VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, JUNE 10, 1977 NO. 118

June 10,1977 The House met at 10.00 a.m. :Hr. Speaker in the Chair • Tape 4122 - Morning MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AH-1 The hon Minister of ~lines and Energy rises on a point of personal privilege. }!R. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I w·an t to address myself to an

article that appeared on the front page of the Dailv News this morning in which it is implied that a bill to regulate Newfoundland Hydro which is the intention that government has given over several months and the fact that I as minister responsible gave notice of that bill two days ago. The

article here sort of indicates that the government will not be in a position to introduce this bill and I want to correct this

article to the-- extent that the hill will be introduced as notice was given of it a couple of days ago and also to correct an editorial given by CJON radio this morning which indicated pretty definitively that their information was that the bill would not be introduced and I want to set it on the record that it is the intention of this administration, this government to introduce that bill. Hopefully it will be done on Monday or Tuesday of next week. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I think the Chair would be inclined to accept that statement as one of explanation and clarification unless the hon minister wishes to bring in some definitive motion arising out of a point of privilege. MR.. SPEAKER: }fR. HICKMAN: STATEMENTS BY ~INISTERS Hon Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise the House that Honourable Hr. Justice John Hilliam Hahoney of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland Trial Division has agreed to conduct the enouiry into the matters raised in this hon House on Monday. The Honourable Mr. Justice James - SOME HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 11597

__ J_ June 10,1977 Tape 4122 - Morning AH-2 - John William 'Hahoney says the terms of reference are being drawn up and may be submitted to Mr. Justice Mahoney for his imput before submitted to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council and he too has been asked to find suitable council. . ffi.. SPEAKER: Ron Leader of the Opposition • MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, let me say for our part that we on this side welcome the announcement for two reasons.

First of all we welcome the announcement that the government have acted as they undertook to do under some considerable pressure particularly from my colleague from Burgeo· - Bay D'Espoir and I believe the gentleman from LaPoile was very vocal and outspoken on the issue as well 1.1598

June 10, 1977 Tape 4123 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Oh well, yes, and I said a few words as well here two or three months ago which also were related to it. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, we welcome the news that Mr. Justice ~1ahoney has agreed to accept this commission. Mr. Justice Mahoney is well know to all members of the House. He had a distinguished career at the bar and his career as a member of the bench has been equally distinguishe~and he has, I think, won himself a very great reputation as a member of the bench equal to that he had won as a member of the bar. We are very delighted with that.

I would hope, Sir, that the Hinister of Justice in drafting the terms would do my colleagues on the Public Accounts Committee the courtesy to ask their views on it. I think that would be right. I think it would be appropriate and I think it would be proper. And I venture to suggest, Sir, it would also be desirable given the way in which the administration restricted the terms of an earlier inquiry, the one be~ng carried out by the Chief Justice, Mr. Furlong - the hon. R. S. Furlong.

And I would suggest to the minister most earnestly that the draft terms of reference as well as being submitted to the Commissioner, Hr. Justice Mahoney, should also be submitted to the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee for his comments thereon. It is the government's duty to enact the terms of reference. The Commissioner does not set them, the House does not set them - it is the Cabinet, it is a political decision by the Cabinet.

I would suggest that in view of the seriousness of this situation - and I think the evidence which has been exposed to date shows that the situation is serious - that it would be desirable in every sense of the ~vord to ask for the comments of the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, my colleague from Burgee -Bay d'Espoi~ (Mr. Simmons) who has done an admirable job of exposing a situation which needs to be exposed. AN RON. r-!EMBER: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: And so, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to 1.:1599

June 10, 1977 Tape 4123 EC - 2 HR. ROBERTS: the minister that he do this. I think he would save himself a considerable degree of possible controversy and I think that he would certainly enhance the terms of reference. We have seen too many narrowly restricted terms of reference in these commissions of inquiry. I think it is important this one not only be carried out - it will be carried out superbly by Mr. Justice Mahoney - but I think, that the government make sure there is no cover up.

I think that is important, Sir, and the only way to do that is to have the terms of reference vetted by at least the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, because then we will have an open inquiry, not the sort of narrowly restrictive one which the Premier has blundered into with Mr. Justice Furlong. MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER MOORES: HR. HICKMAN: HR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: Agriculture. ~1R.. MAYNARD: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR.. SPEAKER: MR. MAYNARD: Order, please! That was a narrow accusation. That is right. But a truthful accusation. The hon. Minister of Forestry and Mr. Speaker, I would like to present - Oh, oh!

The hon. minister. Hr. Speaker, I would like to present to the House at this time a new policy with respect to the processing of appli­ cations for agricultural land leases. And the approach that I am taking is to classify different types of agriculture enterprises and set appropriate criteria for a land lease for each of the classifications. This criteria will permit useful resourse management and an early objective screening of the various applications that are made.

Under the present system an application for an agricultural land lease is normally recommended for approval by agriculture representatives if the soil resources are suitable for the agriculture purpose stated on the application, and no other criteria are considered. The application goes to other departments and a central Crown Lands Committee, and finally the minister, who either approves or 11600 - '

June 10, 1977 Tape 4123 EC - 3 MR. MAYNAIU>: rejects the application. Now some qualifying criteria will be established to assist applicants and the agriculture representatives to Illake judgement in the first instance. If this proves successful, the next step will be to refine the criteria so that recommendations can be made directly from the department's regional office, and that will bring service closer to the people. Many Crown lands applications have been received for home. gardening, but up to this time no policy existed. 1.1.601.

June 10, 1977 Tape 4124 Mr. Maynard: The value of producing fresh food for the family is recognized and consquently the new policy provides for this. Our garden allotment programme in larger urban centres of the Province has exemplified the need for this type of policy. Pressures for the wise use of soil resources are increasing because of higher food production costs, loss of productive farm land to other uses and a restrictive amount of PK - 1 suitable land remaining.

Therefore, government must ensure the proper use of the remaining Crown land suitable for agriculture if the Province is to have the opportunity of producing a significant portion of its food requirements. The classification of agriculture enterprises in the new policy includes (

a) the full time commerical farm, (

b) the part time farm, and (

c) the home garden. First the commerical farm. A commerical farm is one from which the owner derives the major portion of his income and spends the greatest portion of his working time and capital to develop. The land requirement will remain flexible so that it can be tailored to the specific requirements of the individual farm. Future connnerical farming development ~-Till be concentrated in designated areas identified through soil survevs as possessing the highest potential for profitable agriculture production.

General development areas have been identified and will be refined as soil surveying and land use planning projects progress. Land leases for commerical agriculture production will normally be located in these designated areas. And these leases ~vill meet the following criteria:

(1) The present land base owned by the applicant and suitable for agriculture is to be fully utilized at an acceptable level of productivity and management.

(2) The applicant must have the financial resources to develop the land or be eligible for financial assistance through loans and/or capital grants. In other words if an applicant gets a lease for 1.1602

June 10, 1977 Tape 4124 PK - 2 Mr. Maynard: a commerical farming operation he should have the financial resources to develop it successfully.

(3) A five year development plan must accompany the application. The type of farming enterprise in the proposal must bear a relationship to the amount of land needed for a viable operation.

(4) The proposed additional produce from the land must be capable of being transported economically to major markets or be absorbed by local markets.

(5) The land ap~lied for must have access to utility services.

(6) In the case of new entrants to agriculture the applicant must demonstrate an adequate agricultural knowledge and financial ability to develop the land resource within the five years.

(7) These leases will be short or long term, renelvab le, and the normal terms, conditions, and rentals for agriculture leases will apply. Next is the part time farm. A part time farm is one ~vhich operates E)n a part time basis only and does not supply the major portion of the family's income. Hobby farms are included in that classification. For part time farms the following criteria \vill apply: (1) the leases will normally be in areas designated as rural zones some may be permitted in the commerical agriculture zones to utilize small areas which are complimentary to a total land use plan.

(2) The present land base owned by the applicant and suitable for agriculture must be fully utilized in an acceptable manner. !3) Applications for this type of lease must be accompanied by a five year development plan.

(4) The land requirement will normally be in the range from two to twenty-five acres.

(5) No buildings will be allowed except small buildings for the purpose of storing implements, fertilizer, and other farming supplies. The applicant may ask to have this condition reviewed after five years. 1.1603

June 10, 1977 Tape 4124 PK- 3

(6) This type of lease· .. will be short term, (fifteen years), renewable and ttormal terms, conditions will again apply. The third one is the home gardening. Now home gardening means simply the supplying of the needs of the home only and therefore does not require a large amount of lBnd or capital i11vestment. the need. There are several possibilities aVailable to fulfill

(1) The present system for leasing residential lots in rural areas provides for lots of one-half acre. In most cases this amount of land is sufficient for groWing produce for the fainily.

(2) For families with residence located on small lots with no adequate soil resources, areas for garden plots may be leased to municipal governments, horticultural societies, or similar registered groups who wish to sponsor home gardening areas. 1.1604

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4125 Page 1 - ms Mr. Maynard. to sponsor home gardening areas. The department will issue the leases and make subsequent inspections to see that the terms and conditions are being fulfilled. The municipality or society to which the land is leased will be responsible for the administration and renting of the grarden plots to the individual families. The leases to the councils or societies will be mornally for fifteen years with the normal terms and conditions applying. These leases will not normally be in designated agricultural zones.

The third option for home gardening is where there is no sponsoring group available, permission may be given to an applicant to occupy Crown land for the purpose of home gardeni~g. In this case the applicant must demonstrate that he has no land base for home gardening available to h±m. A permit to occupy Crown land will be for three years only and, therefore, it does not have the permanency associated with land leases. For instance, if the natural resource is required for a more permanent enterprise then the permit to occupy will not be renewed. In

summary, I have outlined the basis of a new land leasing policy for agriculture. It should not be considered final as experience will show where more refinements can be made. However, I submit, that the policy will more effectively and efficiently utilize our soil resources for the various demands of the agriculture sector. PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I table the annual report of the Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation, NIDC. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: - Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Refinery Agreement Act, 1973." It does not have anything to do with the present refinery. 'That is the agreement for the so~called second refinery which never materialized. 11605

June 10, 1977:· Tape no. 4125 Page 2 - ms MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of }~npower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Shop Closing Act," MR. NEARY: You are going to close down the shops. You got evervthin2 else closed down. - - MR. SPEAF.ER: The bon. House Leader. MR.. HICKMAN: I am being harassed. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. HICKMAN: That is right, it is. That must have been a tremendous party the hon. Leader of the Opposition had on Wednesday. His colleagues have not gotten over it yet. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

HICKMAN: I would hope, Mr. Speaker, and I say this without prejudice, that this is the end of legislation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no! MR.. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Preparation And Revision Of The Statutes And Subordinate Legislation Of The Province." And on behalf .of my colleague, the hon. Minister of Fisheries, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing And Coastal Vessels Rebuilding And Repairs ( Bounties) Act." ORAL QUESTIONS: MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Finance in his capacity as the minister responsible for the negotiations with the Waterford Hospital or the workers at the Waterford Hospital, I should sav, can the minister bring us up to date on what is happening? I gather from news reports there was another 'incident' overnight on the picket lines. Apparently six of the picketers were arrested. I am not sure whether charges were laid or if so what those charges were. Could the minister bring us up to date-piease, Mr. Speaker, and tell us what has happened?

And could he also perhaps indicate if he has any idea of where we go from here? The union, of course, have rejected the 1.1606

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4125 Page 3 - ms Mr. Roberts. mediato-rs -report. The govemmetl,t have accepted it as the minister told u.s last week. Where do we go from here? Do we just have to sit back now and wait for things to deteriorate further? To what end I do not ·know. Can the minister tell us 11607

June 10, 1977 Tape 4126 (Morning) Mr. Roberts: to what end I do not know, Can the minister tell us, you know, 1vhat has happened and where he sees we are going from here. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I think the first part of the hon. gentleman's question was directed at an incidence on the picket line last night. My understanding of the event 'i>ras that as the shifts ~·7ere chaning or some workers were trying to gain entrance PK - 1 to the building and they were obstructed by the pickets, I understand that six people were arrested.

I think four have been charged with obstructing the movement of the people into the hospital, and two ~..rere charged ~..ri th obstructing the police. As to the current status of the negotiations with the union. \~e have been in touch or at least the officials of the bargaining team on both sides were in contact yesterday. The union came in \vith some further proposals, in effect their past position that they offered us on the pensions, that is to say all those people who were on strike, and as of that date in 1977 should be pensionable. That was, you know, unacceptable to management at that time.

It was not recommended by the mediator and it would hardly be appropriate for management to accept it now. And I think that this has been indicated to the union in that they have gone back to give it some further thought and hopefully they will back to us again with some further suggestions.

As I have said and indicated on behalf of government to the House and to the public that the mediator's report although far from satisfactory to government, particularly in terms of the step progression and in terms of other benefits that he has suggested which ~·7e'!'e not made available to the other hospitals in the previous packages that have been negotiated were accepted by government, and by management very reluctantly because of the precedent setting nature of them, but in the interest of getting the strike settled.

But since they were all rejected in toto by the union at that time, you know, we felt that is as far as we could go at that particular :11608

June 10, 1977 Tape 4126 (1orning) PK - 3 ~ Doody: that report could very well have been the grounds for a settle .ment. As I say the legislation does not seem like a reasonable solution at this point. There is no natiOnal or provincial emergency, the hospital is functioning, and patient care as I have been informed by the health authorities is adequate. The patients in there are being looked after. The security in there is in good shape, the police. The number of constabulary have been reduced from the thirteen 1.1.610

June 10, 1977 Tape ~o. 4127 NH - 1 ~~R. DOODY: per shift to nine per shift, plus the sergeant and so at this point in time there is a hiatus and you know we would hope that the tmit ~vill get back to us again with some further ideas as to how to resolve it. Certainly all the concessions that have been made to date have been made by government and I think that in the interest of collective bargaining and in the interest of getting that particular strike finished it would be - you know the union should certainly make a gesture to getting the thing resolved. The hon. member for LaPoile. PR. NE..A.RY : f· ~r.

Speaker, the hon. }finister of Transportation and Communications, Sir, has been very quiet about the meetings over in Nova Scotia I think it was the other day in connection with the cost sharing project for upgrading the Trans Canada Highway, is the minister in a position now to tell the Rouse whether it is TJ.inety - ten, seventy-fbTe - tvrenty-five, or fifty - fifty. Give us the results of the meeting with the other ministers in the Atlantic Provinces. 'fr.

Speaker, first of all last \'!ednesday of last ,.,:reek all the ministers responsible for highways and transportation in the four Atlantic Provinces met in Halifax and we discussed the announce ment by ~ · rr. Laing and at that tir.J.e ·.1e \·Jere informec by the feC.eral minister that the $100 million was now allocated in the form of a grant really from Cltta•,ra to the region and the provinces would now have to deciC.e among theJT!selves how to divic'!e up the $100 million. That was last week's meeting.

Of course that automatically warranted a second meeting which ':vas held Pednesday of this week in Frederickton and I must say there was very intense discussion on the matter because \vhen the feC.eral government said to us, r:l-~ere is $100 million, nm.r you decide among yourselves and reach a.n agreement. How are you going to divide the money up7 And that is how it was done. - -- ·- - - - 1~"!L NE..o\RY: E~ch one just like a vulture. Mt! ~10RGAN : so, Hr. Speaker, I am pleased to at least have reached an agree ment. The agreement is now being finalized as of Hednesday 11611.

June 10, 1977 Tape ~lo. 4127 m~- 2 ~· ·!B. }~ORGAN: evening of this "t-Ieek and our Province's share of the $100 million will be $30 million. Prince Edward Island \vi.ll be now only $7 million and ~ova Scotia $32 million and New Brunswick $31 million. The han. Le~der of the Opposition said it was earlier agreed upon. There \vas no agreement reached until T-lednesday of this \ITeek. He thought as ministers _in the region that tha federal government vmuld show leadership and indicate ho~v they felt that it should be divided but instead of doing that they passed it along to the provinces and said that - AN HON.

ME~~ER: (Inaudible). ~. I~ORGAN: ~fr. Speaker, if the question could be answered in a - ~~- - sn~foNs: 1~. . ~~ORGAN : 1-T.. S n~~NS : If it could because - The hon. gentleman did not ask a question. I v.•as listening, I was trying but the gertleman Mr. Speaker, so the provinces, by some very meaningful discussion and negotiation among the ministers concerned reached agreement and of course now we hav asked the federal minister to meet with us as soon as possible to finalize the agreement, to sign in with Ottawa each respective province so we can get the tenders called and the actual work moving.

I was hoping this morning to be able to say that the federal minister has confirmed the meeting.

Hm-1ever, yesterday a meeting was really set up for Ottawa on Honday and however late last evening we got ~11ord that that meeting is nO'I'v being post­ poned so \ve now have not got a definite date for a ~eeting in Ottawa with the federal minister but we are hoping it will be the early part of next ~veek, at least next oy.1eek so as we can get the agreement signed with Ottawa and we have taken a position as well, not only dividing up the money in the region, that has been reached, an agreement there among the provinces, but also we have reached an agreement as to how we are going to put forward our position to Ottawa with regards to the cost sharing formula.

But of course before we meet with Ottawa' and put forward that position I cannot make it public. MR. NEARY: l~r. Speaker, a supplementary question. :11612

June 10, 1977 Tape No. 4127 N1 · ~- 3 !T.. SPE_~R: A supplementary. MR. NEAFY: Do I understand the minister correctly, Sir, that the Government of Canada tossed $100 million at tre four Atlantic Provinces like you would toss a bone to a dog, and then a vicious fight started over it. 1-1P.. DOODY: HR. NEARY: But the minister also said that it was a grant. Now does this mean that there is no cost sharing involved, that it is an outright grants, in other words a gift to the Atlantic Provinces, is that what the minister means? MP.. }'ORG.t\N : Hell, Mr.

Speaker, the federal government have been looking at it as a grant as far as they are concerned because the money has been approved by the Treasury Board and by Federal Cabinet. :MP.. NE)...PY : But are there any strings attached to it? !-T.. YORGA.lll' : Hhat they are saying to the Province is you have to now reach agreement with us with regards to cost sharing. ifuat _they say in ·cost sharing is t.rhat each Province is going to add on to the $1~0 ~lion and they do want the Provinces to cost share the necessary work to be carried out in upgrading the TCH in the Atlantic region, or the pril!lary highway system.

So therefore ~ve have to reach an agreement with the federal minister along these lines. But the $100 million has been approved by the Federal Cabinet and therefore ~ve have nmv to sit down and negotiate with them an agreement indicating the formula of cost sharing the provinces will be involved as well and carry out the necessary work. But the provinces, as I said early in the House of Assembly, the submission made or the 11613

June 10, 1977, Tape 4128, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: the provinces. I said earlier in the House of Assembly,the application made for this money in the beginning was along the lines of 90 per cent - 10 per cent cost-sharing formula. Before I indicate what decision we made or reached among the four provinces with regard to our upcoming meeting with Mr. Lang next week - I cannot very we11 indicate publicly what that position is until we meet Mr. Lang. MR.NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (COLLINS): A considerable number of members have indicated they wish to ask questions so I will permit one further supplementary at this time,without prejudice, and we will have later supplementaries if time permits. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this seems to be a most irregular procedure that the Government of Canada are using, and it is delaying the calling of public tenders and the awarding of the contracts. We are now almost half way through the season and not a tender has been called or a contract awarded.

If there are any further delays would the minister indicate what damage it is going to do to getting the work done that needs to be done on the Trans-Canada Highway this year? Is it going to put us behind schedule? And we still have no guarantee whether it is going to 90/10, 75/25 or 50/50. If it is not 90/10, will there be any work done at all this year? MR. SPEAKER: and Communications. MR. MORGAN: The han. the Minister of Transportation Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman in essence is right in what he is saying.

Any further delay in finalizing an agreement will, of course, automatically delay the work being carried out on our highway in our Province, the T.C.H. That is the reason why we have stressed to the federal minister in our correspondence - ~1614

June 10, 1977, Tape 4123, Page 2 -- apb MR. MORGAN: and when I say us, the ministers in the region - that we feel it almost of an urgent nature to meet as soon as possible with the federal minister and to finalize the agreements so that we can get the tenders called. If Mr. Lang and the federal government cannot reach agreements with us the Provinces - and when I say us now, we are looking at one position - if they cannot agree with us as a region and get the agreement signed, it will mean del.ay in getting the work done and this will be very unfortunate. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SH1MONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. It relates to the statement he made last night that the reason for the problems with Ralland Forest Products mill in Milltown was a lack of good management. A N H 0 N • t~ E M B E R : . Y e s . MR. SIMMONS: Unfortunately he said that, Mr. Speaker, even if it were true, but I will debate that with him at the appropriate time.

What I want to know now is, in view of the minister's publicly stated view that poor management is the problem, and as he said later, the major problem in his view with the mill operation at Milltown, does this mean that his department will refuse to further give assistance to the mill while it is under present management? t1R. SPEAKER: and Agriculture. M R • r~ A Y N A R D : The hon. the Minister of Forestry Mr. Speaker, let me first say that I made the statement last night, and it is my view that that is the major problem. I will not back down on that statement. I will stick - by it and I can demonstrate it.

However, as to the question as to whether we will give any further assistance, obviously the hon. member is not 11.615

June 10, 1977, Tape 4128, Page 3 -- apb MR. MAYNARD: asking me whether our department is giving any further financial assistance to that business? But we are, and we will continue to give assistance to supply or to find a supply of wood for the mill. We have demonstrated at this time that there is sufficient wood for another year and we have good options to supply wood for a number of years to come. I cannot guarantee anyone that there is going to be a fifteen or twenty year supply but there is wood in the area that is available. The harvesting techniques have to be straightened out.

The wood that is there has to be utilized to the maximum possible extent. But yes, we will work. We have a team of people who are working on the Bay d'Espoir area and we will continue to do so to keep the Ralland Forest Products operation in operation. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! ~16~6

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4129 Page 1 - ms MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for the information. I am not sure he addressed himself to the question so I will put it another way. Has the minister in view of his stated concern, which he says he can document, has he advised the ownership of the mill of his views concerning poor management particularly has he advised them of the necessity ~ in his view the necessity obviously - to change management in the interest of continued operation of the mill? MR. MAYNARD: We have told the management and expressed to them, Mr.

Speaker, that under the present harvesting techniques - and we talk about the extent of the operation, the skidder operation only as opposed to a skidder, plus mixed type of harvesting operation - that there is just not sufficient woo4 in the whole central Newfoundland area to keep the mill going based on a large skidder operation, whether you take Bowaters wood, Price or whatever. But with revised harvesting techniques and the production of some pulpwood that the wood can be found to keep the mill viable.

And we will find the wood, and we will continue to assist the people in every way possible to keep their operations viable if they desire to keep on operating. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN : Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications if he wishes to get back to his seat. We have a crisis situation in Cartwright on two accounts, but on the first one, Could the minister indicate whether he is prepared to approach CN on the Ambrose Shea which is now on the Lewisporte to Goose Bay run, it will not be calling into St.

John's, it will be the Lewisporte to Goose Bay run , and apparently will not be calling into the community of Cartwright which means that the community is without any passenger service whatsoever? The Petite Forte and the Tavener are generally choc-a-block, filled up by the time they reach Cartwright on both runs so with the result the Ambrose Shea will not be calling into Cartwright, and the people who have booked to go on to there cannot move nor can the community travel by vessel on :11617 '.

June 10~ 1977 Mr. Strachan. Tape no. 4129 Page 2 - ms to Goose Bay or to ports on the Island. So could he state whether he is prepared to look into that situation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker~ yes, I will look into it, but I understand from CN's announcements that the Ambrose Shea is on a temporary measure of approximately two weeks, and then they intend to put the, I think, Marine Cruiser on that service. Now I do not know if that is possible - maybe there is a problem with the landing facilities with regard to the Ambrose Shea.

What I will do is that I will make contact today with the CN Marine officials to determine what the situation is and what can be done. But I know from the recent announcements that the Ambrose Shea is only temporary for approximately two weeks and then the Marine Cruiser goes into service. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MORGAN: MR.. STRACHAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STRACHAN: Because of the ice conditions. Because of the ice conditions~ yes. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. One supplementary.

I should indicate that the Marine Cruiser will be a smaller vessel and will be making two trips a week, and because two trips a week is also discussed - whether it will go into Cartwright as well. So possibly you could take note of that. Again on the community of Cartwright, I wonder if the minister - and again it is not supplementary to the CN question, but to the community of Cartwright, because there is controversy, and they have been calling on national radio - could indicate the road situation in the community of Cartwright as well? MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, in that regard the telegrams that came in recently, both to myself and my colleague the Minister of Municipal Affairs regarding the bad road conditions on roads under the jlurisdlct{ori -ofthe municipality of Cartwright, realizing that Cartwright does have some financial difficulties in finding necessary funds to carry out the necessary improvements, what I have :11618 - - .

June 10. 1977 Tape no. 4129 Page 3 - ms Mr. Morgan. done as minister responsible for roads, in co-ordination with my colleague, the Minister of Municipal Affairs, I have arranged to have engineers go into Cartwright this week or the early part of next week.

They will be going in and associated with the construction of the Cartwright airstrip to determine an estimate of cost to carry out the necessarv improvements on the roads and when a report comes in I will again be meeting with my colleague~ the Minister of Municipal Affairs in the hope that we can arrange some kind of a cost-sharing situation between the two departments and get the work done this Summer. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Energy. I would presume that that is the appropriate minister.

Would the minister confirm the overnight stories in the Daily News that the government subsidized ERCO by $7 million last year in electrical rates? Is that a factual figure? Did it actually cost $7 million to subsidize that operation? ~1619

June 10, 1977 Tape 4130 EC - 1 MR.. PECKFORD: The exact figure, Mr. Speaker, I am getting checked out but it _is approximately $7 million which is an agreement signed by the previous administration with the present company who operates the industry. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Yes, go ahead. Mr. Speaker, -are there any negotiations going on in any shape or form that will increase the price of electricity per kilowatt to ERCO so as to cut into that subsidy? MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, myself and the hen.

Hinister of Industrial Development have been working on this problem for a number of months and I am sure he would also have something to say about it right now. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: I will just add to that to give the member a more definitive answer, there is a committee which has been struck to look into the ERCO situation not to force anybody's hand but to look at the whole contract of trust deeds, the existing agreements, and to give some direction to Cabinet on the procedures if procedures can be established to renegotiate.

That committee is a multi-department committee and we should have a report some· time later in the summer. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. One final supplementary. I wonder if the minister would care - It is not a case of forcing anybody's hand, Mr. Speaker. The $7 million subsidy is getting into the area where It is going to start to be question­ able whether the Province can afford that kind of a subsidy - AN HON • ME}ffiER: Right. MR.

FLIGHT: - and I am wondering if the minister would care to tell the House as to what ERCO's or the people representing ERCO's attitude is with accepting that kind of an increase, or an increase that would do away with that side of the subsidy. 11620

·~ June 10, 1977 Tape 4130 EC - 2 MR. LUNDRIG.AJ.'l: Hr. Speaker, on several occasions in the last year we h~ve had informal discussions with the principals of ERCO and we have indicated to them our concern about the power contract - naturally we are concerned. Naturally it is unacceptable to us and we have made our general feelings known, and I believe that at a given point in time the principals would be satisfied to discuss with government the future of that entire agreement. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) The hen. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

Is it the intention of government to take over the distribu­ tion of beer in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Finance. 'tvould the minister agree, confirm or deny that a study has been carried out, you know, with the view to having government take over the distribution of beer from the breweries, has the study been carried out, and is that study complete? MR. DOODY: The study has been carried out on the distribution of beer in the Province to check the efficiencies, the costs. and the whole structure.

It was never the intention of government to get involved in the distribution of beer and that was not the object of the study. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member may come back for a supplementary if time permits. The hon. member for Terra Nova. }~. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy. I wonder if the minister is in a position to inform the House just what is the status with respect to legislation that would bring Newfoundland Hydro under the control of the Public Utilities Board. 1.1.621.

June 10, 1977 Tape 4130 EC - 3 MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I wish the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) would check with his colleagues when he comes into the House each day because this morning on a point of privilege I indicated to the House just exactly what the status of that was. So I would like to ask and request of the han. member for Terra Nova that he consult with these other han. members on the opposite side for the information that was given this morning in this han. House. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay followed by the hon. member for St. George's. }ffi.

RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the ~1inister of Healch. In view of the fact that the minister's colleague, the Government House Leader, indicated earlier this morning that he appeared to be at the end of the legislation to be introduced this session, could the minister tell us what is happening with regards to the proposed denturist legislation that I do believe commitments were given some months ago that that would be brought before the House this session? MR. COLLINS: ~~. Speaker, meetings are continuing with the Denturist Society.

I had a meeting with their legal counsel and the President and two or three members last week. There are also meetings continuing with the Dentists' Association and the Medical Association, because we are dealing in an oral health problem and of course those associations must be brought in. Whether we will be able to get the legislation in this session remains to be seen - I am still hopeful, but as the days go by it concerns me that they might not be able to make it. MR. RIDEOUT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary. One supplementary.

Could the minister tell us then whether or not - and from his answer maybe not - but could the minister tell us for sure whether or not legislation has been drafted to this effect or is it still that there are meetings going on and the legislation has yet to be drafted? 1.1622

·.J June 10, 1977 Tape 4131-~Ioming AH-1 :t<IR.. RIDEOUT: and the legislation has yet to be drafted. HR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, over the past year there has been several drafts put on paper ~ut they are only drafts for discussion purposes. There has been no draft in terms of legislation lvhich ~>7ould be proposed to be brought to the House. It has been draft positions fer discussion purposes. MR. SPEAKER: Ron member for St. George's. MRS MaciSAAC: Mr. Speaker, my question for the Minister of Social Services.

I wonder if the minister would tell us the number of children available for adoption now in the Province and the number of people lo7ho are waiting for adoption? HR. BRETT: ~o, ~!r. Speaker, I do not have that kind of information. That is statistical stuff that I would not necessarily have with me.

I can tell the hon member though that there are a very small number of children available now and the number of applications are growning to the point where we find that l-7e may have to refuse accepting applications for short periods. :Secause what is happening is that ~ve are getting applications, our workers are processing applications knowing that there are no children available . so r.-1e are creating a lot of work for nothing really. So we are looking into the possibilitv of delaying ap~lications for periods and then as children become available then accept them again. I do not know the exact number. HR.

ROBERTS: Are there a number of children in care who are not available for adoption? MR. BRETT: Yes there are always a number of children ~vho are not available and there are also a number of children available ~.rhom lve find difficult to place. And I have said this many times, I think children with minor physical or minor mental defects that people l-1ill not adopt - most adopting applicants prefer the blond blue-eyed child, sometimes children that they think look like themselves, so children with defects we find hard to place. And then of course 1.1623

June 10,1977 Ta~e 4131 - Morning AR-2 MR. BRETT: ~~e have AN P.ON NEJ-fBER : Like the minister. MR. BRETT: Yes,like me. And then we have cases where we have a brother and a sister probably in a foster home and we would not separate them. If somebody would take the two of them we would go along with the adoption but we would not separate the family. So I do not have the exact figures.If the hon member wants them I can get them at a later date. But it is not something that you would normally carry with you. MRS MaciSAAC: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Or(e sul)nlementary.

MRS ~aciSAAC: Hy supplementary, Mr. Speaker, ~.rould be for the Minister of Health if that is in order. You know on the same subject. :1:-IR. SPEAKER: If it rises out of the minister's question. MRS Hac ISAAC: I wonder if the Minister of Health could tell me how many children were born in the Province last year? Also I would like to know how many children were born in the Province last year - Is that a good question? HR. FLIGIIT: Of course it is a good question. MRS MaciSAAC: Also the number of abortions performed in the Province last year? . HR. FLIGHT: Yes, that is a good question • MR..

SPEAKER: Han Minister of Health. 1.~-fR. COLLINS ; Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon member would not expect me to carry that sort of information around in my head hut I will certainly undertake to get the information. HR. SPEAKER: Ron Leader of the Opl)osition. }ffi.. ROBERTS : A question for the Minister of Transportation and Conununications arising out of an ezperience I had this 1-1eek on driving over ~vhat is undoubtedly the worst public road in this Province. I thought I had been over them all and that I have seen some 1.1.624

June 10,1977 Tape 4131-Morning k'1 HON HEMBER: ~fuat one is that? The Trans Canada. MR. ROBERTS: No, the Trans Canada is the largest worse public road but this is the road, the Creque which is not a road. It is an astonishing experience and I had the experience of driving over it somethin~ Hhich I Hould recommend to the minister on one of his personal ministerial official visits. Could the minister tell us ~·7hether he is going to take any steps this year to improve the road to Croque. Croque is a community of several hundred people wnich depends upon the road. The road is not even wide enough for a car.

It twists and turns like a piece of spaghetti that has been over boiled, and it is a manace in every way. There have been a couple of bad accidents but fortunately there have been no fatal accidents as yet. But I fear we are asking for that sort of difficulty. Would the minister tell us if he would be prepared to have some work done on that road this year. I am told that $50,000-and this figure comes from his officials, but $50,000 would make significant i~rovements. Can he assure us that the work accordingly will be done? HR. SPEAKER: The hon minister. HR. MORGAN: The answer is no, Mr. Speaker. 11625 - ,

June 10, 1977 T3pe 4132 (Horning) ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, the han. Minister of Education to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act". (Bill No. 103) On motion. Bill No. 103, read a first time ordered . , read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Companies Act." (Bill No. 112). On motion Bill No. 112, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. Minister of Justice to infroduce a PK - 1 bill, "An Act To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act". (Bill No. 113).

On motion Bill No. 113, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. RICKMAN: Bill No. 39, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Rural DeveloPment Act, 1973. 11 MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Rural Development Act, 1973." The hon. member for Baie Verte-Hhite Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I began last night te have a few words to say on this particular amendment, and my colleague said then and I say now once again that I believe that this is a very dangerous amendment.

I believe that the Minister of Rural Development is asking for an unusual and unnecessary grant of power from this House to have vested in himself the ultimate authority and the ultimate decision when it comes to loans made under the Rural Development Authority Act. I do not believe it is necessary. At least when the Lieutenant- Governor in Council had to give their approval to this, vou could believe there m1uld be a sobering second thought by somebody. There would be fifteen or sixteen other ministers sitting around the table.

You would at least like to believe that some of them ~vill probably question and scrutinize some of the applications that the minister was recognixing for approval. Now, Mr. Speaker, those fifteen or sixteen other probing minds and men have now disappeared or will 1.1.626

June 10, 1977 Tape 4132 (Morning) PK - 2 Mr. Rideout: disappear under this particular Act, under this legislation. I think that is wrong. The minister will sit down now on the approval or with or without the approval of his Rural Development Authority and he is going to pass out loans. He is going to pass out grants, he is going to ?ass out public money. And, Mr. Speaker, the thing that hits the heart is that this Legislature cannot even find out what that money is spent for. There was no list ever tabled in this House.

The great debate went on last year, and I assumP- the years before asking for the Rural Development Authority list, but it has never been tabled in this House, or it was tabled once, excuse me, but the present minister refuses to even consider tabling it. And yet now the minister wants to make the shelter a little tighter around this God-given in power he has got down in his department. MR. ROBERTS: After we see what they are doing in Public Works maybe they are doing the same thing here. MR. RIDEOUT: The minister wants to seal it a little tighter down there, Mr.

Speaker, he wants to make the Rural Development Authority a little bit more removed from the scurtiny of anybody by now putting it directly and absolutely answerable to nobody only himself. Well I say, Mr. Speaker, that this House, this Opposition is not about to grant that type of authority to this minister or any other minister. 1.1627

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4133 Page 1 - ms Mr. Rideout. I think it is an abuse for the minister to even consider coming in and asking this House to give him that type of power. It will leave the Rural Development Authority wide open to abuse by anything or , anybody. I am not suggesting that the minister would be party to that, but there will be nobody else to have a look at it. _At-le3st when it had to go before the Lieutenant-Governor in Council fifteen or sixteen other people could question it. That will now be put down the drain, thrown out the window as not necessary by this particular amendment. Mr.

Speaker, it is a very dangerous amendment. I hope that some of the more conscious bound members on the other side of the House will stand up and speak on this amendment. I am sure that the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) would not like to see this go through. He seems to be conscientious and objects to anything of that nature. I would hope he would stand in his place today and do it with this particular amendment, Because, Mr. Speaker, it is dangerous beyond words. The Rural Development Authority and with this particular amendment added on to it only goes further, Mr.

Speaker, to erode the authority of this House. We have no say and cannot find any evidence of what is happening with the Rural Development Authority. We cannot get a list of grants or loans approved or disapproved. Like I told the House last night, Mr. Speaker, we find it out by accident. If there happened to be a Rural Development loan approved in your district, yo~ would find it out by accident.!£ you happened to go in the woods and run across an operator operating a mill. And he may say, Well, I got a loan the other day, or I got a grant a couple of months ago. Nobody knows what is going on down there.

And to make the empire a little tighter nobody in the Cabinet is going to know what is going on down there. Now, Mr. Speaker, I say that that is an abuse of power. It is an abuse, an affront, for the minister to come before this House and ask for that type of power. Now there were all kinds of justifications made last night. The Minister of Municipal Affairs 1.1628 - I

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4133 Page 2 - ms Mr. Rideout. said, Oh, you do not table the names of people who seek social assistance. But, Mr. Speaker, let me tell the minister that if anybody is seeking help from the Department of Social Services above a certain ceiling it has to go to the Cabinet to be approved, building materials and that type of thing. MR. ROBERTS: And there are rules that govern who may get social assistance. There are no rules that govern Rural Development loans. MR. RIDEOUT: Exactly • And it will have to go to Cabinet.

The minister will have to sit in approval or disapproval of the requests brought in on behalf of that recipient by his colleague, the Minister of Social Services. Now that is going to disappear in this bill. And,of course, as my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, there are rules and guidelines attached to the social service situation. There is nothing to this. When the minister gets this ultimate authority, if he ever gets it, he could disapprove an application because he does not like the colour of your eyes. That is about what it will boil down to, Mr.

Speaker, and the little dilly situations that we saw out around Botwood last year where the little political dart can be waved around under somebodv's nose, will become more so. And I will say that, Mr. Speaker, if there is one piece of legislatiqn on this Order Paper todav that we should dig in our toes and fight for is this particular amendment to the Rural Development Authority. There is no way it should be allowed to pass this House. The minister should take it off the Order Paper. I suggest that he should be ashamed for bringing it in. And the Rural Develooment Authority, Mr.

Speaker, is so controversial by its verv nature and by the activity or lack thereof that it has been involved in, it is so controversial you would think that the minister for his own protection would want to at least consult his colleagues in Cabinet. But no, not this minister. Mr. Speaker, there will be more than one ski-doo trail cut ~n Grand Falls if this is approved, and when the unemployment rates down around the rural parts of the Province are so high. Mr. Speaker, I cannot ~1629

June 10, 1977 Tape no. ·~ 133 Page 3 - ms Mr. Rideout. in conscience give my support to this amendment. The only thing I can do is fight it to the end under the rules, and I can assure Your Honour and the minister that we on this side are prepared to do that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear; MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a number of my colleagues have spoken with respect to this bill; Bill No. 39, and they have made some arguments that were both eloquent and forceful, and I do not propose to add to those arguments, because I do not think there is a great deal more that can be said, but I would like to say a few words about this bill, and about the principle which it sponsors or which it espouses, because I believe, Sir, that this particular bill, the Act To Amend The Department Of Rural Development Act is not only offensive, I think it is indicative of a deliberate trend on the part of this administration 1.1630

June 10, 1977 Tape No. 4134 ~ - 1 ~T_. ROBERTS: on the part of this administration. ~ow, Sir, the bill itself is a very inocuous looking piece of legislation. But it is like a lot of inocuous looking legislation, it is like a lot of things tvhich look inocuous, it is a very, very dangerous piece of legislation, a posslble potential statute law. It is a little like a little dog or a little cat, Sir, which seems to be a very pleasant little animal until it bites you and it turns out it is hydrophobic and it turns out then that the resulting disease is poison. Hr.

Speaker, I think we should begin, Sir, with a quorum call. T~-10, four, five, six, seven, eight members in this House, the rules say there must be fourteen, Sir. ~~-. SPEAKEP._: I will ask the Clerk to count the House. He have a quorum. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. }~_. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would hope ~.re ~qill continue to have fourteen government members present throughout the morning or if not there will probably be more quorum calls. v]e are debating government legislation, Sir.

We are debating legislation that is of importance becau~e if carried this bill will confer upon the ~inister a power which potentially could be abused. I do not know ~-1hether the present minister would abuse it. I do not think he would. But we have no guarantee that the present minister will be minister for any length of time. His suceessor may or may not be as dedicated to the public interest as is the gentleman from Grand Falls. The point I was making, Sir, is that this bill seems to be an inocuous one.

The minister again is sufficiently interested in the debates of the Eouse of Assembly that a piece of legislation that he is sponsoring he cannot even stand around and listen to the debate. That shows the contempt in which the minister holds the House. So the bill is inocuous but it contains in it a very real and a very dangerous harn.ful principle. All the bill does,

June 10, 1977 Tape No. 4135 NM- 1 1-'P_. ROBERTS : Sir, is strike out the words, "Lieutenant- Governor in Council". The effect of it, as I understand it, 'l".rould be to allow the minister himself to lend public money without getting any approval or any sanction, either prior sanction or retroactive sanction from the Cabinet.

So l:-hat the minister is asking is the authority, the power, to lend public money on security which he determines to be adequate for purposes which he determines to be adequate to people whom he considers to be adequate and •.o1ithout any accounting to the Cabinet, Sir, or to the House of Assembly. Now, lfr. Speaker, there is nothing I subnit, that could be more offensive to the whole principle of parliamentary government than this particular bill. It is a bureaucrat's dream.

It is a dream of the ideal of the kind of public servant, tmfortunately we do not have too many of these but we have some, the kind of public servants ~Jho regard the whole process of the House of Assembly and even the Cabinet as just a nuisance. It gets in the way of efficient administration. ~·lell why do we have to go up to Cabinet ~.n.th that? Hhy do 'l"ve have to get those politicans involved? Let us get on with '~ the job down here in the Public Service. They do not ansYTer to anybody.

All they rNant is money, money to spend and they want us to raise the taxes and they want then the public servants to go ahead and be able to spend it 'l"vithout any approval or any consultation or any check at all. Hell, Sir, if ever this House of Assembly shoulc1. oppose a bill it should oppose this bill. If ever a bill should be withdraw by a government it is this Particular bill. It is offensive, Sir, in every uay it can be. It is wrong in principle. Let us leek at the PDA. It Has a good idea. It was like a lot of ideas which the hon. gentlemen opposite had when they were a newly formed government.

It 'I"·Tas a great sounding idea. It was an idea that until it had been analyzed and tested appeared to have great promise. It has turned into 1.1632

June 10 , 1977 Tape , o. 4135 m - 2 ~m.. P.OBERTS: one of the great boondoggles of all time. I could cite twenty or thirty or forty instances from my personal knowledge where the Rural Development Authcrity has been perverted, where its loans have been used for low and partisan political purposes. I could cite just as many more where it has been used foolishly. The gentleman from Exploits (Dr. Twomey) and I knot-T of a case out in Leading Tickles in his cons tit.uency. I think ! read some details of it in an earlier debate in the Rouse and I believe the bon. gentleman from Exploits 11633

June 10, 1977 Tape 4136 (Morning) PK - 1 Mr. Roberts~· (Dr. Twomey) asked me for the details of the case because he was interested, and I gave him the details, and he will corroborate I am sure that that was the case where a loan of $10,000 or $15,000 of public money was made to a man 't-Tho ought not to have got that loan. He had no need for it, no justification for it, and no hope of paying it back.

All it did was put that man in trouble, it did not help him to break out of the social assistance jungle, it did not help him to become self-supporting, it did not help to Cl'eate ~.;rork, it simply put that man $10,000 or $15,000 in debt, and it ended up in a loss of $10,000 or $15,000 to the Province. The gentleman for Exploits I know will support ~rhat I say in that sense. I showed him the correspondence which I had. And that is an accurate description. And I say now to the gentleman for Exploits, ~fr.

Speaker, and to the House that there are many other cases, many other cases, a man in Phillips Head ~vho told me during the by-election campaign last year, he said, I always voted Liberal, I ~vas campaigning there with Mr. }1ulrooney, the gentleman who ran against the gentleman for Exploits - Mr. Mulrooney ~vas not elected, the gentleman for Exploits was. The gentleman for Exploits was not party to the sort of thing I am talking about now.

But the gentleman in Phillips Head said, or maybe it was Point of Bay, I could take the hon. gentleman to the House, it is a yellow painted house by the lefthand side of the road going out to Leading Tickles, going out the bay. The man said,"I have always voted Liberal, Sir." And I said, ''Jell that is fine. I hope you will give our man Mr. Mulrooney here with me, I hope you will give him a vote this time." "1Alel, Sir, I cannot~' "~Thy not",I said? "Well, he said, " I have applied now" He said, "I have got a heart condition, but I want a J-5, that is a kind of tractor.

And I have applied to the Rural Development Authority, and he said a minister, and he named the minister, was by here last day or two campaigning for the P.C.'s and he said, he made it clear to me that if I wanted to get my loan I would have to vote P. C. And I said, "Well that is 1.1634

June 10, 1977 Tape 4136 (Horning) ~1r. Roberts: foolishness,if you are entitled to a loan you will get the loan. Nobody knows how you vote anyway. Oh, he says, "They will know." I said, "That is foolishness, Sir". Nobody will know how you vote unless you tell anybody. It is your o~vn secret. Nobody can ever PK - 2 find out, the ballot is a sacred and a secret thing. He said, "Oh no they will know, Sir." I do not know how the man voted. It is his otm privilege how he votes. But examples such as that can be found all over this Province.

And, of course, that is the reason, that is the only reason why the list of borrowers under the Rural Development Authority is not made public. There is no need for any question or doubt about that. That is the reason the list of loans is not made public. That is the reason there is no registration. There is no access by the public to where public money has gone. Now that is the way the Rural Development Authority operates. It is made up of political appointments. I do not even know who the current members are. Who are the members of the RDA?

I am now even sure , there were three ministers and three private citizens who were known public supporters - ,A_l;I RON. MEMBER: What about the DREE men? HR. ROBERTS: There ~i7ere no DREE men on RDA. On RDA, Rural Development Authority? There were no DREE people on Rural Development Authority. I do not think they are. There were formerly three men on it whose chief qualification or chief recommendation, I am sure it was support of the party opposite. That is fine.

There is nothing wrong with It is a political body. the minister is now returned, could he tell us who us who were the members of the Rural Development Authority at present? vfuo are the present members of the Rural Development Authority? HR. LUNDRIGA.."t-l: The present members of the Board? MR. ROBERTS: The Board. The RDA is the corporate name of it. MR. LUNDRIGAN: The Minister of Fisheries, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, a representative from Harbour Grace, and there are 1.1635

June 10, 1977 Tape 4136 (Morning) PK - 3 Mr. Lundr:f,.gan: two vacancies at the moment. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Archibald from Harbour Grace. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Yes. MR.. ROBERTS: And Mr. Meades position is vacant. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Meacie's position is vacant and Mr. Pratt is vacant and these are being - MR. ROBERTS: How long have they being vacant? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Oh recently. Mr. Meade of course . is a little longer. I :11636

., -' June 10, 1977 Tape IJo. 4137 m~- 1 l::P.. ROBERTS: I thcnk the minister. That just underlines what I was saying that the board is made up of political people. The ministers are overtly and properly political. The other three gentlemen are estimable gentlemen but their main qualification of course was their political affiliation. So we have a board, ~r. Speaker, that is a political board. It is not a public service board. It is not made up of officials. It is a political board that lends money and they lend it in secret and refuse to account for it.

And now we want the minister coming and asking power to make those loans without even going to Cabinet. The next thing he will not even to go to himself, the next thing it ~.:rill just be anybody ~~o wanders in if he has a ticket from the PC Party, a script from the PC Party will be given the loan. That is what is coming with this rnA. And you kuow 1~e have seen this session, this administration, exposed as at least bunglers and possibly more when it comes to administration. There are no less than three judicial erquiries now underway and when I say judicial enquiries, enquiries carried out by judges.

They are not judicial proceedings as lawyers would use the term. They are not sub judice as -the }~inister of Public ~-larks is going to find out in his attempt to cover up, in his attempt to prevent officials ans~-Tering questions. They are not sub judice. Hhat 1-1e have are enquiries carried out under the Public Enquiries Act by a gentleman who happened to be Her ~ajesty's judges, impartial and superbly competent men. But in each case, Sir, and look at the pattern, these enquiries are being raised as E'. result of questions raised by members in the Opposition.

And in each case, Sir, serious matters in the administration of government are under :.nvestigation. ~ve have the television set enquiry. He have the enquiry of Judge CUI!IIIlings. Judge H. H. Cummings of the District Court is carrying out on the 1-lest Coast into the way in 1.:rhich land was acquired in the Bonne Bay Park. Ancl then we have the biggest enquiry to date, now there will be more, because the administration, Sir, their ineptitude, it is only bungling and it 1.1637

June 10, 1977 Tape No. 4137 :Nr - 2 !·~. RO:SERTS : may well now come to that. It may well be more than bungling. I suspect that ~·men v7e get to the bottom of this Public \•iorks thing, Sir, there is going to be more than some red faces. I suspect that. The pattern of events is such that one cannot come to any other conclusion. P~d in each case, Sir, the government are being investigated, publicly for their conduct. And here nmv ~·e have a minister coming in and demanding more power. Ee should be coming in and saying, "Here is what we have done. Here are the names. Eere are the purposes.

Ue have nothing to be ashamed of. 1·le are proud of it." DREE revealed names, - loans made by the Rural Development Department under the f...MA III agreement are revealed. ~q:.'" MJRPHY: They are not public information. YR. B.OBEP.TS: Yes. Yes. 1'!',. l1C"P.PITY: Does the han. Leader feel that everybody that does borrow a couple of thousand his name should be made public7 }f.R. ROBEP.TS: Yes. Yes.

I think it should be tabled here in the House, the same as the Loan and Guarantee Act is now before the House, an amendment to the Loan and Guarantee Act is now before the Rouse and it reveals, I do not know there are only ~vo or three companies there this year. l'!R.. DOODY : Two. I-!R.. ROBERTS : Two my friend the Minister of Finance tells me and I congratulate him because I know what pressure there is to get people in under that particular rubric of government. But it is brought here in the House. It has been done I guess as long as there have been loan and guarantee acts.

I a!!' not suggesting v7e need a bill every year for the FDA but the minister should be required to file a report. He did it one year, rrr. Ji!l'l :r'eid' 'to!aS then the minister before he had an unfortunate accident in the election and retired from public life, at least temporarily. I would think permanently. f..~d what happened? The only controversy, there 1.1638

&,· June 10, 1977 Tape ~o. 4137 NM - 3 MR. R03ERTS: was no controversy about individuals. It ,.ras mentioned that three people got loans ~vho happened to be PC candidates and there v1as some question and r:i' ghtly so. One of them, a gentleman I believe on Bell Island, got a loan for a bulldozer for Bell Island - AN ROl! • ~IE!'EER: '!'-'T... ROBERTS : The ~ockey player. The hockey player. You knm11, but there w·as no personal involvement. Similarly, l1r. Speaker, there Ha.s some considerable questions about such ~ural Development Authority loans as hairdressers, and ~orticians.

There was some question as to T.J'hether this was rural de"Velopment in the true sense of the 1;.7ord. But other agencies make it public. The Liquor Licencing Board each year publishes a list. It is made public here in this House. It is tabled showing the name of every licencee of a liquor establisr~ent in this Province. And I think that is a good thing tc ~ave. I am not sure that was always done but it is done now. Down in the Registry of Deeds and Companies every mortgage I will w·ager is registered.

It is not required to be so by law but in fact e"rery mortgage is now registered, but not the 'Rural Develop~ent Authority. It operates in secrecy. He do not know, Sir, whether - there is $1 million or $10 million in loans. l\.nd I would suggest to my friend from Lewisporte (Hr. 1>7hi te) who is on the Public Accounts Committee 1.1639 - -.

June 10,1977 MR. ROBERTS: Tape 4138 - Xorning AH-1 Public !'.ccounts Committee that a very fertile subject for the kind of hard hitting investigation •. Cince they finish with Puhlic l<lorks and the Fisheries pepartment where ~ve have a scandal we have not even begun to get into yet for which the Minister of Health is politically responsible. He was the minister during the period of this scandal and that has not come out yet. So the record of this government is not such that they can come to this House and ask for a further grant of power.

Department after department it now stands exnosed that there are serious questions, so serious I do not know what the results of these enquiries will be. Commissioners will file their reports and they will be made nublic and then we will see. But the questions were so serious that enquiries under the Public Enquiry Act had to be set up. Consider it again, the land issue over in Bonne Bay. Forget the television set issue, that is immensely serious but it is not so much the administration the government accepts insofar as it is inextricably linked up by the presence of one gentleman, Hr. A.B.

Walsh to the scandals in the Public Works Department. And let me say now that the Minister of Public ~..J"orks is politically responsible but I do not think he in any way had any hand in whatever has gone on dmvn in that department. I think it was before he got to be got to be the minister and there is ministerial envolvement of course because these lists, these patronage lists are approved by the minister and that is why the minister ~1ill not let his officials give the answer. That is why - \vhat is the gentleman, Hr. White is it?

The inspector deferred last \veek .. and then this week we got this nonsense about sub-judice, nothing sub-judice about anything going on. The most there is is a police investigation and a police investigation is not sub-judice, it is not sub anything. And the Minister of Public Harks, Sir - :HR. ROUSSEAU: If I may on a point of information? If I may Mr. Speaker? 11640 - I

June 10,1977 Tape 4138 - Morning AH-2 Sure. MR. ROBERTS: :t-ffi. ROUSSEAU : The Deputy 1-Iinister of Public ~.Jorks never said anything was sub-judice. All he said was that he was advised by the Deputy Minister of Justice not to answer any questions until the details surrounding the investigation were pointed out. Nobody used the word sub-judice, the press used it but the Deputy Minister in his statement did not use that term. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the minister, Hr.

Speaker, and I would then say to him that I hope he will instruct his officials immediately to answer the questions put to them by my colleague from Lewisporte - they are in the transcript, the very central question. And the question was who approved the natronage list, the one with Mr. Walsh's firm's name at the head of the list? And my answer is it ~~as a minister.

I do not know which minister but it ~~as ministerial and the directions came from the minister and that minister according to whoever it ~vas - and I do not know who it was, you will have to look up the times, but that minister must bear the responsibility for it. My point, Sir, my point is that this administration have no moral right to come before this House to ask for any greater grant of power. They have abused the powers which they have, they have not acted properly. Judicial investigation after judicial investigation and more to come.

Pe are not through with the Fisheries scandal yet and far from it because it will be revealed in due course when it is investigated that the Minister of Fisheries was told by his officials that the system which he had set up and instituted was wide open to just the sort of abuses which came. He was told that, ~emorandums were sent to him and when we come to it, when the charges before the courts are disposed of then we will let the Minister of Health defend himself if he can. And I hope we will get the truth out of the whole situation. Because I say, Mr.

Speaker, I say that ~vhat we see in the Public Works Department 1.1641

! June 10,1977 Tape 4138 - 1:forning AH-3 MR. ROBERTS: is but the tip of the iceberg. And now this government comes - the government has refused to make public the list of Rural Development Authority a~plicants, refused giving them public money. And if it is justified to give it to them why not? There is going to be no savaging of any individual and there never has been and never will be . anymore than there is any savaging of the people who are given liqueur licenses or the people who get loans from any other bank.

You can go down and look it up but these mortgages are not registered, there are no instruments registered at any of the public registries in this Province. The money is lent in secret. l.Je do not know on what terms it is lent. We do not know to whom it is lent or for what purpose it is lent. We do not know if ~.;re are going to get it back. t.J'e do not even' see an annual report. The RDA does not even file annual reports here in this Ho~se. All we are left are poor dumb animals to pony up the cash and maybe to express the pious hope that everything is okay. Just to pony up like poor blind, dumb animals.

Well that is not the rule of this House, Hr Speaker nor have this government any authority or any right to ask for it not 1.1642

... . '. June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4139 Page 1 - ms Mr. Roberts. on their record~ .If ever there was a crowd of bunglers and incompetence and maybe more than that. We will find out in due course whether there was more or not. But at the very least on the facts on the r~cord now the present administration have shown themselves to be bunglers and incompetent, flinging public money away. And I am not even talking about things like the Lower Churchill. I could go on on the $80 million that have been wasted on that on a mad folly of a dream. And they would not even listen a year ago when we told that it was mad folly.

But I am talking of the day to day administration, the short of administration that led the Public Works department - and I believe deliberately - to breach the Public Tenders Act - that is what I believe - deliberately and consciously with ministerial approval to try to breach the Public Tenders Act to favour a few specific contractors. And we will find out why. Eventually we will find out where all those other television sets went to and the rifles and all the other things that have not come out yet. We will find out where they went. AN HON. MEMBER: Do not be ridiculous. MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, so the minister is ridiculous. It damn well is ridiculous. It is public money. Millions of dollars flung away, 200 work orders -was it? -for $600,000. And if that was not a deliberate attempt, first of all to get around the lag, and secondly to favour one individual contractor, if that was not a deliberate and a conscious knowing attempt what was? What could it have been. It was not accidental. Two hundred work orders for a $600,000 job.

I am told that there are twelve strings of lights - is it? - out in that hangar in Torbay with nine lights in each, and there were eleven work orders issued in respect of it. Now what could that have been except a deliberate, a knowing, a conscious, blatant attempt to get around the law, the law of which this administration used to boast, the Public Tenders Act, and to get around it for the benefit of one company, because is it not interesting that this one company keeps showing up. Oh, there were fifteen or sixteen companies on the list. In Corner Brook yesterday I spoke with one of the principals 1.1643

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4139 Page 2 -ms Mr. Roberts. in another of the companies. He told me that he got $1,000 work last year, and he said that is all it ought to have been. It was an emergency and we did the job and we were paid the $1,000, and that was two separate work orders. One, for $100 and one for $800 or $900 - a company in Western Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, this administrationhave forfeited the right to ask for the confidence of the House in this sort of programme.

They should be coming in and amending the bill by saying we are going to accepc·a requirement that we present to the House each year a list of where the money went, and how much we are getting back. There is not even an annual report. Where is the annual report of the RDA? The minister gets up and makes a speech, well and good, aore power to him, but he only gives us what he wants to give us. He puts the best gloss he can on it. That is his job. We expect that. It does it well, and more power to him.

But where is the list; where is the accounting to the public; where is the dedication to the principle that the House rules; where is the tender concern for the way in which public money was spent? I have long felt that the RDA was a great patronage, and was being used by the administration for low partisan reasons. And everythi~g which I have heard over the last three or four years has confirmed that, and this bill just puts the caps stone on it. The administration are not acting as men who have nothing to hide.

They are acting in every sense like men who have something to hide, and they are hiding it, and they are now bringing in this bill which is as offensive and as abusive of the powers of this House as any piece of legislation could be. I suppose the minister will give us his reason for it. I regret I was not here last evening to hear him move second reading. I suppose he will give as his reason administrative convenience. It is easier for him to approve it. Well, that is the sort of reason, you know,- I could use a very offensive analogy, -! will no.t, because it is not - MR.

NEARY: It would be out of character. 1.1644

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4139 Page 3 - ms MR. ROBERTS: No, it would not be out of character. !t would be offensive to the minister - of course, not. The minister is offensive by his very presence. If we had a minister who showed some concern or some courage or some compassion we would be much more interested in him. The Minister of Health, Sir, has made a disaster of every department he has ever turned his hand to. He is now ruining - what was a first-class aepartment of Health. And the health services in this Province, Sir, are showing the effects of it. Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to get side­ tracked into minor gain. This bill, Sir, this act, this line of administrative convenience , Sir, that is when the House should stand up and be cautioned, whenever ycu are told to do it for administrative con1renience. The most administratively convenient thing would be to dispense with the 1.1.645 - J

June 10, 1977 Tape 4140 EC - 1 !1R. ROBERTS: House of Assembly. Administratively a dictatorship is by far and away the most convenient system. Hhy bother with all this nonsense of Cabinet? Why bother with elections? They are inconvenient, they are loose, they are sloppy, they are imprecise, they sometimes do not get settled quickly, they are not predictable. All the things the bureaucratic mind does not like are represented here in this House. · And that is the reason we have a House of Assembly.

Administrative convenience - for a couple of hundred loans a year - Cabinet are not that busy - nothing Cabinet are doing that would prevent them from hearing the Minister of Rural Development saying, 'Boys we have another list of recommendations here. They seem in order to me and they have been cleared by the RDA, and they all seem to be straightforward, they are within the rules, they have been checked by the officials,' and then somebody will look at it and say, 'Very well, let us make an order of approving them.' And that is just what happens. But now that will not be necessary.

The minister could do it in the dark of night. He has got his friends on the RDA, his political friends- two of his Cabinet colleagues, and Mr. Lloyd Archibald, an estimable gentleman - runs a grand hotel in Harbour Grace in which I have often had the pleasure of staying and taking a meal, and I recommend it highly - well known to Your Honour I am sure - but also a man who is an extremely close personal friend of the Premier and of course that is why he is on the RDA today.

And I do not hold that against him, but let us recognize the situation for what it is - and there will be two other appointments in due course - probably gentlemen of the same calibre and for the same reason. So, Mr. Speaker, the minister comes in now and wants power so that he and his friends can make loans of public money without accounting to anybody, without even revealing the names - he could lend it to his wife if he wanted to and we would never find out about it unless something shows up in the mail which things 1.1646

June 10, 1977 Tape 4140 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: do from time to time. It is amazing how often my post office box produces tidbits in plain brown envelopes from Confederation Building. The gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) as well has much the same experience. It is amazing how often the 'phone calls come from somebody that - 'I cannot give you my name, but look at something- look at this_- _ask some qu~stions.' How the television set thing came out - whatever the inquiry result is I do not know.

What the Chief Justice will say we will find out, but that is how it came about - nothing secret - just anonymous tips from public servants who are fed up with the way this government is running it, who see the abuses, who see the patronage, who see the waste and the inefficiency - the sort of thing that went on in Bonne Bay, the sort of thing that has gone on in the Public Works Department, the sort of thing that went on in the Fisheries Department. And we have not started on some other departments yet. And now the Rural Development Authority asks for more money, more power. The minister wants more power.

He should be asking for less. He should be accounting for what he has and he has not. My colleagues, Sir, have stated our position- we oppose it. I will oppose it, we will all oppose it as strongly as we can. It is not a minor piece of legislation. It seems innocuous, it seems innocent, but, Sir, it contains within it very dangerous seeds. It is very offensive, it is very wrong. And I would say to private members opposite who are not bound by the Cabinet, men like the gentleman from Exploits (Dr. Twomey) I hope he will speak on this.

I have not said a word against the principle of rural development - I am all for that, but what I do speak against is the way in which this government carries it out, the way in this this government administers public funds, the way in which they are wasting our money. They are driving our taxes up. I could go on the aircraft. Oh, we could talk about the way in which aircraft are used. By the way,it was not Star Lake, it was Partridge Lake that the famous hunting trip was on. There were three helicopters there. There was a private camp that was made available. ~1647

June 10, 1977 AN RON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: AN RON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: Tape 4140 (Inaudible) Pardon? Stag Ridge. EC - 3 Stag Ridge is it? And the slaughter that went on and was paid for out of public funds - and of course it was. It is the helicopters that we referred to last week - there were three. I have the registration numbers. If we want a public inquiry let us have one. The gentleman from Exploits (Dr. Twomey) would agree with me on that. Mr. Speaker, the bill is wrong, it is offensive, it should be withdrawn. We will oppose it.

We have given our reasons and our reasons are founded in principle, Sir, and they are also founded in the way in which this government are handling the administration of the affairs of this Province. They are inept, incompetent, bungling and possibly, Sir, more than that - possibly more. When these inquiry reports come in that is one way to get to the bottom of it. We will find out just what the story is. It is not all ministers, not all departments. I do not say it is a censcious thing. There have been some conscious things. The Public Works thing is conscious and deliberate.

No doubt in my mind on the evidence which has come out now before the Public Accounts Committee and in the Auditor-General's Report that the course of events there was a deliberate and well thought out attack on the principle of public tenders. It was trying to get around it to benefit one or two specific - I think there is really one firm or one corporate group of firms that obviously raises the question, Why, Who got what? Somebody got something. Somebody got something - there is no doubt about that. There can be no doubt.

The course of events is suggestive only of one conclusion and when we get the report of the Commission of Inquiry - the Royal Commission - then we will know. But, Sir, this administration have made no case in support of this bill. In fact, Sir, everything that they have done and said - everything that they have done and said is supportive of only one conclusion, supports only 1.1.648

June 10, 1977 Tape 4140 EC - 4 MR. ROBERTS: one result and that is that this bill should not be adopted by this House, Sir. We will vote against it and we ask the government, Sir, to withdraw it, to take it back. The Rural Development Authority if it is functioning properly, can function without this, and if it is not functioning properly it ought not to be allawed to function in the dead of night in secrecy and everything else. The bill goes against everything that we on all sides in this Rouse should hold dear. And we will oppose it, Sir. It is our duty and we will do it with a heart and a half. Thank you.

SOME RON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I think I should have a few words to say on. this particular bill. I cannot seem to find it there among everything that is on my desk. I guess it was distributed - some members have it. But I did get a chance to glance through it :11.649

June 10, 1977 Tape 4141 (Morning) Mr. Callan: there this morning, and I concur with what the Leader of the Opposition just had to say about the bill. Of course, before that we heard from the member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Hr. Rideout) and his objections to the bill. Mr. Speaker, I want to repeat w·hat I had to say in earlier speeches regarding the Department of Rural Development.

In earlier speeches I condemned the department for taking so long the period from the time that somebody applied for a loan until they got the word back that it 't.Yas either rejected or approved, PK - 1 in some instances it took months. And the reason for that, one of the reasons at least is because the Department of Rural Development had to, if it involved the sawmill, for example, the loan for a sawmill, then the Department of Rural Development had to go to the Department of Forestry and ask the people there to do some studies and so on, and then provide them with some facts and figures.

If a Rural Development loan had something to do with a fisheries project then the Department of Rural Development had to go to the Department of Fisheries and get some facts and figures, sometimes taking months as I said to get the information back. This is one of the things that - as I indicated earlier I do not think that the Department of Rural Development, Mr. Speaker, is doing anything, I do not think that that department is doing anything that could not be done just as effectively and perhaps more effectively by the existing departments. I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that if we are going to bring in a bill here, we bring in a bill to abolish the Department of Rural Development, because as I said it is not developed in the rural areas of this Province - SOME HON. t1EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: That is my opinion. MR. MORGAN: Abolish Rural Development. MR. CALLAN: Abolish it, and farm out to the department which can easily handle it. AN HON. MEMBER: Simmer down 'Jim'. Simmer down, 'Jim'. 1.1650 - ..

June 10, 1977 Tape 4141 (Morning) MR. MORGAN: Unbelievable! MR. CALLAN: Money that is being provided now by the Department of Rural Development to finance - MR. MORGAN: Let us tell all Newfoundlanders that. MR. CALLAN: To finance the small fisheries projects - SOME RON. }!EMBERS : Oh , oh ~ MR. CALLAN: - could just as easily be carried out and handled by the Department of Fisheries. The money that is now being handled and ?eing _ hand~d out by the Department of Rural Development for small farm projects could just as easily, and perhaps more efficiently - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

CALLAN: - be handled by the Department of Agriculture. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR. CALLAN: Money that is being channelled into sawmills in PK - 2 this Province could just as easily be channelled from the Department of Forestry, HR. MORGAN: Forestry and Agriculture. Does your colleague agree with you? MR. FLIGHT: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOU1TG): A point of order has been raised. HR. FliGHT: in silence. My hon. colleague here has the right to be heard Would you please ask the Minister of Transportation to be quiet and accord him that courtesy? MR. SPEAKER (MR.

YOUNG): To my knowledge the hon. member has not requested that courtesy. I{R. FLIGHT: No I request it on his behalf, Sir. I could not hear what he was saying. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Well that is your personnal opinion then. MR. CALLAN: Hr. Speaker, - MR. MORGAN: Would the han. member allow a question? Would you allow a question? MR. CALLAN: I hope it is about the Southwest Arm Road. AN RON. MEMBER: Or Markland. 1.165:1

June 10, 19 77 Tape 4141 (Morning) PK - 3 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have seen the han. gentleman as the official spokesman on rural development for his party, and for the Opposition in the House of Assembly. A clear understanding now that the official position of the party and the Opposition is that they would introduce a bill, like to introduce a bill to abolish the Department of Rural Development altogether. !1R. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the han. minister is trying to trap me, and I will not be trapped.

Obviously what I am doing here this moring is standing up without any notes, without even having the bill in front of ~e because as I said I cannot find a copy of it, but in my opinion, and I stated this before in the House, this is not something new that I am saying this morning, I said it in a speech about a month ago when the estimates were going through for the Department of Rural Development, I simply said, and I repeat again this morning especially that the minister is asking for more powers.

What I am saying and I repeat it again is that I do not think there is anything happening in the Department of Rural Development that could not already being happening and was not already happening - MR. MORGAN: MR. CALLAN: MR. MORGAN: said. MR. CALLAN: A..~ RON. 'HEMBER: MR. MORGAN: MR. CALLAN: You are retracting it now. You are thinking - No I am not retracting it. I am repeating it. You would like to see the department abolished, you I am repeating it. The minister abolished. No the department, not the minister, the department. If this department, Mr.

Speaker, were functioning in an imaginative manner which it should be, if it were functioning in an imaginative manner, if there were some imagination shown, but what imagination does it take to dish out money for a beauty parlor and all of the other silly nonsense. Money that has never been paid back, and it will never be paid back. The money that is being dished out for sawmills as I am saying, and I repeat it, could just as easily be :11652

June 10, 1977 Mr. Callan: dished out to Tape 4141 (Morning) PK - 4 1.1653

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4142 Page 1 - ms Mr. Callan. the Department of Forestry and Agriculture. Money for farming projects could just as easily be channelled through the Department of Forestry and Agriculture. Money for the small fish filleting plants and so on could just as easily be channelled through the Department of Provincial Fisheries. That is simply what I am saving, and I repeat it in case the Minister of Transportation and Communications does not understand what I am saying. Mr.

Speaker, in an earlier debate, while the estimates were going through on the Department of Rural Development, a motion was brought in that the minister's salarv be reduced to $1. I did not bring it in. But it just shows how bon. members feel about this department that seems to have so much secrecy surrounding it. I asked on numerous occasions if the minister would table information showing how many repossessions there were in the Department of Rural Development last year, how many repossessions this year? How do they line up? Are the number of repossessions getting larger? Why?

What is the reason for these repossessions? Have the loans been made erratically? Have they been not based on good sound business ideas? These are the questions that I have asked, and- these are the questions that I would like to see answers to. Mr. Speaker, this bill,

An Act To Amend The Department Of Rural Development Act, as I said, I disagree with this sort of a bill giving the minister so much power. The requirement of approcal of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council for loans, grants, etc., under

Section 7 would be removed by this amendment. The relevant provision at present reads as follows: The powers, functions and duties of the minister extend to and include the supervision, control and direction, without duplicating or controlling the functions of other departments and agencies of the government of all matters relating to, notwithstanding the provisions of the Crown Guarantee and Loan Act, 1973, but subject to the approval of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council and to such terms and conditions if any. That thev are asking to be changed. And as I said earlier, 1.1654

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4142 Page 2 - ms Mr. Callan. Mr. Speaker, I think that it is giving too much power to the minister. I think again, of course, as I said yesterday when I spoke on a bill there regarding another matter, that these bills are trying to be rushed through. The government is trying to rush them through hoping that everybody is so sick and tired of looking at each other after four months in this House MR.. RIDEOUT : Close her down, 'Frank'. MR. CALLAN: - they want to close her up and shave the bills through. And I repeat again, Mr.

Speaker, what I said yesterday afternoon that I look on these bills as white papers. To me they should be considered as white papers, proposed legislation, that we can have a chance to look at and study and get some input over the Summer, call the House back into session in the Fall, and then when everybody has had a chance to study these bills, and if the bill concerns teachers and education, during the Summer we can get a chance to get some input from our constituents who are in the education field.

And in the case of this particular bill, we can get some input from people who have had some connection, some dealings with the Department of Rural Development, and they can tell us, as some people said last year, as they told us last year. During the by-election, the Minister of Rural Development out on the districts of Bonavista North and Ferryland and Exploits, saying to some people, If you vote for us, if you vote for the P. C. candidate, then I will see to it that you get a Rural Development loan. Unless you vote that way, the chance of getting it is slim indeed. I do not know, Mr.

Speaker, whether these things happened. We have been told that they happen. We have been told. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, it probably does not have too much to do with this bill, but I have been told that that very same minister sat on federal wharves, government wharves in the various districts and convinced some of the older people that they talked to there, that government had a way of knowing how 1.1655 - .·

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4142 Page 3 - ms Hr. Callan. the man voted in a secret ballot. Whether it has happened or not, I do not know. But where there is smoke there is fire, Mr. Speaker. Hr. Speaker, I do not want to delay the proceedings of the BOuse, but I am agains .t this bill ' 11656

June 10, 1977 Tape No. 4143 ~~. CftLLA~: and as I said just now, and I say it once more before I sit do~~. that I think that most members of this House are to the point nmv we are sick and tired of looking at each other after four months. I think this House should - ~ve should be given an opportunity to study these bills to get some input to ask some questions of our constituents. What do you think of this bill? -~d then come back in the Fall.

Come back in the Fall and debate them and where we can debate them more intellengently. f:fe have to look at them now as 't.Yhite papers, like the snowmobile regulations, that the public were asked to have some input into before final legislation was drafted and presented before this House. t..rr. Speaker, it is quite s:.mple to pass these bill. It just a matter of adding an amendment if SOlll£'thing there about that particular bill or this particular bill does not seem right and 'tve can have arguments for and against it, then the bill can be amended ~ as it goes through Committee.

So I look upon them as white papers. I think that the government should consider this seriously, the idea of giving us an opportunity to study them, not hand theil1 out one day and ask us to vote on them the next. But give us an opportunity to study them over the Summer, come back in the :Fa.ll 't.Yhen l•:e c1:1.n talk about them more intellegently with some input from the public that are concerned about these bills just as 'tve are, then \•Te can talk about them, and -.;,re can vote on them intellegently. Hr.

Speaker, I am against the bill and I am against the way the government is trying to rush this bill and others t~rough this Eouse. SI')!-'E Hm~ . }TE~.r:BE:-'.S : }IT'.. SPEAKER: Hear! Fear! The hon. member for Le~..risporte. 1.1657

June 10, 1977 Tape ~To. 4143 NY:- 2 !'-!R. r·miTE: Hr. Speaker, before making ~y remarks, let us be clear and let us make it abundantly clear ~vhat "Te are talking about and what this 1.Jill is as:dng us to do. T think it is very important that we are all very, very clear on the bill. The bill is very short, probably one of tr.e shortest bills that has come before this Legislature in this present session. And all it is asking, very, very simple, ver] straightforward, very plain, all it is asking, 1:~r.

Speaker, is that the lY"ords, 11 approval of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council" and that is it, be removed from the bill, the approval of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council be removed from the bill. 1·~r. Speaker, I want to tr..ake a few comments on this because I have probably been more closely associated with P.ural Development, probably not but I think I have an)TI:·7ay, than a lot of other ~embers. I have made it my business to get involved, to try and promote Rural ~evelop~ent loans and grants in my district and in a good tr..any cases in co-operation with the minister we have been successful.

I also want to make it clear, :r-:r. Speaker, anC. I make no bones about making it clear, that I want to get out of the House of ~ssembly as quick as I can, like a lot of other members. I want to ge;: home to my district and to start doi....~g some work in my district. I feel that since 1-re have been here in February we have been here long enough. I am staying in a hotel like a lot of other members here and it is costing us an arm and a leg to even exist in St. John's when T,7e have homes in our own c!istrict so I r,.1ant to make it very clear that I want to get home as quick as I can. But, ~(r.

Spea~cer, we on this side are going to be here until Christmas to stop this bill. He ~Y"ill be here the r..rhole Summer and it does not bother us one single bit. lve ~.rill stay here until Christmas if necessary. l~r. Speaker, we have not been involved in obstruction tactics since legislation came before this House. There has been only one or two pieces of legislation that we ha-.:re taken objection to and spoken about. In most cases, 11658

Jt..me 10, 1 c-.77 Tape _.o, 4143 .. -e~ - 3 ~ . muTE: Mr. Speaker, we have been very, very co-operative, made our few re11arks :md gone along with legi$lation and in a lot of cases only the Opposition spokesman on this side has gotten I involved in the various pieces of legislation coming before the II~use. Yesterday morning a prime example, ~~r. Speaker, the ~finister of Municipal Affairs and Housing brought in three or four bills, I spoke for only a few minutes on each bill, and the bills went ahead - .· 1.1.659

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4144 Mr. White. with our approval, and that has been the case for just about every single piece of legislation or every single amendment that has come before this House so far. But, Mr. Speaker, we made a calculated decision to oppose this bill. We are now doing it. Some of my colleagues have spoken. Others intend to speak, Mr. Speaker, and we are going to keep objecting and opposing this bill until it is withdrawn by the government, because it is totally unnecessary and totally irrelevant to the operations of the Department of Rural Development.

If the bill were relevant, if it were going to do something to expedite rural development in this Province, then fine and dandy we Page l - ms would go along with it. But in this case all it does is give additional power, total supreme power to the minister, and we do not want that, and we are not going to go along with it. It is against every principle, Mr. Speaker, that this Legislative Assembly stands for. It is against the principles of democracy. It is agaiast the principles of parliamentary government. You have a Cabinet who hold total responsibility for what goes on with respect to government activity.

It has long been the p~inciple, Mr. Speaker, that when a Cabinet Minister takes an oath, he agrees that he will go along with.collective decisions of the Cabinet. The ministers sit in session in the Cabinet Room, they argue, they debate, they disagree, and they agree. But af~er they emerge from that Cabinet meeting, Mr. Speaker, they have to all go along with the collective decision that the Cabinet has made.

And if any member , as we have seen down through the years, down through history, if any disagrees with the collective decision taken by the Cabinet, then he must write out his resignation and pass it in to the Premier. That is the system of parliamentary government that we have in this Province, Mr. Speaker, and I am here to uphold it, and I will supposing it takes me the whole Summer to do that. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WHITE: Now, Mr. Speaker, I have been after the Minister of Rural Development on a number of occasions to speed up the 1.1660 - -·

June 10, 1977 Tape ao. 4144 Page 2 - ms Mr. ~1b.ite. process of Rural Development grants and loans, and only a few days ago I was after him again to speed up a particular Rural Development grant and loan programme for a company in my district that is going to result in at least another five jobs coming into play right off the bat. I talked to the minister about it, and I thank him for his co-operation, and he is going to try and expedite the approval or disapproval, whatever the case might be, of that particular application.

The same has been with a number of other applications that I have had from my own district, Mr. Speaker. I have gone to the minister or his officials to try and get the system speeded up and so on. And, Mr. Speaker, I would vote for this bill if I knew that it was going to speed up the process, but I cannot now, Mr. Speaker. It gives too much power to the minister. You cannot give a Minister of the Crown this kind of power. It has to be a collective decision. If a decision is made to make a loan, what are the other ministers of the Cabinet going to say about it.

How do they feel about loans being made without their knowing about itZ I mean it is crazy, Mr. Speaker, and it is a crazy system, and it is a crazy piece of legislation, and we have to stop it, and we are determined to stop it. Mr. Speaker, I have had - I do not know - the minister read out last year how many Rural Development loans and grants had gone to my particular district in one year, the year previous. I think it was something - I do not know - fifty or sixty. I am not sure how many it was. But let me tell you, Mr.

Speaker, not one single person or grouu who have received Rural Development loans and grants have ever said to me, Look, is my name going to be made public? Not one has ever said that to Mr. Speaker. The thought he~e and the rationale be~ng_given out by the minister and bv others is that if the names were being made public, it would slow down the Rural Develoument process in this Province. It would retard development in rural Newfoundland. That is not so, Mr. Speaker. I do not think there is a single person who has received a Rural Development :11661.

June 10, 1977 Tape no. 4144 Page 3 - ms Mr. White. grant or loan who would mind a single bit having his name made public. Every other thing that we have asked for here, Mr. Speaker, in this House or just about everv other thing has been made public. All the estimates went through. And the only real trouble we had in the estimates, Mr. Speaker, was in this particular department. The names of people who are receiving grants and loans from the government from Rural Development are not being made public. We do not know what thev are, and we want to know what they are.

I mean what kind of a stage have we reached in this Province where that kind of information can be hidden awav? What k~nd of development is going on here today? Why must it be that a person who comes to the government to get a loan wants to keep his name secret? I do not think there are very many. So if none of the people who are getting loans and grants want to have their names kept secret, 1.1662 - ,

June 10, 1977 Tape No. 4145 !·!}".. "WHITE : then who does? Does the minister? Does the Cabinet want those names kept secret? If so, why? There mast be a reason. If there is nothing to hide, ~Ir. Speaker, if there is nothing to hide and if th~ people involved do not want to keep their name secret then what is the rationale for keeping those names from the public forum. I do not think they should be kept from the public forum. and I do not think that they should be kept from the public forum, and I think, ~r.

Speaker, it is going to get to the 3tage where this is going to create such a bug on the back of the government they are going to eventually break do•,m and start giving out the names of peop] e who are receiving grants and loans from Rural Develop~ent. In this Rouse this year the member for LaPoile n'rr. Neary) tabled the list of the people who had received grants or loans from the Ne-,;vfoundland and Labranor Development Corporation which are far greater and far bigger loans and gra..1.ts. That list was tabled here.

On that list w·ere names that ~;re had not known about before but there rN'ere no repercussions from the tabling of that list, not a single repercussion. There are just as many people tocay trying to get grants and loans from Neufoundland and Labrador Development Corporation as thet:"e 'Jere ~efore that list was made public and I would suggest, ~·Ir. Speaker, the same thing •.vould apply if the names of people "ho are getting grants and loans from r.ural Development \vere made public. . Hr. Speaker, this is a new period of political history making if you will, in this Province.

I think the people of ~ewfoun~land, ~r. Sfeaker, are looking for c:ean government. The people of Newfoundland, Yr. Speaker, are looldng for clean politicans. The people of :01e\·7foundland, }rr. Speaker, are looking for han. politicans. They ~,yant everything above board. It is a ne-:v era of politics in Ne~v-fonndland. Hr. Speaker, if there is one thing that members have to m3ke sure they do Nhile they are meiDbers of t"!lis House is 1.1663

June 10, 1977 Tape No. 4145 N'E - ,2. ~rp .• WHITE: to keep their noses absolutely, totally clean. A."N" HON. ~!ENBER: Hear! Hear! I~R. r.JHITE: Because that is what the people ar~ a.!SH.ng for and that is w·hat the people are cl.emanding. The stage of decline in the image of politicians I think, ~1r. Speaker, is turning around.

It is turning around because we are now seeing in places like Ontario where the Liberal Party spent less than $300,000 to get elected, or :1.ot get elected but become the official Opposition yesterday, it is a milestone in political campaigning and the most populous province in Canada and those are the kinds of things that are happening eve~rhere, ~~r. Speaker. In the rnited St~tes, Congress has put stringent controls on all members of Congress. They are now not allowed to make any more than $1,000 besides what they make fro~ their congressional salaries. So, l~r.

Speaker, the people of Newfoundland are demanding decency in politics. They are demanding cleanliness in politics and they are demanding that everything be above board and that everything be open to public scrutiny and that is why there is an opposition here and that is what we are doing. Now, ~~r. Speaker, let me make one thing clear and that is we on this side ere totally in favour of rural development in Ne~vfoundland. Ue want to see as much of it as vre can. And goodness knows if I should not be the one saying that because if there has been a successful rural development then it has been in my ovm district.

There are t~·m or three cases that are fantastic exmrples of ~:rhere the :Rural Developnent T'epartment have done gc-od things and it is r,rorking. But not one single place, not one of those cases r,:rould the people invol vee care one single bit if their names cw.e before this Legislature because they are honcurab le people. ~~ey made honourable applications and they are carrying on honourable jobs. So I cannot for the life of me understand or see t.;r1ly the government sees fit to bring in this kind of legislation, asking us to 1.1664

June 10, 1977 Tape No. 4145 NH- 3 l•IR. ~miTE: give the Minister of Rural Development total power for the loaning of money in this Province, collectively as a Cabinet. That is hard enough to t~~e when we are not getting the names. '!'he.t is d!ff::! .c':!lt enough to accept in the swallow when we are not getting the narees. But, }fr. Speaker, we are being asked to give total auth~rity to the Minister of P.ural Development for loaning m.oney to people througt-out this Province. We are not going to do it, ¥r. Speake~. Not for a moment are we even going to consider giving the minister this kind of authority.

He have fifteen or sixteen ministers of the Crown. They should take collective c1ecision for what loans are made to people throughout this Province. The Hinister of Finance does not mind getti11g up and telllng us about the loans or showing in the Public Accounts that are tabled in this Rouse, the loans that are made by his department. There are a number kicking around the Province. He all know 'tvhat the y are. There is no need for me to b~ing there up, loans that are made. They are here. T,.Je can talk about them. He debate them. But we use discretion, ,_rr. Speaker.

He do not stand up and rip somebody apart just because they got a loan from the government. That is not the vray we like to act and like to do things. He like to see ourselves as people who have some degree of r~sponsiblity, '!- ~r. Speaker. :11665

June 10, 1977 Tape 4146 (Horning) PK - 1 Mr. White: responsibility, ~r. Speaker. And "toTe will only ask questions and bring up matters before this House if we feel they should be. Now we think, Mr. Speaker, we think that this bill should be withdrawn, should be taken back. There is no emergency in this Province at the moment to require this kind of legislation. 1~e feel that the government should give second thoughts to this and pull it back right away. There is absolutely no need for it to go through. If they ~..rant they can use their majority to bully this through the House over our dead bodies, Mr.

Speaker, because we are going to be against this one I can assure you. And we do not care if we are here for the rest of the Summer in Committee or however long it takes for us to stop this then we are going to do it. He have made that decision. He are going to stick by that decision. And not a single other piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, that has co~e before this House so far this year were we as determined on as ~ve are on this one. Nm..r, Mr. Speaker, it would not be a loosing face for the government to withdraw this particular bill. Let me give you an example.

Earlier in this session the government brought in a Statistics Bill, Netvfoundland and Labrador Statistics Agency was set up, that was earlier in this session, and one of the powers or one of the clauses in that particular bill, Mr. Speaker, was that the minister shll carry on such investigations to obtain statistical information as he shall see fit. And that was one of the clauses. I remember it very distinctly and very plainly, Clause 2 (

b) of that Statistics Bill that came before the House. And that clause as I said gave powe.r to the minister to carry on such other statistical surveys as he deemed necessary. I stood here, Mr. Speaker, and I said I was opposed to that. And in Committee I moved the motion that that particular clause be stricken out, be taken out, and that the minister not be given any more power than was outlined in the legislation. 1.1666

June 10, 1977 Tape 4146 (Morning) PK - 2 Mr. White: Now we were offered a compromise. The ~tinister of Justice said, Okay, the House Leader said, Okay we will take out the word 'minister' and vle will put in Clause 2 (

b) that the Lieutenant-Governor in Council will carry on such other surveys for statistical information as is required. And we said, No. Take it out. We do not even want the Cabinet to be able to start finding out things about Newfoundlanders that is not required in the legislation that was brought in. And eventually a day or so later the Government House Leader, the Minister of Justice withdrew that clause completely. He took it out of the bill completely.

And that is what we are asking now to have this bill withdrawn, take it back, we do not want to see it come before the House any more, throw it out, tear it up, burn it, because we do not want to see it here. We are not going to support it. We are going to object to it. We are goir.g to filibuster if that is what you call it, and I do not mind saying it, Mr. Speaker, or Madam Speaker, that is a new one on me. So, Mr. Speaker, as I said we want the government to withdraw this bill, and I will emphasize once again that we have not been obstructin~ here in this House since legislation has been going through.

We have not been getting up on every single piece of legislation saying ~ve are not going to go for it. All our members have not been speaking on every single piece of legislation. Usually it is only the spokesman that has been dealing with legislation unless there was a particularly important or controversail bill. So, Mr. Speaker, although this is a small bill in terms of its length and in terms of the amount of paper it contains, it· is only one paragraph, three and a half lines, it is asking us, Mr.

Speaker, to take away the ~.rords "the Lieutenant-Governor in Council" and leave the minister with total responsibility for giving out grants and loans in this Province. 1.1667

June 10, 1977 Tape 4146 (Morning) Mr. r..1hite: No, Mr. Speaker, we are not going to go forth, we are going to fi~ht it, we are going to filibuster, we are going to speak, we are going to talk, we are going to talk about it publicly until this bill is ~qithdratrn by the Government House Leader.

And I say to the Minister of Justice, the Government House Leader, my good friend that if he wants to expedite and to get the legislation proceeding through the House on a systematic regular basis, and get it all through, and get it debated within the next four or five or six days and get it all passed then I say to him now do not be PK - 3 so stubborn, take this bill out, tear it up, and then the House can proceed ivith its ~qork as we have been doing for the last two or three weeks. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Buchans. ~fR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I am only going to speak very briefly on this particular bill. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. FLIGHT: in Committee. Filibuster. It is not on the bill itself. We ~vill filibuster Wait for Committee. And it is not on the bill itself, Mr. Speaker, it is on the principle of the bill. Now, Hr. Speaker, here is the minister coming into this House and asking that we give, the House give up the right, the Cabinet give up the right of deciding as to whether or not programmes are going to cost this Province money. 1.1.668

June 10,1977 AH-1 ~IR. FLI GPT: Give up the right and put t,.,_at right into the hands of the minister. Hell where do ~.re stop, ~lr. Speaker? Why does not the }~inister of Highways or the Hinister of ~' 'unicipal Affairs come in ';.7ith an amendment or with a bill and say that for expediency sake I want the right to decide what to~m councils will get ~vater supolies or I w·ant the right to decide what monies v7ill be spent in this Province in mv department. Why does the l·inister of Highways not come in with an amendment and suggest for expediency sake let me decide ~·That roads v7e will nave this year. Mr.

Sueaker, the principals of this bill are frightening. \.Je are moving faster - it is the fastest thing that vle have e•1er seen in this House that ·-.rould move us to a dictatorship. ~tmv, Mr. Speaker, I have heard over the last vear and "3. half the Minister of Rural Development criticized for the way his programmes have been administered. I have not been one of the people ~..rho stood up and demanded names.

I do not care who gets Rural Development loans as long as ~.re believe, as ·· long as t.re have enough faith in the administration to know that Rural Development is not being used for gross pork barreling, for gross political patronage. I am av1are of some project that has beeR .anproved by Rural Develot)ment that is exactly the opposite, that is good programmes created employment and done the thing that the department ':vas set up to do. And, Mr. Sneaker, let me sav from the very outset that I am totally in agreement with the - and I suonort the Rural Development conceot.

It is probably the salvation for Rural Newfoundland. In years to come it ~.rill probably be the route that ~ve will have to go to maintain a viable and prosperous· economy. But the thought of the minister coming in and suggesting and asking for the approval of this House to give him the sole, absolute, complete right to decide what programmes to fund is unbelievable, the pm.rer grab is unbelievable. I am surprised that the ministers and He have five, six, seven ministers sitting there, I am surprised that they would be prepared to have a member of their 11669

June 10,1977 Tape 4147- Horning AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: Cabinet have that type of ~ower, have that type of right to make that type of decision. What are they there for? Simply to administer to their own departments or are they the