Volume XL Monday- F~ i Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: .Honourable Pa .trick McNicholas Number 30 · 12 May 1986 f b fYIAY

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Oral Questions MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Opposition. the Leader of the MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Premier. I wonder is the Premier aware of this proposed special excise tax which the Government of Canada is considering imposing on hunters, fishermen and other outdoor persons? Has the Premier or his administration made any representation to the Government of Canada withe respect to this and what is the Province's position on it? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, . the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews) is fully familiar with this matter that is presently under study by the people in his department and 'then the minister will be making recommendations to the government on it. We are aware of the proposal. At this point in time we have not taken a position on it, but we will, as soon as our assessment of the proposal is made, be taking a position on it. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speak~r. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. Ll751 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, it is somewhat amazing that this is something that the Premier needs to do any great degree of research into. Is the Premier aware that this proposed tax will apply to hunters, fishermen, guns, ammunition, rods, reels, lures, nets, canoeists, backpackers, campers, bird watchers, anybody wanting to do anything in the outdoors? Would the Premier indicate whether he accepts this Tory philosophy as applied by members of the Conservative administration in Ottawa? Is the Premier in agreement with this basic philosophy of applying user fees to all those wishing to use the outdoors? MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I am in favour of the policies just enunciated by the Leader of the Opposition, or whether he has asked me if I am in favour of the proposal that has presently been made by the federal government. I do not know if the two of them are the same or not in his

interpretation. That is why we are taking a look at the proposal, making sure we have what the federal government are talking about right. After that has been assessed we will take a position on it. If we think it is more injurious than positive for the people, the outdoorsmen and the recreationalists and so on, then obviously we will oppose it. If we think it is more positive for them than negative, well, then I guess we will support it. But we are not going to take a position until we clearly understand the intent of the proposal and what its effect will be and where it is No. 30 Rl751

going to be applied and so on. So, first of all, we will get all the facts and then we will make a decision. Unlike the Opposition, we like to get our facts straight first, and then, after getting our facts straight, we will make a decision on it . MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Premier waited to get his facts straight on factory freezer trawlers and we saw where that got him.

I say to the Premier what is at the base of it, what is at the root of it is a desire by his federal counterparts to tax everything that they can, including the ver:y air we breath if they could - MR. PEACH: That is not tnie. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: - imposing user fees on the ver:y air we breath, if they could find a way of doing it. They are not . leaving much uncovered with this. Now if that is the basis, does the Premier need to do any great degree of research to come out and tell us what is the philosophy of the Tory Party of this Province?

Are they in favour of taxing everybody who wants to do anything in the outdoors of this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: 11752 May 12, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, you are asking us all to abide by the rules and I am trying to do it in answering and I am being very brief. The Leader of the Opposition is over there. He had a preliminary, then debate on a supplementary. It was very argumentative, what the Leader of the Opposition was saying. Therefore it violates the rules. I am trying to get up and answer quickly and briefly. Mr.

Speaker, 'to the f ina! question, or debate or speech that the Leader of the Opposition talked about, no, we do not have to do voluminous amounts of research on it but we want to understand exactly what the proposal says and then take a position on it. That will not take us very long. It will not take us very long at all. So there is not a lot of research, no. I agree. But we want to make sure we understand what the intent of the proposal is so that when we do take the position we have all the facts before us. That is all we are saying, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Is it possible, I ask the Premier, that the Government of Canada is not keeping him and his administration fully informed, and is this the reason why the Premier is not prepared to take a position now? The Government of Canada is prepared to go public, send up a trial balloon with respect to this concept. Are they doing this without any consultation with the Provinces, without consulting the Premier and his administration? No. 30 Rl752

If so, where is this great Tory co-operation we heard all about? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as I said the minister is completely informed of it, and he has his people in his department doing the necessary work so that we can take a position on the proposal. So there is all kinds of co-operation. You know, it is very odd that the Leader of the Opposition should ask this kind of a question today. He has not asked about the latest unemployment statistics, which show 6,000 more people working this month than last month.

He has not asked about the great Liberal protest over in Port aux Basques on the weekend where three people turned up. All the Liberals in LaPoile district turned up, Kr. Speaker, all three of them. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. BARRY: Now, Kr . Speaker, the Premier better get a Press Secretary because the news reported fifty today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, you better get your figures right. I think they dropped a naught at that when they said fifty. L1753 May 12, 1986 Vol XL Kr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier whether he recalls the great hunter fee that was imposed, the $5 licence fee, non-refundable, for hunters applying for licences. Does the Premier recall that the revenue from this was supposedly to go to increase the number of wildlife officers and the amount of enforcement? In fact, we have seen very little, if any, increase in the enforcement, and we have seen that money go into general revenues, and this is the rational that the Government of Canada is proposing for this fee.

Will the Premier indicate whether he is confident that this fee, if imposed, will go for great wildlife protection rather than into the general revenues of the Government of Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECICFORD: Now you see why we hav.e to look into this matter, Mr. Speaker, because we have to ensure, for example, that we fully understand it so that the money would be dedicated and it would not just go into general revenue.

As far as· it goes to our own particular circumstance, when we put the $5 on, that went to hire three or four wildlife officers over and above the numbers that we had, and we . . also instituted an anti-poaching programme. So all the money and more that we have raised has been used when we put that $5 fee on. Unfortunately, the Leader of the Opposition was not in Port aux Basques Saturday night so he would not know, once again, of CBC erroneously reporting the news. I happened to be right there on site and I saw one, two, three people, Kr. Speaker, who were Liberals when we No. 30 R1753

arrived and who were converted before we left. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, could I have just one final question? MR. LUSH: I yield. MR. SPEAKER: By leave! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, those figures are something like the Premier's inflated polls. . I would like to ask the Premier whether he would give consideration to the possible . incentive towards poaching that any approach such as this contemplated - MR. SIMMS: An incentive towards poaching? MR. BARRY: Yes, an incentive towards poaching if there is - MR.

SIMMS: We made more progress in that area last year than ever before. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: I am happy to hear that . And what I am suggesting to the Premier and asking is would heconsider the fact that if we see increased fees being imposed that relate to the amount of catch, for example, there is going to be a tendency for people not to report Ll754 May 12, 1986 Vol XL in order to avoid paying the fee?

And would the Premier give consideration to the possible adverse consequences this could have to wildlife protection if this type of fee, which is related to the type of the catch, is imposed by the Government of Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know what the bon. the Leader of the Opposition is talking about. Our anti-poaching efforts are working here in the Province right now are being successful.

That is just another point, why we have to look at what the proposal says, what it W«;>Uld mean if it was put into effect, if the money would be dedicated just for wildlife and environmental matters or not. So those are the kinds of things that we have to look at before we take a position, Mr. Speaker. our anti-poaching campaign is working so well in Newfoundland now that poachers are getting just as rare as Liberals. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins).

Last week we had an example again of this government's credibility being put on the line. I wonder if the minister can indicate what substance there is to statements and accusations made by the breweries last week when they expressed their complete and total disbelief of the fact that the Newfoundland Liquor No. 30 Rl754

Commission putting European beers on sale in spite of the minister~s word that this would not happen? Now can the minister indicate whether there is any substance to this? If so, what is his word worth? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Kr. Speaker, the bon. member is interpreting a little. If he will · go back to the tapes. I think this was last February, he will see that I was asked the question, 'Will the European beer now go on sale?' And I said, 'There will be no sale of the European beer which will be of any harm,' words to that effect.

Indeed, there was a sale of European beer recently, several months later, that came about because of unforeseen circumstances. The sale went very quickly and no harm was done. MR. PATTERSON: No casualties. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: In other words, Kr. Speaker. the minister is acknowledging that he did indeed make that commitment to the breweries. Is the minister not aware of the adverse effects that this kind of a decision can have on a major industry in this Province with no forewarning?

The companies could not be in a position of planning because they only knew about this the day beforehand. Can the minister not indicate whether he believes that . this will have an adverse effect L1755 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL on the breweries in this Province now putting that beer on sale now so late in the season? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Kr. Speaker, to reiterate, I did not make the statement the bon. member said I made; I made another statement and that statement was that there would not be a sale that would do any harm, and there was not a sale that did any harm.

There was a very brief sale, a very rapid clearance of stocks which were on hand because of unforeseen circumstances, and there has been no harm done to the ~brewing industry. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. the bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. I am wondering what evidence the minister has to indicate there will be no harm when the breweries themselves indicate there will be harm?

Now, can the minister say that he has the facts and the figures to indicate that there will not be a slowdown in production in the breweries resulting in any lay-offs in the next few w~eks? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Kr. Speaker, the evidence for no harm is that the breweries are still there. We have the same brewing before. numbers brewing No. 30 industry today that we had There are the same of people employed in the industry as there were R1755

before. So what evidence does the bon. member require? We had an alternative. When the bon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) is finished coaching the bon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) as to the next question, perhaps I could get the bon. member's attention. Is the coaching all finished?

What happened was that because of · unforeseen circumstances there was a retention of a large amount, or a relatively large amount, of European beer, and we had two alternatives; we could have either had a rapid sale which would have disposed of this and not done any harm, which it has not; or we could have destroyed a good that the people of this Province paid for, that the public of this Province were on the line for, and in actual fact had laid out good money for. And this government are adverse to destroying goods that the people of this Province have paid for. So we elected to put it on sale, which we did.

The sale went very rapidly. I understand that the sale was very acceptable in Bonavista North. Actually, the citizens of Bonavista North thought it was a very good idea to put this on sale. Now perhaps the member for Bonavista North does not believe that, but I can assure him that we have information as to how the sale went in various parts of the Province and it went very well in Bonavista North. Now I am willing to send out a note to the people in Bonavista North, if the bon. member insists, saying that he was against this even though they enjoyed and liked it and encouraged it that he was totally against. MR.

LUSH: L1756 May 12, 1986 Vol" XL The people of Bonavista North know that I am against beer. A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister does he not believe in the old traditional virtue that a person • s word is his or her bond? And, secondly, will the · minister tell this House and tell the people of Newfoundland that the breweries will not hire extra people as a result of this sale?

The minister has said there will be no slowdown in production, there will be no lay-offs, but will this sale prevent the breweries from taking on extra people whom they normallY. take on at this particular point in time? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, for the third time I say that what the bon. member has said I said I did not say. So I agree that a person's word is his bond to the extent that it is humanly possible. Now, in regard to any harm to the employment in the brewing industry, there was no harm done to employment in the brewing industry.

The brewing industry is a 365 day a year activity. It will go on for 365 days this year, and the number of people on the employment rolls at the breweries was the same this week as the week before and will be the same, as far as I know, the week after this. Businesses throughout this Province have to cope with sales every once in a while. This is No. 30 R1756

nothing new. Every business, if you are selling shoes or you are selling cars or you are selling anything, scribblers, you often have to cope with sales. So the breweries, which are private businesses, have to cope with sales. So what is new? What is the big deal on all that? MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. the member · for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: I have a question for the Premier. It relates to employment opportunities in the offshore. It is my understanding that large numbers of the jobs are being held by non-Newfoundlanders.

Indeed one rig, I am told, has only about 15 to 20 per cent Newfoundlanders working on that particular rig. I wonder if the Premier would indicate how he feels that squares 'with the government's policy on the matter and with the stated intention of the federal provincial offshore agreement on the subject? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, could the hon. member give me the name of the rig and the rest of the details so that I can check it out and get back to the bon. member? MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR.

SIMMONS: Ll757 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, I can give it to him and I shall do -so privately. I did not think · it was germane to the question. The question stands that large numbers of non-Newfoundlanders are employed on the rigs and I wonder if this is in keeping with the Premier's oft-stated policy on the subject of giving first opportunity to Newfoundlanders. That is the overriding question. MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows the answer to that question. I have said it often enough. MR. SIMMONS: -Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR..

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR.. SIMMO!IS: What in particular is the government doing or how is this policy being policed to ensure that employment opportunities for Newfoundlanders are being maximized? MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: It is being monitored all the time, Mr. Speaker, as it has ever since the offshore began.

Now and then what we do get is for a month a rig coming and leaving, and going to Nova Scotia or going to Nigeria or going to Brazil? - we have had quite a few here like that - or going to the North Seal sometimes there is a switch on like that for about a month or so. But if I had all the details that the bon. member is talking No. 30 R1757

about, I would, sure, check it out and just see if there is any legitimate reason and, if there is, we will redouble our efforts in that regard. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier. More than two years ago, Mr. Speaker, a decision was taken by the former Minister of Health, the late Mr. House, to close down the cottage hospital at Come By Chance. Now since two years have passed, Mr. Speaker, many things have happened.

This Saturday night, as a matter of fact, in that area there is going to be the fiftieth anniversary of that hospital. It has been there for fifty years and served the needs of the people well. I want to ask the Premier, in view of the fact that since that announcement was made two years ago subsequently, of course, we had Mobil indicate that Adams Head, which is in Come By Chance, will be a site for the fabrication pertaining to offshore and the concrete platform, and a couple of weeks ago in this Legislature the Minister of Development (Mr.

Barrett) announced that there could be a petrochemical plant and perhaps reactivation of the refinery, in view of all those things let me ask the Premier is there any possible chance that the government could look at the Come By Chance facility in a new light, especially with the developments forthcoming? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. Ll758 May 12, 1986 Vol XL PREMIER PECKFORD: The answer, Mr. Speaker, is no.

It is one of the reasons why greater impetus was given to a larger hospital for Clarenville, which is now going to be a regional facility, which is going to have additional facilities that the old Come By Chance facility did not have and, therefore, the Clarenville operation will be much, much larger. I forget now how many millions of dollars it cost. MR. CALLAN: Sixteen and a half million. PREMIER PECKFORD: Seventeen million dollars to build a new hospital which will have the ability to have specialities there which the smaller one could not have.

As well, w~ can see the -growth of Clarenville over the years as sort of a service center for that area, both in shopping and in other areas which has led to it becoming somewhat of a regional center and therefore the new facility, which is now getting ready to open in Clarenville, will be better able to service the medical needs of that whole area. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, would the Premier indicate that, when the hospital does close, will the clinic that will replace it be a twenty-four hour clinic or will it be a nine to five?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No. 30 Rl758

I think the bon. member already knows the answer to that question. It has been given by the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey) both to the bon. member and to the people in the Come By Chance area many, many times. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Kr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member or Bellevue. MR. CALLA!J: Mr. Speaker, the Premier, I assume, meant by that answer that the clinic will be a nine to five. In that respect let me quote from . a letter that the Premier wrote to the Leader of the Opposition a couple of weeks ago. He talks about the hospital there now being a stabilization center.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! If this is a final ·supplementary, maybe the bon. member would like to pose it. MR. CALLAB: Mr. Speaker, let me quote from the Premier's letter, 'That will still be done when · the inpatient facilities are phased out. The stabilization will take place at the out-patient clinic.' How can that happen, I .am asking the Premier, if an accident takes place at ten o • clock at night, 12 o'clock at night, or something else? Will the Premier explain what he means by that sentence? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Kr.

Speaker, I will get a copy of the letter and see what the bon. L1759 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL member is talking about in the letter. We cannot have a medical facility of $10 millionor $15 million or $20 million everywhere in the Province. If you look at Bay d' Espoir right now which the bon. the member across the way (Mr. Gilbert) represents, as he well knows the people in that area have to go 90 or 100 miles to a possible facility of any sort, and many other places around the Province are the same way. We closed down the Markland Hospital and built a brand new medical clinic there which serves the area very well. MR.

CALLAN: It is a twenty-four hour clinic you know. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: We will protect the medical interests of the people of Come By Chance. At the same time we are upgrading the facilities that they are going to have access to and they are only about twenty or twenty-five miles away from, which is reasonable not only in Canadian standards but in world health standards. We are upgrading the medical facilities for the people of SUnnyside, Come By Chance, Arnold's Cove, that whole area there, a big, big improvement with $16.5 million.

Unfortunately, yes, the small conununity of Come By Chance is going to lose a cottage hospital. What we have got to do in this Province is realize that medical facilities and senior citizens homes cannot be the economic mainstay of a conununi ty, it has got to be something more substantial, and that is why we are moving. By the same token, we have got to serve the largest number of people with No. 30 R1759

that facility . MR. CALLAN:_ And so you will - PREMIER PECKFORD: So Clarenville is a lo~ical site for a $16.5 million medical facility which is ~oin~ to improve the medical services for that whole area. I do not apolo~ize for it at all. MR. CALLAN: - but they will not come from Come By Chance. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you. very much. Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: My question is for the Minister responsible for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation (Mr. Dinn). and it has to do with the sale of 326 units in Stephenville.

I have been advised by the individuals there that they are desperately now tryin~ to or~anize a housing cooperative in order to take over the units that are for sale by the Housin~ Corporation. but unfortunately this process is a !on~. educational one which takes six months to a year to complete. my question to the minister responsible: Is his department willin~ to delay the puttin~ out on sale of these particular units long enou~h to allow the residents who have lived there, up to ten to twenty years in some instances. to put in a reasonable offer on the units throu~h a housin~ cooperative?

Ll760 May 12. 1986 Vol XL MR . SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker. first of all we are ~oing to ~o to proposals. I would expect that that would take anywhere from eight to ten weeks. If in eight to ten weeks the residents of Stephenville can put to~ether some sort of a proposal, or a promise of a proposal, I would certainly be willing to look at that. I do not visualize that the 326 units at Stephenville will be sold in the next few months. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker.

I have only had very minor interest shown in the units at Stephenville by virtue of a letter sent by the bon. the member for Stephenville (Mr. I<. Aylward) to me to have a look at. and another one that I received. - So there are only two small bits of information given to me that indicate any interest in the buildings at Stephenville. So I would anticipate that the people out in the units who want to form a cooperative would have plenty of time after the proposals are called. If they have a proposal. possibly they can put it together .

After that. when the buildings are not sold, because I would anticipate we would only sell one or two of them anyway. we can look into it. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary. Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Menihek . HR. FENWICK: My supplementary is that there has been considerable activity there. unlike what the minister is saying. My question to him is No. 30 Rl760-

this: Since we have information now that the tender call is this weekend, it will be going out in this weekend' s paper, and he has already been asked by the residents there and by people involved with the co-operative movement if he could delay it, could he explain how that coincides with the answer he just gave us with regard to the formation of the co-op? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DINN: There is no problem with the proposal call. It is from the point of view of, when you call proposals ·and get whatever interest that is out there in, then you can have a look at it.

If there is no interest, I mean, they can have six years to think about it. So that is what the idea of a proposal call is. You put the proposal in the paper and they come in to see if there is any interest in it. If there is no interest in it, then the hon. member has no worries at all. But if there is a lot of interest shown, then we will look at those proposals.

If in the event that people out there want to form themselves into a co-op and they need some more time, then, as I told the bon. member and as I told the people out there who are talking about forming the co-op, I will certainly consider it at that point in time. There is not going to be any sale date laid out when you call a proposal. MR. FENWICK: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Menihek. Ll761 May 12, 1986 Vol XL MR.

FENWICK: I understand from what the minister is saying there that if only small or no interest is shown, then they will be entertaining whatever the housing co-op wants to do. But if there is a tremendous amount of interest, the other individuals who are looking for it will be given first priority. Does that mean - and this is the question - Mr. Speaker, that the housing co-op is going to be the court of last resort only and we will only ,get the units there providing there are no entrepreneurs who are willing to put their money into it? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DI.NN: Mr.

Speaker, it means exactly what is says. What I said was this, to make it clear for the bon. gentleman, I am going to proposals. Bids will come in probably. There might be more than one or two. We will have a look at those bids. If in the interim period of time the co-op form themselves into a group of interested citizens who want to report to me that they need a particular amount of time to form themselves into a co-op, and that is not an excessive amount of time in my opinion, government will decide then.

At that point in time·, we will decide whether to extend or not to extend, to accept the offers that are in or not. Mr. Speaker, if the people out there are interested in forming a co-op, there are 326 units that are going on sale. That means 326 families have to be contacted. If you cannot contact them in ten weeks, if you cannot see an interest shown within · that ten No. 30 R1761

week period, then, Mr. Speaker, I do not see any reason why there should be an extension. But if there is an interest shown, and they can show me that the people out there are definitely interested in it and can come in with a proposal, then I said that I will consider extending the time whether there are good or bad offers in. MR. GILBERT : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Kr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

During the Estimates Committee he was asked if he could provide a list of the 60/40 roads money and grants for water and sewerage and for fire departments and all . that throughout Newfoundland, and announce a list of the communities that were to receive those grants. He said then that he could not, because once the committee had passed his estimates he had to take his list to Cabinet, and it would be then approved by Cabinet. Has this list now been approved by Cabinet? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman I believe is a little bit confused.

First of all, the list that I tabled at the estimates committee meetings was a list of last year's projects. It dealt with the Community Water Service Programme, and the number of districts that had received funding under that Ll762 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL programme. I indicated to the bon. gentleman at that time that I would be quite willing indeed to run off a copy of that list and have it sent to his office. Insofar as the Community Water Service vote for the 1986/87 budget is concerned, that has not yet received final Cabinet approval and I cannot obviously provide him with a list of those projects. MR.

GILBERT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: I was not confused, Kr. Minister. I asked the minister for the list of this year and he said, yes, as soon as it had passed Cabinet. I was asking you had that list passed Cabinet and you told me no, it had not. What I am concerned about, in my supplementary, is that there are many communities out there, we have heard of Norris Point, and there are many in my district - you know, Kill town, St. Alban's, Burg eo - that are waiting.

They have approvals for grants, and Ramea and those places have applied for grants to do Water, sewerage, roads, and they have not got it back. Can the minister now tell me when those communities will be advised if they are going to get the grants or not? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, again gentleman is confused. No. 30 the bon. It is not R1762

grants we are talking about here in this specific instance, we are talking about guaranteed loans that are issued to various councils for water and sewer projects. But I cannot, Mr. Speaker, indicate to the bon. gentleman when that capital programme will be approved.

Obviously, it has to be dealt with collectively by the Cabinet of the Province and as soon as those projects do receive final Cabinet approval, the various districts and communities in the Province will be made aware of what funding they do have under the 1986/87 budget and, obviously, in plenty of time as well to have tenders called and the work completed this season. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. Petitions MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Kr. Speaker.

It gives me tremendous pleasure to introduce this petition to the House. It is a petition from residents of Grand Falls, Windsor, and Bishop's Falls, so I apologize to the members concerned that I have not given copies to them. It is not a very large petition but it is an important one. It is the first petition asking this House of Assembly to help put in place the amount of funds required to complete the Encyclopedia of Ll763 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. SIMMS: Do you a copy of that?! MR. FENWICK: Yes, you can have a copy of it afterward. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

FENWICK: In order to elaborate on that, Mr. Speaker, the Encyclopedia of Newfoundland and Labrador may not be familiar to most people, but it is the encyclopedia started by Joey Smallwood's Publishing Company, I think about five or six years ago. MR. SIMMS: How many names petition, 'Peter'? MR. FENWICK: are on Only a small number. About seven or eight, something that. the six, like The point of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is to introduce this topic to public debate at this time. The first two volumes have been completed.

They actually go from A to H, I believe it is, although A to G is what I initially thought it was. So we have part of the Encyclopedia completed. I have talked to a number of historians and other academics and they are practically unanimous in their enthusiasm for the particular work. They say it is extremely well researched, well written, and it is a poblication that is of inestimable value to all the libraries and all the schools of the Province, and, .indeed, to many homes in the Province if people are willing to put out the kind of money required No. 30 Rl763

to buy it. The problem is when you have an encyclopedia from A to H, it is not really overwhelmingly valuable. For example, the present Premier of the Province is not in the encyclopedia yet, and I put that forward as a major argument in its favour. The present Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews), since his name starts with an M, is also probably not in the encyclopedia yet and I would put that forward as a very significant argument for having it completed. MR. BAIRD: Are you in it? MR. FENWICK: Yes, I am, under F. And the present Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Hr.

Simms) is not in ·, obviously, because his name is under S. But all kidding aside, Mr. Speaker, the fact is there are a number of courses that our revised high school progranune has for which it is absolutely essential to have a resource book of this kind in the schools in order for them to be done properly. My wife is a librarian at the local High School in Cape St. George and she feels that from A to H it is easy to give students the references they need in Levels One and Two in the Newfoundland CUlture courses and the history courses, however, for the rest of the encyclopedia, it is extremely difficult.

So, Mr. Speaker, my estimate is, from what the minister told is in the Estimates Committee, we need $1.5 million to complete it. I would argue that it would take L1764 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL five or six years to do it. What I would like to suggest today for the first time, and, hopefully, if more petitions come in not for the last time, is that we propose this as a project for this Province to undertake for the Five Hundredth Anniversary of the Discovery of Newfoundland. It does not sound to me that it would be overwhelmingly expensive.

It is similar to the project that was done in the Province of Alberta with the Canadian Encyclopedia. All people who have seen the encyclopedia to date say it is an excellent work and deserves completion. I welcome participation in this debate by members opposite and members in the Liberal caucus, so that we can get some sort of unanimity about completing this very important work. MR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker. . KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, we on this side whole-heartedly support efforts to obtain the necessary assistance to see the completion of the Encyclopedia of Newfoundland . I had the opportunity last weekend of speaking with certain members of Kr. Smallwood's family and certain people who have been involved in working with him on the encyclopedia, and one of the things that was expressed to me was amazement that the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth (Mr.

Matthews) has made a number of public statements both in this House and outside this House about the status of the work or what is needed in order to complete it, No. 30 R1764

but never, never .has contacted those who know wh~t is happening or what is needed. The Minister has had the utter audacity to comment upon what might be needed, where the project is, or what government might be considering, and has not had the interest to contact the people who are involved in working on this project directly. I am glad to see that the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) is introducing the necessary element of non-partisanship into this item.

Whatever party you may be a member of, you have to acknowledge and recognize the tremendous contribution 'that Joey Smallwood has made to this Province just in bringing it into Confederation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: You also have to aclmowledge the fact that he is a man who has been tremendously interested and concerned with the dissemination of lmowledge. He has been a tremendous believer in the value of books, the value of literature and the value of publishing information and getting informa~ion out to the schools, to the young people of our Province, all around our Province.

This massive undertaking which he started upon and which we have already seen pretty classy results from in two stages, this massive undertaking should not be permitted to go uncompleted. It would be tragic, it would be very unfortunate if, for partisan considerations or whatever, members opposite do not show enough interest in this work to have the necessary support supplied. I challenge the minister, I ask the minister to Ll765 May 12, 1986 Vol XL get up and tell this House where he stands with respect to seeing this Encyclopedia of Newfoundland completed.

If he is not prepared to see it completed, shame on him! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I just want to have a couple of words on the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister Resources and Lands .. MR. SIMMS: of Forest This is mostly to respond to some of the things that the Leader of the Opposition has said about the fact that the minister and the department officials are not in communication with the people involved with . this particular project. MR. BARRY: I said 'the minister'. MR. SIMMS: I am saying the minister, too. I said the minister and his officials. MR. BARRY: Let that minister respond. MR.

SIMMS: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition might not like it, but the reason I am standing is because some of the names as introduced on this petition by the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) are from Grand Falls, my riding, and I reserve the right to speak, if I may, on this particular petition. I will not do what the Leader of the Opposition says I should so. He may be able to instruct his colleagues over there as to what to do, but he will not do it to members over here on this side of the House, as he well knows. No. 30 Rl765

Kr. Speaker, before I was so rudely interrupted by the Leader of the Opposition I was trying to make some comments that I felt were pertinent to the discussion in hand here. The minister and the officials of the department are well aware of what is going on. I can vouch for that. I was in the department myself when those discussions took place. In fact, the company Mr. Smallwood publishes his works through, the Newfoundland Book Publishers, is one of a number of publishing companies in this Province that can avail of a programme that is now in existence.

Unfortunately, the funds in that programme would not be able to address a request of this size. There is no argument about that. Up until. now, the problem has been with the amount of money that is estimated for the cost, $1. 5 million or whatever it might be. In any event, that is the major problem with it. There is a programme in place. Newfoundland Book Publishers, as I understand it - maybe the minister can confirm it - have, in fact, been able to access some funds from that programme for other projects that they have undertaken. That is fair and accessible to other publishing companies in this Province. Kr.

Speaker, I want to just make a quick comment with respect to the petition. I took a quick glance at the names on the petition. There are, in fact, eight names on the petition representing four provincial electoral districts. Now, if that is an indication of the type of support that is out there for this sort of project, I would suggest that that would not be too large. L1766 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL I represent the wishes of my constituents. I see three here who have signed this, but they certainly have not spoken to me about it. Nor has any other constituent in Grand Falls spoken to me about it.

So if there happens to be a massive undertaking by constituents in Grand Falls to ask me, as their member, to support such a request, I would be happy to accept that kind of representation and then, therefore, make the appropriate representation to the minister and to the government at the appropriate time. But, for the time being, the answer from government, obviously, has been that it cannot afford the $1.5 million that is required to undertake the project. Other than that, we would love to see it completed. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Before recognizing the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, I would like to welcome to the visitors' gallery fifteen Level 1 to 3 students from the Truman Edision Memorial in L'Anse-au-Meadows Gunner with Cove, their teacher, Bob Green. Also, we have thirty-one Grade XI students from Centennial Central High School, Victoria Cove, Gander Bay with their teachers, Wayne Witherall and Wade Parsons. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Kr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of the residents of Randall's Road in Ho. 30 R1766

Englee to present a petition to the bon. House of Assembly, St. John's, Newfoundland, regarding the upgrading and paving of the cross-country road known as Route 432. MR. BARRY: We have never heard of that one before. MR. DECKER: For ·the benefit of people who have never heard of this road, this is the sixteenth time that I have stood on behalf of various groups of people in this Province and asked that that road be upgraded and paved.

One of the WHERE.ASES says, 'Route 432, connecting the Viking Trail to the Canada Bay - Hare Bay branch, is not completely upgraded and is not paved; and 'WHEREAS the people of Eng lee totally depend on this road to import all food, f~el, building supplies and all other needs; and 'WHEREAS _ the people of Englee depend on this road to export our total production of fresh, frozen, dried or otherwise prepared fish; and 'WHEREAS the people of Englee depend on this road for ambt:tlance services to the hospital at St. Anthony.' There are other WHEREASES, Mr.

Speaker, that for expediency I will not read at this time. 'THEREFORE we, the several residents of Randall's Road in Englee, hereby pray that the bon. the House of Assembly instruct the bon. the Premier and the bon. the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) to take immediate steps to have Route 432 completely upgraded and paved.' Ll167 May -12, 1986 Vol XL Mr . Speaker, when I stand to SlJpport this petition, unlike the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) who just stood up and straddled the fence, we do not know yet whether or not he supported that petition, there is no straddling the fence for me.

I definitely support this petition, Mr. Speaker, because I know the road they are talking about. Just as recent as this weekend past, I had the opportunity - I would not say privilege, Mr. Speaker - of driving over that road. Anyone in this Province who knows what it is like in the Spring of the year when the frost starts coming out of gravel roads, anyone who knows this situation, knows the mess that we are now facing on Route 432.

Anyone in this Province, I am sure, who knows the condition of those gravel roads would consider it a disgrace that in the year 1986 the people of Englee, Englee which is a town which is 150 years old, Kr. Speaker, 150 years that community has been there on the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland, on the Northern Peninsula, and, after 150 years, Mr. Speaker, they still do not have a paved road to drive over. The man who prepared that encyclopedia, Kr. Smallwood, he did much to put gravel roads in there, but since his demise, Kr.

Speaker, the whole thing has been neglected, the roads are being allowed to fall into disrepair so that the people of that area do not have a decent road to travel over. Kr . Speaker, gravel roads are probably the biggest single problem in the district of the Strait of Belle Isle today. Road conditions are very close to the unemployment condition. The road from St. Anthony to Goose Cove, Ho. 30 Rl767

which is in another part of the Strait of Belle Isle district, is still not paved and the people who live in Goose Cove have tremendous difficulty going back and forth to St. Anthony and to other parts of the Province because of that gravel road. The people who live in Gunners Cove, the people who live in Straitsview, they, too, Kr. Speaker, do not have a paved road to travel over.

Fortunately, because of some federal money which has been injected, before this year, 1986, is over, the people in Straitsview the people in L • Anse-au-Meadows and the people in Gunners Cove will at least have the main road, which goes from Deer Lake right on up to the tip of the Peninsula, because that will finally be paved. But there are branch roads, there are side roads leading into the main road and no provision has been made to have them paved yet, Mr. Speaker. And the people who live out in Raleigh and Ship Cove and out in Cape Onion, they too are cursed with this same gravel road phenomenon. Now, Mr.

Speaker, as you can see from the tone of the last sixteen petitions that I have presented ', the people are patient, the people are reasonable, but they are asking for some indication that indeed government does care for them and that over the next few years there will be some programme put in place. The people who live in that particular part of this Province, the people who live in the Strait of Belle Isle district would like some indication that there is a programme in place so that over the next number of years there will be some paving done up in that area. You know, Mr.

Speaker, it is a fact that there are people living Ll768 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL in Englee who have never seen pavement. That is · hard to believe, but that, Sir, is a fact. There are people living in Englee today who have never seen pavement and it is those people who are . presenting this petition. I am pleased today to be able stand up, as I said, unlike the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) who straddled the fence, and say I absolutely, without any qualifications support this petition today on behalf of those people of Randall'ss Roads in Englee, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. Opposition. MR. BARRY: the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to stand to support the petition so · ably presented by the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. I suspect that there has been a new record set in the number of petitions that have been presented on one single problem by one particular member. I think the member indicated that this is the sixteenth time he has gotten up and requested the support of government, requested the attention of the minister to see that Route 432 is upgraded and paved.

Presumably the member is not expecting it to be done overnight, but would like to see it started. Even if it took a couple of years to get the work started to where upgrading commenced and then so much paving each year so that people could see that there was something happening, that would be a start. But, no, all we see is a continuation of the intolerable conditions that have existed in No. 30 Rl768

this part of the Province for too long. Mr. Speaker, I hope we will see the Minister responsible for Transportation (Mr. Dawe) or somebody opposite stand up and say that they are prepared -to make a commitment. Not just give general words of support and then throw it in the wastepaper basket, but get up and say that they are going to commit to starting this project . this year. This part of our Province has been neglected for too long and we need the attention of government.

We need a government that cares rather than one that just sits there and gives more attention to ensuring that they have a few controversial issues for election day than doing something constructive for people between elections. Now the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) just got up to shoot down another petition, a very reasonable petition.

I would ask the minister if he cannot say anything more positive on this one. to stay in his seat and let somebody else do the hatchet job, which has been the tendency of members opposite to do for this sort of reasonable request, reasonable requests that fall on deaf ears, on stony hearts; no concern, no compassion, no interest in efficiency, no interest in the fact that the quality of fish, the quality of .other products, the cost of living is ·affected by the fact that there has to be travel over these dirt roads.

So let us see members opposite stand up and make a commitment on the part of the adtninistration of which they form a part to seeing this road upgraded and paved. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Ll769 May 12, 1986 Vol XL MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I had not really intended to speak on this because on I have spoken in the past. My position is on the record. The hon. the member has presented this same petition on sixteen different occasions. He says it is the same petition, it is the same prayer.

I guess it is very convenient for him to do it today, because he has some constituents in the gallery. I am sure the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) also wants to take the opportunity to score a few points, if he can, for those constituents. The Leader of the Opposition talked about the cold hearts on this side, the stony hearts. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is ironic that he would make those kinds of comments when the party that he leads was the government of this Province for twenty-three years. I wonder why this same road was not paved then, under the people who had the more compassionate hearts? MR.

BARRY: You came to power sixteen years ago. MR. POWER: That is not bad. years out of 150. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMS: That is 134 The Leader of the Opposition had an occasion to speak, members opposite had an occasion to speak, No. 30 Rl769

now I am saying my few words. For the benefit of the people in the gallery, you only have five minutes to speak to a petition. You are not supposed to debate it. The Leader of the Opposition is sort of misleading, if he is tLying to suggest that somebody could get up on this side and commit that road. Even the member who presented the petition knows better than that. Now the position of the government, Mr. Speaker, is that we support the prayer of the petition. We have said that on numerous occasions. There are groups in Fortune Harbour, Exploits district, who need paved roads.

We support their prayers, we support their needs. There are people all over this Province, Mr. Speaker, who have not had roads paved up to now, and we support them without any question at all. The only problem with it, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, is the question of dollars. Government has to determine when going through their priorities, when determining the extent of funds that are available - MR. DOYLE: There were $180 million worth of requests made last year. MR. SIMMS: The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle), for example, has $180 million worth or requests from all over the Province for paved roads.

You cannot do them all. It is impossible. I am sure, given the compassion of this government and the ministers in this government, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) will, over a period of time, be able to address this particular request as well as many others. Mr. Speaker, I think we have, over the last few Ll770 May 12, 1986 Vol XL years in particular, shown our compassion in being able to respond to a lot of similar needs throughout this Province.

We have no problem at all in supporting the prayer of the petition and I am sure the government will act on it as soon as it is possible, . physically, fiscally and otherwise. But to suggest that we are cold hearted when the members opposite had a party that formed a government for twice as long almost and did not do it, is a bit foolish and a bit ironic. Orders of the Day DR. COLLINS: Order 3, Mr. Speaker, the Concurrence Motion, Government Services' Committee report. MR. SPEAKER: The debate was adjourned by the hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall). He has three minutes left. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the bon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) is on Her Kaj esty' s business today, and is not in attendance in the House. I do not think that I have to continue in any substantative way with his remarks merely to say that the Committee that was established looked at the various items that they were suppose to consider. Some of them went well. Some of them did not go too well. I think the whole process was a good process. It does allow for a No. 30 Rl770

better study of the estimates than any other method we have had to date. I would propose that the Committee Chairman's report be accepted. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, we, on this side, have a few more remarks to make about the departments under Government Services. When last I spoke I was making some general references to the Department of Finance, rather than specific ones, remarks more generally related to the budget.

I was making the point that though it is !audible for every government to try and reduce its deficit, what is mQre important is the method by which governments attempt to reduce the deficit. We have not seen any substantial improvement in the deficit, so I am not even sure that it is !audible in that respect. It is the minister who is concerned about the deficit. It is the P. C. Party that is forever talking about deficits. So, if they are talking about it, then one must remind .them to do something of substance. In terms of deficit reduction, we did not see any great evidence of that in this budget.

As a matter of fact, it is somewhere less than 4 per cent. The deficit last year was $51 million, this year the minister estimates that it will be $49 million. Now with this minister's propensity and inclination for Ll771 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL error, there is certainly not much room for error in this particular budget. We have seen the minister out as much $50 million and $60 million in the past.

We do not know how accurate the minister is going to be this particular fiscal year, but certainly the government did not leave too much room for error when they said they were going to reduce the deficit by $2 million, less than 4 per cent. Secondly, to elucidate on the approach used for deficit reduction, it is recognized by all economists and financiers and experts in the field that governments should reduce their deficit by reducing their expenditures, and not by increasing their revenues, which, in the main in this Province, comes through taxation.

That is what has happened with respect to the deficit reduction in this Province. Rather than cutting expenditures, the government attempted to increase their revenues through taxation. Kr. Speaker, we will have more to say about that, particularly on Private Members' Day when I have a personal member's resolution dealing with that. So, we will not rehash what I have said in that respect other than to say we have pointed out to the minister the folly of his ways and the road to disaster by increasing taxation because our people are already overtaxed.

To put any other taxation burden on them is going to result in diminishing returns. We have tried to indicate to the minister several ways by which he can relieve this vicious taxation burden that he has imposed on the people of the Province but all to no avail. We have made several recommendations here on this side No. 30 Rl771

of the House to the minister but the minister lacks the political will and the imagination to try and get into the new areas of tax reduction and to give this economy the opportunity by which to grow. Obviously, if the economy and the finances of this Province expand, that is naturally going to reflect itself in jQb creation. But the minister is afraid of that approach. He genuinely demonstrates that he is an ultra right wing Conservative.

The minister certainly illustrates that by deed and by word and by action and by everything we can think about, by not taking these very practical, aggressive and worthwhile suggestions into account and trying to do something to really improve the economy of the Province. So, Kr. Speaker, more on that at a later time. I want to talk about another area that is of tremendous concern to me relat~d to both the Department of Transportation and the Department of Municipal Affairs. I want to again object to a system of granting monies which the Auditor General refers to as block funding.

The Auditor General specifically refers to block funding used in the Department of Transportation with respect to allocating capital funds for the construction of roads throughout the Province. The Auditor General does not believe in that system of block funding. The Auditor General believes that the items should be more detailed and that the areas and the conununi ties receiving capital funding for road construction, upgrading and the like should be specified. Why the Auditor General did not make the same ruling with respect to the Department · of Municipal Affairs I do not know.

Maybe he Ll772 May 12, 1986 Vol XL will do it in this particular report. Maybe in this report he will make recommendations about that because both are block funding. What block funding means is taking a large amount of money, $25 to $30 million and allocating that under that general term 'road construction' and not a single member in the House of Assembly knows exactly where that money is going to be spent. Mr. Speaker, that is undemocratic. That is unparliamentary. Members should certainly know where that money is going to be spent rather than giving the government a blank cheque to play games with.

The government has been insistent that they are not playing political games with the roads money in this Province. Well, if the government has nothing to hide, let them come out with a list. Mr. Speaker, is it too much to ask that that list be prepared in time for Committee debates? The Auditor General certainly does not believe that it is. The Auditor General believes that that is the right, democratic, parliamentary way to debate the estimates of the Department of Finance.

And I would expect that we can translate that, or I expect that we can make these remarks analogous for the Department of Municipal Affairs, under two headings. The Department Affairs has two of Municipal systems of granting money; one is the guaranteed loans given to municipalities for the installation of water and sewer. Mr. Speaker, again, we approve Just a large, block of funds. We just approve in this House a certain amount of money. I think generally it falls in the area of No. 30 Rl772

about $30 million for guaranteed loans to municipalities or installation or extension of water and sewer systems. AN HON. MEMBER: Roads. MR. LUSH: No, the roads allocation is a different one. I took the roads to be the 60/40 arrangement, which is not a guaranteed loan. It is a grant, with the government giving 60 per cent and the municipality providing 40 per cent. I do not want to get into the firefighting at this moment, Mr. Speaker, because the firefighting is so insignificant in terms of the amount of money voted. I think again , we are only talking about $500,000 when we are talking about firefighting.

That certainly is a big issue in this Province. What I could say about firefighting is that the government does not allocate a large enough vote to meet the needs of this Province. But that is for another debate, not for this one. I want to talk about the block funding for guaranteed loans and the grants for municipal road construction, the 60/40 arrangement. Kr. Speaker, the strange thing about both of these is that, in the first instance, the government is not giving money, municipalities are taking upon themselves the responsibility to pay back these loans.

That is certainly all the more reason why they can be announced in the Legislature. There is no particular favour. They are paying the bills themselves. So, hon. Kr. Speaker, it members cannot Ll773 Kay 12, 1986 seems to me debate these Vol XL expenditures intelligently and they cannot justify debating them when they do not know where these huge sums of money are going to be spent.

I want to re-emphasize and reiterate that I think it is unparliamentary, that we are not doing justice to democracy and the people of this Province are not well served when the members on both sides do not know where these moneys are going to be spent. Now, if the government have nothing to hide, why do they not have that list ready? That, Mr. Speaker, will prove their seriousness. That will prove that they have confidence in themselves as a government. That will prove that they are not afraid to hold up their estimates to scrutiny and to detailed study. Mr. Speaker, I hope that the Minister of Forestry (Mr.

Simms) is listening very intently, and I hope that, by next year, we will have made the point sufficiently strong enough to members opposite that they will do away with this block funding and come to the committees prepared with the list in three areas - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. LUSH: I will conclude - in three areas: one, in transportation, giving ·the list of areas that will receive capital funding for upgrading and construction of roads and, in Municipal Affairs, for areas that will receive guaranteed loans and that will receive funding under the municipal 60/40 programme.

I trust that ministers will take these words of advice seriously, Mr. Speaker, so that we can truly No. 30 Rl773

become a true democracy. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I want to take a few minutes to speak in this Concurrence Debate on the Government Services Committee. There are a whole bunch of departments involved here and the speaking rules, I gather, are ten, ten and ten so, if I want to speak on a whole bunch of these departments, obviously you would not have time in ten minutes. AN HON. MEMBER: True. MR. SIMMS: The bon. member agrees. There.are a couple of areas that I want to refer to.

Municipal Affairs in particular is one department that I want to address. The Department of Transportation is another area about which I want to talk but particularly the Municipal Affairs Department estimates firstly. I just want to lead into it and let the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) gather his thoughts on this. We have heard a lot, of course, in recent days from the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) who has, I guess, initially raised this whole question of partisan funding. Partisan funding, I guess, is the easiest way to · refer to the issue. I am sure everybody knows what I am referring to.

The government is accused of providing funds to districts and to councils based on their political Ll774 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL allegiance. Mr. Speaker, that is a great argument to make, especially if you are an ineffective member and cannot seem to get anything done, that is the easiest argument to make. Since the member for Kenihek raised that initially, and then decided to send petitions around to community councils to get them to support him, we have now seen the Liberal Opposition starting to pick up on this because they think that the member for Kenihek is getting a bit of mileage out of it.

The new Municipal Affairs critic, my old friend fr'om Grand Falls who represents the district of Burgeo-Bay d' Espoir (Mr. Gilbert), has recently been asking the same kind of questions. Mr. Speaker, bon. members opposite can make those kind of claims and the people may listen to it or they may not listen to it but the fact of ' the matter is that the Department of Municipal Affairs and this government have, in fact, provided millions and millions of dollars in recent years to assist various towns to improve their services and all of them, every one that we have assisted and provided funds for, are in need.

Their request is as legitimate as one request from the member opposite for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford), who may not get addressed. My whole point is that it does not matter if you are the Liberal member for Port de Grave representing that district. That is not the criteria that is used by the department to make the decisions because thet"e at"e so many. The bon. member' opposite just acknowledged that there at"e so·many r'equests but the ones that get addt"essed are just as badly No. 30 Rl774

needed as those that do not get ~ddressed. However, you can only address so many with the resources that you have, Mr. Speaker. I think that is a reasonable comment for anybody to make and easy to understand. I am sure as time goes on and as government increases its resources or the availability of its resources, it will be able to address other requests that do not get addressed at the present time. Mr.

Speaker, I hasten to point out for the benefit of my friend from Port de Grave in particular, there are members on this side who have communities looking for pavement or road improvements under this 60/40 programme or looking for firefighting equipment or water and sewerage projects. They do not all get approved. The insinuation is that all the ones over here get approved and all the ones over there do not get approved. Mr. Speaker, the facts just do not bear that out and it is an unfair criticism.

Again, it is a reasonable kind of position for a member to take if he is not getting anywhere, especially if he is in Opposition, attack the government and blame it on the government. MR. DOYLE: He is not representation district. MR. SIMMS: making on behalf adequate of his Exactly. That is one of the other criteria that is used. Decisions are based on the quality of the representation made to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle), in addition to the needs of the communities in question. L1775 Hay 12, 1986 Vol XL Now, Kr.

Speaker, I want to also briefly comment on the Department of Transportation estimates and along the same lines. Oh, by the way, I wanted to point out to hon. members that I have been talking to the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) wondering when he is going to present his next petition, the one that criticizes the programme and the way it works and alleges that it is politic ally partisan because I have one ready to present myself.

It is from a community council which says, in essence, that the programme, as administered by the Department of Municipal Affairs and the Minister of Municipal Affairs, is a very .fair programme and, in fact, commends the minister and the department on the work that they are doing and practically tears apart the arguments made by the member for Menihek.

I figure if the member for Mehihek can get up and present a petition that says, "All the monies are going to Tory districts and none going to Liberals and this is all politicaily partisan and we do not agree with the programme and the process as it works,'' which is what his petitions say, I can get up and present one from a council that says , ''We do agree with the programme and we think it is a very fair programme and it is working. We have to understand that there is only so much money to go around. •• Members opposite will get their share of funds, as they have in the past. The member for Kenihek (Mr.

Fenwick) acknowledged to me that communities in his constituency last year did get some assistance, not last year, I am sorry, not this past fiscal No. 30 Rl775

year, the fiscal year before that. I mean, you "cannot get money every year. He tries to say then, "Well, that is because it was a Tory district two years ago." That may have had nothing to do .with it, Mr. Speaker. It had nothing to do with it. AN HON. MEMBER: No! MR. SIMMS: Kay have had nothing to do with it. I do not know because I was not in on that particular decision at the time, but I somehow doubt it. I somehow doubt it.

There are communities on this side of the House, as I pointed out, who also have representatives on the government side who are not getting their requests addressed because there just is not enough money to go around. So members should be responsible in their representations. They should make their concerns known to the Municipal Affairs Minister (Mr. Doyle). I do not know how many members over there have taken the time to call the minister up and ask if they can pop over and sit down. MR. FENWICK: They are laughing at you. MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): Order, please! MR.

SIMMS: How many have gone over and sat down with him for fifteen or twenty minutes, had a cup of coffee with him in his office, went through the concerns - MR. FUREY: A cup of tea. MR. SIMMS: Ll776 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL A cup of tea, in the member for St. Barbe's case. MR. DOYLE: I am always available to all my colleagues. MR. SIMMS: The minister is available. How many members over there have actually taken the time to call you up and come over and sit down? Tell me the truth. MR. DOYLE: I think it was about four or five. MR. SIMMS: They sat down with you privately in your office and went through your concerns. MR.

DOYLE: Four. MR. SIMMS : Four, and tlfe have fifteen or sixteen on that side. Right? So, Mr. Speaker, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not the proof of the pudding is in the pudding, as Mr. Marshall says. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, that is all members have to do, continue to make responsible representations to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle), continue to deal with their constituents and their community councils in a legitimate, reasonable and responsible way and do not mislead them. Do not provide them with ineffective representation.

Do not get up and just complain you did not get it because 'the Tories are in power and I am a Liberal' so they will not give it to you. That does not help your case at all. That is kind of silly. I would not even do that. No. 30 Rl776

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member has about two minutes left. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I was just getting started. I will be back at it but I will conclude now. I have two minutes. I want to talk about the Department of Transportation's estimates and the programme that is administered by my colleague, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) and the work that he has done. Mr. Speaker, we had occasion Saturday to drive from Corner Brook to Port aux Basques for a meeting that we had over there. Mr.

Speaker, that stretch of highway has got to be one of the best stretches of highway I have ever seen in this Province. SOME HOV. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, that highway passes through Port au Port riding which, until a year or a year and a half ago, was r~resented - AV HOV. MEMBER: Port au Port? MR. SIMMS: Oh yes. It serves the Port au Port people, that is what I am saying. It was a Liberal riding or had been until a year and a half ago when our colleague saw the light and came over with us. It was built when it was represented by a Liberal. It served the people of the Port au Port area.

It also served the people of LaPoile district which Ll777 May 12, 1986 Vol XL was a Liberal stronghold in this Province. So to argue that those funds are spent strictly in a partisan way and strictly in areas that serve people who support the Conservative Party is just not a logical nor a legitimate suggestion or argument. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I will come back to it. I see Your Honour giving me a one minute warning. I will try to conclude in the minute that I have remaining. That is the point I wanted to make, Mr. Speaker. Those are false arguments. Members will continue to use them.

I think that members should be a little more effective in their representations. The bon. member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) is anxious to get one of my coffee mugs. I have invited him over now over a year. He has never come over, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member's time has expired. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for st. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Kr. Speaker, I will pass to the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) because he has to go somewhere. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: I thank my colleague from St. Barbe. Mr.

Speaker, I want to have five or ten minutes in this debate as well on the Concurrence motion. Mr. Speaker, the member who just took his seat, the Ho. 30 Rl777

Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Sirmns), knows what he is saying is nonsense when he talks about the fact that if an bon. member does not get anything for his or her district, it is because they have not . been lobbying the minister and is not being an effective member. Nothing can be further from the truth, Mr. Speaker. The minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) , who is in his seat now and the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) who is just entering the Legislature, know full well that the people in Markland, for example, have made representation after representation.

I was there with them on their picket lines. I presented petitions in the Legislature and they came · in as delegations and we sat down with successive Ministers of Transportation. I go back to the bon. Mr. Morgan, when he was Minister of Highways, the hon. Mr. Brett, when he was the minister and Mr. Bill Doody, who is now a senator in Ottawa, when he was Minister of Transportation and so on and on the list goes. It has nothing to do with representation, it has nothing to do with that. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr.

Doyle) knows full well that the people in Whitbourne last year came in here and they sat down with the minister - I was with them - and they asked the minister for some help with their municipal problems in Whi tbourne and nothing was done. It was not due to a lack of representation by me, the member, or the members of the town council in Whi tbourne. It had nothing to do with it, Mr. Speaker. Nothing can be further from the truth. It is a red herring that ministers Ll778 May 12, 1986 Vol XL like the minister from Grand Falls (Mr. · Sirmns) brings in half humourously.

He is laughing through his teeth as he says it because he knows that it is not true. How, Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to say this: I did not attend very many meetings of these committees. I did not attend very many meetings. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), who left and is back again now, is always within ear shot I am sure. Mr. Speaker, I have tried every tactic in the book while representing the district of Bellevue for almost ten years.

I have used every tactic in the book to try and get improved road conditions for the people in Markland, Hodge's Cove, Little ­ Heart' s Ease and Hillview and nothing sensible seems to work .. It looks now, Kr. Speaker, I am happy to say today, you can catch more flies with honey than you can vinegar. So I did not attend the Committee meetings for was one reason in particular. I knew that if I attended I would have lost my patience and lost my temper listening to some of the arguments that are always forthcoming from the ministers.

They talk about the Joey Smallwood days and it should have been done then when they know full well, Mr. Speaker, that during the twenty-three years that Joey and the Liberals were in power, they had to build the roads that the people now are looking to be paved. Some of the roads, Mr. Speaker, were not even built during Mr. Smallwood's days. If they were built, they were not built up to pavement standards. No. 30 Rl778

The road from Southwest Arm to Hodge's Cove and Southport is a prime example of that, Mr. Speaker. I happy to say - and the Minister of Transportation is in the Legislature - I had a call last week from one community in my district and I am told that the Roads Committee in that particular area have a public notice up in some of · the stores announcing the fact that they have been promised, or at least they have been told, that they are going to get $250,000 this year. The minister knows full well that it was since Christmas or within the last three months that that same roads commit tee came in here to St.

John' s and sat down with the minister on the sixth floor, I think it was, of this building and it looks as though their efforts have produced some result~. I have been told quietly do not go making any public announcements because, if you do, the money could be taken from us again. Now that is the insidious and childish way that some members of this administration behave, Mr. Speaker.

I might also say that I also received some phone calls a week or more ago telling me that there is going to be some pavement laid on the other side, opposite Hillview, on the · Hodges Cove Road that leads to the dead-end at Southport. But when people ask me, I have told them, 'Well, I have not been told anything. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) has not told me anything. I hope that you do get the payment that is being rumoured and that is being talked about.' I believe they will. If the minister does Ll779 May 12, 1986 Vol XL not want me to get any credit for it, I. could not care less.

If he wants to make sure that Captain Morrisey Johnson or some other Tory gets the credit, then I could not care less. All I am concerned about, Mr. Speaker, is that they get some pavement. Mr. Speaker, my colleague for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush), who took his seat earlier, was talking about block funding in the Department of Transportation. That is the appropriate word too, Mr. Speaker, 'block' funding. The funding is blocked from Liberal districts and it has been - MR. WARREN: No way! No way! MR. CALLAN: - channelled into Tory districts. That is why it is called blocked funding probably.

It is blocked from Liberal districts. MR. WARREN: That is not true. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member has a little over two minutes left. MR. SIMMONS: By leave! MR. CALLAN: We will see if leave is granted when we come to it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in the Department of Municipal Affairs, the minister is over there and he is not smiling about what I am saying, I am sure of that. But the minister also knows that the Minister of Forest Ho. 30 R1779

Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) is not being truthful when he says, that it is the lack of representation. MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): Order, please! I have to remind the hon. he is skating on thin ice when he says another hon. member is not being truthful. That comes very close to accusing the hon. member, you know, of lying or deceiving the House or something like that. I have to remind him. I realize the hon. member did not accuse the hon. minister, but he is coming very close, and I remind him of that. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a friendly reminder. But anyway, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands is not telling it the way it is because the Minister of ·Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) knows full well that the town council in my hometown of Norman's Cove, whether I have been there with them or whether they have been alone, they have made representation after representation and it has gone on long before I came in this Legislature in 1975. It went on before that and it has continued for the ten years that I have been here. It continued for the year and a half or so that the hon. Don Jamieson was the member representing Bellevue, and still, Mr.

Speaker, there is no commitment to provide water and sewer for the town of Norman's Cove - Long Cove even though that town was incorporated back in 1971, fifteen years ago, Mr. Speaker. I know of towns that have been incorporated since then and these towns do not have the serious water and sewer problems Ll780 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL that my hometown has, but they got overlooked because of this -· block funding. The funding was blocked from that particular town in my district because they happen to be Liberals or they happen to live in a Liberal district. MR. PEACH: It must be Norris Cove. MR.

CALLAN: Not Norm's, Norman's. It is not really. It is half-and- half. MR. PEACH: You have won it as often as we lost it. MR. CALLAN: Actually you have never won it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member should now try to conclude his remarks. MR. CALLAN: Okay, Kr. Speaker. Perhaps leave will be granted. Mr. Speaker, perhaps, as I said just now, the fact that it looks like my district this year will be getting some pavement, there could be a couple of reasons for it. Perhaps the government is .starting to see the light. Perhaps the government is starting to realize that 'We are not winning, you know.

We are not winning by using this 'I dare you' tactic, 'I dare you to vote Liberal. If you do, you get nothing.' Perhaps the government is changing its tactics, and there may be other ulterior motives. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: No. 30 Rl780

Whatever the motives may be, Mr. Speaker, the fact that the towns that are paying these taxes are getting some of it back in the form of pavement in their towns is good news indeed. I have heard, as I said, rumors about pavement and money being expended to upgrade some roads in my distr:ict. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member's time has expired. MR. CALLAN: By leave. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: No, no. MR. SPEAKER: There is no leave. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I will continue some other time. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, it is really unusual and somewhat astounding to sit here and to listen to bon. gentlemen opposite get on with the type of comments that they are making with respect to the distribution of capital funding under the Department of Municipal Affairs. I really have to stand up, Mr. Speaker, to support what the member for Grand Falls said a moment ago.

He was eminently sensible in the comments that he did make because I think he hit the nail right on the head, in one Ll781 May 12, 1986 Vol XL comment that he made a few minutes ago, when he said that the .crux of the matter is that we are getting far more requests that we are capable of filling with the allocation of capital monies that we have each year. I believe that says it all, Mr. Speaker, because last year we had approximately $175 million in requests from various municipalities around the Province and we had a capital programme of roughly $30 million. So that indicates to me, Mr.

Speaker, as it would to all gentlemen in the House, that certain municipalities will be disappointed and will not receive funding when you are talking about the numbers of requests that we do get. This year, Kr. Speaker, I could make bon. gentlemen aware, we have requests that are totalling approximately $180 million, and we do have over 400 municip~lities in the Province, and a capital programme which will be in the vicinity of between $25 and $30 million. That indicates to me again, Kr.

Speaker, that obviously there will be a number of municipalities around the Province which will not receive funding again this year. Mr. Speaker, I think I have made it quite clear i_n this House of Assembly and I have made it quite clear to hon. gentlemen opposite at the Committee stage, that the Department of Municipal Affairs has not - and I can only speak for the time that I have been there - practiced discrimination against any municipality in this Province. I have tabled a list for the bon. gentleman for Kenihek (Mr. Fenwick) and I have given a list as well to the hon. member for Gander (Mr.

Baker), and that indicates, I believe, Kr. Speaker, beyond a shadow of doubt that there is no discrimination No. 30 R1781

practised by the department toward any municipality. It is unfortunate, of course, that some municipalities have to be turned down. I do not have the figures available to me right now, but last year I would imagine there were just as many communities in districts that are represented by bon. members on this side of the House turned down for funding as there were communities that are represented by the gentlemen opposite. MR. SIMMS: The are insinuating that the only ones turned down are on that side, and that is not true. MR. DOYLE: Of course. Well, Mr.

Speaker, again I tabled a list a few weeks back which indicated that there is no discrimination being practised. This year, for instance, on that list that I tabled, we had giveri funding of $100, 000 to Appleton to meet some of the problems that they have been having in trying to get funding approved. Out in Badger's Quay we had $250, 000 approved and that is out, I believe, in the bon. member for Bonavista North' s (Hr. Lush) district. Down in the district of Port de Grave, there were $460,000 approved for Bay Roberts to continue their water and sewer project after the election.

In the distric~ of Twillingate, we had a number of projects approved down there; a small one in Bay View of about $20,000, out in Cottlesville approximately $300,000, out in Durrell $13,000, and on and on this goes, Mr. Speaker. In Belleoram, for . instance, in the member's district of Burgeo d'Espoir, we had $215,000 approved for a project down there. Out in Port de Grave, again, in Clarke's Ll782 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL Beach, there was $269,000 approved. That really smacks of discrimination, does it not, Hr. Speaker? OUt in Cottlesville, in the district of Twillingate, we had $300,000 approved after the election.

In Bonavista North, the bon. gentleman who just got up a few minutes ago lambasting the department for its distribution of capital monies, in Dover we approved $330,000 for a water and sewer project out there. In Twillingate, again, in the town of Durrell, there was a project approved. I do not have the figures available to me right now. Again, in Fortune-Hermitage, down in Sandyville, $350,000 were approved for a project. Out in Hilltown, Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir, another big project approved for $330,000 after the election. Down in Fogo, in Musgrave Harbour, $245,000 were approved.

OUt in Norman's Cove - Long Cove, the bon. gentleman who stood up a moment ago saying he had never received any funding for Norman's Cove-Long Cove, there was a project approved out there last year as well, and I can get him the figures on that. In Northwest River we had $330,000 approved last year for, I believe, a water and sewer project. In Fortune-Hermitage, down in St. Bernard's, $500, 000 were approved for a water and sewer project. Out in the district of Twillingate, again in Summerford, $300,000 were approved for a project out there. In Terrenceville, money approved; Twillingate proper, money approved.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER There are going on. difficult No. 30 (Hickey): a couple of meetings Order, please! It is to hear the hon. Rl782

minister. MR. DOYLE: Out in Wesleyville, Mr. • Speaker, we had $200,000 approved for a project, after the election, incidentally; not before the election, after the election. Out in Windsor-Buchans, also last year, we had $400,000 fo.r a project approved as well. And I could go on and on and on, Mr. Speaker, just to show that what the hon. gentlemen opposite are saying is absolutely untrue. If that is not an unparliamentary term to use, I will say it is absolutely untrue what the hon. · gentlemen are saying. Now those are the water and sewer projects, Mr. Speaker.

It was well after the election that we had the community water service vote approved, which goes to unincorporated communities. MR. SIMMS: Liberals and Tories. MR. DOYLE: Liberals, Tories, NDP, it does not matter, Mr. Speaker. We do not discriminate. We had projects approved in Bellevue, Gander, Buchans Junction, Deadman's Bay, Francois, Green Island Brook, Herring Neck, Main Point, Davidsville, two in Queen's Cove, Thornlea, and Tizzard's Harbour, all in bon. gentlemen's ·.districts opposite. And if they want a copy of that they can have it right now, if they want the Clerk to run off a copy of it. So, Mr.

Speaker, there is no discrimination being used against any municipality in the Province. Now the bon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) a few moments ago got up and said there is a certain Ll783 May 12, 1986 Vol XL amount of block funding that goes to the Department of Municipal Affairs and there is absolutely no reason why we cannot right now approve that funding because the municipalities are paying back the full shot. Now, Mr. Speaker, obviously he really does not understand the system and he does not understand the difference between a grant and a guaranteed· loan.

Just because we say 'guaranteed loans,' Mr. Speaker, does not really indicate that the municipality pays back 100 per cent of that loan. As a matter of fact, the government pays back in the neighbourhood of 85 per cent of that guaranteed loan . . What the municipality is required to contribute each year toward the retirement of that debt would be a minimum contribution of 20 per cent of its fixed revenues, not 20 per cent of the value of the loan, but 20 per cent o~ its fixed revenues toward the retirement of debt.

Now that is a little bit misleading for the hon. gentleman to say that the municipality pays back the full shot anyway, so why do they not make the announcements on the municipalities money? Well, we have listed all of the municipalities' money. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member has about two minutes. MR. DOYLE: It is about 85 per cent paid off by the Government of the Province and the municipality makes a contribution of approximately 20 per cent of its fixed revenues toward the retirement of the debt. So the hon. member for No. 30 Rl783

Bonavista North is obviously wrong in his assessment of how the guaranteed loan and the grant system work. So, Mr. Speaker, again I want to say that there will once more this year be municipalities in the Province who will be disappointed that they will not receive funding, but I think that is par for the course when you consider the fact that we have $180 million worth of requests again this year and a capital programme of anywhere between $25 million to $30 million.

But, hopefully, we will be able to address most of the serious problems , and most of the priori ties tha t have been identified by the engineering department. We are working diligently, as a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, on trying to have reinstated once again some of the old federal programmes, the Neighbourhood Improvement Programme and the COSP Programme and what have you, which had the federal government involved to a certain extent in cost-sharing some major projects that had been identified as being needed around the Province, and Port aux Basques • water system is a prime example of that, and also the problems that they are having in Gander with the sewage treatment plant. Once again, this year, in the 1986-1987 budget, the government has conuni tted $800,000 towards the cost of the Gander sewage treatment plant.

Hon. gentlemen opposite lmow all about it, but, still, nobod:r mentioned the fact that the town of Gander happens to be represented by one of the gentlemen opposite. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. the minister's time has L1784 May 12 , 1986 Vol XL expired. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I think that indicates beyond any shadow of a doubt that there is no discrimination being practiced in the department. X MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the member for st. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr.

Speaker, we must have been saying something truthful on this side because we just witnessed the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) spend ten minutes defending his government's position with respect to municipal grants. Then, we saw the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Hr. Doyle) rise · in his place and spend ten minutes defending his government.• s position with respect to these grants. So, what we had were two Cabinet ministers for twenty minutes telling this hon.

House of Assembly, in defence of themselves, that, 'No, boys, we are not pork barrelling. ' Then, we hear the minister stand, almost unbelievably, in his place, and read a list of election promises, Kr. Speaker, promises which were made to Tory members representing Tory districts, on the public record, during the election. Now, I did not hear a Liberal district uttered in those promises, which, Mr. Speaker, had to be fulfilled, otherwise the minister could not stand there because he would have to say that his Premier misled the people of those districts. Well, I can tell you, Hr.

Speaker, one district in which this Premier misled the people, and that was No. 30 Rl784

the district of St. Barbe, which had a Tory member. And the Premier went in and personally told them, Kr. Speaker, in . Daniel's Harbour, that he would commit $350,000 to the water and sewer problem there. Has that promise been kept? No, Mr. Speaker, that promise has been broken, and that is why it is not on the list. It is not on the list because the project was not started. We heard a litany of election promises, Kr. Speaker, in defence of the minister, saying that they have gone to Liberal districts.

Well, they went to Liberal districts because the Tories were flicked out of those districts and Liberals were put in those districts, and the promises had to be upheld or the minister would appear to be misleading the people of this Province as his leader misled the people of St. Barbe, Kr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would remind the bon. member again - I think I realize the intent of what he is saying - he cannot say through the backdoor what the rules will not permit through the front door.

You cannot accuse an bon. member, whether it is the Premier or any other bon. member, of deliberately misleading anybody inside or outside the House. KR. FUREY: Kr. Speaker, I could ask whether the Premier lied to these people, but I will not do that. KR. SPEAKER: That word is unparliamentary. The bon. member knows that. He also knows what I just said. SOME HON. MEMBERS: L1785 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL Oh, oh! KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! KR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, the point that I am trying to make, and it has obviously hit a nerve because we got some reaction over there, is that a numQer of promises were made.

Now, we heard a litany of those promises which were kept by · the Tory government to their supposedly Tory members who were flicked out, Kr. Speaker. You know, Kr. Speaker, there are bluffs, then there are colossal bluffs! To listen to the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Kr. Simms) stand there today on two separate occasions skating and slipping and slithering and sliding around whether he would support the petition to extend funding to the former Premier Smallwood's very scholarly encyclopedia - what a wishy-washy, colossal bluff ! Then, Kr.

Speaker, he stands in his place and he says, in defence of the mouthpiece · behind him, the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) , • He is some good minister and here is why. ' Ten full minutes defending, Kr. Speaker, that minister• s actions; $10.4 million was allocated, $10.2 million went to Tory districts; fifty-four projects, Kr. Speaker, fifty-two to Tory districts. There is a line in Shakespeare you should take a lesson from, "Kethinks thou dost protest too much. " Mr.

Speaker, there is in elementary logic, something that the minister knows very little about and the Minister of Zinc knows very little about, called a false dicotomy, Kr. Speaker, that is to say, you present two options and there are no other options. What are the two options he No. 30 Rl785

presented? (

a) We did not pork ·barrel; and (

b) we gave to Liberal districts. What a false dicotomy, what a false set of illusions. He is running away, he does not even want to hear it it is so phoney-baloney, almost like Mulroney. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that a number of districts were giv~n promises by the Premier and by Cabinet ministers throughout this Province. We saw a list of those that were kept. Boy, would I ever love to · see the list of the unkept ones, the unkept promises, the broken promises, the electioneering, Mr. Speaker! We saw this leader, this Premier, during the election and after the election, we saw him the other day MR.

DOYLE: The Premier is a man of his word. MR. FUREY: A man of his word? He has no credibility left, none. To stand here and admit in this Assembly that in 1980 he misled the Canadian people, he postured on the railway, how can we ever believe him again? How can we ever believe his ministers again? Did he posture on FFTs? Did he posture on the NAPE strike? • If you take down the pickets and go back to work, I will have an agreement within forty-eight hours that you will be happy with.' Bull-you-know-what, Mr. Speaker. Bull-you-know-what. Was he posturing then?

Was he misleading those people then as he was during the election? I can tell you that that Premier came to St. Barbe district - MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. FUREY: Ll786 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, offered road - MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): Order, please! Order! Order, please! Will the bon. member take his seat? There is a point of order. The bon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr .

Speaker, it has been a well-established fact here, and it has been reiterated several times in the last week or so, that there are quite a lot of things we are not allowed to say in this House, and quite properly, I am sure. MR. DECKER: And you should know. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. J. CARTER: Yes, we all admit our mistakes and I think we should perhaps learn from them. One of the things that has been established, Kr. Speaker, is that you cannot call another person a liar, nor can you call a person a liar indirectly. No matter how much you beat around the bush, yo~ cannot call a person a liar.

Now the member who was speaking, who has the floor, has been calling the Premier a liar in so many words · and, Mr. Speaker, I do not have to explain to you how he has been try to do it. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that you invite him either to take his seat, certainly to apologize, and also not to do it again. No. 30 Rl786

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Does the bon. member wish to speak to the point of order? Order, please! I did not hear a direct statement by the bon. member. I cautioned the bon. member earlier that he cannot · say through the backdoor what the rules will not permit through the front, so if he has in any way referred to any bon. member, including the bon. the Premier as telling lies or being a liar, then he should retract those words. The bon. the member for st. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, obviously we are hitting a nerve on the other side because what I am doing, Mr.

Speaker, is telling, myself, the truth about what happened in the election. And I only raised it because the- Minister of Municipal Affairs raised the list of election promises made to Tory members who were trying to get re-elected and got booted out on their asses, Mr. Speaker. So, what I am saying, Mr. Speaker, is this - KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! I have to remind the bon. gentleman that he has to watch his language. Some words are parliamentary and some words are not. MR. FUREY: Sorry, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Is •ass• unparliamentary? Ll787 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL MR.

DAWE: Yes, 'ass' is unparliamentary. Any jackass would know that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is that if - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FUREY: - can I have some protection, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member has about three minutes left. He should be allowed to continue, to wind up his speech. MR. FUREY: Thank you very much, Kr. Speaker. Can I have protection, please? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member has asked to be heard in silence. Please accord him that right. · The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr.

Speaker, we hear the hon. Minister of Pavement on the backbench squawking back there. He is famous for going on provincial television, in fro;( of everybody, on the news saying~- Mr. Speaker, he could deal better with his friends than he could with his enemies. What a narrow-minded, silly, little partisan politician that is! Minister! A disgrace. An absolute utter disgrace for the Province, that is what he is, Mr. Speaker, quite frankly. So what we are talking about, Mr. Speaker, is during the election we No. 30 Rl787

saw the Premier, and everybody has to be their own judge on this, you know-MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has two minutes to conclude. MR. FUREY: We saw the Premier come into St. Barbe, we saw him offer $1.2 million to pave the road to Shoal Cove, the road to New Ferrole, the Loop Road around St. Barbe, and we saw him promise $350,000 for the water and sewer at Daniel's Harbour. We saw him make, through his then minister of Culture Recreation and Sport, recreations for - MR. MATTHEWS: What? MR. FUREY: Not you. You were not there then, you were in the backbench.

The current minister was on the backbench juggling footballs, trying to get into the Cabinet at that time. MR. MATTHEWS: I did a pretty good job, did I not? KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: You are doing pretty good, butyou have .to learn to juggle your budget a little better. What we are seeing, Kr. Speaker, was a Premier come in and offer a number of promises to the people of St. · Barbe. Now that was thirteen months ago. I leave it to your own individual consciences, buti know how the people of St. Barbe feel, Mr. Speaker. I know that they feel betrayed.

I know that they ·feel Ll788 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL dishonoured and I know that they will never fall into the trap of the Peckford promises and posturing ever again, Mr. Speaker. Because we are seeing the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, the Minister of Municipal Affairs getting up in their little miniature ministers' wars. mimicing their leader. "How can I posture better than Brian?' MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member should conclude his remarks. His time has expired .. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, they are getting up there saying, 'Now, how can out posture Brian Peckford?

Because he is some good at posturing. He postured on the railway. He postured on FFTs - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! KR. FUREY: he postured on this current railway, and he will posture on promises during the election, Mr. Speaker, because politics come first, people come last. And all of them are playing the same silly, sick, little partisan Tory games. :X: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member•s time has expired. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I do not think any reference is necessary to the two No. 30 Rl788

words that I have said before. But I would like to report . to the House that not only are there some Liberal districts that are somewhat neglected but unfortunately there are some P. C. districts neglected as well, and I will quote my own district of St. John's North as being an example. And for the record there is a particular stretch of road that I have been trying to get paved in St. John's North for the last two years, maybea year and a half, and it is not done yet, nor is there any plan to do it in the near future, and I find this unfortunate. It is a piece of the old railway track.

When the railway was first built in Newfoundland, the railway station was at the East End of the Harbour, and the railway track went through what then was the Northern boundary of St. John's. When the railway track was taken up, since it was a level, contoured. carefully graded right-of-way, it very quickly became a useable and useful road. Of course, it began life as a ballasted railway line, so there did not need to be much improvement, except widening, to inake it a useful road. It joined the existing railway line somewhere West Qf the junction of Blackmarsh Road and Topsail Road.

It is this last piece of the old railway line that has yet to be paved. It has not been done this year and it is not slated to be done. Members opposite may complain that certain districts are left out because they are Liberal districts but here is an example of a PC district that has not been given the maximum coverage. KR. BARRY: They just cannot remember it. Ll789 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL KR. J. CARTER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Kr. Barry) can hurl insults if he likes, but the fact remains that this is an exception that perhaps proves the rule.

The difficulty is that any request for repairs to streets in the St. John's area, especially within the municipal boundary of St. John's, has to be filtered through the city council. They are the ones who make the decisions. .So I cannot take the full responsibility for not being able to get this road paved. Some of it has to be shared by the city council. However, I would like to assure members that I am making vigorous representation to have this road paved. I hope it will be done.

But I would like to point out that it is wrong for them to suggest that only Liberal districts are not getting the kind of services they want, it can even happen to a PC district.. It ma.y come as a shock to some members but I would like to state it for the record. I am not happy about it. I am doing what I can to change it and I am sure it will be attended to in the reasonably near future. I would like to bring this up and this was the point of my few remarks. So I will sit down and allow the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir to stand. KR. SPEAKER (Greening): The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. KR.

GILBERT: Thank you, Kr. Speaker. I thank the member for St. John's North (Kr. J. Carter) for giving me the opportunity to speak after him. It is always a pleasure to speak after him. No. 30 R1789

Kr. Speaker, we heard the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Sinuns) stand up today and insinuate that the member for Menihek (Kr. Fenwick) was the first person who mentioned the famous list of the Department of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) .. My colleague from Gander (Mr. Baker), when he was the critic for Municipal Affairs last year, tried to get this now famous list from the Minister of Municipal Affairs several times throughout the year. As a matter of fact, he even resorted to the Freedom of Informations Act to see if he could get the information. For some reason it was never available.

I understand that the member for Menihek got from the minister and from sources outside never been identified. some of it some of it that have If the list is as the minister says it is, straightforward, and it is done according to the need and priority there, the question I ask is why. does the minister feel that it has to be hidden and why does he feel that it cannot be published until after the House is closed, sometimes in September or October or something? The year is over and the grarits are made before it becomes available.

This, to me, seems to defeat the argument that the minister is making, that it is done on a priority basis and it is done according to need. My colleague from St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) alluded to the fact that we had heard the minister stand in the House today and say that this Liberal district got it and thi~? Liberal district got it, but the thing that was pointed out to the minister in the Estimates Conunittee, the thing that the member pointed out then, was that in all those Liberal districts L1790 Kay 12, 1986 Vol XL that got grants, those grants were made when there were Tories there before the last election.

Now that seems to me to take some of the wind out of his sails. This is the sort of thing that happens. Everyone he mentioned, Gander I believe had a Tory; Bonavista North had a Tory; Burgeo - Bay d•Espoir had a Tory; St. Barbe had a Tory; Port de Grave had a Tory - MR. FLIGHT: Windsor - Buchans. MR. GILBERT: - and Windsor - Buchans. So it would seem to me that this famous list that the minister is talking about now was compiled before the election last year and may be a part of the pork barrel sort of thing that we have heard about. Now, we are into this year.

We have asked the minister during the estimates if we can have a list of the areas or the conununities that are going to receive these grants and guarantees. I do not care what they are, grants, guarantees, loans, whatever it is as long as it goes out to the people that make the request for it, for water, sewerage, paving under the sixty/forty programme, firefighting, or any of that stuff. I do not care what you call them as long as the communities get them.

We sit in the Estimates Committee and we ask the minister to give the list for this year, and he said, 'no, it has to go to Cabinet.' I stood up in this House today and I asked the minister, now that we had passed through the Estimates Committee, had he brought this list to Cabinet for approval. Kr. No. 30 R1790

.. Speaker, he got up and alluded to the fact that we talked about last year's list in the estimates. Certainly we talked about last year's list in the estimates but, we also talked about the list for the current year. This is why we were debating the Budget. We sat in those committee meetings and asked the minister to reveal this list. He said there was $175 million worth of requests last year and he had $30 million in the Budget to fulfill it. This year he says it is $180 million and he still has $30 million to fulfill the promises.

Now, the question I would like to ask the minister is does anyone in his department take from the $175 million list he had last year and when he gets the new list in this year for the $180 million, does anyone look at those and put a priority on them? Those people have asked for a sewer project three years in a row and it is a serious problem. Does someone go out and investigate and see that it is and put it on a list?

We cannot be convinced of that over here because of the callous way that we hear members stand up on the opposite side and, sort of say, 'if you slither across on your belly and go into the minister like a nice little dog and pat the desk, he is going to give you something.' MR. DECKER: Like 'Peckford' does in Ottawa. MR. GILBERT: The same way that the Premier now goes to Ottawa, the way he slithers up and kisses the boots of Mulroney and tries to get something.

We understand agreement now. his He Ll791 Kay 12, 1986 railway cannot do Vol XL anything about it because he is waiting f~r Ottawa to make the decision and then he is going to fight back. This is the crux of what he said in Port aux Basques over the weekend. We cannot do anything about it right now but we are going to fight when Ottawa makes the decision. That would seem to be posturing and I think it is maybe a little more than that. I think it is a way to possibly try and keep people quiet.

He has gone into Port aux Basques and said 'we cannot do anything about the railway now, we have to wait on Ottawa and Ottawa right now have their hands full. They have all those problems like Sinclair Stevens and they cannot make a decision on the railway. However, when they do have time, we are going to fight.' Now, that seems to me to be a strange way to do business but this seems to be the attitude that members opposite have taken. We have the famous list and it cannot be published. It has to wait until the House closes.

You ask for the Guaranteed Loans one and you do not get it, you ask for the sixty/forty one, and this list is not available. You have to go to . the Freedom of Information Act and then, after the appropriate wait, something comes and we do get some sort of an answer back. My colleague for Gander (Kr. Baker) tried all last year to get the list and still some of it he has not gotten to this day, like the street paving, and information on the 60/40 programme. Now we hear the minister get up and announce something about the communi ties that are not serviced by community councils. He has this list.

He mentions the community of Francois. No. 30 R1791

I asked him during the estimates committee how much did the community of Francois get for water? I would like to know. The minister never answered me then, but maybe he will now when he gets up. What is on this list and why are these lists secretive? Why is it such a problem to get those lists from the Department of Municipal Affairs if they are not political and they are not pork barrelling.

All we ask for the minister to do is, since he has $30 million approved and he was given carte blanche in his estimates committee to approve this list, the only thing he has to do, if it is above board, as he says, and it is done on a priority rather than to pork barrel basis, let us do the thing that is right. Let us publish the list for everyone so that we on this side of the House can see where the list applies and come up with the rationale as to why that went to this conununity or it went to another conununity. It seems to me that he is trying to hide something. Maybe we are accusing the minister unjustly.

Maybe he is doing it all above board but the list is not made available to members opposite. My colleague had to go to the Freedom of Information Act and he still did not get it. He only got part of the list. You know maybe the minister co~ld stand up now and provide us with the list. I asked him questions today about grants and guarantees and he skated and slithered around on it and said, .. The member does not understand what he is asking... I understood perfectly well what I was asking. He did not want to understand what I was asking because it was not political for him to understand it.

He knew perfectly well the question I was asking. I was Ll792 May 12, 1986 Vol XL asking where is the now famous list? My whole concern is about this list that is there and the grants and why we, as members opposite, feel that there is a serious problem with the dispensing of . funds to the municipalities in Newfoundland and the communities throughout the Province when we come to this list.

It is all right for the minister to sit there and smile and laugh and make a joke of this but there are a lot of communities out there in Newfoundland that are very, very concerned about this and, in order to operate their governments, they depend on those grants and guaranteed loans. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): Order, please! The bon. member's time is up. MR. GILBERT: Oh, I was making a great speech. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Kr.

Speaker, again I have to get up because I have never heard as many silly comments in this House over the last six months as I have heard the bon. gentleman make a few minutes ago. He is totally misunderstanding the system and how it works. He keeps making reference to a list. I do not know how many times, Mr. Speaker, I have to make a list available to the bon. gentleman because I have made that list No. 30 Rl792

available on two different occasions. Once to the member for Menihek . (Mr. Fenwick) . He has been given a complete and a thorough list of all of the capital projects that were approved under water and sewer last year. The member for Gander (Mr. Baker) was given a complete list of the water and sewer projects that. were approved last year. The bon. gentleman had the nerve to stand on his feel a few minutes ago and say that the member for Gander had to go to the Freedom of Information Act in order to have this information made available to him. That is totally untrue, Mr. Speaker.

That is totally, absolutely untrue. When the member for Gander (Mr. Baker) and the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick), asked for that list of water and sewer projects, they were given the list. They were not given it within a twenty-four period. It was probably a three week period before I made that list available to them. MR. FENWICK: Nine months. MR. DOYLE: Simply because, Mr. Speaker, we had to get a lot of research done in the department. The engineering people had to go back and find out what projects that had been approved, had actually been acted upon, and monies expended.

So I wanted to make available to bon. gentlemen opposite a complete and an accurate list of projects. Out of that programme, Mr. Speaker, there were more Opposition districts funded in one year than was given to all the PC districts since Confederation by the bon. gentlemen opposite when Ll793 May 12, 1986 Vol XL they were in power. So if th~ member for Burgeo - Bay d • Espoir (Mr.

Gilbert) is still looking for the rationale behind last year's budgetary allocations, then I guess there is not really any because if this government was as unfair in its dealings with Opposition districts as the previous Liberal government, then there would be no money given to communities at all that were represented by hon. gentlemen opposite. The point that has to be made, Mr. Speaker, is that roughly 15 or 20 per cent of the entire capital programme was approved for dis