role="main" class="main-container container js-quickedit-main-content" id="main-content">

October 19, 2017

41st Parliament, 2nd Session

< Previous sitting day

Next sitting day >

Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2017-Oct-19 (PDF)

L107 - Thu 19 Oct 2017 / Jeu 19 oct 2017

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Thursday 19 October 2017 Jeudi 19 octobre 2017

Orders of the Day

Strengthening Protection for Ontario Consumers Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur le renforcement de la protection des consommateurs ontariens

Introduction of Visitors

Legislation in Quebec / Mesure législative au Québec

Report, Financial Accountability Officer

Oral Questions

Government accountability

Government accountability

Government accountability

Government accountability

Fiscal accountability

Air quality

Relations avec les autochtones / Indigenous relations

Cancer treatment

Environmental protection

Local Government Week

Services for persons with developmental disabilities

Workers’ compensation

Economic development

Private members’ public business

Visitors

Notice of dissatisfaction

Introduction of Visitors

Members’ Statements

Victim services

Access to justice

Gord Downie

Youth community hubs

Agriculture industry in Essex

International Mental Health Day

Empty Bowls

Muddy York Brewing Co.

Waste Reduction Week

Introduction of Bills

Child Abuse Prevention Month Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur le Mois de la prévention des mauvais traitements infligés aux enfants

Petitions

Hospital funding

Pharmacare

Dental care

Road safety

Soins de longue durée

Elevator maintenance

Hydro rates

Bruce Power

Driver licences

Private Members’ Public Business

Insurance Amendment Act (Life Settlements), 2017 / Loi de 2017 modifiant la

Loi sur les assurances (rachats de polices d’assurance-vie)

Fairness in Consumer Reporting Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur l’équité dans l’application de la

Loi sur les renseignements concernant le consommateur

Putting Your Best Foot Forward Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 pour partir du bon pied

Insurance Amendment Act (Life Settlements), 2017 / Loi de 2017 modifiant la

Loi sur les assurances (rachats de polices d’assurance-vie)

Fairness in Consumer Reporting Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur l’équité dans l’application de la

Loi sur les renseignements concernant le consommateur

Putting Your Best Foot Forward Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 pour partir du bon pied

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

Orders of the Day

Strengthening Protection for Ontario Consumers Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur le renforcement de la protection des consommateurs ontariens

Resuming the debate adjourned on October 17, 2017, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 166,

An Act to amend or repeal various Acts and to enact three new Acts with respect to the construction of new homes and ticket sales for events / Projet de loi 166, Loi modifiant ou abrogeant diverses lois et édictant trois nouvelles lois en ce qui concerne la construction de logements neufs et la vente de billets d’événements.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Mr. Jim McDonell: I’m honoured to rise today on behalf of the residents of Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry to speak to Bill 166, the Strengthening Protection for Ontario Consumers Act. At long last, reform of the Tarion Corp. and new home warranties in Ontario comes to this Legislature. Ever since my election in 2011 and my first appointment as critic to consumer services, I’ve heard many individuals and groups who related their ongoing gripes with Tarion and highlighted the challenges faced by ordinary Ontarians when trying to enforce what many of us would consider a basic requirement of buying a home in Ontario: buying one that is well built, safe and the one the buyers want.

For most of us, our home will be our life’s largest investment. In the GTA, acquiring a place to call home can easily entail committing more than 10 years’ worth of an individual’s gross wages to the transaction. When we factor in other expenses, such as taxes, utilities and the cost of day-to-day life, our home becomes an asset around which much of our current and future net worth revolves.

Defects compromise not just homes and their value, but compromise an entire family’s future. Ontarians don’t only need to contend with Tarion and with the builder to see that their investment is safeguarded, they must keep their timely payments on a mortgage, whose value probably exceeds that of the defective house. This isn’t a situation any family would want to find themselves in.

Construction gauges our economy. When builders build, it is a sign of confidence in future growth and prosperity. Through obligations and programs such as the building code and new home warranties, the government seeks to ensure that the construction doesn’t happen just for construction’s sake, and aims to enforce a consistent, minimum standard of safety and suitability for habitation.

Consumers and experts have known for a long time that this enforcement role should not be combined with that of the builder, yet that’s exactly how Tarion has worked. Consumers have demanded a better system for years, asking for a regulatory framework where they could trust the arbitrators and resolve their disputes efficiently. When the government finally took the initiative and ordered a review be conducted by Justice Cunningham, many breathed a sigh of relief.

Before I continue, I would like to point out some of the concerns raised by those who participated in the consultations with Justice Cunningham. Many consumers were uncertain as to how their participation in the consultation, whether through a written submission or the oral presentations made at one of the round tables, would impact their current disputes with Tarion, some of which had reached the tribunal level.

The unfortunate reality for many Ontarians is that they do not need to develop an in-depth knowledge of a system such as Tarion and home warranties until an issue arises and they hit a wall. While the justice was thorough and accommodating of numerous individual needs, we should keep in mind that many individuals who had witnessed those less-than-desirable characteristics of a new home warranty framework in Ontario may have been deterred from providing feedback.

I attended one of the justice’s round table consultations in Toronto as an observer and I was surprised by the small number of individuals present. This was not an isolated incident. Consumers who got in touch with my office reported low attendance at other public consultations held throughout the province.

The climate was such that consumers who had legitimate grievances about the system’s workings were concerned about the possible negative consequences and outcomes in their disputes with Tarion if they voiced them, leading to more legal expenses, a devaluation of their home or the loss of the home altogether if the defects rendered it uninhabitable. How could such a concern even be conceivable in the province of Ontario?

We have an expectation of fairness and impartiality in our dispute resolution system, whether through the courts or through alternative means. As Justice Cunningham said in his report, the multiple functions carried out by Tarion made conflicting priorities possible within the organization. It acts as a regulator for the building industry, as the monopoly warranty provider and as the arbitrator in disputes between the builder and the consumer. It created a situation where the judge could be thought to have an interest in the case’s outcome, a situation Justice Cunningham recommended we resolve by removing some duties from Tarion and keeping it just as the regulator for the industry.

The justice, however, did not simply recommend splitting one monopoly into two agencies. Recommendation number 1 from the report highlighted that Ontario should follow the model already used internationally and in provinces such as Alberta, British Columbia and Saskatchewan, where new home warranties were offered in a competitive market.

In this bill, we see the current act governing Tarion repealed and substituted with two acts establishing just two authorities but continuing the new home warranty plan and mandating that new homes be registered with it. The mandatory nature of the new home enrolment makes competition in new home warranty provision impossible, as it makes no sense for builders to pay twice for the same insurance product: once to the warranty authority and once to a private insurer.

Competition in a market with set and enforced minimum standards is a good thing. Competing for the same customer base encourages providers to enhance their product, reduce their price or improve their service, or all of the above. This happens on a daily basis in other businesses and there is no reason to assume consumers would not be well served by a well-regulated, competitive new home warranty marketplace.

Earlier this year, I wrote to the minister highlighting that, as legislators, we can give the government many options to implement legislation gradually without having to come to the House every time. Gradual implementation of the justice’s recommendations can be achieved by proclaiming new acts or new sections as key stakeholders become ready to transition to the new regulatory framework. What we see in this bill instead is the creation of a new warranty monopoly without the corresponding future ability to create a competitive warranty market.

The government is also continuing the current system under which the warranty of a new home is not an insurance product subject to strict oversight and control by financial oversight bodies, but an assurance from the builder to the buyer.

This goes against Justice Cunningham’s recommendation number 3 which explicitly stated that new home warranties should be an insurance product. This definition change could bring many benefits. First and foremost, providers of insurance are subject to much stricter oversight standards than conventional delegated authorities are. The ministry’s model for delegated authorities changed in recent years with the routine introduction of Auditor General oversight into legislation. However, this is a far cry from the level of oversight exercised over insurance providers.

Here’s Justice Cunningham’s list from his report:

“—requirements for minimum capital;

“—corporate governance rules;

“—investment restrictions;

“—reporting requirements to a designated statistical agency and to the Superintendent of Financial Services ...;

“—obligation to refrain from defined unfair and deceptive practices;

“—requirement to contribute to a compensation association that compensates policyholders who suffer loss when an insurer becomes insolvent; and

“—obligations to comply with various requirements regarding the insurance policy and the handling of claims;”

—a mandatory complaint process; and

—lastly, dispute resolution through the Financial Services Commission of Ontario and the General Insurance OmbudService.

Tarion, as it is today, has an internal ombudsman tasked with resolving complaints arising from the handling of consumer claims against their builders. It may be better than nothing, but it does not provide the same level of independent oversight as the Ombudsman of Ontario, FSCO or the General Insurance OmbudService can provide.

We are disappointed that the government has not considered all the recommendations of the Cunningham report. There is little to no need to create new products or craft brand new legislative frameworks. Providers of new home insurance in those provinces with a competitive marketplace have expressed interest in serving Ontarians and making their products available to them. Clearly, there is an appetite among consumers and among potential, regulated and accountable providers for change which, to date, this government has not delivered.

Throughout the Tarion review and the nine years that led to it, consumers have complained both openly and in confidence about the procedures in place for making a claim with Tarion and resolving it through the administrative and legal means. In particular, stakeholders highlighted the need to reduce the cost and time commitment required to resolve a complaint in a definitive manner.

Justice Cunningham’s report contains several recommendations concerning the dispute resolution process. He documented consumers’ concerns with the current system effectively and extensively, noting how the involvement with a monopoly regulator and the warranty provider caused a perception of an inequitable process.

Moreover, adjudication by an independent body would help deliver a fresh look at warranty claim disputes that the consumer and the warranty provider have not been able to resolve. A fresh-look component is important. By the time the dispute reaches adjudication, both the consumer and the warranty provider have formed significantly entrenched opinions regarding the claim and the facts presented therein. Independent and impartial review helps bring an objective perspective to what can be today instead a greatly contentious process.

In recommendations 20 and 21, Justice Cunningham highlighted that any alternative or complementary dispute resolution process implemented under these new provisions should coexist with—not substitute itself to—existing homeowners’ rights to sue and pursue appeals through our court system.

The courts also guarantee a certain standard and an array of remedies that are available to consumers in the case of a victory. I am pleased to see that the government has explicitly guaranteed the explicit continuation of existing remedies in

section 52(18), although they gave themselves the power to affect these existing remedies by regulation.

This is not an approach we can agree with. Ontarians have the rightful expectation to be able to take an issue to court or a tribunal or an adjudicator, and to have access to these remedies that will resolve the issue completely. If and when this right is to be taken away, and the remedies available to consumers against the warranty provider or the builder are to be restricted, such a provision should come to the floor of this House for a full debate and examination. Giving the minister the power to unilaterally remove remedies is far too big a step.

Regulation is an effective tool for clarifying details that are either too cumbersome to put in legislation or that are subject to frequent change and would grind this House to a halt if they were to be approved in their new form in three readings every time they were to be altered. The building code is an example of such a regulation, as are electrical and technical safety standards. They all have a common thread uniting them: any reasonable person in Ontario would expect some form of regulation to exist in that sector. The public might not know what the regulation says, but they know that a regulation probably exists.

There is no reason for any Ontarian to expect that their right to a certain level of compensation or a certain standard of performance has been taken away.

There is little awareness among Ontarians of the difference between legislation and regulation, or of the fact that regulations do not go through the House but are approved at the ministry level and come into force when they are filed electronically and displayed on e-Laws, a resource most Ontarians might not know exists.

To give the government a blanket power to remove or limit the existing remedies, including potentially those previously awarded in other disputes, does not serve either the cause of fairness or that of transparency.

Dispute resolution was clearly a sore point for many consumers and other stakeholders who came to Justice Cunningham with feedback. More than a quarter of the recommendations of this report—nine of the 37 total—address issues that arise when a consumer and the warranty provider disagree over a claim.

Here are some of the issues he addressed:

—independent, neutral and accessible process;

—review of decisions of the independent adjudicator;

—the right to sue;

—the role of a warranty provider in dispute resolution;

—flexible and accessible process;

—the costs of the adjudication;

—onus of proof;

—the use of experts; and

—self-represented litigants.

I would like to touch on some of these recommendations before continuing.

Access to justice, whether it comes in the form of court action, administrative tribunals or some form of alternative dispute resolution, relies on some key principles, among which are clear rules, clear standards of evidence, and affordability.

For many homeowners, the current state of affairs made appeals against warranty decisions prohibitively expensive, and therefore potentially deterred legitimate claims from proceeding to a rightful appeal.

Justice Cunningham pointed out that consumers today face a significant burden of costs associated with pursuing a warranty claim through the process, including at the Licence Appeal Tribunal.

Firstly, navigating the system with any degree of certainty requires specialized knowledge and necessitates the hiring of skilled legal counsel. My office often welcomes constituents who are in need of guidance for appeals. Most often, these issues involve social assistance decisions and rental disputes. In all of these cases, we seek to direct the constituent to legal resources to ensure they have the best shot at presenting their case. In many instances, the combination of the constituent’s complaint and their income makes them eligible to receive legal aid.

For many new homeowners, this is not an option. Legal costs begin adding up, putting additional pressure on a family budget already strained by a mortgage and the other costs associated with the defect in question.

Many consumers are forced by circumstances to self-represent and have to overcome an additional challenge of well-represented opposition in the face of Tarion and the builders themselves.

Justice Cunningham was clear: The proceedings must be solely between the consumer and the warranty authority that would pay out the claim. We are pleased to see that the government has taken this recommendation on board fully by specifying in the new act that the parties to a hearing before the tribunal are the consumer and the authority alone. The recommendations related to self-represented consumers can help make the process easier for them, especially through increased training for tribunal members regarding self-represented applicants.

A clearer and more concise statement of the procedures and aims for the tribunal hearing can also help self-represented appellants prepare their presentations and evidence in a way that will deliver their argument effectively and in the appropriate formats. Despite this, the PC caucus and I agree with the review’s overall drive to make sure disputes have every opportunity to de-escalate before they end up before a tribunal. To this end, the recommendations include a mandatory internal dispute resolution process and access to independent adjudication. Beyond legal costs, other expense considerations deter current consumers from pursuing current claims further.

As Justice Cunningham stated in his report, the current framework does not determine who carries the onus of proof into a warranty dispute. Because of this ambiguity, consumers feel that they must engage professional experts to carry out assessments and investigations on their property to determine a set of facts related to the claim and bring the experts’ conclusions to a hearing where they are likely to be contrasted with those of experts hired by the builder or the warranty authority. Aside from duplicating work, this situation also causes an escalation of claims costs to the authority and the consumer, as well as tying up the tribunal’s resources.

I am an engineer, and I am very much aware of the cost of specialist engineering and assessment services. When bad construction is an issue, it shouldn’t be a matter of pitting one expert’s opinion against the other. Justice Cunningham understood this well and did recommend that an adjudicator could hire an expert to assess the situation and deliver an objective statement of facts.

Bill 166 takes a small step towards making the warranty claim process easier for consumers, but falls short of implementing the full guarantees envisioned by Justice Cunningham. The consumer is now only required to show the symptoms of a defect rather than proving its cause in order to make a claim. This makes the process of initiating a claim easier, and it is bound to help many consumers who might discover a defect only a short time before the expiry of the prescribed warranty period.

As an example, a two-year warranty period covers defects that may result in water penetration into the building, whether through foundations, the walls or windows. By clarifying that the consumer need only to prove the symptom of the problem rather than the cause, Bill 166 will make it possible for somebody to initiate a claim the moment they see water damage without having to hire somebody to investigate the problem to determine if the water indeed came from the windows rather than through a bad roofing job.

These changes are also inserted into Tarion’s existing enabling legislation, but only upon proclamation rather than royal assent, meaning only consumers who haven’t had their claims decided on by Tarion will benefit from the new provisions. This doesn’t help many categories of consumers. First, it offers no help to those consumers whose claims have already been dismissed and who, for one reason or another, including high legal and expertise costs, could not pursue a potentially legitimate claim further at a tribunal.

We can understand the lack of recourse for someone who has already lost at a tribunal: what has been judged is final. This is an essential part of the separation between our power and that of the judiciary. There should be still a legitimate debate as to how we can better protect those consumers who have not yet taken the appeal step or who may be facing the prospect of making a claim regarding their new home.

Secondly, it provides no guarantee to today’s new home buyers as to when the new, simpler and more manageable burden of proof will take effect. For all they know, they could buy a home today, and by the time they have to file their two-year claim—or even their seven-year one—the new standard of evidence may not have been proclaimed and they would face the same hurdles as many consumers who have come forward during the Cunningham review to voice their dissatisfaction.

Enacting this bill in its current form also risks creating a particularly unpleasant incentive for Tarion. The

section that amends the Ontario New Home Warranties Plan Act states that only claims that have not yet been decided on by the Tarion Warranty Corp. at the time of the proclamation are eligible to be considered under the new burden of proof. Consumers who are either currently or soon to be embroiled in the first stages of a claim should be able to count on this Legislature to see that justice and fairness are enforced and seen to be enforced.

Their confidence in the legislation and the procedures underpinning Tarion as it exists today are borne in part from a perception that the deck is stacked against the consumer. However much confidence we may have in Tarion, we should consider providing consumers with a clear indication of our intent to reform the current claim system and do better by consumers through a clause that would make consumers eligible for consideration under the new regime for claims under consideration or filed after the day the bill was introduced. This is not an unreasonable proposition.

The original version of the Cunningham report was received by this government in December 2016, over 10 months ago. In the time since, the government would have worked with key stakeholders and with Tarion, in conjunction with the additional working group they convened, to hammer out the details of how the report’s recommendations would have been implemented. The changes to the burden of proof provisions should therefore come as no surprise to Tarion. Making the burden of proof reform retroactive to the day of the bill’s introduction would be the least we can do, as legislators, to cement in consumers’ minds the confidence that we are committed to changing the new home warranty disputes.

Consumers are, unfortunately, right to be skeptical of the government’s commitment to following through on a comprehensive and detailed review such as Justice Cunningham’s. As just one example, since the early 2000s experts in the health sector have called for a minimum legislated standard of care, yet the government hasn’t committed to one yet. Ontarians who wished to see changes in how beer, wine and spirits were sold in Ontario have been waiting for years, since 2005, when a reputable report to then-Minister Greg Sorbara recommended sweeping changes to the LCBO.

With this report, matters were even more complicated. Justice Cunningham’s original scheduled report release date of June 2016 had to be pushed back as a result of the multitude of issues brought to light by consumers and stakeholders who had plenty of experience and knowledge to share. This turned out to be a much deeper investigation than was originally envisioned by the government.

The then-minister’s remarks certainly prove that the government expected a fairly smooth ride through the review process. In the Toronto Star

article on the initiation of the Tarion review, Minister Orazietti was quoted as saying that he expected the review to endorse the status quo and to find Tarion an effective consumer protector. He would not have used those words unless he had either been briefed so, or held a genuine belief to that effect. In both cases, Justice Cunningham’s feedback during his work on the review would have likely come as a shock and shown consumers that the government had an unexpected reform on its agenda.

The delegated authority model was created for the purpose of industry-led self-regulation in those sectors where public safety and confidence needed to be preserved but direct government intervention would have been cumbersome. This is the vein in which the Technical Standards and Safety Authority, the Electrical Safety Authority, the Travel Industry Council of Ontario, the Real Estate Council of Ontario, Tarion and other agencies should operate. This model was not, however, designed to exist outside of government oversight or leadership, yet this is precisely what the present government has allowed to happen.

When consumers and the opposition brought significant issues with agencies such as the TSSA to the government’s attention, the usual response was that the authority in question was an arm’s-length corporation. The absence of share capital and a more informal board appointment process made these authorities exempt from oversight by legislative committees.

Limits in existing independent officers’ enabling legislation contributed to creating the perception and, in some cases, a culture of opaqueness that does not belong in an agency tasked with administering an Ontario piece of legislation, collecting mandatory membership fees, issuing licences, inspecting licence holders and meting out punishment.

I commend the present minister for admitting that Tarion has strayed too far from government, and vowing to bring more control over the corporation’s regulation-making power. Bill 166 implements direct ministerial control over the vast portion of Tarion’s regulation-making ability, ensuring that the government of the day bears the responsibility for public policy passed by the corporation. This should be the first step towards a broader reform of the delegated authority model.

I have called for such a reform for a long time and have a bill on the table to open up such authorities to several trusted oversight bodies and public information tools. For instance, the current government’s approach to creating new agencies includes Auditor General oversight. This may be a positive development, however, it fails to address the complete lack of such oversight at existing authorities.

The Ontario Ombudsman is not allowed near any delegated authority, and the furthest concession this government has made in that regard is the mandatory appointment of an internal ombudsperson in the new warranty authority. It is, again, a very small step in the right direction, but not nearly enough.

Licensees who can see their livelihoods threatened if they do not comply with the authority’s every command cannot as much as demand to see the authority’s top salaries. The most recently created authorities in the condominium sector, in home inspections, as well as those envisioned by Bill 166, only require that the agencies disclose salaries in accordance with a ministerial regulation rather than the more comprehensive sunshine list.

Isn’t it time we stopped taking half-steps when we have the tools and the knowledge to implement reform on a much larger scale, setting ourselves and our institutions up for the next decades rather than catching up to what consumers and businesses have been expecting for just as long?

The government is no stranger to taking dramatic and sudden action in the wake of public concern or outrage. In the time I have been here, I have been witness to the government’s rushed changes to cool-off periods for water heater contracts, only to see the status quo restored quietly a few years later. When the public demanded their loyalty points stay with them forever, the government stepped in with a rushed piece of legislation that caught all stakeholders by surprise.

“Consultation” is a word this government often uses, but its meaning changes depending on the prevailing political wind. On one end, the government pays lip service to the concept by hosting pre-budget consultations and having the committee travel the province, yet writes and releases the budget before the committee has even finished hearing people’s feedback and drafting its

summary of the hearings. On other occasions, the government outsources its consultative duty to outside agencies and relies on advice that is often drawn from very unrepresentative samples. For instance, the government prepared a major alteration on payday lending regulation in Ontario following discussions in focus groups consisting of less than 20 people in total, drawn entirely from the GTA.

With the Tarion review, this government laid down a fairly solid foundation for a comprehensive and exhaustive examination of how new home warranties and builder regulations are administered in Ontario. They retained the services of a respected and experienced legal professional and, when needed, granted him additional time and scope to pursue his inquiry. When the report was released, it addressed a vast array of consumer gripes with Tarion as well as institutional accountability and conflict-of-interest issues that had not been addressed before.

All that was needed now was the political leadership and the wherewithal to take the report, present it to the ministry’s legislative drafters and state: “Please make this happen.” Alas, this government chose another path, and in doing so impacted the credibility of its commitment to Tarion reform, as well as the confidence Ontarians can have in the broad concept of consultation on major issues affecting our province.

With Justice Cunningham’s report in hand, the government convened an 11-member working panel appointed entirely under ministry control and bound by confidentiality agreements. Over the course of the first half of 2017, this working panel met and deliberated how to implement changes to Tarion and home warranties.

If Bill 166 is the result of the working group’s deliberations, then they either were not given the justice’s report or second-guessed it with gusto. This isn’t right, and it sets a bad precedent for the province as a whole. We convene professional and scholarly reviews for the purpose of taking an informed and wise look at how we do things as a government, and seeking advice on how to do them better. When we are told by the reviewer that we need to improve in an area, what kind of mandate do we have to counter this recommendation by saying that everything is fine?

The time-honoured tradition for this government is to compliment the reviewer, take pictures and shelve the report. In other instances, report recommendations have been cherry-picked and implemented piecemeal, as in the case of Bill 89.

By taking ownership of their decision to either not proceed with a recommended course of action or to implement some recommendations over others, governments maintain their role as decision-makers in what they believe to be the public interest and remain accountable to the public and to key stakeholders who may wish to voice their discontent.

In the case of the LCBO report, for instance, it is up to the Minister of Finance to address why something wasn’t done.

The outstanding action on a recommended legislated four-hour minimum standard of care in long-term-care homes lies squarely on the desk of the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care.

A member of the public inquiring about the government’s failure to implement a competitive and accountable model for new home warranties will find themselves facing a mire where no one seems to wield the final deciding power and everyone carries an undefined fraction of the blame for failing to act. This form of distributed responsibility strikes against the very heart of what it means to be a government and to be in government. Ministers are there to wield the power vested in their office and in their role with responsibility, judgment and integrity.

If the Minister of Government and Consumer Services, or her Premier, did not wish to pursue a competitive provision model, they should have come out and said so openly.

What Ontarians saw instead was muddied waters. A public and well-publicized review was submitted for deconstruction and second-guessing to an internally appointed panel that has served no purpose but to shield the present government from criticism. We have come to a point where if this government does not want to take an unpopular decision, it simply generates paper and delays until it can say the decision was made for them.

We all lose from such an approach, first and foremost because important and necessary reforms are not undertaken and sitting governments aren’t held accountable for their failure to act. Secondly, public confidence in the value of the feedback they provide to their own government can and will be shaken to such an extent that eventually people may judge the exercise to not be worth investing their time into.

When constituents ask me what the use of a written submission to the finance committee was when the budget was already written, I could not give them a satisfactory answer.

Consumers who have had it with high-cost disputes with Tarion and have had to hire their own experts will be asking where the independent expertise and adjudication that Justice Cunningham wrote about are, and I doubt anyone on the government side of this House will rise and say, “We chose not to have it.”

By deferring this decision-making process to others, or using as many talking shops as possible to shield themselves from criticism, this government encourages Ontarians to check out of their own provincial affairs. Owning your own decisions and being accountable for them is a mark of respect for those who took their time and resources to come forward and give their opinion, share their knowledge and illustrate their vision for change. It is one of the most basic duties that this government owes to the electors and residents of this province, who collectively trust us to represent and preserve their interest and their future.

The PC caucus supports splitting the regulator and warranty provider roles of Tarion, and we continue to support Auditor General oversight over new delegated authorities. We furthermore support the government’s initiative to enhance the builder directory by prescribing in legislation a set of absolutely mandatory disclosures that the builder regulator must make public regarding its members.

We have stated many times that principles that are basic, obvious and unlikely to change are best codified in legislation so consumers and stakeholders have a measure of certainty concerning what is expected of them. This bill allows the minister to prescribe more disclosures; however, we are pleased to see mandatory statements concerning complaints against a builder and disciplinary action taken against a builder by the regulator. Consumers have advocated for such changes and such legislative guarantees for years, and we are pleased to finally see them being implemented.

We’re also pleased with the prospect of consumers having a lower proof threshold to clear in order to begin filing a claim for compensation under the new home warranty framework. As many advocates have pointed out, the purpose of a warranty, first and foremost, is to protect the consumer against losses. It is therefore not reasonable to expect a consumer to first hire an expert to prove the cause of a water leak into a building when a consumer-oriented agency would take the claim, let its experts assess the causes and, should the consumer disagree, go to appeal. By that same token, auto insurers don’t wait for a determination of fault to begin the claim proceedings.

Bill 166’s provisions related to Tarion and home warranties are a small step forward for consumers. The failure to implement a competitive model, or at least lay the legislative groundwork to allow it to happen in the future, is a missed opportunity by this government to bring the province’s homeowners to the same level of choice, protection and accountability that homeowners in western provinces have already grown accustomed to.

I would like to add a few words regarding deposit protection, an issue that gained prominence in recent months with the bankruptcy of a large builder. The amounts protected under the deposit protection scheme administered by Tarion are not written into legislation but determined by Tarion through builder bulletins, which then have almost the same force as a regulation issued by the government.

In the real estate market we have today, homebuyers have seen the average price of a home in the GTA and elsewhere skyrocket while they were awaiting the construction of the property they put a down payment on. For those whose properties were built, this deposit protected their right to purchase a future property that would have netted them a profit at the moment it was built and transferred to them. Homeowners who paid deposits to builders who cannot deliver the home instead face the prospect of not being able to afford a home with the prices the market charges at that time.

The bankruptcy of Urbancorp highlighted the low amounts guarantee at the time by Tarion, which did not adequately reflect the deposits required to secure a property in the GTA. The levels have been stuck at $20,000 for condominium units and $40,000 for homes since 2003. Considering deposits are about 10% to 20% of a property’s value, it becomes clear just how far our property boom has come so rapidly; $200,000 condominiums and $400,000 homes are not a reality for many, if not most, homebuyers in the GTA, who instead might have to contend with seven-figure price tags when taxes, fees and interest are factored in.

If another Urbancorp happened today, many consumers could find themselves losing a significant portion of their deposit as well as their chance to get on the property ladder.

Since then, Tarion has launched a review of deposit protection, and I expect the issue to be examined and addressed more frequently than once a decade in the future. This isn’t a duty that belongs solely to Tarion or the future administrative authorities that will replace it. The government must show leadership on the file when called on to do so. When prices for new homes began to climb, the issue of deposit protection amounts should have been obvious.

In the wake of the Urbancorp bankruptcy, the government should have taken the initiative and ordered the review or exercised its power to issue regulations that would have made deposit insurance amounts reflect current home prices, and possibly set a mechanism for reviewing or adjusting these amounts on a regular basis depending on market conditions.

Buying a home is stressful enough. Individuals and families have to contend with finding a home, deciding the bid amount, working with banks for mortgages, paying taxes and fees, and generally begin settling into a brand new environment. When things go wrong that shouldn’t, the warranty provider should be there to tell the consumer that they have their back. Many consumers did not believe Tarion was up to that task, and have called for reform. Today’s bill takes one small step towards making new home warranties work for consumers, but plenty of work still needs to be done.

I now turn my attention to the part of the bill that concerns real estate brokers. Just like construction, the real estate industry and the professionals who work in it are the canary in the mine of Ontario’s economy. For most individuals, the purchase of a home is as much about their current economic situation as it is about their confidence in the future. Buying your first home often involves a mortgage and a commitment to pay a major portion of one’s income to a bank.

The individual and the bank extending the mortgage must agree that the household income level will be sufficient and stable enough to meet the long-term obligation. When either factor is missing, real estate transactions suffer.

Realtors know this, and they know their communities. It is a competitive industry, and professionals must approach homeowners and prospective buyers proactively every day to ensure that they are known for their professionalism, contacts and willingness to help residents find a home or sell their current property for the best price they can find.

In some circumstances, a realtor may find that their client list includes a buyer and a seller whose interests match and would probably lead to a successful and mutually convenient transaction. Double representation in this case raises a series of questions that both the realtor and the clients must address before proceeding. The buyer’s interest rests with purchasing the home at the lowest price point the seller is willing to accept,

whereas the converse is true for the seller. The government’s changes will limit a realtor’s ability to represent multiple clients in a transaction and also raise the penalties that can be levied against those who contravene the code of ethics established for the real estate profession.

Having spoken with industry stakeholders, we are aware that these changes come following a period of consultation with the profession and are broadly accepted. We do not oppose additional disclosure requirements for those realtors who do represent more than one party in a real estate deal. Our main objective should continue to be the expansion of public choice and building consumer confidence in the marketplace that they participate in. By preserving consumers’ right to choose their most trusted realtor, even if they represent the other party as well, we recognize the real estate professionals’ role as facilitators of mobility and economic activity in our communities.

Bill 166 further addresses changes to the way the travel industry is regulated in Ontario. The Travel Industry Act itself hasn’t been revised since 2002, when the last Progressive Conservative government enacted it. Travel has changed significantly since then, driven by rising incomes, rising Internet and computer use, and increased competition in travel services. When the Travel Industry Act first came into force, only a negligible portion of consumers used the Internet to search for travel options. Today, three quarters or more of travel transactions happen online instead of at retail locations.

Travel booking websites have proliferated and offer their users a variety of experiences, filters and options. Some integrate flights, accommodation and car rentals to build a custom vacation or offer the consumer a set of prearranged options. Some dedicate their services exclusively to one of these categories. Some instead function as aggregators of information given by other websites, allowing the consumer to often choose the cheapest option.

Regulation of such a distributed service provision model is difficult as individual jurisdictions such as Ontario have to contend with a marketplace where an Ontarian might look at a hotel in Mexico through a service headquartered in Spain, paying with a credit card through a payment system operating out of somewhere else.

Faced with higher air travel costs, some Ontarians choose to fly out of airports located on the US side of the border. In our case, in Ogdensburg, they opened their airport, extended it a few years ago, and they have seen their service to Florida increase exponentially, as it’s a much cheaper option.

In this context, travel industry regulators in Ontario need to accomplish three main aims: Firstly, they must ensure Ontario businesses provide the highest service quality to their customers and that consumers are shielded as much as possible from the adverse consequences of a provider’s bankruptcy. Secondly, they must work with providers headquartered out of Ontario, such as major travel websites, to encourage them to comply with Ontario regulation and disclosure requirements.

It is not rare for consumers shopping online for travel to be presented with one price at the beginning of the transaction, in order to entice them to click through, only to be told that the offer is now no longer available and having the price adjusted upwards. Often, such adjustments happen so inconspicuously that a consumer in a rush might not even notice that the price has spiked until after they press the final pay button.

In other instances, foreign systems tack on additional, previously undisclosed fees to the final ticket or accommodation price. When combined with high-pressure tactics, such as stating only a few seats are left at this supposedly convenient price, the effect on the consumer travel market is a reduction of overall consumer confidence.

The travel industry regulator’s third main role is arguably the most important in tackling the impact of such practices on Ontario consumers. The regulator collects fees from its registrants in order to operate, rather than relying on taxpayer funds, and uses a portion of those funds to educate consumers on the guarantees available to them under Ontario’s travel regulation framework and the key issues they need to remember to address before buying and before leaving.

According to surveys conducted during the Travel Industry Act review, just a fraction of consumers purchased travel health insurance prior to departing from Ontario. Constituents who have come by my office asking about OHIP coverage outside the province are often surprised how little coverage they actually have outside our borders. In such situations, we need to ask ourselves first whether we are covered under our employer’s plan, our pension plan or our credit card, for how long and for exactly what.

Insurance policies, including travel health ones, can be daunting to read and can be quite complex. This is a massive and varied marketplace catering to individual needs and situations where a one-size-fits-all regulatory approach doesn’t work. The best course of action is to create an educated and active consumer population that is not afraid to ask the right questions.

The major changes contemplated in Bill 166 involve the regulation of travel agents and the powers granted to TICO, the regulator, to enforce regulations against those who carry out activities for which registration may be necessary. The PC caucus agrees with these changes, especially as far as they concern the activities of people holding themselves out as travel agents or as people able to arrange travel but lacking the proper guarantees to back up the consumer in the case of trouble.

I need to point out, however, that an approach that paints everything as either black or white, combined with the lack of oversight over TICO, as is the case with other delegated authorities, may lead to some undesirable outcomes in cases where no wrongdoing or misrepresentation takes place.

As an example, I will take a hypothetical, ordinary Ontarian who helps organize a school or church trip somewhere abroad. In doing so, they make the airline bookings for the group members, buy train tickets from a foreign provider, book hotels and reserve museum tickets. Then they collect the money from the participants and hand over the tickets and the booking confirmations. Is such a person considered to be carrying on a business? Are they a travel agent and therefore mandated to register with TICO, or are they just a local community member who knows how to arrange a one-off trip?

The government is legitimately fulfilling its role as a steward of the public interest by creating the tools that are necessary for the regulator to enforce compliance. If there is no price for disobeying the rules, the rewards for doing so will attract the wrong people to the travel business. As TICO gains these new powers to levy administrative penalties and search non-registrant premises, they must keep in mind to exercise them with caution and with judgment.

The Ontario PC caucus has consistently called for a greater scope for Ontarians and Ontario businesses to appeal delegated authority action and will continue doing so.

The last component of Bill 166 repeals the existing Ticket Speculation Act and replaces it with the Ticket Sales Act. This move was prompted by the scandalous events surrounding the ticket sales at the last event by the Tragically Hip in Kingston, where tickets were sold out almost immediately then reappeared at inflated prices on resale platforms.

Before delving into the Ticket Sales Act further, we should take a look at the rules of supply and demand that govern any kind of sale, including that of event tickets. Arguably, the only commodity that is not finite and has no delivery cost is the air we breathe. There is a set quantity of almost everything else at any given time or there is a cost to bring it to the end user, which means that it has an intrinsic price at which demand and supply would meet, making the market clear.

Event tickets, especially those for popular performances or once-in-a-lifetime events such as the Tragically Hip concert in Kingston are at the far end of the spectrum because the demand from loyal fans far outstrips the venue’s capacity. In a perfectly free market, artists would set prices high enough to deter demand in excess of the overall event capacity. This approach would, however, shut out most budget-conscious fans from live concerts altogether. Current ticket sales practices seek to balance these competing needs, sometimes succeeding and sometimes failing.

Reports for some events highlighted that only a fraction, sometimes less than a quarter, of overall tickets were put on sale to the general public while the remainder were distributed among sponsors, promoters and other presale avenues. This is not inherently negative, as it is the means by which, for instance, radio stations and other entertainment stakeholders obtain tickets to give away to listeners.

The secondary resale market, which the Ticket Sales Act seeks to partially bring under control, exists principally to ensure that tickets that haven’t been distributed through presales or that are held by consumers no longer able to use them can be assigned to willing spectators. It is not designed for people to make a profit off selling tickets as if they were securities. We buy event tickets because we want to watch a show, not because we hope they will appreciate in value as the event draws nearer.

At face value, then, the government’s initiative appears measured and fair. Capping the resale value of a ticket at no more than 150% of the original value removes most of the profit motive from event ticket buying. Economically, this hard cap will likely not deter high ticket resale prices, but instead divert these transactions to unregulated channels. People buy event tickets for resale because they know loyal fans are willing to pay a higher price than that charged at the source. In doing so, they are exploiting an economically inefficient price at the point of public sale for their own benefit, leaving artists and event organizers without the extra profits they could have reaped.

While this discrepancy between public prices and market prices exists, the opportunity for individuals to sell at higher prices in an unregulated setting will continue to feed the black market.

Bill 166’s provisions on ticket-buying software will ban the sale of and use of buying bots in Ontario. This is fine, as long as the user in question is in Ontario. In a global marketplace, where goods, services and money travel along fibre optic cables and the Internet, this kind of limitation is a band-aid solution at best. Whether it is a single user running a bot from abroad or a syndicate buying up tickets without bypassing anti-bot verification, those with a will to profit from the inflating ticket prices will find a way to bypass this legislation.

What is the solution, then? We need a multi-pronged approach on the organizer, the distributor, the primary vendor and the secondary resale platform levels.

Buying bulk and bulk resale for profit leaves traces such as credit card numbers in common; phone numbers in common; bank accounts in common; IP addresses and email addresses; short ticket holding times between purchase and resale; and large purchases for many events, maybe in different venues on the same day. These are all elements of intelligence gathering that can help stamp out bulk buying at the ordinary fan’s detriment; however, there is hardly a way for us to codify these strategies into law. It would be akin to fighting a hydra, with every prohibition spawning two ways around it.

This is a fight for those who are directly involved in the creation, distribution, sale and resale of tickets to join and participate in concertedly. What they need from us is the assurance that whatever initiative they undertake to protect fans, we will have their backs.

I just wanted, in the last minute, to talk about some of the things that I have seen over the past. I bought tickets to Adele last year. Of course, you’re looking for a website, and it went to theaircanadacentre.com website, only to find out that when you’re checking out, it’s an American price, and there’s a large delivery price from Chicago as well as administration. So there’s an example where you look at something like theaircanadacentre.com—you think it would be Canadian, but it’s not. Those are the types of tricks that happen.

So we have to be able to work with consumers to educate them, and make some of the standard consumer options that are there—make sure that people understand them, know where to go and know where they’re secure.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

Mr. Wayne Gates: I’d like to congratulate my colleague who spoke for an hour on this particular bill. It’s a big bill; it shouldn’t be hard to speak for an hour to it with all the things that are in it.

I’m going to just talk about two things quickly. I’m going to have an hour to talk about Tarion and the mess that’s been created over the last number of years on purchasing a home. We’ve all done it, by the way; we’ve all bought our first home, and we’re all excited—our family is excited; the community is excited—to finally purchase a home, even though the bank really owns it for about 30 or 35 years, but that’s a whole other story. But at the end of the day, you’re excited. Then you move into your new home, and you have nothing but problems over a period of time, and it takes all that excitement away.

Then you go to Tarion, who is supposed to help you, and they don’t help you. They fight you every step of the way to make the claims. I’m going to elaborate on that over the course of my hour.

Today I’m going to talk about tickets, which he raised. When I began my speech earlier this week, I used an example that has been in the media quite a bit: the Tragically Hip farewell tour and the cost of those tickets. As you know, Madam Speaker, the news yesterday of Gord Downie passing broke the hearts of Canadians from coast to coast to coast. I’ll continue on that topic when I get a chance later. But I want to avoid the example, because what Gord Downie offered this country since his terrible diagnosis is beyond politics.

He offered us hope and unity, and the idea that we could work together for something bigger than ourselves. His music inspired millions, but his social justice work was just as powerful. He taught us that it’s never too late to care for our neighbours and to make the world a better place.

Let me close by saying: Thanks, Gord, and to the Tragically Hip and their fans. Though the world is darker today because of his passing, it’s brighter tomorrow because he was here.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

Mr. James J. Bradley: The member dealt with a number of issues which are very important in this bill. I was very pleased to see how comprehensive it is, particularly dealing with Tarion and the travel industry. These are things that affect people on a daily basis, those things you find in a bill such as this.

Ticket speculation he talked about as well. I associate my remarks with the member for Niagara Falls about Gord Downie and the profound effect he had on our nation and how sad our nation is, as a whole, at his passing. We all recall the furor, justifiably so, that surrounded his final tour and the opportunity to get tickets for that, how these bots were able to take the tickets away from everybody else and then resell them at a rate that was outrageous, to say the least.

We believe fans come first. For instance, that’s why we’re going to change the rules so fans in Ontario have what we would refer to as a real fair shot at getting the tickets they want while making sure ticket prices are affordable and transparent. The member was making reference to that.

We used the input and advice of over 34,000 fans and dozens of entertainment industry representatives to do a lot of proposed changes to Ontario’s ticket laws that would make buying tickets fair and more transparent to consumers. People in the Niagara region will know, for instance, the Meridian Centre. Elton John is coming to St. Catharines, which is a very big deal for a community of our size. Elton John tends to go to these kinds of communities. Immediately, it was impossible to get tickets because the bots had bought them up.

Using special techniques electronically the bots had purchased all these tickets and then were selling them at outrageous rates. We think this is very important. It’s contained in the bill, which is very comprehensive.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

Mr. Lorne Coe: I want to commend my colleague from Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry for speaking so extensively on this particular bill. It’s

an act to repeal various acts but, in particular, the Ontario New Home Warranties Plan Act, the Real Estate and Business Brokers Act, the Ticket Speculation Act and the Travel Industry Act.

Really, when you step back and look at the bill in its entirety, it’s a long overdue reform of home building and new home warranties in Ontario, but one aspect I’m disappointed in is that the bill doesn’t implement the most sweeping and meaningful of Justice Cunningham’s recommendations, and that’s specifically to allow new home warranties to follow a competitive market model. That particular approach has been implemented with success in Alberta, British Columbia and Saskatchewan, so I see that to be an oversight going forward.

Having said that, we’re pleased to see that the new authorities will have Auditor General oversight and a mandatory internal ombudsman. Equally pleasing is that provisions easing the onus of proof currently imposed on homeowners will help consumers initiate claims and resolve them in a more cost-effective way than is done today.

I wanted to turn, with the remaining time I have, Speaker, to real estate particularly and indicate that we support the additional disclosure requirements for realtors and brokerages. We welcome that in the spirit of openness and transparency. We all like to see that because stakeholders have pointed out that the changes are being made following consultation with the industry and the government. That’s a strong balance when you go to that level of consultation and, overall, I think it helps to improve the thrust of the intent of this particular bill.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Questions and comments?

M me France Gélinas: C’était très intéressant d’écouter le membre de Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry ce matin nous parler d’un projet de loi qui est quand même très volumineux. On parle de 97 pages. C’est un projet de loi qui modifie ou abroge différentes lois et édicte trois nouvelles lois en ce qui concerne la construction de logements neufs et la vente de billets d’événements. Il a passé au travers du projet de loi dans l’ordre dans lequel il a été écrit et on s’aperçoit que, quand même, ça couvre beaucoup.

Dans un premier temps, il a parlé de la

Loi sur l’agrément en matière de construction de logements neufs. Donc, les lois par rapport à la construction des logements neufs vont changer.

Ensuite, c’était sur la protection des propriétaires et des acquéreurs de logements neufs. Mon collègue de Niagara nous a déjà donné un petit avant-goût que les choses ne roulent pas bien en ce moment en Ontario pour les gens qui viennent d’acheter une maison neuve : ils sont excités, ils sont contents et font face à de multiples obstacles et problèmes. Ça a besoin d’être changé depuis longtemps. Mon collègue nous a donné un avant-goût, mais on va aller plus en profondeur.

La troisième

partie du projet de loi, c’est vraiment avec la vente de billets et le trafic des billets de spectacle. À cause de la mort de Gord Downie, on met l’accent sur le spectacle fabuleux que les Tragically Hip nous ont offert l’été dernier, l’été de 2016, et les difficultés que les gens ont eues à avoir des billets. Mais ça arrive tous les jours, dans toutes les grosses salles de spectacle, où les gens ont de la difficulté.

Ensuite, il y a deux autres parties de la loi que je n’ai même pas le temps de—

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Thank you. Merci.

M me France Gélinas: Je le remercie.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): I return to the member from Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry to wrap up.

Mr. Jim McDonell: I want to thank the members from Niagara Falls, St. Catharines, Whitby–Oshawa and Nickel Belt for their comments.

I wish the member from Niagara Falls luck with his hour leadoff. It is a long time to speak. But it is a big bill. I kind of chuckled when he talked about people buying their homes and the excitement, because there is a lot of excitement when you buy a home, especially if it’s new—and you move in, only to find some major problems.

I know a resident in my community who actually is afraid to bring the problems to light, is arguing with the home warranty—the owner. I think it was a prefab house that they built. There are large leaks in the roof and problems structurally. They moved out, and they’re afraid to lose their entire deposit. There is some argument that because it was built off-site a lot of the warranty and building codes—who enforces the building codes in those cases? Really, the argument shouldn’t be, who enforces the Ontario building code? It really should come down to protection for the homeowner.

We see with existing issues with Tarion, those are not looked after today. So you’ve got a couple who is afraid to say anything. They may have to try to sell their home. You can see the conflict that is involved when somebody is trying to address a complaint—in this case, a very serious complaint. A new family is trying to look after a long-term mortgage and now has no asset to fall back on the cost.

The member from St. Catharines talked about Elton John. I was at a movie the other night and I saw him; he was an actor in one of the films. It was a surprise role. He still is a very large entertainer.

Of course, who can talk about something today without mentioning Gord Downie and his contribution to the Canadian scene.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Deputy Speaker (Ms. Soo Wong): Seeing as it’s almost 10:15, I will be recessing the House until 10:30.

The House recessed from 1013 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

Mr. Michael Harris: I’d like to welcome two fine members of the Grand Valley Construction Association and the Ontario General Contractors Association: Jason Ball, the president of Ball Construction; and Jeff Kienapple is here somewhere as well. Welcome, gentlemen, to the Ontario Legislature.

Hon. Helena Jaczek: Please help me welcome a number of individuals from the Ontario Agencies Supporting Individuals with Special Needs, known as OASIS. We have Ann Kenney, the president of OASIS; Michelle Marshall; Sherry Parsley; Darren Connolly; Monica Zeballos-Quiben; Bob Butella; and Nancy Wallace-Gero.

Mrs. Gila Martow: I just want to welcome to the Legislature today page Max Haim—he’s the captain today—and his parents, Karine Benzacar and George Haim, his grandmother Vivian Benzacar, as well as his sister Nicole Haim, who was a page just last year. They are all here and very excited to see him be the captain today.

I also want to welcome from the Ontario General Contractors Association the president, Clive Thurston, and the director of government relations, David Frame, for their advocacy day. Thank you, gentlemen, for coming down.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Before we continue, we normally wait until the unanimous consent before we wear any products. So I would remind members not to wear anything that you’re not supposed to wear until we get unanimous consent. Thank you.

Member from Essex.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: From the Ontario General Contractors Association, I’d like to welcome Bill Currie, Marc Ferguson, David Kirkland, Chris Kucman, John Marshall, Raymondo Mollica, Chris Moran, Frank Perricone, Paul Raboud, Janis Rees, Bruce Reynolds, Shane Sinclair, Clive Thurston and Al Youmans here today to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Ann Hoggarth: I would like to welcome the president and CEO of Matheson Constructors, and a former neighbour of mine, Al Youmans, who is here today with the Ontario General Contractors Association.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: I would like to welcome today the students from the University of Toronto Campus Conservatives, as well as their president, Louis Vatrt, who are going to be here today watching question period. Welcome to the Legislature.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I also want to introduce members from the Ontario General Contractors Association who are here with us. In particular, please welcome Clive Thurston, David Frame and Paul Raboud to Queen’s Park.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member for Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Speaker, I would like to have unanimous consent to wear the pink scarves or puffs in the Legislature today for the Rethink Breast Cancer group, who are here in the gallery with us today.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): We have a unanimous consent, which is normally done after introductions, but we’ll do that now. Do we have unanimous consent to wear the scarves? Do we agree? Agreed.

Member from Essex.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: I’m really pleased to welcome someone from my riding of Essex, one of the best people I’ve ever had the chance to meet in my life, especially in this job: Nancy Wallace-Gero, who is the executive director for Community Living Essex County. She’s here today with the group from OASIS. I want to welcome her.

Mr. John Fraser: I would like to welcome members of Rethink Breast Cancer to the Legislature. We are joined by a large contingent of patients, survivors and supporters in the west gallery, including Rethink Breast Cancer founder MJ DeCoteau. They’re also hosting a reception in room 218 today. I encourage all members to attend.

I also invite my colleagues from all parties to join us for a photo on the main staircase directly following question period.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: I want to welcome Paul Shanahan and his daughter, Chloe, to Queen’s Park today. Paul is the second generation in a growing family business from Watford, Ontario, Shanahan Realty, started by his father, Leo, more than two decades ago. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Miss Monique Taylor: It really is a pleasure to welcome the folks from OASIS today to Queen’s Park. I was able to meet with Ann Kenney, Michelle Marshall, Darren Connolly and Monica Zeballos-Quiben, and from Community Living Hamilton, Sherry Parsley. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Bob Delaney: On behalf of the member for Brampton West and page Ryan Shahmohamadi, I’m pleased to welcome to the Legislature this morning Ryan’s mother, Rebecca Erkelens; his brother Jamie Shahmohamadi; his aunt Jacqueline Erkelens; and his cousins Geordie and Jared Erkelens. They will be in the public gallery this morning. Please welcome them to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Todd Smith: I’d like to welcome a good friend who is the mayor of Stirling-Rawdon, Rodney Cooney, to the Legislature today. He’s also the warden of Hastings county.

Also, the mayor of Prince Edward county is visiting us today, Robert Quaiff.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: I too would like to welcome the Eastern Ontario Wardens’ Caucus who are here with us today—we met this morning—chaired by Mayor Robert Quaiff from Prince Edward county. I’d be remiss if I did not mention my own warden and mayor of my own municipality, Mayor Mark Walas.

Ms. Laurie Scott: I’d like to introduce the parents of my page captain, Payton Marsh, Melissa and Jay Marsh; brother Wyatt Marsh, uncle Jim DeGeer, aunt Ann DeGeer and family friend Christine Buonaiuto. They are in the members’ gallery this morning. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Joe Dickson: I’m pleased to announce in the east gallery this morning, ladies and gentlemen, Carion Fenn of the Carion Fenn Foundation in my riding, and Olga Lambert, a Rogers TV producer. Welcome.

Mr. Jim McDonell: This morning we had a great chance to meet and have breakfast with the Eastern Ontario Wardens’ Caucus, in particular the warden of SDG, Jim Bancroft, and the CAO, Tim Simpson. I’m very happy to welcome them to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: Yes, I’d be remiss too if I didn’t welcome all of the members of the Eastern Ontario Wardens’ Caucus, so welcome again to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Dipika Damerla: I’m pleased to welcome Karine Benzacar, a dear friend of mine, who is here with her mother. She’s here because her son is a page. Welcome, Karine. It’s so good to see you.

Ms. Laurie Scott: On behalf of the member from Parry Sound–Muskoka, I’d like to introduce Phil Puddy and Will Prause, who are with us here in the gallery today.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Welcome.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: Yes, a good friend of ours is here visiting, Brian Donlevy. Welcome back to Queen’s Park, sir. It’s a pleasure to see you. Good health in your recovery.

Legislation in Quebec / Mesure législative au Québec

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The government House leader on a point of order.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I believe you will find that we have unanimous consent for a member of each caucus to speak for up to five minutes to comment on l’Assemblée nationale du Québec’s recently passed legislation, Bill 62.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The government House leader is seeking unanimous consent. Do we agree? Agreed.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: You have all heard me say that diversity is our greatest strength in Ontario. I believe that; I believe it to be true.

Comprendre, respecter et célébrer nos différences, ce sont les fondements de la société inclusive et harmonieuse que nous chérissons tous. I believe that to my core.

But it is not enough to just say it. We all have to make decisions with that belief in our hearts and in our minds. Sometimes life in a diverse society is uncomfortable, and that is exactly when it is even more important that we work to understand each other.

Religious freedom is part of our identity. Forcing people to show their faces when they ride the bus or banning women from wearing a niqab when they pick up a book from the library will only divide us. Every one of us should be able to live our lives and go about our day and practise what we believe without discrimination and without fear.

This is the kind of action that drives wedges in communities. It is not acceptable to me, and it should not be acceptable to any of us. We have a very close working relationship with Quebec, but on this issue we fundamentally do not agree. This legislation would disproportionately affect women who are sometimes already at the margins and push them into further isolation. These are people that you and I know.

They are our neighbours: the grandmother who, if she lived in Quebec, would no longer be able to drop off her granddaughter at a city-run daycare, or a mother who would not be able to bring her children to a hospital to see the doctor. That is not the kind of society that we stand for in Ontario.

Just this morning, I put out a statement inviting Amazon to take a good, long look at Ontario, to take a hard look at us as a place where they might want to bring their business because, at a time when others are becoming more insular, unable or unwilling to attract the world’s brightest and best, we are unwavering in our commitment to build a place that the whole world can call home. That’s the kind of community, that’s the kind of province and that’s the kind of world that I believe in.

We have and will continue to grapple with the tough questions that come with diversity. It’s not always easy, but that’s what makes it important. If we believe that difference is actually our strength then we do the work to understand each other—and not just tolerate each other, but love each other because of our differences. But if we approach those questions with empathy and an open mind, I know that we can get it right. That is what we have done through our history, and that is what we should do going forward.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further responses?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: On behalf of my leader, Patrick Brown, and the entire Progressive Conservative caucus, we join with the Liberal government in condemning this bill in Quebec. The law brought in by the Liberal government in Quebec has no place in Ontario. Indeed, it has no place in Canada. My leader has often said it doesn’t matter who you are, it doesn’t matter where you’re from, it doesn’t matter who you love, it doesn’t matter how much you make, and it doesn’t matter where you worship; you have a home here, in the province of Ontario, and we respect you. All Canadians have a legal right to their religious beliefs, including in the province of Quebec.

I would be a hypocrite if I stood here in this place today to not support this motion. Speaker, you’ll recall there was a time in our history, in this assembly, where we thought about removing the Lord’s Prayer. I was a young MPP at the time—it was about 11 years ago—and I fought vigorously for the right to defend the Lord’s Prayer in this place. It was a time when my father was dying, and sometimes the only way I was able to get faith was to come in here and have half a minute to reflect.

I was really pleased that we came as an assembly to come together and not remove the Lord’s Prayer, but to look around this assembly and understand that there are people of different faiths, whether that’s Jewish or Hindu or Buddhist or others, and we were able to incorporate something that was inclusive, not exclusive. I think that’s the Canadian spirit, and that’s why I’m proud of this assembly. Whether you wear a cross, a turban, a hijab, a kippah or any other religious symbol, you should never be denied any public service in the province of Ontario or anywhere else in Canada.

The Canada I grew up in—I’ve always said it—was not diverse at all. I grew up in a small town called New Glasgow, Nova Scotia. But one of the greatest things that I have had to live in my life is to come here—to see the diversity in the city of Ottawa; in the riding I represent, Nepean–Carleton; and here in the most diverse city in the world, Toronto. There is no place for two-tiered citizenship in Canada, and as members of this assembly, we must always stand against that.

I’ll leave on this point: The expression of freedom is never strengthened when we try to limit it in others. Therefore, I continue to oppose this bill. I would also ask that our government seek leave to intervene in any charter challenge on the constitutionality of this bill. I think that we must stand against it and stand firmly against it.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further response?

Ms. Peggy Sattler: I rise as women’s issues critic for the Ontario NDP on behalf of my caucus and my leader, Andrea Horwath. I want to say at the outset that I am struck by the fact that these events in Quebec are unfolding as we in Ontario are celebrating Women’s History Month and Islamic Heritage Month.

As we all know, the Quebec National Assembly has passed Bill 62, legislation that was introduced by the Liberal government there, which bans public workers and anyone receiving public services from wearing the niqab or any face covering—an unprecedented action in Canada.

Many academics and legal scholars across the country have raised concerns that Bill 62 is a fundamental violation of human rights that will be found to be unconstitutional under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Ontario New Democrats agree that we need to be unequivocal about women’s rights to autonomy over their own bodies. There is no circumstance in Ontario in which anyone should ever be able to tell a woman what she can or cannot wear, whether high heels at work or a veil on a bus.

Despite the guise of religious neutrality, Quebec’s legislation appears to be targeted primarily at Muslim women wearing the niqab or burka. It says that you cannot cover your face when you give or receive public services as a matter of public safety. In fact, this bill has nothing to do with secularism or public safety, which is why it is overwhelmingly not supported by municipalities in Quebec and is likely unenforceable.

The mayor of Montreal says they won’t enforce it. Mayors everywhere recognize the importance of diverse, welcoming communities. They are concerned in Quebec about the hate that this law could incite in a province that saw the mass shooting at a mosque of 25 people, six of whom died, earlier this year.

This is a dangerous law that compromises rather than protects public safety. As University of Waterloo political scientist Emmett MacFarlane said today in an editorial, “It is impossible to reconcile this law as anything other than the targeting of a minority group.” He goes on to say that “rights are held by individuals, and where it may be constitutional to force someone to remove a winter scarf or a pair of sunglasses, governments must justify imposing limits on religious freedoms like wearing the niqab.”

For the less than 100 women in Quebec who wear the niqab—in other words, 0.0006% of the population—it is difficult, if not impossible, to imagine how this restriction on their religious freedom or their right to wear religious clothing could be justified on public safety grounds.

We agree with Emmett MacFarlane: The state cannot impose freedom by restricting it.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I thank all members for their comments.

Report, Financial Accountability Officer

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I beg to inform the House that I have laid upon the table a report of the Financial Accountability Office entitled Long-Term Budget Outlook, fall 2017.

Oral Questions

Government accountability

Mr. Patrick Brown: My question is for the Premier. According to the scathing Auditor General’s report, the Ministry of Energy signed a contract with a retainer of $500,000 to receive help from a law firm to provide services and to compile emails before providing them to us. At the same time they completed the special report, the ministry has still not provided us with all the emails in terms of the Auditor General’s office. Those emails were requested on May 31, 2017. I can appreciate the frustration of our Auditor General.

Did the Premier authorize or instruct the Minister of Energy to block or delay the release of those emails, or did the minister obstruct the Auditor General on his own decision?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Our government remains committed to being open and transparent, and continues to co-operate with the Office of the Auditor General. For example, the Independent Electricity System Operator has so far provided 1,200 records to the Auditor General; Ontario Power Generation has provided hundreds of records; the Ontario Financing Authority has provided 3,242 records; Treasury Board, thousands of records. And yesterday, I explained that, as of October 13, the ministry has provided 13,212 records to the Office of the Auditor General.

In this process, and throughout our everyday operations, we’re adhering to all document retention standards. Additionally, the ministry is continuing to release additional information to the Auditor General. In fact, we’ve committed to providing all additional records to the auditor by November 1. The ministry has been regularly providing the Auditor General’s office with additional responsive documents—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Supplementary?

Mr. Patrick Brown: Back to the Premier: The question was, who ordered the obstruction? Was it the Premier’s office, or was it the Minister of Energy’s own decision?

The minister said that he released 13,000 emails to the Auditor General. However, he still went out and got some high-priced help for this apparent obstruction. In fact, the half-a-million-dollar consulting firm and his office originally identified some two million emails. That means he released less than 1%. That’s actually 0.65% of the identified emails. Here he is bragging to the House, “We released 1% of our emails to the Auditor General.” That’s not good enough. Less than 1%—that’s not transparent; that’s a government that’s engaged in obstruction.

My question is very straightforward to the Premier herself: Will the Premier release the other 99% of the emails and the disclosures to the Auditor General?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. The context of the words that are causing a little consternation has to stay very clear. If it goes over the line to an accusation, I’m going to ask the member to stop using that. If he says that he believes that is happening, so be it.

Minister?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Again, we had 80 custodians identified, capturing 40 phrases that provided over two million emails. Not all of those emails applied to this actual document and to this request.

Really, when we’re looking at what was being done with the fair hydro plan, it was giving families what they had asked for: real and immediate relief on their electricity bills. That’s what we delivered. We made a policy choice to ensure that we continue to have a clean, reliable and affordable—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. It’s difficult for me to ask one side to stop when members of the person getting the answer are heckling over top of the minister giving an answer. It will stop.

Finish, please.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: As I was saying, we made the policy choice to ensure that we continue to have a clean, reliable and affordable electricity system for ratepayers of today and ratepayers—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Affordable?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Renfrew, come to order.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): You can even get warned for doing a gesture, sir.

Final supplementary?

Mr. Patrick Brown: For a third time, directly to the Premier: The half-a-million-dollar consultants have had since May 31 to get these emails to the Auditor General. That’s 141 days and counting. I’m sure Peter Faist worked his email magic a lot quicker than that, and it only cost $10,000.

I agree with the Auditor General. This is an offensive obstruction of the rights of the Auditor General, and every single member of this Legislature. One more day is one too many.

So my question, Mr. Speaker, directly to the Premier—I hope that she will answer this herself, rather than passing the buck. Will she have those emails boxed up and sent over to the Auditor General before another one of her Liberal cronies has a chance to double-delete them? I want that disclosure. The people of Ontario deserve that disclosure. Will she release the other 99% of emails on this very serious matter?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Talking about days, we know it’s been almost 365 days since they said that they would release a plan on what they would do with the electricity sector, and they have done nothing.

Let’s look at what we have done: We’ve lowered electricity bills by 25% for all residential customers, and as many as a half a million small businesses and farms. I know the parties opposite have yet to even present a credible plan.

Families in this province asked for real and immediate relief, and that’s what we’ve delivered. The fair hydro plan is providing that 25% reduction to all residential ratepayers, and guarantees that the costs will not rise beyond the rate of inflation for the next four years.

Electricity rates had risen too much, too fast, as a result of the investments that we made in our electricity system, which had become unreliable, with brownouts and blackouts. The fair hydro plan makes sure, with the investments that we made, that we’ve made it clean, reliable and affordable.

Mr. James J. Bradley: Patrick Houdini.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The chief government whip will come to order.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Northumberland–Quinte West knows better.

New question.

Government accountability

Mr. Todd Smith: My question this morning is for the Premier. The Premier rode in on a white horse. She touted her open government. She loudly exclaimed, “Let’s do things differently.” And then, in their speech from the throne, was “A plan to open up government with increased transparency and more accountability.”

Ever since then, they’ve—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

Finish, please.

Mr. Todd Smith: She made all these promises, and ever since then she has respected the independent officers of the Legislature. She has thrown open the books for the independent officers to look at, she has followed the rules and she has respected the law—kidding; she hasn’t done any of that. She has actually made up her own rules. She has actually removed oversight from the officers of the Legislature. What happened to this Premier saying she was going to do things differently?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I know when my honourable friend rises and talks about all of the great things that our Premier continues to do—he was starting off on the right path, but the only party that is seen as a party that’s kidding with the people of Ontario is the party opposite. That party will do one thing and then say another every single week.

They talk about bringing forward a plan on electricity, and then say, “Oh, wait. No, that will come next week. Oh, no, wait. That will come next month.” Now it’s going to happen on some magical weekend in November. But we know they have no plan. They have no idea what to do to help the people of Ontario.

Just for example, not even when it comes to electricity, let’s talk about the minimum wage. At first reading, they voted in favour of helping all low-income people in this province. Then, when it came to voting on the bill yesterday, where were they? Nowhere.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Todd Smith: It’s really a shame that the Premier won’t actually answer these questions about her lack of openness and transparency that she promised. We’re talking about a brand new $4-billion scandal here on this so-called fair hydro plan. This is going to cost taxpayers and electricity customers billions of dollars.

It’s starting to look like an episode of The Simpsons over there. Where are they going to find this $4 billion? In a case of Duff Beer, or Lisa’s saxophone, or Grampa Simpson’s drawer? Who’s running the show over there? Is it Homer Simpson, or is it Ed Clark?

We have the members of the Eastern Ontario Wardens’ Caucus here. They’re looking for much-needed infrastructure dollars. How far would this $4 billion go to answering the needs in our local communities? But it’s not going there.

When will the Premier just stand up and admit she has made an enormous mistake on this scheme?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: The fair hydro plan is reducing the bills of everyone in this province by 25%. That’s something that we should all be proud of, because we recognize that we spent money on infrastructure, rebuilding the system—$70 billion.

I know that the Minister of Infrastructure or even the Minister of Transportation can talk over and over again about all the infrastructure that we’re building right across the province. But let me start talking a little bit about the infrastructure:

—$13.5 billion in the GTHA GO regional express rail, which is going to quadruple the number of weekly trips to 6,000;

—$5.3 billion in the Eglinton Crosstown LRT;

—$1 billion in the Ring of Fire;

—tripling the Ontario Community Infrastructure Fund to $300 million;

—$1.4 billion in the Hurontario LRT;

—$1 billion in Ottawa’s LRT;

—$43 million in the Waterloo regional transit hub.

And I haven’t even started on northern Ontario—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Final supplementary.

Mr. Todd Smith: It’s amazing to me that the Premier doesn’t want to answer these questions. We’re talking about a lack of openness and transparency that she promised here. This scandal is costing us $4 billion. And they haven’t released all of the documents. They haven’t released the emails.

In all seriousness, the fact that they haven’t released all of the emails, given what happened during the gas plants scandal, is absurd. It’s an egregious breach of trust by this government. They stonewalled an FOI, saying no records exist, and now they play the waiting game, trying to outlast the public’s right to see the government’s backroom dealing.

Speaker, I’ll provide the boxes. All they have to do is take those emails and put them in the boxes. As a matter of fact, I still have the boxes from the gas plants scandal; I’ll send those boxes over, and they can put the emails in those boxes.

Just turn over the boxes and do the right thing.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Let’s be clear on one thing: All of the boxes that they have on that side are usually filled with something else, and it’s not something that we really want to smell.

The one thing I can talk about here is that we’ve made sure that we’ve put 80 custodians, 40 access words—and we have come up with two million documents. Those two million documents were gone through by our law firm, and they identified 145,000 emails. Those 145,000 emails are now being gone through by the Ministry of Energy, making sure that we can provide to the Auditor General as many emails as possible—and that has been 13,212 by October 13. And do you know what, Mr. Speaker? We’re going to make sure that she has all of those documents by November 1.

Government accountability

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question is to the Premier. This week we learned that the Premier and her Liberal government are forcing Ontarians to pay an extra $4 billion to hide the devastating effect of their $40-billion hydro borrowing scheme from the public. But that’s not the only thing that they’re hiding. The Auditor General’s report says that based on the email correspondence her office looked at, the Liberals knew what the cost would be, they had other options, they were advised to take those other options, and still they stuck Ontario families with a $4-billion bill.

Will the Premier tell the people of Ontario: Did she personally green-light this accounting trick, knowing it would cost families $4 billion on their hydro bills?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I’m very pleased once again to rise and answer questions on this and, of course, to talk about the fair hydro plan, as well.

But let’s first talk about the accounting. The government’s financial statements are prepared in accordance with the public sector accounting standards and will continue to follow these standards for the transactions resulting from the fair hydro plan in the 2017-18 years and of course in future years. In regard to the rate-regulated accounting—

Mr. John Yakabuski: You had OPG borrow the money. You co-opted a crown corporation.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, second time. We’re moving to warnings. You’ve had your moment; now it’s ours.

Finish.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: So PSAS is silent on and does not prohibit the use of rate-regulated accounting. Many entities in Canada, including OPG, Toronto Hydro, Fortis and Hydro One, use rate-regulated accounting as well. In fact, six of eight other independent system operators across North America use rate-regulated accounting, and I’ll get to more in the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Well, Speaker, I hope the Premier will get to the supplementary.

The AG’s report says that emails show senior government officials were warned of the cost of this plan and were told there were other options. Since the Premier refuses to release the emails that the AG examined in her investigation, can she tell us who were the senior government officials that were warned?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Once again, I get to rise and speak about our fair hydro plan. Families in the province asked for real and immediate relief on their electricity bills, and that’s what we delivered. The fair hydro plan is providing an average of 25% to residential ratepayers—that’s a cut, Mr. Speaker—and guarantees that electricity rates will not rise beyond the rate of inflation for four years, and as many as a half a million small businesses and farms are also benefiting.

But we all knew, Mr. Speaker, that electricity rates had risen too much, too fast, as a result of the investments that we made—$70 billion—and so that meant that we were paying off those investments too quickly. The fair hydro plan smooths out the costs of those investments, but over a longer period of time. That means the system improvements are paid for by the people who use the system now and of course will use the system later—and that’s fair—because this plan makes sure that we also keep all of these assets on the electricity side with the ratepayer, where they should be.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Again to the Premier: The people of Ontario deserve to know who authorized this extra $4 billion on their hydro bills. Yesterday, I moved a motion to require these emails to be released publicly. The Liberals used their majority to shut down debate on that motion.

The Premier has already set aside $500,000 for a lawyer to organize these emails for the AG. It should be easy to release them now to the public. Will she?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: We have provided 13,212 emails to the Auditor General and will make sure all of the emails that apply to this file will be provided to the Auditor General by November 1. We’re constantly working with the Auditor General’s office and are in constant contact with the office.

But let’s take one step back and be very clear. This decision with the fair hydro plan was a policy choice, a choice to ensure that we continue to have a clean, safe, reliable and affordable electricity system for the ratepayers of today and the ratepayers of tomorrow. The fair hydro plan keeps the cost of borrowing within the rate base, not the tax base, because that’s the logical and right thing to do. Electricity financing should remain within the electricity system.

While the Auditor General is welcome to her opinion, our plan has been approved by her peers at some of Canada’s top accounting firms, like KPMG, E and Y, and Deloitte.

Government accountability

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Again to the Premier—hope springs eternal.

One government official said this about the Liberals’ determination to make people pay an extra $4 billion on their hydro bills: “Hopefully they’ll come to the conclusion that [the plan] can be financed by the province ... rather than externally, as that would be a lot simpler and cheaper.”

Why would the Premier ignore the advice of non-partisan public servants and push ahead with this financial cover-up?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member will withdraw.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I’m happy to rise and once again talk about the importance of the policy choice that we made, Mr. Speaker. That policy choice was to ensure that we can have that clean, reliable and affordable system that we’ve talked about. I know that we keep talking about the importance of making sure that we keep electricity costs within the electricity system, and the fair hydro plan does that.

We have always ensured that when OPG builds a new hydroelectric dam, when Bruce Power refurbs its nuke plants or when we see Guelph Hydro, for example, or any utility actually invest in their system, the cost of borrowing stays within the electricity system. That’s why we brought forward this policy choice: to keep the cost of the electricity system in that sector.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Speaker, to the Premier: I’ll just note that her predecessor decided he didn’t have to answer to the Legislature either, and that didn’t end well.

The AG’s report says that senior government officials and staff cautioned against that expensive accounting trick. She said officials noted that the design of their $40-billion borrowing scheme “will result in higher costs for Ontarians.” This was cut and dry. The Liberals were told that if they proceeded with the trick, it would cost people more, and they did it anyway.

Why is the Premier putting her desperate re-election hopes ahead of the needs of Ontario’s families?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: From my understanding, the Premier’s previous predecessor, when he left—we ended up winning a majority government on this side of the House, because we were the party that brought forward a plan that actually benefited all of the people of Ontario. None of them on that side, Mr. Speaker, had a plan—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Finish, please.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: The opposition parties had no plan then; they have no plan now, Mr. Speaker.

We brought forward a plan that brought immediate relief, a policy choice that we made to continue to ensure that we have a clean, reliable and affordable system of electricity in this province, and that’s something that we’ll continue to do for the people of Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Again to the Premier: The Premier’s $40-billion hydro borrowing scheme was already going to drive up hydro bills in the long run. To hide the cost she, or someone in her cabinet, authorized a $4-billion accounting trick and added it onto people’s hydro bills. The AG says the Liberals were warned about this. They were given other options and they simply ignored the advice from civil servants and went ahead anyway.

The Premier won’t tell us who greenlit this massive betrayal of the public trust. She refuses to release emails that show who in her party knew what and when. How many more desperate abuses of power does this Premier plan before the next election?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: That’s unequivocally untrue, Mr. Speaker. We have always been open and transparent as a government. We’ll continue to co-operate with the Office of the Auditor General.

Of course, Mr. Speaker, let me reiterate something—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Finish, please, Minister.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Like I started off with, Mr. Speaker, let’s talk about what we have done so far: 13,212 emails have been brought in to the Auditor General; 1,200 emails and records from the IESO; hundreds from the OPG; 3,242 from the Ontario Financing Authority; and thousands of records from the Treasury Board. In this process, we have ensured that every day and throughout our operations, we’re adhering to all document retention standards.

Fiscal accountability

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Good morning, Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Finance. This morning, we learned from the Financial Accountability Office that the government’s debt reduction claims are $6.5 billion off the mark. The FAO said that’s equal to eliminating funding for 40% of Ontario’s hospitals, to put it in perspective. They painted a bleak and stark long-term budget outlook for Ontario.

Meanwhile, the government continues to insist they’re on track even though they use the same data the Financial Accountability Office used. The FAO clearly stated, “without an adjustment to Ontario’s fiscal policy,” we will see increasing budget deficits and higher levels of debt.

The people of Ontario clearly cannot trust anything this government says. Will the minister come clean about their debt claims and tell us what they plan to do to address these new concerns?

Hon. Charles Sousa: I appreciate the question. I appreciate the work done by the FAO in regard to looking long term, in terms of the demographic and challenges that not only Ontario—he makes reference to the fact that all OECD countries everywhere around the world are going to be facing these challenges.

We, too, came out with a long-term report last year recognizing these very issues. The FAO rightly states that we have to take measures and have to address these long-term challenges. It is exactly what it is that we’re doing in our budgets today. We are looking long term in terms of the programs we put in place to support health care, to support education. In fact, universal health care that has been expanded to youth under 25 is part of that. The work that we’re doing with pension reform is part of that, both of which that side of the House have actually declined to do.

We need to support these very measures. We need to manage our fiscal house. That’s why we’re balancing the books this year, next year and the year after that.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Back to the minister: The FAO confirmed again this morning that their so-called balance is all with the one-time asset sales and other one-time revenues. But here’s why what the Financial Accountability Office said today matters to families: The FAO says not meeting the debt targets means there will be “less fiscal room for spending on government priorities, such as health and education.” The FAO also said that Ontario is less able to respond to unforeseen events, such as the next recession.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The chief government whip is warned.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Perhaps worst of all, the FAO says continuing on this course will unfairly shift the fiscal burden from baby boomers to younger Ontarians.

This week, two independent officers of the Legislature have disputed the Liberals’ numbers. How can families ever trust anything this government says again?

Hon. Charles Sousa: We came into office recognizing that the recession had hit us hard, recognizing that the Conservative government federally doubled their debt, had almost the highest deficit in Canada’s history under their watch, and we on this side of the House also recognize those challenges. It is why we stimulated growth, invested heavily in infrastructure to build our economy and support the people of Ontario.

Today, we’re outpacing Canada and the G7 countries. Today, we have the lowest unemployment in 17 years. Today, 730,000 net new jobs have come to the province. Today, we are continuing to invest long term to address the very challenges that the FAO has rightly cited, ones that we accept and we are taking every step to manage going forward.

We are balancing. We’re balancing the books this year. We’re balancing the books next year and the year after that, and those members have voted against those measures.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Just a little reminder: We’re in warnings.

New question.

Air quality

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Again to the Premier: Today, an application was filed with the Environmental Commissioner calling for an investigation into alleged violations of the Environmental Protection Act. The applicants allege that on February 23 of this year, a malfunction at a petroleum refinery in Chemical Valley resulted in massive flaring that continued for 10 days. During this incident, residents in Aamjiwnaang and south Sarnia were unable to get any response from the ministry about what was going on and whether they were in any danger. Will the Premier investigate this serious incident?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of the Environment and Climate Change.

Hon. Chris Ballard: Thank you to the member opposite for raising what is a very troubling question, and that relates to the quality of air that folks in Sarnia and First Nations breathe but, more importantly, to what and how they’re communicated with.

I was down in Aamjiwnaang and Walpole Island not too long ago. One of the things we heard consistently was the need to improve the reporting.

Air sampling is done. My ministry has 11 different stations there. The First Nations have 15 stations in Aamjiwnaang. Industry has a number of monitoring stations. The town is involved with that, and the city of Sarnia is also involved with that.

One of the things we heard was a need to better coordinate that information. I’ve instructed my officials to look into how we can do that.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Again to the Premier: According to the application, “Residents of Aamjiwnaang and south Sarnia experienced foul odour, significant vibration of houses, rattling of windows, and loud noise from the flare.” It must have been terrifying.

The application also alleges that this incident caused a fire at the facility and at another petrochemical facility next door.

Despite the fire, the facility did not follow protocol and make a CVECO code 9 call to notify local fire authorities. And despite receiving complaints about the incident, the ministry did not conduct air monitoring during the incident. Residents don’t know what toxins were emitted.

Again, will the Premier order an investigation and get these families the answers they deserve?

Hon. Chris Ballard: Thank you for the follow-up. I can assure the member opposite that there are 11 ministry monitoring stations that are real-time. They operate 24/7, and officials and experts can very quickly find out what’s going on.

But the question is around this incident, and I will make some inquiries in my ministry about this specific one so that we can follow up.

But let me talk about what has happened in Aamjiwnaang and Sarnia itself over the past few years. Let’s talk about some of the positive things that are happening—

Interjection.

Hon. Chris Ballard: I’m sure the member who represents Lambton-Sarnia would be happy to agree. Sulphur dioxide levels are down by 64%, nitrogen dioxide down by 23%, and particulate matter down by 43%. We’re taking action.

Relations avec les autochtones / Indigenous relations

M. Shafiq Qaadri: Ma question est pour le ministre des Relations avec les Autochtones et de la Réconciliation, the Honourable David Zimmer.

La réconciliation est une priorité pour notre gouvernement, and we are committed to building a society where future generations can live in peace and harmony on lands that we share across this country.

Mr. Speaker, with your permission, I’d just like to commend Premier Wynne parenthetically here, and indeed all members of the Legislature, for their affirmation of social justice and equity across Canada given the latest example of Trumpism in the province of Quebec.

I was pleased to hear this week that the minister spoke at the opening of the medicine garden on land donated by Manulife right in the heart of Toronto at 200 Bloor Street East. This garden is especially significant as it is the first urban garden created through collaboration with the private sector, rather than by indigenous organizations themselves.

My question is this: Can the minister please tell us more about this garden and its significance for reconciliation in Canada?

Hon. David Zimmer: I thank the member for Etobicoke North for that question.

In his speech at the release of the Truth and Reconciliation report, Justice Murray Sinclair, now Senator Sinclair, said, “Reconciliation is not an aboriginal problem—it is a Canadian problem. It involves all of us.”

Speaker, our government knows this to be true, and that’s why we are committed to working towards reconciliation and supporting indigenous cultural revitalization together with our indigenous partners, the private sector, and indeed, all Ontarians. We know that we, as a government, cannot do it alone.

That’s why I want to thank Manulife for working with us on this project. It is an example of corporate responsibility, in the best sense of the word. By hosting this garden, Manulife is demonstrating that we all have a role to play in reconciliation—government, the public and the corporate world.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Shafiq Qaadri: It is, of course, essential that we all work together towards reconciliation. Through our government’s landmark action plan The Journey Together, our government is committing more than $250 million towards reconciliation over the next three years. It’s a shame that the opposition parties voted against the 2017 budget which contained this historic commitment.

Speaker, as Oscar Wilde said, no man can escape his past. I would remind the Leader of the Opposition that while he was a federal MP in the Harper government, he voted against implementing the Kelowna Accord, which would have invested billions in First Nations health and education; he voted for a budget that cut $172 million promised to indigenous-language protection; and he voted to impose mandatory minimums that disproportionately affect indigenous peoples.

Would the minister tell us more about our government’s approach to reconciliation?

Hon. David Zimmer: Speaker, instead of voting against landmark investments in First Nations health and education, we are making those investments. We are committed to closing gaps and removing barriers. We’ve committed $150 million through The Journey Together alone to improve indigenous health and education.

Instead of cutting funding to indigenous-language projects, we are investing $30 million over the next three years to support the revitalization of indigenous culture and languages.

Instead of voting for mandatory minimum sentences, some of which the Supreme Court of Canada has ruled as cruel and unusual punishment, we have committed $45 million to projects that will make our justice system truly culturally relevant and appropriate. That includes restorative justice programs and indigenous-specific victim services.

Mr. Speaker, through meaningful actions such as these, our government will continue to build trusting, respectful and mutually beneficial relationships with our indigenous partners.

Cancer treatment

Ms. Laurie Scott: My question is for the Premier. While cancer research continues to develop new and innovative treatments, the cost of these treatments continues to rise. The result is that effective breast cancer treatments remain stalled in a price negotiation with pharmaceutical companies. The existing drug approval process simply lacks transparency, accountability and deadlines. As a result, it’s taking too much time for metastatic breast cancer patients to access new treatments.

Ontario is one of Canada’s lead negotiators at the pan-Canadian Pharmaceutical Alliance and the chair of the Canadian Association of Provincial Cancer Agencies. So my question to the Premier is: Will the Ontario government take the lead and call for transparency, accountability and deadlines in this drug negotiation process?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I thank the member for the question.

To all of the advocates who are here today, thank you so much for what you do. It’s very important that we have that interaction between people who are in the community on the front line and government.

Mr. Speaker, we are taking a leadership role. The Minister of Health, today actually, is at a federal-provincial table meeting with his counterpart ministers across the country and with the federal Minister of Health.

We will continue to work to make sure that we make progress on this pan-Canadian enterprise, because that is the leverage that we have—to work with all of our provinces and work with the federal government to make sure that we get the best outcomes for people who are struggling with this disease.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Laurie Scott: Mr. Speaker, our province does need to take the lead and address the issues with the interprovincial government body.

In similar jurisdictions, as the Minister of Health knows, these bodies are more transparent and have timely benchmarks in the negotiation process. If the price of a drug is too high or it doesn’t meet certain conditions, the players at the table know what needs to change and they can get back to negotiating.

Unfortunately, Ontario cancer patients, like the ladies with us in the gallery today, are often left waiting in the dark for a year, or even more. Many patients don’t even live long enough to be able to get the treatments they need and deserve. That’s simply not acceptable, Mr. Speaker.

Again to the Premier: Will the government take the lead quickly and help fix this process so that patients can get access to life-saving treatments before it’s too late?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Again, I will say to the member opposite and to the advocates who have joined us today, Mr. Speaker, that the whole point of us being involved in the pan-Canadian discussion of those negotiations is exactly what the member opposite is talking about: to make sure that those life-saving drugs are available to patients in a timely way, that they have the information they need and that they are affordable, because the question of sustainability is extremely important.

In fact, the Canadian Association of Provincial Cancer Agencies represents our provincial agencies which have been asked by the minister to tackle the tough issues of sustainability. The whole point, as I say, Mr. Speaker, of us being involved is to make sure that those medications are available, to make sure that we continue to have among the best outcomes in the world on cancer recovery and treatment.

We will continue to play a leadership role. Again, I appreciate all of the support and the work that happens here and outside of government.

Environmental protection

Mr. Wayne Gates: My question is to the Premier. On July 2, I sent this government a letter asking them to investigate the concerns of the dumping of raw sewage into the Niagara River. It took this government almost one full month and another letter to even reply. When the Minister of the Environment finally replied, he simply told me this was an American issue.

Since that time, raw sewage has been dumped again into the Niagara River a number of times. Mr. Speaker, there is no stop sign or fence in the middle of the Niagara River. It connects the US to Ontario. It is a shared natural resource. Residents want to know if damage was done to our river and how to stop these deliberate spills from occurring.

When can the residents expect the Premier to take this issue seriously, stand up for our environment and investigate these spills?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I appreciate the question. I know the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change is also going to want to speak to it in the supplementary.

But I want to just let the member opposite know that, in fact, this weekend—I will be leaving tomorrow for Windsor—I am co-chairing with Governor Rick Snyder of Michigan the Great Lakes Governors’ and Premiers’ meeting. We will be talking about a variety of issues concerning the Great Lakes and the Great Lakes watershed.

It is of primary importance to me that we work on things like invasive species, pollution issues and the algal blooms in Lake Erie. Those are all issues where there has been some progress, but there is much more we have to do. At this moment, I would say more than at other points in our history, it’s important that we make it clear to our partners in the United States that we are working with them and we will continue to partner as we fight the environmental causes that are—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Supplementary?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Supplementary.

Mr. Wayne Gates: Again to the Premier: The governor of New York acted on this issue right away. The DEC found that the sewage contaminated the water in the Niagara River. In fact, more than five of these sewage spills have occurred since I first wrote to the Liberal government.

Yesterday, the New York water board said they were sorry about the spills, but without necessary infrastructure improvements, after every heavy rain, this could continue for five years. We want to know what this is doing to the quality of our water in Ontario and how it will affect our environment.

When can the residents expect the Premier to show the same leve