VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRA."!SCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD MONDAY, JULY 23, 1979 NO. 7

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 190 SD - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. o. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Premier. I understand from news reports over the week~nd that he had some meetings, I believe it was on Friday, with representatives of Canadian National.

Could the hon. the Premier indicate to the House whether or not he received any wtlrds of assurance or reassurance with regard to the now confirmed report that certain branch lines are contemplated for closing and that certain positions are contemplated to be declared redWldant? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes 1 Sir, Mr. Speaker, I met with Mr. Messenger and his public relations man on Friday and it was sort of a wide sweeping meeting in which I wanted to do two things on behalf of goverlllllent, Mr. Speaker.

One was to indicate to CN or its representative in the Province that we were not at all happy with the proposed lay offs which were put into effect. Number two, we are not happy with our communications system between the provincial govermnent and CN. The Advisory Board that was supposed to be established has not been established.on which the Province could have permanent representation and they were waitinq for ward back from a number of other agencies around the Province with nominees, so that permanent relationship is really not there the way it should be, but Mr.

Messenger informed us that he would move on that and try to have it in place by September. And I wanted to also indicate to Mr. Messenger that we would be asking for additional meetings with him 467

Jul.y 23, 1979 Tape no. 190 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: and his group over the next number of weeks and months because we wanted to get as much information as we could and develop a policy as it relates 468

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 191 DW - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD : to CN and to also indicate to him and to his company that we would be preparing a position which we would put on the table before CN and also before the Federal Government. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : MR. D. JAMIESON: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that complimentary news reports over the weekend have also indicated that Mr.

Bandeen,in terms of his national responsibilities as President of Canadian National Railways 1 has made it emphatically clear that in so far as he is concerned CN must operate like an ordinary corporation and has no particular responsibilities other than those assigned to it by the Government of Canada, and in view of an earlier statement that in fact this is strictly an Advisory Committee 1 I am very much concerned and 1if I could 1would like to ask the Premier whether in fact any negotiations or talks have gone between the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Government of Canada because as, I understand Mr.

Bandeen's position, it is that he is prepared to do whatever he is instructed to do with regard to the Newfoundland operation provided all deficits are absorbed by 1 presumably 1 some level of government? In other words, he does not take any responsibility for the recommendations made to him by the Advisory committee. If I have not been clear in that question I will be glad to amplify it1 but I wonder if the hon. the Premier could reflect the Messinger response to that? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, I understand the Leader of the Opposition's question very well. In talking to Mr.

Messenger the outward aim, it seems,of CN in Newfoundland is to continue to operate but everything else they do disqualifies that statement, if you will 1 almost. I think it is very important for the Province to talk cirectly to the Federal Government and not just to CN 1because the ultimate responsibility for policy along these lines will be that that comes from the Federal Government and if the Federal Government is willing. I not only want to see the CN rail cc~tinue in the Province but I want to see the subsidy reduced by having an innovative and creative policy 469

Jul y 23, 1979 Tape No. 191 OW - 2 PREMIER i>ECKFORD : towards trying · to make it work, albeit in the short tenn;and perhaps ~:~edi~ te:r:m1 there will be · a subsidy on it. And1 therefore, I think the Province will have to talk to the Federal GOvernment and try to change the policy that now it is articulated by Mr . Bandeen and obviously Mr. Messenger. MR. D. JAMIESON : !o!R. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Leader of There was a very distinguished former Mi.nister of Finance,~Industrial.

Relations and sundry other gracing the gallery. capacities Another supplementary, Mr. Speaker , in view of the fact that the Premier and. I 470

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 192 NM - l MR. JAMIESON: seem to have the same understanding and

interpretation,and in view of my known doubts about CN's commitment to this whole project, I am curious as to whether or not the Advisory Committee 1 for instance,is going to report to Canadian National or what is the mechanism through which the Government of Newfoundland, speaking for the people of Newfoundland, for the employees of Canadian National, is going to say in effect to the Gove~nment of Canada, "This simply is not good enough what the CN has come up with and we want some other kind of arrangetnent." In othe..: »·ords 1 what is the alternative to simply sitting around and advising and CN saying, "Well,we have heard your advice but we are proposing to proceed in this direction anywa~?" MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. the Premier. PRR~IER PECKFORD: ~I. Speaker 1 we are not satisfied. The 6dvisory Board is not set up yet and Mr. Messenger says it is ,, really a board of directors, but when I indicated to him, _Well, yes, it might be a board of directors. The only problem is it really does not have any power, it really only advises, , and a board of directors does have some power. So it is really not the same as a board of directors." It is supposed to meet regularly and this is supposed to be the permanent input that the Province could have. Well 1 I am obviously not satisfied with that.

I have indicated that to Mr. Messenger and I want to be able to sit down with him and his group over the next few weeks on this matter. Now what we intend to do, Mr. Speaker, as I have announced, is to develop over the next short while, as quickly as we can, a policy on the railway, which we will not only present to CN but we will also present to the federal government 1 which will outline in detail how we want this thing to be handled, the kind of permanent relationships in communication and so on that should be established. I think it is big.

I think the Leader cf the Opposition has in his questions indicated that this is what is necessary, that the present arrangement 471.

Jul y 23, 1979 Tape No. 192 NM- 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: is just not sufficient to protect the interests of Newfo1Jlldland and ensure that we ha.ve a rail mode system in this Province ten years from now, that something more has to be done and the government will do that now over the next rew weeks and months, through the Railway Committee which we have established which will get from CN as much info.cnation as it can and then we will go outs ,ide. we ar!! Z1QW _in the process of tal.king to a number of railway consultants in Canada who c;:an give us some outside information and who knows CN ~retty well. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): Leader of the Opposition. MR. JN{IESON: A final supplementary, the hon. I apologize for taking so mueh time but I think the subject is suf£iciently important that we get the ground work lai.d now so that we understand exactly what it is we are talking about here. The hon. the Premier has spoken about, in a sense,creating a Newfo~land GOvernment concept of the rail mode and its continuation in this Province. We on this side, certainly I and the member for l:.a.Poile (Mr. Neary) .in particular, and all of our colleagues share that view. so that makes sense 472

July 23, 1979 Tape 193 PK- 1 Mr. Jamieson: to do it. What concerns me is this question, which the hon. the Premier announced last week, the input it will have into the Advisory Committee, and also on top of that the relationship between those groups. and what I understand to be another organization which is set up which involves employees of the railway with regard to redundancies, layoffs, things of that kind?

If I may be permitted to elaborate just slightly more, as I understand it this report which now has been confirmed with regard to close-downs and layoffs is inconsistent with what was undertaken, that is, that there would be no such thing happen until the Advisory Committee had an opportunity to look at it. Now the hon. the Premier adives that CN has not even gone ahead with the Advisory Committee. There are many elements there.

May I add one more and that is, is his Committee 1 or the group within government looking at this matter, also going to examine the future of the rail mode in relation to various harbour developments being proposed around the Island? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the answer to all the many points just raised by the Leader of the Opposition - and may I say I thank him for his questions.

I do not think he needs to apologize to this House for the questions he is asking on this very important matter, because I am prepared to stay here all night, if necessary, or for months to just to discuss CN because it is a very important thing for the future of this Province. So therefore I am very happy to respond as fully as I can on this very important question.

What we are going to try to do through this committee and through establishing some kind of a policy as it relates to the railway is to develop also the mechanisms that we got and put in place for information flow, so that this Internal Committee is one which will advise the Cabinet and myself on how we should proceed and we will develop a policy based upon the research that they do over the next number of weeks, not only as it relates to 473

Jul~- 23, 1979 Tape 193 PK - 2 Premier Peckford CN down the road, down the rail, but also b,ow our communication syste)JI between CN and the federal government should be established. Should they be different than the Advisory Boards for example? So the whole thing is up for review becau.se I am not satisfied tbat the Advisory Board is sufficient enough communications chaimel with CN. Mean- while1Mr.

Messenger has assured me that he will be w:illing to sit down any day in the next several weeks as we start to ask questions and we get the kind of information we want, and hopefully if we can get a consultant onstream in the next week or two tbat that consultant can also get all the information necessary to develop that kind of a policy. But the fact of the matter is we are not satisfied with the communication system now 7 that even when the Advisory Board is set up it is not sufficient, and also I can assure the hon.

Leader of the Opposition that we are interested in looking at harbour develops around the Province, container services and so on that can be put in place to make the rail system far more efficient and to use the freight service far more than it is right now is one way to do it. 474

July 23,1979 Tape No. 194 AH-1 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for housing. I am sure since the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) delivered his Budget in the House that every member has been swamped with telephone calls about the special assistance for those purchasing houses for the first time.

I wonder if the minister can unravel the doubts that have been created in people's minds, the questions that have arisen in the last couple of days in connection with this $1,500 grant for those purchasing or building houses for the first time1 Could the minister straighten us out on the criteria that is going to be used in allocating this $1,500 grant? MR. SPEAKER: Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. N.WINDSOR: Hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the opportunity, in fact,of telling the hon. members of the House! sane of the details of the programme.

It is designed as was indicated to stimulate housing starts and to aid persons to get into a first-time home. So people who have not previously owned a home would be eligible. The salary requirements or salary restrictions on it would be basically for a family unit with a total income of less than $20,000 per annum. Persons making $10,000 per annum or less would get the total grant for $1,500; persons making abcve .that basically would decrease by $100 for every $1,000 of income above $10,000. So at $20,000 the amount of grant for which you would be eligible would be $500.

It is a flexible progamme in that it can be paid in one of two methods at the discretion of the applicant. They can take it as a lUDp sum payment up front to aid them with the down payment on their home1 or they can take payments spread over two years on monthly payment; that is i·f the person is eligible for $1,000 or more. If a person is eligible for $1,000 or less,we say that it should go in a lump sum 475

.July 23,1979 Tape No. 194 AH-2 MR. WINDSOR: payment because the administrative costs would be too great dealing with the smaller amount. But if a person is eligible for $1,000 to $l,S00 1 they can take the option of taking it on a monthly payment and that monthly payment would be decreased every six months. So tht it is a do~ard sort of sliding sc:ale to assist people with mortgage p ayments for the fir.st two years that t.hey are in their home and to ease them into the burden of having to pay their mortgage payments in total themselves thereafter. Speaker? MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) member for LaPoile.

MR· NEARY: Any other questions , Mr. A ,supplementarY. A supplementary. The hen. Mr. Speaker, :fust to make sure that we understand the hon. gentlelnan correctly, is the hon. gentleman now saying that the $1,500 will be given to applicants who are building a home for the first time, who are Purchasing a home for the first time whether it be an old hol:ne? This is the question , Mr. Speaker. This is not the same as the 476

July 23, 1979 Tape 195 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: programme was previously. Those who qualified before under the old programme were purchasing a home for the first time, but rrry understanding of this programme is that you have to be building a home in order to qualify for the $1 ,sao. Is that the distinction between this programme and the programme that was in effect previously? MR. SPEAKER: (SiiiU!IS) Affairs and Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR: The hon. the Minister of Municipal No , Mr. Speaker.

The purpose of the programme is to stimulate housing starts and to create jobs in the housing sector, and it therefore applies to new homes,whether a person is building it himself or buying it from a contractor, but the home must not have been occupied and it is a home that the construction should start after August 1st. That is the intent of the programme. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: The hon. gentleman then has confirmed the doubts in people's minds that this $1,500 is not for young couples who are buying or building a home for the first time, it is only for those who are building a home, a new home. MR. N. WINDSOR: Or buying. MR. NEARY: Yes, or buying from a contractor, but not buying a home that was previously occupied. Well, that is the difference in this programme and the old programme. MR. N. WINDSOR: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: difference. No, no. Oh, there is a difference, yes, (Inaudible) make a MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman another question, Sir. When the hon. gentleman refers to $20,000 income, 477

July 23, 1979 Tape 195 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: is he talking about $20,000 income or a salary of $20,000 or wages up to $20,000? Could the hon. gentleman ciariry dla'C. sicu.ation, cil.t= ~2G,JUC .i.hcutue MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is a formula that basically it accounts for the salary, of course, of the husband, the salary of a spouse less :;1900 so that a wife could make up the S900 and that would not be counted income. Family allowance payments and this sort of thing are not counted as income for the purpose of this.

It is basically the same criteria as used for other federal/provincial programmes. MR. F. WHI'm: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Lewisporte. MR. F • WHITE: I am not quite clear from what the minister has said, Mr. Speaker, on .when people who are building or buying new homes become eligible for this programme. The minister said after the lst of August Does this mean that somebody who started a house 1 say 1 today or yesterday will not be eligible for this programme? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. N. WINDSOR: No, Mr. Speaker, it does not mean that.

The start of the programme is August lst, as I said; however, we have had a number of calls from people who have started, they may have a basement dug or even a basement poured to try to start a home on their own, to do a little work as money became available to them. So what we have said and we have done - obviously we cannot make it retroactive so anybody who is three-quarters through a home it would apply to them.

The purpose of the programme is to stimulate housing, not to allow a subsidy, although it would be desirable to somebody who was already started a home and obviously has found some means, as difficult as it may have been, but some means to start their home on their own. But what we have said to be as flexible as possible is that it should not have proceeded past the first floor stage by August 1st. In other words, they can have their basement dug out, they can have their basement poured and their first floor on, the joists on and the floor 478

July 23, 1979 Tape 195 EC - 3 MR. N. WL'lDSOR: flpored over. We have to p.ick a cut-off point somewhere and this is the one that we have found seems you are not putting a basement i _n, sc you cannot say, 'You should not have Started.' So sane people may have a basement in and if we said, 'You should not have anything done,' they would not be eligible,

whereas somebody who is not putting a basement in would be eligible. MR. J~ESON• MR. SPEAKER• (Simms) of the Opposition. MR. JAMJ;ESON: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the Leader Mr. Speaker, I welcome this opportunity to ask the I:Jon. med>er a question which relates to the RRAP proqramme as well as to this one. I fear, on knowing the problems of identifying litho is eligible and 479

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 196 SD - 1 MR. D. JAMIESON: who is !!Ot 1 +:hat you are gP.t+:ing or the House is getting or the government is getting into an enormous amount of judgemental work here which is going to, I suspect, create many, many problems-whether you have a basement UDder the house or whether ycu do oot, etc. and so on.

Can I ask the bon. minister if there is some way that the kinds of representations which we are getting ,and I suspect all members are getting 1with regards to the application of RRAP can also be refined and clarified and made tidier for that programme as well as for this one regardless of the merits of the programme or not? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) and Housinq. MR. N. WINDSOR: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs Mr. Speaker, I point out that the RRAP programme is basically a federal programme which is being administered by the Housing Corporation on behalf of the Federal Government.

But the guidelines are verY similar;there may be some areas where clarification is needed. Certainly, if the hon. gentleman would like to make those available to me or any complaints that he has had I certainly will look into them and see what we can do to clarify them 1 but up to this point ~ time it is operating fairly well. We do not anticipate any major problem with this one.

I might, while I am on my feet, point out, and as I anticipate there may be questions coming in a moment, what about somebody who is living in a very substandard house at the moment, the bouse that is really not fit to live in, is he considered as owing a ho- and, therefore, not be eligible? The answer to that is no, that person will be eliqible.Xf that home is in such a state of repair that it will be demolished when a person moves into a new home 1 they will oot be disqualified because they are livinq in that type of accommodations. MR. R. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Supplementazy, Mr. Speake:.

SupplementarY, one final supplementary; then the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. 480

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 196 SD - 2 MR. R. SDIMONS: This may well become lalgwn as the can of ~rms programme. Mr. Speaker, the minister in answerinq the initial question lllade some reference to .. r thouqht he did and perhaps you can correct me - to an amount Ullder $1,000 0 would he just clarify thAt point for the House, perhaps? MR. SPEAKER: (Siaas) 'l'he hon. Minister of Municipal. Affairs and Housinq. MR. N. WINDSOR: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the programme, as r thought,was quite clear on it. rt starts off with a person makinq $10,000 or less is eligible for the full amount of $1,500, a person makinq more than that actually it decreases by $100 for ea.cb $1,000 of income above $10,000.~ when YllU qet to $20,000 the lower limit is $50.0 at $.20,000.6lld r said at $1,000 level we are sayinq that $1,000 or less should be paid in a lUIIIP sum, anything over $1,000 could be spread over a two yea.r period. luld, in fact, by 481

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 197 DW - 1 MR. N. WINDSOR : spreading it over a two year period 1 a person who was eligible for the full amount of $1,500 would in effect actually get $1,800 as a subsidy because ~nere is a llt~le extra in there as an incentive for people to spread out the payment over two years. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hen. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. W.

Carter), Sir, and it arises out of the fact that a number of people are expressing some deep concern about the fisheries symposium which I believe is being sponsored by the Federal Government and which I believe further is going to be held in late August or sometime in September to deal with the quotas on the-Hamiltcn Banks.

Now what I would like to ask the minister is whether there is any truth to the concern expressed by a number of people that the purpose of the symposium really is to increase the quota,_possibly double the quota on the Hamilton Banks a ~ a trade-off for the clasing of the fisheries on the Grand Banks; increase the quotas on the Hamilton Banks because of the fact that they are closing off the fisheries on the Grand Banks. And would ·the minister also indicate whether there is any truth to that deep concern and whether the minister agrees with that particular objective or intention? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER : Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of there being any truth to that statement and furthermore if that is the intent of the seminar, well 1 then certainly the Province would object to any such move on the part of Ottawa or indeed any other party, company or government.

We view the northern cod stoCks, certainly we view that we do have an historical right to these stocks and we certcinly would not condone cr be party to any attempt by anyone to do anything that ~uld lessen their chances of replenishing and anything that would have the effect of affecting the inshore fishery as in fact.it woui4 if these stocks are .. 482

July 23, 1979 MR. W. CARTER: past . M..~ . F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Trinity - Bay ~e Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Tape NO. 197 DW - 2 over-exploited as they we.re in the A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary , the non. member for Mr. Speaker, I am extremely happy to hear what the minister has to say.

Well, could the minister indi.cate therefore what exactly is the purpose - I ~d assume that being the Provincial Minister of Fisheries he is in day-by-day conSUltation with !:lis counterpart in Ottawa that he would know the objective of the particular sytnposiwn <U\d woUld he further give some indication to the House that he woUld undertake to find out whether in fact one of the purposes of this symposium is to increase the quotas off the Grand Banks?

Both the minister and myself are in total agreement that they shoUld not be increased but that cloes not mean that it is not the p!.lrpeSe of this particular symposium to set up as an objective to increase the quotas on the Hamilton Banks. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. minister. MR. W. CAIITER: I have enough· faith in my good friend and my fellow Newfoundlander, Jim McGrath, who is now the Federal Minister - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear; hear~ MR. W. CAR1'ER: - that he is not going to do anything ~or or consent to anything

. ' ' July 23, 1979 Tape No. 198 NM - 1 MR. W. CARTER: or be party to anything that will jeopardize the Northern cod stocks and that any increase in the quotas will be consistent with proper scientific and biological data. Certainly I do not think he would even give a second thought to doubling the quota or to trading off part of our Northern cod stocks in return for a closure of the Grand Banks and in fact if that is the intent of the seminar 1 well 1 then certainly we will oppose it.But I have enough faith in my friend to know that he will not do that. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary. The hen. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. .MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, if the hen. member has such great faith in his counterpart in Ottawa, 11r. James McGrath, I am wondering why and whether the minister agrees to the timing of this particular symposium.

The symposium,I understand, and the minister nodded in agreeement, that the symposium will be held sometime late in August or in early September ~'d as I understand it there is quite a considerable amount of fishing activity during that part of the year and obviously a lot of fishermen will not be able to be represented at that particular symposium if indeed that symposium is being held in late August or early September. Also whether he has made any representation to the minister's faithful partner in Ottawa with respect to changing the timing of this particular symposium? .MR. SPEAKER: The hen.

Minister of Fisheries • .MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that these questions would more appropriately be and should be directed to the minister in Ottawa. But certainly the right to establish the seminar and to set a date is that of the federal minister. Fishermen's interests, I presume,will be represented by their union, I understand the union will be present, but again as to the date of the seminar and in fact the purpose and the intent of it is something that I think we had better ask the minister in Ottawa. 484

July 23, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): hon. member for Bonavista Nort~. MR. F. ROWE : Tape No. 198 Nt-1 - 2 One final supplementary then the Mr. Speaker, you know I can have fun with the Minister of Fisheries now that we have a PC GQvernment in Ottawa - ~IR . LUSH: Quite a change, is it not? MR. F. ROWE: - and I will not be doing so. I am going to continue to ask questions because of a deep concern asked ~y a number of people in this Province concerning the symposium.

I simply ask the minister whether he would make some representation and have some consultation with his counterpart in Ottawa with a view to getting the timing - I-1R. LOSH: MR. F. ROWE: of this particular symposium. A better time. - a better time, and changing the time I do not want to hear any smart cracks from the minister indicating that the questions are better being: addressed to Ottawa and this kind of a thing. I asked the hon. minist .er a question and he consults with his counterpart in ottawa 1 you have a nice flow of information back and forth; this cozy rela .tionship now exists.

I cannot see why I should go over the head of the hen. minister and I just ask the question once again; will the minister, in all sincerity, make some representation to his counterpart in Ottawa with a view to changing the timing of this particular symposium? 485

\ " July 23, 1979 Tape 199 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, on the basis of information I have concerning the seminar 1 I have no objection to the date or to the place where it is being held. I would strongly urge the hon. member, if people are objecting to the location of the meeting and the time 1 that I think the people concerned, Mr.

Speaker, know very well that this is a prerogative of the federal minister, and if they have any objections to the date or the place of the meeting that they should contact the federal minister, and I would give the hon. member the same advice. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: A question to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. w. Carter) representing one of the districts that is of concern on the Northeast Coast: Would the minister very specifically not say whether or not he agrees that the timing of this to get the average fishermen out of his boat is a very bad time?

That is a personal question to the Minister of Fisheries who is a knowledgeable person, that we are not talking about union representation. The question is, is this not,in the minister's opinion, is this not very bad timing to hold a conference to get fishermen from their boats to attend should an important conference? Very specific. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Sir, I think the question is basically the same as that asked by the other hon. member, and I think my answer will have to be the same. MR. WHITE: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Shame. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. Well, Mr. Speaker, we are not getting very far with the han. minister. I wonder if the hon. gentleman could tell us if there has been any prior consultation about this symposium that is going to be held in Corner Brook? - a good fishing community! -and if there has been prior consultation, will the hon. 486

July 23, 1979 Tape 199 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: gentleman tell the House if the provinces, including this Province,will be allowed to have any input in the symposium? And has the hen. gentleman suggested any item for the agenda of that symposium on behalf of the fishermen in this Province who have so many problems? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hen. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Yes, there has been prior consultation. I should point out by the way to hon. members opposite, I did not want to say this, but I think I should point out to them that the seminar was announced and was arranged by the former minister, Mr.

LeBlanc 1 while he was Minister of Fisheries. My good friend and former colleague, Jim McGrath, is just now carrying out, following through on plans that were made by his predecessor in ottawa. MR. NEARY: MR. W. CARTER: What~items are you putting on the agenda? Items on the agenda, Mr. Speaker? We will be putting items on the agenda. into the seminar. we will want to be having some input MR. NEARY: What are the items? MR. W. CARTER: My deputy minister will be invited. As to what items,I cannot disclose that at this present time, but I will be glad - MR. NEARY: Is it top secret or what? MR. w.

CARTER: - at a later date. MR. MORGAN: No more so than {inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, may I in a supplementary return to the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. Windsor)? This is a matter for clarification. In his explanation, and my colleague I believe from Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) pointed out the same thing, there was a reference to an amount of $500 at the top end of the scale. In the highlights of the Budget, at the beginning, 487

July 23, 1979 Tape 199 PK - 3 Mr. Jamieson: it refers to grants ranging from $1,000 to $1,500 dependent on income etc. Presumably 488 .·

July 23,1979 MR. JAMIESON: Tape No. 200 AH-1 we have now had a departure from what the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) announced in the Budget Speech. '1F.. NE.l\RY : MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. WINDSOR: A change of heart . The hon. minister . A slight departure, I suppose, if you want to caJl it that, Mr. Speaker. I would also point out - _AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SFEJI.KER: MR. WINDSOR: Oh, oh! Order, order! If the gentleman does not want the answer - as I pointed out a moment ago

whereas the boLtom end of the scale is really $500 1 the upper end of the scale is ala~ $1,800 which was not in the Budget Speech. We said the upper end of the scale was $1,500: But a person who is eligible for the maximum of $1,500 and who takes that over a two year period in fact receives $1,800. So there is flexibility. I mean, how many details can you put in a Budget Speech? Now in giving you the details you can see exactly where it is. MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired.

I am sure all members would like to join me in welcoming to the gallery a delegation from the local improvement district of Labrador City 1 incladed in which is the former MHA for Labrador South, Mr. Mike Martin. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: And as well on your behalf I would like to issue a warm welcome ~o former ministers and former MBAs. The former member for Harbour Main-Bell Island , Mr. William Doody 1 and the former member for st. John's Centeit, Mr. Ank Murphy, are in the gallery with us today. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 489

July 2 3, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. TULK: Tape No. 200 AH-2 PRESENTING PETITIONS The hen. member for Fogo. Mr . Speaker, I rise to present a petition from 194 residents of Stag Harbour and Little Seldcm. The prayer of the petition is that the road from Seldcm to Stag Harbour be paved during the 1979 construction season. Mr. Speaker, there are several reasons, I believe, why both sides of this hon. House should support the petition. First of all 1 the prayer of the petition is not for pavin'] and upgradinq.

This road from Staq Harbour to Seldom was upgraded in 1972;however the paving 1 the people of Stagg Harbour ~int out to us, must be done now otherwise re­ construction will soon have to be done aqain at double expense.over the past few years, Mr. Speaker, as everybody in Newfoundland and indeed in Canada knows,the prosperity of Foqo Island has increased constantly. The result is a large increase in the amount of vehicles using Fogo Island roads and as a result the dust problem is unbearable.

Furthermore, the people of Si:ag Harbour and Little Seldom point out to us that the equipment to do such a job is now on the Island. As I am sure most people will recognize 1 mcving equipment by ferry to Fogo Island is very expensive. I therefore ask, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Transportation and Communications (~J r.Brettl will support the prayer of this petition and that it be laid on the Table of the House and referred to the department to which it is related. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR.WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by th~ member for Fog~ (Mr.Tulk).

Knowing the area quite well,I am sure the people in the Stagg Harbour area would like to have their road paved particularly since, as the member has pointed out, the road is already upgraded. I think, Mr. Speaker, what we have in the situation as outlined by the hon. member, is where a town is progressing faster economically than it is socially, and this is a very significant point. This government- 490

July 23,1979 Tape No. 200 AH-3 MR. WHITE: not only this government but the previous government,has made the point that they wanted to and I think that is the key point with respect to this and why I support the petition. Mr. Speaker, the point that equipment is already on Fogo Island and must be moved bacl< and forth if another paving programme is to be started there is also a very valid point. 491.

July 23, 1979 Tape 201 EC - 1 MR. F. WHITE: You know, all of us in all our districts, we Dlake the point that since the equipment is in the area the roads should be paved now. Well, that is not a very good excuse for most ot us since the equipment could be on the mainland and moved around. But on an island it is a different situation and I think it is something the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) who is from Fogo Island, himself, should give serious consideration to. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: (Si..mms) The han. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.

BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I have had the privilege to rise in support of petitions far reconstruction and paving of roads an Fogo Island an two or three occasions when Capt. Winsor was the member for Fogo District. As indicated by the han. the member far Lewisporte (Mr. F. White) I was born on Fogo Island and therefore I feel a little bit different, I suppose, or feel rather close to the area. In supporting the petition, I would like to point out to the House ,that the government is spending approximately $1.2 million in a paving programme on the island this year. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR.

BRETT: That is a fair chunk of IIDney, Mr. Speaker, and I want to assure the Hause and the han. the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) that not only will the remaining roads in Fogo be paved, but in due course other roads on the island will be paved. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Placentia. MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of ninety-three residents of the Placentia - Long Ha~our area, and the petition reads: "The undersigned wish to vigourously protest the provincial government's intention to prohibit the use of all-terrain vehicles in this Province of Newfoundland.

While some people enjoy flying over the Island to get to its lakes and streams for fishing or to get further inland for the purpose of hunting or ather recreational purposes, the thought of depriving Newfoundlanders of this privilege at this point in time is 492

July 23, 1979 Tape 201 EC - 2 MR. PATTERSON: certainly a demoralizing one to say the least. If this decision were to come about we could only look at it as

an act of discrimination against Newfoundlanders who love this type of outdoor life as a means of recreation." I would ask that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Order 1, the Address in Reply. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order 1, the Address in Reply. The hen. the member for LaPoile. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEAllY: Mr. Speaker, I notice the hen. the tnember for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) is not in his seat, Sir. I think he had three or four minutes to go in his speech, in which he said very little, by the way.

There was really nothing in his remarks to answer, so I am told by my colleagues. I was not in the House when the hen. gentleman spoke, so I have to take my colleagues' word for it , that the hen. gentleman really said nothing in support of the government programmes that needs to be answered. Now, Mr. Speaker, hen. gentlemen realize I that we are doing two speeches here now practically at the same time. Although we have not started the Budget Speech, the Budget has been brought down and we are now into the throes of speaking in the Throne Speech Debate, the Address i.n Reply.

I am going to concentrate most of my remarks, Mr. Speaker, on my own district of LaPoile, but I do have a few preliminary opening remarks that I want to make in connection with the administration generally and the Throne Speech generally.

And I want to S<rf, Sir, that my first impression of this government during the election campaign just ended on June 18th and the Throne Speech that was read in this !iouse, that it would appear, Sir, to anybody who has any political sense at all that the new Premier and the government are trying to leave the impression with the people of this Province that they are a new administration, that we have a new Premier and that everything about the past has to be forgotten. 493

July 23, 1979 Tape 201 EC- 3 MR. NEJU!Y: And the bon. the Premier especially is going out of his way to make some distance between him and the most corrupt admi.Ilistration that we have ever had in NewfoWldland over its 400 year history. 'Ihe bon. gentleman seeji!S to want to create quite a bit of mileage, quite a bit of_ .distance between him and the former Premier of this; Province, Mr. Frank Moores and his administration. 'l'lle bon. gent.1eman is trying to leave the impression that this is a born-~ain governD~ent, that the ministers who are now sitting on the government benches ~d the hon.

Premier being one of these ministers 'lolbo was a senior minister - AN liON. MEMBER: MR.~: MR. ROBERrS: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) • I wonder if the hon. gentleman - I am sorry. I apologize. I cannot listen and talk at the same time. I have the same problem Mr. Smallwood used to have in the House, Mr. Speaker, I cannot speak and 494

t!. July 23, 1979 Tape No. 202 so - l MR. S. NEARY : listen to a conversation at the same time. I have been able to master everything else in the House except that. So the hen. gentleman is trying to leave the impression that this is a bern-again government, that they have been saved, they have all been saved. Ministers who were in the former administration and the hen. the Premier was a senior minister in the Moores' administration, they want to forget everything they did.

They want to start off with a clean slate and even though they lived in sin for seven years they have all been saved, they are bern again and we have to forget all about the past. Well now, Mr.

Speaker, I say that the hen. gentleman may try to leave the impression that they are a bern­ again government but unless the hen. gentleman is prepared to deal with some of the outstanding items, some of the unfinished business of the previous administration, the Moores • administration, unless the hen. gentleman is prepared to come to grips with some of the outstanding business, the items that were left outstanding from the last session of the House and from the last government,then the hen. gentleman is not going to be able to start off with a clean slate.

And the hen. gentleman can try all he wants to ~reate distance between him and Mr. Moores but it will not work unless the hen. gentleman is prepared to come to grips, to face up to some of the problems that ~ere =eated by the Moores • administration that •rill haunt the hen. gentleman who now occuppies that chair unless the hen. gentleman is prepared to do something about it. And one of the items I refer to, Mr. Speaker, . is the scandal in connection with Labrador Linerboard.

Unless the hen. gentleman is prepared to appoint a full.fledged inquiry to look into the various and sundry scandals in connection with Labrador Linerboard 1 then the hen. gentleman can not start off with a clean s~ate. And evidence has been presented in this House that triggered a RCMP investigation that is still continuing, still going on in 495

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 202 SD - 2 MR. S • NEARY: connection with Labrador Linerboard but they are only dealing with one case and that is the case of Sterling International and Egret where money was put in a secret account is Bermuda, a secret commission was paid to a dummy company in Bezmuda by Sterling International who bought a shipment Linerboard from Stephenville and that case is under active investigation by the RCMP commercial and crime section.

And I understand, as of today, that one of the RCMP gentlemen is leaving today, this very day, to go to San Francisco to interrogate one of the people who were .:..o.volved, the gentleman, as a matter of fact, who handled the shi~;ment.

And so , the hon. gentleman may think that the Labrador Linerboard scandal and mismanagement is going to evaporate and disappear but I can tell the hon. gentleman that it is not and evidence is going to keep unfolding in connection with Labrador Linerboard that will make the hon. gentleman, as it did his predecessor,, regret that he did not appoint a Royal Committee of Inquiry under the Public Inq\Uries Act to look into the affairs of Labrador Linerboard from the time the government took it over up to the time that the government closed it down.

I am not referring to the present company that is out there although I have my own views on that, too. It is rather a coincidence, Mr. Speaker, it is too much of a coincidence, as a matter of fact, that the EPA takeover that was announced in this House by the hon. gentleman's predecessor, the Abitibi give-away of the Labrador Linerboard Mill and the renting of office space down here in Atlantic Place from the former owner of EPA, it is too much of a coincidence, Sir, that these three events took place at the same time, in the same month on practiculy the same day. And I will have more to say about that later.

And if I were the hon. gentleman I would be - I would feel very uncomfortable in that seat, very uncomfortable in the seat that he occuppies now that was occuppied by his predecessor, Mr. Moores. I would feel 496

July 23, 1979 Tape No . 202 so - 3 MR. s. NEARY: ·.;er~ uncomfortable if I were that hon. gentl .f!lllan unless I took a good hard look at these decisions that were lllilde in cabinet while the bon. gentleman was a senior minister, one of Mr. Moores' senior ministers. There ma.y be nothing, maybe it is my dirty mind, Sir, maybe I am too suspicio ~s of all these three great events t:alcing place. Around November 16, three gTeat events took place ill this Province . November of 1978 the EPA talteover was aU arranged and contrary to what we were told by the hon. gentl.eman who rushed into this House and 497

July 23, 1979 Tape 203 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: read out a communique, read out a public statement saying- well, leaving the impression that it was all done through buying of stock. It was a private transaction~ a private transaction done either in the board rooms in this Province or in Toronto. A private transaction~ There was some stock fo·r two or three weeks before the EPA takeover, there was a lot of stock, a lot of activity on the stock market, but the actual takeover was a private transaction, Mr.

Speaker, that had to be approved by this government because EPA is into this government for $6 millionp At least that is what we were told last year in The Lean and Guarantee Act. And this government had to approve the takeover. And who was sitting in the Chair? Mr. F. D. Moores. And who was negotiating for the renting of office space in that white elephant building downtown? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: And who was negotiating the Abitibi takeover? As I say, Mr. Speaker, there may not be a thing in this world to it. There·, may not be a thing to it, but it is too much of a coincidence.

And then I heard the hon. gentleman after he retired saying he does not know what he is going to do, The poor fellow does not know what he is going to do. They might form a company, a local company called Torngat Investments. They might. The han. gentleman forgot to tell us about the company that he formed while he was Premier of this Province, the holding company incorporated, federally, a company that is registered in Ottawa by the hen. gentleman, incorporated on January 25, 1979 while he was still Premier of this Province,which is being supported by contributions Irom EPA.

If I were the hen. gentleman I would not yet say , we are born again, tntil all of the mess, all of the scandals are cleaned up. The other day I put a question on the Order Paper. I asked about the number of scandals in this Province that are still outstanding. One of the ones I mentioned was the Labrador Linerboard one. That will not rest~ I have four years or five years ahead of me, 498

July 23, 1979 Tape 203 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: Sir, and I will find out eventually, and the han. gentleman may as well face the facts right now- that I have no intention of giving up on Labrador Linerboard, that I am st~Ll collecting data and information and invoices and facts on Labrador Linerboard when the government operated it, when Mr. Crosbie was President of the Board of Directors. And I am still going to continue to do it and the hen. gentleman may as well realize that and now appoint a commission of enquiry. What· is the han. gentleman afraid of? What is the administration afraid of?

What are they worried about? They have nothing to hide, they tell us~ they are born again, although some of them were sitting in the Cabinet when these decisions were made, when the decision was made to set up that marketing company down in Massachusetts~And the records of that company have never been audited by this government, by the Auditor General, by Peat, Marwick or nobody else because nobody in Canada or in Newfoundland has access to the records of the company that marketed the linerboard, registered, incorporated down in Nova Scotia. And God only knows what they did. Mr.

Crosbie was the man who engineered that, who cancelled the original contract to market· Labrador linerboard. And the hen. gentleman can sit there all he likes and tell us that this is a new government. You are talking about $30 million or $40 million or $50 million of taxpayers' money and I do not care whether you are old or new, but that is a lot of do ra me7 that is a lot of loot, Mr. Speaker, that has to be accounted for in this House. 499

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 204 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: And the han. gentleman may as well face up to it~ there has to be an enquiry into the operations of Labrador Linerboard when it was operated by the government. That is no reflection on Abitibi or the company that is operating it now and trying to get it back into operation, none at all. The auditors tell us, Peat, Marwick tell us,that they could not audit the records of Labrador Linerboard because they did not have sufficient information. Every year, Mr.

Speaker, every year, year in and year out, Peat, Marwick 1 who are world renowned, who are amongst the top in their field, top accounting firm in the world, told this government, "Look, we cannot audit the accounts of Labrador Linerboard.

Sure, we can try to carry them out in line with general practices and procedures but we cannot audit the accounts because you will not give us the information." And every year this government ignored it and every year refused to give us information here in the House on how that $308 million of taxpayers' money was spent and what happened to the revenue on the marketing of linerboard? What happened to it? And how much they got for linerboard. What their total production was. How much they got for it. Did they get the market price? Why did they, for instance, Mr.

Speaker, why did they choose to ignore­ when the previous Minister of Finance took over, why did they kick out Mr. Kraft, kick him out and get a company in Hamburg, Germany to market the linerboard? And that I might say, Mr. Speaker, that I am also in communication with now to find out why that company is withholding $2.5 million to $3 million belonging to the taxpayers of this Province. Why the government has not made any attempt to recover - Mr. Speaker, the hon. President of the Council seems to be terribly interested in what I am saying .

The hon. gentleman probably never heard of Schofield in Hamburg, Germany, a company that was commissioned by Labrador Linerboard to sell Labrador linerboard in Europe. And this company, Mr. Speaker, had an agreement with Labrador Linerboard and in that agreement in case of dispute between the government, 500

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 204 'lR. NEARY: between Labrador Linerboard and the company was a clause that it would go to arbitration, any dispute would go to arbitration. Well, Mr. Speaker, that company that I do not have time to deal with at any great length now,which I will deal ~ith later, that company did market Labrador Linerboard and as I understand it,while the government was telling us in this House that they could not find a market for Labrador Linerboard they had an agreement with this company NM - 2 to sell the total production of the mill, Schofield in Hamburg, Germany.

And when they shut down the mill Schofield said, "Well you broke your contract. You broke your contract and now we have to go to arbitration." This government, as I understand it, barely lifted a finger. They said to Schofield, "Keep the $2.5 million to $3 million that you got for the linerboard you sold and we will forget the whole thing." What a sloppy way to do business, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the taxpayers of this Province. "Keep the $2.5 million and we will forget the whole thing." Because if we enter into a law suit you might get more. Well,it is not over yet, Sir. I am told by Messrs.

Schofield of Hamburg. The case is not closed yet. Another example of mismanagement on the part of the former administration and ministers in that government. And the hon. gentleman was there sitting around the table when that agreement was made with Messrs. Schofield in Hamburg in Germany. And so, Mr . Speaker, the hon. gentleman may feel that the people are going to be conned into thinking that the government is born again. They may be born again but they have to deal with the unfinished business, the outstanding items.

They also have to deal, Sir, with the,as I say,the Egret situation, they have to deal with the situation in Stephenville where three businessmen have already been charged with fraud, with defrauding the Linerboard mill. And we are told by the previous Minister of Justice that other 501.

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 204 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: charges are pending although we have not heard of the other charges yet. They are going to have to deal with the Health Sciences Complex scandal anc the scandal in connection with the Carbonear Hospital. That is still outstanding. They are going to have to deal with wrongdoing in connection with purchases 502

July 23, 1979 Tape 205 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: made by the St. John's Housing Authority, the NewfoWldland and Labrador Housing Authority both in St. John • s and down in Happy Valley in Goose Bay, Lacrador. They are going to have to deal with the Mahoney Royal Commission in this House when it is presented this Fall, and they are going to have to deal with all kinds of other items of unfinished business, Sir. And what I am saying, Mr.

Speaker, is before the hon. gentleman can stand before this House and testify and say, • I am saved; I have committed mortal sin for the last seven years and we are sorry that we did that and we are born again, and you have to forget all the millions of dollars that went down the tube, that went down the drain when I was sitting around that table with Mr.

Moores- you have to forget all that,' - well, maybe the hon. gentleman is smarter than I think he is, maybe he can con the Newfoundland people into forgetting all about these millions of dollars, but I will be here for the next four years to remind the hon. gentleman and I can tell the hen. gentleman right now that I am about - well, I will not say that I am about - but I am digging, and I hope if I dig hard enough that I can produce other invoices and other bits and pieces of evidence to this House to show that there was a gigantic, a colossal international scandal involved in the marketing of Newfoundland linerboard.

And if the hon. gentleman has nothing to hide, nothing to fear, why does he not set up a commission of inquiry? Why not? Is that not the fairest thing to do? Or send the Auditor General in, that is fair enough. You are talking about $308 million of taxpayers' money to complete the mill and operate it for five or six years. And you are also talking about millions piled upon millions of dollars collected by Labrador Linerboard for the sale of its products that we can get no accounting for, no accounting. And that word seems yet, Mr.

Speaker, to have not filtered through to the boys and ladies who sit up over my head. We have no accounting for the marketing of that product. we have a concrete case in front of us. What further proof do you want than the Stirling International case where the comptroller of that company gave instructions to deposit $55 into a dummy company, a secret commission)in a dummy company in Bermuda, $55 that International Forests' Mr. Bobby Kraft told us was a guarantee against shipping 1 which was a lot of malarkey, Mr. Speaker, because this shipment of linerboard was F.O.B.

Stephenville, I understand from the gentleman who sold it. 503

July 23, 1979 Tape 205 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: You said fifty-five dollars. MR. NEARY: Fifty-five dollars deposited into a secret account. MR. SIMMONS: Per ton? MR. NEARY: Per ton - $55 a ton - $110,000 of taxpayers' 110ney put in a dummy account in a company called Egret in Bermuda. And I know this sounds like old hat and I know the press will say, "Oh, Neary, had nothing new to add, no new information.' Well, what kind of new info:rmation do you want? If they were doing their job they would dig themselves and find out a little bit about this scandal. MR. MORGAN: The press are all gone. MR. NEARY: I do not care.

They are listening. Do not worry, they are listening. If they do not do their job, I will do mine in this House. I know there was a scandal of great magnitude involved in the marketing of this product and I intend to get to the bottom of it. And the hon. gentleman would be w~l advised to set up a commission of inquiry. Why would the hon. gentleman not do that? Why would he not do it? The hon. gentleman does not see fit to answer me. Why would the hon. gentleman not set up a commission of inquiry? What is wrong with that?

If there is no wrongdoing well and good, fine, we have settled the matter once and for all, but if there is wrongdoing that will be found out too. Mr. Speaker, with these new rules it is going to be a problem to get down to a half hour. I could go on for another hour on these scandals, but I am hoping the hon. gentleman got the message. The hon. gentleman will not have the gall to say to the people of this Province, 'We have new policies for the future,' and I appreciate and I understand that, Sir, 'We have a new flag, we have a new administration and we have a new 504

· · ~ July 23, 1979, Tape 206, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: 'Premier and we have all been, as they say, 'seve' , so let us forget the past. Forget it! forget that you were ripped off for literally millions piled upon millions of dollars.

Forget all that,because now we are born again.' The hon. gentleman, Sir, will not be born again until the hon. gentleman comes face to face and deals with these matters because the han. gentleman was a senior minister in that administration that mismanaged so badly the affairs of this Province, that had so many failures and that was so corrupt, the most corrupt, Sir, and I say that without fear of contradiction. Without any hesitation I would say, Mr. Speaker, it was the most corrupt administration, Sir, in the whole history of this Province. MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: And the same old Opposition.

The same old Opposition yes, Sir, and it will be the same as long as I am here. Mr. Speaker, I will not sit in this House as the hon. gentleman has done and see literally millions of taxpayers' dollars milked by the scavengers South of the border and maybe some people in this Province, I am not so sure about that. Secret commissions are against the criminal code, in case the han. gentleman does not know it. Anyway, Sir, I will be dealing with it again in due course. I want to switch now for a moment to my own district of LaPoile. Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, as I said the other day, I must be doing something right, I have six general elections under my belt and I will be here a long time after some of these gentlemen that are here now are gone. I want to express my appreciation, Sir, to the people of 505

71 I July 23, 1979, Tape 206, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: LaPoile for re-electing me down in that district for the second time. And I want to also, Mr. Speaker, apart from thanking my own constituents, thank the hen. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. w. Carter) for the favour he did me in Isle a-ux Mort during the election campaign. In 1975, in Isle aux Mort, I got nine votes. The hen. gentleman went down during the campaign and put on a big show, and a big demonstration and as a result, Sir, this time I got 109 votes in Isle aux Mort. I want to personally thank the hen. gentleman.

Now, I did not win Isle aux mort, Sir. I did not win it but I am working on it. I went from nine to 109, thanks to the hen. gentleman and the next time, Sir, I hope - only five minutes left? So, Mr. Speaker, I just want to, in that five minutes, thank the people. And I want to, if I can, just run over some of the problems in LaPoile district, in five minutes. But I believe I should have a little more time, Sir. I was watching the clock. I believe I should have close to ten minutes left, Mr. Speaker. Your Honour had better check. I was watching the clock myself when I started. MR.

SIMMONS: May we have a recount, please? MR. NEARY: The people of Channel - Port aux Basques are extremely disappointed that there is no provision in this fiscal year to start construction of a district hospital in Channel - Port aux Basques. The administration have already admitted that this is a top priority item and certainly, Mr. Speaker, if it is a top priority item 506

July 23, 1979, Tape 206, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: and I agree that the health of our people should come before anything else in this Province, I am surprised that they would, in the Budget Speech, emphasize art councils and make no reference at all to the fact that they are not going to build any hospitals. I would think that the construction of a hospital in Channel - Port aux Basques should come before sending the Norma and Gladys up to Montreal or Toronto on one of these binges or setting up a Newfoundland Arts Council, as much as I am interested in the arts.

I like the fiddle and I like the accordion and I like a little tap dancing and I am like the former Premier, I like a scuff, but, Sir, I believe the health of our people comes before everything else in this Province. I believe the people in Clarenville, according to what I saw in The Morning ~, and the people on the Burin Peninsula are equally as disappointed, if not more so, than the people in Channel - Port aux Basques and on the South­ west corner of the Province who were promised a hospital but obviously now, Sir, are not going to get it and they will have to wait for another year.

In the meantime, the area is growing, growing considerably, Sir. T.J. Hardy this year, hon. gentlemen may be interested, for the first time in the history of the Southwest coast is working three shifts in his fish plant, not two. He went from one in one season up to three shifts, working twenty-four hours a day around the clock processing fish in Port aux Basques. And Rose Blanche was never as prosperous as it is at the present time. But we still have that nagging problem in Isle aux Mort where Connors Brothers rowed in on 507

July 23, 1979, Tape 206, Pa~e 4 -- apb MR. NEARY: their white horse and were going to do all kinds of things . Although they have had a pretty good year, a better year than they have had previously, it is still not good enough . A lot of young people cannot find employment in Isle a.ux Mort. Then I want also , Mr. Speaker, while I am at it, to thank the hon . the Premier . I wrote the hon. gentleman immediately following the provincial general election because the hon. gentleman's candidate 508

y.;-:, July 23,1979 Tape No. 207 AH-1 MR. NEARY: had gone down to Burnt Island' where they demonstrated and shut off the water to the fish plant in Burnt Island. And the hon. gentleman sent a telegram down saying enae ~the won tne government, that $375,000 would be allocated to put drinking water in Burnt Islands. I wrote the hon. gentleman and reminded him of his commitment and the hon. gentleman wrote me back and told me tkat the commitment made on behalf of his candidate· and the government,in Burnt Island, would be kept. I am looking forward to tenders being called for that project. Also, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps one of the ministers, the Minister of Mines and EneEgy, (Mr. Barry) when he is speaking in this debate can tell me about the gold in Burnt Island. We hear quite a few rumours, Sir, but we have never been able to get anything concrete, anything definite about the gold at Burnt Island Pond. There is quite a bit of activity going on down there this year, Sir, and there has been quite a bit of activity for the past several years. A drilling company f~om Quebec has been in there for the last few years drilling away and this year I understand, Mr.

Speaker, they have helicopters bringing in brick and cement and sand. They are putting up a temporary building. I do not know what for but it certainly looks very good. And from the little information that I have been able to get on the side7 I am told, Sir, that it is the best gold strike on the North American continent in thirty years. I would like for somebody if they have the information · - perhaps the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) can tell us 7 if he speaks in this debate,just what is happening in connection with the discovery of gold in Burnt Island ~ond which is near Isle aux Mort~ by the way, it is not up in the Codroy Valley as we were told by the minister, I believe, before he went over to Dalhousie. When he was telling us about this gold strike he had a map, on television, and he was showing the gold strike as being up in the Codroy Valley. The strike is actually over in Burnt Island Pond near Isle aux Mort and it looks to be pretty good. I am most encouraged myself by what is going on there.

Gold and Silver - and I believe it is only a matter of time. I am hoping this year an announcement will be made that a mine will start 509

·· ~ July 23,1979 MR. NEARY: Tape No. 207 AH-2 in that area. All th~ greater need,by the way, for a hospital in that area. Wi~ all the activity that is going on in connection wit.'l the fishery, CN, the gulf service, the possibility of a gold mine opening up and all the other things that are happening,. then you need a hospital in the worst kind of a way. One of the most desperate needs in t.hat area right now is a hospital. Hon. ger-tleman should see what the staff have to work out off in Port Aux Basques at the present time. It is unbelievable. You have men and women,sometimes on the same ward. MR.

MOR:>AJ.\1: The same as Bona vista. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, Bonavista is like Buckingham Palace compared to Port Aux Basques. AN HON MEMBER: (Inaudible) is even worse. MR. NEARY: Oh, I beg your pardon, Sir. And, Mr. Speaker, - how am I fixed for time, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: (SiJnms) The hon. member has one minute remaining. MR. NEARY: One minute, Sir . Well 1 in that minute I would like to get in a plug for a good many communities in my district and I would like to get in a plug for Cape Ray where they need - my district by the way, Mr. Speaker, qoes fran Cape Ray to Grand Bruit.

The communities are isolated but Cape Ray needs drinkinq water in the worst kind of a way. And just to show you hew penny-wise and pound-foolisll this administration is, my hon. friend,when he was in Ottawa,arranged to qet a canada Works grant for Cape Ray, I believe, for $90,000 but they needed another $50,000, they needed another $50,000 of provincial money. They came to the Province to put in a water supply in Cape Ray and the Province said, no, and now, Mr. Speaker, the Province has to put up $150,000.

They could have got away with $50,000 but now they are qoinq to have to put up $150,000 because they refused to come to the aid of the 51.0

July 23,1979 Tape No. 207 AH-3 MR. NEARY: water committee in Cape Ray and ¢ve the!!! the difference that they needed to put in that water system in cape .Ray. There is. a desperate need ther ·e for drinking water. Well, Mr. Speaker, I will talk about the other C!'llllllUilities and about the other problems · pybe in s0111e other dt¢ate. But I do aqain, Sir, want to thank the people of LaPoile for re-electi:nq me. It was a hard fought campaign. I enjoyed it very much. I CO!IIIIIend the hen. qentleman for sendinq down the pride and joy of the Tozy Party. I did not take qreat pride in defeating the gentlE!I!Wl.

I thought he was a Vezy fine gentleman. He t"cuq-ht a hard campaign, He. made a few IDistakes. He must learn that you do not attack a candidate 511.

July 23 , 1979 Tape No. 208 ow- 1 MR. S. NEARY: personally, L~at is one thing he has to learn,when you are fighting a campaign~ I had to turn the other cheek on a couple of occasionS-But he did put up a good batt!e and 1 hope that he will not be discour99ed because I think we need more pepple like him in public life in this Province. I was glad to be able to take him out of the play because my hon. friend the Minister of Tourism (Mr. Power) reminded me before the election was called that I was afraid to go back to LaPoile because o~ Mr.

Martin who he thought was the saviour of the Southwest corner of the Province. But, anyway, I did manage to ''get back i."l. the House again 11!'-d as long as I am here and as long as I have an ounce of breath and the energy 7 I am going to keep harping on these things that I mentioned to the hon. gentleman. And he may as well get it through his head now,that there is no way that that Labrador Linerboard scandal is going to be swept under the carpet.

I hope the hon. gentleman will take my advice and set up a commission of Inquiry to look into the operation of that mill from the time ·the government took it over until they closed it down. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon. member for Kilbride. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. ALYWARD: Mr. Speaker; because this is my first opportunity to speak in this House of Assembly of Newfoundland I would like to begin my remarks by offering my congratulations to you, Mr.

Speaker, on your election as Speaker of this House and I would also like to congratulate my colleague the hon. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt) on his appointment as Deputy Speaker. Because you are both new members in this hon. House)as I am,these prestigious positions are certainly a credit to your past reputations and abilities. I also would to congratulate the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) , a gentleman for whom I have a great deal of respect. I would like to congratulate all the elected members on both sides of the House on their election or re-election as thevcase may be.

I look forward to a 512

JUly 23,1979 Tape No. 208 DW - 2 MR. R. ALYWARD: productive four years where we,as elected representatives of the people 1 can show every Newfoundlander that we have their best interests at heart. Andeven though we all know that everything will not be a bed of rosesjwe must let the people in each of our districts know that they are being represented well. But most of all, we must be honest with all Newfoundlanders and no matter what the circumstancesJwe have to keep our people fully in!vrmed.

My deepest thanks and appreciation ~has to go to the electorate of the district of Kilbride who have expressed a deep confiuence in me and our leader, the hor.. Premier,to represent ~~em for the next several years. My attitude,while member for the district of Kilbride,will not be governed solely by my ambitions to become re-elected in the next provincial election but I will be giving my constituents direct answers and I will be working very hard on their behalf. I would like to extend a special word of thanks to all the volunteer workers who helped me during my first ever political campaign.

It is interesting to note that approximately 80 per cent of these volunteer workers were first-time campaigners and they have showed me that there is a renewed interest in political life in our Province and in our district especially. I would like to thank all of them for their time and their support. I have been asked by many of the electorate of the district of Kilbride,also,to thank the former M.H.A. for our district, Robert Wells, for his excellent representation while he was representative of our district. And the people of the district of Kilbride have expressed a deep regret that Mr.

Wells has left political life because during his years as our representative,he was an asset to the Government of NewfOundland. The people of Kilbride and· I am sure the people of the Province, will miss Mr. Wells very much. Most of all,I wish to congratulate the hon. Premier, the leader of our Province, the man who convinced rather than conned 1 as the hon. gentlemen opposite did say, the people of Newfoundland that it is time to change, it is time to look forward, time for the 513

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 208 DW - 3 MR. R. ALYWARD: elected representatives to show, through our example, that only by hard work and perserverance can 514

July 23, 1979 Tape 209 PK - 1 Mr. Avlward: through the great majority which they have given me, that they wish to have a new brand of politics and -;cve:::-~-e::.t ':·!~i'=h ':·~ l{nnw t:he hnn .._ PrPmier will bring to our Province. Because I am the fourth generation of my family to live in the district of Kil~ride 1 I am familiar with the district and with the people througho~t our district. I would imagine that I am the first person to be elected to this han. House who was born and raised in the district of Kilbride.

The main reason that I did seek political life at this time 1 was my deep confidence in the Leader of our party, and that I believed the time was right for our district to have local representation. I promised only during my campaign that I would work as hard as possible for the district of KilbricP and that I would represent each area and each person in our district equally. I can assure you that I am here to represent the district of Kilbride.

I have no special interest groups to represent, I have no big business backing, I have no labour union to answer to now that I am elected, people of the district of Kilbride. I owe my loyalty only to the SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. AYLWARD: This district is made up of a Iitb:ture of urban and rural communities and the district, like many districts in the Province of Newfoundland 1 does have many needs for which I will be fighting. I would like to familiarize some of you with some of the needs that I will be looking forward to attempting to solve within the next four or five years.

An area of my district, which is included in the city of St. John's, that part being South of Topsail Road,has unbearable traffic problems in the morning and evening rush hours, and we are hoping that the opening of the downtown arterial road and the crosstown arterial will alleviate some of these problems. In this area of the district we also have the most beautiful recreational park in Eastern Canada, being Bowring Park, which is a great expense on the city of St. John's, but is now 515

July 23, 1979 Tape 209 PK - 2 Mr. Aylward: being used by the total region around this area. The Southside Road area of my district 1 which is generally a residential area,for the past number of years has seen its traffic problems increase as it is being used as an alternative downtown route because the Waterford Bridge area, Waterford Bridge Road and Topsail Road are virtually at a standstill now. There are not any playgrounds in this immediate area and we will be looking to see if we can solve this problem.

The Shea Heights-Blackhead Road area of our district needs more and improved recreational facilities and a public transportation system among other things. In this area there are still residents who are being served by night soil trucks and water wagons and we will be fighting to have this remedied. In Blackhead we have a church which can be proven to be at least 140 years old, and I will be working to have this historic church restored and preserved.

Maddocks Cove area is in for some major development, yet some of the area outside of Petty Harbour-Maddocks Cove Town Council has been zoned as the scenic route and some of the long-time landowners and residents are unable to develop their own land. In the Goulds we have need of an extension to water and sewer projects, Some which have already been started under this administration, we need them finished and extended. And the farmers and landowners in this area wish to have more progress in some recommendations being made to settle the agricultural land freeze which affects the Goulds and Kilbride area.

In the community of Kilbride there is to be a third phase of the water and sewer project which has not yet been started, and I will be seeking information on the prospects of having this project finished. Because the West End of the city of st. John's• the Kilbride and Goulds area,have been developing at such a rapid rate, 516

JUly 23, 1979 Tape 209 PK - 3 Mr. Aylward: ~~do have problems with recreationai · facilities, naffic pr oblems, school overcrowding, inadequate water and sewer faciilt::ie s . But 'lo/e also realize tc ::orrect t~ece sit:!.,tior"• ; ,. will cost: a great deal of money and the people who receive these services will have to pay for them. There has eo be some sensible tax s t .ructure adopted throughout the Island so that the services can be offered to all of our cistricts 517

July 23, 1979 Tape 210 EC - 1 MR. AYLWARD; and when these services are offered~ the people who expect the services will know exactly what they will have to pay. Another issue which will affect the whole of my district will be regional government and I would hope that this will be discussed at length at a later date. As a Newfoundland land surveyor I have travelled throughout Newfoundland and Labrador and I am familiar with the Province as a whole.

I have developed a deep affection and interest in the Province and I wish that my children should know and love this Province as I do and that they will have the opportunity to work in our Province rather than have to move like some of our past generations had to do. Mr. Speaker, I am encouraged by the reference in the Speech from the Throne that this government has pledged its attention to the preservation of our heritage and culture. I am sure that each member of this hon.

House will agree that no matter what the development in our Province, we must protect our individuality, our unique culture and our unpolluted environment. As suggested in the Speech from the Throne and brought through in the Budget Speech, this government has established a Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council which will be a major step in the preservation of our culture which we all cherish so much. I realize that there are very many topics which can be covered in reply to the Speech from the Throne and I am sure they will all be covered as each hon. member has his or her opportunity to express their views.

My final comment is a wish that each of the hon. members of this House conduct his or her affairs and comments as if their children were looking on, as were the children of the hon. member opposite. And if we conduct our activities as if our children were listening to our every word, I am sure that this hon. House will be conducted in the dignified manner in which it was intended. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 518

July 23, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Si111111S) Bay d' Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Tape 210 EC - 2 The hon. the member for Burgeo - Mr. Speaker, first of aJ.l, I do want to offer my sincere congratulations to the member for Kilbride (Mr. Aylward) for a very excellent first speech. I shall look forward very much to listening to him on other occasions. I have not heard many of the maiden speeches in this session because I have been away a couple of days myself, but I do want to extend my very best to him and to all members elected for the first time to the House, and to you, Mr. Speaker, on your election as Speaker.

I always said that if I could not get the job myself, I would put one of my relatives there. And it is probably a little known fact, which will now become better known, that you and I, Mr. Speaker, are related to each other despite the different last names and I will leave it to the House to decide to whose credit that is. help but reflect, Mr. Speaker - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SIMMONS: what the other side is thinking! MR. MORGAN: MR. SIMMONS: But on a more serious note, I could not (Inaudible) not your fault. - that is my own side saying it, imagine It has to be his fault.

It is too nice a day 'JiiiiiiY', too nice a day! I am not even going to take the bait, boy! On a more serious note, though, in reference to your appointment, Mr. Speaker, I could not help but reflect on just how very proud your father, Mr. Max Si111111S, would be could he be here today and see you occupy that position as you did your other position as head of a large national organization to which he gave - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: as many members of the House will know, Mr. Speaker's father, Mr.

Max Si111111S, gave many valuable years to another similar organization, the Lions International, indeed, became, I believe, the first native Newfoundlander to be an international director of the 519

July 23, 1979 'l'ape 210 EC - 3 ~. SIMMONS: International Lions Club. Md I am very proud. to say that that gentleman is !IFf I!IDther' s Wlcle, !IFf great-wxc:le, a Mia.< wl'.Ot.l ::: have tho:: w:ot trellkm®us admira.t.ion fur. · ::: Cll!l part.i:cW..ar:i.y deli9hted that one of his descendants is able to; in a way, represent what he stood for here in the Hollse of Assembly. To your usociate, Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Speaker from conc:eption Bay South (Mr. Butt), my very best wishes as well. I would particularly want to just say a WQ'rd in reference to the former Speaker (Mr. Ottenheimer). It was really 520

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 2ll SD - 1 MR. R. SIMM:>NS: during his tenure in the office that I got accustomed to the House and I am indebted particularly to him for helping me get oriented without getting flung out too often. There were one or twc occasions but for neither of these do I blame Mr. Speaker, indeed, I admire him for doing so well what he had to do and so gently. But I believe this House was served particularly well by Mr. Speaker Ottenheimer, the present Minister of Justice, anc he did much during the last session of the House to make the House as productive as it turned out to be • Mr.

Speaker, I want to, also, by way of preliminary remarks,just extend publicly a word of congratulations to the new Leader of the Opposition (Mr. D. Jamieson), the member for Bellevue, and I want to say that I am especially delighted and proud to be serving under his leadership and I am looking forward to a very productive Opposition, I believe a very different styled Opposition than perhaps the. House has witnessed in many years.

And, as I say, I am looking forward to working with the Leader of the Opposition and with the members of caucus,.both those who have returned and those who have been elected for the first time. Mr. Speaker, as has been pointed out with new rules, we do not have a lot of time for long-winded

preambles so I shall try a little more quickly to get to the point and that is to debate for a few moments the matters contained in the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne. Just before doing so I am reminded that another one of my former constituents has seen fit to come here and represent himself and I am especially delighted to see the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. D. Stewart). He and his predecessor, Mr. Jack Winsor, were both once constituents of mine. I think it says something. I believe they got represented so badly that they decided to come and do it themselves. But he is here anyway and I am especially delighted to see him. 521

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 211 SD - 2 MR. R. SIMMONS: On the matters contained in the ~ddress in Reply to the Speech from the Throne, I would like to highlight just two or three today, Mr. Speaker, there being a shortage of time insofar as my own time allotment is concerned. I am a little at a loss to understand what it is the government is proposing insofar as job creation is concerned. A lot by way of

preamble could be said about the Throne Speech. It is a very general document. We ought to bear that always in mind, that it is a very general document, it is no~ the kind of thing that is going to itemize in any particular detail the steps which a government would, or an administration of governm~nt would propose to take and in its vagueness is its virtue really. A Throne Speech has to be somewhat vague, somewhat general, not too specific.

And so when I look at the statement about creating 40,000 new jobs over the next five years, while I realize it is a generality, it is very specific in one aspect, it does place a number rate in black and white print, it does say 40,000 new jobs, and so I look at the government's record. Now I am not going to get bogged down for today, I have some things I would like to say at the appropriate time about how new this administration is. I wish my colleague from Lapoile (Mr. s. Neary) were here because I was rather gratified with the comfort, the ease with which he uses the term 'born again'.

It goes to show that we, who represent the evangelical causes in society, have had some effect on the man from Lapoile. He is beginning to, at least, understand the terminology and I thought he expounded very well today. I am sure my father friend from Bay of Islands (Mr. L. Woodrow) would agree with me that he is half-way· there, there is hope for him yet. But I myself MR. S. NEARY: That is right. If I go to a few more charismatic meetings I will have it made. MR. R. SIMMONS: You will have him give his testimony in no time at all. I thought he handled that subject 522

July 2~. 1979 Tape No. 2ll so - 3 MR. R. SIMMONS : very wel.l of past and present adminiatratiDns and the difference that exist if any. But I want to say that fro111 the gove%lllllent's brief record~even if you talk about this present administration, and define this J?resent adlainistration as having lasted fzo111 March l7th,or whe.never that famous Irish day was, when they rejected the Irisblllan arid took the other fellow.

I will start, post March l7th so that there is m dQUbt alxlut whether I a111 tal.kinq alxlut the past o.r the past administration and I will deal stric:kly with thinqs present, tbinqs post March 17th. I hold before 111e a doc:UIIIent entitled The EconOJIIy 1979. It is dated 523

July 23,1979 Tape No. 212 AH-1 MR. SIMMONS : March 1979 1 so one could argue,well perhaps it was under the old soon-to-be-forgotten regime of Frank disaste~or Franko_ Moores? 5ut,no,I looked on the bottom and it is issued under the authority of the hon. w. Marshall and, of course 7 he was not in the old regime. Well 7he was in the old regime, Mr. Speaker, but he got flung out of the old regime and in the latter days he was in outer darkness 7 if you like 1 and it was only after March 17th that he was reclaimed for the benefit he is. so this document is post March 17th, I think you will all agree.

This document tells me about jobs too. This document tells me about jobs as well. This one tells me about 40,000 jobs over five years. And I heard the Minister of ~inance (Dr.CoJ.lins) say that already they have haj 8300 of those jobs produced in the last year. Well 1 that aside,let us stick with the Throne Speech. The Throne Speech talks about 40,000 jobs over five years.

That means on an average of 8,000 jobs a year and yet I read The Economy put out by the Cabinet Secretariat of this government, March 1979, and I read on page 16 of this document put out under the authority of the minister, the President of the Council, I read that employment as measured by the labour force survey inareased by 5,000 in 1978 and then I read that employment generation in 1979 is not expected to match that of 1978. Now,let us understand who the authorities are here, Mr. Speaker.

These are the highly paid mandarins, the highest paid civil servants of government who sit down on the seventh and eighth floors and advise the government on financial and economic matters- The Speech from the ~rone,it must be admitted,is essentially a political document. This is what the politician wants the public to hear.Whether it is t;le truth or the varnished truth or the half truth is another issue? but this is the political document, this is what the politician wants the public to hear.

This 1 I would assume,should be the unvarnished truth, what the technocrat is paid to tell his bosses- And he had better be paid to tell the truth or else he is going to get his bosses in 524

, ' July 23,1979 Tape No. 212 AH-2 MR. SIMMONS: a lot of trouble. This is the private document which I happened to get my hands on today. This is the private document. This is what the technocrat tells his. b<l:>& pJ:i1i .. tto:i.y. 'rhi" i .. 'Whdt. his boss f'"dciloo" to the puillic publicly. The difference? I am talking about the same document. The same document. This document, the private document, Mr. Speaker, says on page 17, employment generation in 1979 is not expected to match that of 1978. In 1978 we had 5,000 jobs.

And if you are not good at deduction, forget it, just follow me to the bottom of the page. It says the expected rise in employment for 1979 is going to 4,000 jobs. Four thousand jobs, Mr. Speaker, not the 8,000 that is projected here, 4,000. Now you say, well, they are allowed one mistake. They are allowed one mistake. Eight thousand but th~y .meant _4,000. Alright~ let us put that mistake aside for the moment, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: thinking - MR.. SIMMONS: They made a mistake on housing - Let us put that mistake aside for the moment, Mr. Speaker, since that might be the only mistake.

Perhaps that is the only one they have made, where they said 8,000 jobs a year they really meant 4,000 a year. But then you hear the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor) as my friends reminds me today. The quote, "$1-, 500" housi~g grants ~-- -the $1,500 housing grant. I think after what you heard from the minister today you will see that I am justified in putting $1,500 in quotation marks. Now, I heard a little giggle from the other side when I asked the supplementary question.

Some of the people over there may not have realized what I was getting at in terms of the minister's contradiction with what was in the Budget. First of all 1 the Premier's promise before the election is $1,500 , rio ifs, ands or buts. No,if you are building a new house. No,if you are living in it for the first time, uone of that. No, but you cannot have it if you get over $20,000 but you can only get some of it if you are 525

July 23,1979 Tape No. 212 AH-3 MR. SIMMONS: getting SlS,ooo, but you can only get something less if you are earning $10,000. Oh, no, none of the ifs, ands and buts then 1 526

July 23, 1979 Tape 213 EC - 1 MR. SIMMONS: just $15,000, vote for us - sorry, $1,500- vote for us; fifteen hundred bucks. So every homeowner who is or second house, reasonably expected - because the Premier is a man whom we have learned to take at his word - reasonably expected that $1,500 meant $1,500, until we read the Budget, and then we find the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) saying, 'Well, not $1,500- not quite, no­ $1,000 to $1,500.' But then again, to the credit of my member - I live in St.

John's South, he is my member in the House of 1.ssembly, the Minister of Finance, and then during the Summer I move out to Kona Beach and I have no less a personage than the Premier as my member in the House of Assembly; so I am doing very well, I am well situated - I have the Premier and the Minister of Finance representing me here in the House of Assembly. MR. NEARY: They are both from the (inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: Oh, they do their very best. I must say, I get the most adequate representation here. I read in the Budget Speech, Mr.

Speaker, from the Minister of Finance, that grants will range from $1,000 - and I am sure the member for Harbour Main - Bell Island (Mr. Doyle) must have been disturbed by this contradiction, his Premier out on platforms during the election promising $1, 500 1 and he is going to have to answer to a number of people in Harbour Main and Bell Island for this untruth,that what the Premier called $1,500 the Minister of Finance has since called $1,000 to $1,500.

But on the other hand, I say to my friend from Harbour Main - Bell Island, at least he can be grateful that the Minister of Finance was specific, he did not weasel on it. He was very specific, he said, 'will range from $1,000 to $1,500.' Now trrf understanding of that is that it will not go below $1,000 - that is my understanding - MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SIMMONS: afternoon. Right. - when $1,000 to $1,500 means exactly that. Too bad. 'Ibat was my understanding until 3:15 this 527

July 23, 1979 Tape 213 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS: And then the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. Windsor) got up and at one point I heard him say the pkrase 'less than $1,000' and I thought he had made a slip. So as a friend, I got up to draw it to his attention. Less than $1,000? This has never been mentioned before. Now they are going to give less than $1,000 to the same people that the Premier promised $1,500 to7 to the same people that the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) Promised at least $1,000 to? Now it is going to be something less than $1,000? I asked, How much less? Five hundred dollars?

The Premier's promise of $1,500 becomes the government proposal of $1,000. The minister's performance gets it down to $500. And the homeowner's predicament will be such that he will probably find he has none. Does he qualify? What does he qualify for? - $1,500? $1,000? $500? Anything at all? What does he qualify for? I Well, there are a few ifs there yet. They are not al\J. ironed out yet. You might get $500 if your house is sub-standard. Well, mine is, Mr. Speaker. I qualify. Mine has the eaves dropping off, it needs to be painted, storm door blown off. My house is sub-standard.

I allll:)st said I am sub-standard, but there is no grant for me, I suppose. But I certainly qualify if the rules that the minister gave today apply. Or the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) qualifies, there is no question about that - MR. NEARY: He has termites in his savoury patch. MR. SIMMONS: - that is if the salary is different from the income. If it is a salary of $20,000 that determines it,then he will qualify, but if it is an income he will be paying II'Oney into the programme. There are still a few ifs there about this homeowner progra111111e or this homeowner grant.

If it is sub-standard, well, like I said, it is going to be quite a can of worms writing rules to satisfy that one. You know, if you live next to me and your house is sub-standard enough to get a grant, well, I will prove pretty fast that rrry house is just as sub-standard. Where do you draw the line between not as sub-standard as the next sub-standard house? But the big if, of course, Mr. Speaker, is that if the house is not above floor level. Well, I hope the press do a good job 528

July 23, 1979 Tape 213 RT - 3 MR. SIMMONS: on one thing today because they will do a service to every - 529

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 214 GH-1 MR. SIMMONS: guy out there who is building a house today. Will the press see to it that everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador knows that if you have the house built above the floor, you do not get 'not nary a nickel', and let the word go out that all those fellows who have their framing stuck up, knock it down tonight because it is worth $1,500 to you to knock down your frame. If you have her framed up today, knock it down and do not drive another nail until the first of August. Do not drive another nail until the first of August, because if you have one stud stuck - AN HON.

MEMBER: Unsi:..i.ck it. MR. SIMMONS: . - unstick it, unstick it. 1 Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to say it is not - MR. F. WHITE: Some inconsistency. MR. SIMMONS: - it is not nearly as light a subject as I make it sound. There is, at the very least, some inconsistency. There is some unfairness here too and that is the point I am trying to make. There is some unfairness in this program. I do not mind a party going around during an election.

My party promised a freeze on electrical rates, and we fully intended to keep that commitment, and I would have fully expected that, had the positions been reversed and we were there in government and men and women who now sit on the government side were in opposition and we were reneging on the electricity freeze and only implementing certain parts of it, I would have fully expected that these people would have pointed out the difference between our promise and our performance.

So I am doing today what those would have done to me and should do under the circumstances, that a promise of $1,500 to people who need $1,500, people who are having increasing difficulty putting the dollars and cents together to build a home had false hopes raised on June 18th. There were no ifs, ands and buts. There was no 'if you are not earning so much money', or 'if you have not got the house above floor level' or 'if you are not earning so much money, you will get this and you will get that'. Nothing like that- it was $1,500, and I would say without fear of contradiction that not one member on the 530

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 214 GH-2 MR. SIMMONS: government side in his political rallies, in her political rallies, made that qualification that is now contained in the program. Not one member got up and said, "Now look, it might only be $500, it might only be a thousand".

I would venture a guess that everyone who mentioned it by way of trying to get elected mentioned one figure and one figure only $1,500, and I say to those members, if you did that you were dishonest albeit unwittingly, not knowing because your party let you down, but you were being dishonest because where you went out and promised $1,500, I say, Mr. Speaker, where that member went cut and promised $1,500 as a candidate, he can I now only deliver $500. He can now only deliver $1,000, $1,100 or $1,200, and I say to new members, "Do you find that shattering? Brace yourself." I Brace yourself.

You will be let down more times than this one. You will be let down more times than this one if you let this one slip by, but there is another way out. Members in the government caucus should go in caucus tomorrow or tonight and say, "I have had enough. \ole have been let down on this one and let us not let it happen again." I appeal to private members in the government caucus, particularly new members, to go back and say, "Look, we misled the people on this. That is not what the program promised." The program promised $1,500 for every new homeowner. That is what the program promised. There were no ifs in it.

There were no $500's for some and $1,000 for some others. MR. NEARY: And nothing about that you had to build the home. ~t was buying a home for the first time. MR. SIMMONS: Misled, Mr. Speaker, misled nothing about it being a first time homeowner - very misled on th.e amount and on a lot of the conditions. Now I understand, Mr. Speaker, I understand that people get carried away in the heat of an election and that you cannot write all the conditions in there.

I am not asking that that be done, but I am asking that people in public life keep the faith, I am asking that people who promise something that is clearly understood and to me $1,500 is different from $500; I am asking that people who make clear, definable, definitive promises be obliged to keep them, and we have a number of levers to see that they do keep them. 531

July 23, 1979 Tape No . 214 GEI- 3 MR. SIMMONS: One of the lever .s is this House, but an equally good lever in this context is the gover~ent caucus - not here, do not wash your linen in public, · I am not ct.sking that. I know what every IIIE!lllber on the govenJI!!ent side will do when he gets up. He will sing the government song. He will ~ce the party tune . and I will be surprised if he did not-. I would be surprised if he did not. Weil, do that if you feel you have to do it. Do that if you have to do it. MR. NEARY: And as a diversionary tactic talk about the decorum of the House. .MR. SIMMONS: That is right. I have had ev~ lecture, Mr. Speaker, I want to have 532 I•

July 23, 1979 Tape 215 IB-1 MR. SIMMONS: about the decorum of the House,particularly by those who were never here to see what it was like. MR. NEARY: That is right. That is right. MR. WHITE: Hear, hear: MR. SIMMONS: I have had every lecture I want to hear. And let me just say this abou~ the decorum of the last House. MR. NEARY: Which is the same as now,by the way, exactly the same as now. MR. SIMMONS: Let me say this about this Hous and the last House. Those who have been here they have been watchin the press.

Take today, for example - and this is no reflection in any adve way on the press, it is just a comment of how things are - you wa ch what will happen today. And t say to any new member here see if you can predict the press that will be on tonight on television or omorrow in the papers and I bet my bottom dollar you will not because what appeared to you in the House to be just a passing comment becam s a headline in tonight's news, in tomorrow's paper. What was happening in the last House can happen in this House, Mr. Speaker. It has not ad a chance to happen yet.

If you have some fun and games and some ~rk,chances are the press will write up some of the fun and games a d some of the work. If all you have is fun and games all the press s going to write up is the fun and games. And all we had in the la t House was fun and games as the government brought no legislation gave us nothing to talk about. here. The government MR. NEARY: we forgot all about that, the go e_~ent brings the programme in. MR. SIMMONS: That is what government that decides what goes on in this Ro calls an order of business that ought to be de order of business as we are doing now. MR. NEARY: Right.

Right on. , that it is the If the government we will debate the MR. SIMMONS: If there were times last year, Mr. Speaker, when that ethereal thing called the decorum of the House, whatever it is, did not 533

July 23, 1979 Tape 215 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: satisfy the pallets of the st. John's cocktail circuit, well my humble apologies. If it was not the kind of thing they wanted to talk about, well I am sorry we hurt them. I am sorry. But, Mr. Speake~, the times we frittered away the time and there were times we frittered away the time here, Mr. Speaker, the times we frittered away the time were those times when there was no agenda, no effective order of business for the House of Assembly. And when we are making all our grand appeals about decorum , include in it an appeal to the government to do its job in the House. MR.

NEARY: Right. Right on. MR. SIMMONS: Include in it an appeal that the government give us the business, the government give us the tools so we can do the job. It was not a pleasant House, Mr. Speaker. The last House was not a pleasant House, not a very pleasant House. We , had some very unpleasant things had to be talked about and have still to be talked about and will be talked about. MR. NEARY: Right on. It will not be covered up. MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I believe in light of what has happened today 1 insofar as this homeowner's grant is concerned,I would really like to see-politics aside now, let us look at the homeowner out there who has got a place half erected,who wants to start a house next month and he probably voted for the party who made the promise,on the basis of that promise and he heard in June- $1,500 is what he heard . Tonight he hears the radio and it is down to $500. But he has the west side of her stuck up already, he is above the floor. His sin is efficiency. His sin is getting on with the job.

His sin is that on June 18th he believed what he heard and so he took the hammer in hand for the last five weeks and rushed ahead with the job and he got her not only floored over, he got her framed up today. That is his sin. And do you know what he is going to get for that? Not a cent. Why? Because the party which made the promise is not prepared to keep the promise. And I say to this House,politics aside, I appeal 534

July 23, 1979 Tape 215 IB-3 MR. SI.MMOMS: to government members in particular to sort thi.s one out. I ask you not t o wash your linen in public. Do it privately. Go in the government caucus and say to the Premier (Mr. Peckxord) , That is not what you promised . Say to the Minister of Housing (Mr. M. Windsor ) get your pencil out and sharpen it a bit and find the li)Oney to keep the promise that I made as a candidate for that particular party. That needs to be done, Mr. Speaker. II honour means anything in this day and age, that needs to be done. I have a number of constit uents in my own j urisdiction who are acting in good faith on the basis of that pronuse, 535

July 23,1979 Tape No. 216 AH-1 MR. SIMMONS: who are planning their budgets on the basis of $1,500. And I say to all hon. members here that the difference between $1,500 and $500 - $1,000, in many cases will decide whether my constituents can build a house or not. That $1,000 difference will make the difference. And I would suggest to hon. members that that statement applies equally to constituents in all parts of this Province. And for that reason, Mr. Speaker, I make a particular appeal to government members that I believe this is where it has to be sorted out, in the government caucus.

The message has to go through privately. Now they will hear some lectures in their caucus about not being stampeded by Simmons or by the Opposition and they will be told to see this as a partisan thing. And they probably will. But I ask them something else. I ask them not to see it as a partisan thing, I ask them to see it as a matter of honour, as a matter of commitment. I ask them to realize that $500 if not $1,500 and the $1,000 difference will decide, Mr. Speaker, for many people whether or not they can build that !':ouse or not. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. member for St.

John's Center. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR.McNICHOLAS: Mr. Speaker, hon. members, my first duty and a very pleasant one is to thank the people of St. John's Center for electing me to this hon. House. And I would like to assure them, those who voted for me, those who voted against me and those who did not vote and also their children, that I will look after their interests to the best of my ability as long as I am a member here. I want to congratulate all hon. members and hope that we can work in harmony and if not in harmony, at least not in too much discord. I want to congratulate you, Mr.

Speaker, and the Deputy Speaker. I particularly want to congratulate the hon. the Premier. It was his vision of not the difficulties of Newfoundland but of the opportunities in Newfoundland,in the fisheries, in the 536 \ ~~

July 23,1979 DR.McNICHOLl\5: Tape No. 216 field of oil exploration and in so IIIM1Y other fie ids 1 it was that that was instrumental in getting me involved in politics this time round' I ~ very proud and honoured to be part of his team. I would like also to conqratulate the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I think any fair-minded Newfoundlander would say that he brought great dis~inotion not only to Newfoundland but to all of Canada while he was in Ottawa. I ll\iqht also add a personal note. I remember in the _past how lcind he always was to me.

When I was President of the Newfoundland Division of the Canadian Red Cross Society, I was interviewed by him on a number of occasions and he always went out of his way to ask rite the right questions, to cover up my ll\istakes and to project me in a very good light., and I am very grateful to him for it. Mr. Speaker, I have been in Newfoundland £or over twenty years. The first house I bought was in the district that I now have the honour tc represent and I have lived in that district ever since except for one year that I spent out in British Columbia and one year I spent working among my black friends in Africa.

During that time I do not think there wa!' any nook or cranny in Newfoundland in which I did not have a patient and many also frc111 Labrador. I think that over that period of time I began to see some of the problems, 537

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 217 GH-1 DR. MCNICHOLAS: some of the difficulties facing Newfoundland and I hope over the next few years that I will be able to make some contribution towards solving these problems. Mr. Speaker, during the election campaign, my ambition was to visit every house in my district and I did succeed in visiting over 90 percent of them. There are two main problems in the district of St. John's Centre; the first certainly not unique to St. John's Centre but that is unemployment.

I felt particularly sorry for what I would call the middle-aged unemployed, mostly heads of households, men in their 45's-50's-55's, and I realize only too well "that it is excremely difficult to get work for them. Oh,do not let anybody tell me that they are not looking for work. The other group that I am particularly concerned about are the young people just leaving school with their Grade 11, and I would like to suggest to the han. the minister directly in front of me here (Ms.

Verge) that she makes sure that there are enough places in our Fisheries College, in our College of Trades and Technology, in the new departments that are starting in Memorial University in marine biology, that there will be enough places there so that our young people will be able to take the jobs that we all see are beginning to unfold and will unfold over the next few years.

It may be selfish but I would like to direct another thing to her, also, and that is that I have noticed that there are quite a number of foreign students from Nigeria, from India and other places, and they are taking the places that rightfully, I think, belong to our own Newfoundland children. Mr. Speaker, the other big problem I noticed in my district was housing. Or should I say the lack of housing? I have had a number of constituents phone me about subsidized rental units anywhere in St.

John's, and I phoned the authority that looks after these units and I find that there is a waiting list of between 450 and 500 people waiting for these units. Mr. Speaker, right in the centre of my district there is one of the choicest pieces of real estate anywhere in Canada, beautiful land looking directly across to the Narrows, looking directly on St. John's Harbour, looking on the Southside Hills. 538

July 23, 1979 Tape No. 217 GH-2 DR. MCNICHOLAS: There is one block of land there immediately West of Cicy F'.all , s.ix and a half acres. This, l".r. Speaker, all over the place. Do you know, ~tr. Speaker, how long that land has been left idle? Not five years nor ten years, it has been empty, growing weeds for the last fourteen years and people are crying out for housing, crying out for employment. I am not suggesting that we should fill that with subsidized rental units.

I am not at all sure that we should not have a hotel and convention floor plus housing, but one thing for sure we do not want it empty when the city is complaining that they do not have enough tax dollars, when people do not have employment. Surely, ltt. Speaker, we could have a commit~ee of city people, provincial gove rnment and federal people and develop that land, and, ~tr. Speaker, I want to be a member of that committee . 539

July 23, 1979 Tape 218 RT-1 DR. McNIO!OLAS: Mr. Speaker, I had a traumatic experience in getting the nomination for St. John's Centre. and I do not want to have to go c.ilroU<,~h t.l1d.t. ~><p.:z.·:L.:nce o.gain. And ::: w~ll make s=e -th<!.t . I will not go through that experience again because I am determined to look after the people of St. John's Centre. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. McNIO!OLAS: I find it very hard to end my speech without being emotional because over the years Newfoundland has been very good to me. It has been very good to my wife and it has been very good to my six children.

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like, if I have your permission and that of the House, to end on a much lighter note. I have here an Irish song that I adapted slighUy to Newfoundland conditions. I have two verses of it. And if I have your permission I would like to end on that. AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed. DR.

McNICHOLAS: When I was a young man I had not a penny/ When should we marry? my Molly would say/ But I was a wise man and said to me darlin'/ Love that is true love will not fade away/ Oh the youth of the heart and the dew in the morning/ You wake and they have left you without any warning/ I came out to Newfoundland looking for money/ I worked all the day and I slept all alone/ The sweet silver dollars I saved for me darlin'/ To dress her in satins and make her my own/ Oh the youth of the heart and the dew in the morning/ You wake and they have left you without any warning. SOME HON • MEMBERS: MR.

SPEAKER: {Simms) Isle. S~ HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, over the years that I have been fortunate enough to be a member of the House I have listened with a great deal of interest to many performances, to use that word in its truest sense, I do not think I have every heard one quite as effective as the hon. genUeman from St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) • I know I speak 540

July 23, 1979 Tape 218 Rr-2 MR. RJBERI'S: for all of the House on this, I would give him our compliments, our envious compliments if he has ever best, Methodist voices ,and could not carry a tune in a .basket. I thought he sang exceptionally well. When he launched into what he told us was an Irish tune I thought perhaps he n~ght have been using that line from Galway Bay about a language that the strangers do not know. I would compliment him and I think it was a noteworthy ending to his maiden speech. I can not refrain nor should I refrain from expressing the hope that his example will .be infectious.

And if some of his colleagues would sing because, Sir, they will doubtless sing better than they speak and that, Sir, would be something we would all welcome. But I compliment the hon. gentleman. There are precedents. I do not know if there are precedents in this because I think Mr. • Ank' Murphy 1 who was a unique character and added considerably to the stature of this House over the years - I think he once was prompted, or irked as the case may be , into .break,ing forth into song.

And, of course, there is a fairOus precedent in the House of Co111100ns in Ottawa where another Newfoundlander with Irish .blood flowing in his veins, the late senator Jack Higgins, once sang, The Shooting Of 'the Buck, and that was to protest - MR. W. CARTER: Gordon Higgins. MR. RJBERTS : Gordon Higgins, I am sorry. I thank my hon. friend from St. Mary's - The Capes, the Minister of Fisheries, (Mr. W. Carter). Both Mr. Higgins contributed mightily 541

July 23, 1979 Tape 219 IB-1 MR. ROBERTS: Parliament of Canada but the late Gordon Higgins who was then,I guess, the member for St. John's East,sang The Shooting Of ~e Buck in what I believe was a successful protest against some rules which the then Government of Canada wanted to adopt to limit the Newfoundlander's right to shoot the buck. That was sung to the tune of The Wearing Of The Green, Oh Paddy dear, and if I go any further the gentleman for st. John's Center (Dr. McNicholas) will either be embarrassed or the House will be embarrassed. But I would compliment him.

I must say though there was one part of that speech with which I would take exception. I think I heard him correctly. I may be doing him a disservice. Some of my colleagues heard a different sentiment but I thought I understood the hon. gentleman to say that he felt that students at the university who come from outside Newfoundland or perhaps from outside Canada were taking places that were rightfully the property, to use that phrase generally, the property of Newfoundlanders. Was that - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. ROBERTS: So I did hear him. It was my colleagues from Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) and from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) who misheard it. I would take issue with that. I do not feel that we should run ·a university for the benefit of the rest of the world but I think at the same time that if we in Newfoundland and Labrador ever come to the point where we exclude the people from outside,I think that first of all we are denying ourselves a great part of our educational experience.

I think the hon. gentleman himself would be the very first to testify to the fact that the life of this Province, the communal life of this Province, the society of this Province, is immencely improved by people who come fiom across the seas. As he himself said - and I marked his words down - Newfoundland has been very good to him. Well I would say that in turn, Sir, the hon. gentleman for St.

John's Cente~with whom I may have political differences but I hope no personal differences, that he has made a contribution to this Province, to this world, to the new world to which he came many years ago but came to make his life and his career. I do not think 542

July 23, 1979 Tape 219 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: we in this Province, Sir, should ever turn our back on the rest of the world both for our own sake and for the sake of the world. We are all citizens of the world. And in an age when we have seen evoked in Canada an incredible and a heartening response to the plight of the boat people in South Eastern Asia, I think we should remember we are all citizens of the world.

And we in North America while we may have our problems and we in Newfoundland and Labrador feel that we do have problems and all of us dealing with constituents are very much aware of some of the problems, I would say from what little I know, from the opportunities I have had to travel and from what I am told by others who have travelled,that there is nobody in Newfoundland and Labrador who faces anything like the problems that most of the people of this world face today in just even living let alone in enjoying life or in developing their potential.

I think within reason we should certainly ensure that our university is open. Knowledge, I would add as well, Sir, knowledge knows no"province. University by its very definition is universal and knowledge is not limited to the physical boundaries of this Province or the territorial boundaries of this country of ours. I think it would be very much a smaller and very much a poorer place. So with all respect to my friend from St. John's Center (Dr. McNicholas)