British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, May 19, 2011 (39th Parliament, 3rd Session) (H0519am-06) (H0519am 06)

H0519am-06

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 39th Parliament official rePort of Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari Soff, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Thursday, May 19, 2011 Morning Sitting Volume 22, Number 6

Pro Vince of britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l.

Point, obc Third Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker of the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil .............................................................................................................. h on. c hristy c lark Deputy Premier and Minister of finance ............................................................................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation ...........................................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of a dvanced e ducation .................................................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Minister of a griculture ........................................................................................................................................................... h on.

Don Mcr ae a ttorney General ........................................................................................................................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc Minister of c hildren and f amily Development ................................................................................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of c ommunity, Sport and cultural Development .................................................................................................. h on. ida c hong Minister of e ducation .........................................................................................................................................................h on.

George a bbott Minister of energy and Mines and Minister r esponsible for h ousing.........................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of environment ....................................................................................................................................................h on. Dr. t erry l ake Minister of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations......................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson Minister of h ealth .................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of Jobs, t ourism and innovation ................................................................................................................................... h on. Pat bell Minister of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government .............................................................................. h on.

Stephanie c adieux Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond Minister of Social Development and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism ............................................................ h on. h arry bloy Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ................................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ......................................................................................................................................................a drian Dix Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker ..................................................................................................................................................................Dawn black Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole ...................................................................................................................................Douglas h orne c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ............................................................................................................... craig h.

James (on leave) c lerk a ssistant and a cting c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................. k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary l enz

alP habetical liS t of MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, bill (l) .............................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, iain (l) .............................................................. Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h on. h arry (l) ............................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-fleetwood c adieux, h on. Stephanie (l) ................................................Surrey-Panorama c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c handra h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ................................Vancouver–West end c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, Murray (l) ..............................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ........................................... f ort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) ..............................................................

Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on. Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington f alcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale f arnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake f oster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee f raser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, c olin (l) ............................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, r andy (l) ............................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, k ash (l) ................................................................ Vancouver-fraserview h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de f uca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, kevin (l) ............................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, h on. Dr. t erry (l) .....................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................f raser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (l) ......................................... Vancouver-fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on. Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–f alse creek Mcr ae, h on.

Don (l) ................................................................... c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry, Qc (l) ....................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (ind.) .....................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, ben (l) ..................................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, Dr. Moira (l) ......................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon.

Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, John (l) .......................................................................r ichmond-Steveston Vacant ...............................................................................Vancouver–Point Grey liS t of MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .......................................................................r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ......................................................h on.

Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott f raser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ...................................................................h on. h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope .......................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley...........................................................................h on. Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis f ort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman f raser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de f uca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson ............................................ h on.

Dr. t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ...................................................... k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast ....................................................................................bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike f arnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam ...................................................................... iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands .....................................................

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on.

George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine ........................................................................................Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Surrey-fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................ h on.

Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ........................................................................... Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-fairview ................................................ Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–f alse creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-fraserview ........................................................................k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara .................................................................Dr.

Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ..........................................Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ...............................................................................Vacant Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................................... c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ...............................................Spencer c handra h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric f oster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna .............................................................................ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 48; n ew Democratic 34; independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS Thursday, May 19, 2011 Morning Sitting Page Orders of the Day c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 7217 e stimates: Ministry of a dvanced e ducation h on. n. Y amamoto M. Mungall b. r alston D. r outley l. k rog D.

Donaldson M. k aragianis Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 7229 e stimates: Ministry of e nvironment (continued) h on. t . l ake r . flemin g V . huntington b. Simpson

7217 thurSD a Y , MaY 19, 2011 The h ouse met at 10:03 a.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Prayers. Orders of the Day Hon. B. Penner: Good morning. in this h ouse i call estimates debate for the Ministry of a dvanced e ducation, and in the Douglas fir r oom i call continued estimates debate for the Ministry of environment. [1005] Committee of Supply e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y of a DVance D e Ducation The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply (Section b); D. black in the chair. The committee met at 10:06 a.m. on Vote 13: ministry operations, $1,980,486,000. Hon. N.

Y amamoto: it's with great pleasure that i rise to present the 2011-2012 spending estimates for the Ministry of a dvanced e ducation. before i begin, i would like to introduce the staff that are here with me.

They are Deputy Minister Philip Steenkamp; brian h ansen, assist- ant deputy minister, decision support and accountability division; Mark Gillis, acting assistant deputy minister, students, institutions and programs division; and Joe Thompson, executive director, post-secondary funding. it's a privilege for me to rise to introduce the estimates for the Ministry of a dvanced e ducation. i would also like to acknowledge the contributions of the dedicated faculty administrators who plan and deliver post- secondary programs throughout this province. i've had the privilege of meeting many of them as i've toured the province in my new role since becoming Minister of a dvanced e ducation, and i've been very, very impressed by their commitment to learning; their commitment to the students and colleagues, the colleges, universities and institutes that they represent; and their commit - ment to the post-secondary sector.

We as a government want to make sure that british c olumbians have every opportunity to succeed and to be the best that they can. e ducation is the key to our success in a knowledge-based economy. investing in post-secondary education has been a priority for this government since 2001, and it continues to be a priority for this government ten years later. Since 2001, i'm very, very proud to say, we've invested over $2.1 billion in post-secondary education and almost $2.5 billion in student financial assistance. o ur priority is to ensure that dollars are kept where they benefit the students the most.

We've committed to preserving core funding for our students, and that's what we've been doing. f or 2011 and 2012 we are investing more in post- secondary education than any other provincial government in british c olumbia history — $1.98 billion. on average, funding per full-time-equivalent student is $10,000 across institutions. That's up from $8,440 in 2001. f urther, we've limited the tuition increases at pub- lic institutions to 2 percent per year since 2005.

We continue to take extra steps so that our students can afford a degree or diploma. a ny student who applies for student financial assistance and qualifies will receive it, and we're making it easier for our graduates to get out of debt sooner. in 2010-11 the province supported a number of loan forgiveness or reduction programs by investing over $40 million to forgive or reduce loans for more than 23,000 students. e very student has their own unique journey, and they should be given the opportunity to chart their own course through our post-secondary education system.

We want to give our learners the option of what to study, where to study, when to study, how to study and what career path to choose. [1010] Since 2001 a $2 billion investment of capital in over 1,000 projects on campuses throughout b.c . has been made to make our post-secondary system more access - ible for students, more flexible, more affordable and more competitive with other jurisdictions than ever before. o ur government has created seven new universities and expanded our campus seats by 33,000. These post- secondary opportunities must be made available to all, including our aboriginal learners.

We're working closely with our aboriginal post- secondary education and training partners to create initiatives that eliminate barriers and increase students' participation in social and economic life for their com - munities, the province and the global society. We will continue to build upon the aboriginal post-secondary education strategy and action plan that this government announced in 2007. a ll students can be assured that the learning experience they receive at one of our universities, institutes or colleges will be of the highest standard.

Quality is at the heart of our post-secondary education offerings, and it's critical to our competitiveness internationally. b.c. is the only juris - diction in c anada with the provincial seal of quality for post-secondary education — our education quality assur- ance designation. a ll of our 25 public institutions are now eQa -designated, and 60 private institutions have also re- ceived the designation.

british c olumbia Debates7218 t hursday, May 19, 2011 We're working hard to make sure our province's dy - namic post-secondary education system is a global destination of choice for students from all over the world to come here, to learn, to stay, to live, to work and to in- vest. in addition to the talent and diversity they bring to our education system, labour forces, students and re - searchers, international students inject more than $1.8 billion per year into b.c.'s economy in tuition, accom - modation and discretionary spending, creating about 22,000 jobs.

We will continue to work in partnership with british c olumbia's post-secondary education and training institutions to ensure that our programs attract, ac - commodate and retain students from all over british c olumbia and around the world. i'm very proud of the progress we've been making as we strive to make sure british c olumbians and learners from around the world are able to develop the knowledge and skills they need to reach their full potential. We've increased annual funding for the university sec- tor by 56 percent since 2001 and by 25 percent for our colleges and institutes.

There are over 440,000 full- and part-time students enrolled in public post-secondary in- stitutions in b.c. That's the highest number ever. There have been 330 new degree programs approved in b.c. since 2001. We have made significant progress, but we can't and we won't stop now. We're facing an entirely new global economy.

The world is changing, technology is changing, and jobs are changing. o ver the next ten years three-quarters of all the jobs in b.c. will require some form of post-secondary edu - cation or training. t o keep ahead of the curve, we need to produce the best-educated and best-trained students, and we need to continue supporting students and edu - cational institutions that develop them. We will continue to invest in our young people and make it easier for them to invest in themselves.

We will continue to provide learning opportunities to help people reach for their dreams and enrich their lives, their families and their communities. i know you have some ideas on how we can achieve these goals and how we can pay for them. i look forward to hearing your thoughts and answering your questions. i would be happy to receive comments, remarks and questions from the members of the l egislature. M. Mungall: Well, it's my pleasure to be able to participate in the budget estimates debates today for a dvanced e ducation. i was about to say "and l abour Market Development," but not quite anymore.

We've had a few changes in the last year. The government describes, and rightly so, the activ - ities and the programs that it has been taking on since it was elected in 2001. Their numbers paint one story. of course, when we broaden it out and look beyond just their numbers and look at the stories of students and families across this province, we see a more fulsome picture, and that picture is not as rosy as the one they continually paint. What we do see in this province is, of course, one of the highest debt loads for students, at $27,000, after their graduating.

Y ou add interest rates, the highest interest rates in the country, on top of that, and they're actually paying $35,000 when all is said and done, at the very least. a nd that's the average student. We also have some of the highest tuition in the prov - ince. We have the lowest amount for upfront student grants from this provincial government than any other province in the country. [1015] What we see is stagnant funding going to post- secondary institutions. When i say stagnant…. They might say, "oh, we have increased," but the reality is that the costs for institutions have also increased.

So when you look at everything, when all is said and done at the end of the day, we actually see an 8 percent decline in per-student funding in this province. That's the fact of the matter. That's what post-secondary institutions are saying. it certainly is not the same type of picture that the provincial government continually portrays when it comes to a dvanced e ducation. They claim that this is a priority for them, but of course, actions speak louder than words. With that, i'd like to be able to jump right into ques - tions.

We don't have much time today for what is a very large issue for over 200,000 students and families across this province, so i'm going to get started going right to the estimates documents. it's actually under line item 67 in the supplements to estimates. l ine item 67, under "c orporate services," we see that there's just over $1.5 million being spent here. n ow, this item is for what's considered non-statutory advertising and publishing. l ine item 68 is the statutory.

That's what's required of government to do. i thought that was quite a discrepancy, so i started to flip through the rest of the supplementary estimates document to see what's going on in other ministries, just for a comparison. i actually found that this is not a popular line item, n o. 67. Very rarely do you ever see anything in it.

The other places that you see something in this line item are climate action secretariat, tourism, government and public engagement, where you can understand why you would see funding in those areas. but i don't under- stand why we're seeing it in corporate services here in a dvanced e ducation. So i'm just wondering what this money is for and how you came to this total. Hon. N. Y amamoto: Due to the reorganization of the ministries that were combined into what we see

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 19, 2011 7219 now as a dvanced e ducation, we saw some funding that actually ended up in our ministry. So any spend - ing on government informational advertising and publications will be planned and coordinated centrally through the Minister of l abour, c itizens' Services and o pen Government. M. Mungall: i don't see how that answers my ques - tion. o bviously, if this money is being budgeted into this ministry, this ministry is going to be spending it. t o talk about it being given to another ministry…. i don't quite understand.

Why wouldn't it be in that other ministry? i'm wondering: what is this money for, and under which department of the ministry is it being spent? i mean, we have it in corporate services, but when i met with the deputy minister, he was mentioning that for what's been categorized in terms of the organiza - tion of the ministry, technology and business solutions branch is corporate services. So if there's anything else rolled into corporate services under this budget item here…. Why would you be spending $1.5 million on advertising? [1020] Hon. N.

Y amamoto: This money came from a for - mer ministry and is now in a dvanced e ducation. it is for areas of advertising and publication, as i think you recognized. but in order for us to spend it, we will ac - tually be coordinating it through the Ministry of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government. a t this time some of the projects that we would con - sider spending this money on would include marketing and promoting b.c.'s post-secondary institutions to international students.

We could consider spending it on publishing our student satisfaction survey or perhaps marketing and rolling out our new integrated system for our Studenta id b.c. M. Mungall: Thank you, hon. Speaker, or c hair. it's going to take a while, maybe all morning, for me to get that straight in this room. My understanding, looking at the c ouncil of Ministers of e ducation, c anada, cMec…. They do a lot of mar - keting for international students. What i'm wondering is: are we doubling up? a re they already doing that mar- keting to international students?

We pay into being a part of that organization, so are we essentially just doub- ling up something that they're already doing? Hon. N. Y amamoto: That's a very good question. We always want to make sure that we're not…. We want to eliminate duplication, but the cMec, as you referred to, actually doesn't have a marketing budget for inter - national education. it's up to the provinces to do it on their own. M. Mungall: Moving on, then, to looking at the fund- ing of the institutions and fte s, and so on.

We'll start diving into that. i want to first look at the possibility of the higher-edu- cation price index and pulling a lot from presentations that have been done to the finance c ommittee. in their prebudget submission to the finance c ommittee this year cufabc, which is the c anadian university faculty a ssociation — there are so many acronyms; i'm hoping i got that one right — recommended that the Ministry of a dvanced e ducation and Ministry of finance start working together to develop a b.c. higher-education price index, heP i.

That presentation was done this year, but it was also done in the previous years and was a recommendation of the finance c ommittee. Specifically, the recommenda - tion from the 2009 report reads: "i nvestigate the merits of and issues related to using the higher-education price index model versus the consumer price index in regard to post-secondary funding allocation adjustments." The u nited States uses heP i, and it's proven to be quite useful, especially noting that since about 1987 heP i has been considerably higher than the cP i. So i'm just wondering if the ministry has begun this work. [1025] Hon. N.

Y amamoto: We actually have looked at heP i. What we've determined is that if you look over the past few years, heP i index is very volatile and it lacks a lot of certainty. in fact, if we tied our increase, the 2 per - cent increase of tuition year over year, to heP i, it would actually be a larger increase than we do currently have when we link it to cP i. M. Mungall: That was exactly my point. heP i has in- creased at a steady pace, much faster and much higher than the cP i. So of course, you would have to be look - ing at increasing funding to post-secondary education. That's exactly the point.

The reason why heP i exists in the first place is that the basket of goods for post-secondary education is not the same as the basket of goods for your average person, which is what determines the cP i.

What determines heP i is very specific to post- secondary education. its volatility in the u nited States…. i don't know if we could really say that, because it seems to be quite consistent as it increases, and there hasn't been a consistent change in terms of the basket of goods for post-secondary institutions that determine heP i. t o me, i would really encourage the ministry to go back and review this work because it is a very useful tool for our neighbours just to the south.

Moving along, then. l ooking at the generally ac - cepted accounting principles — again, a major issue this year at the finance c ommittee. a ctually, it's not just this year but for several years. institutions have been talking

british c olumbia Debates7220 t hursday, May 19, 2011 about GaaP , having been brought in to what is called the general reporting entity of british c olumbia, of the province. of course, it has really constrained their abil - ity to go out and do fundraising. They've made recommendations to the finance c ommittee, which the finance c ommittee then adopted this year.

The report reads: "u rgently review the application of generally accepted accounting principles to universities and colleges, since existing policy is denying post- secondary institutions the opportunity to access outside capital, in particular for programs and infrastructure that are typically not funded by government." l ast year's report read: "e xamine the unintended consequences of the application of generally accepted accounting principles." Those recommendations have been in there two years running now. in fact, we heard something last spring in the Speech from the Throne to this effect.

The Speech from the Throne in 2010 said specifically: "improvements will be launched in advanced education as well. l egislation will be introduced enabling our universities to remove themselves from the government reporting entity. We cannot let accounting policies stand in the way of our students' interests or hold our universities back from pursuing their unique areas of excellence in partnership with others." n ow, that legislation did not come forward last spring. it did not come forward in the fall.

We didn't even sit in the fall. it doesn't seem like it's coming forward this spring. h as the ministry done this review of the recommenda- tions — two years running now, at the very least — from the finance c ommittee? if so, when will legislation, as previously committed by the b.c. l iberal government, be forthcoming? Hon. N. Y amamoto: The member opposite does raise an important issue. That's why, actually, government and…. There's a government and sector implementa - tion planning process that's underway currently, as you indicated.

The Ministry of a dvanced e ducation and the office of the comptroller general are working with the post-secondary institutions in support of a successful implementation of GaaP for this sector. [1030] t o facilitate this transition, a task force has been identified, which you recognize, to present options to a steering committee in the coming weeks. The task force, for your information, does include several institutions: c ollege of the r ockies, o kanagan c ollege, Douglas c ollege, Sfu , ubc, u niversity of the f raser Valley, uVic and Vancouver island u niversity.

There's also a steering committee that's made up of as- sociations that represent these institutions, which is the r esearch u niversities of b.c., bcaiu , b.c. c olleges and the office of the comptroller general. This is under active consideration right now, and they will be reporting out shortly. M. Mungall: i very much look forward to hearing that report, especially since this has been a longstanding advocacy point from b.c.'s institutions. on to the annual capital allowance. The annual cap - ital allowance to institutions was cut by 74 percent in the September 2009 budget, then again last year.

This brings us to a total cut of 78 percent since the 2009 budget. Presentations again to the finance c ommittee this year spoke to that. i just want to highlight a few of the phrases that we were left with, being a member of the Select Standing finance c ommittee. These are a few of the phrases we were left with. first is Marilyn l uscombe from Selkirk c ollege at the c astlegar public hearing.

She noted: "Government needs to start to restore the annual capital allowance back to pre-2009 levels. o ur aging infrastructures require care and attention to remain viable." Peter l ockie from c amosun c ollege also noted: "We use it to maintain our infrastructure. So deferring main- tenance can be done in the short term, but in the long term we'll just build up problems which will be even more expensive to fix." The finance c ommittee heard this and agreed and rec- ommended that the ministry start to restore the annual capital allowance allocation for post-secondary institu - tions back to 2009 levels.

My question is: what are the ministry's plans for the annual capital allowance? Hon. N. Y amamoto: The annual capital allowance, or the aca, remains at $12.6 million for '11-12. This is part of our government's plan to achieve a balanced budget by 2013-14. but let me remind the member opposite that the b.c . institutions continue to benefit from the largest post- secondary expansion in this province's history.

Since 2001 we've invested over $2 billion — in fact, $2.09 billion — in capital funding for 1,000 capital pro - jects in our institutions around the province. o n top of that, every single institution in b.c. received fund - ing through the knowledge infrastructure program for upgrades, renovations and new buildings and main - tenance projects. in fiscal 2010 the ministry initiated the facilities condition assessment project. i think this is what the member opposite was asking about.

This is a database that will be used as a tool in determining priority pro - jects for funding to address the backlog of deferred maintenance. M. Mungall: i think the important note here, though, is from institutions who are making the distinction be - tween major capital projects, new builds…. Some of those have been funded by the knowledge information program, kiP , that the minister mentioned. There's a difference between that and just the day-to-day main - tenance. if you can't keep up with the day-to-day

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 19, 2011 7221 maintenance, it just comes back to bite you later on down the road, and it bites with a much, much bigger line item or much bigger dollar figure. [1035] Just as an example here — tru's capital needs. They are saying that officials have identified about $6 million of upgrades that will be needed in coming years, but they're only getting $655,000. That's a huge discrepancy, and it really highlights the extent to which the aca is underfunded.

Going back to the minister…. a ctually, before i do that, i should also highlight that tru is not alone. of course, there are r oyal r oads u niversity, ubc and uVic campuses that have heritage buildings. They desperately need this type of funding to maintain the heritage build- ings for the benefit of not just students and faculty but the entire province as a whole, to retain our heritage architecture.

So again, just going back to the minister, if she can please explain why the ministry has, then, rejected the recommendation from the finance c ommittee, which of course, is a recommendation based on public consul- tation with over 3,000 british c olumbians. Hon. N. Y amamoto: The member opposite does raise an important issue.

We are very aware of this, which is why i'll remind the member opposite why we launched the facilities condition assessment project. a nd just for the member opposite's information, since 2000 we've actually invested $636 million in what you were men - tioning — the annual capital allowance. f or the member opposite's information, planning is a cycle. We're looking at what we're going to be requir - ing in terms of the deferred maintenance.

This project that we're undertaking will actually give us a list of the priority areas that need to be addressed so that in the next cycle of aca, we'll be able to identify those priority areas and address them. B. Ralston: i have a question that relates to the capital budget for Simon f raser u niversity's Surrey campus. if i might briefly set a context. The minister will recall that in the '90s a prize-winning tower, Surrey c entral city tower was built there with the intention to house, among other things, the t echnical u niversity. The architect for that award-winning tower was bing Thom.

Since then Sfu has taken over the university operation there and built steadily to the allotted capacity. The minister will be aware that in the South f raser re- gion the percentage of, if i can put it, university-bound or university-eligible students after high school is one of the lowest participation rates, regionally, in the prov - ince.

Studies show that the closer an advanced education facility is to the homes of those people, the more likely they are to participate. o bviously, kwantlen Polytechnic u niversity participates in servicing this area, as do some of the colleges as well. i'm interested, in particular, in the Surrey city centre. The minister will know that since then, using the prin- ciple of public investment to catalyze private investment, there's been considerable activity in the city centre. i recently attended a groundbreaking for a property, a 40- storey tower.

The developers are WestStone Properties. it's close to the city centre. [1040] The city of Surrey itself has a developed plan for the city centre, including a $50 million investment in a new city hall and a new Surrey central library, again designed by bing Thom. So there is a plan to develop the centre.

The univer - sity is an important part of that plan. both previous president Michael Stevenson and the current president, a ndrew Petter, have i think politely yet persistently lobbied the government and suggested that the 5,000 full-time-equivalent student capacity of the Surrey cam- pus of Simon f raser u niversity is not sufficient to meet the long-term demand. My first question is…. a commitment was made to supply the capital to enable the university to reach that 5,000-student threshold.

My further question is: what commitment is the government prepared to make, given that the planning conditions, the commitment by other levels of government, by private investment are all there to create a vibrant city centre of which an ex - panded university would be an important part? What is the long-term commitment of the government on the capital side to raise the full-time-equivalent capacity of this campus of Simon f raser u niversity to what i think would be more adequate, which would be something in the range of 15,000 students?

The commitment has been made to get to the 5,000, although i think recent entreaties from the current president have suggested that that may be a bit slow in coming. c ould the minister provide some assurance there, and secondly, what is the long-term plan? Hon. N.

Y amamoto: The member opposite does make some very good points. i agree that the Surrey Sfu campus is an important area that we should be looking at, especially in light of the rapid growth that the Surrey area has seen. i would like to remind the member opposite that this government has made a significant contribution to the Sfu Surrey campus — in fact, a contribution of over $80 million since 2001. This includes $5.3 million for Podium and then another additional $6.25 million for space for Podium 2. The actual Surrey campus initial in- vestment was almost $70 million.

Since 2005-06 we have added more than 7,000 stu - dent spaces in the boundary–f raser Valley region, and there are over 58,000 spaces at the six institutions within that region.

british c olumbia Debates7222 t hursday, May 19, 2011 B.

Ralston: i was more interested in less of a retro - spective analysis than a forward-looking analysis. [1045] What the president of Simon f raser has told the com- munity in public meetings is that he is actively pursuing further funding to enable the commitments that have been made in the present plan to be realized, to get the capacity at Sfu Surrey to the predicted 5,000 fte s. c an the minister, here in this h ouse, provide assur - ance to Simon f raser u niversity and to the community in north Surrey that that commitment is going to be honoured and the capital funds necessary to achieve the capital plan that the university has presented to the min- istry will be achieved?

That's the first question. Second question is…. What S fu says, and i'm quot - ing from their document — the draft five-year capital plan: "Without expansion of the Surrey campus, quali - fied students from the immediate area intending to enrol at S fu Surrey will not be able to be accommo - dated at this campus." So there's a demand there. it's very clear. i'm sure the ministry acknowledges that. The administration of Simon f raser u niversity is rightly concerned that that demand may not be able to be met.

Given what i know that cer - tainly the deputy minister is aware of — the labour market demand for skilled graduates of all types in the labour market of the future here in british columbia — one would think that that would naturally be a priority. i'm concerned about the government's short-term commitment, and i'm concerned about the government's long-term commitment to Simon f raser u niversity Surrey. i'm wondering if the minister here, publicly, can provide me with that assurance. Hon. N. Y amamoto: The member is right.

This is a rapidly growing area. r ight now we have 2,500 student spaces at the S fu Surrey campus, and we will be con - tinuing to work with S fu Surrey to ensure that we can meet the future demands. i'd like to mention to the member opposite that just yesterday afternoon, late afternoon, i was on the phone with the president of Sfu , and we talked about this very item.

So i can tell the member opposite that we do have a long-term commitment to address the needs of the Surrey area. one of the issues that we were working on was trying to assemble some real estate around the Surrey campus that currently exists, and we have helped S fu Surrey do that. There are actually some parking lots that we've purchased and assembled into a package for future expansion. So when we have the capacity, we will be ad- dressing the needs of Surrey. B.

Ralston: Well, i'm not surprised that the president of Sfu was on the phone. i know he's a very concerned and persistent but polite lobbyist on this front. When does the minister anticipate reaching the 5,000…? a nd this is a very intermediate step — the 5,000 full-time- equivalent student capacity that's been promised. i guess the concern is: when is the capital going to flow to real - ize that promise? Hon. N.

Y amamoto: We are in the middle of a cap - ital planning project right now. it's underway right now with respect to Surrey's needs and the rest of the prov - ince, but i can assure the member opposite: this is a top priority for me. [1050] i have heard it loud and clear from the president of Sfu . We will do what we can to work together to achieve the goals that this province, this government and S fu are looking forward to completing. D. Routley: i'd like to ask the minister about Vancouver island u niversity, which has campuses ad - jacent to both ends of my constituency.

Many students live in my constituency, and their families are affected by a situation that has occurred there. There was recently a strike, and the dispute was ob - viously fuelled by a perception of a lack of funding.

The students, the faculty and the administration all agree that funding has been inadequate from the province, that the transition to university status was never prop - erly funded and that they are facing continued declines in their ability to provide the programming that has been advertised. in fact, since the strike, their enrolment has declined. i wonder if the minister can offer any hope to Vancouver island u niversity that their funding might at least meet the demands that were imposed on the university when the b.c. l iberal government created a university out of a college but failed to fund that transition.

Hon. N. Y amamoto: We are providing Vancouver island u niversity with over $50 million in operating grants in 2011-12, and that grant has been stable. We have increased the operating funding to Vancouver island u niversity by almost 40 percent since 2001. We've also invested over $40 million in capital projects at the university since 2001. but i do recognize the challenges that Vancouver island u niversity is facing.

They're do - ing a great job managing these challenges. i know it's a difficult situation for them, but i'm confident that the administration, the faculty and the staff are working in the best interests of the students to succeed. Just an information note. i think that Vancouver island u niversity is looking forward to the opportun - ity to access the additional funding that's available for health seats and for skills seats that we offer. D. Routley: environmental issues are a concern for all government institutions, and there's an effort to

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 19, 2011 7223 make our institutions carbon-neutral. one of the ele - ments that i don't think is very often well considered is the issue of drinking water. [1055] a t Vancouver island u niversity there's an effort under- way to ban the bottle — to ban the sale of bottled water. Six out of ten plastic bottles are not recycled. This in c anada equates to 15 million barrels of oil being wasted in the production of bottles that are never recycled.

The students at Vancouver island u niversity are intent on ridding their campus of these plastic bottles and encour- aging students to use drinking fountains. but most of the capital projects that the minister has spoken about do not include drinking fountains. There are very few drinking fountains on the campus, so one of their efforts is to encourage the university and the government to invest in projects that would increase the number of drinking fountains available to students.

Does the minister support that effort, and can she of - fer the students any hope that the government might find a way to resource their effort? Hon. N.

Y amamoto: i also share the Vancouver island u niversity students' need to ensure that we are sensitive to some of the things that we do unintentionally to our environment or our planet. in this case, the production of the plastic water bottles is quite a concern. in fact, for the member opposite's information, i was considered a l iveSmart hero, and one of the things that i did…. i think this was the b.c. h ydro project. i said that i would actually reduce the amount of times that i would drink out of a plastic water bottle. it is challenging to find a water fountain. in fact, even in this building i'm not even sure the water coming out of the taps is actually that good to drink. i do know that the institutions do prioritize their issues on campus. if the institution determines that hav- ing more drinking fountains is a priority, they can access the aca funds to accommodate this. but i do agree that we should be looking at the amount of water bottles that we see produced.

L. Krog: i appreciate the opportunity to ask a ques - tion here this morning, knowing that our time is very limited. in particular, i want to ask this on be - half of my colleague, who has already spoken, from n anaimo–n orth c owichan; my colleagues from Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast, a lberni–Pacific r im; and others who have great concern about the state of Vancouver island u niversity. a s the minister well knows, the university went through a very difficult strike. one of the more awful re - sults is that wages were paid out, but now refunds have been granted to students who applied for a refund of tuition.

The minister well knows that notwithstanding what she talks about in terms of increases in the grants, the moneys going to Viu and the grant being stable, the fact is that costs are rising. Viu faces enormous financial difficulty, and this strike has been an incredible burden placed upon that institution. it's an institution that is a source of great pride in my community. The main campus of Viu is in my constituency.

They are now faced with the prospect of even cancelling something as innovative and import - ant as the green building program. [l. r eid in the chair.] My question to the minister this morning is: given the unique circumstances that this is the one institution in this country that has recently faced a strike, given that they have had to refund tuition, and given that they're already cut to the bone in every aspect of the operation there — and the minister herself has complimented the administration and staff and faculty who have done their best — is this government prepared to provide further funding to Viu to meet this extraordinary fiscal diffi - culty that they face arising out of the strike? if the minister is not, what it means is that the green building program and other programs are going to dis - appear — things that are important, things that have made Viu a leader.

Given the incredible work they've placed on attracting international students…. i think the minister is well aware that, in terms of international education, if you see it as an export because it brings money into the province…. i understand through num- bers recited by the former head of WorkSafe b.c., a leading economist, that it exceeds the value of the forest industry in the province of british c olumbia. [1100] So it is important. Viu is important. i want to hear from this minister this morning that the government is prepared to put up some more money to ensure that these kinds of cuts don't occur. Hon. N.

Y amamoto: i do share the concern that the member opposite expressed, particularly the negative impact that the strike had on the students that were at - tending Vancouver island u niversity. i can say, though, that we have been working very closely with the ad - ministration and staff at Vancouver island u niversity to assess the financial implications of this strike.

While it's true that Vancouver island u niversity is reimbursing tuition costs to some of the students dur - ing the strike, Vancouver island u niversity did not pay instructors during that strike. i have the authority, and i've given the authority to Vancouver island u niversity to allow the savings that were accrued during the strike to offset the costs of the strike and to refund student tu - itions where it was required. it will take a little while to determine the actual net impact that the strike had on the institution, which is

british c olumbia Debates7224 t hursday, May 19, 2011 why we're working very closely with them. i have ab - solute confidence that the administration and staff are working to resolve any issues outstanding. Y ou did mention something about international students. i want to say that i agree with you that inter - national students are a hugely important segment of our economy, in fact a huge contributor to our GDP . Vancouver island u niversity is actually a leader in this. We will be working very closely with them to ensure that there were no residual damages that have occurred be - cause of the strike. D.

Donaldson: first, congratulations to the minister for her newly appointed role as Minister of a dvanced e ducation. it's good to see the staff here supporting you. i have a question around a couple of items. n orthern l ights c ollege provides programming in the northeast part of the province for thousands of students. in fact, up until a year ago they also provided programming for two of the communities in my constituency as well, Dease l ake and a tlin. a s the minister is well aware, in 2009 the b.c. l iberals cut grant programs by $17 million and reduced the ac - tual number of grants.

That was in 2009 — $17 million. c oincidentally, not very long afterwards, in fact in May of 2010, n orthern l ights c ollege removed their pro - gramming services from both Dease l ake and a tlin. a reasonable thinking person would be able to make the connection, the reasonable link between the fact that grants weren't available for students and n orthern l ights c ollege having to remove these services because of a lack of students in the programming. [1105] n orthwest c ommunity c ollege is prepared to take up the gap and provide programming in Dease l ake. They are well-suited to that role.

Their School of e xploration and Mining just won an award yesterday as part of b.c . Mining Week.

They won the Mining and Sustainability a ward from the Mining a ssociation of b.c . but they have not been provided funding by the Ministry of a dvanced e ducation to put programming services into Dease l ake. n ow, the minister likely knows that the mining op - portunities are incredible in that area. it's unacceptable that a post-secondary training institute does not have a presence in a core area for where that mining is going to occur. l ocal people and their families need to have the best chance to take advantage of the opportunities in their own backyard. by this government not providing the post-secondary training facility in Dease l ake, it re - moves that opportunity from those families and from those people. i have a letter here that i wrote to the previous min - ister on May 5 of last year, over a year ago, outlining the concerns. i met with the previous minister at the ubcM last September along with the k itimat-Stikine regional district, which voiced those concerns as well.

The gap has meant that there was no post-secondary programming from a college in Dease l ake last fall, this winter and this spring, and now the worry is, again, this coming fall. i have two questions for the minister. first, will you commit to provide the resources to n orthwest c ommunity c ollege to deliver programming to Dease l ake in this year's budget? Secondly, on the grants issue, why have you failed, once again, to provide an adequate, financial needs–based, upfront grants system in this year's budget? Hon. N.

Y amamoto: i did have the opportunity to visit n orthwest c ommunity c ollege. in fact, i think they were the first college that i visited in my new role as a dvanced education Minister. i was really pleased to meet the new president, Dr. h enning, who has taken over the helm. i see great things happening in that area. Should n orthern l ights wish to transfer their re - sponsibilities to n orthwest c ommunity c ollege, with that transfer of responsibilities will come a transfer of funding.

So the funding will go from n orthern l ights to n orthwest c ommunity c ollege, if they wish to do that. [1110] both colleges actually have new presidents. i have just mentioned that i've met one of them, and they're in discussions about program delivery in that area. That's good to see.

The new presidents of n orthern l ights c ollege and n orthwest c ommunity c ollege and officials from my ministry will be going to Dease l ake and a tlin in July to hear about the educational needs in that area from the communities, from the people themselves. in the meantime, my staff are working under the labour market partnership program, which is re - sponding to community-based proposals to develop a comprehensive human resource strategy for the north - west. The reason why i mention this is because this is where the opportunity is for additional funding.

Just going back to n orthern l ights c ollege at the a tlin campus and at Dease l ake, they have actually made their facilities available to providers, including the b.c. a boriginal Mine t raining a ssociation — and i men - tion this because you do recognize this is an area that is important to mining; the Provincial c ourt of b.c.; and Yukon c ollege. in addition, n orthwest c ommunity c ollege is work - ing with b.c . h ydro, delivering entry-level training in various f irst n ation communities along the proposed northwest transmission line.

So they are responding to needs of the labour market and the business commun - ity there.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 19, 2011 7225 M. Mungall: i just want to turn the direction to fte s. i was noting from a press release that was sent out by the b.c. f ederation of Post-Secondary e ducators that while there's a slight increase to operating grants, which we know, there's actually about 3,000 fewer fte students in the coming year. i want to know from the minister if this projection, first, is accurate. a lso, have post-secondary seats been cut for this year? Hon. N.

Y amamoto: i'm going to read these numbers out, because i can understand the confusion. [1115] Y ou're asking me about the apparent decrease in about 3,000 student spaces from 2010-11 to the 2011-12 target. in years of high demand such as 2010-2011 saw, some institutions were actually able to exceed their student intake above the ministry target. So while student fore - casts for 2010-2011 is over 205,000 spaces, the ministry target is 203,401 spaces. This means that institutions are forecasting delivery of about 1,600 student spaces more than our target. That's one point.

The difference between the 2010-11 target of 203,401 spaces and the 2011-12 target of 201,792 spaces, which is that apparent reduction of about 1,600 spaces…. This really reflects the estimated reduction in the trades- training activity, which is funded by ita in public institutions and which accounts for 1,894 spaces. What happens is that this reduction is offset by a planned increase in new student spaces by 285. So in the end the system is growing by 285 spaces.

That's the actual net growth. i can go over that again, because i actually have to write it out by hand myself. it makes sense when you see it in writing, but it has to do with the overachievement from 2010 and the targeted spaces we have for 2011- 2012. but there's an overall growth of 285 seats. We'll send it to you in writing. M.

Mungall: Please do send that to me in writing; that will be fantastic. of course, hearing numbers and then seeing them on paper are two very different ways of understanding them. i did hear you say that there's a target fte that the ministry has and that schools have, in the past, exceeded that target. i'm just wondering: are those seats that ex - ceed the target still funded? Hon. N. Y amamoto: The simple answer to your question is no.

We don't fund the additional seats that institutions may actually achieve. but we do see that some institutions exceed the capacity and some don't. in the end it balances out. but for those institutions that actually do exceed their targets, they're able to do that because they realize economies of scale, and the in - cremental extra seats that they're able to have in their institutions isn't as large of a cost. M. Mungall: So the ministry isn't funding them. it sounds like the minister is saying that they're able to fund them with existing internal funds. a m i hearing that right? Hon. N.

Y amamoto: The answer to your question is yes. if you can imagine a classroom, and there is a need for a student to enter a class which actually puts them over the top for the number of students that it's pre - dicted to have, there isn't really that much more of a cost to have that extra student in that class. That's how the in- stitutions manage it. but on the flip side, if an institution actually doesn't meet its capacity or its target, we don't take away funding either. [1120] M.

Karagianis: i'd like to ask a very specific ques - tion about r oyal r oads u niversity. a s the minister may be aware, the very unique aspects of what the univer - sity offers in the way of courses — entrepreneurialism, business management, environment and sustainability, leadership, tourism and hospitality…. They are all very specific and timely courses that are offered in the cur - rent economy and are quite vital to the current economy.

Most often this is for students who are pursuing some - thing slightly past the initial post-secondary education courses they may take. i'm very concerned by the student grant programs, which have been diminished over the last number of years since 2001 quite significantly. i'm wondering now, looking at the criteria for student grants, why there has been no effort made to ensure that students who are pursuing things like environment and sustainability have equal access to grants. Most of the grants look to me to be very constrained to a very specific demographic — students with dis - abilities, etc.

Y et this is such a vital and key part of an economy and the future economy that i'm disappointed that there are not more eligibility opportunities for stu - dents at r oyal r oads. c ould the minister elaborate on why the grants are so constrained and what other options are available for students to take

part in these economic future-forward opportunities and courses that are really important to the future of the economy of this region and of the whole province? Hon. N. Y amamoto: i do agree with the member opposite. Y ou know, i would like to take a look at the eligibility criteria of our students. We are delivering post- secondary education now in so many different ways that we never imagined ten or 15 years ago, including on- line training and students going to school part-time. i will take a look at the eligibility criteria for student loans for our students, especially those ones that are attending r oyal r oads u niversity and on-line courses.

british c olumbia Debates7226 t hursday, May 19, 2011 M. Mungall: i'm just wondering if the minister can give us a broad overview of some of the post-secondary enrolment trends in b.c. [1125] Hon. N. Y amamoto: a gain, these will be numbers that i'm reading out to you, and i'd be pleased to pro - vide them to you later. if we're talking about fte s in our public post-secondary system, we're looking at an increase. i'm just going to go back the last three years. in 2007-2008 we were seeing 186,749 fte s; the year following we were seeing 195,317 fte s; and then last year, 203,896 fte s.

Then if we go by head count, be - cause that's actually sometimes more relevant for me than fte s, we were looking at 443,215 in 2007-08; the year following, an increase to 458,815; then last year, 465,035. That's head count. a nother stat that you might be interested in is our cre- dentials. in 2007 we saw 52,730, in 2008 we saw 54,595, and then in 2009 we saw 55,500. M. Mungall: l et's get away from all these numbers just for a bit.

Just looking at private institutions, specific- ally let's start with the eQa, education quality assurance. c an the minister provide details of the revenues and expenses of the eQa board with respect to the applica - tions from private and out-of-province institutions? Hon. N. Y amamoto: i would like to get back to the member opposite with that information after the break. M. Mungall: That's fine. Then i was looking at the Watson report.

They have 13 recommendations that were delivered in that report in 2008. it's been three years. i'm just wondering why the ministry continues to ignore the report on private post-secondary schools. i can't find a single thing that looks like a recommendation has been implemented, other than the eQa, which was announced the same time the recommendations came out. So it's hard to say whether that was actually following any of the recommendations. [1130] Hon. N. Y amamoto: c ould the member opposite indicate what the 13 recommendations from the Watson report are that she was referring to? M.

Mungall: This is a report that was commissioned by the b.c. l iberal government. They should have access to that report. They should know these recom - mendations. is the minister saying that she is completely unfamiliar with a report that was crucial to the private post-secondary schools and protecting students? Hon. N. Y amamoto: i was asking which recommen - dations the member opposite is referring to. M. Mungall: a ll 13 of them. Hon. N. Y amamoto: There were actually 16 formal recommendations made.

So when i asked the member opposite what 13 she was referring to, i think i was a little confused. but i'm pleased to report that al - most half of those 16 recommendations were either in whole or in

part implemented, and there were only five recommendations at that time for which implementa - tion was not considered. M. Mungall: Well, in the report it does…. Y ou can tally it off as 16, but in the report there are actually 13 sections. Some of them have — like recommendation 11 — an (

a) and a (

b) component to them. That's just a mat - ter of semantics — the 16 versus 13. n ow, the minister has said that almost half have been implemented either in whole or in part. c an she please elaborate on that so we have some more spe - cifics around what kind of implementation has been done to date? Hon. N. Y amamoto: i will go through this. i would be happy to provide the member opposite with a copy of it, because it's rather lengthy. r ecommendation 1(

a) was to implement "a more rigorous registration process that includes educational standards." The actions taken were: basic education standards for registered institutions implemented. it was effective June 1, 2009, and that became bill 43. r ecommendation 1(

b) was to "replace voluntary ac - creditation with mandatory outcomes-based quality assurance…."The action taken: the accreditation re - mains voluntary, but it will become outcomes-based effective June 1, 2009. r ecommendation 2: "c reate a charter of student rights and responsibilities" and "implement a student com - plaint system based on that charter." The student charter is being considered but not being developed at this time. l egislative amendments to provide for a student complaint mechanism and timely financial redress for students that have been purposely misled by institutions will come into force June 1, 2009. again, that was bill 43. [1135] r ecommendation 3.

That recommendation was to keep regulatory functions with Pctia, the Private c areer t raining institutions a gency. That recommen - dation was accepted. That was status quo, so no action was required there. r ecommendation 4. The act should also cover aca - demic programs below the associate degree level. This recommendation was not implemented. The option is for schools offering these programs to voluntarily register.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 19, 2011 7227 r ecommendation 5. r eregulation of english-as-a- second language, or eS l, school. The recommendation was not implemented. The option is for schools offering these programs to voluntarily register. r ecommendation 6(a). Move to a fully appointed rather than elected board with a majority of public inter- est, as opposed to industry, members. This was partially implemented effective n ovember 27, 2008.

The Pctia board permanently is comprised of seven elected indus- try members and three public interest members. a gain, that was bill 43. r ecommendation 6(b). r estructure fees and charges to reduce Stcf contributions, ensure costs of operating the agency are borne fairly by institutions, ensure Pctia operations are adequately funded and charge back costs to new and non-compliant institutions rather than to all institutions in that sector. S tcf contributions have been amended to reduce contributions for institutions with a history of compliance.

Pctia fees are also being restructured, effective June 1, 2009, to level the playing field between large and small institutions and reward in- stitutions with a history of compliance. r ecommendation 7. increase deterrence to non- compliance by expanding offences listed in the act; strengthening independence of registrar, allowing for progressive discipline, including fines and penalties and allowing the registrar to limit the activities of non- compliant institutions.

This recommendation was not implemented. a n approach of rewarding compliant in - stitutions was taken instead. r ecommendation 8: "expand the use of regulations and bylaws and…implement existing authority to establish classes of institutions…to provide for greater flexibility in the area of fees, quality assurance and enforcement." e xpanding use of regulations and bylaws was not im - plemented. it's inconsistent with current government direction. c lasses and institutions established for new fee structure and potential for these provisions to be used for other purposes. r ecommendation 9. r equire schools that admit international students to be subject to a high level of oversight.

This was not implemented. r ecommendation 10. Streamline D aa and Pctia acts. This longer-term item requires considerable work and analysis. r ecommendation 11(a). r equire institutions to self- report non-compliance. This was not implemented, as legislative change was required. r ecommendation 11(b). Pctia should give per - formance guarantees with respect to processing times for various documents.

This was not implemented. it re- lates to the internal workings of Pctia . a shareholder's letter of expectations between the ministry and Pctia has been developed, and one of the items included is for Pctia to continue to review and improve their activities to ensure efficiency, effectiveness and accountability. r ecommendation 12(a): "P ctia should conduct periodic reviews of its activities." a shareholder's let - ter of expectations between the ministry and P ctia has been developed and includes the following actions: improve public awareness and understanding of the agency's processes and roles; enhance data collections to support production of an annual institution enrol - ment report to be published on the agency's website by June 1 each year; and continually review and improve Pctia 's activities to ensure efficiency, effectiveness and accountability. [1140] r ecommendation 12(d) — but it could be 12 (a). n o recommendations related to (

b) and (c). The Minister should have greater powers, including approving Pctia bylaws, and increased scope for use of regula - tions. This was not implemented. The minister's current powers to direct changes to bylaws or require new ones are greater than the recommendations that the minister approve bylaws. Then, finally, recommendation 13: "engage with ab - original institutions and organizations about ways to help them strengthen and sustain their post-secondary" education.

This is a longer-term item, and work needs to be done — to be considered in context with initiatives such as the aboriginal forums and the ministry's policy work with first n ations e ducation Steering c ommittee and the post-secondary Mou partners' table regarding the role of aboriginal institutions. i have this document, and i can provide that to you later. M. Mungall: Y es, i would very much like a copy of that. Just going back, though, to recommendation 9. i thought that was very interesting for the minister to say that that has not been implemented.

That concerns me because one of the issues that drove the government to commission this report was actually complaints by both the c hinese and the indian consulates around es - sentially — my understanding is — fraud of students coming from those respective countries. it seems to me that this is a crucial recommendation to ensure that there's an oversight protecting international students — particularly important as we increase inter - national students here in british c olumbia. tru is an excellent example of where their british c olumbian student enrolments have stagnated. h owever, they have grown on the international student side.

That's, of course, a public institution. h ere we're talking about private institutions, where we do see that similar situation happening at private institutions. Y et the minister is saying that recommendation 9 has not been implemented. That is of grave concern. is there a plan to implement recommendation 9?

british c olumbia Debates7228 t hursday, May 19, 2011 Hon. N. Y amamoto: Y es, we do recognize and value our reputation for quality post-secondary edu - cation in british c olumbia. We will continue to put in place measures to strengthen and enhance our educa - tion quality and protection of students, particularly international students. We will be looking at ways to strengthen accountability. Just for the member opposite's information, there are about 200 e Sl schools in british c olumbia. They register with Pctia voluntarily.

This is consistent with other jurisdictions in c anada and most of the neigh - bouring a merican states. We don't intend to regulate private e Sl schools in a way that would be substantially different from the regulations in our neighbouring jurisdictions. What i really want to say is that the e Sl schools that meet government's recognized quality assurance standards — that's the eQa, which you've mentioned earlier — will be able to actually apply for the e Qa status. That has gone a long ways to addressing the need for accountability for our students, particularly those from china and india. M.

Mungall: My understanding is…. e arlier on i think the minister said that there are only 60 private schools that have eQa status. Meanwhile there are 200 eS l schools alone — that's not including other private schools — that are registered with Pctia on a volun - tary basis. So what's going on with the other 140? [1145] The Chair: h on. Members, if i might take this oppor- tunity to ask you to join me in welcoming the students of h amilton e lementary School — 38 grade 5 students and their teacher — who have joined us in the gallery. Hon. N.

Y amamoto: The education quality assurance program — or eQa, as we know it — was introduced in n ovember of 2009, and it is our brand for quality post- secondary education. it's a strong brand. it's a very, very strong brand. it is in the interests of private institutions to want to be able to be designated as an eQa institution. it will be hugely advantageous for them competitively if they can adopt that brand. it is voluntary for the private post-secondary institu - tions, the eS l schools, if they choose not to adopt that brand. but in the competitive world — and the brand, we know, is strong — we'll be seeing an increased num - ber of those private eS l schools looking to achieve that brand. it's the first of its kind in c anada.

What eQa does is it allows students to make an in - formed decision about where they want to study and allows them to choose the best experience for that edu - cation in b.c. it promotes high-quality b.c. institutions both domestically and abroad, and it allows students to recognize which institutions have met the government- recognized quality standards. it's an important business tool, but what i want to per- haps just remind the member opposite is that it is one tool. The other area of protection for students is a con - sumer protection that they receive when they enrol in a private institution in b.c. M.

Mungall: i thank the minister for her response. it's generated a couple of more questions for me on this one. first, i'll ask the question around eQa. She noted that there's marketing done to promote the eQa so that international students are aware of it and that schools under that brand meet a certain standard that the prov - incial government has set out. is that marketing under that $1.5 million i earlier spoke about in reference to that line 67? Hon. N. Y amamoto: n o, it's actually bccie, which is the british c olumbia c ouncil for international e ducation, that markets this on our behalf. M.

Mungall: Then i'm assuming that the minister is saying that the bccie, who does the marketing of the eQa on the province's behalf…. h ow much money do they get to do that? [1150] Hon. N. Y amamoto: bccie receives $1.5 million from us, but that actually is for all their operations, all their activities. So the part of their activities which is marketing is a portion of this. i don't know what that portion is, but i would be pleased to get back to the member opposite to find out what the marketing por - tion of their overall operating fund is. M. Mungall: i would appreciate that breakdown.

The other question that came from the minister's response there is the consumer protection compon - ent for students. n ow, i'd like a little bit more detail on that, because of course she noted that recommendation n o. 2 from the Watson report is being considered.

That recommendation was, and i'll read it out: "create a char - ter of student rights and responsibilities, implement a student complaint system based on that charter and give the registrar discretion to address issues of student pro - tection with or without student complaints." The minister has spoken to that already, noting that there have been some results for a student complaint system that arrived from bill 43 and was implemented in June 2009. if the minister can talk specifically to what she meant by the consumer protection system…. i'm particularly concerned about that, because, of course, recently, over the last few months students at the c olumbia a cademy and u niversity c anada West found themselves within a matter of days no longer with a pro- gram. one day they're going to school, and the next day

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 19, 2011 7229 they're not going to school. i would like to know what kind of complaint system they have so that they could register any complaints, should they have them. Hon. N. Y amamoto: n oting the hour and that the response may take a little bit more time, i move that the committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The Chair: Member for n elson-creston. M. Mungall: Thank you, c hair.

W e have actually had three young post-secondary students in the gallery all morning watching estimates. it really shows the power of t witter, because if i am correct, they are here because i put out a large tweet to post-secondary institutions' hashtags, inviting students to send me their questions. in fact, not only did we get questions, but we got students coming here to watch the democratic process happen. W e have Jennifer bowie, Dylan Sherlock and Jaraad Marani, who are up in the gallery. Will the house please make them welcome. The Chair: h on. Members, you've heard the motion. Motion approved.

The committee rose at 11:54 a.m. The h ouse resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. c ommittee of Supply (Section b), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. c ommittee of Supply (Section a), having reported resolutions, was granted leave to sit again. h on. b. Penner moved adjournment of the house. Motion approved. Mr. Speaker: This h ouse stands adjourned until 1:30 this afternoon. The h ouse adjourned at 11:55 a.m. PROCEEDINGS IN THE DOUGLAS FIR ROOM Committee of Supply e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y of en Viron Ment (continued) The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply (Section a); D. h orne in the chair.

The committee met at 10:08 a.m. on Vote 25: ministry operations, $100,483,000 (con- tinued). The Chair: Minister, would you like to reacquaint us with the staff you have with us? Hon. T. Lake: i have with me today our deputy min - ister, c airine MacDonald. i have Jim Standen, who is with our environmental protection division. i have Scott benton, executive director of special projects; and a nthony Danks, executive director of strategic policy branch.

We have numerous other staff members that will be helping us out as we move through the estimates this morning. if i could just put on the record some information that arose out of our estimates debate yesterday. a couple of things — a couple of small corrections. i had mentioned yesterday, in talking about the com - munity gaming grants…. i just want to correct the record that these community gaming grants are now under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of c ommunity, Sport and c ultural Development.

They were formerly under the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General. a lso, i want to correct a statement i made about the diversity in british c olumbia when we were talking about the species at risk. i said that we had the highest level of biodiversity in n orth a merica, and i just wanted to correct that.

We do support the highest diversity of broad-ranging ungulates and large carnivores in n orth a merica and the highest level of biodiversity across the board in c anada. [1010] There was also a question about the number of pro - jects in the environmental assessment process over the last several years.

Just to read into the record that in 2009-2010 there were 78 projects in total; in 2010-2011, 76; and in current 2011-2012 year there are 70. one other question arose yesterday. a member asked about vehicles, and the question was: "Does the minis - ter know how many vehicles have been returned to his ministry or not in use due to funding restrictions in the last two fiscal years?" i'd like to reply that the ministry has reduced its fleet by 64 vehicles from 2008 to the current year, to a num - ber of 320.

Part of this reduction is a result of working collectively with other ministries in the natural resource sector. We have asset- and vehicle-sharing agreements that are aimed at using our resources as effectively as possible and reducing costs related to ownership or rental of assets across the sector. R. Fleming: i would like to ask the minister about Metro Vancouver's solid waste management plan. it has been completed and given to the Ministry of

british c olumbia Debates7230 t hursday, May 19, 2011 environment since September 2010. i would ask him whether he has a specific

schedule or an anticipated time when he will reply to Metro Vancouver about the solid waste management plan. Hon. T. Lake: This is an extensive plan that staff have been busily reviewing and spending a lot of time on. The ministry staff are expected to give the plan to me in the next three weeks. it will take me some time to go through their analysis of the plan, but i understand, certainly, the level of interest there is in not only Metro Vancouver but in the f raser Valley and other parts of the province as well.

We want to make sure we do a thorough job reviewing the plan, and once the review takes place with staff, i will want to make sure i have an adequate amount of time to review the plan myself. h opefully, we'll be able to get back to Metro Vancouver with a decision on the plan this summer. R.

Fleming: The plan includes both out-of-region and in-region waste energy incinerators as part of its treat - ment of solid waste and landfill management. i wanted to ask the minister, because no decision has been made yet, why on the provincial government's major project inventory, incinerator projects — listed to the tune of $500 million capital investments — are included in that inventory when the ministry has indeed not given a signal and not made a decision on Metro's waste man - agement plan. Hon. T.

Lake: Well, i'm not intimately familiar with the capital plan, but my understanding is, Member, that the capital plan is kind of looking out to see what poten- tial major projects could be happening in the province of british c olumbia, both in the public and the private sector. of course, there has been considerable discus - sion about waste energy projects in the media. it's my understanding that it's kind of a forward- looking document to sort of signal what potential projects could be on the list of things that would hap - pen. i also understand that lots of projects are put on that list that never do materialize.

So it's not a commit - ment on anyone's part to endorse a project, certainly not in this case. [1015] R.

Fleming: There are a number of aspirational goals around waste diversion to reduce our reliance on landfills that are littered in government reports and in regional district regulations. o bviously, the biggest tar - get that the Ministry of environment and other levels of government are working on is organic material — getting that out of the waste stream and turning it into other products and reducing greenhouse gas emissions from organic material. u nlike n ova Scotia, british c olumbia does not have a ban on organic material being dumped in landfills or being incinerated.

So i'm wondering whether the min - ister is looking at some of the c limate a ction t eam's recommendations that look at emissions savings prov - incewide for treating organic material very differently in british c olumbia than we have in past practice and what that means in terms of working with the regional dis - tricts — not just Metro Vancouver, but all of them.

Will there be new regulations coming down around organic material? a nd if there are, will there be sup - ports helping local governments implement the capital and the investments that would be required to turn the organic material into a useful product and to capture any greenhouse gases that come from that? Hon. T. Lake: The climate action secretariat has dis - cussed, as the member mentioned, some aspirational goals around diverting organic matter from the waste stream. c ertainly, we support that.

The solid waste management plans are created by regional districts and municipalities, and are approved by the Ministry of environment and are encouraged to divert as much as possible. The Metro Vancouver plan talks a lot about diversion of organics, and some munici- palities, i believe, have banned organics from the waste stream.

So we're certainly moving in that direction. i know that in the city of k amloops we have a very robust composting program — very popular with residents — and we certainly encourage that. i'm glad the member agrees that organic composting is an effective way of dealing with that part of the waste stream. it represents an economic opportunity too, in terms of creating fertilizer and reusable soil essentially, through the composting of organic matter. R.

Fleming: i certainly recognize that organic ma - terial and composting facilities and capital investment that companies could make in doing that efficiently and effectively — with all kinds of odour control mechanisms that would make it more palatable, perhaps, for urban environments — are something that british c olumbia could create an investment environment for. This is a problem that….

We're looking to expand a sia-Pacific trade opportunities. if british c olumbia were to lead and create technologies that countries like c hina and india and places where there is a real solid waste management problem, that could be a very strong and viable market. u nfortunately, we're not going to be able to do that unless we have some regulations. [1020] n ova Scotia is probably the most advanced province in the country, because in the late 1990s they did ban organic material. n ow we have recommendations to the british c olumbia government from its c limate a ction t eam.

We have Metro Vancouver, which on a good day

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 19, 2011 7231 diverts about 55 percent of solid waste from landfills. it needs to get to 70 percent or 80 percent, and i don't see that happening without legal remedies to get that matter out of the waste stream. i would ask the minister: are there discussions hap - pening and legislative proposals that government is either sitting on or contemplating so that we can derive some kind of benefits from that, and help, so we don't just have a couple of municipalities here and there that are doing this but that it's a provincewide action that will help us with our provincewide emission reduction totals?

Hon. T. Lake: Well, legislation isn't necessarily the only tool available.

We do work very closely and col - laboratively with municipalities and regional districts as they create their solid waste management plans. in a comparison with n ova Scotia, i would say that british c olumbia has some challenges that are somewhat unique to british c olumbia in terms of topography and different climate and our animal population, wildlife population. one of the concerns that we worry about in terms of diverting organic matter — food matter, particularly — from the waste stream is the concern around bears and raccoons and other wildlife that would be attracted by that organic matter.

So while the goal of diverting that from the waste stream is admirable, i think we have to be very thoughtful about the way we do that. i know there are bear a ware coordinators throughout the province who have expressed concern to me about the need to do that in a thoughtful way so that we don't increase the attractants to wildlife. of course, in many parts of british c olumbia this human-wildlife inter - action is problematic. We do encourage diversion of organic matter from the waste stream.

Some municipalities and some regional districts, in their solid waste management plans, have banned the disposal of grass clippings and food mat - ter from the waste stream, and we certainly work with all of those jurisdictions to encourage that and to do it in a thoughtful way that doesn't cause unintended consequences. R. Fleming: Well, the reason i'm asking these ques - tions is because the minister said it's a delicate matter — the Metro Vancouver waste management plan that he's received. The government has taken some time in considering it. They have not signed off on it.

There are issues to navigate. indeed, one of them is around waste incinerator pro - posals contained within that plan. The business case of operating an incinerator, and the costs of that, i think, depends very heavily on what the regulations are for or- ganic material and other diversion tactics and products that we might get out of our landfills. There are potentially competing economic interests here where, on the one hand, the incinerator compan - ies would see organic material as feedstock to create an energy commodity that has a price to it that they can achieve,

whereas in terms of the province, we have an interest in reducing greenhouse gases, which are now targets that are in law. So i would ask the minister: does he have ministry staff working on this potential problem where we may have different interests that compete with how a region wishes to dispose of its waste and how the province, which takes responsibility for greenhouse gas reduction, may see things differently? There is one incinerator facility in Metro Vancouver today. it's the fourth-largest emitter in all of Metro Vancouver.

There's a proposal now to add more of them, and that in itself creates a problem as well. [1025] Hon. T. Lake: Well, certainly the issue of organic mat- ter and the production of greenhouse gases is something that we're concerned about and work on with munici - palities and regional districts. n ow, 178 communities around british c olumbia have signed the climate action charter committing to be carbon-neutral by 2012.

We're certainly working with communities on strategies to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. r egulations are in place for the capture of landfill gas, and we know that is certainly something that has renewed interest around the province. We've heard proposals to capture landfill gas and create biogas to power trucks.

We understand that there are proposals for organic matter composting facilities on a larger scale, which would be a good use of organic material. in terms of incineration, it's my understanding that organic matter in food waste is not a very efficient feed stock for incineration — not the primary feed stock for those types of operations. but as i mentioned, in terms of waste-to-energy projects, these are all things that have been talked about, proposed, but certainly, nothing that has been permitted in terms of the solid waste management plan coming forward.

That still has to be reviewed and decisions made at the local level in terms of the strategies they use for dealing with their solid waste. R. Fleming: Solid waste and the incinerator in Metro Vancouver has brought up another issue around calcula- tion of greenhouse gases and, i think, a dispute between Metro Vancouver and the province on how those are cal- culated. i wanted to see if the minister could comment on the differences between methodologies for calculating a tonnage of Gh Gs over the threshold where reporting is required.

Metro Vancouver has looked at how the prov- ince calculates the emissions at the incinerator facility, which i think was calculated at 118,000 tonnes.

british c olumbia Debates7232 t hursday, May 19, 2011 [J. Thornthwaite in the chair.] Metro Vancouver is arguing that there is another method, consistent with the un's iPcc and the federal government's, which would give a considerably lower calculation of 103,000 tonnes. i know that there was a letter to the deputy minister about this exact issue. Given that we're six or seven months away from a cap-and- trade agreement in the Wci and need to decide on the methodology, i wonder if the minister has responded to the manager of Metro Vancouver and what the details of that response are. [1030] Hon. T.

Lake: My understanding is that there are discussions ongoing with Metro Vancouver on this par- ticular issue. The issue arises over what is considered organic versus non-organic material. but i also want to report that any emitter over 10,000 tonnes has to report their emissions, and those over 25,000 tonnes would be included in the cap-and-trade model that we are look - ing at. a ll of that is aligned with our Western c limate initiative partners. one of the strengths of what we've done over the last several years is to create a single-window reporting methodology with the federal government.

That's one of the strengths of what we've been doing on the climate action file over the last several years.

Whereas there may be some discussion over 118,000 versus 103,000, about a 10 percent difference there, the province and Metro are discussing this, and those dis - cussions are ongoing. R.

Fleming: i'm sure those discussions are, and maybe we'll pick it up later when Metro Vancouver gets a response. i wanted to ask the minister kind of a basic question about where recycling in this province began, which was with deposit-fee beverage return programs, i believe that in the 1970s it literally took litter and waste that was in our face and in our streets and in our communities. it has been incredibly successful and has longevity based on that track record. o ur province was a leader in that regard for many, many decades.

We've slipped behind a lberta now in recovery rates on beverage containers, and we haven't added signifi - cantly to the deposit-based system for different types of beverage packaging. i'm wondering if the minister has contemplated expanding and doing some things that our neighbours in a lberta are now doing around, for example, milk beverage containers — cartons which end up in landfills in british c olumbia, currently. t etra packaging and juice pouches, which have a very low re - covery rate, are also a problem. it has been suggested that inclusion of milk contain - ers, for example, in the deposit system could have a very positive effect on achieving the 70 and 80 percent waste diversion targets that many regional districts now have and could help us enjoy a lberta-type recovery rates for milk. a re those discussions that are happening with the industry? it's always puzzled me that a four-litre jug does have a deposit, can be recycled and get a deposit return, but if it's in a different type of container — the same product — it can't be.

The absurdity is even that juice and other types of packaging that do have a deposit are the very same style of packaging unit as some of the dairy prod - ucts, but there is not a uniform deposit system. That is why we have perhaps a 30 or 40 percent lower return rate on those containers than our neighbours in alberta. [1035] Hon. T. Lake: i'm happy to report that b.c.'s return rate in terms of deposit containers is about 70 percent, which is certainly, i think, meeting our targets. c an we do better? Y eah, i think we always want to see how we can improve.

We are working on other particular pro - grams — packaging and printed paper, for instance. Milk containers would be included in that scenario. i am meeting with industry. in fact, i have a meeting set up in the very near future with the bottle depot re - cycling industry to discuss this very issue. it's something where we always want to make sure that we are doing our very best to meet our targets and achieve our ob - jectives of keeping material out of the waste stream. So certainly, i'm alive to the issue of milk containers. V .

Huntington: i wonder if i could ask the minister if he has read or been briefed on the a uditor General's re- port on the management of groundwater resources. Hon. T. Lake: i certainly recognize the importance of sustainability of water, and our l iving Water Smart pro- gram recognizes the importance of this issue in terms of british c olumbia. a s we face the growing population and the challenges of climate change, this will become an even more important issue.

The a uditor's report does present valuable infor - mation on the importance of groundwater, and we do certainly recognize and appreciate the input from the a uditor General. The report was, i think, discussed at Public a ccounts last fall. We are working through those recommendations, much of those through the modernization of the Water a ct.

We are moving through that process with more public consultation with key stakeholders, and much of the a uditor General's report will be addressed through that process. it's estimated that significant progress will be made through the modernization of the Water a ct, and much of the a uditor General's report will be ad - dressed in that way. [1040]

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 19, 2011 7233 V . Huntington: i would like, however, to canvass two or three of the recommendations in the report and see to what stage the ministry is adequately working on the groundwater situation. firstly, i'd like to know…. one of the recommenda - tions regarded the classification of provincial aquifers for all priority areas. i wonder if the minister could ad - vise us what priority areas the provincial ministry has identified to this point. Hon. T.

Lake: Ministry staff estimate there are sev - eral thousand aquifers in the province, and about 2,000 are developed or, in other words, actively being used. t o date over 900 have been classified, according to their vulnerability and demand — many of those in the o kanagan, where we know there is certainly concern in terms of groundwater; the east side of Vancouver island; and in the l ower Mainland. The ministry is continually identifying aquifers that remain to be mapped. V .

Huntington: c ould i ask, then, of the minister whether his department has reviewed the intense use of groundwater up in the northern oil and gas fields? Hon. T. Lake: The use of water in the northeast part of the province with the oil and gas industry, or the gas industry primarily, has been the subject of discussion. We certainly are aware of the concerns. l ast year the use of surface water, for instance. i think there were a couple of creeks that were of concern to the ministry, so we're monitoring that situation on an ongoing basis.

We work very closely with the oil and Gas c ommission in terms of water use in the gas industry. They are the regulator, but we work very closely with them and with Geoscience b.c. i recognize the concern that the member is express - ing and that others in british c olumbia have expressed in terms of the amount of water being used and the way the water is being used in the northeast sector. We'll be working very closely, and through the modernization of the Water a ct, that issue has certainly become a promin- ent issue in that process. V .

Huntington: i understand that the entire issue is actually being looked at in energy and Mines, not within the Ministry of environment. i'd like to know the rationale for that. Hon. T. Lake: Well, the oil and Gas c ommission is under the Ministry of energy and Mines, so the mem - ber is correct. h owever, we have been working very diligently over recent years to try and coordinate and integrate services of government, particularly as they re- late to the natural resource sector.

Whereas one ministry may have jurisdiction for per - mitting — the oil and Gas c ommission in this instance; f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations in other instances — our ministry, the Ministry of environment, works very closely in terms of informing policy around those permitting decisions. We feel that the integration that's occurring and the scrutiny that's applied are serv - ing british c olumbians well. [1045] V .

Huntington: if the ministry has no integrated watershed management plan for the northeast sector and if it is not mapping the aquifers…. i understand that Geoscience, which is an industry-captured agency, is mapping it, and the ministry is supportive of that in - dustrial mapping. My concern is that the ministry itself, responsible for the policies for water stewardship in the province, is not on top of this as the agency developing that policy.

Y ou are working with energy and Mines and with the oil and Gas c ommission, but the overall integrated policy regarding both the groundwater and the watershed itself is not being developed by your ministry. i'd like to know what the specific relationship is be - tween the Ministry of environment, n atural r esource o perations and the oil and Gas c ommission. if you have no overarching policy with regard to water use in the northeast sector, then how do any of these bodies know what they should be permitting and what with - drawals are acceptable? Hon. T.

Lake: The member characterizes the situation, i think, in a very different way than it actually occurs. The ministry has spent over $200,000 on the consulta - tion process around the water modernization. it has been a very well-received process. Public input has ex - ceeded expectations, so we will continue to consult with different groups. a s the member may be aware if she has looked at the policy development around that piece of developing legislation, the area-based process has certainly high - lighted that british c olumbia is a very diverse province and that there's not a one-size-fits-all.

There are areas — we've mentioned the o kanagan, the northeast part of the province and the l ower Mainland — where the pres - sure on water is greater than in other areas. The policy development addresses those sorts of issues. Moving forward, we understand and recognize the uniqueness of different areas of the province.

Policies that this ministry will develop in consultation with the stakeholders, first n ations and the general public — as well as our other ministries, in energy and Mines, and n atural r esources — will certainly use that area-based approach to develop regulation that is appropriate for the area in question. V . Huntington: i don't know whether the minister might be aware of the intensity of the use. a s of a pril

british c olumbia Debates7234 t hursday, May 19, 2011 last year the oil and Gas c ommission had permitted the withdrawal of 62 million gallons a day from source points throughout the northeast. i don't know, and what i'm trying to find out from the minister is: who is mon - itoring the quantity and the permitting process and the policy related to that incredible withdrawal? Those are withdrawals as of a year ago. i don't know what they are as of today. There doesn't seem to be any policy being developed by the ministry that is control - ling this.

Y ou cannot leave the permitting to the o il and Gas c ommission without a very specific set of policies and regulations attached to that watershed and that groundwater. Hon. T. Lake: Well, the member just heard me say that we are doing an extensive policy development, so when the member says that we are not developing policy, i beg to differ. We are developing policy as we speak. it's a very extensive process. i've been briefed by staff. i've met with staff, met with stakeholders on this issue, including first n ations, who obviously have a huge in - terest in terms of water use in all areas of the province.

We're committed to working with first n ations, with local government, with all ministries and all indus - try stakeholders to ensure that the resources of british c olumbia are well managed. Water is obviously something that we depend upon in every area of the province. We understand there are dif- ferent stresses in terms of the water resource in different areas of the province. [1050] The northeast part of the province.

We understand and know and do talk with our colleagues in the oil and Gas c ommission and other departments of government to understand the challenges that are put forward by the use of water by the industry in that area. industry provides millions and millions of dollars in terms of economic development for the people of that area — about a billion dollars a year to support health and education and other government services. but as i said yesterday, we need to balance the desire for economic development with the need for sustain - ability. i commit to the member and to the people of british c olumbia that this ministry, through the Water a ct modernization process, will do just that.

V . Huntington: i'm about to end my questions and comments. h owever, the Water a ct modernization poli- cies are still going to take a number of years to complete. Meanwhile, i still don't have an answer for what priority this ministry has placed on watershed management for the northeast sector and whether they will take over the policy development for that sector.

Y our ministry is the only one in c anada that doesn't monitor withdrawals for the purpose of fracturing. it should be with the ministry, at least attached to a significant policy developed by your ministry in - dependent of the industry, both for contaminated water and treatment of the contaminated water and withdrawal for water. i do not understand why the minister cannot give us an indication of the priority they are attaching to the de- velopment of policy in this area. Hon. T. Lake: The Ministry of environment has au - thority, under

section 10(2) of the oil and Gas a ctivities a ct, to audit the environmental performance of the oil and Gas c ommission. So that authority does lie with this ministry, and we take that very seriously. a gain, we understand the challenges posed by water use throughout the province. We are working very dili - gently on the modernization of the Water a ct, a piece of legislation that is over a hundred years old.

That could have been addressed by previous governments. it could have been addressed earlier by this government. i'll admit to the member that this is something that we need to do. but i don't want to do that without mak - ing sure that we have the best input possible and that we come up with a piece of legislation that's going to last for a considerable time in the future. Given the amount of work and effort it takes to pass comprehensive legisla - tion like this, i think that we need to do it in a thoughtful manner. We will take the time to do that.

We do want to do it in a timely fashion as well — know- ing how british c olumbians feel about the importance of water, knowing that it is key to sustainability throughout the province, not just for industry but for communities, for first n ations and for all british c olumbians. B. Simpson: i appreciate the line of questioning from the member for Delta South and want to pursue it a little bit further and stay on the topic of fracking — hydraulic fracturing — for a little bit.

The minister's last answer…. i wonder if the minister could, then, answer this simple question: when was the last time that the Ministry of environment actually aud- ited the oil and Gas c ommission's permitting of water for the use of hydraulic fracturing or other oil and gas activity? [1055] Hon. T. Lake: i welcome the member to the debate.

We do work closely with the oil and Gas c ommission. l ast year they produced their water use report, which we had reviewed. in terms of the oil and gas industry, any project that extracts water to the extent of 75 litres per second is currently reviewable under the environ - mental assessment review process. When that is done, the water use is part of that review, and it's reviewed in a cumulative way. in

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0519am-06
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0519am 06
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b357269c5862a941893db360151d499af787c2fb

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