ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publl•IHKI undflr the euthority of The Honourable D. Jame• We/ding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 54A - 2:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 26 APRIL, 1983. Printed by the Offiee Of the o-s Prinfef. Province of Mllltiloba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM , Ho n. A.R. (P ete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON , Steve BANM AN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (D ave) BROW N, Arno ld BU CKLASCHUK , John M. CARROLL, Q. C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Ho n. Jay DESJARDINS , Ho n. Laurent DODI CK, Doreen DOERN , Russell DOLIN, Mary Bet h DOWNE Y, James E. DRIEDGER , Alb ert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Ho n. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON , Gary FOX, Peter GOU RLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAH AM, Harry HAMMO ND, Gerrie HARAPI AK, Harry M. HARPER , Eli jah HEMPHIL L, Ho n.

Maureen HY DE, Llo yd JOHN STON, J. Frank KOSTY RA, Ho n. Euge ne KOV NATS, Abe LECUY ER, Gerard LYON, Q. C., Ho n. Sterlin g MACKLING , Q. C., Ho n. Al MALIN OW SKI, Donald M. MANNE SS, Cla yton McKE NZIE, J. Wally MERCIER , Q. C., G.W.J . (G erry) NOR DMAN , Rurik (R ic) OLES ON, Charlotte ORCHA RD, Donald PAWLEY, Q. C., Ho n. Howard R. PARASIU K, Ho n. Wils o n PENNER , Q. C., Ho n. Roland PHILLI PS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN , John RANSOM , A. Brian SANTOS , Conrad SCHROED ER, Ho n. Vi c SCOTT, Don SHER MAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH , Ho n. Mu riel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. UR US KI, Ho n. Bill US KIW, Ho n.

Samuel WALDI NG, Ho n. D. James Constituency Ste. Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boni face Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Ch arleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 26 April, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYE R by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER, Ho n. J. Walding : Presenting Petitions . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMI TTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, the Commit tee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for Wolseley, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Annual Report for the year 1981- 82 for the Communities Economic Development Fund. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a further report on spring run-off conditions and prospects dated this day. The Assiniboine River - the river is rising downstream of Virden and falling upstream of Virden.

The largest rise in stage since yesterday morning was at Brandon, where the river rose seven-tenths of a foot. The river was still below bank-full at all points this morning. The latest forecasts sugge sts that the river may remain just below bank-full even in the Virden and Griswold areas where minor flooding had been expected. No flooding is expected elsewhere along the mainstream. Some flooding has taken place on tributaries of the Assiniboine River, namely, the Oak Riv er, Birdtail Creek and the Little Saskatchewan River. The Souris River - river levels are either steady or declining very slowly.

With normal weather conditions, a gradual decline in water levels will continue. Valley flooding from the international boundary to Ha rtney will continue until late May. In the Westlake-Dauphin-Swan River area, all streams in the area have peaked and are declining. Many streams peaked on the weekend. The Swan River and the lower Valley River peaked yesterday. Considerable flooding took place on the Wilson River, the Valley River and the Swan River. There was little or no flooding on the Whitemud River, the Turtle River, the Ochre River and the Vermilion River.

However, some diking and ice blasting was required on April 22nd to prevent flooding in the Gladstone area. Peak stages and flows on the Wilson, Valley and Swan Rivers .were similar to those of 19 79, that is close to the maximum spring peak on record. On the Swan River ice jams downstream of the Town of Swan River resulted in somewhat increased peak stages. Many other smaller streams flowing off the Duck Mountain experienced flooding as predicted. At the Shellmouth Reservoir, the water level rose about one foot since yesterday. The inflow is presently near the peak.

There is sufficient storage available to prevent flooding in the Shellmouth-Mill wood area. The Portage Diversion. The inflow to the Portage Reservoir is rising. More flow has been allowed to go down the river in recent days while the diversion flow has been kept relatively constant near 1, 200 cfs. Diversion flows will be gradually increased in the next five days or so in order to maintain the river flow downstream of Portage la Prairie below 10,000 cfs. With respect to weather, the precipitation from the current weather disturbance has been quite light and has not significantly affected the run-off situation.

While some additional precipitation is antici pated today, amounts should be too small to be of concern. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 15 students of Grade 11 standing from the Westgate Mennonite Collegiate. They are under the direction of Mr. Rempel. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Wolseley. On behalf of all of the members I welcome you here this afternoon. SPEAKER'S RULING MR.

SPEAKER: Also before we reach Oral Questions I have a statement to read to the House. On Monda y, March 7th, the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain raised a point of order concerning remarks made by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture who was commenting on words spoken by the Honourable Member for Arthur during the Throne Speech debate. After several other members had spoken to the same point, I took the matter under advisement in order to review Hansard.

In perusing Hansard I found that the words objected to appear on Page 554 where the Honourable Minister of Agriculture said, "But to make a suggestion that we should write off all farm debts in the Province of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, is ludicrous. It is not only 2068

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 ludicrous, it is maddening, Mr. Speaker." Other allusions by the Minister to the same topic, on the same page, were made in the form of rhetorical questions to which no objection was made. A careful study of the remarks made by th e Ho nourable Member for Arthur contained several references to farm debt and the Loan Gu arantee Program, but I cannot find any statement or suggestion by the Honourable Member tor Arthur that all farm debt in the province should be written off. Although the statement of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture might be his

interpretation or his personal belief of what was said, it is not supported by the printed word. I must therefore require the Honourable Minister of Agriculture to withdraw the relevant remark. The Honourable Minister. HON. B. UR US KI: Mr. Speak er, there's no doubt in my mind, having heard your ruling, I will abide by it and I withdraw the remark from the honourable member. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBE RS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. If members are prepared to proceed, Oral Questions. ORAL QUESTIONS Intervention against PWA MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. In view of the fact that the province supported the application of PWA with a condition that there be six flights a week, which is an intervention, and in view of the fact that the province, after further investigation I have been led to believe that they wrote a letter withdrawing that condition, and in view of the fact it was reported in the Brandon Sun as early as last Saturday, I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the First Minister could advise this House if the CTC has acknowledged the fact that the province has withdrawn that condition. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY : Mr. Speak er, it's my understanding that the Air Transport Committee acknowledged receipt and the withd rawal of that

part icular condition pertaining to six days on February 4th of 19 83. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speak er, as I mentioned, it was disaster that it was there in the first place, but in view of the fact that Air Canada and CP Air has still got an intervention against the PWA application, not wanting the withdrawal of six flights a week, and in view of the tact that if PWA has to abide by that intervention it could be harmful to the service to Brandon and they would lose the competition that they have, and it would be beneficial to those airlines, has the Min ister of Transpor tation arranged to have representation supporting the PW application because of the interventions by CP Air and Air Canada? MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Transportation. HON. S. US KIW: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Transport , Transportation Division is in constant communication and in touch with PWA on this issue, and indeed, with the Government of Canada. We have intervened in a way that is supportive to PWA and we've met with them on more than one occasion. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speak er, in view of the tact that if the CTC were to approve the application with the condition that there is six flights a week which would mean that Brandon would have to have six flights or nothing - that's very serious - is the Minister going to hire legal representation as the previous government did because there was an intervention to the PWA application before and make sure that the province's position is well known, well represented for the people of Brandon and Western Manitoba. HON. S. US KIW: Well again, Mr. Speaker, I believe the question has been ans wered .

We have ha d an acknowledgement from the CTC with respect to our intervention. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister gave me that information that the intervention was withdrawn. My question to the Minister of Transport, is he going to have legal representation prepared to go before the CTC to show the province's support for the PW application to have permanent service in Brandon? HON. S. US KIW: Mr. Speaker, I again want to reaffirm that we are in constant communication with PWA and are proceeding in a way which they and we believe prudent at this point in time. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it was reported in the Br andon Sun that the CTC were simply considering extending the present application. I would ask the Minister, is he going to oppose any extension and let them know that the Province of Manitoba wants to have a permanent route servicing Brandon by PWA? HON. S. US KIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think the member should appreciate that we want to work in harmony with the airline in question. We would not want to move unilaterally on any of these points without a consultative process that has taken place first. We are doing that on a current basis. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister has given these answers and the answers that he gave in Estima tes the other night, does. he realize, and does the First Minister realize that PWA at the present time can take your reservation if you want to fly after May 30th, but they can't guarantee a flight, and this is becoming a real inconvenience to the people of western Manitoba? I would say that if the province wants to work with the airline, I would ask the Minister if he has pressured and had consultation with the airline to get this presentation done to the CTC? HON. S. US KIW: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure the Member for Sturgeon Creek doesn't want the province to take 2069

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 any responsible approach to this question. We have the interests of Brandon and the area at heart on this issue and we have been working quite closely with the people involved, namely, the airline, and they are, in my opinion at least, satisfied with our intervention on their behalf. Manfor operation - The Pas MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Mini ster in charge of Manfor and would ask him, in light of fact that the Federal Government has targeted some 100 large projects for which they say they will receive a fair amount of capital funding, has Manfor been identified as one of those projects by the Federal Government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON . W. PARAS IUK: Mr. Speaker , I can 't speak definitively for the Federal Government. I do know that we have indicated to them that we believe strongly that Manfor should be in that group.

I don't know if they've made all that material public; we do know that they have made prior commitments. Three Ministers had made fairly strong comm itments tha t the Federal Go vernment would be putting money into Manfor. I would expect that if they are allocating money for western development that those commitments made by three Federal Ministers then have a good chance of being honoured. MR. R.

BANMAN: In light of the fact that the Minister is optimistic that this will be one of the projects that the Federal Government will be funding, I wonder if he could inform the House whether or not there are any nego tia tions now between Ma nfor or any private company with regard to a possible joint venture or sale of the company. In other words, have some of the proposals that have been dis cussed previously with some of the companies that were interested in joint venturing or purchasing that particular facility, have these negotiations been revived? HON. W. PARASIU K: Mr.

Speak er, I indicated a few days ago in the Ho us e that we are waiting the completion of one component on the studies. It's being done by federal people. As soon as we have that completed then we'll do what we said we would do before, namely contact some of the companies and inform them as to where exactly we are with those development proposals. MR. R. BANMAN: Another supplementary question.

I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether the Federal Government has indicated any time frames in which they would be announcing this particular project being included in the sorne-100 projects that they're dealing with at present. HON. W. PARASIU K: Not yet, Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure whether the Federal Government has developed specific time frames for the entire 100 projects and any other projects that they might be announcing over the course of the next two or three months. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, along the same line, could the Minister indicate if it's within his knowledge - we would understand if it's not at this stage - whether or not any proposed federal grant with respect to Manfor would come first of all under the old existing program of mill upgrading that the Federal Go vernment has had in effect in Eastern Canada for some time; that's No. 1, and 2, whether or not such a federal grant would be contingent upon a matching provincial grant and/ or the involvement of a private sector company in a joint venture as was being discussed with them some two years ago? HON. W. PARASIU K: Mr.

Speaker, when I had discussed this matter with three Federal Ministers, they indicated that would be corning from the mill modernization monies that had been spent in Eastern Canada. Since the Bud get the y are allo cating some mone y for employment projects. It may be that we can get money from both funds, but I can't say definitively at this particular stage, nor can I comment definitively on whatever requirements there might be. We certainly had been talking to the Federal Government and are conducting the study under the assumption that we would be getting money from the Mill Modernization Program.

If there will be further supplements to that program, of course, they will be most welcome here in Manitoba. Bankruptcies - farmers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOW NEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the fact, Mr.

Speak er, that every time one picks up a newspaper as one did in the Free Press today and saw the warnings that bankruptcies are on the increase and will be for some time; in view of the fact that last week I asked the Min ister of Agricultur e to convene a national convention of Ministers of Agriculture to focus on the problems that the farm community are having, and have to this point received an acknowledgement of some of the Ministers that it would be an acceptable approach; will this Minister convene a meeting so that they can deal with the farm problems and let the farm people know that somebody who is elected to office and appointed as government Ministers do care about them and are dealing with the problem, Mr.

Speaker? Will he convene that meeting? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. UR US KI: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for his question and I would respond in this way. We certainly have no difficulty in convening such a meeting, Mr. Speaker, in order that other provinces 2070

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 might inform themselves as to the actions we, in Manitoba, are taking and, in fact, we would hope that we would be able to bring to bear on our federal count erparts greater pressure to provide fur ther assistance for the farm community facing financial difficulties. We would have hoped that the federal budget recently tabled would have provided some further assistance to the farming community who are facing great problems.

Sir, I can say that, again to the honourable member, as I said last week, we were the first province in this country to embark on an Interest Rate Relief Program which has assisted close to 800 farmers in this province who are facing financial difficulty, although we have not been able to help every family farm in difficulty we have put into place two Income Stabilization Programs on beef and on hogs, in terms of dealing with long-term stability for the red meat sector.

In the short-term, Sir, we have provided a Loan Gu arantee Program to assist farmers, over the next couple of years, who are in difficulty of obtaining operat ing credit, a $10 0 millio n Loan Gu aran tee Program. As well, Mr. Speaker, we have put into place a review committee to try and deal with some of the difficu lties that farmers have with their fina ncial institutions wher e commun ications have ceased between farmer and their institutions. MR. J. DOW NEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Mini ster of Agriculture takes great pride in standing up and telling the people, through the question period, of all the great successes. Mr. Speaker, I would ask him then to go to the farm community and speak to those farmers who have been turned down by his program people. A further question, Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister of A9riculture answer the letter that I asked him to report to us, or give us the terms of reference to the Appeal Board that I wrote him last week, after he asked us for names for the Appeal Board, will he tell us what the terms of reference are so members on this side of the House can provide names so as to enable us to make recommendations to the resolving of some of the farm difficulties. I ask for it in good faith, Mr. Speaker, and I have not received anything from him yet; we would like to provide some names, Mr. Speak er. HO N. B. UR US KI: Mr.

Speak er, I apologize to the honourable member for that. In fact, I did, after the question period the day that he raised that question, instruct staff to have those terms of reference sent to the honourable member, the Agriculture critic of the Conservative party, if he has not received it I'll make sure that that copy reaches him immediately this afternoon so that they can have them. MR. J. DOW NEY: Mr. Speak er, what kind of a Minister of Agriculture do we have, how sincere is he?

He said two minutes ago that he'd already established the committee, now he's saying he's going to give us the terms of reference so we can provide names? Why, Mr. Speaker, did he not provide us with that information last week? Mr. Speaker, further to that, what was the outcome of the meeting today that he had with that review committee dealing with the one farm bankruptcy in Manitoba that is admitted by the Farm Survival Group that they shouldn't have got involved with to start with, and that's the only one he's moved to save, Mr. Speaker. Why didn't he give us that information last week, Mr.

Speaker, and what was the outcome of the meeting today that he had with that Appeal Board? HO N. B. UR US KI: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member recalls last week, questions raised for almost 40 minutes by the opposition, asked me what we were going to do to resolve the situation that the Portage farmer was involved in. I indicated we were prepared to assist in a review, Mr. Speaker, and, as a result, we did attempt to set up a review panel who have not, at this point in time . . . A MEMBER: That wasn't today. HO N. B. UR US KI: . . . Mr. Speaker, the member quotes from a newspaper

article which, Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure is that accurate. I did not meet with the review panel, but I understand that the review panel has made recommendations, both to the farm family and to the lending institutions and, on that case, at the insistence of members opposite, we did attempt to put in that review process to see how it works and to see what can be done. Mr. Speaker, the decision as to what will happen in this case still rests with the institution and the farm family themselves. On the issue of the providing of the terms of reference, I did, Mr.

Speaker, instruct my staff to send that over and, as the member well knows, that we have been on the road, in terms of dealing with another very important issue to Western Canada, and that is the hearings on the Crow rate situation. So, Mr. Speaker, I know staff will be listening to the question period, they will have those terms of reference over to the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I thank you.

In response to the replies to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture, that he has already put this mediation board or review panel into place, can he tell the House and the farmers of this province who is the chairman? HO N. B. UR US KI: Mr. Speaker, as indicated earlier in questions to the honourable members, we expect that there will be more than one panel involved on a regional basis. All we have done, on the basis of recommendations made from farm organizations, we asked our ag reps throughout the province to supply names and, on the basis of that, we set up this one review panel.

That is not going to be the only review panel that will be involved in this situation. Mr. Speaker, I'll get the names of the three farmers who are involved; I do not have the names of the farmers at hand. SOME HO NOUR ABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HO N. B. URUS KI: I don't know whether the honourable members want to hear an answer or not. A MEMBER: u don't know the answer. 2071

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I don't think I've ever seen such confusion in all my life as has been coming out of the Minister of Agriculture's mouth and this government. He doesn't know who the chairman is going to be, he says there may be three panels. Could I ask him, again, and I've raised this, I think, for the last week or more, since the 14 th, when is this board or this panel ready to go to work? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HO N. B. UR US KI: Mr.

Speaker, I told the honourable members opposite last week that there would likely be panels set up in every region. We have not set up those panels, other than dealing with the situation that the honourable members opposite demanded that we do something to assist that farmer, and we have moved on that situation. The final determination, as to how many panels and who will be nominated, we will and want to get recommendations from the honourable members opposite, as well, as I've indicated. But, Mr.

Speaker, there was no indication at that point in time that there would only be one panel in the Province of Manitoba. The work of the panel is to deal with one spe cific area; to assist farmers who are having difficulties with their financial institutions and will not be the end-all and cure-all of any bankruptcies or any foreclosures that institutions may have because we do not kno w when the se matters occur in the farm community until, of course, court orders are issued and receivers are appointed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOW NEY: On a point of order, Mr. Speak er.

The Minister made reference to the fact that the opposition put pressure on him to solve the problem of one farmer in Manitoba. I believe the reference was made to the one farmer at Portage. That was not the case, Mr. Speaker. We did not pressure him to solve the problem of that one farmer at Portage where it was even obvious to the farm survival group that the individual was in too deep. We were pressuring him, Mr. Speaker, to solve the problems of all the farmers as he promised to do prior to the election in 19 81.

The point of order is, he cannot leave it on the record that we pressured him into dealing with that one farm situation, Mr. Speaker. I want him to correct it. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the honourable member for that clarification. The Honourable Member for Swan River. Emergency Measures Organization flood damage MR. D. GOUR LAY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister who is responsible for EMO. Has the Minister received an update from his officials with respect to flood damage to farms along the Swan River, the Woody River and the Birch River in the Swan Valley area. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mini ster of Government Services. HO N. J. PLOH MAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, we have been on top of the situation. EMO are certainly co-o rdinating information from the Department of Agriculture, Department of Natural Resources and the Department of Highways. We have received information and reports on a regular basis from all of those, Mr. Speaker. They are certainly providing information and monitoring the situation. We have found from the reports that I have received that certainly the matter was not as desperate as it seemed to be inferred by news reports.

There are some minor dislocations from homes that took place but only for a short time. No families are in jeopardy at this time. There are a few farms that are isolated, perhaps up to 30 or 40 that are isolated farm yards at this time which will be monitored through the local officials, through reeves and councillors, and if there needs to be assistance to them that will certainly be provided thr ough various departments. This is co-ord inated through EMO. In terms of the roof-top rescues that were covered on the news, again we have had no evidence that took place either.

We understand that an individual was surveying the flood situation from the top of his roof, but certainly was not there for a rescue. I would say that we will continue to monitor the situation, Mr. Speaker, and we will have more information coming and will over the next few days and weeks assess the amount of damage and then determine what action has to be taken at that point. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister for his answer. I would also direct a further question to him. Has any of the municipal officials in the area req ue sted assistance from Emergenc y Measures?

A MEMBER: They don't know who to contact. HO N. J. PLOH MAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, they have not req uested spe cific assistance for any emergency situations that have arisen because of the flood over the last day or so. We've had a number of things take place over the last number of weeks. Certainly the Canadian Wheat Board was notified and asked to have cars available to clean out bins in the Swan River area, clean out the elevators so that farmers could haul grain that was in bins, excess grain, so it would not be affected by the flood. That has taken place over this last while.

We have also had sandbags delivered to the area where necessary. There were 40,000 bags delivered to the Dauphin area over the past weekend in case they were needed. So, we have kept in con tact with reeves and councillors in the area and if assistance is required we are prepared to react to it. I might add as well that, we'll provide a complete update of information at a news conference following the question period. Assessment Review hearings MR. D. GOUR LA Y: Mr. Speak er, I have a new question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

In view of the fact that the credibility of Standing Committees of the Legislature have been seriously 2072

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 eroded due to the inaction of the Minister of Municipal Affairs to reconvene the Municipal Affairs Committee relative to dealing with the submissions that were received by the committee some months ago; and in view of the fact that there is a general economic depression in the Province of Manitoba; and due to the fact that the assessment question has tax-saving implications for many Manitobans; I wonder if the Minister can please today tell us when he will reconvene the Municipal Affairs Committee so they can get on with the recommendations of the Assessment Review Committee? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HO N. A. ADAM: Mr. Speak er, without accepting the commentary that was made by the Member for Swan River in that there's been a loss of credibility and so on is nothing but rhetoric on the part of the honourable member. I want to say that a considerable amount of work has been undertaken over the last summer months and over the last year, for that matter, since we have received the report from the Assessment Review Committee. That work is still continuing, Mr. Speaker.

We are at the present time doing another study in another school division and that information will be coming forward, I expect, in the not-too-distant future, and the staff is compiling all this information and putting it together in a form that the committee can deal with. When that information is all gathered up from all these sources that we have, we will be calling the committee together, Mr. Speak er, and we will be doing that in due course and as soon as possible. MR . D. GOUR LAY: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Can the Minister confirm that his staff are already busily occupied supplying information for the Federal Minister, Mr. Pepin, so that he can proceed with some payments under his proposal to farmers? Is the Minister so occupied at this time with that kind of data for the Federal Government, that he can't pro·ceed with the Assessment Review Recommendations at this time? HO N. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I want to advise the House and the honourable member, that any information tha t we will be comp iling for the Department of Agriculture, the federal department, will not interfere with any of the work of the assessment people. We will be putting on additional staff which will be paid by the federal people to compile that information for them. That has no effect at all on our study and our assessing of the Manitoba Assessment Review Committee Report. We will be contacting the federal people advising them that we will be providing that information that they require. That is where it's at at this stage.

We have not put in place any extra staff to compile that information. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOUR LAY: I have another question to the First Minister. I wonder if the First Minister could give us an undertaking that legislation will be brought in this Session, or next Session at the very latest, dealing with the very important question of the assessment problems that have been with us for a number of years and these recommendations are with us and your Minister of Municipal Affairs is not moving quickly enough to get on with this serious problem. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nourable First Minister. HO N. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, it regrettable that the Memb er for Swan River doesn't appear to have confidence in the Minister of Municipal Affairs. The Min ister of Mun icipal Affair s has been working industriously on this particular matter of municipal reform.

Indeed I think that members on this side of the House have been most impressed with the time consumed by the Minister of Municipal Affairs in working in co-operat ion with the muni cip al people and Manitobans in general, towards ensuring that there indeed be introduc ed legisla tive chan ges leading towards municipal assessment reform. Development north of Portage Avenue MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs. Can he confirm, Mr.

Speaker, that the major components of the federal-provincial proposal for redevelopment north of Portage Avenue, those being the National Research Council Centre and the CBC building, were actually referred to in the Core Area Initiative Agreement entered into in 1981 , whereby the Federal Gov ernment undertook the foll owing complementary programs to develop the CBC- owned St.

Paul's College site and agreed that additional federal or federally funded facilities are anticipated during the life of the agreement, and could include significant facilities involving research or high technology fields, such as a National Research Council Centre? Could he confirm that those were complementary undertakings by the Federal Government in the Core Area Initiative Agreement? I do point out for the record that the provi nce and the city also had compleme ntar y undertakings. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HO N. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes I can confirm that both the CBC, and in a general way, the NRC site were mentioned as part of the background material to the Core Area Initiative. There was no specific commitment made with respect to either of th ose facilit ies and I'm pleased that the Federal Government has decided to finally move on both of those projects in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speak er, can the Minister of Urban Affairs then give us his assurance that the Federal 2073

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 Minister and the Federal Government will proceed pursuant to their undertaking in the Core Area Initiative Agreement, 1981 to construct those facilities, without incurring any further obligation on the part of the city or the Provincial Government? HO N. E. KOSTRYA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I can't force the Federal Government to do specific activities in the Province of Manitoba or in the City of Winnipeg specifically.

The position of the province is that it will continue to work with the Federal Government to ensure that the Federal Government activities in the Province of Manitoba are such that they will be of benefit with respect to job creation, with respect to urban renewal, and I will give that commitment to the member that this government will continue to press the Federal Government to have such activities in the province that would complement the position of the province with respect to providing jobs for Manitobans and with respect to urban renewal. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speake r, we are ju st as concerned about jobs and employment in Manitoba as members opposite. What we are concerned about is that the Provincial Government not be blackmailed by the Federal Government Minister with respect to this matter. The Federal Government Minister has indicated that he has alternative plans for the existing arena in the City of Winnipeg, should the Federal-Provincial proposal for a new arena downtown be proceeded with. Could the Urban Affairs Minister indicate to us what those alternative plans are for the existing arena should a new arena be built downtown? HO N. E.

KOS TYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I can't answer that question; I do not know what alternate plans may be for the present arena if an additional or another arena or sportsplex is built in the City of Winnipeg so I can't comment on that question. Mosquito fogging MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of the Environment.

In view of the oncoming warm spring weather and some activities that are taking place, I wonder if the Minister could inform us if he intends to maintain a veto on any application by the City of Winnipeg for a permit for aerial fogging for mosquito control. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HO N. J. COWAN: As the Member for Tuxedo is aware, the City of Winnipeg can undertake spraying programs and the response to those programs on the part of the Provincial Government and the Minister responsible for the Environment is limited.

What I do intend to do in regard to that entire situation is to make a statement within the next couple of weeks reg arding the gover nment response to the Cl ean Environment Commission hearings which were held on Mosquito Control Programs and incorporate it into that will be our response to the many replies which we have had as a result of mailing that report to municipalities and interested individuals in this province and asking for their comments and suggestions. So I believe we'll be advan cing a comprehensive program for review, discussion and consideration in the very near future in that regard.

That matter, I can assure the mem ber, will be addressed in that program. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, because there has been some discussion in reference to the possibility of this Minister maintaining a veto, and in view of the fact that the city staff have a great deal more experience in scientific expertise in dealing with mosquito control than does the Minister or his staff, on what basis could he justify superimposing his judgment and veto over the city's decision on this? HO N. J.

COWAN: I think the member misunderstands the situation entirely and if I can just correct his perception of the history, I have in fact never imposed a veto in that instance. I do not believe that he will find on record any categorical statement by myself that I intend to impose a veto, nor do I think he'll find any suggestion that I intend to impose a veto.

What he will find is that this Provincial Government in a very open and public way had asked the Clean Environment Commission to undertake a review of this situation, had asked for a report, had received a report, had made it public, had distributed it to the public, had asked for responses, have received responses, and now is in the process of making a comprehensive statement which will in fact address that issue. But I'm not at this time indicating that it will address it in any one particular way, nor have I in the past indicated that I intended to veto any such permits. Universities two-tiered tuition MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speak er, my question is for the Minister of Education. I understand that at last evening's Board of Regents meeting at the University of Winnipeg, a decision was made to go ahead with the two-tiered system of tuition fee increase which will result in costs increasing for students well beyond the intended guideline that the Minister put forward of 9.5 percent. I wonder what, if anything, she intends to do about that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HO N. M. HE MPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, no, I think I don't have to take that question under notice. I think I answered it quite fully yesterday when I indicated that I, as members of the university community, have been concerned for some time over the addition of a wide range of incidental fees that are being tacked onto some of the courses and the impact of those fees on students. The moves that I have taken to date, the moves are two - I described them yesterday - I have instructed the Student Aid Branch to include incidental 2074

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 fees as legitimate costs to be offset by the Student Aid Branch as are tuition fees, so that all students who are in need and who are qualified to get support from the Student Aid Branch will also be able to get support that will completely offset the incidental fees that they are being charged. In addition, I have asked the Universities Grants Commission to sit down with the universities and to study this difficult issue, one that has some disparity and differences within each university, within the courses and programs, and report back to me on this issue. MR. G.

FI LMON : Well, will the Min ister now acknowledge that this kind of double increase in one year renders her political decision last year for a freeze to be a complete sham, and in fact universities are putting through a two-year increase in one year just to get even for what the Minister did last year? HO N. M. HE MPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to suggest that the universities in Manitoba are receiving support from this government during a difficult year that is unparallelled by any other province in the country, and that even with the increases of tuition, which we asked to be kept at the 9.5 range, we still continue to have almost the lowest tuition fee rates in the country. We must remember that what we were looking at and the commun ication tha t was coming from the universities prior to our communication to them was that we were facing tuition fee increases in the range of 20 to 25 percent, Mr. Speak er.

There would have been and could have been increases in the incidental fees at the same time by indicating that the tuition fees were not to go beyond 9.5 percent. I said yesterday I was disappointed that they had not followed through with this princi ple with the incidental fees, but the combined effect of the two of them I believe is either 10.4 or 10.8, Mr.

Speaker, a far cry from, I think - was it 20 percent that was brought in the first year when the - (I nterjection) - so I think it's clear that both the level of funding that has been given by this government and the communication and the limitations put on the tuition fee increases are going to give the universities in this province more money to do their jobs than any other universities in the coun try. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HO N. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Community Services and Corrections, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carri ed, and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Education, and the Honourable Member for Burrows for the Department of Hig hways and Transportation. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR.

CHAIRMAN, C. Santo s: Committee please come to order. Except for some answers to certain questions, we are now starting with 2.(a)(1) , Management Services and Engineering, Operations and Contracts, Salaries and Wages. The Member for Pembina. We still have to take up the questions that you have left behind. The Minister is ready to provide some information. MR. D. ORCHARD: Fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HO N. S. US KIW : Mr.

Chairman, the member asked me to table some information and I have two documents here, one of which has to do with the handicapped program, transportation of handicaps; and the other has to do with the program of the Transportation Division. I can leave a copy of each of those for the Member for Pembina. Also the member wanted me to indicate to him at what stage he could discuss the appointment of W. Janssen. That comes under the Transportation Division, as well, so he can discuss it. We'll accept that since we took that as notice. We should have dealt with it before we passed that item, Mr. Chairman . MR.

CH AIRMAN: Honour able Min ister , if this information is tabled, I think the Clerk is entitled to a copy of both documents. HO N. S. US KIW : Ok ay, well we have that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I realize and I thank the Minister for allowing us to go back to Transportation Division to discuss Mr. Janssen. Recent information that has come to light caused me some concern about the Minister's answers, in terms of the Pacific Western application in Brandon. Had I had the information Thursday evening that I have now, I would not have been so kindly to the Minister.

I didn't realize that the Province of Manitoba had filed an intervention in the PWA licence renewal which may, indeed, cause some problems of having that licence for permanent jet service to Brandon renewed. If it were in order for the Minister to accept a few questions on that, as well, I would appreciate it, or we could deal with it in Minister's Salary, whichever he wishes. HO N. S. US KIW : No, we can do it now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister signifies that we can do the questioning now. MR. D.

ORCHARD: The first question I would have is, when was the province's intervention filed with the CTC on the renewal of PWA's jet service licence into Brandon? 2075

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 HO N. S. US KIW : Mr. Chairman, that was on December 10, 1982. MR. D. ORCH ARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maybe I'm think ing along the wrong lines here, but I think I would have considered that to be a fairly important piece of information on the licence renewal, particularly when it appears, and may well appear, to the Canadian Transport Comm ission tha t the Go ver nment of Manitoba is basically siding with Air Canada and GP Air in this licence renewal application which, to me, would be nothing but detrimental to the citizens of Brandon and Westman.

If the Minister would like to offer some clarification I'd certainly appreciate it. HO N. S. US KIW : Well I'm rather confused by the member's comments, in that I don't know where CP and Air Canada comes into this question. We intervened on behalf of PWA and on behalf of the City of Brandon. MR. D.

ORCHARD : Then could the Minister explain the nature of the confusion, wherein citizens of Brandon are rather upset that the Provincial Government - they have the distinct impr ession tha t the Provincial Government is not providing them sufficient backup to assure that their jet service is renewed - how does that confusion come in? HO N. S. US KIW : Mr. Chairman, I really don't what the story is in Brandon. I am led to believe that there was confusion in Brandon on that issue.

That resulted from comments that were made by other than people from the Government of Manitoba, some local initiative that was involved in what I believe was misinformation or a lack of understanding of what the process was. MR. D. ORCH ARD: On that line, could the Minister be specific as to the nature of the intervention made? HO N. S. US KIW : Mr. Chairman, if the member wishes I could read to him specifically what was undertaken.

On December 10th, we expressed the opinion that the level of passenger and cargo traffic carried by Pacific Western Airlines proves conclusively that their licence authorizing PWA to serve Calgary, Brandon and Toronto is and will be required by present and future public convenience, a necessity.

The Government of Manitoba - I am reading an excerpt of our submission - therefore strongly supports PWA's application and requests the Air Transport Commit tee to renew the licence by deleting Condition 4, which in effect states that the licence was issued for an experimental period of two years; and Condition 2, a mandatory stop at Brandon; and Condition 3, six flights per week in each direction should be retained in the licence.

Subsequent to that, on February 4th, and I believe we met with PWA in-be tween, we amended our submission by asking them to withdraw that portion of our int ervention which requested the Air Transport Committee to retain Condition 3, which is the six flights per week. That was acknowledged by telex on February 4th. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, the second intervention which removed the province's desire to have six flights per week was done when? HO N. S. US KIW : On February 4th. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Now, the Minister indicates that the intervention was done in conjunction with PWA and the citizens of Brandon, or in conjunction with that. HO N. S. US KIW : Their interests, yes. MR. D. ORCH ARD: On their interests. Were they in agreement with the condition that you subsequently removed February 4th, or did they have no knowledge that was part of the intervention? HO N. S. US KIW : As I recall it, and my staff can assist me on this if necessary. It was persuant to a meeting that we had with PWA where they wanted us to express a change in that way. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, then, is it fair to say that the December 10th original intervention was done without consultation with PWA? HO N. S. US KIW : That was the basis of our original position, including the six flights. Well, as I understand the scenario, Mr. Chairman, we intervened on behalf of PWA, and on behalf of the service that we deemed was necessary for the community of Brandon, based on the track record to that point in time and the occupancy rate. Subsequent to that, PWA met with us and said we would like you to support us with one minor amendment, which was the

section that we then deleted on February 4th. They were fully familiar with our intervention and content, as I understand it, in each case. We went along with them after they had convinced us that the original position may have been a bit tough on them. It was in the interests of the service that we deemed necessary for the community that we wanted to stick to the first position as far as we could. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is the Minister saying that the December 10th intervention was with full knowledge of Pacific Western Airlines as to the nature of the intervention? HO N. S.

US KIW : Yes, they knew the content of our submission. MR . D. ORCH ARD : Is Air Canada and CP Air intervening, insisting that the six flights per week

schedule be maintained? HO N. S. US KI W: I'm advised that is part of their intervention, yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well then, that is no doubt where the original confusion about the Province of Manitoba and Air Canada and CP Air being together on intervention has no doubt come about. Okay. I know that staff generally have a pretty fair feeling as to how these matters are going before the CTC; they have their information pipeline, does it appear as if the December 10 th int erven tion, and the subsequent amendment on February 4th, are going to lead to a fav ourable decision? Is any further case needed to be made at this time in the department's estimation? 2076

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 HO N. S. US KIW : Well, Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that PWA is, of course, involved in a continuing process on their own behalf. We are also in discussion with PWA. My impression is that they feel that they can handle the current situation, that is, that they're satisfied with what is taking place to date. They are certainly not asking us to do anything at this time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, moving on to the other matter of Mr. Janssen. What's Mr. Janssen's capacity with the Transportation Divison; what's his job description and his salary, plus expenses, if any? HO N. S.

US KIW : I believe the salary range is $47,000, Mr. Chairman. The role is still a role that is advisory to the Minister on a number of issues, including the task force on trucking regulations in Manitoba, and the Crow issue, and a number of other areas. He works interdepartmentally, that is, in the sense that he's on a team with members from other departments on a number of issues and projects aside from these two areas. MR. D. ORCH ARD: I take it that Mr. Janssen is not an Order-in-Council appointment but is still being retained as a consultant? HO N. S.

US KIW : I am advised by the administration that he's on a temporary position basis. MR. D. ORCHARD: Temporary which? HO N. S. US KIW : Temporary, he's a term. He's not on permanent staff. MR. D. ORCHARD: So he doesn't have Civil Service status or benefits? HO N. S. US KIW : That's correct. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, $47,000 per year, if my memory serves me correct, Mr. Janssen has taken a cut in pay since he came on _then? HO N. s. US KIW : Well, I think th ere's a log ical explanation for that, Mr. Chairman.

When one hires a consultant, you do it by contract and they're usually more expensive than retention of the same person on a full-time basis. There is also, I believe, pension benefits that accrue under a term position which there wouldn't be under a consultant's position. Yes, there is quite a substantive reduction in cost to the province with the new arrangement and that is based on the assumption that he will be needed for a period of time so we might as well have him on a full-time basis rather than paying, what we consider to be, a fairly hefty amount on a consulting basis a year ago.

It is an efficiency measure if the member wishes to know. MR. D. ORCH ARD: That's fine, Mr. Chairman, we can move on to the next item unless my colleague here MR. CHAIRMAN: We have it stated in the beginning, we are now moving to Item No. 2.(a)

(1) Management Services and Engineering, Operations and Contracts: Salaries and Wages - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCH ARD: Mr. Chairman, I made a request to the Mini ster to have the department draw up something similar to what was provided last year for each division. I'll just pass that down for perusal. It indicates numbers of staff in each division and it makes it very very simple so they don't have to go through the SMY accounts. If that can be done, I would very much app reciate it and we would save a lot of time.

The only question I would have of the Minister, this year since Operations and Contracts is responsible for drawing up and completing contracts on tendered road work projects and since there is no doubt going to be a sizable reduction in the number of contracts left this year, does he expect the staff to remain fully employed over the next fiscal year? HO N. S. US KIW: Mr. Chairman, I think the other day we tabled the Staff Cuts and Additions Document which might be of some value to the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: That's exactly my question, Mr.

Chairman, because I don't believe there's any reduction in staff under Operations and Contracts. I think they remain the same and with less work to do it would seem as if they're going to be underemployed there, or does the Minister believe that they will be suitably putting in their eight hours a day? HO N. S. US KIW: Mr. Chairman, what the member must recall is that this is the administration of the department that he's looking at. He's not looking at the delivery of the projects which is done out in the field at the district level. MR. D. ORCHARD: I absolutely recognize that.

This is the department that make s sure the con tract documents on the jobs that are being tendered are properly drawn with all of the paperwork that's involved. My question simply was with a lower road budget and fewer jobs going out, there's obviously going to be less fewer contracts being drawn up. I simply ask the Minister is the same staff complement required in this department to undertake a lower level of work that the Minister is proposing to do under the construction budget? HON. S. US KIW: Mr.

Chairman, as the member should know, the work that these people do is not always related only to projects that the member can identify when we tabl ed the program. It is the overall administration of the department and preparation in anticipation and promotion of new projects that come year after year. It's not as if they are tied to projects that we have listed for the member's consideration. The staff that are involved are director of operations, contract engineer, construction engineer, maintenance engineer and their support staff.

I don't know that the member is arguing that we remove the director of operations, or that we remove the contract engineer, or that we remove the construction engineer, or that we remove the maintenance engineer. Those are the key staff of the department and around them of course, 2077

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 we add to that complement based on programming. The area of elasticity is more found to be in the districts, depending on the work in each district. MR. D. ORCH ARD: Well, I'm not going to belabour the point. Certainly there's no suggestion that you remove the top people, but I would suggest that there are going to be fewer contracts written, hence there might be some staff that aren't as fully employed as they were in other years and that can be argued, I suppose. Under 2.(a)(2), Mr.

Chairman, what are the costs of the road maps this year, and how many road maps are being printed for issuance? HO N. S. US KIW: The '83, we have 600,000 maps and the estimated cost is $1 45,000.00. MR. CHAI RMAN: If we have gone to 2.(a)(2), do I take it that we have passed 2.(a)(1) ? MR. D. ORCHARD: Pass them both if you want. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1) - pass; 2.(1 )(2)- pass; 2.(b)(1) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, how be we just discuss 2.(b), and then we don't get into any problem with whatever and we'll pass the whole works at once, how would that be? MR.

CHAIRMAN: What's the Minister's position in this regard? HO N. S. US KIW: Yes, that's fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: So, we'll take them together. 2.(b)(1) and 2.(b)(2), all at once. MR. L. HY DE: I believe - did you pass 2.(a)(1) ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we have. Does the Member for Portage la Prairie have any questions? MR. L. HY DE: Yes, I would like to bring a point to the Minister, if I may, in regard to the tendering of work out and the practice, as I understand, today is that a successful contractor receiving a tender does not necessarily have to hire local labour , trucks, drivers and such. I'm wondering, Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister would reconsider this and try and assist these truck drivers in their own localities with employment because I know with the tenders that have already been let out in our area they're complaining that there's just no work made available for them. I wonder if the Minister could see fit to take and have this practice changed so that our local labourers and truck drivers have employment? HO N. S. US KIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's always a problem. We have that complaint coming from many areas.

I had similar complaints in Lac du Bonnet last year because of a contractor that didn't employ local truckers and so on. The problem with trying to deal with that under a tender system is that you tend to break apart relationships between the major contractors and their subcontractors. It's quite common in the industry for the major contractors to have a string of subcontractors that they rely on and can depend upon and are assured that the quality of work that they have had experience with will continue for them.

When you move from one place to another and they're always having to deal with new people, then it's a little more costly for the major contractor to operate in that way. It certainly doesn't provide for continuity and stability for the subcontractor that usually tie in with the majors. It's a bit of a shake-up in the industry that would result, as I would see it. Now, we are looking at that, but I'm somewhat nervous about how far we can go with that. Departmental work, no n-tender, is easy to effect in that way, but once you go the tender route it becomes a little awkward. MR. L. HY DE: Mr.

Chairman, I can understand what the Minister is saying, but at the same time it's pretty difficult for myself or any other representative of an area to try and convince these people who are sitting at home unemployed with this expensive equipment and work being carried on right within your community. They are bringing in truckers from Winnipeg or wherever it might be. It is pretty hard to explain to these people that this is a practice that our government departments have to follow.

I do hope that you can see fit to have this practice changed if you can, because I know in my areas I'v e got truck drivers with heavy equipment that have been sitting idle. They're talking to me and speaking to me now asking if there is some work that is going to be made available to us for this spring and summer. HO N. S. US KIW: Mr. Chairman, I think one of the observations that we should make here is that the current practice is not a new practice. It has been there for years and years.

That doesn't mean that it can't change, but I simply point out that I have some reservations about how far one can meddle with that process without bringing a lot of damage and disharmony within the industry itself. If you are a contractor and you happen to know two or three small contractors, and it is usually a friendly relationship that has developed, you tend to want to funnel work to those contractors through your contract.

There is a dependency factor that is built into that relationship where two people who work together, they tend to know how each other functions and how they complement each other's operations. So it's a bit simplistic to say that we can just scrap that relationship and ask each major contractor to find new people with whom they will then enter into subcontracts with, even though they don't know their expertise or the quality of work from past experience or whatever. MR. L. HY DE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: So we're back to Item 2.(b)( 1) , and 2.(b) (2) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCH ARD: I notice in Lab and Materials that there's a staff reduction of two. What were the duties of those two staff that are reduced? 2078

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 HO N. S. US KIW : That's in the Construction Program reduction. One of the two is a core rig operator and the other was an engineering aide, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: Does it follow through with about a 26-percent reduction in the Other Expenditures that you're going to be doing significantly less core sampling on the various road mixes, concrete mixes and doing less testing for gravel deposits in the province? HO N. S. US KIW : Well, what that represents is program reduction, so we don't need the amount of staff. MR. D.

ORCHARD: This is the department that I believe does the testing for gravel deposits. HO N. S. US KIW : Yes. MR. D. ORCH ARD: I know, whilst I had the dual responsibility of this department plus Provincial Land Use Committee where we were clearing the sale of agricultural Crown lands, always there would be a potential objection from certain land types of gravel deposits. We had attempted to increase the inspection rate on those so that we weren't unduly holding up the sale of agricultural Crown land.

Is there still extra effort by this division in testing potential gravel sites on Crown land to assure that there is no commercial value of gravel there? HO N. S. US KIW : Yes, Mr. Chairman, the policy is intact as it was. MR. D. ORCHARD: That item can pass, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)(1)-p ass; 2.(b)(2)- pass; 2.(c)(1) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, this is the part of the division that of course carries out a lot of the surveys, and one of the jobs that they were attempting to do was replacing the surv.ey monuments.

Is there a reduction in the effort year over year on monument replacement and re-identification of property lines? HO N. S. US KIW : We don't have any numbers for the member, but we haven't changed the effort. We replace as many as we can. MR. D. ORCHARD: I guess that's my next question then. With a static category of Other Expenditures, in other words, no increase to take care of, no doubt, inflationary pressures, there has to be reduction in that effort.

Now, in this program of Su rveys and Titles and I was wondering if it was the monument replacement portion that will receive the reduction in effort because of static funding. HO N. S. US KIW : Well, Mr. Chairman, we will have to operate in a way that is expedient for our priority needs, and we will use the time to our best advantage. I can't really be specific with respect to that item. No doubt, there will be a reduction of work activity based on no growth in the Budget. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I am not sure whether I am right here, but I believe this is when there is a request for legal surveys done, that also comes through here where we've got a lot of subdivisions. Those are often made with no prior notice, and does the Minister feel that he's got an adequate budget to undertake any of the resurveys that might be requested of the department? HO N. S. US KIW : Well, Mr. Chairman, again I don't know whether it is worth repeating. We will have to conform and comply with the dollars that we have been allocated in these areas.

There is no doubt that we are strapped for money and our program will reflect that, whatever area that there is zero growth in terms of spending power. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)(1)- pass; 2.(c)(2)- pass; 2.(d)(1) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCH ARD: The Bridge Division has a four­ staff reduction, once again reflect ing a lower construction program effort? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HO N. S. US KIW : Yes, Mr. Chairman. There is a reduction of four staff man years which is part of the reduction in the program. MR. D.

ORCH ARD: Of the staff reductions, were there any engineers amongst those four that are no longer with the Bridge Office? HO N. S. US KI W: I wonder if the member would recap that. MR. D. ORCH ARD: The fou r fewer staff, what categories are they? Are they engineers or are they secretarial and support staff? HO N. S. US KIW : There are two engineers, one clerical and one technical person. MR. D. ORCH ARD: Is it fair to assume that staff is redu ced through attri tion, or were th ere actual dismissals? HO N. S. US KIW : There were two vacancies which aren't being filled.

There is a retirement; there was one death; and two are transferred out. I might point out, Mr. Chairman, notwithstanding these cuts, we're hoping to maintain the level of bridge work, notwithstanding. MR. D. ORCHARD: The two that were transferred, were they transferred within the Department of Highways or to other departments? HO N. S. US KIW : Within the department, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then just one other question. To which department were they transferred? HO N. S. US KIW : To Motor Vehic les Branch, Mr. Chairman. 2079

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 MR. D.

ORCHARD: The Minister might have been aware, and I think we discussed this last year in Estimates, about a proposal put together - I believe it was started whilst the Member for Turtle Mountain was Natural Resources Minister and then carried on when my coll eague, the ML A for Lakesi de was Natu ral Resources Minister - it basically involved trying to see whether the Provincial Government could assist in the reconstruction of major bridges on municipal roads because some of the municipalities, I'm no doubt sure the Minister is aware, have some fairly large bridges to replace on municipal roads and when you're talking $10 0,000 or better it can fina ncially strap the municipalities.

My colleagues of Natural Resources and myself instructed the departmental staff in both Natural Resources and in the Hig hways and Transportation to do a survey of the bridges that were out there, their condition and to give us an idea of replacement costs and to try to formulate criterion under which we might be able to establish a new funding program to provide assistance on major bridge replacement in conjunction with the RMs, a joint funding program if you will. Two questions.

First of all, has the Minister received a comple ted repor t from the join t inv estiga tion undertaken by Natural Resources and High ways and Transportation, and No. 2, if so, could one of those reports be made available or would the Minister prefer to keep it as an internal document? HON. S. US KI W: Mr. Chairman, tha t report was completed and it has been submitted back to the Department of Resources. I don't believe there's been any action as a result of its availability to either of the two departments to date. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I asked this question with full recognition that the Minister doesn't have the funds but would the Minister think that there was a case to be made for some assistance on major bridges to the municipalities? Did the investigation indicate that some bridge replacements which tend to serve maybe two municipalities, but yet must be borne by the ratepayers of one, was there any feeling the Minister got from that report that that is a program that may need some flushing out and possible introduction? HON. S. US KIW: I'm advised that the committee didn't address that particular aspect.

They didn't deal with it in their report, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: I realize that probably they didn't provide recommendations but the basis of the report was to identify the numbers and the potential costs, if I re call, of bridges in need of replacement, to give Cabinet of the day a sounding board to see whether the program was even feasible to undertake and that's the question I pose to the Minister. HON. S. US KIW: Mr. Chairman, the committee advised on the numbers of bridges involved but they didn't do a costing on them. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Does the Minister recall how many bridges there were involved in that? Was it qu ite a sizable number? HON. S. US KI W: It's about 4,0 00 bridg es, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: Surely not all 4,000 were of a size and a cost that would fit what we were considering to be major bridges that municipalities might need some assistance on. Surely we're not talking 4,000. HON. S. US KIW: My un ders tanding is tha t the committee were not given clearly-defined parameters as to their role on that question and therefore I believe they reported on the totality of bridges. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I have no further questions there. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)(1) -pa ss; 2.(d)(2)- pass; 2(e)

(1) The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Under Traffic Division, Mr. Chairman, are there any changes in the criterion for intersection illumination or the request for signal lights at intersections? Are the criterion for installing those still as they were? HON. S. US KIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we haven't made any changes there. MR. D.

ORCHARD: This is something that I shouldn't bring up to the Minister but I keep forgetting to phone the district office, but at the intersection of 23 and No. 3 at Jordan Corner on the west side, the red bulb in the flashing red stop sign has been out for four or five months and I keep forgett ing to phone them to tell them to replace it. I wonder if that word might be passed on to them. HON. S. US KIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm amazed that it has taken that long to be noted. The Member for Pembina is as guilty as my department. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Now I have to defend myself because I wasn't in any way, shape or form, criticizing the Minister on this one, but the Hig hway Traffic people drive down that road and inspect it theoretically every couple of days and somehow that bulb has been missed and there has been some night time crashes at that intersection, hence the rumble strips, etc. so if the Minister could just - because I have forgotten for several months - if he could pass that on, I know that he never forgets such things. HON. S. US KIW: Mr. Chairman, we have made a note of the point and we will deal with it accordingly. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A couple of more questions. Are there any maintenance expense savings that are being undertaken in Management Services and Engineering, such as pavement markings or whatever? Are you finding any cost savings that you can undertake this year? HON. S. US KIW: No, Mr. Chairman, we have not identified anything other than our reduction of one staff man year in that component. 2080

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 MR. D. ORCHARD: That item can pass, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)(1) - pass; 2(e)(2)- pass; 2.(f)(1) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, one question. I notice that you're increasing staff by four in Traffic. According to your numbers, '82-83 over '83-84, you're increased by four SMYs. Is that correct? HO N. S. US KIW : Mr. Chairman, my records show a reduction of one in that sec tion. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well I only refer to the April 6th document from the department last year where, under the Traffic section, they have '82-83, 13 SMY and now it appears as if it's 17.

There is some confusion between the two years. MR. D. ORCH ARD: So what is it actually, it's 17? HO N. S. US KIW : Twelve, in . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: Oh, well, it's 17 on my sheet. Okay, so I just replace that with 12? HO N. S. US KIW : Yes, that's right. It should 12 instead of 17 . MR. CHAIRMAN: That figure there, 17, should be 12, the Minister says. MR. D. ORCH ARD: That can be passed then, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: We have passed 2.(e)(1) and 2.(e)(2). We are now in 2.(1)(1) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, when I asked some questions here just a little while ago in Operations and Contracts, the Minister indicated that there was no necessity for reduction of staff here because the District Offices were undertaking the work, but yet I notice that the District Offices, unless there is another typographical error, are up five SMYs, '82-83 over '83-84. That would seem to indicate that the District Offices are going to be doing more work when, in fact, they are going to be doing less work. What are the extra staff required for? HO N. S. US KIW : Mr.

Chairman, what we're dealing with there are the departmental engineering aides. In the previous years, we over utilized that category and therefore we are making that adjustment. MR. D. ORCH ARD: Now, if they were over-utilized in other years, how are they going to be over-utilized this year when there is roughly a 20-percent reduction in program? HO N. S. US KIW : The previous approval, Mr. Chairman, was for 69, but we had actually utilized 81. MR. D. ORCH ARD: 69 to 81? 2081 HO N. S. US KIW : Yes. MR. D.

ORCH ARD: Does the Mini ster anticipa te significant transfer of District Office employees from areas receiving little or no highway construction work to areas that are receiving some work this summer? HO N. S. US KIW : Well, Mr. Chairman, there are a number of things that will happen because of the program reduction. One is that we won't have as many departmentals as we've had; the other is that, yes, there will be transfers of people from one district to another, in other words, from a district that doesn't have a great deal of construction activity to one that may. That's a normal procedure. MR. D.

ORCH ARD: Can the Minister indicate from which districts staff will not be required and into which districts they may be going this summer? HO N. S. US KIW: Mr. Chairman, that's a bit awkward to do at this point because we don't know how our scheduling of program is going to take place. MR. D. ORCH ARD: Well, if I might suggest one staff office where I think there is probably going to be a fair bit of surplus staff because there wasn't a program last year nor is there this year would be the Carman District Office.

You could probably clean it out and fire a cannon down there for the amount of road work that's going to be done in the sunny south this summer. Now the Minister indicates that departmental staff will not be hired, where does that show up? Would that not show up in the District Office staff complement? HO N. S. US KIW : No, Mr. Chairman, that comes out of the construction budget figure. MR. D. ORCHARD: Fine. HO N. S. US KIW : While I have the floor, I would like to respond to the Member for Pembina on the question of firing cannons down the Main Street of Carman. MR. D. ORCH ARD: No, no, just the District Office.

HO N. S. US KIW: Just the District Office. I happen to have had that problem in Selkirk district for three or four years, and I used to make regular phone calls to the District Engineer asking him when he was packing his bags because there was really nothing to do in that area for a good number of years. His answer to me was, well, most of my staff have gone, I'm one of the few that's left. So perhaps that is what's happening in Carman this year, I don't know. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I can't quite understand what the Minister is saying, because last year when the Minister introduced his road program - and I could find the specific reference in Hansard where he said that this is the most equitably and fairest distributed road program that we have seen for four years, making specific reference of course to myself and my colleague, the MLA for Lakeside. You see, that's where we have a little bit of trouble because it's two

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 years in a row now where we're getting shut out in southern Manitoba. I know the Mini ster has problems with some of his more vocal colleagues from time to time on the other side of the hall there. I only have to remind the Minister that we are dealing with a pretty - you know, everybody's got their priorities in construction, but I don't think it's unfair to say that in eight years or so there was very little reconstruction done in southern Manitoba.

I wouldn't want to see the Minister follow the same mistake three years in a row, so I am putting in my plug for the Carman District Office for next year, so it's on the record six months before the Minister has to draw up that road budget. I only hope that he can find it within his means to

schedule a little work down there because I don't want those fellows to get too rusty. They're going to have to crank up the machinery about three years from now and do a little work then. I want them to at least not have forgotten all the things they learned in the four years that we were in government. I can see the Minister isn't going to agree with me, so we might just as well get a few more questions here. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(1)(1)-p ass? No? Mr. Minister. HON. S. US KIW: Mr.

Chairman, I think what the member has to recognize is that we are indeed locked into a number of very expensive projects in Tory land which are carry-overs, and I talk about Trans-Canada and No. 12. That's about an $8 million tab, all in about four miles; and then there are two other projects there that are about $1 million apiece; and then there's Hig hway 75. None of the se areas are poli tically motivated the way this government is or doesn't reflect this government's politics, Mr. Chairman, and we have not detracted from fulfilling the need in those areas.

It's awfully difficult in a reduced budget to spr ead the few dollars that we have in such a way that every Member of the Legislature would be satisfied, given the fairly massive carry-overs that still have to be completed. I think it's fair comment that areas that have - for lack of a better word - been starved for a few years are qu ite anxious to see some evidence of the Department of Hig hways in that area this year; and given a small pie, it makes it difficult to respond to all of the regions of the province. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I certainly am glad to hear the Minister reaffirm that there are no politics involved in 75 which is our major interconnect from Winnipeg to the United States, and in the Trans-Canada Hig hway. I would think that those two are relatively important to all Manitobans, the interchange on No. 12, and Trans­ Canada is there because of traffic volumes and traffic volumes only.

It wasn't something that we relished undertaking just as the Minister is not going to relish undertaking at some point in time the overpass on No. 7 North, which no doubt at some point in time, is going to have to be construc ted from pu rely a safety standpoint. Those projects have and always will be undertaken by go ver nments of all stripes in the Provinc e of Manitoba. I'm glad to see that they're still ongoing.

Within the District Offices - well no, probably I should wait till we get down to Maintenance before I pose my questions on the Maintenance Budget - but coul.d the Minister indicate whether the staff complements m the District Offices have been maintained throughout the past year? HON. S. US KIW: Yes, they have been maintained, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: I have no further questions on that one, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(f)( 1)- pass; 2.(f)(2)-pass; 2.(g)(1) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I note that there's a staff reduction of two, if the numbers are correct, in High way Traffic Inspection. Could the Minister indicate what two staff positions are being reduced? HON. s. US KIW: Yes, one clerk and one inspector. The clerk resigned and the inspector retired and we're not filling those two positions. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the trucking industry in particular, I think, has probably been highly critical for the last five years of the level of inspection.

The Minister is undertaking a specific study on the regulation of the trucking industry to see if some of those, call them regulatory bottlenecks, can be overcome without the addition of more staff. I note in th e Other Expenditure category that they're down by 12 percent over last year.

Now with the reduction in staff and the reduction in Other Expenditures, this no doubt is telegraphing to the trucking industry of the Province of Manitoba that there will, in all likelihood, be a fairly significant reduction in Hig hway Traffic Inspection activity and I suppose one could correlate that with an increase in the potential number of infractions that may well take place on the highways of the Province of Manitoba. Has the Minister received any recent communication of concern from the trucking industry as to a less than adequate inspection for Highway Traffic Inspection service to the province? HON.

S. US KIW : Mr. Chairman, the decrease is attributed to the abolishment of employee private vehicle standby charge at the government scales and that was a negotiated reduction, $31, 700, that pretty well accounts for that reduction, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: When the Minister indicates that it was achieved through negotiation, I assume achieved through a negotiation with the MGE A? HON. S. US KIW : Yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: I find that commendable. HON. S. US KIW : Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Prairie. 2082

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 MR. L. HY DE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to speak to the Minister in regard to Hig hway Traffic Inspections. It was just in the course of last summer that it was brought to my attention by one of our heavy truckers in the area that, as he explained it to me, he beli eved th at he was being undu ly ha rassed by inspectors in the area.

He mentioned to me the fact that he was stopped, I believe if I recall properly, five times within the matter of just a few miles by inspectors giving him a thorough thrashing, if you want to say that, but I'm wondering if this practice is going on elsewhere within the provice. If it is, I wonder just whether it's the right way to go about it because these people are stopping these big trucks, heavily loaded, as I say five times in a matter of a mile or two or three, I think they're just pressing their luck a little too far. HO N. S. US KIW: Mr.

Chairman, I accept the message that is in the comment by the Member for Portage. There is no doubt from time to time inspection staff could be a bit overbearing with respect to their job and maybe even with respect to certain people in the industry, I don't know. Sometimes there's legitimacy to it and other times there may not be. We have tried to indicate to our inspection staff that we want inspection but we want some common sense and humanity to be applied. We don't believe that we ought to be using tactical methods, entrapments and this kind of thing, unnecessarily.

At the same time we don't want to forego the need for inspection. We have received a complaint with regard to the specific that you're mentioning and we have advised the department on a course of action, so we appreciate the point you're making and we are dealing with it. MR. L. HY DE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, I didn't realize that this was the place it should be brought up, but I was in communication with a mobile home company who were moving two mobile homes from west on Portage Avenue to Saskatoon over the past weekend.

It appears that they are receiving a certain amount of harassment as well, in that when the y go t to the weigh sta tion at Heading ley, the Inspection Branch there held them up for five hours, they missed a whole day of their show in Saskatoon and the only thing that they could hold them up on was a sign which, under the regulations, states that the sign should be in fluorescent paint. They have been using this same sign for about two years and it has not fluorescent paint on it. By virtue of the fact that a mobile home cannot be moved after dark, I think this was very unnecessary harassment.

I spoke to you about this last week but this is a further development since then, that this was not the same mobile homes I spoke to you about. These are two others that were regular mobile homes that were being transferred and they were held up for five hours while they got those signs to comply with the regulations. I don't suppose the people at the Inspection Branch will tell you anything other than the fact that they were not alerted but they were alerted to watch for this movement of a motor home. I certainly wish that something will be done about it.

This is a businessman who's trying to make an honest living and if we're driving them out by actions such as this, then I guess we deserve what we get. HO N. S. US KIW: Mr. Chairman, I know that these things can happen from time to time and I regret that the incident occurred, if it occu rred as the member described it. We are going to be undertaking a complete review of all of the inspection and permit system - we intend to do that - and the idea of the review is to come up with a system that is more expediting, if you like, and which can deal with problems like that in a quicker fashion.

I don't believe that the department's role is to unnecessarily delay or hamstring somebody's business or enterprise. In fact, it ought to be a role of trying to assist people through - that should be a positive role - and it's to that end I hope that after we do our review which will involve all of the inspection staff, we intend to have some seminars and workshops. Essentially the message will be that we as a department, ought to be accommodating as much as possible and we should appear to be that way.

I know from time to time we will always run into a situation like that but we hope to mimimize that to the extent that it's possible. MR. R. NORDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HO N. S. US KIW: Mr. Chairman, on that particular one I will follow that one up. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the Minister some question regarding a policy or if there's any change being made to acco mmodate interprovincial people who requir e special permits.

I know there are several places along the Saskatchewan border, maybe not in the Province of Manitoba, but in the Province of Saskatchewan. Is there any thought being given to making permits available at those specified points rather than create some inconvenience of having to phone ahead and get permits, if there's any consideration being given to making single trip permits available at border crossings or very close proximity? HO N. S. US KIW: Perhaps the member might want to clarify somewhat. We don't have scales at all of the border points. MR. H.

GRAHAM: No, but in some cases Saskatchewan has, say for instance, Moosomin. HO N. S. US KIW: Oh, yes. MR. H. GRAHAM: The Saskatchewan Government has an office there and I was wondering if the Minister would give consideration to working probably jointly with the Province of Saskatchewan. I'm sure it's just a matter of working out some details. 2083

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 HON. S. US KIW : Mr. Chairman, if what the member is suggesting is a measure that can streamline the workings of our pr ivate sector tha t moves interprovincially, I certainly wouldn't want to oppose that and certainly if there's a means of working closer together, we'll look at that, sure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: Mr. Chairman, while we are in this section, I believe I did mention to the Minister and the Deputy Minister last week, but I just want to get it on record that they will be taking into consideration the movement of 16 -foot trailers.

As it stands today in Manitoba the only way you can move a 16 -foot-wide mobile home is with a 16 -wheel dolly. Now, it appears that there are only maybe two of them in Western Canada, so if a manufacturer or a sales organization wants to sell or move a 16 -foot trailer, they're in trouble. Other jurisdictions, British Columbia - well, no, I don't believe they'll move anything because of the mountains there - but Alberta and Saskatchewan are in the process of allowing movement of these trailers with as few as 12 wheels on the dolly.

I hope that Manitoba will be taking that into consideration and maybe coming down with some thin g that's just a little easier for the operators, whether it be the sales or the manufacturers. I think we have two companies here in Manitoba that do manufacture mobile homes of this size and if they can't sell them they're in trouble. Here, again, I think we should be encouraging businesses to stay in Manitoba and if by giving them easier movement of their product I think we have something to develop from there. So I do want to have that on record, Mr. Chairman. HON. S. US KIW : Well, Mr.

Chairman, the member knows that we are quite aware of the issue. I simply want to remind him that we consider the 16 -wheel system much safer on the highway. We are awaiting the results of the tests in Alberta and when that is known, I believe both Alberta and Manitoba will come to some decision. Saskatchewan is not happy with its permitting of the 12 -wheel system although they are condoning it for the moment. But I suspect when the Alberta results are known if they confirm the need for 16 wheels, that Saskatc hewan may again look at their regulations.

We're not going to move on that until that study is complete and we have the information. MR. R. NORDMAN: Fine, Mr. Chairman, but I do want our department to move on it and not particularly have to wait for someone else to make a decision before we make a decision. HON. S. US KIW : Well, Mr. Chairman, I hope the member appreciates that what we are trying to do is avoid duplication of effort. There is some costing involved in doing this study and there is no point in every province doing their own. I think we can share the information and it's on that basis that we decided to wait for the results from Alberta. MR.

R. NORDMAN: I believe the Saskachewan or Alberta survey that was being done was supposed to be ready by the 1st of March. Could we follow up on that? It's now just about the end of April. Could we make enquiries as to where they stand with it, please? HON. S. US KIW : Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm led to believe that our staff is currently in constant contact with their counterparts in other provinces on matters such as this one and that will happen as a matter of course. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, on that point the Minister indicates that Saskatchewan, although they're not satisfied with the 12 -wheel dolly movement of a 16 -foot-wide, they are allowing it by permit. The circumstance that my colleague is bringing up, I think, caused the loss of a sale in this one particular case. In the interim time where you don't have your program laid out, could you not allow the movement with those 12 -wheel dollies, as Saskatchewan does, to expedite business out of this province? HON. S. US KIW : Well, Mr.

Chairman, the movement of 16 -foot-wide trailer that was drawn to our attention a week ago, had much more to do not only with the 16 -wheel dolly but with the fact that during restrictions is very difficult to authorize the movement of those wide trai lers because of the need to travel on the shoulder, either for the trailer itself or one passing the trailer. One could imagine what could happen if a semi­ trailer in passing a 16 -foot-wide object would have to take the shoulder, which is very soft at the present time, and would either jackkn ife or upset or whatever. The dangers are quite evident there.

It is for that reason more than the 16 -wheel question that we said, not during restrictions. MR. D. ORCHARD: I very much appr ecia te the Minister's position on that particular one but I would hope that when restrictions come off and if a decision hasn't been made that the Minister could allow some flexibility and allow those kinds of moves in the interim. We wouldn't want to depr ive anyone of a sale opportunity or manufacturing opportunity and I think the Minister is sympathetic to that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Minister in making some comments in this area has twigged my interest a little bit as to what is the backlog at the end of the restriction period? What is the backlog of those large buildings beyond 15 or 16 feet that are ready to move? Does he have a good feel for that number? HON. S. US KIW : Mr. Chairman, most of the builders are aware that during that period of the year we don't allow them to go. They simply don't apply for the permits, so we have no way of knowing what volume is out there waiting for the restrictions to be lifted. MR. C.

MANNESS: I bring this subj ect up because I had a very real instance in . . . HON. S. US KIW : Live example. 2084

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 MR. C. MANNESS: . . . my constituency where certainly a local group who were acting on behalf of their church, bringing in a manse, wasn't aware of that situation, and they missed by one or two days. I'm curious as to how many groups in a year find themselves not really knowing the regulations, because in fact when you do it maybe once in 20 years as a volunteer group, of course, you can't know all these things. I'm wondering how many in a year are caught by the regulations coming down. HON. S. US KIW : Well, Mr.

Chairman, the group that the mem ber refers to perhaps don't know the regulations and the laws, but the movers certainly do. There's no doubt every year some of the movers try to get beyond that deadline date in order to accomplish their task. I don't fault them for it. We recognize that they are aware of it, but they're hoping to get another one through, if they can, all the time. MR. C. MANNESS: So the indi vidua ls who are volunteer groups or who move a home only once in a lifetime, they're the ones that are always usually caught with the regulations coming down. HON. S. US KIW : Well, Mr. Chairman.

I don't believe they're caught. There's no doubt in my mind that the mover in question was aware of the timing. We don't expect the public to have that kind of information but, if they are using commercial movers, the movers certainly know the rules. It's a mover that was caught. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(g)(1) - pass; 2.(g)(2)- pass. Resolution 97: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $15 ,766,300 for High ways and Transportation for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1984- pass. The Member for Radisson. MR. G.

LECUY ER: I have a number of questions I would like to ask and are related to the Perimeter Highway, and I wonder if it c_omes under this section. HON. S. US KIW : Well, Planning and Design could. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: With the Member for Radis son's indulgence, I would only like to ask one question of the Minister leading into this evening's Estimate period. HON. S. US KIW : What is the question? MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the question? MR. C. MANNESS: I'd like to serve notice on the Minister that I'll be asking some specific questions regarding the design on High way 75.

I would wonder if he could have somebody in support of hi mself at that time, so I could pose those questions this evening. HON. S. US KIW : Mr. Chairman, the member might want to elaborate what it is that he will be seeking from us. I understand one of the items is location and cost comparison; there may be other things. If there are, if you would indicate to them, we'll certainly attempt to have that information for this evening. MR. C.

MANNESS: Well, I don't want to usurp the Member for Radisson's time, but certainly specifically in those areas the rationale behind the proposed route and the cost relationships between that and a route that the citizens, particular of Glenlea, felt should have been taken, No. 1. No. 2, some questions on the structu res un der Hig hway 75 in St. Nor bert to accommodate the La Salle River, specifically those areas. HON. S. US KIW : Well, Mr. Chairman, that latter item is really the property of the City of Winnipeg.

We're into the boundaries of the City at that point, so we cannot deal with that at this point in time. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, that's fine, Mr. Chairman. I just noticed that was one of the items considered under the Capital area. I'll hold it till then, but I thought it was in the Design area that I'd like to bring up some of the water flow restriction involved. I thought this was the appropriate time to do it. HON. S. US KIW: I want to respond to that latter point, and that is the City of Winnipeg has the jurisdiction. They have their own staff design crew that deals with that.

We're not involved at that point on that highway. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, to the Member for Radisson. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Radisson. MR. G. LECUY ER: Okay, I have a number of questions I'd like to ask the Minister with regard to the Perimeter Hig hway, specifically, the completion of the Perimeter Hig hway. These concerns date from way back, before I have ever been a member in this Legislature. Basically, what I would like to begin by asking the Minister, if the completion of the Perimeter Hig hway, that is, the

section between No. 1 High way and No. 59 Highway, northeast of Winnipeg, is one of the projects which figures in the "Wish List," if that's what we want to call it, of job creation projects which were submitted to Ottawa? HON. S. US KIW: Did the member ask the question or make a statement? MR. G. LECUY ER: No, I'm asking whether it was part of that. HON. S. US KIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think I'll have to get that information for this evening. I know there was a list put together.

I'm not sure - I don't want to give the wrong answer - whether or not that component was in that list, but we can determine that for later on this evening. MR. G. LECUY ER: That in itself is not that important, perhaps the answer to this question is. Is it one of the projects slated to be undertaken or started this year? HON. S. US KIW: No, Mr. Chairman, I think there would have to be a greater deg ree of forward planning, if you 2085

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 like, and preparation than what we have at the moment if we were to launch that project. It is a very expensive component, I think, valued at some $25 million five years ago, so it's probably a $40 million component if we were to undertake it. The rationale for not having proceeded with the completion to date has been that the use of Lagimodiere Boulevard, if you like, would adequately serve that part of Winnipeg for the time being. Now the member may want to take issue with that for a number of reasons, which I recognize are there, and perhaps maybe he should.

We might have the benefit of his views on it in that respect. MR. G. LECUYER: Well, I most definitely do want to take issue with that because Lagimodiere Boulevard was never intended to replace part of High way No. 1 or to be part of High way No. 59. In fact, when I hear the Member for Pem bina complaining of massive spending for highways - awhile ago, we just heard about the carry-over projects in Tory land which are being undertaken at quite hefty costs and are taking a major part of this year's pie for the highways. So I will just pretend I haven't heard these comments.

The fact remains that Lagimodiere Boulevard was never intended to be a major divided highway and that, I have to remind everybody around this table, happened after the residential area was built up there. In fact the establishment of CN marshal! yards was established afterwards as well. So, as well as having the noise coming from the CN marshalling yards, we now have a trafficked highway, which is as densely used probably as any or perhaps more than anywhere else in the area of the city.

The reason being of course that the trucking industry has absolutely no other route to follow and the reason is of course very simple. Most of the trucking warehousing is established in northwest Winnipeg, and all of the traffic coming in from Eastern Canada or going out in that direction now has no other alternative but to adopt that road and passing in some instances as close as 40 feet to some housing areas. I had sent a letter in September of 19 82, to the Minister responsible for the Environment in this regard, because I wanted some noise level tests to be undertaken in this residential area.

The complaints have been coming for many years now and tests were undertaken in February and March of 19 81, which showed that the noise level was as much as 13 decibels and 17 decibels above the acceptable limits during daytime and nighttime respectively. Tests were to be conducted at two different intervals afterwards and I don't know if they were. But I have personally myself received a number of calls from citizens living in that area complaining, because they had complained to the environment management, and even though the tests were taken actually nothing else hap pened .

Of cour se the reason being th at the Environment Control Division is not in a position to exercise any jurisdiction over the routing of traffic. But the fact remains that the noise level is beyond acceptable limits and the only way it appears that it can be controlled would be by completing the Perimeter Hig hway. At any rate, I would assume that at the time the Plan Winnipeg included the Perimeter Hig hway, it was intended that this would be completed. MR. R. NORDMAN: They change that every year. MR. G. LECU YER: Well, someone says they change that every year.

I am hoping that one year they will happen to decide to complete this highway. I personally on two evenings went on the highway, parked there during the night for three hours the first time and for four hours the second time; counted the trucks and counted the number of trains that were marshal led on the track nearest to the high way; measured the speed of those trains that were travelling on the nearest track to the highway and it was easy to deter mine tha t the main culp rit was not the Symington Yard. In fact, the reports . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The time is 4:30.

The member may wind up this evening if he wants to, or if he wants with the permission of the rest of the members, he can continue. MR. G. LECUYER: I will continue this evening. MR. CHAIR llll AN: It's 4:30 and it's Private Members' Hour. SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIR MAN, P. Eyler: We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Education, Item 2.(a), Planning and Research, Salaries. The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Member for Tuxedo will be here in just a few minutes, he had to just go out for a minute. MR. G.

FILMON: I had undertaken some discussion in the Planning and Research Branch of the department with the Minister and the initial thrust of the questioning was to ask the Minister to explain what her goals and objectives were for the branch, what expectations she held out for them and whether or not there was a particular philosophy or direction that was being given to the branch by her administration. Could she give us some idea of th ose goals, tha t direction and philosophy? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I'll comment on a number of areas.

I would say that I might comment first on what I consider to be the most significant directions for the coming year and that would be development and implementation of an internal planning process for the Department of Education, assessment of th e data needs of the dep artment and commencement of a co-operative effort by all branches towards an integrated data base system.

That is, we want to start gathering information and ha ving information av ailable through the Research and Planning Branch that will giv e suppor t to all the branches and all the departments in the education system and we wanted to give support to school divisions and other educational organizations because we recognize that in many cases school divisions do not have the capacity to develop information and data 2086

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 that the Provincial Government does have or should have, and that we should be gathering this information and preparing to share it with them. Perhaps it would be a good idea if I gave an example in terms of activities of each of the points that I'm making.

For instance, the analysis of current and anticipated developments in fields of service, I would think the point I made last night about Special Needs falls into that area where there are major changes taking place in a major area of high need and it's important that we keep on top of those and that we know what is being done and the degree of success it is being done with, with the programs that we have in place.

I think analysis of trends in data such as enrolment and teacher supply which was one of the points that was raised by the Member for Tuxedo yesterday where, clearly, that kind of enrolm ent projection of both students and teachers is very very important for us to have, to do our planning at the Department of Education level in terms of funding, policies, programs and for that information to be available to the people in the field. I think that we would be looking at developing some background papers on major issues that we need to bring in policy changes and programs.

I think that a couple of areas I could identi fy were the Na tive Education Programs that I mentioned last night and our need to make some decisions on where to go in that area. The question of accessi bility for post-secondary education I think, is the big qu estion across the province, not so much for people that live in the south who have access to the existing university and college institutions. But it certainly is a question for people across the province who have to come south presently to get many of these programs and I expect we will be looking at the question of accessibility.

I think that assistance to school divisions in a number of areas where they are both struggling and moving and the examples I would give there, I suppose, are help and support for the development of their Computer Education Programs.

In terms of data when they're doing their enrolment projections - and we have all certainly had problems with enrolment projections in the last decade where for a long time we couldn't keep pace with the tremendous growth and numbers of children nor were we predicting that tremendous growth accurately and at the same time when the enrolment started to decline - it took us a little while to catch up to the degree and the depth of the decline.

We have found the allowance data that we have access to, that school divisions would not have and we would be making information like that that we have, that will help them with their enrolment projections. So I would say, in general, that we are going to be trying to anticipate and responding to emerging trends and issues instead of being three-quarters of the way through them before we try to figure out what to do.

One of the very good examples that demonstrates the need was the point that was raised by the members opposite last night when they were talking about the open area - and I made fairly lengthy comments about that qu estion - but I can say I think th at if the Department of Education had done a little more in terms of gathering information and data about how the programs had been handled and what had to be done prior to bringing the programs in, and the experience that the other jurisdictions had when they instituted open area, and that we had taken a bit of time to gather that very important information, we might not have had as many difficu ltie s or as many strugg les with implementing it ou rselves.

So I think there are a lot of cases where there are major moves, major trends, major issues where we can do a better job, both at the Department of Education level and providing services to people in the field, by having better information on which to make those decisions. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister has spoken about the whole area of Research and Planning in generalities, giving some specific examples. She has utilized specific examples to justify why you would have this kind of expertise available.

I don't think any of us would disagree with that, nor would we suggest that it isn't a good thing. But let's talk about, for instance, the open-area concept. I think the Minister will acknowledge, as anyone who is in the field of education does, that education, as much as almost any area field of endeavour, seems to be subject to all of these wide-sweeping trends. There was a great trend towards open-area concept; there was a great trend towards the new math; there was a great trend towards the different method of phonics of learning the language.

We've gone in and out of some of the se trends and fou nd that they were disastrous, so a Research and Planning component, obviously, will be just as subject to those trends. In fact, there was a very substantial research component to the Department of Education in the early '70s and mid-'70s. They were still subject to all of those kinds of swings and trends. It seems as though the "think" tank that evolves looks for methods of justifying its existence and finds these new trends and new ideas and re-invents the wheel. Research, yes, is always good; planning, yes, is always good.

Any business, any organization, must have that component involved with it, but to justify it on the basis of saying it's going to bring us new ideas or it's going to eliminate all of the mistakes that we used to make in the past is absolute nonsense. It never will. It will certainly provide something for the Minister on which to base her judgments and recommendations, but I am saying to her that was there in the past. What I am saying to her is that she had a research component before. Maybe that research component did not have a broad enough mandate; surely, the mandate could have been broadened.

Su rely, more people could have been brought in with the kind of expertise that were required in order to broaden that mandate and others may be transferred into other areas. But what this Minister did was render that

section redundant and replace it with a whole new situation, with a new title, presumably firing the existing director or removing him from the position and bringing in somebody new. So I am saying, what is the new wave? Why do we have the new wave and why do we need the new wave? What are the goals and objectives for the new wave in this department? There mu st have been, su rely, some greater justification on the part of the Minister then to continue to do what they're already doing, to simply broaden 2087

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 their mandate, recognizing that we have computers now to deal with. Well, we've had computers for 10 or 15 years. Yes, they're in greater use in educational circles, and we're now finding them in use in every area, elementary, junior high, high school, etc., etc. People are beginning to use them almost as personal tools as opposed to the big machine that used to sit in some building downtown.

Yes, there is all of that happening, but this is a continuous evolutionary proc ess, and it would be incumbent on any government to partake in that continuous evolutionary process, to make use of it and to assist other areas of education through that process, but this Minister decided to wipe out what existed and replace it. I am saying that it's going to take more justification than that to convince me that was a necessary move. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: I was debating whether there was a question there that I should be responding to, but I think perhaps there were a number of points made, whether they were in the form of a question or not, that I should touch on. The first one is that the numbers of people and the people that were in the branch are still in the branch. There wasn't anybody fired, and that any of the changes that were made were made through open competition. The major change, what we have done, was broaden the mandate.

I said last night it wasn't that some of the things that were being done; they were studying and ev aluating some exis ting progra ms and the information we got from that was useful. But it wasn't and it isn't as important as our desperate need these days to have adequate information to make decisions on major issues, major policies and programs that we have to develop. I think that I expect this branch is going to be, as I said, supportive to the field.

The Department of Education, to date, had tended to leave school divisions on their own with sort of planning and information that we know that they don't have access to or have enough information to provide without recognizing that many of the things that they're dealing with are provincial issues and provincial problems in which the Provincial Government and my department carries major responsibility. So that we do have a responsibility to provide better statistics and information to both the Department of Education and to school divisions.

In terms of the trends, the point the Member for Tuxedo made about trends, and I think it the suggestion was really we're jumping on bandwagons.

We sort of jump on this and try that and I agree with the concern that he's raising and would suggest to him that it's exactly because of that concern that is behind one of the reasons for extending and expanding the mandate of this branch so tha t we are not jumping on bandwagons and on trends just because somebody's idea or opinion thinks that this would be a good thing to do without sup porting it with data, evidence, information and statistics that are available in other areas where these activities and programs have been tried.

We do not want to re-invent the wheel, and we do not want to make mistakes that have been made by other people who have gone in, done some of these programs and have learned from them and have learned the hard way what shouldn't be done. Well, surely to goodness, we don't have to do that every time, and Manitoba doesn't have to 90 off on its own just jumping on trends and jumping on bandwagons without having adequate information on where the dangers and where the difficulties are, so that we can learn from the information that is available and what has been done by other people.

We can make the decisions that we're going to make about issues that we have to deal with based on the best, the most adequate and up-to-date comprehensive information that we can gather. It doesn't mean that we'll never make mistakes. It doesn't mean that we'll never bring in programs that we don't ultimately have to make some changes in because we've learned that there are some problems related to them. But it does mean that we will be avoiding obvious, I think, difficultie s or avoiding developing programs and policies that are not adequate because they're based on inadequate knowledge and information. MR. G.

FILMO lll: Mr. Chairman, since the role, function and the responsibility of any government department and indeed the predecessors of this administration was to make the best judgments and the best decisions based on the best information available. I accept the fact that this is not a major change in direction. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)- pass; 2.(b)- pass. Resolution No. 54: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $470,700 for Education, Planning and Research, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1984- pass. 3. Financial Support - Public Schools, (

a) School Grants and Other Assistance. The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMOl\I: Since this is basically the major component of the entire Estimates, does the Minister have any opening statement on this or, if not, then the Member for Emerson would like to proceed. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, actually I believe that a fair amount of what I would say related to this major component of my Estimates was covered when I made my opening statement to the Estimates and I don't think it's necessary for me to reiterate those. I did have one comment that I wanted to make at the beginning.

Perhaps it is in the form of an offer as much as anything.

There are 56 school divisions in the Province of Manitoba and I know that sometimes when we go through Estimates. some of the members opposite have a particular interest, just as we are going to find they have in the building program, in certain school divisions, might have a particular interest in getting detailed information about the budget, the expenditures, the allocations and the money that went a particular school division, I think the mem bers opposite will realize that it is a fairly lengthy task for us to sit down and develop all that information on each individual school board when, in fact, they may not be interested in more than half of them, that it would be unnecessary work.

So I was going to suggest that, if the members opposite wanted that kind of detailed information about 2088

Tuesday, 26 April, 1983 any individual school division, if they would give us the name of the school division, a list of the names of the school divisions, we would prepare a summarized do