Manitoba Hansard — 30 May 1996 (Sitting 43A, 36th Legislature, 2nd Session)

36-2-43a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No. 43A- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 30, 1996 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name Constituency I'a.I:t)' ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood P.C.

EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. - EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATH LIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE , James, Hon.

Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. - MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C.

STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

30 03 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 30, 1996 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Teachers-Collective Bargaining and Compensation Review Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Barbara Teskey, John Erskine, Kim Gauthier and others praying that the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh) to recognize the true value of teachers and reject the recommendations made in the May 1996 paper entitled, Report of the Teacher Collective Bargaining and Compensation Review Committee.

Home Care Services Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I beg to present the petition ofP. Lee, D. Goullas, M. Johnston and others requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care sen-ices. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Amanda McKenzie, Gerrie W asylko, Dennis Linklater and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to private home care services. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of R.

Labossiere, Teresa Miller, Sharon Sorenson and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to private home care services. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Seasonal Camping Fees Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin). It complies with the rules and practices of the House (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS seasonal camping has provided an affordable form of recreation for many Manitobans; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has announced inc reases in seasonal camping fees of up to 100 percent; and

WHEREAS this huge increase is far more than any cost of-living increase; and

WHEREAS this increase will lead to many people being unable to afford seasonal camping. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the provincial government not to increase seasonal camping fees by such a large amount. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee ofSupply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I have two reports to table. The first one is the 1996-97

30 04 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1996 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Manitoba Community Support Program, and the second one is the 1996-97 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Works Program. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Alliance of Manufacturers and Exporters of Canada Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I have a statement for the House and I have copies for members opposite.

Madam Speaker, 125 years ago the Canadian Manu facturers' Association was founded, and 94 years ago this month the Parliament of Canada enacted a bill in corporating the CMA to promote Canadian industries and to further the interests of Canadian manufacturers and exporters. Fifty-three years ago, the Canadian Exporters' Asso ciation was founded to promote Canadian international business and to advance the interests of exporters.

Today, these two great associations which have helped form the fabric of this country are merging into a new organization to be known as the Alliance of Manufacturers and Exporters Canada. They bring together their respective strengths and a commitment to build a strong and prosperous Canadian economy. I believe that this combination of export, community and the manufacturing sectors will be very beneficial for our province. Partnerships between the business community and government are needed for us to realize the potential represented by globalization and trade liberalization.

This new organization provides us with a strong private sector partner. Madam Speaker, the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism has been working closely with the CEA for the past year and a number of exciting projects are already underway between Manitoba and the amalgamated CEA and CMA. *

(1335) I am pleased to tell you that the next annual meeting of the CEA, which includes the Canadian Export Awards, will be held in Winnipeg from October 6 to October 8. Our Premier (Mr. Filrnon) will be making the opening lunch keynote address to the delegates who will be attending from all across Canada. This annual meeting had been booked for Ottawa, but an official from my department attended the last CEA annual convention and, with the help of other Manitoba delegates, convinced the CEA executive to move the location of the event to Winnipeg.

There is little doubt that this upcoming annual meeting will be a historic event for the new organization. The Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, through Manitoba Trade, has built an excellent relation ship with the CEA and together we have recently concluded a review of export-related training needs of small- and medium-size Manitoba companies. One of the goals of our government's trade strategy is to dramatically increase the number of Manitoba exporters. The partnership that we have with the amalgamated CEA and CMA will help us to achieve these goals. Staff of Manitoba Trade and the local

chapter executive of the CMA and CEA have already met to begin planning how together we can continue to increase trade and other international business opportunities for Manitoba firms. We look forward to a strong and prosperous relationship with the Alliance of Manufacturers and Exporters Canada. Madam Speaker, I ask the members of the Legislature to join me in wishing the new organization well. Thank you. Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to respond and add our words of congratulations to the two associations, the Canadian Manufacturers' Association and the Canadian Exporters' Association on their agreement to work together in future.

Madam Speaker, I have not been briefed on this particular decision, but I expect that it, at least in part, reflects the fact that many of the traditional exports from all developed economies have shifted from hard goods to services, and that Manitoba of course is a major exporter of services as well as manufactured goods, so I expect that there may be some recognition of that in this announcement. I look forward to the work of this association, and to attending the conference in October, and congratulate the minister and the government in being able to persuade the associations to hold their meeting in Winnipeg.

This is, obviously, an important component of not only our -

May 30, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 30 05 eco nomy, but the Canadian economy, and working togeth er is one of the themes that our party has always believed in. We will look forward to working with the new association as we have with the predecessor bodies, and I thank the minister for his statement. Seniors Month Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister responsible for Seniors): Madam Speaker, I have a statement for the House. It gives me great pleasure to invite all my colleagues to join with me in the celebration of June as Seniors Month in the province of Manitoba.

Throughout Manitoba, various communities will be hosting events in recognition of the commitment that seniors have made in shaping our great province.

Whereas in the past we have chosen to celebrate Seniors Day in the Legislature, our government has made a commitment to take our celebrations outside of the halls and into the communities where they belong. Through the Manitoba Seniors Directorate, our govern ment will be assisting various groups in establishing activities within their own communities.

This year events are scheduled to take place on June 7, with the MSOS Regional Council at the Unicity Mall; on June 10, at Gimli through the New Horizons Senior Centre; on June 13, at the Boissevain curling rink and arena; and June 14, at the Franco-Manitoban Cultural Centre in St. Boniface. The proclamation of Seniors Month is more than just a time to celebrate. The proclamation of June as Seniors Month also gives all Manitobans an opportunity to recall the immeasurable contribution that seniors have made in shaping our beautiful province. *

(1340) We do not have to go back a great length in the province's history to recognize that Manitoba seniors consist of a diverse population from a variety of cultural backgrounds and from many regions throughout the world. They have harvested our rich prairie lands, fished our bountiful lakes and worked in building many of our successful businesses that continue to prosper and create opportunities for future generations. We should all continue to remember the contributions of our seniors and acknowledge the tremendous impact they have had on all our lives.

This month of celebration in Manitoba provides us with the opportunity to let these special Manitobans know how much we appreciate the many contributions they have made over the years and are continuing to make on a daily basis. Madam Speaker, I would like to conclude by en couraging all members of this House to put politics aside and join with me in honouring the month of June as Seniors Month. Thank you very much. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, in reply to the honourable minister, I would say that there is a great discrepancy between all these words and the action of this government.

This is like inviting seniors to their own funeral. The cut on eye examinations from age 16 to 64 itself is evidence that they do not care about seniors' vision, not even for the present, not even for the future. The cut on Pharmacare will put seniors in a very difficult position fmancially, morally, emotionally, because they cannot afford essential pharmaceutical needs of their bodies. The cut in health care services, in home care services, all these point to the opposite of what this government is saying. Thank you.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to, firstly, draw the attention of all honourable members to the loge to my left where we have with us this afternoon Councillor John Angus, the former member for St. Norbert. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. Seated in the Speaker's Gallery we have with us today His Honour Eufrasio Mascarinas, the mayor ofTubigon in the province of Bohol, the Philippines; Mr. Noel Mendana, the municipal engineer of the City ofTubigon; His Worship Glenn Carlson, mayor of Portage la Prairie; Mr.

Dean Y aremchuk, the director of Economic and Community Development for Portage la Prairie. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. We also have thirty-two Grade 5 students from Landmark Elementary School under the direction of Mr.

3006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1996 Russ Dirks. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson). And we have 26 students from Greenway School under the direction of Ms. Diane Zack. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) . On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. *

(1345) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Healthy Child Strategy Implementation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the report on Manitoba's children clearly docum ents the close connection between the economy and poverty in children. It further goes on to document the cha llenges that we have in social, economic and health challenges in our communities to deal with the 60,000 children who are living in poverty here in Manitoba and to deal with some of the health care challenges that those children have in our society.

The report talks of and recommends a number of strategies to deal with early treatment, early prevention programs. Of course, the government, after keeping this report secret for close to a year, released it on March 17 just prior to the election, and then on March 30 in the election campaign the Premier promised to implement a Healthy Child, putting children first program. Why has this Premier not implemented a Healthy Child strategy and program, and why has he in fact gone backwards on the promises and commitments to our future-that is our children? Bon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition makes the right linkage when he talks about the h ealth of the economy as being the foremost way in which we can build the health of our chil dren and our population. Indeed, that has been the area of major responsibility that we have undertaken , of major effort. Indeed, all he has to do is look at the forecast of people like the Conference Board of Canada, who in their most recent report gave the most glowing tribute to the heal th ofManitoba's economy that we have seen in two decades. It was entitled, Manitoba economy stearnrolling ahead.

It reflects the fact that we have kept the taxes dmm in this province, that our job creation created 10,000 additional jobs in 1995. It reflects the fact that in the foreseeable two years the Conference Board expects us to have the second-best growth rate of all 10 provinces in Canada, and it reflects the commitment that we are makin g-[ interj ecti on] Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the official opposition. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and of course- Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I was not finished- Madam Spe aker: I apologize. The honourable First Minister, to complete his response.

Mr. Filmon: So, Madam Speaker, our commitment h as been to work on the creation of jobs, economic oppor tunities and to build our economy stronger. That is the foremost commitment that we can make to solving the problems that have been outlined by the Leader of the Opposition, and that is where we have focused our attentions. Special Needs Children Program Funding Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Hungry children cannot eat forecast, Madam Speaker, and the Conference Board does not provide health programs for children at a preschool age to allow the Premier to fulflll an election promise that he cynically made last year. I would like the Premier to explain to Manitobans why his government cut some 31 percent out of the special needs programs for child ren, programs that will affect the programs for kids in language and adaptive skills, early childhood programs.

Why have they cut those programs, contrary to his promise to expand those programs for children and expand the preventative programs for our kids as recommended by the Postl report? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): We are not asking that they accept forecasts. Last year our province's economic -

May30, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3007 growth exceeded the national average. We added 10,000 jobs. We had the highest capital investment in the history of this province at almost $4 billion with one of the largest increases, second-largest increase in capital investment of any province in Canada. Our export growth was amongst the highest in Canada. Our increase in retail sales was amongst the highest in Canada in every respect, Madam Speaker. We are talking about reality. We are not talking about forecast, so the Leader of the Opposition had better at least brief himself before he stands up to ask a question. *

(1350) Mr. Doer: The Premier should brief himself in his own words when he promised to enhance programs for children, when he promised to implement the Healthy Child program, a program now that he has not only broken his promise on but he has gone backwards. Can the Premier explain why we have had over a 25 percent increase in the number of children who are on waiting lists for audiology programs, for early childhood preven tion programs? What kind of damage are you going to do to the lifetime of those kids because you cannot keep your word, Mr. Premier? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, the only damage that is being done has been done by the New Democrats, who while they were in government ran our deficit and debt up to the highest levels ever seen, who tripled the net provincial debt in this province, who now cause us to spend over $600 million a year on interest on their debt that should be going to S"ervices to children and families. Those are the people who ought to take the responsibility because those are the people who are condemning those young children and families to poverty. Video Lottery Terminals Social Costs Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The Premier's shouts will not change his election promise. I have a new question for the Premier. While the government was cooking the books with the lottery slush fund that they had, they also had in the Healthy Child report, a report on VL Ts in rural Manitoba where they talked about the tremendous impact on the nutritional value for children in rural Manitoba. They made strong statements about-the report indicated a number of children who were left alone and had been impacted in their nutritional levels by massive VL T expansion in rural Manitoba by this government.

The Postl report recommends, as part of dealing with this poverty, that the government conduct impact studies and research on the expansion of VL Ts and the nutrition and quality of life for children living in poverty. Has the Premier done that? This report was prepared for him two years ago. Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): One of the highest proportions of our children living in poverty is our aboriginal people, Madam Speaker, and this is the person who wanted to create more casinos on reserves so that he could influence more money being spent in these purposes that he says are inappropriate.

He is the one who wanted to increase gambling on reserves to in fact further the problem. That was one of his election com mitments and he should be ashamed of it. *

(1355) Gaming Advertising Ban Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I assume then that the Premier, who did not answer the question, has not conducted the research on the impact on children. I want to further ask a question. In the Desjardins report, there is a recommendation to ban lifestyle advertising or political advertising, in the case of this Premier, and we know in the Province of Alberta now that they are proceeding with a ban on advertising. Can the Premier indicate whether the Province of Manitoba will ban advertising in lotteries? Bon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition knows, the Desjardins report made a series of recommen dations, of which that is one, the issue of dealing with the forms of advertising that can take place here in Manitoba. We will be coming forward shortly with positions on all of the recommendations of the Desjardins committee report, but as the member knows we have had a moratorium in place in terms of both gaming expansion and advertising here in Manitoba,

3008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1996 other than jackpot advertising, which is what Alberta is retaining after their adjustments. So that is one issue we take very seriously that we will be addressing, and I encourage him to wait till we deal with that entire report. Video Lottery Terminals Community Referendums Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, of course, the government has expanded lottery, VL T and image advertising dramatically over their years in government and one would think that a government would be committed enough to have a response to a report that took months to produce and has been released to the public months ago. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), Madam Speaker, in light of the fact that the Desjardins committee rec ommends a plebiscite be allowed in communities to deal with the impact of VL Ts, a plebiscite be allowed or a referendum be allowed for communities to decide whether they want to keep the Filmon VL T machines in their own communities, can the Premier indicate today whether they are going to allow communities to vote on this proposal as recommended by the commission, or are they not going to be able to vote? Bon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administ ration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, once again, that is one of the recommendations from the Desjardins committee. I encourage the Leader of the Opposition to stay tuned, that we will be coming forward with a position on all of the recommendations. We take that report very seriously. It was a report prepared by some 14 Manitobans from all backgrounds, walks of life, regions of our province, and that is one recommendation they have made.

As I have indicated, Madam Speaker, we will be coming forward on a comprehensive basis outlining our position on all of the recommendations of the Desjardins committee report. Social Assistance Food Allowance Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, all indicators and all the experts point to the importance of adequate nutrition for infants and children, whether it is the Scientific American

article that I tabled earlier this session, or the Nutrition and Food Security Network of Winnipeg, or Dr. Sarah Kredentser writing in the newsletter ofWinnipeg Harvest or the government's own report, the Postl report, Recommendation No. 32: That food allowances within social assistance programs be increased to allow for adequate nutrition of infants. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services or the Premier (Mr. Filmon), what has this government decided to do in order to implement this recommendation or to follow the advice of the experts, including Dr.

Fraser Mustard, to end the poverty that 7,000 children in the city of Winnipeg are forced to endure because ofthe cutbacks of this government? Bon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question. It does allow me to tell Manitobans that we take the issue of child poverty and family po,·erty very seriously, and that is one of the reasons we have moved ahead with our welfare reform that does talk about employment first and it does speak to, in fact, a job being the best form of social assistance in our province and in our country.

Madam Speaker, we are working very diligently to try to ensure that parents, women with children, are not condemned and committed to a life of poverty on welfare. In fact, the opportunities that are provided through our new initiatives will ensure that parents have jobs, and jobs provide more income and better nutrition and support for children. Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask this minister, if she believes that she and her government take child poverty seriously, why did they cut the food allowance and other increased incomes for children of municipal assistance by up to 26 percent in the City of Winnipeg?

If this is taking it seriously, then what is she going to do to reverse this deplorable situation? Mrs. Mitchelson: I reject outright the

preamble and the question from my honourable friend that indicates that it was our decision to reduce the rates in the City of Winnipeg. There is a City Council that is elected by the citizens of the city of Winnipeg, and they are elected to -

May 30, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3009 govern and to make decisions and that was their decision. It was not our decision. *

(1400) Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, the fact is the city rates are higher than the minimum of the Province of Manitoba, but this rate decrease was forced on them by this province and their policies. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services what she is going to do to implement the policies of their government that were promised by the Conservative Party during the 1995 election when they said that they would do something about the health, the well-being, and the overall economic status of families and children. What is she going to do to implement their election promises? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, we have already started along that path with our welfare reform initiatives that talk about jobs first. I have said many times, and I will repeat again for my honourable friend, that we believe as a government that women and children, families in the province of Manitoba deserve more than a life of poverty on welfare. We are working very proactively and very progressively to try to ensure that employment opportunities are there for those people with the economic initiatives that we have undertaken and the welfare reform initiatives that put employment first.

I want to indicate also that I have had much opportunity to discuss with the community out there, with places like the Andrews Street Family Centre that is doing a wonderful job, with the Community Kitchen that helps women learn how to cook and pre pare meals to take home to their children, prepare nutritious meals. Those are the kinds of programs and partnerships that we are looking to develop so that in fact children do not go to bed hungry at night. Women's Poverty Reduction Strategy Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, this government's policies and actions have destroyed any pret ence of social and economic equality for Manitoba women. Regressive measures from 1990 to '95 set the stage, while the 1996 prebudget announcements and the budget read as a litany of badly cracked or broken election promises: cuts in social assistance for single parents, freezing subsidized child care cases, cuts to family disputes, sur charges on the use of Legal Aid, no women chairs of the 10 regional health boards, restructuring health care or laying off workers, and this is a- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Could I please request that the honourable member for Osborne pose her question now. Ms. McGifford: I want to ask the Premier how he justifies the deleterious consequences of his government's policies and actions on the economic and social status of women. Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, for the edification of the member for Osborne who joined the sinking ship in 1995, the fact of the matter is that for most of the decade of the '80s when her party was in office, they tripled the net provincial debt. They quadrupled the amount of money that is spent on interest on the debt.

As a result of that, we have $600 million that is being spent on interest on the debt-most of it accumulated by the Pawley government-that we could and should be spending on programs and supports for people such as she speaks about but is not there thanks to the philosophies and the priorities of the New Democratic Party. Report Request Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, since the Premier has not answered this question, I want to ask him if he will ask his Human Resources Committee of cabinet to prepare analysis on women's poverty and report back to the House. Bon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as we have said on numerous occasions, the best response to issues of poverty is job creation, economic development and opportunity. Last year we added 10,000 jobs in this province, one of the best records in Canada. We continue to have investment increases, $4 billion last year of capital investment in Manitoba, one of the highest increases of any province in Canada. We continue to have new announcements of additional capital investment, additional job opportunities being announced virtually every month in this province as a result of the

3010 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1996 fact that we are creating a climate that is attractive to investment, attractive to economic opportunities, that will therefore also benefit those women who need to have an improvement in their economic status. Western Premiers' Conference Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Who, indeed, Madam Speaker-real full-time jobs. Since I understand that next week the Premier will attend the Western Premiers' Conference, will he commit to raise women's poverty, which is once again increasing, with his colleagues at the conference? Bon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): One of the things that I always commit to do when I go to Western Premiers' Conferences or annual Premiers' Conferences is to deal with all of the issues that are of concern to the people of this province, that are of concern to the people of Canada. We do that because we believe that there are issues of concern to all Manitobans, and whether those issues are child poverty or whether those issues are the status of women in our society or whether those issues are general economic trends, national unity or anything else, I will speak out strongly on behalf of all Manitobans.

BFI Landfill Site Cancellation Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier. The city of Winnipeg and the capital region do not require another landfill site. This has, in fact, been pointed out through the Clean Environment Commission which has called upon this government to show some leadership in resolving this particular issue. The City of Winnipeg circulated material and asked for citizens of this city to return to the city- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

I am experiencing great difficulty hearing the question that the honourable member for Inkster is posing. Mr. Lamoureux: Over 16,000 residents in the city of Winnipeg have asked this Premier, in particular 600 from his own riding of Tuxedo, to kill the BFI deal and retract the licence. Will the Premier make that commitment today? Bon.

Gary Filrnon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I note from a very quick review of the issues that were raised in the appeal that I understand was delivered this morning by a representative of the City of Winnipeg, an appeal to an environment licence that has been issued as a result of extensive review by the Clean Environment Commission of all of the various matters of substance that were presented to it by everybody including representatives of the City of Winnipeg, environmentalists and other groups in society, that there is only one of the issues that they raise which is an environmental issue, that principally their concern is a loss of revenue, a loss of revenue that manifests itself because the city has chosen to raise rates beyond those which are justifiable or competitive in order for people to access landfills in this city.

It is no different than their recent bleating about the fact that they had to pay a lot of money to convince a company, Schneider's, who had decided to locate in Manitoba, that they ought to locate in the city of Winnipeg, and so they had to pay them a significant amount of money because their sewer and water rates were not competitive with other jurisdictions and their property taxes were not competitive with other juri sdictions.

So, instead, they then had to take tax payers' money to then give to this company to locate here to overcome those disincentives that they have created by their own economic decisions. This is no different than that. On the other hand, I know that the minister will be very interested in reviewing the application that has been put before him and the appeal to see whether or not there is any substance upon which he can make his decision. Mr. Lamoureux: I take it from the answer from the Premier that he does not support Schneider's coming to the city of Winnipeg, and that is fine from his perspective.

My question to the Premier is fairly simple and straightforward. BFI is proposing to build a landfill site north of the city of Winnipeg; CEC has suggested that this government should show some leadership, and that is what we are asking the government to do. Will the Premier acknowledge that the city of Winnipeg and the capital region do not require another landfill site to service this area? -

May 30, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3011 Mr. Filmon: Not only do I support Schneider's coming to this province, but it is in fact as a result of the policies and decisions of this government that Schneider's have come to Manitoba. If he needs any further support to that, he can read the press release that Schneider's put out in which they acknowledged the policies of this government as being instrumental in attracting them here.

With respect to the BFI decision that has been the subject of an extensive review by the Clean Environment Commission, hearing dozens of presentations, receiving many written analyses and obviously a great deal of technical and other environmental information that went to the decision, we will review the appeal that has been put forward. But I say this, that the Clean Environment Commission has done a thorough analysis and has made its recommendation. This is not something that should be dealt with lightly based on economic concerns of people such as the member for Inkster. *

(1410) Mr. Lamoureux: I would ask the Premier what impact he believes this irresponsible, lack-of-leadership government decision to allow BFI to put this landfill site north of Winnipeg is going to have on the relationship between the City of Win nipeg and the provincial government when you cannot even sit down with the city and the capital region to resolve this particular issue? What impact is this going to have on your relations with the City of Winnipeg? Mr.

Filmon: We are willing to sit down with the City of Winnipeg at any time, but when all they want is for us to give them more money, when all they want is for us to enable them to raise more money and not take a look at their responsibility to live within their means and to address their own expenditures-and that is the kind of thing that the member opposite supports. Well, he can support that all he wants, and he will be in opposition for a long time if he supports irresponsible spending and irresponsible economics. Urban Aboriginal Strategy Status Report Mr.

Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): My question too is for the First Minister. The Postl report and also the profile of Manitoba's aboriginal population that was done by the Department of N orthem Affairs reaffirmed something we knew already, the dire social conditions that aboriginal people in this city and this province are faced with. I would like to read in part what it says on poverty about aboriginal people: Over half of registered Indian families living on Manitoba's reserves live in poverty. In Winnipeg alone in the inner city, seven out of 10 aboriginal households live in poverty.

We have heard for the last eight years now about an urban aboriginal strategy to address this and other issues. I would like to ask the First Minister what action his government is doing on the status on the initiative of an urban aboriginal strategy. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): With due respect, the quote that he refers to refers to aboriginals living on reserve, and the fact of the matter is that is the sole constitutional responsibility of the federal government.

We have argued in the past that in circumstances, for instance, in which the federal government used to have responsibility for transfer of funds to the provincial government to cost-share social costs of aboriginals who moved off reserve and moved into the urban areas-they pulled out of it. It is costing us $23 million a year that we have lost as a result of the federal government's withdrawal from support for aboriginals living off reserve.

I would ask that he support us in our efforts to try and convince the federal government that this is not the way to go, that they are not doing their responsibility constitutionally either for aboriginals who are living on reserve or for aboriginals who are living off reserve. Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, certainly the Premier will have my support, but on the other hand, this government must commit itself to establishing a partner ship with both First Nations and the federal government to develop a dialogue and a realistic approach in addressing these long-standing issues.

I would like to ask this Premier whether or not he will commit his government to pursue this initiative. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, absolutely. That is why this government, as a first ever in this province-was not done by members opposite when they were in

3012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1996 government -have entered into agreements that allow the First Nations of this province to collect and keep the taxes that they generate in gasoline and cigarettes and, in fact, entered into an agree ment that is turning over almost $30 million to the First Nations of this province for back taxes that were collected that we are now turning back to them.

This province has entered into gaming agreements with First Nations that are providing millions of dollars of additional revenue that they never had before directly to the bands who have entered into gaming agreements with us. This government has been in the process of settling long-standing issues with respect to northern flooding, turning over hundreds of millions of dollars directly to the aboriginals in the First Nations of this province, giving them an economic base and security that they have never had before.

This government will continue to work co-operatively with eve rybody in this province, including our First Nations, to ensure that we operate fairly and that we address the issues that face them. Education System Funding Formula Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, in a class room of 3 0 students in the inner city of Winnipeg, 25 of those students would come from homes where poverty is deep and where the parents are unemployed. It means the children are hungry, their attention span is limit ed, their physical health is poor and hope is a very scarce commodity.

I want to ask the Minister of Education to tell the House why she knowingly chose to take away $75 of grant support from every one of those children in order to add $230 worth of support to every child in the private, exclusive schools of Manitoba. Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I think the member knows that what she said is incorrectly put, to put it mildly.

The member knows that we have over the course of our time in government increased funding to education from $660 million to $745 milli on, that we have put in the Children and Youth Secretariat that is seeing money being directed from Health into Education to deal with certain kinds of special needs. The member knows as well that we have a massive transfer cut from Ottawa and we have the interest on the debt, which the equivalent cut in education is equivalent to about seven days worth of interest on the debt that her party left us.

The member also knows that the agreement we have entered into with the independent schools saves the taxpayers of this province some $8 million a year, and I do not think that she would want us to have to take another $8 million out of the system away from those very students. While she does obviously want us to do that, that seems to be contradictive to her question. Ms.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, would the minister recognize that, because in 1995 the unemployment rates for parents of children in inner-city schools have increased in amounts ranging from 4 percent to 7 percent, whate ver jobs the Premier is talking about are not going to the inner city, that we have a serious deteriorating situation? Will she table any plan that she has prepared to deal with what is a tragic situation facing those parents, those children and those teachers? Mrs.

Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, every division has trustees, and I would like to indicate that one of the biggest problems trustees have identified, the biggest problem bar none, is the escalating cost of wages in their school divisions. The member is fully aware it is a people industry, the cost of wages should be the biggest expense, but it has become far bigger than trustees have been able to manage. It has been said, and I have not done the calculation, that ifthe average teacher's salary of$51,000 were, in fact, $50,000, that 2 percent would be eradicated.

Boards and teachers together can choose to negotiate as to what their wage increases will be. Boards and teachers together have come to settlements. We have been recently talking about trying to assist the boards in having their ability to pay at least considered as one of the argum ents that is allowed to be heard in front of an arbitrator. I believe the member has that document; there is no need to table it. *

(1420) Education System Child Poverty Ms. Ma ryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. -

May 30, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3013 There is a strong and clearly proven assoc1at10n between a student's standard of living and their level of academic achievement. We know more and more schools are forced to provide the basic needs for their students, evidenced by Kelvin High School's food bank. Will the minister admit that the failure of her gov ernment's social policies, as reflected in the child poverty rate, is the major reason for this new role for our educational system? Bon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the member draws erroneous conclusions from her observations. I would indicate that we are extremely concerned about situat ions where children, students of all ages, require assistance over and above the actual learning experience. The Department of Education is mandated to provide education and through the years, particularly when the members opposite were in government, that was the only role of the Department of Education.

We have been seeing things come into the schools to assist in ways that were never there to assist when the opposition was government and we have done something more: We have started to look at the child as a whole child that should not be chopped up into little pieces and dealt with by this department, this department, this department, 15 caseworkers, et cetera.

So we now have the Department of Education and Training, the Department of Justice, the Department of Health, the Department of Family Services coming together to co ordinate activities so the situation she identified that they never addressed we can now address and are beginning to address, Madam Speaker. Standards Tests Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St.

James): Madam Speaker, my supplementary question to the Minister of Education: She is talking about the whole child, and I ask her, will she assure this House that when her department's standards tests are reported, they will provide indicators on nutrition, health, shelter conditions as well as academic indicators to provide the true assessment of the whole child? Bon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Edu cation and Training): Madam Speaker, in attempting to prepare the whole child for a society, that child upon graduation, now an adult, has to go out into the world and be judged according to the world's standards, and we do no whole child a favour if we bring all standards down rather than try to raise the child up. We will be working with additional incentives in the schools, with additional help in the schools to ensure that children are able to be lifted up, and we think that is important.

The assessments will provide profiles on each child for each family and for each teacher, so that teachers will be able to use those tools of assessment as diagnostic tools to help them move the child on to the next stage of learning, knowing in their analysis that the child has a solid foundation and a proper prerequisite for the next level oflearning. We think that is very important for the child. Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Audit Committee Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier and concerns the audit com mittee at the MPIC and his role in loading it with former Tory candidates and a business associate. On June 14, 1991, Mr. Peter Wintemute, a long-time business associate of the Premier, was appointed by him and the minister to the board of directors of MPIC where he served as chairman of the audit committee plus on the board's executive. I would like to ask the Premier, what role did Mr.

Wintemute play in the determination of the provision for outsta nding tort losses as of March 1, 1994, and what was the amount of the provisions for losses as of that date? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, my understanding is that all of the decisions that have been made were in accordance with the recommendations of the actuaries, and those decisions were simply taken by the board and translated into information that was presented to the Public Utilities Board. I have no information that anything else was done. Mr. Maloway: I would like to ask the First Minister, when did Mr.

Wintemute and other audit committee

3014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1996 members learn of the extent of the losses? When did they do that? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I have no information on that. I suggest the member ask that at committee when MPIC is being reviewed. Mr. Maloway: My fmal question to the Premier is this: What role did Mr. Wintemute and the audit committee play in preparing the corporation's submission to the Public Utilities Board three months later on June 10, 1994, asking for rate reductions in time for the 1995 election? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I think that would be an excellent question to ask the MPIC executive and the minister responsible when they go to committee. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have two rulings for the House. A point of order was raised on May 15, 1996, by the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) about remarks which he attributed to the honourable Minister ofGove mment Services (Mr. Pallister). The honourable member in raising his point of order alleged that the mini ster had remarked that the member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) was a baldfaced liar. I took the matter under advisement as I had told the House at the time that it was very difficult to hear any com ments due to the amount of noise in the Chamber. Having reviewed Hansard and having listened to the audio tape, I am reporting to the House that there is no indication of words spoken from his seat by the hon ourable Minister of Government Services and therefore there is no point of order.

Once again, I would ask and urge members on both sides of the House to use care in the words they choose to use in this Chamber both when they have the floor and when they are speaking from their seat. * * * Madam Speaker: I have a second ruling for the House. I took under advisement a matter of privilege raised on May 27 by the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) about the actions of the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey).

The motion put forward by the member for Osborne read: That this House do censure the Minister of Justice for a breach of privileges of its members in the matter of making deliberately misleading, inaccurate statements about the release of sex offenders in the wake of the Headingley riot and that this matter be referred to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections.

I believe a ruling of Speaker Phillips parallels this case, and I would like to refer to portions of that ruling which Speaker Phillips gave on June 3, 1987: "A member raising a matter of privilege which charges that another member has deliberately misled the House must support his or her charge with proof of intent." * (143 0) I have reviewed with care the submission of the hon ourable member for Osborne, and I do not believe that she has constructed a prima facie case of privilege, that is, she has not pro\ided evidence that the Minister of Justice deliberately misinformed or misled this House.

Speaker Fox on March 30, 1972, noted in a ruling that "Allegations of misjudgement, mismanagement or maladministration on the part of a minister in the performance of ministerial duties does not come within the purview of parliamentary privilege." While I understand that the issue of early release of prisoners is a sensitive one, with people having strongly held views, I believe that the honourable member for Osborne's issue is really a dispute over the facts, and the appendices to our rules book clearly states that such a matter does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege.

I must therefore rule the motion of the honourable member for Osborne out of order. Mr. Doug Martindale (Deputy Opposition House Lea der): As acting House leader, I rise to challenge your ruling. Voice Vote Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. The question before the House is, shall the -

May 30, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 30 15 ruling of the Chair be sustained? All those in favour of Introduction of Guests sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please say yea. Madam Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of Some Honourable Members: Yea. all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us this afternoon twenty Grades 4, 5 and 6 Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. students from Greenland School under the direction of Mrs. Martha Penner. This school is located in the Some Honourable Members: Nay. constituency of the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr.

Sveinson). Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Formal Vote Mr. Martindale: A counted vote, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: A recorded vote has been requested. Call in the members. The question before the House is, shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained. Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Derkach, Downey, Driedger, Dyck, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Laurendeau, McAlpine, McCrae, Mcintosh, Mitchelson, Newman, Pa/lister, Pitura, Praznik, Radcliffe, Render, Rocan, Stefanson, Sveinson, Toews, Tweed.

Nays Barrett, Cerilli, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Evans (Brandon East), Evans (Interlake), Friesen, Jennissen, Kowalski, Lath/in, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGifford, Mihychuk, Reid, Robinson, Sale, Santos, Struthers. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 25, Nays 21. Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair is accordingly sustained. Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I was paired with the Minister of Housing (Mr. Reimer). Had I not been, I would have voted against the motion. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Youth Crime Parental Responsibility Mr.

Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, two days ago, the honourable Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) introduced legislation designed to increase parental responsibility for the actions of their children. Our government has repeatedly asked the federal government to toughen up the Young Offenders Act and with little success. We believe that, in light of the fact that today's youth are engaging in criminal activity to the extent that they are, change is required.

After all, we live in a world of change and for us to pretend that today's youth are no different than they were a generation or two ago would be highly naive. At the same time, we believe that parents must also assume a greater responsibility for what their children do. This was not only an election promise of this govern ment, it was referenced in the throne speech, and we can no longer perpetuate the notion of a society devoid of res ponsibility. As a parent, you have an obligation to ensure that your children, your child, is contributing to the betterment of our society and not to its demise.

You have heard me speak and commend the many good youths we have in our province. Somehow we have to elevate these youths as role models for those who choose a life of crime and violence, unlike the opposition members who support disruption and disrespect, as they showed in the House today.

3016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 19 96 Madam Speaker, the legis lation which I referenced is the first of its kind in Canada, and I am proud to be part of a government that is progressive in its actions against crimin als regar dless of their ages. As such, this legislation is grou ndbreaking and something to be proud of hnagine then, if you will, my sur prise to read what the opposition Justice critic had to say in yesterday's paper.

He said, and I quote: "This is at best just a raindrop on fire." How disappointing it is to read words like this from members opposite who, while they formed the govern ment, implemented no such progressive legisla tion. If our legislation is at best just a raindr op, then Manitobans will be ecstatic that we took them out of the barren wasteland that the members opposite left them in. Applause and accolades to the Minister of Justice. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Women's March Against Poverty Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): The National Women's March Against Poverty, sponsored by the National Action Committee on the Status of Women and the Canadian Labour Congr ess, has stopped in Winnipeg as it cro sses Canada, raising awarene ss about the issue of women in poverty. The marchers are calling on the federal government to live up to its commitments on national child care , universal health care and social programs, and a job strategy that includes full-time stable employment for women. My caucus has a long history of commitment to child care, quality universal services and employment equity.

We have seen an erosion of these ideals under the federal Liberals and the Filmon Tories to the extent that it has had a great impact on the incomes of women and the quality oflife for children in this province . The recession of the early 19 90s and the ideology of deficit reduction through social program cuts has had a serious effect on Manitoba women. It culminated with the creation of the Canada Health and Social Tra nsfer federally and the Tory version of balanced budget legi slation provincially.

These two policy initiatives fundamentally changed the universality of social pro grams while at the same time layoffs, cutbacks and user fees made women more dependent on those programs. Single parents living on social allowance, the poorest of Manitoba women, have experienced a drop of 6. 9 percent in benefits since 1992, 2. 7 percent of which came as a result of this year's provincial government . The numbers of adults and children who are using food banks have also increased drama tically.

Today my caucus joins our voices with the women who are trave lling acro ss Canada, and we call on our provincial government to do the same. As well, we congratulate NAC and the CLC on their initiative and struggle for social justice and send our good wishes to all marche rs. Thank you, Madam Speaker . Morden Kinsmen Club 1996 Kinsmen Community Service Award Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): On June 7, the Morden Kinsm en Club will pay special recognition to one of Morden's most deserving and worthy citizens. On that day Abe Thiessen will be presented with the 19 96 Morden Kinsmen community service award .. Mr.

Thiessen is an individual who has dedicated a lifetime towards helping others and the task ofbuilding a stronger community. He has demonstrated his compassion for those who are less fortunate through his nearly 40-year affiliation with the Association for Community Living. He has shov.n his commitment to the young people of our province by acting as a church youth leader, a volu nteer with the boys' club and a Sunday school teacher. Mr. Thiessen even found time this spring to help build sets for the Morden Coll egiate drama, Alice in Wonderland .

Recently, he has turned some of his attention towards helping the seniors in the community of Morden thr ough the Mor den Services to Seniors as chair of the seniors mediation program . In 19 92, he has also found time to become a chair of Morden Friendship & Senior Services Activities Centre and was a key part of the development of the new facility. -

May 30, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 3017 Madam Speaker, people of all ages owe thanks to Mr. Thiessen for the devotion he has continually shown to the town of Morden and its citize ns. I consider myself fortunate to count him as a friend and I am thankful for the example that he has set for each one of us. We are each given a gift when we come to this earth and it is our responsibility to make the most of it for the benefit of God and his creations. I feel confident in saying that the gift Abe received was one of compassion, caring and giving.

It seems equally clear that he is putting that gift to its intended use. I have often said in this House that the spirit of community and giving is alive and well in the constituency of Pembina. Mr. Thiessen is certainly a worthy example of the richness of that spirit. On behalf of all members of this House, I would like to extend congratulations to Mr. Thiessen on this notable achievement. Thank you. * (154 0) Speaker's Ruling Challenge Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, actually I wanted to comment on the bell-ringing process.

I believe to the best of my knowledge, this is the first time where I was not present for an actual vote in over eight years. The reason why is that I am not too sure-1 agree with the New Democrats when they call into question the competence of the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) and so does the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), and as the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) illustrated in voting with the New Democrats on this particular issue. But I have to question at times why it is that this particular tactic was being used.

We have Bill 35, a bill which we were prepared to pass and on which the New Democrats had ad journed debate, which would in fact see pimps, if you like, put on a child registry, something that could have been very positive being done in placement of the bells ringing. I do not want to impute at length in terms of motives, but when we sat around as a caucus to discuss this the thought crossed our minds if, in fact, this is a way in which the New Democrats would challenge again more so the authority of the Speaker.

Over the last number of days we have seen the New Democratic Party not accept you as the Speaker of this Chamber and rather have chosen to do what they can to discredit you in an attempt for whatever other reasons they might have-[ interjection] It is not reflecting on the Chair at all, to the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes), but one gets somewhat tired with some of the tactics that are in fact being used. [interjection] My apologies to the member for Point Douglas, the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale).

Madam Speaker, there should be no doubt in the minds of members of this Chamber that we too do question the competence of the Minister of Justice. We also question the integrity of the New Democrats. Nellie McClung Status of Women Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, 19 96 is the 80th anniversary of the winning of the vote for Manitoba women. Nellie McClung, who was an educator, suffi"agist, reformer, legislator, author and mother was instrumental in gaining that fundamental right for women. She spent many of her formative years in Manitoba, first in the Souris Valley and then Winnipeg.

She was an effective speaker who won audiences and her points with humorous arguments. She played an important role in laying the groundwork for winning the vote for Manitoba women although, unfortunately, she was in the province of Alberta when that vote finally was won for the women of Manitoba. However, Nellie McClung did not rest on her laurels. She continued throughout her long lif e to work for women's suffrage, dower rights, factory safety legis lation and many other reforms. She was a member of the Canadian Authors Association, on the CBC's first board of governors and a delegate to the League of Nations.

The causes Nellie McClung spent her life addressing are all unfortunately still with us. Women are still underrepresented in the halls of political power. Women are still faced with the effects of patriarchy, sexism and racism in issues such as employment ghettoes where in Canada today women still only make 70 percent of what men do. Women are still prime targets for provincial and federal program cutbacks. Women's health research is

3018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 19 96 still funded at approximately only 4 percent of that for men. Women still work in unhealthy environments-when they can get a job. Women are still doing the majority of the world' s work and receiving virtu ally no recognition for that work. I urge all members of the Manitoba Legislature to celebrate the life and victories of Nellie McClung through renewed efforts to carry on her work to the benefit of all of us. Committee Change Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr.

Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Privileges and El ections be amended as follows: Burr ows (Mr. Mart indale) for Thompson (Mr. Ashton); Osborne (Ms. McGifford) for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) for Tuesday, June 4, for 10 a.m. Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Bon.

Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, for this afternoon the Committee of Supply will sit only in two sections not three , and I would like to seek leave to amend the Estimates sequence so that this afternoon in the Chamber the committee will give consideration to the Estimates of Sport and, if concluded , foll owed by the Department of Culture , Heritage and Citizenship; in Room 255, the Estimates of Government Services followed by the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Touri sm.

Madam Sp eaker: For information ofthe House, this afternoon the Committee of Supply will sit in only two sections, not three. Secondly, is there leave to amend the Estimates sequence so that this afternoon in the Chamber the Estimates of Sport be considered first and, if completed, foll owed by the Estimates of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship?

Leave? [agreed] Also, by leave, an amendment to the Estimates sequence so that this afternoon, in the Committee of Supply in Room 255, the Estimates of Government Services to be considered and, if completed, follo wed by the Estimates ofthe Department of Industry, Trade and Touri sm. Leave? [agreed] To repeat, the third

section of Committee of Supply will not meet this afternoon . Mr. Ernst: Madam Speaker, for tomorrow in the Chamber, the Estimates of Government Services presumed to be completed today, we will only deal with the Department of Northern and Native Affairs. Madam Speaker: Just for clarification purp oses, the information of the House, if the Estimates of the Government Services are completed this afternoon, the Chamber Estimates tomorrow morning will be Northern and Native Affairs, and in Room 255, Industry, Trade and Touri sm. Sorry , for tomorrow not just tomorrow morning? Mr. Ernst: No, for tomorrow.

Madam Speaker: For tomorrow, thank you. Mr. Ernst: Madam Speaker, would you call for second readings, Bills 56 , 57 , 52, 53, 33 and 45. Following that, would you call Bill 35 in second read ing. SECOND READINGS Bill 56- The Manitoba Investment Pool Authority Act Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Indus try, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), that Bill 56, The Manitoba Investment Pool Authority Act (Loi sur !'Office manitobain de mise en commun des placements) be now read a second time and be ref erred to a committee of this House.

Motion presented. * (1 55 0) Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, this bill is intended to provide an investment facility which will permit -

May 30 , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3019 municipalities, universities, school divisions and health facilities-actually the MUSH sector-to pool their money and improve their rates of return. The Manitoba Inv estment Pool Authority Act will authorize the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities and the Union of Manitoba Municipalities to operate the investment pools. The pools will enable UMM and MAUM members and other members of the MUSH sector to combine smaller amounts of money into a larger fund to earn big money rates.

Individual municipalities and other entities in the MUSH sector usually cannot accumulate large enough amounts of money to obtain the higher rates of return which bigger blocks of money can command. By combining the smaller amounts into a larger pool, a better interest rate can be obtained. A pool also offers the advantage of management by a professional investment manager. The actions of the investment manager will be overseen by a board of directors controlled by MAUM and UMM, and which also may contain representatives of other investors in the MUSH sector.

The first investment pool to be created under the new legislation will be a short-term pool managed by Great West Life. At some point in the future, it is anticipated that intermediate and long-term investment pools might be established for the purpose of investing, seeking funds and reserve. The legislation provides for investments of a relatively low-risk nature. It is expected that the greater return on investments will be obtained through the pooling effect and the use of professional investment managers and advisers.

When the bill reaches committee stage, I will be prepared to review the bill on a detailed basis and provide the rationale for the wording of the individual parts of the bill. I encourage all members of the Legislature to support this important piece of legislation. Thank you. Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 56, The Manitoba Investment Pool Authority Act. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to.

Bill 57- The Public Sector Compensation Disclosure Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews), that Bill 57, The Public Sector Compensation Disclosure Act (Loi sur la divulgation de la remuneration dans le secteur public), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Stefanson: I am pleased to introduce The Public Sector Compensation Disclosure Act. This legislation represents another component of the strong accountability framework our government is establishing in the public sector.

The purpose of this legislation is to increase the financial accountability of public sector institutions and organizations funded by Manitoba taxpayers by requiring greater disclosure of how public monies are expended. Under this legislation, annual compensation for individuals in the broad public sector who receive $50,000 or more will be disclosed.

This legislation will apply to, and I list the following: the government of Manitoba; various government agencies and Crown corpo rations; health facilities, including hospitals and personal care homes; school divisions, universities and colleges; Child and Family Services agencies; municipal governments, including the City of Winnipeg; and any other nonprofit organization that receives public sector funding in any fiscal year that totals at least (

a) either $500,000, or (b) $200,000, if the funding represents 50 percent or more of the organization's total annual revenue. The legislation also requires disclosure of annual payments in excess of$50,000 to persons providing legal services under the Legal Aid program and to persons prov iding insured services under The Health Services Insurance Act. These disclosure requirements will be effective for every fiscal year ending on or after March 31, 1996. For example, the government of Manitoba will be required to provide this information for its 1995- 96 fiscal year which ended on March 31, 1996,

whereas the City of Winnipeg, for example, will be required to disclose this information for its fiscal year ending Dec ember 31, 1996. The legislation will require

3020 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 19 96 discl osure within six months of the end of a fiscal year with a longer reporting period for the initial report . The bill outlines optional reporting methods as well as specifies the type of information to be disclosed. The legis lation also provides a penalty for failing to comply by allowing government to withhold up to 15 percent of the annual amount payable by the government to that organization .

Madam Speaker, The Public Sector Compensation Di sclosure Act is yet another examp le of our govern ment's commitment to improving management and accountabil ity within the public sector. This legisla tion provides Manitoba taxpayers with the information they req uire to hold their publicly funded organizations more accountable for the use of their hard-earned tax dollars . When the bill reaches the committee stage, I will be pleased to provide more deta iled explanations on a clause-by-clause basis, and I certainly recommend this bill to the members of this House. Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 52-The York Factory First Nation Northern Flood Implementation Agreement Act Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): I would move, seconded by the honourable Deputy Premier that Bill 52, The York Factory First Nation Northern Flood Implementation Agreement Act;

Loi sur l'accord de mise en oeuvre de Ia premiere nation de York Factory relatif a Ia conventi on sur Ia submersion de terres du Nord manitobain, be now read a second time and be ref erred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, this afternoon, I am bringing for second readi ng two bills to the House that are exactly the same: One for York Factory First Nation settlement agreement and the other for the Nelson House First Nation Northern Flood Implementation Agreement, so my remarks this afternoon on this particular bill apply to both.

Conseq uently, there is no need for me to speak a second time when I introduce that bill. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Praznik: I know I disappoint my colleagues with that, but I want to save them the misery of hearing me have to speak h\i ce. Madam Speaker, both of these pieces of legi slation are the same, in essence, as the legis lation that was passed last year by this Assembly with respect to the Split Lake First Nation and their compreh ensive settlement arrangement.

These particular acts are required to give effect to the Northern Flood Implementation Agreement between the governments of Canada and Manitob a, Manitoba Hydro and the respective First Nations. The agreement requires that both Manitoba and Canada each recommend to their Legisl ature, or respective Parliament,

an act to ensure that the agreement is given effect. The agreement contemp lates legisl ation requiring members of the respective First Nation to advance claims under their respective implementation agreement rather than under the Northern Flood Agreement. This legis lation is based on the provisions of the respe ctive implementation settlements with the York Landing First Nation and with the Nelson House First Nation, and it is intended to give effect to those particular agreemen ts.

The legislation is substantially similar to the Split Lake Cree Northern Flood Implementation Agree ment which was asse nted to on November 3, 19 95 . I think if members examine the bill, as I am sure they will, they will find that the signific ant or substantive portion is found on page 3. In esse nce, it simply means that any claims that arise under the Northern Flood Agreem ent that was signed in the 197 0s, which provided for a claim-by-claim basis of settlement, that any of those claims are now to be governed and handled by the implementation agreement which is a comprehensive agreement.

The dollars that are being flowed under these com prehensive agreements to the First Nations are based on the as sumption that they will deal with the damage and - -

May 30 , 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3021 issues arising from the flooding of their communities with their respective members and organizati ons. If we did not bring forward this legis lation for these implementation agreements, quite frankly, the only other option in law would have every single member of the First Nation now, past and present to be sign atories to the agreement and that is just logistically im possible. So this legis lation to be passed, we would hope, in this Assembly and in the Parliament of Canada gives effect to the comprehensive agreements.

That is the gist of the legisla tion, and I know members may have some particular questions that I will be glad to take at the appropriate time in committee. I recommend these bills to the House. As I have said, they are necessary to complete the Northern Flood Comprehensive Agreements with both the York Landing and the Nelson House First Nations . I look forward, on an optimistic note, to be bringing forward similar legis lation next year for both the Cross Lake and the Norway House First Nations when we conclude comprehensive agreements with both of those. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 53-The Nelson House First Nation Northern Flood Implementation Agreement Act Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, I would move again, seconded by the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), that Bill 53, The Nelson House First Nation Northern Flood Implementation Agreement Act;

Loi sur !'accord de mise en oeuvre de la premiere nation de Nelson House relatif a Ia convention sur Ia submersion de terres du Nord manitobain, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. * (1 600) Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Native Affairs, seconded by the Deputy Premier, that Bill 53, The Nelson House First Nation Northern Flood Implementation Agreement Act (Loi sur 'accord de mise en oeuvre de la premiere nation de Nelson House relatif al a convention sur la submersion de terres du Nord manitob ain) , be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) , that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 33- The Education Administ ration Amendment Act Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs (Mr. Ernst), that Bil1 33, The Education Administration Amendment Act; Loi modifiant 1a

Loi sur !'administration scolaire, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, in keeping with the government's commitment for the revitalization and renewal of Manit oba's education system for current and future generations of students, many new initiatives and changes in the priority areas of educational standards and evaluation, school effective ness, parental and community involvement, teacher education, distance education and technology have been addressed and are continually being addressed by my department.

Setting provincial direction for education while en abling schools and their communities to make decisions that are considered best for the learning requirements of their students has been the pivotal focus behind educational renewal. My department is fully committed to providing greater decision making for schools and to establishing clearlydefmed and meaningful roles and responsibilities for parents, students and educators so that sound decisions can be made that directly affect students.

The fundamental roles and responsibilities of all the partners in the educational system must be def med and clarified in order to enhance shared responsibilities for schools and to ensure accountability of process. Partnerships between parents, educators and the

30 22 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1996 community must be strengthened and sustained, and standards need to be enhanced to ensure that all students in Manitoba can read, write, think, collaborate and compute at a high level. Setting educational standards and policies related to school achievement and ensuring that information on student achievement is available to facilitate improve ment through the co-operative efforts of students, parents and educators will indeed reinforce the importance of shared responsibil ity and accountability amongst the partners.

To that end, as outlined in Renewing Education: New Directions, legis lative amendments to both The Education Administration Act and The Public Schools Act have been prepared for consideration of the House to improve upon the partnership of those working together in renewing education. Central to ensuring the accountability of process within the education system and to enhancing shared responsib ility among the educational partners is the Minister of Education and Training. evaluation contribute to improving the quality of our children's education.

To ensure that schools are responsive and accountable to parents in the community, the minister may make regulations concerning information that school boards are required to provide to parents and community members, including the times, form and manner in which this information is to be provided. The minister may also make a regulation on the type and procedures for release of information on student achievement which must be provided to the public by local school boards.

This will benefit parents when they are considering the school which they wish to emoll their children in and provide schools with measurements of their strengths and weaknesses in student achievement and programming. As a follow-up to guidelines recently released on school plans , the bill will allow the minister to make regulations to set out in law what shall constitute school plans. School plans provide a statement of the goals which inspire a school, the objectives which it strives to meet, and the goals it hopes to reach.

These plans give educators, parents and students a road map indicating where the school is and where it hopes to be. An Honourable Member: A fine woman at that. With those few remarks, Madam Speaker, I commend the bill to the House and thank the members for their Mrs. Mcintosh: I thank the minister for that fine attention. compliment and for the cheering that accompanies it.

The bill before you will expand upon or clarify the powers of the Minister of Education and Training to establish courses of study including setting the amount of instructional time and to authorize programs and ins tructional materials for use in public or private schools. Furthermore, the minister may release information relating to aggregate pupil achievement and the effectiveness of programs in public or private schools. This will enhance accountability and provide schools with a benchmark as to whether they are reaching their potential and achieving their educational goals.

In the area of student achievement and evaluation, the minister may, by regulation, prescribe the methods and procedures for the asses sment and evaluation of any aspect of student achievement and the effectiveness of programs. This will ensure, Madam Speaker, that effective measurement and reporting of student achievement on provincial standards and on school-based Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 45-- The Consumer Protection Amendment Act Bon.

Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I move, seconded by the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh), that Bill 45, The Consumer Protection Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia protection du consommateur, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Ernst: Madam Speaker, this bill is intended to harmonize some of the direct selling provisions of our consumer protection legis lation with those of other -

May 30, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 30 23 Canadian jurisdictio ns. Most members will recall that in 19 95, the federal government, the provinces and territories reached an agreement on internal trade . As part of the agreement, we agreed to harmonization in a number of areas .

This bill reflects the amendments to The Consumer Protection Act needed to bring Manit oba's direct selling provi sions in line with commitments made under the agreement. * (1610 ) Without going into the changes point by point, I would like to say that they concern the cooling-off period for direct sales, cancellation provisions and the contents of written contracts. I am happy to say that these amend ments will result in a win-win for both business and the consumer. The changes will make it easier for businesses to operate in more than one provinc e.

They will also make possible cost savings such as for forms and in staff traini ng. At the same time, they will increase consumer protection to the highest level in the country. Harmonization to the highest standard means no province will have to reduce its level of protection, a point agreed to in the Internal Trade Agreement. In the course of harmonizing the legisla tion, several businesses, as well as business and consumer groups in Manitoba and other provin ces, were invited to respond to the harmonization proposals.

A number of national bodies, such as The Retail Council of Canada, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business were also contacted. The overall response from business and consumer groups was very favourable. In making these changes, Manitoba becomes one of the first provinces to adopt the harmonized provisions and honour the commitment made in the Internal Trade Agreement. So, Madam Speaker, with those brief comments I commend the bill to the House. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) , that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to.

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 35- The Child and Family Services Amendment Act Madam Speaker: To resume second reading ofBill 35, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les services a !'enfant et a la farnille), on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitche lson), standing in the name of the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) . Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? An Honourable Member: No. Madam Speaker: No, leave has been denied. Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): It is impo rtant that this kind of legis lation be dealt with expeditiously, although we certainly will have to look very carefully at the bill as proposed by the government.

This bill in no small way, as a result of information that came to our attention about the inadequacies of the Child Abuse Registry in particular, the absurdity that the Child Abuse Registry would list those, I think suspected is too mild of a word, but those who have not been proven in a court of law to have been child abusers , but ignoring and leaving off the list those convicted beyond a reasonab le doubt in a court of law of either sexual interference or sexual assa ult of a child, the ultimate child abuse, Madam Speaker.

It was our concern that despite the rhetoric and the puffery, I would suggest, of the Minister of Justice and the work that was supposedly done to deal more effectively with sex offenders in Manitoba, this gap, this huge gap was not discovered and dealt with. So, as a result of that discovery, we raised questions in this Legis lature going back to December of 1995 and continued to raise the serious question in the public forum.

So we are pleased that the government has responded and, indeed, if it had not been indicated that they would respond, we were certainly prepared to bring in legis lation on our own and try and get the support of the government for its passage. I also note that the legis lation deals with other matters and bringing within the definition of child abuse the soliciting of minors for the purpose of prostitution. So I

3024 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 19 96 guess when we look at our list here , this is not our list of course, this is the list of the outstanding, unfulfilled election promises on crime, Madam Speaker, we can add to the list of three that we know have been at least partially fulfilled, at least one more from this list of33. So I think we have a little ways to go yet, but we look forward, of course, to this list of outstanding promises, 33 in number, to become si gnificantly shorter. I do not know what this government is wai ting for.

There are, under this government, a record number of victims of crime, and it is critical that the child victims be protected. Indeed, how do you protect a victim? Well you prevent victimization in the first place; hopefully, this bill will do that. We will examine it carefully to ensure that the change in the definition to child abuse indeed covers those convicted of pedo philia.

We are also concerned nonetheless that this bill may not go far enough and that it does require one to be having proved guilty or having pled guilty to sexual assault or sexual interf erence, and we still have some questions as to whether or not the bill should go further. We are concerned that sometimes there are plea bargains that take place, and particularly under this government we notice the extent of plea bargaining and the difficulty that mig ht have when trying to define whether someone is actually a pedophile or not.

It may be that one can be defined as a pedophil e, while respecting the rights of that individual, without having to have the prer equisite of being found guilty or pleading guilty. So we will look at that, and we will want to consider that very care fully. This change to the law will be important for those employe rs, particularly at schools and child care centres which do access the Child Abuse Registry. With those comments, Madam Speaker, the member for Burrows I believe has some comme nts. Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): I am pleased to get an opportunity to speak however briefly to Bill 35, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act. We have requested that this go to committee early next week and be passed early next week. We hope that some members of the public will choose to appear to comment on this because it is an important amendment . We support this amendment because it protects children, especially children in schools, day care centres and, as the minist er pointed out, also in other locations where employers are responsible for children.

A number of those come to mind, for examp le, places like Rossbr ook House, Winnipeg Boys and Girls Club and many other organizations that work with children in our community. I know that these employers make use of the Child Abuse Registry and frequently make this a condition of empl o)'ment, that the applicant has to sign that they acknowledge that their name will be checked with the Child Abuse Registry as a kind of screening process bef ore they will be hired. This amendment penalizes pedop hiles, procurers of prostitutes and users of child prostitute s, another part of the bill that we support.

In the past it seems that when the police were cracking do""n on prostitution that the targets of their attention or their sweeps were the prostitutes themselves. It is a good idea to target the users instead, because this certa inly will penalize the users. Having your name on an abuse registry is really a serious consequence of having been convicted in court. * (1 620) In a general way, this bill attacks those who victimize the users of child prostitutes and that is a very serious issue and I think a growing issue in our community and it is one that has been spread ing into the north end.

Fifteen years ago, this activity was not visible on the streets in the north end and it is now very visible, because it has spread from an industrial area to a residential neighbourhood and it is of great concern to the residents of the Lord Selkirk development and adjoining streets. In fact, if one wants an education, well, you can go down at ten o'clock in the morning and see the child prostitutes standing on the street. But if you go down in the evening, there is a considerab le amount of traffic on streets like King Street and Flora Avenue of johns cruising the neighbourho od.

It is very unsettling to see the young age of the prostitutes and also to see the large number of customers who are on the prowl in that neighbourhood, and I think on the prowl is an appropria te way of describing the activity that they are engaged in. They really are victimizing very young children, in many cases. So with those fe w remarks, we look forward to this bill going to committee at an early time next week and -

May3 0, 1996 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3025 coming back for early passage during this session. We do have new rules under which we are trying to only introduce bills in the spring session and have them go to committee and pass them in the fall. However, there is an exception whereby with consent of government and opposition and where there is either a legitimate need or an emergency, we can pass bills sooner and that is what we are doing in this case. We are making an exception at the request of the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) and I know she appreciates our co-operation.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The motion before the House is second reading of Bill 35. All those in favour of the motion. Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Madam Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. House Business Hon . James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, the House leader is here to make the next motion. Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, given the passage of Bill 35, I will refer it to Committee on Law Amendments for Monday evening at 7 p.m. in Room 255.

Madam Speaker: For the information of the House, this bill has been referred to the Standing Committee on Law Amendments on Monday, Room 255, at 7 p.m. Mr. Ernst: I move, seconded by the honourable Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr.

Sveinson) in the Chair for the Departments of Government Services and Industry, Trade and Tourism; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Sport. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) GOVERNMENT SERVICES Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will this

section of Committee of Supply sitting in Room 255 please come to order. The committee will continue with the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Government Services. When the committee last met it had been considering item 8.4.(

a) Accommodation Development

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2, 009,200, on page 68 of the Main Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Pass. 8.4. (a)

(2) Other Expenditures $71 7,700-pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($475,000 )- pass. 8.4.(

b) Workshop/Renovations

(1) Salaries, Wages and Employee Benefits $1,965,60 0-pas s; (2)) Other Expenditures $247,800 -pass;

(3) Workshop Projects $2,575, 000-pass;

(4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($4, 788,4 00)- pass. Resolution 8.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,25 1 ,900 for Government Services, Accommodation Development, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1997. Item 5. Land Value Appraisal Commission (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $79, 600- pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $64,600--pass; (

c) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($57,4 00)- pass. RES OLUTION 8.5 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $86,800 for Government Services, Land Value Appraisal Com mission, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1997. Item 6. Disaster Assistance (

a) Emergency Measures Organization

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $59 1, 700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $253, 200-pa ss. 6.(

b) Disaster Assistance Board

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $11 8,800 -pas s;

(2) Other Expen ditures $37,2 00-pass.

3026 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 19 96 RE SOLUTION 8.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,000,900 for Government Services, Di saster Assis tance , for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 97. Item 7. Expenditures Related to Capital (

a) Capital Proje cts $1 3, 56 2,30 0-pass; (

b) Depa rtmental Capital $249 ,900-pas s. RESO LUTION 8. 7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 3,81 2,200 for Government Services, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 3 1 st day of March, 19 97. Item 8. 1. (

a) Minister's Salary. We do not have any staff present, so we will just go right into it. * (1 630) Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): I was under the impress ion that when we were coming back to Government Services to complete, that the minister would be present to answer a fe w questions under Minister's Salary. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: First of all, the honourable member for the Interlake can ask the questio ns. The honourable Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) has come in. Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Chairman, maybe to be helpful, I think if the member is prepared to list his questio ns, we will assure him that the answers will be provided to him ASAP. Mr. Clif Evans: Due to the circumstances of today in Es timates, I was hoping that the minist er and I could have a tete-a-tete for a fe w minutes, so that I could go on my way and do my constituency work like I was supposed to. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We do have the Minist er of Government Services present now if the honourable member for the Interlake has some questions or comments. Mr.

Clif Evans: I want to thank the minist er for the time to come back and discuss an issu e with me that we have discussed. As the rmruster is aware , I had approached him, and a letter was sent out dated May 10 to fishermen, to all fishing associa tions denying funds for the loss of net losses and buoys for the 19 95 claim. Has the minister received further information and considered this situation? Bon. Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): We discussed this issue this morning. The member for Dauphin (Mr.

Struthers) raised it and I will repeat what I said to him, that the inf ormation that was provided to me by the board-and in response to the member's reque sts, I was able to get that information actually just today-but the information was that the board had ruled those claims as not being eligible for cost sharing because principally, I gather, there is no such coverage available for recurring damages or losses that are a normal risk of doing business.

I am sorry I do not have the detailed documents with me, but I believe the member's specific situation that he was ref erring to was in regard to Jackhead, Fisher River and Dauphin River. Each had had claims in previou s years. My impression was that the board made their decision on the basis of a couple of things. Certainly, the key one, according to a rep resentative the board I spoke with, was that it has never been the policy of the Disaste r Assistance Board to prmide ongoing compensation on an annual, semi-annual ba sis or on a regular basis for busines s people who incur losses on a recurring basis.

It se emed to be the principal reason that this claim was turned down. What I advi sed the member for Dauphin though to do was to alert the member for the Interlake to the appea l process to make sure that it was utilized in this case if it was fe lt justifiable to do that. Mr. ClifEvans: I do not have '94 detai ls here , but I do have '93, '92, '9 1. There are a fe w claims here in locations that have made claims to the board that are repetitious due to the reason being a storm. The three communities that have applied, I believe Jackhead did apply last year in '94, did receive.

That was one of the first times that I understand they had and after a tremendous period of waitin g for approval on it. Thi s year they have again had to apply because of a storm, and the same storm that occurred did affect all those three communities being all within that Lake Winnipeg area - -

May 30, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3027 that the storm had occurred. It affected, I believe, 20- plus to 30 fishermen. My understanding that the losses, even though it may not seem like a great amount to us, not being fishermen, but it is a great amount of loss to these fishermen. Now they will have to find some other assi stance to be able to purchase nets to go out and perform their livelihoods, which is fishing.

I can appreciate the fact that if there was some sort of notice given prior to, in writing, that this may occur-what the May 1 0 letter indicates-then I can appreciate and understand that notice had been given. But in talking to the three communities, there was no notice given that a decision like this for 1995 would be brought forward.

If the department, the board and the minister want to change the situation, change the resource that is available and has been available since 1986, then perhaps the better way to go would have been to of course let all the fishermen know that changes would be occurring and say to them that because of the changes, et cetera, we will honour the 1995 claims, and we will be making changes to the disaster relief board criteria. I know that the Disaster Board has attempted to make it much easier for fishermen to apply for claims and has asked them for specifics to be able to get the financing and to get the support.

But there really was not anything prior to the May 10 letter that indicated that such a change and such a decision would be made . So I am bas ically appealing to the minister to-- if the board is going to change policy or change the way that the disaster assi stance policy is going to be handled-that perhaps some further notification or prior notification would be providf.d, and I basically appeal to the department and the minister to allow for these claims for 1995 for the fishermen and make it known what the policy will be in the future to them. Mr. Pallister: I guess a couple of points.

First of all, it has never been, to my understanding, a policy of the Disaster Assi stance Board to cover recurring claims that are a normal course of doing business. The member makes the point that notice should be given in advance of that. Well, the reality is that if a given fisherman makes a claim for the first time that does not necessarily qualifY him for coverage, it does not guarantee that he gets compensation. This is not designed to be sort of a replenishment or a way to remove the risks of doing normal business.

The reality is also that if an individual or a reserve claims for the second time then that does not necessarily mean, because the circumstances have to be considered, that it would be disqualified. As the member knows, I think in a couple of the examples he raises, the reserves were given compensation on more than one occasion. The real ity is when the situation occurs on a recurring basis, then it does become a consideration that the Disa ster Assis tance Board has to weigh in its consideration of the claim and the details around the claim.

That, I gather, is the prime thrust of what the Disaster Assistance Board based their decision to not proceed with this claim on. As the member and I have discussed, I think that we both share some concern that the fact that there is always a tendency-and I will speak not from the fisherman's perspective but I grew up on a farm, and the member made the point before that this may not seem like a big amount of money to us, it certainly does represent, I am sure, a considerable amount of money put at risk by these individual s.

Having grown up on a small farm in rural Manitoba, I appreciate very much that capital is put at risk in the normal course of running a business. * (16 40) The reality is whether it be farmer, shoe store owners or fishermen, in the normal course of managing a busi ness, decisions are made to put resources at risk. Those decisions are not always underwritten by fellow taxpayers, nor should they be. In this particular instance, I think that the concerns that I have expressed to the member openly in our discussions are also that by having a program in place, sometimes we discourage intelligent management practices.

Sometimes we encourage people to put things at risk that they should not be putting at risk. When nets are lost and buoys are lost on a regular basis over a long period of time by a variety of bands and individual s, then that is pretty strong and com pelling evidence that we are causing people to take risks that are not intelligent ones and that normally would not be taken in the course of day-to-day operations of a business where people were responsible for their own resources and responsible for replenishing them if they were lost.

I do not think we want to concern ourselves too much with the statement concerning notice, because the reality is recurring claims have never been covered. It was never the intention of this program to cover recurring claims.

3028 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30 , 19 96 So ultimately we always knew, should have known, that once claims became rec urring, they would not be covered. To suggest that because someone was covered in the past, the first or second occurrence of a claim, that they should always be covered for it is at odds with the guidelines themselves, which say that when a claim situation recurs over a period of time, it is not to be covered because it is in the normal course of the business risk that an individual exposes themselves to. Mr.

ClifEvans: I want to say, I certainly appreciate the fact that the fishermen do take the opportunity to go out whenever first ice is gone and it is available. I know that Lake Winnipeg and Lake Manitoba are not exactly the most kind bodies of water when it comes to fishing and to the fishermen themselves. I can appreciate the fact that cons tantly recurring claims of the same nature over and over and over again have to be addressed and say, we can only go so far with this. I look back from '93 and I go back one, two, three, four, five, six years.

I see one community-<me, two, three, four, five times; storm, storm, storm, ice breakup, storm, storm. My communities that have applied are not on this list to '93 . If they are reoccur ring, they are reoccurring only from last year and this year. I would again hope that perhaps-and if the appeal proc ess is what the minister says these fishermen have to go through, I guess I will pass that on to them.

But what I am saying to the minister is, I do not feel it is justified this time around for my communities to have to perhaps take it on the chin for not getting their claims subsidized if the policy of the department is saying well, for reoccurring claims, when in fact reocc urring claims have been paid in the past over and over again for the same reasons. So I would hope the minister would look at that and perhaps come up with some sort of a solution for these fishermen. Fishing is around the corner.

I certainly do not want to see 20, 30 or 40 fishermen in total in these communities not be able to go out and maintain their livelihoods without equipment. Perhaps the message has to be sent that way. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 8. 1.(

a) Minister's Salary $25,200 -pass. Resolution 8. 1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,44 9, 10 0 for Government Services, Administration, for the fiscal year ending 31s t day of March, 19 97. This completes the Estimates of Government Service s. INDUSTRY, TRADE AND TOURISM Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): This

section of the Committee of Supply sitting in Room 255 will now begin consideration of the Estimates for Industry, Trade and Tourism. It seems that we have a few minutes to wait. Does the honourable Minister responsible for Industry, Trade and Tourism have an opening statement? Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Yes, I have, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I, first of all, want to acknowledge the work of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism in preparation of the Estimates and the work that they have done over the past, not only many months, but over the past several years.

I have some prepared notes which I will refer to at this particular time. Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to introduce the 19 96-97 Estimates for the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism. I also want to ackno wledge support that I have had from my colleagues in both cabinet and caucus in some of the major initiatives that we have been able to proceed with as a government. I want to, as well, acknowledge that Manitoba is in excellent economic state, and investors both within our province and outside are showing their confidence in Manitoba by investing in our future.

We have worked hard to create a strong, supportive environment for the crea tion of new wealth and industries. We are proud of our quality of life in Manitoba, and we know that our ability to sustain this priceless quality, as well as to create jobs and provide vital social services depends on a strong economy, and we are confident that our efforts are succeed ing. I would like to mention some of the strong indicators of Manitoba's economic performance. First, Mr. Chairman, I want to mention trade. Last year, our world - -

May 30 , 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3029 exports grew to a record level of $5 .44 billion, up 18 percent. We were the third amongst the provinces and above the national average. Our performance was led by strong gains in sales to our largest trading partners, the United States, Japan and China. In particular, we should note Manitoba's trade with United States which went up by some 21 percent, the second best amongst the provinces.

Exports of our manufactured goods accounted for most of the increase led by transportation equipment, primary metals, machinery and paper products, again, products that have value added to them, particularly in the manufactur ing sector. In fact, Manitoba's exports to the U.S . have increased by 12 4 percent since 19 90, the best increase of any province and well above the national increas e of86 percent. Just think, a 12 4 percent increase since 19 90 in one of our major markets. I am pleased to add, Mr.

Chairman, that our trade performance in general, especially with the U.S.A . continue to shine in the first three months of 19 96, with an increase in exports of 17 .3 percent over the same quarter in 19 95. The national average was 2. 1 percent. * (1 650 ) Mr. Chairman, my department is committed to enhancing this phenomenal trade performance. In 19 96- 97 the department will increase its expenditures on trade related activities by close to $1 million. We will focus on and increase our efforts to expand Manitoba's trade with nations around the world.

An international Business Services unit will provide information services and export training and awareness. Funding for the Trade Assistance Program which helps small and medium-sized firms to access new export markets will increas e. Turning to jobs, Mr. Chairman, in 19 95, Manitoba employment grew by 10 ,000 jobs or 2 percent over the 1994 level, fourth amongst the provinces and better than the national average of 1. 6 percentage points. We made gains in the important sectors of manufactur ing, mining, forestry, agriculture, business services, transportation and communication.

I think it is important to note at this particular time how important it is for Manitoba to have a healthy resource-based industry, clearly an indication-and we can refer to it as we go through the Estimates-of some ofthe very positive expenditures and investments that are made by the people within Manitoba, but also outside investment as they see opportunities develop in the environment which has been created here in Manitoba. Our gains were 2. 7 percent in the private sector, nearly all in full-time jobs, and our total growth has exceeded the national average in two of the past three years.

Our unemployment dropped by 10 ,000 in 19 95, the best improvement of any province and more than double the national improvement. Mr. Chairman, accor ding to Statistics Canada, our real GDP growth in 19 95 of 2.5 percent was above the national average and third best among the provinces. Several prominent economic forecasters have forecasted strong growth for the Manitoba economy. For example, the Conference Board of Canada forecasts real growth of 2.3 percent in 19 96, third best among the provinces and better than the national average of 1. 9 percent.

This is the second year in a row that we have performed better than the national average. In fact, five of the seven forecasters project Manitoba's real domestic growth will be at or above the average in 19 96. Last year our manufac turing shipments grew by 11 percent, the best annual increase since 19 81. This growth continued into this year with a growth of 7.9 percent over the same 19 95 period reported in the first quarter, second best amongst the provinces. The Conference Board expects after-tax personal disposable income per capita in Manitoba for 19 95 to be up by $535 over 1994.

This is an increase of3. 3 percentage points, sec ond best in Canada and above the national average. The increased forecast for 1996 is $44q 00r 2. 7 percentage points, also second best amongst the provinces. I think it is important to emphasize that again. Imagine, 19 95 will be up over $535 over 19 94 and 19 96 over $447 of disposable income per capita in Manitoba. Our retail sales are doing well. In the first quarter of 19 96, the growth was 7.6 percentage points over the same period in 19 95, more than double the national average and fourth best among the provinces.

In the whole year 19 95, the increase was 5.6 percent, second among the provinces and more than twice the national average. In recent years we have been chan ging the operating priorities of the department. Instead of the department directly operating programs, we have been shifting to

3030 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30 , 19 96 facilitating and acting as a partner in programs provided by third parties. This change in emphasis is in line with the 1994 report of the task force on capital markets which recommended the private sector, government, and the community should work together to expand capital markets in the province in order to facil itate the growth of business and jobs. I want to at this time again acknowledge the hard work and effort of the task force on capital markets, the hard work and effort which they have put forward.

I believe that we will be able to further confirm thi s, but I believe that almost all, if not all, of the recommendations have been fulfilled or are very close to being fulfilled from the work that those individual s did on behalf of the Province of Manitoba. I would like to mention a number of programs that will be operated in pertnership with the private sector in 19 96-97. The Business Start program is a loan guaranteed program to assist Manitoba entrepreneurs who are setting up new busin esses. Loans up to $1 0,000 are avai lable and are administered by participating financial institutions.

Business training and counselling are integral parts of this program. In 19 95- 96, this program assi sted with 90 business start-ups and the creation of about 200 jobs. The Manitoba Business Expansion Fund will provide rapidly expanding businesses with higher risk working capital loans to expand their operations. Loans are delivered through commercial banks as incremental loans over and above a borrower 's existing credit lines. We will contribute some $2.5 million to this fund over five years, Mr.

Chairman, and we expect that this will lever some $43 million in commercial loans, the target loan range is $1 0,000 to $15 0,000. I think we should emphasize that again, that $2. 5 million is expected to lever some $43 million in commercial loans in the $10 ,000 to $150 ,000 range. We expect this initiative to close the gap in funding wor king capital for expanding small businesses. The program may be stacked on top of the federal business improvement loan program to enable small businesses to qualify for a combined $400,000 in fmancing. In addition, Mr.

Chairman, these loans will be provided cost effectively by the lending institutions. We expect that about 450 businesses will be assi sted and over 900 to 2,000 jobs created during the five-year life of the program. Mr. Chairman, the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism has been a catalyst in the formation of the new Manitoba Capital Fund. This fund will tap private capital pools and pension funds to address subordinated debt needs in the range of some $250,000 to $1. 5 million.

The fund has raised some $25 million from the province, Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, Civil Service Superannuation fund, Workers Compensation Board, and Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation fund. We expect this fund to provide substantial benefits to Manitoba ns. First, an important new source of capital \\-ill be created for small-and medium-s ized businesses to enable them to expand and create new jobs. Indeed, as many as 1, 000 jobs may be created during the seven years of the program.

It will strengthen Manitoba's capital markets by filling a void for subordinated debt financing in the form of subordinated debt loans. This ranks between conventional secured bank lending and equity. Also because of the nature of this form of financing, all investments will be for incremental economic acti vity. Because the Manitoba Capital Fund effectively transfers some ofthe operation of provincial financial programs to privately mana ged fimds, administrative costs are reduced and the leverage of government support is maximized.

The fimd will complement the successful Vision Capital and Crocus Investment funds which are other initiatives of this government. Mr. Chairman, I would further like to add that I would hope the members of the opposition and other members of the Legis lature would help to encourage other funds, other retirement fimds, to be part of this program because I belie ve, in principle, that the monies generated in this province to some degree, it would be very helpful to see them reinvested in these types of programs.

I see an affirmative nod from the opposition critic that it is, in fact, those retirement funds that will help those people who have retired, help create jobs for their children and their grandchildren, and we believe that there is a direct linkage here that would be very helpful to help grow the economy, and I would appreciate support from the members opposite in encouraging some of their investments. - -

May 30, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 303 1 *

(1700) Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Without interrupting the minister's right to continue, I would be glad to endorse those remarks in terms of capital from retirement funds in particular. The minister may not realize this, but this was an integral portion of our 1995 platform in the provincial election, and one that is very important to us. We are glad to see the government getting around to implementing our platform. Mr. Downey: It never troubles me, Mr. Chairman, to have the support of the opposition.

As I said, this came from the Capital Markets Task Force, and I am pleased that the members of the opposition would like to attach themselves to good policy, and that is always important. Mr. Chairman, I would like to mention yet another example of a program in partnership with the private sector. The Toronto-Dominion Manitoba fund-it will provide new and existing small businesses with Venture Capital loans up to $50,000 without the typical personal guarantees and security required under normal bank financing guidelines.

This fund will fill the need to assist in the formation of new businesses, and enable our business sector to develop their ideas and products in Manitoba. We estimate it will lever an estimated $2 million in loans and make more capital available to Manitoba businesses. The fund will be open to all Manitoba-based businesses engaged in development, processing and manufacturing, with particular emph

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-2-43a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 2nd hansardpdf 43a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b3c1151f1c05caa9fd70beb7852b620a1979751d

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