Manitoba Committee Hansard — 29 May 2019 (Social and Economic Development Committee, Sitting 3, 41st Legislature, 4th Session)

41-4-sed3

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session – Forty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development Chairperson Mr. Dennis Smook Constituency of La Verendrye Vol. LXXII No. 3 - 6 p.m., Wednesday, May 29, 2019 ISSN 1708-6698

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia Man. FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib.

GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson Ind. GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek Interlake PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen, Hon. St.

Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples Ind. SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff, Hon.

Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC

27 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT Wednesday, May 29, 2019 TIME – 6 p.m. LOCATION – Winnipeg, Manitoba CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verendrye) VICE-CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Doyle Piwniuk (Arthur-Virden) ATTENDANCE – 11 QUORUM – 6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Messrs. Fielding, Wharton Messrs. Allum, Helwer, Lamont, Ms. Lathlin, Messrs. Lindsey, Martin, Piwniuk, Reyes, Smook Substitutions: Ms. Klassen for Mr. Lamont at 6:24 p.m. Hon. Mr. Gerrard for Ms. Lamoureux at 10:26 p.m. APPEARING: Ms. Judy Klassen, MLA for Kewatinook Ms.

Cindy Lamoureux, MLA for Burrows PUBLIC PRESENTERS: Ms. Roberta Loughrin, private citizen Mr. Dalvir Gill, private citizen Ms. Tara Petti, Southern First Nations Network of Care Mr. Chandeep Dhaliwal, private citizen Ms. Louise McKay, private citizen Mr. Lakhvir Sehajpal, private citizen Mr. Mark Singh, private citizen Mr. Gurjit Sandhu, private citizen Ms. Elsie Flette, private citizen Ms. Josephine D'Andrea, Kelburn Recovery Centre Mr. Jaserwt Singh, private citizen Mr. Kulwinder Chahal, private citizen Mr. Baljeet Singh, private citizen Mr. Amitaj Singh, private citizen Mr. Tejbir Singh, private citizen Mr.

Himmat Bhullar, private citizen Mr. David Hill, private citizen Mr. Ken Cranwill, private citizen Mr. Vincent J. Bueti, private citizen Mr. Harvey Greenberg, private citizen Mr. Jim Humphreys, private citizen Mr. Baljit Panchhi, private citizen Mr. Gurminder Dhillon, private citizen Mr. Sheldon Pinx, private citizen Mr. Jadbar Gill, private citizen Mr. Eugeni Morduhovich, private citizen Mr. Parminder Singh Mangat, private citizen Mr. Gurjit Mangat, private citizen Ms. Fiona Haftani, private citizen Mr. Ravi Chahal, private citizen MATTERS UNDER CONSIDERATION: Bill 32 –

An Act concerning the Leasing of 800 Adele Avenue, Winnipeg * * * Mr. Chairperson: Good evening. Will the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development please come to order. This meeting has been called to consider the following bill: Bill 32,

An Act concerning the Leasing of 800 Adele Avenue, Winnipeg. I would like to infor m all in attendance of the provisions in our rules regarding the hour of adjournment. A Standing Committee meeting to consider a bill must not sit past midnight to hear public presentations or to consider clause by clause of a bill except by unanimous cons ent of the committee. We have a number of presenters registered to speak tonight, as noted on the list before you. On the–determining the order of public presentations, I will note that we do have some out -of-town presenters in attendance, marked with an 'asterik' on the list.

We also have presenters registered to speak who have requested Punjabi translation. We do have translation staff in attendance. Is there leave of the committee to allow the translator to sit at the table? [Agreed] I would invite Jaskirat Sohi to join us at the table. With this in mind, in what order does the committee wish to hear the presentations?

28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 Mr. Reg Helwer (Brandon West): Mr. Chair, I think we should listen to the out -of-town presenters first, if there's agreement of the committee. Mr. Chairperson: Is it agreed by the committee to hear the out-of-town presenters first? [Agreed] Mr. Helwer: I also ask if we could hear Tar a Petti first. She's an out -of-town presenter and a –southern First Nations network care. And she is familiar with the lease to give us some information, if she could speak first. Mr. Chairperson: What is the will of the committee? [Agreed] Mr.

James Allum (Fort Garry -Riverview): Mr. Chair, I wonder if the committee would also consider whether the folks who need translation could also go toward the top of the list. Floor Comment: Excuse me, Sir. We can hardly hear you back here. Mr. Chairperson: Yes, Mr. Allum, that was one of the asks we have, so if you're –we would then do the people who need a translator right after the out -of- towners. Is that agreed? [Agreed] Okay, leave has been granted for that. Before we proceed with presentations, we do have a number of other items and points of information to consider. Can everybody hear me back there now?

Okay. First of all, if there's anyone else in attendance who would like to make a presentation this evening, please register with staff at the en trance of the room. Also, for the information of all presenters, while written versions of presentations are not required, if you are going to accompany your presentation with written materials, we ask that you provide 20 copies. If you need help with phot ocopying, please speak with our staff.

I would also like to remind the members of the committee who are observing the committee meeting to please not disturb proceedings by applauding or making comments from the gallery. And, in accordance with our rules, photography is prohibited unless you're a member of the legislative press gallery. As well, in accordance with our rules, a time limit of 10 minutes has been allotted for each presentation, with another five minutes allowed for questions from committee members. If a presenter is not in attendance when their name is called, they will be dropped to the bottom of the list.

If the presenter is not in attendance when their name is called a second time, they will be removed from the presenters' list. I woul d like –now I would like to advise members of the public about the process for speaking in committee. The proceedings of our meetings are recorded in Hansard to provide a verbatim transcript. Each time someone wishes to speak, whether it be an MLA or a presenter, I first have to say that person's name. This is the signal for Hansard recorder to turn the mics on and off.

We have a list of new presenters that have registered since –we have six new presenters, of which one of them requires a translator. These six, since they have registered, will go to the bottom of the list, unless the one that needs the translator would be moved up to the bottom of the list of the other ones that require translation. Is that in agreement with the committee? [Agreed] Thank you with your patience. Bill 32–An Act concerning the Leasing of 800 Adele Avenue, Winnipeg Mr.

Chairperson: We will now proceed with public presentations, and, as per the agreement, I will now call on Tara Petti from the Southern First Nations Network of Care. Tara? Are you present? Petti? Tara Petti? Okay, Tara is not present. She will move to the bottom of the list. Our next out -of-town presenter is Jim Humphreys, private citizen. Mr. Humphreys, could you–are you in attendance? [interjection] Pardon? Mr. Jim Humphreys (Private Citizen ): I'm not from out of town. Mr. Chairperson: Oh, you're not from out of town? Mr. Humphreys: No, unless River Heights is out of town. * (18:10) Mr. Chairperson: Okay.

We had agreed to do the out-of-town presenters first. For some reason, your name shows up as an out -of-town presenter. So,

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 29 Mr. Humphreys, we will call you in order that you are on the list. We will now move to Jeffrey Baranyk, private citizen. Jeffrey Baranyk, is he here? Jeffrey Baranyk? He's been called. He will move to the bottom of the list. The next –Carl Witt. Is Carl Witt present? Carl Witt is not present. He will be moved to the bottom of the list. Roberta Loughrin? Roberta? Good evening, Roberta. Do you have any written copies for distribution to the committee? Ms. Roberta Loughrin (Private Citizen): No. Mr. Chairperson: Okay.

Then you may proceed with your presentation when you are ready. Ms. Loughrin: Thank you. Honourable members, tonight I wish to address Bill 32, highlighting the matter of what occurred at 800 Adele to the at -risk youth. Seeing those youth are not here tonight, I wish to defend what they experienced, seemingly hurried to say goodbye to their friends, crying, clearly exhibiting distress while abruptly discharged from 800 Adele. The Premier (Mr. Pallister) is moving Bill 32 suspiciously fast in order to rationalize his agenda.

There is no rationalization, however, in regards to vulnerable, indigenous, a t-risk youth being made to pack their meagre items quickly only to be ousted from their secure surroundings. After that, left to cope with their battles once discharged untenably from the handily vacated facility of 800 Adele. These vulnerable teens deserve to stand in their light. What internal message did they take, having been ejected from a grade A facility by this sitting government? Firstly, they were sent to the city to receive the advantages of mental health therapy under the watch of trained phy sicians.

Likely, they now really feel like throwaway children. In recent years, despite the duty of hotel reduction teams meeting past deadlines of housing no foster kids in hotels, we the taxpayers need validation that the Pallister government will act o n their jurisdiction to safeguard the indigenous, at -risk youth of this province. That said, even with vital services promised at 800 Adele, an autocratic ruling turned that all away. What you heard on the lease being bad or good depends on where you stand, but I testify what's really bad is that Manitoba has currently 11,000 kids in foster care.

It's not good that indigenous children make up 90 per cent of that unsettling statistic. And still, Prem ier Pallister closed 800 Adele. That concerns me. Do you know who's listening in close? The seemingly throwaway youth of our province; many citizens weary with the tone and tactics of politicians whom universally are indifferent to marginalized people. Now these at-risk youth are further displaced in a complex CFS system where a central computing system falls short on uniting the agencies and supervisors who are charged to protect our youth. I assure you, each young spirit has dreamt of having a happier life.

I think indigenous youth are really tired of being let down by adults. The statistics are heartbreaking. The reason I care so much is because back in '89 and '91, I volunteered one evening per week of much of two years to teaming up with a large group of concerned adults trying to reach the indigenous people stuck in the vicious cycle of both addiction and the poverty that sadly leads to prostitution in a space of Higgins and Main near the Salvation Army. We'd meet first at the Union Gospel and then disband from there to well after midnight. Building seeds of trust was my No. 1 priority.

My two infants at that time were at home being babysat on those very long nights. I gratefully impacted just a few girls from leaving the cruel streets behind them. Sadly, I witnessed many underaged Aboriginal teen girls w ho were very much pregnant in sub- January and February weather just wearing scantily – clothes, and, sadly, exploited by self -serving men as they drove away into the night, nameless. But I do know they appreciate a warm cup of coffee and a smile, and some of them phoned me at home. Our elected government should be givers of hope.

We need all governments to co -operate on building the indigenous people's capacity to care for their own at -risk youth, who are on the forefront of the future. Please, please do what a sentient humanity levels as right here so we can mitigate the suffering of these aforementioned at-risk youth.

30 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 Premier Pallister, please ensure that these kids still matter. The future recollections of their troubled youth depends completely on refr aming tonight's matter at hand. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Roberta. We will now move to questions. Oh, Roberta, we still need you here. We got question period. Ms. Loughrin: Oh, I'm sorry. I apologize. Hon. Scott Fielding (Minister of Finance): Thank you, Roberta, for your presentation.

And I think we share something in common: we want to protect vulnerable children, and our government is taking some strong action to reduce the amount of children in care. And so I appreciate you coming out here tonight and showing your passion for the issue. It's something that I think all parties very much support and want to make sure that vulnerable children are supported. Thank you. [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Oh, I have to recognize you first. You may proceed, Roberta. Ms. Loughrin: Go ahead, Sir. Mr. Chairperson: No, before you can say anything, I have to mention your name.

So what you said wasn't recorded. So now I'm saying Roberta Loughrin. So if you could continue what you were saying. Ms. Loughrin: Yes, I do believe that all governments share the same agenda, and that is to mitigate the suffering of at -risk youth in our province. Thus, facilities are a benefit to mitigating that tragedies don't ensue in the future. Mr. James Allum (Fort Ga rry-Riverview): Ms. Loughrin? Ms. Loughrin: Yes. Mr. Allum: Yes, I got your name proper. I also, on behalf of the NDP, just wanted to thank you for coming into here tonight and to– providing your very important testimony. Thank you so much.

Mr. Dougald Lamont (Leader of the Second Opposition): Do you have any–thank you very much for your comments and your commitment. Do you have any idea where the–have you heard or do you have any idea where the children might be? Or–[interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Sorry, you cannot –so, in order – Ms. Loughrin, you may proceed. You can answer the question now. Ms. Loughrin: No, I do not know where they've gone, Mr. Lamont. Mr. Chairperson: Do we have any further questions? We thank you very much for your presentat ion and we will now move on to the next presenter. I will now call on Dalvir Gill. Dalvir Gill? Mr.

Gill, do you have any written material for the committee? Mr. Dalvir Gill (Private Citizen): No, Sir. Mr. Chairperson: Then you may proceed with your presentation. * (18:20) Mr. Dalvir Gill: First of all, I would like to thank you, thank everybody, all the committee, and a special thanks to people who took their time out and came out here for those kids who cannot speak for themselves. And they are–I h eard about–that they're not normal kids. They need help every day. So what hurt me is what brought me here. You know, I couldn't even go to sleep last night when I was thinking about it.

Nobody knows where the kids are and how they are and what they're d oing, right, so it's very serious, and that's my biggest concern. That's why I'm here. And the other thing is if we don't look after them today, right, they could become a serious problem for the society down the road. You know, they could be misguided. They could get into the prostitution or whatever, right. I also like to tell you guys about –little about myself. I came to Canada when I was young, about 13 years old. My parents, they moved to this country with the hope of a better life, you know, which we experienced and I enjoy it.

I own a business in Winnipeg, do farming, do transportation. You know, I have employees, and bottom line is I love kids.

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 And, you know, that's what hurts me the most when it's for the kids, and you know, I'm very concerned about them and I have a humble request to all the political parties and this committee, you know, please think about them and they cannot do anything for themselves. First of all, they're kids and they – next thing is they're not normal kids, right? So I request to the committee that, you know, we should do the best for them. The facility there was, it was for them, and it was really helpful for them. Mr. Chairperson: We thank you for your presentation, Mr. Gill.

Mr. Fielding : Yes, thank you very much for your presentation, for coming down and very much appreciate that, and, you know, appreciate your passion to make sure vulnerable children are protected. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Gill, did you have a response to that? Like, you had said something, but I can't recognize you; it won't get put into– unless I recognize you, so you can't speak until I repeat your name. Mr. Gill, did you have a response for the minister? Mr. Dalvir Gill: Yes, I do. Mr. Chairperson: Proceed. Mr. Dalvir Gill: May I ask, could you please ask me that question again? Mr.

Chairperson: Oh, it wasn't a question. He was just–you just thanked him. Mr. Fielding : I just said thank you very much for coming and making a presentation and for your presentation. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, Mr. Allum Come back, we're not finished. Mr. Allum: So, Mr. Gill, just for clarity's sake, there–after everybody presents, then you get a five - minute question period, if there are questions afterward, and then what happens is I a sk you or one member asks you a question, then the Chair will repeat your name, then you can answer. Okay? And so you're not the first. Everybody makes the same issue.

I only wanted to thank you for coming and sharing your story with us tonight and for s haring your sentiments. Thank you so much for taking the time to coming in from out of town. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, we have–[interjection] Any more questions? Well, we have–do we have to make that announcement? Okay, Ms. Klassen. Ms. Judy Klassen (Kewatinook): I just wanted to say thank you for coming in, and I feel your heart and I really appreciate you coming down to let us know. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Gill. Any more questions? Okay, thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Gill.

That concludes the questions that the committee has for you. Thank you. Committee Substitution Mr. Chairperson: We would like to make a following membership substitution effective immediately for the standing committee: Judy Klassen for Dougald Lamont. * * * Mr. Reg Helwer (Brandon West): I understand that Tara Petti is now with us and wonder if there's leave of the committee to allow her to present. Mr. Chairperson: Question before the committee: is there leave to let Tara Petti present as an out -of- town–leave? [Agreed] I will now call on Tara Petti. Ms.

Petti, do you have any written material for distribution to the committee? Ms. Tara Petti (Southern First Nations Network of Care): Yes. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, if you have, then our staff is distributing it. You may proceed with your presentation. Ms. Petti: Thank you. Good evening, committee members. My name is Tara Petti, and I am the CEO of the Southern First Nations Network of Care, also known as the Southern Network. The Southern Network is responsible for managing the delivery of child and family services to members of 36 First Nations in southern Manitoba and others who choose to use the

32 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 Southern Network through our 10 mandated agencies. Thank you for the opportunity to speak here tonight. On behalf of the Southern Network and our board of directors, I'm here tonight to speak in support of bill C 32,

An Act concerning the Leasing of 800 Adele Avenue, Winnipeg. [interjection] Is that better? Okay. Thank you. On May 15th, 2019, bill C 32 was introduced in the Manitoba Legislative Assembly by the Honourable Scott Fielding, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Civil Service. This bill terminates the lease of 800 Adele that was entered into by the Southern Network and a company registered as 516803 Manitoba Ltd. The termination date is effective November 30th, 2019.

In 2008, a 20- year lease was signed for the building at 800 Adele to provide an alternative to hotels for children and youth in the care of child and family services. In November 2012, the Southern Network was placed under an order of administration by the minister of Family Services from the Province of Manitoba. And then, in October 2015, a formal review of the lease at 800 Adele was undertaken by Grant Thornton LLP, in order to facilitate a long - term solution, and the report was released in February of 2016.

In January of 2016, the order of administration for the Southern Network was lifted, and a new board of directors wa s appointed. One of the key conditions for rescinding the order of administration was the Manitoba government committing to deal with the issues surrounding the 800 Adele lease. As the new CEO of the Southern Network, I inherited the ongoing issues and pro blems in regards to the lease at 800 Adele.

At that time, the Southern Network could not continue to fund the lease deficits on an ongoing basis and was no longer able to use the facilities at 800 Adele for any purposes, including program service delivery. Based on the review conducted in 2016 by Grant Thornton, several irregularities were documented in the original lease, and these included the 20- year term without any right for early termination, more than fair market value of the lease payments, responsibilities for repairs and maintenance and punitive penalties for breach of the terms of the lease, including early termination.

The Southern Network has not been able to get permission from Grant Thornton LLP to release the report in its entirety. Working with the Manitoba government, it has continued to be a priority of the Southern Network to remedy this problem. Several attempts have been made to renegotiate the original lease with the landlord. However, the landlord has been unwilling to renegotiate any of the terms and conditions. The Manitoba government has undertaken several measures to address this problem. The government has assumed program funding respon- sibilities for the building.

The government has attempted to find new tenants for the building but has been unable to secure any tenants due to accessibility for disabled clients and staff, lack of an air conditioning system, inadequate parking, config- uration of the office and the lease terms. The government has agreed to cover deficits for facil ity's costs, including lease, utilities and repairs and maintenance costs for the Southern Network. The government has also tried to renegotiate the terms and conditions of the lease with the landlord, including terminating the lease, but these attempts have been unsuccessful.

As a result, the government has taken steps to introduce bill C 32 in order to terminate the lease. In closing, on behalf of the Southern Network and our board of directors, I leave you this quote from our former board chair, Allan Courchene: We don't want to be stuck paying this multi -million- dollar lease there. We don't want to pay that type of rate when we are a new organization and we want to continue to service our children in care in agencies. And you can find that quote attac hed to the CBC news

article from April 6th, 2016. And, again, thank you for the opportunity to speak here tonight. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Ms. Petti. Mr. Fielding : Well, thank you, Tara, for your presentation and your commitme nt to supporting vulnerable children in your roles –in your role, and I know the lease was in the neighbourhood of $500,000. What would you use the $500,000 –is there supports and services that you would use that money to provide for vulnerable children? Ms. Petti: I think there is lots of opportunities that can be looked at to, you know, to spend $500,000 a

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 33 year in times where, you know, funding for programs and services is, you know, we have to take careful consideration into what we're funding, really looking at outcome-based. Just as an example, for the past 18 months or so we've been going through the steps of fundraising for Restoring the Sacred Bond, which is the landmark social impact bond for Manitoba. That kind of money could fund the program. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your answer, Ms. Petti. Mr. Allum: Ms.

Petti, thank you so much for coming in tonight, for travelling in here and certainly for the important work that the Southern Network does each and every day. And also I just want to thank you for coming in, providing testimony to the committee tonight. Ms. Klassen: Thank you, as well, for coming in. Mr. Chairperson: Oh, sorry –Ms. Petti had to answer to–no? Ms. Klassen. Ms. Klassen: I just want to say thank you again for coming in. Ms. Petti: And, again, ekosi, thank you for hearing our–of the words presented tonight, and if there's no further questions I guess I'm concluding. Mr. Helwer: Thank you, Ms.

Petti, for coming tonight. I see from a news

article here there've been a total of 250 children that were in that facility at one time. I take it they were under the care of the southern authority. We've heard some people commenting tonight that these children were turned out onto t he street and I want to hear your assurance that they are still in care and you know where they are, if they are in care of southern authority. Ms. Petti : Yes, thank you. That's a really good question and I heard commentary already around, you know, the w ell-being of the children. You know that we're involved in the programming.

About 250 children did go through the program, which was called Ji -zhaabwing, and it was, you know, the vision of the program was a really good vision. And our –and what, you know , what it had kind of dwindled down to over the years was, you know, a crisis stabilization unit that was run by another resource that we were–and there was about – there was five bed spaces and I think three children were–had to be relocated once they vacat ed the premises.

As the Southern Network, we have the ability to, you know, understand the movement of the kids that are under our care and we can confirm that the children that were moved from Adele into an alternate facility, still under the care of the ir care provider, were situated accordingly and they continue to receive services today. Mr. Chairperson: Are there any more questions for Ms. Petti? Seeing none, thank you very much for your presentation, Ms. Petti, and we will now move on to the next presenter.

But before we do that, we have five more presenters that have registered since this committee has started, of which one requires a translator. So, is it the will of the committee to put the person who needs the translator on the list of people who require translation? Is that in agreement of the committee? [Agreed] I will now call on Chandeep Dhaliwal. Chandeep Dhaliwal? Do you have any written? Mr. Chandeep Dhaliwal (Private Citizen ): No, I don't. Mr. Chairperson: Then you may proceed with your presentation, Mr. Dhaliwal. Mr.

Dhaliwal: There's a few points that I want to talk about just because I was born and raised in Winnipeg, Manitoba. I played competitive hockey, junior A. I lived on a reserve. I was in Sagkeeng. I played for the Southeast Blades. I was housed there for two years. I saw first-hand the struggle: substance abuse, living standards, lack of education. And a lot of those guys that I reached out back– because there's hockey year round –and some of the tournaments we played in, you slowly saw guys withering away from their hockey careers and kind of dabbling into drugs or gang life or selling drugs.

So their career was kind of going in a different direction from a lot of guys like myself who had a house to live in, good education, proper guidance. Parents always pushed us to be successful and do best for what's good for others and help as many people as you possibly can.

34 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 We already know in Winnipeg, Manitoba, that the city's struggling with a meth crisis. Everybody listens it on the news every single day. Some of the homicides that have been committed, they're linking it to meth. We don't know if all these kids are mentally stable.

When we're taking away a facility that houses kids that are high risk, I think it's a poor job on our end as what we're trying to do for our kids, because I think the government as a whole is doing–is showing citizens of Winnipeg that we're trying to take care of the kids, but clearly, you can see by what's going on with taking away the lease agreement that we don't even know where these kids are. Every province has its own problems. In British Columbia, you know, the Indo- Canadians over there is very–it's the dominant population.

They struggle with gang violence, drug dealers, kids as early as 16, 17 years old are committing multiple homicides. It's the same kind as culture, different setting. We already know there's an opiate crisis out there. The NDP over there seems like they're working hand in hand with the people that are struggling and providing facilities, safe sites for injections. I know it's–that's something that Manitoba talked about. I don't know if they're pursuing that. But I have some friends that are correctional officers at Stony Mountain. They have a unit called SRE.

And the y say some of these young kids don't even know what's going on. They go through the facility, they go through the medical line, they get these prescription pills that are prescribed to them for their schizophrenia, whatever disorders they have – FSAD–or FSDA, or whatever it's called–fetal alcohol syndrome. And they're left there. Some guys are 18 years old, they don't have a bright future. So if we're taking off all these facilities at a young age, what are we actually showing these kids? I know Winnipeg st ruggled maybe four years ago where CFS was putting the kids in hotels. And that was a disaster.

I think there was a homicide committed, a young girl ended up dying. So what are we doing as a whole, right? There's a few business guys that actually invested their money. And I don't think they were doing it for their financial gain. I think they were honestly doing it as genuine people for the kids. I think that's what all 'succeksful' people want to do is they want to give back to the community because what are you going to take when you pass away? You're not going to take all the money you made in your life with you to the grave, right?

You want to give it back to somebody, and I think kids are a great way to show that, you know? They can have a bright future. So. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable Mr. Fielding– thank you for your presentation. Members, for questions. Mr. Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): Just want to thank you very much for coming out and sharing your story and your thoughts on this whole issue. So thank you very much for being here tonight. * (18:40) Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Dhaliwal, did you have a response to that? Mr. Dhaliwal: Thank you. Ms. Klassen: I just want to say thank you for coming in and presenting. Mr. Dhaliwal: Thank you. Mr.

Shannon Martin (Morris): Again, I mean, obviously, I thank you, but I just want to clarify. You may not have heard Ms. Tara Petti. She was the CEO of Southern Network. You said nobody knows where the children are, and Ms. Petti had indicated there was three children when the facility –removed from the facility, and that Southern Network is in full care, control and safe, secure of those three children. So I just want to make sure you were aware of that, when you'd said that no one knew where the children were. So I just want to put you at ease. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Dhaliwal? Did you have a response? Mr.

Dhaliwal: Yes, I guess I didn't hear tha t aspect of it, but that's just one set of group of kids, right? Just–I'm sure if you go into the north side of the city or other aspects of the city, there's a handful of kids that need a place to go and that don't have places to go. Hon. Jeff Wharton (Minister of Municipal Relations): Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal, for your presentation. Just–were you aware that a portion of the building has been vacant since 2014? Mr. Dhaliwal: No. Mr. Chairperson: Are there any further questions for Mr. Dhaliwal?

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 35 We thank you very much for your presentation, and we will move on to the next presenter. Okay, this concludes the list of out -of-town presenters I have before me. Are there any other out -of-town presenters that wish to make a presentation? Seeing as none –oh, sorry. Louise McKay? Louise McKay? Do you have any written materials for the committee, Ms. McKay? Ms. Louise McKay (Private Citizen) : No. Just from here. Mr. Chairperson: Then you may proceed with your presentation when you are ready. Ms. McKay: And it's McKay. Mr. Chairperson: McKay? Ms. McKay: Yes.

My name is Louise McKay, and when this all started, I was staff at the southern authority, and I was involved right from the beginning. So I got a call on Aboriginal Day many years ago saying that there was this building and could I come and have a look at it. So I went with the late Bill Harris [phonetic] and had a look at this building. And I knew what it was we were looking for, and we were quite excited. I was quite excited about what this building offered.

The building was owned by a group of nuns, I forget which order they were, and I understood that there were more than one offer on this property, and that they preferred what it was that we were wanting to do with the facility, and that's why they were looking at us to be the ones to purchase this property. We spent many hours talking about what it was we wanted to do. And I have a friend who's from a well-known architect firm in Winnipeg, and he tells me that buildings have a life. Buildings have a personality and buildings are built in such a way to deliver something specific to a group of people.

So, when we looked at this building, this building suited our purposes and it spoke to us as to what it was we wanted to do with it. And so right from the ge t-go, the nuns wanted us to have the building; we wanted to have the building. And so one of the things we did almost right off the get-go was we created a committee, a committee that was with all the four authorities, the landlords and Winnipeg School D ivision, because we wanted to have an assessment of the kids coming into that program, something that wasn't offered anywhere else in Winnipeg at the time, or Manitoba, maybe even Canada.

I don't remember all the research we did. And so as a team, we sat at these tables and we talked about what this organization would do, who the people would be that would provide these services, and how we would go about doing what it was we wanted to do. The landlords were people that I had just met in passing. They were not people that I had met before, but we were excited that here was private enterprise and social services wanting to work together, and these landlords were interested in kids, in making life better for kids and were interested in providing something, giving back to the community.

So we had a good partnership, sitting at the table talking about how we were going to do what it was we were going to do. So government was at the table. The other authorities, the First Nations north and south and the Metis and the Inuit were represented at that table, and it was all of us working together to make this program work, this program that nobody else offered at the time. So we were very excited about that. We developed a program in partnership. When you look at how the program rolled out, we had ceremonies at the time, about guiding us on how to do all these things.

The name of the program was gotten through ceremony. When it was changed later, it was changed through ceremony again, and the people that had sat at those tables were the ones who came to ceremony. So when you look at the birth of something, when this program was birthed out of the ashes of the sisters who were there before us, it had a good birth, and it had a good start, and we did it the right way. And so, today, when I heard about what was going on and, you know, and trying to keep up with what has gone on with this building, for me, it shouldn't go on. That shouldn't be happening.

This building and the program that we ran in that building, we di d it the right way. There were no politics involved in those days, not in that program, not in the purchase of the building. So it's kind of a shame, in my opinion, that we're here today having to talk about this. Miigwech.

36 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Ms. McKay. Mr. Wharton: Thank you so much, Ms. McKay, for your presentation tonight, and thank you for your service with, of course, the southern authority during your time there. I'm sure you helped make a difference for those children. A question I have is as was reported by the CBC, the authority paid $573,466.50, basically 11 months plus final month deposit to the landlord before the lease was signed and renovations commenced, the audit found. Ms. McKay, did you see this as questionable? Mr. Chairperson: Ms.

McKay. Ms. McKay: I know; I heard him. I'm just trying to figure out how to phrase my response. Mr. Chairperson: No, I have to mention your name before they can record your conversation, so I have to mention your name; otherwi se, you don't get recorded. So, Ms. McKay. Ms. McKay: Thank you. The specifics of the finances I don't know, so I don't want to stand here and begin to address things that were not in my area. My area at the time was having a look at this building and s eeing if it met the needs that we were talking about.

My area was in bringing the people together to make –to try to make happen what it was that we were going to make happen. Everybody came to the table. We all worked collaboratively, and we were all on bo ard together. So that's the best I can answer your question about finances. Ms. Amanda Lathlin (The Pas): Tansi, and welcome to the process here for the committee for bill C 32, and I want to thank you for sharing your experience and your time. I just w anted to ask you: What do you see, you know, for the future of this property in regard to our children and youth and in care? Mr. Chairperson: Ms. McKay. Ms.

McKay: You almost caught me there again that time. * (18:50) When you look at how we started this process and we started the programming there, we started it in a good way. We had a ceremony. Everybody that was involved came. So we all started it with a good heart. So when you look at the government of the day, they were at the table. And when you look at the other people who provided service in those days, they were at the table.

So when you consider that and you look at what's going on today, if we can–if we were able to go back to that same kind of process, we would probably end up with something better than what we're doing right now. Look at the money we're spending. Look at all of you. You're all being paid to be here, right? So you're spending a lot of money to do that. And you know what, where is it going, right? Where is it going? We could be providing a lot more service for children. The number of children in care keeps going up. You know, you provide more money and there –we still need more services.

So let's sit –why can't we sit down together and talk about, you know, in a collaborative way? Why can't we do this the same way we did it before? Because, you know what? That program provided good service. I could tell you stories about some of the kids that started out in that program and how they ended up, you know. Some people–I'll tell you a story about one kid. People were afraid to provide service to this young man. And in order to provide services, he needed more than one person at a time to be with him. And many people were scared. They were afraid. They were afraid for themselves.

They were afraid to be hurt physically and whatever. About a year and a half, maybe two years later, I had that young man alone, me and him alone in my vehicle. And we went out for lunch together, just him and I. That program, through the beginning, through that program, that young man changed from where he was at and on his journey–his journey became facilitated. And in my opinion, it became facilitated because that program helped him, you know? When the kids came to that program, a lot of them were broken.

A lot of them needed–I don't know –I saw –I heard in this movie one time, there's no prosthetic for a broken spirit. So when those young people would come to that program, that's what it was. And the work that –it wasn't just us. It was all of us working together at that time. We worked together in partnership. We created a better life for that young man –for not just that young man, for his family, for his community. Miigwech.

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 37 Mr. Chairperson: We thank you for your presentation, Ms. McKay. We are–we've got a couple seconds left for a question. If–Mr. Wharton, if you could do it in about 10 seconds. Mr. Wharton: Sure. Quickly, then, 10 seconds. Thank you, again, Mrs. McKay. So you had mentioned a number of stakeholders around the table during the building process and what have you. Would–was there any discussion about going to tender? Ms. McKay: About what? Mr. Chairperson: Could you repeat the question, Mr. Wharton? Mr.

Wharton: Was there any discussion with all the stakeholders and political leaders around the table about going to tender for a building? Ms. McKay: I only half understand your question. I'm going to repeat it because I –just to clarify in my mind. Was there any question ar ound the table about something going to tender–what going to tender? Mr. Wharton : Going to tender to find the most reasonable building for your needs. Ms. McKay: When we were sitting around the table, the discussion was about that particular building. My assumption is that that had already happened.

My work had to do with bringing the people together to try to make happen this program that we were talking about. Mr. Chairperson: We thank you very much for your presentation and answers to the questions, Ms. McKay. Time has expired. We will be moving on to the next presenter. Thank you. This concludes the list of out -of-town presenters I have before me. We will now move to the presenters that require a translator. The first name on the list I have is Hi mmat Bhullar. Himmat Bhullar? Mr. Bhullar does not seem to be present. We will drop his name to the bottom of the list.

The next person I have on my list that requires a translator is Lakhvir Sehajpal. Could you pronounce your–so I don't make a mistake i n your name, if you could please pronounce your name. Mr. Lakhvir Sehajpal (Private Citizen): My name is Lakhvir Sehajpal. Mr. Chairperson: And you require a translator? Mr. Sehajpal: Yes. Mr. Chairperson: So we have Ms. Sohi that will translate for you. She needs to be behind the mic so you can speak to her, and then she will translate for the committee. You may start your presentation. Mr. Sehajpal: Okay. Punjabi spoken. Mr.

Chairperson: Sorry, you have to speak to the translator, and then she will speak in the mic. You may proceed. Ms. Jaskirat Sohi , on behalf of Mr. Sehajpal: I was very hurt to hear about what happened to these kids. Children should not get affected by the government policies. Government should continue with whatever policies are going on, and they can make new policies, but they should continue with the old ones, as well. We are all intelligent, educated people. They are immature; they need help. And that's what we need to do: help them as a community.

They are immature and we have more experience, so we should help them as much as we can. I have given my time here. I have left my work and come here just to talk about them. And if we don't help them on humanitarian grounds, and–then who else will help them? If the government and the community and people will not help, then who else will help them? They're not my relatives but, on humanitarian grounds, we should help them, make policies to make it better for them to live and continue with the old ones. But we can–if we have to make new ones, they should be for their betterment.

We are the bench, we are t he people, and it is in our hands to help them out. We can't just depend on God for everything. We as humans should help them. We have trust in the committee and we are here to just support them. And we believe in you and we trust in you, and we hope that something good comes out for them. Thank you so much. * (19:00)

38 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Sehajpal. Mr. Allum: I wanted to thank you for taking time off work today to come in and to testify before the committee and to shar e in your thoughts that clearly come from your heart. So, much appreciation and thank you. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Sehajpal: Thank you. Mr. Helwer: Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I want to assure you, as we heard earlier, that there were three children th ere. They are in the care of Southern First Nations, we–in good care. But I'm curious–do you want to tell him that? Ms.

Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Sehajpal : He says that they will be happy where they are. It's not important that if you give them a mansion t o live they'll be more happy. Mr. Helwer: My question then is –I'm wondering who told him that –falsely–that children were evicted? Ms. Sohi , on behalf of Mr. Sehajpal: He says he lives in Winnipeg and he's heard it, like, as everybody's talking about it. Ms. Klassen: I just wanted to say thank you and I think your language is beautiful. I'm so honoured every time I hear people speak in their own language.

Both my parents went through residential school and their language was beaten out of them and so they didn't pass it on to their children, and so I myself didn't know my language growing up. And so I really appreciate hearing your being allowed a translator here in the House, and I hope that, as a First Person of this Canada of ours, that one day I will only be able to speak in my own language and that I'll need a translator for myself in my own country. Megwetch. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Sehajpal: He says thank you. He's understood what she said. Mr. Chairperson: Do we have any further questions?

We want to thank you for your presentation and we will now move to the next presenter. Thank you. Our next presenter is Mark Singh. Mark Singh? Is Mark Singh present? Mark Singh? Mr. Singh, you may proceed with your presentation when you are ready. Ms. Sohi , on behalf of Mr. Mark Singh (Private Citizen): Good evening, everyone. When I heard about the news, I was very upset and wondering why this is happening and what the government is doing. For their own personal reasons or for their own motives or personal reasons, this –all this that's happening is not appreciated by him.

It should not be done, whatever's happening. We should stop what's happening. That's it. Thank you. Mr. Allum: Just wanted to thank you for taking time out to come and speak to us in your own language and also to share your thoughts with us tonight. Thank you so much. Mr. Mark Singh: Thank you. Ms. Klassen: I want to say thank you for coming today. Mr. Mark Singh: Thank you. Mr. Helwer: Thank you, Mr. Singh, for coming. I want to reassure you the children are well -cared for and have been looked after by the authority. Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions?

This concludes the list of presenters we have that require a translator. Are there any other persons in attendance who wish to make a presentation in Punjabi? Seeing none, does the committee agree to permit the translation staff to leave the meeting? [Agreed] The translation staff may leave the meeting. Thank you very much for your services. [interjection] Oh, do we have– Mr. Gu rjit Singh Sandhu, you require a translator for your presentation? Mr. Gurjit Singh Sandhu (Private Citizen): Yes. Mr. Chairperson: You may proceed with your presentation, Mr. Gurjit Singh Sandhu. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr.

Sandhu: Good evening, everyone. My name is Gurjit Singh Sandhu, and I am an engineer by profession, and I –when I came to Canada, I came in 2004. He moved to Canada because he was fed up with the Indian politi cs. Each

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 39 time the government changed, whatever contracts were there, they were cancelled; every time the government changed, the previous contractors, their contracts were cancelled, so he was not happy. They even send the contractors to the jails. Each time the government –new government came in, they changed the systems every time we had a new government. Every time the government changes, the leases –all the previous lease agree- ments, everything was cancelled and they were given to different people and new agreements and new lease policies, everything was made new.

And he feels it's the same thing is happening here in Manitoba. And government has 200 reasons to cancel the lease. I feel there's no difference between the Indian politicians and the Manitoba politicians. So he says, I have a question that if it's the same story there, then I've moved to Canada, but why is–like, the story is still the same. * (19:10) Thirty years ba ck, the economy was better in Canada, but now, the economy has gone down and so has the Indian economy. Okay, you say it then. Mr.

Sandhu: Years ago, like when we–when the Indian system was right, politicians are not cancelling all the leases and agreemen ts. That time, Indian economy is so high. It's like dollar equals to dollar as a US dollar, like we are. But now, these corrupt politicians make the Indian government like– their economy is–now is like 50 per cent down. You can buy a $1 equal to 50 rupees because of all these agreements–we cancel all the agreements one day, we put a lot of money and a lot of time spent to do the–another agreement.

So when we guys keep cancelling the agreements, nothing–like, if we cancel one facility and open up another one, other one won't serve you as a free. The second facility costs us the same money, maybe more. Plus it adds up over time. What we're spending here adds up a lot of engineers' times, adds up a lot of other people time. So if we want to save the time, we ke ep our–all the agreements, I think, the way we do. We think before doing the agreements, not in the halfway. What I feel. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Mr.

Sandhu, but I must remind you that –to carefully use your language in here. It is a –parliamentary, so just to be –just to caution you on the language you use. Mr. Allum: Mr. Sandhu, thank you so much for coming tonight, sharing some of your background and some context for us and your thoughts and observations. It's much appreciated that you would take the time to address the committee tonight. Mr. Sandhu: Thank you, sir. Mr. Fielding : Yes, thanks as well. And we sometimes ourselves have some problems with the language as well in terms of the language we use amongst our–each other.

But I want to thank you for coming out, sir. Mr. Chairperson: Any other questions? We'd like to thank you for your presentation, Mr. Sandhu. And at this point, that concludes the list of presenters requiring translation services. I'd like to thank Ms. Sohi for translating for us. We thank you very much for coming out this evening and helping us out. We will now call on our next presenter. [interjection] You cannot speak in committee unless I recognize you. We need your name. Everybody who registered was supposed to say that they needed a translator when they registered.

So we will move to– What is the will of the committee? Apparently, there are three more people who require translation services. Should–and we don't have their names handy here. They registered, but they don't have those names handy. Should we move on to the first person on their list for the sake of time, or– An Honourable Member: I make a motion that we move to the front of the–from the top of the list. Mr. Chairperson: Is that in agreement with everybody in the committee, to move on until we can get that–we have the translator, I believe, 'til 9:30? Correct? Floor Comment: And, overtime, you need me. Mr.

Chairperson: Okay, so is it an agreement then, until we can list those three other presenters? [Agreed]

40 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 Mr. Lindsey: I just want to make sure what we're agreeing to: that we're going to move back to the list until we get the names straightened out for those that need translator, and then we'll revert to the translator? Mr. Chairperson: That is correct. Okay, so in the meantime, until we can get the list of people organized here, we will call on Elsie Flette, private citizen. Elsie Flette? Ms. Flette, do you have any written material for the committee? Ms. Elsie Flette (Private Citizen): I have pictures. Yes. Mr. Chairperson: Staff will distribute that for you. Ms.

Flette: I don't know if there's enough colour copies, so you'll have to argue about who gets colour and who gets black and white. Mr. Chairperson: And you may proceed with your presentation when you are ready. Ms. Flette: Okay. Well, thank you for the opportunity to speak to bill C–to Bill 32. You should know offhand that I'm opposed to it. I'm speaking as a private citizen right now. However, I was the CEO at the southern authority, or the network, and was one of the key principles in negotiating this lease.

And so, a lease that at least one member of this government has characterized as indefensible, I am here to defend and to explain and provide some background for you as to what this lease was about, what this facility was about and the steps that we took to negotiate the terms of this lease, and the purpose of it. So, I'll refer to the pictures in my presentation, but I want –I just want to sha re with you the history of the arrangement. I want to highlight some of the inaccuracies that I have heard in the media from the Premier (Mr.

Pallister) and, as well, in reading Hansard, from the presentation when the bill was introduced in the House. And I also want to highlight at the end, I guess, some of the concerns with a government taking this kind of heavy-handed approach to terminate a lease. In social services, we have struggled for a long time to engage the business community because they have resources, they have money and, in my opinion, an obligation to help out with the social issues of the day.

And I believe that this government shares that because they have committed and are engaged in a process regarding social investment bonds, which also involves investors and paying them a return on their investment for programs. And the return on that investment is higher than would normally be a rate of return, I guess. So concerns related to when a business community is treated or when the business partner, in this instance, when government is –has the ability to heavy-handedly enact legislation to terminate a contract, which no one else can do.

If I have a dispute about my lease or my mortgage or any contract I have signed, I have the ability to go to the court and it's in the court's jurisdiction to resolve those contractual disputes, and it should not be brought to a legislative table where a bill can be enacted specifically on one address. * (19:20) I know when the Premier was asked about this in the media, and I saw the clip, and he referenced the Jockey Club–unfortunate reference, in my opinion, because we’re not talking about a club for jockeys; we're talking about a home and a residence for kids in need of services.

So I know that the questions –and I've seen them today, but when the bill was introduced in the House, there were comments made about the untendered agreement for a facility that was never appropriate for child care and that the building lease and its terms were not in the public interest, and that the landlord had refused to agree to reasonable termination, which the landlord can speak to. But I can tell you about the process that led up to this and how this was a joint–a partnership.

And every step of the way, the authority–myself and our CFO–engaged with the Province and walked this lease through, dealt with the issues that–the concerns around the tendering, around the rate. There was negotiations to bring this lease finally to a place where everybody could agree to it.

The southern authority did not sign the lease until we had a letter from the Province telling us that it had been through civic–civil legal, it had gone through property management and infrastructure–whatever those committees are–it had gone through supply and services, it had gone through Treasury Board, Treasury Board had approved it and so had Cabinet. And once we got that letter, that is when we signed the lease.

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 41 This whole issue s tarted–or, the need for this began as a result of the hotel reduction strategy. And many of you will recall –and certainly members in the government now, who were very vocal on the opposition at that time about kids being in hotels – and rightfully so, that is not a place for kids in need– that initiative started in November of 2006, or thereabouts. The authorities and agencies were given some start-up money. There was some funds set up for the hotel reduction strategy. Those funds were time limited to the fiscal year.

So that was another piece with the urgency of the matter to get something going, because if we didn't have something going, we would lose the ability to access those dollars. In April of '07, we received a letter. And by we, I'm talking about the authority where I was CO at the time, but I'm speaking now on my behalf. We received a letter from the minister of the department and–advising that the Province was prepared to support the Southern First Nations Network of Care in the regard and to com mit to a long -term funding arrangement. We were particularly concerned with not just creating another shelter system.

There are shelters out there. They are full of kids, including infant children. They continue to be full of kids, including infant children. We did not want that. We wanted an emergency facility where kids could come–high- needs kids. We looked at the older age group in this instance.

We also wanted an attached facility where assessments could be done so that when a child came in, was there for 90 days, there was a proper assessment done with the hope and the vision and the plan–the objective that when that child left, there would be a good match of a placement for that child because there would be a better understanding of the needs of that child. And you'll see from the diagrams I handed out that the

section of the building that was for the assessment unit, we had the medical people involved, we had the police involved, we had MATC and the mental health involved, we had youth corrections involved, we had the education system involved. The vision was that those partners –and they worked with us in a committee as partners –would all place a staffperson in the facility. They would supply the operating dollars for that staff person so we would have a fully staffed assessment unit with really no new cost to government because those costs were already being borne by another agency.

The authority put two of its staff there to monitor the stream of emergency placements. In addition to this facility , the authority also set up a group of emergency homes where kids could go in just a more of a foster home setting. We had explored numerous options for such a facility that would meet this proposal. So Adele was not the first and the only option we looked at. In fact, we were approached by the businessmen that became the owners because they had heard that we were looking for something for this purpose.

Our goal was to eliminate hotel placements, but we also wanted to reduce our use and reliance on shelter placements. Those shelter placements are very costly. At the time, probably the cost is the same or somewhat higher, probably, on average three to four hundred dollars a day. And in a shelter, children get no programming and no service. It's basicall y a roof over their head. They're not secure settings. A child can go in one door and out the other the same way –the issues that were part of the problem with hotel placements as well.

Se we wanted a facility that could be semi - secure, not that the kids we re locked up, but that the front doors were locked and a child could not easily leave. So, when we were approached by this group of businessmen who said there was a building up for sale–it was owned by sisters, as someone has already said, and they wante d the use of that facility to be similar to their objectives and their values that they had had as sisters. They were all retiring, and so they were selling the building.

So that led to the purchase of Adele by this particular group and solely for the pur pose of providing us with the resource to develop this assessment unit and the emergency placements. The funding streams that we propose in the proposal and were all –all were vetted through by Treasury Board, were that there would be a residential sectio n, so the residential care costs would–could be covered there through the per diems, and then the assessment unit, primary cost would be covered by the partners, like police, education.

We had a teacher in there; we had –MATC had committed to a therapist be ing seconded there at their expense but to pay operating costs and so on. So we had a very active partnership. We did a lot of work with the community. We had community

42 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 information evenings, and when we did the grand opening, we had a lot of people from the community there. In the time I was there– I left the authority in 2013–we had had no incidents with the community. We set out an RFP for proposals to people who provided residential care, and through that process we selected Marymound, and Marymound w as the one that was providing the residential -care services. They are a known, credible organization that looked after these children. These children were not in care with the authority.

That is mistaken information because children are in care with agen cies, and we had children–children were placed in that facility from any one of the authorities, primarily the indigenous authorities because this was an indigenous -operated facility with a very strong emphasis on indigenous programming–our cultural programming.

The questions and concerns that have come up– I've heard come up here this evening and that were raised in media stuff around the tendering process, the prepayment of rent, those –amount of rent per square foot, those were all issues that went back and forth between Treasury Board probably over a period of– Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Flette, your 10 minutes for your presentation has expired. Mr. Allum: I wonder if the committee would grant Ms. Flette leave to complete her presentation. Mr. Chairperson: Is there –what is the will of the committee? Is the committee agreed to allow Ms.– Mr.

Martin: I think we have a full slate of individuals who have registered to speak. I agree with my colleague, but if we could set a time limit, say an additional two minutes to conclude your remarks, again in fairness to the other presenters who are also waiting to share their remarks. Ms. Flett e: So we signed a copy of the lease in October '08 and somewhere in '09 the program – residential care program started, and we started moving partners in for the assessment unit.

At the present time, while it was a 20 -year lease, at the present time the cost of this lease is $24.20 a square foot, which is well within or below current market rates, and the savings that were talked about, the $500,000 and what the authority could do with it, much of that money really is for residential care and those children are –there are still children in need of care and in need of beds, and money is still being spent in that regard.

So, in closing, I guess, I would also like to say, you know, the impact that this has on a business community and the ability of social service organizations who are strapped for money to approach this business community and ask for their involvement, I think, is jeopardized when government is able to use this kind of heavy -handed approach to terminate leases and terminate agreements instead of sitting down and negotiating the matter. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Ms. Flette. Mr. Allum: Ms.

Flette, I would be remiss if I didn't thank you for your considerable contribution to the well-being and care of children in Manitoba over your distinguished career. And I also think that, to my knowledge, anyways, no member around this table was here at the time, so the context, background, and information and detail that you provided tonight, I think, is helpful to all members. * (19:30) So I just wanted to thank you so much for coming in and providing testimony to the committee. Ms. Flette: Well, thank you, and I would like to encourage this committee to take a step back.

We have a facility that is good, that can be used. There's children in need. And to take a step back and negotiate with the owners for –to find some use for this facility. If the southern authority no longer wishes to do it, there are other groups who would be willing to step up. Mr. Wharton : Thank you, Ms. Flette, for your presentation tonight. And I'll echo the comments of my colleague, that we certainly app reciate the work you do for the children, of course, that were –that you mentioned tonight.

And, really, I guess my question is, in your presentation, you talked about the owner –the owners approaching you about the building. How did they know your need? [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Flette.

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 43 Ms. Flette: Sorry. The issue of hotel reduction strategy was in the media every single day and we were being interviewed every day about what are we doing, what are we doing. And so it was out there. I don't know how the owners heard about it, but they phoned us. We had no relationship with these businessmen at the time, and they phoned us and said, we know you're looking and we think we have a building. And that's how the process started with them. Mr.

Wharton: Next question: You mentioned, too, in your presentation about, you know, of course, being a CEO –I'm a former CEO of my company – understand the importance of, you know, making sure we get it right and, of course, looking at rate of return on ROI is very important. I guess my question would be, naturally, you're looking at a large commitment here. Was it –was this a tendered process? [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Flette. Ms. Flette: Sorry. It was not. The authority is not obligated to tender. We ar e not obligated to follow –we are an arm's -length organization.

We have the –the authorities have ability to raise their own funds, although they are primarily dependent on the Province. And we did raise–that issue was addressed with Treasury Board at the time, to their satisfaction. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Klassen, you had a question? Ms. Klassen: Yes. I just wanted to say thank you for your presentation. We did have Tara Petti, the CEO of southern First Nations, come in and present, and she brought a great perspective as well.

We are moving towards getting our children back in our home communities and really appreciate all the work that you did, and this building is still located here in Winnipeg, and I would really rather see a building of such greatness l ocated in a First Nation community because we do want our children back in our own home communities. But I appreciate all the work that you have done. Thank you. Ms. Flette: I think that was one of our objectives in getting good assessments, why the children are there. Many of them did go back to home community.

And we do know that most of the children in care are provincially funded and in the city. So it is necessary to have a resource here and then be able to move them back to communities from that facility. Mr. Wharton : So, again, you mentioned that it – there wasn't a tender. So is it safe to say, then, that perhaps, that this was sole-sourced? Ms. Flette: Can you tell me what you mean by that? Mr. Wharton: Meaning that it didn't go to tender, so it was sole-source awarded. [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Flette. Ms. Flette: I talk too much. It did not go to tender, as I already said.

But as I also explained, we had looked at numerous other facilities, and we were looking for a specific facility in an area, and we were under a time crunch to use hotel reduction strategy funds. Mr. Wharton: And thank you again. And so, why did we –you end up choosing this company, as CEO of the company? Ms. Flette: They were the only ones that came forward with a viable building that we could use. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation, M s. Flette, as we are basically out of time for questions.

We have another out -of-town presenter that wasn't marked with an asterisk but is an out -of-town presenter, No. 10, Josephine D'Andrea. Is it –what is the will of the committee? That we hear Josephin e before we move on to the rest of the presenters? [Agreed] We will move on to presenter No. 10, Josephine D'Andrea. Do you have written material for the committee? Ms. Josephine D'Andrea (Kelburn Recovery Centre): Yes, I do. Mr. Chairperson: Our staff will distribute it, and as soon as they've got a bunch of it distributed, you may proceed with your presentation. Ms. D'Andrea, you may proceed. Ms.

D'Andrea: Good evening, Mr. Chair and honourable members. My name, as the Chair said, is Josephine D'Andrea, and I'd like to just first say just a little bit about me and why I'm here. It's been many, many, many years since I've made a presentation on behalf of a social service of any kind.

44 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 I also am an immigrant. I came here when I was eight years old. No one asked my opinion as to where I should go–or, where we should go, and I landed in Manitoba. And very happy about that and very proud to be a Manitoban. However, I was the oldest of all my siblings in an ethnic community, so at 15 years old I was out there working to help my family. With a grade 8 –grade 10 education, that doesn't leave much of a future. However, I've had an unbelievable amount of mentors who saw things in me that I sure didn't see and kept propelling me to achieve.

I have achieved; even with a grade 10 education, I have achieved in Manitoba. Bless Manitoba. I have had –excuse me–business careers that I have been a regional manager for western Canada for Equifax, plus administrative officer for a worldwide insurance agency and various other things. I have always felt unbelievably fortunate that I've been able to achieve what I've achieved with being an immigrant and also with my limited education. If I was a man, I'd be standing here and bragging about it, being a self -made man, but being a woman, we apologize for it. Let me say that I wanted to give back.

I have had a number of very successful social enterprises that I have founded. Villa Cabrini was one of them, and it stands in all its glory, bricks and mortar, when I didn't know what I was doing. But God bless the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy, who saw what I was capable of putting together and the team that we put together, and it became a reality. After that came many, many projects. But let me just give a couple. The other one wa s the Italian chamber of commerce that is federally charted by the Canadian government.

And I then thank the then provincial premier of Gary Filmon, who helped mentor and bring it to fruition. And that chamber of commerce is one of 72 Italian chambers arou nd the world. After that, I said we need something more. I had family members that went through mental health and addiction, and looking for services in our province, 20 years ago our province was a wasteland, was a pathetic wasteland. And the services w e found were always outside of the province. I thought, damn it, you know, I can do something about this.

I now know what I'm doing when I'm doing a project, not with Villa Cabrini, where ignorance was bliss. So I wanted to fill a gap in our province. I did not want to duplicate hundreds of agencies that were already in the mix doing whatever they were doing. And I founded St. Raphael Wellness Centre. I took it out of a basement as a church –little counselling session–and converted it into a community -based centre that is still, to this day, doing damn good work in the addiction field. I left a business career to do that. Not to sound like Mother Teresa, but I thought I'll leave my business career for three years.

And it was a very successful business car eer. I was earning good, big- time dollars when you could count on one hand how many female lawyers were in our ranks and how many female branch managers. I was a regional manager for western Canada–excuse me. * (19:40) I left my business career for three years, and I founded St. Raphael centre. Nineteen years later, I'm still at it because our system was dysfunctional. I'm not going to go into detail on that system because our VIRGO report has very, very detailed and 'quantative' dysfunction in their report as to what we have in Manitoba.

That's today's government that has had the foresight to call for a VIRGO report, and God bless the day's government. However, let me say that 10 years ago, when I was still running SRWC, 10 years ago another entity, another government of the day was trying to fulfill their lease at Hecla to put together a wellness centre. I was asked to help them to have this become a reality–10 years ago –that there was going to be a state-of-the-art wellness centre to include mental health and addictions. In those days, nobody was talking mental health. Me. That's it.

Me, 19 years ago, saying, so you get people sober and so you help them, then what? You've got to put in the mental health. Ten years ago, the government of the day woul d not –would not–honour that lease, and it did not come to fruition. Let me say to you –just imagine for one second how many lives could have been helped –how many lives could have been helped –that would now be taxpaying citizens. So unfortunately, these lease issues are not the privy of any one government, but governments seem to be attracted to being heavy -handed in some of the tactics that have been carried out in the past.

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 45 I'm here today because of the centre that the lease is in question of. That is the most vulnerable of our vulnerable. I've had many indigenous clients over the years –in these past 19 years, where I was only going to do it for three years. Nineteen years. I'm an immigrant and my parents and various others fr om Europe came with trauma into this country. Our trauma is absolutely nothing, it's a cakewalk compared to our indigenous children and indigenous citizens, as to the traumas that they continuously have to try and overcome.

This centre that the lease is now in question of was critical, and it is critical to be honoured. These children are our tomorrow's taxpayers and citizens. Don't throw at me, three children or 13 children. Put a price on one child –put a price on one child–and I ask you, what will that price be? Please, I beg you, please do not follow other governments. I am apolitical. I have had the great, great benefit of having Premier Ed Schreyer as a board member on SRWC; the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy as a mentor; the Premier Gary Filmon as a mentor; the Honourable James Downey as a mentor.

I do not discriminate, but governments of the day can make mistakes, and this is a huge mistake. Please honour your lease. Do not go to Bill 32. That's heavy-handed. That's autocratic. That's absolutely autocratic, and we in Manitoba don't do things like that. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you for your presentation, Ms. D'Andrea. Mr. Lindsey: Just want to thank you for taking time to come and present and really give us a sense of your passion for what it is you've done and hopefully help us all make the right decision. So thank you very much for coming. Ms. D'Andrea: Thank you. Mr.

Fielding : Yes, you know, further to the member's comments, thank you for coming out and making your presentation. Ms. D'Andrea: Thank you again. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. D'Andrea? Sorry, I didn't turn the speaker on. Mr. Helwer: Thank you, Ms. D'Andrea, for coming tonight. You sound like you have considerable business and legal background and have been very successful. Thank you for your contributions. I'm wondering, if you think back to the things that you've done, do you think it is reasonable and defensible for a government to pay $500,000 a year for a building that was purchased for $669,000? [interjection] Mr.

Chairperson: Ms. D'Andrea. Ms. D'Andrea: So sorry. Let me ask you a question. You're now playing politics, and so I'm going to throw it back at you because leases are entered into for a range of dollars, and it's not what the value of the building is and not what the value of the lease is, but what is agreed to. And, if it was agreed to as a fair and market value of the day –of the day –or whatever reasons, it was legally binding. And we as governments in our province do not overnight become autocratic because someone else did not like –that you did not like the way someone else did it.

If it was legally binding, you hold to that legally binding until it is over and done with and then you renegotiate. Mr. Wharton: Thank you, Ms. D'Andrea. When you mentioned Villa Cabrini on River Avenue, the building, I believe, was built in the '80s. [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Ms. D'Andrea. Ms. D'Andrea: Thank you, sorry. Actually, there is a story to that. I started with this bloody vision in 1979, and the whole community was up against it.

I then formed an Italian women association, and the male part of the Italian community was telling all the women, don't you know–or my husband– don't you know how to keep your wife at home? So the building opened in 1985. There were all parties involved, all levels of party: the City, the Province and the federal. And the reason why all of them became involved was because of the opposition. Nobody wanted it there. And you know what? Because of all those parties being involved in the opposition, we became creative. That was the first building with underground parking.

That was the first building with commercial space on the first floor. That was the first building where it had all the amenities that it had. And you know where we copied it from? Columbus Centre in Toronto.

46 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 So God bless opposition, because that building was then used as the model for across Canada. Mr. Wharton : Well, thank you for that, and obviously you're passionate about it. And it's funny because when I owned my business, that was the first building that I was –had the opportunity with my company to bid on a tender to do all the moving into that building. So we were the successful proponent on the tender, and that's how we got our start in the moving business. So thanks for bringing back that memory; it was great. Ms. D'Andrea: You owe me. Mr.

Chairperson: Are there any further questions for Ms. D'Andrea? Thank you very much for your presentation. We will now move back to the presenters –we will move back to the presenters that need translation services, presenter No. 8 and No. 18 that were there that now need translation services. We also have two new presenters that are asking for translation services. Should we do those two as well so we'd have a total of four presentations? What is the will of the committee? [Agreed] Okay, then, we will move on now to presenter No. 8, Jaserwt Singh. Mr. Singh, do you have any written material for the committee? Ms.

Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Jaserwt Singh (Private Citizen): I'll explain my thoughts verbally. I don't have anything written. * (19:50) Mr. Chairperson: You may proceed with your presentation when you're ready, Mr. Singh. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Jaserwt Singh : We supported the PC government. We've always supported, and we helped them and supported them. But, after hearing what is happening with the children, we are very upset and feeling that this is wrong, and we've made a wrong decision by having them in power. The rules can't be changed overnight.

Rules being changed overnight is not accepted, and we always thought that it's a good government and we supported them, but you cannot change the rules overnight. We should think about the chil dren and especially children who are challenged. We should not break rules, and we should not throw children out like that, out of the building. The lease still has time, so you –we should make arrangements. All the facilities were there, provided in that house, and so we should take that into consideration. We like the government, but we are surprised that why this–it–all this happened overnight.

We are very worried about –and our whole community is very worried about these children and about what's going to happen, and it should–this overnight changes and–should not be there. If this rule can be changed overnight, then all other rules can also be changed overnight, and nobody–the other communities will also feel insecure. The lease should not change ver y soon if you have time. It's for 10 years, so then you can sit and talk to the landlord and discus the lease instead of just cancelling it overnight. We should think about the children's future, as well, who are living in the house.

All the–the building had all the facilities which were needed by the students, or by the children, as far with the challenges of special needs, so it should be saved and the government should think about it. We should try and keep the lease and make a better future for th e children. Everyone feels very safe and they feel right if the lease is kept and not broken. We trust the country and we feel that, as immigrants, we love Canada and we trust the country, but if we feel insecure if the rules are changed overnight.

We come here with –and we work hard and we have a lot of trust in the government and in Canada and we feel if –we feel insecure as immigrants. As immigrants we feel insecure that the way the rules change, so if we work hard we –and we earn and the rules keep cha nging, so that gives us a little insecurity. Thank you for giving me time to speak and I respect the time given to me. Thank you very much. Mr. Helwer: And I'll do this in two parts so as to not overwhelm the translator.

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 47 I want to thank you for coming tonight. I want to reassure you, as we have with everyone else, that the children that were in this facility are not at risk. They are well-cared for. * (20:00) Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Singh? Mr. Helwer: I've got another part. Mr. Chairperson: Yes, I know, but do you want to ask the rest of the question, then? Mr. Helwer: Yes. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, Mr. Helwer. Mr. Helwer: Just further confirmation: this is not overnight. The building has been vacant by the southern authority since 2013.

The government tried to make use of the facility and tried for a couple years. And it did not work. We've worked with the owners, but this is –we were not able to make appropriate changes. Ms. Sohi , on behalf of Mr. Jaserwt Singh: That time, the government was NDP, and now it's PC. So the building should have been saved. The building should have been, like, kept for the –to the children. And in 2013, the government was NDP government, and now it's PC government, so the building by this government should have been saved for the students– for the children, because it was made for one particular purpose. Mr.

Allum: Mr. Singh, thank you so much for coming out here tonight. I couldn't help but agree with the first part of your presentation. I think many Manitobans are having reservations and second thoughts about the Pallister government, and it looks like they'll get the opportunity to toss 'em out any time soon. An Honourable Member: Oh, and I was being kind to you. Mr. Allum: Well, he –I had to say it, whether you object or not.

I also thought you made a number of interesting and important points, and I want you to know –it's really important for you and other newcomers to hear: I thank you for coming to Canada and coming to Winnipeg and Manitoba. Keep using your voice to speak out. It's very important that you do. Thank you so much. Mr. Jaserwt Singh: Thank you very much. Really appreciated, but we are coming here for hard work. So we want to support you guys, but I think you keep it–that building –so if I have a leasing agreement more than a year so everybody happy here. You guys are happy; the landlord are happy; this children happy.

So good for you guys, good for everyone. Everyone having more safe inside. If you guys taking a little bit–like, give him –like, a landlord a little bit support. They are spending lots of money. And renovation inside and lots of money the y are spending in renovation and lots of–so they can–really safe inside if you guys give us a little bit time, so they are safe and safe for children come back there. They have the same room, same home. So everyone is safe here. Also, we are –our community always–I–like I explained to you guys, our community, lots of people supports you guys.

As well, me –support too much you guys in–who –when you guys elected. So we want support all life you guys, but if you guys give a landlord a little bit of support and t he children, everyone happy here. Everyone is safe inside and feels safe. Mr. Chairperson: Mr.–oh. Are you done? Mr. Wharton : Again, thank you, Mr. Singh, for your presentation tonight and, of course, your passion, as we all around the table share, on the safety of our children. And, as my colleague said earlier, you can be assured that the children are being well looked after now and have been since 2013 and have not resided in that building.

I can also advise that, you know, that the Province and the government does have over – thousands of leases and contracts and–in our care and, quite frankly, this is the only one that we've seen like this. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Singh, we have a couple seconds left, so if you could just briefly answer. Mr. Jaserwt Singh: Okay, so, really appreciate you guys listen to me. So I feel inside, feel safe if here you guys give him a little bit time, landlord, and like a little bit time for the children, everyone happy here. And all, you know, all life–our community has– Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Singh, your time has expired.

We thank you very much for your presentation. We will now call on presenter No. 18, Jagtar [phonetic] Gill. Jagtar [phonetic] Gill?

48 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 Mr. Gill, you need a presenter? [interjection] Sorry, a translator? Do–you don't have any written material for the committee? Mr. Jadbar Gill (Private Citizen): Yes, I'm here for Bill 32, so. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, so number –Mr. Gill, you may–oh, he's speaking in English now? [interjection] Okay, if you do not need a transla tor, Mr. Gill, then we will move you down the list, because we need to make sure we get everybody who definitely needs a translator. So if you will just back up, we will bring you up when your turn comes.

So the next presenter that needs a translator is Kulwinder Chahal. Kulwinder Chahal? Mr. Chahal, you need a translator? You may–Ms. Sohi, if you may go up there? Ms. Sohi , on behalf of Mr. Kulwinder Chahal (Private Citizen) : If the lease is broken midway, how will we trust the government? We trust the government, but if the lease is broken in between, then how do we trust the government? There are a number of children in that building, so if the building is not given–if they are take–told to leave the building, then what is the future of these children?

The children are–they have a few challenges, so –and they need support, they need help. And if they are just taken out of the building, then what kind of a future and security do they have? If they are moved out, the money will be spent on the new building and on the new facilities that you will be catered for. So money is going to be spent there as well. * (20:10) Children feel more comfortable and they are–at wherever they're staying. And they know the no-how of the whole place. They are familiar; they feel more secure. And, if you take them to a new place, they'll have to adjust again and take time to adjust.

If the children are not taken care of and if they're just left like –then it'll be very harmful. And anything–anybody can mistreat them. So they need to be taken care of. Thank you. Mr. Allum: I just wanted to thank you so much for coming out to committee tonight. We're one of the few provinces in Canada that have h earings like this where individual citizens can come and voice their opinion. And so I think it's very important that you came here and that you shared your views with us and that you're very concerned about the well -being of the children of Manitoba. So thank you so much for coming out tonight. Ms.

Sohi , on behalf of Mr. Kulwinder Chahal : Thank you. Mr. Martin: Thank you very much for attending this evening. A common concern of yours was about the children, and you made the comment about the children in this building. And you may not have been here for an earlier presentation from the CEO, but this building has been vacant for six years. There are no children in this building. There have been no children in this building for almost six years, since about 2013. And the three children that were displaced, she advised, are all safe and secure.

So I know the safety of the children was a concern of yours, so I just wanted to put that to rest. Ms. Sohi , on behalf of Mr. Kulwinder Chahal : Thank you. Ms. Klassen: I want to thank you for your presentation. Ms. Sohi , on behalf of Mr. Kulwinder Chahal : Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Any more questions? We now will proceed to our– For the information of the committee, we have four new registered presenters that are requesting a translator. What is the will of the committee? Mr.

Allum: Well, I believe that we should continue with the process we've been following in order to– that our translator, who's performing so admirably for us tonight, can hopefully finish up at some point and go home and enjoy the rest of the evening. Mr. Chairperson: What–is that the will of the committee? [Agreed] Okay, then we will continue on with the presenters that require translation services. Our next presented is Ghulab Singh [phonetic]. Ghulab Singh [phonetic]? Mr. Ghulab Singh [phonetic]? Is Mr. Singh present?

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 49 Floor Comment: He's gone to the washroom. Mr. Chairperson: We will go to the next presenter and then come back to Mr. Singh. We will call Baljeet Singh. Baljeet Singh. Mr. Singh, you require a translator? Ms. Sohi. Mr. Singh, you may start your presentation when you are ready. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Baljeet Singh (Private Citizen): What's the reason for just cancelling the contract, existing contract, whichever that was existing contract? And what was the reason, what was the motive behind just cancelling it?

What is the reason for Bill 32, and what is the reason for starting a new building? The government should continue the way it was going on earlier. Now it's going to affect the taxes. That's what he feels: that if any new changes take place, that is going to increase the taxes. As it is, we are paying the highest taxes in Canada and, like, in Manitoba. The carbon tax is also going to be affecting. That is also included, so the tax is increasing and with the new decisions, the tax is going to go up.

The public should be told about what is happening and what are the–all the expenditure that's going to take place when the move is going to take – moving from one place to the other. There should be an online poll, and public opinion should be taken into consideration about the changes that are being made. Public should be made a ware about what's happening so that–and so that they can also give their opinion in the poll, maybe an online poll. Were the children asked if they were wanting to move to a different place? Were they asked? Are they happy? Have they been asked?

Are they happy in the old residential area or the new one? * (20:20) As it is, they are–they have challenges and if you move them from one place to the other, it can give them more emotional stress. Shifting is not so easy, so it can affect them. What was the need to make this decision? There was–when things are all going fine, so what was the need to do all this? It's just like dictatorship. Everybody should be told on what's happening, and the children should be asked, the public should be asked, and it should not be just a sudden decision.

Why is the meeting taking place now and not when you moved the children in about five years, six years back? Why is the–why is this meeting held now after so many years? That's it. Mr. Wharton : Thank you, Mr. Singh, for your presentation. I appreciate the time you took to come out tonight and share your concerns, and certainly we have concerns as well.

You brought up the issues of high taxes, and we know that Manitoba, under the former government, was the highest taxed jurisdiction west of Quebec, so we certainly agree with you and we have the honour and thank you for the privilege to trying to turn that ship around. Also, too, with the carbon tax, you know the federal government has currently hoisted that on taxpayers of not only Manitoba but Canadians as well. So, to your question, though, on why, you asked, the need for this. Well, I'd mentioned it early in one of my comments that the government in Manitoba has thousands of leases and agreements, Mr.

Singh, that a re negotiated on a regular basis, and this particular one needed to be looked at. And I can assure you, too, as well, that the children are safe and have been safe since 2013 under the current care, of course, of the southern authority, so your concerns are being heard and we're certainly ensuring that we move forward in a very good way, sir. Thank you. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Baljeet Singh: Why was the lease not renewed and why was it discontinued? Mr. Allum: Mr. Singh, thank you so much for coming. You've asked a number of important questions here tonight.

We were hoping the minister might answer some of them, but you don't seem to be getting many answers, but thank you so much for coming tonight. Mr. Chairperson: We want to thank you for your presentation, Mr. Singh, and we will now move on to the next presenter.

50 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Baljeet Singh: Thank you so much, but I did not get my answers. I'm not satisfied. Mr. Chairperson: Amjit [phonetic] Singh. Our next presenter is Amjait [phonetic] Singh. Amitaj? Mr. Singh, you require a translator? Okay, Mr. Singh. You may proceed with your presentation when you are ready. Ms. Sohi? Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Amitaj Singh (Private Citizen): Whatever is happening is not good. The children were very happy where they were, and now it's going to be difficult for them to adjust to a new environment.

The government is supposed to be democratic, but it seems to be that it's more like a dictatorship. The public opinion should have been taken into consideration before passing any bills. All the expenditure, the new expenditure that's taking place while making arrangements for the children, the taxes are going to get higher. And the taxes, obviously, it's the public that –who has to pay the tax. So taxes will increase just because you –the expenses for those children.

The facilities –the new facilities that they're going to get there, all that expenditure is going to be added, and it's –the public is going to be taxed more. The money spent on the new contract could have been saved and spent on the children and on other – on improving Manitoba rather than on just unnecessarily having a new contract and giving it to the contractor with new facilities. So it–they were fine where they were. There was no problem. So why all this has taken place? Because it's increasing the taxes. The other provinces –we are setting a wrong example for the other provinces.

So if we do this, they will follow, and it's not going to be democratic then. * (20:30) If this continues, it'll be difficult for –to get the same government back, to get –difficult to get votes. We came here because this was a democratic country. But it's –doesn't seem to be democratic; it seems to be dictatorship. And things are just happening without public opinion. It's not right what the government is doing with the children, take – moving them from one place to the other. I am not in favour of Bill 32. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Singh. Mr. Wharton : Thank you, Mr.

Singh, for coming tonight a nd sharing your concerns. I would– appreciate the time you've taken for tonight. Thank you. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Amitaj Singh : Thank you so much. Mr. Lindsey: I just want to take the opportunity to thank you for coming and really taking

part in the democratic process that we have in, particularly, this province that allows citizens to come out and voice their opinion on that. So I really want to thank you for coming out and doing that. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Amitaj Singh : Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions? We want to thank you for your presentation, Mr. Singh. And we will now–before we move on to our next presenter, though, I'd like to just remind the public that are observing the meeting tonight that photography, taking pictures, is prohibited unless you're a member of the legislative press gallery.

So I would like to just caution everybody that no picture taking is allowed. We will now move on to our next presenter, Tybir [phonetic] Singh–Tejbir Singh. Mr. Singh, you require a translator? Okay. Ms. Sohi. And Mr. Singh can start his presentation whenever he is ready. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Tejbir Singh (Private Citizen): Good evening, I'm Tejbir Singh. I'm from Punjab, and I moved here because of the country. It's a beautiful country, and it had democracy. But, after coming here, it seems to be dictatorship. And same as–he feels there's no change in India and Canada.

Bill 32 should not be passed because it is not the right thing. The lease should be renewed, and the children should not be moved out. Children are just wasting time.

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 51 Thank you. Mr. Wharton: Mr. Singh, thank you for coming out tonight. We appreciate your comments. Thank you. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Tejbir Singh: Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Lindsey. Oh, just wait, we have more questions for you. Mr. Lindsey: I don't really have a question for you, Mr. Singh, but, again, I just want to thank you for coming out and taking

part in democracy, because that's really what makes de mocracy work, is when people such as yourself share your opinion and participate and make sure that you hold people like us to account for decisions that governments make. So, thank you very much. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Tejbir Singh: Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation. We will now move on to our n ext presenter, Himmat Bhullar. Himmat Bhullar? Himmat Bhullar? Mr. Bhullar, you require translation services? Mr. Himmat Bhullar (Private Citizen): Yes. Mr. Chairperson: Ms. Sohi. And Mr.

Bhullar may start with his presentation as soon as he is ready. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Bhullar: I want to take this opportunity to thank you all for giving me a chance to speak, and I just want to say that I am against this bill. The organization that was already running there, running the show, was already doing a very good job, and instead of giving it to somebody else, maybe you could have –the government should have helped them improve their facilities. And why are they being asked to move out?

The–whichever party wins, it's their people who are in the front and not the party –opposition party people; it's the people in front are the people of the ruling party. It seems to be the same as in India: the ruling party has their own people, and it's the same in Canada. The ruling party, the winning party, have their own people, and–in front and all the opportunities are given to the people of the ruling party, just the same as in India. What is the motive of the government? It was first now with this building and now even with Seven Oaks. There is an issue.

So what is the motive behind all this? * (20:40) I am –I've been here for seven years, and I'm a transporter, and if the –in a truck, everything–where the truck moves, if every –all the parts are functioning. But, if one

part is not functioning well, it–the truck–will be at a halt. So, same goes for the government. The government should take everybody in–everybody's opinion and do what's right. And take everyone's viewpoint, and it –we came here from India, thinking it was–be different, but it seems to be the same with –whatever was in India is the same in Canada. And we are worried that our children, who are born citizens here, will –what kind of a future they will have if the rules k eep changing like this, so they feel insecure.

The 'organation' –organization that's already working with them is doing a good job, so they should be encouraged and they should be helped instead of giving the contract to the new person. The community is v ery worried that if every time a new government comes, they will have their own rules, and it gives them insecurity, that way the rules keep changing with every government coming in in power. So the previous government should be – the previous organization s hould be helped and encouraged and not given to anybody else. We should not make this as a political issue.

We should just think about this children, and the facilities which they had were very good, and they should be provided with the same facilities or maybe better. The previous organization was familiar with the problems and knew how to handle them and what kind of activities they needed, what each one was – what–needed, and it was given to them. But this new contract, they will not know and they will t ake time to understand them and the children may feel insecure and not too happy. Thank you so much. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Bhullar.

52 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 Mr. Wharton: Mr. Bhullar, thank you so much for coming tonight and sharing your stories and your concerns; appreciate that. Thank you so much. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Bhullar: Thank you so much. Mr. Lindsey: I just want to take the opportunity to thank you again, the same as we've thanked some other folks for coming out and participating in the democratic process and sharing your views. And hopefully people in charge will listen to some of those views and act appropriately. So thank you very much. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Bhullar: Thank you so much. Ms.

Cindy Lamoureux (Burrows): I, too, just want to thank you, Mr. Bhullar, for coming out this evening and sharing a little bit about yourself, a little bit about where you're coming from as far as wanting to be able to entrust that your province has your best in mind. And I think t hat we all want to be proud of our province and we want to have confidence that, when there is a contract made or a deal made, that that contract is fulfilled. And so I was hoping that maybe you could expand just a little bit in talking about the fears that you might have. Like, you used the word insecurity.

Do you mind expanding on that a little bit more? Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Bhullar: Insecurity is because the rules keep changing. And if the contracts are not being continued and the lease is getti ng discontinued, so that is giving the insecurity to the community. And then, like, he's giving examples of Seven Oaks emergency –urgent care. That is being discontinued. So the rules are changing, and that gives insecurity to the community. The previous bill–organization has –is trusted. People trust the bill–trust them. They know what – how the children are looked after and how to cater to their needs.

So it's not –we are not very sure whether the new organization is going to do the same, and that little bit of fear is always there. Ms. Lamoureux: Just want to thank you again for coming out and presenting to the committee. It's very nice to be able to hear from Manitobans from all different walks of life. And I think you bring that perspective to tonight's committee. Thank you. Ms. Sohi, on behalf of Mr. Bhullar: Thank you so much. Mr. Chairperson: We want to thank you for your presentation. Seeing no further questions, we will move on to the next presenter. * (20:50) Mr. Ghulab Singh [phonetic]?

This is the second time we are calling Mr. Singh. G hulab Singh [phonetic]? Ghulab Singh [phonetic]? This is the second time Mr. Singh has been called. He does not seem to be present. We will now move to –with the remaining presenters on the list. Mr. Singh has been dropped from the list. We will now move to presenter No. 2, Mr. Dave Hill, private citizen. Dave Hill? Before I recognize you, Mr. Hill, we'd like to once again thank you–thank Ms. Sohi for her translation services, and is it necessary that Ms. Sohi stay around or we have– We want to thank you very much for your services.

You may leave the table when you feel like it. Thank you very much. Mr. David Hill (Private Citizen): I'm a private citizen but I also am with the firm that are acting for the owners. So our firm's getting paid for me being here tonight, but looking at the pride that the honourable Mr. Wharton had in being the CEO of a company that tendered for a job in 1985 and was successful, I'm equally proud that our firm has been hired by the Pawley government, the Filmon government–so we'll go to the wall here –the Doer government and the Selinger government , as well as the Chrétien government.

But let me just take up the point that the honourable Mr. Wharton made. This power that was exercised in the Jockey Club case, and that's–I have a handout for that–I should have put that to you before, and I'll get to it, but that's what the handout's about, the Jockey Club case. This power doesn't depend on whether a contract was even a contract. This power doesn't depend on whether it was a written contract, a verbal contract, a gentleman or gentlewoman's agreement, a funding promise. It also doesn't matter whether the contract, if it's a contract, was tendered.

So the power that I learned about as a result of taking this case –and I've expressed this–I was surprised that I thought I knew

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 53 a lot of law, but every day you learn more. This power is so pervasive that even if Mr. Wharton's company had tendered –and that was a government contract during the Pawley years –that could've been undone by any of the next three administrations. So it doesn't matter whether something's tendered. It's like expropriation. That's what this really does, except expropriation usually requires a public purpose. This power, as I've understood it and come to learn about it, doesn't.

It's a tremendous power, and in my respectful submission–there's the lawyer in me talking –I'm going to suggest that it should be exercised sparingly. So the reason I have given you the handout on – which was a CBC onli ne production, I think, in 2014, about a year after the Jockey Club case. A nd I have to pause there. It's kind of ironic; the judge who decided against the Jockey Club and found in favour of the Province of Manitoba was my partner . The firm used to be called Hill Abra and Dewar.

So it's a little ironic that I'm now –and he had the right to do what he did based on the law, but he wasn't asked the question whether the government of the day could destroy this contract with the Jo ckey C lub without compensation. And so I've given you the end result because in the press conference –and I won't call it a press conference–in the press questions to the honourable Premier the day that the first reading was given, he cited the Jockey Club as an example of the power being exercised. I learned about the Jockey Club when the Justice Department sent me five cases and– of which I knew nothing.

So–but the point is, the government of the day was upheld by Justice Dewar. He refused to give an order qua shing the government's decision. So this wasn't legislation, but they were going to move towards legislation. So he ruled in favour of the government and said this power exists. But obviously, the government of the day must have felt some obligation to the owners of the track, the Jockey Club, and perhaps also to the Peguis First Nation, who was going to enter an agreement with the government. And so this tells you they went on to negotiate a settlement.

And so I don't think the Premier had a chance to give any more to his answer than to say that the Jockey Club was an example of the power being exercised. I'm sure he's aware that there was this end result which was negotiation. But let me clear up one fact which I've heard tonight. My information from my clients–and they'll both be speaking–this –these children, this facility, was not vacant since February of 2013. The children moved out in February of 2019.

So, as a lawyer who goes to court, and we try to deal with the facts, if this committee is legitimately under the misconception that this building was sitting there for six years more and then the government of the day said, well, then why do we lease this building if it's just going to be used for nothing, that's not the facts as I understand them. But more importantly, if the members in this room are under that misconception, if the government of today is under that misconception, if every member of the Legislature is under that misconception, then in my view, it's reason enough to reconsider passing this bill.

Because this power is very pervasive. Some people would call it draconian. The firm that we started in 1980 was called Hill and Walsh. Young lady named Sherri Walsh, now the integrity commissioner for the City of Winnipeg, was –had enough whatever–I won't say the word out loud–to join me when I left Winnipeg's largest firm. She had never heard of it. Our counsel, who's the former chief justice of the province of Manitoba, had not heard of this, which just shows you nobody knows everything about the law. So I'm saying, listen to the owners. Ask them what happened in February and–of 2019, not February 2013.

And then ask yourself the question, are we all going down the wrong trail or track here because we haven't been informed properly? Let me also mention this. As a litigator –in our firm, it's called litigation, so we –I don't do criminal litigation. I don't do–we don't do domestic litigation; you would never want us to do a house deal, we'd screw it up badly–but you try to convince a judge or a committee or a member of –that she should make a decision that's fair. Or if it's more than one, that they should make a decision that's fair. And if it's a man, he should make a decision that's fair.

And I've always gone by that precept in the last 44 years. T he law is one thing, but hopefully, the law and the Legislature who pass laws will be guided by one principle: if you get the facts correct, is it fair to let this bill go ahead? If you get the facts correct, even if you let the bill go ahead, shouldn’t the government of the day follow the lead of the government of the day in 2013 as the Premier relied upon and negotiate with the owners? Because if you don't, it's virtually expropriation without compensation.

54 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 2019 But the problem is, in expropriation, like with the City of Winnipeg, they have to show there's a public purpose for putting somebody off–people got– are getting moved off the Parker Lands because there's going to be a bus route. Whether that's in the public interest or not is –but it's supposedly in the public interest to do so. So ask yourself the question, is it fair to let this bill proceed?

And ask yourself the question, if I now get the facts straight, and if you listen to Elsie Flette and the other people who've talked about not only how it was en tered into –because it wouldn't have mattered whether it was tendered or not. I made that point. And also how apparently things were doing well in this facility. And then, all of a sudden, these people were yanked out in February of this year. Ask yourself, is that fair? * (21:00) So the handout is there to show you the end result.

I'm not suggesting that you just simply sit down and negotiate with my client because I'm suggesting that this bill is unfair when you hear what good this facility was doing and promoting. So, I don't think I've –I haven't seen the Chairman put up the two- minute sign –one minute, okay. I go by two Shakespearean principles; you might go by the first one. He said you should shoot all lawyers. I don't really subscribe to that. It's not one of my favourites, but also he also said brevity is the soul of wit. So I ask you to reconsider this. Thank you very much. Mr.

Chairperson: Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Hill. Mr. Wharton: Thank you, Mr. Hill, for coming out tonight, and I certainly appreciate your words on the record. And you mentioned many times about getting the facts straight, and I just wanted to be clear and put on the record that not once tonight did I mention anything about the Jockey Club, so certainly we could look back on the record in Hansard to confirm that, but I never mentioned it once other than now to correct the record.

And, of course, with Villa Cabrini I was honoured to, as you mentioned, be the CEO of my moving company at the time and have the opportunity to compete in an open tender to be the exclusive mover for the Villa Cabrini, and I certainly thanked and I know that as Ms. Josephine said, I probably owe her one, but it was certainly a great opportunity to be involved in the tendering proces s and be successful. So thank you, and I just wanted to make sure the record was clear. Mr. Hill: I hope I never used your word when I said the thing about the Jockey Club.

It was actually in the press, questions from Jeff Keele, that the Premier referred to the fact that there was precedent for this in the Jockey Club. So then, I didn't know this fact, just as I didn't know about this law. But then I'd been advised, and you have public record of what happened. It was negotiated. So I just –that question wasn't asked of the Premier. I assume he knows the answer, though. Mr. Allum: Mr. Hill, thank you so much for coming out tonight and giving us the benefit of your legal experience and advice. Of course, it's the government and the Minister of Finance (Mr .

Fielding) who introduced the bill, and so, as I said earlier, that I don't believe any member of this committee was here at the time when the original deal came together. So I just want to say to you that I appreciate you trying to bring some clarity a nd some factual information to the table as the committee struggles to understand the government's intent here. So thank you so much for coming tonight. Mr. Hill: I have to tell most clients, and I'll tell this committee: I get paid; you don't have to thank me. Ms. Lamoureux: Thank you, Mr. Hill, for coming out this evening and presenting to the committee.

I appreciate all the facts. You're very factual, logical, and very direct, to the point. You mentioned a little bit how –you really emphasized about f airness and I think that's important and we should be taking that with a grain of salt, and maybe it is –would you say it's fair to say that we want to explore all of the facts, make sure that everyone, all the Legislature –legislators, everyone who can vote on the bill, is aware of the facts, like you said, and I believe you mentioned that it was the owner who had told you that children haven't actually left until this past February in 2019.

That is news to me, for example. I believe that other members of th e Legislature may need to be brought up to date with the actual facts. I'd like to know when you say the owner, who is the owner? I'd like to know some more details.

May 29, 2019 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 55 So is it fair to say that this bill should not be passed until we've discussed those f urther details at the very least? [interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Hill. Mr. Hill: Sorry, I jumped the gun. Two of the owners are sitting just to my left and they'll be speaking. They've signed up to speak, okay. So my ignorance was I didn't know about the law. I also didn't know about the results of the jockey case.

But, in answer to your question, if I was in front of a body that was making a decision and they acknowledged that, not with any fault, they just didn't have the facts straight, I would hope that that body or that woman or man would say let's hold off, let's make sure that I get the facts straight, and what's the hurry. Mr. Fielding: Well, thank you for your presentation. Maybe I'll ask–I'll kind of phrase this in kind of a question just so I'm able to get information out, but you're right, using a legislation to end agreements is something that is not used frequently with governments.

But there is numerous examples, and I will quote a few of them just for your record. So, in 1994, the Liberal government, through the Pearson airport legislation, legislation –it was in 1994–was passed by the House of Commons but was approved by the Senate. There's also a lot of provincial examples, using legislation for contracts. One, of course, was very recent with the Ontario government, t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	41-4-sed3
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	41st 4th hansardpdf sed3.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b388500d54c7dd698698364878d85cc2a91e3424

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