Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 36B (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-36b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 19 April, 19 82 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIR MAN, Phil Eyler (River East): This Com mittee will come to order. We are consideri ng Item 1. (f)( 1) Manit oba Hor se Raci ng Commission Gr ant Assistance. The Member for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. J. FRANK JOH NSTON (Stur geon Creek): Mr. Chairman, the structure of the Hor se Raci ng Com mission, there is a new commission, but there was a structure that had been put forth last year that, I'm sure would have been implemented.

I wonder if the Min ister is planning to have a Hor se Raci ng Commis sion and a Dir ector of Raci ng that would be working for the Comm ission on a year-round basis with the industry. MR. CHAI RMAN: Madam Minister. HON. MURIEL SMITH (Os borne): Mr . Chai rperson, the structure we have at the present is the Comm is sion plus - I'm not sure what formal title -t he Execu tive Di rector, and that's what we have in place at the moment. So, we haven't addressed that other recom mendation, but I will certainly ask that the Comm is sion look at the pros and cons of that structure and make a recommendation to me.

MR. JOH NSTO N: Than k you. As I recall, there is an Executive Dir ector of the Comm ission there at the present time. There is a Secretary, I believe; there was also to have been as I mentioned, an Exe cutive Di rec tor that would be responsible to the Commission or the Min ister, whichever was chosen. He would be salarie d by the Commission. The offices of the Hor se Ra cing Commission was intended to be more or less a year-round office and the plans were to look for more office space or, if the expansion of the off ice space at the Downs proved to be satisfacto ry, they might stay ther e.

It was felt that the Commission should possibly have office space more centr ally located in Winnipeg. Has that been taken into consideration or been looked at? MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chai rperso n, $50, 000 has been spent to improve the office that we currently have and the Exec utive Secretary that we have there is full-time and for the moment, that is the pattern we're going with. We have added an active Vice-Chairperson to the Commission itself. MR.

JOH NSTON: The paper repor ted that - and don't kno w whether it's accurate or not, but -is it the intention of the Commission to bring in stewards from Ontario and the States? MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chai rperson, the final decision is 1 605 not clear. Ther e was a need to appoint stewards fairly qu ickly because the season starts ver y soon. Ther e had been a death of one of the stewards that had been at the Downs. The prime concern in looking for ste wards was to get people who were very capable and who would be av ailable for the year-round season that we now are supporting.

The final decision on those stewards has not as yet been made public. Agai n, I don't need to tell the honourable member, who a short time ago sat in my relationsh ip to the commission, that rumours do abound and not ever y thing that finds its way into the newspaper can be relied on to be an accurate reflect ion. MR. JOH NSTON: Well, there's no que stion that the stewards are exceptionally people.

If the public ever the idea that there is something wrong regarding the betting out there, or something wrong between horse owner s, and well any rumour that, as the Minister says, starts does affect the attend ance at the track if they think things are not going well. Ha s ther e been any move to try to train stewards in Manitoba. The suggestion I make that there are a lot of inspectors in the lotteries who are not kept as busy as they might be who could be trained to be stewards for the Racing Co mmission and for the track, of course, ther e's also the rural meets, etc.

I'm wondering if ther e is a thought of looking toward those people if they have the time or is ther e going to be a trai ning for stewards from Man itoba, let's say? MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chairperson, I think that is an excellent idea. I'm informed that under cons ideration at the moment the top leaders are one ex-Manitoban, one Ontarian and one American citizen.

Given the need for a fairly sp eedy appointment and the very highly specialized skills that are req uired to acco mp lish just what the member did refer to, that is an atmosphere of confidenc e among the betting public so that they feel that there are competent people in those positions and that they can rely very heavily on their judgment. So, for the present, as 1. say, the top three under consider ation are the ex-Manitoban, the Ontarian and the American.

Ther e are five or six Man itobans next in line and I think it's an excelle nt idea that they be given some training so that we do, in fact, build toward more capacity in that area right here in Man itoba. MR. JOH NSTON: Is it the intention of the Min ister to allo w the horsemen and the horse owner s to partici pate financially with the track regarding the back stretch with the funds that are going to be made av ail able to them? If so, is ther e a limit going to be put on it? MRS. SMITH: Well, Mr .

Chairper son, those questions are still under review by the Com mission work ing jointly with the horsemen, the breede rs and the track. MR. JOHNSTO N: I just have one more question. Well, we all know what the newspaper s have been saying in the past few days and it's encouraging to

Monday, 19 April; 19 82 kn ow that the tr ack is a separ ate company of Mr . Go buty's. I personally know he's worked very hard to make that track attract ive to people to go to and par ticipate in the racing. I know it's a little early and the commission is just meeting with him, is ther e any assurance from him that the racing will start and that there will be a complete season of racing in Man itoba? MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chai rper son, we do ha ve that as surance both from Mr . Go buty and from the banker that does look after the track acco unt.

I suppose the only outside thing that could happen is if na tional authorities at the bank decide otherwise. But we have, as you kno w, had our own auditor and the track has had an auditor in check ing the books today and I' ve been pleased that the commission has been acting very responsibly and quickly to clarif y the situation to give the public of Man itoba the protection they ne ed and also to give the track owner s every due considera tion as well. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Ar thur): Mr .

Chairman, this may be a repet itive question, if it is I'll respect your judgment and you can indicate that it's been answered and I'll look in Hansard . The increase of some $2 million, Mr . Chai rman, has probably been discussed, could the Min ister give us a breakdown of what percentage will go to the thor oughbred and the standar d bred industry? Is ther e a new thrust within the Depar tment of Tourism to encourage the stan dard bred racing in Man itoba through the Gr ant Assistance Program? MRS. SMITH: Mr .

Chai rper son, the split as it works out is approximately half and half, the standard bred increase was put in under the term of the - well I guess it was almost ready to go at the change of government - and we in fact, did endor se it. The other portion of the industr y levy, that is going to be cove red by the change in The Pari Mutuel Tax Act.

I think this afte rnoon I indicated that the division of that money is being negotiated at present by the new commission meeting with the breeders, the horsemen and the tra ck, both together and separately and I have been told that they're very close to consensus on that. They've been encour aged to look at what their respective needs are and to recog nize that as an industry they each need the other group to be in a healthy condition.

So I' m qu ite confident that the pro cess they've gone through is going to come very close to consensus and if there is areas that are still not agreed to by those groups the commission will make the determination. MR. DOWNEY: The funds as the Minister indicates, and if I understand corr ectly, will be dispersed throughout and not just the standard bred racing at the Assiniboia Downs but throughout the Gr eat Western Cir cuit throughout the Province and the work will be provided for the meets at the Agr icultural Society race meets and fai rs throughout the provi nce during the summer months, is that correct?

MRS. SMIT H: Yes, ther e is some increased funding going for those purposes, $30, 000 for capital improve ments to the Gr eat Western Cir cuit and the other, the purse support, the breeder s awards, the sires stakes are all 10 percent up over 19 81 -82. With regard to quarter horse racing the support of the development is $5, 500 and the purse breeders are up 2.8 percent to $1 1 ,5 00 and the capital improve ments are new and that's to the tune of $25,0 00. 00. MR. DOWNEY: Mr .

Chair man, I wasn't keep ing track of the numbers that the Min ister was putting out but it doesn't seem anywher e near that the amount of $2 million is being used up in that figure. It's been, I would think, less than $1 00,000 the amount of money that she has indicated. The basic question was ... She has first of all indicated that 50 perce nt will go to the thoroughbreds which racing takes place at Assiniboia Downs MRS. SMITH: No, I didn't say that. MR. DOWNEY: I misunderstood Mr . Chairman. I asked the question.

There was an increase of almost $2 million, if I understand it, we're in in (f) (1 ), is that correct? And that ther e's an increase of $2 million. I asked if that increase, Mr . Chai rman, would be divided eq ually, or she has indicated as I understood it, would be divided eq ually between the standard bred and the thor oughbred, and if that's not corr ect, I' ve misunder stood her answer. Maybe she would like to clar ify that. MRS. SMITH: Yes, I can appreciate the difficulty because I wasn't giving precise figures.

Ther e's appr oximately $900, 000 increase to each of the stan dard bred racing and thor oughbred racing and then, in the thor oughbred racing, there are the breeders and the horsemen and the track to be consider ed. Ther e is also an additional amount of over $200, 000 that was voted in the rev ised vote '81 -82 prior to the change of govern ment that went to strenghtening the Comm ission administration. That was for office and somewhat higher honoraria for the commission members. MR. DOWN EY: So, if I understand it correct ly, Mr .

Cha irman, she is indicating, thr ough you to the Minis ter, that there is some $900, 000 going to go to the thor oughbred racing and some $900, 000 going to the stand ard bred racing of which the $900, 000 that the standar d bred racing people will receive, will be added to the racing industry throughout the rural race meets that take place throughout the summer in Man itoba. Is that corr ect? 16 06 MRS. SMITH: Yes. MR. DOWN EY: Mr . Chai rman, that would seem to be a reasonable appr oach if it is going to be spread throughout the provi nce to encourage the standard breds at the rural race meets. Mr.

Chai rman, through you to the Minister, the race-horse industry at the federal level is contr olled or comes under the auspices of the Federal Minister of Agricultur e; all the controls and the regulator y parts of that industry come within that jurisd iction. Does the Min ister of Economic Dev elopment have direct

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 communications with the Depar tment of Agriculture, because a permit has to be issued each year by the Minister of Agriculture within the provinc e to allo w horse racing to take place? I would ask her for her comments on the fact that there is two differe nt juris dictions of govern ment responsible for one industry, does she feel comfortable with it the way it is? Do es she think there could be some changes made to either give all the author ity to the Department of In dustry and Tourism, or does she feel that the Depar tment of Agricultur e should have more input?

I just ask her for a general over all policy statement on tha t because I have seen it somewhat as a difficulty particularly when it is under federal jur isdiction, part of the per mitting of the horse racing in Man itoba is under her department, part of it's under the Department of Agri culture and I sometimes feel that the industry would in fact, feel more comfor table if it repor ted to one Min is ter and one Minister only. I kn ow that some two to three year s ago there was a submission put forward to me - and I don't kno w whether the then Min ister of Economic Dev elopment had any

part in the discussions - where they felt at that time that possibly horse racing should fal l within the jur isdiction of the Ministry of Agriculture and I would ask this Minister for her thoughts in regard to that. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, we haven't encoun tered any difficu lty coor dinating. It seems to me that the nature of the industry probably - I think it would gain from having some kind of federal contr ol, some kind of common ru lings across the country. So I for one would not - unless ver y good arg uments could be brought to the for e - wouldn't see myself initiating a separation.

I think there's some aspects of betting laws that are probably rooted in the Cri minal Code which is a fed er al ma tter and any coord ination that is necessar y seems to be going on quite harmoniously at the moment. As I say, I'm always open to reco nsider if a good ar gument can be made or if difficulties arise, but I can quit e honestly say I haven't encou ntered any as such as yet . MR.

DOWN EY: Well, I would hope the Minister is awar e of the fact - I'm sure she has been made awar e by her department - that if the Minister of Agriculture within the Provi nce of Man itoba did not want to issue a permit, then the Assiniboia Downs could not oper ate, nor could any of the provi ncial race meets oper ate, that that author ity does lie within the Ministry of Agriculture. Does she feel that permission should lie with her author ity or does she feel comfortable that another Minister should have that responsibility? MRS.

SMITH: Mr, Chai rperson, our Cabinet works as a co-operative team and we assume that we all share res ponsibility for all the areas as Members of Cabi net. We bring, as individual Min isters, particular focus to bear on the needs of our programs that come under our departmental responsibilities, but we consult and come to a mutual agree ment on over all policies so I don't anticipate a problem. If there were a differe nce of opinion, it would get sorted out at Cabi net level and I and the Min ister of Agriculture would abide by that joint decision. I'm happy with that process and rule of the game. MR.

DOWNEY: Mr . Chair man, in light of the recent situation that has developed at the Downs, has the Minister of Agricultur e been invol ved in the discus sions and the current rev iew of what has taken place because he is the authorizing Min ister for the opera tion of the Assiniboia Downs? I ask the question, has he been involv ed or his department been involv ed in the rev iew that has taken place? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, he hasn't though not by anyone rejec ting his right to be so involved. In fact, he hasn't been in the city today.

But I will in fact check through with him and make sure that we are on the same wave length. MR. DOWN EY: Mr . Chairman, I would hope that it would be the case, that when the Min ister has to be the authority that has the decision to whether or not there is a race meet held or whether there isn't, that he be or his depar tment be invol ved in that decision so that he's not blind-sighted or misinformed -misin formed is not the correct word -but at least a part of that over all rev iew. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it but I think it is his responsi bility to authorize the operation of that particular meet.

If I'm not correct maybe the Min ister could clarify the issue for me. MRS. SMITH: Well, Mr . Chai rper son, I'd lik e to take that issue under advisement and report back at the next Session of the Comm ittee. As I say, there would be no block on my part to consult and I'm sure there would be full willing ness on the part of my colleague to consult and, as I said before, if ever ther e were disagreement, we'll resolv e that at Ca binet level. 16 07 MR. DOWN EY: Mr .

Chair man, the Min ister - I can't remember -she was on the visit to the Brandon Fair this winter and I would ask her - I think she was -ask the Min ister -well, maybe she wasn't -Mr .

Chairman, maybe some of her colleag ues, particularly the Member for Brandon East who was there and well informed, I'll ask her if she has had any submission to her as a Cabi net colleague, and if she has not had a submission to her from her colleague from Brandon East or Brandon West, there is a proposal coming forward from the people that operate the Provin cial Exhibition and the Keysto ne and general Board of Director s from those organizations, to develop and build a race-track facility on the grounds of the Keys tone Centr e at Br andon; has she had a submission from her col league or from any of the Mem bers for Br andon to enter tain the funding of a race-track facil ity on the Keys tone grounds at Brandon?

MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chai rper son, we have rece ived a proposal and are recommending a grant. MR. DOWN EY: I'm sorry I missed the answer. I was busy visiti ng with my friend on my right. MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chai rper son, we have received a req uest for support and are recommending a grant.

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 We don't have the exact amounts avai lable but if the member would like to have that I can obtain it. MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Cha irman, first of all I'd lik e to kno w the Minister is supporting a grant and I'm sure in supporting that grant she supports the devel oping of a racet rack fac ility at the Keysto ne facilit ies. She said that she has money av ailable as a grant. Where in her Estimates has she got that funding made av aila ble? Is it in this particular appropria tion, or is it else where? Yes, I would lik e to kn ow, Mr .

Chai rman, how much it is because prior to the takeover of govern ment by the Min ister who is now in office ther e was some $600, 000 committed to the developme nt of the Keysto ne Centr e or the further development. I would like to kn ow what commitment this government has to the development of a racet rack and how much money they have co mmitted. MRS. SMITH: Well, Mr . Cha irper son, I'm sorr y for inaccuracy in my previous response. Ther e here been a req uest come in but it hasn't been processed yet and we haven't made a recommendation.

It does not appear in these Estimates because it appeared at a later stage. So I cannot at this time, give an opinion as to whether it would be consi dered in the affi rmative, and if so, how we would pro pose to fund it or whether it would be something that would be taken under cons iderat ion for next year's Estimates. I was not at the Brandon Fair, perhaps where this got some dis cussion, or en route ther e or back. I was, in fact, attending a meeting out in Selkirk. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I apolog ize, I should be calling it the Man itoba Ro yal Winter Fair which it is and the Min ister had indicated in an earl ier answer that she did support it through funds and now she is saying she hasn't got funds, therefore she doesn't support it. I would hope that the Minister - she has received a submission - I would hope that she can now not see fit to back off as a Min ister in the matter of policy matter s in feeling she had put funds forwa rd, she did support it and now because ther e aren't any funds she doesn't support it. They did and they do have, Mr . Chairman, to yo u, they do have . MR.

CHAIRMAN: Madam Min ister on a Point of Or der. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chair person, I did apolog ize for an inaccurate bit of information that was given and I would ask the honourable member to accept that apology and the clarifica tion I made. A proposal has come in to the department but I have not yet received it or a reco mmendation on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur on a Point of Or der. MR. DOWNE Y: On the Point of Or der, Mr . Chairman, I accept the Minister's apologie s that she did change her answer on the fact that there aren't any funds but I'm asking her on a policy matter, Mr .

Chairman, and she is the Min ister, she has to dev elop the policy and I wou Id hope that she is prepared to take that responsi bility as the Min ister Resp onsible for Hor se Ra cing in the Province of Man itoba and I would hope on the policy matter, that she would clarify that. I accept the point that she made that there ar en't funds there and that she's not able to proceed with the granting of funds to that facility this year or the devel opment of it. Ho wever, that does not give her reason, I don't believe, to say that she hasn't got a policy devel oped on that.

She either supports the development of a racetrack facility at the Keysto ne Cent re or she does not, Mr. Chairman.

That to me, I would have thought would have been the responsibility of her colleague who is the Member for Brandon East, who was there and he saw the layout of the racet rack as they had it - a model that is very nicely deve loped - the Member for Br andon West, who I'm sure must sometime or other communicate with the Minister of Tourism on these kin ds of issues that are of concern to the con stituents of Br andon who, I kn ow, feel in a pretty general sense that the development of a racet rack would enhance the over all tourism and the whole horse rac ing industry in Br andon, that the Minister must have some input from those members or she must have a policy of her own.

I accept her apolog ies for not having money. Ho w ever, I don't think she can be excused for not having a personal and a Ministerial responsibility of saying whether she feels that a racetrack and the support of that racet rack is essential to the development of the tourism industry in Brandon. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperso n, I'm sure as the member opposite well kno ws, policy does not get developed in a va cuum, nor is it the responsibility of Ministers to invent policy off the top of their heads because they feel something would be good.

I may feel all sorts of exciting developmen ts would be ter rific for Man itoba but I will deal with them in an orderly way when I either ask for informa tion and ge t it or when I am presented with a proposal. I think anyone who has worked with me kno ws that I'm not beyond ask ing fairly sear ching questions, get ting more informa tion, analy zing a proposal, look ing at the pros and cons before I make a policy recom mendation and tha t's certainly how I intend to deal with this particular issue.

Both members from Br an don ha ve presented a lot of issues to me but in all candor, that's not one we have yet addressed. However, I certainly thank the member for drawing it to my attention and perhaps the next time I go out to Br andon I can look at the model and I will cer tainly go out of my way to ask my colleagues from Brandon what they kno w about the proposal and what they, and indeed other Brandonit es and people in that area, think of the pro posal.

We do have one member on the new commission who lives just outside of Br andon, has raised horses herself and I'm sure that her input as well will be ver y helpful. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it's a ver y nice speech that the Min ister has given. I would like her to, when she's asking the Members for Brandon what they think of it, it certai nly, I think, would be helpful if she would establish a committee with those members or structure something that would be able to make a meaningful presenta tion to her and get them invol ved because it is of interest to that particular city, it's of 16 08

Mond ay, 19 April, 19 82 interest to the horse racing people and if that hasn't been done by the Member for Brandon West. I think there is something that she could mention to them on the side that they ha ve let probably certain people down in their responsibility. Mr. Chairman, I think in those remarks the Minister has made she said she has received a submission. I would lik e to know who she has received that submis sion fr om, No.1. No. 2, who is the person she has appointed to the horse racing commission from the Brandon area? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, the proposal has come to the department.

It hasn't yet come to my consideration, that's a procedure that I'm sure you are fa miliar with in other departments. Ir ene Bauman from Minto is the member that was appointed from that area. MR. DOWNEY: Who did the submission come from, Mr. Chairman? MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chai rper son, my depar tment informs me that it came from Westbend Turf Club. MR. DOWNEY: Mr . Chairman, I thank the Minister for her comments in this regard.

I would look forward to, in the near future. her having her department forward to her their reco mmendations on the proposal that was put forward to them so that she, as the Min ister who is supposed to be responsible for the depar t ment, can answer to the Leg islature and the people of Man itoba. That's the process that I'm as well fam iliar with and I look forward in the near future to having her comments and her statements on policy as it relates to that type of fa cility at the Keysto ne Centr e in Bran don. Thank you. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR.

JOHNSTON: I have just one question to the Min ister regard ing that. Ther e was a req uest, I guess, by the Turf Club or the Western Raci ng Circuit to have standard bred racing in Brandon at the Keys tone - it's either a couple of years ago, I believe - and the Keysto ne Centr e did not accept the recommendation from the Club. In other words, the Keystone Centr e was not that enthusia stic or actually turned down standard bred racing for Brandon at the Keystone Centre. You mention the req uest has come from the Stan dard Br ed Assoc iation or the Brandon Turf Club.

Have they resolv ed their problems with the Keys tone Centr e in that the Keystone Centr e is now co-operating with them or wanting to have it? Because they can't have it if the Keystone Centr e doesn't approve it, and I must say that I wasn't in Br andon either and saw the model so I'm not just sure how it's working. MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chai rper son , those are certa inly que stions that will be added to the group of questions that I would be ask ing on my own accord when the issue comes forward and I thank the members for raising them. MR.

JOHNSTON: Ther e was some talk of a new 16 09 standard bred track on the east side of Winnipeg. Is that still being brought forwar d or has it pretty well been dropped? MRS. SMITH: That req uest is not currently active. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.( f)(1 )-pass; 2.(a )

(1) Opera tions, Strateg ic Plan ning, Administration-p ass. The Member for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. JOHNSTON: If we're going to get that from the other side, we may stay with them longer . I wonder, Mr . Chair man, if the Min ister would just outline a little bit. There's a change; it's called Strateg ic Plan ning. I believe it was called Program Dev elopment and Technical Service. She did outline the change regard ing Strateg ic Pla nning in her open ing state ment. When I say outline, she made refe rence to it.

Could she give me just a bit of an outline of the change that will take place now that it's Strategic Plan ning? MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr . Chai rperso n. I'm sure the honourable members opposite ar e qu ite familiar with the development of the Treas ury Board Management Systems that were carried on during their term in office where the attempt to streamline, make more efficient and effe ctive the govern ment programs was making qu ite a lot of adva nce on the management side and the contr ol side of public fina nce.

What they identified in their studies of government was a need to deve lop a much stronger capacity within departments in the Strateg ic Plan ning end, because it's in the Stra tegic Plan ning that needs are identified and goals set, without which the setting of objectives and the identi fying of the measures for eval uating whether these objecti ves are, in fact, met and therefore, the sort of basic structure which gives the Treasury Boar d some fr amework to work from and the auditors some basic discipline, if you like, some discipline framework within which they can audit effect iveness.

Those were recommendations that were in place when we assumed gove rn ment and we were very pleased to see that because, as you well know, our economic program requir es that we take a ver y care ful planning approach to how much public, how much priva te activity there should be; what the balance should be between social and economic; what oppor tunities should be promoted and in what for m. So, we were more than happy to en·dor se the creation of an ADM to be in charge of Strateg ic Pla nning and Eco nomic Deve lopment.

The task of this ADM will be not only to assist the department in developi ng the skills of goal-setting and objective -setting, setting evalua tion criteria and carr ying out their activities in a more structured way, but also to apply that type of planning to the eco nomic development of the provinc e. That means dev eloping the analy tical ski lls and the infor mation systems that will give accurate feed back to those of us who have to make decisions.

I can identify the functions that will occur und er that department; develop, monitor and rev ise the planning syste m; form ulate or propose economic objecti ves and strategies; educate department offi cials in planning techniq ues; evaluate and consoli date functional plans; understand and propose policy instruments to meet provi ncial socioeconomic objec-

Mond ay, 19 April, 19 82 tives: search out and identify new economic oppor tunities: build on linkages between resource sectors and processing industries and initiate propositions or proposals based on selected opportunities. MR. JOH NSTO N: I think the second-last one you mentioned there was to search for industries? MRS. SMITH: Sear ch out and identify new economic opportunities. MR. JOHNS TON: How does that tie in with your industrial developme nt? MRS. SMITH: Well, I think it would real ly co-ordinate very well with the industrial developme nt.

In a sense it would setthe basic goals, prior ity sectors if you lik e, and then the industrial dev elop ment would work within that framework. They'd prov ide the specialized expertise within the area s where they have the .. . Well, when we get to that

section I can outline the special tasks which they would carr y out. MR, JOH NSTON: As the Minister mentions, that there was a movement afoot to have what we call a strategic plan ner, and as I mentioned in the opening statements that the Strateg ic Plan ning that was being looked at was to have a person or persons to advise, for example, whether a particular industry was good for Man itoba and whether the industrial development people should be conti nuing their efforts in that area or disconti nuing them, if that may be. This is the area that particular program will come under. Is that it? MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chair person, because of our dif ferent approach to economic developme nt, the Stra tegic Plan ning will have a wider task. They will be expe cted to look at both social and economic goals and to include public and private or joint invest ment opportunities.

I would think that the emphasis in the previous organ izational structure was primarily on the manufacturing and processing, and although that will continue to be the focus of the deliv ery programs in the department, the Strategic Pla nning group will, in fact, play a wider role and they will be doing some of the strateg ic planning for the ove rall economic pro grams of the govern ment. MR. JOH NSTO N: Mr. Chair man, I don't qu ite follow the refere nce to the social planning.

I would assume that a strateg ic plan ner looking at an industry that is coming to Man itoba would take into consideration whether the industry was good for Man itoba with all aspects. I assumed that would be done regardless when I was look ing at it. I don't qu ite follow the exten sion of social planning in this area. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chai rper son, I think it's perhaps because, tra ditionally, people have often separ ated business activity from social activity and we're saying that they should be looked at in conj unction; that the mix of who is employed; whether or not there is affir mative action programs for the trad itionally disadvan taged; the qual ity of the work life; the wage rates ; the health in the work place; those types of issues, although we are not the lead department in those factors, we nonetheless take them into account in eval uating opportunities.

We see, therefore, that the capacity of the strateg ic plan ner, a person has to be able to see how these two types of objectives inter-relate and how they can be combined in an evaluation. MR. JOHNSTO N: Well, wouldn't the evaluation of an industry that is being looked at in Man itoba, or Mani toba look ing to have a specific industry in Manito ba, take into effect the sala ries, working conditions, clean industry, all of that? I assume that all would be done with regular course. I was just having trouble with the extension of social planning that the Minister menti oned.

I would be very surprised if Strateg ic Plan ning or social planning or anybody that made represe nta tion to a Minister that didn't have all of the details as to whether the business was a good one for Man itoba from a corpor ate point of view, salaries, environ ment and every thing wouldn't be there. So, I really can assume that the Strategic Plan ning is basically as it was structured and will be doing the same thing. MRS. SMITH: Well, Mr . Chairperson, if that's the case, well and good. We just didn't want to leave it chance and didn't see any problem with specifying it clearly and upfront. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.( a) (1 )-pass; 2.( a) (2). The Member for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. JOHNSTO N: In the Technology

section that remains at five people, the Di rector who is also the Director of The Man itoba Research Council, we'd had what we cal led product development engine ers involv ed in that department before which wer e assigned to the Winnipeg In dustrial Technology Cen tre. Has that remained the same? MRS. SMITH: Well, Mr . Chairperso n, the program is vir tually the same, yes. MR. JOH NSTO N: Is the department still making a grant to the Electronics Technology Centr e that Dr. Kismer operates at the Univ ersity of Man itoba? MRS. SMIT H: Mr.

Chairperson, yes, there is a $50 ,000 grant but it doesn't appear in this part of the budget. Ther e is still a grant being given to that activity. MR. JOHNSTO N: Well, I won't dwell on it anywher e else in the budget if the Minister could tell me why it is down to $50, 000. I think we've had a grant of $3 00,000 a year for two years or th ree years. 1610 MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, there was a three part grant, if it can be clear which one we're discuss ing.

The three-part grant to the Faculty of Engi neer ing started in second year '81 and this will complete the grant, total $2, 11 2,4 00 and that was a one-time grant of assistance to the faculty to assist them to measure up to the accr editation standards. The future of that grant is under negotiation with the Un iversity and with the Depar tment of Education. MR. JOH NSTON: Well, I'm aware that the $1 million is the final part of a three-stage grant that went to the

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 Un iversity Engineeri ng Depar tment. I guess I can wait. It probably comes up under Manit oba Re searc h Council. Ther e was a grant of $300, 000 a year to the Electronics Centr e. Ther e's a board set up for the Electronic Centr e etc. They have their own income. MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chai rperso n, the Microelec tronic Centr e which the member is referri ng to is not the one that appears here under Technology Cent re. It does appear under the Enterprise Manitoba accounts and ther e was the $300,000, three-year total. The last payment of $50, 000 is to be made in the '82-83 period. MR.

JOH NSTON: Has there been any approach made from the Un iversit y as to conti nuation of some funds from the Depar tment of Economic Deve lopment or the govern ment, to be made to the Engineering Fa culty so that they can continu e their work with industry in the prov ince? MRS. SMIT H: Mr. Chai rperson, the Ministers of Edu cation, Agr iculture and myself have gone individually to speak with the Univ ersity people and have also indicated to them that we wanted to co-ordinate any grants to the Univ ersity.

Since we were tied in to the current pattern for this year, we have until next year to work out what a next step will be. As the member well kn ows, we feel some reluctance to go with oper ating grants to the Univ ersity through separ ate depart ments. We'd rather co-ordinate all the operating grants through the Depar tment of Education, and if there is to be some other relationship of grants to the Univ ersity for applied technology or something that fits more tightly into In dustrial Dev elopment then we could consider it.

We are intending to broaden the role of the Re searc h Council and draw in representa tives of the Univ ersity, industry, govern ment and labour and see if we can get a clearer agreement on the specific roles in promoting science and technol ogy to be carried out by each of the groups. We do recog nize the va lue of the work done at the Univ ersity in the full range of engineering and the computer departments and so on. That's where the talent and innovativ e people are developed that have so much to contrib ute to our future industrial devel opment here in the provinc e.

So, we do realize it's in our interests to work out an appr opria te system so that those people can move smoothly from their educational stage through the resea rch stage into applying their skills and kno wledge to industrial development here in Man itoba. MR. JOH NSTO N: Tra ditionally, the Depar tment of Agriculture has supported the Fa culty of Agriculture in the Provinc e of Manitoba. I, qu ite fran kly, would have lik ed to have had the money go through the group that handles the money for the Univ ersity. But, I couldn't get any satisfactory answer that the money would go to the Engi neeri ng Depar tment.

Quite fr ankly, the Engi neeri ng Depar tment was ver y close to losing accreditation in the Provinc e of Manitoba because of lack of funds, and the Univ ersity wasn't able to increase them to the extent that would be req uired. Ther e is a very great importance for the Un iversity to be wor king with industry in the Province of Manit oba and all you have to do is look at where 16 11 there's any base of industry within any provinc e, state or countr y.

You will find that it's developed ar ound an exceptionally good university that has the capacity to work with industry and also give their kno wledge and brains, as the Min ister says, to the extension and the business usually likes to come in and have the kno wl edge that there is a university, an Engi neeri ng Depar tment that is going to be wor king directly with them.

If there is no way that you can get a guarantee that money is going to the Engineeri ng Depar tment - I guess I could ask the Minister if she would insist - but I think that you should insist because if it gets in that mix out there at the Univ ersity which I think per sonally is a dog's breakf ast at times, I would suggest that you make a ver y strong effo rt that it get to the Engi neeri ng Fa culty where it can be used to the benefit of Man itobans or the use that it was meant for.

I hope that some continuation will carr y on because we've had a good star t there bringing the Univ ersity into the business sector of the province and I wouldn't like to see it end. MRS. SM ITH: Well, Mr. Chai rperson, I couldn't agree more that we want to promote the co-operation between the Un iversity and business ourselves and, as I said before, the employees, the people who will be working in all of these organiz ations.

I submit I believe in the co-operation but I believe we can't all do one another 's work and the question, therefore, is setting up a form where we can identify the range of things that need to be done and come to some clear agree ment as to who does which. I'm a little appal led at the idea of appr oaching the Univ ersity in a co-operative spirit, meanwhile think ing under my breat h that what they'r e doing out there is a dog's breakfast.

Fr ankly, I'm more interested in appr oaching their funding and their development problems with an open ear and considerable sym pathy to the kind of problems they have encounter ed with rapid growth in some faculties at a time when over all funding has been taperi ng off, indeed fac ing qu ite a reduction from the federal level. So I fav our the co-operative spirit. I would lik e to urge and I have urged the Un iversity to be strong in its protection of some funds, where it can do basic resear ch.

Basic research is not something that govern ment or industry has a direct interest in, but I think we would all be the poorer in the long run if there wasn't an organiz ation around that was doing some of that. Now, it may be that the universities themselves, both in Man itoba and in the Western provin ces, indeed acr oss the country, are no longer going to be able to afford the luxury of every university doing research in every field.

They may have to specialize somewhat more to make the best use of what is admit tedly - if not a shr inkin g pie, a stabilizing size of economic pie - and that through thoughtful negotia tion, that can be worked out. I think the task we have is to work with the university, industry, ourselves and our funding methods and work out some kind of a plan. I agree that probably the problem you were faced with, with the Engi neeri ng Fac ulty being in a bit of an emergency state and not being able to work through the red tape which exists at the Univ ersity the same way it does here, that probably the form of grant you

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 gave was wise in the circumstances. We will be doing our best to plan what's the best way to fund in the future but I assure you that any negotiations we have ar e going to be carried out with a great deal of mutual respect and cert ainly a co operative endeavo ur. We want to ensur e, I think, any funding that comes from us is at the appl ied end of resea rch. We see that as our, at this point in time, as our prime responsibil ity.

We Want to get the fine new theories and techno logical discoveries into the form where they can actu ally be applied in a production situation and that will be end of the resea rch spectru m, if you like, that I think will be our funding. At least, that would be my feeling at this point in time, tha t would be our prime area of responsibility. But we have yet to work out that plan. MR. JOHNSTO N: Well, all I can say is that I hope the Minister works on it and gets it to a satisfactory situa tion.

I may have been a little strong using the word, "dog breakf ast." but I couldn't find any way to make sure that was going to the Engin eering Fa culty. I think it's very important that it does. I don't kn ow if the resea rch that the Min ister is talking about, but I hope she isn't saying the money would all be used in the form of inventi ng things; that is being done in the electronic centr e in many cases. But the assistance to industry when they come across technical difficulties, the Engi neeri ng Depar tment of the Univ ersity can be of tremendous benefit to them. MRS.

SMITH: Well, I really have nothing new to say, Mr. Chai rperson. I can assure you of my interest in the engineering field and my commitment to the va lue of industrial and computer techno logies and their rele vance to the development of our industry. I make that commitment very very sincerely and strongly and I'll certa inly be doing my best to work out the best possi ble way of funding. I see my col league, the Minister of Education. is here and she and I are in regular com munication on this problem and we'r e going to come up with the solution that meets the criteria that our colle agues in Cabi net set.

We're very very sympa thetic to the Univ ersity and supportive. We see it as a vital institution, all components of it. The Business Admin course, that's ano ther fac ulty that fee ls they've been very underfunded under the current method of allo cating funds at the Univ ersity. They've undergone great expansion of student popu lation without the par allel - that they feel any way - the paral lel devel opment in teaching materials, space and special eq uipment.

I think they are also develop ing the kind of entrepr eneurial mana gement skills that we recog nize as highly important to the future development of Man itoba. So I assure you that they' re going to get a very sympathetic ear from us, but the que stion of how we best divide the limited reso urces is something that's going to take a lot of rigorous analy sis, careful plannin g and I commit us to doing that. MR. CHAI RMAN: 2. (a)(2) -pass; 2. (a) (3) . The Member for St urgeon Cr eek. MR. JOHNSTO N: I kno w the position of the Mani- toba Design Ins titute.

Can the Min ister tel l us who the mem bers of that board are at the present time, the Chair man and the Boar d ? MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chairperson, I can give you the names of the new people we have assigned, but I don't think I could recall all the existing members. Perhap s the Dep uty will assist me here. The new people, we've assigned our Deputy to replace Mr . Ia n Bl icq who has served very faithfully for many years. We have added Astrid Dispeau, who is a young Native artist; Ron Patrick who is an interior designer. I'll bring those names for the member tomorrow. MR. CHAI RMAN: 2. (a) (3) -pass; 2. (a) (4) .

The Member for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. JOHNSTO N: I notice there's a reduction of two in this department and it was always being considered that the Depar tment of Labour should probably be the department that handles this particular job, there was always discussion as to which department it should be in. Is the Depar tment basical ly going to be cal ling on industry to assist them with - well as it says, the management of personnel, etc. and helping them to over come problems is the reason for the reduction that the Depar tment of Labour is tak ing over more of it? MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr.

Chai rper son, there were two people tra nsferr ed out between the printed vote and our Estimates to the Regional Bene fits Gr oup so the reduction in numbers had already occurred. The task orig inally was not too clearly identified although it was an important ar ea of the Human Reso urce devel opment. Ther e are three departments involved in this Human Resou rce development: Education deals with primary the institutionally based programs; Labour and Man power with a lot of the other training pro gr ams, and then we had resp onsibil ity for the industry-based programs.

In creasingly these func tions will be under the Labour, Man power and Educa tion Departments and we will be work ing with them to see if there remains a special function for our depart ment or not. But the current conditions seem to war rant a tightening here, until the strengthening of the Labour-Manpower function under Labour had done some further pl anning. MR. JOH NSTO N: Is this department still working with the Canad ian Manufacturers' Association and with the Ho tel Association on the programs that were being deve loped for encouraging young people to become involv ed in industry?

I believe the Minister kn ows of the brochures that are avai lable on this. 1612 MRS. SM ITH: Yes, Mr . Chairperson, the work is con tinuing with those and even if the functions of this

section change we will ensure that that particualar liaison function or co-operative function will not dis appear. We'll ensure that it is done. MR. JOH NSTON: That's fine.

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. DOWNEY: Mr . Chai rman, the Human Re source Management or if I'm correct this would be the human development or resource management, increasing the ability of people to service the tourist industry, the hotel-motel trade and tha t type of thing, is that correct? MR. SMITH: Mr . Chai rper son, the focus was more on the industrial trai ning but the other is one component. More of that took place in the Tourism

section so that the main focus of this group was with industrial training. MR. DOWNEY: I may be asking the question in the wrong place, I had an opportunity on the weekend to discuss with a motel owner , an individual who finds it somewhat difficult to be able to attain or to hire indi viduals who are trained in the specific servi cing of people to the type of req uirement that is, I would suppose, the way it was put -to meet the kind of demand that the public want when it comes to servic ing the motel industry.

If I am asking this in the wrong place, then I'll wait and ask it at another time, maybe the Minister could comment. Ha s she been directly in con tact with the motel-hotel industry to see if they do have some input into the over all development of these ki nds of service people? The concern that this indi vidual had specifically, was that it was being left pretty much to trade schools or school trai ning rather than to have invol ved the industry themselv es to get their specific inputs and the ki nds of trai ning that they felt were important.

The question really is, has she been in contact, or would she get in contact with the industry and ask for their input on developme nt of resource programs? MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chair person, probably this is more appropria tely dealt with under Tr avel Man itoba, but I have no objection to answering the que stion now. Approxi mately $60, 000 was spent last year on tr aining in the hospitality area. We are in touch with the hotel people.

I am sure that this is an emerging field in terms of numbers of jobs and the kinds of specialties that are developing and therefore the kind of trai ning needs that are developi ng. Ther e is a ver y fine progr am out at Red River Co mmunity Colle ge which is not specifical ly our responsi bility but it is a co-operative program between the Hotel Association and the Colle ge, where students spend part of their time at the Col lege and part of the time placed on the job getting specific trai ning and it's a highly sought after program. It 's a two-year program and ver y high prestige among students.

I' ve been invol ved with counselling several who wanted to get into it and they fo und it difficult to get in but I kn ow felt ver y rewarded by the program. I think that in the future, this is an area of trai ning we should take seriously. When in Montr eal a month and-a-half ago at the Canad ian Tourism meetings I had an opportunity to tour the training program run by the tourism industry in Quebec.

It 's ac tually run, not by the education people, but by the Tourism Depar tment and they run an entire hotel and a serie s of restaur ants whereby they give ver y effect ive, on- the-job-type trai ning in the whole range of skills requir ed in the hospitality industry. I think that's probably a little beyond what our ambitions would be at this point in time but I think there are components of a program like that that we can develop. MR. DOWNEY: Mr .

Chai rman, through you to the Minister, the basic concern was that the individual who is involved in this par ticular business felt tha t they had some particular input that they would like to put into the development of these types of personnel. They felt with the over all system that was avai lable, that just to do it at the Colle ge or to not involv e the trade was not in the best interests of development of those individuals, and as I understa nd the Min ister in her comments, she think s there is room to expand and move in that direction.

I would hope that she would contact and work out with the hotel-motel people on-job trai ning, that type of work that would have input from those owner s of facilities so that we can hit the tar gets with trainin g that is needed for the service industry. That's the only comments that I have, Mr. Cha irman. MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chai rperso n, there are funds av ail able under our Tr avel Man itoba program where that can be developed and I would think that in our grants to tourism organiza tions that this would be one type of project that I think we could consider being a high prior ity item for support.

I do have the names of the Design In stitute here if it would be appr opriate to give them. We replaced 4 out of 12 , I'll ident ify the new names when I come to them. The Chairperson continues to be lain Campbel l; Donna Mallon is Vice-Chair; Mr . Enns is Dir ector; Allen Finnb ogaso n, R. King, Carl Joh nson, Dave Cannell and new members, Astrid Dis browe, Ron Patrick, Pau l Zaidman, Rober t Tho mpson and existing member, E. Lawlor. Also, the 19 81 grant to the Hotel Association, spe cifically for hospitality trai ning, I had said it was about $60,000, it's in fact, $65,000.00. 16 13 MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (a) (4) .

The Member for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. JOH NSTO N: Un der the Hu man Resou rce Dev elopment, is this the area of the Department of Economic Dev elopment that works with Labour and Man power and, I believe, Education on the program of having the industry come in and identify the jo bs and positions that are available in industry to students and students can come forward and ask what job s are av ailable, what the future is within the diffe rent industries? MRS. SMIT H: Mr .

Chai rperso n, a service such as that might well be a needed service but so far, apar t from what the employment centres provide, our main con tribution here has been to either Car eer Days in the schools or in the Career Symposium. You may have been aware that an enormously successful Car eer Symposium was held this year in the Convention Cen tre. I think it was in Februar y, and I think th ey had 35,0 00 young people and adults, in the even ing hours, go through the displays and it seemed to be a val uable

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 way, reqlly, if a one day can accomplish anyth ing, to dramaiize the range of jobs av aila ble. I would say that the ind.ustrial displays, displays of industrial-type jobs, were particularly attract ive to people because there was eq uipment there where young people could get a hands-on exposure to some of the eq uipment and it was excellent display material .

I say it's not a sufficient way to reach out to young people but it's certainly a val uable component and I'm sure that we will be look ing to see that imaginative outreach to young people continues to occur, whether it's under this program or an associated one. MR. JOHNS TON: Well, it's the Car eer Symposium I was referri ng to and this department is a department that used to represent the Depar tment of Economic Dev elopment with other departments in the co ordination of that and I was just ask ing. is this still part of the duties of this department? MRS. SMITH: Yes it is. MR.

CHAI RMAN: 2. (a) (4) -pass; 2.(b )(1). The Member for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. JOH NSTON: Mr. Chairman, this appears to be a small change. In dustry Tr ade and Dev elopme nt. and it provides planning and direction to industry in trade development. Prov ides plan ning and direction in industry for trade development, is that a better word for it? I wonder if the Min ister cou ld outline just what this particular group will be doing. MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr . Chai rperson. We've struc tured the Ind ustry Dev elopment and Tr ade Deve lop ment in one

section with an ADM responsible. The industry devel opment portion is set out under six prior ity areas and the responsibility of the specialists in these areas is to keep in touch with the industry as it exists here in the provi nce in those sector s to see if they're encountering difficulties or if they'r e consider ing expansions, modernizations: and also to conduct outreach to potential investor s in those prior ity sec tors.

The trade group carr y out that side of the manu facturing process where new trade opportunities are sought and the ability of our local businesses to find new markets, to develop their marke ting skil ls, and to reach out to fres h opportunities is developed. MR. JOHNSTON: Is this where the sourcing program would come under? MRS. SMITH: That comes under Regional Bene fits, Mr . Chair person, which is 2.(b) (3) . MR. JOHNS TON: Would this be the area that, when we talk about In dustry and Trade Dev elopment, the devel opment of the Aerospace industry, the devel opment of the garment industry, etc. MRS.

SMITH: Yes, Mr . Chai rperso n. MR. JOHNSTO N: Mr . Chairman, ther e is a ver y great need for industry devel opment in the aerospace industry in the Pro vince of Man itoba. As we kno w, it's 1 O percent, or close to 1 O percent of the industry in Canada and certainly we did not rece ive as much of the fighter aircraft as we would have lik ed; but we still have a very good chance, I believe, of getting the support of that new aircraft in Manit oba, the support of the aircr aft reg arding the frame and the support of the 404 Gen eral Electric engine which is in the air craft .

We have the facility in Man itoba with Bris tol, who has been the support of the frame on the Voodoo, but we have not had the support of the engine in the military aircraft; it's been down in Ontario. Ther e is an extensiv e drive, I guess you'd call it, by the aeros pace industry in Man itoba and certainly one of the compan ies in Manit oba, to put themselv es in a position of being able to be the support or overh aul of that engine for the F18 and the work could be done in Man itoba. Ther e was a co-ordination between that company and the Pro vincial Go vern ment.

Ther e was no fund ing of any kind except for a study done under Enter prise Man itoba regarding the feasibility of the expan sion of engine overhau l in the provinc e. I imagine that study has been done, and is there still a co-ordinated effo rt being put forwar d by the govern ment and the aerospace industry, and the one company in particu lar, to convi nce the Federal Go vern ment, or let's say the Depar tment of Defense, that we'r e capable of doing it in Man itoba and that we will have the oppor tunity to quote on it. MRS. SMITH: Mr .

Chai rperson, there are high prior ity programs moving along in the aerospace field. Ther e's a feasibility study with Br istol exam ining the life cycle of the new aircr aft; there's a feasibility study with Standar d Aero looking at the GE 404 engi ne; look ing into the helicopter blade repa ir area and the possibility of a helicopter plant being located here is being followed up. MR. JOHNS TON: Not helicopters again. 1614 MRS. SMITH: They can't really fly you kno w. MR.

JOH NSTON: Well, I would sincerely hope that the Minister has found that the talk of the lawyer in Winnipeg that the specific helicopter that got all the news was just exact ly that, tal k, after a lot of work had been done by the department. I would only ask on that one that the company was being asked to present a marke ting program that would have to be given to the Federal Govern ment before they'd even look at it and we weren't going to look at it if they didn't look at it. I'm just wonderi ng if they have presented anything to the Federal Govern ment as yet. They promised it two year s ago.

MRS. l)IV!ITH: Wei!. M.r. Chairper son, they are several helicopter compan ies that we're deal ing with. I think I can guess at the one that the honourable member is referri ng to but it wouldn't be appropriate to name any names here. I don't kno w what they have done with regard to the Federal Go vernment but, believe me we are encour aging these companies to make a tho ro ugh assess ment of the factors here that are impor tant to them and as the member well kno ws these periods of explor ation go on for some time. But I can assure him that we are playing a co-operative role.

I think I'd finished what I had to say on that matter.

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 MR. JOH NSTO N: There was a large aircraft com pany looking at making a small airplane in Gimli and I'm not going to mention names either because I don't kn ow that it's -(I nterjec tion)- all right. Sicotte, cer tainly Sicotte wholly owned subsidiary of Air France and the company has had studies done with us. We've had people over to visit them in France. They've had their exec utives in Man itoba. They've looked over the facil ity of Gimli. It was not going to be the biggest in the world but they would have a small start that could lead into something better.

I'm wonderi ng if that is still a possibility. MRS. SMITH: II n'ya pas de developpement nouvelle a reporter, monsieur. mais nous dix coutons en cour avec cette companie. We're still negotiating with that company but there really are no new developments. MR. JOH NSTO N: I wouldn't have pressed it if you hadn't had the help from the other side. Madam Minis ter. Well. it's pretty obvious. Mr. Chair man. tha t the fellows on the other side have not learned that there is confi dentiality when gove rnment is wor king with people and it's not desirable to bring it out if you don't have to.

Sometimes it could harm Man itoba. . Mr . Chairman. could I ask the Min ister if the work that is being done by Sperr y Un ivac - they're one of the two compan ies that are going to have the oppor tunity to quote on the technical work and the compu ter work on the Friga te Program for the Federal Go v ernment -t hat was in it's very early stages and I know Sperry Univ ac were putting together their presenta tion to the Federal Go vern ment. If they were the suc cessful people, the Sperry Univ ac Plant in the Prov ince of Manitoba would receive a considerable amount of work from it.

Is that still moving forward at the present time? MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chai rper son. that possibility is still alive and warm. MR. JOH NSTON: Well. on the wor king with the Fed eral Go vern ment on the Defe nce Program. has the Min ister had any contact with the Min ister of In dustry and Com merce in Ottawa or when in Man itoba when she's been able to present our conc erns that Mani toba did not get as much of the F-18 as we would have liked and that we would certai nly be look ing for ward to the support of the F-18 and as much of the Fri gate Program as possible?

I just wonder if the Min ister has had the oppor tunity to have those discussions with the Federal Minister. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chair person. we've met personall y with the Honour able Mr. Gr ey. the Honour able Mr . Lapoi nte. the Honour able Mr . Ols en and the Honour able Mr . Lum ley and you may rest assured that with each one. even if it wasn't strictly in their area. we've raised that issue and demonstrated our interest in having some of that program come here to Man itoba. MR. JOH NSTON: H as the department identified any further new industries?

There was a specific identifi cation of industries in the transporta tion, in the health fields. in the agricultur al industry, mainly in the food processing industry and wer e identified as industries 1615 that would be suitable for the Prov ince of Man itoba because they would fit with our provinc e. Are those same categories being worked on at the present time? Have there been any new ones added? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rper son, those remain the priority sectors for our department outreac h. We're also taking some interest in carr ying some responsi bility in the resource industries as well. MR.

JOH NSTON: Resp onsi bility in the resource industries. is it the responsibility of the depar tment to make the decision, or advise. or on whether the gov ern ment should go into ManO il or not? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rper son, from one of the two clones, it's catching. We have an an alytical role in relation to some of the opportunities in the resource field but we're also always interested in the process ing opportunities that may be associated with the basic resource industry. To that extent there is a co operative approach to some of the studies. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman. I understand this would be the area in which we could discuss the trade office that has been established in Mexico and the efforts that have been put forward by the Depar tment of Economic Dev elopment to en hance the trade oppor tunities in Mexico and other countrie s. Is that office still operating. Mr. Chairman? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperso n. it was closed last Ju ne. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister has indi cated that it's been closed. What particular plans do you have as Minister to spend the $1 1 4, 000 - 1 guess it's $1 1 4, 000 total - in that appropria tion?

What is your major thrust in that ar ea and wha t area of industry? MRS. SMITH: Excuse me. you jumped to the next component. Yes, we're participating in the usual mix of ex hibi tions that deal with our par ticular prior ity areas of inter est.

Ther e's a Western Cana da Of fice Exh ibition in Calgar y in Apri l; an Agri-component Exposition in Kan sas in May; a Vancouver Furnitur e Show in Sep tember; ther e's 15 to 20 solo trade shows throughout the year in Canada and the Un ited States; the Educa tional In stitutional Op portunity Show here in Win nipeg in September, cost-shared with other provi n ces; Northern Farm Show in Min neapolis in Janua ry, 19 83; the Prairie Im plement Man ufacturing Associa tion Conv ention, Winnipeg, February, 19 83; Ag-Expo in Lethbridge in Ma rch, 19 83; Farm Contr ex '83, Regi na and a seminar in electrical and ele ctronics in the U.S.

Midwest in Novem ber of this year, plus a sales mission to Minneapo lis in June of this year. MR. DOWNEY: So really what it is, it's a matter of supporting the private sector as mainly from what I' ve heard, mainly to demonstrate or to show the type of industrial manufacturing that is taken in over the agri-

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 cultural manufacturing of industry eq uipment at dif ferent trade shows throughout the country; through out the Un ited States, basically is wha t the major thrust of this will be. Am I understanding that corr ectly? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rper son, yes, but if opportuni ties emerge during the year to include public sector manufacturing components, or at least products, they would naturally be included. MR. DOWNEY: Could she give me some examples what public sector manufacturing she's referri ng to? MRS.

SMITH: Well, there ar e some components from the telephone group and potentially from Man For. This is not curren tly our primar y responsibility but it could be worked in over time. MR. DOWNEY: That's okay on this side of the Hous e. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Robli n-Russell. MR, WALLY McKENZIE (Ro blin-R ussell): Thank you, Mr . Chairman. I wonder could the Min ister advise the Comm ittee what kind of informa tion she and her staff are sending out to Ind ustry and Trade Deve lopment in the provi nce today to prov ide them with planning and direction which we'r e expe nding these dollar s for?

Would you tell them to cut down their overhead costs, fight infla tion, tighten up your inventor y? What kind of directives ar e you sen ding out to the industry today? MRS. SMITH: Yes, that's the type of advice that's given on a consultant basis where someone would go and help a business analy ze their particular situation; in other words their particular mix of costs, the scale of their operation, the amount of inventory they'r e carr ying, their marketi ng plans and look to get the best balance. I guess the well-managed company may surviv e the difficulties.

In creasingly, of course, we're encou nteri ng com panies that are having diff iculties not because of any fault or poor management on their part but because of the macro-econom ic effects that we hear about ever y day, the tight money and the high inter est and so on.

We have, I guess in con nection with this and in response to the growing number of bankru ptcies and people out of work, just initiated a program which really what we've done is assigned some of our exist ing staff to be alert to businesses in difficulty and see if they can by offeri ng a bit of adver tising, make kn own the services that they can give a company when it's experie ncing difficulty.

Then should the worst come to worse and they get to the point of consider ing bankru ptcy, to be willing to act as a mediator; help with the refinancing if that is possible and if worst comes to worse assist employees with dealing with their situation and improving their chance of seeking out other employment. But the success of such a ventu re is not lik ely to be spectac ular but we felt that the onus was on us to do what we could in the worsening economic times.

It will also give us up-to-date informa tion on the factor s that are leading to bankruptcies so that if ther e are provi ncial solutions to these problems, we'll be more lik ely to target some kind of assistance. But, we're quite frank in admitting that the macro-economic policies being followed elsewhere, the sort of extent of their impact is qu ite beyond the power of a provin cial authority to do more than just mitigate. We re ally can't set them into reverse. MR. McKENZI E: I wonder , Mr .

Chair man, if the Minis ter or her department are sending out copies of the election promises that were made to industry in this province? May I ask another question and this, of course, rel ates to businesses that are already closed. Let's relate to the Manco problem. Wha t kind of memos has her department sent out to the Manco plants at Ros sburn and Pilot Mound who are closed today? Ha ve you told them there's any future for the dairy industry of this prov ince? Ha ve you suggested to them you have a market for their cheese?

Have you sent any communication of any kind because I did put a question on the Order Paper today to try and direct those people tha t plants are closed, they'r e unem ployed and I'm wonderi ng if In dustry and Tr ade Dev elopment has any hope for those two plants? MRS. SM ITH: Yes, in fact we did file our return to that que stion today but I think that two of the three departments had their answer and the other didn't. We were in fact not approached by Manco though. We did have phone communication. The co-op development was tak ing the lead with that group.

We have today though had contact with the employee group and are look ing into it. MR. McKENZIE: Mr . Chair man, that concerns me, especially when all the promises . . . Let's take a look at the fo restry industry. What kind of directives ar e you and your department sending out to the fo restry industry in my constituency? Let's say Rob lin For est Products and industry, have been thriving for decades, now it's almost shut down to nil operation.

What kind of directives - is there any hopes for those people that are sitting there and waiting to go back to work or is that industry being told the future looks dim, it doesn't look good at all? What is going out? 1616 MRS. SMITH: Ther e is a joint study going on with Countertech on the feasibility of using poplar pulp which I gather is abundant in that area for ethanol. MR. McKENZIE: This is lumber I'm talking about. MRS. SMITH: Well, I suppose the future of the lumber industry will depend on the construction industry moving again.

Now provincially we're increasing our capital construc tion beyond the levels that they were at before. The holding back on the construction of housing has been a result of an abdication, in my opinion, by the Federal Go vern ment of any res ponsi bility in that field. The policies that they've applied to the housing sector have really allowed that industry almost to die. As I say, we're committed to doing what's within prov incial range of options. I think the future for the for est industry, we're going to have to be much more strateg ic in our mar keting.

How much lumber can reasonably be absorbed in the housing

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 industry of the future? To what extent are we going to have to conver t our forest industry into producing what the market does call for? We've also put in for a very extensiv e study on the Man For facility to see if there is a product that can be developed there that will meet the market needs of the future. These are long-term change s; they're costly conver sions. but we're committed to doing the pru dent, the car eful and the far sighted thing with regar d to those industries. MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr .

Chairman, to the Minister, the pulp industry hasn't complained to me, as I sit here ton ight, they're still cutting reaso nable amounts of pulp and it's being transpor ted to the market, but the problem is in the lumbering industry. I'm wonderi ng, will the Minister screw up her cour age and tell Robl in For est Prod ucts tool up, the first of Ju ne we're going to build 10 ,0 00 houses in this pro vi nce. Ha s she met with the federal counterparts?

Ha ve you agreed that we're going to go and start to build 20, 000 homes and say, boys get back to work June lst. this program is going to be on the rails and we're going to build some houses in this provi nce or has that not gone out yet? MRS. SMITH: I think the member, unless he didn't ever qu ite understand what was going on in his own govern ment's budget, rea lizes that to do that as a provi nce, unilaterally, without a Federal Govern ment behind you to assist with mortgage monies, is an enormous Capital expenditure.

It doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, but I think the pace at which we can responsibly move into housing without federal support for mortgage monies is slow; it's not going to be on the scale that we would lik e it. Now we've been doing our lobbying to change the Federal Govern ment's approach, but they'r e caught up in a react ion to the recess ion/depression that we find ourselves in by cutting way back on the housing; they said it's a fr ill.

Now our Party has been loud and out front at the federal level, as well as at the provincial, saying hous ing is a social right and should be or gan ized so that the public funding of mortgages and construction should be such that the need is met, that the total industry and people's needs are put together and a steady building program is going on.

But as I' ve said on many occasi ons, we are not the Federal Go vern ment, we cannot spring loose funds of that order, we canno t change their priorities -at least in the shortrun we haven't been able to -and, ther e fore, the realm of choice we have here in the provi nce is narrower. Now we are goi ng to step up provinc ial construction rates. but it's not going to be the magic or immediate cure. We don't have that capacity; we' re doing what we feel we reasonably can .

When the question of how much the public should spend and how much Capital investment there should be comes to the fore I expe ct that the member will reca ll his urging us to move holus-bolus into rapid building of houses. I wish we could find a way that wouldn't build up such an unacceptable level of deficit that we would be jeopar dizing the long-term future. I sympathize with the frustr ation. I think one of the problems that's surfacing now is that people in indus tr ies have sort of trusted that it would all work out somehow but they haven't questioned why it didn't.

What is it in the system that's causing this kind of extr eme dislocation? Wha t are the cures? I submit that a more interve ntionist and planning approach by both Federal and Provincial Gove rnment are neces sary compone nts to the answer, but at the provi ncial level we canno t do the whole thing as well as we would lik e. MR. McKENZIE: We' re back to sq uare one, Mr . Chairman. We didn't make those kind of promises the last election; you did and now you can't deliv er it.

So I'll go back and tell Robl in Fo rest Products to put their tools away and, as I gather from this Comm ittee, there's not much hope for their industry coming back on stream this year, that while they'll maybe sell a few board feet -and that's only one of the ... May I ask the Minister on, like gasohols, a classic example -I' ve burnt the fuel in my car, it works well - are you intending to expand that industry in our prov ince? MRS. SMITH: Yes. MR. McKENZIE: Can you tell me where and when? MRS. SMITH: No. The feasibility studies are being done on that issue right now, it looks ver y promising.

The member must realize that these changes in an economy are not accomplished overn ight. It took a long time for the thing to get where it's at and we canno t, overn ight, restore the housing industry to its former level of activity. Ther e were year s when very little was put into that industry and I wish we had inherited a much more vi brant and active industry in the provinc e, but we haven't. Ther e's no sense crying over spilt milk. We have to pick up where we'r e at and build as responsibly and strongly as we can. I don't reca ll promising overnight mirac les.

I remember promising a slow, steady, consultative appr oac h and a building on a different set of princi ples and tha t is what we'r e engaged in doing. MR. McKENZIE: Can I ask the Minister, it's at the fea sibility stage, do I understand it, now? Why can' t you use the feasibility study that's already in place? The Min nedosa plant has proved , beyond all shadow of doubt, it's an excellent operation, the product is excel lent; I use it in my car; excel lent perf ormanc e. Jus t pattern it on that and start building them because the raw product is all over this provi nce, it's only a matter of moving ahead.

Energy costs being what it is today, and as long as the gove rnment is prepared to leave the taxes off, I suspect the day will come that we'll be utilizing more. May I ask her what studies or what the department has done utilizing the wood chips for alcohol and producing ·e nergy? 1617 MRS. SMITH: Well, I think the member has stumbled on the answer to the qu estion he posed. Why have we not gone for expanding the Minnedosa plant? Th ey are using barley and barley is a food which we think should be used, unless ther e's no other option, as a food. The program that we're supporting at present is

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 work ing with poplar pulp and the vir tue - I guess someone who's a little closer to the detail would have to tell me whether poplar pulp and wood chip, if we're referri ng to identical processes, but I suspect they'r e not too differ ent -the virtue of the poplar is that there's a great deal of it, that it can be grown in, what they call, a silva culture way where you let the young tree grow I'm not sure whether the first growth is a year or two - and then you cut it and it will repeat this rapid growth four or five times over before giving up the effort and you have to replant.

The feasibility study is wor king out the detail of the best method of growing and crop ping that product and also the most efficient way of conver ting it to ethynol. MR. McKENZIE: One last question, Mr. Chairman.

I wonder will the Min ister -she's now talking about the feasibility of utilizing that resource -will she give me the assurance, or the dairy industry, that her depar t ment will do a feasibility study on what's wrong with the cheese market in this provinc e and why can't we sell a food and, agai n, a food product, surplus good cheese, the best cheese I' ve ever tasted, out of these pl�nts and we can't sell it; they're closed up.

In the next year, would you assure me that your depar tment will take a look at that industry, and see where whoev er's gone wrong, I don't car e who it is, and see if they can't get it back on the rails again? MRS. SMITH: Mr .

Chai rper son, the retailing of food is not a matter that I' ve been spending much time on in this department, but in a previous activ ity of min e where we were look ing at the horizontal integration of the food business, we fo und that very often a local product, however good it might be, might not be able to get itself mark ets, beca use the food retailing in the provi nce is increasi ngly dominated by ver y few firms which take there basic products and their process products from their sources, which may in fact not only be out of the provi nce, but out of the country.

Because we've allo wed the whole food industry, if you lik e, to develop in this way, our capacity to break in for a particular product where we have a good-quality product is ofte n limited. I regret that I haven't person ally gone into this particular issue in greater detail. Well, it's an inherited problem -but I don't really cast blame on the previous govern ment for leaving it to us but I do serve notice that we'r e going to attempt to over come the problem -that there are many activities in the province that seem to relate to several depart ments or none.

Ther e are overlaps and gaps and that often produces a delay, a less than efficient response to particular problems. I kn ow that one of the diff icul ties we were encountering with the cheese group, or that one of my colle agues was tel ling me about, was that there wasn't a single message coming from them, there were several messages, and there seemed to be some disagreement at the local level. But I admit to not kn owing the detail on it and apar t from that gen l'!ral comment about the food reta il business, I really don't care to comment further. MR. McKENZIE: Mr .

Chairman, if the member hadn't put on the record this inherited problem, that would have been my last question. I can't accept that in any way shape or form. There's been govern ments corn- ing and going; I' ve sat here with five Premier s and I'm fed up with listen ing to Ministers of this government saying they inherited problems from the other govern ment. Historically, govern ments in the past, when they take office, that's their job to take over and I have in my time heard very few complaints until this govern ment took office, about the past.

May I ask her and her department; food , cheese, it's a surplus item in this provinc e; under Trade Dev elopment, will you look at it and take a study and see if you can't move some of the surplus cheese? Lik e the Min ister agrees, there's a lot of people hungry in this world tonight. We have a surplus product in this province; cheese, good cheese, and you mean to tell me you can't sell it. I don't buy that. MRS.

SM ITH: I respect the member for his willin g ness to speak from the heart about a local issue that is frustr ating, and I submit that the economic difficulties that are occurring all over this province are not only frustr ating, they'r e terrif ying, because in their cumul ative effect , we can find that not only in this prov ince but in this countr y, which probably has more plenty than vir tually any other country in the world, some how we haven't managed to organ ize our economic affa irs so that people can produce and distribute and consume in some kind of orderly way.

What I give my commitment to is building a more orderly process. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. DOWNEY: Mr . Chairman, it's been somewhat - I don't know just what words to use -but it's almost frig htening to hear the Minister of Economic Devel opment sit here and suggest that all those problems that we're now facing are unsolvable.

As we look back prior to the 17 th of Novem ber, there were certa in commitments made and promises made by the now Premier of the Pro vinc e that all these problems would not come about; that people cou ld be assured they wouldn't lose their businesses, homes or farms; that he was going to reverse the interest rate policies and that there would be no bankruptcies.

Now we've heard the Min ister say that there are interest rate problems that she can't do anyth ing about even though they do have an Int erest Rate Relie f Program, there's a growing number of bankruptcies, that she is now establishing a committee to try and assist those people who are being laid off or who are becoming unemployed. Where was she, Mr . Chairman, to the Minister, where was she when the Manco plants were closing several months ago?

I' ve asked the Minister of Agricultur e why they didn't develop a committee between Agricu lture, Economic Dev elopment and Co-operative Dev elopment to assist in those busi nesses that were having extreme difficulty, but only now is she saying that they should establish a com mittee to assist those people who are becoming unemployed. I have a direct question for the Min ister, Mr . Chair man: how many people have become unemployed in all segments of the industrial sector, whether it be in agr iculture, whether it be in mining, whether it be in cheese plants or food processing since the 17 th of Novem ber?

I would suggest that it's staggering, the 1618

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 number of people tha t have become unemployed; those very people that they committed to, not to hav ing a govern ment that would not allow their job s to be lost. She's done absolutely nothing, Mr. Chairman, but now try and do some fed-bashing and say that if they had a diffe rent housing policy every thing would be ok ay as far as the wood industry is concerned. I would say, Mr . Chairman, that she's admitting failure and that they've broken their election promises and can't, in fact, do any thing about it. Does she support as well, Mr.

Chair man, the move that was made by the Manco worker s at Pilot Mound to take 15 percent less for wages to keep that plant viable and operating? Does she not think it's time she made a reco mmendation to labour in this country that they back off and take some of the blows that the society is facing? Does she expe ct that the farm community who are now being asked to take less money for their milk to keep the cheese plant viable, or does she think that everybody in society should take just a little bit less to keep the whole system going? Apparently not, Mr .

Chairman, when she was a member of a Cabine t who raised the minimum wage to $4.0 0 an hour regard less of whether, in fact, there was anymor e productivity put into the system. I would think this Min ister of Economic Deve lop ment should come forwar d with some positive sug gestions other than just to blame the former adminis tration.

As well, for the Minister's informa tion, the gasohol program in this prov ince was started by eco nomic climate that was put in place by the last admin istration, removing the road tax so they could use barley, and for the Honour able Minister's informati on, I kno w she's concerned about using food and food products to produce alcohol. Mr .

Chai rman, through you to the Min ister, if she wants to look at some of the historical facts and figures in this country, in the 19 20s some 20 percent of North America was used to produce oats to produce horsepower, not unlik e what is being proposed with the production of alcohol to produce horsepower for tractors. So, I don't think it's a great sin to use fa rm-produced goods to encou rage price increases to add to the fuels that are to power the engines for producing a fuel. I think it's a good move to use agriculture commodities, barley, to encour age and en hance the incomes of the farmers.

We aren't in a starving situation; plus the fact, through you, Mr . Chair man, to the Minister, that the by product of the alcohol industry, the gasohol produc tion, can go into the food industry for beef cattle, hogs, to produce red meats. So, really we're only using the starches off the barley that are in surplus in the world today. We're not using the proteins. I think it would do her good to take a look at some of the facts and the way in which this province and this industry oper ates. As well, Mr. Chairman, I' ve asked the Minister sev eral questions.

What has she done, through her or her department, or through the Depar tment of Agricul ture or the Co-operative Dev elopment as a commit tee, to reco mmend to the Federal Gov ern ment that they restrict some of the imported cheese that's com ing into Canada? Un der the current trade negotia tions there is some 50 million pou nds of cheese allowed to come into Canada.

Has she made repres enta tion to the Federal Govern ment to suggest that they lower that particular number so that we could have viable cheese industries and plants in this pr o vince, all areas that should be addressed by her as Economic Devel opment Minister? I think we have a tremendous opportunity within the whole area of food processing and development of our expor t goods not oniy in agriculture machinery but also in the food industry. And I think they should work hand-in-glove with the Depar tment of Agriculture to enhanc e the processing and marke ting opportunities. But, Mr.

Chair man, again through you to the Min is ter, I think that her with her interest rate policies, in combination with the Min ister of Agr iculture, with the numbers of growing bankrup tcies, the numbers -the hundreds, the thousands of people that have lost their jobs since the 17 th of November is disgraceful, to say the least. That's being kind to a Min ister who went to the people saying that there wouldn't be anyb ody losing their jobs, homes or businesses. That was a commitment that was made, Mr.

Chairman, and I would hope the Minister would do a little bit more than blame the Federal Go vern ment policies on housing; to blame the Federal Govern ment's policies on the economic climate that is created. She's now saying we're in a recession, that we're in a depression. I think , Mr . Chairman, that it's time that the Pawley govern ment stood up and were counted on their election promises.

I think it's a disgrace that we've seen two cheese plants go broke under her direction; nothing done fo rt he employees, the dairy producers; nothing done to tell the Federal Gove rnment we should res trict the amount of cheese that's coming into this country under the current conditions. We would have done that, Mr . Chai rman, given the opportunity of having that kind of difficulty develop. I said in the Agricultural Estimates we put together, work towards the deve lopment of sales for that par ticular company's cheese. We're voting funds for a Min ister who is sitting here giving us a bunch of fluff, Mr .

Chairman, nothing more than a bunch of fl uff and I think it's disgusting. 1619 MRS. SM ITH: Mr. Chai rper son, I feel that somehow the member is making a good case for something that we've been tal king about for years and that's the need for some kind of orderly approach to production, marke ting, processing, distribution and also, let it be said, some sort of orderly approach to minimum wage so that the people who need.the cheese and the milk and so on have the money in their pockets to pur chase it.

I think our approach to the economy recog nizes that these balances between milk prices, cheese prices, the prices people have to pay, what organ iza tions ex ist to distribute cheese are issues that have to be looked at in a whole. There has to be someone or some group with the responsibility to balance out the respective needs of the producers, the processors, the distri butors and the consu mers. I submit, Mr . Chai rperson, that what we've had is an economy tha t did not have that sort of over all balanced appr oach either here at the provincial level or at the federal level.

Cons eq uently, what we've walked into is an eco nomy that's creaking and showing the res ults, if you lik e, of that kind of abdication from economic responsi bility at all levels. Now, I kn ow that the mem bers opposite bel ieve,

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 and I presume, sincerely, that there is some kind of balancing forces at work -at least I think that's what they believe - if govern ment perhaps didn't exist, if minimum wages weren't, and if we just left things to this sort of magical work ing out of untram melled market forces; if that's not what they believe, then I would lik e to hear what kind of public interve ntion or planning or balancing role they see.

We, quite frank ly, do believe in the planning and balancing role, but you do not balance out a multitude of factors overn ight when you've inherited a system that's buzzing along in a down hill route i n many cases with a lot of imbal ances in it. It takes time to work out the adj ustments; you have to make a choice as to which ones are the most important to deal with. We have chosen a stra tegy to deal on one side with emergency programs that help those that are most vul nerable in the diff icult times.

I submit that something like minimum wage, if you have ever tried to live on a minimum wage in our society, the increases we have made are not princely. Those people have to pay rent; the y have to buy food; they have to buy clothing. We're interested in a bal.ancing ... A MEMBER: But often they lose because they don't produce more for the person that's paying them. MRS. SMITH: . .. but you see, that's an assumption and I for one am not prepar ed just to take the face val ue ar guments on that.

I worked for years produc tively as many other women in our society have at home for no pay, and we were productive but we were productive in a way that the public accounts never measured. Now, there are other people who are work ing in the economy who, I think, by vir tue of being human beings who are work ing in an economic endeavo ur deserve for the hours of work they put in in a day, a decent wage so that they can have a fa ir shar e of the tota l society's goods.

And I don't believe that the kind of society I want to live in is one where those benefits are spread around on the basis in which the market fo rces distri bute them. I think that we have to intervene as a political group to remedy, first of all, the worst sufferi ngs, the worst inequ ities, then to move with our emergency progra ms and then to gradually put in place the structural change s which over time we think can keep more of the basic wealth and resource here in Man itoba, develop it better and dis tribute it better.

That's our intention .a nd we certainl y have never foo led one ano ther into thinking it's a quick and easy process; it is not. I submit that we are moving along the path car e fully; we ar e not flying off at tangents and tr ying to solve every problem that's beyond our means. We're being ver y realistic and carefu l and thoughtful, and we're look ing at how things con nect up, because what we want are healthy industries, healthy communities and if times are tought we want that the poorest , weak est members of the society don't go under.

We don't think they' re dispensable, we think they'r e important and have a right to be included and to be assisted to weather the storm. Because, believe me, when they fall way behind they'r e not giving up the luxuries like you and I might when our paycheque doesn't stretch so far. They'r e havi ng to give up ju st the basic necessities of nutritious food, and safe, let alone, pleasant and attract ive housing. Now, our kind of program can't be implemented overn ight. I submit that we'r e doing it in a responsible and caref ul plan ned way and we will conti nue to do just that. I move com mittee rise. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Committee rise SUPPLY - HEAL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Je rry T. Storie (Flin Flon): The Committee will come to order, conti nuing with the Health Estimates. The Honour able Member for For t Ga rry I believe has some comments to finish up. MR. LR. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Gar ry): Thank you, Mr . Chairman, I believe in keep ing with past practice and custom. I have a few moments left in which to conclude my response to the Minister's opening statement and appr eciate the oppor tunity just to make one or two points.

I was dealing at the time of the break for Private Members' Hour with the responsibility that I believe rests with Provincial Health Ministers to work together and help take the lead to improve the base for health care servi ces and health care service delivery in Can ada in the face of some considerable threats and some considerable danger s arising fr om, not only the inflexibility that has crept into the system in many ways but from the economic conditions that we face in the country. 16 20 I want to just refe r to one or two specifics as I conclude my remar ks.

I might say in doing so that I was very pleased to hear from the Minister with respect to his commitment to program expansions and reinforcements in the department and under the insured program spectrum of the Man itoba Health Servi ces Com mission. Cer tainly they appear promis ing and reassuring insofar as the stren gthening of health servi ces to Man itobans are concerned and I'll be inter ested in ex ploring the details with him as we get deeper into his Estimates.

I was also pleased to hear him express his commit ment to long-term planning and to budget increases in Com munity Health Services and to health educa tion programs as an integral part of long-term plan ning. I must say I can't agree with the Minister's com ment that he discovered in moving into the office that although I had tal ked about long-term planning and the need for it during my remarks in the Thr one Speech Debate, that he hadn't seen any evidenc e of it in the office. In fact, I want to assure him that we worked very hard to develop a long-term plan ning capa bility.

We, in fact, during the time I was Minister, cond ucted a cross-Canada searc h, a nation-wide search for a long-term plan ner. They'r e not easy to find. A long-term plan ner in the health field has to be a combina tion health eco nomis t, social plan ner , accountant and a person with some experience in building and design and a person with a sense for the demographics of the age; the changing age-ratios of the population and some considerable wor king expe rience with the different components and dynam ics

Monday; 19 April, 19 82 that make up the whole health care field.

We in fact intervi ewed a possible applicant from On tario, we pursued a possible candidate in Alberta; we were not successful in locating in the time that we had av aila ble to us, a long-term planning exec utive director who we felt could do the job, take on the challenge that faces us here in that area in Man itoba, that anyb ody coming into the position with whom we had been able to come into contact was someone who was going to need two year s or more, either in the experience of the Man itoba health system or simply in the experience in the science of health econom ics and health care planning gener ally.

As a conse que nce, the search sort of founder ed on that frusta tion temporari ly, but we were continually in discus sion with the Health Services Commission and the community health side and public health side of our depar tment to work out the mechanics and the con cept of long-term planning as against operational plannin g, and I can assure the Minister that a great deal of effort, energy and initiative had been applied to that whether there was such a capabil ity in place or not. It was certainly my ambition to see such a capa bility in place as qu ickly as possible. Mr .

Chairman, the obvious challeng es facing the health care system are the challenges that confront us with respect to the changing age of our society, changing age demographics, the aging of the popula tion, geriatric me dicine, for one; the rest ivene ss and disenchantment of some of the medical profession under some of the rigidities of the Medicare system, for two: and speciall y shortages, manpower shor tages in a number of medical special ities such as anaest hesiology and optholmology and psychiatry, for three. But really, behind all of those, Mr .

Chair man, there is one identifiable major challenge which all of us, not only in this Chamber but all of us in Cana da, must get at if we're going to preserve and strengthen our system and tha t is the absolute req uirement to modern ize the system. That begins with a reform of the hospital system.

I believe and I'm sure that the Min ister does, that ther e are many things that could be done to improve Medicar e - and I speak there specif ically of Medi care, the medical car e services side of the insured health program ming spectrum and many things that could be done to improve health care delivery in gen eral - if we could bring some refo rm and moderniz a tion to the hospital component which, of course, is the biggest component in the whole system and the most expensive.

So I think really we have to look beyond some of the surface and superficial difficulties and superficial solutions that have been offered both by gove rnme nts and by health care professionals if we'r e going to really solve the problem that's confr onting us. It's been pointed out by many health commentator s and exper ts, the most recent being Professor Ric hard Bir d in a contem porary

article in Policy Options Magazine, that although expenditures on health car e in Canada in terms of a percentage of our gross national expen diture, have remained fa irly constant through the 19 70's and certainly have not diminished. The cost of health care services has gone up enormously and much faster than the prices and costs of other com ponents of the economy have. 16 21 As a conseq uence when we talk about the threat of increasing costs, expan ding costs in the health care field, we're not engaging merely in rhetoric. It is real.

It is real because it's costing govern ment more to deliver the health services that are contained in the ove rall health programming spectr um. I believe the main challenge we face is to get at a refo rm and a modern ization of the hospital system and I would hope the Min ister, his advisors and his colle agues ar e look ing towards that kind of an objective in the imme diate future. I certainly hope to and intend to discuss that issue with him as we exam ine his Estimates in detail. Mr . Chairman, I thank the Minister for his open ing state ment.

I'll look forward to the study of these Esti mates and I exp ress again my satisfact ion both with the personnel who worked for the public of Man itoba under the aegis of the Min ister of Health and with the refe ren ces that he has made to some program expan sions contemplated for '82-83. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Memb er for Roblin-Russell. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin-R ussell): Thank you, Mr . Chairman, my brief remarks will maybe not be helpful to the Committee but I think they should be put in the record for especially those that are new members in the Chamber and there is not many of us left. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Or der please. The Honour able Minister of Health on a point of order. HON. LAURENT DESJA RDINS (St. Bon iface): Ex cuse me. I don't object if the member is going to speak but I think we should remember the trad ition that we've had that on this issue it's been a state ment from the Min ister and a statement from the offical critic of the govern ment side and then we've gone line by line. I certainly don't object if the member wants to speak at this time providing that not ever y single member fee ls that this is a debate that we'll stay on this forever.

That is why we put the Minister's Salary at the ver y end. I don't object if he has anything as long as we follow tra dition. MR. CHAIRMAN: The opportunity, of course, is ther e for ever y member to speak when we return to this item at the end of the Estimates. Item No. 1.( 2) Salarie s - the Honour able Mem ber for Niakwa. MR. ABE KOVNA TS (Niakwa): Mr. Chai rman, on the same Point of Or der I think that far-reaching debate can follow on Item 1.( a)(2) which is Salarie s which includes the Dep uty Minister and people of that nature.

Almost ever ything is covered in that nature but I don't think that without the Honour able Mini s ter's staff to assist him that we can get into great detail. But I think that if you want to cover a ver y wide-reaching ar ea that even under a Point of Order it can be followed under the next item. MR. CHAIRMAN: If the Honour able Min ister would like to bring in his staff at this time.

Mond ay, 19 April, 19 82 MR. DESJARDINS: That might be acceptable. I wasn't protesting too much as long as we did not start another tradition, that's the only point that I had. Now I think the member is right, you can stre tch things under Adminstration but I would hope that we will to go line by line and then keep certain things for the Min ister's Salar y but I think we should be fa irly lax as long as nobody abuses the time of the Comm ittee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item No. 1.( a)

(2) Salar ies - the Honour able Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr . Chairman, I thank the members of the Committee for their advice. I shall not be ver y long. But as I said in my comments earlier I think it should be spelled out especially to the new members of the Leg islature and the present Min ister of He alth, who have done a most able job and the former govern ment and the present Minister and oth ers in this room well recall the costs of Medicare when the system was first brought into this province.

I think, as I recall, it was $25 million for the Federal Go vern ment and $25 million to the provinc e and ther e was a fee and etc., etc. but the costs have escalated and today we'r e going through these Estimates and we're look ing at some $91 3 million. So I just hope that all the members of the Leg islature and especially the new members, recog nize the amount of dollars that are expended for Health in this provi nce and that they should make their contri bution to the Min ister and to the Commit tee to make sure that these dollar s are well-expended.

Cer tainly, before I commend the former Minister, certainly we didn't solv e all the problems of Health when he was the Min ister, but he certainly improved the health car e delivery system at Ethelbert. That's a new pilot-type of project that the Min ister will likely be watching very car efully, but now that ju risdiction has left the ar ea that I represent, but it certainly was work ing well when I left. The other problem today, Mr .

Chairman, when I heard the Min ister make his open ing remarks and I refe r back to this mandate or whatever you call it, "A Cle ar Choice for Man itobans, Policies of the Par ty." I'm watching very carefully -which we are in Op posi tion every day -to make cert ain that this govern ment lives up to all the pledges and promises tha! they made to the people of this provinc e.

I very qu ickly looked over some of the problems that are ongoing in my constituency and the Min ister, and I understand his reaso ning that he has to advise Gilbert Plains, Gr andview that, as he said here, "I must advise that the He alth Service Commission Capital Progra m for the next five year s is still under rev iew, active rev iew by the govern ment." But the tragedy is, Mr . Chairman, and to members of the Comm ittee, this is not what they said in this historic document that I have in my hand and which was spelled all over Man itoba.

That's going to create not only problems for this Committee, it's going to create real problems for this Min ister because of the fact that these jur isdictions have been waiting for months for a meeting with Gr andview and Gilb ert Plains, have historically been waiting since Dece mber to meet with this Minister about matters which they think are of an urgent importance in the health deliver y system in their jur isdiction; unfor tu- nately, as of the 8th of April, the Minister says, "My present

schedule will not permit a personal meeting with you." I understand the Min ister's problems ver y tho roughly. I understand the problems that he's having with the doctors; I understand the problems that he has in revie wing these Es timates and going through them ver y thor oughly to make sure that he can , as a Min ister, justify. But I wonder why this party and this Leader that they have opposite would go out and make all these statements and allegations and charges to the people of this province. Well, I want to put it in the record because I didn't promise it. I'm not the one that made these state ments.

I didn't put them in black and white, neither did my former Minister because we had some responsi bility and understanding of what is expe cted of the people of this province and I just want to put on the record the concerns of the people in my constituency who are now pledged.

It says here: "Man itoba Democr acts would restore the health car e system." Now can this Min ister, or the former Minis ter, ever stand up in this House and tell me that the health care system in this province was ever des troyed when we're spending $9 13 million and last year we expended $732 million. -(I nterjec tion)- No, I didn't make that statement; it was your party over there that made those state ments.

It go es on here and says: "I ncreased spending on preventative car e will eve ntually bring down our health bill by eliminating costly tr eatment for health problems that can be stopped early." This Minister is ask ing us to expend another $18 8 million and this govern ment. Mr . Chairman, that's not fa ir.

Either tha t document should be withdrawn and the public of this provinc e should be told it's not feasible and it's not realistic; and I hope the Minister will tell me and the committee that it's not fa ir to go and make all these pledges and promises to the people of this provi nce because he can't deliver it. He's deliveri ng, I'm sure, and there will be no problems with us appr ovi ng the expen ditures which the Minister put in the record today, and he's got a most difficult job, and I wish him well.

But I wonder why, in the left-wing philosophy and policies of this party that is sitting across there and is now the government of the day, would go and make those, I don't think they'r e fair statements, they'r e not fa ir state ments to the health deliv ery system in this provi nce because. as I said earl ier, that Min ister, when he was in govern ment before did a commendable job and I don't think there is any member on our side of the House would every say anything ill about the way he handled the portfolio. He hand led it well; he expended the dollar s well. So did this Min ister, Mr .

Sherman, the Member for For t Gar ry. But to come out with all this junk in this manifesto that I have in my hand ton ight I think is a disaster and it's an insult to the health delivery citizen; it's an insult to that Minister when he was govern ment; it's an insult to this Min ister when he was gov ernment because it ain't that way, it ain't that way.

As one of the mem bers who has been sitting arou nd this Leg islature for a long time, I'm most concerned about this ideological philosophy of members opposite, when we're spending $91 3 million and come up with this kind of gar bage in a manifesto, which goes on to say: "Qual ity health car e would be 16 22

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 made avai lable throughout the provi nce." Can you believe that, Mr. Min ister. that is in a manifesto that was around this provinc e the last election campaign? Unb elievable. As a member that sat in this House since 19 66, that's an insult to you. Mr . Minister; it's an insult to that Minister; it's an insult to the taxpa yer s of this provi nce.

I just want it put on the record, as a member tha t's been here a long time, surely the peo ple of this provi nce are smarter than that and under stand when we're spending those kind of dollars that, in fact, qua lity health care could be made av ailable through the provi nce. Cer ta inly there's problems in the north. I still have problems in Robl in today to keep doctors ther e. The Min ister kno ws that; the former Minister kno ws that. But, I think with the number of dollar s that we'r e spending and the resources that we have, this provinc e has had good health care.

The Minister sitting there today when he was Minister before has had good health care, the best we can affo rd and I wish him well for the future, Mr . Chairman. MR. DESJARDI NS: Mr . Chairman, I believe that even the former Chai rman of the Comm ittee will feel that this is stretc hing things qu ite a bit. We could cover practically every thing under these Salarie s on their administration but certainly not the Man itoba Health Services Commission in the Capital Program. But, I'm thankful that the honourable member spoke as he did so early. I'm ready to play by any rules.

We can look and we can scrutinize and I can give the informa tion as best I can but we can have a gloves-off political battle right from the start. I'm easy . I'll accept any chal lenge. I don't know how well I'll do but I'll accept any challenge. I want to set the member straight. I did not write these things. Colle ctively, I accept responsibility. I would hope that you realize you lost that election. and quit playing in the past. I'm not going rise to the bait every time you wave that thing lik e you've been doing the last three months. I'm not concerned about that too much.

There's a lot of things that people can say during an election on all sides. In the field of health it's easy because nobody'll ever get perfect ion, no matter who. You can always do more so, it's very easy to do that. I didn't see exact ly what the member was driving at about the personal care home and so on. We will have policies. The commitments that we made, I feel if they'r e good commitments, we'll fol low; if not, I will advise my Cabine t that we should not deliver. I'm not going to be sucked in doing something which I feel is not right.

I'm going to advise my Cabi net that we should not fulfill a promise even if it's a promise that we made. So far in the Depar tment of Health I can't see any of those. We said that we would work on the Dental Program. We will. I'll resist the temptation of going all over the waterfro nt at this time but I think we should know exact ly where we stand early in this debate. I'm ready to discuss the Dental Progra m. We've made some commitmen ts there.

We've made some commitments under Pharma care and other programs to do certain services for the sen ior citizens as the Member for For t Garr y and former Min ister said when probably the thing that is rea liy fac ing us is around the turn of the century and starting around now, is the incre:o:se in senior citizens in the percen tage of the people of Man itoba. I don't car e to debate this at this time. We could go on for ever. As I said I won't rise to debate. But, maybe I' ve got a little more experience than some othe.rs but I will not be tempted into rehashing another election. That election took place.

It 's fin ished. We could bring any piece of campaign li tera ture and we can make a case. Anybody can do that; I' ve done the same thing when I' ve sat on the other side. I don't blame you people for doing it but I won't play your game. So, don't waste your time. You can do it on other Ministers if they let you, but I won't play this game. I'll give you as much informa tion as I can on this thing. I'll try to be fact ual; I'll try to be honest; I'll give you my point of view. I might agree with you, I might not agree with you, but I hope tha t we don't waste time in this futile exerc ise.

I don't think that's what the Estimate is for. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. ( a) (2) -pass; 1. ( a)

(3) Other Expen ditures-pass. The Honour able Member for Niakwa. MR. KO VNATS: Mr . Chairman, all I would ask at this point is, would the Honour able Min ister introduce the two members of his staff that are sitting with him? I understand one is Mr. Reg Edwards and I don't kn ow the other chap but, I would hope that he would intro duce his two staff and give us a little bit of the back ground as to their high school backgr ound just so that we could understand which is which. MR. DESJA RDINS: I would be ver y pleased to.

To my left is my Deputy Min ister and Chief Exec utive Dir ec tor of The Man itoba Health Servi ces Commission. His high school, he's too old. I don't know what school he went to -(I nterject ion)- I understand that you're his age and you went to school with him. That's what you were driving at. Well, you finally have proof that you did attend school because here's somebody that went to school with you. He's been work ing for the gov ernment -how many years Fred? -25 years. I think I said that we were ver y for tunate to have him.

I know that other provinces have tried to attract him and he doesn't lik e me to say anything lik e that. I personally feel very comforta ble with him. He's somebody that I trust implicitly and I note that he has the welfare of the people of Man itoba at heart. To my right is our Director of Administration, he would be the ADM of Administra tion, Mr . Fr ank May nard, who's been with the department qu ite a few years. I think that the former Min ister brought him into this new position when ther e was a division of the former one department and it became two depart ments.

Peter Smith went with Co mmunity Services. He stayed with both departments for awh ile, then with Com munity Servi ces and Fran k came with us and we're very happy to have him. He's done an excel lent job, I hope he's done an excellent job with this book that I have in fr ont of me and I'll tel l you at the end of the Estimates and I'll tell him too. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1. (3) -pass. We're dealing with Item 2 - Administrative Services. 2.(a )

(1) Salar ies - the Honou rable Member for For t Ga rry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr . Cha irman, ther e have been sub- 16 23

Monday, 19 April, 19 82 stantial changes made in the administrative structure of the Department of Health arising out of the sepa ra tion of the two depar tments, the splitting of the Depar tment of Health and Com munity Services into Health and a separate Com munity Services Depar t ment. I wonder if the Min ister could advise me whether the positions in respect to the new Adminis trative Servi ces Division in Health have all been filled.

I know he supplied me with a listing this afte rnoon of positions and vaca ncies but I'd appreciate some reas surance from him that change which req uired a split ting out from Com munity Servi ces of a cadre of admi nistrative services personnel under Mr . Fr ank Maynar d has been completed and, if so, has it been completed without any req uired increase in the establishments of the two departments, Health and Com munity Services. MR. DESJAR DINS: Yes, Mr . Chairman, that's a con cern that we had and I'm sure that the former Min ister had that same concern.

We decided to have the Dep uty Minister of both departments get together and they were instructed that if this was going to work we eit�er would keep the same staff as was done before or we would not accept any additional staff or very little additional staff. Now all the positions except one, I think, has been filled and there is repetition or dupli cation. I think that we've done very well in dividing the staff.

Doing the same work, the member will notice on this paper that I gave him, that there were 19 last year and 19 this year and I'm told that, although I wasn't here during the Estimates of the Depar tment of Com munity Services, that the same thing was appli

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-36b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 36b.pdf
Language	en
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