Manitoba Hansard — 8 June 1972 (Sitting 109, 29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-109

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8: 00 o'c lock, Thursday, June 8, 1972 27 93 MR . CHAIRM AN : Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management, Resolution 89 (a) (1 ). The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Acting Minister Mines, Resources and Environmental Management) (Brandon East): Thank you very much, Mr . Chairman.

It is my intention to make but a few brief introductory remarks since I believe we should allow as much opportunity as possible for members of the House to ask questions and to make any observations that they so choose on the Estimates of the Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management. It does give me pleasure, Mr . Chairman, a great deal of pleasure to once again have the opportunity to present and explain the spending Estimates of the Department of Mines , Resources and Enviro nmental Management, albeit in an Acting Minister's capacity. At the outset I would be very remiss, Mr.

Chairman, if I did not express my sincere appreciation of the work accomplished by the staff of the department. There are hundreds of employees in this particular department working in many areas of endeavo ur, whether it be in the fishing in dustry or connected to wildlife or in the mining industry, water control or indeed the aviation industry. The activities of the department are quite wide , quite diversified and we do have in deed a large collection of very competent and I think dedicated people .

In particular I would like to take the opportunity to express our gratitude to the former Deputy Minister of this Department, Mr. Wins ton Mair. Mr . M air as you know is still with the government service having been transferred to the Planning Secretariat as a Senior Resource Use Plann er , and I can advise you, Mr . Chairman, that Mr. Mair is carrying on in a very significant capacity and we do appreciate his continued services. He has been replaced by Mr. R. A. Walla ce, formerly Secretary of the Continuing Program Secretariat of the Planning and Priorities Committee of Cabinet. Mr .

Wallace of course has had many years of experience in the resource background and as a result is certainly no stranger to many of the problems that confront this particular department. I might mention, Mr. Chairman , that significant changes in the organization structure and responsibilities for this department have been made under the direction of the present government and the current emphasis which we are placing in the department is to develop it into a strong, a functional and a highly integrated unit. You will note, Mr .

Chairman, that the total current Estimates of the Department are approximately the same as they were last year. One of the major responsibilities of the department is the entire matter of Environmental Protection and Enviro nmental Management. We have various organizational areas concerned with this. We have of course the Clean Environment Commission which has the function of licensing and approving various industrial and institutional activities around the province that might have some pollution implication. Mr .

Chairman, I can advise members of the House that it is the intention of this govern ment through this department to place a much greater emphasis on public education and on developing various environmental guidelines as further aids to pollution control. It is our specific intention to concentrate on litter and waste problems regardless of the type of materials involved . I think it should go without saying, Mr. Chairman, that one of our greated assets in Manitoba is that this province is relatively clean, it's relatively unpolluted.

We have a rela tively clean environment and it is this government 's intention to maintain this and indeed to im prove upon the situation. The operational vote in the budget you will note is the single, the most significant vote in terms of doll ars, the biggest single item for the department , and this is be cause it includes the various regional delivery systems of the department and then the spending estimates required for resource development of water , forestry, wildlife and fisheries are in cluded. The emphasis , Mr.

Chairman, is on resource development for the enhancement of the quality of life of the people of the province. Resource development is for developm ent for people and natural resources by themselves only take on significance when they can be used to achieve various social and economic objectives of Manitobans. I can say further to this, Mr. Chairman, that it is our announced intention to give the people of a particular locale , the local people of an area , the first opportunity of utilizing the resources of that particular area . It certainly seems to me at least , Mr .

Chairman, a tragedy -- particularly in the north part of our province to see the local aboriginal people in poverty conditions when so many riches

27 94 June 8, 1972 (MR. EVANS cont 'd) • • • • • abound in the area. Therefore this must be corrected and in

part it might be corrected by the department 's activities and certainly the thrust of the depart ment and the emphasis of the department in resource development in this part of Manitoba: in particular will be guided by this concern. We could refer of course to the Moose Lake Logging activities. I think we've had quite an extensive report on this by the Chairman of the Board of Moose Lake Logging and I know members of the Publ ic Utilities and Resources Committee had opportunity to ask all the ques tions that they deemed necessary and I think we had a full area of its activity.

But it's this type of development which I think gives our native people the opportunity to develop themselves. And I can advise honourable members that other similar developments are now being planned for other areas of the province for the future. Certainly many speeches and many good words have been said about the importance and the value of our water resources in recent years; and of course this is still a high priority item in the department.

Parti cular emphasis will and is being placed on forward planning of this important resource to ensure that the resource allocation decisions being made today can stand up to the test of time as wise decisions. Certainly Manitoba is blessed, Mr. Chairman, with the quantity of water that we do have being the catch basin so to speak of fresh waters flowing in from the west, from the east and from the south, and as time goes on this resour ce will become in an economic sense even more valuable. I would draw your attention, Mr. Chairman, in particular to the Lake Winnipeg and the Churchill and Nelson River study.

It is the joint intention of the federal and provincial governments to ensure that all possible research is done and information secured that will assist in resource allocation decisions in these areas. While on water conservation I might take the opportunity to remind members of the historic occasion experienced not long ago when we formulated the Whitemud Watershed Conservation District No. l, involving approximately 20 municipalities.

This is an idea that has been long in the making but we finally brought it to fruition and I'm sure that the members of that conservation district do look forward to a better utilization of water in their particular geographical area. Passing on briefly to the mining industry we can advise you that further development of this industry is being pursued by both the department 's efforts and of course by the efforts of the Mineral Resource Development Corporation. And again , Mr .

Chairman, I would advise members that we did have a report from that Corporat ion, the Chairman of the Board being there available to answer any and all questions. This is before the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee. At the moment our mining industry is experiencing somewhat of a plateau due largely to international conditions and I'm advised that the International Monetary System, for example , has caused some slackening of Japanese demands but there's no reason to anticipate any serious sla ckening of this important industry in Manitoba in the long run. In brief, Mr.

Chairman, in the long run the outlook is bright. In order to assist in the stimulation of mining development I can advise members that we were pleased to receive at least two mining missions in the not too distant past. Both the Chinese Government had an important mining delegation here and the Swedish people were here , a Sw edish technical mining mission was here not too long ago, and these types of missions, Mr. Chairman, I can advise members will lead hopefully to further useful developments of our in dustry. It is possible that another mining mission from the USS R may be here some time this summer.

Pass ing on to another area of the Department. The Air Service

Section or di\ision of the department continues to contribute, in my opinion, towards reducing the isolation problem of northern communities both through improved communication and transportation services. Major improvements have been made to improving the co-ordination of the service and is being done in conjunction with the private air carriers in the north. As I said, Mr. Chairman, there are many things to be said about the various sections and branches of the department but it was my intention to provide a very brief overv iew at this time.

I shall be pleased to elaborate throughout the course of the estimates debate on other highlights, but in closing this brief introductory statement I want to single out again the stress that the department is placing on using Manitoba 's natural resources to help Manitobans help themselves and in particular the people in the north to help them achieve social and

June 8, 1972 27 95 (MR. EVANS cont'd) ••••• economic objectives. And in other areas of the province , all areas of the province . For example , we have this year changed the allocation of the natural wild rice stands in the province so that the Indian people and people of Metis descent will have greater access to harvesting the resour ce. We shall continue to place emphasis on such activ ities therefore as the Moose Lake Loggers program, not only to' give the loc al people access to the resource but to help them take full advantage of it . Mr.

Chairman, my brief introductory remarks have perhaps been a little too 1 ong , and therefore at this point I will submit to you, Sir, and the members of the House the Estimates of the Department of Mines , Resources and Enviro nmental Management for your approval. MR , CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker , I' d like to speak formally on behalf of the Opposition in reply to the Minister's -- (Interjection) -- no , not too many on government side either -- in reply to the Minister 's opening remarks with regards to this department.

Let me join him first of all in extending congratulations to the administration of the department; the people in charge of this department are respected on all sides of the House, particularly since they do have a very difficult job in managing a very unwieldy department. This particular department has always been one that _contained a very large number of branches and they have never been of such a nature that they dovetailed with one another 's in terests to the extent that most of the departments do .

Therefore it to a very large extend has been a collection of agencies dealing with matters asso ciated with the physical environment but not in very many respects asso ciated with one another directly. Mr. Chairman, I think in that respect one of the observations that has to be made at this time is that this department , what was the Department of Mines and Natural Resources having now become Mines, Resources and Environ mental Management, requires a splitting of the department into two departments more than it has ever been required before. I think Mr. Chairman, ••. MR.

PAU LLEY : I wonder if, and I apologize to my honourable friend the Member for Riel for interrupting him, I am wondering whether or not because my colleague, the Acting Minister of Mines , and Natural Resources and Industry and Commerce is piloting his Estimates through the House, for the first time as acting Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, taking due recognition of the fact that the rules of the House say that only after the passing of the first item, namely the Minister's salary, he may have experts of his department on the floor . I am wondering, Mr.

Chairman, whether my honourable friend the Member for Riel or the members of the House -- it actually applies to all members of the House -- whether it would be agreed under the circumstances that the officials of the department may be avail able to my colleague the Minister at this stage rather than passing the first item. This has been done before at this session. (Agreed) MR. CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Member for Riel. MR, CRAIK: This department, Mr .

Chairman, has always been one which has contained such a number or collection of different interests that with the advent of the greater interest in environmental management which has happened in recent years, that it would seem to be more a requirement now than ever before in the past to have the department split into the two parts , namely to have the mines

section on its own and the other resources and environ mental management into a separate department. It has always been a question I think as to whether there were advantages in having the mines and the other resource interests coupled together in the same department.

There are certainly some interdisciplinary advantages in having both the biological and the abiotic, if you like , interests associated with one another , but I think that it has reached the point where the size of it is so great and its diver sity of interests is so great that it would be a good idea to see the department split; and particularly since mining is occupying a greater part of Manitoba's economic well-be ing that attention should be given to it in the best interests of the economic development of the province. Mr .

Chairman, from a personal point of view , I once had the pleasure of being Minister of this department for a period of about nine months and during that period had the two pleasures that I remember at least of seeing the initiation of the Moose Lake .proj ect which was initiated during the period I was there; and also seeing the negotiations completed on the forma tion of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board. Both of these have come under fairly laudatory comment by the present government and I must say that at this point I would find it very

2796 June 8, 1972 (MR. CRAIK cont 'd) • • • • • difficult to criticize the operations of either one of these having been very vitally involved in both in their formative stages and having watched it with a great deal of interest as it has progressed along.

I must say as a bit of history on this, and I expect there will be other opportunity to dis cuss it, that at the time of the formation of the Moose Lake project, the alternative to this was the formation of a very much larger corporation which would cover a large segment of the logging operations associated with The Pas Forestry Complex, But it was after a fairly brief I must say but intensive review of the characteristics of the people of the north that it was de cided that a co-operative venture within a native community was more at home with the people of the North and more logical as an experiment than going into a very large operation in which the government was intimately or extensively involved in the management and the financing.

The Moose Lake project was started out as an experiment in early 1968 with the thought in mind that it was exactly that, it was an experiment where a community would be brought to gether with a common interest to form a corporation or a co -operative where they would assume the management responsibility for it after a period of training, I think the most impressive statistic at least that came out of it was that of the initial 20- odd people that formed this logging operation, there was not one of these people who did not have a record of having been in jail on some sort of a conviction at one time or other; and when we entered into it it wasn't without the due fear of a person living in the southern part of the province who looked upon a jail record or a record of conviction with some concern that this was a foreboding of what to expect in the future.

But I must say that after a period of operation the statistic, which was a staggering statistic, was that after some 1, 500 man-days of operation of this program there was only something like 20 man-days of absenteeism from the program, Mr.

Chairman, even in the society of the white man, an accomplishment such as this is something which can be envied, These people bound together by the self interest of serving themselves and serving the community and undoubtedly some of the profit motive in volved in it as well came together and formed the logging corporation that was the beginning of I think a success story in development in Indian communities, native communities of the north.

So it's with a great deal of interest that this project is watched by both sides of the House as it progresses along, I didn't have the opportunity to sit in committee when they presented their report so I can •t speak knowledgeably about their functioning at this point. However, I do be lieve that it's satisfactory. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that the Chairman of the project is in the Gallery and may I extend my congratulations to him on behalf of both sides of the House, I trust, -- (Interjection) -- That's good, I'm glad to hear it. I'll support you 100 percent. Mr.

Chairman, on the other items involved here there is of course a lot to be said that isn't all as positive as the comments that have been made and I speak here on behalf of the administration of the department.

As I've said before, during the period of what I consider to be crisis during the last year, when this particular interest and responsibility of govern ment has never been greater, that is administration of the natural resources of the depart ment, particularly in relation to the water power questions act as a threat in many ways to the interests of the department, We have seen the department operated by an Acting Minister during the last three to four months, and I've made comment about this before, despite the fact that the former Minister may think that it can run itself, it's not in the Lest interests of the people at this time to have a department operated by an Acting Minister.

We found a great deal of criticisms in this House in years past when we had the likes of the Agriculture Department represented by an Acting Minister and usually referred to as the part -time Minister of Agriculture or the part-time Minister of something else, and of course this criticism can be levelled at this time as well.

But there is a peculiar circumst.,nce here and that is that again never before have the natural resources of the province, the renewable natural resources of the province gone through a period of greater examination and debate with regards to their well-being particularly in relation to Hydro development. I think that that criticism has to be levelled fairly and honestly at the government that this has happened, that despite this great concern that has taken place at this time, that the department has been forgotten during the last several months.

I think that this position should be filled, this problem should be rectified as rapidly as possible so that the due administration is given to the interests of natural resources at this time. We will have questions as we go through the estimates particularly, with regard to such

June 8, 1972 2797 (MR. CRAIK cont'd) ••••• things as the Manitoba Water Commission, also Resource Planning, Environmental Management, all of these are items which are extremely important at this particular time. We have noted that the Minister has said that most of the estimates deal with the operat ing requirements of the department, some $18 million compared to $17 million last year. This is an on-going function of the department which is recognized as being vitally important.

We would have a question in item No. 6 as to the change in the Mineral Resource Development, as to the deletion from the estimates and its transfer to I presume some other location in the estimates of another department or under its own heading. With those few comments Mr. Chairman I would be prepared to go at the Estimates, item by item and reserve any further comments till we get to that point. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. PETER ADAM (Ste. Rose): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On this opportunity to say a few words on the Department of Mines and Natural Resources I presume I should first start out by congratulating the Honourable Minister for his operation of his department and also to congratulate him on being appointed the Acting Minister. I would like to pass a few remarks to him for his consideration with regards to the provincial park, and I would like also to pass a few remarks regarding the national parks. There was some mention in the previous department by the Minister of Tourism about the negotiations that were presently under way to establish another national park.

I have grave reservations about going into negotiations to establish another national park at this time and I will indicate my reasons why I do not approve another national park at this time. Mr. Chairman, I have been quite concerned as many members in this House know about conservation, not only to the wildlife, to fisheries, but also to forestry. I speak with some knowledge and I have made some investigation and I am sure that my remarks tonight will be of interest to members on both sides of the House.

I had the opportunity last summer to study the Riding Mountain National Park to some extent and I was extremely disappointed and amazed at the deterioration I found in the Riding Mountain National Park; it was obvious to me, Mr. Chairman, that there appears to be a lack of proper management. This is the only

interpretation I can arrive at. We have heard quite a bit lately about setting aside wilderness areas and I believe that nature can probably take care of itself and renew itself; howevever when man enters the picture it seems to get sidetracked somehow. The naturalists would like to see the parks in the wilderness state, but in the event of natural fire they also want to have these fires put out immediately. I was so concerned on what I saw in the Riding Mountain Park that I took it upon myself to correspond with a gentleman I have known for some years who's retired from the forestry.

He was stationed in Dauphin for many years, and I knew that this gentleman would be quite qualified to give me the reasons why the Riding Mountain Park would be deteriorating at such a fast pace. I wrote to him in March and I would like for the record to read my letter to him which is very short arid also his reply which I am sure that the members on the opposite side of this House will be very interested in hearing. I wrote on March 28th to Mr. Bjorn Balchen of Dauphin who is now retired from the Forestry Department. ''Dear Mr.

Balchen: During the summer of 1971 I had the occasion to spend some time inspecting the Riding Mountain National Park. The reason I was there was because of exces sive water runoff from the east escarpment of the mountain. While there, even though I am an ordinary layman, I could not help but notice the advanced stage of deterioration that the forestry was in. There were large areas where evergreens were in the process of dying with no new growth sprouting at the base.

Looking around the area I covered, I could not help but come to the conclusion that there is a serious lack of proper management of this forestry. I was wondering if you would care to let me have your comments and opinions regarding the conservation of some of our most prized possessions, our forest reserves and what in your opinion should be done to preserve these forests." I received a reply on April 3rd, the honourable gentleman was very prompt in replying to my letter. "Dear Mr.Adam:With reference to your letterof the28th Mayi state as follows" -- you will note, Mr.

Chairman, by this letter that the man is very knowledgeable as far as forestry is concerned. "Conservation is the opportunity to use rationally, build up and distribute fairly in terms of public benefit what we call the natural resources of the country and in my opinion, one of the

2798 June 8, 19 72 (MR.

ADAM cont'd) ••••• secrets of a successful nation or community is its productive power, guided or directed with understanding, Our forests constitute part of our natural resources and may be described as communities of living trees and associated organisms covering considerable areas and located chiefly on public lands, It may be said that the pro ductivity of the forest depends much upon the way its benefits are reaped by man and that the continuing flow of these benefits means skillful scientific management in the form of forestry or preservation of forests by wise use. ''We may say with some authority that the forested areas in our western district from an industrial or commercial point of view were discovered around 1885 when the first surveys of the so-called licensed timber berths were carried out.

We know that from 1888 and on, a considerable volume of green spruce saw timber were used both in and around Riding, Duck and Porcupine Mountains, as well as around Lake Winnipegosis.

"Special surveys led to the establishment of Riding, Duck and Porcupine Mountains forest reserves before 1906 and later on Riding Mountain was established and administered as a National Park under federal authority, I think we may assume that people in and around Dauphin and areas southwest and north vicinity above forest reserves consider these areas as the principal wood resources of the region and find that they are more or less affected in one way or another.

The so-called shortage of spruce saw timber was first experienced in the district around Grandview and this led to surveys being carried out during the late twenties and early thirties and so-called working plans were compiled and implemented for the above 'forested areas, at first being chiefly concerned at attempting to regulate the cut of green spruce saw timber in the form of allowable annual cuts determined under the principle of sustained yield or attempting to balance the cut with the estimated net growth.

This eventually developed into more or less recent inventory surveys both in the form of field work and aerial photography and a development of working plans which recommended annual allowable cuts of all the various species, The working plans also contained recommendations for silvicultural activities which we foresters consider the art of growing trees, harvesting and cutting and re moving trees for market. It has been stated that the forest management is absolutely depen dent for its general practice upon utilization of the products grown in the forest.

Cutting is a major tool which the forest managers must use to control the growth and development of the forest along desired lines to obtain the periodic harvest of forest products, Our forested areas control water runoff, prevent erosions, reduce extremes of temperature and wind velocity, provides a home for wildlife, serves as a magnificent recreational retreat for people, and last but not least . . . " MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please, I wonder if we could have a little less noise so I could hear what the honourable member is saying, The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

ADAM: "Last but not least produce wood which from a viewpoint of variety is said to be used for around 4, 500 purposes here on the American continent, and thus the products of the forest in the wood alone would appear to make this natural resource indispensable, We have to look upon this resource as a trust which we must protect and it is our duty to find out reasonably accurate how much forest we have, how fast it is growing and how fast it is being depleted.

"In recent years the establishment of so-called wilderness areas within certain national parks has been a policy more or less recommended for the benefit of campers, picknickers and other nature lovers. However, establishment of wilderness areas means that more or less no management except nature's own is to be practiced and of course this will result in large quantities of over-mature timber deteriorating, falling down and going to waste.

A situation may be found in the primeval forest where fires started by lightning usual�j are the only means of disposing of the above waste and the usual accumulation of insects and disease and providing conditions for reproduction of various tree species, but this would not be allowed by the fire protection services who would attempt to put the fires out as soon as possible.

"Driving through the Riding Mountain National Park we see an increasing number of over-mature timber deteriorating at a rapid rate and not being utilized for much needed lumber and other products and thus not providing much needed employment. The above park is surrounded by settlements that use a considerable amount of timber and other products that could be most conveniently obtained here. In my opinion the Riding Mountain National Park is a poor location for a so-called wilderness area and a constant source of conflict as such,

June 8, 1972 2799 (MR. ADAM cont'd) • • • • • The above area should revert back to the province and be operated as a forest reserve or as a provincial park in conjunction with the existing forest reserves and provincial parks under multiple use and sustained yield management. Sincerely, Mr. Bjorn Balchen. " Mr. Chairman, what this gentleman has said is true. This is what is happening at the present time as far as Riding Mountain is concerned.

I believe in past history Riding Mountain was nothing but a bald hill and if we do not have better management this mountain will return to its original state of being a bald mountain. I cannot emphasize too strongly, Mr. Chairman, that we be very careful in establishing . • • MR. CHAIRMAN: Quiet, please. I'm not going to tell you again. You're making too much noise in here. I can't hear what's going on. If you're going to have ten different con versations, go outside in the halls, go anywhere but go out of here. If you don't want to listen to what the member is saying well then go outside.

The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I cannot emphasize too strongly that we take a long and serious look at where we are heading at the present time as far as our forestry reserves are concerned. I would certainly think twice before we go into some agreement with the Federal Government to establish another park. I think we're quite capable of establishing our own where we can apply sound management so that it will be a renewable heritage for all time. I would like to, if I may until I'm cut off by you, Mr.

Chairman, move towards the inter-land lakes and the fishing industry in our province. As you are aware, I am a little familiar with the fishing industry in the province and I find over the past 15 years there has been a serious deterioration in the production on several of our lakes and I would refer pri marily to Lake Winnipegosis and Lake Dauphin which have deteriorated to almost the point of closing down. Not too long ago the pickerel production on Lake Winnipegosis was around the three million pound mark per annum and this has now deteriorated to about 500 , 000 pounds.

In fact, last winter the total production of pickerel was around 5, 000 pounds for the whole winter season -- (Interjection) -- 5, 000 pounds. We find also that there was an opinion in the past that there was little migration of fish from one lake to the other. This was the general feeling and the opinion and prior to 1969 there was absolutely no management to speak of. The management of the production on the lakes was left primarily to fish dealers, fishermen and ad hoc situations. We have found of late since 1969 there has been a little management but it is still seriously lacking in volume.

We find that there are not sufficient biologists. We have one biologist that looks after four lakes. I believe there's only three in Manitoba to cover the whole province and in the case of the biologist, Mr. Howard, is managing four lakes and most of his time is spent on other things than management because he doesn't have sufficient assistance. I think that we should be prepared to spend a little money in this area because we can reap benefits and profit by spending in this area. It is my intention, Mr.

Chairman, to keep pressing for rehabilitation and replenishment of the fish on these inland lakes and I mentioned that in the past it was thought that there was little migration of pickerel from one lake to the other but we find now that because of in creased water flows, more land being opened up, mo re arable land, more ditches being made, there's more runoff, faster runoff and we find that there is -- since we have begun tagging fish from one lake to the other we find now that there is a considerable migration from one lake to the other.

The fish move out through the streams by the excessive flow of water, faster flow of water, and therefore this is one of the reasons why we think now that Lake Winnipegosis no longer has any pickerel, or very little. Also we have been able to check the limits coming out of the lakes by the commercial fishermen. This is not too difficult to do but in the past 15 or 20 years and I would say since about 1955 there has been a tremendous increase in sports fishing, and in this area it appears that we do not have any control what soever as to how much fish is being taken out of the lake.

We have for instance at the Oveflowing River -- and I'm sure the Member for Swan River will be "interested in these remarks -- that at one time the Overflowing River was one of the prize rivers in Manitoba as far as spring fishing was concerned and at the present time it's practically nil. There are no controls about the amount of fish that's being taken out by sports fishermen and also I believe there's no check on the size. It's almost an

2800 June 8, 19 72 (MR. ADAM cont'd) •.••• impossibility to check so many people, I would think that we seriously have to look in this direction as far as sport fishing goes. We may have to delay the opening of sport fishing, There is evidence that we do catch females of spawning size, which is about two and a half pounds, in the spring; we have evidence that some of these fish being caught in the early part of the spring sport fishing season still have eggs to lay and they are being taken out, I think that we are going to have to take a long look at what is happening.

We also have to, because of the fact that there's so much water flowing down, we . , , MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member has five minutes. MR. ADAM: Five? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have to look at the possibility that there are perhaps fish going over the Fairford Dam from Lake Manitoba and they have no way of coming back because there is no fish ladder at that dam.

My understanding is it costs $80 ,000 to put a fish ladder -- (Interjection) -- I believe it's in the constituency of the Honourable Member from The Pas so I'm going to ask him to put a fish ladder in there, We interfere with the natural process of our natural resources when we put a block or a dam in the river and do not allow the free flow of the fish back and forth if they so desire. I only have five minutes, Mr. Speaker, so I'm going to have to close my remarks. I wanted to say, Mr.

Chairman, that I'm not too happy with the Department of Surveys, There is evidence that there is need for review in that department. The private surveyors are having difficulty in getting their plans processed in reasonable time. Some of the plans take as long as two years to be recommended. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that's all I'll have to say at this time. Thank you very much, MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR, FROESE: Mr. Chairman, there's not too much time left tonight. I won't be able to conclude my remarks, at least I don't think so, but nevertheless I'll see what I can do.

I don't think I can talk too much about fishing when it concern::: my riding. Naturally we have a lake just a little west of us, an artificial lake at Morden where people do go fishing but the fish in it are small and there are not too many of them in the lake, However, I would like to turn my attention to the matter of environment as the Minister mentioned, Before doing so I think I should first compliment the government and the depart ment on the work they have done to date, especially in my riding in connection with water and drainage.

I'm sure the people in the area appreciate what has been done and I do hope they finish up the job on the Hespeler and the Plum Creek -- especially at the east end where it goes into the Red, I don •t know for what reason or how this ever came about that they would start working on a floodway about two or three miles from the mouth and then go upstream and leaving about two or three miles left at the mouth of the river where it was sure to be doing damage once the Floodway was constructed, And this is exactly what is happening now. The farmer living in that area at St.

Jean has real trouble; he's had a lot of damage to his farm there and I would appeal to this government to do something to that stretch, It •s only two or three miles at the most -- (Interjection) -- Oh this is quite some years ago when it was started and at that time the people in the area tell me that provision had been made, the money had been set aside, but for some reason or other it had never been used for that purpose and therefore the work had never been done.

Maybe the Minister could find out some time just what did happen or what was the reason for this; and in order to complete the project on the Hespeler I hope he does pay attention to this and provide the necessary funds so this project can be com pleted, Otherwise the Hespeler project is one that is very worthy, worthy of comment and in deed worthy of this province to have proceeded with. It was one of those where you had flood ing taking place every so often and really harmed the area and removing topsoil and just ruin ing farms.

And when we talk of conservation, as well, I think conservation should g,o hand in hand with these water works or water improvement areas in that the government has acquired at least on 36 24, that's the one

section they have acquired roughly 50 acres or more of land and I think this area would lend itself ideally to having probably a small dam and conserving water in the area, The local wildlife people in the area are very interested in that. I'm sure that if they haven •t seen him already that they are most likely to see the people in his depart ment about this, So this is one area that I wanted to mention. I also wish to mention two other creeks on which the government has already done con siderable work as well.

One is the Deadhorse Creek on which they have done very considerable work and I think they are proceeding again this year, at least that was the intention last year, and I do hope they go ahead with it and also complete that project as soon as possible, The

June 8, 1972 280 1 (MR.

FROESE cont 'd). other one is south of Coulee where they too have done a lot of work , and I think very good work on this proj ect, too , in widening the channel , sloping the banks, and so on, and providing for improved flows and also not only improved flow also for taking care so that flood ing will not result, I also note that they have some breaks or these controls set in so that it will also guard the areas from deep washouts, I do hope the Minister takes cognizance of this and I would certainly go on record as thanking him for the proj ects that they have tackled and those that have been completed and those that are being worked on.

Another matter that I wish to comment on is in regard to the brochure that was put on our desks the other day. It's the 23 1/2 million outlay for new ARDA programs. I notice a certain portion of this applies to the Department of Agriculture, but other areas applied I think to the Honourable Minister's department , that dealing with environmental protection objectives, and so on, And under that we have Water Control , an item of 5, 7 million. It says here water management proj ects such as water conservation drainage, there's going to be 5. 7 million spent.

I already touched on what I had in mind and what I asked for , so I won't go on any further. But in addition to that this

article mentions that there are two studies under way, three research programs • • • MR, CHAIRMAN: Order , please. I' m sorry to interrupt the member but the hour for Private Members' time has arrived, Before we rise and report I would like to draw to the honourable members ' attention that we have used up 78 hours and 10 minutes of our Estimate time. We have used an hour on the last department for the first run which leaves an hour and three -- (Interjection) -- Is the mike on?

I' d like to draw to the members' attention that we have used up, as of tonight at 9:00 o'c lock, we've used up 78 hours and 10 minutes of our Supply time. We have 3 hours and 30 minutes remaining on the Department of Mines and ·Resources and Natural Environment , so when the 3 hours and 30 minutes are up we'll have run through the Estimates which will leave 8 hours and 20 minutes remaining to complete the 90 hours, Committee rise. Call in the Speaker . Mr . Speaker, your Committee of Supply begs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR.

SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Logan, MR, WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Poin t Douglas , that the report of the Committee be received, MR , SPE AKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, • • • • • continued on next page,

2802 June 8, 1972 PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR -P UBLIC BILLS MR . SPEAKER: Thursday: Private Members' Hour . The first item is Public Bills. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Rupertsland . The Honourable Member for Radisson . Bill No . 34 . MR. HARR Y SHA FRANSKY (Radisson): Mr . Speaker, I adj ourned debate on behalf of the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister -C ommissioner of Northern Affairs . HON. RON McBRYDE (Commis sioner of Northern Affairs)(T he Pas): Mr .

Speaker , this bill introduced as a private member's bill contains the same material , the same provi sion that we intended to introduce as government legislation . The member who introduced it of course -- I 'm not sure if he was aware of this or not -- had the advantage of not having to go through all the channels that a government bill has to go through before it can be' introduced into the Legislature . So while we were going through the process of getting it approved by Cabinet and caucus, it wa s introduced as a private member 's bill . Therefor e, Mr .

Speaker , we 'll accept this bill as it has been introduced as it has the same intention as the government bill that we were in the process of preparing. We may make a couple of amendments to it in Committee that are very minor , while the bill is open and before the Legislature . So other than that, Mr . Speaker , I would say that this is a change that the mayors and the community councils in the Northern Affairs area have been asking for and the original in tention was -- as you 're aware , Mr .

Speaker , these councils were a new experiment in self government in northern Manitoba -- the one year was a provision during that experimental stage -- now the community councils say they are quite ready for a two-year period , and this is what we had intended to do and we were out speeded and therefore, Mr . Speaker , we 'll support this particular bill as it is . · MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River . MR. BILTO N: Mr.

Speaker , we have examined this bill and understand its intent and we are prepared to let it go to Committee for further examination, but at the moment we have no objection whatsoever . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill . MR . BEARD: I believe this is good legislation, Mr . Speaker , and I endorse it lOO per- cent. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland shall be closing debate . The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR . JEAN ALL ARD (Rupertsland) : Mr . Speaker , I' m overwhelmed , that's all I can say. MR .

SPEAKER put the question and 'after a voice vote declared the motion carried . MR . SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Rupertsland. The Honourable Member for Radisson . Bill No. 41. MR . SHA FRANSKY: I beg the indulgence of the House to have the matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for . . . I 'm sorry. The Honourable Member for Thompson . MR . BOROWSKI: Mr . Speaker , ... say a few words on that resolution-- (Interjection)- Pardon ? No. 41. It will stand in -- the Member for Radisson . Well I simply want to say, Mr .

Speaker , that this looks like a bill that only a bachelor would submit, or a per son who doesn't know very much about what families do on weekends . I' ve heard some of the arguments on this bill, or this resolution . Most of them have given two reasons. One is that it's the Sabbath, the other one is it's conservation . My rea son is, Mr . Speaker , is families traditionally go on weekends, whether it's to a lake , or to a river, or to a park, or to some other place, and it gets dangerous enough on our highways to get to the place, Mr .

Speaker , I' d hate to have some nut shooting on Sunday to endanger the people that are out on these picnic areas, and I' m surprised that the Member for Rupertsland would bring in such a silly resolution, and I' m sure it will be treated with the respect it deserves when it's solidly voted down as I'm going to . MR . SPEAKER: Agreed that the motion will stand in the name of the Honourable Member for Radisson? (Ag reed) On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for As siniboia. Bill No. 64. MR . PATRICK pre sented Bill No. 64, The Manitoba Bill of Rights, for second reading. MR .

SPEAKER presented the motion .

June 8, 1972 2803 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia . MR . PATRICK: Mr. Speaker , I believe that many members are quite familiar with the substance of this bill because I had a resolution before the House last session which I did deal in quite detail . I also wish to bring to the attention of the members that Alberta introduced similar legislation, an Alberta Bill of Rights was introduced during this session of the Legis lature and the government in that province placed a tremendous amount of stress on this type of legislation .

I believe strongly that the worth, value and dignity of individuals should be recognized, enhanced and protected by law . I believe that governments exist to serve not dominate the individual, and that public officials and servants should not be masters of the public . I believe in an open and just society where basic individual freedoms and human rights are respected, and where individuality and diversity are not feared but welcomed . I also believe in participa tory democracy where all citizens have access to public institutions that influence their lives.

Manitobans are already protected by the Canadian Bill of Rights but that legislation , Mr . Speaker, deals with the federal level of activity . Under the BNA Act it is the Provincial Government which has the authority to deal in the area of civil liberty - an authority that up to now has remained unexercised in the Pro vince of Manitoba . If Manitoba is to establish a bill of rights it must be in my opinion broad in scope . It is not enough to limit the rights to those which could be agreed upon in the eighteenth century.

A modern bill of rights should include the right to receive an education paid for by the state, the right to medical services, and the right of the disabled or the infirm to such assistance as will enable them to live with dignity. By the same token the Manitoba Bill of Rights should guarantee and extend traditional rights, including freedom of the press and access by the individuals to the communication media. Mr . Speaker, I believe that many members will remember that the national movement towards a bill of rights was given its greatest moment by the Honourable John Diefenbaker when he was in opposition .

I believe he was its loudest champion . While he did not perhaps keep all of his promises when he became Prime Minister, he did on this issue. When he became Prime Minister he did pass a bill establishing a Bill of Rights for matters within the federal jurisdiction. I believe the courts have steadfastly interpreted the Bill of Rights so as to give it substance and meaning since that time. It has indeed been a help to many people, to minorities; it has been an aid to the poor ; it has been an aid to the disadvantaged . So I believe that Mr .

Diefenbaker certainly did the right thing when he introduced this legislation . In short a bill of rights for Manitoba should guarantee not only legal but also social and political and economic rights . It should be capable of being easily extended as society agrees to confirm new rights . You will remember , Mr . Speaker, that during the last session of this House I did present a resolution calling on the government to formulate a bill of rights.

At that time the Attorney-General who is charged with the responsibility of protecting individual rights in the province indicated that such legislation was not needed, partly because mechanisms such as . the Human Rights Commission were already doing a job in this area, and partly because the Attorney-General says that the government itself has the best interests of the citizens at heart and will protect them. Mr . Speaker , in my opinion this is not good enough.

If the Attorney General is so certain that there are no violations of human rights taking place in Manitoba today I'd invite him to say so to the native people . I invite him to tell this to the thousands of Manitobans who are sent to jail each year for small offences, petty offences, simply because they haven't got the money to pay a fine. I invite him to offer the protection of the govern ment to some of the landowners who have a problem on Hecla Island . I also invite him to make sure that the people at South Indian Lake will have the same protection .

So I know that the list of violations are many and , Mr . Speaker, I believe that there are many other things such as it is illegal to wire tap . But illegally obtained evidence is still allowed to be heard in court . Legislation is passed giving public officials power to control individual economic rights . Citizens are disenfranchised because of economic status. Laws are pre sented to this As sembly with retroactive effects, which certainly has an effect on many of the citizens . For these and many other reasons I 'm convinced that we must enact a bill of rights in Manitoba.

We must protect not only the basic and fundamental freedoms that we possess by virtue of our common humanity but we must also state that the new rights that have become necessary to protect our citizens. If my memory serves me correctly , Mr . Speaker,

2804 June 8, 1972 (MR . PAT RICK cont'd) ..•.. the major criticisms last year on the resolution that I present ed was by the Atto rney-General , was that too often that the Bill of Rights has been ignored by other states, or by other countries, particularly, the Honourable Attorney-General mentioned, by Co mmunist countries and that the rights enshrined are very often difficult to enforce and are ignored .

I shall resist the temptation to pursue this argument with the Minister but surely -I'm sure that he does not compare some of the Communist countries to the country as we know it, Canada, and our country here . Surely he cannot compare . We must recognize and declare that in Manitoba all human beings are considered to have been born free and equal in dignity and rights .

They have been endowed with reason and conscience and there must exist certain human rights of fundamental freedom without discrimination by reason of race, national origin, colour, religion , belief, sex, marital status, property status, age, social or national origin or geographic loc ation . If we believe this then we must enshrine this Act and protect those rights by the power of law . We must give the individual citizen the weapon with which to fight some of the inequities that exist at the present time. Mr. Speaker , I am proud to present this bill to the As sembly, a copy of the Suggested Bill of Rights.

I am sure that constructive debate will add to, delete from , or alter parts of this Bill , strengthening an overall effect. I look forward to the debate that will follow and the swift passage of a Bill of Rights by the House. I am satisfied that we can no longer rely on the good grace of government to protect those human rights that we once held so sacred and I think it's time that we move in this area . Mr . Speaker, we have the opportunity to make history today and to take a giant step to wards the time when all Manitobans will enjoy equal opportunity and be considered as equals before the Law .

May I point out again , the government of Saskatchewan have introduced or have had a bill of rights in the province for a few years now . I understand that the major piece of legislation that was introduced by the new Premier in Alberta, Mr . Lougheed, was the Bill of Human Rights and they have an ombudsman act legislation in that province . So, Mr . Speaker , it's timely that we proceed and I hope that all members will be able to take part and support this legislation . MR . SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: Mr .

Speaker, I have long been concerned with such things as a proposed Bill of Rights which are supposed to guarantee the rights of people and over the years, Mr . Speaker , I have most closely bec ome acquainted with this supposed granting of rights by legislature by a

section of the Labour Relations Act . My colleague, the Minister of Labour will be well aware of the

section as should be the Honourable Member for Ass iniboia . The

section says that every person, every employee has the right to be a member of a trade union and by this type of legislation, Mr . Speaker, trade unionists in Canada have for years been brainwa shed into thinking that the legislation , that a legislature , a group of people pas sing laws, gave them the right to be members of trade unions; that if that clause did not exist they could not be members of trade unions . With the result, Mr . Speaker , that they have come to believe that the rights of individuals come from legislatures. Mr .

Speaker, it should be obvious that just the opposite is true; that a legislature cannot confer rights, it can only abridge rights. It is true that a legislature can by dealing with the ecopomy create con ditions which could give people more freedom, but the Legislature cannot confer liberty. And as a matter of fac t, Mr. Speaker, quite often we have seen these bills of rights so-called, used for the very opposite purpose for that which they were intended .

For instance, the law that says that every person has the right to be a member of a trade union has been interpreted by courts to mean that because the Legislature conferred that right of trade unionism it has the right to abridge it, extend it, deprive it by cancell,ng the section. Mr . Speaker , I think that this is the kind of

interpretation of the law that I heard last night at a meeting that I was at in Wolseley constituency and the four candidates were present . Under the recent thing that has happened, the Chairman of Hydro presented to the City of Winnipeg the right to say that they wanted to either sell the City Hydro or not sell it, and the Leader of the Liberal Party, who I understand is responsible for the presentation of this bill of rights and does so through one of his members which is perfectly legitimate, Mr .

Chairman, he got up and said, he got up and said that the Chairman of Hydro offering the city the right to either sell or not sell the City Hydro was theft, Mr . Speaker . He said that that legally is theft. That was the statement of the Leader of the Liberal Part y. Mr . Speaker , I went to law school, I must have gone to a different Law School than the Leader of the Liberal Part y who

June 8, 1972 2805 (MR . GREEN cont'd) ..... defines an offer to buy something, which could be accepted or not accepted as theft. Well, Mr . Speaker , if that's the kind of legal advice that the Leader of the Liberal Party is giving to his clients and charging them for it, then I say that that's theft.

Because anybody who would define theft as somebody making a proposal which can be accepted or rejected and charging money for it is stealing, and for him to accuse this govern ment of theft because they have made that kind of proposal, indicates again the incapacity of the Wizard of lz who is suggesting that that is theft. Mr . Speaker , if Joe Zuken defined it as theft, if Joe Zuken defined it as theft, then he and Izzie Asper should climb into the same bed together and have the same condemnation of their legal advice .

I articled with Joe Zuken and I know that when I articled in his office he didn 't teach me that that was theft, so he must have lost something between the time that I articled for him and the present time if that's what he calls theft. But, Mr . Speaker, that's the kind of presentation that you've got in this bill ,

section 24 , and I don't quote the clause as dealing with the clause. I just quote the clause as an example of what this legislation purports to do : "Every individual has the right to freedom of movement and residence within Manitoba and has the right to leave and return to the province ." Imagine that . Mr . Asper is going to come to this legislature and one of the things that he is going to do , is he is going to pass the law that says that every individual has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the province and has the right to leave and return to the province . Mr .

Speaker, I suppose next year he will move an amendment to the law , and say instead of every individual has the right to freedom of movement and residence within Manitoba and has the right to leave and return to the province , he will cross out "the right to leave" so that people will not have the right to leave the province . . Because, Mr . Speaker , strange as that may seem, that is the way the courts have interpreted Bills of Rights.

Would it surprise the honourable member to know , would it surprise the honourable mem ber to know that in the United States, the law , the Constitution which guaranteed life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was construed by the Supreme Court of Canada -- and my facts will not be entirely correct, but they will be more correct than the Leader of the Liberal Party 's statement that it's theft, because I am quoting from memory -- they construed the pursuit of happiness to mean property - life, liberty and property .

They then said that the Constitution of the United States of America meant that slavery could not be changed, because it was in the Constitution, slaves were property, the Con stitution guaranteed life, liberty and property . Do you know that that law was interpreted by the United States as declaring ultra vires of the States that tried to do so, a graduated income tax. Mr .

Speaker, this bill is intended to make it contrary to the legislature, unless they change the bill -- I agree that a bill is different than a constitution in that one legislature could change it to the next by just changing a statute which you can' t do with a constitution -- but this bill is intended to create a hassle as to whether or not when the government said that they want to have an automobile insurance industry where Manitobans would underwrite their own automobile insurance, that this is intended to create a hassle as to whether that interferes with every person having the right to life , liberty, security of the person and enjoyment of property .

I want to tell the Honourable Member for Assiniboia that I consider that the law of England, the British Isles which has passed statutes, I agree they have passed Bills of Rights, but they have never had con stitutional guarantees of rights and that the freedom of the people in England has therefore not been endangered, it has been extended as co mpared with that of the United States.

And I want to tell the Member for As siniboia as well, that some of the finest consti tutional Bills of Rights -- and I will admit, that I shouldn't be so harsh about a bill, because a bill really is meaningless and can be changed. -- (Interjection)-- Right . The Honourable Minister of Labour says a bill is a bill .

That a bill is rather harmless because next year the Legislature can come along and amend the bill and the foll owing year when you want to enact a Law which may come in conflict with the bill in court, you can accept the bill and that really it becomes a very worthless and irrelevant document and is presented more or less as a state ment of piousness.

In arguing that I want the honourable member to know that I don 't want to be as harsh as I sound, because there are members of this side and there are members of the New Democratic Party and they have advocated bills of rights and I have argued with them similar to . what I am now arguing with the Member for As siniboia, and I don't know really what the position will be on this bill . All I 'm indicating is that those people who place their rights in the legis lature do so ill advi sedly, because the legislature can only take away rights.

2806 June 8, 1972 (MR . GREEN cont '

d) If there were no legislation at all , which I don't agree with, then presumably man could behave as he wants to and therefore the law , the legislature when its enacted and society ... starts passing bills and decl ares laws against murder , decl ares laws against theft --( Inter jection)-- pardo n me ?-n o, I'm not against laws.

I don't want the honourable member to think that I' m against laws, I' m saying that where a law , where there is no specific law with regard to what I am doing, then I don 't have to have the Member for Assiniboia to tell me that I as an individual have the right to freedom of movement and residence within Manitoba . Is there some body who now does not have the right of movement and residence in Manitoba? Is there someone who does not now have the right to leave and return to the Province of Manitoba ? -(Interjection) Pardon me ?

The Honourable Member for Thompson says that the Hutterites don't have a ri ght to leave Manitoba? They don 't have a right to return to Manitoba ? They positively do. They have bound themselves by a contr act which a husband and wife do too, and you know, if we are going back to the Member for Winnipeg Centre's bill about the Hutterites ••• MR . PA ULLEY : Oh, here comes Human Rights now . MR . SPEAKER : Does the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge have a point of order ? MRS . INEZ TRUEMAN (Fo rt Rouge): No , it was a question, Mr . Speaker . Would the member permit a question?

When he was asking whether there was anyone now who did not have freedom to move in and out of Manitoba, I wondered whether he was aware of the legis lation passed in Quebec which has restricted doctors from leaving the province , selling their houses, or disposing of their practices? MR .

GREEN: I want to tell the Member for Fort Rouge, I want to tell the Member for Fort Rouge that I argued in this House against requiring people to go to work and I said that if you are going to require a working man to wo rk or go to jail , then some day some legislature will decide that if you can do it with a working man you can do it with a lawyer , and if you can do it with a lawyer , still worse , you can do it with a doctor , and that some legislature would try to pass laws telling doctors to go to work or go to jail. I said that in about 1966 .

The fact is that in 1971 I believe it was , in the fall of 1971 or the fall of 1970 , the Quebec Government passed a law saying that doctors would either have to go to work or go to jail . I opposed that law and spoke against it in this country and in the Province of Quebec, even though many of the people there thought that this was a good idea; but I spoke against it for a working man and I spoke against it for a doctor. I wonder whether the same people who speak against it for doctors also speak against it for working men ?

Or would the Member for Rock Lake say that you should not require long sharemen to load grain on ships which don't want to pay them the amount of wages that they think they should get. Would he say that the longshoreman has the same right to sit back and say I want more pay as the doctor does ? Because I'v e heard him say the opposite . Now at least I' ve been the same on both positions. But the fact is that what the Member for Fort Rouge is saying is not protected by a bill of rights.

It is not protected by - I don't like the law, it abhors me and if I thought that pas sing this bill of rights would prevent that kind of law , I could be persuaded. And as a matter of fact, I admit that some people including myself, could be persuaded that on the basis of it not being very relevant that the bill could be passed, you know -- (Interjection)-- as a declaration , the First Minister says as a declaration -i t gives some expre ssion of intention. I believe , and I admit that this is a personal opinion, that it's a dangerous kind of declaration.

It's a dangerous thing to have to say that every individual has the right to freedom of movement and residence within Manitoba and has the right to leave and return to the province , because I believe that they have that ri ght now . And I believP that no legislator including the Member for As siniboia gives it to me; and the day I have to wait for him to give it to me , I' m in trouble. Therefore I personally have always argued , Mr .

Speaker , and I know that in this respect I am probably going to be labelled as a right wing Conservative, but I have always argued against a constitutional attempt to enshrine rights. The Member for Morris will probably check me up in saying that this is not a consti tutional attempt to enshrine rights, this is a bill . -- (Interjection)-- Pardon me ? The Bill of Rights in Sa skatchewan was introduced by a CC F government . Does it surprise the honourable member to know that I sometimes disagree with what a CC F government will do ? Because I' ve said that lots of times.

And on the other hand , the fact is that the specific right that may be intended, and where they have been interfered with such as has been passed by this province with regard to human rights, and those stemming from discrimination against race , creed, colo ur and religion , although they don't prove to be as effective as some like they do make a

June 8, 1972 2807 (MR . GREEN cont'd) ..... declaration , which hopefully has a public impact, and hopefully has an educational value , and then does also provide some enforcement procedures. I 'm rather sorry , Mr . Speaker , that I was so hard on the question because it really doesn't deserve as much opposition as I' ve put to it . I 'm not even suggesting that it shouldn't be passed; and I 'm not suggesting that the po sition that will be taken by myself or anybody else on this side.

All I'm indicating is that I have never had faith in this type of legislation; I think that the persons who do place their faith in this type of legislation, don 't place it very well, and I think that the rights of the individual depend on people continuing to assert their rights and to some extent not permitting Legislatures to interfere with those rights . And therefore , Mr . Speaker , standing and speaking to this bill I do so merely to indicate that it doesn't nearly have the kind of effect that some people claim for it and that furthermore it has dangers, because once --( Interjection) -- danger .

Because once individuals expect that their rights are protected by a bill of this kind then they don 't protect them in the traditional way . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morr is. MR . JORGENSON: Mr . Speaker, I should like to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon West, that the debate be adjourned . MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried . PRIVATE MEMBERS' BILLS MR . SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for -- Private Bills now, we 've exhausted public bills -- the Honourable Member for Inkster. MR .

GREEN: I ask the indulgence of the House to let this matter stand . MR . SPEAKER: ,Agreed ? (Ag reed) Private Members' Resolutions. PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTIONS MR . SPEAKER: On the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for St . Vital . sorry -- The Honourable Member for Riel . Resolution No. 26 . MR. CRAIK: Mr . Speak er , I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River , that

WHEREAS an Arctic Islands Pipeline to transport natural gas to southern markets is likely to become viable in the next few years, and

WHEREAS the most direct route for such a pipeline would appear to traver se Manitoba from north to south approximately past Churchill and to the east of Lake Winnipeg, and

WHEREAS any such large construction project will have some impact on the natural environment, and

WHEREAS the environmental factors ought to be considered in the-design and route se lection of such a pipeline, particularly in the permafrost affected zones of northern Manitoba, THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Manitoba Government consider the advisability of undertaking or causing to be undertaken sufficient and adequate environmental base line studies to ensure an environmental input in the early planning of route location . MR . SPEAKER presented the motion . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel . MR . CRAIK: Mr . Speak er, the resolution presented I think is very timely in light of the announcements that we 've had in Ca nada in the last few days and it's with some degree of good fortune I think that it is brought before the Legislature at this time.

Unlike the resolution which I had the privilege to speak to last night where I said that politics being the art of the pos sible meant that something such as that could be deferred until the day of concern and -- came more clo sely. With regards to this resolution I think that if we follow that criteria that politics is the art of the possible, we 've had very good reason to stop and look at a resolution such as this when the concern for environmental factors has become so great. We've seen in Manitoba a very increasing and significant rise in concern for environ mental matters.

I think in the initial stages of a concern such as this we probably have a tenden cy to write off such things as environmental factors as being out of reach because basically they're not understood . But environmental planning has so much become a part of the planning for large projects such as this that we 've seen in the McKenzie Valley pipeline studies, for in stance, millions of dollar s put into environmental planning . The Federal Government alone has announced that it will spend over three years $15 million on environmental work in the McKenzie Valley in preparation for pipeline corrido rs.

The industry to match that has announced in one

2808 June 8, 1972 (MR . CR AIK cont'd) ..... case that it is spending in the order of $12 million for a pipeline environmental study. Another industry also interested has indicated that it will spend $5 million , and an oil line interest has indicated that it will spend in the order of $10 million on environ mental studies. Mr .

Speaker , if you add all these up, and if they're all correct, if they do all apply to environmental studies, then the McKenzie Valley alone running from the Great Slave Lake -- my honourable friend from Swan River tells me that, since that was originally his home country-r uns for a total length of 1, 500 miles from Alberta up to the Alas ka area . We find an input in environmental work which will precede construction by some two or three years, an input of probably 50 million or more dolla rs.

I would say if you added up all the figures I gave it's probably 60 to 80 million dollar s, althought I' m sure that it isn't all on environmental work although it has been indicated to be such . Therefore, Mr . Speaker , the environmental planning for a project such as this is now very much a reality .

That 's why I bring this reso- lution before the House. · The pipeline that we 're discussing here, which was announced this week by the Federal Government and Pan Arctic Oils, indicates that as a result of the finds in the Arctic Islands that the reserves are now up to better than half of that required to justify a pipeline . And given the shortage, the crisis which has been identified in the United States for natural gas, I think you can be almost sure whether you like it or not as a resident of Manitoba that this gas will very likely be exported .

It will be exported because of national decisions not because of any provincial involveme nt . Therefore as I say whether you want to export the gas on a national basis or not the decision is outside of your hands , so you might as well make the best of it.

And I think it is in the best interests of Manitoba if the Provincial Government takes the initiative to see that any pipeline that did come from the Arctic Islands passed through Manitoba if for no other reason than to insure that at some future date, whether it's 10 years from now , or 15 years from now , or 20 years from now , that the next generations will be inSured in this part of Ca nada of an adequate supply because the basic reserves now are in the Arctic Islands . The announcement that came out this week from Ottawa is that they are considering two alternate routes.

They run the one route that they're looking at, and will look at, on their initial aerial study runs from the central Arctic in the islands down the east side of the Hudson Bay across Baffin Island down the east side of the Hudson Bay and into Montreal , basically nearly entirely through the Province of Quebec. The other alternate runs down from the Central Arctic , from the same source, down the west side of Hudson Bay and therefore follows the line that has been indicated basically in the resolution. There is one small differ ence .

The line that they are proposing does not come down through the southern part of Manitoba but rather cuts across through about Gillam and into Ontario and then down into the Hamilton , Ontario , area . I think, Mr.

Speaker , that efforts have to be made by Manitoba to insure first of all that this line will go on the west side of the Hudson Bay, and I think as important try and insure that if they can exert any influence that it does not cut out of Manitoba and into Ontario in the Gillam area but proceeds further to the west and down through southern Manitoba and past the more heavily industrialized area in the vicinity of Winnipeg. :rhat way you '11 have a pipeline servicing Manitoba from north to so uth, from one extremity to the other, and it will be a large source of gas, very likely a 48- inch line , or larger , if they happen to be building them larger at that time, and would be in the best interests of everybody in this province if they could have access to it.

Now the point of the resolution , Mr . Speaker , is to not point up the fact that this is going to be an energy source but is to urge the government to see that the environmental studie s are taken or are looked at early enough in the game, and I would say that in this case that probably there is five years available here to do this, and that's not too much time for envirc:-�mental studies as the government and former governments have learnt these things do take time .

We find now hydro decisions being made in northern Manitoba on South Indian Lake , Lake Winnipeg and the Nelson chain , where the environmental studies, although they've been operating for a matter of a year or two, are not completed and decisions are being made without their com pletion . This is not a good way to operate and particularly now since we have behind us the experience of other large developments of this sort, particularly in Manitoba, I think that we cannot urge the importance too greatly of undertaking the work with regards to any potential pipeline at this time. And as a matter of fact, Mr .

Speaker, I think it's pretty safe to say that the costs of doing studies well in advance are much less than if they're done on a rushed and hurried basis . So this resolution requests the government to take some prel iminary looks as

June 8, 1972 2809 (MR . CR AIK cont'd) ..... soon as possible to determine if there is a best route that in over all terms can be recommended and after this is done , after the environmental work is done , then to add that to the other decision-m aking factors as to what the economic viability, or economic value is of it going in any particular location. And if the environmental costs are such that the line can be justified to go in one location over the other, then this is all to the good .

But the important factor here is to make sure that this type of work is done well in advance of the -- in the planning stage so that the base line inventory is done on all those matters that have to be taken into account whether it's wildlife , whether it's furbearers , whether it's fish, or whether it's waterfowl , or whether it's the permafrost problems associated with ground ice, or whether it is those many other aspects that go in to making up what is generally considered to be the more fragile environment during the summer period of the northern areas where permafrost and slower processes of biological growth take place .

But it is the interest of Manitobans to see that all of these things are taken in and accounted for in a base line study at a very early date . After this is done this type of information can be built into the planning that goes into the engineering and design stage and this type of process is also -- is already working itself out in the designs that are going on in the McKenzie Valley work . So , Mr .

Speaker , I think that without saying a great deal more on this topic, this reso lution asks the government to consider the advisability of either undertaking through their Mines and Natural Resources Department, or having caused to be undertaken through associa tion with private interests, such as the pipeline companies, a study which will provide at the earliest possible date the basic environmental data upon which decisions can be made from first of all the physical requirements of the area and then integrate into that decision the economic input of where the pipeline should go to serve the greatest needs of the people .

But I' m sure that if Manitoba shows this initiative now , shows that it is doing its planning , that it has checked out the environmental requirements, that it will be an input into deciding whether or not Manitoba will have this gas coming in from the Arctic Islands made available to it and ensuring its future requirements for the energy supplies which are so important in this part of the world in the cold climates. So with those remarks, Mr . Speaker , I again recommend this resolution to the House. I 'm sure that it will be found satisfactory. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill . MR .

BEARD: I would rise to support the principle of this resolution. I don 't know just what the costs would be and that's why I say I would support the principle of it. If it's going to run into the millions of dollars then I think that we would have to reach out and find some assistance and perhaps we should be loo king at Ottawa and saying are you going to assist in environmental studies?

I believe industry itself should be putting some money into such a study, particularly the industry that is going to benefit from the development of the resource itself at the first stage and of course the people who are going to build the pipeline . And that brings me to a second thought . Who is going to own the pipeline ? And I believe that this should be one of the important things to a layman . We always become concerned about the sale of energy to the States, in one form or another , but I think the pipeline in itself could be something that Canadians themselves invest in .

I don 't know how they would do it , maybe through the Canadian CDC I believe it is, Ca nadian Development Corporation , which has recently been formed to invest Canadian money in Ca nadian industry, to invest it at a profit and to encourage Canadians to invest in Canada; and to invest in Canadian companies rather than in the blue chip companies which those people maintain are mostly American funded .

I think that we have come to the point where we look at some of our large resource companies and I have been one in the years back that have said these large companies will have to invest more and more of their money in Canada .

And that was right for a good many years and that received a lot of applause, but now people.a re saying well these large companies come and stay in Canada and then they start to own more and more Canadian things and they don 't seem to like that, so I 'm just not sure where one stands on that particular subject today , but I do think that gas is very important in the development certainly, as far as we are concerned, of northern Manitoba .

I think that if I heard the Member for Riel correctly, he said that the line could be cut into · and used to distribute gas in Manitoba and that certainly encouraged me, because if there' s one thing we need it is a distribution of gas to many of the areas . I think that it would be good com petition in an area in which we are opening in northern Canada, Manitoba; I think that even in

2810 June 8, 1972 (MR . BEARD cont'd) . Winnipeg and many of our southern towns could use more and more gas as time goes by . I believe that if we can signify to this company that there is a place for their product in Manitoba, it would encourage them to develop and carry on through the whole. of the Pro vince of Manitoba. This must give them a return for using the Province of Manitoba as their pipeline area, and in return too, then I suppose the municipalities in which it passes through will get a return on a tax base which will help them.

So on this basis I certainly am willing to quickly support this type of resolution. I do say though that I think that in gathering up the material that's necessary in studying our environment , we 've got to . study the cost of this, Mr . Speaker , and be careful in finding what the cost is; in assessing the cost we must reach out to other areas of Canada and industry if the cost is too high for us to bear in Manitoba, because others will benefit from this study as well as Manitobans . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Os borne . MR . IAN TURNBU LL (Osborne): Thank you, Mr .

Speaker, I hope it will not come as too overwhelming a surprise to the members of the Conservative Party and particularly to the Member for Riel to hear me say that I agree with the resolution that he has presented to the House tonight. There are a few minor amendments to his resolution that I would like to propose which I will do so near the end of my short contribution .

I would like to point out to him that I welcome his resolution for two reasons: First of all , I welcome him to those of the Manitoba community who prefer to undertake large developments of our natural resources only after the due study and research has been done about the possible damage to the ecology that could come as a result of those man.:-made · development s. It 's only in the short past, Mr .

Speaker , that the Member for Riel was a part of a govern ment that did desire to undertake major development of our national resources around South Indian Lake , back in 68- 69, early 69, without a really adequate and thorough study of the ecological damage that would result from a 30-foot high-level diversion of South Indian Lake . So I welcome the resolution then as it marks him as a man who is concerned about ecological damage , as a man who is willing to see adequate studies of possible damage to the ecology undertaken before the development gets under way.

I welcome his resolution, too, because if we can here in Manitoba manage to secure the routing of a natural gas pipeline, especially of the magnitude of pipe that he spoke of, namely 48 inches, through this province, it will mean a tremendous development of the economy I would think, it would mean jobs for many Manitobans, it would mean a stimulation of the economy which would certainly benefit everyone . So I welc ome his resolution insofar as it attempts to plan for the eventuality of a pipeline built through our provinc e. I gather, Mr .

Speaker , that he looks upon Manitoba as a likely route for this natural gas pipeline because of the announcements that were made recently. The Member for Riel did cite the possible two routes that could be used, one east of Hudson Bay and one on the west of Hudson Bay . I gather that these developments would be the logical outcome of the gas finds that have recently been made on Ellesmere Island and King Christian Island .

These finds could mean that the gas, as I understand it anyway, could be brought into, I think it's Somerset Island and then brought south from that Island through the Arc tic and into Manitoba . It certainly is an exciting concept, Mr . Speaker , and I hope that the Government of Manitoba r..nd the Federal Government could together , jointly , undertake the necessary baseline studies that would be required .

I think the Member for Riel did point out that these baseline studies would include a review , an inventory of all the geological , land form vegetational fish and wildlife conditions that exist within the Province of Manitoba . Such a study needs to be undertaken I thi'lk -- 10: 00 o'clock, Mr . Speaker ? MR . SPEAKER: Order , please . The honourable member will have an opportunity to continue the next time. The hour of adj ournment having arrived, the House is accordingly adjo urned and stands adjourned until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning .

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-109
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 109.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b4287c78176d327f9750e4d1a3fb8f8272941f47

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