MG-8048 Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL XLII No. 33- 1: 30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, MARCH 24, 19 93 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY,Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Klldonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lake side Charteswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. BonHace Mimedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossm ere Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emer9011 Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. VItal Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rupertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

12 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednes day, March 24, 19 93 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Sheila Inman, Sharon Anderson, Gwen Duguid and others, requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gillesha mmer) consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. Mr. George Hl ck es (Poi nt Dou glas ) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Olga Mcivor, Lawrence Campbell, Brian Beauchamp and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr.

Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. *** Mr.Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, ! beg to present the petition of V. Gregg, L. Friesen, F. Kozak and others requesting the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) to consider holding public hearings on wide-open Sunday shopping throughout Manitoba before March 31 , 19 93, and requesting the Attorney General (Mr. McCrae) uphold the current law concerning Sunday shopping until public hearings are held and the Legislature approves changes to the law. *** Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Frederick Harper, Cory Henderson, Elaine Marko and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Storie), and it complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and it complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 19 93 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People: a new partnership"; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and WHE REAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as: assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, edu cation, recreation and cult ural programming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy; WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba.

Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Clif Evans), and it complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and it complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the United Nations has declared 19 93 the International Year of the World's Indigenous People with the theme, "Indigenous People: a new partnership"; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has totally discontinued funding to all friendship centres; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has stated that these cuts mirror the federal cuts; and WHE REAS the elimination of all funding to friendship centres will result in the loss of many jobs as well as the services and programs provided, such as: assistance to the elderly, the homeless, youth

12 96 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 24, 1 993 programming, the socially disadvantaged, families in crisis, education, recreatio n and cultural progra mming, housing relocation, fine options, counselling, court assistance, advocacy; WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Family Services minister to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. TABUNG OF REPORTS Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minist er responsible for The Civil Service Superannua tion Act ): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the 199 2 Annual Report of the Manitoba Civil Service Superannuation Board. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Ralph Brown School, thirty Grade 5 students under the direction of Cora Duffy. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis). Also this afternoon, we have, from the Inkster Seniors Luncheon Club, 50 seniors under the direction of Mary Deibert.

This institution is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. • (1 335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba Foster Family AssoclaUon Government Relationship Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we have been asking the First Minister for the last week and a half questions about the decisions that have been made by his government, dealing with volunteer groups and organizations and Manitobans dealing with some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Mr.

Speaker, to day on the steps of the Legislature, the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) made some very interesting points about the number of kids who used to be in institutional care. Over a thousand kids were in high-cost institutional care 1 0 years ago. Under changes that were made to foster parents and the kind of supports put in for foster parents and children, that number has been reduced to under 200 in terms of acute institutional care,

whereas the foster kids have increased by up to about 2,500. Those numbers are consistent with our material in the same area, that having a good foster parents system, with strong supports, is good in terms of the emotional care for those children and is very, very sound economically for the province, which is the ultimate guardian for those children. Yesterday, the Premier stated that foster parents can be replaced, Mr. Speaker. Now this, we believe, is not the tone to arrive at an agreement with the very vital- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): I know that the member opposite would not want to leave on the record something that is patently untrue. Mr. Speaker, he has stated something that has never been stated by me throughout any of my discussions with respect to the foster parent issue. I ask him to read Hansard, in which I say: • ... there are many, many Manitobans who love and care for children and who will continue to provide that service for the funding that is available." At no time in my remarks did I say that they could be replaced, and I would ask him not to continue with that falsehood. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Rrst Minister does not have a point of order. It was a dispute over the facts. ••• Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I would refer the Premier to many, many media statements yesterday and today, and let me- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: I would ask the Premier why, in his comments about what he said in Hansard, he did not read out: "I regret the attitude that has been taken by the foster parents' association, but we will indeed find foster care .. .. " He only read the rest of his sentence, Mr. Speaker.

The bottom line-and I accept the Premier's words, but what he has said to the foster parents of Manito ba, he has set a tone of

March 24, 1 993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 12 97 confrontation, of no respect for the foster parents' association and no respect for foster parents. I would ask the Premier �o meet in partnership with the foster parents' association and get a long-term agreemen t with the foster parents' association rather than having this confrontation and rhetoric between the Premier and the foster parents of Manitoba. Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, one of the first issues that we as government were confronted with in 19 88 was the woefully low and inadequate rates that were paid to foster parents in the province of Manitoba, rates that we inher ited from the government opposite, the Ne w Demo cr atic gove rnmen t throughout the '80s, that had done absolutely nothing and in fact had foster parent rates at amongst the lowest in the country.

We, in consultation with them over the space of the last five years, have increased not only the rates to foster parents but indeed the special payments that allowed for childre n who had been previously institutionalized to be cared for bec ause of substantial increase in the special needs rates that were built into those. Even the basic rates were increased so dramatically that today they are, even with the reduction that is being protested, third highest in the country, because we care about the work of foster parents.

We care about the contribution they make, and we care about the needs that are there for the children. I repeat, this is the province of Manitoba, where the cost of living is the eighth in the country, and they are being paid, even after these reductions, the third highest rates for foster care in the country, Mr. Speaker. We believe that given the financial circumstances that we are faced with, we are doing what we can do to ensure that the needs are being met and that the rates are reasonable. Foster Families Rate Negotiations Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the Premier did not answer the question. I asked the Premier whether he would lower his rhetoric, lower his confrontation, lower his unilateral action and meet in partnership with the foster parents' association of Manitoba, and try to arrive at a long-term consensus to maintain the supports for foster children, and to maintain a foster parent program that is working to keep kids out of high-cost institutions and keep kids, on the short run, out of hotels. Will the Premier agree to meet and negotiate with the foster parents' association, negotiate with those people in a partnership way, Mr.

Speaker, rather than the unilateral, confrontational approach that this government is taking with those very vital services for Manitobans? * (1 340) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, it is not I who is engaging in rhetoric or confrontation. It is not I who is threatening that foster parents will withdraw services. It is not I who is talking about hotels and other accommodation. It is the Leader of the Opposition who is fomenting that discontent and who is using that exaggerated rhetoric and indeed that confrontational approach. I have never had that approach.

It is I and my government who met before to settle the problems that were left for us by the New Democrats and who entered into an agreement to raise the rates to levels that are now more than comparable, in fact, well above those rates that are paid by most other provinces in Canada. It is under those circumstances that we believe that those rates are sufficient to meet the needs and to meet the need for continuing foster care in this province. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier is: Why will he not meet and have a partnership? Is "partnership" rhetoric? Partnership is vital for foster parents.

We are just asking the Premier to sit down with the foster parents' association and the foster parents of this province to try to have a partnership for our children, because it is absolutely essential that we not have confrontation between the Premier and the foster parents' association, as we see right now in this pro vince. [int erjection] Well, the government's own officials are now talking about the need for receiving homes, hotels and other short-term crisis measures rather than having the long-term emotional care which is much more cost-effective for all of us than what we have in place now.

So I would ask the Premier again: Yes or no, will he sit down with the foster parents' association of Manitoba, sit down directly with them? He says they solved the problems in partnership before. That is the best way to go, Mr. Speaker. Will he sit down in partnership with the foster parents'

12 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 24, 1 993 association, or is he going to continue to ignore the association and have confrontation with the parents and children of this province? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I am not ignoring the association. We have a minister responsible for Family Services who is responsible for the liaison and the dialogue with this organization, as he is with any other organiz ation that comes under the responsibility of his ministry. That is the term of minister responsible. He is responsible for those areas.

In addition to that, of course, I will say that if the purpose of the meeting is simply to increase rates at a time when we do not have the resources to do that, Mr. Speaker, that will not- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr.FIImon : Mr. Speaker, as I have said before, we are paying rates that are the third highest in Canada. We are paying rates that exceed those of most other provinces. We have not only increased basic rates, but we have provided substantially inc reased resources for the special requirements of children with special needs.

Under those circumstances, we believe that the government has not only been fair and reasonable, but has acted in a better fashion than most other governments in this country. * (1 345) Department of Family Services Reduced Workweek Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, we have the budget of the Department of Family Services. We see that there is an increase in salaries while at the same time there is a decrease in maintenance of children and external agencies of over $3 million. I believe this budget is not well thought out. The staff are already overworked.

They have very high caseloads, and studies show that they are 200 percent understaffed. Child and Family Services staff, because of a decision and a bill coming in by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), may be forced to take 10 days off like other civil servants. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if he has thought through and if he has a rational plan for deciding how to deliver services to children and families with fewer staff working fewer hours with high caseloads that they are having difficulty meeting now. What is your plan? How are you going to do it? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minis ter of Family Services ) : Mr. Speaker, last week I met with the board chairs and the executive directors of the Winnipeg Child and Family Services agencies,. the central Manitoba agency and the Westman agency to discuss the budget initiatives that we have tabled in the House here and that we are anxious to get into Estimates for further discussion over. The executive directors and presidents have indicated that they will work with us to plan their work schedules, and even though we are all facing difficult times, the feeling was, it was a manageable issue. Budget Decisions Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell the House how and where he plans to save $3 million on the maintenance of children when there have been changes to child care fees, to nursery school fees, the elimination of funding to the foster parent association, the Indian and Metis friendship centres and MAPO, all of which are providing preventative services, resources in the community, all of which are provided more cheaply, all of which keep children out of care? How does this minister plan to save money when the alternative is better than taking children into care? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minist er of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, we have indicated, in commen ts following the announcement that the Rnance mini ster made two weeks ago on some of the budget decisions, that we will work with the communities to maintain the vital services that thesfl organizations perform-and that your Leader has indicated the difficult decisions and difficult choices that all governments have to make. We have made those choices where they will not impact directly on the services provided for children. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Speaker, I am afraid that all of these decisions are going to negatively impact on the lives of children. How does this minister plan to meet the needs of children and cut the budget when the decisions of this government will increase the cost, as children will be staying in care longer because, for example, the courts may be closed on Friday, so children will be staying in care over the weekend? Fewer parents will be-

March 24, 1 993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 12 99 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mr. Gllleshammer: I am pleased that the member wants to get into the Budget Debate, and that is precisely why we presented that information here in the House last week.

I indicated in my first answer that in meeting with the chairpeople of the Child and Fam ily Services agencies and the executive directors, they felt that they could work with us to resolve some of the issues around salary for the staff who work there and some of our other budget decisions and continue to have a ver y good workable system here in Manitoba. Foster Families Rate Negotiations Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

I am going to quote from the Premier's own words of August 24, 1988: "We are providing an increase that will give foster parents of Manitoba the second-highest rates for the care of foster children in country. We are giving them the largest increase that has been given to them since the early Eighties. We are doing that because we believe it is important to establish a good relationship. We know that we cannot take care of neglect and the perhaps inadequate support that they got over the past six-and-a-half years, but we are doing our best.

To show our good faith, we have indicated that we are prepared to continue to negotiate with them about greater increases for the next Budget year. But for this Budget year, to show our good faith and to show our support for them and our appreciation for what they do, we have put forth an increase of 12.5 percent, which brings them to a level of being the second highest in the country.

We think that is a good step in the right direction." My question to the Premier is: If he thought it was a good step in the right direction in 1988 because it was cost-effective as well as it was quality care, why has he changed his mind? *

(1350) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : I have not changed my mind. The fact is that we have raised the rates to the level now where they do meet those needs that were not met before under the New Democrats. Now, Mr. Speaker, we are in a situation where, for a province whose cost of living is eighth highest in the country, we are providing support that has them at the third highest in the country. That is a reasonable balance; that is a reasonable approach.

In addition to all of the increases that have been made over the past five years, budget after budget, to foster care rates, we have also increased special needs rates as well, and that provides for the kind of support that we believe appropriate today and is a vastly different situation than that which I was speaking about in 1988 on August 24. Manitoba Foster Family Association Funding Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): He was taking pride in the fact that he thought his government was in the upper levels, in the second place he talked about.

He is now quite deliberately making them third place, and he says that is good enough. Interestingly enough, if you listen to the foster parents out there today, their major concern was not about per diems. Their major concern was about their association which provides them with support. Now if the Premier is in a tight financial squeeze, why has he chosen to take away from these foster families the only support they have, which is the Manitoba Foster Family Association? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Now, Mr. Speaker, we have a different approach being taken by the Leader of the Liberal Party.

She is now talking that the priority is not care of the children, it is care of the association. Point of Order Mrs. Carstalrs: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Premier knows full well that that was not the question I asked him. The question I asked him very clearly was why has he taken away the support of these parents. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the second opposition party does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, we are and continue to be concerned to ensure that the rates that are paid are sufficient to meet the needs of caring for the children. That is our first priority. That is what I have been speaking about in my answers to previous questions.

1300 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 24, 1993 I note that in today's Winnipeg Free Press, or perhaps it was yesterday's--no it was today's, Mr. Speaker-it lists the various functions of the foster parents' association. It lists fivEt of them. The first one is advocacy for foster parents coping with false abuse. The second is advocacy for foster parents in conflict with child welfare. The third is lobby group to negotiate with province on reasonable rates. The fourth is lobby group that negotiated the first damage compensation, and fifth is training and education for foster parents.

It has already been said here in this House, by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), that the funding for training and education for foster parents-special funding has been earmarked for the Child and Family Services agencies, Mr. Speaker, to ensure that that function is taken care of. We are not talking about the care and the nurturing of the children. We are talking about advocacy and lobby as a priority over care of the children, in the mind of the Leader of the Liberal Party. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, Child and Family Services, according to the Detailed Estimates on Child and Family Support, has been reduced from $96 million to $92 million. That is $4 million less, not more money, less money-more tasks, more functions, less money. Mr. Speaker, it is very clear to the foster families that they need support. They need to have an organization to which they can turn to support their needs as foster families.

Why is this First Mini ster, along with his government, taking away that one support they have that provides them with counselling, training, accepts 700 to 1, 000 calls per month from foster families seeking assurance and seeking support? Why is he taking that away from them? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, we have said before that those supports for counselling and training are going to be available through the Child and Family Services agencies in Manitoba. * (1 355) Manitoba Foster Family AssoclaUon Funding Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, last week I did something the Premier has refused to do.

I spoke to foster parents in northern Manitoba. Today I went outside of this Legislature, as did many MLAs, and I talked to some of the foster parents, people, some of whom were foster kids themselves, who are extremely concerned about what this government is doing, former foster kids who are now foster parents. It is hard to express to the Premier the sense of betrayal, Mr. Speaker, the anger of people who found out from the media last week that not only were rates being cut to foster kids, but the association which they have worked so hard to support has had its funding eliminated.

I would like to just ask one question to the Premi er, and that is : When will he end the emotional blackmail that is clearly the tactic of this government, Mr. Speaker, stop the cuts to the Manitoba Foster Family Association and sit down and work in partnership with foster families in Manitoba? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I know that it is all well and good from their position of irresponsibility for members of the New Democratic party who, when they were in government, starved foster families in this province and now, in their hypocritical fashion, try and take on the mantle of being the champion of the foster families. Mr. Speaker, that kind of lack of credibility is why the opposition party is where it is, because they have no integrity, they have no accountability and they have no credibility to be able to make that kind of statement.

It is this government that increased the rates of foster parents to the point that they are now third highest in the country. It is this government that remains committed to paying rates that are fair and reasonable to the foster families of this province. Mr. Ashton: This talk about integrity, Mr. Speaker, from a government that silences groups that have the nerve to lobby and advocate and express the views of the people they represent, he has no business lecturing us on integrity. Foster Families Rate ReducUon Mr. Steve Ashton (Thom�son): I want to ask a very specific question on rates.

I want to ask the Premier. He is asking foster parents to take two bucks per diem away from children. I have a list here of the specific breakdown of where the funding goes. It does not go to foster parents; it goes to foster kids.

March 24, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1301 I would like to ask where the Premier is saying that $2 should be taken from. Should it be from food, should it be from health and personal care, should it be replacement clothing? Where do the foster parents take that $2 a day away from the foster kids, that this government is dictating they do? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the funding that is provided in other provinces is far less than is provided for foster parents in Manitoba.

I would submit to the honourable member that this money does flow to the foster parent for the use in raising that child and working with that child. We feel that the sum of money that is flowed tax free to the foster parent is sufficient. It is still $3 a day more than in the province of Saskatchewan, and we feel there are sufficient funds there to look after those children. Of course, where there are special rate funds for handicapped children or children with special problems, that fee has not been touched with this budget announcement. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, the minister does not understand.

He talks about this being tax free. It is not an income to foster parents. I ask the same question again, because the foster parents want an answer. Where do they take the $2-a-day cut from? What do they cut out that they are currently providing to the foster kids. What do they cut? Food, health care, what do they cut? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, those funds flow as a lump sum to the foster parent, and the foster parent will have the discretion to make whatever adjustments are required to provide for that child within that global funding that is provided. *

(1400) Child Care Services Funding Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): You will be interested to know, Mr. Speaker, that the Canadian Council on Social Development noted in a recent report that perhaps the greatest impediment to employment outside the home is the lack of affordable, accessible and flexible child care options for low income and moderate income individuals, and that the lack of child care is the No. 1 barrier to self-reliance for sole-support parents receiving social assistance. So what does this government do, Mr. Speaker?

It brings in cutbacks to child care that in fact act as barriers to obtaining and maintaining employment and barriers to being self-reliant as opposed to being on social assistance. I want to ask this government: Why would it introduce child care cutbacks and a policy that will actually result in inc reased unemployment, increased numbers on social assistance and increased poverty? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, last fall I had the privilege and pleasure of being at a national daycare conference in Brandon, where a report was presented by the Canadian Day Care Advocacy Association on statistics that they had gathered from all jurisdictions in this country. I think we can be proud in Manitoba of having the second highest hourly wages for people who work in daycares. We have the lowest turnover rate, and the convention recognizes that Manitoba has legislation and in place daycare homes and institutions within the province that provide the highest quality care in all of the country. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: We do not expect the government to understand the human impact of its cutbacks, but we would hope it would have some economic rationale for its decisions.

I want to ask the minister then, because we would assume that there was some kind of study done before embarking upon these kind of cutbacks: Will the minister table for the benefit of this House and all Manitobans the impact study done of its cutbacks to daycare showing how many centres might be forced to close, how many students would have to give up education and training programs, how many low income earners would be added to welfare rolls and how many more children will be forced into poverty? Mr.GIIIeshammer: Mr.

Speaker, the impact is that the funding that is reduced in the grant level is replaced in the increased subsidies, and we have asked parents who have subsidized children in care to pay $1.40 a day for that care. Government provides, in some cases, $7,000 or $8,000 for an individual child. Sometimes it is $1 2,000 to $15,000 per family to look after those children who are in care. We have 1 0,000 subsidized spaces where the government pays substantial amounts. In this province alone, the amount dedicated to daycare has gone from around $26 million in 1988 to over

1302 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 24, 1993 $50 millio n this current budget year. Our commitment has been substantial. We have put millions and millions of dollars into daycare, and we still maintain the highest standards of any daycare operation in this country. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: I am wondering if the minister is aware that the percentage of families in Manitoba who would be poor without the earnings of both earners in the family is 22 .6 percent.

I want to ask him: Is this government intent on cutting daycare to the point where one spouse of every two-earner low income family may be forced out of the paid labour force, which would result in doubling the poverty rate and the number of poor families in Manitoba? Mr.GIII eshammer: Mr. Speaker, that 100 percent increase in funding that daycare has seen over the last five years has created additional spaces in daycare homes and in daycare centres. It has allowed more and more people to access subsidies in this province. We have over 10,000 children now who are in subsidized spaces in daycare.

I would point out to you that our $50 million is a tremendous commitment on the part of this government towards daycare, three times what the Province of Saskatchewan spends on daycare. Manitoba Foster Family AssoclaUon Parental Support Mr. Reg Alcock {Osborne) : When you voluntarily take into your home-Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier to listen to this-an abused child, you place yourself and your entire family at risk. The number of people willing to foster has nearly do ubled since the Manitoba Fo ster Family Association came into existence.

Part of the problem is, and this is what I think the government is missing, when they talk about advocacy, they are talking about helping parents when their children are accused of sexually abusing the foster child, which does occur from these very vulnerable kids. The agency cannot protect them because the agency is in as the investigator, as the prosecutor of the abuser. So who protects the family, and who protects the parents' kids? That is the question here. You have taken away that protection. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier that question: Who protects the parents? Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Gary Almon {Premier): As someone who has been a foster parent himself, I can tell the member for Osborne, I do not need to be lectured to about what foster parents do for children. In his very political and sanctimonious way, Mr. Speaker, I think he is denigrating the debate on this issue. There continue to be avenues for- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Almon: Mr. Speaker,! will let the member ask his next question. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, the Premier is not the only person who has fostered in this provfnce.

The people who do foster In this provfnce are saying: It is not about rates; you can negotiate with us. It is about support; it is about protection; it is about training. We are prepared to put ourselves at risk, but we need support. I ask the Premier: Who provfdes that support now that he has cut the association? Mr. Almon: As I have Indicated before, funds have been specifically earmarked with Child and Family Services agencies to be able to provi de­ pnte�ection] Mr. Speaker, if the member wants me to answer the question, let him listen instead of interrupting like a bully. [interjection] He finds it funny.

Maybe because he is now the big federal candidate for the Liberal Party, he thinks he can get away with anything. The fact of the matter is- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (OpposHion House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I do not think It is particularly relevant to refer to any member in terms of any other aspirations they may have, but it is particularly not appropriate for the Premier to talk about a member being a bully. Let us deal with straightforward questions and answers in Question Period and cut that kind of- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member does not have a point of order. *** Mr. Almon: Mr. Speaker, as I have said before, there is money provided and specifically earmarked to Child and Family Services agencies for the training functions and the counselling functions with respect to questions. There will continue to be funding provided for liability insurance, for Legal Aid

March 24, 1993 LEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1303 assistance programs, for damage compensation plans. There will continue to be support provided for the various functions to foster families, and there is in fact a Child Advocate within the Province of Manitoba for issues that have been raised by the member in his question. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, the Premier missed the point in '88, and he missed it again now. The list he read off, the thing he took exception to in his first question was advocacy. Advocacy, in this instance, means protection. It is not training support.

Who provides that when the agencies are in conflict with the interests of the foster parents? *(1 41 0) Mr. Fllmon: I gave him the answer to that question in the last one. [interjection) Yes, I did. Flln Flon/Crelghton Crisis Centre Meeting Request Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, it is not only foster parents or friendship centres or daycares that are under attack. The Minister of Family Services announced some two weeks ago now that the crisis centre, the only crisis centre in the province that has had its funding completely withdrawn, will be closing.

My question is to the Minister of Family Services. Will the minister attend with me a public meeting dealing with the crisis that the community of Rin Flon, the women of Flin Flon, abused and potentially abused families in Flin Ron are going to have when this crisis centre closes at the end of this month? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I indicated in questions on this topic last week that we are looking at a delivery system on a regional basis for Family Dispute Services.

We have been in touch with, not only staff from within our department of Family Dispute, but also the shelter directors association. We feel that while there will be reduced access in the immediate Flin Flon area-and we have also alerted the Province of Saskatchewan, who were the primary users of that shelter-there are services available. I also indicated to the member that the RCMP have enhanced services there to make the connection with the shelter at The Pas for anyone in need of those services. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, the minister has been told in no uncertain terms that that is nonsense. Mr.

Speaker, my question: Will the minister now come and explain to the families who may be in crisis, to the women whose lives may be in jeopardy the rationale for the closing of the Flin Ron/Creighton Crisis Centre? Will he explain to the women in that community how they are going to access services some two hours away? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, one of the member's colleagues invited me to go to The Pas today on another issue, and because of cabinet and because of meetings here with the Foster Family Association at noon, I was not able to do that. If I am not able to go, we will have staff attend that.

Flln Flon/Crelghton Crisis Centre Meeting Request Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, my final question is to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women. This government has announced a zero tolerance policy when it comes to abuse. This government talks a great deal about the need for protecting families who are victims of violence. Will the Minister responsible for the Status of Women attend the meeting in Rin Ron to explain to the families and the women who may fear for their lives and the safety of their children how this closure is going to protect women in that community? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Mr. Speaker, this government has great concern about the safety of women and indeed children throughoutthe province of Manitoba. As the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) has indicated, we have had to make some very difficult decisions. The shelter in Flin Flon/Creighton, in fact, that served the majority of women from the province of Saskatchewan, Mr. Speaker, will be serviced by enhanced services in The Pas, enhanced services by the RCMP.

We have every confidence that we will attempt in every way to ensure that the women in the Flin Flon and immediate area are served through a regional pr ocess that has been put in place by the Department of Family Services and the minister. Point of Order Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, does the minister know where Flin Ron is? Can the minister explain-

1304 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 24, 1993 Mr. Speak er: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. *** Mrs. Mitchel son: Mr. Speaker, I believe I probably visited Rin Ron more recently than the member who represents the area. Street Kids and Youth Program Alternative Programs Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radiss on): Mr. Speaker, this government does not seem to understand that the Jess support you have for foster families the more at-risk youth you are going to have, the more at-risk youth on the streets.

I have been asking questions of this government related to the serious costs and problems of young people who are out of work, out of school and living off the streets. Today, I have the annual report from the YMCA, which sponsors the Street Kids and Youth project, Mr. Speaker, which shows that in 1991 there were 1,120 young people and in 1992 there were 6,600 young people who used the service of this agency, which this government is going to allow to close. My question, Mr.

Spe aker., is: How is this government goin g to me et the needs of the ever-increasing dem and of the ever-increasing number of young people on the streets in Winnipeg? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, by continuing to fund the many, many organizations which provide services to street children, whether it is the Family Services agencies, whether it is places like the Children's Home of Winnipeg, Rossbrook House and others. We are not in a position to take on additional responsibilities that other funders have started and now see fit to reduce that funding.

We will continue to fund many of the organizations that we have funded in the past to provide those services. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, this government has the legal responsibility- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Radisson has time for one very short question. Ms. Cerllll: Is this government telling the House that its bottom-line budgeting process is more important than its legal responsibility to provide food, shelter and clothing for minors in the province of Manitoba? That is what it is telling us. Mr.Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

Clayton Manness (Go vernment House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you call the motion going into Supply as part of the Interim Supply process. DEBATE ON PROPOSED MOTIONS Mr. Speaker: On the motion of the honourable Minister of Rnance (Mr. Manness), that this House, at this sitting, will resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, standing in the name of the honourable Leader of the second opposition party. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to speak yet once again on the Supply motion, to indicate that our concerns remain exactly the same as they were yesterday and the day before and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that, when I have also been on my feet discussing this particular Supply motion. Our concern is very clear.

I found it quite interesting in Question Period where there was some heehawing coming from the opposite side when I asked my questions, and a question in which I took some information from the Detailed Estimates book of the Department of Family Services. Mr. Speaker, I have made it perfectly clear on a number of occasions that we have had Estimates from three departments and it was one of those departments--{interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Carstalrs : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have made it perfectly clear that it is not because we do not have Estimates of three departments, it is because we do not have the Estimates of the remaining departments. We are not, as a political party, prepared to break with, I would suggest to you, 300 years of tradition and to make decisions based on 18 percent of the information which the government is supposed to provide to us. We do not have Estimates at this point in time from over 70 percent of the Estimates that we are entitled to-to be absolutely exact, 82 percent.

We are being asked to examine the cuts to Family Services, and indeed they are cuts, because while the overall budgetary line of Family Services undergoes a 4.5 percent increase, it is important to

March 24, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1305 see that there is a decrease in funding to Child and Family Services; there is a decrease in funding to Rehabilitation, Community Living and Day Care. There is a decrease in funding to Registration and Licensing Services. The only increase to be found in the Family Services budget is in the line which is for social security, for social assistance, for people having to live on welfare because of the depressed economy that we have in the province of Manitoba.

That depressed economy has led more and more people to turn to social welfare assistance for their food and their shelter and their clothing, the basic necessities of life. * (14 20) But there has to be fairness. We have been told by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) that the budget he presents on the 6th of April will be fair. That is what we want to see. We want to see the statistical information which is going to come down with that presentation of the budget or with the presentation of the Main Estimates. He can do either one.

In that presentation of that Main Estimates book we will know, indeed, if there has been fairness, if the 45 members of the Premier's staff-11 of which get over $50,000 a year-if they have seen cuts, if he has laid off one of them? If he laid off one of them, he could find the funding for the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) If he laid off a few more of them, he could find the funding for the Manitoba Foster Family Association. That is the kind of fairness that we want to make our decisions based upon.

We want to examine clearly whether or not there has been an acceptable level of fairness across the Main Estimates of this government. Even within the three departments that we have, we see tremendous differences in the reduction of the administration and finance lines. We know that in the Department of Agriculture for example, they were able to cut out 10 percent in administration and finance. In Highways, they were able to cut out 6 percent, but in Family Services they were able to cut out less than 5 percent.

At the same time, as they could only find 5 percent in administration, they could find 5 percent to cut out of Child and Family Services budgets. Those are exactly the same budgetary lines that were being addressed by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) today where he says they are going to find all the additional sums of money, presumably, to support the foster families who will no longer have that support from the Manitoba Foster Family Association. Madam Deputy Speaker, it does not make any sense.

If, in fact, the Child and Family Services agencies are going to have to pick up all of these new programs, then presumably they are going to need an increase in their budgetary line, but there is not any- Madam Deput y Spea ker : Order, please. I wo nder if the members who are havin g conversations at the back of the Chamber would either move to the loge or outside the Chamber. I am experiencing great difficulty in listening to the honourable member of the second opposition party. Thank you. Mrs. Carstalrs : Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

So we have an inability as opposition members to make rational and logical decisions as to whether this government, indeed, has been fair or not. The tradition of this House is one which is of long standing. When I was tracing for the government members over the last few days, as well as the opposition members, the historical significance of Supply, I indicated that the first budget in real terms became a part of the British Constitution in 16 89 with the Bill of Rights.

At that particular point in time, it was declared very simply that an appropriation line, in this case for the military operations of the Crown, had to be granted for one year and one year only and that granting of that budgetary year for one year only or that budgetary line for one year only, became the basis of the process that is before us now, that once a year the government of the day presents to us two documentations. One is called the budget which shows where they are going to get their revenue from and where they are going to make their expenditures.

The second document is the Main Estim ates which detail department by department how each government is going to spend that money that has been granted through the budgetary process. We indicated that we recognize that in past traditions in this House there has been a process whereby the Main Estimates were tabled in the

1306 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 24, 1993 House at a time different than the budget, but that was only done up until1983. After 1983, it was very clear that the budget and the Main Estimates would be presented at the same time. But that is only a 1 0-year tradition, and we were prepared ­ [interjection] Madam Deputy Speaker, it appears that the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) has something she would like to say. Perhaps, she would like to say it on the record. Madam De puty Sp eaker: The honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, on a point of order? Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister c>f Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Deputy Speaker, I am just responding to the member':s invitation. I am assuming she meant it. Mrs. Carstalrs: No, no. The invitation was to say what you are mumbling at your place loud enough so it could go on the record. Mrs. Mcintosh: Well, that is what I am saying. I am not rising on a point of order. I am responding to the member's invitation to be given the floor. She is offering to give me the floor- Madam De puty Sp eaker: Order, please.

Regrettably, the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs may rise, or any member may rise, during debate only on a point of order. Point of Order Mrs. Mcinto sh: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, the member has put on the record that she is willing to let me have the floor. I am wondering if you could rule whether that is a legitimate offer that is meaning she is willing to give up her time to speak and let the floor come back over here. Madam Dep uty Sp eaker: The honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs does not have a point of order.

It is a dispute over the facts. • • • Mrs. Carstalrs : Madam Deputy Speaker, we have a process that has been violated, a process which has, to this year in time, been followed and a process which is significant for all of us in terms of our parliamentary and legislative responsibilities. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have a situation in this province where the government of the day is facing financial problems, financial problems, to some degree, of their own making, in that they have come in year after year after year with very large deficits, but a circumstance which, to some degree, is not of their making.

No one in my party at least, and I do not believe in the New Democratic Party, has ever blamed the government for the recession which not only impacts on Manitoba but impacts on all Canadians and, to some degree, all of us in the western world. That recession is very real. There is an unemployment rate whic h is extraordinarily high in Canada, 11 percent-9 percent in this province, which means that many, many Manitobans are unable to find employment. They have, as a result, lost their ability to pay taxes. They have lost, in some cases, their ability to provide for their families. That has meant two things.

We have seen an escalating rate of the numbers of people who have turned to social assistance. That has caused the government to, this year, have to increase its Income Security and Regional Operations line from some $379 million to some $414 million. We have over 50,000 people in the province of Manitoba on social assistance because of the economic climate in this province. •

(1430) At the same time, those who are still able to hang on are either collecting unemployment insurance or are living on their own revenues. Those individuals have lost their ability to pay income taxes. They have also lost their ability to purchase goods. So we have seen declines in real terms or at least declines in growth in some cases in lines of the budget like corporate taxes, individual income taxes, sales taxes, because if you do not have any disposable income you cannot pay sales taxes because you cannot afford to purchase goods. If you do not have any earned income you do not pay any income taxes .

The result of that has been to move the burden of those people in such a way that they cannot provide the revenues for this government to spend. So we recognize that the government is in a crunch. The government has to make tough decisions. We find it very difficult that some of the decisions that they are making do not impact on their budget lines whatsoever. The decisions they have made to threaten the autonomy of school divisions do not

Ma rch 24, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1307 impact on the provincial budget. It produces zero dollars for the provincial budget. It is a decision that in other provinces has been left up to the individual universities. One would think that if one truly believed in autonomy, one would leave that decision up to the universities. The universities of this province have chosen to move along in that particular endeavour.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I have been informed that there is a will on the part of the government to call Interim Supply and to continue to call Interim Supply until such time as it is passed, at which point there will be a further motion to go into Estimates. When that further motion is introduced, let me assure the House that I will again participate in this debate, and I will participate in this debate until the Main Estimates have been passed.

However, Madam Deputy Speaker, in that we can now proceed with Interim Supply and call Interim Supply, I am prepared to step down on this particular motion and allow the Interim Supply motion to be introduced. Hon. Jim Ernst (Acti ng Government House Leader): I believe the question before the House is a motion to resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Government House Leader) : Madam Deputy Speaker, I mo ve , seconded by the Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Ducharme), that Madam Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a commi ttee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Madam Deputy Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Finance, seconded by the honourable Minister of Government Services, that Madam Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Agreed? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Deputy Speaker: Agreed and so ordered.

I beg the indulgence of the members of the House that the question before the House-due to the fact that the honourable member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) has indicated she has finished her debate and the question has not been called, so for the record I need to revert back and call that question now: that the House at this sitting will resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Agreed? [agreed] Now we read the motion by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), seconded by the honourable Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Ducharme), that Madam Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair. SUPPLY-INTERIM SUPPLY COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Order, please. The Committee of Supply will please come to order. We have before us for our consideration a resolution respecting the Interim Supply bill.

The resolution reads as follows: RE SOL VED tha t a sum not exceeding $1 ,770, 437,375 being 35 percent of the total amount as set out in The Appropriation Act, 19 92; Loi de 19 92 portant affectation de credits, be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 94. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I am pleased to finally be able to ask some questions which normally, I suppose, we would have been asking in Estimates, but we have a chance before Estimates. We appreciate this opportunity. I am pleased to see that the Mi nister of Fam ily Ser vices (Mr. Gilleshammer) is here.

Point of Order Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Government House Leader): On a point of order, we are in Committee of Supply debating a resolution. We are still in debate. If the member wants to pose questions to our ministers we will have to move down a few steps to where we are in Committee of the Whole, at which time certainly the member will have full opportunity to present the questions that he wishes. Madam Chairperson, the way I understand it right now, we are considering a resolution and we are involved in debate. • (1 440)

1308 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 24, 1993 Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Madam Chairperson, just on a point of clarification, the minister is correct in pointing out that we are not debating Estimates or expenditure, but we are debating. At this point, we are in committee to discuss the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. I think it is reasonable to ask questions of the minister on why he wishes the amount he wishes. Are you ruling that we cannot ask questions at this time? An Honourable Member: No, we have to get it one step further. Mr. Alcock: No, we are in the committee now, Harry.

Madam Chairperson: We are in Committee of Supply to consider the resolution respecting the Interim Supply bill which indeed is debatable. Is it the will of the comm ittee to adopt the resolution? [agreed] The resolution is accordingly passed. Committee rise, call in the Speaker. IN SESSION Committee Report Mr. Ben Sv el nson (Acti ng Chairp erson of Committees): Madam Deputy Speaker, I beg to report to the House from Committee of Supply. It has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr.

McAlpine), thatthe report ofthe commi ttee be received. Motion agreed to. Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Go vernment House Leader): Ma dam De put y Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), that Madam Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of Ways and Means for raising of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs.

Dacquay) in the Chair. SUPPL Y�NTERIM SUPPLY COMMmEE OF WAYS AND MEANS Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacq uay) : Will the Committee of Ways and Means please come to order. We have before us for our consideration a resolution respecting the Interim Supply bill.

The resolution reads as follows: RESOLVED that towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenditures for the public service for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 94, the sum of $1,770,437,375, being 35 percent ofthe total amount voted as set out in The Appropriation Act, 19 92; Loi de 199 2 portant affectation de credits, be granted out of the Consolidated Fund. Does the Minister of Rnance (Mr. Manness) have any opening commen ts? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): No, I do not. Madam Chairperson: Shall the resolution be passed? Mr.

Dou g Martindale (B urrow s): Madam Chair person, I should start by askin g for a clarification, if I could ask questions of the minister at this stage? Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Chairperson, I would suggest perhap�nd we are open in terms of where it would be more appropriate and in terms of more convenient also for ministers, that No. 17 , Commi ttee of the Whole stage could be considered. Is that the minister's preference for questions? We are open in terms of which- Point of Order Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Second Op position House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Chair person, I under stand that we can ask questions on this, can we not? So we are quite prepared to ask questions at this particular line. I know the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) was wanting to go ahead with the Department of Family Services because the minister is there, so if this is the line, he is quite- An Honourable Member: He does not seem to want to do it. Mr. Lamoureux: We will ask the qu estions . pnte� ection] Yes, this is the time to do it, to the member for Agriculture.

March 24, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1309 * * * Mr. Martindale: Madam Chairperson, since we have had a clarification, and we have been told we can ask questions at this stage, I will avail myself of that opportunity. As you know, Ma dam Chai rperson, from Question Period, we have many serious concerns about the budget allo cation for the Department of Family Services. To begin with, I would like to follow up on some of my concerns from Question Period today.

It is my belief that if this government is providing less money to Child and Family Services and less money to external agencies, as seems to be the case from page 78 from the Estimates of the Departmen t of Family Services-then I would like to have some specific answers to the questions. I know that this minis ter has been anxious to engage in this process for some time. So I would like to know how this mini ster plans to provide services to families and children when there is approximately $3. 5 million less money for the main tenance of children and external agencies.

Does this minister not realize that if, for example, the courts are not sitting on Friday, children who are apprehended on Thursday night may not be into court until Monday, and there is an increased cost in keeping them in care over the weekend? That is just one example, I believe, of how the costs are going to be increased when the amount of money allocated is decreased, the amount of money is less. So that is my first question.

If the mi nister would first of all confirm that I am right, that there is less money being allocated, and if he does not agree with me, that because the courts are closed on Fridays, that this will not increase the cost because children will be taken into care. I have many mo re subsequent questions. Hon. Harold Gllle shammer (Minister of Family Services) : Madam Chairperson, the member, of course, raises a whole host of questions within that question on our budget. Over the last number of years, as he is well aware, the Depar tmen t of Family Ser vices has seen tremendous increases in all of its budget lines.

If you want to talk about the services to vulner able Man itobans, that in fact takes in our en tire Dep artment of Family Ser vices. I sense the memb er wants to talk mostly about Child and Family Services issues-okay. The memb er is correct. There is a reduction in that budget line. However, it seems to me that his question is sprinkled with speculation about what is closed and what is not closed on certain days of the year. * (1 450) The decrease in the funding in the child welfare line is largely funds that will not be flowing to foster parents because of the $2 reduction a day.

If he looks at the detail of that in the Estimates, he will see that covers over $2 million of the difference that he sees within that budget line. Another factor there-and I do not have my budget books in front of me. We can get into more detail when we get into the Estimates, and of course , we regret that we have not had the opportunity to do that over the last couple of weeks. I recognize that my honourable friend from Burrows was anxious to start Estimates and ready to start Estimates.

This is why we presented the spending Estimates of the depar tment, because we did make our announceme nts some time ago and wanted to have the opportunity to discuss them. The $3-million-plus reduction in that budget line is made up, to a great degree, of the $2 reduction to foster parents, also some of the funding that will not be flowing to that organization which we have already talked about. As well, there were some reductions to other agencies and organizations that fall under this particular budget line. So we can get into more detail on that.

I did men tion earlier in my answer that I have met with the CEOs and the chair people of the three main agencies who look after child welfare in this province to talk about the workforce adjustments that we have to make. One of the things they asked is that they be allowed to have the flexibil ity to manage that workforce issue by themselves and that government does not mandate, to any great degree, how they will accom plish that. I am inclined to say to them that we would offer them some flexibil ity so that they can truly manage their agencies and manage their resources.

So those issues that we have talked to them about, about a 4 percent reduction on their Salary line, is something that they feel they can manage within their organizations. Mr. Martindale: Madam Chairperson, the Foster Family Association has said that they would have preferred to negotiate and, in fact, they did have an

1310 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 24, 1993 agr eemen t that th ey were waiting for the government to sign and then all of a sudden the rug was pulled out from under them. The emphasis on the rally today was not on the 10 percent cut in the per diem , although that is certainly a very serious concern, and they are saying to us and, I presume, to the government, where should they take the money from? Should they take it from food? Should they take it from clothing? Where should they take it from? So I would like to put that question to the minister.

Secondly, I have had people phone me with concerns very similar to what the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) raised about the important role that the Foster Family Association plays in being a support to families. For example, a parent said to me that they were accused of abuse and, in talking to the staff at the association, they said that last year there were 65 families or incidents where abuse was alleged. This parent said to me that if it was not for the association, they do not know how they would have survived this ordeal.

I think that is a very important function of the or gani zation and a very legitima te concer n because, if the only relationship that people have is with government, then it is one branch of the government investigating and the parents are being paid from po ssibly another branch of the government, maybe even the same branch of the gove rnmen t,

whereas the association is a nongovernment organization at arm's length. It seems to me that it is more appropriate for a nongovernmental organization or an organization at arm's length from government to provide support to families who are accused of abuse. We are very disappointed that they are going to lose that function.

I would like to ask the minister if he really feels that the Child Advocate and his office can really carry out that function or whether that support is really going to be replaced by Child and Family Services agencies and if the minister thinks that is a suitable alternative and a better alternative than what is in place now. Mr. Gllleshammer: Madam Ch airperson, the member raises the question of the function of the Manitoba Foster Family Association, and I do recognize that there are many functions that the association carried out.

We have indicated publicly that there are a number of those functions which we have dedicated money to for legal services, for insurance and for training, but the member is raising the question of the advocacy work and the personal services that the association provided to its members. I am sure that the honourable member for Burrows is aware that many organizations become self-sustaining because of the important work they do.

In talking to the president of the association earlier today and talking to the executive director, and I have talked to them on many occasions, I am aware that there is a strong bond between some of the foster parents and the association, and I was told that the association will become stronger. I think it will also become more independent of government and can be sustained by the thousands of foster parents who look after children across the province.

I believe that the executive director said publicly on Friday that the association will become stronger and, I think, stronger and more independent of gov ernmen t as they get the support of their membership to carry on that advocacy function. The member asks, what will we do to provide service to chi ldren and families, and in part answered part of the question. Yes, we do believe that the Child Advocate, who will have his office operational in the coming weeks, can provide part of that answer. There are other avenues as well.

The directorate of Chil d and Fam ily Ser vices also becomes involved, if necessary, in specific cases. I think the agencies will respond in a professional way to provide not only the training and the recruitment of foster families, but the agencies will be there on an ongoing basis. The member raises the question of conflict. All of the southern agencies have someone who is responsible for the child and is there to represent the child in terms of that placement, but also has somebody who works with foster parents.

You can make the argument that they both are employed by the same agency, but there are other avenues as well. I would say that the office of the Ombudsman is another place where foster parents may go if there is a di spute and need a dispute settlement mechanism. There are other avenues. I do believe what the president of the association has said and what the executive director has said, that the association will continue with the support of its membership. In

March 24, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1311 many ways, that is how associations, whether it is the Mani toba Teachers' Society or othe r organizations, the MCCA-how they work is through the support of their members, and I do believe that that will take place. [interjection] The member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) is still smarting because he was not recognized to ask questions, and I realize he has a history- An Honourable Member: You are afraid to answer them. You do not know how to answer them. Mr.

Gll leshammer: Well, I mean if the member wants to get into a personal debate, I have tried to avoid recounting the member's checkered history as House leader and Finance critic and executive director of Seven Oaks, and foster parent and all these things. I do not want to get into a personal battle with the member for Osborne. I would prefer to stick to the issues. Thank you. Mr. Martindale: Madam Chairperson, on this one small item the minister and I agree, and that is that we both hope that the Foster Family Association will continue.

I would like to ask the minister: How can the services that the association are currently providing be transferred to Child and Family Services, if indeed many of those services are transferred, when there are reductions in funding, not only reductions to Child and Family Support that we have been talking about, but on page 73 of his Estimates, Resolution 9.5 Child and Family Services, there appears to be a reduction from $1 05 million to $1 00 million? How does the minister plan to have staff take over these functions when there has been a reduction in the budget of $5 million?

Mr.GII Ieshammer: I have indicated to the member that there has been a reduction in the total Child and Family Services line, indicated that a good portion of that is the $2 reduction to the foster families and other reductions to various agencies that we fund. Some of those agencies no longer will be getting full funding from the province, and some will be getting 1 0 percent less.

We will get into that detail when we have the budget books in front of us. * (1 500) I would say to you that we have dedic ated finances and funding within the Department of Family Services to look after those specific things that I have mentioned, the Legal Aid services, the insurance agreement and also the training of foster families. I can assure you that funding has been earmarked within that budget, and when we get to the line-by-line consideration of the Family Services Estimates I would be happy to point that out to him . Mr.

Martindale: Madam Chairperson, in answer to one of my previous questions, the minister said that I was specula ting about how the workweek reductions would be worked out and mentioned that he has talked to the chief executive officer and other staff about workforce adjustments. I would like to ask the minister, does this mean that Bill 22, the government bill on The Public Sector Reduced Work Week and Compensation Management Act, will this apply or will it not apply to the staff of the Child and Family Services agencies? Mr.

Gllle shammer: The principles em bodied within the proposed legislation to do the workweek adjustment will apply to the agencies. The agency presidents and the executive directors have asked if they can do some thinking about how they are going to have that apply and wanted us to approach it with some flexibility. They wanted to have some time to think about that and come back in the near future to discuss it. Mr. Martindale: Madam Chairperson, I guess I need to be more specific because my understanding is that civil servants will be required to take 1 0 days off without pay.

Does the 10 days off without pay apply to the Child and Family Services agencies, and if so, will they be the same days that other civil servants take off, or will the flexibility be that they can choose any 1 0 days they want during the year? Mr. Gllleshammer: The principle is to show a reduction in the Salary line of the budgets within those agencies. We do have that expectation of the agencies. We will work with them because they felt that they wanted to provide us with some solutions which worked best for them.

When I met with them the previous week to discuss this with them, their initial reaction is that they can live with that, but they would like to have some flexibility and time to think about it. We will be meeting again in the near future to see what they can do to find that savings within the Salary line of their particular agencies and yet provide the service in the best way possible. Mr. Martindale: Madam Chairperson, I would like to move just for a minute to the Foster Family Association and the suggestion that they are going to refuse to take new children into care.

Apparently different chapters of this association have been

1312 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA March 24, 1993 discussing this and voting on it, and several of them, 1 00 percent of their members, voted in favour of not accepting new children. My understanding is that this is going to create a very serious problem because unless the existing Child and Family Services agencies can find placements for these children in foster families, they are going to pile up in institutions and in hotels and motels. This is a very expensive alternative.

In fact, I would suggest it is a much more expensive alternative than negotiating in good faith with this organization and keeping at least some of their funding in place so they can provide services. The figures that we are provided with said that it would cost at least $220 a day to keep a child in a hotel or motel when you consider the food and the motel fee and the staffing cost for looking after those children in those institutions. So does the minister anticipate that this is a problem and that this is a better alternative than keeping the funding in place for the Family Foster Association? Mr.

Gilles hammer: I expect that the foster families will act in a responsible way in providing the home and the guidance and work with the agencies with those children as they have in the past. The member raises the spectre of the use of hotel rooms in place of foster families. I heard the executive director of the Winnipeg agency on television on Friday. At the present time, I believe out of some 2,700 children in care, they had either seven or 11 children who were in hotel.

This is not, obviously, a preferable way of dealing with the situation but one which has historically been used if a family of four is taken into care at midnight or if there are individuals who are taken into care whom they have not a family to match with. Sometimes that is an option that has been used for a number of years. I say to you, it is not a preferable solution, but it is a decision that the agency sometimes is forced to make depending on the individual circum stances that present themselves when those children come into care.

Again the member is saying that various branches of the MFFA are indicating that they may do this or they may do that. I know from my experience with people who are foster parents at the present time, and many of my colleagues are familiar with foster parents, they will do what is right for the children. Certainly in some cases they may present a special challenge to the agency that has taken a child into care. The agencies have indicated they will work very diligently to find appropriate settings for these children to be placed in.

Also appreciate that some of the children who are taken into care will require very specialized care that ma y not be available the day that voluntary placement is made or the day the apprehension is made. The agency may decide to wait a matter of a day, a week or two weeks before they make what they think is an appropriate placement, because it is better to make that appropriate placement the first time than to place the child in a foster home and then have to change if the skills perhaps are not there or the match is not as desirable as the agency would like it to be.

So these are challenges that the agencies have always faced in taking children into care. Again, I have every confidence that the foster families across Manitoba will respond to the challenge of taking care of these children who come into care. The recruitment of foster families is an ongoing challenge that agencies face, and they will continue to do that. I know here in the city of Winnipeg, since the restructuring of the agency, that they are prepar ed to rededicate spec ific staff to that particular function.

Again, with the good work of the agencies and the co-operation of parents, every effort will be made to find those appropr iate placements. Mr. Martindale: Madam Chairperson, well, the minister and I certainly agree in that we hope that families will come forward to provide care in family homes, but the message that I am getting from foster families who are calling me is that they are very angry and they are very disappointed and they are saying, we are not going to do this because we are fed up with this government.

Now individuals, of course, are going to make their own decisions. * (15 10 ) We hope, in the interests of children, that they will still come forward and volunteer to take children. If they do not, then this province and this government and this minister have a very serious problem, and I believe a very expensive problem, because while 11 in hotels is a very small percentage of 2,700 children, if that grows then the problem and the expense will certainly grow.

March 24, 1993 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1313 Since this minister is eliminating the funding for the Foster Family Association and expecting Child and Family Services agencies to be responsible for education and training and support, I wonder if he could tell the House how cutting support to other external agencies is going to help children and families and keep them out of care. For example, funding to Indian and Metis friendship centre � has been eliminated. Funding for the Man1toba Anti-Poverty Organization has been eliminated. Funding to child care centres has been cut. Fees have been increased.

Day nurseries have had a big increase in fees. There are many children who are in child care centres, who are in day nurseries, who take

part in programs at Indian and Metis friendship centres who otherwise might be at higher risk, who otherwise might be apprehended, who otherwise might be in care, and these programs and services are preventative in nature. I have been told t�at some friendship centres, for example, have healing circles where people who have been wounded by our system are finding healing, and that is a good thing. If Indian and Melis friendship centres cannot provide those healing circles any longer and cannot help people to put their lives back together, then they are going to be more fragile.

They are going to be the responsibility of formal government systems instead of these external agencies, and it is going to cost this government more money because, for one thing, the staff are unionized. The staff are civil servants or eouivalent to civil servants, and these are very expensive systems to operate. So how does this minister plan to provide those services when I believe more children are going to come into care, when there are fewer preventative services, when there are fewer services at the front end?

What is going to happen is that children are going to come into the system at the back end, at the expensive end where chil dren are institutionalized or where they are before the courts. 1 do not see how the minister can provide these services with fewer dollars in his budget. So I would like to know what the minister's rationale is for cutting what I believe are valuable and preventative services in place of what I believe may end up being more expensive services. Mr.

Gll leshammer: Madam Chairperson, the member really has asked a very global question here about the entire department, bringing in daycare, the social allowances and child welfare. I am going to have to take a few minutes to respond to all of that. What is so clear is that there is not one area, and 1 challenged the member's Leader the other day to tell me what area there is that we could save money within the Department of Family Services so that we could have these increases in funding in other areas. I am still waiting for the Leader of the NDP (Mr. Doer) to give us that answer.

I can recall challen ging the member for Burr ows (Mr. Martindale) on that issue once before, and he said, tax the corporations more, yet his good friends in Ontario reduced the tax on corporations. 1 really am reminded of one of my colleagues, who says very clearly and has said often, that there !s always a different philosophy of the NDP 1n opposition as compared to when they were in government.

I ask the member for Burrows to think about that, because I know, given his background prior to politics, that he is a very honourable man and that he knows that there are difficult decisions to make out there. 1 know that the Premier of Saskatchewan, for instance, and his fellow travellers in Saskatchewan do not take any delight in cutting the hospitals 3 percent in Saskatchewan. They do not take any delight in taking 4 percent of the public school budget in Saskatchewan. They do not take any delight in cutting municipalities back 8 percent in Saskatchewan. [interjection] Well, the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen) wants to join in, and maybe we can get around to her later. They do not take any delight, I am sure, in Saskatchewan in wiping out the entire Environment department. The Department of Environment in Saskatchewan does not exist anymore as a cost-saving measure. The prescription drug plan in Saskatchewan to most citizens of Saskatchewan is gone. [interjection] The member for Wolseley, I would challenge her in the same way to offer some solu tions within the Department of Family Services where we can make those savings so that we can redirect that funding to vital services.

Her fellow travellers in Choices came in with a lower proposed budget last year in Family Services than we did as government. If you look at the budget of Family Services over the last five years, we have seen dramatic increases

1314 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 24, 1993 in all areas of our budget. In the area dealing with foster care, we have seen increases of 50 to 70 percent in the money that flows to foster parents. Let not members opposite-and, again, I know my colleague ther e who is now the critic is an honourable man and will want to have the correct information on the record because I know that he believes what he says should always be correct and it should be the truth. I admire him for that because he painstakingly finds out the facts before he puts things on the record.

There was an editorial in the Winnipeg Free Press very recently when the Newfoundland budget and the Saskatchewan budget came out the same day. It says: Showing the way. I think it is important that you focus on those words because I think those two governments have shown the way. They have shown that governments must spend less, and in some cases, they must tax less. There is one line in that editorial that I would like to read to him .

It says: "No Canadian politician from any party who is actually in office pretends any more that there is any choice but to cut spending, reduce the deficit and get the debt under control.· I know that the editorial is referring to politicians who are in government, but surely the same test must apply to members who are in opposition. There is no choice but to cut spending. There is no choice but to try and reduce the deficit and attack the long-term debt.

In all of the comm ents that I have heard from across the way from my honourable friend and his fellow travellers over there, it is to spend, spend, spend more. I can tell you that it probably did not give Roy Romanow any delight in having to put the sales tax up to 9 percent, but I mean the options have not changed. Either you let the deficit run wild, or you reduce your spending or you increase your taxes. An Honourable Member: Have you seen what your government has done to the deficit over five years? Mr. Gllleshammer: My honourable American friend wants to get into the debate and say that there are options.

Well, I can tell you that there are no options. Either we reduce the spending or we let the deficit run wild and target our spending- Madam Chairperson: Order, please. • (1 520) Point of Order Ms . Jean Friesen (Wolsele y): Madam Chairperson, on a point of order, I thought I heard the Minister of Family Services suggest that my colleague the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) was an American. I wonder if the Minister of Family Services is going to attack every member of this House on their origin. Is that the kind of rhetoric that we hear from this particular government? Go ahead. Let us start with everyone.

Madam Chairperson: It is not a point of order, but I would caution that all mem bers ensure that we understand that all members in this House indeed are honourable memb ers and should be referred to as such. ••• Mr. Gllleshammer: I would apologize if anyone took offence to that. I referred to my honourable friend because the member was the critic in this department, and over the last number of budgets we did spend a considerable amount of time debating the Estimates of Family Services. I regret if that was misconstrued in any other way.

To get back to discussions on the global picture that my friend from Burrows, the new critic in Family Services, has raised, that we have to target our spending in som e particular way within this department. I do agree that we have to provide the funding for those things that are really and truly necessary and find the funds for the vulnerable people that this department serves, whether they be in the area of social allowances or whether they are in daycare or in child welfare. These are all really important areas.

I know in that editorial it talked about showing the way where other governments have now brought in their budgets and have had to reduce spending to very, very vital areas-and I can appreciate the tremen dous im pact this is going to have in Newfoundland and in Saskatchewan. I think you will see, as other budgets come down, there is a realization on the part of governments that we have to reduce our spending. I suspect that realization is there in the mind of the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) as well.

All of us who read the local papers realize what a difficult, difficult budget process the City of Winnipeg is going through. Well, all governments across this country, whether they be municipal, provincial or the federal

March 24, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1315 government, have to make some very, very difficult decisions. I am pleased the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) indicated that a number of times over the last week, that governments have difficult, difficult choices to make, and as a result we have to spend less in some areas but, at the same time, protect those vital services that we offer. The memb er more specifically in his question referenced organi zations li ke the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization.

I certainly appreciate the valuable input that they have had, and I have indicated that there are other organizations that do similar work. The social allowance coalition of Manitoba, for instance, has offered many suggestions to me at regular meetings that I had with them of changes­ [interjection] Well, we have implem ented a number of them . We have also met with the WORD organization, and I can tell you, their valuable input as well as interest of course on the part of the minister and the department have led to the creation of a new program for the disabled.

These were programs that were not in place before, programs that many other jurisdictions offered, programs that have been put in place by this government over the last couple of years. So again my point to the member for Burrows is, if we are going to create new programs and if we are going to establish new programs and dedicate money to those specific needs, sometimes we have to make those difficult, difficult decisions that if you reduce some funding on one hand to create programs and increase funding on the other hand, those are the tough ch oi ces you ma ke in government.

I know that the member for Burrows probably does read the information coming out of other jurisdictions to see what difficult decisions are being made. Things are no different in Manitoba. We are pleased that over five budgets that we have not had to raise personal taxes. Probably that is the greatest impetus for individuals to have more spending money in their pockets today to encourage the economy and purchase those vital goods and services that they need and to create jobs. The member also referenced the friendship centres, and I have had the opportunity to attend some of them.

I regret that I was not able to go with the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) today because of other commitmen ts to the Foster Family Association and to cabinet, but members from this side of the House have had the opportunity to attend those centres. We have looked at a

summary of their annual reports, and the funding that we are withdrawing from that particular area amounts to a little less than 13 percent of the ir globa l budget. Jus t as businesses and industry and other organizations and government have to make those downsizing adjustments, those friendship centres will have to make those same commitments to change some of the things they do, and they have elected and appointed boards in some cases. They will look at the priorities that they themselves establish and determine how they in fact are going to spend their money. The member also referenced child care.

I have said before, and I do not think members opposite can challenge that, that no budget line within the Department of Family Services, in fact probably no budget line within government has seen such a dramatic increase in funding as the daycare line. I maybe could go into a little more detail on the convention that I attended in Brandon last fall with the Canadian Day Care Advocacy Association and the Canadian Child Day Care Federation. The issues that they raised there are very important issues for them and are national issues.

They talked about raises, they talked about respect, and they talked about their organizations. Again, one of the ways we judge the amount of spending that we do across gov ernmen t is interprovincial comparisons. I think it is important that we, from time to time, look at the amount of funding that we have and the amount of spending we do vis-a-vis other provinces. The province of Saskatchewan, for instance, very similar in size and very similar in population, spends about one-third of the amount of dollars we do in the whole area of daycare.

I suspect there is going to be a very, very small increase in their daycare budget line this year and, similarly, there will be one in ours. Manitoba compares very favourably. If you look at the hourly wage across all positions, we are higher than the national average. I think there is only one province in Canada that has a higher hourly wage average than Manitoba does. If you look at the teacher-director, again, we are in excess of $3,000 higher than the national average. If you look at the administrative director on an hourly basis, the hourly base wage is $2 higher than the national

1316 LEGISlATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 24, 1993 average. If you look at the annual wage for administrative directors, it is almost $5,000 higher. I think it is important we look at how we do in each of these areas compared to other provinces. I have met frequently with the staff and board members from the MCCA and the home-based child care, and they recognize that we have made tremendous strides in this area in recent years. They recognize, and we recognize, that they have still some unfulfilled aspirations that we will work on in coming years.

The other point I would make there is looking at the turnover rate as it relates to the staffing in daycares, both family daycares and daycare centres across the country. The national average is four points higher than Manitoba in terms of turnover rate. So while there are still issues that I know as an organization, as a union, that they want to address, we have made great strides in the last five years. The 1 00 percent increase in the funding to that budget line is an example of that.

I think perhaps, Madam Chairperson, that I will stop there and we can get into some more of this when we get into the line-by-line Estimates. Mr. Martindale: Madam Chairperson, the minister said his answer was going to be global and it was so global he was all over the map, and he did not answer the question. I could summa rize the question quite succinctly for him. I was not talking about spending more money. I was not advocating that the minister spend more money.

What I did question was how does this minister plan to reduce the budget in a couple of items, in Maintenance of Children and External Agencies and to Child and Family Services agencies, and provide service for children when what he has also reduced is funding to organizations like friendship centres and increasing fees to daycares, which is going to discourage people, and capping the number of spaces, actually reducing the number of spaces by 400, when the results of these policies are going to be more children taken into care and increased expenses? Can the minister answer that very specific question?

How does he plan to reduce the budget when the effects of these budget changes are going to be more children going into more expensive care and an increase in cost? • (1 530) Mr. Gllleshammer: The fact of the matter is, globally. we are not reducing the budget. We have seen year after year the largest increases across governmen t within Family Services. There are some changes restructuring in government this year where some parts of the Department of Family Services will be found in other Estimates, but I think you will see overall there will be an increase in the global budget dedicated to Family Services.

I did not get around to talking about the healing circles that the member raised before, but this is an area, of course, that is of interest to him and to myself. I think there has been some interesting work done there even in recent weeks and months, and there are a number of initiatives that he may want to ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) about because of the funding arrangements through the Department of Justice.

But I have indicated to the member that there is going to be some reduction in the Child and Family Services budget line because of the changes we have announced to the amounts that the foster parents are going to get. There is a decrease in the amount that a number of the agencies are going to get because of workforce management. Also, grants to some of the advocacy groups and some of the agencies are going to have their budget reduced. But the challenge of providing the service that the Child and Family Services agencies provide, we have made that challenge to the presidents and the executive directors.

I have indicated that they feel that they can live with those decisions and provide the tremendous services that they do to the children who come into care. I might also take the opportunity to talk about some of the reforms that we have also brought into the system , one being the Child Advocate that I know the member has always been very supportive of, and that advocate has now been hired. The Advocate's office will be up and running. We have also accepted the work of Professor Reid and his partner with the high risk indicators.

This is a tremendously interesting innovation that has come into child welfare as a tool for social workers to use. There is interest not only in other jurisdictions in Canada but also in some of the American jurisdictions. That work was first funded by the Department of Family Services .

March 24, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1317 It has been fiel d-tested because of the Department of Family Services, and now it is being implemented not only in Manitoba but in other jurisdictions and is seen as one of the more positive things that has happened to the art and the science of social work across Canada and the United States. So we have been pleased with that. We have also spent millions of dollars on our new information system, and I would invite the member perhaps to avail himself to look at a field test of that particular system.

Recently I was at the Central Manitoba Child and Fa mily Se rvices ag ency wh er e they wer e dem onstrating the many innovative approaches they can take to child welfare through this information system . I have said before, perhaps not when the member was in the House, but I would say that one of the biggest shocks almost three years ago when I became minister was to see the lack of technology and the lack of automation in child welfare that existed. The fact that there were files lost and not completed appropriately certainly affected the ability of social work professionals and agencies to do their work.

We now have well on its way to practical use a system that is going to provide instant information, perhaps not only at the office level but in the car, so that social workers can instantly call up very specific and needed information on a particular family and a particular child and allow them to do that social work in a much more effective and better way.

I can tell you that agency directors and staff are excited about the new technology that is going to save them countless hours and have that immediate recall of information that is going to be able to allow them to dedicate more personal time to the child and to the family and to the resolution of problems. So while there is some reduction of spending going directly to foster parents, there has been an increase in spending to bring these other reforms into place. Mr. Mart indale: Madam Chai rper son, I am pleased to see that the minister is interested in healing circles.

It is certainly something that I am interested in as well. While it may be in the area of respo nsibilit y of the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), I would hope that the Minister of Family Services and the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) are all co-operating to see that the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry are implemented and that more and more use is made of healing circles. Several months ago I had occasion to be at a conference that included people from the Hollow Water community.

They were talking about the system of support to families that they have in place there and apparently are doing an excellent job, and we hope that can be replicated in other areas. My understanding is that at Hollow Water they are responsible for the children on their reserve and that all the children are staying in the commu nity. lfthey leave the comm unity they are only going to aboriginal foster homes. I am pleased to see that there seems to be support from the provincial government for this comm unity and for their me thod of bein g responsible for their own community.

I hope this can be replicated in every community in Manitoba, every aboriginal community. The mi nister made reference to the Ch ild Advocate and suggested that I support the idea of a Child Advocate. Well, our support, of course, is conditional. We support the idea of a Ch ild Adv ocate but only one who repor ts to the Legislature, as the Ombudsman does, rather than a Child Advocate who only reports to the minister. Of course, we are on record on that quite extensively, so I do not think I need to belabour the fact.

I would like to move on to some of the other parts of his budget, although I suppose some of them may be on the same page that we have been talking about. The elimination of funding to the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization certainly concerns me, as it does many. many poor people in Manitoba and many of my colleagues in this caucus who represent inner-city constituencies who probably provide the majority of constituents who make use of the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization. I am wondering what the rationale was of this minister. I know the staff were very disappointed and shocked.

I was the one who phoned them and told them that their funding had been cut, because they do not own a fax machine, so they did not get the letter I guess from the deputy minister that other external agencies got on the same day, no doubt they got it later in the mail. But they had no warning that this cut was coming. We disagree with the press release that went out saying that the organizations that were cut were

1318 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 24, 1993 advocacy organizations and that this government was going to con tinu e to protect their three departments that they think are the most important, I believe Health, Education, and Family Services. We think that they have abandoned that goal of protecting those three departments and now the cuts are coming in those departments as well. We have some of the proof here in the cuts to External Agencies and the increase in daycare fees, et cetera.

Now the knife has been thrust into this minister's department and we see the results of bleeding people and organizations all over the place. Many of the 56 organizations are organizations that cannot find funding from other sources. I would like to ask the minister: Who does he think should provide the resources that are now being provided by the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization, and why indeed did he eliminate all of their funding from his department to that fine organization? • (1 540) Mr.

Gllleshammer: Madam Chairperson, in our discussions this afternoon I have challenged the member to give me some ideas where we could save some fund ing, to redirect it within our department, and I am still waiting for even one sugges tion whereby we can reduce fundin g somewher e to increase funding elsewhere. I respect that perhaps the member needs more time to think about that, and we will have an opportunity, I am sure, in the Estimates process, where he gets a chance to bring those initiatives forward and to give that advice.

I am pleased that the member has visited some of the native communities where healing circles are being used. I too have had an opportunity to visit some of the northern reserves at an invitation of Chief Jer ry Fon taine, who was then chief responsible for child welfare. There is no question that there are great strides being made in trying to resolve problems on reserves. I applaud the native community for that. For sure the best solutions are solutions they find within their own community. The Child Adv ocate , again, the memb er references.

I was pleased to have the support of all members of the House for this legislation and am pleased that we will soon be able to have the office open and running later this spring. Specifically, the member is asking about the Mani toba Anti-Poverty Organization and their advocacy function on behalf of social allowance recipients in Manitoba and Winnipeg particularly. I did have an opportunity, as my friend in the Liberal Party knows, to visit there just a few weeks ago to discuss with the executive director and the staff of the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization some of the concerns that they had.

I would challenge the member when he says they had no warning. That is incorrect. We sent a cautionary letter to them in the fall indicating that there may be some funding adjustments. I also met with them personally at their offices some three, four weeks ago and said to them in very direct terms that our budget this year was just an extremely, extremely difficult one and that there were initiatives that we had funded in the past that we simply were not going to be able to proceed with this year.

I could not give them any more direct information at that time, but they certainly were aware of the difficult financial situation the province is in . Again, I say to you, the change s that we discussed earlier that Premier Romanow has brought in with reductions to hospitals and schools and municipal corporati ons, universities, is not something that the government of Saskatchewan wanted to do. There is a recognition there in government that these are difficult times. I am a little concerned that my honourable friend is not listening, but I know he will be able to read this later on.

I have indicated that there are a number of other organizations who provide input to social allowance recipients. I have met with the social allowance coalition of Manitoba on a regular basis. I can tell you that they do much the same work as MAPO provides in terms of representing individual clients and finding, in some cases, appropria te circumstances for them. I have also indicated that the WORD organi zation re presents social allowance recipients who are disabled and have done some good work in bringing information before the ministry.

There are func tion s that the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization provided in terms of their used clothing shop over there that is also provided by other organizations. I would suggest that maybe the church is one organization in the city of Winnipeg and in other areas of Manitoba that historically has provided some of these services. I know, given the

March 24, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1319 honourable member's former vocation and I know he is not far from it at the present time, he would see a real role for the church here in provid ing some of the services that the member is advocating for. So in these difficult economic timel:r-and I know the member for Conc ordia (Mr.

Doer) has acknowledged the difficult choices we have to make-and with these difficult choices, there are some advocacy groups that we are going to have to ask to do with less, and I am sure there are other organi zati ons and other groups within the community that will pick up some of the shortfall in terms of the service that was provided. Mr. Martindale: Madam Chairperson, the minister has suggested that churches should pick up the slack from organizations that his government has cut the funding to.

I would say that, in the past, churches have provided many different kinds of services to the community which have then been taken over by gove rnment. This mi nister is suggesting that we reverse that, that services provided by the government be sent back to be provided by churches. That is happening in the area of free food from Winnipeg Harvest food bank. In fact, something like 75 to 80 churches and social agencies are distributing food from Winn ipeg Harvest. But I have a problem with that in spite of the fact that I am a United Church minister.

I believe that what we are talking about here is a difference between indiv idual charity and socie ty's respon sibil ity, collectiv ely, to provide for the weakest members of our society. You know, there are good things about churches providing social services and charity and children's programs and the many, many things that churches have always and continue to provide. It is good to see volunteers caring about other people in the community. It is good to see people sharing.

It is good to see waste food being redistributed through Winnipeg Harvest, but there are many, many disadvantages and many, many problems with meeting people's basic needs through charitable means and through churches. If we just take food banks as an example, I am still very familiar with how churches are distributing food and the Kfnd of food that comes to them from Winnipeg Harvest, because I continue to drop in from time to time to the North End Commun ity Ministry where I worked for 1 0 years.

They invite me from time to time to be a part of their sharing circle before they hand out the food, but they also inform me as to how inadequate this method is of feeding hungry people. For example, the Sunday after Grey Cup Sunday last year, they had the usual bread and doughnuts to hand out. They had limes to hand out and they had cakes saying, Go, Blue Bombers, Go. That was the kind of food that was being provided to hungry people the week after Grey Cup Sunday in Winnipeg. I think that is a d isgrace; I think it is inadequate. I think it is not a good way of meeting people's basic needs.

In fact, one of the problems is that it is not nutritious. At this time of year, what the food banks are getting is primarily stale or dated bread and doughnuts. Those are the two elements that make up the bulk of the donations to Winnipeg Harvest. Canned goods are in very short supply. Canned goods are in short supply all year round at Winnipeg Harvest, and so, nutritionally, people are not getting good food. What they are getting is food that is high in starch, high in carbohydrates and high in sugar. This is not a good way to feed people.

They make appeals for the things that they really need like baby food, but they never get enough baby food donated for what the demand is. * (1 550) I believe that what we have, or what we had in society was a way of redistributing wealth so that people's basic needs were met through the income tax system , through social assistance programs which benefit from wealth redistribution in our society. In fact, the Canada Assistance Plan says that Canadians' basic needs for food, shelter and clothing shall be met.

That is the program which, as the minister well knows, provides 50 percent of the funding for provincial social assistance in every province. So I believe that governments have a moral responsibility and a legal responsibility to provide for our citizens in a way that also not only meets their needs, but meets their needs in ways that respect people's dignity and respect people's pride. There is no dignity and there is no pride when people have to line up at food bank outlets.

I know that where I worked they started off with 30 bags of potatoes a week and 15 people, and very, very quickly went to 75 to 15 0 people a week and

1320 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 24, 1993 line-ups and handing out num bers and giving people numbers. I would invite-1 have invited the minister before, but we need to make an appointment to go across the street to All Saints parish or to go to the North End Community Ministry and to be there when the food is handed out and to see this system, which I believe is an inadequate and an inferior system to providing decent incomes to people through the social allowances system.

Now the minister was challenging me and some of his colleagues on the front be nch wer e challenging me to sugges t ways that this government could save money. I think that i:3 a reasonable question and challenge to me. I have said, and I will say again, that I believe that when this minister makes cuts to child care centres and day nurseries, when there are fewer resources in terms of intervention and respite and keeping families together and monitoring kids, instead of taking them into care, it is cheaper to provide communi ty resources and prevention than it is to have children in care, which is very costly.

I believe the result of these cuts will be more children coming into care. If funding is available for the open end of the system, then there will be fewer children coming in at the closed end of the system. That is where this government has a choice in whether they spend the money in prevention and resources in the community or whether they spend mo�e money because more children are coming into care. That is my suggestion for where this government can save money. I would like to move on now to the area of student social allowance. We have a legal problem here.

If students are not in school and they apply for city welfare, they cannot be going to school, because when you are on municipal welfare in Manitoba you are deemed employable and you must be available for work and you must be looking for work. You cannot do that when you are going to school . Where are these students going to go? Are they going to apply for provincial social assistance? If so, will they get it? Will they be able to stay in school? Will the amounts be the same as before or will they be less or will they be more?

Will the amounts be adequate so that students who formerly were on the student social allowance program will indeed be able to stay in school? Mr. Gilles hammer: Madam Chairperson, I will get to the student social allowances after I address some of the other issues that the member raised in his

preamble. I am very pleased to hear the memb er say there is a recognition that the commu nity has a role to play, that government cannot be everything and do everything for individual citizens. I heartily agree that there is a role for the commu nity, whether it is through the church or through other service groups. I would say to him that I have been across the street to the ministry. I have been to Winnipeg Harvest, and I have been there when they have been open and providing the services that they provid e. The memb er indi cates that the government sort of took over the role of the church.

I believe in some cases that is true. There was a certain philosophy in government in Manitoba at one time that government should regulate everything and be all things to all people. Government simply cannot do that. The member talks about his desire to redistribute wealth. I would like to read him a quote from Premier Roma now in Ja nuary. I th in k my honourable friend can relate to this. It relates to what I said earlier. I hope the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) will take the time to listen.

He said: For a New Democrat who is used to being in government when the economy is expanding and who is used to redistributing wealth, to be changed to creating wealth and to taking back concessions given to people in better times is so darn difficult. That is the challenge that is facing all governments. All goverr.ments are faced with the prospect of doing less and of being less involved in so many thing s . Premier Roma now ha s recognized-and as you read the details of his budget, he has not only recognized it, but he has acted upon it within that budget.

We too are in the same position that we find ourselves with the need to have to do less in terms of providing all of these services and all of these programs for people. This is where I think it is impor tant to em power the com munities. If the churches, in fact, that the member represents feel that government has in some way elbowed them out of the way so that government is going to provide for all of these needs, then we have to send that me ssage not only to the com mu nity but to community groups and to churches to encourage

March 24, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1321 them to become active in ways that they worked with the commu nity in the past. I would be happy if the member would take that message back to the people he serves, and we will certainly do the same thing. The member talks about meeting the basic needs, and that is what our social allowance system does. It is the safety net to meet the basic needs of people. In every province there are social allowance programs which meet those basic needs, and Manitoba's is no different than any other province in providing that funding.

We probably have the seventh or eighth highest cost of living in the country, and our rates reflect that. Our rates are in the proper perspective to what other provinces do. We do provide that funding to meet the basic needs for individual citizens who are unemployed. I think what the member is talking about in terms of providing additional resources is a guaranteed annual income. I know the member has some interest in that, and I also know that he realizes while the federal government has made so