May 16,

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Dale Kirby, MHA for St. John's North,

substitutes for Gerry Rogers, MHA for St. John's Centre.

The Committee met at 8:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Littlejohn): Good morning, everybody, and I want to say a special

thank you to everybody this morning. I know everybody tried to make this happen

and I thank everybody so much for accommodating the Committee members and

myself.

Minister and your staff, I certainly appreciate you being here at this hour

of the morning and also to all our Committee members. Thank you.

My notes, in consultation with the Clerk, tell me that we at 3.4.01, page

15.11. So we will pick it up from 3.4.01. I ask Committee members to be mindful

of being to the point this morning and our answers to the point, as we all have

some commitments that we would like to make in about an hour or so.

I thank you once again.

Andrew, I believe we left with you, so we will start with you.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I would like to say thank you to the department for making this happen

this morning. We very, very much appreciate it.

I am just going to go back, just for a quick second, because I have some

questions on 3.3.02, Atlantic Provinces Special Education Authority.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am just wondering, this year there is an extra $119,000

given to the APSEA.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: What does that, I guess, account for?

MR. JACKMAN: We can speak to it specifically. There is a funding formula

that exists between all Atlantic Provinces. I will get Ramona to speak to that.

MS COLE: In the past few years, we had actually built up a credit in our

account with APSEA. They provide programming for us and Janet could certainly

speak to that better than I can. We had built up a credit balance, so the figure

for last year and the year before at $559,000 was actually lower than our

provincial share. We used up that credit now, so this year we have had to budget

for the full provincial share of the formula.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

It is my understanding that the majority of services offered by APSEA are

provided to students and their communities by itinerant teachers. Are they

funded under this or would they be funded under the teachers' line budget under

Salaries?

MR. JACKMAN: Janet.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The teachers at APSEA that are part of the formula and

the money that is used for APSEA but our teachers are paid from here. The

services from APSEA that we avail of, their salaries would be included. Is that

correct, Darrin?

MR. PIKE: The service is actually provided in Halifax. As an example, for

students who are blind or have a visual impairment, they would actually fly to

Halifax for short-term programming and mobility exercises, if their sight is

going. It is actually a direct service that the students would go to Halifax and

stay there for short-term programming the same with any students who are deaf

or hard of hearing in the services that they provide. Most of our itinerant

service is provided within the Province through funding that we provide to

school districts. The itinerant service would come out of salaries that would be

in teaching services, not in this.

MR. JACKMAN: Regular teacher allocations.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I am going to move forward now we left off on 3.4.01, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under that section, under line 03, Transportation and

Communications, there has been a decrease in what is budgeted for this year. Is

there less travel or communications expected?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there is. As I have said from the beginning, a lot of

the travel expenses are going to be down and this is one of the areas that we

are tightening our belt upon.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under line 05, Professional Services, there is an extra

$100,000 budgeted from last year. What is the additional budget covering?

MR. JACKMAN: I am going to get Ramona to explain that one because I think

we (inaudible)

MS COLE: That professional services account covers the cost of our

marking boards, the teachers that come into a centre for marking. In the past

couple of years, they have been outside St. John's and it is more expensive to

operate them outside of St. John's because the pool is here most of the pool

is here. This year they will be held in St. John's, which results in a lower

requirement for travel costs and for professional services for those.

MR. JACKMAN: I think the question may have been asked last time: Is that

going to be a trend? No, it is not. We will alternate and it has been alternated

between Central Newfoundland here and Corner Brook.

MR. A. PARSONS: Line 06, Purchased Services, there is an extra $100,000

budgeted there. Is that going to the same thing?

MR. JACKMAN: No, those are related to some surveys that we will be doing

throughout all the schools quality of life surveys. There are new surveys at

eight different grade levels. So it is to deal with the printing, the delivery,

and the analysis of those results.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are the surveys done in-house?

MR. JACKMAN: You mean developed in-house?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, they are.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Quality of life surveys to do with the school climate

and to deal with bullying and all the issues in Safe and Caring Schools, those

kinds of items.

MR. A. PARSONS: When are the surveys going to be performed?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The end of May and early June. The grade levels for the

quality of life surveys would be Grades 2 and Grade 5, and Grade 7 through Grade

MR. A. PARSONS: When would you expect the results?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Well, the results will be fairly quick over the summer,

and we will have them for the beginning of the school year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I am going to move to 3.4.02 Professional Development, under Grants and

Subsidies there has been a decrease there. What accounts for this?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, there is curriculum implementation and you are

looking at line 10, right?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Some of the curriculum that we roll out, we do not expect it

will be rolled out this year; therefore, instead of a year or two to roll out a

new curriculum it may take an additional year. So we see a reduction in that.

MR. A. PARSONS: I have asked some questions in the House about the

whiteboards that the government has purchased. I actually did receive some

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, I do not disbelieve you.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is there going to be anything done to aid in this? There

are some teachers saying they are not getting the PD needed to help incorporate

the new technology into their curriculum.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Well, I will tell you what I would like to just as I

am being as honest with you that I believe what you are saying, I will tell you

that we are getting the opposite side of it as well, that many people are

finding this exceptional. If there is a particular circumstance I would like to

know where it is, if you would not mind, and then just let me investigate it.

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes, okay.

MR. JACKMAN: All right, if we could take it that route.

MR. A. PARSONS: That sounds good.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay, good enough.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am going to continue moving on here, 3.4.03 Centre for

Distance Learning and Innovation. I cannot recall, I do not think we hit this

heading the last time did we?

MR. JACKMAN: No, I do not think so.

CHAIR: We only got to 3.4.02.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

There is less money being spent in Salaries, or budgeted this year than the

year previous. What accounts for this?

MR. JACKMAN: We had two positions there; they are training positions that

have been vacant. Those will not be filled.

MR. A. PARSONS: Where would those positions be based?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Right now the two that were not filled, that will be

determined, but there will be no areas not covered. We have provincial coverage

for the two vacant positions that were not filled. I will be able to tell you

exactly, provide you with that at the next or at a future time, but all areas of

the Province will be covered by the training specialists.

MR. A. PARSONS: That is what it was, training specialists was it?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes.

MR. PIKE: Yes. There were four positions and now there will be two, and

the two will have to cover off the Province that was the four. We had these

vacant for most of last year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Did you notice any decrease in service with using half

the complement?

MR. JACKMAN: We have not received any issues raised with this. I have

been over to the centre and it has not been raised as a concern. Teachers are in

place, programming is increased, so we do not see it impacting.

MR. A. PARSONS: If the two positions were filled, would it perhaps add to

what was able to be done? I know firsthand CDLI is a great thing because I have

a number of schools that use it. I am just wondering if the two positions had

been filled, would that mean even better things.

MR. JACKMAN: Like I said, we have not received any issues of complaint

with it. The gentleman who heads it up is just a couple of offices down from

both of us. We are engaging with him on a regular basis and engaging with the

people at what is the name of the school it operates in?

MR. PIKE: Brother Rice.

MR. JACKMAN: Operating out of Brother Rice, so we do not see it

impacting.

MR. A. PARSONS: Moving to line 04 Supplies, $50,000 has been budgeted

this year and last year. Last year there was an overage of $126,000. What

accounted for this?

MR. JACKMAN: These are software upgrades and additional supplies and

equipment. As you can appreciate, as we get more and more technological there is

need for upgrades and whatnot. So, quite simply, that is what it is.

MR. A. PARSONS: You are not anticipating anything this year?

MR. JACKMAN: I think we budgeted the same. There will be requests from

time to time but we have maintained what we have now and we will see where that

goes, but we are not anticipating anything.

MR. A. PARSONS: Line 05, Professional Services, there has been a

reduction in the budget from $93,900 to $53,900. What makes this up?

MR. JACKMAN: We are doing more in-house work.

MR. A. PARSONS: The $73,900 that you spent last year, who would this have

gone to if it was gone outside?

MR. JACKMAN: Are you still under Purchased Services?

MR. A. PARSONS: Professional Services.

MR. JACKMAN: Professional Services. Can anybody speak to that?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: It would be for professional work for the E-Learning

components. That would be what is happening there, now we are going to be doing

more in-house.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Just move down to line 07. I am sure there is probably some kind of obvious

answer here for the big difference in numbers, $11.6 million budgeted, this year

it is $529,000. What would that be?

MR. JACKMAN: That was the one-time funding for the interactive

whiteboards. They have been purchased.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

CHAIR: I will let you finish with that section, Andrew. I have kind of

let you go through your time. Are you finished that section?

MR. A. PARSONS: I will finish this

section very quickly.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under Grants and Subsidies for this section, what does

the Grants and Subsidies cover off? It is $3.7 million.

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking at $3.7 million and then $3.8 million?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: There is an increased requirement for teaching services for

Distance Education for this year. Specifically, there is a greater need for

French language programming.

You are looking to specifically find out what this dollar figure would entail

overall?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes, under this heading, what does Grants and Subsidies

cover? Are you paying for teachers?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: That is the account where we pay for all the CDLI

teachers.

MR. A. PARSONS: How many teachers would $3.7 million cover off? Is it all

teaching salary or is there something else?

MR. JACKMAN: If you want, we can we can certainly get you a breakdown on

that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. PIKE: There are thirty-six teachers paid out of that. There is also

the grant for the Distance Education Learning technology out of Memorial. They

do the backhand service for CDLI and provide the servers and the technology

connection. We have a grant to Memorial University that provides that service

and there are thirty-six teacher's salaries in that budget as well.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

I wanted to ask, how many students on an annual basis receive services from

APSEA? How many students are we talking about, a small number or a large number?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I am sure I can get that for you, but we avail of the

services of APSEA, also our professional staff, for professional development and

avail of that. The services that APSEA give us are both student based as well as

professional services to the district staff and to us here at the department.

MR. JACKMAN: We can give you a number.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, I would be interested to know how many students and if

there are staff, then how many individuals are we talking about who are

receiving those services every year.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: I just wanted to go back in fact, I believe we talked about

some CDLI issues last time.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, I thought we talked a little bit about it.

MR. KIRBY: What is the total number of schools in the Province now?

MR. JACKMAN: The total number of schools entirely?

MR. KIRBY: Yes, in the Province.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Two hundred and sixty-eight.

MR. KIRBY: Two hundred and sixty-eight; of that 268, the department has a

definition of there are schools that are necessarily existent right? How many

schools do we have that are necessarily existent right now?

MR. PIKE: That is an old definition that we do not use.

MR. KIRBY: You do not use it anymore?

MR. PIKE: We do not use it.

MR. JACKMAN: No, I did not think so.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

What about in rural, remote outport communities, how many schools do we have

right now that do not have a broadband access? Do you know what the number is,

that do not have access to broadband Internet?

MR. PIKE: It is going to be a challenging question to answer. The

definition of broadband becomes it is how you define broadband. All of our

schools have connectivity.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Some of our schools have CAP sites on them; therefore,

they access Internet through that. In terms of students being able to access

high-speed connectivity, it is in all of our schools.

MR. KIRBY: I guess there is a difference when

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking to ask a question in broadband in the House

this evening.

MR. KIRBY: I am just thinking of the impact of when as CDLI sort of

predecessor organizations moved along, it seemed as though there was a certain

impetuous in government to place in the Department of Education, to introduce

broadband access to communities. Maybe it was a concerted effort across

government rather than just the Department of Education, but it would seem to me

that if broadband arrives in a community then their impacts for post-secondary

education, for health and for business et cetera. That is why I am interested in

the number of schools that do not have what we would call broadband access.

Pardon my sort of ignorance on the technicalities, but I just

MR. JACKMAN: I will repeat again, there will be no school that would not

have access to

MR. KIRBY: They would have some degree of connectivity?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, and it would be high speed.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

I have some other questions. You have been hearing the same things I have

been hearing, perhaps. I am just wondering, with respect to the teacher

allocation formula this year, does the department expect there will be a

reduction in the number of teachers or an adjustment in the number of teachers?

MR. JACKMAN: We expect that there will. The finalized number we have not

had yet but it is a trend that if we have a decrease in student population, well

the teacher allocation method, as I have said in this House on several

occasions, has changed. It has gone to a needs-based approach right now. We

expect there will be some teachers lost, but it will be because of declining

enrolment.

MR. KIRBY: Those declining enrolments are occurring in rural, outport

regions?

MR. JACKMAN: The majority of them would be in rural. Anybody who knows

the Northeast Avalon here, certainly it is not declining, but it will be across

the Province.

MR. KIRBY: Do you know if those are localized in particular regions?

MR. JACKMAN: No, they are not.

MR. KIRBY: How about grade levels? Do they impact particular grade levels

more than others or are they

MR. JACKMAN: No, it is a different scenario from across the entire

Province.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

I want to move to 3.5.01. Provincial Information and Library Resources.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: There is a reduction of, somewhere in the ballpark of

$100,000. Maybe if we could have an explanation.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. That was a one-time funding that we had provided for R

& M, Repair and Maintenance. That is not there.

MR. KIRBY: These are repair and maintenance funds.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: We will not anticipate then that there will be any reduction

in hours for library services?

MR. JACKMAN: No. In fact, I may stand to be corrected, but our investment

has seen increased hours at forty-seven of our libraries. We have made major

upgrades and repairs in, I think it is like five or six of our libraries. We

have invested in our libraries.

MR. KIRBY: The CNIB has been talking about the need for more accessible

library materials. I do not know if they have made representation to the

department on this or not, but are you aware of this request?

MR. JACKMAN: I know the CNIB have made some comments around that, but I

have not specifically seen it. I do not know if they presented

MR. PIKE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: They have presented to the deputy, yes.

MR. KIRBY: So they have, yes? Are we going to go in that direction in

providing more accessible reading materials for public libraries?

MR. PIKE: We have had a couple of meetings with them and discussions on

their concept of redoing their work plan and actually reorganizing themselves.

They have had discussions on their draft budget. We basically have had meetings

with them to sort of firm up their numbers and their plan. We asked for

additional information on what they are trying to create a new entity, break

off from the CNIB to form a brand new entity.

They have been working through what that looks like and we have just been

asking to get the details on what that project plan looks like. We met with them

recently, I think in the last two or three weeks, on their concept to see if

they have the necessary funding partners in place. This is funded by the federal

government. They are looking at private partnership, as well as provincial

partnership funding. They do not have all of their details worked out yet but

they are working through a perspective new way to do business.

MR. KIRBY: I have been doing a lot of research on access to and

availability of, and impacts of all-day kindergarten in the education system.

Has the department been doing similar research on all-day kindergarten and its

impacts?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. We are always doing assessments of programs and

whatnot, and full-day kindergarten is no different. We will continue to explore

all options.

MR. KIRBY: Has there been research done on what the cost would be to

shift from the partial-day model to the full-day model?

MR. JACKMAN: We are still in the process of doing that.

MR. KIRBY: So there has been some research done on the costing of it?

MR. JACKMAN: We have done some preliminary work and we are still looking

at it, yes.

MR. KIRBY: Is there a figure available then about what it would cost to

move to the full day?

MR. JACKMAN: No, not at this particular point. I have asked that we do

the research and to gather up the information. That is still in the process of

being compiled.

MR. KIRBY: Do you have any sense of when that figure might be available?

MR. JACKMAN: Now, you know I am a politician, and you are too. I am not

going to give you a specific time frame but the work is continuing and then once

we gather it, we will make further decisions at that particular point.

MR. KIRBY: In due course, at the end of the day, on a go-forward basis.

MR. JACKMAN: In due course, at the end of the day, on a go-forward basis.

There you are. I must mark that one down.

MR. KIRBY: Another thing I am interested in is the combination of child

care and early learning. My party's philosophy is that they are one and they

should be co-located. I am just wondering if the department has done any

research on what the internal cost to government would be to co-locate

MR. JACKMAN: Under one

MR. KIRBY: In one department.

MR. JACKMAN: Minister Johnson can speak to it from her end, but the

Department of Education and Child, Youth and Family Services, right now, are

working glove in hand together. We think that the other model that we have

before us now is working well.

MR. KIRBY: Mr. Chair, do I still have time here?

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: This is going to sound like an odd question but it is comes

from my friend, the gasman. We were having an interesting conversation about

of course, I have been talking about busing. Just with respect to the cost of

busing. I am not sure how this works, so I guess I will just ask: In terms of

gassing up, when a bus driver gases up a bus, does that happen at commercial gas

stations? Are there incidents where, say, the Department of Education or the

school districts are paying for gasoline that is purchased at the commercial gas

stations rather than

MR. JACKMAN: We have two systems. We have the school board system and we

have the private contractors. So, the private contractors would gas up

MR. PIKE: I think some of them make arrangements with the local gas

stations, where they purchase a large quantity of gasoline. I guess it is

according to how big an operation they are running, but certainly some of the

contracted bus companies would have arrangements. We would not know what their

arrangement is, but they would have arrangements with some local service

stations, wherever they purchase their gas especially if you are a large

organization, you come with that volume of purchase to a local gas station.

MR. KIRBY: What about when it comes to the district level of the busing

that is provided directly by the district? Are there policies on gas purchase? I

am thinking if you pull up and you avail of full service versus self-service,

for example, it is going to be more expensive.

MR. PIKE: They have to follow government-purchasing requirements. So, any

tendering for gas purchases, they have to follow the government rules.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

CHAIR: Dale, do you want to stop there and I will just move back to

Andrew, then we will come back to you?

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

CHAIR: Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Heading 3.4.04, Early Childhood Learning, would this be the

section you had

a Ministerial Statement yesterday?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: This is the

section that the pilot project falls under?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Would that be under Professional or Purchased Services,

or Grants and Subsidies?

MR. JACKMAN: That would be under both.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under both?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: How much was budgeted? I think three years is the

strategy.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we have had $4.8 million over three years. We are in

year two right now, so you would see, under Grants and Subsidies, likewise, you

will see an increase and that is where it is gone into.

MR. A. PARSONS: I was reading the statement yesterday and I can see what

the plan is. You have the package we are putting out.

How do you assess how it works when it is all done? How do you figure out

whether it was successful or not successful and should we change it?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is an important part of it. Do you want to speak

to it or do you want me to

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: (Inaudible) early learning strategy. For example, there

are many different parts of the early learning strategy and one of them is the

parent resource kits that you have probably heard about for two months, four

months, and six months. They are being piloted in twenty sites now.

They would be evaluated at the site, with the public health nurse, as they

are coming back for their next visits, as well as phone calls home. There would

be other pieces that would be evaluated. There will be a promotional campaign

about play that is coming very shortly and that will be evaluated. There is also

the partnership we have with the libraries board. There are many different

parts; all pieces will be evaluated of the early learning strategy.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: The promotional campaign that Janet mentioned, we will be

doing some posters. There will be some radio ads. There will be some TV ads.

Because as simple as people might attribute that play is just a simple thing,

there is a lot that goes on during play. It is important that people recognize

what it is. You do not want to plan too much for play but, I suppose, just learn

how to let them play.

MR. A. PARSONS: As the father of an eighteen-month-old, I have seen that

on a daily basis.

MR. JACKMAN: There you go. That is it.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is the plan, if it is successful, to expand to more

right now there are twenty sites. Would it be Province-wide?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. The second part of it would be the expansion of the

program up to thirty-six months.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I am just going to move on. I have some general questions here if I could.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: I believe I covered off the line by line. I am just

looking here. You have made mention before of My Gay-Straight Alliance that has

been started. Where is the cost of that listed?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The funding for that is coming from the Student Support

Services. Some of the training as well was helped paid through the Women's

Policy Office, for the training of that, to help the school districts and the

school leaders be able to take that resource and be able to deliver it better

throughout the school system.

MR. A. PARSONS: Will there be any steps taken to make it a mandatory

resource?

MR. JACKMAN: I think our philosophy to get the understanding and

acceptance of it, I think it is a resource to support people in school. I have

handed out a lot of these bands. This is the one from Egale Canada the people

who promote that.

The reason I wear this is for the other things around autism, epilepsy and

this kind of stuff, it is more direct. This is to accept and understand. It is

easy to say it, but get out and preach it. This resource is about having

something in school that students can use to develop gay-straight alliances

within schools. We are seeing it happen. Students are often ahead of us;

therefore, this is a resource to support them. We are finding that teachers are

getting in there and using it. I had been to two or three sessions where

teachers have been in, they are talking about it, they are moving on it, and I

have no doubt at all that it will be well used in the schools.

[Applause from gallery]

MR. A. PARSONS: I do not know if I have heard "Hear, hear!" from the

peanut gallery in an Estimates Committee before.

I am just going to move on here for a second. You mentioned ninety-five pilot

schools with regard to inclusive education.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Could I get a list of the schools, and a list of all of

that information?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: What was the number of schools?

MR. JACKMAN: It is 268.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is the plan to increase that?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, inclusive education comes about on a defined need.

There are school teams that get together and develop a plan. The overarching

thing is that we would have inclusion for all students who require it. Every

student is individual, needs a plan, work to develop that plan.

There will always be challenges, there is no doubt about it, but I think we

are not as much of an education system but we are as a society now that

inclusion is the model that we need to do, and not inclusion just for the sake

of including someone. It has to be meaningful and purposeful.

If I have a child, I do not want them stuck in there because yes, we are

going to have inclusion. It has to be meaningful. Schools are working towards

that.

MR. A. PARSONS: That was one of the areas I think we covered last time,

that the budget for special services has been reduced somewhat. I have been

hearing from some schools that they are hearing now they might lose 0.55 of a

position for special services. We are moving forward with inclusion but some of

what I am hearing is that in order to obtain this we are not getting the same

supports that they need.

I read the numbers on autism. It is pretty scary to see that the number is

going up drastically.

MR. JACKMAN: It certainly is going up.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is something going to happen in the future to make sure

the supports are there? If we are going to have inclusion, which is great, it is

a great thing,, but we need to make sure the supports are there. I am just

wondering what the plan is.

MR. JACKMAN: I said in the House here the other day let's take autism

and the ABA program. Up until a couple of years ago that was not even offered to

school grade children. It was implemented in Grade 1, Grade 2, and this coming

September it will be implemented in Grade 3. As with any program, there will

always be needs. There will always be never-ending demands.

Our class size in a regular classroom is, as I have said in this House, the

best in all of the provinces in Canada. There will always be people who will say

we need more, we need more. What we do is look for money. We do the best we can

with our money. We truly, and I truly believe that we are providing a quality

service in this Province.

Will we always be looking to offer more? Certainly, we will. Then what

dollars we can put towards it, we will.

MR. A. PARSONS: My colleague brought up the school bus issue. Is that an

issue for the department or the school boards themselves when you contract with

private contractors to provide the service?

MR. JACKMAN: The money is there. School boards are the ones that work to

develop contracts with

MR. A. PARSONS: The last

section I am going to cover off here, you

mentioned the fact you have so much money, you have to spread it around. I was

looking at the AG's report that came out. There is some concerning stuff in

there. Especially, I was just looking at the Western School District and a lot

of money wasted or misused.

Have there been any steps internally to address this? I am looking at

overpayments, cellphone use and liquor being bought. I am just wondering, have

there been steps taken to

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. We have been in contact with the school board. We have

indicated to them that there are guidelines that you have to operate within. I

think Dr. Elliott has been in the media on several occasions to address some of

the particular issues. We have offered our supports to the Western School

District to look further into the issues.

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes, because it is the same issues being brought up in

two straight reports. I am just hoping when the next one comes out that

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: When you are talking about personal cellphone costs being

paid for employees, purchases for gift certificates, furniture and equipment

being lost in times like this where we have to squeeze every dollar. This is one

area I am hoping, like I say, has been addressed.

Those are all of my questions. I thank you very much for the opportunity.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay.

CHAIR: Thank you, Andrew.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: I just have a small number of additional questions.

CHAIR: Okay.

Thank you.

MR. KIRBY: I was at a school council meeting at Beach Cove Elementary a

couple of evenings ago.

MR. JACKMAN: I heard.

MR. KIRBY: Representatives of the, I guess, staff of the Eastern School

District were there and they noted that $6.9 million was allocated for land

acquisition and planning in this budget as part of the new school construction.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: I do not recall, and I am imperfect. I am just wondering, did

we talk about that figure under 3.1.07? Did you folks actually say that part of

that was $6.9 million for land acquisition and planning?

MR. JACKMAN: It is page 15.8, 3.1.07.

MR. KIRBY: Does it come under 06 Purchased Services, or is that

Professional Services, or is it spread over both?

MR. PIKE: It is over both.

MR. KIRBY: So it is not broken out then. You have another

MR. JACKMAN: I can tell you, the case you are looking at specifically

there is $1.5 million to do that first step in planning for that school.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, because that number sort of surprised me. It is just

that I had not really heard it before.

Now, the other thing that has been in the news is the Charlottetown school.

There are no funds in here for that. That was not something that was

MR. JACKMAN: No, that is one of the priorities that the Western School

Board had identified. I believe it was number six on their list. We have these

projects that come up from time to time. I can tell you that in my own district

they went back in school in September, found mould, had to relocate them, but

there is no choice. We have to come up with the money somewhere to do it.

MR. KIRBY: So we need a whole new school there?

MR. JACKMAN: In Charlottetown?

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: No, we are not saying that. The report is back. The Western

School District is doing some planning around that now. Again, I cannot give you

a specific time frame but we cannot be too much longer until we inform these

parents. We have kids who are going to be soon out of the school and have to be

back into something in September. We have to arrive at a decision on that rather

quickly.

MR. KIRBY: When you were just speaking, you were talking about the ABA

program and it was going to be extended to Grade 3. You are talking about

Applied Behaviour Analysis, right?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: How is that delivered? I have been trying to get some clarity

from the Eastern School District on how ABA is provided in schools and I have

not really been able to get the answer that is suitable to me. If a child with

autism requires

MR. JACKMAN: Maybe Janet will speak to that.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: The majority of that is outside through Health Services,

the ABA, but also our teaching staff in the schools. Many teachers are trained

in ABA so that they can incorporate that in their work as well, but the

one-on-one service is through Health.

MR. JACKMAN: Are you looking to a particular case or something?

MR. KIRBY: Well, it just seems to me because ABA and IBI are so

intensive and it requires such person-to-person contact, it seems to me unless a

teacher is dealing with a really small number of students it would be difficult

to successfully deliver the therapy because it does require that level of

repetition.

MR. PIKE: As Janet mentioned, the ABA therapy that you are talking about

that was expanded is through health services. That is one-on-one services

outside of the regular school day.

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. PIKE: The ABA and Janet referred to it. What our teachers do is

imbed in within their normal it could be done one on one, but it is tried to

be an integrated model into your regular teaching practices. It is not done as a

separate piece. Although, some students, according to their need, could receive

direct ABA therapy within the school setting, but the program that we are

referring to, we are talking about, is the expansion of the health services

program. They would get pre-kindergarten, then kindergarten and move on to Grade

1, Grade 2, and then Grade 3.

MR. KIRBY: Other problems I am encountering is that folks have ABA

services that are provided outside of school hours, but they cannot access it

during or they do not feel like it is the same level, and it probably is not the

same level of service in terms of the intensiveness of it. They would prefer to

have more, and I think Ontario has moved in that direction as well in the last

ten years.

In any case, just a couple of more actually, I really only have one more

question. We are talking about the Gay-Straight Alliance business. I mean, in a

post-denominational educational system, of course the vestiges of faith are

everywhere to be seen and written on the sides of our schools. As a Unitarian,

it does not affect my faith at all, but I am curious about the level of

resistance that the department has encountered in its efforts to encourage

schools throughout the Province I am just wondering about how successful it

has been and how widely spread the efforts have been.

MR. JACKMAN: We have had some e-mails opposing the move, but they have

not been overwhelming. I am sure there are people out there who still have some

problem with it, but I tell you one thing, religion or no religion, I take my

stand on it at any point. I want no child to suffer, to feel humiliated or to

feel alienated because of their sexual orientation in the schools. We know it is

there. It has always been there, and the simple fact of it, let us deal with it.

It is as simple as that.

I was down to Bishops College, and the Member for St. John's Centre was down

there with me. This was a presentation on inclusion and the kids from My

Gay-Straight Alliance in that school were there; they took

part in the ceremony.

There was no alienation or anything. I thought that these kids are way ahead of

us. I am certain that fifteen years ago if these kids had gotten up, there would

be eyebrows down, snickers and everything else. That is not there now. So, I

think the kids are in a much more understanding society. I would say it at any

point in the media that I respect people's right to religion, but first and

foremost there has to be respect for individuals. It is as simple as that.

MR. KIRBY: I ask because there is a fairly intense debate going on in

Ontario right now over Bill 13 and Bill 14 about legislating anti-bullying. I

guess your department is aware of that.

MR. JACKMAN: Oh, yes.

MR. KIRBY: I cannot imagine that Newfoundland and Labrador society is so

significantly different in our

MR. JACKMAN: I hope that we are more understanding than the folks in

Ontario, and I think we are. I really think we are.

MR. KIRBY: That is the end of my questioning, Mr. Chair.

MR. A. PARSONS: I have one quick question that I forgot.

One last question: We know that Mr. Rice has recently indicated he is

leaving. In the new process to find a new CEO, will the department be actively

involved or have a say in it?

MR. JACKMAN: We have elected school boards and whatnot, so I really have

not given it much thought because he has only recently tendered his resignation.

Yes, we have elected school boards that will carry those things out.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Dale, are you done?

MR. KIRBY: I am done.

CHAIR: Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you, Minister

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you.

CHAIR: and thank you to all of your staff.

I just have a couple of housekeeping items and we will let you get out of

here.

MR. KIRBY: Do all of the lines have to be passed?

CHAIR: Yes. We are going to do that right now, Dale.

First off, we need to approve the minutes of the Social Services Committee

for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation on May 9, 2012.

Can I have a mover for the approval of the minutes of the Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing Corporation?

MR. LITTLE: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Little.

Do I have a seconder?

MR. CRUMMELL: Seconded.

CHAIR: Mr. Crummell, thank you.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded?

Carried.

Thank you.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Clerk, can we call the subheads, please, inclusive?

CLERK: Subheads 1.1.01 to 3.5.01 inclusive.

CHAIR: We will call 1.1.01 through 3.5.01 inclusive.

Moved by Mr. Crummell; seconded by Mr. Parsons.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 3.5.01 carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads carried.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Education carried without

amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Education carried without

amendment.

CHAIR: Motion to adjourn?

MR. A. PARSONS: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Parsons.

Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.