Province of Newfoundland. SOME !-ION MEMBERS MR.SPEAKER (Russell): MR.NEARY: Hear, hear! The bon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, first of all I would like to ask the bon. gentleman if the proposal to which he keeps referring has ever been tabled in the House? I do not ever recall seeing a copy tabled in this bon. House.

And if it has not been tabled,would the bon. gentleman undertake to table the proposal so that all members on both sides of the House could have a copy so that we can qo over it in greater detail? PHEMIER PECKPORD lt has all been gone over during the election. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have to confess that I have never, ever laid m~ eyes on the proposal. ~ this year. We saw the Premier putting it off for MR.NEA~Y: So I think in all fairness, Mr. Speaker, the proposal should be tabled. Is the Premier saying that they will not table the proposal? AN HON MEMBER: I hope not. MR.

NEARY: As far as the meeting in'Montreal is concerned, Mr. Speaker, there is not much that we can say about it except that I am rather concerned about the way that the Minister of Energy (Mr.Marshall) makes his presentation in this house. He talks in such a way that it looks like he is trying to intimidate Ottawa, lik0 No "~ay will ~~agree to an agreement,' he says, 'that 1 •i L l L c torn up at will by one of the parties.' That •they are just not providing lip service! 'We are not going to negotiate at any price.• 548

May 17,1982 Tape No. 249 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFORD : Right . MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Premier says right. Well it may be right,but in the interest of getting negotiations on the rails would it not be far better to ask the Minister of Energy (Mr.Mur.shall) to restrain himself until such time as they sit down in good faith around the table? PREMIER PECKFORD: No. MR.NEARY: The Premier says no. Well maybe they do not want an agreeJTln:nt-_. I do not know·. Maybe they do not want a negotiated agreement.

I asked the Minister of Energy (Mr.Marshall) the other day what would happen in the event that an agreement was negotiated, would they withdraw their case from the Appeal's Court, and I did not get an answer. But we are hoping, Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House are hoping that the federal government will agree to set aside the ownership question in the interest of gcttinq negotiations started. Both sides, I think, believe in a negotiated settlement. But I do not think - and , Mr. Speaker, another thing, the hon.gentleman did not indicate whether or not there was a favourable response from Mr.

Lalonde The meeting,as I understand it,only lasted one hour and I am sure that the Minister of Energy (Mr.Marshall) from this Province did not do all the talking. I am sure there must have been suggestions and proposals and ideas put forward by the federal minister. Would the hon. gentleman tell us what reaction he got from the federal Minister of Energy (Mr. Lalonde)? And is there any hope that the minister may aqree to this? 55[1

May 17, 1982 Tape 250 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: He certainly did not come to the table at that meeting empty-handed. He must have made some ov0rt:ur-c~s or some indication to the han. gentleman whether o1· 11nL i.l~ was possible. MR. MARSHALL: Do you want to ask during Question Period? MR. NEARY: No, I am asking now and I would like to get the answers now if I could. Was there any indic- ation that this might happen so we can get the negotiations started again? PREMIER PECKFORD: This is abuse of the Ministerial Statement. MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : The han. minister MR. !VlARSHALL : If I might say, Mr.

Speaker, in the interests of maintaining the normal practices in this Jlousc, which are the normal practices of the British Parlia- mentary system, I would be quite prepared to respond to those questions if the hon. gentleman wishes to put them in Question Period. My statement was for the purpose of informing hon. members. He has asked a number of questions there and if the hon. gentleman wishes a response, I would be delighted to respond to him in Question Period. HR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : Are there any other statements by Ministers? HS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education MS.

VERGE: Mr. Speaker, on Friday, May 14th, I reported to this han. House that there had been some irreg- ul.1ritic'S in tlw j>Jymcnl: ol substitute tc~achcrs and that u police investigation has been requested into the matter. This information was given by me during a discussion on the Auditor General's report. There now appears to be confusion and mis- information surrounding this whole matter. Various news media have indicat0d that millions of dollars 551

May 17, 1982 Tape 250 EC - 2 MS VERGE: have been misappropriated. For example, the Evening Telegram on Saturday carried a headline stating that fVlissing funds total $19 million.' This is untrue. The amoJnt in question is closer to $19,000. In order to set the matter straight and clear up any misunderstanding that might still exist, I would like to repeat what I said in the House on Friday and what I later elaborated on to news reporters. Early this Winter the Department of Education teacher payroll officials discovered that some irregularities were taking place in the payment of substitute teachers.

Pay for substitute teachers is processed separately from the regular teachers' payroll. After further examination of the problem and appropriate disciplinary action, officials of my department requested the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary to make an official investi­ gation. I have been informed that the police assignment is now completed and the report will be submitted to the Department of Justice soon, possibly later this week. In the meantime, my department's detailed internal audit of payroll accounts for the last two years indicates that the amount of funds affected is actually $19,703.25.

It is my understanding that all of this amount except for $1,349 is being returned by banks that cashed unauthorized cheques. Depending on the contents of the police renort, possible legal action may lead to the recover: of the 552

~lay 17 , 1 9 8 2 Tape No . 251 ~1J - 1 t'l;i~__y_F:RGE.:. balance of $1,349 . It is hoped that no funds what ·soever will be lost to government . Available information indicates thac no teacher is owed money as a result of this incident . I would also like to report, Mr . Speaker , that in accordance with the recommendations of the Auditor General, a number of steps have been taken to tighten internal control of the teachers' payroll system ano reduce the possibility of further incidents of this nature .

Furthermore,the Department of Education,assisted by the Department of Finance and Treasury Board ,is working with Ne \Y'foundland and Labrador Computer services in developing an improved computer payroll system . ORAL QUESTIONS i>1R . S. NEARY : Mr . Speaker. MR . Sl'-E~~R (Russell) : The hon . the Leader of the Opposition . M.R . ~EA~Y : Mr . Speaker , as a result of the Ministerial Statement made by the Minister o£ Energy (Mr . W . Marshall) today in the Rouse and the secret meeting that took place in Montreal on Friday, could the hon . gentleman tell the House if there was any indication from Mr .

Lalonde that the Government of Canada would accede to the proposal to set aside the owership question while negotiations are being carried on anct,you know,were the meetings carried out in a generally friendly atmosphere and what the possibility is of getting the negotiations started again? M.R. SPEAKER : <.:ounciJ.. MR . N . JY.ARSHALL : The hon . the President of the Mr . Speaker, I thought I had made it 553

May 17 , 1982 Tape No . 251 M..l - 2 1-tR . W. MARSHALL : quite clear that there was no indication that the federal government would accept the position except that the !\on . gentleman indicated that he would ta!<c our premise to his colleagues and that is '"here the matter now stands . That is wby I say the ball now rests in the federal court . As to whet.iler or not therP ls a:l' PCssi.oility .:;f o:t\jre .. m.~nt , I do not know whether then · is • ny possibility~ we certainly hope there \vOuld , Sut ~;hether or not there is to be any agreement, Mr .

Spea~er, whether there is any possibility of any negotiations re -commencing it is going to depend entirely and absolutely on the federal qovernment indicatinq that they are prepared to enter into an aqrecment thut cannot b(~ lor-n up at will by either party . MR . S. NEARY : ~1r . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . the Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY: Mr . Spe.:tkcr, would the hon . lJCnL lman tell the House if ~r. Lalonde made any counter proposals? Obviously , Mr .

Spea'< er, the hon . gentlmen is aware,as are all members of this House,that the matter that the hon. qentlcMan raised about setting aside the offshore o1..rership question, I presume that has been raised in the federal cabinet and in the £ederal caucus on~~ number of occassions oreviously,but did the Minister of Energy (Mr . Lalonde) for the Government of Canada make any counter proposals to the hon . qentleman? 554

.. ,. May 17, 1982 Tape 252 PK - l MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARS HALL: No, Mr. Speaker. He made no direct counterproposal. The only reference that the hon. gentleman made was with respect to the Nova Scotian agreement. And I advised him,as the government has advised the federal government from time to time 1 that Doomsday will come and go before this government will considering entering into an agreement - PREMIER PECKFORD: That is right. Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: - on the basis of which Nova Scotia entered an agreement. Because, Mr.

Speaker, that agree- ment does not address joint management. It gives the management to the entire offshore of Nova Scotia to the federal government. It does not address in a meaningful way the revenue question, because what it does it tags it to equalization payments,and in that respect in a very ineffective manner. So it is the type of agreement that-we do not pursume to tell the Government of Nova Scotia what it should sign and what it should not sign. But we do know that that particular agreement is totally unpalatable and totally unsuitable to this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure listening to the hon. gentleman if the conversation that we were told by the press lasted an hour with Mr. LaLonde if it was a one-sided conversation, the minister making his proposals and no reactior, from the federal Minister of Energy (Mr. LaLonde). Was there any discussion, for instance, at this meeting , the importance now of Hibernia, now that the Alsands 555

May 17, 1982 TApe 252 PK - 2 MR . NEARY: mega -project is being scrapped? Did ~e two ministers talk about now the importance of getting Hibernia developed as quickly as pos sib le? Did that matter come up? MR. MARSHALL: Not directly, Mr . Speaker. But I assume that that was within the mind of the federal minister himself when he initiaced the meeting in the first place .W e have done,and I thin~ we are doing, a very good job in this Province in looking after the L~terests of the people of this Province . SOME HON . MEMBeRS : Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: We are also very concerned about the interest of the people of Canada . But the problems with the interest o£ the people of Canada and the Province with Alsands are not really matters with which we can deal and deal effectively. They lie within the bailiwick of Mr. LaLonde and the federal government . Z.1R . NEARY: A final supplementar y, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Ru ssell ): A final supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~m . NEARY : Mr . Spea~er, is the hon . gentleman optimistic that as a result of this secret meeting in Montreal that negotiations in fact now will again start up?

Or is the hon . gentleman - 556

May l 7, 19 82 Tape No. 253 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: I am not sure if he is optimistic or pessimistic - would the hon. gentleman give us the general feeling that he got? I mean he must have gotten some feel from the meeting with Mr. Lalonde. Was he stubborn and unwilling to move? , You know, give us some idea. The hon. gentleman should be able to give us some idea,without building up hopes,of whether or not he is optimistic now that the initial meeting has taken place. Has there been any future meetings arranged,for instance?

Have the two ministers now agreed to allow the officials to get back as it again and start negotiating again? Was there any talk about that? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I avoid saying whether I am optimistic or not,to tell you the truth. But hope springs eternal even when one is considering what can possibly eminate from the federal government. What has eminated from the federal government in recent times does not qive one any grounds to be optimistic. I cannot say that I am optimistic. I cannot say really that I am pessimistic.

All I can do is advise the House that this government has put its position again, reiterated its position to the federal government with respect to these basic matters, There are no future meetings planned. We are quite prepared to address ourselves and attend any future meetings at any time if the federal government is prepared to get back to the basis upon which negotiations started in the first place. But I can only say this, Mr.

Speaker, that we view it in the government as a rather unfortunate situation in this Province, that it seems that in order to get your rights within the Ca nadian Confederation, whether it be on the Upper Churchill, the Lower Churchill, or whether it be with respect 557

May 17, 1982 Tape No . 253 NM - 2 MR . MARSHALL : to the offshore resources, that it seems that we must resort to court on every occasion. ~~ile we have great fai~~ in the strength of our court cases we would prefer to be able to resolve these differences by way of negotiation. But whether or not this negotiation is going to take place,solely, entirely depends now on the federal government's attitude with respect to it . We, ~~.

Spea~er, will not be entering into negotiations unless there is an agreement that ownership is going to be set aside during the period of negotiations,and permanently in the event that an agreement is reached and unless the federal government agrees to address itself to the very reasonable proposal with respect to offshore resources, with respect to joint management and revenue sharing . Otherwise, ~~ .

Speaker, we would be selling out the interest of the people of Newfoundland and I can guarantee the hon . gentlemen there opposite , as well as the guarantee has been given ~o the Minister of Energy, ~tines and Resources (Mr. Lalonde) if in fact he is interested in that guarantee,that 558

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 254 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: this government has no intention whatsoever of selling the people of Newfoundland down the river. "'!R. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. I thought the hon. gentleman introduced a new thing into his last comments about court action. Did I gather from the hon. gentleman's remarks that there is a possibility now that the matter may just break off and go to the courts? Because the hon. gentleman brought it up.

He said, I think,something like this,that the only way we seem to be able to get things settled in this Province is through the court. Did that matter come up of whether or not ~f there are no negotiations,to go directly to the Supreme Court of Canada? 111R. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, it never came up whether this matter would go directly before the Supreme Court of Canada because this would be unthinkable. It would be the most hostile act towards the people of this Province that had ever been perpetrated by a central Canadian Government.

Because the fact of the matter is that this is a constitutional issue that has arisen between the federal and provincial government. Within the history of this nation. there has never been an instance where there has been a direct reference unless there had been an agreement between the federal and the provincial governments. The Supreme Court of the Province concern is usually the one of original jurisdiction. So certainly that never came up, that situation never came u9.

Now the position that we are in now is that we are prepared to negotiate if there is agreement, as I say, from the federal government on these points which constitute the basic foundations. In the meantime,we have the matter before the Supreme Court of 559

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 254 SO - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Newfoundland. We have a great deal of confidence in the court cuse, in the strcn\Jht nr tile court case of this Province. And I believe really, although this was not said, that as a result of the initiative of the government, ~a result once again of this government taking the initiative and asserting the rights of the people of Newfoundland through court, that to one degree or another that has tempered a little bit perhaps the attitude of the federal government.

Because heretofore, for reasons I cannot comprehend, they have had an idea that our court case has not been as strong as the court case of the federal government. It is stronger in our view and it is a very strong case. So we are operating from the point of view of the court case, number one; but I can tell the hon. gentlemen there opposite if the federal government wishes to sit down and negotiate in what we style as good faith, we are prepared to do it as in any instance it is possible to negotiate a settlement between people of good will short of court.

We have the good will; we now wait to see whether the federal government has equal good will towards us and the people of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. CALLAN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Supplementary, the hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) I wnnt to ask the Premier a question coming out of the Auditor Generals rer)ort which was tabled last week.

Just to give the Premier some background,on page 48 the Auditor General refers to a gratuitous payment of public funds and deficiencies in engineering desiqn estimates. t:. r: n

May 17, 1982 Tape 255 EC-1 MR. CALLAN: With regard to the $12,500 overpayment, out of court settlement really, this gratuitous payment, as the Auditor General calls it, let me ask the Premier, and in leading up to it let me refer the Premier to the departmental observations which was also tabled on Friday. It says, 'Many factors can come into play in chan~ing quanities on w1it price contracts' this was a unit price contract and even with the best of planning significant over runs or under runs can occur.In this case there was an under run and an out of court settlement.

The departmental observation says this: "Most jurisdictions tendering unit price contracts allow for renegotiation of unit prices if any item is 15 per cent of the estimited bid quanity. Although there has been significant pressure from the construction industry to introduce this renegotiation clause in our contracts, the department has consti tently refused."' Let me ask the Premier then quite simply why has the Department of Transportation, or his administration or whatever, why have they consistently refused to use this sort of renegotiation system? MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Primarily, Mr. Speaker, because very often it will lead to a lot of companies taking advantage of that particular procedure and the way we try to operate is to keep them within the bounds of whatever the contract was. But if from time to time, as in this case, it does occur and it seems in our best judgement, both from the Department of 'l'rwnsportation, in this case, and the Department of Justice, that there is a case to be made from the contractor's point of view, then if you can get a reasonabie settlement out of court, fine and dandy.

But once you establish that as a practice you might be encouraging less attention to detail and additional kinds of requests coming forward from contractors looking for that 15 per cent. So up until this point in time we have stuck to our guns and said no, but if s 6 'j

May 17, 1982 Tape 255 EC-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: some contractor, as in this case, came forward with that was perceived to be a legitimate casL' after it was fully viewed, well, then you could try to do an out of court settlement. But to establish that as policy might encourage a lot more out of court settlements than is presently the case. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : A supplementary, the han. the member for Bellevue. 562

May 17,1982 Tape No. 256 ah-1 MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I think the Premier has essentially said that there is still no thought given to implementing this plus or minus fifteen per cent item. In my supplementary,and referring again to pag~ 48 of the Auditor General's Report,it says, ''l'he department acknowledged that the design work was inadequate on this project~ The design work was inadquate. 'The estimate for the proj~ct was made up simply by an engineer driving to and looking at the location,' an example of lack of design planning.

Let me ask the Premier then is his administration,now or since thisoccurred, is the Premier's administration ensuring t"!oi"t nesign work is done adequately and properly so that there will not be any more of these out of court or in court settlements? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAI<ER: member for Bellevue. MR.CALLAN: The hon. Premier. Yes, Mr. Speaker, absolutely. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. Well, okay then.

Ifthe Premier is so quick to answer yes to that one 1let me move to the top of page 49 of the Auditor General's Report where it says,"Certain road projects"- here is a second reason,by the way,for this out of court settlement-"Certain road projects for their ridings were selected by members of the House of Assembly." Obviously they were PC members since - PREMIER PECKFORD: No, I can guarantee that. MR.

CALLAN: had a chanc('· - I or no one on this side 'rhey•were selected by members of the House of Assembly" on a moments's notice•: and estimates and tenders'- estimates and tenders~had to be compiled on extremely short notice. It was also indicated that 56 :i

May 17,1982 Tape No. 256 ah-2 MR. CALLAN: most of the work selected by the ITernbers to be undertaken was not projects that the Department of Transportation had anticipated and, hence,no design work had been completed.' So let me ask the Premier then, when he answers, yes, so quickly,is he also insuring that MHAs on the government benches will not continue this practice or,if it is qoing to be continued,will members on both sides of the House be given the same opportunity? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, members of the House of Assembly write, I take it, to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) from time to time / the Minister of Transportation (Mr.Dawe) makes recommendations to Cabinet,and Cabinet finally decides on what the road's programme is going to be for the Province, what the water and sewer programme is going to be for the Province,and that is where the decisions are made. They are made by Cabinet after the minister and the officials take into consideration the representations from the members of the House of Assembly. Now I do not know how good a job the member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) does in representing his district. All I know is that there are members on this side that do a heck of a job in representing their districts. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.CALLAN: MR.SPEAKER: MR.CALLAN: Speaker. MR.WARREN: Jamieson would do. MR. CALLAN: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Bellevue . A final supplementary, Mr. He is doing better than Bas A final supplementary. Mr. Speaker, the Premier wants to know what kind of a job the member for Bellevue (Mr.Callan) is doing. 56 i,

May 17,1982 Tape No. 257 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: The Premier knows that he already has two letters corning out of the last episode that we had in the district of Bellevue, the last election there, regarding a bridge in Chapel Arrn,for example, which design work has been finished and completed on for years and years. So let me ask the Premier once again -the Premier says that the members, you know, go to Cabinet and they make representations. The Auditor General does not say that. The Auditor General says that it was selections made by members of the House of Assembly' on a moment's notice'.

Let me ask the Premier ~gain, is he going to include us on the Opposition benches? Are we going to be allowed as well? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. No. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. Premier. Mr. Speaker, what happens is that the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) makes representation to Cabinet and it is only after a Cabinet order is issued that projects are begun and that is the procedure that is followed· That is done after there has been a fair amount of representation from members of the House of Assembly, from people in the local area and so on.

But there is no roads project started unless Cabinet has decided that the roads project should go ahead. And that is the way it is supposed to be. I know the hon. member has problems in his district with that bridge, also with other roads in his district. That is not the only problem the hen. member has with that bridge. The hen. member has many, many problems in his district and has had them for some time, I think. MR. CALLAN: I know. PREMIER PECKFORD: And we will try as best we can over the next few years - 565

May 17,1982 Tape No. 257 MR. CALLAN: Another problem is the Markland Hospital where the Premier was born in 1942. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: I am very happy that the han. member takes note of my birth. It is something that I did not want to b~ing up in the House today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please: NM - 2 MR. NEARY: I did not want to brinq up in the House today that I was born in Markland, in the great district of Bellevue,in 1942 - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: PREMIER PECKFORD: - but if the hon. member wants to raise that as an issue in this House,well,sobeit. I do not know if the sun was shining that day or whether it was thunder and lightening or whatever. But I am more interested right now - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: If the hon. member is more interested in my birth date, I am not. I am more interested in his bridge in Chapel Arm. I am more interested in the other roads. I am more interested in the Markland Hospital and all the other problems that the hon. member has on his plate.

I know he is driven crazy by his constituents. MR. CALLAN: That is right. PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. member wants to ensure that the qradual slide in popularity - MR. CALLAN: Yes or no on the hridge. PREMIER PECKFORD: - the bon. member wants to ensure that the gradual slide in popularity and that great majority that he started off with a few years ago does not continue to go down so that next time he is no longer the member for Bellevue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: 566

. ~ Hay 17,1982 Tape No. 257 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . member for Port au Port. MR . HODDER: Mr . Speaker, I am completely amazed. I might point out that whenever the Premier goes on with that little tirade it means that he is trying to divert attention. MR . NEARY : Right on . ~ffi . HODDER: But, Mr . Speaker, I am completely amazed that the Premier would get up and defend the action of MHAS going cirectly - SOM F. ~10'1 . MEMBf:RS: Oh, oh ! -- -- · MR . SPEAKER : Order , please! MR. HODDER : - Mr . Speaker, that 5fJ7

May 17,1982 Tape 258 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: the Premier would defend the action of members going directly to the minister·, because the Auditor General clearly says that these particular roads were done at a moment's notice without proper design. HR. NEARY: Pork barrelling! Pork barrelling! HR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the question I would like to ask the Premier: How does the government decide priorities in road building? And if there are priorities, would the Premier make them available to the Province~ Because obviously there are roads that need to be done worse than others in the Province.

And so therefore if the government does have priorit}es they should let the House of Assembly know what they are. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): PREMIER PECKFORD : Partisan politics. The hon. Premier . Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is disappointed that I defend the right of every member of this House to contact the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe},I am going to continue to defend it. I think the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) has every right in this world to make representation to the ~~inister of Transportation. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: ~.nd I do not think that should ever be flaunted. That is a very good right. What is the member for Port au Port going to do if he cannot go and speak to the Minister of Transportation about roads in Port au Port? MR. BAIRD: Demand the rigi1t. PREMIER PECKFORD: I will stand up for the member for Port au ?ort, and that is what I will. I will stand up for the member for Fogo and defend his right to go and sit down in the minister's office and say to the Minister of Transportation, 'I have a bad road in my district and 1 want L;j:;Q

.... May 17, 1982 Tape 258 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: something done on this road.' So to preface my answer I must say to the hon. member that I will continue to defend the right of every member of this House to be able to go and - SOl-IE F.ON . t-1EMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: - speak to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) abc:>ut problems on roads in his distr ict . That is number one . Number two, Mr . Speaker, obviously there are many factors that go into establishing the roads programme or all programmes .

If there is a need bad the need i s in the area, how bad the road is: how much traf f ic goes over the road and how much fi sh goes over the road . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! PREMIER PEC~FORD : All the business spinoff~, the number of people that are involved in it. And, of course, the active and agress ive 111ay i:n which the members make representation to the minister . Because obviously these members over here think it is wrong to make representation to the Hinister of Transportation . I do not think - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER l?ECKPORD: - the members over here feel t:ha t way ilt all . SOME HON .

MEMBERS: Right on! SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell ) : The hon . member for To~gat Mountains . ~·'R. ~'-'1\RREN : t1r . ~P('I't)<er. MR. NEARY: The arrogance of thqt government . Bring i n ~ne Television cameras. so s

May 17, 1982 Tape 258 PK -3 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Siwms). It is too bad, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. minister has only been in that position for the past few days, but conccrninq the Auuitor General's report, again on page 45, 3,210 complimentary tickets from the Arts and Culture Centre- MR. TULK: MR. WARREN: What? 3,210. I would just like to ask the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth 57 fl

May 17, 1982, Tape 259, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARREN: tickets issued to? who were those complimentary MR. CALLAN: MR. BARRETT: be able to respond to that one. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: I got one. Ah, you will never The hon. the Minister Mr. Speaker, obviously I would need a bit of notice, so maybe I should take the question as notice. I do not know who they were issued to, that ~s the answer. MR. WARREN: .Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER : for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: A supplementary, Mr • Oh, oh! The hon. the member Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary to the minister: The minister said he would take it as notice. Is the minister telling me that maybe tomorrow or in the next day or so he will come back with an itemized list of 3,210 names - MR. BARRETT: MR. CALLAN: Do not forget it. MR. WARREN: tickets were.issued to? MR. CALLAN: secretary now, do not forget that. MR. BARRETT: MR. WARREN: MR. CALLAN: MR. WARREN: Yes. (Inaudible). You are a secretary now. - of to whom those You are a $14,000 What a waste of time. And if it is - Behave yourself. Well, it may be a waste of time, but it also includes - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! 571

May 17, 1982, T~pe 259, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY : Were they ministers or members on the government side? MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, we are concerned because it is over $20,000 of the taxpayers' money of this Province. Now, there were some for the Lieutenant-Governor and for dignitaries visiting the Province,I see nothing wrong with it at all. I am just wondering how many members of the House of Assembly have been given complimentary tickets to attend features at the Arts and Culture Centre. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, first of all the bon. member wants me to provide a list of all the onesi now he has narrowed it down, he wants to know the names of the members of the House of Assembly who have received them, on both sides, I presume. MR. CALLAN: Oh, yes. MR. SIMMS: He wants to know on both sides. Well, I would have to take notice of that. But let me say this first of all, we do not particularly agree with the recommendation of the Auditor General and his comments regarding complimentary tickets. And I welcome the support of the bon. the member for Torngat Mountains(Mr.

Warren), because he has just said basically the same thing. However, what we have said we will do is try to put in place a specific policy specifying the circumstances under which tickets can be given and who will have the authority to issue those tickets. We will be looking at that as per the recommendation of the Auditor General. With respect to the other question, I will take it as notice. 572

May 17, 1982, Tape 259, Page 3 -- apb MR. NE.l'\RY: MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker . The hon . the Leader Mr . Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice(Mr . Ottenheimer) - and I am glad to see he is back in his seat after a prolonged absence from the House on official busines s, I presume . Would the hon . gentleman tell the House if he has ever given the l.l1inister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) or the Cabinet a valid legal opinion on whether or not it is legal for the provincial government to borrow from the sinking fund, from the Consolidated sinking fund, as was reported in the Auditor General 's Report tabled in the House on Friday? Is there a valid 573

May 17, 1982 Tape 260 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: legal opinion available? and if there is would the hon. gentleman undertake to table it in the House? MR. SPEAKER {Russell): The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, my memory is that the Department of Justice was asked for an opinion on this and gave a verbal opinion to the effect that it was legal, that it was something which could legally be done. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr.

Speaker, I asked the hon. the Minister of Justice, the Attorney General, who gives the advice to the Cabinet, if there was a valid legal opinion given and the hon. gentleman answered me by saying that there was an oral opinion given. Now in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, that is not a valid legal opinion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Now when we are dealing with such a serious matter, Mr. Speaker, would the hon. gentleman tell us whether or not it would be preferable to have an opinion in writing and can the hon. gentleman get an opinion for this House? Because I think it is a very important matter, Mr.

Speaker, when you have money being put into the consolidated sinking fund out of consolidated revenue and then borrowed back by the same government that put it into the consolidated sinking fund. That seems to me to be highly improper. I do not know whether it is illegal or not, I can only take the hon. gentleman's word for the oral legal opinion that was 574

May 17, 1982 Tape 260 EC - 2 MR. NEARY : given. But surely in a matter as important as this, will the hon. gentleman undertake to get a legal opinion for this House? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . the Minister of Justice . MR. OTTENHEIMER : Mr. Speaker, certainly there \~as a legal opinion given to the Depa rtment of Finance by the Department of Justice to the effect that it was legal to borrow from the sink~ng fund . It was an oral opinion , not a written one. I would suggest that that would not affect its validity, I mean the fact that it would be oral rather than written.

Also, certainly a factor to bear in mind is that it is consistent with previous practice. If my memory is correct, in 1966, which would have been under a Liberal administration, and in 1972,\._rhich would have been under a Progressive Conserv ative administration, a similar practice was follo\ ·led and I \~Ould think that probably part of the reason that it was oral rather than verbal is the fact that it was quite straightforward a matter on the part of the solic itors in the Department of Justice who were Si S

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 261 MJ - 1 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: asked to give that opinion and of course they were aware that it was consistent with practice. Now I do not think on the second part of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. S. Neary) question, probably I would have to think about that,but it probably would not be appropriate to offer legal advice to the House as such. I think that would be - you know, if there were a committee, say a Public Accounts Committee or this or that they would have their·own legal officer who could you know give legal advice to a Committee of the llouse.

BuL 1 do noL think iL would bt..:! uppropr.iatc. Obviously it is larqely hypotheticu1 because the hon. qcntlcmcn opposite know that the advice given to the government was that it was legal to borrow from the sinking fund, so naturally that advice would be the same to anybody,including the House of Assembly, although strictly speaking it probably would not be appropriate to give legal advice to the House of Assembly as such. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. the It seems to be hiqhly irreaular. in a matter as important as this, for the rrovcrnmC'nt not hJ haVl' a legal opinion in writing. That is most unusual and irregular. And, Mr. Speaker, I am going to ask the hon. gentleman now if he will tell us- the hon. gentleman obviously does not have it in writing- will he tell us who gave the hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer) the legal opinion? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, two matters there; one, I certainly would have a quite different opinion than the hon.

Leader of the Opposition on the fact that it would be inappropriate if it not be in writing.There is a great deal of burcaucrucy, there is a great deal of paper floating around from vurious 5/6

'--- f.-lay 17 , 1982 Tape No . 261 MJ - 2 ~~ . G.

OTTENREXMER: government departments and,you know,if a person is asked an opinion,and in the opinion of the person who \·~as asked the opinion it is quite straightfor"vard and there has been previous practice behind it and it is very straightforward, well it l·lOUld appear to me that the most expc,;ditim1s lvay is to say, 'Yes, in our opinion this is quite legal and it happened in 3.966 and it happened in 1972 and there is the act and there is nothing contrary to the act . ' Well, T su!)pose that is a matter of opinion but I do not really think hav i ncl i L on pope r a l tc rs the f acL .

Now 1vi th respect to - would I indicate 1"ho gave that legal advice, that might be inappropriate.~here i s sort of a principle I think, to the anonymity of the public service. It was the Department of Justice and certainly as Minister of Justice , as indeed 0\ll mLnisters , T ill11 responsible for those on my staff,just as the Minister of Finance (Dr . J . Collins) or Education (Ms . L. Verge) is for their; . so to identify which of the, let us say,twenty lawvers or more, lvho 577 ...

~·\ay 171 1982 Tape No . 262 SD - l MR . OTTENHEIME.~ : worked with t~e Department of Justice, you know, may have articulated that opinion \-IOuld, I think , be inappro:>riate . It was the Depaxtment of Justice and as minister of the department certainly the principle of ministerial re spons ibility is operative and I certainly fully recognize it and fully accept it . MR . NEA .RY : Supplementary, ~-tr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : '1;:1•· expired . ,\1R . NE/\RY : one again tomorrow . t-1R . SPEAI<ER : business - SOME HON . ~ffiMBERS : MR .

SPEAKER : The time for t,e /uestion Pnriod ~~ull,lllt- ~~uJ <wL hilt;k o1l 1111:: Before we proceed 1vith other Oh, oh . Order, please ! Ic is a pleasure for me to welcome to the qa1lerics twenty-seven Grade X stuncnts nne! two teachers from Cape John Collegiate in La Scie, White Bay. with their teacher s ~~ - Brett and Mr . Thoms from the district represented by the hon . mertber from Baie Verte - \'/hi te Bay ( l1r . Rideout ) . I welcome you to the galleries and trust that your visit is most intcrcstjnq . SOME HON . MEMBERS : M.R . GOUDIE: lltR . SPEAKER : Hear , hear . NOTICES OF MOTION Mr . Speaker .

The hon . Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development . 1-iR . GOUDIE : Mr . Speaker, I give notice th~t I will on tomorro1-1 ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Livestock Health Act" . t-1.~ . S?EAKER : The hon . ~inister of Justice . SIB

~·lay 17 , 1982 Tape No . 262 so - 2 ~m . O'l"l'l•:NI!ETMF.R : .... _ - Mr . Speaker , t () i vc notice that t 1-1iJ l on tomorro 1" ask .leave to introduce a pill ent i tled , " 1\n Act To Amend The Automobile Insuranc ·e .l!.ct" , and "An Act To /\mend The Uni£ied Family court Act" . ANSI'lERS TO QUESTIONS FOR NHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVE N Ml~ . GOUDIE : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . Minister of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development . MR . GOUDIE : Mr.

Speaker, I have ans\vers to tHo quest i ons t,rhich 1vere contained i n Friday ' s Order Paper asked by the hon . gen tlem a n f rom Torngat Mountai ns (Mr . Warre n) . Th€' Detailed ans\ver to one or Lhc yucst;io ns is here anrl t he <Jnswer to the other question having to do with the cos t of renovations to the minister's offi ce for the fiscal years 1979 , 1980 and 1981, i s there was no cost , Mr . Speaker . ... ORDERS OF THE DAY ~l.R . MARSIT/\LL : Order 1 , Address in Reply . MR . SPE/\K£R (Russell) : Address in Reply . The hon. member for Terra Nova . SOME liON . ~lEf>lBERS : Hear , hear . ~tR .

I.USfl : ~'lr . Speak er, it gives ~e grcac privilege today to lead off in this motion of reply . And, Mr . Speaker , 5 i :1

May 17, 1982 Tape 263 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: I want at this point to congratulate you, Sir - a little late, but somehow you get to do these things in the Throne Speech. Because of the way things went I did not get that opportunity. So I want to congratulate you, Sir, on your appointment to the Chair. I am sure that you are going to carry on the job, the great job that has been carried on by Speakers of this llouse and by your­ self, Sir, when you were a Speaker sometime previous.

I want to congratulate as well the Deputy Speaker and the other people who have been given appointments in the House, the Chairman of Committees, and I suppose, congratulate all members who have managed to get them­ selves elected or re-elected, whatever the case might be, in the last election. Mr. Speaker, in the last week government members have spent considerable time gloating over their recent victory at the polls, and I suppose that is understandable.

They have missed few opportunities to do so and also, of course, to remind hon. members on this side of the House of what happened to us, the substantial reduction, if you will, in our numbers. And allow me to say, Sir, that though we are only eight, we are proud, very proud that we were able to stem the tide MR. TULK: That is right. MR. LUSH: - that we were able to fight against the current, that we were each individually strong enough to ward off or to overcome, if you will, the infectiousness and the contagiousness of the Premier's cause. It is very easy, Mr.

Speaker, to go along with the tide, to be swept along with the tide, to be swept along wit-.11 l.:hc current, l>ul WL' on this s.idc ol LI\L~ llou~;L', 5Bf.l

May 17, 1982 Tape 263 EC - 2 ~iR . LUSH: Mr . Speaker, were able to ward off , as I said, the contagiousness of the cause and for that reason \-Je are very proud, Mr . Speaker . There must be something about the eight members over here that we were able to stem that tide, that we \.,ere able to stem that current and each go in with overwhelm­ ing majorities . Mr . Speaker, we are proud of that . \-le are proud, Mr . Speaker, that we were able to resist the emotion, if you will , which the Premier created before and during the election . Although we are only eight, we are proud we were each able to resist this 58 'I ·•

May 17,1982 Tape No. 264 ah-1 MR . LUSH: emotion and to come in here to be the Opposition. And we are proud, Mr. Speaker, for the sake of democracy and for democratic government. We are glad that the eight districts,that the people of these eight districts voted for an Opposition. I am not sure that they knew they were voting for an Opposition at the time that they voted but, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that those of us with any experience running elections can certainly sense a certain kind of feeling when it boils down to an overwhelming majority of forty-four to eight,or of thirty-nine to three,whatever the situation is. But, Mr. Speaker, I have always been told that our form of government, that our form of democratic government to be effective needs an Opposition, it needs a two party system. I suppose we could have more than that but I do not advocate more than the two parties Mr.

Speaker I am a great believer in that,but generally we refer to our form of government as the two party system and in order for that to be effective, in order for that to be effective and efficient we must have an Opposition. And whether that is right or wrong, M~. Speaker, is not for me to say but it se~ms to be u fair way. 1 think it wus Sir Winston Churchill who,in talking about our form of government,nade some suggestion that it was the worst form of government with the exception of all the others. So, Mr.

Speaker, as I said,it has been my feeling and from what I have heard and read by experts in the field on government that it is rather axiomatic,I suppose,that a good government requires a good Opposition. And though, Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that I necessarily agree with the hon. the House Leader when he mentioned tl1e fact that quality is not always contingent upon quantity. Mr. Speaker , that is true for many situations 58?

May 17, 1982 Tape 265 PK - 1 MR. LUSH:. but the truth of the matter is that in politics numbers are very important, they are very important for the practical practice and execution of politics. Numbers are indeed very important. Arid forty-four, Mr. Speaker, can beat eight any day. And that is the stark reality of the situation 1that forty-four can beat eight any day. MR. TULK}: But you are not scared. tm. LUSH: I think there are some forms of cards where that is not true, b:ut just about in every other situation that I know of, particularly in politics, forty-four beats eight every day. MR.

TULK: But you are not scared. MR. LUSH: And I do not think - as I said there are cards, there is a game of Eights I think where that does not apply. There is another game called School where that does not apply, but in politics, Mr. Speaker, forty-four beats eight any day. SOMl·: liON. ~~EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: So, Mr. Speaker, we are exceptionally proud that the constituents, the voters of eight districts decided to vote for us, decided to put us in as the Official Opposition to at least give us some semblance of democracy.

So, Mr, Speaker, it is gratifying to know that despite the current and despite the issues and despite the tactics used by hon. gentlemen opposite that we were able to stem that tide to give us 1 as I said,sorne semblance of democracy. It was difficult , Hr. Speaker, it was very difficult,as I said,stemming the tide. It was very difficult to fight the kind of literature and the kinds of techniques, I was going to say 'tactics', Mr. 583

May 17, 1982 Tape No . 265 PI< - 2 M.R. LUSH: Speaker, I will not say that, the kind of techniques used by the P.C . Party . I do not know what happened in the other districts, Mr . Speaker, but I know in my own that the biq issue w11s to put n member in on the government side \~ith the understanding, of course, that the Progressive Conservative Party was going to form the government, and there was this strong urging, if you will, by the P.C.

Party to vote for the person on the government side because if you put a per­ son on the government side then your district '"auld get more, they would get more in terms of public services, they would get more development, Mr. Speaker . MR. TULI<: ?hey '"ere going to get roads, and water and sewer. MR. LUSH: I remember one poor lady telling me that if the P.C. Government got in she was told that the economy woul<l pick Ul:' by 100 !,ler cenl in the 'l'crr.; Nova district . So, Mr . Speaker, that was pretty stronq stuff to overcome . But there is nothing illegal about it, I suppose .

I do not know of anything illegal about saying that kind of a thing . 564

May 17, 1982 MR. LUSH: believe. It Tape No. 266 NM - 1 It is certainly not ethical,! do not is certainly not ethical. I did not ask the people to vote for me,in three elections that I ran in, because I was going to be on the government side. I asked the people to vote for me on the basis of my own merits and of the party that I stood for. Regardless of whether I was going to be in government or opposition, that I was going to serve them well. So, Mr. Speaker, that kind of an approach, I believe, is something that has got to be wiped out of the electoral process to give people the free choice, Mr.

Speaker, that they deserve. But these were the kind of tactics, Mr. Speaker, that were used,and I would certainly hope that that is not the kind of government that we have, a government which would punish people for the way they voted. Surely each and every district of this Province is entitled to fair, just and equal treatment. They are not entitled, Mr. Speaker, to all of the monies granted by this Province, they are not entitled to some other district's monies, and they are not entitled to more than some other districts, but, Mr. Speaker, entitled to fair and an equal share.

Surely there is no district, no provincial constituency in the entire Province,irrespective of how it votes, or if it does not vote at all, there is no district, Mr. Speaker, that should be penalized for the way it votes. And I cannot for one see any connection between how a person votes and that district qettinq Llir and iust and cquill trcu.tmcnt from its 9overnment. And I hope, Mr. Speaker, that that will not be the case. And I hope that that will not be the case, and I hope that when the budget comes down that we will be able to say that that was not the case~ If it is, Mr.

Speaker, that kind of an approach is offensive, not in accordance with democratic principles. As I said,I do not say that kind of a thing is illegal,but it is certainly not- MR. R?BF.RTS: It is certainly not untrue. 565

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 266 NM - 2 MR. LUSH: It is not et~ical, Mr. Speaker, and not in accordance with democratic principles as we perceive them today. As a matter of fact I find it rather abhorent and 586

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 267 SD - 1 MR. LUSJI: insulting to people's intelligence; But we will see, Mr. Speaker, we will see how this government plans to operate very shortly, we will see. And we will see, Mr. Speaker, what will happen with the allocations of funds for paving of roads in this di,~ll it:! VL'ry slJL)J·tly; upqr;1dinq, n~construction and pavinq of roads, we will see. And as I have said, with this large number now, with this overwhelming majority, there is an onerous responsibility on the government to see that every district in this Province is treated justly, fairly and equJlly. Mr.

Speaker, I was talking about the numbers over here, the group of eight. I do not think it is the smallest Opposition that has been in this House since Confederation, I do not think it is. I believe maybe the smallest Opposition might have been in 1966 - I could be corrected on that - I think it was in 1966 when there were forty-two seats and the government of the day won thirty-nine and the Opposition of the day had three. So it was thirty-nine to three,or a ratio or a proportion of thirteen to one. That is for every thirteen members on the government side there was one on the Opposition side.

Today we have forty-four versus eight and my mathematics milkc that to be eleven to two. So for every eleven members on the government side there are two members on this side, 0verwhelming, mind you. MR. TULK: Five and a half to one. MR. LUSH: Five and a half to one, my hon. colleague says and that sounds reasonable - MR. TULK: There are a lot of halves over then'. MR. LUSH: - five and a half to one. So there is no question, M:r. Speaker, that that certainly demonstrates the size of the government and at the same time, Mr. Speaker, I think demonstrates the onerous responsibility 587

May 17, 1982 Tape No . 267 SD - 2 JliR . LUSH : placed on this government , r-tr . Speaker, to treat the people or this Pt"C)VillCt' f.1hly, iu~~lly and equally . I also believe, Mr . Speaker, that the~e was no great - ~robably it has not been the smallest precentage of the ~opular vote - I do not believe that that was the case either . This time we on this side of the !louse got ap~roximately 35 per cent of the popular vote . I believe the case in question where I referred to 1966 \•Jhen it was thirty -nine to three,that the popular vote ac that time for the Opposition was approximately 33 per cent .

So we are not the smallest Opposition that has ever been in this Eouse,neither have we obtained the smallest percentaqe of the popular vote . But, Mr. Spea ker, then' is ,,n tmp~>l t;ml point to be mudc, an importunl point to b..: r...:p...:ot0d .tnd realized , I belie 'le, and 588

May 17, 1982 Tape 268 EC - l MR. LUSH ; that is although we are only eight members, and though we are delighted and proud to represent the eight constituencies, the constituency of Bellevue, of Fogo, Port au Port, LaPoile, Strait of Belle Isle, Torngat Mountains, Eagle River and . Terra Nova, we also, Mr. Speaker, from a certain point of view,and in my opinion from a real point of view, have an obligation towards approximately the 35 per cent of the people throughout the Province who voted Liberal. We have an obligation, Mr.

Speaker, to that 35 per cent, the people who exercised their franchise to vote Liberal in the last election Province-wide, not only for these hon. members here present but for members, for Liberal candidates right throughout the Province. Certainly, our greatest responsibility of all though is toward all the people, all of the people in this Province. Because, Mr. Speaker, each and every member of this House of Assembly represents not only the constituency from which he or she is elected but, Mr. Speaker, from a certain point of view, as I said before, represents all of the people.

We are not merely members from a particular district, not merely a meiT.ber from Stephenville or a member from Fogo, but, Mr. Speaker, we are members of the House of Assembly. And, Mr. Speaker, these are not my ideas, that is the idea of many experts in the field of politics and parliamentary democracy, that as a member of a Parliament, a Parliament is an association of a nation, and this situation we are talking about, an association of the Province. Sb from that point of view, Mr. Speaker, we are not merely members for a particular district but we are members, we represent 589

May 17, 1982 Tape 268 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: all of the people in this Province, Mr. Speaker, and are trying to bring in policies and programmes for the general good of the total population with no prejudices and no malice against any district. That is parliamentary democracy, Mr. Speaker. And that is an important point, I think. I wanted to make th<lt today. In Vi\~W of the fact that we sit over here as eight members , I wanted to make that important point. sqn

May 17,1982 Tape No. 269 ah-1 MR. LUSII: So, Sir, approximately thirty-five per cent of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who exercised their franchise in the last election voted for various Liberal candidates throughout Newfoundland. And, Mr. Speaker, that is not a minority, thirty-five per cent, it: is not a splinter group. It is a substantial and considerable majority, thirty-five per cent of those people who voted. And I repeat, Mr.

Speaker, that our great obligations,from the point of view expressed.is that we represent all of the people of this Province, that we do not merely represent just a district but that we ceprescnt all of the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. As a member of the House of Assembly, we have that obligation towards the well-being, Mr. Speaker, and the good of the entire Province and its people. Clearly, then, clcnrly,an onerous responsibility has fallen on this government as a result of this overwhelming victory in the last election. But, Mr.

Speaker, all of that is not said on this side to indicate that we are <]oing t.o be timid. As an Opposition we intend to perform to the best of our ability. MR. NimRY: Heilr, hear! MR. LUSH: We intend, Mr. Speaker, to be an Opposition. Certainly we will oppose government. And I think it was Sir Winston Churchill who said that that was the role of an Opposition, to oppose. We certainly plan to do that, Mr. Speaker. We do not plan to oppose for the sake of opposing. We will also be supportive of government policy. We will also be supportive of government legislation.

We will also be supportive of programmes designed for the benefit of the people of this Province. So, Mr. sr~aker, we intend to be an Opposition. We intend to fulfill the duties that are ours because we are the 58.,

May 17,1982 '!'ape No. 269 ah-2 MR.LUSH: official Opposition. And, Mr. Speaker, we intend to support the government on its mandate. We intend to support the government, Mr.Speaker, on its offshore issue. We intend to support them on that. We have done so in the past. Every major piece of legislation that went through this House in the last two or three years relating to the offshore,we on this side of the House supported it,wholeheartedly we have supported it. MR.TULK: with it. MR.

LUSH: We did not play politics We did not pl.:ty politics with it.We suppo~ted it because we believed in the ownership, we believed in the development of our offshore ~esources and we still believe in them and we believe that we own them. And, Mr. Speaker, we will support the government on any initiatives in this area. We will support them on the mandate that they have gotten from the people of Newfoundland in that respect. And we support the government with respect to its hydro electric resources to getting transmission rights through Quebec. We have supported them on that.

Why there was a major piece of legislation that went through the last session on that and we supported that, Mr. Speak er. We will suppo rt them. We will support them on initiatives with respect to the development of the fishery. We will support them on that. And if this means, Mr. Speaker, opposing the federal governmen~ sobeit. MR.TULK: Right. MR.LUSH: We will oppose the federal government.But, Sir, we will not oppose the federal government for the sake of opposing any more than we will oppose the provincial government for the sake of opposing or to make cheap political points. We will .S Lj)

May 17,1982 Tape No. 269 ah-3 MR.L1JSII : not do that. We will not do that, Sir . MR.NEl\RY: Right on. 58-:

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 270 MJ - l MR. T. LUSH Mr. Speaker, we will not be like a bull in a china shop. We will select our own issues on which we will oppose the federal govern~ent. We will oppose the government discrimjnatcly. We will oppose the federal government on selective issues. And, Mr. Speaker, thoughout this Throne Speech - I have now come to the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, after these gem remarks, after these preliminary remarks - one can see a defeatist attitude has been accepted by this qovcrnment. A Clcfcatist's ;-tttitud,•. TC we do not qet the offshore, Mr. Speuker, it is ull over.

We have no confidence, Mr. Speaker, in the development of the tradition~l resources of this Province. If the offshore does not come and we do not get it in the way that the provincial qovernment wants it, it is all over. Everything is on hold. And, Mr. Speaker, as one goes through the Throne Speech we can see that that is the tune, that is the line, that is the song the whole way through 1 that without the offshore that this Province is doomed to poverty. All of a sudden we have come to the end of the line.

All of a sudden the traditional resources that have been the main reasons for the development of this Province, all of a sudden that is gone. No more can we develoo the forestry, no more can we <levclop ilqri culture, nn mon· can we develop mining, no more can we develop tourism, unless, Mr. Speaker, we get revenues from the offshore. And everything is on hold until that magic time, until that time in history when we start getting revenuP~ from the offshore, which will be 1992 or 1994, I am told in ten to twelve years. Now that do we do in the meantime, Mr. Speaker ?

But that is the attitude expressed through this whole Throne Speech, that is we clo not. get down to business and get this offshore developed then we are doomed to poverty. This is our last chance. Well, Mr. Spcuker, 5q4

May J 7, 19 82 Tape No. 270 MJ - 2 MR. 'I'. LUSH : we do not happen to believe that it is nllr lust chunce. Certainly it is very important and we w;1nt · to SL'C the offshore Jcvclopmcnt, we want to sec .it develop in a way that will give maxium returns to this Province. But we do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that we are doomed to pover-;:y,that everything is all over if we do not 58 J,

May 17 , 1982 Tape No . 271 NM - 1 MR . LUSH : ge t that done now . We are concerned, Mr . Speaker, about now. We are concerned about now . We are concerned about how the people of this Province arc going to live in the interim . We are concerned about that . And for that reason, Mr . Speaker, for that reaso n I want to move an amendment to the Throne Speech . AN HON . MEZ.1BER: Do not cry . MR. LUSH : I want to make an amendment to the Throne Speech . Mr. Speaker, seconded by the han . the member for Fogo (Mr .

Tulk), I move that the motion be amended by striking out all the words after "that", and replace them with the following ; " This Rouse reaffirms its faith in the future of Newfoundland and Labrador and calls upo:1 the ministry to present to the House and to the people of Ne\>~foundland and Labrador a detailed and specific outline of thei r goals for the development of this Province and the means by which they plan to achieve them ." SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . LUSR : This is an amendment, Mr.

Speaker, that has been passed time and time again,for Your Honour's info~mation, in terms of ruling in favour of the motion; it has be en placed time ~~d time again but possibly more fluently and more effectively this time . 114-~ - TULK : That is right. Never read like tha1: before. MR. SPEAKER (Ayl,>~ard) : I will adjourn the House for five minutes while I consider this. 596

May 17, 1982 Tape · 272 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) Order, please! I have reviewed the motion put forward by the han. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) and it is in order, and being an amendment to the Throne Speech it is considered to be a motion of non-confidence and the hon. member shall have another thirty minutes. SOHE HON . ME~1BFRS : Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: It is in order, Mr. Speaker, but very unwise. MR.

SPEAKER: According to Standing Orders, the Premier, the Leader of the Opposition, a minister moving a government order, R member replying thereto in@ediately after such minister, a member moving a motion of non-confidence and a minister replying thereto shall not speak for more than sixty minutes at any time in any debate. The hon. gentleman has spoken for thirty minutes now and he has another thirty. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I know Your Honour would not want to - AN HON. MEMBER: Are you questioning the Speaker? MR. NEARY: No, I am not questioning, I am just asking for direction from the Chair.

As Your Honour knows, the rule is that my hon. colleague was speaking on the main motion and he has sixty minutes over and above that.. If he moves a vote of non-confidence he has sixty minutes over and above that, and each member who speaks after can speak for two half-hour periods, one on the amendment and one on the main motion itself. My han. colleague can carry on, but I believe, Your Honour, if you would check with the table, he has an extra hour, one hour more. MR. SPEAKER: This point was questioned in the Speaker's Office when we were discussing this and 597

May 17, 1982 Tape 272 EC - 2 MR . SPEAKER (Ayhlard): it was recommended that the Speaker, as ruled on Page 17 of our Standing Orders 49 .(2) says that "a member moving a motion of non­ confidence and the Minister replying thereto, shall not speak for more than sixty minutes at a time in any debate'! and 'any' was underlined . Sixty minutes of any debate, so he has thirty - MR . NEARY: am .endrnent . MR. SPEAKER : That is sixty minutes on the It does not say sixty minutes, it says sixty minutes in any debate. MR. NEARY: Perhaps Your Honour '"ould like to take a fe~~ more minutes . It is very important . l1R .

SPEAKER: ~~e will allow the member for Terra Nova (Mr . Lush) to continue with his debate and I will have this checked as he is speaking . MR . LUSH: Thank you, r-tr . Speaker . 58B

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 273 IB-1 SOME liON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: As Mr. Speaker indicated 1 this is a vote of no confidence and we were very hesitant and very reluctant to do this because we want to clarify the situation, Mr. Speaker, we want to make things crystal clear here, that in view of the fact that the government just received an overwhelming mandate 'from the people of this Province on certain issues we want to name and identify and delineate these issues to make it crystal clear to hon. members and the people of this Province on what it is that we agree with the government. Mr.

Speaker, we agree with the government on the offshore issue. We agree with the government on that. I mentioned that earlier, Mr. Speaker. We agree with the government on that and we support them on that. Mr. Speaker, we agree with them on trying to reopen, re-negotiate the Upper Churchill contract. We agree with them on that, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSII: Thirdly, Mr. Speaker, let it be crystal clear, we agree with them on getting a corridor through Quebec. MR. NEARY: Right on! MR. LUSH: We agree with that, Mr. Speaker, a corridor for the transmission of hydro power. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: On these three issues, Mr. Speaker, let there be no mistake. Let there be no mistake, Mr. Speaker, that we agree on these issues. The government fought them in an election, Mr. Speaker. 'J'hey got a mandate from the people of this Province. And far be it !rom us to disagree but, Mr. Speaker, we agreed long before the government were given the mandate. We agreed long before this election on these three major 599

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 273 IB-2 MR. LUSH: issues. But, Mr. Speaker, very importantly,we do not think that the Province should be put on hold, Mr. Speaker, while these issues and while these developments are being initiated. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: We do not think that the Province shouJd be put on ho1d, Mr. Spcukcc. We do not think that the Province should close down. we do not G r' n

Muy 17, 1982 Tape No. 274 SD - l MR. LlJSlT: think the government should close its doors while these items are being negotiated. And that is why, Mr. Speaker, that is why the amendment. And though I have said, Mr. Speaker, we agree with the government on l!H.'SL' t hrcL: mo. jor· issues 1 it do(;s not necessarily follow that we agree with the approach by the government. For example, Mr. Speaker, we did not agree today with the approach by the hon. the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) to try and intimidate the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, we will not be intimiated, we will not be bamboozled, we are going to do our job, Mr. Speaker, as an Opposition. So we may not agree with the approaches - MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. LUSH: - but, Mr. Speaker, we agree with the policies. We agree with these three policies and we. ilr<' going to be supportive of the government, we are qoinq to be supportive, Mr. Speaker. SOMF liON. MEMBES: Oh, oh. MR. LUSH: But, Mr. Speaker, as I have said, we have come to a - Mr. Speaker, I can see it all, what the procedures are going to be in this session. MR. TULK: That is true. MR. LUSll: In this session, Mr.

Speaker, it is going to be a case of blaming everything on Ottawa all the way through, fed-bashing the whole way through. We iust have to take a look at the resolutions, Mr. Speaker, the resolutions for Private Members' Day, I do not know whether hon. members have taken a look at them but look at them, Mr. Speaker, 90 per cent of them- MR. NT-~1\RY: Every one of them. MR. LUSH: - 90 per cent of them and the han. the Opposition Leader (Mr. Neary) says, 'All of them'. And I have not looked at all of them but if he says all of them I will agree with him. MR. NEARY: All on the other side. 6L1

May 17, 1982, Tape No. 274 SD - 2 MR. LUSH: All of them are anti-Ottawa, anti- federal government. And, Mr. Speaker, that seems to be the approach. And there is a real method in this policy, Mr. Speaker MR. TULK: In this madness. MR. LUSH: - a real method to this and the idea of it, of course, is to take attention from what is really happening in this Province and to blame everything on Ottawa. It is just a smoke screen, Mr. SJleak~r. Nnw there is nobody on this side of the House naive enough to believe, Mr.

Speaker, that the federal government's input into this Province is not important,but certainly this provincial government have certain responsibilities and in man - fashion they should acknowledge what their responsibilities are. SOME HON. ME.MBERS : Right on. MR. LUSH: They should acknowledge what their responsibilities are instead of, Mr.

Speaker, shifting and laying the blame on the federal government to say that this Province must be put on hold, that nothing can happen in this Province anymore, nothing can happen in forestry, nothing can happen in agricullure, nothin~ can Ldkc pldcu with respect to the further development of the expansion of our traditional natural resources, Mr. Speaker, without, again, getting the offshore, getting revenues from that. And however long it takes to get that 1 we must sit back and wait and starve, Mr. Speaker, in the meantime.

We do not happen to be~ieve in that approach, we do not happen to believe in that policy. We have confidence in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, we have confidence in our oeople and we have confidence in the traditional resourc~ base of this Province and we believe that we can develop it until such time as the three items that I have talked ahout the government is trying to negotintc , we can ~cvt•lop Gu?

!<lay 17, 1982 Tape 275 Pk - 1 MR. LUSH : our natural resources to provide jobs and the standard of livinq that is acceptable and satisfactory to the people of our Province in the meanwhile . So, Mr . Speaker, that I hope clearly enunicates and articulates and delineates our position with respect to the Throne Speech . Mr. Speaker, as I sa id before, 1ve ackno1.,ledge the importance of the federal go vernm ent , but we also .realize that the provincial government have a responsibility . Mr . Speaker, over the past couple of years the pl:'ovincial government have reduced themselves to a municipality .

They may as lvel l have put a sign on the door and said 'Out of business . We are not here any more .· rom . TULK: Municipal. Government of Newfoundland . MR . LUSH : They have eroded, Mr . Speaker , the power , the authority and the influence of a provincial government . That is lvhat they have done . So much so now that our people do not expect anything from our government practically . They do not expect anything from them. It is a wise move,mind you, but it is not the reality of the situation. It is not the reality of the situation , ~\r .

Speaker . 'l'his provincial government clearly have a respon sibility in many areas of this Province , many areas which come under their ~irect control for the development of this Province . What about our forestry , Mr . Speaker? And before getting into that, Mr . Speaker , I just want to allude to some of the items in the Thro ne Speech to demonstrate what it is that I have been sayi ng , how they have been trying to slough off their total responsibility on the fede~al government . 6U3

t·1ay 17, 1982 Tape 275 PK - 2 MR. LUSH : Mr . Speaker, the Throne Speech starts off with "S ince my last addrcsz to this hen . House the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador have passed judgment on the perfor:l'lance and policies of my government" . Hr . Speaker, I think t.hat was taking great liberty Wl.th the results of the election SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . LUSH: - to say t~at the people of Newfoundland were passing a judgment on their performance . I would like to see this government go to the people on their performance and on t~eir record. Mr .

Speaker , that was not the issue in the election,and hen . members opposite know very well that that is certainly taking a great degree of liberty with the results of the election when \ole say that the p<'oplc- of this Province were passj ng a judqmcnt on l:hu.i• · !J~·• lc.11 m.uwv . Mr. Speaker, just to go th .rough a couple of points . Page 2 it says , talking about the new constitution, "The new constitution recognizes the importance of resour:::e management and control as the principal instrument of provincial policy" . S0?-1E HON . 1'-iE!>lBERS : Hear, hear! sue.

May 17, 1982 Tape No.276 NM - 1 MR. LUSII: Clearly, Mr. Speaker, again the suggestion, the suble suggestion is to imply that the federal government is preventing this Province from developing its 1·c'sources. There is no pi npointi n'l, there is no emphasizing of the resources to which they are referring, no pinpointing of the resources to which they are alluding., but Mr. Speaker, trying to give the impression that the federal government is responsible for the total development of all the resources in this Province, a misrepresentation to say the least, Mr. Speaker.

A misrepresentation of the facts to say that the Constitution recognizes the importance of resource management and control as the principle instrument of provincial policies. Sure, Mr. Speaker, that is the case,but the inference is that the federal government is preventing us from developing our natural resources in totality. Page three it says, "My government is extremely pleased that the new Constitution accepts and reaffirms provincial natural resource ownership and control." Again suggesting, Mr.

Speaker, that that always was not the case, assuming that that was not always the case 1 that the resources, the implication is,that the resources were owned by the federcll government., Clearly, Mr. Speaker, a misrepresentation of the reality of the situation and this is again a deliberate attempt, Mr. Speaker, a deliberate attempt to undermine the federal government, and by so doing to exonerate the provincial government for all its short comings and its failings. But, Mr. Speaker, that will not wash, that will not wash, Mr. Speaker. And look at the third paragraph, Mr. Speaker, on page three.

I am sure Your Honour will not agree with the inference and the implications in this paragraph. It says, "My Government has responded to the basic requirement to recapture control of our natural resources by taking bold initiatives in all sectors." Now, Mr. Speaker, we are going to 6 Li ~~

May 17, 1982 Tape No . 276 MR. LOSH: regain control of our natural resources by taking bold initiatives in all sectors not JUSt the offshore, not just the fisheries,but the forestry . They are going to recapture control of the forestry, of mining, recapture control of agriculture - I did no t know we had it lost, ~tr. Speaker, I did not know that we lost control of agr iculture. I knew the gov ernment was not doing anythin q about it, I knew that . so - 2 MR. NEARY: He thought it was the root ma qyot . MR. LOSB: I knew that. I did not know that we lost control of our forestry. I knew that the spruce bud\'IOrm was infesting it pretty badly 6i)6

May J7, 1982 Tape No. 277 MJ - l MR. T. LUSII: and it had practically won the battle but the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. C. Power) he has told me that he is winning the battle now. He mentioned that he is winning the battle. But, Mr. Speaker, note the implications, note the unsavory inferences. Note them, Mr. Speaker. My Government has responded to the basic requirement to recapture control of our natural resources by taking bold initiatives in all sectors, offshore, fisheries, forestry, mining, agriculture and hydo electricity.' Mr. Speaker, it was not good enough to identify the areas.

It was not good enough, Mr. Speaker, to be frank, it was not good enough to be candid but to give the implication to our people that this Province had no control of any of its resources. None~ And it is the big,bad federal government that controls all of that <J.Drl is pr·uvcntinq this Province from Jcveloping. What a cop- out, Mr. Speaker. What a cop-out. A cop-out, Mr. Speaker, of the highest order. So, Mr. Speaker, going through the whole bit you can see a deliberate attempt to lay blame on the federal government for the shortcomings and the failures of this provincial qoverment. MR. B.

TULK: They do not care where it is at as long as they have a scapegoat. MR. LUSH: Another line it said, ttr. Speaker, talking about how the Constitution embodies the principles of ownership to our resources but it says we thought we thought we were protected. 'We always thought we were protected by the RNA 1\ct, but,alas,in the terms of union this was not so. The federal government owned all our resources.' The federal government of today,however not the federal government of yesterday or fe deral governments past but the federal government of today. 607

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 277 MJ - 2 MR. TULK: Trudeau. MR. LUSH: 'However, have either lost sight of those sacred covenants or conscientiously chases to isrnore them. Mr. Speaker, the federal government has unilaterally declared that it has the right to control our offshore r~sources, and that is the only

part is currcct, Mr. Speaker. flut aqc~ i 11 the implication that they have authority and jurisdiction over all 6 G fl

May 17, 1982, Tape 278, Page l -- apb MR. LUSH: the resources of this Province, a deliberate attempt, Mr. Speaker, as I said before, to undermine the federal government and to exonerate the provincial government from any of its responsibilities in the development of our Province's natural resources. Mr. Speaker, if one wanted to read through the Throne Speech he would see that it is full of that kind of statement, too, as I said before, without belabouring the point, of blaming and putting responsibility on the federal government. Well, Mr.

Speaker .~ the notion put forward there, right throughout the Throne Speech is that we have come to a standstill, that this Province has come to an economic halt, and the agency responsible for it all is the federal government. The provincial government: 'Our hands are tied. Our hands are tied'. The problem is, Mr. Speaker, that they have become intellectually bankrupt. That is the problem, Mr. Speaker, they have become intellectually bankrupt in terms of developing this Province.

In terms of developing the resources of this Province, in terms of economic development for this Province, they have become intellectually bank- rupt~ no ideas, no innovative ideas, Mr. Speaker, to get this Province moving. Why, Mr. Speaker, when the oil comes and when we get the corridor across Quebec, we are not going to need any great administrators, we are not going to need any people with any great skill once the money starts coming. This is the time, Mr. Speaker, in our history when we need innovative ideas. 6l.d

May 14, 1982, Tape 278, Page 2 -- apb MR . T. LUSH : The oil is going to come . Regardless of v1hat the Pr emier and his colleagues do, the oil is going to come . And I would say that the demand for the corridor across Quebec is not going to lessen with our people. The people of our Province have seen the injustice in ~~at and, again, regardless of who is over there, that is going to have to be followed . And, Mr . Speaker, the contract : with the Upper Churchi 11, that. is goino.J to have to be renegotiated regardless of who sits on the other side, regardless . That is the attitude of the times, Mr . Spea ker . I am not suggesting either that the 61ll

May 17,1982 Tape No. 279 ah-1 MR.LUSll: Premier was not responsible for developing that kind of attitude among our people. I am not going to take away that credit from him. I am not going to take away that credit from him, Mr. Speaker, because I believe the Premier has done that. I believe the Premier has done that. But somebody has started the ball rolling and it wil] continue to roll and it will continue to roll until these things comes to a successful completion or successful fruition. They are not going to stop, Mr. Speaker. They are not going to stop.

And as I said, the Premier may have been the .one to start, to give the initial start to these itemF, he may have been the onr, but, Mr. Speaker, there is no stopping him and I have to give the hon.gentleman that credit. But there is no stopping now in these issues. So, Mr. Speaker, these are not the points with which we have difference with this government or these are not the points with which we find difference in this Throne Speech. Mr.

Speaker, it is the attitude, the defeatist attitude, the attitude of doing nothing in the interim , the attitude of doing nothing to provide a satisfactory or half decent standard of living for the ordinary people of this Province. The people, Mr.Speaker, who are frustrated, the people, Mr. Speaker, who do not know where to turn to put bread on the table tomorrow, the people without a job. And I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier feels for those people,and hon. members opposite,as much as I do. I am not the only person with any sensitivity.

I am not the only person with any sensitivity for the needs and the wants of our peale. I am not the only person concerned that our people should have a job. Mr. Speaker, the policies, the policies developed by this government 6 i ·1

May 17,1982 Tape No. 279 ah-2 MR.LUSH: show, the policies show that we are not getting anywhere, that we are not doing anything and we have not 61;'

May 17, 1982, Tape 280, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: done anything for a couple of years to imporve the lot, to improve the standard of living of the decent people of this Province. And they deserve more, Mr. Speaker, they deserve more. So, Mr. Speaker, we want to see in this session clearly outlined the programmes and the policies that this government is going to initiate to provide jobs for our people. We want to see the programmes and the policies that this government is going to initiate to get the construction industry moving.

I am sure the Premier must agree the five initiatives, the five ~Lcp that were announced in the Throne Speech are hardly the kind of measures that are going to get the construction industry moving in this Province. Mr. Speaker, the pre-tendering policy. Mind you Mr. Speaker, I do not disagree with them, Mr. Speaker, I do not disagree with them. Do not disagree with the- what is the terminology? The pre-tendering or getting the tendering out for public services, water and sewer and road construction earlier than we have in the past. Good policy, Mr. Speaker.

Nothing wrong with that, but hardly the kind of thing that is going to provide any employment for the people of this Province, hardly the kind of thing that is going to stimulate the economy. But, Mr. Speaker, I would remind the Premier, when he announced these in the Budget Speech, I would certainly welcome some of these in the district of Terra Nova. I would be remiss if I did not say ~~~t. I would welcome some. In the 6 1 3

May 17, 1982, Tape 280, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUSH: pre-tendering I do not have any so far, but I am not giving up hope. I do not think the Premier and the Government are going to deny the district of Terra Nova some water and sewer, some good drinking water, Mr. Speaker, an inalienable right to the people of this Province, to be provided with good drinking water. And I do not think the Premier and his government are going to deny the people of Terra Nova water and sewer.

I would not be surprised but the Minister of Municipal Affairs - she is writing now - I would not be surprised but that is some letters of approval to the various councils in the Terra Nova district, that they are going to get water and sewer. So, Mr. Speaker, we do not disagree with these initiatives, but they are hardly the kind of innovative ideas, the innovative programmes to which I have been referring, the kind of stimulative programmes that I have been asking the government to get underway. Mr. Speaker, I wonder could I have some pronouncement on how much time I have left? MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): Yes.

After checking precedents I find that the precedent is that the bon. member moving the amendment would have sixty minutes from the time that he moves the amendment. The bon. member has approximately thirty-five minutes remaining. MR. OTTENHEIMER: member yield for a moment? MR. LUSH: MR. OTTENHEIMER: Would the bon. Sure. Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the bon. gentleman for yielding. 6 jll

May 17, 1982 , Tape 280, Page 3 -- apb H R . O'I"I'ENIIJ:: fMP.H: In answer to a -·-· -- - ------ question from the Leader of the Opposition(Mr . Neary) today with respect to whether the Department of Justice had given legal advice to the Department of Finan ce with respect to borrowing from the sinking fund, I indicated that the Department of Justice had advised the Department of Finance that this was leg al . And in anS\ofer to a further question, whether that opinion \-las oral or .,.;ritten, I said that it •t~as oral. I have checked on lhe matter since and wish to give more complete information to the House .

There was oral opinion to Lhat effect, but there is also written opinion from the Department of Justice, from American counsel to 615

May 17, 1982 Tape 281 EC - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: the government and from the government's fiscal aCTcnts. In other words, apart from oral there was also written opinion with respect to the legality of borrowing from the sinking fund. MR. NEARY: Of course we will be able to get copies of these >vri tten opinions. MR. OTTENHEIMER: That is a matter which I would have to take under advisement. Rut there is a written opinion from the Department of Justice, from American counsel to the government, from the fiscal agents to the effect that it is legal for the government to borrow from the sinking fund.

I thank the hon. gentleman from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) for yielding as I wished to make complete information availuble to the House as soon as I was aware of it. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, as I have been saying, we do not necessarily subscribe to the notion that the federal government have to wash their hands of this Province by no way. l\nd, Mr. Speaker, I think I have demonstrated that in my Private Member's resolution . I have never been the one, Mr. Speaker, to make political points on that issue.

My Private Member's resolution states that in trying to develop the resources of this Province, I huve asked for joint co-operation between the federal government and the provincial government. Mr. Speaker, I have been spokesman on Labour and Manpower for three or four years. Practically every time that I have made any kind of reference to the unemployment situation in this Province I have always practically invariably GJ6

May 17, 1982 Tape 281 EC - 2 MIL !.USH : referred to the re!>ponsibi li ty of the £ederal government in this matter . But, Mr . Speaker, what I fi nd offensive, what r find abhorrent is the total abdication by this government of any responsibility related to the economic development o£ this Province, the total abdication of responsibility, the continuous effort by the government, t-1'r. Speaker, t:.o blame every ­ thing on Ottawa . That has bea~ my bone of contention, if you V.1ill, w.ith th.is provincial government . Clearly, this provincial government has responsibilities in the 617

May 17, 1982 Tape 282 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: areas of forestry, mining, agriculture, and tourism. The provincial government spoke about tourism in the Throne Speech. It spoke of its confidence in the tour~st industry in Newfoundland, spoke c highly of the potential of tourism in this Province. But, Mr. Speaker, it would appear aqain that any development in this area is contingent upon revenue from the offshore oil and gas. ;··.ny de velopment in tourism is, of course ,as is an y development in any other of the resources, contingent upon revenue from the offshore. So, Mr.

Speaker, one must find - Newfoundlanders and Lab~adorians must wonder what their fate is going to be while they are waiting for the revenue to come to this Province from the offshore oil and gas. They are wondering what their fate is going to be. What is going to happen to the unemployed people in the Terra Nova district, the unemployed people in Fogo district, the unemployed people right throughout this Provinc e, the identified 36,000? I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that they are going to be happy and contented to wait ten and twelve and fifteen years., And is that what the Premier is saying?

Maybe we are misunderstanding the Premier. But I clearly remember watching the Premier on television during the election,in a certain district. I do not know what district it was, but he reluctantly went over a gravel road, a muddy road, a road full of potholes. I thouyht it was Terra Nova district , but I learned after that it was not. I forget which district it was, maybe the Premier can tell me. ~ would like to know which district it was. The road that he went over reluctantly - MR. TULK: Fortune-llcr.mi taqc, w;1s i I? 6 ltl

May 17, 1982 Tape No . 282 TM - 2 l.ffi. LUSH : Fortune, was it? Fortune-Hermitage? PREt-liER PECKFORD: I did not go over any roads reluctantly. MR. NEARY : In ~vhi te Bay South, from Jackson's Arm to Sops 1\rm . MR . LUSH : Anyway,he went over the road- well, if that is offensive to the Premier, I will take out the word reluctantly . The Premier went over a road, a gravel road, wil lingly, gladly. Gladly - f-IR. TULK : What road was it? PRE:-1IER PECK FORD : English Barbour East . MR . LUSH: - ecstaticly . English Barbour \vest . East, I am sorry , English Harbour East . Re went over the road there . MR .

TULK : He went reluctantly, that is for sure . ~IR. LUS!l : It was interesting what he told the people, and my recollection of that interview, the Premier, Lh.1 t niqht on television, because I - MR. TULK : You thought it was reluctant. MR . LUSH: Well , I thought so yes, but his answer I found - PREMIER PECKFORD: He thought wrong as he did about the election results . MR. LUSH : His answer I thought most interesting because I was looking forward to getting the roads paved in the Terra Nova district . But the people got their answer that night .

The Premier said in order to pave these roads , he needed the revenue from the offshore oil and gas . In fact, and I do not think 1 am not quoting the Premier incorrectly, T do not believe - PIU:MIER PECKFORD : They only carried part of the speech . The hon . member really wanted to hear the answers to his questions . 6H

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 283 MJ - 1 MR.T. LUSH Well, that is all I heard, I could not say what they did not carry. I did not know what they clid not curry. FREMIER PECKFORD What was said was we ne~ll <:J.(Jditiono.J and there are a number of resources from which those reveneues can come. One of them is the offshore oil and qas. MR. LUSH I clearly read into the Pr0mj0rs remarks that we had to wait, Mr. Speaker, the people of the English Harbour had to wait for some revenues from the offshore oil and gas to get their roads reconstructed, upgraded, paved whatever it was that they were looking for.

I am sure they wanted their roads paved so we just sat back in Terra Nova knowing that we / have to wait a long time. But, Mr. Speaker, the Premier is sayinq that that was not the case. I am glad that wa~ not the case, Mr. Speaker, because the people of this province cannot iust sit back and wajt r1Jl(l wail for- J"('\I('J1l!Cti It> ('llllll' I lOIII lht• <>II"!;!J<>I"!' oil and gas, they want action now. They want immediate action, M1·. Speaker, they want action that's going to stimulate the economy now.

The Premier, I believe said again in the Throne Speech that the Government was going to take action that was goin9 to stimulate the economy. Now, Mr. Speaker, maybe that is so, maybe that is so. We will have to wait and see. There is certainly no indication of this kind of action, certainly no jndication in the most nebulous form, Mr. Speaker, no indication at all, or no indication of what the Premiers going to do or what the Government is qoing to do to stimulate the economy. Now, Mr. Speaker, I realize that the Throne Speech doesn't give that kind of detail. I realize that.

I realize that the Throne Speech is not a statement like the State of the Union Address given by the President of the United States. I realize it's not that kind of a detailed document, T realize that it just gives the general intention of the Gouvernment. I realize that, Mr. Speaker. But still within these general intentions, one would have thought there would have been some reference to, if you will, the general approaches of the government 62!1

May J7, ) 982 Tape No. 284 IB-1 MR. LUSH: to stimulate the economy. The only thing specific mentioned in the Throne Speech was the Five Point Plan, the five steps that the government was going to take. Included - I named a couple of them - was the pre-tendering of roads and water and sewer systems and some other references there to building lots. Ron. members are f~miliar with the five items. And I have gone through these to indicate that hon. members certainly do not believe that these are the kinds of measures that we need to stimulate the economy of this Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion I do not intend to take up my full hour, I just simply wanted to make a fe\,r points and introduce my amendment, if you will. In cluing up I know that the hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) is just over there itching, Mr. Spc~kcr, to qet on his feet to talk about, again, how important it is for the federal government to take certain initiatives to get this Province moving. I know that the hon. member is going to say that. I can give his speech now.

Probably not as fluently, probably not as effectively but in terms of its ideas and its concepts, r can now tell hon. members what he is going to say, Mr. Speakerr that we need the federal government. If the federal government would only adopt the programme that he suggested for long--term jobs that he referred to here a couple of days ago, if that had only been adopted by the federal government,these initiatives,then,Mr. Speaker, it ~ould be a different picture today. I can hear the hon. member now and I can hear hon. members talking about, you know, how we do not support them on these three initiatives.

But, Mr. Speaker, we do support them. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: But, Mr. Speaker, as I have said,the point must be made that we cannot accept 6 2 'j

May 17, 1982 Tape No . 284 IB-2 MR . LUSH : this continuous laying blame on the federal government for the lack of pcr( orm<Jncc on bcha 1 r or Lh <· pJ:ovinci ~tl IJ UV\ !l"lllllC'Ill . 1\n .t, I'll·. Speaker, the point must be made again - and this must say something - that in Newfoundland we have the highest unemployment rate in Canada . Certainly, Mr. Speaker, the needs of Nova Scotia, the needs of New Brunswick a.nd the needs of P. E. I. are certainly similiar to the needs of this Province . There must be similiarities in their econ om ies somewhe re alonq the linn of these three Maritime Provinces .

I have al\vays been under the impression, Mr . Speaker, that the Atlantic Provinces had much in common . But why is it then, ~x . Speaker, that our provincial gove rnment cannot do better 62?

MAY 17, 1982 Tape No . 285 PS- 1 HR . WSIJ in terms of raisinq the level of 11mploym\!I1L in this province"? Why is it that \o/C ure four percentage points higher than the highest province in the Atlantic Region? Why is it that our unemployment rate is higher, is constantly higher than Ne\~ Bruns\vick? Why is it that it is constantly higher than Nova Scotia? \vhy is it that is is constantly higher than P.C.I.? Hon . members lvill notice I make no reference to Oncario, I ma)<e no reference to Quebec . Mr .

Speaker, I make refere .n:ce to these At.lantic Provinces 1'7hich I have been led to believe have similar economies to the province of Nelvfoundland . So, Mr . Speaker , that must say something, that must say something . MR . STAGG: You are getting yourself upset . MR . LtJSII : Mr . Speaker, I am not going to be npset !>y UlC' patt<:'ri.nC] nnd I' he nattc-rimr and the sobre rattl inq of the membe-r for.: Stephenville . lie can corry on all he likes, Mr . Speaker . The prating and the prattling and the saber rattling, Mr . Speaker. MR . STAGG You talked about me on the 31st - MR .

TULK: That ' s the reason why all you got IoTas a parliamentary assistant's job . MR. STAGG - and Ottawa being (inaudible) . MR. TULK You cannot do •anything with your brain , just your mouth . ~\R . S~AGC : I dare you to deal with it . MR . TULK: Deal \oJith 111hat? tlsR . ST1\GG: Deal with that . MR . LUSI:l: Nhat? MH. S'l'/\GG: You arc talkin~ about unemployment, deal with that issue (inaudi ble) HR . HISCOCK: Never mind, I 1'7ill look after that . I got the - MR . STAGG: - LeBlanc gave the Russians last year . 'l'c;-.1.1 us .1bout t· hnL MR. TULK : You fellovls do not mina so much - 6 2 .1

May 17, 1982 , Tape 285, Page 2 -- PS MR . STAGG : Come on . NR . LUSH : Mr . Speaker, that is a great thing to deal loJi th , it is a qame . MR . STAGG : It is a red herring, is it? MR . LUSH : It is a game, ~tr . Speaker, it is sloughing off responsibility. SOME liON . ~tEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . LUSH : No one on this side, Hr . Speaker, agrees with that . Nobody agrees with it . ~e do not agree 1·1ith it . But, Hr . Speaker, it is an abdication of responsibility again . It is an abdicat:ion, a complete abdication of responsibility . Only going after the federal government shows that hon . members opposite have no \•lill power, Mr . Speaker, no political \v.ill . 6 2 lt

May 17, 1982 Tape 286 JC - 1 MR. T. LUSH: Governinq this province means more tl10.n that, means more than that, Mr. Speaker. Let the government show 11s, Mr. Speaker, let them show us their ini tia ti ve, let them show us tl1eic creativity. Let them show us their initiative, Mr. Speaker their creativity and innovativeness. So, Mr. Speaker, let them showus, let hon. members opposite show us their creativity, let them show us their originality in getting the economy of this province moving. Let them sho~ us some new programmes, Mr. Speaker. We will support them on those issues of the establishment of quotas.

Yes, we will support them on that. MR. TULK: No problem MR. T. LUSH: No problem, Mr. Speaker MR. TULK: The Liberal Party (inaud). MR. 'l'. LUSH: But has the minister, has the Premier, have all the ministers lost confidence- MR. TULK: We got a good party today- MIL 'I'. J.ll~]ll: -lo!;t confidencl: in the viability of the natural resources of this province, the traditional natural resources? Maybe the forestry is gone. Maybe there is something they are not telling us. Maybe it is all spruce bud worm infested. Maybe there is no future in forestry, maybe there is not. Tell us! Tell us!

Maybe there is nothing we can do to promote the small sawmill industry in this province. ~1aybe there is nothing we can do to support the one hundred and fifty small sawmill operators throughout the province. Maybe there is nothing we can do. MP.. TULJ<: That is what they want us to believe. I refuse to believe that. I refuse to believe that. ~m. T. LUSH: A hundred and fifty or two hundred? There are a hundred and fifty in my own district, but there is- MIL 'l'lJ Ll\: The minister believes that. MR. T. LUSH: -there is a-what shall I say? That needs to be qualified. There are one hundred and fifty licences 625

May 17, 1982 MR. T. LUSH: Tape 286 JC -2 but I do not think we can call them , one hundred and fifty small sawmill operators. I am talking about bona fide, small sa~~ill operotors. So, Loo thC' c nothing we con do for these pcoplc·~ Is LlJCJ c nothi lllJ wv c.JI\ d" to promote that industry in this province< Is th0re nothing furthe1 we can do to promote agriculture in this province? Are we getting maximum performance from these industries? Are we gettin g maximum performance? MR. TULK: There is nothing wrong wi th th· Agricultural Minister now. 626

May 17, 1982 Tape No . 287 IB-1 MIL 1.11~; II: Ar•• WC' lfCtl.i.nq m.1ximum performance from the Forestry and from Agriculture, ~1r. Speaker? I know the potential in my ow-n district, two major industries in my own district , two major resources in my own district , forestry and agriculture , und, t-1r . Speaker, it hurts me to knotoJ that both industries are not performing the 'Y1ay that they should . Agriculture, Mr . Speaker , is declining , the production is declining . I do not know if the minister responsible knows why . I do not kno\.; il he has met t-.rith the farmers to talk about it .

I do not know why . Some of the best agricultural land in the Province . And what has that qot to do wiLJ'> -Jcvclop.i.ng the agricultural land in Newfoundland• \olhut ha~ that got to do with the offshore oil and gas? l·lhat "'il'i it got to do with it? MR. ~EARY: They are getting ninety cents of every dollar from Otta\"a to do it and are not spending it . MR . LUSII : !3u t, Mr . Speaker - MR . TULK : around . MR. LUSII : They have wasted it driving - there is one area in which this gover nment has a lot of creativity .

There is one area in which this government has a lot of originality with respect to creating jobs . MR. NEl\RY : Hak ing appointments , yes . MR . LUSH : Making appoin tments , Mr . Speaker . I believe they made four today . MR. NEARY : That is right . MR. LUSH : Four today , Mr . Speaker, four parliamentary assista .nts today . That make s a total of five now , is it? MR . NEARY : That is right . '\R . LUSH : Five parliamentary assistants and eighteen Cabinet Minist ers, Mr . Speaker . That is 627

May 17, 1982 Tape No . 287 IB -2 MR . LUSH : economi zin g. That is pulling in the belt . That is retrenchment, Mr . Speaker . Eighteen Cabinet Ministers, five parliamentary ass istants for a total of twenty-three . Counting the Speaker there arc twenty-four . Counting the Deputy Speaker, twenty-five. Counting the Chairman of Committees that is tt.1enty-six. Counting the Party h'hip that is twenty-seven, twenty-seven ?aid positions in addition, Mr . Speaker, to the forty-four . So, Mr . Speaker, that is creating jobs . ! suppose there will be some more commissions set up in the next couple of weeks . But, Mr .

Speaker, I want to wrap up my few remarks by saying again that I want to make it crystal clear that we on this side of the House support the government in their major initiatives on whicr they recei vee : 620

~ May 17, 1982 Tape No. 288 RA -1 MR. LUSH: a mandate from the people of this Province. MR. TULK: The member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) was supposed to be a minister 'Brian". MR. PATTERSON: offshore resource development, a corridor through Quebec and the opening up of the Upper Churchill contract,the renegotiating of the contract,what- ever the terminology is. But, Mr.

Speaker, we are not a- b0ul to let this qovcrnmcnt, to let this Provincial Govern- ment escape from its responsibilities, its task to develop this Province, to develop its natural resources, to provide jobs for our . people, to provide jobs for our people, Mr. Speaker. That is our concern. That is our concern, Mr. Speaker, that this government is goinq to sit back for the next little while,still blaming the lack of development on Ottawa, as if they had no responsibility whatsoever in the development of this Province. MR. CARTER: Very borina. MR. LUSH: I can . understand why I am boring to the hon. member for St.

John's North (Mr. Carter), he does not understand Newfoundland enough to know what I am talking ~bout, Mr. Speaker. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: You tell him. We were telling him that all last Winter and took him around a bit. MR. LUSH: I can understand that, Mr. Speaker. But that is where we stand, Mr. Speaker, that is where we stand. We want to see this government getting down to brass tacks and developing the natural resources of this Province which fall under their jurisdiction.

That is not to say that we do not expect some financial incentives from the federal government,which they have been doing, Mr. Speaker, which they have been doing. I do not know the figure on the qrants they we have been getting from Ottawa for agriculture, 629

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 288 RA-2 ~~-LUSH: but I know it has been rather sub- stantial. I do not knO\-f the amount of money that vie have been getting for the forestry in this Province from the federal government, but I know it has been substantial. So 1-fhat is the reason, Mr. Speaker? It is not because they have not been getting sufficient monies to develop these. Why do 1ve now have to put everything on hold and wuit foe Lhc development and wait for the revenues to come from offshore oil and gas'2 That is the question, Mr. Speaker.

Rnd are we to sit down here in this House and just go on again for another two months of nothing, Mr. Speaker, but fed bashing? !.s that what vte are to expect jn this hon. House or arc members going to qet dovm to brass tacks and develop what we have, v1hat is under our control, to the best of our ability·.>' That is the question, Mr. Speaker, and I thank you very much. SOME HON. ~1EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(McNicholas) The hon. member for Burin -Placentia West. HR. G.

TOBIN: Mr.Speaker,after listening to such a luscinus speech may I say that I have come to the conclusion that anything you 1-rant to say to this House must be relative. First,may I 6311

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 289 IB-1 MR. TOBIN: start off by saying I congratulate the member for Lewisporte (Mr. Russell) on his election as Speaker, and also my colleague from Kilbride (Mr. Aylward) on his election as Deputy Speaker and,to you, on your election as Chairman of Committees. I would also like to congratulate my good friend and colleague from St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr.

Hearn) who represents that great district, and,may I be permitted to say, that great town of Trepassey where I was born and so proudly lived for the first twenty-odd years of my life, on his excellent speech on moving the motion for the Address in Reply. And I believe, Mr. Speaker, that it is quite evident, Sir, that he will give his district the type of representation that it deserves. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. '1'013 IN: To my hon. colleague from Twillingate (Mrs. Reid) who seconded the motion my sincere congratulations.

And I am sure that she left no doubt in unyone's mind as to the type of representation the district of Twillingate will receive. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. 'l'013IN: To the Premier, my leader, r commend on him on his astounding victory at the polls and I am indeed proud to be part of this great team. And I thank him for the support and help that he gave me in getting elected to this hon. House and I look forward to his guidance and assistance as I go forward to represent the qrcat and historic district of Burin-Placentia West. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

TOBIN: May I also commend all hon. members on their election to the House. And,as a new member, let me say that I look forward to the 1 hopefully 1 good example that you will set for me and other new members in this House. 631

May 17, 1982 Tape No . 289 IB -2 MR . TOBIN: Mr . Speaker , in the beginning I was asked if I would lead off our debate on the Speech from the Th ro ne and now r sec th~t I am into speaking on the amendment to the Speech from the Throne . Anc, as I look at this here, and I am not th~t familiar with the rules and the regulations of the House , however,! believe that this is a vote of non -confidence in the government . And I believe that if I did vote for it the government ~o~ould probably be defeated . Well, Sir, that wou ld mean an election .

I \·lill vote a<;ainst this amendment because I believe that an election could be a bad thing right now. becau se I believe th at every Parliament in Canada has the right to an Opposition . And after what happe:~ed on April 6th, \-lhere we turned around districts that had in excess of 2,000 m~iority in 1979,w0 can only imaqine what coulcl h.lpp~n lo cli.:.;lril:ts which now sit with a major ity of forty -one votes . SOM E HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . TOBIN : Mr .

Speaker, as I get into the Speech from the Throne I am particularly happy , Sir, that this government will indeed commence the planning for the new hospital to serve the people of the Burin Penin sula G32

May 1 7, J 982 Tape No. 290 MLeP 1 MR.G. 'l'OBTN this year, this facility, Sir, is budly needed, and I know the people of my district welcomes this rwws. 1\nd it is this type of commitment, this type of leadership by this Government that has caused the people of Newfoundland to once aqain start believing in Governments. The people of my distr ict demonstrated that very much in my election, and, Sir, 1 certainly would like to thank the people from Burin Placentia \'!,·,~t f<lt thl~ vote nr conrinf'ncf' they have placed in me.

I can assure them that I will give them the type of representation that they deserve, and by doing that I will work to the best of my ability to ensure that the district is well representee and receives a fair share. SOME HON. MEMBERS Hear, hear ! MR. 'rOBI N Mr.Speaker, my district, like many other districts in this province, has needs.

Now let me start off by qoinq into Monkstown where, through the efforts of conservative qovernment since nineteen and seventy twQ, and through the efforts of my colleague from Mount Scio who once represented the District of Placentia West, they qave these oeople the great Freedom from isolation. Yet, Mr. Speaker,this road should be l"ut H1c1 upqradcd <lnd >.>aved. 'J'he isolated communities in my district, Petit Forte, Southeast Bight and Little Paradise are now being discriminated against in the highest respect, or the highest reqard by Transport Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS Hear, hear !

MR. '1'013 fN For in excess, Mr. Speaker, of eight decades, these communities had contact to Argentia on the East side of Placentia Bay and Marystown on the West side, and I would like to make it clear that they deserve no less. And I hope, Sir, that through their efforts, the efforts of these people who just caused Transport Canada to delay for one yc~r the determination'of service to 1\rgentia, and G 3 .:;,

May 17, 1982 Tape No. 291 RA - l MR. G. TOBIN: yet see fit,Sir, to terminate on Thursday past the contract these people had with the Burin Peninsula, I hope that these people and others can im- press upon the =ederal government the importance for them to revert back to the system which existed in Placentia Bay for decades. And I also hope,Sir, that the day will come when these communities, like Monkstown, will be freed from isolation. Mr. Speaker, as I move through my district roads are certainly one of the greatest needs.

We have Brookside, Boat Harbour, BaineHarbour, Parkers Cove, Rush- oon; all need roads upgraded, paved and in some cases re­ surfaced. And Sir, on I can go to Red Harbour,Jean de Baic, Spanish Room, Rock Harbour and see the need for road im­ provements. However, Sir, I would like to make it very clear that I have met with the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). He is very much aware of the conditions of the roads but very sympathetic to the cause. And I am