Volume XL Friday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 25 2 May 1986

The House met at 10:00 a.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order. please! Oral Questions MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Ottenheimer). I might say that I am asking this in the unavoidable absence of my colleague from Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland) as I think the Speaker has been told. It concerns the NATO base at Goose Bay. Labrador. Kr.

Speaker • this development, if it were to come to Newfoundland, would mean a great deal of jobs for Newfoundland. millions of dollars into the the Goose Bay economy in particularly and the Newfoundland economy as well. It will be, if I can use quotation marks. "a political decision." I would like for the minister to tell us if he is aware of. and presumably he is aware of. any discussions that might have been going on through External Affairs. or wherever. from this government to the federal government and bring us up to date on what the status of that process is right now.

Are we about to see NATO come into Goose Bay or are we indeed going to see them go to Turkey? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. L1472 Kay 2, _1986 Vol XL MR. OTTENHEIMER: Kr. Speaker. as bon. members are aware the project to have a NATO base for the training of low-level flying is a matter which is obviously supported by the federal government and supported as well by the provincial government.

But quite distinct from that. during the past few years there has been an increase in training activity by a number of countries, like the Netherlands, West Germany and the UK. which have been using the base to an increasing extent with respect to training. Now the position • of course, is that NATO would officially adopt Goose Bay as their official base for low-level flying. There is no difference of opinion between the federal government and the provincial government; the federal government obviously supports it, the provincial government does as well.

When the bon. gentleman says, 'Will it be, in quotes, "a political decision"?' in the final analysis it will be, yes. "a political decision". but at the NATO level. MR. TULK: That is what I mean. KR. OTTENHEIMER: He is quite right in saying that the other contestant, the other country contesting, wishing to have the training base there, is Turkey. I do not anticipate that a final decision will be made - it is difficult to say; obviously it is a matter outside of Canada's hands when the final decision will be made - but probably not before late into this year.

My understanding is that Canada does have a very good chance of getting that designation but it is in the final analysis, of course, outside of Canada • s hands because it will be decided by NATO. It will be a No. 25 R1472

political decision in that context. MR. TULI<: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Fo~o. MR. TULI<: the bon. the Mr. Speaker, whether it is false or not, there seems to be some increasin~ feelin~ that Turkey, the other contestant for that NATO base, may very well be winnin~ the war, if I could put it that way, the fi~ht - competition is perhaps a better word - to ~et that base rather than Newfoundland and Labrador.

I would like to ask has the minister become aware of an increasin~ feelin~ in that re~ard that indeed the thin~ may be swin~in~ towards Turkey rather than towards Canada? And I would ask him also, Mr. Speaker, if he would table any correspondence, minutes of meetin~s or whatever that he has had with the federal ~overnment, I presume with the Minister of External Affairs. (Mr. Clark) as the Inter~overnmental Affairs Minister here, to show that indeed the Government of Newfoundland is pushin~ the federal ~overnment to push in the international world for that base to be located in Goose Bay, Labrador? MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Inter~overnmental Affairs. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, to the first part of the question, it is certainly not my view that Turkey is winnin~, if you wish, that contest between Turkey and Canada to have this trainin~ base which, of course, will bring tens of millions and over the long run hundreds of Ll473 May 2, 1986 Vol XL millions of dollars into the economy and which will generate very, very significant employment opportunities and opportunities for all kinds of economic activity. I do not think that is the case at all.

A few months ago a number of NATO officers who visited Goose Bay also visited St. John's for a while, and the Premier and I and other ministers met with them. There was another group of NATO officers with whom we are in contact and who are expected to be in the Province within the next several weeks.

The federal government is pursuing all of its avenues and the provincial government is totally supportive of the federal government and we are also, in conjunction with them, doing everything appropriate hopefully so that the decision will be made in favour of Canada and, of course, being made in favour of Canada it is made in favour of this.Province. Certainly the Department of External Affairs has an involvement. If you wish the lead department,. I suppose, certainly on the front line federally with this, is the Department of National Defence, and there has been close liaison in that.

The liaison has not been of the kind, if you wish, of official meetings where minutes are taken but has been in terms of correspondence and in terms of discussion. I would be pleased, on a private basis, to outline to the bon. gentleman matters which have been discussed, but I do not think it would be appropriate to table what would be correspondence between two governments. That may not be appropriate, but I will certainly brief him on the direction in which it is going. To conclude, I think Canada and No. 25 R1473

the Province are doing everything possible to bring this to an affirmative resolution which will be to the benefit of the Province. MR. TULI<: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. member for Fogo. MR. TULI<: Hr. Speaker, there are two things that I would like to ask the minister and I can put the two questions in one. Our position is quite clear on this. The member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland) , in a letter, which has some confidential information which I will not reveal, to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. R.

Aylward) made our position clear in that we support the establishment of that base. But there seems to be within the Province, as the minister is well aware, some conflict between the Native peoples in Labrador and I suppose what you would have to call the rest of us in the Province. MR. WARREN: Some Native people. MR. LUSH: Well, some Native people, and those people are pursuing their goal of stopping that base from corning to Labrador. I would ask the minister what does he hope to do or what has he done to try to bring both sides, if you will, together?

I would also ask him, in the same question, if he would agree, since it is important to us to present a unified front to the federal government, to at least for all of us to be on the record, if he would agree to an all party Ll474 May 2, 1986 Vol XL resolution on how we feel in this Province about the negotiations to get that NATO base and to send that resolution, of course, to the federal government showing our position. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Government Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. OTTENHEIMER: of Mr.

Speaker, certainly, dealing first with the latter part of the bon. member's question, I think it would be very advisable to have an all party resolution. That is something we can discuss and come to an agreement on on the wording. Certainly it would be worthwhile pursuing. The bon. gentleman referred to the fact of a certain amount of opposition to this concept, and obviously that is true. I think that is limited to a certain number of Native people, and a certain number of people who are not Native people pacifists who are against any form of military activity.

Goose Bay, first of all, does not come within the nuclear area. Canada is in NATO. There will also be a training base for low level flying by NATO. It is not a case of if it is not built here it will not be built at all, it will be. So, you know, these are given facts. Canada is in NATO and NATO does intend to have a low level training base. These are facts. Certainly such a resolution could be very beneficial. It is something that I will discuss with the bon. member who represents, apart from his constituency, the NDP Party, and then see if that would be feasible.

Perhaps, also in line with that, I will undertake, sometime probably No. 25 Rl474

within the next week, maybe in terms of a Ministerial Statement, to give an update on the process which is now in place . MR. SIMMONS: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: I have a question for the Government House Leader (Mr . Marshall) . The offshore industry people have again stated their concerns about the anticipated downturn, from their viewpoint, in exploration and what it will do to their economic fortunes, to their companies' fortunes.

Does the minister still feel, as he did some time earlier, that perhaps these companies are overreacting? ··More to the point, does he have something to say that might reassure them that exploration in 1986 - 1987 will be at the level of the past two or three years? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. · MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I want to make it quite clear that the government, of course, can understand the concern expressed by the offshore operators.

But, yes, I do feel and have suggested that the public statement that was made by the Board of Trade and the offshore operators was perhaps overreacting a bit to the situation . We have four rigs out there now and those four rigs certainly will be there until the end of this year. That is not a marked decrease in the amount of exploration offshore. Coupled with that we have the fact that we have an extremely good L1475 May 2, 1986 Vol XL prospective area, and this statement has been heightened over the past Summer as a result of the three additional significant discoveries.

I think the hon. gentleman will concur with the fact that exploration is going to occur in such places where there are the greatest prospects of making a find. Then, on the other side of the coin as well, the other element that comes in that there has been the change, as the bon. gentleman is aware, in the National Energy policy, where Petroleum Incentive Payments have been replaced by tax incentives, and that is going to take a while for the companies to to. So based on all of those factors, and I think primarily the prospectiveness of the Newfoundland offshore, I think it may have been overreacting a bit.

But I can always sympathize with companies who any kind _of downturn, temporary or to any degree, particularly in a Province where we are struggling to maintain the highest of economic activity. However, having said that, yes, I do believe they were overreacting somewhat. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon . member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS : Some weeks ago in the House the Premier indicated we had a fairly narrow window.

I think he said that we would have to have an agreement with the federal government and the operators in terms of the tax regime by the end of May to allow the project to go forward on schedule. Would the minister confirm whether that is No. 25 Rl475

still the case or that is still the window they are dealing with? And, in particular, will he indicate to the House whether the

schedule for Hibernia is in any way under threat because of the present state of negotiations? KR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The ·bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: There is no present threat to the scheduling of Hibernia. As the bon. gentleman is aware we, as a matter of fact, are having intensive discussions with the federal government and with the Mobil partners with respect to the fiscal regime. The board is dealing with the development plan. Actually, there is a meeting going on today with respect to it.

There are meetings next week with officials and .various members of the board and what have you, so it is still going on. The bon. gentleman refers to the Premier's statement. I think the Premier made it in the context that if we could get a release by the end of May or the early part of June, we had a greater prospect of more activity this year than we would if the release were later. But the fact that if it is not released by the end of May does not necessarily put the project in jeopardy. MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

FLIGH'.r: Mr. the Speaker, my Minister question is responsible for for Ll476 Kay 2, 1986 Vol XL Housing. As the minister knows, we are now into the construction season. Hundreds of Newfoundland families and applicants have been waiting to have their RRAP applications approved and funds made available so that they can start much-needed upgrading and repairs to their houses. The bulk of · these applicants, as he knows, are in the lower and fixed income groups.

When will the RRAP funds indeed be made available to the councils and other sponsoring bodies so that the funds can, in turn, be made available to the people who so badly need them? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Kines and Energy. MR. DTNN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the bon. member for his question and his concern. The bon. minister and many other members on this side of the House, as a matter of fact, the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) and my colleague here, the Minister of Consumer Affairs (Mr. Russell), have been talking to me about the release of the RRAP funds.

I am pleased to announce that the RRAP funding this year has been increased to the tune of about 47 per cent. We will have $15 million that we will spend in RRAP funding this year compared to the $8 million that we had last year and less than that the year before. We are, as a matter of fact, on a downward slope with respect to RRAP. But we have concluded a global agreement with the federal government. My counterpart, the bon. Bill McKnight, has agreed to increase the RRAP funding and make it universal throughout the Province. As the bon. member knows, RRAP No. 25 R1476

funding was not available to certain areas of the Province. It is now universal. It is available to anyone in the Province. The funding is increased. Much of it is rural. We will be spending $15 million on RRAP funding this agreement year. The global signed. We will be operating agreement funding in the next When that is done approve the funding House of Assembly, funding will be released. signing for week or and when here in then MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary, MR. SPEAKER: is the RRAP so. we the the A supplementary, the bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, it is good news to hear of the increase but as the minister knows hundreds of applicants last year did not receive funds. Of course there are many, possibly thousands, in the Province .who have submitted new applications. Would the minister care to inform the House as to whether or not he believes that the new funding will make it possible to fund all the applications that were rejected last year simply due to a lack of funds and due to cutbacks, as well as taking care of the new applications coming in? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, as the bon. member knows, the previous funding arrangements that we have had with the federal government were not very flexible. We are hoping that the new operating agreement with Ll477 May 2, 1986 Vol XL the federal government, when we get it signed, will be more flexible so that more people will be eligible. We are hoping to have almost a three-tier system, one being ones where you need minor repairs - a porch, windows, that kind of thing - to the total upgrading situation and we are also hoping to get an increase in the presentlevel of funding of $10,000.

We are hoping to get that increased in the operating agreement. These are some of the negotiations that are going on right now. We hope to have them signed, as I said to the bon. member. It is not just that one agreement, there is the RRAP, the rural and remote housing, the subsidized housing that you have in the urban areas, and so on. All of these agreements are now into negotiations and, as I said, we hope to sign them within the next week. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I have two questions here and I will try to put the two of them into one final supplementary. Would the minister indicate if the ratio, the $5,000 grant with a $5,000 loan, is going to be the same this year as other years? Would the minister also indicate whether he is prepared to look at the applicant's ability to receive these funds? Hundreds of Newfoundlanders for RRAP loans credit rating, that in lots particular credit have been rejected because of a bad but the fact is of cases that rating was a No. 25 Rl477

result of things that happened twenty years ago. The fact that a person bad developed a bad credit rating twenty years ago is now on the record, the Credit Bureau shows it, and then Newfoundland and Labrador Housing say they cannot fund that application because of the credit record, but the housing need is just as bad. A family depends on the housing, but because the head of the family may have developed a · bad credit rating twenty years ago he is still being rejected for RRAP funds. So would the minister indicate as to whether he is prepared to look at that aspect of RRAP funding? MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that there is a huge amount of people who have bad credit ratings who are not eligible for RRAP funding. But I . tell the bon. member that if he has a particular constituent or a particular application that is in for RRAP funding that he seems to be having trouble with, then if he will just forward the application to me I will intercede on his behalf and on his constituent's behalf to see what, if anything, can be done with respect to that application. MR. FLIGHT: What about the ratio? MR.

DINN: One of the things we are negotiating, Mr. Speaker, in the operating agreement is the ratio of fundin_g_ and how high we can go with the funding. In other words, we are hoping to have the grant portion increased somewhat. Ll478 May 2, 1986 Vol XL MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for Energy, if I could have his attention? My question is on the Annual Report of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro which was tabled yesterday in the House.

As everybody knows last year and the year before we ran into some very high electricity bills, especially in the Winter of 1984 and in the Spring of 1985. At that time people had to pay enormously higher bills. Given that that is the situation it seems appropriate that the electricity company should have taken less.

My question to the minister is, given that the profits for Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro this year look to be about double the profits for 1980, 1981, 1982, or 1983, could he explain why our electricity company, Newfoundland Hydro, is making profits about twice its average over the last five years when in fact everybody else in the Province was paying enormously high bills to it? Were they gouging us while they were doing it? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, nobody is gouging anyone.

The hydro rates are paid this year on a steady basis which is an average rate set by the rate stabilization fund. Any credit that results in that accrues to No. 25 R1478

the people of the Province of Newfoundland in the fund itself. As far as the profit of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro is concerned, the hon. gentleman can read the balance sheets and see a profit, but in fact there is no profit in the sense that an ordinary corporation makes a profit. The fact of the matter is that there has to be. in order to have Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. this Crown corporation on a firm and stable basis. a certain amount of interest coverage that is required by the bond houses which is an amount of money over and above the actual operating costs in order to secure the bond rating.

But that money is not taken in by government at all, it is not taken into government and it finds its way eventually into the pockets of the consumers. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. the hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: If that is the case, then we should not see vast increases in the retained earnings. My question to the minister is this: Why on page 20 of the annual report do we see the retained earnings at the beginning of 1984 at $117 million and now at the end of 1985 they have escalated up to $197 million, almost 100 per cent increase in retained earnings?

If they are not taking this money from us. who, in God • s name. are they taking it from? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: L1479 May 2, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, first of all, if the hon. gentleman wants to examine and ask questions about the financial statements of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, I would be happy to respond to them. But I suggest any questions of a detailed nature would be more properly place on the Order Paper.

The fact of the matter is, as I say, any increase in the balance sheets themselves should not be attributed as being a profit of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro in that ·Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro is taking money from the people of this Province and making a profit. What happens with each and every cent that is gained from the people of the Province ofNewfoundland is it finds itself, if there is any surplus, back in the pockets of the consumer.

The fact of the matter is, if the bon. gentleman wants to look at the other tables in the financial statements, he will see just how efficient Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro operates. There is a very, very low proportion of operating expenses. All the rest of the money is used for the purpose of paying of interest expenses and hydro developments that have been installed or for the purchase of oil where oil-fired generation is necessary. MR. FENWICK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Menihek. MR.

FENWICK: If that is the case, why do they say on page 13, "However, the prime increase in revenues from these customers was because of increased fuel escalation charges No. 25 R1479

related to production increases from oil fired generation"? It seems to me that that is where their profits .came from. MR. MARSHALL: What page? MR. FENWICK: Page 13 under revenue. the prime increase in from these customers - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! "However, revenues This is a final supplementary. Would the bon. member please pose his question? MR. FENWICK: Yes. My question is: If that is the case, then why does Hydro itself say that its increased revenue is coming from the increased money it charged through the increased cost of oil adjustment charges? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, any increased revenues, as I say, to Hydro that come from those operations will end up in the rate stabilization fund and it is averaged out. I would suggest to the bon. gentleman that you can make anything with respect to figures as the bon. gentleman knows. The fact of the matter is that of the monies that come in, if there are any in excess of the expenses of Hydro, that ends up going back into the pockets of the people through the rate stabilization fund.

But, as we indicated .in the Resource Estimates Committee, and we have explained over and over again, it is in 1987 that that is Ll480 May 2, 1986 Vol XL going to be levelled out, if, in fact, there is going to be any levelling out, because at the present time there is a deficit in that particular fund. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: My question is to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout), Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, yesterday in the course of the adjournment debate the minister announced that . the Russian quota in area 3NO, I think it is 2,500 metric tons, has been negotiated and will revert to NAFO countries, including Canada.

In light of the government's announced intention to establish a mid-distance fishery, in view of the fact that we have a large number of boats, sixty-feet and over that are capable of prosecuting that fishery, is the minister able to tell the House now if he has recommended or will he recommend to his colleague that that Russian quota be made available to the Newfoundland inshore fleet boats that are capable of prosecuting the fishery, the boats, for example, from Port de Grave? MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR.

RIDEOUT: Mr. will Speaker, recall the from bon. the gentleman Committee yesterday morning, and I believe in a similar question in the House of Assembly yesterday afternoon, I have already indicated publicly No. 25 R1480

that one of the reasons why this Province was supportive of trying to access some extra stocks in 3NO was for that very reason, to be able to provide a quota for vessels in that zone less than sixty-five feet . So the answer is yes. MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon . member for Twillingate . MR. W. CARTER: the Mr. Speaker, again on the same matter, yesterday the minister offered to have an investigation undertaken into the allegation that Nova Scotian vessels were seen fishing in the same area.

Would the minister now undertake to contact the federal authorities with a view to having any proposed charges laid against the Port de Grave boat dropped pending the outcome of that investigation? MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon . the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: I did say yesterday that I would investigate the allegations that were made both in and outside the House that only boats owned by Newfoundlanders but skippered by Nova Scotians were being harassed by federal surveillance forces in 3NO. We have attempted to do that since yesterday, and I can only report what I am told.

I was informed this morning, just before coming to the House that that has been categorically denied by federal su~eillance officials. MR. W. CARTER: Ll481 May 2, 1986 Vol XL Oh! MR. RIDEOUT: There is no point of ohing to me, Mr. Speaker, I am only reporting what I am told. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. RIDEOUT: It makes a nice oh, Mr. Speaker . I was just answering the question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

RIDEOUT : Federal surveillance officals have informed us that they have their surveillance patterns before they go out to do their two weeks or three weeks on their course, whatever it is, and whatever vessels that they might run into that appear to be in contravention of the law in that particular course, . whether it is a foreign vessel or a vessel from Nova Scotia or a vessel from Newfoundland, the same action will be taken with all vessels. So they report to us. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Fisheries.

There was a report done on the MV Keltic in 1983-84 where two options were studied. One option was for the middle-distance fleet, and the other option was for the fifty-five to sixty-five feet No. 25 Rl481

category, and it was recommended at that time, because of the excessive number of fifty-five to sixty-five foot boats around the Province of Newfoundland, that these boats would be given preference and a study would be done on making those boats equipped to fish offshore more than the middle-distance boats. Would the Minister of Fisheries explain why he has put more concern on the middle-distance than he has on our own boats of fifty-five to sixty-five feet? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, it is some hard to keep up to him but I hope I got the gist of the question. MR.

EFFORD: You did get the gist. MR. RIDEOUT: The fact of the matter, Mr. Speaker, is that if the bon. gentleman wants to give accurate information to the House, to his constituents and to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador he would say that the Keltic report was bases on an experiment carried out in 2J3Kl and it has been the experience of everybody that we can lay our hands on - MR. TULK: It was done on ENO. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

RIDEOUT: The Keltic experiment was based on fishing in 2J3KL, so the bon gentleman in posing that question Ll482 May 2, 1986 Vol XL is saying to me that those vessels should be fishing in 2J3KL. Mr. Speaker, those vessels can fish all they like, every day, every week, every month, all year long in 2J3KL without any restriction. If that is what the bon. gentleman is saying, Mr. Speaker, we are totally on side. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Government House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is Question Period, it is not a shouting match.

The bon . . members for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) and Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) are continuing to shout when a member is making a response, and all the rest of it. The rules require them to keep quite when a member is responding. MR. SIMMONS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, to the credit of the minister who just spoke, he was laid back and low-key this morning, as was his seat mate from Waterford-Kenmount (Mr. Ottenheimer), as was every other minister. It was only when my very good friend for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr.

Rideout) got up that he kind of blew a gasket, and it kind of disappointed me because he was shouting. MR. RIDEOUT: I was trying to answer the question. No. 25 Rl482

MR. SIMMONS: There is what I mean, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: We just appeal to him, it is Friday morning, we are all trying to get ready for a long weekend, so the minister should just give intelligent answer. The volume he turns on does not improve the quality of the answer, I say to him. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, all hon members know that when a member is standing speaking he should be heard in silence.

It is impossible to be absolutely, 100 per cent strict on that, but howling and trying to shout down another member does not achieve anything and certainly will have to stop. The time for Oral Questions has now elapsed. I would welcome seventy parents School, Newbury like at this stage to to the Visitors• Gallery Grade IV students and ten from Topsail Elementary with their teachers Audrey and Esther Haynes, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for St. John's North. Ll483 Kay 2, 1986 Vol XL MR. J.

CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the Standing Committee on Social Services reports having considered the matters to it referred, having approved the estimates of expenditure of the Departments of Health; Justice; Education; Environment; Social Services; Culture, Recreation and Youth; and Career Development and Advanced Studies. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, a few days ago the han. member for St. Barbe (Mr.

Furey) raised a question about the possible hazard of certain electric oil-filled radiators. I indicated to him at the time that it had not been brought to my attention, and subsequently the member for Gander (Mr. Baker) asked me what the system was in terms of making me or my department aware of these things? The only written information we get with regard to potentially hazardous products is if Consumer and Corporate Affairs Canada put out a bulletin and then, of course, copy their counterparts in the provinces.

In this case, Environment Canada picked it up and they issued a bulletin, I think, to their counterparts in the Province. I have had an opportunity to look into this as I promised the hon. No. 25 R1483

member I would and, if the House will permit me, I am making a press release today and I would just like to give the gist of what the information is that I have obtained; it answers the hon. member's question, as well. These electric oil-filled radiators are sold under the brand name of De'longhi Canada. One, and I emphasize Mr. Speaker, at this point in time, as far as I know only one of these electric heaters was found by Environment Canada to contain hazardous PCBs after springing a leak. This leak was not found to be a pure PCB concentration, however, it is considered to be a serious level of contamination.

It is suggested that owners of these heaters should immediately disconnect them and either store them or return them. Sears Department Store in St. John's, for example, has sold approximately twenty of these radiators, and they are accepting the return of these heaters because the company De' long hi has voluntarily put out a recall on them. So I am really advising consumers to be cautious of these heaters and any other products, and certainly they can contact any of my regional offices to get pre-purchase information about them. MR. TULK: Give 'Furey' your salary. MR. RUSSELL: I do not need to give 'Mr.

Furey' my salary, Mr. Speaker. Maybe the highest paid Opposition House Leader in Canada can give him part of his. L1484 May 2,, 1986 Vol XL MR. TULK: I will, if you give him part of yours. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Petitions MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to present a petition on behalf of 116 residents of the Town of Rigolet in my district.

The prayer of the petition reads as follows: "Whereas Rigolet School lacks a gymnasium and is therefore one of the few, if not the only school that does not have . this much needed and essential facility and our children are entitled to such a facility in their education as other children, therefore, we, the undersigned, do hereby demand that our MHA give the appropriate representation for and on behalf of the community of Rigolet, that a gymnasium be a priority for the Northern Lights Academy of Rigolet. Mr. Speaker, I have no problem supporting this petition.

I think every student in the Province, whether they are from Topsail Elementary or whether they are from Rigolet, Labrador, should have facilities where they can enjoy extra-curricular ac .ti vi ties, such as gymnasium activities and sports, volleyball, basketball, floor hockey and w~at have you. No. 25 R1484

If you visit the school in Rigolet, you will see that the only place those children can play in the Wintertime is out on the harbour ice, and the only place they can play in the Summertime is on the littl~ paths or roads, which are not even passable roads, in the community. There are no facilities whatsoever; there is no outdoor playground, there are no indoor facilities. This is not a big request. They are asking that some kind of gymnasium be built onto their school to assist them in their educational and extra-curricular activities. I might add also, Mr.

Speaker, that representatives of the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development and the school board are going into Rigolet on Monday to meet with the concerned people in Rigolet concerning a gymnasium for their school. I will do what I can, as their elected representative, with the various departments of government, with the school board and with the IEC, to see -that that is the next priority. Of first priority on the Labrador Coast at the present time is the completion of the all-grade school in Nain, and that is supposed to be finished and opened this Fall.

Hopefully they will look very seriously toward building a gymnasium for the people of Rigolet so their children can enjoy what many other children in the Province enjoy, and that is a gymnasium. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Ll485 May 2, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, I take great pleasure in supporting the prayer of the petition so ably presented by the gentleman from Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren), pleasure, because it was he who presented it and I always like to support his efforts to bring about improvements in his communities along the Coast of Labrador; pleasure in supporting it, also, because I recognize the particular need to which the petition draws attention, the need for adequate facilities for students to pursue co-curricular activities.

I just wanted to say to him, the gentleman who just presented the petition, that now that he is over on that side of the House, one of the things he should do when he is lobbying with the various departments of government, is do a little lobbying at the political level . Because despite the great transformation that his migration from this side of the house to that side has caused, bringing untold new benefit to the people of the Coast of Labrador, there is one area in which he has not made a dent yet.

Ever since he has been over there, and it seems like a millennium, we miss him very much, the amount for school construction, and hence, construction of gymnasia, has not increased, it is still $20 million a year, though we have had the effects of inflation. I would say to him that perhaps the most practical thing he could do - MR. WARREN: How about the (inaudible) MR. R. AYLWARD: He will get it ready for you. MR. SIMMONS: You now Speaker, see illustrated, why that member is Mr. not No. 25 Rl485

going to get a gymnasium. He gets up and in one mouthful he makes a heartfelt petition to have something done about it. and then he comes up and coaches the minister. who is going to respond to me. in what to do to undermine the argument I am making in favour of his cause. Now, Mr. Speaker. undermine all they will.

I say the serious solution to the problem is for the government to recognize that school construction costs have gone up over the past four years and instead of freezing the amount at $20 million. they ought to increase the amount to take into account the particular need that the gentleman talked about. and that the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) talked about yesterday. where he said it would take $100 million to address those kinds of needs throughout the Province. Mr. Speaker. $100 million. in the context of the kind of money this government is spending. is not a lot of money.

Let them put in a little bit each year. He would do more service to his constituents in Rigolet and throughout Torngat Mountains if he stopped being the apologist for an unpardonable sin that this government is committing on the children of this Province and started speaking up like the independent he used to be before he got used to wrapping his thirty pieces of silver. MR. SIMMS: MR. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker.

I would like to say a few words in support of the petition so ably presented by my L1486 May z. 1986 Vol XL colleague. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). I will try to contain my remarks to the prayer of the petition, rather than get involved in the partisan kind of 1i t tle game the bon. member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) has been trying to play in trying to score some silly political points against the member. The member for Fortune - Hermitage talks about the member's ineffectiveness in trying to get these kinds of facilities in Labrador since he came over to this side.

I would like to point out to the the bon. member that one of the largest gymnasiums built in this Province in the last few years was built in the community of Main. That is a $5 million gymnasium and that was built, if my memory services me right, after the bon. member came over to this side of the House, after the bon. member made representation to get facilities like that put in that area of the Province. That, I think, should deal with that particular point. MR. SIMMONS: Your memory serves you well. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMS: Now I did not interrupt the bon. member, Mr. Speaker.

I only have five minutes to speak. The han. member should not try to take up my time in speaking on this particular petition. Mr. Speaker, I have had some experience in the Department of Recreation, being a former minister. I have had experience on the Coast of Labrador, having been in a number of communities in No. 25 Rl486

Labrador. If there is one place in this Province, I suppose, where that kind of basic necessity is needed, it has to be the Coast of Labrador without .any doubt, without any question whatsoever. Mr. Speaker, a couple of years ago this government introduced and supported considerably, in a financial way, the Labrador Games which now, I think, have been held twice. Mr . Speaker, those young people from the Coastal part of Labrador, in particular, if you could see their eyes when they attend and participate in those games, it would really make you feel for them.

So it is another reason, I think, that this kind of facility, a basic facility such as gymnasium, should be provided. I have no trouble supporting the 116 petitioners on behalf of the seventy-odd students. Knowing full well that the member for Torngat Mountains has had so much success in the last few years, since he joined this side of the House, vis-a-vis the gymnasium in NAIN, I would not be . at all surprised if the member for Torngat Mountains is successful in the pursuit of this aim and this goal.

I do not know the best way to do it, because it is a bit of a complex situation, but knowing the talents, the exceptional kinds of talents the Minister of Education has, and the exceptional kinds of talents the Minister of Rural Development has, and the truly exceptional kinds of talents that the member for Torngat Mountains has, I would not be at all surprised if the people of Rigolet will, sometime in the near future, see this basic goal reached without too much difficulty. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Ll487 May 2, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? MR. BLANCHARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD : Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition which has been signed by 970 residents of my district of Bay of Islands, primarily residents of the North shore of the Bay of Islands. MR . SIMMONS: On a point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. J. CARTER: This is ridiculous. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: The gentleman for St. John's North says it is ridiculous. I am now about to do exactly what he did yesterday, and that is to enquire of the Chair and of the House as to whether now this is a filibuster?

Because yesterday, as soon as we proposed our second petition from this side, we were accused of filibustering. I just want the House to note that petitions from our view are an important part of this House and we are prepared to allow them to go forward, but we deserve the same treatment when we are putting petitions; we deserve the same protection from the Chair and from this House. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. The hon. the Minister of Labour. No. 25 Rl487

MR. BLANCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, when I was rudely interrupted by the member for Fortune - Hermitage, the petition has been signed by 970 residents of primarily the North shore of the Bay of Islands. The prayer of the petition is, Mr. Speaker, 'We, the undersigned, hereby support Mr. Byron Brake in his endeavours to establish a twenty-one bed senior citizens guest home at Meadows, Bay of Islands. There is a dire need for such a facility in this area and a licence should be granted to the proponent of this project immediately.' Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to point out that this petition has not only the support of the 970 people, which is a considerable number of people, who have signed that petition, but it also has the support of the Anglican Parish of Meadows through its rector, the Reverend Donald s. Morgan. It also has the support of Reverend Edward House, who is the chaplain of the Interfaith Home in Corner Brook, and he is also Secretary of the Pastoral Care Committee. It has the support of the West Newfoundland Local Employment Assistance and Development Corporation, and it has the support of the very important, Mr.

Speaker, Western Memorial Hospital Corporation through its administrator. They feel that there is a real need for this type of facility in the Bay of Islands area, Mr. Speaker. They feel that at the hospital acute care beds are being taken up by chronic care patients, and a facility such as this to accommodate those patients would be far less expensive to the government. Ll488 May 2, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, needless to say, I strongly support this petition. I have indicated my support over the past year that I have been representing the district of the Bay of Islands.

I have been in contact with the Department of Health, Mr. Speaker, and indicated that support. There is a demonstrated need for such a facility. I respectfully request my colleague, the bon. the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey), to give this petition immediate and careful consideration. In considering the application, Mr. Speaker, I would ask my colleague, the Minister of Health, to take into careful consideration the fact that Mr.

Brake has been seeking an application to operate this senior citizens boarding home for upwards of two years now, and I would respectfully request that very careful consideration be given to this application. KR. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? DR. TWOMEY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to thank the bon. minister for his clear and succinct presentation about that petition. We, in the Department of Health, are very cognizant that we have to expand our licensed boarding homes outside St.

John's and hopefully cover all areas in the Province where now there appears to be a deficit in that particular type of special service that is necessary for those who need a little bit more than the home care they are able to get in their particular No. 25 R1488

homes. As you know, and as all members of this House know, there has been a special recommendation from the Royal Commission that we expand these licensed nursing homes all over the Province. At the present time, there are over 300, I believe 350-odd, requests that we license these boarding homes. A report is due in very shortly on the requirements of the Province, and that includes Labrador. There are many, many areas of the Province that have no nursing homes, or such facilities, and we are anxious to meet the requirements of these particular areas. We have allocated money this year to open new beds.

That we intend to do, but we intend to do so on the advice and recommendations of a group who have specialized knowledge in this field. That group have being commissioned by the Department of Health. They do not have headquarters or an office in the Province of Newfoundland, and it was our intention that this group would play a very important

part in advising us as to where to place and license these homes. That will be done, and it will be announced by the Department of Health. Furthermore, it was a recommendation of the Royal Commission that these licensed nursing homes not be extremely large. Because if they are extremely large, they appear to be institutions more than provide a hom~ environment which so many of these citizens need and enjoy. It gives them many advantages, advantages of the home care that it is very difficult for a large institution to provide.

All of you who have read the Royal Ll489 May 2, 1986 Vol XL Commission Report are well aware that the recommendation has been between four and six beds, maybe eight in special circumstances. All these homes have to meet the special requirements of all the departments of government: Fire protection, they have to meet all the requirements in the health care field, suitable space for each and every individual, suitable bathroom accommodations, dining accommodations, recreational accommodations. I have taken heed of the request of my hon. friend and a decision will be made when we have all these reports.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: The fact that the hon. the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Blanchard) had to present this petition this morning relating to senior citizens' homes at least sort of restores some faith, some confidence in my mind that at least the homes are not being allocated in the way that they have been over the past little while, namely, on a very political basis.

So that restores at least some confidence in my mind, that the hon. member was frustrated, in the same way that we are frustrated over here, with the need and demand for senior citizens' homes. The hon. minister mentions that the Royal Commission on Health made some recommendations re nursing homes. The problem seems to be, though, that this No. 25 Rl489

government seems to be very lax, very slow, in terms of acting on the recommendations of the Royal Commission. Right after the Royal Commission made the recommendations, it seems to me that the Department of Health set up another Committee to conduct a further · study. The Royal Commission on Health recommended that the Province look into setting up nursing homes, and it seems as though the Department of Health did not believe that, they did not believe that recommendation and proceeded to set up their own committee. There was a freeze put on and, as far as I know, that freeze is still in existence.

Whenever you contact the Dpeartment of Health you hear that there is a freeze, pending the results of the latest study, and that study was initiated about a year ago. I think the very fact that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard) had to present that petition this morning shows what pressure he has been under from his constituents, certainly this particular one from Meadows, to construct this senior citizens home. the same pressure that the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) has been under, the same pressure that other members over here have been under, the member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk) , the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush). Everywhere we look there are people being delayed, being hung-up in terms of trying to build facilities for their senior citizens because of the inaction, because of the lethargy of this particular government. Now, Mr. Speaker, rather than hiding behind any studies, whether they be the Royal Commission or whether they be the present committee that is set up, this government should certainly start L1490 May 2, 1986 Vol XL action and start establishing a priority around this Province as to where they are going to put these senior citizens facilities.

It is one thing for the Royal Commission to recommend nursing homes, but it is another thing for the Department of Health to be hiding behing that commission and putting a freeze on, saying, 'We are going to await the results of another study. ' That is where they sit now; they have been awaiting the results of another study for goodness knows how long. Mr. Speaker, I would like for some action to take place. Certainly I would like to see the senior citizens home built in the hon. gentleman's district and several others in other districts, in Fogo Island, in Bonavista North.

People have gone through the same process that Kr. Brake, I think it was, has gone through for two and three years, thinking that he is going to get the place. It is time for action, it is time for the minister's department to level with these people and tell them just what the situation is, whether or not they are going to get the home. The fact that the Minister of Labour was forced to stand in his place this morning to present a petition I believe shows and describes the utter frustration that has been experienced right throughout the Provice, Mr. Speaker, in this very vital area of nursing homes.

Orders of the Day MR. MARSHALL: Motion 8, Mr. Speaker. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Energy to introduce a bill, ''An Act To Amend The Petroleum And No. 25 Rl490

Natural Gas Act," carried, (Bill No. 32). On motion, Bill No. (32) read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.. MARSHALL: Order 16, Bill No. 3. MR. SPEAKER: Order 16, "An Act To Amend The Department of Environment Act" (Bill No. 3). The debate was adjourned by the bon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush), and he has thirteen minutes left. The bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am just looking for a copy of that bill. As I recall it, it is a bill relating to the environment and it imposes fines with respect to municipalities. Just to refresh my memory, Mr.

Speaker, the explanatory notes on the bill states: 'the bill would provide that costs incurred by the minister in cleaning up of the environment where pollution occurs are a debt due to and recovered by Her Majesty from the person or municipal authorities that the minister considers responsible for the occurrence of the pollution.' I was saying, Mr. Speaker, that this bill is laudable and we will certainly support it.

This bill is praise worthy in terms of preventing further pollution to our environment and certainly making municipalities aware of their responsibilities in a more forceful manner and making municipalities aware of their responsibilities in terms of keeping the environment clean in the areas under their jurisdiction. Ll491 May 2, 1986 Vol XL I was po.inting out, Mr.

Speaker, that though this bill certainly deserves praise in terms of encouraging councils and enforcing upon councils their responsibility in terms of keeping the environment clean, I said I believe that we had to proceed immediately in terms of cleaning up our environment and in terms of cleaning up of landscape. I said prevention is one thing but, we must also engage in a campaign of correction, if you will, a remedial campaign, a campaign of cleaning up the mess that is around our environment right now that is causing pollution and contamination and that is indeed an eyesore. Mr.

Speaker, I mentioned, in . particular, the mess that our Trans-Canada is in is disgraceful to the Province, right from st. John's to Port aux Basques. I encourage the minister to immediately initiate some campaign to clean up our Trans-Canada because as long as it is kept the way it is, then it is going to remain that way. I think we should initiate a clean-up campaign and that would create thousands of jobs for students, young people, right from here to Port aux Basques.

So I believe the minister should immediately initiate a clean-up campaign on the Trans-Canada and on other major secondary roads in the Province. Wherever there is a road in Newfoundland, we can be sure there is a mess of confetti and garbage because somehow, either we have not brought the full force of the law to bear on law breakers in this respect, or we have not conducted a sufficiently strong enough educational campaign to inform our people and to enlighten our people No. 25 Rl491

of the necessity of keeping our environment clean. I believe that that has to be an aspect of any programme of clean-up, a strong education campaign to inform our people and to encourage our people so they will realize the necessity of keeping our environment attractive and clean. I feel very strongly about that, Mr. Speaker.

So I hope that when the minister responds that he certainly will give attention to these two items, or one item, if you will, one item with an A under it and that is the necessity of keeping the Trans-Canada Highway and area clean and other major secondary roads throughout the Province clean. The location of a lot of waste disposal sites close to the Trans-Canada Highway was another item I mentioned. In the Summer, particularly at the time of our tourist season, it was not very pleasant driving through a lot of those areas.

When the wind was in the right direction and you got smoke coming across the highway, that brings with it a smell or stench. It is not very pleasant. I am just wondering what the rules and regulations are with respect to the location of waste disposal areas in terms of its distance from the Trans-Canada Highway.

Maybe these waste disposal areas are not built in accordance with the latest technology with respect to waste disposal areas because I mentioned the Terra Nova National Park, which seems to be very close the Trans-Canada Highway. but you never get any kind of an odour from that particular waste disposal are~ at least I have not noticed it as I have in other areas.

So maybe it is the way that they are constructed; maybe Ll492 May 2, 1986 Vol XL if they were built according to the latest technology it would not matter how close they were to the Trans-Canada but it is certainly something I noticed over the past couple of years, particularly in a couple of areas of the Province, and I refer to an area around Whi tbourne and another area around Clarenville. Around these two areas in particular there seems to be a terrible odour, a terrible smell, a terrible stench almost everytime you pass by these areas.

Certainly we cannot litter the Trans-Canada Highway or have it dotted with waste disposal areas, making it very difficult for people to drive through. So, I hope that the minister will address that issue as well. I think the third issue to which I referred. maybe should have been number two in terms of putting some coherence to what I am saying, would be the placing waste disposal containers along the Trans-Canada to discourage our people from indiscriminately throwing things out through their car windows into ditches along the way. I do not believe that is the situation now.

There might be one or two places where the containers are located but. it certainly is not frequent enough, and I do not believe that they are being attended to on a yearly basis, that they are being emptied and the site is being properly taken care of. So these are two things, to clean up the highway and to have adequately and properly spaced along the highway the proper waste disposal facilities so that people are encouraged to throw away their things. to cast away their garbage into these waste disposal areas.

I do not believe that that is something that we have around the Province to any kind of substantial degree No. 25 R1492

at this particular point in time. So that is an area in which the minister's department can certainly involve itself and see to it that our people are provided with the appropriate method and the appropriate things necessary to keep our envirnoment clean, particularly our Trans-Canada Highway. I think, Mr . Speaker, that, in essence, was what I said in my speech last day.

I have nothing new to add today, just simply to reinforce these three areas in which I believe the minister's department can work to clean up our existing environment and to encourage our people of the necessity of keeping our environment in its natural form, and particularly of keeping our landscape in an attractive and beautiful form in the way that it was meant to be.

I believe if the minister undertook these three things that I talked about, we would go a long ways towards promoting and encouraging a clean environment and an attractive landscape for the people of this Province It would also aid in attracting back the tourists that come to this Province year after year. So, Mr. Speaker, having said these few words, I will take my place and eagerly await the minister's reply. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: The minister is anxious to clue this one up, and I do not blame L1493 May 2, 1986 Vol XL him.

We will not delay him long. There are just a couple of things that I wanted to get into the record more by way of reinforcing what my friend for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) has said. We, of course, support the principle that if people are out there polluting, it is they who should pay for their pollution. We have no argument with that at all and we commend the minister and the administration for the initiative in bringing in the bill with that principle as its principle. I believe the matter of the ability of municipalities to pay has been mentioned. It needs to be reinforced.

It is not a matter for the Minister of Environment (Mr. Butt) directly except in his capacity as a person who sits at the Cabinet table. But it is surely a matter that must be of concern to him. The squeeze is very much on municipal authorities. Now, this is not to be an excuse for them to pollute. That is not my point. They must be responsible. There is no excuse for them going out there and polluting the environment.

However, you will find that, and I am about to give you a prime example, in some instances the polluting is inadvertent and unavoidable because they do not have the money to address the problem properly. I give to the 'minister the example of the St. Jacques/Coombs Cove Council, which includes the communities of Coombs Cove, Red Cove, Boxey, Mose Ambrose,' English Harbour West and St. Jacques on the West side of .Fortune Bay. For a number of years they have been getting recommendations from the minister's department saying you No. 25 Rl493

need a new dump; you need a new area for disposing of your garbage. The Council said, 'We have no problem with that. We have just got no money.' So for a number of years they have been after the Department of Municipal Affairs for the appropriate grant to replace that dump. The dump is on the road near that club at the intersection of the Belleoram/English Harbour Road there, the club that Mr. May used to own. You know the one I am talking about. The dump is not far from that establishment.

You cannot drive that mile or two of road from that intersection into English Harbour without almost going through the dump now because the garbage is strewn all over the road; it is blowing all over the place, because there is no effective containment area. It could be alleged that that council is polluting. They are polluting very inadvertently. They are polluting because they are going out and they dumping in what is being designated as the garbage dump but the garbage dump is no longer adequate for their purposes. The minister's department has said that.

The Department of Municipal Affairs acknowledges that to be the case but there is no money forthcoming to help the council out of its problem. So I could see that in a technical sense, under this bill, that council could be charged with polluting. If that were the case, it would be most regretable because the circumstances that I have outlined are recognized by everybody and everybody recognTzes they need to be corrected. I am sure that is not the intent Ll494 May 2, 1986 Vol XL of the bill. The minister nods his approval. I would want him to acknowledge that when he stands up.

It is an issue that I wanted to flag because I foresee the possibility that well meaning municipal authorities may find themselves with another act to try and meet the requirements of without the financial wherewithal to do so. That is my concern. Now let me draw for the minister a couple of particular concerns that I have which I believe are at least peripherally related to the principle of the bill. I certainly hope so. During the past few days, with the nice weather, I have been roaming down behind the building here, around Kent's Pond.

Through, I believe, some Canada Works projects over the last few years, there was a nice path put through there. It is a great place for the public service and visitors to the building to stroll. It is a very pleasant . area down there. I say to him it is getting less pleasant by the day because there are no garbage receptacles down there. While this is a very particular example, it reinforces the larger point my friend was making.

If you, a member of the public, are walking through the area that is already strewn with garbage, there is not much constraint on you against throwing away another bag or another milk container. If you are walking through an area that is absolutely manicured clean, there is a great compulsion to keep that bit of garbage with you until you get somewhere where you can dispose of it properly. Perhaps I could have the attention No. 25 Rl494

of the Minister of Fisheries just for a moment. He may recognize the area I am talking about. Going over between Bay Verte Junction and Deer Lake, up in the birch areas where you look out over the lake, there used to be a garbage container there on the side of the road and it was always - packed full in the Summer. There was always one garbage barrel there and about four times the volume sitting beside it all the time. I often wondered why, if it was because it was not being serviced often enough or because there were not enough barrels there or what. It was always an eyesore .

I do not know if it is still the case in the Summer or not but I know as of two or three years ago it was still there. Again, reinforcing the point my friend has made, the point I wish to make is that the appropriate authorities ought to ensure that there is adequate opportunity for the person who wants to be environmentally conscious to be so .

It is one thing to have legislation and to preach but, if they walk through the woods down here or if they drive across the highway and there is not reasonable opportunity for them to dispose of their garbage in an environmentally acceptable way, they are going to do it in some other way. I would hope the minister, if he thinks fit, might want to address that concern that we have and I· am sure he has too, when he closes debate on the bill. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): If the bon. minister speaks now he closes the debate. The bon. the Minister of the Environment. Ll495 Kay 2, 1986 Vol XL MR.

BUTT: Thank you, very much, Mr . Speaker. I thank hon. members for their input into the proposed amendments to the Department of the Environment Act to increase the maximum fines and to also provide government with a mechanism to recover costs incurred when cleaning up hazardous wastes and spills . I think out of all the participants in this debate perhaps some of the ·better points were made by the bon. member for Bonavista North (Mr . Lush), reinforced by the bon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) . Very legitimate concerns were raised by the two bon. members.

Before I respond to that I would like to go back and deal with some of the issues that were raised by other members who spoke in this debate. The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) wanted to know why municipalities were specifically identified in these amendments.

That is basically because in many municipalities they do not have the wherewithal or the fiscal capacity to deal with major spills or anything like that so, with the approval of those amendments, the government, my department, can go in, have a contractor clean-up spills or anything like that in a municipality and, in fact, charge the appropriate persons, company, whatever, after . That is why municipalities are identified there. While I cannot cite any case specifically, we have had a number of minor spills in municipalities No. 25 Rl495

and it was LepoLted by a conceLned public. Of COULSe, in OLdeL to maintain a good enviLonment it will LequiLe input fLom not only goveLnment OL municipalities but all ouL citizens. AnotheL matteL Laised by the hon. the membeL foL WindsoL - Buchans was the matteL of the tLanspoLtation of hazaLdous goods. KL. SpeakeL, that is Leally not Lelevant in this debate because it comes undeL the TLanspoLtation Of DangeLous Goods Act.

We have enabling legislation along with the fedeLal legislation and if anybody is going to be tLanspoLting hazaLdous materials, say fLom one conununity to anotheL in the PLovince, it is all logged, licence numbeLs of the vehicles, names of the dLiVeLs, all that stuff is compiled befoLe the movement actually takes place. If it is going to CLOss pLovincial boundaLies, once again, theLe aLe pLovisions in that legislation to take caLe of it.

I do not wish to elaboLate on it a gLeat deal heLe but I think it is sufficient to say that theLe is a pLovision now in legislation under the DepaLtment of TLanspoLtation foL the tLanspoLtation of dangerous goods and it is accepted country-wide. All pLovinces and teLLitoLies have miLLOL legislation OL enabling legislation with the fedeLal goveLnment. TheLe was one incoLLect statement made, that the OppeL Salmon Hydro Development was exempted fLom an enviLonmental impact statement. That is not corLect.

The OppeL Salmon did go thLough a full enviLonmental impact statement and, in fact, Levegetation and LestoLation is going on Light now in that aLea. And, of couLse, all majoL pLojects in the PLovince Ll496 May 2, 1986 Vol XL almost without exception, unless there may be extenuating ciLcumstances, including major Loads and eveLything else is subject to the pLovincial legislation, and environmental assessment legislation in this PLovince, I think, can stand up to any Legulations or assessment in the countLy. KL.

SpeakeL, also duLing the debate theLe weLe some points brought up which were not relevant, but since they were bLought up, peLhaps I should speak to them veLy bLiefly. On the spray progranune, foL example, the proponent, in this case the Department of Forest Resources and Lands, does a real good job in informing the public where the spray progLanunes are going to take plae. If it is in a sensitive area, for example, fenitrothion is not used. RatheL, they use BT to get a hold on this hemlock looper that is destroying a lot of forests in the Province.

And I think it is fair to say, as well, that our spray progLanune, which has been a good forest management tool, has worked well here, as evidenced by the fact that we are not spraying this year for the bud worm. There are a couple of other points that require just a few conunents. The hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward) tried to relate, and I do not know how he could possibly do it, the effect that PCB stoLage in Stephenville was having on the tourism industry out there. I find it very difficult to address that. There are certain areas in the Province where we have this material stored.

It is done in accordance with our rules and regulations, and in the places I have had an opportunity to visit, this No. 25 Rl496

material is stored very safely. We can be very proud of the fact that the officials in my department have taken a very active inventory of this material that is around the Province, and it is checked on a regular basis. On the matter of a blowout or a major oil spill in the Hibernia development, I would just simply like to say to the hon. member that we have a very comprehensive contingency plan in place.

Of course it would not come under the purview of the Provincial Department of Environment, in the event of an unlikely accident, until it got to shore; the Coast Guard and those people would be actively involved in that. The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle was entertaining as usual, but he made a few irresponsible statements which are really not worthy of response . But there have been some good points raised by the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush). I would like to tell the -hon. member - I am sure he is in the precincts of the House - that his points are well taken.

There is a problem with litter along the highway. In recent year, we have introduced a number - of programmes in co-operation with other government departments. I can cite, for example, the district of Bay of Islands, where the people in that area of the Province have done a tremendous job in cleaning up the environment over there. As a matter of fact, they ran a very successful programme and were responsible for cleaning up about 80 per cent of the abandoned and derelict vehicles that were left around. So There is some work going on in that area.

Obviously, to put litter boxes or Ll497 May 2, 1986 Vol XL garbage cans along all major highways in the Province would be a very, very major and costly undertaking not only in the first instance, putting them in place, but it would take just one tremendous amount of money to police it properly. We encourage and support municipalities in doing the kinds of things raised by the hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons), in that in areas of leisure and pleasure, litter boxes and garbage cans are provided and they are checked on a regular basis .

It may not be often enough, but municipalities, I think, only have so much resources, as well, to do these things. So there is quite a bit of work being done. A lot of it is being done within municipal boundaries and, of course, in parks and other leisure areas. There is a problem right across the Trans-Canada here in the Province with waste disposal sites. I recognize it.

I can tell the hon. member that in the few locations where they are close to the Trans-Canada Highway it evolved over a long period of time, and because of the rerouting of the highway itself, or upgrading, whereby the road was elevated when it was upgraded, the trees that hid the disposal sites from the highway have been cut down. There is new growth coming up but, nevertheless, there are obnoxious odors in some areas. In fact, you do even have to go as far as Whitbourne, because if you are driving along by the Foxtrap Access Road, you will find it there as well - in my district, I might add.

There are some recognize them. No. 25 problems, and I But we have very R1497

specific guidelines laid down now for the development of waste disposal sites, very rigid. They certainly conform to standards that have been accepted in other Canadian provinces, with much higher populations than the Province of Newfoundland. As I have said, guidelines for the development of waste disposal sites are strictly adhered to now with all new developments. There are some problem areas around the Province. The bon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage mentioned one. There are others down on the Burin Peninsula and, in fact, in some other regions of the Province as well. Mr.

Speaker, having addressed the few major points that were raised by bon. members who participated in this debate, I have great pleasure in moving second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Environment Act, •• read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No.3) MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): Order 20, Bill No. 15. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Farm Development Loan Act". (Bill No. 15). MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the bon. the Minister of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development (Mr. R. Aylward) I have much pleasure in Ll498 May 2, 1986 Vol XL bill. The hon. is unavoidably on government introducing this minister today absent, he is business elsewhere. This bill, I would hope, Mr. Speaker, will get speedy passage. It is a bill that provides that monies coming into the Farm Development Loan Board would be paid into the Consolidated Revenue Fund of the Province at such intervals as the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may direct.

The Farm Development Loan -Board makes loans, which is obviously the purpose of it, and when a board makes loans, of course, there are repayments. Those repayments come in, and heretofore they have been credited in the books of the Farm Development Loan Board itself. As is the practice for sound accounting purposes and reasonable control, the appropriate place for this money to be deposited is to the Consolidated Revenue Fund, from whence the original loan comes. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Just some short remarks on the bill. We have no problem with that. It has to be done, and so on, but a few comments on the Farm Development Loan Board and farm development itself in the Province. In looking through the budget and estimates I notice an amount of monies allotted for the Loan Board for loans, advances and investments, and grants and No. 25 R1498

subsidies that are also allocated. We would hope that those monies are going to be used wisely to help develop farming in the Province. Over . on the West Coast of the Province we have a number of people who have been involved in the farming industry for a number of years, and they need and require as much support as possible in that industry as there are, at the present time, a number of problems they have run into with prices and pricing, and so on and so forth. So it is good to see that we have some programmes that address that.

I would hope that these programmes will be expanded in the future to meet the needs of the farming industry in Newfoundland . I think the farming industry can go a long way in this Province. We have made a great deal of progress, but I feel it can go a lot further than it has gone . I think it is an industry that we probably do not take into account as much as we should, and I think it should be pushed more. It is good to see that a Loan Board has been set up, and that there are grants set up to help those farmers.

I believe it is an industry which, if pushed, could help alleviate many -of the problems we have with unemployment in this Province. I have seen some good farms in places where you would not expect to see them established, but through the hard work of a lot of hard working people, they have been able to -establish them in these areas I think there efforts should be fully supported. I think we should be pushing and pushing to expand and grow our own vegetables and so on, our own food.

Again, the problem has been in the past that we had a farming industry but it was not taken as seriously as Ll499 May 2, 1986 Vol XL it should have been. I think the future bodes well for it, but we have to push it as much as possible. We have to support the farmers in this Province as much as possible. I notice that an educational programme in agriculture has been arranged for the Summer for a number of young students who are coming into St. John • s. I think it is a good move and it will help young people who would like to get into the farming industry. We should be pushing that programme much as possible .

I would even go so far as to suggest that teachers in high schools should have discussions on farming and so on, especially in areas of the Province where it can be pushed, so that more people will want to get into it. I think it can be a partial answer to the problem we have on this Island of importing goods all the time, as we are doing. I think it should be supported . On that note I will conclude my comments. I think the bill is self-explanatory. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I support totally the comments made by my hon. colleague.

I do not intend to get into the specifics of farming as such, but I am wondering about the mechanics of this arrangement. The minister indicates that people who have borrowed money from the Farm Development Loan Board have, until now, been making their repayments to the Loan Board. No. 25 Rl499

What is wrong with that? One would assume that the Newfoundland Farm Board would turn the money collected from debtors over to consolidated revenue fund anyway. What has been happening to these repayments up until now? It seems like a simplistic point, a moot point but, based on the minister's comments, I would have to assume that up until now debtors of the Farm Loan Board would have paid the Farm Loan Board and then the Farm Loan Board by some mechanism, possibly annually or whatever, would turn that money back over to consolidated revenue.

One could ask the question, would this apply to the Rural Development Association? It is the same principle, I suppose, it is Newfoundland government money. The Newfoundland government, through Rural Development, makes funds available to people seeking loans. The people receiving the loans then make their repayments to Rural Development which, one way or another, finds its way back into the Newfoundland Treasury. Is the government thinking of adopting the same principle for Rural Development, for the Newfoundland Development Corporation?

All the funding bodies or corporations which have been granting loans to people up until now, the debtors have paid the money back to the organization or the Crown Corporation, or whatever, they borrowed it from, the mechanism was in place. If we are going on the principle of the Farm Loan Board, as pointed out by the minister, can we expect the same thing to apply to other bodies that lend money on behalf of the Newfoundland Government? And then. the question also, What will the mechanism be for a specific debtor to repay his loan? The minister can come back.

LlSOO May 2, 1986 Vol XL because I am not going very long. MR. MARSHALL: No, I am listening to the bon. member. MR. FLIGHT: What will be the mechanism used by the debtors to repay the money to the Consolidated Revenue Fund? If the minister would come back to his seat and address himself to these specific concerns as they relate specifically to the amendment to the bill that he just presented, I would like to hear his comment on those. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): If th~ minister speaks now, he closes the debate. The bon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: I will respond to the bon. member's enquiries first. He asked, Is this going to apply to all funding bodies? Well, I am sure, as the bon. gentleman knows, there is really only one fundin body in instances such as this. The funding body is the Province of Newfoundland. And, of course, the money of the Province of Newfoundland, its general revenues, are held in its Consolidated Revenue Fund. So, having paid block funding to the Farm Development Board, or any board, by way of grant or provisions in the estimates, then those moneys are taken by the board which manages it and pays it out by way of loan.

Now, in turn, the inter-relationship of the borrower is with the board, so the borrower pays it back. So the board is not the funding body, it No. 25 RlSOO

is the government, and it comes back into the Consolidated Revenue Fund. Obviously, particularly in financial matters, you have to have the appropriate financial control, and that is the only reason for it. I believe this mechanism pertains to the Rural Development Authority, as well. And it certainly has to apply for> most of the bodies, unless there is a specific authodty or board which is self-generating in funds, of which there are very few. With respect to what the bon. member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward) indicated, just a few conunen ts on that .

We agree with what the bon. gentleman said, and government fully supports the agricultural industry in this Province. It fully supports this particular board itself, which it has funded over the years with increasing amounts of money from time to time, because we realize the importance of agriculture, in the same way as we created, the Progressive Conservative governments, the Rural Development Authority in this Province. In fact, this department is Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. I think it needs to be stated every time, Mr.

Speaker, in all fairness, that it was the Progressive Conservative Party that established the Rural Development Authority in this Province and gave extra support to the farmers in the agricultural areas. I think, in closing, it would be only fair to mention that in the presence of the existing minister (Mr. R. Aylward) we have the strongest Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development that the Province has ever had.

In the agricultural field it is quite evident from the type of support he enjoys amongst the farming conununity in this Ll501 May 2, 1986 Vol XL Province, and the steps that the department has taken under his direction to enhance farming in the Province of Newfoundland . I .think one of the major indications of this was what occurred last year when they had the agdcultural fair here in the St. John's Memorial Stadium which was a complete and absolute outstanding success . I am not sure whether it made money or not as such, but it came very close to it and that in itself, I think, is a monumental success .

It certainly is a feather in the cap of the department and, in particular, the bon. the member for> Kilbr:>ide (Mr. Aylward), who is very conversant, who knows the farming industry. As a matter of fact, I can remember last year when they had a competition among farmers out in the Kilbride area and the bon. the member for Kilbride entered it, I think it was furrowing or plowing, but whatever it was he took first prize from judges who did not know who did the plowing but just judged from the results itself. The bon. gentleman came out head and shoulders over everybody.

So he is a person who knows the farming industry, knows it well, has the support of the farming industry, and this is another one of the bills that he is bringing in to make his department even more efficient than it has been in the past. So, Hr. Speaker, having said that, I thank the hon. gentlemen for their constructive remarks. HR. FLIGHT: Before the minister moves second reading, I have to say in fairness the minister did not address the concerns that I raised. I asked him what has been happening to now? How has the Farm Loan Board been returning the monies they No. 25 Rl501

have collected from creditors to the Consolidated Revenue Fund? MR. MARSHALL: My understanding of it, Mr. Speaker, is that it has actually been returned. You do not have a board, an agency of government set up that can sequester money onto itself and keep it. This is for the purpose of regularizing, really, the processing, and providing specific and direct legislative guidelines which are necessary when you are dealing with substantial amounts of monies. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, by government action by apparent? MR.

MARSHALL: when did the desire or the need for this government become The hon. gentleman should not imagine that there is an ulterior motives. MR. FLIGHT: It does in Committee. I will ask the question. MR. MARSHALL: Do not threaten me. I do not mind. We will go to Committee for ever and a day and I will give you the same answer as I am giving you now. The hon. gentleman should not get so politically paranoid that he imagines, like spiders crawling up the wall all the time, there is some ulterior motive behind every bill.

I mean, this is a pure and simple bill brought in by a government that is very sensitive to the rural areas of this Province, to the farmers and agriculture. and it is purely and simply there for the purpose of making it more effective. MR. FLIGHT: Is the mechanism in place for the Ll502 May 2, 1986 Vol XL individual debtor to repay the loan to the Consolidated Revenue Fund now as opposed to the board as it used to be? MR. MARSHALL: No, no, that is not the way . Mr. Speaker, that is not the way it is. I can tell the bon. gentleman that nobody is running away with the monies.

When a farmer comes in and makes a payment, there is nobody down in the Rural Development Authorities, there is nobody down in caucus who is running away and putting it in their own bank account or anything like that. MR. FLIGHT: You are sure of 'Bill'? MR. MARSHALL: that, are you, Yes. As you say, why does he not go and pay it into the Consolidated Revenue Fund?

You have some farmer out in Meadows or somewhere like that who comes in to get a loan and they say to the farmer, •well, boy, look what you got to do is pay that to the Consolidated Revenue Fund. • I am sure he would be looking around for the next ten years to find out what the Consolidated Revenue Fund is. I only know what the Consolidated Revenue Fund is because I have been operating in government. The bon. gentleman has been in government and he obviously does not know what the Consolidated Revenue Fund is. If the hon. gentleman was in making a payment he would be wandering all over the city everywhere.

The point of the matter is you got to have a focal office that these farmers can deal with when the, come in. They pay it into the Farm Development Board and that has an office, which is in a building, as the hon. gentleman No. 25 Rl502

would understand, not office in the sense of an office like the hon . gentleman operates. It is in a physical building, you go in through the door of that building, you go up the stairs or up on the elevator, you open up a door and there is a sign there that says "Farm Development Board, for his convenience, so he knows. Now if the bon. gentleman had his way, if they carne in and were told the Consolidated Revenue Fund, I mean, what would happen then? MR. FLIGHT: What happens now? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would the bon. member please take his seat? I am sorry, I have to intervene here.

In the examination of clause by clause of the bill in Committee there is all kind of flexibility and the bon. member can get into that. I am not in any way trying to stymie debate by the bon. member, but if he wishes to get information during second reading he should really rise and ask a question, because in third reading there is all kinds of flexibility and it is rather informal . But during second reading the rules have to be followed. MR. MARSHALL: I will wind up by just saying I am trying to test my patience. I was doing an experiment then.

I was just seeing whether I could make the bon. gentleman understand. That is all I was doing. On a Friday morning I like to talk temperately. I do not like to get political. I complimented the bon. member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward) for the constructive way in which he addressed the bill, which he Ll503 May 2, 1986 Vol XL certainly did and he did it in a very fine way. And the hon . gentleman, I responded to his questions . All I can say is, you know, the~ pay the money into the board.

They go in, as I said, and I will not go through it again because you know what I mean by office and building, and there is a desk there and they go into the place from whence they borrowed and they pay it back. That is what they do. What happens then, of course, I suppose is they take the money and they give them a receipt . Then the gentleman takes the receipt and he goes. Then what happens? The person who takes the receipt, I would assume, takes the money and puts it into a bank account. Then he or she makes up the bank deposit. Then it is taken by the financial process to the bank.

It is deposited into the bank . Then it goes into the bank, and when it is in the bank it is the Farm Development Loan Board. The han. gentleman gentleman would remember, from the way I am talking, years ago when he was first starting off his educative process, you know, 'Look Jane . Look Dick. See Jane. See Dick . See Graham. See Beaton. Look what happens. ' This is what happens, Mr. Speaker. Then they go and they put it into a bank account and it is a Farm Development Bank account and the money is there. Believe it or not, Mr.

Speaker, the money stays there until such time as the Chairman of the Board and the Board brings it in or pays it over to the government. Now, when it is paid over to the government it is taken from that bank account and is put into another bank account and that is the Consolidated Revenue account. Then that is the general account No. 25 Rl503

for the people of the Province of Newfoundland. That is what is going to happen. That is what has been happening and what this is doing will regularize it, will regularize and give legislative sanction to the procedure that has been going on. MR. FLIGHT: So they had had no legislative procedure? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! KR. MARSHALL: No. I am not one of these people - the hon. gentleman and I would think the distinguished member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) would not agree with this - who believes that everything has to be legislated.

But there are certain people like Auditors General and certain types of lawyers - not the real good ones - and accountants, God bless them, who feel that everything has to be regularized in statute and that is what we are doing. Now I propose a statute and I have hope. I have explained to another statue in another sense. So, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Farm Development Loan Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 15) MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, we will give the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications (Mr. Russell) an opportunity to see if he can get through to the heads of the official Opposition. I call Order 21, Bill No. 25. Ll504 May 2, 1986 Vol XL Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Real Estate Trading Act To Provide For The Establishment Of The Real Estate Foundation". (Bill No. 25). MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications. MR. RUSSELL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise with a great deal of pleasure to introduce for second reading a bill,

An Act To Amend The Real Estate Trading Act. I think it is a very progressive and very forward piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, and one that the real estate people across this Province have been lobbying for for several years. Mr. Speaker, originally the Real Estate Trading Act became law, I think it was in 1964, to provide some protection to consumers, because I think every member in this Legislature will agree that the biggest decision, perhaps of a lifetime, as was said I believe by the bon. member for Bonavista Borth (Mr. Lush) during the estimate debates, is that of purchasing a home.

At that time the original Real Estate Trading Act provided for real estate people to be bonded and to get a licence and thus to show, I suppose, they had some expertise and some knowledge of the real estate industry. That has gone on for some years, Mr. Speaker, and I suppose like everything else, the real estate industry has grown and grown and grown over the years and now there are many more companies, certainly many more real estate agency people than there were in 1964, for example. No. 25 Rl504

Mr. Speaker, as it is at the present time the deposits that the consumer makes in the purchase of a home goes into a trust account. It is non-interest bearing and thus the trust companies or the banks, or whatever the financial institution might be, gets the use of this money. I understand from the real estate people that we are talking about over a one year period approximately $5 million that is in and out.

Not much of it is long term necessarily, but as bon. members know, and some of the members are and have been involved in the real estate business, but it is approximately a $5 million bank account if you will. And so, as I said, the trust companies and the banks or whatever get the benefit of using this money and the real estate people now, as I said, have been lobbying to have this money put into an interest bearing account. This, I suppose, Mr.

Speaker, is the whole reason, the whole principle of this bill, which would establish a real estate foundation wherein the monies would be deposited in an interest bearing account and a board would be established whereby they could use the interest only on these accounts for purposes which are outlined in the bill, and in particular

Section 53 which says, "The objects of the Foundation are to establish and maintain a fund and to use the proceeds thereof for the following purposes: (

a) to promote continuing education among those engaged in real estate trading." I think, Mr. Speaker, that is a very important thing. As the bon. member for Bonavista North indicated when he attended consideration of my estimates, maybe where it all should start, so to speak, in terms of consumer LlSOS May 2, 1986 Vol XL matters, real estate being part of it, perhaps is in the schools, with the education programmes, and I agree with him.

I think there has been a kind of a start made in that area, but perhaps it should start with people when they are at a younger age, before they have made the decision or indeed have reached the age where they know much about what they are going to be meeting in terms of buying a house, for example. And I would like to think that some of these funds will be used not only for the education directly for the real estate agents, so to speak, but the education of consumers as well. "(

b) to sponsor, support and promote research and to make recommendations affecting real estate trading; and (

c) to do all other things that are, in the opinion of the Foundation, incidental or conducive to the attainment of the objects set forth above." So what we are proposing, Mr. Speaker, is to set up an interest bearing account. This Foundation will be run, so to speak, by five people, a board, to be appointed by the minister, three of whom shall be from the real estate industry, one shall be a representative from my department, and one shall be a member from the public at large. One of the three from the · real estate industry shall be appointed chairman of that board. There is no provision, Mr.

Speaker, in this bill to pay the members of this board, I understand they will do it voluntarily. I suppose if there are out-of-pocket expenses incurred for meetings and travel and the natural things, then this bill will give them the authority to use monies from the interest to pay those incidental expenses. No. 25 RlSOS

The Foundation will be audited on an annual basis and have to make a report. The Superintendent of Real Estate of my department will have certain a~thorities and certain flexibility in monitoring, if you will, the Foundation- to ensure that they are doing the things as they should be doing them. Mr. Speaker, I think, that in gist, without getting into the nitty-gritty, if you will, of the bill, explains the principle of it. I am pleased, Mr. Speaker, as I said to be able to do this. I had the pleasure of attending the St.

John • s Real Estate Board annual dinner at Christmastime while they asked me a number of questions, the one thing that was on their minds, was where I stood and where government stood on making this amendment. I indicated to them at the time that I would do my best to have this introduced in the upcoming session of the Legislature. And in more informal discussions with them following the dinner, they were really delighted and really pleased. And I do not know about members on the Opposition side, Mr.

Speaker, but I know that members on government side, ministers and others, have received letters from various real estate companies and real estate agents lobbying for support for this amendment. I think it is a very forward piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, for the real estate industry in that the monies will be wisely spent, will provide for better education, in the broadest sense of the word, to help the real estate people directly and to help the consumers, maybe directly as well but certainly indirectly. It is a great pleasure for me, Mr. Ll506 May 2, 1986 Vol XL Speaker, t~ move second reading. MR. W.

CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, there is not much that can be said against this legislation. I think it is an excellent bill, but I have a few reservations which I will touch on during my few remarks. When one realizes, Mr.

Speaker, that the purchase of a house represents, in most cases, the life savings of a person, and a commitment for a large part of that person's future earnings, I think that the real estate business must be upgraded and some degree of professionalism be instilled in the industry, and I think that in recent years we have seen a move made in that respect. The minister mentioned the method by which this fund is being established and that is interest accruing on trust account deposit. He mentioned, I believe, a figure of $5 million over certain periods. I would have thought that the figure would have been higher.

When you realize the fact that these accounts are not interest bearing then, of course, that means and implies that the banks and lending institutions have been benefiting from these trust accounts. Because if they are not paying interest like they do on other accounts, whether it is a trust account or a general account, a checking account, these monies are being used by the lending institutions for which they are not paying any interest. I think it is an excellent idea to set up an interest bearing account No. 25 Rl506

in which these trust funds are deposited, and I think the use to which they are being put now, that is the establishment of a Real Estate foundation, is an excellent idea. MR. TULK: What is the purpose of it? MR. W. CARTER : The purpose of it is, Mr. Speaker, that at the present time, when a person buys a house, he or she makes a deposit, normally it is 5 per cent, and under the act that deposit is required to be deposited in a trust account in a lending institution, normally a bank, on which there is · no interest being paid.

I believe the minister mention~d $5 million as the figure, but it is a conservative one, I would think, and that means that over a period there has been at least $5 million as deposited in various trust accounts from which the lending institution is benefiting, but not the consumer nor the industry itself. I think it is an excellent idea to set up that kind of an arrangement. Like I said, there is no reason at all why the lending institutions should benefit from monies placed in trust accounts on which there is no interest being paid. I have some reservations, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to Subsection 2, paragraphs (a) (

b) and (c). As you will see in that

section the members of the board must be appointed by the minister. Now, before I go any further I should point out that this is going to be a pretty financially impressive organization, if that is what you call it. It is going to have a lot of money in the account. You are talking probably, over the years, of maybe as much as millions of dollars, and I think Ll507 May 2, 1986 Vol XL the integrity of that Foundation must be jealously guarded by the minister and by this House.

If there is the least suspicion that there is hanky-panky or if the people who are responsible for the administration of that board are anything but lily pure, then I am afraid that the integrity of the Foundation will be affected and it will probably leave itself open for all kinds of abuse, maybe charges of abuse and everything else . That is why I am a little concerned that the appointments to the board will be the prerogative of the minister. Now, granted the minister says in Subsection 2 (

b) that one person who is an employee of the department, the minister's Department of Consumer Affairs and Communications, will be a member of that board, as well as a person who is not licensed under the act but who shall represent the public at large. And, (

c) three persons licensed under the act and engaged in real estate trading. · I am wondering and maybe the minister can tell the House, when he winds up debate on this bill, on whose advise, for examp~e, will he appoint the person designated in Paragraphs b and c. That is, on whose advise, for example, will there be a person appointed to represent the public at large? The same thing applies with Paragraph c, the three people who will be appointed to act as part of that foundation representing the real estate industry itself.

I am not suggesting that this minister will do it, far be it from me to even suggest that he would even dare try to exert political influence on these appointments, but it might well be that some time in the future his successor might be so inclined and that is why I believe there should be some ~revision built into the No. 25 Rl507

act whereby that kind of political interference will not be tolerated, or at least it will not be left open. The appointment of the Real Estate Foundation, the board, will not be left open to the possibility of that kind of political abuse. So, Mr. Speaker, as I said, I support this bill with the reservations that I have just outlined. I believe it is a step forward.

I believe it will have the effect of still further professionalizing the real estate industry and, again I repeat, considering the fact that, like I said, a person buying a house or a young couple, ·not only are they going to invest in most cases their life savings but they are going to be committing a large part of their future earnings, and that is why I believe that the real estate industry should become as professional as it possibly can.

If the intent of this bill is carried through, then I believe it . will have the effect of educating to a greater extent the people who are involved in the real estate business. Again I repeat that the integrity of the board must be zealously guarded by the minister and by his department, by government. I think it is very, very important that the proper people be appointed, whether it is the minister's appointee or the person appointed on behalf of the public at large. I think it is very important that we have people .. of first class caliber appointed to these positions.

If not, I am afraid. like I said a moment ago. that whole thing could be jeopardized if the right appointments are not made. So, Mr. Speaker, I do not think on Ll508 May 2, 1986 Vol XL this side we can have too much to say against this bill. I hope that the minister, in his reply or in his summing up, will maybe give the House and the Commit tee some idea as to what his intentions are with respect to Subsection 2, paragraphs a, b and c. that is, the appointment of members to the board. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to have a few brief words on this piece of legislation to amend the real estate trading act, to establish or provide for the foundation that the real estate association has been looking for for quite a long time.

The main reason I want to do it and the main reason I have any awareness of it at all, I suppose, besides the matter being discussed in Cabinet some time ago when the bill was brought before Cabinet, is that I have had representations made to me by at least a dozen real estate agents that I can think of in my owrr constituency of Grand Falls and real estate agents from other parts of the Province. I gather that this has been a long time objective of that association. I think the member for Twillingate (Mr. W.

Carter) has amply described in simple terms what this legislation will do and of course the minister has outlined it in a little more detail. I am particularly impressed with the objectives of the foundation to promote continuing education among members of the real estate No. 25 Rl508

profession. I think that can only do a lot to provide improved service to the consumer, to sponsor and support research, to make recommendations that affect the real estate business in this Province and to do other things, of course, that would be, in opinion of the foundation, conducive to attaining all of those objectives. There are also going to be provisions, as the minister said, in the legislation for the foundation ·to be able to invest monies in any manner in which the trustees are authorized by law and there is also a notation there that the accounts of the foundation are to be audited annually.

That might address one of the questions the member for Twillingate raised when he says that the people who go on this board must be of impeccable character and there should not be any suspicions and so on and so forth. That provision being there, of course, the fact it has .to be audited annually by a C. A. and then reports of that audit have to be presented to the foundation itself and also to the Superintendent of Real Estate within the Department of Consumer Affairs. There were some other points that the member for Twillingate made that I wanted to briefly address.

It dealt mainly with the appointment of the board on the foundation. The minister will obviously respond to it to and will be the official spokesman on it but, just speaking from experience in respect to appointments of people to boards that government has the power to appoint, my suspicion is that the minister will work very closely with the Real Estate Association Ll509 May 2, 1986 Vol XL in appointing those three persons who must serve on the board, who are licenced under the act and engaged in real estate trading.

I would suspect that the minister would in all likelihood, as we do on other boards of this nature, ask the association for some nominees. They would submit some names, I presume, from which the minister would be able to choose. One of the other members is an employee of the Department of Consumer Affairs, probably in the Insurance Division or something like that more than likely but not necessarily, but somebody from the department. I do not think that is difficult to live with.

I am sure, in fact, the Real Estate Association itself are probably quite satisfied with these proposals because it has been done in consultation with them and, of course, at their urging. Not to be forgotten, Mr. Speaker, is that we are a bit behind in this, I guess. Most other provinces I understand have similar legislation or similar foundations in place. We have examples of our own in this Province. The Law Society has a foundation and I gather this would operate in a very similar way to the Law Society.

Of course the overall objective of where the present time the financial institutions are getting the benefit of the interest that is earned is something that all of us , I suspect , would be happy to try to change if there is any way possible at all. Now the foundation will get those benefits and be able to use the funds for educational purposes and therefore, to generally speaking, provide a better service to the consumer in this Province. No. 25 Rl509

So, Mr. Speaker, I simply wanted to take the opportunity, because I have had discussions with so many around the Province who are in the business and, in particular, in my own constituency of Grand Falls where I have at least talked to a dozen or probably in excess of a dozen and I have made myself a little bit familiar with what the proposal is all about, because of those reasons and specifically because I think it is a good piece of legislation, I simply wanted to record my support for the bill. I commend the minister for taking the action that he has in bringing this legislation into the House. MR.

FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK : Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I find it amazing that it looks like I am .the only person who is going to speak against this bill or at least some substantial parts of it. I have no objections to a foundation for the real estate people. I think that is fine if they want to have that. But I cannot understand why in God's name we are allowing them to steal what looks like $. 5 million a year from people who are purchasing houses and selling houses in this Province by virtue of this

Section 54, subsection (a). The minister has gotten up and says that there is approximately $5 million in these accounts on an annual basis and at 10 per cent interest, maybe it will not be as high as that, but on a 10 per cent interest basis, that is $. 5 million a year that will accrue to this foundation as L1510 May 2, 1986 Vol XL a result of this. But whose money is it? These are people who are buying houses, putting the money . in escrow or whatever the equivalent of it is - MR. SIMMS: The bank is getting interest now. MR. FENWICK: Yes, that is true.

The bank is getting the interest now and I think that is just as reprehensible . However, what is wrong with giving it back to the people who are purchasing the houses or the people who are selling the houses? It seems to me it is their money. I find it totally incomprehensible that we can actually sit here and say that we are going to donate money from people who are buying houses to the real estate industries so that they can go and do it for education. I have no objections to them educating their members. I think it is a grand idea.

But if they do contribute the money themselves, do not steal it from their clients because this is what it is. This Legislature, by passing this bill in this fo~, will be saying to the real estate people, "You can steal the interest from these monies." If I was buying a house that cost $100,000 and had it sitting in an account for three weeks or a month or something like that, that would -be about $1,000 worth of interest that would have to be paid by me because I had arranged that money beforehand. Why should that go to a real estate foundation?

Why should it not go back to me so it can reduce the cost of my house? MR. SIMMS : No. 25 R1510

You agree that it should be in the bank where it is now perhaps? MR. FENWICK: No, No. I do not agree with it being in a bank the way it is now either. I do not think they should have it either. I think it should be an - interest bearing account and I think the interest accrued while it is in that intermediate stage should be given back to the person who is buying the house so that it can reduce the cost of it. MR. SIMMS: The foundation is sort of a charity, you can see that in the bill. MR. FENWICK: No, I disagree with that. The fact is that we are talking about $.5 million here a year.

This $.5 million will be going into a foundation for its particular purposes when I think it is infinitely better spent by giving the money back to the individuals themselves. As a matter of fact, it is very similar to the Law Society one that we did a while back where we gave them a rake off on all the writs that were issued as well in this Province. I do not understand what is going on here.

It seems to me the members of this House have no problem lining the pockets of real estate agents and lawyers and other groups like that, yet when we come down to the same kinds of things happening with trade unions they get aghast and say, "These are undemocratic." This is hypocrisy! The real estate agents do not deserve this money any more than the banks do. It should be returned to the people who bought Ll511 May 2, 1986 Vol XL houses. Mr. Speaker, what I intend to say is I have no objections to the foundation but when we get into clause by clause reading, I intend to move an amendment to

Section 54 (

a) to change that so that the interest money would go back to the people who buy the houses and also perhaps

Section 28 (1) as well . It seems to me that that is a much more fair and reasonable way to deal with these funds. To give them to a Real Estate Foundation is just a rip-off. Anybody who says it is not a rip-off has just got to be trying to line the pockets - MR. SIMMS: You are just playing politics now. MR. FENWICK: I am not playing politics, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: You are. MR. FENWICK: This is a very serious matter here. It is $500,000 a year and it should go back to the people who buy houses. They are the ones who have to pay it. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: This is not quite ready for passage yet. Bill No. 25 is one whose principle we support, as my friend from Twillingate (Mr. w. Carter) has said. We believe that the overall mechanism proposed No. 25 RlSll

here is an improvement over what exists now in that the banks will not get the benefit they are getting at this point in time. I believe my colleague from Twillingate has covered that point. What I want to do is, first of all, clear up a bit of a confusion that was created by the gentleman for Menihek (Mr . Fenwick) , either through a lack of understanding or outright mischief. I do not know. AN HON. MEMBER: Ignorance. MR. SIMMONS: No, I do not think it was ignorance. MR. SIMMS: Do you agree he might be just playing politics. MR. SIMMONS: Well, it is a little broader than politics.

It includes politics but it is dogma. The idea that anybody in private enterprise could benefit from the process is anathema to him. That is the problem. So it is larger than politics as such. He often makes statements along those lines, even. when it is politically inopportune. He is so locked into this dogma that somehow it is a sin for private enterprise to make a dollar that he becomes almost Pavlovian in his responses to anything bearing on the subject. For that he has our abject pity and understanding. Hr. Speaker, it is not as simple as the gentleman for Menihek makes out.

At the moment if the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications (Mr. Russell) does nothing, then the banks continue to be the beneficiary. Ll512 May 2, 1986 Vol XL MR. FENWICK: It is still a rip-off. MR. SIMMONS: There is another brilliant insight. They must have a set of flash cards just like the child in Kindergarten has got a set of them. They must have a set of flash cards saying rip-off and all those things. Mr. Speaker, right now, without this legislation, the banks are the beneficiary. With this legislation, the real estate people will be the beneficiary. That is basically - MR.

FENWICK: Why not the purchaser or the home-buyer, why should they not get a break? MR. SIMMONS: I allowed him to make his point. If he can just hold himself for a moment, he will see the point that I am attempting to make. That point is, at the moment, if we do nothing, the bank will continue to be the beneficiary. The buyer is not a beneficiary anyway. That is the first point that needs to be made and a point that was completely overlooked by the gentleman for Menihek. The client is not the beneficiary at the moment anyway. It is not a matter of taking something from the client.

From time to time, I have been the client. I have bought houses. Everybody in this House has bought a home, from time to time. So far, without this legislation, I have not benefited. I have gone out and I have put in my $2,000 or $5,000 or whatever it is and the banks holds it and takes the money and uses it and so on. Now what this bill, in simple No. 25 Rl512

form, says is that let the Real Estate Association take the money and use it instead of having the bank use it. Now, Mr. Speaker, comes the piece de resistance, t