Volume XL Friday •' . - Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 51 1 November 1985

The House met at 10:00 a.m. HR. SPEAKER (HeNiebolas): Order, please! Before calling for Statements by Ministers, 1 have bad a chance to look up the details about the point of privilege raised by the bon. the Leader of the Opposition (llr. Barry) in eoanec.tion with a stat.enemt.. by the i"':emier. the dOCIDml!llllt. he tab ll..el1 blltl had uaot.. read emt'f'Letely. 1. think t.be objeetion was taken to the words, ,_ had hoped that. t.he polities of inuendo, smear and character assassination was behind us.

It appears 1 was mistaken." There is no direct accusation here. 1 looked up Beauchesne to see if 1 might get some objection to this type of thing, but my feeling is that the privileges of the bon. the Leader of the Opposition were not affected and that a prima facie ease bas not been made. Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Hr. Speaker, 1 am pleased to announce today the appointment of ltr. George Skinner to the position of" Cbairmm. of" t.he Aleohol aau1 1h:ug Dependeney Commission. llr.

Skinner is a native ltewfoundlander Who received his early edueat.ion in this Province. He bas obtained the degree of Bachelor of Science in Psychology as well as a Bachelor of Social Work degree from Memorial University of Newfoundland. Additionally, be bas - undertaken post-graduate studies in social work and L2699 November 1, 1985 Vol XL addictions at Memorial. Hr.

Skinner has bad an extensive background in the field of alcohol and drug addition in this Province beginning as a field worker with the Alcohol and Drug Addictions Foundation in 19 73 t.brougb to his appointment as t.be Executive Director and Chief . Executive Offieer of the Addition Foundation ba l.IIJIIIJ. ~ the AD.eohol .md 'DJI.'Ic 'llllepeadem.:.y CommissiGil flt';IS f"ormed. through

an Act. of this Legislature in 1982. Mr. Slci.nner vas appoint.ed Direet.or of 'leg iona 1 Services wi.t.b the Commission and bas played a very vital role in its growth and development during the past three years. Hr. Speaker, 1 have no hesitation in stating that this gentleman is among the most knowledgeable persons in this Province in the addictions field and is eminently qualified for appointment to this position. 1 am sure that all member~ of the House join me in extending congratulations to Hr. Skinner and best wishes to him for success in providing leadership in this important area. SOHE HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAD'R: 'tbe '-'.. t.he Leadel." of" the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, bear! MR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, we are pleased t.o get. up and welcome and support the appointment of Hr. George Skinner to the position of Chairman of the Alcohol and Drug Dependency No. 51 R2699

Commi.t.t.ee. "lt. is a real pleasure t.o see onee again - and these are beeomi.Jl& nore and nore the rare exeeption - sonebody bein& appointed from within the ranks of the public service and somebody who has proven hi'IllSelf within the ranks of the public service. If there is anything that is more likely to demoralize the public service, it is the series of patronage appointments that have been taking place recently. Hr. Speaker, we hope to see more of this type of appointment, as opposed to the ones that have been brought out over the last several weeks. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HA'l'THEWS: 1tr.

Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the ltinist.er of Culture, Reereat.ion and Youth. HR- M'I"DDEWS: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I would like t.o take this opportunity t.o inform this bon. House that I have today appointed six new members to the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council. This series of appointments brings the Council up to full strength. I am sure we are all pleased the council can now go on with business as usual. The new appointments to the Council are as follows: Hr. Tom Cahill, St. Jobn's; Dr. D. F. Cook, St. Jobn's; ltrs. Alice Dicks, Grand Falls; Dr.

Christopher Pratt, salmonier; Hrs. .June 'Russell, st.. Jolm's; and 11-rs. Checyl Stagg, Stephenville. 1.2700 l!ovenber '1, '1985 'Vol XL "l have the utnost. eonfidenee, lh-. Speaker, in the ability of the new nembers t.o provide sound direetion and policies for our Arts Council. I am sure that the appointment. of these new members will mean a better relationship between the Council, government and the arts conununity of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. K. AYLWARD: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the member for Stephenville. HR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, ltr. Speaker.

I am very pleased to see that there have been sone appointments to the Arts Council to bring it back up to its proper level. The only problem is, although it is fine t.o appoint new menl»ers, nothin& has been ebanged in tbe Arts Council. They are still not able to live up to their mandate. They still have hardly enough money to run their office. I cannot see what the appointment of six good people will mean when they are not going to be allowed to do their job. We are still in the same situation. The problem still has not been solved. We will see what happens in the next few weeks anyway. We have a few questions.

The six new appointments are fine; the people are good, but the situation is exactly the same as it was this SUmmer. Nothing has been changed. Despite all the promises to solve the problems, as this

article in this magazine points out, it is still a mess. Ito. 51 112700

I hope the minister has a few more announcements to make on a number of other things, including improved funding for the arts in Newfoundland and Labrador. Thank you. SOME HON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! l. would like to welcome a number of people to the galleries: Mayor Barbara Green and Councillor 'l'ony ltecartby from the Joint Councils o£ BalfMI.f' Point. - Beuoit.•s Cove - Jobn's Beach - Frenchman's Cove. Also sixty students and their teachers, Hr. Shepherd, Hr. Wells, Hr. Budgell and Hr. Poole from F.G. Bursey Memorial Collegiate in the district of Exploits.

Also eighteen students from the Seventh Day Adventist School, St. John's, with their teachers Francine Rees and Steward Harks. SOME HON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. EFFORD: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: 'l'he bon. the member for Port de Grave. Im. KFFORD: Hr.

Speaker, my question is to the bon. the Minister of Fisheries in view of the shock that has been brought on us in the last two or three days concerning the Ocean Harvesters thing, the devastating L2701 November 1, 1985 Vol XL effect of that not only on the financial part of the district but also the psychological effect it is having on the business conununity, the people who are dependent on that plant for a living, the people who have bills to pay off, and the fishermen of that area who, if the plant does not open, have no place to sell their crab. 'l'he minister is saying that possibly the plant will be sold.

But. in Ol."der for those fishermen to get ready for next year they DJst have time to do up their equipuent, to repair their boats, -make t.heir crab pot.s and repair their fishing gear, and that takes a considerable amount of money. If the plant does not open, that money is all going to go into waste. '!'hey are going to incur debts and spend money that they now do not have. So I would like to ask the minister, what is he going to do to reassure the citizens of Harbour Grace, Old Perlican and Port de Grave?

In the event that the plant is not sold, does the government have a contingency plan in place to make sure that the plant will open next year and that the Harvest Star will sale out in the Spring? HR. SPEAKER: 'l'he hon. the Minister of Fisheries. HR.. RIDEOU'l': Hr. Speaker, 1 remind the bon. gentleman of What we told him in a ~ting a couple of days ago, What we said in this House yesterday and the day before yesterday, that this government will use every means available to it to ensure that the fish plants previously operated by Ocean Harvesters will be operated by another corporate No. 51 R2701

entity before the next fishing season starts. Itow, ltr. Speaker, I. cannot. stare into a cryst.a 1 ba 11 and deaL rri.th alL the ifs that. the bon. gentleman put. forth, but. litbat. 1. can say to him, !!that. we bave said to the people of Harbour Grace and Port de Grave and Old Perliean, is that. we will work to the ends of the earth to make sure that those plants are in operation again next year. How,ltr. Speaker, What more commitment can any government or any minister or anybody else give to those people? We will use every means at our disposal to make sure that that takes place. SOliE HOH.

HEHBERS: Hear, bear! 14R. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the ~er for Port de Grave. lm. EFFORD: Hr. Speaker, the bon. minister did not. answer 11\Y question. He said he rri. Ll Mn"1t t.o the eads of the earth~ SOliE HOH. HEHBERS: Ob, oh! lm. EFFORD: This is not a laughing matter. If you people want to sit down there and be court jesters, fine, but this is very serious to the 3, 000 who have lost their jobs. SOME HOlt. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR.

EFFORD: I can assure the bon. gentlemen on L2702 ltovember '1, '1985 Vol XL the other side that I do not need to play polities. 1. tton my election by a majority vote and 1. rri.U vi.n it. apin t.be next. tine . SOlU: 1101!. lEmEBS: Hear. hear! HR. EFFORD: Now back to the Minister of Fisheries (Hr. Rideout) . He did not tell me that he will guarantee the people those plants will operate. All he did say was he will work to his utmost to ensure that the plant will be sold.

But the possibility is there very strongly that in the next two or three months - in January the season starts - the plant may possibly not be sold. I ask him again, just in case it is not sold, will he guarantee the people of that district that they will have jobs next year in Harbour Grace, Port de Grave and Old Perlican? MR. TULIC.: A good question! A good question! lUl. Rl.DEOU'r: ltr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT : Hr. Speaker, the only if that exists in this whole scenario exists in the bon. gentleman's mind. The bon. gentleman is a pessimist, Mr. Speaker.

We are a government of optimist over here. We will do all we can in consultation with the people in that area to make sure that those plants are open come the next fishing season. Mr. Speaker, the central core of the bon. gentleman's campaign was that he was going to have all the plants open within two weeks. Well, Hr. Ito. 5'1 R2702

Speaker, we are going to do everything we can to make sure that that eonunitment is kept on his behalf and on behalf of all the people in that area. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. EFFORD: A final supplementary, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Port de Grave. HR. EFFOliD: Hr. Speaker, my supplementary is t.o the ltinist.er of Pub lie \lorks (Hr. Youn&). I would like to ask t.he minister did he oppose a Cabinet decision to put the plant into bankruptcy? And does be now support the decision? HR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

A point of order, the bon. the President of the Council. HR. MARSHALL: The bon. gentleman should know that be directs questions to ministers with respect to the duties of their departments, the mandate of their departments, neither can be ask a minister of t.be Crown what his position was in cabinet on anythin&. The bon. gentleman bas been fighting for t.he people of Harbour Grace for a 'DUIIiJer of years - HR. YOUHG: Fifteen. HR. MARSHALL: - for fifteen years, and he will go on for a longer period. L2703 November 1, 1985 Vol XL HR. YOUNG: Right on. Right on. HR. MARSHALL: But this is a matter of principle, Hr.

Speaker. It relates to Cabinet responsibility, collective responsibility. No member of this House can ask a Cabinet minister what position they took in Cabinet. HR. EFFORD: To that point of order. HR. SPEAKER: To t.bat point of order, the bon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. U'FOllD: The reason, Hr. Speaker, I asked the question of the Minister of Public Works was not because of the department., but because he represents the people of Harbour Grace district. I again find the minister is not capable of answering a question. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! HR.

EFFORD: The question I asked was does he oppose the bankruptcy? HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member cannot direct a question to the bon. minister on something affecting his district. He can only direct a question to a minister an a matter dealing with his own particular department. 'the bon. t.be member for Port. de Grave. HR. EFFORD: I will go back, then, supplementary to the Fisheries and ask strongly did the No. 51 in my final Minister of him bow member for R2703

Harbour Grace, the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Hr. Reid), and the member for Carbonear (Hr. Peach) oppose the c los in& of the Harbour Grace, Port de Grave and Old Perliean fisb p~ts. lm. 1ll1J£1:J07: : Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. HR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker, let me assure the bon. gentleman that the strength and the vigor of the bon. Minister of Public Works, the member for Carbonear, and all members who represent that part of the Province in this government, have worked their fingers to the bone, Hr.

Speaker, have done everything possible, and will continue to do everything possible - and they will continue to be optimists - to find an operator for those plants. They are not eternal pessimists like the bon. gentleman. SOME RON. HElmERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPUDR.: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. 'BARRY: Hr. Speaker, they may have spoken out but they obviously were not listened to when it came time to decide on whether to keep the plants stay open. Hr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation (Hr.

Dawe) a question, but I am not sure if be is with us or if be is lost in his magazine article. PREMIER PEClCFORD: He does many things at the one time. L2704 November 1, 1985 Vol XL HR. BARRY: Unlike the Premier, I see. Would t.be Minister of Transportation indicate whether be is aware of the new conditions that. have been placed on the t.ielcets for thoSe ~ers ~ mm tt..1be lllell.ll. 1.s land ferry,. fltbere the ferry operator is attempting to limit liability for any personal injut.y or property damage?

There was no such limitation on the previous ticket but as of September there is now the following condition attached by Newfoundland Transportation Company Limited to its ticket on the ferry. 'Condition of transportation - by tendering this ticket to Newfoundland Transportation Company, Limited, the company, its agents, servants or employees, the tenderer hereby waives all rights of action for damages against the company ·for any damage or injury to the tenderer, his vehicle, his goods or any other person or thing for which this ticket bas been tendered for transportation.

Said waiver applies even where the damage or injury results from the negligence of the agents, servants or eq.loyees of t.he company o • Hr. Speaker, that. condition bas now been p laeed on a laqe sign at. the entrances to the ferry both on the Portugal Cove side and on the Bell Island side. I think that this is shameful. That company is earning enough money to pay for insurance premiums, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would the bon. member pose his question? HR.

BARRY: Would the bon. minister indicate bas he agreed to this shameful attempt by this company to evade this lawful responsibility in the No. 51 R2704

event of an accident to the people of Bell Island? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Transportation. HR. DA'WE: Hr. Speaker, we have a number of ferry operations which are handled by the Department of Transportation around the Province and we have a

section of the department, under the Director of Ferry Operations, which deals with these operations on a day to day basis. I am not aware, Hr. Speaker, of the ~tter Which the Leader of the Opposition refers to but I will certainly have it. c.bec.ked out.. 1 vou ld imagine since the Leader of the Opposition is no longer practicing law be takes the opportunity in the House to make the House aware of his knowledge as a lawyer. But 1 will cheek into it, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. BARRY: Hr.

Speaker, constituents I have letters from who are very seriously concerned. PREMIER PECKFORD: You are wasting time. HR. BARRY: I have one gentleman, and I will be prepared to show the name of the individual to the member for Harbour Main ('Hr. Doyle) who would have to acknowledge he is a very sincere and responsible individual, and be describes just. oae inc.ident.. And tbese incidents happen quite frequently on the ferry, because often weather L2705 November 1, 1985 Vol XL conditions are bad, its rough, the ferries roll. HR. PATTERSON: We cannot change that. HR. BARRY: I know the member for Placentia (Hr.

Patterson) has never been to sea. I take that back. The member for Placentia is always at sea. But the member for Harbour Main has crossed back and forth on that ferry and knows that from time to time it is so rough that vehicles move, their loads shift and there is risk to the life and limb of passengers as well as to property.

Now, the minister cannot escape his liability as ltinist.er of Transportation by that. frivolous response. \ilill he commit. to this House not just. to look into it, but When he finds that the situation is as I have set out, will be ensure that that company removes that attempt to limit. its liability? HR. DA'WE: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Transportation. HR. DAWE: Hr. Speaker, since the Legislature resumed, the Leader of the Opposition bas taken

part in a lot of action and shouting. I 111Ust say, though, that the sound system in this Legislature is quite adequate and people speaking in a normal voice can usually be beard rather well and there is really no need to shout. Unlike melllbers opposit.e, 1 rill not. just. jump at. a question by the Leader of the Opposition as if it Bo. 51 R2705

is gospel. I indicated, I think very legitimately, that I would look into the situation and see What the facts were surrounding it, and if necessary report back to the Legislature, or to the Leader of the Opposition individually, whatever he wishes~ r vi.Ll ebeek into it. and find out. what . the situation is, and if there needs to be - I bate to use t.be word • if' like members of the Opposition - a change, or if there is · something improper about the procedures that are being followed, they will certainly be changed. HR. GILBERT: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: 'the bon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. HR.

GILBERT: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Transportation. Is the minister aware that the CN ferry has not operated on the South Coast for the last four days? Has he made representation to CN t.o have the by now famous ferry, Marine Courier, the vessel Which bas operated for nine weeks out of the last nineteen TI'IOnths, replaced by a vessel which is able t.o do the job? HR. DAW: 1Jr. Speaker. HR. SPEAXER; The bon. · the Transportation. HR. DAWE: Minister of Hr. Speaker, we are informed on a regular basis by CN Marine of their activities.

There have been some problems with that particular vessel, rudder problems and so L2706 ltovember 1, 1985 Vol XL on. I understand there is at least a temporary replacement vessel on its way, or if not on its way already in place to take over that service, and the necessary repairs to the rudder of the other vessel are being taken care of as well. HR. GILBERT: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d' Espoir. HR. GILBERT: 'these are the same repairs, Hr.

Minister, that have been done three times in the last nineteen months and the vessel bas only been in service nine weeks of that period, as I said. I wonder now if the minister would consider asking CN Marine to restore the South Coast service to the pre-1984 level when the Marine Runner and the Marine Sprinter provided a daily service on the South Coast? We must remember that that service is the Trans-Canada Highway to those people Who live in the communities of Ramea, He Callum and Grey River. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. -- DTA&m: Hr.

Speaker, we have continuously been in contact with CLt Marine as it. relates to the South Coast service and the inter-relationship between the services that are offered by CN Marine, a federal Crown corporation, and the services offered by my department through its ferry operations on the South Coast, and there bas been a considerable amount of overlapping over the past number of years since the Province took Ito. 51 112706

over the service. ~ are continuin& to look at the kind of transportation ~es most suitable for the people on the South Coast of the Province, including the possibility of looking at areas such as in my colleague, the member for Burin-Placentia West • s (Hr. Tobin} district, to perhaps replace existing ferries with road networks, a ground transportation systems. It is a continuous process. The area of transportation is perhaps one of the areas, Hr. Speaker, which bas been changing and which changes our lives as it changes in the past number of decades more rapidly than a lot of other technologies.

We are continuin& to look at various ways of providing much improved and ·better transportation for people of the South Coast as well as other parts of the Province. I would like to assure the member that ve will continue to do tbat and not only in his area. Since be asked the question I will certainly have another direct talk with the principals involved in all the agencies to see if there is not something that can be done to relieve the present situation. We will continue to look at ways of improving the overall situation not only next. week but next. year and in the years to come. HR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the member for stephenville. HR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth. What have you done with the Arts Council blesides appoint six U!!lliJers? Rave you done anyt.hin& at all about the 1Datldate or anyt.hin& about the 1.2.707 Uovember 1, 1985 Vol XL fundin&? Can you just inform this bon. House what you have done since June 18? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth. HR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I would like to thank the bon. gentleman for the question.

I would just like to say to him that since I became minister responsible for cultural affairs in this Province I have bad numerous meetin&s with representatives of the arts CO'I1U1Unity in the Province and I put in place a process, some three or four months ago, to try and resolve the issue that was ongoin& with regards to the issue of fundin& for the Arts CounciL I would just like to say to him that I have met with the recipients of the SUst.ainin& Grants Programme and met with the publishers • assistance recipients.

I convened a joint meeting of the Arts Council and both groups of recipients and consequently we did make some progress in resolving the issue. The Publishers' Assistance Progranune will stay as it is and be administered by the Department of CUlture, Recreation and Youth. There was progress made in the sustaining Grants Programme and the resolve of the meeting was that the Arts Council and the sustaining grants recipients were to sit down and jointly develop criteria for the administration of that particular fund.

Of course, I do not know what the result will be when the 1\eif ne~s of the Art.s Council &et. together with the remainin& four to discuss this issue and try to Uo. 51 R2707

put it to bed. But there has been progress made. With regards to funding, Hr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman knows that the budgetary requirements, the budgetary allocations, were made in the budget last Spring or early SUnuller, and, of course, we eam1ot change that in midstream. HR. IC.. AYLWARD: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEADR: The bon. ~er for Stephenville. HR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. Just recently the funding was frozen.

I would like to ask the minister why the funding was frozen for the Arts Council when it is a Crown corporation and they had grants outstanding they had supposedly given out to people, writing cheques and everything else. Can you give me a reason whY 'YOU froze the funding for the Arts Council? I would just like to know the reason. HR. TULK: The cheques bounced. HR. IC.. AYLWARD: Yes. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. t.be ltinist.er of CUlture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATtHEWS: Hr.

Speaker, there is one thing t.hat, as Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth, I do not have responsibility for and that is if someone else writes cheques and they bounce. I only have responsibility if I write my own personal cheques and they bounce. Then that is my problem. L2708 November 1, 1985 Vol XL The other situation, Hr. Speaker, with regard to the funding, as the hon. gentleman and all hon. members of this House know. there was a situation where a number of members of the Arts Council resigned. which basically rendered the Arts Council inoperable.

I, as the minister, was faced with making a decision to try and resolve the issue: Were we to continue with the Arts Council or were we to put in place another mechanism to replace it and carry out various functions? After a full evaluation, Hr. Speaker, I decided that the best route to go was to bring the Arts Council up to full membership and try and establish better liaison and co--operation with the Arts Council and the arts community of this Province.

The reason the $100,000 was not released was because a decision was not made until a few days ago as to whether we would continue with the Arts Council or whether we would have another mechanism to replace it. I put the funds on hold because I thought it would be rather unwise to release $100,000 when I really did not know who would be administering it. HR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. lUl. SPEADR: A supplementary, the hon. the ~r for stephenville. HR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Hr. Speaker.

Recently published articles have shown a lot of disgruntlement with the way the sustaining funds has been run, the direction of that and where the money bas been going. I would like to ask the minister, does he have a formal lobbying application that he can give to all the people No. 51 R2708

who have not received money? There have been all kinds of emt~ItBlts sayin&, •'lNbat. should we do? • A 'DIJtli)er o£ people have said, 'We have not lobbied enough.' They were told they did not lobby enough through the minister's department. Is there a lobbying application that you have to fill out that says, • I had to take the minister out to dinner so we can get money'? What is the situation? We would love to know. Can you tell us? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth. HR. HA'l"'lHEWS: Hr.

Speaker, I would be less than honest if I told the bon. gentleman that I did not like being taken out to dinner, but I 1111st inform hi'Il\ tbat I bave not been taken out to dinner by anyone of the arts comrrunity of ltevfoondland and Labrador, no one. On the other situation, Hr. Speaker, he refers to an

article in the magazine he bas there. I say to him in all fairness and honesty that the spokesman in the

article he refers to is not on the Arts Council, but is an employee of the Arts Council. To me, Hr. Speaker, all the negative publicity about the Arts Council over the past two to three months has not come basically from the remaining membership of the Arts Council but the employee of the Arts Council. What that tells me is that the tail has been wagging the dog too long, and, as a new 11\inister in the department, after doing an evaluation, that tells me something is out of whack. 1.2709 ltovember '1, 1985 Vol XL HR. K.. AYL'WARD: ltr. Speaker. lUl. SPEADJl (lkl!ieholas): I recognize the bon. member for a final supplementary. HR. K. AYLWARD: I am just going to table the

article for all members of the House. I would just like to ask the minister to conunent on this: ..The mandate of the Arts Council is to advise the government on arts policy and to take a direct role in funding the arts community throughout the Province. • Does he agree with that statement or does he not agree with that statement? It was in the Throne Speech on July 12, 1979, a prior administration. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of CU 1 ture, Recreation and Youth. HR. ltATTHE\iiS: Hr.

Speaker, I would just like to say that since I have been ltinister of CUlture, Reereation and Youth I have not received one ounce of advice from the Arts Council. 1 have thoroughly checked with department officials and at least two ministers who preceeded me in the department, and if there is one function that the Arts Council has not carried out since its inception in 1980 was that it did not render any advice to government. And I think that has been a blatant weakness with the Arts Council.

I am not saying here today that we have done everything that we could have done either, but there is one thing I must say, that when you put in perspective the budgetary restraints of this Province I think looking at today•s dollars that we do fund the Arts Council lto. 51 R2709

in a fair manner and the Arts Council, with the funding that they have been given to them, have tcied to distribute these funds as best they can based on the applications that they have received. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Henihek. HR. FENWICK: Thank you , Hr. Speaker. Hy question is to the Minister of Social Services (Hr. Brett) and it iS : a quest. ion be should be f.ami'Iiar with since we have been eorrespondin& on it for the last couple of 1n011ths.

The questi,on I want. to start with is: If there is an overpayment to an individual on social assistance and that individual dies, what is the policy, if any, for recovering that money? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. Services. HR. BRETT: Minister of Social Hr. Speaker, I think I am aware of the specific case the bon. gentleman speaks of. In the past I believe the department bas been deducting the money from the widow or widower if the widow or widower was in receipt of assistance or if that person went to work on a eonununity development progranune.

The matter was recently brought the attention of the department a&ain and we have &one back to the Deparl:men.t. of Justice,. because ve Ml!!l."'e previously advised that. it. was olc.ay to do so but. the adviee we are &ettin& now is that. maybe it is not.. So we have gone back for further clarification from Justice to see if in fact we should be doing this or not. But up to this point in time the answer to the bon. member • s L271.0 November 1, 1985 Vol XL question is that we have been deducting a percentage from the community development cheque or the social assistance cheque, whichever. HR.

FENWICK.: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for Henihek. HR. FENWICK.: You might have added old age pension ebeques, too. There is an indication that they were tryin& to attaeh that one in another ease. It is my understanding, Hr. Speaker, in the ease of a bead of a family Who receives soeial assistance, if afterwards that family breaks up - in other words, if the head of the family is a male and that male leaves the wife any overpayments that were accrued to that family while the husband was there are now 50/50 shared by the husband and the wife.

Is this also correct, Hr. Minister? HR. BRETT: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Social Services. HR. BRETT: Hr. Speaker, I am afraid I eannot answer that question. It is a rather teebnieal one. I would bave to ebe.ek it. out. anc1 see e.xaet.ly what is done. I really do not know the answer. HR. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for No. 51 R2710

Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: 1tr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey). Earlier in the session the minister at'DIOUIU!ed sone very severe cuts in the staffs of the various hospitals around the Province. He indicated at the time that these staff reductions were done not only to save money but to facilitate the vacation season. Can the minister tell the House, now that the holiday season is over, have the staffs in the hospitals being brought back to full strength? DR. TWOMEY: ltr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY: ltr.

Speaker, I do not remember making any statement in this House to the effect of a large number of layoffs in the hospitals. I expected tbat there MXJld be some layoffs, as far as I knew ·there ~~ere a few, and I believe they bappemed in the Ceueral Hospital. To the best. of my knowledge not. many people were laid off. If you bave any other information, I will be very pleased t.o get it and I will have it confirmed for you. HR. W. CARTER: A supplementarY, 1tr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementacy, the hon. member for Twillingate. HR. W. CARTER: Hr.

Speaker, I do not have the hon. ministers' words here in front. of me, but earlier in the year there were layoffs at the various hospitals, the General, L2711 ltovember 1, 1985 Vol II. for example. 'Well, maybe not. layoffs but certainly bed closings, thirty-five beds, I think, and layoffs too, I might add. There were closing in the Jane~~tay, the hospital in carbonear, 1 think in Twi.llin&ate, and in the Genera 1. I think one of the reason given at. the time was that it was a good time t.o do it because of the slow holiday season.

Now that. the season is over, would the minister indicate whether or not those beds are being reactivated? DR. TWOMEY: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. TWOMEY: Yes, Sir, they are. There were no beds closed in Port. aux Basques, there were no beds closed, to the best of my tcnowledge, in Western Memorial, there were no beds closed in Bonne Bay, there were no beds closed in St. Anthony, there were no beds closed in Sprin&dale, there were no beds closed in Grand 'Falls.

There are about twelve to sixt.een beds elosed in Catu'ler. but I believe that some of these are closed because they are renovating the pediatric ward there. Yes, there are a few beds still closed in the General Hospital. There are about sixteen to eighteen beds closed in the Janeway still, but a number have been opened. There are no beds closed at St. Clare's. There are few beds closed at the Grace Hospital, but they are not closed because of financial restriction, I believe they have one other problem not related to finances. HR. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker. 1!0. 51 R2711

MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Twillingate. HR. W. CARTER: the member for ~peeifically, could the minister say, then, whether the beds remaining closed at the General wilL be reactivated in view of the fact that there appears to be a pressing need to have those beds reactivated at the General? DR. TWOMEY: Hr. Speaker. HR.. SPEAKER: 'the bon. the ltinister of Health. DR. TlalOltEY: I cannot. give you t.bat. assurance at the -moment, that. is the responsibility of the board of the General Hospital Corporation. HR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER.: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. BARRY: ltr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Labour (Hr. Blanchard) was the Premier correct When he said that the minister was up in Toronto meeting with management of the brewery industry a few days ago? HR. BLANCHARD: Hr. Speaker. B. SPUDR: The bon. the Minister of Labour. lUl. 'BLAliCIIAHD: Yes, Hr. Speaker. I have the Hansard for that particular day in front. of me and the Premier said I was in Toronto on other business but that I had been, over the past L2712 November 1, 1985 Vol XL several days, dealing with the labour dispute at the breweries. HR. BARRY: No. No, Sir. No, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The bon.

Opposition. the Leader of the MR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, if the minister were to check Hansard, or check with the Hansard Editor and go back and get the tapes, the Premier was talking to the brewery workers and the question raised was what is being done? The Premier got up in this House and said that. the minister was in Toronto and was meeting on brewery business, I think was the language that. was used. DR. COLLINS: Maybe he was in a bar up there. MR. BARRY: Yes, maybe that is what he meant. Haybe the minister was in a bar up there, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) says. That could be.

But the Premier of this Province was trying to give assurance to the brewery workers who were here in the gallery that something was being done to try and settle that dispute. Now, we take it that the minister was not up, and presumably that is why his Deputy Minister called the union to correct the record, because the Premier bad misinformed t.be House. PREKIER PECXFORD: A point. of order, 1tr. Speaker. HR.. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the Premier. No. 51 R2712

PREMIER PECICFORD: Hr. Speaker, I am trying to find it here now. I read it yesterday. I did not say that the minister was in Toronto meeting with the breweries, and I have Hansard bere sotratbere,. somebody bas it. on page ~8 of the Hansard f'or t.hat. day,. Oet.ober 29,. 1985,. elearly sholits,. .. Seeondly,. may I suggest that we have ben working very bard behind the scenes to try to solve this dispute. It is not a dispute between the brewery workers and Treasury Board. It is dispute between the brewery workers and their employers. But, through the Department of Labour and the Minister of Labour (Hr.

Blanchard).. - it is in brackets here - "who is today in Toronto on other business, but who bas been out of the Province the last few days on the matter of the brewery strike, we have been working behind the scenes with both the leadership of the union and the leadership of the employers to try to bring and end to this dispute." I did not say that the minister was in Toronto dealing wi.t.b the brewery matter. HR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, to that. point of order. HR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the bon. t.be Leader of the Opposition. HR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, I am reading the same thing.

I do not know What the Premier is trying to do wi tb the Queen's own grammar. The transcript reads, "But who bas been out of the Province the last few days on the matter of the brewery strike." Hr. Speaker, I am sure that the Deputy Minister of Labour would L2713 11ovember 1,. 1985 Vol XL have felt it necessary to call up and apologize for the Premier's remarks to the union because the reference was to Toronto rather than to some other place. 'Would the minister tell us where be was and what. business was he on,. and what. is be doing to try and settle this strike? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ob, oh! HR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! We are on a point of order at the moment. I would like to rule on that. There is no point of order. It is a difference of opinion between two bon. members. HR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the President of the Council. HR. MARSHALL: All the Leader of the Opposition is doing continually is taking little things out of eont.ext and,. you know, trying to put his own

interpretation on things. But, in his eomment.s,. he aeeused the Premier of' misleading t.be House. Now I quote Beauchesne, Hr. Speaker, page 105. It says: ••since 1958, it bas been ruled unparliamentary to use the following expressions." It goes over to page 108 and there are many authorities there. You cannot say somebody is misleading the House. Now if you say somebody is innocently misleading the House, that is one thing. If you say somebody is deliberately misleading the House, that is something else. So you have to take it within the context. No. 51 R2713

The hon. gentleman, with his soul full of jealousy, every time the Premier says something he gets up. With the venom that is in him, the bon. gentleman has said that the Premier has misled the House and the only - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. MARSHALL: - context in which it can be taken is deliberately misleading the House in that sense and be should be asked to withdraw it. MR. "l'Ul.~: 'l'o that point of order, 1tr. Speaker. HR. SPEAICER: To that point of order, the bon. the member for Fogo. HR.

TULIC: There is nothing that the Government House Leader can quote to say that misleading is unparliamentary. It is unparliamentary to say deliberately misleading. He should not be so touchy. We know, Hr. Speaker, that be has been under terrible strain in the last few days, that be wants to go around and make believe that the Leader of the Opposition is jealous over the high unemployment rate we have in this Province, over the problems that beset the fishery. He wants to make believe that the Leader of the Opposition is jealous of that.

Dow vbat Ute Leader of the Opposition said - and do not be so t.Gudly - fJI'8S -mi.siD£ormi.D& the House. Get. it. straight.. L2114 ltovember 1, 1985 Vol XL HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, again I ltU.ISt rule there is no point of order o It is a difference of opinion between two bon. members. HR. BLANCHARD: Hr. Speaker, a point of order. HR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the Minister of Labour. HR. BLANCHARD: On the question from the Leader of the Opposition with respect to my business in Toronto: In fact, as the Premier stated, 1 was in 'l'oronto on other business.

Specifically that business was the Canadian Standards Association. But "1 had been out o£ the Province on the business of the brewery strike. I was out of the Province on Friday and Saturday - I returned on Sunday - on business dealing with the most senior officials of the breweries. I met them in Halifax, specifically. Thirdly, Hr. Speaker, the deputy minister did not initiate a call to anybody apologizing for anything that the Premier has said. There was no need to apologize for anything that the Premier said, he made an accurate statement.

The Deputy Minister of Labour received the call and he straightened the matter out to the satisfaction of the caller. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAICER: Order. please! "'be boa.. the Opposition. No. 51 Leader o£ the H.2714

HR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, that explanation sounds suspiciously like the explanation we got when John Crosbie made the comments about Hr. Mulroney's office. Remember, Hr. Speaker? Remember the explanation? '.We were all hearin& the tape on VOClt, ltr. Speaker, of Hr. Crosbie eritieizin& Mr. Hulrooey•s offiee - SOliE 11011. ltF.aBEHS: Ob, ob! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. BARRY: - and at the same time they were saying, "Hr. Crosbie is denying what be said on the tape that is running on VOCH. •• Now, Hr. Speaker, that explanation is the same type that we just beard.

The minister and the deputy minister have been told to try and patch up the fact that the Premier here when he bad brewery workers in the gallery, tried to pretend that the minister was aetively lifOrkin& on the brewery strike when the minister was not doin& anythin& on it. That is the reality. SOME HOlt. ltEltBERS: Ob, oh! D. SPEADR: Order, please! Again I nust rule here is no point of order. The bon. Minister of Labour (Hr. Blanchard) took the opportunity of explainin& his position but there is no point of order. The time for Oral Questions has now elapsed. Petitions L2715 November 1, 1985 Vol XL HR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, I have a petition on behalf of constituents in the area of Pennywell Road East. 1. have raised this matter a 1UJIIIber of til!es in the House of Asserlbly. t. raised it with the Minister of Munieipal Affairs (Mr. Dawe). I have written the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I have bad some discussions with the Chairman of Hetro Board and they are trying to do what they can to make arrangements with the Town of Paradise and it may be that some temporary arrangement might be worked out. But we have a serious long term problem here.

The petition reads as follows: ""To the bon. the House of Assembly, the petition of the undersigned is as follows: that the appropriate government authority take action to itnprove Pennywell Road East, the road leading to our residences. This road is now virtually impassable in both Sununer and Winter. It needs proper ditching to prevent the flooding Whieh regularly oeeurs there. "The flooding is a hazard to young people as well as a barrier to transportation." I understand there was a young child who was found unconscious in this ditch and was barely rescued this past Spring.

"Our building permits were originally issued by the Town of Paradise, but it was subsequently discovered that we are outside of the boundary of that town. The Metropolitan Area Board or the Department of Transportation now No. 51 R2715

has the responsibility but bas not aeted to deal with our problem." «ow : what. we have here. Hr. Speaker. are citizens of this Ftnvince being caught. in a struggle or in a gap which exists as t.he jurisdiction of Metro Board is. being dealt. with, along with the jurisdiction of the town of Paradise and the City of St. JOhn's. We have areas which are considered too remote for the Metropolitan Area Board to be able ~ adequately service. These communities are being ignored, Hr. speaker. It is not good enough.

These citizens are taxpayers and t.tiey deserve attention. once more L ask the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Hr. Doyle) for heaven sake show some compassion and deal with this problem on behalf of t.hese people. SOHE ROll. HElmERS: Hear, hear! HR. J. CARTER: Hr~ Speaker, could I comment. on thi ., s. MIL SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's North. HR. J. CARTER: Some confusion exists because I do not know of any such street as Pennywell Road East. There is Pennywell Road West, there is Old Pennywell Road, and there is New Pennywell Road. AB HON. MEMBER: This is old. HR:.. J.

CARTER: Now~ the very end of New Pennywell Road is in a st.at.e of limbo because t.he Cit.y Couneil is at preseat. t.ryin& to i-q. leiM'Ilt. smre plans for laqe seale improvenent.s. un' l!ovetmet" 1. 1985 Vol XL MR. BARRY: The member is in the state of limbo, (inaudible). HR. J. CARTER: If the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry) is not going to be clear about what he is commenting on, then what else can I do but speculate. I have to cover a number of areas, a number of possibilities. He did not have the courtesy - HR. BARRY: on a point of order. HR. SPEAKER: Order. please! MR.

BARRY: Is the member standing in this House and telling these fifteen or twnt.y residents that. they do not. 1alot!t fltbere they are livin&? Ali HON. HEHBER: That. is not. a point of order. MR. J. CARTER: I am doing it. To that point of order. Hr. Speaker. I am telling t.he Leader of t.he Opposition that he is not being clear and he does not know where they are living. MR. BARRY: It is their petition. MR. J. CARTER: Well, he should have attempt to find out. people actually do live. HR. BARRY: I know where they live. MR. J.

CARTER: made ·some where the Well, it could be nice if be would care to inform the members on t.his side what be is t.alkin& about., because he has been very unelear. I will bave t.o cover the broadest. Do. 51 112716

possible range possibilities. to cover all HR. SPEAKER: To that point of order. There is no point of order. HR. BARRY: North, South, East, West. HR. SPEAKER: 1. think the hon. -member is speakin& to tbe pet.it.ion. lal. J • CARTER: I certainly support the petition, if it is on behalf of the people of New Pennywell Road, if it is on behalf of the people of Old Pennywell Road, and if it is on the part of the people of Pennywell Road itself. I will support any petition that will improve roads in this area.

I must say that the enquiries that I made at City Hall indicated that because of some large scale plans that they had in mind they were overlooking the relatively small improvements that could have been and should have been made on these streets. I have not been exactly idle, but I have to say that 1. am not aware of the e.xact. area that the hon. gentleman is referring t.o. Although, I do know - HR. BARRY: On a point of order again, Hr. Speaker. lal. SPEADR: A point of order, the hon. the Leader of t.he Opposit.ion. HR. BARRY: The member is obviously dozing, Hr.

Speaker, as is his wont, as I was reading out the petition. It is not within the City of St. John's. This is the problem. If the member would go back and read Hansard tomorrow and then come and L2717 November 1, 1985 Vol XL not waste the time of this House talking about streets within St. John's. The problem is that it is outside of the boundaries of St. John's. It was thought to be within the boundaries of the Town of Paradise. SUbsequently, it was discovered it was outside of the boundaries of the Town of Paradise as well.

They are in Umbo and are under the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan Area Board llhich does not. have t.be -money t.o do the work t.bey say t.bat. is needed. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. BARRY: Have you got it? HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must rule that there is no point of order. As I understand the hon. member is supporting this petition. HR. J. CARTER: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for st. Jolm' s North. HR. J. CARTER: There are parts of Old Pennywell Road that are outside the City of st.. Jolm's and t.bere is a small part o£ 1lev Pennywell Road t.hat. is out.side t.he boundaries o£ St..

John's. Both areas do need road upgradin& and ilnprovement.s. So I nust., 1. guess, speak in support o£ both these areas, although I very nuch doubt if that petition does come from both of those areas because they are somewhat separated. However, I will say the Leader of the Opposition is utterly No. 51 R2717

confused, bein& very eonfusin& and just. tryin& to fllaste the titne of this Bouse. 1 think it MJUld be 11Ueh 100re important if he would get out a map of St. John • s or perhaps visit the area effected and then he eou ld eot~e in here and eonunent 100re properly. But. 1 do support the petition, if it is an actual petition and if it mirrors reality. HR. BAlCER: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander. HR. BAlCER: Hr.

Speaker, unlike the member who just spoke, 1 would like to speak directly in support of this particular petition. 'First of all, 1 would like to say that there are a number of areas in the environs of St. John • s that at:"e in Hmbo. 'With the advent of ltetro Board, the City of st. Jobn•s as fllell as ltetro Board have certain eonf liet.s and there are certain jurisdictions that are not included in either. 1 think, Hr. Speaker, that it. is high time that this situation was straightened out.

I think the area in question has been looked at and studied many times When it comes to jurisdiction with regards to the City of St. Jolm's, Hetro Board and the Town of Paradise. The whole thing has been looked at by many people. It is kind of unfortunate and it kind of surprises me that somebody did not come up with this particular problem before and this had not been adequately taken care of.

Obviously, people in with the the number Department of of 1.27'18 llovexrber '1, '198.".i Vol 'XL Municipal Affairs that a~~ available to look at the situation tri.tlt 'l."e&ards to nunieipalities in this particular area, the number of people Who have looked at it, have gone over maps and have looked boundaries and all this kind of thing - we have heard an awfu 1 lot about boundaries around here recently, Hr.

Speaker - it seems to me that this should have been picked up a long time ago and jurisdiction assigned so that the people would know exactly, or at least the jurisdictions would know exactly, who is supposed to look out for these particular roads. So, Hr . Speaker, 1 would support the petition so ably presented by the Leader of the Opposition . I only hope that somebody gets on its soon, Whether it be the Minister of Municipal Affairs, to indicate who is supposed to look out to it, or the Department of Transportation, if it does not come under the jurisdiction of any of the agencies,presently set. up. lUI..

OO'lLE: Hr. Speaker, by leave. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave . HR. SPEAKER: By leave, the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. HR. DOYLE: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I would like to speak to the petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition. I am familiar to a certain extent with this particular problem because I have had some dialogue on the issue over the last. couple of months with a few people out. in the Old Pennywell Road area. The area in question is the Old Pennywell Road llo. S'l 112118

area. I think it is necessary to outline a little bit of the history associated with that problem. Back about six or eight years ago, the Paradise Town Council issued permits to the people out in the Old Pennywell Road area to build. They did not have the authority at the time to issue these permits because the area in question was outside the boundaries of Paradise but they did issue these permits and, quite possibly, I would say definitely, the permits were issued unlmowi.n&ly.

Pemt.Y"ell 1IIJad is oae ot· the areas ~ these permits were issued and. subsequent to that, a eommissioner was appointed to examine the boundaries of Paradise. The final outcome of that was the realigmnent of the boundaries of Paradise. At that time the area in question found itself in Metro Board's boundaries. However, Metro Board, as you say, did not provide the services to those areas and, as a result, the Paradise Town Council undertook to provide basic services in those areas on a temporary basis.

The Paradise Town Council is now saying to Metro Board that this area is within your boundaries and, as a result, we are not going to provide any further services there. That, I believe, was done about a year ago.

Since that time, if my memory serves me correctly, a couple of months ago, When I was on this particular problem, we have made arran&ements, 1 believe, and 1 think I will be borne out on this, with either Metro Board or tbe Paradise Town Council to continue those services for the Winter, snow clearing and what have you, on a temporary basis until we-can get the Metro Board problem L2719 November 1, 1985 Vol XL straightened out.

As bon. members are aware, we are in the process right now of calling for a feasibility study into a new, restructured Metro Board to try and determine what Metro Board is going to become, whether it is going to become a partially elected or a partially appointed body and to outline specifically what its responsibilities are going to be.

That is in tbe process of bein& done right now and places like Old Pennywell Road, who find themselves in, 1 suppose it is fair t.o say. bet.M!en the devil and the deep blue sea because they are not in any nunicipal area, those areas will be straightened out When the commissioner has undertaken his study and makes tbe determination as to what the final restructured Metro Board will become. But tbe area in question that the bon. gentleman is presenting the petition on, the Old Pennywell Road area, I believe that particular problem is either straightened out or is in the process of being dealt with. HR. BARRY: Hr.

Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. SPEAKER: I thank the minister for that. As 1 indicated, 1h". Speaker, 1 had spoken with tbe representatives from Betro Board who indicated that there were some temporary arrangements going into place, but they were temporary and we need a permanent solution to that problem. The people are looking for a permanent solution. No. 51 R2719

X thank the minister and I hope we will see an adequate arransement £or this Winter and a lon&-term arraa&ement as the jurisdietion o£ ltetro Board is worked out. ltr. Speaker, 1. bave another petition here. It is from 't"eSidents of llormore Creseent. Bell Island, and it is signed by 10 or 80 people requesting assistance in obtaining an adequate water supply for their homes. I will read it out. "The reason being that our present wat -er supply is inadequate, smells, tastes fowl and is not safe for human consumption. The wen is located near the town dump.

The pump trips itself out as there are two many families on the one pump and we are wi tbout water 90 per cent of the time. ~e bave to call long distance ourselves to complain and are told that nothing can be done until the next day. If they give us a lWIDber to eall for help, we cannot &et. any answer there. .,.-e are 't"'!!lt.i.D& from Ile!tf00'11d land aad Labrador Housi.D& Corporation aod., in our opinion, the water is not up to government standards. We have small babies and young ehildren and we need water all the time.

"How do you tell a small child wen be awakens in the middle of the night for a drink or a bottle of milk that there is no water? The water goes at all hours and we never know when we turn our taps on if we will have any water. "We were on the town council water supply for awhile and, for reasons unknown, we were taken of it. The water was good and we request that we be put back on the town council water supply and not taken of it 1.2720 l!ovember 1, 1985 Vol XL again. If we cannot be put on the tOflfll water supply we would like another well and we MJU ld have t.o earry drinking water." I ask, Hr.

Speaker, that. this be laid on the table and referred to the department to Which it relates, presumably, the Minister responsible for Housing (Hr. Dinn). HR. DINN: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Hines and Energy. HR. DINN: Hr. Speaker, I did not bear the bon. member's petition. Where is it with respect to, specifically? HR. BARRY: Normore Crescent, Bell Island. They do not have adequate water and it is a llewf ound land and Labrador Housing area. HR. DUnt: 'l'beJ' aTe 1."U1l now on a part.ial M!ll s,J'S'lem. lUl. BABin: They say they were hooked up to the town council. HR.

DINN: They were hooked up to the town council water, that is correct, but the problem is the water pressure in that particular area. Newfoundland and Labrador Housing is endeavoring to correct the situation. As with the petition the bon. member presented in the Spring with respect to ponds over there, we have those filled in. We have been working on that specific problem with the town council to see if there is a way possible to book back up to the l!o. 51 112720

water system, and, appropriate action by Newfoundland Housing. MR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: if not, then will be taken and Labrador The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. BARRY: I thank the minister for that prompt answer. It is, I understand, a serious problem in that the water they are now plugged into is unfit for - HR. SPEADR: Order, please! HR. BARRY: I am sorry. I just want to thank the minister. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: By leave. HR. BARRY: I appreciate what the Premier is saying, Hr. Speaker, but I do think I have to acknowledge and give credit where credit is due.

I also want to than the minister, as I have done publicly on Bell Island, and I think in this House before, for acting to fill in the boles that were left by the mining operation wben this 1t1atter was brought to his attention by myself last year. I appreciate the eo-operation that. be gave to the t.Oiiftl council on t.hat. matter and worked together with them in keeping me informed as to what. was happening.

I want to thank the minister but I would ask him, since it. is being worked on, if he would give the Housing Corporation a little tmdge so that the people do not have to put up with this situation for to long. L2721 November 1, 1985 Vol XL Orders of the Day HR. MARSHALL: Motion 5. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Environment to introduce a bill, "An Act To .Amend The Department Of Environment Act," carried. (Bill No. 45) On motion, Bill No. 45 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. HR. MARSHALL: Motion 6.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Conmmieat.ions to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Management Accountants Act, •• carried. (Bill No. 48) On motion, Bill No. 48 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. HR. MARSHALL: Motion 7. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications to introduce a bill, "An Act To Convey Certain Trusts And Properties In The Province From Crown Trost Company To Central Trust. Company,." carried. (Bill No. 47) On motion, Bill No. 47 read a first. time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. HR. MARSHALL: Motion 8.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of .Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To. Amend The Public Utilities Act.," carried. (Bill No. 51) No. 51 R2721

On . motion, Bill No. 51 read a first time, ordered read a second t.be on tomorrow. lUI~ ltARSIW..L: l'ot;~on 1.0. lUI. '8AHilY : lir. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER lHcNicholasl: taken over the SUmmer months. And we will see if it is not too expensive to earry individuals to Japan - HR. 'rUL'K: 1eel.atut. lUl. BA1Dl!: - or to 1eel.atut - 'the bon. the Leader of the HR. TULI{: Opposition. HR~- BARRY: Hr.

Speaker, I have just about finished my remarks, but there are a few points that I would like to make-First. of all, I think it is clear by now to everybody in this House that what the Premier is engaged in here is a phony fight. It is a pretense, Hr. Speaker. a charade, tbat is being carried on. If the Premier were serious about having unified opposition carried to Ottawa, he would have agreed to have a Select Committee appointed which, incidentally, 1tr.

Speaker, fJl'e propose that. nembers individually pay for. 1ile are not lookin& for a trip to Ottawa. 1ile al."e saying that we are prepared to fiuanee a trip to ot.tawa., l'ir. Speaker, ourselve.s, and carry our opposition to Ottawa. And that would be much stronger, Hr. speaker. 1 listened to the Premier this morning saying, • Oh, it . is too expensive. • Expensive for whom? Too expensive to go to Ottawa, too much cost. What a weak and flimsy excuse! What a misleading excuse, when the Premier beard us say in this House yesterday that we are prepared to pay our own way! So it is obvious, Hr.

Speaker, that is not the reason. That is not the reason! Yes, we will be enquiring wbere various trips have been L2722 November 1, 1985 Vol XL Or Norway. MR. BARRY: - Norway. We will be interested in finding out. how the Premier justifies these little junkets but. feels that. it. is too expensive for him to go to Ottawa, Hr. Speaker. we· all know the real reason, Hr. Speaker, it is because his phoney fight. would be shown up for what. it. is, just that, a totally phoney fight. He does not want to have any members of this House present when he goes up against that hard character, Hr.

Speaker, who has been through the Second World War, bas faced down individuals, 1 am afraid, a lot tougher tban tbe Premier bas been in recent 1DORths since the Tory Gove1:11l'llellt. was elected in ottawa . lalen Nielsen fixes his beady eyes on the Premier, the Premier does not. want anybody around. He does not want anybody around to see how he turns into a marslunallow, Hr. Speaker, and, in fact, will end up as a toasted marslunallow. 'the Premier does not want any witnesses to that shameful sight. of the transformation, Hr. Speaker, from the fighting Newfoundland to political wimp in one federal election.

That. is the main point. here. What. we are dealing with a phoney fight. being brought. to the floor of this Legislature when there is nobody No. 51 R2722

in this Province, Hr. Speaker, opposing the government's stand on factory freezer trawlers. We are all in opposition to factory freezer trawlers. It is a phoney fight because the fight should be carried to Ottawa and not to this House of Assembly, not to press releases and press conferences in this Province - to Ottawa. HR. PATTERSON: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAICER (Greening) : A point of order, the hon. member for Placentia. HR. PA.T'rERSON: Hr. Speaker, I would like to take issue vit.h the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition.

He says it. is a phoney fight, now if prot.eet.i.ng jobs for thousands of I!t!fd"ouad landers dOfim. on the Burin Peninsula. down on t.he Hort.he.ast. Coast. of Hewfoundland, if defending those people and protecting their jobs, if that is a phoney fight, I would like for the Leader of the Opposition to expound on that. We all know his interest in the fishery when the doors of Confederation Building were barred against the fishermen from down on the Burin Peninsula. Who barred the doors? HR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is a difference of opinion between two bon. gentlemen. HR. BARRY: Hr.

Speaker, it is a phoney fight because the Premier is shadow down here, ltr. Speaker. Instead of getting into a real battle in Ottawa, instead of going up and doing his job, Hr. Speaker, with his blue-blooded Tory brothers in ot.t.awa, which he should have done months ago, he should have done it L2723 November 1, 1985 Vol XL as quickly as the Liberal Fisheries critic did it, be would not be into this pickle. That is why it is a phoney fight. It is a fight that he is carrying on here in the House of Assembly and be is afraid to go up to Ottawa to carry it on.

We have asked him, "Come on up to Ottawa, we will pay our own way. We are not asking for our way to be paid." We will pay our own way and go up wi tb the Premier, I am sure the member for Henibek (Hr. Fenwick) will join us, and show that there is a united opposition to factory freezer trawlers. But. let us not. have this sham and this charade. Let us not pretend. Let. us not give eredibility, ltr. Speaker, to a phoney fight by supporting a phoney resolution in this House of Assembly. Beeause that. is Mlat. is being done. 1ile had overheated telex vires, ltr. Speaker, When the former government was in Ottawa.

The telex wires were melting, the transmitting towers could not keep up with the traffic, all telex business will come to a halt, Hr. Speaker, when the Premier went up to the eighth floor to his telex machine. He blocked the lines when there was a Liberal Government in Ottawa. He bas now turned, Hr. Speaker, to sending up phoney resolutions instead of having the courage to go up himself and look at beady-eyed Nielsen right in his eyes. Look at beady-eyed Nielsen right in his eyes and say, '"Hr. Nielsen, you are acting Federal Fisheries Minister but.

I am Premier of this Province and I have here a Select Committee here to back me up, another string in my bow." If he want.s a string in his bow, we will give him a string in his bow - person to person, face to face. No. 51 R2723

Before I forget, I want to make sure that that amendment that I have tabled is proposed properly, because I am not sure I mentioned the · seconder. I propose the anmdment as tabled. seconded by the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulle), so that. there will be no at.t.eltt't.s on t.he &rounds of tecbnic.alit.ies t.o evade the essence of this debate. Hr.

Speaker. the other point 1 wanted to 111ake is that it is tine that we had a resolution in this House to save Jolm crosbie, be.eause that is the other great pro .blem we have on the factory freezer trawler issue, the fact that we cannot find our federal representative in the Cabinet of Canada. Where is the Newfoundland representative? Where is John C.rosbie? He is keeping such a low profile he cannot be seen. Now, why is that? On this issue he says he is supporting the federal Fisheries Minister (Hr. Nielsen).

Does it have anything to do with his being hauled before the federal Cabinet and dressed down like a little school boy. scolded, ~eked, scorned and shamed in front of his peers? And, ltr. Speaker. how is it that t.bat was leaked? 'aVhy vas it. Leakell? SOHE DOH. lEmERS: Ob, Oh! 'HR- SPEAICER (Greenin~): Order, please! Mil. BARRY: Why was it leaked to the press, Hr. Speaker, that John Crosbie had been hauled on the carpet. The R.C. H. P. investigated the leak of information to a member by the person who, in conscience, leaked information on the attempt to sbaft the Natives in the North.

L2724 November 1, 1985 Vol XL They sent the R.C.H.P. out to investigate that one. Why did the R.C.H.P. not go out and investigate who leaked the information that Hr. Crosbie had been shaned before his Cabinet colleagues? Beeause they did not have to investigate very far, all they had to do was &o and look at Hr. Mulroney or his assistants and they would know where the leak came from. 'aVhy was it that Kr. Coates was not hauled before the Cabinet? HR. TULK: Or Elmer McKay. HR. BARRY: Or Elmer McKay? HR. PATTERSON: What about Hr. Fox. HR. TULK: Get into the present 'William•. HR. BARRY: Or Hr. Fraser on Tunagate?

Why were they not brought before Cabinet and given a public scolding and have it leaked to the press. 1 wonder if it. had anything to do with the federal leadership campaign that be carried out.? ltR. '!ULY.: No. HR. BARRY: I wonder is it because Hr . Crosbie had such a great showing in that and did such a good job as a spokesperson for this Province - HR. TULK: He had to be put down. HR. BARRY: - and on many issues. that be bad to be put down? It is time for No. 51 R2724

the Premier of this Province to show a little leadership and to go up face to face rith the Prime Minister of this country. We will be glad to have that Select Conut\ittee sit in on that too, but it is time for the Premier to say to the Prime Minister of this nation, 'We do not want to have our representative in the Cabinet of Canada shamed in this way. We need a federal minister who can be effective, not one who has been cut off at the knees by the Prime Minister.' That is why we are not seeing proper action to reject the Bational Sea application, it is because Hr.

Mulroney has neutered our representative in the federal Cabinet. HR. BAIRD: Who neutered you? PREKIER PECUORD: Do you support application? lm. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to inform lleltbers of this House that today we have sent a telex off to the bon. Erik Bielsen, and we have copied the Prime Minister and Newfoundland's seven H. P. s on our opposition to the introduction of factory freezer trawlers. We have also requested an immediate meeting. Hr. Speaker, the telex reads as follows: "Hon.

Erik Nielsen, Deputy Prime Minister and Acting Minister of Fisheries and Oceans: Dear Sir, We request, on an urgent basis, a meeting with yourself in your capacity as Actin& Federal Minister of Fisheries to discuss in detail our arguments in opposition to any decision to licence factory freezer trawlers. -An affirmative decision em your part would have the 1110st dire 1.2725 November 1, 1985 Vol XL consequences em the Newfound land inshore fishery and the 20,000 fishermen wo prosecute it.

"'We would take advantage of such a meeting to also present a report on the inshore fishery prepared by the Liberal caucus which would provide you with some valuable context for the decision we understand you are shortly to make." That is signed by myself (Hr. Barry}, and by the Opposition House Leader and Fisheries critic (Hr. Tulle) who was Chairman of the report of the Liberal Caucus Conut\ittee on the Inshore Fishery. So we have copied our seven H.P.s, Hr.

Speaker, we have copied the Prime Minister, and we have addressed this telex to the Acting Federal Fisheries Minister. ~ are prepared, we look forward to an early meeting with that minister so that we can brin& our opposition to factory freezer trawlers directly to him. face to face, where it should be. 'We are prepared to carry the battle where it should be carried, to Ottawa, Hr. Speaker, and not engage in the phony fights - I will table that telegram, Hr.

Speaker - on the floor of the House of Assembly when there is no opposition to the government's position, when we are all united in saying that the application of National Sea should be rejected. So, Hr. Speaker, let us get away from these petty, silly, partisan political attempts to make a political football out of a very serious issue. It doeS no credit to members opposite. It does no credit to government. It does not credit to the Premier to dra& this issue dOMt to the level of cheap, political theatrics which is what No. 51 R272S

we have ongoing in this house. Let us together, all parties, all of ~- us. if we have to, go to Ottawa t"o ~ express our opposition face to face :· to those who will be making a decision that will affect this Province for years to come. 'thank you very nuch, ltr. Speaker. SOHE HOB. HE14BERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker. Mil ~ SPEAKER. (Greening) : The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. HR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. Hr. Speaker, the bon.

Leader of the Opposition just closed off a full hour of debate with a plea to those of us sitting on this side of the House, I suppose a plea to members sitting on the other side of the House, that this issue is so important that we should not even dare let it enter into our minds, partisan, political debate, be says. The great plea of eloquence, Hr. Speaker, emanating from the lips of the saviour of t.he fishery of Hewfoundland. ""Let. this be an issue that. is above partisan politics,• he said. ""Let. there be uni.t.y in this Le&islature. • he said.

"Let. us not. ut.ter t.he dirty. scummy 1101."d •polit.ics•-- ..... Ur. Speaker. be spends fifty-nine minutes and about. forty-five seconds doing nothing else only emanating politics. That. is t.be Leader of the Opposition, Hr. Speaker. SOHE HOB. HEHBERS: Hear; hear! HR. RIDEOUT: L2726 November 1. 1985 Vol XL I say to the members of this House, Hr. Speaker, and to the people of this Province, if they could have only heard him.

There was not fifteen seconds, I would say to the hon. gentleman, spent on the substantive issue of what factory freezer trawlers and their introduction means to the people of Hewfoundland and Labrador. It. was an hour long oration. Hr. Speaker, of nothing only partisan politics. Then he has the gall, Hr. Speaker, to end up that diatribe in the last five minutes HR. YOUNG: He is getting out. He is leaving . SOME HON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker, yes, he should depart. Because be bad the gall then, in the last thirty seconds of his speech, Hr . Speaker, to implore us not to mention politics. Hr.

Speaker, I remember When I sat in another place in this House, I remember a former, former, former Leader of the Opposition saying to me, "Do not worry about the gentleman from Mount Scio, be is a schoolboy debater with a short. fuse, ... and how true he was, ltr. Speaker, a seboolboy debater vit.b a short. fuse. Becaase. 1!1:. Speaker, we saw him shadowboxing yesterday. '\ile saw hi-m looki.n& dOMl behiDJ his desk for rats and 1tti.ce. Hr. Speaker, the man is los in& his marbles. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, bear! MR. RIDEOUT: I mean, the bon. gentleman was talking about the mace.

He was scurrying around behind his desk, No. 51 R2726

almost down on his lmees. Hr. Speaker, the 111an is unstable. One of" the &reat..est.. polit.ical issues that. has t"ace.d this Provinee for years and t.be bon. &ent.leman is shadOtlboxing, looking for rats. Hr. Speaker, the man does not lmow what be is talking about. The former, former Leader of the Opposition was certainly right, school boy debater with a short fuse, and you can add to that, Hr. Speaker, somebody who blows his top very, very quickly. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, bear! HR. BARRY: (Inaudible). HR. RIDEOU't: Hr.

Speaker, I do not have to take that anymore because I have twice gone to my constituents and they have sent me back here saying, Hcarry on the good work Tommy boy." 'that is what they said. SOME HOlt. HF.lmERS: Hear, bear! HR. RIDEOUT: Now, Hr. Speaker, I will say one other thing, I did not interrupt the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry) when be was speaking and I will not be interrupted by the bon. rabbit when I am talking about elephants, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (Greening): Order, please! HR. RIDEOU't: The fact of the matter, Hr.

Speaker, is that on an issue that is so vital to the life blood of people living in all parts of this Province we bad the Leader of the Opposition spend about fifty-nine minutes delivering a blatant, partisan political speech. L2727 ltovember 1., 1. 985 Vol D. HR. CALLAlf: What are you doing now? lUl. Rl.DEOUT: I am answering. It is one t.ime in my ten years here, Hr. Speaker, that I wished both yesterday and for a few minutes this morning there could have been TV cameras in the House. I wish they could have been here because let the word go forth, Hr.

Speaker, to the fishermen, let the word go forth to the fish plant workers, let the word go forth to the trawlermen, let the word go forth to the Rural Development Councils, let it go forth to the town councils all over Newfoundland and Labrador that the fisheries policy of the Opposition is dictated by the fact that they want a trip to Ottawa. That is their policy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker, there was no substantive debate from the alternate Premier, Hr. Speaker. Hr.

Speaker, the gentleman on the other side who holds himself out as the saviour to Newfoundland and Labrador, who wants to dispose of this gentleman and come over here, the alternate Premier never had a substantive word to say about the effect of factory freezer trawler technology on the fishermen and fish plant workers in this Province, not a word , Hr. Speaker.

So let that word go out today, let it go out today to all parts of Newfoundland and Labrador that the fishery policy of the Opposition is framed around a Select Committee on which two or three of their members sit, getting a jaunt to Ottawa. 'that was the only point that the bon. gentleman 111ade in his debate. Ito. 51. R2727

HR. W. CARTER: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. Im '. SPEAKER (Greening): an ·, a point of order, the bon . member for Twillingate. HR .. W. CARTER: The :bon. member is misleading, and maybe deliberately misleading. The Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry), Hr. Speaker, made it quite clear a moment ago that we have requested a meeting and it will be at ' our own expense. We are not asking that the taxpayers finance a'' trip to Ottawa. We are not asking that.. We are prepared to go at our expense; as we did when we took the trips around the Province on our select. committee .

SO; I think the bon. member should retract. that and set the record straight. MR. SPEAKER: To. that point of order, there is no :. point. of order. The bon. Minister of Fisheries. HR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, let me remind the bon. member for Twillingate (Hr. w. Carter) what we are doing here. We are debating an amendment put down by his leader, Hr. Speaker, which wants to send a Seleet Committee to ottawa and I am . responding to the fairy tale hour that the bon. Leader of the Opposition spent. in this House ~ay and today. 'That. is what. "I am doing, ltr. Speaker, and that. is , llfhat. 1 vi.ll cont.i.Due t.o do.

So, 1tr. Speaker, let. that. word go out. that. the Opposition in this Province has no policy. Their policy on the fisheries is based around sending a Select Committee to Ottawa. That. is what. it is all about. LZ728 November 1, 1985 Vol XL HR. R. AYLWARD: The Speaker has to rule on the point of order. HR. RIDEOUT: I am sorry, Your Honour. HR. SPEAKER: I ruled on that point of order. HR. RIDEOUT: Yes, I thought you had. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. HR. W. CARTER: So, Hr.

Speaker, as a result of the bon. gentleman standing up in his place for an hour yesterday and a few minutes this morning saying, "We are all beating as one heart, we are all on your side on factory freezer trawlers, we are against factory freezer trawlers, •• when there is an opportunity for the Liberal Opposition and every political party in this Province to unanimously support a resolution going forward from this House to Ottawa saying that the Legislature of Newfoundland is unanimously united against the bringing in of that policy, and what does the Leader of the Opposition say?

The Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry) says, I am not going to support that reso lut.ion because I want a trip to Ottawa, that is what the Leader of the Opposition is saying. We saw again, Hr. Speaker, on Wednesday, in this Legislature how dedicated t.be Liberal Opposition was t.o fisheries and fishery related matters in this Province when there were only members from this side of the House who would debate a private member's resolution that impacts so much on fishermen in all parts of the Province. So, Hr. Speaker, let us No. 51 R2728

be clear, there will be, if the Opposition carries out their announced int.entions on this resolution, there rill be a clear and unmistakable ~sage go from this Province t.o the lobbyist. who are lobbying in favour of that. application, that Newfoundland, the Legislature of Newfoundland and Labrador is not unanimous against the introduction of factory freezer trawler technology. That is the bottom line, Hr. Speaker. And let me say further, Hr.

Speaker, if by some stretch of the imagination that application should be approved, the only break in the string of opposition in Newfoundland and Labrador to that application will rest on the heads of the bon. gentlemen opposite, Hr. Speaker. Let there be no mistake about that, because everybody else in this Province that you can mention agrees. They may want to say, 'He too! • Well, Hr. Speaker, the tine bas come to get off the fence on this issue. You cannot have it both ways.

There is an opportunity bere now for the Liberal Party t.o put. its money llbere its lliOUtb is, there is an opportunity for them t.o do t.bat. and not. t.o go dancing around lookin& for mice or other hidden articles in the Legislature, but to concentrate their efforts on supporting this resolution. It has nothing offensive in it, there is no political partisan 'whereas• in it. There is nothing in it that you cannot support. It is a motherhood resolution on a motherhood issue, on an issue that is vital to Newfoundland and Labrador.

But the small minds opposite cannot even wrap themselves around the smallest of principles, and that is the problem with the Opposition, Hr. Speaker. 1.2729 11ovember 1, 1985 Vol n. HR. CALLAN: How about the Baie Yerte mine operation? HR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker, I will be quite happy to speak on the Baie Yerte mine at the appropriate time in the legislature. HR. TULK: Hr. Speaker, on a point of order. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Fogo. HR. TULK: The Minister of Fisheries has been up spouting off about the fact that the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry) did not get into the substantive issue of this debate.

Are we to presume be is? Now I do not want him to let his blood pressure boil and get carried away over there, but I ask him if he would get into the substantive issues in this debate rather than talking this partisan nonsense be is getting on with over there. MR. SPEADR: To that. point. of order, there is no point. of order. The bon. Minister of Fisheries. HR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker, if the bon. gentleman cannot take the beat let him leave the kitchen. I spent an hour listening to his Leader, about fifty-nine minutes and forty-five seconds, Hr.

Speaker, listening to his Leader do nothing else only shadowbox and talk about partisan polities. Hr. Speaker, I will use my time as I see fit. MR. TULK: Good! So will we. HR. RIDEOUT: Uo. Sl R2729

Sure you will, and there will be no objection, Mr. Speaker. So that is a lot of foolishness. Let me answer some of the other inaccuracies that were contained in the bon. gentleman's speech. It was difficult to find anything other than political nonsense, but let me try to answer some of the other inaccuracies that were contained in his speech. HR~ CALLAN: Get on with it. HR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker, is there anything in Beauebesne that eou ld be used to sort of either choke or silence the bon. gentleman for Bellevue (ltr- Callan)! D. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries wishes to be beard in silence.

The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. HR. RIDEOUT: 'J:he Leader of the Opposition Mr. Speaker, likes to tout himself and his party as being the first people in Newfoundland to raise an objection to the National Sea application for factory freezer technology, the first people he said, Mr. Speaker. 'Well let the Leader of the Opposition go back to the Fishermen's Broadcast on the same day that the news broke. 'the very same day, Mr.

Speaker, that the news broke, in an i.ilterview done with me from Hawkes Bay, where I was up visiting the opeain& of the sbritnp festival, 811'011& oUter thin&s - -- DOU.E: was the member there? lm.. RIDEOUT: Ho, the member was not there, as a matter of fact. Let him go back L2730 November 1, 1985 Vol XL and cheek the tapes of the Fishermen's Broadcast on that day and see what the official position of this government was. The very same day, Mr.

Speaker, that the new broke that the application had been sent to Ottawa, and I made no bones about it, mentioning the restructuring agreement. vuentioning the previous policy that had been in place since 1979, that this Province would stand four square against an application by National Sea to introduce factory freezer technology to take Northern cod. At the same time, ltr.

Speaker, the very same day, the same day that I was made aware of it, the same day that. the 'DefltS broke that. t.he application bad been filed, I said, again in that interview, that I bad already registered our opposition to the federal Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa and I was seeking more details on the application. How more competent than that can you be? You hear the Leader of the Opposition and his spokesman trying to suggest to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that they bad been the first to stand up, Mr.

Speaker, for the rights of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians against factory freezer technology. 'Well, we can see what they are doing, Hr. Speaker. They will take to the airwaves saying, you. • They will ''We are take to for the airwaves saying, •we are against this application. • But when t.he time comes t.o stand as one in this Le&islature t.ben t.bey have t.o st.radd le t.be fence, 1tr. Speaker, either t.hat or look for a trip t.o Ot.tal!t3. 'Tbat. is t.be bottom line on it. Now, Hr. Speaker, the bon. Leader of the Opposition also said that the fight bas to be carried to No. 51 R2730

-=-- Ottawa. ltr. Speaker, let me tell this House that the fight has been carried to Ottawa. The fight has been carried to ottawa because that is rightly where it should be earried. There is no debate on that. But it bas been earried to ottawa by the Premier, by the llinist..er o£ lnt.eqove~wneulal Affairs (ltr. ot.tenheilller) and by myself, and we rill contiiWe to earry the fight to ottawa. And never let it be said, ltr.

Speaker, unlike the Liberals, unlike the Opposition, that we are afraid to tangle with people of our own political stripe if we think they are about to make a decision that is injurious to Newfoundland and Labrador. We are Newfoundlanders and Labradorians first, Hr. Speaker. We stand up for the rights of Newfoundland and Labrador first. If from time to time that may cause us to have some disagreement with our federal colleagues, then, ltr.

Speaker, we will do it because it is right and proper that we do it because we have been elected to this Legislature to serve the people of Newfoundland and Labrador and not serve the people of the Yukon or the ltortlllfest Territories or British Columbia. l.t does not -make you any less a canadian to st.aad up for llefd"ouad land and Labrador. So we have taken the fight to ottawa, ltr. Speaker. We have done it time after time, day after day, week after week, since this whole application process started, starting on the first day that it was made public that the application had been filed. So, Hr.

Speaker, we have not been lax in our duty. We have not sat back and waited for the Liberal Opposition or somebody else to take the thought and run with it. We have done it ourselves because L2731 l!ovember 1, 1985 Vol XL it is right and proper that we do it. 'What are we doing here, ltr. Speaker, in this resolution now? ~ are asking this Legislature to unani100t1sly support the rejection of that application. Yet we find, ltr.

Speaker, in our OMl lkluse, in our Oliftl Province of llewfound land and Labrador, with the Federation of Municipalities behind us, with the Federation of Labour behind us, wi t.h the Fishermen • s Union behind us, with the Rural Development. Council behind us, with every town council and co1111'1Unity council in Newfoundland and Labrador behind us, that we can get Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to unite, Hr. Speaker, we can get them to stand up for a cause, we can get everybody to stand up for Newfoundland but fifteen or sixteen Liberals. It is a shameful day for Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

HR. RIDEOUT: It is a shameful day, Hr. Speaker. l.t. would almost make you ashamed to say that. you are a l!ewf ound lander, that t.bey eannot put partisan polities aside for a day - not even a day, Hr. Speaker. They cannot put it aside for a couple of hours. They cannot throw it out for a couple of hours. I would not be giving this kind of speech today, Hr. Speaker, if I never listened to the lead off speech by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday. I would not be giving this kind of speech. HR. CALLAN: I thought the Premier led it off. Do. 51 R2731

MR. RIDEOUT: The Premier led it off for this side. I am talking about what was led off from the other side. The Premier talked about Clause 12 of restructuring. Hr. Speaker, the Premier talked about the quality argument on FFTs. The Premier talked about the displacement of employment, he talked about the regional development concept and the natural advantage concept, he talked about the French factory freezer trawler issue, enterprise allocation - all substantive issues, Hr. Speaker, beeause it is on those intellectually substantive issues that. we should make our argument..

It is on those intellectually sound issues,. ltr. Speaker,. that. our aqUitW!ftt.s sbou ld rest. 'It. is on Uwse intellectually sound issues that. our ease sbou ld rest.. There sbou ld be no argument about that. There should be no argument about the effect of Clause 12 in the restructuring agreement. There should be no argument about the quality issue. National Sea are cursing themselves for even mentioning quality.

They got blown out of the water by Fed Fish, they got blown out of the water by the Province, they got blown out of the water by the industry, they got blown out of the water by the market place, yet Hr. Ctmunings still takes his two pieces of fish and goes into meetings. That is What our argument should rest on, Hr. Speaker. HR. TULIC.: That is What it does rest on. MR. RIDEOUT: But What did we find in this t.e&islature yesterday and today? lile founiJ no debate fi."'Oll the Leader of the Opposition ('Hr. Barry). He never talked about quality.

He i.2732 November 1,. 1985 Vol XL made a very, very cursory reference to Clause 12 of the restructuring agreement. He never talked about quality, never mentioned it, and I listened attentively to all his speech. He never mentioned the fact that one factory freezer trawler will displace about 300 jobs. The Leader of the Opposition never mentioned that, Hr. Speaker. I believe he gave every indication, at least he did not say otherwise, that he and his party are willing to accept National Sea • s argument that this is an application for one FFT. He never said otherwise,. Hr. Speaker.

He certainly never said otherwise,. When National Sea,. in their CMift\ road show. 1tr. Speaker - 'I saw it in ottawa last. week, their own road show,. their OMl Show and Tell,. with their cameras and their video and their packages of fish under their arm - are saying, 'We want three.' They are saying, Hr. Speaker, 'That is just National Sea.• Well, if you are going to displace 300 jobs on one FFT, three are going displace 900. And if National Sea gets three, FPI is going to want one or two. Hr. Speaker. They are going to have to compete in the market place.

Hersey Sea Foods are going to want some and other independents in Nova Scotia are going to want some. But that is a substantive issue, a sound intellectual argument. that the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry) did not even refer to, Hr. Speaker, never mentioned it. It is crazy. It is criminal, Hr. Speaker. It is criminal that the alternate Premier,. the person over there Who l!t31lts to come over here,. could spend an hour debating an issue that is vital to No. 51 R2732

Newfound land and Labrador and not mention the substantive issues at all. It is shameful. The whole gist of his argument was we have to have a Select Committee, HR. TULK: You thought you had an agreement. HR. RIDEOU'l': Hr. Speaker, the bon. the gentleman for Fogo (ltr. Yulk) rill speak next.. 1. 3SSUI!e. 1. frill tell you right now, before he gets up, be will not be hearing me shouting at him :2-·· He will not hear me because, Hr. Speaker, I hope that I can be courteous in this House if I cannot be anything else. So perhaps the bon. gentleman should remember that.

He can make his points with all of the flare and rhetoric that he possesses and he will not hear a word of intervention from me. That is the way it should be in this Chamber, Hr. Speaker. The bon. the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Barry) never referred to the disaster that could face this Province on the French factory freezer trawler issue, never made one reference to it in his speech. Hr.

Speaker, if there is anythin& else, le.aving aside the quality arguments, leaving aside enterprise allocations. leavi.n& aside Ute displaeement of emploJ'IDI!!Ilt, if there is anything else that bas the capacity to so detrimentally affect. the future of t.he fishery in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and along the East and Northeast. Coast of Newfoundland is the potential of having ten st. Pierre Hiquelon registered factory freezer trawlers fishing off our coast. HR. TULK: He mentioned that,. you were not L2733 November 1, 1985 Vol XL listening. HR. RIDEOUT: The Premier mentioned it, Hr.

Speaker, but there was not even a •me too, • I agree, there was not even a •me too• from the Leader of the Opposition. Because they are fishing there now, Hr. Speaker, under the treaty rights on equal footing with Canadian vessels. 1tr. Spe.aker. Ute 11\iDJt.e 1Ift! 1 icence one 'FP'r, then the equal footing clause is changed and that treaty allows up to ten other vessels of French registry, registered in st.. Pierre and Hiquelon, to demand that they be restored to an equal footing. How, Hr. Speaker, I wonder if it. registers with members of this House how important that is?

Never mind what could come in belonging to ourselves, from Nova Scotia or Newfoundland or whatever, but there is the potential for ten others to demand that they remain at. equal footing with the Canadian vessels. How, ltr. Speaker, you can say goodbye t.o Fogo, or LaScie,. or Twi.llingat.e or dozens and dozens of other comnunit.ies around this Province. And , Hr. Speaker, let. me say as well that. Kxterna 1 Affairs - t.allc about. supportin& ot.t.awa - are t.he people who are really, really concerned, in addition to Fisheries, about. t.he effect. that. this could have on the fishing interests of Atlantic Canada.

But. we do not hear anything about that. I mean, that is a substantive argument, Hr. Speaker, that is something that you can go before anybody with and intellectually defend your argument, but we did not hear that, we did not hear that at all. No. 51 R2733

HR. BAIRD: 'What is the member for Pot:t de Grave (Ht:. Efford) going to do about. it.? HR. SPEAKER (Gt:eening): Order, please! HR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, anybody who researches, and the bon. the membet: for Twillingate (Mr. W. cartet:) would know this, the case that Canada made for the 200 mile economic zone - HR. BAKER: Thanlcs to Don Jamieson. HR. RIDEOUT: Tbanlcs Don Jamieson. - would know t.ba.t. Canada • s at"gument was based on natut:al advantage and access to t.he st.oek by the people 1n0st. eonU,&uous t.o t.be stock.

That. was Canada's at"gument leading up to the declaration of 200 miles in 1977. and t.hat. has been t.be argument. of Newfoundland ever since. Ht" & Speaket:, I heat"d the Leadet: of the Opposition (Hr. Bart:

y) speak for an bout: and from time to time he and his Fisheries ct:itic will get up in the House and they will t:ail about extension of jurisdiction to include the Nose and Tail of the Banks. Hr. Speaker, by voting against this resolution they will vote against t.hat. There is a clause in this resolution saying that we should carry on and intensify and continue to intensify our efforts to have the 200 mile economic zone extended not only to include the 11ose· and Tail of the Banks but also the Flemish Cap. Then the Leader of the Opposition will t:brolr up bis arms aad say because 1.

ICiiiiiiiDl. &et. a trip t.o ot.t..aeM 1. am coi.Dc to vote a&ainst. that., t.oo. L273.4 November 1, 1985 Vol XL Hr. Speaker, the time has come. Everybody else in this Province, including verbally the Opposition, say that. we are one. Everybody says we are one, Ht"o Speaket:, on this issue. Well, whenever this resolution comes to a vote, today or the end of next week. or the end of the week after, or whatever, whenever this resolution comes to a vote the people of Newfoundland and Labrador will know whether we at:e one.

The lobbyists who are lobbying for approval of this application in the corridors of Ottawa, Hr. Speaker, will know whether we are one ot: not.. As 1 said in my introduction, Hr. Speaker, if the universe unfolds as it should and the Opposition carry out their threat to vote against. his resolution, then in the final analysis if it. should fail, t.he failure will rest. on t.be beads of the hon. gentlemen opposite. Thank you. SOME RON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! HR. t,ii. CARTER: Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (Greening): The bon. the member for Twillingate. HR. W. CARTER: Hr.

Speaker, there is a non-partisan speech, 1 tell youl I am at a complete loss to understand what all the shouting is about. It is no secret that members on this side of the House at:e not. prepat:ed to support the factory freezer trawler concept.. OUr House Leader (ltr. Tu lk) , the Chairman of the Caucus Committee on Fisheries, 111ade it quite cleat: publicly where we st..ood i11'1r!e11i.at.ely after the ~t. cane out. of ot.t.awa that. an Do. 51 112734

application was bein& considered for factory freezer trawlers. The Premier, of course, waited two weeks. I think he had to sit around and study the application and maybe &au&e public opinion on it before he made any conunent on it. But, certainly, for the party of which I am a member, my friend, the House Leader made it quite clear where we stood on it. There is no we are opposed to factory freezer trawlers. \ile are opposed to the application by Bational Sea for oae. five. taa. fift.eea or t.Mea.t.y- -"--- ltR. ~= Or even half a one. ltR. W. CARTER: Or even half a one. We are absolutely opposed to it.

And that is why this resolution is a waste of time. What is wron&, Hr. Speaker, with a delegation from this House &oing to Ottawa to eyeball the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Nielsen) and the Prime Minister? What is wron& with an all-party delegation from this House going to Ottawa and maybe having a national press conference? What better way to focus public attention on the problem and what better way t.o let. the people of Canada know where we stand on the issue of factory freezer trawlers? But. no. the Premier is not. rillin& to do that..

"l'be Premier is not. prepared t.o go lthole bog and have a delesat.ion &o to ot.t.awa. He would rather brin& in, as my friend, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) , said a moment ago, t.his Motherhood resolution - and that is what it is, it is a Motherhood resolution - brin& it in, get the House to agree to it, maybe hope that the Opposition would not vote for it, it might L2735 November 1, 1985 Vol XL very well be that kind of a trap, and, at his leisure, then, to stick it in an envelope and mail it to the actin& Minister of Fisheries and maybe to the Prime Minister. AN HON. HEHBER: Via Hon& K.on&. ltR. W.

CARTER: Yes, as my friend says, probably via ROn& Xong. ltr- Spt!aker. that., in -my vie~t. is not. bein& serious. 'If t.be Premier is serious about opposin& this application, then why not let us &o to Ottawa, like I said, eyeball the ministers concerned, if necessary, have a national press conference, focus public attention on the problem and then, let us see where we stand? Instead of that, we are &oin& to be here wastin& time discussin& an issue on which we all a&ree.

I notice in The Evening Telegram, by the way, a few days ago, on pa&e 3, one of the captions on a story, 'Peckford takin& FFT battle to the House of Assembly' . What battle? Hr. Speaker, I presume to do battle there must be an opposin& force. There is no point. in doing battle amongst. yourselves. 'there is no point in t.be House nembers doin& bat.tle rit.h themselves. I do not. believe 1. ean speak for my friead. the rretrber for Behihek (Dr. l"euriek). or maybe 'I can, when 'I say that t.bere is nobody in this House favourin& factory freezer trawlers.

I will &o even further and say that there is probably nobody in this Province who would favour that kind of a concept. The Premier on April 2 was given a decisive mandate to &overn this Province. It may be his last one, but at least, he was given that No. 51 R2735

lt1alldat.e on Apri 1 2 to govern. He does not. have to put. on this ebar.ade about. going to the various 'tlllllieipalit.ies and service associations conducting this paper war, soliciting the people's views on t.his issue. Newfoundlanders have- already made their position known on it.. MR. FUREY: They are responsibility. HR. W. CARTER: They are responsibility. time. AN HOlt. HEHBER: (Inaudible) (inaudible) . HR. W. CARTER: ducking their ducking their They are killing final issue That. is right, we are killing time now, soliciting the views of the various service clubs and others.

That. is valuable tine lost.. 'I am inclined to believe, ltr. Speaker, that. this 100t.ion, like a lot. of other motions that. have been brought. in by the Premier and by the government, is nothing more or less than a cover-up, a smoke screen. They are trying to take the heat off themselves for their neglect of Newfoundland • s most basic industry, the fishery. What about the plants in Harbour Grace and Old Perliean and Port de Grave? What about the fifteen orphaned plants now owned by Fishery Products International? I do not see any great outcry from the Premier or from the Minister of Fisheries (Kr.

Rideout) or from the government, as to what just might. happen to these plants.

I do not. think there is too 111Jch concern being expressed by the ~rs opposite as to what. is 1.2136 l!oveni»er 1.,. 1.98.5 Vol 'D. going to happen to the 3, 000 or 4, 000 people in Harbour G't'ace Who depend on that. plant. for a job. 'the Premier, of course - and this is his style; he bas used it before. we a 11 lmow that. stripped t.o the waist. giving the impression of being the 'fighting Newfoundlander•, the Whipper Billy Watson of the Newfoundland House of Assembly and Newfoundland polities, coming in here fighting an issue with people who agree entirely with what he is saying.

I want to make it quite clear, Hr. Speaker - I do not equivocate Whatsoever - that I oppose the entry of factory freezer trawlers into the fishery off our coast. I think it is wrong. I think Newfoundland is a factory trawler, as it were, anchored and stationed right in the middle of the North Atlantic.

If there is anything we do not need here in this Province it is factory freezer trawlers. lJhat. the government should be doing, rather than wasting their time trying to create issues, trying t.o pick a fight in a House Where there is no need for a fight, they should be spending their time and effort trying to rescue What is left of the inshore fishery. If Newfoundland has a future in the fishery, I submit to you, Hr . Speaker, that that future lies with the inshore fishery, the best way of catching and processing fish.

I might add, probably the freshest fish that is ever landed and processed comes in by way of the inshore fishery. The Minister of Fisheries made reference to the speech of my leader suggesting that he did not make any reference to some of the real issues. He talked about. the French freezer trawlers and how the Leader of the Opposition did l!o • .51. 112136

not have the interest to even make reference to the problem that these trawlers are posing. There is one thing I have noticed - and I have seen it frequently in the past few days - that the bon. members opposite, maybe it is the result of being scared; maybe it is what happens when you are running scared; they become personally abusive.

It is one thing to get up and criticize a minister for his eonduet as a minister or the way in lifhieh be is admi.nist.erin& his deparl:ment, but the ministers and the Premier seem now t.o have ~sorted to abusive type polities, using words like unstableness and other words whieh I will not even repeat. They are becoming blatantly personal, ltr. Speaker, and blatantly abusive. These same people, including the Minister of Fisheries, have the audacity to get in the House and to accuse the Opposition of being political and making political speeches. I do not think the people of Newfoundland are going to buy that.

I wish the members opposite and I wish my friend and namesake, even though we are no relation, I wish they would have taken the time and trouble this year, I wish . the member for St. Hary•s - The Capes, for example, would have taken the trouble this year, to have gone out, as we did - and I might add, at. our Olfll expense, we did not have our fingers into the goverl111ellt till when ve vent out to get noney to travel and to live it up - and to mix with the fishermen, to have meetings with them and t.o listen to them. I wish, Hr.

Speaker, that these members would have taken that time and trouble because they would have learned one very important fact, as we did. L2737 November 1, 1985 Vol XL In the debate a few days ago. on Wednesday, the Private Member's Bill, when the member for Labrador debated his motion, Hr. Speaker, with respect to unemployment insurance. they were absolutely flabergasted that the members on this side did not take

part in that debate. Well, let me tell you why, Hr. Speaker. If there is one thing that we learned on our trips around the Province this year as a caucus committee, if there is one very i~ortant lesson that ve learned and one very important point that was bein& driven home at every 11eeting ve llfellt t.o, on every stagehe.ad and wharf that we congregated, it was that it is time to stop talking and time to do somethin& about the fishery. Action not words, Hr. Speaker, is what the fishermen in this Province want. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. W.

CARTER: They are not impressed with members opposite getting up and expressing or displaying their new found interest in what is happening out there. The fishermen of this Province want action and we made it quite clear, when we attended our 11eeU.ngs, in the introductory remarks - HR. BAIRD: Who is we? HR. W. CARTER: The Opposition Caucus Committee on the Fishery. HR. BAIRD: There are no wharf in Gander. HR. SPEAKER: Order. please! No. 51 fishermen at That is crap. the R2737

Hll. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, when we bad our meetin&s in eighteen or twenty places along the Province, we made it. quite clear to the people who t~ere in attendance that we were not there to t.alk to them,. we ~~ere there to listen. That impressed them, I think, and that is why we learned so llU.Icb. We gave them a chance to loosen up and to unload their problems and to tell us some of their thought and views. Like I said a moment ago, one of the very important messages that came through without a doubt at all the meetings was that .. we are sick and tired . of talk.

All you fellows seem. to do in the House of Assembly is talk. You do nothing else." That is why we are not going to get involved in any long debate on the motion that was presented to this House by the member for Labrador because there is no need of it. What point is served by standing up here and wasting three or four days discussing a problem with Which we aU agree anyway? And the same thing applies now. 'We are here a couple of days talking about the factory freezer trawlers, the smoke screen resolution introduced by the Premier.

I would like for some of the members opposite, by the way, to enlighten the House and the people of Newfoundland. Where does John Crosbie stand in all of this? Where does Jim McGrath stand? Where does Captain Morrissey Johnson stand on the factory freezer trawler application? HR. CALLAN: Captain Morrissey Johnson does not stand anywhere. Im. W. CARTER: 1.2738 November 1., 1985 Vol 'XL Hr. Speaker, I suggest to you that it is not in this Rouse that the fight should be taking place. HR. BAIRD: Where does Brian Tobin stand on it. HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! HR. W. CARTER: Hr.

Speaker, this should not be the battle ground of this resolution. I contend, Sir, that the fight is in Ottawa and we should take that fight to Ottawa. Hr. Crosbie, if he had any guts or any real interest in this Province HR. BAIRD: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Humber West. HR. BAIRD: I think the word that bon. member just mentioned, "guts," is certainly in Beauchesne and it is not a parliamentary comment. I ask the member to withdraw it. HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of order, I rule there is no point of order.

The bon. the member for Twillingate. HR. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, to that point of order, if my words have offended the bon. minister, I know he has a very sensitive attitude and very sensitive ears, may I rephrase and say that maybe if the minister in Ottawa, if our Cabinet representative bad the intestinal fortitude then maybe we would be llU.Ich better off. Maybe our fight ito. 51. 112738

- -- --- to save the Newfoundland fishery and to ward off the application of Nat Sea for a factory freezer trawler licence would be much further advanced. That is to the point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. BAIRD: He ruled there is no point of order. HR. SPEAKER: I have already ruled there point of order. The bon. the member 'l'lri.ll i.ngate. -- '\il. CAJrl'ER: is no for l4r.

Speaker, it is interesting by the way that. the ltembers of Parliament who represent. the Liberal Party from Newfoundland in ottawa are on record. 'lhey have made their views known on it without any doubt whatever, without. any qualification. 'lhey are absolutely opposed to the application of Nat Sea, as we are, but I have not heard the same, except, I believe, for one exception, the member for Burin-St. George's (Hr. Price). I believe he has in a way, at. least put himself on record, as being against the application. I have not. heard one syllable, not one word from the member for st. John • s West (Hr. J.

Crosbie), Newfoundland's representative in the Federal Cabinet. I have not heard a word. Yes, I have heard something from the member for St. John • s East. (ltr. J. ltcGratb), representing the PC Party in OU.awa. 1. believe his eont.ribution t.o the whole debate MilS that, "1iiell, 1. am &lad 1. am not ltinist.er of Fisheries.... That was said with tongue in cheek, no doubt.. 'I think the member would like to be Minister of Fisheries. But what he is saying, Hr. L2739 November 1, 1985 Vol XL Speaker, that he did not want to have to deal with that problem.

And like I said, the other gentleman, the member for Bonavista-Trinity-Conception, I do not think he said a word about it. 'lhere has been no utterance Whatever from that member as to where be stands on the issue. Hr. Speaker, the problems facing the Newfoundland fishery today are very, very serious, and try as the Premier will and the government will, the problems of the factot.-y freezer trawler is not the greatest. problem facing the fishery. Hr. Speaker, like 'I said a moment ago, the debate that. we are involved in is absolutely unnecessary. It is a waste of time A complete and utter waste of time. AN HON.

KEMBER: 'lhat will go around. HR. W. CARTER: That will go around. I hope it does. And the people in 'lwillingate district know where I stand on the matter of factory freezer trawlers. HR. BAIRD: Do they know how you are going to vote? HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. W. CARTER: 'lhey know where I stand on it, Hr. Speaker and bow 1. vote is 111y Oliftl business. 1. do not think the bon. -members opposite have the ri&ht t.o presume bow any of us will vote. Haybe, that is what they will want. Maybe they want our party to vote against it. Ho. 51 R2739

IJf , HON. HEHBER: You will vote as your Leader tells you. HR: W. CARTER: ~Y ' would they be afraid to vote to send a delegation to Ottawa? u::· they are serious, if they have any · interest at. whatever in p,reserving the Newfoundland fishery and in doing anything that will be beneficial to the Newfoundland fishery, in stopping the application of National Sea for the factory freezer trawler, what is wrong with going to Ottawa as ~ a, delegation representing the people .• s House? This is an issue bigger than one party. It is bigger than the governing party or the Opposition Party. It is bigger than the Premier.

It is bi:g&er than the House Leader (Hr. Marshall) and others on the other side of the House. So why not go to Ottawa? It is insulting, absolutely insulting and beneath a minister of the Crown to stand in his place, ltr. Speaker, and to suggest that all we want is a free trip to Ottawa. '!ou lcnow that. is hardly worthy of comment.. Probably I sbou1d not even dignified its author or the comment. itself by commenting on it.. 'the bon. minister can t.alte an entourage of officials wit.b him t.o Dallas, Texas.

He can take an entourage of officials with him to Iceland, Norway, a few days ago, I believe, to West Germany, be and the Minister of Development (Hr. Windsor), I believe, the Minister of Forest Resources and Land (Hr. Simms). They can travel around the globe, they can become world travellers at the people's expense. Yet, when it comes to, maybe. and I say maybe because I think most members here, certainly 1.2740 Uo~r 1, 1985 'Vol D. on this side, if the crunch comes, we will pay our own way to Ottawa, if we have to. Alt HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). HR. W. CARTER: If we have to we will. And we will.

If the meeting that we have requested is agreed to, we will be going and we will be paying our own way to the Nation's Capital. In light of that, Hr. Speaker, for the minister to get up, a member for government who is not to shy when it comes to world travel, and to suggest that all that we want is a free trip to Ottawa is beneath a minister of the Crown . I know I have been to Ottawa enough that a free trip to Ottawa does not mean that 1\1JCb to me. I will tell you one thing, Hr. Speaker, that if the Minister of Fisheries Acting (Hr.

Nielsen) , and I underline the word acting, accedes to our request for a meeting, I am prepared to go and buy my own ticket, if I have to. Alt HOlt. MEMBER: (Inaudible). HR. W. CARTER: That is what I will. I will buy my own t.icltet and I will go to Ottawa. I view this problem as sufficiently serious and important, that I am prepared to put my money where my mouth is. As my friend from St. Barbe (Hr. Furey) reminded me, we did it this summer, the committee, by the way. that bas caused the members opposite so nuch unrest. It stirred up so much unrest in them, oh, they have been petrified.

We met one of their members in Gander and be was almost afraid to ask where we were. Do. 51 112740

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, we met one of their backbenchers in Gander during the visits we were having and he was literally afraid to ask us how many meetings we were having and where we were going. He did not want to hear about it. He was petrified. He was absolutely petrified that we were going around taking the time and effort to visit the fishermen in our Province and to give them a chance to express their views on their very serious problems. 'We brought back the report. 'We t.abled it.

I suppose the n-embers opposite are Ul11!fillin&. even in their OMl 11\inds. t.o accept. t.he fact. that such a report. exist.s. Certainly they are not. prepared t.o -make any c.mtU!Blt. OD it.. lm. BAIRD: You are not a bad fellow, you are just with the wrong party. MR. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, I will clue up in a couple of minutes, others want to speak. I say to you now that the Premier of this Province, the government of this Province were elected to govern. They have a decisive mandate given to them by the people of Newfoundland on April 2. They know and I know and Hr.

Speaker knows where the people of Newfoundland st.and on this issue. They know that Newfoundlanders, to a man and to a woman oppose the application of National Sea for factory freezer trawlers. They know that we oppose it.

In fact, as I said earlier, our position in that regard was 1118de lmO!illl t.o t.he 11ewfoundland people 1011& befO'I."e theirs. 1D. fact, While the Premier was eqivoeating, sit.ting around, L2741 November 1, 1985 Vol XL waiting, wondering what was going to happen, bow be would react with respect to his friends in Ottawa on such an application, while he was begging for time to study the application, we were publicly opposing it. So our view are well known and to even suggest that we are in favour of factory freezer trawlers, like I said, is hardly worthy of comment.

I would like to know, as I said a moment ago, the position of our federal Cabinet minister. The members opposite very carefully, by the way, avoided that question. Haybe the member for Grand Bank (Hr. Hatt.bews) can tell us bow Hr. Crosbie feels on the applieat.ion or -maybe the ltinist.er of Finance ean t.ell us? Certainly the people of ltewf ound land do not 1aVJfif flfbere lb:'. Crosbie st.ands oa. t.be app L ieat. ion or ~~there t.be ot.ber Tory ~ers in the House of Commons st.and on it, with maybe one exception. I think they are afraid to ask.

I actually believe that they are afraid to ask because they are afraid of what the answer might be. We all witnessed, of course, quite an event here in September. The Premier's Conference was held here in St. Jolm's and our Premier was front row center as he was the man who headed up the conference this year.

It is rather interesting to note - and this is one of the points that was made in the course of our trips around the Province - that more discussion took place at that Premier's Conference on South African wine and whether or not there would be sanctions imposed against South Africa than what took place on the fishery. In fact, When the conference ended, t.be Premier -made a point. t.o say that there was some diseussi.on on it but that be would make sure No. 51 112741

that the matter would be placed on tbe agenda at the next Premier's conference to be held in Halifax some.. time in November. Now there is: a·, sense o