Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 41 (27th Legislature, 1st Session)

27-1-41

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA ,2: 30 o •clock, Thursday, April 4th, 1963. Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. Reading and Receiving Petitions. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. HON. STERLING R, LYON, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments beg leave to present the following as their first report. Your Committee met for organization and appointed Honourable Mr. Lyon as Chairman.

Your Committee recommends that for the remainder of the Session the quorum of this Committee consist of ten members. Your Committee has considered bills: No. 2,

an Act to amend The Provincial Parks Act; No. 5,

an Act to amend The Court of Appeal Act: No, 18,

an Act to amend The Womens • Institute Act; No. 20,

an Act to amend The School Attendance Act; No. 22,

an Act to amend The Vital Statistics Act; No. 25,

an Act to amend the Tuberculosis Control Act; No. 33,

an Act to amend The Mortgage Act; No. 35,

an Act to amend The Coroners Act; No. 36,

an Act to amend The Apprenticeship Act; No. 40,

an Act to amend the Soldiers Taxation Relief Act; No. 41,

an Act to amend The Education Department Act; No. 45,

an Act to amend The Manitoba Teachers Society Act; No. 46,

an Act to amend The Winter Employment Act; No. 64,

an Act to amend The Public Buildings Act; and has agreed to report the same without amendment, all of which is respectfully submitted. MR. LYON: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Wel- fare that the report of the Committee be received. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Introduction of Bills. The Honourable Member for Souris-Lansdowne. MR. M. E. McKELLAR (Souris-Lansdowne) introduced Bill No. 98,

an Act to incorpor- ate Victoria Park Lodge and to authorize the Town of Souris and the Rural Municipality of Glenwood to make certain grants thereto. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River) introduced Bill No. 72,

an Act to amend

an Act for the Relief of the Estate of Charlie Young, Deceased. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie) introduced Bill No. 84,

an Act to amend The Portage la Prairie Charter. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Industry and Commerce, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the proposed resolutions standing in my name and in that of the Honourable the Provincial Secretary, Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the .Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been inform ed of the subject matter of the proposed resolutions, recommends them to the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 1, Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide for the incorporation of The Civic Development Corporation, and, among other things, for the guarantee by the government for the repayment of principal and interest of first mort gage debenture bonds issued by the corporation. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure that members who have followed the matter of urban renewal over the past years will recall the interest that this administration has express ed in this problem. It seems to me that it was in the latter part of 1958, perhaps the beginning of 159, that I wrote to the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg with respect to this whole matter and suggested a program for the renewal of the centre of th.e City of Winnipeg in co-operation with the Government of Manitoba.

Certain studies were made at that time and for reasons which ate not germane to this resolution before the Committee, it was decided not to proceed. But ever since that time we have followed with a keen interest the developments in this connection with April 4th, 1963 Page 989

(Mr. Roblin cont 'd) ..... a view to achieving the goal of policy that was set ou then by what ever means might prove to be the most acceptable to the public and to those concerned. And it is therefore with some pleasure that I introduce this resolution that is here today, because this is part of a general plan that we have been working on for the redevelopment of this area and provides a piece of machinery by which it should be carried out. .

Normally this might be a private member's bill, but for one exception which I will come to in, a minute or two; but seeing it is being introduced through the government here I can say that it provides for the establishment of a civic development corporation which will be a body corporate in politic not as an agent of the Crown but as an independent corporation that will have power to proceed with what measures that seem appropriate inthis question of development and renewal for a very large area, extending from the CPR tracks in the City of Winnipeg south to the Assiniboine River and east of Main Street.

This body will be a non-profit organization. It will be found, I think, when the bill is before the House, to be under the sponsorship of a very distinguished group of private citizens, in whom I think the public in general will have confi dence; and their general aim will be to assist in this problem of urbari renewal, and if in the course of their transactions profits are realized they will not be for the benefit of the corpora tion or those who take

part in it, but will be put aside as a trust fund for charitable or cultural purposes as the circumstances may dictate at the time the money becomes available. I believe it will be found to be a tremendous contribution to the welfare of our community that this group of citizens whom I think I can say will be named in the bill itself, have seen fit - to lend their names and to lend their interests to a development of this sort, and that it can be tremendously helpful in the whole of this renewal problem.

And at the same time any profits that may accrue, and I anticipate and hope there may be some, from real estate developments that may take place in this connection, will accrue not as a matter of profit to those concerned, but as a contribution or a fund for some suitable charitable or cultural purposes which perhaps will be disclosed as this thing is developed a little further. So, I place this resolution before the House and say that when the bill itself is available and we are able to see all that is involved, I look forward to making a further statement on the matter. MR.

GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for his statement, and we 1ll be looking forward to the bill with a great deal of in terest. In his comments I think he mentioned the fact that there was a particular reason why this was a government bill rather than a private member's bill and I don1t believe that he gave that reason to the House. MR. ROBLIN: · .... . ... the Committee, Mr. Chairman, I think I got carried away with the possibilities here.

The nub of the matter in this, that the people who are going to join this corporation will themselves put up a rather large sum of money as a first contribution toward the capital required for such an operation.

When that has been done, they will have the author ity under this legislation to issue first morgage bonds or something of that nature to raise more money, and the government undertakes to guarantee these first mortgage bonds as to principle and interest, provided they do not exceed a ratio of 2 to 1, with respect to the contributions that are made by private citizens and of course, which would be subject to any first charges against this corporation.

I believe that the government security will be much more than ample under the circumstances, but it will assist this corporation in securing the capital it needs for the purchase of real estate in propositions of this sort to be able to rely upon a government guarantee. So the reason why it is coming in as government bill is because that guarantee fac tor is in the bill; otherwise it would be private; but naturally of course under these circum stances we must take the responsibility for it. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I see now the reason. I have a further question to the First Minister.

Is the guarantee the only contribution of the province, or will the province also contribute direct funds and possibly technical assistance and personnel? It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that some years ago a committee was set up by my honourable friend to study this very area, and I don't recall the House receiving a report from this committee. I wonder if the Minister could find that committee, or the report of that committee, and possibly make it available to the members of the House when they come along to discuss the bill itself.

Surely as we look at many of our cities and we see the ageing process going on in them, we have to take action to change this, to bring the old areas back to life. This is an advantage I think to Page 990 April 4th, 1963

(Mr. Molgat cont•d) .....•• everyone involved. When we look at cities like Minneapolis, where a great deal of this has been done in the very centre of the city -- been an entirely changed city in the course of a very few years. I'm sure there1ll be a great deal of interest in this bill that the First Minister has presented.

There will of course be questions as to what will be the con tribution of the municipalities directly involved in this, the City of Winnipeg fjrst and foremost, and then the Metropolitan Corporation, because in all this if we are going to have sensible de velopment, then obviously there has to be a tying in to the long range programs of the civic bodies involved, otherwise it could end up by being a piecemeal development instead of an over all pl3.rined basis. So, those are the things, Mr.

Chairman, that I hope the Minister will in form us on; if not at this stage, then when we come along to the second reading,. and I would appreciate if he would make available to the House the report of the group that studied this very area, I believe, back in 158 or 159. ·MR. SAUL CHERNIACK (St. John's): Mr. Chairman, I thirik that we can welcome this evidence of some form of action.

TheHonourable First Minister m:entioned.that there was evi dence of interest some few years ago and my own feeling at that time was that there was evidence of interest only and that the interest .continued without. very much activity. As I recall it at that time the proposal was tied in With a suggestion that the City Hall be part of this centre and I recall some sort of opinions expressed by experts, presumably so, to the effect that it was not practical because of all the roads a� throughways and the railway there.

Nevertheless this seems to be a much more practical ap�roach limiting it to a development which could be made in conformance with the existing plans for traffic movement. ·Might I expect from the Honourable Minister that in due course we Will be assured that whatever authorities are given to this body that it will still have to comply with zoning and plan ning requirements of the authority which now exists.

Might I also enquire as to the powers of expropriation which might have to be given to this body; I imagine it will need powers of exprop riation and will have to conform to these requirements; but having asked these questions I want to end on the note that this is an area which certainly deserves a great deal of attention.

The urban renewal feature of it of course affects numbers of people but not very many dwelling houses because the area has changed so substantially that although it consists of some pretty poor slums, it is still to a large extent of a mercantile manner and therefore I think we would be extremely interested in knowing the. extent to which this corporation might work.

If it stays in the southern portion of the geographical area described by the Honourable First Minister I don't think it'll have much to do with housing assistance, with the urban renewal of course in that there •s some pretty awful j� there which has to be removed. But if it goes all the way through to Higgins then I can see that it will have a very important effect on the lives of the people who are there now. Ther-efore I would wonder whether it would have to work in with the urban renewal plans of the City of Winnipeg so as to provide housing for the people who would be displaced.

I,�illk it is a worthwhile effort; I think we are all looking forward to seeing the details in the bill so that we can really judge how grand an effort it can be. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, the honourable member who just spoke already referred to the expropriation area powers that the -- or he questioned them -- what powers the committee will have. I would also like to know further whether this committee will have arbitrary powers as to determine which properties will be expropriated or demolished in this respect and where will they draw the line. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr.

Chairman, the First Minister told us that this would be a non-profit corporation. I wonder if he could tell us what guarantee or what interest the investors will have for their investment, and clarify that. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I will deal with some of these points. Others I think could best be left to second reading because they deal with detailed matters that are germane to the bill rather than to the resolution. First of all I would like to say that the Honourable Member for St.

John's is_quite cor rect in saying that our original iliitiative ran on the shoals, and one reason was, though I don't think it was ever stated in so many words, was this business as to the location of the City Hall, because at that time there was a strong feeling that it could not be suitably located where it is now being built. I must say that I never shared that view and I think I made no secret of April4th, 1963 Page 991

(Mr, Roblln cont 1d) . . . . . the fact and I am quite pleased that as events turned out that prog nosis was wrong -- the City Hall is being built where it is and I think that is extremely im portant to the success of this whole urban redevelopment question. There •s another factor in that connection which is also important and which I will refer to on the next resolution that is before us.

So that what is happening, I think that the plan that was originally suggested for the ··development of part of this at least, while not being proceeded with in its original form, is ''in substance" now before us and the possibility in substance is now open to us that this tre mendous redevelopment may proceed. It is I think quite appropriate to refer to what has been done in the way of renewing the decaying core of other cities -- Minneapolis is one, the Golden Triangle in Pittsburgh comes to mind as another.

This is a continental problem and this offers us, I think, .a splendid opportunity to do something ourselves here. What particularly appeals to me I think and what I think is a distinct improvement over the first proposals we made, was the fact that this is, if agreed to by the House, this is going to be done by a group of Winnipeg people who will themselves dedicate their interest and their money to this important -- indeed this very important public proposition -- and we as a government will be in the position of back ing them up with the guarantee that I have referred to.

Now as to the question of zoning, I think this possibly is a matter for the bill, but I can say that my understanding is that they will have to comply as anyone else would have to do with the town planning, zoning, traffic and other arrangements that are laid down by the various municipal authorities involved. They have no power here to override the municipal authority. The question of expropriation is one that I think is important.

There is an expropriation clause to be considered I think and I would expect that it will require to be looked at extrezpely carefully by members· of the House when: that times comes because this is a power which must be handled with great discretion and we want to make sure that it is no more than the circumstances may require and that can be justified in the public interest. I think that it is well thatthe point is raised; I don 1t. propose to debate it now but I do suggest that that is a point that we will have to take great care about when it comes to the committee itself.

As to the plans of this body, well it hasn't been formed yet and the government has no intention of laying down a plan of operation in any detailed sense to a body of this sort. It will be up to them to devise their own program. I expect it will be a flexible one and I further ex pect it will take a great many years to bring to fruition and to complete.

I think it is premature at the present time to deal with the matter of planning, except to understand the general goal which is aimed at and the powers that are given to this body to achieve that goal and it will be our job to assess whether they are adequate or suitable under the circumstances and whether the goals sought are such as commend our support. I think it will be found -- I trust it will be found that the answer is yes to all those points of considerable interest.

Respecting the contribution of municipal governments and the provincial government, there is nothing that I know of that prevents a municipal government from making a financial contribution to this organization if they wish to. On the other hand, there •s nothing that compels them to do so. As far as the provincial government is concerned our liability at the moment is limited to the question of the guarantee which is before the committee. I don't anticipate at the moment that other public funds are required, although if that is the case we will undoubtedly : have to secure the approval of the House for it.

With respect to those who have made private contributions of capital, the rate of interest I believe will be found to be five percent. That's my understanding of the bill-- it's in the neighborhood and will be disclosed when the bill is before the House. Respecting the previous report that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition referred to, I'm trying to rack my memory in this respect.

I have a hunch that this report was not made to the government as such bt.t to the City Council or some other body; but I'm sure it's a matter of public record and certainly can be obtained one way or another and I'll undertake to look it up and see if it's in our library and make that information available so that members who wish to look at it can go and do so. I think, Sir, that those are the main points that were asked of me and I hope I have an swered the questions. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, insofar as the report to which I referred, it may be that it was given to City Council, although if my memory serves me right, my honourable friend, Page 992 April 4th, 1963

(Mr. Molgat cont•d) ...... very soon after he became the Premier, had set up the special com- mittee to look into this very area that we•re discussing now, that is, east of Main Street and south of the CPR tracks, and I believe that it was a committee set up by the government. They may have reported to the City but it seemed to me it was set up by my honourable friend him self. MR. ROBLIN: I'm not clear on that Mr. Chairman.

My recollection is that there was a special committee of the City Council operating at that time and they were the people who ulti mately said yes or no and I think they were the people to whom the advice was tendered by the commissioners that he speaks of, but regardless of that fact I'm quite sure it's a public document and can be obtained. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted? Resolution No. 2.

Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide for the incorporation of 11The Manitoba Centennial Corporation" for the organization of the commemoration and celebration of the centennial of Canada and of Manitoba and further to provide, among other matters, for the making of advances to the cor poration from and out of the Consolidated Fund. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, this is the bill that was promised to the House in the Throne Speech with respect to the celebration of the Dominion and Provincial Centennial in 167 and in 170.

The bill provides for the establishment of a Manitoba Centennial Corporation which will be appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council and which will be responsible for de vising the way in which, or making recommendations,. let us say, for the commemoration and the celebration of those two centennials in a few years from now.

The body will be an agent of the Crown and will be given authority to carry out the objects that I have mentioned, subject to the authority of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council; will have power to receive grants either from us or from any other government and to make grants and to acquire and to own property if that should be required. The Corporation will, we trust, be fully representative of the people of the province and will have the job of consulting with the municipal authorities and others who are interested in this to devise a program by which the centenaries may be properly observed.

One particular project is specified in the bill, and that is that it shall have the responsi bility of making plans for a permanent memorial in the capital of the province for an art centre as has been mentioned on a number of occasions. That is one project which is specifically placed before them for their consideration in planning and arranging with all the cultural bodies throughout the province and others who may be concerned.

Now it will be obvious that there will be other projects suggested, particularly I am sure by municipal bodies, both in the Greater Winnipeg area and in other parts of the province as to other suitable ways of celebrating the anniversary. I have had some suggestions myself from Brandon and I daresay we•ll be receiving a good many others from other places, but we have given this body authority to consider all these suggestions and to work out a program that will be province-wide in its character and will be a suitable method of celebration.

So that while we have specifically mentioned one project which we have pledged ourselves to do over the past year or two, we are also asking this commission to investigate other proposals of a suitable character that will be suggested by other people ..

And in addition to what might be called "perm anent" projects of the kind that I mentioned, I•m sure also that the commission will consider the actual festivities of the occasion themselves and try and have some arrangements to assist local authorities, probably in a financial way, with programs for the day that they will develop or special projects of a non-construction character, if I can use that expression, that various people may consider.

What we're trying to do here is to have the widest possible consideration of all the many good ideas that I•m sure we•re going to have as to how we may observe these centennials and put it in the hands of a body that is representative of all groups in the province so that suitable plans may be worked out and put into force, I think that the stress here is on full co-operation with local municipalities and with other groups in the province in this national and provincial celebration. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, we will once again await the bill with interest here to see exactly what is contained in it.

The Minister refers to one specific construction project, I would like to recommend another project which I believe could be included in the bill if the government were to take immediate action on the subject--- and I'm referring, Mr. Chairman, to the Pan-American Games. Now, we've had some discussion previously, there's been a great April 4th, 1963 Page 993

(Mr. Molgat, cont1d) ..•.• deal of discussion in Winnipeg about getting the Pan-American Games here.

We failed i.n our last bid, but there is now a distinct possibility that we may be able to get them for 1967, and it seems to me this would be a very fitting item to be included in this particular bill and also as part of our over-all celebrations -- th� Pan-American Games . taking in as they do almost all of the nations of North and South America and being actually more than just a sporting event but almost a type of festival because it does include in addi tion to the games, a good deal of cultural and art activities .. Connected with this there are soine permanent projects which will be involved.

I understand that the government has already committed itself to sharing one-third of the bill which is estimated at 1. 3 million dollars, and that the provincial government has accepted that and also the federal government has accep ted to participate to the extent of one-third. So having made -- if I'm correct in reading the newspaper report that I have -- having made this commitment financially that it seems to me that we should go the next step, Mr. Chairman, and put a good deal of effort in getting the Games here. I feel that the government is really not putting its full power behind this.

I under stand that there is going to be a meeting of the Pan-American Committee in Brazil in the course of. the next few days. There's a delegation going from the Province of Manitoba, or I should say from Manitoba, but no one as I see on that delegation, from the Government of Mani toba, Mr. Chairman, or representing this House; and it seems to me that this is important that we should do this.

If we are prepared to spend the money for the projects, we would have in those some long lasting projects -- I understand that some of the things that would be required, for example is an Olympic pool -- I understand that Assiniboine Park is recommended for that - but also projects in other parts of the province, not just in the City of Winnipeg, that I say to the government let•s go after this. Let's really put some people on that delegation from the Government of Manitoba as well and let•s assist this in every way that we can and let us make sure that we do get the Games here in 1967.

I have a particular proposal to make to the government in this regard, Mr. Chairman, I would recommend that the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce in whose depart ment this to a certain extent does fall, because there are here some important tourist aspects, that the Minister should go on this delegation and go down to Brazil to present the case on be half of the Government of Manitoba.

He is in a position to speak for the government, will be in a position to -- I would think he would be empowered to commit the government there so that the decision can be made there and then that we will know that we get the Games in 1967, in corporate it into our Centenary Celebration and proceed immediately with what•s required. I will make another suggestion.

In addition to the Minister himself who I'm sure can speak as I said from a financial standpoint for the government, I would recommend that my colleague the Member for Assiniboia also be a member of that delegation, because he is an individual who is in a position to speak with authority in the matter of sports, and he would along with the Minister be in ·a position to do a good job in 11selling11 Manitoba as the site for the 1967 Pan American Games as part of our Centenary year in this province. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party)(Radisson): Mr.

Chair man, I welcome the fact that the government now is asking us to give consideration to the celebrations of our anniversaries in 167 and •70. I'm pleased to hear from the First Minister that this corporation that is going to be set up will be representative of all sections of the community. I•m very pleased to have confirmed the fact that we are going to at long last have a sorely needed Art Centre in the Province of Manitoba. Now it seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, although I don't know, not having seen the bill, that there is some tie-up between the resolution that we dealt with a moment ago and this one, because I would suggest to the Honourable the First Minister that in the building of the Art Centre, that is proposed, in celebration of our centennial, that an allocation be made if at all possible,within the area defined in the first reso lution of the civic development centre, that this might add to the dignity of the proposed urban renewal in the area of the City Hall presently being built.

I think this would add to the over-all program which I visualize in my mind, correctly or otherwise, that the civic development corporation has in mind, and I think there should be a proper tie-in between the two -- and while I might say insofar as the City Hall is concerned at one time I had different opinions that I have at the present time -- but it does seem to me that if we can tie into the general area where the City Hall is now being built a new Art Centre for the Province of Manitoba in connection Page 994 April 4th, 1963

(Mr. Paulley cont'd) ..... . with our Centennial it would add impetus. Now I don't know whether or not there will be provisions and I may be tying in two resolutions with one, Mr. Chairman, but I think there is some justification for this -- will the corporation in the first resolution be able to authorize such projects as an Art Centre in the general area -- and for that reason, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to Q:ear a comment if possible from the First Minister in respect of this.

As far as the Pan-American Games are concerned as suggested by my Honourable Friend the Leader of the Liberal Party, I'm sure that the delegation that is going down from the City of Winnipeg will be fully competent to bring the Games here to the Province of Manitoba. I would like at this time to pay a tribute to the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg for the interest that he has shown in attempting to bring these Ga�s here for us to have the enjoyment of participating sports in the year 1967. MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Mr.

Chairman, I have a suggestion to make to the Honourable the First Minister, and it is made for the purpose of assisting the municipalities in the Greater Winnipeg area or in any other part of Manitoba to properly observe both the Canadian and Manitoba Centennial by some project of a permanent nature. I know of one city in the Greater Winnipeg area which is contemplating the erection of a large community and recrea tion centre.

It is going to cost in the neighbourhood of half a million dollars and I know that the alderman of that city would like to have the power under The Municipal Act of setting aside a reserve each year for that purpose, and my suggestion to the government is, although it does not properly come within the purview of this resolution, that municipal corporations in Mani toba for the purpose of properly observing the commemoration of the Canadian Centennial and the Manitoba Centennial be allowed to levy one or two mills each year for the purpose of creat ing a capital fund to be used for some project of a permanent nature.

MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to give my support to what the member said who just spoke, that whatever monies we are going to spend I think it should be spent in such a way that it will be of more lasting value and that we will be reaping the benefits of the money spent in years to come. I know already there is considerable support in this matter in rural communities and is being considered in many parts of Manitoba already, so that I think we will get the wholehearted support of the people in rural areas as well. MR.

ROBLIN: I think I may tell the committee that all or almost all of the suggestions they've made have already been anticipated by the government.

I can say that with respect t0 the suggestion of the Honourable Member for Selkirk, it is one in which we concur,· and while it is not germain to this discussion I suppose it is not out of the way to say that when the annual amendments come in to The Municipal Act there will be found among them a proposition that the municipality should be allowed to levy one mill, I believe, annually for a certain period of time with respect to accumulating a fund for these celebrations, and I agree that it would be highly desirable if these were put into some permanent memorial of commemoration.

So I think that that point is. going to be taken care of. Now as to the Pan-American Games I must say that I can't agree that it is either necessary or desirable to put them into this bill when the bill comes up, because after all we are concern ed with our own national celebration, and I don •t think it appropriate to include t:1.e Pan-Ameri can Games in a statute covering that matter. But, it is from our point of view, very appropriate indeed and a happy coincidence that it is possible that we may have the Pan-American Games for 1967.

Now I want to remind the House that when His Worship the Mayor of Winnipeg, to whom I wish to offer my hearty congratulations in this respect, when he first made this proposal, I think some three or four years ago with respect of the Pan- American Games of this year, he came to the Government of Manitoba and asked us if we would make ourselves responsible for one-third of the deficit with respect of those games if he could get them for Winnipeg at that time, and members will recall that we agreed, gladly, to lend that financial support.

So when he came again, having missed on the first occasion, I think quite understandably in view of the priorities that other communities had established, when he came to us again with a renewal of the suggestion we were very glad to give it our favourable consideration; and as members may know, we have written to the City of Winnipeg to say that we will be glad to make ourselves re sponsible for one-third of a deficit on an agreed budget. No sum has been set, it's a question of agreeing the budget in the first instance and then seeing where we go from there. But in April 4th, 1963 Page 995

(Mr. Roblin cont'd) ..... principle we have offered our support as we did in the past, imd we are naturally very anxious indeed that Winnipeg's application should be successful.

Now I think it must be recognized that they are entitled to take the lead in this matter rather than the Pro vincial Government, because after all the City of Winnipeg, the Mayor and Council, are the people who took the initiative in the first place, and while we are glad to co-operate with them, I don •t think it would be appropriate for us to try and usurp in a sense their privilege and per haps their responsibility, of leading the delegation or leading the effort to secure the Pan American Games for their city; and therefore, we have been anxious not to appear to be elbow ing our way in on the proposition which is essentially theirs.

At the last time these conferences were held in Chicago, the province was represented and it is our intention to be represented again when Winnipeg makes its presentation to the Pan-American Games Committee in Sao Paulo in Brazil. It has not been decided yet who will be there to represent the Provincial Gov ernment, but we believe that we will be able to find at least one suitable person to make it quite clear to the people down there that the province is wholeheartedly behind the City of Winni peg in their application. So we fully expect to be represented on that occasion.

Now, with respect to the point made by the Leader of the New Democratic Party, about the location of the Art Centre and its relationship to urban renewal -- with respect to his point in that connection, may I say that he has accurately defined our intentions. If members will recollect in the letter that I originally wrote to the Mayor of Winnipeg -- and I have it now be fore me -- in December 1958 about this question of urban renewal, I made three points.

First I said. the City Hall should be somewhere close to this area, and secondly that we should devel op a community centre including an Art Centre in this area and that these two projects would go a long way toward providing a magnet around which further redevelopment might take place, and would have a very important multiplier effect in encouraging urban renewal in that old heart of that community; and consequently it is our intention to see to it that the Art Centre is de veloped in co-ordination with the City Hall itself and in co-ordination with the larger develop ment program for the area in question, and arrangements to that effect will be made.

That is one of the reasons why it is specifically stated in the legislation that will be before you soon, that this project is part of our Centennial celebration. In a sense we're killing two birds with one stone on that one, but we think that this will be an important asset in the whole of this re development program. I think, Mr. Chairman, those are the main points that were raised by previous speakers. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, both the First Minister and the Leader of the NDP when speaking seemed to indicate that I had objections to the delegation that was going from Winni peg.

I have none whatever, and I said nothing insofar as the government leading the delegation. My point is that the government should actively participate in the delegation. Certainly the Mayor of Winnipeg is the one who has taken the lead in this from the very start and I might say that when he did it at the outset a lot of people were skeptical about what he was trying to do and felt that he was asking for something that was far beyond the possibility for Winnipeg. The fact is that he came very close to getting them.

However, the news reports that came out with in a day or so is that the Mayor of Winnipeg would not be going on this delegation and I think that it's important that the province indicate very clearly to the committee down there its very real interest in this, and its desire to have the games here, and that this can be done most effectively by having the two gentlemen that I mentioned as part of this delegation. The Minister says this should not be included in the bill because it1s a matter of inter national affairs and not just a national celebration which we are having.

This is true; but there are certain specific construction projects that will be involved in the Pan-American Games. These will not be, as I understand it, strictly in the City of Winnipeg; it will involve construc tion elsewhere, because the games are very extensive, will require in certain cases, I under stand at least, the use of water areas and so on.

This means that it will be diversified through the Province of Manitoba, and if there are some specific things to be built such as an Olympic pool -- I understand there will be a requirement for track and field meets of which we haven't enough now -- that these would be very fitting specific construction projects to be included in the bill and then to remain after that as markings of the Centenary celebration itself. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I'm afraid my honourable friend hasn1t persuaded me to change my mind, because we are not accepting the responsibility for the management and Page 996 April 4th, 1963

(Mr. Roblin cont•d) .. .. ... operation of the Pan-American Games and the projects connected therewith. We are accepting responsibility for the Centenary celebration and I think it Wl)uld be wrong to ask this committee to in a sense meddle in what is the business of another body, namely those who are going to be responsible, headed up by the City of Winnipeg, for the Pan American Games celebration. So I still feel it would not be suitable to include it in the legisla tion and it is not our intention to do so.

With respect to convincing the people in South America or with respect to our support of the Mayor of Winnipeg with respect to his initial proposal, I think our view is pretty eloquent, because we have put our money where our mouth is, and I cannot think of a much more force ful way of making it clear to those who are interested what our views are in this particular matter. We certainly intend to see that the Province of Manitoba •s position is adequately repre sented at the meetings in Sao Paulo. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted? Passed. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I only wish to repeat that I think that the active support of this government conceivably could make the difference in getting the Games here or not getting them here and everyone is interested in getting them here then everyone should co operate to do so; and if the government can take any steps by sending representatives down there then this should be done. MR. CHAIRMAN: Passed. Resolution No. 3.

Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to validate Order-in-Council 1566/62 whereby provision was made for the payments from and out of the Consolidated Fund to the Civil Service Superannuation Fund for the purpose of providing an increased superannuation allowance to James Downie Walker. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce and Provincial Secretary) (Fort Garry): Mr.

Chairman, this is typical of a number of cases that have been dealt with by the House over the years of allowing for purposes of superannuation time which did not qualify because the employee left the service of the Civil Service itself before the present Superannua tion Fund came into being in 1939. He subsequently joined the Hydro and an Order-in-Council was passed to give him credit for the years from 1926 to 1932 when he served the Department of Public Works, and to provide for the Consolidated Fund a pension as though he had earned it in those years. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted? Passed.

Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker the Committee of the Whole House has adopted certain resolutions and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. MR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River that the report of the committee be received. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN introduced Bill No. 104,

an Act to Incorporate the Civic Development Corporation, and Bill No. 99,

an Act to Incorporate the Manitoba Centennial Corporation. MR. EVANS:introduced Bill No. 7,

an Act to validate Order-in-Council 1566/62. MADAM SPEAKER: I would like to attract your attention to the balcony on my right, where there are seated some 30 Grade 7 pupils from Holy Cross School with their teacher, Sister Wilfred. This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable Member for. St. Boniface; and to the Speaker's Gallery where there are 13 members of a French Club from Frazee, Minnesota. We welcome you today. We are happy that you came to visit us.

We trust that your tour of the building has been enjoyable and that what you observe here in this our Manitoba's Legislative Assembly will be interesting, instructive and of assistance to you in your studies. Come back and visit us again. Orders of the Day. MR. LYON: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I should like to lay on the table of the House a supplementary return to an address by the Honourable Member for St. George, voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor on March 15th, 1963.

I should mention for the edification of honourable members, Madam Speaker, that there is one document being presented or tabled today which we would ask the honourable members to sub stitute in the original return, and that is the case of the original tender which was contained in the original return. The document that was previously provided bore the wrong date in that April 4th, 1963 Page 997

(Mr. Evans cont•d) ....• it was taken from an office copy supplied by the contractor rather from the original signed contract. So the new copy that is provided if it could be substituted for the copy that was originally provided it will bring the order up-to-date.

I might also mention, Madam Speaker, that Manitoba Hydro are continuing their search at the present time to ascertain beyond any question that there is no other material -- there is some additional material about which representations were made in the committee and some new material that was phoned in since that time from Grand Rapids, and there is one copy only attached to the copy that I have tabled of pictures, sketches and so on that were attached to tender material. That is the original that is filed; there are no other copies of it. HON. CHARLES H.

WITNEY (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, -I wish to lay on the table of the House a return to an Order of the House dated Tuesday, March 19th , oh motion of tb.e Honourable Member for St. George. MR. EVANS: Madam Speaker, I wlsh to table a return to an Order of the House No. 19 on the motion of the Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speake'r, I'd like to address a question to the Attorney-General following on the material that he gave us. Did I understand him correctly to say that there may be some more material still to come. MR.

LYON: Well, only if anything turns up. As I mentioned, Madam Speaker, the Hydro have told me as of this date they believe that they have everything, although only today there was one further letter I believed phoned in to them that had been misplaced at Grand Rapids. They believe that up to date they have everything within their custody under control. Subject to that, we believe that so far as is humanly possible we have the material here. MR. MOLGAT: They are continuing their search of their files, though, during the course of today and tomorrow, I take it. MR.

LYON: ... .. that•s what I guess -- that•s what I reported too, Madam Speaker. MR. MOLGAT: Well then is it the intention of the government to proceed with the com mittee meeting on Tuesday even though it's possible that there may be more material coming? MR .

LYON: I don1t believe it will affect the meeting of the committee on Tuesday, Madam Speaker, because as I've mentioned, any further material that may come would be of a nature that so far as I can see would not be too material to the matters under discussion, but as soon as it is available, if in fact any is found, it will be made available to the House immediately. MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood): ...... today we just received a transcript of the minutes of the meeting that was held on Public Utilities, and on page 2 it says 11Among those present.

" I'm a member of this committee and I was at that meeting, My name does not appear there. My colleague the Honourable Member from Brokenhead who is also a member of this committee -- he was there -- and his name does not appear there either. MR. LYON: Madam Speaker, I think there are some corrections to the transcript that we have noticed as well, and they can be corrected in committee. Maciam Speaker -- (interjec tion) -- while I'm on my feet, the House might wish to have a further progress report from the two utilities with respect to the severe weather conditions that we experienced over the past 48 hours.

First of all, with respect to Manitoba Hydro, and this report comes as late as one this afternoon. They report that all main supply circuits are now restored to service ex cept those in the vicinity of Darlingford and Miami. These two areas will have bulk service restored by this evening. Some crews are now working on the repair of individual services that were damaged. A recent survey indicates a total of approximately 700 poles were broken, with 170 of these being in the area centered around Morden. It is anticipated that full service will be restored to all towns and villages by this evening .

However, complete service restora tion to all individual farms will not be possible for another day or two in some cases. And with respect to the Manitoba Telephone System, their most recent survey indicates that there have been some 900 poles and 20, 000 wire breaks due to the storm. They have a further survey under way at the present time. Additional manpower has been moved to the areas affected, and further manpower will be arriving from northern and western points today.

It is anticipated that all locations affected, with the exception of Darlingford, Manitou, Miami, Ro land, Sperling and Stephenfield will have some service available by 9· p. m. tonight, and these locations by Saturday morning. MR. R. 0. LISSAMAN (Brandon): Before the Orders of the Day, I wonder if I might have Page 998 April 4th, 1963

(Mr. Lissaman cont 'd) .....• your permission and the consent of the House to inform members as to the details of the visit to the provincial Winter Fair at Brand on tom or row. First of all, I would like to explain to the members that we will not be using a train this year, due to the fact that coming at the end of the week members living west of Winnipeg will no doubt be driv ing their own cars, needing them over the week-end, so it left so few then that needed trans portation that it became impractical to think of using a train.

However, tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, there will be at least three cars, and I would hope if any Winnipeg members are taking their own cars they might drop' by at that time to pick up anyone who wished to go. As far as I can see from the questionnaire I sent around I believe that we can accommodate all the members who wish to go quite easily. · Now,arriving in Brandon, members should congregate at the Prince Edward Hotel at 1 o •clock -- 1 o'clock for a lunch provided by the members of the board of the Winter Fair.

Following the lunch the members will then go to the Fair for the afternoon, returning at 5 p, m. to the Prince Edward for dinner again as guests of the Manitoba Fair Board. And then in the evening, following the dinner, they will return for the evening performance at the Fair. Now, could I remind members again - 10 o'clock tomorrow morning there will be cars in front of the door of this building to take members who need transportation to Brandon. Thank you, Madam Speaker. MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, would like to direct a question to the Minister of .Public Works.

I hope he 111 take it-as notice and reply some time next week. Did the Department of .Public Works call for tenders for road construction during the month of October, or November or December last year, or January or February of this year, for work to be done in near proximity of Gypsumville or Cedar Lake, or in that general area? HON. WALTER WEIR (Minister of .Public Works)(Mlnnedosa): •.••. I'll accept it as notice. MR. FROESE: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister, the Attorney-General whether he could indicate when the amendment to the Time Sale Agreement Act will be distrib uted? MR.

LYON: I would imagine that will be in the House very shortly, Madam Speaker. MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Madam Speaker, I1d like to address a question to the Minister of Public Utilities to clarify a statement he made in connection with the Order for Return. Did I understand him to say that he wanted us to give certain documents back, and ••. MR. LYON: Madam Speaker, I suggested that we were tabling another copy of the orig inal tender, and that this copy that is now tabled in this Supplementary Return should be sub stituted for one that is already there.

The only difference in the two documents will be the date- (interjection) -- No. No. I gave that for the guidance of honourable members only. MR . GUTTORMSON.; Madam Speaker, I 1d like to address a question to the First Minister. In view of the fact that we are not sitting tomorrow, would he consider allowing the private members' bills on the Order Paper today to get second reading? MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I would be glad to do that if any of these private bills are subject to any time limitation. I've not heard of any reason why they should be given priority.

They have to do with the incorporation of a hospital and an employment fund, and a realty company and a mortgage company, and I dare say they could all wait until Tuesday. If there•s any particular reason for time and it must be done, it could be done. I can't understand how that should be though, because even if they get second reading they've got to go through the usual stages before they come back for approval. So that unless the honourable member has a particular reason for this I would suggest that we adhere to the Order of the Day.

But while l'm on my feet may I draw members• attention, Madam Speaker, to the notice of the call ing of the Committee on Privileges and Elections. This has been called for Thursday of next week. Now I think that we should just take that as indication that if we finish the debate on the resolution that is before us by that time, the committee will meet; but if for any reason the debate is not concluded before the time specified then I think we would be probably desirous of postponing the meeting of that committee until such time as the resolution is dealt with. MR .

GUTTORMsON: Madam Speaker, I have no knowledge that this bill has to be read. I just thought it might facilitate the House if it were proceeded with, but if he wishes to go April 4th, 1963 Page 999

(Mr. Gilttormson cont1d) ..••••• with it Tuesday I have no objection. MADAM SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 19 , The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN, Q. C. (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): ••.•• Madam Speaker 1 agiliil with your permission and leave of the House that this might stand for the corn patiion bill, MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on tre proposed motion of the Honour able the Minister of Labour.

The Honourable the Member for Pembina, MRS, GAiWLYNE MORRISON (Pembina): I wish to place myself on record, Madam speaker1 expressing my views in support of this bill, I cannot agree with those honourable mem bers who fear it is a backward step, This is a piece of legislation that I am sure is going to be greatly appreciated by many people living in the sm aller centres of our province -- and I am thiiikilig especially of my own constituency and those who are employed in the construction in dustry, the one industry in the province which the government or a government board sets wages by legislation, regardless of local conditions as to wage levels.

Let us take into consideration those sm aller centres where skilled labourers are few in number, where men are employed who are not classed as specialists in the field of construc tion, but where the law of supply and demand has in a normal way adjusted local wage scales satisfactory to all concerned, Then imagine a situation where it was found that owing to a slight. increase in population, the wages paid in the local building industry practically doubled over night, but with no increase in production to offset this increased cost.

Such actions would arti ficially increase local building costs to the detriment of the consumer and would certainly up set the local economy of the districts involved. Employers would find they could not pay these increased wages, the building industry would be slowed down, and labourers who had been hap pily employed would find thems elves suddenly out of employment. Surely this is not progress.

We all know that when the breadwinner is employed his family is better fed, the grocery stores do more business, there is a general feeling of well-being all around, I gre atly appreciated the views expressed by the Honourable Member for Brandon when he was speaking on this bill even although he is engaged in the construction business in the larger centre of Brandon and as he stated should in theory be opposing this bill, yet his understanding of conditions in the sm aller centres was such that he could see the need for making The Fair Wage Act mo re flexible.

It is my belief, Madam Speaker, that domestic economy is one of the most important issues in the government. I am pleased that this government has seen fit to take a second look at The Fair Wage Act and has seen fit to provide legislation which many people have been ask ing for. I believe it is a step in the right direction, and if allowed to come into force will be good for the economy of our rural areas, and therefore for Manitoba as a whole MR .

SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, sec onded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, that the debate be adjourned, Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, MADAM SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No, 50, The Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources . MR. WITNEY presented Bill No. 50,

an Act to amend The Mining Royal ty and Tax Act for second reading, Madam Speaker presented the motion, MR. WITNEY: Madam Speaker, this simply raises the Mining Royalty Tax from $5 ,0 0 to $1 0. 00 a year. MR.

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, it seems to me that we•re getting a series of these Acts this year whose only purpose re ally is to increase fees and while it's probable that this one can be carried by the people involved -- I don•t know how much is going to be involved here in the matter of net revenue or net cost; I just want to make the point, Madam Speaker, that the govern ment is proceeding on another round of fee increases. They did this after the election in 1958 and they claimed then that it wasn't taxing, that it was fees and that this is an entirely different process .

I' d like to make the point once again that any charge made by the government on the public is in the final analysis a tax, and that this is one more instance where the government is increasing taxes. Whether or not this will have a deterrent effect I am in no position to judge. ·It is interesting to note, howeve r, that the government who speaks so much about industrial expansion and development is on one hand talking about that and on the other hand proceeding to Page 1000 April 4th, 1963

(Mr. Molgat cont'd) •.••••• increase fees and taxes at every opportunity that it has. MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster): Madam Chairman, there is no objection to the increase in the bill except why not include another

section by increasing the Royalty Tax which would then be complete and you wouldn•t have to worry how to finance your estimates next year. MR . WITNEY: In this case I think that we are simply applying a tax on the mining com panies. The number of individuals that are going to. be affected by this tax are very small; and with relation to the increase in the. Royalty Tax itself I think that I explained my position during the estimates when I think the matter was debated quite thoroughly at that time.

As far as the individuals are concerned I would say that less than five percent are going to be affected by this increase. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Agriculture . HON. GEO RGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwoo d-lberville) presented Bill No. 61,

an Act to amend The Dairy Act, for seco nd reading. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. HUTTON: Madam Speaker, this provides for the form of the permits and for the determination of the fee to be charged to be established by regulation in respect to butter makers and cheese makers rather than as presently set out in the Act.

In the other categories the fees are established by regulation; there has been a revision, effective 1st of April; in order to re vise the fees for butter makers and cheese makers and make a comparable revision an amend ment to the Act is required and the provision is being made to have these fees established by regulation. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, this again appears to me to be one more Act brought in for the main purpose .of increasing fees.

As I look at the .original Act itself it seems to me that the government did have the authority before that to issue permits as it requests under (b) (1) -- I believe the Act did permit it -- but the real change here is the wording "and pre scribing the fee therefor. 11 Then when we go along to the other matters previously there appear ed to be a fixed fee of $1. 00, now the government is going to change this to say "the fee pre scribed in the regulations "; and similarly on the last item again "prescribing fees therefore ".

So it seem s, Madam Speaker, that this is again as I said on the bill that we just passed a mom ent ago, just mo re fee increases by this government and that the real purpose of this Act is nothing more than to accomplish this one item. MR . M. N. HRYHORC_ZUK, Q. C. (Ethelbert Plains): Madam Chairman, in looking over the Act I must admit very briefly and cursory, but it would appear to me that all these powers that are asked for with the exception of the fees are in the present Act. There's another point that occurs to me.

Would this particular !:!ill, or the provisions of this bill, affect all estab lished plants? Would it be necessa ry for those that are already in these businesses to go through the process of applying for a permit and paying the fees as well as the newly establish ed plants ? MR. HUTTON: If there are no other questions I- - Insofar as the provision in the Act respects the permits for dairy manufacturing plants , there is no intention of charging a fee. It was thought advisable when revising, or making this amendment, to provide for a fee.

The dairy plants now contribute seven cents per hundred pounds of butterfat towards the supervision --cream supervision costs and of course the government makes a grant of $25, 000 a year to wards these costs, but in view of the fact that the creamery operators are making this contri bution we have no intention of requiring an additional fee -- they're already making quite a contribution. However, they do apply each year for a permit now and this is only included in the Act to provide maybe for the day when the province will assume the costs of this cream grading entirely.

As long as the creameries are sharing in the costs of this cream grading there is no intention of leyying a fee. I might point out that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition has said that the only reason for amending this Act is to increase the fees. 1 said that when I spoke to the bill, that is a fact. The fees have not been looked at since 1945, that•s eighteen years ago, and I think that it's time that they were looked at and brought into line with present day costs in administering the provisions of The Dairy Act. I think that answers all the questions.

Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. April 4th, 1963 Page 1001

MR . ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seco nded by the Honourable Minis-ter of Agriculture and Conservation that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House re solve itself into a Commi ttee to consiper of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR . CHAIRMAN: Item 3 (

a) Livestock Branch. Passed. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I believe that yesterday when we com pleted the work of the commi ttee the. Minister had just given us a statement with regard to the livestock produc tion. I'm so rry that we haven •t got the copies of Hansard yet to check exactly his statement. I' d like to say this, though, in regard to the statement that he made; he gave us quite a long dissertation on the need to increase livestock production in Manitoba and indicated that we had been lagging behind the Province of Alberta and the Province of Saskatchewan, which is true.

But my honourable friend, how come the Minister only found this out now ? The govern ment has been in office for a number of years . The Minister has been Minister of Agriculture for some time. It1s certainly taken him quite a while to find out that the Province of Manitoba needs some new policies in the field of beef production, and some of the policies that he sug gested yesterday, and I repeat I haven't had a chance to check Hansard, some of those are certainly desirable policies.

But the policies that the government has been following for the past five years have in part at least been responsible for the lack of development of the live stock industry, and the most important one has been their land policy. The fact that until last week when the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources got up, this government had no laad policy except just do nothing.

This -- (interjection) -- Well, you inherited it; at least under the previous arrangement it was possible to buy the land or to obtain a long-term lease ; but for the past five years it's been impossible to obtain either one from this government, and it•s forced the livestock breeders in many parts of this province to simply have to go on year to year with temporary permits from this government.

I submit that this is forced in a number of areas in the province, particularly in what we normally term the ranching areas ; it has prevented some of these ranchers from expanding their herds as they could have done if they'd been in a position to plan on the long-term use of lands. And there's no one else to blame for this but this government, because five years ago they froze this land. They've been unable to make up their minds on this until last week when the Minister spoke. Well I• ll have more to say on land when we come to the resolution next week. But, Mr.

Chairman, I say it's late in the day for the Minister of Agriculture to finally decide that something's got to be done in the live stock business. Manitoba's herds have not been expanding and this hasn't just happened since the election on the 14th of December. This situation has existed for some years and the Min ister should have been on top of it. Now, let•s go on then to the question of quality. I think yesterday when speaking he was mainly speaking about quantity.

I didn't notice him -- and I repeat I havenrt been able to check Hansard -- but I don't think he was speaking quite as much about quality, although he did men tion performance testing and that mo re scales would be available, and I agree with this pro gram because as I had pointed out to the Minister last year, Manitoba was lagging behind the other provinces in performance testing. Both Saskatchewan and Alberta were far ahead of us in the number of herds under tests and the number of animals in total in these herds under tests; so it's high time that the Minister proceeded with this as well.

One aspect though, Mr. Chairman, that I had asked the Minister about and I don't really feel that he gave me a sufficient answer was the ending of the Sire Purchase Policy. He said it was a question of priori�es, I believe, and what were you going to do? Well it seems to me that in many areas of the province the Sire Purchase policy still has a big job to do because we are still getting too much low grade cattle on our markets; and I think again, the Province of Manitoba is in the dubious position of having a larger number of low grade cattle than either Saskatchewan or Alberta.

I know that one explanation for this is that we probably have mo re dairy production or mixed herds than these provinces, but even that being taken into considera tion, Mr. Chairman, it is still true that there are too many herds of mixed cattle in the prov ince who could be better beef herds if they had better sires. I think that the Fair program helps in getting people to see the benefits of good cattle. I'm convinced that the livestock auction, the Page 1002 April 4th, 1963

(Mr. Molgat cont•d) ••••• type that we have established in my own constituency, and were sub sequently established in PipeStone and Ashern, have contributed a great deal to the interest in better cattle because the ranchers saw there when those cattle were sold exactly what better cattle will do in dollar s and cents for them. This is even more interesting and important to them than the first prize at the fairs, because _this is the final reason for their being in the cattle business and that's to make money out of it.

Now, in many of these areas, we still require better sires than what we have now and I don't see why the Minister has cut out this program completely. It seems to me that there's still work to be done in many areas of the province in improving the quality of our herds and the first step in improvement is to have a good sire in the herd. MR . ARTHUR WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Chairman, I feel that listening this last few days that I've had the short course and I feel qualified to say something on this item.

I was pleased to note, Mr, Chairman, that in the Throne Speech mention was made that the govern ment will consider appointing an official provincial veterinarian. This makes it nice for me because I won't have to ask my perennial question as to when the government is going to appoint an official provincial veterinarian, because the Honourable Minister used to skate around this question. We were led to believe that Doctor Isa was the official veterinarian so I1m very pleas ed to know that they contemplate this promotion. I was disappointed though, Mr.

Chairman, in looking at the Throne Speech that no men tion was made of a Veterinary College for the we.sternprovinces, because we hear much today about the need for increasing our livestock industry. We read about it in COMEF and much has been said this last few days so that it seems to me that it is very consistent at this time to look at this question of whether or not we should have a veterinary college for the prairie pro vinces. I think it's imperative that it be built soon. In fact, Mr. Chairman, the Farmers' union as far .back as 1960 were asking for the establishment of a veterinary college .

In 1961, the college at Guelph notified the prairie provinces that they would no longer be able to accomm odate students from the western provinces , and I believe at that time that through co-operation the western provinces agreed that they would get together to try to esta blish one in the west. I believe that three of the western provinces agreed. They agreed to a 50 percent share by the Federal Government, but Alberta would not go along with this -- they, I believe, held out for 75 percent. This was prejudicial to the negotiations because the Federal Government would not accept that.

Since then I believe the Minister of Agriculture for Saskat chewan has asked the Federal Government to reconsider this matter with the result that the Federal Government have now agreed to pay 25 percent of the capital cost, and 25 percent of the operating cost of this proposed veterinary college. Now what is this government going to do? Are they going to go along with this new proposal. Because I submit, Mr.

Chairman, that it is not sufficient to take money from the Horned Cattle Fund for research for in the Department of Agriculture, and I have no objection to them raising this fund for this purpose, but it's too sma ll to be of any importance . I notice, Mr. Chairman , in the budget speech in Saskatchewan this year, and I would like to, because mention is made of this very important thing, I would like to read from it and I quote, and this is Mr. Brockelbank, the Provincial Treasurer, spe aking: "To serve the expanding livestock industry a veterinary college is es sential in western Canada.

On account of central location in the veterinary research laboratory at Saskatoon we believe that Saskat chewan is the appropriate place for such a college. However, this is not a decision which the government alone should make. It's a matter which must first be decided by the Universities of western Canada, and also by the governments concerned. We hope it will be built here.

Therefore, we in the government of Saskatchewan want to make clear our willingness to con tribute toward the construction of a veterinary college as a part of our university; and for that reason honourable members will be asked to vote a special grant of $1 million to the uni versity to be used for this purpose if and when the following conditions are met; First, the University senate and board of governors would have to decide if they want a veterinary col lege in the university; and second the other western universities should agree that Saskat chewan is the appropriate place for the college, and the participating govermre nts should agree to contribute their fair share towards its operation.

And third, the Government of Canada, will be expected to confirm its offer to contribute toward the cost of constructing and April 4th, 1963 Page 1003

(Mr. Wright, cont'd) •••.• operating the college. " The other day, Mr. Chairman, at the special comm ittee on public utilities we heard of co-operation, and in mentioning Saskatchewan today it is with this spirit in mind, the spirit of co-operation. We were told there that the development of the Grand Rapids plant was made possible by the co -operation of our sister provinces, by keeping a thermal plant going there a little longer to enable us here in Manitoba to accomplish this wonderful power plant at Grand Rapids.

And I would like to end the last statement here by the provincial treasurer in Saskat chewan where he says that: "We hope that this project does proceed. The growth of the live stock industry demands it, Mr. Speaker, and we believe that there exists among the western provinces the kind of goodwill which will lead to an early decision. " I hope, Mr.

Chairman, that that co-operation will prevail and that this government will see fit - - I was hoping to see it at this sess ion of the Legisla ture -- to make some tangible offer, some tangible contribution to the establishment of this much needed veterinary college here in the western provinces. MR. LEONARD BARKAMAN (Carillon): Mr. Chairman, on Bang's disease I wonder if the Honourable Minister would be good enough to give us some information as how the program over all Manitoba is progressing.

There still seems to be quite a bit of concern in some areas and I wonder if the Honourable Minister could give us a report on that? MR. HUTTON: •.•.•...• Mr. Chairman. MR. BARKMAN: What program did you say? On eradication of Bang's Disease . I think it's on page 48. You see that there is a decrease of about 11 percent in the grants on calves, but I don't see anything mo re on cattle. . • • • . • continued on next page. Page 1004 April 4th, 1963

MR. HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to get in any more argumenls than I have to with the Opposition, but they make it awfully difficult, Mr. Chairman; they make it awfully difficult.

When they say that -- when the Leader of the Opposition says that the present govern ment is to blame for the tag in the growth of the cattle industry in Manitoba, and he says it's our lack of policy, well I admit that we haven't built our house completely, but you build a house brick by brick, and there are still a lot of things to be done, and there'll be much still -- even after this program 'we've introduced there's still much to be done . I expect next year there will be other things. Five years from now there'll still be things that need to be done.

How ever, I suppose that maybe we should have had an even more comprehensive progr am than we introduced four years ago. I suppose one could say it could have been possible . However, I would suggest to the committee that the program in agriculture in Manitoba has shown a phe nomenal growth.

I haven't the estimates here before me, but I think all you have to do is to compare the monies that have been expended and the breadth of the program as it has grown in the past four years, to indicate if there's any blame to be attached for the lack of growth in the cattle industry, blame that can be attached to any government.

Cer tainly with all the evidence in terms of programs and in terms of J;>Ublic monies expended on agriculture then that blame must surely go right back to his own doorstep, because he might have been just as eloquent as the peop le's represe ntative to his own Party when they were holding the reins in government as he was a few minutes ago in chastening this government for its lack of leadership in this �w. . As long ago as four years ago, we guaranteed funds to the University to enable them to es tablish an animal science building, and it is true that it has only come to comple tion in 19 62.

It is true that their res earch program is just ge tting organized at the present time, but if any thing is going to be done about the tardiness of that, I'm sure he must accept the responsibility, he and his Party, because it wasn't this government that allowed the Unive rsity or the Faculty of Agriculture to be relegated. to the bull pen at the Unive rsity campus . That is something he'll have to take the res ponsibility for. We've been trying to put agriculture back in a position that it's entitled to, but we'd waste a lot of time following that line of thought.

The Leader of the Opposition feels that we're putting too much emphasis on quantity and not enough on quality. Well I suggest to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that one of the problems with quality in Manitoba has to do with quantity. It's directly related to the qups tion of quantity. As I pointed out yesterday, one of the reasons why our cattle industry has lagged behind was as a result of the pattern of settlement and the patterns of production that arose out of that settlement; the fact that we had The Homestead Act in quarter-sect ion farms, and these provided for small herds .

And it might be of interest to this committee to be brought up-to-date on the size of the average herd in Manitoba. They're extremely small, and when you have a very small herd you generally don't place the same economic importance upon that herd as you do if you have a large one -- that is , it will not even be possible economic ally for you to enter upon a production program that will result in top quality, because if you divide the cost of a very expensive sire into a very small herd, the per unit cost of production. in respect to that sire is very high, and the same goes for other measures .

It's a fact, also, that here in Manitoba -- and the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition mentioned it -- we have a lot of mixed farms with mixed herds, and with all due respect to some of the good gentleman farmers in Manitoba who keep dual purpose cattle, it's pretty hard to have a topnotch dairy cow and a topnotch beef cow all in one.

Those people who do a reason able job of developing dual purpose cattle by cultivating breeds that have been select ed for this purpose, do a pretty good job, but when you try to take a Holstein cow and cross her with a Hereford sire and then introduce a few more lines in an effort to keep your cream checked up, get as much as you can for the cat, you end up invariably with less in the cream can, less for the cat. And this is what has, to a large extent, held back our progre ss in respect to quality.

In 1961, cattle all ages, all farms reported, 33, 314 farms had cattle; 98 percent, or all but - let's see, a little over 500 of these farms -- had less than 177 animals -- yes, had less than 122 animals in total. Now to have a herd of 122 animals all you need to have in June -- that is, these statistics were taken iD. June -- all you need to have is about 50 cows to have a herd of 122 -- 50 to 60 cows; and only two percent of the people in Manitoba that keep cattle had herds April 4th, 1963 Page 1005

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) •••.• of over, say, 50 cows. All the rest were much less. The great bulk of the farms -- I haven't got this in statistics but let's see, about 26, 000 of these farms had less than 47 head of cattle on their farm in June. Now it's this fact that we've got these sm all herds where they're trying to do two jobs in one -- why, there were 9, 000 farms in Manitoba that had between 18 and 32 head, all told. There were some 4, 000 farms that had three to seven animals in total.

Now, I submit to this Commi ttee that it wouldn't mat ter what kind of a purebred sire purchase policy you had, you'd have to almost give a man a purebread sire if he's going to have a herd of 10 or 15 cows . It just doesn't pay him, with a very small herd, unless he's in purebred stock, to carry a very expensive sire for his herd. The greatest hope for that man is in artificial insemination, and the numbers of animals , of cows, bred by artificial insemina tion in Manitoba has grown from 5, 000 about the middle fifties to 52, 000 this past year, so that program is growing by leaps and bounds.

It's ten times -- and it is designed to meet the needs of the smaller operator. I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that we need more professionalism in our cattle -- in our approach to raising cattle in Manitoba, and we're not going to get it unle ss we . get larger herds, unle ss people rely more on their cattle herds for their income than they have in the past, and I believe that if we can encourage and help people -- those who are in terested -- and build up their herds a little larger, that they will treat that asset as something valuable; they will develop it; they will spend money on their purebred sires, and it will pay them to do so, and that it will be treated more as an important segment of their income than it has hitherto .

There has been a tendency, you know, to just treat that livestock aspect on the farm as pin money, or extra money, and to not give it the prominence in the plannin g of ·the farm operation that they have given mainly to their field operations . But this is a matter of growing into something -- it's a matter of seeing the advantages, and it takes a little time , and I think that our programs that we are embarking upon will tend to encourage this. A veterinary college in the west.

Well, I think that you will recognize that the establish ment of a veterinary college is a very cos tly thing, first in terms of establishment and also in terms of operating. I think all of us would be glad to see one established in western Canada, but I would draw your attention to the fact the peculiar position that Manitoba finds itself in. Hitherto we have scholarshipped our veterinary students to Ontario , to Guelph, or St. Hya cinthe in Quebec, and this has proven to be a fairly satisfactory arrangement.

It's true that the college at Guelph is becoming overcrowded and that we are going to have to seek further facilities here in Canada for training veterinarians . However, even if we do establish a col lege in the west, Manitoba students would still have to travel away from home to attend that college and at some cost. Probably if it were established in Alberta they'd be travelling as far to Edmonton as they would be to Guelph.

If it were established at Saskatoon it would be somewhat closer, but still they'd be faced with extra costs , and so we would still need to scholarship our veterinary students , whether they go to the existing colleges in the east or whether they go west, and I think Manitoba should reserve its pos ition on this question of the establishment of a college, because we have to consider whether we want to take capital funds and inv est them in a central college in some place in the prairies, or whether we should pay on a per capita basis -- make our contribution on a per capita basis into any college that may be established.

I think that it's out of the question for Manitoba to entertain the idea of having a veterinary college established here in this province. The costs involved are large, extremely large; the operating costs are extremely large. You can't have everything, and I don't think it would pay for every province to have a college . British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba are interested in having these facilities available some place in the west. Logi cally it should be central, somewhat centralized to the students coming from Manitoba right through to B. C.

I can't see British Columbia giving very much support to the idea of a college established here. If they're going to send them this far, they might as well send them a little farther. One further point I want to raise, however. It is my hope that now that we have this won derful facility for animal science at the university campus , that it would be possible that when this veterinary college is built in the west, that we can still co-operate, that our young people who want to take veterinary medicine can take their first two years here, and only have to go away for three years.

Now, this would be a real benefit to our young people, because they Page 1006 April 4th, 1963

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) •• ••• could get their feet well underneath them and get a good grounding in it right here at home in Manitoba, and then they could go on and take their clinical work in the veterinary college. And it is my hope that an arrangement like this could be reached. First of all, it's very good for our students• sake. It gives them a maximum opportunity of getting into this profession . But secondly, I believe that it would cut down on the costs of a central veterinary college. Certainly it would cut down the costs for our students who wanted to attend such a central coll ege.

I think that sooner or later, and probably sooner, we're going to have to have a veterinary college here in the west. There is a comm ittee of Ministers, of Provincial Ministers, and their representatives, who have been negotiating with the Federal Minister -- oh, it's about a year and a half now -- on this subject of location, the terms of participation on the part of the Federal Government and in respect of provincial governments; and I'm not aware that any final decisions have been arrived at. I think that they are far from final.

From what the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks has said, Saskatchewan is making a strong bid for the location of the college at Saskatoon . I know that Alberta is extremely interested. I know that B. C. is interested in seeing it es tablished in the west. We want to make sure -- we would like to make certain that our young people who are interested in studying veterinary medicine have an opportunity to do so. But it is a large undertaking and one that deserves and is getting serious consideration.

And I can't indicate to you on what basis we would negotiate, except that I say on the one hand we might invest capitaUn a western college, or on the other hand - and a procedure that I lean to at the present time -- is that we would make our contribution on a per capita basis, as our students in Manitoba make use of the facilities which might be built. The Bang' s Disease control program is moving ahead. I think I have enough to date to report on it here. The -- oh, I see -- the honourable member has compared 19 5, 000 with 13 1, 000 . Well, there wasn't 13 1, 000.

The 19 5, 000 shown in last year's estimates included monies, not only to cover .. ..•. vaccination, but also the Sire Purchase Policies . And the 13 1, 000 that is shown for Bang's Disease control, or ... •••• . vaccinations, which it is, re presents an increase in monies appropriated for this vaccination program. During the past year, the Health of Animals Division of Canada's Department of Agricul ture completed the first general test of all cattle herds in Manitoba. On January 1, 1963 , the Health of Animals Division had blood-tested 779, 511 cattle in herds totalling 1, 000, 05 1 calves.

They removed 21, 230 reactives from 6, 391 infected herds, and paid co mpensation amounting to $1, 463 ,4 11. 00. Of the 115 Brucellosis control areas in Manitoba, 81 are now certified as Brucellosis free for three years from the date of certification. Twelve are being rejected for recertifica tion, and 22 did not certify and are to be retested. During the period April 1, 1962 to Febru ary 1, 1963, 111, 533 cattle have been inspected, 121, 373 blood samples taken, and 3, 633 re actors removed from 1,2 �1 infected herds; $14 9, 825 in com pensation was paid out.

In addition to neces sary testing and retesting of herds, the Brucellosis ring test is being used on all cream and milk samples in the spring and the fall. So far, 68 reactors in 39 in fected herds have indicated the necessity for retesting in these herds. Spot tagging on market beef cows is also done, and animals tagged are tested at time of slaughter to give an indication of herds requiring re-tags . MR. J. P. TANCHAK (Emerson): .•••.••.•. the Minister's encouraging production of beef cattle in the Province of Manitoba.

He knows better than I do -- he's the Minister of Agriculture and I'm just a backbencher, and on top of that, in Opposition -- so I gu ess I must accept his word that it is absolutely neces sary, but I still say supply and demand and the good business intuition of our farmer, of all our farmers, is the .•.••..• towards increased pro duction, what is neces sary and advisable. He deems that it is necessa ry, the Minister, and then the province is encouraging him . But I wonder how much Ottawa is contributing towards good business relations in this matter with our friends the Americans .

It seems to me that Ottawa's comm itting a blunder, and I would go even so far as to say a "Diefen-blunde r", be cause -- and I know what I'm saying -- because I don't think that the attitudes the Federal politicians are taking as far as our friends are concerned across the border is the right thing to do. We know that our markets depend quite a bit on exports to the United States. I think that the United States market, as I've indicated right here, acted as an effective floor price as April 4th, 1963 Page 1007

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd) .. ••. far as our beef exports are concerned. And I know that presently there's a concentrated effort being made across the line by some cattle producers to halt the flow of Canadian cattle into the United States. Probably they cannot stop it altogether, but that feeling does persist. In fact there was even briefs presented to the State of Minnesota, to the .Minister of Agriculture of the State of Minne sota, asking the State to do something about it.

I had the privilege of speaking to a few of these gentlemen from across the line -- we're close neighbors there -- and they take the attitude, they say, "W e buy your pulp, we buy your zinc , we buy your cattle -- why don't you like us ? If you don't like us, we don't like you. " So I think that this attitude, this anti-A mericanism isn't condusive to good relations with our Ameri can friends.

I'm happy to note that in 196 1 there was an increase of 46 percent over the previous year, export of cattle, and I think it would do well for Manitoba -- I'm not blaming the Minister; he's doing all he can -- to cont inue this trend. I wonder what would happen to our beef cattle if all of a sudden the United States decided that they'd had enough of Manitoba cattle, and didn't buy any more ?

I'm afraid that our cattle prices would drop drastically , because they do -- they're a nice big market -- go back to the small price, and I think that it would be in the interests of all to cult ivate good relations with our American friends as far as this busine:'"' and in all business is concerned. I wonder what effect -- this is the question I'd like to ask -- if United States decided that they did not care to import our cattle any more, what effect would this have on the Canadian beef prices ? I'll talk about turkeys later . MR . A.

VIELFAURE (La Verendrye): On 3(a)(4) -G rants to Herd Improvement Asso ciations, I wonder if the Honourable Minis ter would tell us how many associ ations are function ing in the province, and are the grants even to these associat ions ? I'm not asking this question as a note of criticism because I have noticed the improvements made through these associations , and I think they have contributed very much to the improvement of herds. But I would like to know how many are in operation, and are the grants even to all of them ? MR. N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr.

Chairman, under the Bang's Disease program , are all of the tests made by qualified veterinarians, and if so , has the program been delayed to any degree by a shortage of qualified vets ? And is this the department that we might dis cuss grants to agricultural fairs? Would it come under this ? Not here, eh? MR. HUTTON: The Herd Improvement Assoc iations get an annual grant, $1, 800 -- the same to every one . They're doing a good job. I wasn't aware of any -- the honourable member suggested there was some criticism of the ...... . MR.

VIE LFAURE: •••... the question with a note of criticis m, because I believe very much ..•.... MR . HUTTON: Oh, oh, ...... with all the arguing -- They're doing a good job, and they each get an annual grant to help them with the adminis tration of the program . It's an equal . . • • . • • It is a common grant to all of them. I believe that the veterinarians do use technicians -- qualified technicians -- in taking some of these tests . I wouldn't want to answer that categorically but I believe that they do use trained personnel, trained to do this particular work.

As far as I know, although they have been pressed somewhat -- the Health of Animal Unit has been pressed somewhat -- by a chronic shortage of veterinarians , I don't think that it has in terfered too much in their program . What they do is shift according to the priority of their work, they do shift their personnel around somewhat to try and get certain jobs done, but that's a matter of their own internal policy and I don't like to com ment too much on matters which are not under my jurisdiction. I enjoyed the com ments of the friendly undertaker from Emerson.

He would have our hopes for the cattle industry buried with all sorts of hypothetical situations that might arise. The Honourable Member for Lakeside made a statement in here the other night, that most people outside of this Chamber don't pay very much attention to what the politicians say, and I think if that applies to us it applies equally to what the politicians in the other jurisdictions are saying, and I have found that down in the United States they aren't very much aware or con cerned about our domestic spats up here.

As a matter of fact, an acquaintance of mine just returned and I asked him what they were saying and he said he didn't know; they weren't say ing anything. There was nothirg in the newspaper; you wouldn't even know there was an elec tion going on up here in Canada; and even if they did know I don •t think that you can fool the Page 1008 April 4th, 1963

(Mr. Hutton, cont1d) .•.•• people of the United States or the people of Canada about the "aver age Joe" either here or down there. We don't, either of us, have horns . We have a very close tie and I don't think that they're going to pay too much attention. I'd like to point out to the Honourable Member from Emerson that far from being offended by our cattle , the feeders in the USA prefer Canadian cattle . They like our Canadian cattle for some reason or other; maybe it's because of our climat e and our range conditions and so forth.

They find that our cattle show superior gain and response in the feed lot, and I have heard this from more than one source , that they will even pay a premium to get our Canadian cattle; so I don't think that these possibilities that the Honourable Member for Emerson has drawn to our attention are very. probable. I think that the demand outlook for beef in North American would indicate a growing demand for Canadian feeder cattle rather than the fact that we are going to be cut off.

One of the problems in encoura ging the cattle finishing industry in Manitoba has been the tre mendous demand for our feeder cattle and the fact that our farmers who are interested in finishing cattle have had to co mpete with the buyers from the USA and from eastern Canada, and as a result there has been an unfavourable margin for the feeder. It's been very good for the primary producer but it hasn't been equally good for the man who is engaged in finishing cattle .

A little earlier he said that we hadn't done very much in the last few years, and as just an afterthought I have some figures here which indicate that there has been a marked improve ment in the last four years, not only in the quantity of cattle being finished in Manitoba, but also in the quality of those cattle that are marketed, and quite a marked improvement. Maybe I can find the figures here. Yes, here they are right at hand. Even in 19 61, in spite of the drought conditions , there was a 25 percent increase in the numbers of cattle finished in Mani toba.

In 1958 the inward movement of cattle -- that is , cattle going from the market back to the farm, in Manitoba, was 11, 000 head. In 1960 it was 22, 000 head and in 1962 it was 26, 000 head. So that's quite a sizeable increase. MR . TANCHAK: How many thousand did you say? MR . HUTTON: 26, 000 in 1962 . In 1958 it was 11 , 000. In 1962 it had grown to 26, 000, so that's quite a remarkable increase. On the question of quality. _] have it here. In 1959, 53 percent of the heifers and steers sold graded "good" and ·nchoice" .

In 1961 it was up to 60 percent; in 1962 it was up to 64 percent; so that we have made some quite remarkable pro gress ; but the reason I speak as I do about the need for an all-out effort here is that I am not satisfied, the government is not satisfied, the Department is not satisfied, with this kind of an improvement. We want even more improvement, and that is the reason why we are moving on this program, and I think that -- I hope that our farmers will not take any cognizance of these ghost stories about what may happen if the United States closes its border.

We know what would happen if the United States ever closed its border to our cattle .

We had that ex perience when we had hoof and mouth disease here in Manitoba and it's disaster -- pure disas ter; but I would trust that aside from such a circums tance as that -- and Heaven save us from another experience of that kind -- but aside from som ething that was associated with the health of animals , and this is less likely today because of the steps that are being taken to try and make sure that Manitoba's and Canada's cattle are acceptable anywhere -- I would say aside from such an instanc e, I think that we must not scare ourselves with the thought that our trade relations with the United States are going to deteriorate to the point that there is going to be an impregnable wall built between us .

MR . M. G. SMERCHANSKI (Burrows) : I think that the Honourable Minister rather mis stated the exact facts concerning the Department of Agriculture at the University, and I felt that it would be a source of information to this Committee to realize that I don't think that this government could particularly claim all the benefits inasmu ch as his remark that the previous government didn't do very much.

The fact of the matter lies that in 1952 and 153 this was realized by the University administration, and at that time we were very fortunate in getting to come to Manitoba Dean Weir, who has done an excellent job, and of course our President, Dr. Saunderson, and I think that these two individuals have done a tremendous lot in the De partment of Agriculture, and this was, of course , instituted by the previous government and I thought I'd just merely state this for the record. MR . MOLGAT: •••• ••.•• indicated, I believe, in reply to the question asked by the April 4th, 1963 Page 1009

(Mr. Molgat, cont1d) ..•.• Member for Gladstone, that the veterinarians were using techni cians to do the Bang's testing. I wonder if the Minister could tell me where I will find, either in the Act or in regulations, the rules that apply to this. I'm under the impression that the form that the vets must sign is that the injection was done by a qualified veterinarian, and I would like to follow this up. Could the Minister give me the information on that? . MR. HUTTON: Id idn' t. make a categorical statement. I said I wasn't sure, but I was under that impression. Maybe I'm wrong. MR.

MOLGAT: Could the Minister indicate to me where I will find the rules and regu lations in this regard? What are the rules? Could you bring those in to us ? MR . HUTTON: I could probably get .them for you but I think that they would be equally available to you from the Health of Animals Branch. In respect to testing now -- this isn't vaccination; this is testing. MR . MOLGAT: Well, I'm referring to the provincial program. MR . HUTTON: Oh, oh -- well I understood the Honourable Member for Gladstone to be referring to the Health of Animals program of testing for reactors.

In the case of vaccinations it's the veterinarian. MR . MOLGA T: It must be a veterinarian in all cases? MR . HUTTON: To my knowledge, yes. MR . MOLGAT: And is that in the Act then? Could the Minister indicate to me where I will find the -- either in the Act or is it in regulations? MR. HUTTON: I would have to check on that. If you want me to I will do so .. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated that one of the problems in quality in Manitoba was the sm all herds, and I agree with him. This is true.

It's peculiar to the Province of Manitoba that our livestock herds, the bulk of the livestock coming on the mar ket, I should say, do come from small herds. Surprising.

Doesn't this indicate, though, all the more need for an assistance in the matter of the purchase of good herd sires, because the very fact that the herds are in general sma ll, means that the owner by and large is not in a position to get a good bull himself, and maybe he hasn't got quite as much incentive as the Minister indicated, because of the fact that it isn' t such an important part of his farming opera tion, so rather than go along the lines the Minister is taking, and say, well we can't do this, I think it only indicates all the more need for a sire policy.

Coming on to what we were discussing earlier, Mr. Chairman, with regards to the Lands Branch, the Minister said that this wasn't a factor. I would like him to just answer me and very briefly; is it not true that for the past five years there's been no policy for the sale and the long-term lease of land in Manit oba? MR . HUTTON: No, this is not true. There was-a disuse of the long-term leasing be cause of the fact that it was cheaper to take land on an annual basis than it was to take a long- . term lease, and so the farmer, or the rancher, elected to take his lease on an annual basis. Now this is a fact.

There was a temporary ban put on the sale of local government district lands, but that was released and sales were made provided they passed the approval of the Land Utilization Board. Now, it's true that these long-term leases fell into disuse and I be lieve there are only 89, if I recall correctly, but this was a voluntary election on the part of the rancher. It wasn't because he couldn't get them, he didn't want them, because it would cost him more money. MR. MOLGAT: I disagree with the Minister, Mr. Chairman, because I know of some farmers who had long-term leases and they didn't get them renewed.

They only had them from year to year. If my honourable friend would check with some of the members of his caucus he would find that this is true, because there are some me mbers of his caucus who had the same problem as I have had in my constituency in this regard. The facts are simply these, that the government did not renew the old existing ten-year leases. They only gave them out on a year-to-year basis, and this did definitely affect people who wanted to expand their pro duction. Mr. Chairman, under this livestock production.

It seems to me that this is the time to get a report from the Livestock Marketing Committee. We attempted to get one earlier when the resolution was presented to the House re-establishing this commi ttee. It was indicated to us then the com mittee did not exist, therefore we couldn't get a report. I think we should now / Page 1010 April 4th, 1963

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) .• ••. obtain a report on the ac tivities of the com mittee and exactly what has been accomp lished, what their program is for the next year, when we may expect their final report. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I would be interested in finding out from the Minister the size of the largest tract that is leased to an individual and secondly, the average size of tracts that are being leased. I would assume that you would have that information somewhere. MR. HUTTON: I'm sorry I haven't. You're asking the wrong Minister.

The Minister of Mines and Resources is the man who can give you those answers on leasing. There is con sultation between the departments on matters of policy because it affects our agricultural in dustry, but in the administration of the affairs they fall under the Minister of Mines and Re sources. I can tell you about maximums. The lease policy provides for a maximum lease that will carry 500 animal s units.

Now one animal unit is equal to a mature cow, yearlings are less, a calf is equal to one-t hird -- it takes three calves to make an animal unit; and that is the maximum size unit that viould be available to any individual in Manitoba. On the question, Mr. Chairman, again , of breeding and the sire purchase policy, the government in the past five years has assisted in the purchase of a larger number annually than any previous government had. As a matter of fact, in one year, even in this last year, we assisted in the purchase of 1, 444 pure-bred sires.

Now, this doesn't necessa rily mean, however, that the expenditure of these kinds of funds are doing the job that we're supposed to be doing. It indicates, as I said at the outset, that the breeder appreciates this and the pur chaser appreciates this, but it doesn't necessa rily follow that because there is such widespread use of this, that the purpose for which it was intended - that it's still serving the purpose for which it was intended. In the first instance it was, intended to encourage and to teach people by demonstration the value of a pure-bred sire.

Wha t this widespread use of this policy indicates to us , is that the job has been done. The job has been done. That the next step, the next step -- and reme mber that along with this policy, there has been this tremendous increase in the use of artificial insemination. It's grown from -- well it started back in 1947 , and by 1955 they were only breeding 5, 000 cows by artificial insemination, in eight years; but when frozen semen came into use it has grown now to the point where this past year 52, 000 animals were bred in this manner, and this indicates that we've got this measure of education.

Now, we believe that one of the reasons why -- there are problem areas, where'l:he people haven't accepted this guidance, but I think that we could have this policy for the next ten years and we're not going to get to these people with that kind of a policy. A good pure bred sire will cost anywhere from $400 and up, and until you help these people to get them selves a unit that prompts them to make this kind of an investment, they're not going to invest $400 or $500 in a pure-bred sire.

What we're hoping is that by making it possible for them to develop their herd, to increase it in size -- reme mbering that we're going to be working closely with them -- that this wil� prompt them to make that investment. Frankly, as a farmer, if I had ten cows , I wouldn't pay that kind of money. I would avail myself of artificial insemina tion. You can't afford to pay that kind of money for a very small herd, and our purchase policy didn't help them.

It helped the man who had an economic sized herd, where it paid him to purchase an animal, but of course I probably can argue here all day and it won't change my honourable friend's mind. On the question of the report of the Livestock Com mittee on Marketing. I still say it isn't my position to report on that. The com mittee has been reconstituted. They are meeting, I expect, at the present time .

I think in due course when he's prepared, the chairman will re port to the House, give a report to the com mittee on the progress that they've made and what they intend to do, and so I don't feel that it's my position to comm ent on that at the present time. I'd just say to the Honourable Member for Burrows that he is absolutely right about the acquisition by the University of such able people as Dr. Saunderson and Dean Weir. The pro gram was started before this government was responsible for the funds. You got the person nel and we provided the funds .

I think that the monies that were made available made it pos sible for men like Dr. Saunderson and Dean Weir to do the kini of a tremendous job that they were capable of doing, and the monies have proved to be a· wonderful investment entrusted to their care. MR. SCHREYER: I got the impression from the Minister's remarks that the artificial April 4th, 1963 Page 1011

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd) .•... insemination program had levelled off, it's not increasing. Is this in fact the case? · MR. HUTTON: No, it's growing by leaps and bounds. MR . VIELFAURE: Mr. Chairman, I did not get the answer on the number of herd im provement associations functioning right now, and could I ask one further question? Can these associations be formed among cream shippers as well ? I'm aware of those -- the ones I'm aware of are among fluid milk shippers . Can they be formed among cream shippers? MR. HUTTON: No. We have another program.

The dairy herd improvement associa tions are mainly in the Winni peg Milk Shed, and there is another prog ram, the owner sampler cow testing program, designed to supplement existing dairy herd milk testing program and enable commer cial dairy farmers in all parts of Manitoba to obtain records of milk and butter fat production on cows in the herd. The farmer weighs miJk once per month, morning and night, records the weight, transfers a sample of milk to a container which, with a number of other samples, is shipped to the lab at 1018 Norquay Building , where the butterfat test is madf!l.

The last.t est mission co mputes and records the amount of butterfat in milk produced for the month, and with these figures estimates the amount of grain that should be fed to the cow on the basis of milk and butterfat produced. The grain estimate is a guide to the farmer in working out the grain ration per cow. As of today, 87 herds are on test with a total of 1, 764 cows on production. Of the pro ducers associated with this program, 48 are fluid milk shippers, two sell milk for manufac- . turing, 37 are cream shippers. MR . BARKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm sorry to hold up the .••.. but I would like to ask the Honourable Minister one more question. On the Veterinarys , has he any idea as to how many students do normally apply in Manitoba a year, or for that matter also western Canada? MR . HUTTON: I don't have that information at hand. I could probably get it for him over the supper hour . MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I agree with the Minister that the report on the Live stock Marketing Commi ttee should not come from him as such -- he isn't in a sense directly associated with it.

However, it seems to me that under Livestock Branch is the proper time to get a report from the Chairman, and I see he is now in his seat. And I think that the Com mittee should have a progress report on the Livestock Marketing Com mittee at this time . MR . H. P. SHE WMAN (Morris): Mr. Chairman, in reply to the Leader of the Opposi tion. I would only be too happy to be able to give him a report today; and since this com mit tee has been established by the House, we've held one meeting.

We have this shop set up as of Monday, and we are working on the reports now, and if I was to say anything about the re port that we intend to present to the House, I think I would be doing what was wrong. Before the report is tabled in the House it will be the duty of the members of this com mittee to have time to study the report. ' · MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, is it the intention then to obtain the final report of the Comm ittee at this Session of the Legislature ? MR . SHE WMAN: That will depend entirely upon the Commi ttee as a Whole. MR . MOLGAT: Has the Commi ttee completed its investigations?

I understand that they went to the United States last year. Are they any other meetings to be held? Are there representations to be heard from any others , or is it simply a question of the com mittee writing the report? MR. SHEW MAN: That will depend entirely upon the Com mittee again . MR . SHOEMAKER: I asked my honourable friend a short time ago whether this was the item that we might discuss grants to agricultural fairs, and he nodded in the negative. Now, under what item do we find that? MR . HUTTON: Under Extensions . MR . SHOEMAKER: The next item.

Well now, probably under this item I could ask this question. In the last three or four years in parti cular , we have witnessed the establish ment of several livestock auction marts in the province; Now, it would appear to an outsider looking on, that they were not probably established in an orderly type of fashion. And I want to say this, that I'm not one bit concerned about any particular individual that might start one up as a money-making proposition. I'm not interested in knowing whether he made any Page 1012 April 4th, 1963

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont1d} ••• •. money - I'm not concerned about that at all. But what I would like to know is, is it doing anything for the livestock industry as a whole? Should we encour age more of them ? Is it necessa ry for an interested group to obtain a license, or can they ob tain a license presently? In general, what does my honourable friend think of these operations ? MR. HUTTON: This point has come in for some discussion in Manitoba, because here in Manitoba there has been a move of late years to move into this business of the local livestock market.

This movement has developed to quite. an extent in Alberta, for instance. And there is no consensus of opinion about the benefits of such markets . I mean, there are pros and cons . Insofar as the development of the cattle industry in the province, it. is felt by some authorities that these local livestock marts tend to encourage the movement of feeder cattle back to the farms in the area, in the market area from which the auction mart draws . In this respect it is a very good influence and should be encouraged.

Some, however, feel that when these local auction marts are used for the sale of fat cattle, that they tend to weaken the bar gaining position of the farmer in the larger market places; that is, by drawing off cattle from, say, the St. Boniface yards, that this tends to weaken the position of the producer. I don't think that anybody has been able to come up with any concrete evidence of this. It might be true in some cases.

It would depend upon the amount of fat cattle that are marketed in one of these local auc tion marts, the volume of business , the compe tition amongst buyers, the ability of that local auction mart to attract buyers, and so forth. So far as we can deter mine in the department, there is no conclusive evidence on which to either condemn them or commend them in respect of fat cattle .

We do know that where these auction marts exist that they tend to encourage the finishing of ca ttle in the area because the farmer who is interested in finishing cattle has a place where he can go at regular intervals to buy his supplies of feeder cattle. And in this respect, they are -- I would say they should be com manded and encouraged. No one that has wanted to es tablish one of these local markets has had any difficulty so far with the Department in getting permission to do so. There are certain health requirements naturally that they have to meet.

I might add that we have some legislation in mind to regulate this type of operation, but we are not prepared at this Session of the Legislature to introduce it. There are still matters outstanding that need further exploration and investigation before we come to any conclusion which would lead us to putting it into a statute . The Member for Lakeside showed a great deal of concern about the quality of hogs in Manitoba, and unders tandably so , and I'd just like to go over the programs that we have in the department for trying to encourage hog quality, or swine quality, in Manitoba.

We have the Hog Carcass Improvement Policy. It was instituted on January 1, 1962, and operates on the calendar year basis . It provides detailed factual information on the following phases of com mercial hog production: The number of hogs weaned per litter. The rate of maturity expres sed in the number of days from birth to slaughter. The most recent provincial average con cerning maturity as derived from official record of performance of swine, is used as a basis of comparison. The 1961 record of performance for Manitoba concerning maturity was 168 days.

Carcass considerations are: (1} the market grade given on the carcass concerned al lowing points as follows: (A'

s) plus 100 points; (B's} no points; (C's} minus 20 points; and (D's} minus 40 points . The hog weight carca ss, across the carca ss, allowing 100 points for any carcass weighing within the optimum weight range of 145 to 155 pounds . Any carcass weighing out of this range will be penalized by one point for each pound above or below this optimum range. The thickness of back fat is considered worth 30 points if the fat thickness does not exceed one and three-quarters inches at the shoulder and one and a quarter inches at the loin, so that the carcass is in weight range of 135 to 150 pounds.

In the case of the car cass weighing in the 151 to 170 pound weight range maximum shoulder fat is two inches and mrudmum loin fat is an inch and a half. The length of carcass is considered worth 20 points in the over-all score; the minimum length for the 135 to 150 pound weight range is 29 inches, while 151 to 170 pound weight range requires a minimum of 29 1/2 inches in length. Information gained on the above basis from two hogs from each litter is average •. This average figure then gives an indication of what a given sow mated to a given boar can produce under the owner's personal manage ment environ ment.

Systematic cullings can then be more safely carried out. Further, a great deal of information is available to compare the merits of any given April 4th, 1963 Page 1013

(Mr. Hutton, cont1d) .. ••. breeding program whether it involves cross-breeding or strains within the given breeds. Canada's Department of Agriculture is co-operating on this policy by contributing 50 percent of the prize money up to $1 , 000. 00. This department also contri butes 50 percent up to one thousand. Nine co-operators tested 68 hogs in 1962. The average determinations: number weaned pe

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-1-41
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 1st hansardpdf 41.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b3b3ae6189c63de01e5c9d4f2b7918c3e677d9bc

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