May 5, 1998

GOVERNMENT SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Gerald Smith, MHA

for Port au Port substitutes for Wally Andersen, MHA for Torngat Mountains.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of

Assembly.

CHAIR (Wiseman): Order, please!

I now call this meeting to order. For recording

purposes my name is Ralph Wiseman. I am Chair of the Government Services

Committee. With me this evening is the Vice-Chair, Mr. Jack Byrne; Mr. John

Ottenheimer; Mr. Bob French; Mr. Wally Andersen, filling in for Mr. Gerald

Smith; Mr. Anthony Sparrow; and Mr. Doug Oldford should be along shortly.

The purpose of our meeting tonight is to review the

estimates of the Department of Government Services and Lands. We also have with

us the Clerk and the recorder who is here to record the proceedings. The

procedure has been that the minister would have fifteen minutes to introduce

himself and the department, and to make his opening comments. The Vice-Chair

will respond this evening for fifteen minutes. We will interchange at ten minute

intervals. I would ask that the officials identify themselves before they speak

for recording purposes. The recorder is a little bit unfamiliar with who is

speaking unless you identify yourself.

If you are ready, Mr. Minister, you may proceed

with your opening statements.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you. What I will do initially

is introduce our officials that we have here. Then I will just go into a brief

opening remark and then we will get right into the questions.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, I am

pleased to be here tonight to present my department's estimates and answer any

questions that the committee might have. I will begin by introducing senior

staff of the department. To my immediate left is Barb Knight, the Deputy

Minister; to her left is Winston Morris, the ADM of Commercial and Corporate

Affairs; next to Wins is Wilson Barfoot, Assistant Deputy Minister of Lands.

Mike Dwyer is supposed to be here. but he is not here yet. He is the Assistant

Deputy Minister of Government Services. We also have Ken Curtis, a budget

officer from the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, which is a

twinning department for administrative purposes.

I will provide just an overview of the department.

Although Government Services and Lands is a relatively new department, it is

significant in both size and scope. The GSL is a service orientated arm of

government with responsibility for implementation of government's legislative

and policy directions with respect to public trust and consumer protection.

The key goals of the department are to provide an

efficient and cost effective service to clients, reduce red tape, balance public

protection and trust with economic development, and manage our Crown land

resources to maximize benefits for the people of our Province. The department

has approximately 450 permanent employees who provide a wide range of services

throughout the Province. The department's three branches and twelve divisions

administer more than eighty-five acts. I have a copy of a number of acts if

anybody is interested in looking at those.

I would like briefly to highlight the

responsibilities of the three branches of the department. I think perhaps before

I do that I should also indicate that my Executive Assistant, Mark Duggan, is

here as an observer. I asked if he could be here and it is okay for him to be

here.

First of all we will deal with the Government

Services branch. The GSL's Government Services branch provides one-stop service

to the public and the business community. The branch processes permits, licenses

and approvals, and carries out inspections and investigations on behalf of

various departments. Through its Motor Vehicle Registration division the branch

administers the Highway Traffic Act, provides motor registration services, and

enforces regulations relating to the motor carrier industry. The Vital

Statistics division of the branch registers vital events such as births,

marriages and deaths.

The major objective of the Government Services

branch is to decentralize decision making in services out to the regions. At

present the branch provides various levels of services from thirteen different

locations throughout the Province. In addition to St. John's and Mount Pearl,

Grand Falls-Windsor and Corner Brook, where the full government service centre

and motor vehicle division services are provided, full MRD services are now

available in Clarenville, Labrador City and Conception Bay North, and full GSC

services are available in Gander and Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

The Commercial and Corporate Affairs branch

promotes economic development by assisting businesses and protecting consumers.

It regulates the insurance industry, the trust and loan industry, the credit

union industry, the real estate industry, the securities industry, collection

agencies, mortgage brokers, automobile dealers, provincial lotteries, and

private investigation agencies. The branch also maintains a Registry of Deeds,

companies, cooperatives and bill of sales, administers the residential tenancies

act, provides assistance to tenants and landlords, regulates employee-sponsored

pension plans, and administers the federal government's firearms program.

The branch, in conjunction with the Departments of

Mines and Energy, Environment and Labour, and Finance and Treasury Board, is

conducting a review of the consumer advocate's gasoline price study. The

department is also reviewing the report on the Select Committee of the House on

property and casualty insurance. Both these reports propose significant policy

and regulatory changes, and it is anticipated that government will act on these

reports in the very near future.

The Lands branch helps create a competitive economy

by developing programs to ensure that we use wisely the 95 million acres of

Crown land that we have in the Province. This branch is comprised of three

divisions. The Crown Lands division is responsible for guaranteeing land titles,

processing of applications for Crown Lands, enforcing regulations, maintaining a

Crown Lands registry, and helping resolve conflicts in use and ownership.

The Surveying and Mapping division is responsible

for adopting and promoting geomatic standards and products, undertaking geodetic

surveys on which mapping routine land surveys are based and for the production

of topographic mapping, and for the registry of place names. The Land Management

division is responsible for coordinating the development and implementation of

land use management plans, planning and developing cottage lot recreational

areas, and other land developments.

In the 1998-99 overall budget, the departments

gross expenditure for this fiscal year is $25.5 million, some $2.3 million more

than in the previous year. The increase in gross expenditures for the current

fiscal year is primarily due to three functions: the additional pay period and

the 2 per cent increase in salaries, and the increase in federal funding for the

firearms and security service program, which is offset by federal funding of an

equivalent amount, and of course government's decision not to proceed to

privatize the driver examination program.

If you will recall, government announced plans to

privatize driver examinations in the 1997-98 Budget. After the announcement the

Newfoundland Association of Public Employees asked government to consider the

establishment of a union management committee to identify cost-saving measures

which would enable its staff to continue to provide these services, and

government agreed with this proposal.

The union management committee was successful in

identifying significant savings, and Government Services and Lands was also able

to find addition ways to maximize savings within its overall budget. Because of

these combined efforts we were able to come up with the solution that was

acceptable to both parties, and on this basis we decided not to proceed with

privatization.

Revenues for the current fiscal year are estimated

to be $5.94 million, which is 2.34 more than in the fiscal year 1997-1998, and

the estimated costs in the departmental related revenues is a result of two

factors. There was increased land development sales. A major initiative for the

department this year and the next two years will be the development and sale of

cottage lots as well as other residential and commercial land development. The

department expects to raise $1.3 million annually over the next three years in

these initiatives - an increase of $1.29 million in federal related revenues

associated with the implementation and administration of a new federal firearms

act.

While gross expenditures and revenues have

increased, it should be noted that the net expenditures for the department for

1998-1999 are on par with last year and are only $45,500 over the 1997-1998

budget.

Just in conclusion, Mr. Chairman, our goals are to

provide efficient and cost-effective services to our clients, to reduce red

tape, to efficiently and effectively manage our Crown lands, and to balance

public protection and trust with economic development. We do not expect any

significant impacts on human resources over the next two years, except that

which would normally happen through attrition and retirement.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening remarks. I

am certainly here, along with my officials, to answer questions.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Minister.

I will now ask the Clerk to call the first subhead.

CLERK (Noel): Subhead 1.1.01, the Minister's

Officer.

CHAIR: Okay, I will go to the Vice-Chair now

for his opening response. You have fifteen minutes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I do not have an opening response as such. I will

just jump right into the questions, as I normally do.

CHAIR: That's our Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the privatization

of the drivers' licence testing - I had a note here to ask you a question on

that - you talked about savings. This is a complete about-face. I remember

asking questions in the House on this before, just after we became aware that

you were considering doing that, and it was a complete about-face not to go

ahead with it. You mentioned savings in your opening remarks. Could you

elaborate on where the savings were, and were there any extra charges put in

place to keep the staff in place?

MR. McLEAN: When we initially, in last year's

budget, determined that we would privatize to save some $160,000 last year, and

I think it was approximately $246,000 over the next year that we would save - I

have to check with my officials on the figures - what we did was, we met with

the union - Alan Carter, to be exact, much prior to his illness - and decided to

set up a committee, because the union came to us and said: Look, we can show you

where you can save.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I am asking. What

did they show you could save, and were there any extra charges?

MR. McLEAN: That is what I will get to now.

When we set up the committee, the officials had a

number of meetings. Mike Dwyer, who was actually on the committee, is not here.

They decided they would sit down and work on the figures we had provided as to

the number of people we had to provide, the type of service that we were

providing for the examinations, the salaries we were paying, and the number of

offices we had available in the Province where these examinations were being

done. Through all of those different areas there were a few dollars taken out

here and a few dollars taken out there, and we have whittled the budget down to

a point where the overruns resulted in, I think, upwards of $64,000 rather than

the full $160,000. So we were able to mesh that together in a new program that

was combined with other programs through Motor Registration. We arrived at a

conclusion that it was just as reasonable to do it in-house as to privatize it.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have had a number of complaints

personally from individuals, younger people, who have to go in and take their

drivers' test. If they fail, they go back and take it again and it is $50. I

know one individual who went back six times, and had to pay $50 each time, to

past that test. Was that the normal procedure before you decided to keep that

program?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, that was not really part of

the testing part. That was when they went and did their test. They still had to

go to the department to do their test. The privatization project was to

privatize the testing itself -

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, that is what I am talking

about.

MR. McLEAN: - taking people out and teaching

them how to drive.

I think what happened was that we increased the fee

to $50 from whatever it was. I cannot remember now. What was the original fee,

Barb? Thirty-five dollars? What was it two years ago?

MR. J. BYRNE: Whatever, I don't know.

MR. McLEAN: Thirty-five dollars and we

increased it to $50. I think that is where we came into the problem. If somebody

failed their test, they went back and had to pay another $50 because they

failed. The requirement is $50 a test. That wasn't any different than it was

before, only it was $35 before so it wasn't as much.

MR. J. BYRNE: So are you saying now that the

program that was in place actually taught people how to drive? Are you saying

that the program you are talking about now actually taught people how to drive?

Because I was under the impression it was road testing -

MR. McLEAN: No, it was to take people actually

out on the road test.

MR. J. BYRNE: Exactly, yes.

MR. McLEAN: On the road test itself.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, alright.

MR. McLEAN: The proposal we had was to allow

people to take it on as a private industry, a part-time job, or whatever they

wanted to do, in the different areas of the Province in which we were not

offering the service.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

This is a different topic; it deals with the septic

tank inspections or what have you. You have made some changes there, of course.

You talk about engineers being permitted to do the inspections. You have people

in the construction industry, building houses or what have you, take a test and

write an exam, or whatever they have there, to become eligible to be able to do

the inspections. Do you charge these people for permits for having that

authority to do that for the department?

MR. McLEAN: First of all, there are two

categories of people the department has set up who are eligible to do septic

tank design; not necessarily putting it in the ground, but designing it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I know. That is what I am

talking about.

MR. McLEAN: Category one is the people who are

already eligible without having to do an exam.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: Category two is people anywhere at

all, any kind of a contractor - or not even a contractor - an individual who

feels he can do that, can write an exam and then is eligible to do that.

The second part of issuing a permit to put in a

septic tank - was that the question?

MR. J. BYRNE: What I am asking is this: Those

people who will now be permitted to do the inspections, will they get a permit

from the department to do work? If so, will they have to pay for that permit?

MR. McLEAN: No, they will do the design.

Somebody will go out and ask probably two or three people who are eligible to do

this design. They will get the design done, it will be approved by the

department, and then they will contract - either they themselves will go and do

the septic system or (inaudible) contract somebody else.

MR. J. BYRNE: If we had an individual who could

do the design - I am thinking about a contractor, now - if he is approved to do

the design, and obviously if he is going to build a house for someone in rural

Newfoundland he is going to do the installation, more than likely, then he will

be able to do the inspection on his own work?

MR. McLEAN: No, our health inspectors will -

MR. J. BYRNE: They do the extremely fine -

MR. McLEAN: The environmental inspectors will

do the inspection on the design itself prior to the design being put into the

actual septic system going in. Then, he also inspects it before it is covered.

MR. J. BYRNE: Where is the government saving

the money here?

MR. McLEAN: We eliminated a whole design

division of the Health Inspection branch. We eliminated a division which was

strictly doing designs of septic systems. This is only below 1,000 gallons.

MR. J. BYRNE: I know.

With respect to the monies, I remember bringing it

up in the House of Assembly, basically I said at the time that it could easily

end up costing individuals anywhere from $1,000 to $2,000 to have this work

done, and it was pretty well scoffed at. Do you know any of the rates that are

being charged by these individuals today to do this work?

MR. McLEAN: I don't know any firm... Barb may

know some.

MS KNIGHT: I think the average cost at the

moment is around $500. It is anticipated, as more and more people become

qualified to do this work, there will be increased competition and that should

probably be reduced.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is I think probably good in

theory, but I do not think in reality that is the way it is going to be,

personally. I think it is going to increase substantially.

MR. McLEAN: You say it is good in theory, but

not in practice. Why wouldn't it be?

MR. J. BYRNE: Because, as I said before,

especially in rural Newfoundland the cost depending on the system that has to be

designed and the type of soil and what have you, that if we have certain people

having to go back to do that three or four times, whatever the case maybe, it is

going to end up costing them. If you have to have geo-technical people go in to

do testing it is going to cost. It is going to average out. Time will tell.

MR. McLEAN: There will be different costs in

different area, there is no doubt about that.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the Crown Land,

and you referred to that in your opening remarks too, that is another one I have

a bit of a pet peeve with, and the policy with respect to converting from leases

to grants, any -

MR. McLEAN: New Crown Lands pricing policy.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes. What are the stats with

respect to the revenues that has brought in over the past two years? Because I

remember at the time when it was first brought in the figures that were being

thrown around were extremely low. I said it at the time. Last year it

substantially increased and I am just curious as to what the figures are.

MR. BARFOOT: We processed about 5,500 grant

pursuant applications and it has brought in about $11 million over the last two

years.

MR. J. BYRNE: Eleven million dollars. It was

anticipated when it first started it would be $3 million, was it?

MR. BARFOOT: No, that was basically on target.

MR. J. BYRNE: That isn't the figure that was

thrown around here.

MR. McLEAN: Six point four million dollars was

anticipated the first year, and I think it is around $6.4 million or $6.2

million in the second year. That was based, I think, on a 50 per cent take up on

the actual grant pursuant.

MR. BARFOOT: Yes, it depends on what the

original figure was on take up, but the program proved very successful.

MR. J. BYRNE: Are you talking about gross or

net now?

MR. BARFOOT: I think we were probably about

$1.5 million over the targeted amount.

MR. McLEAN: More people took up on it, Jack,

than we anticipated, especially in the first year.

MR. J. BYRNE: They had no choice but to, did

they?

MR. McLEAN: (Inaudible) a choice. Sure they had

a choice.

MR. J. BYRNE: Come on, we know the difference

why it was designed that way. Anyway, I am going to move on to departmental

salaries.

MR. McLEAN: You are going to start at which

one, the very first?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes on page 25. It says Executive

and Support Services. Do you have this book? On page 25, there is only one page

with respect to -

MR. McLEAN: Alright, go ahead Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Just some general questions. The

Executive and Support Services, you have $681,000 in Permanent Salary Costs,

Other Salary Costs are $82,700. I would like to know what that is for. The

number of permanent positions, you have thirteen there. How does that compare to

the year before? In Commercial and Corporate Affairs you have seventy-two

positions. How does that compare to the year before? Government Services is at

282. How does that compare? Provincial Land Management is at seventy-eight

positions. How does that compare to the years before? Are they up or down?

MR. McLEAN: To the year before, to 1997?

MR. J. BYRNE: Sure.

MR. McLEAN: In Executive and Support Services,

if you look at the total salaries, $764,000 -

MR. J. BYRNE: Just the numbers of people.

Forget the salaries.

MR. McLEAN: I do not think we lost any people

at all. I think the numbers are pretty much the same. There may be one or two

here and there, up or down, but nothing substantial.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am just curious. On page 43 of

the Estimates themselves, under the Minister's Office,

section 1.1.01.03.

Transportation and Communications went from $88,900 up to $116,900. Why the

difference?

MR. McLEAN: The reason for that was the fact

that I was a member of the Rural Revitalization Committee which had me

travelling a lot more to all the different parts of the Province - we met with

all the zonal boards -, and also the fact that I am the minister responsible for

Labrador, so it took me to Labrador more often than I would normally have gone.

MR. J. BYRNE: Were you a member of that board

before this budget was put together?

MR. McLEAN: No, that only started in... I am

not sure when we were put on the board, it may have been part of last year, but

not all of last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, because I was wondering why

wouldn't it have been budgeted for, but if it is something that came after -

MR. McLEAN: No, it was started throughout the

year last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, thank you. On the same page,

1.2.01, Executive Support. You have Transportation and Communications there. It

went from $77,600 down to $42,600 and back up to $77,600 for this year. If you

only spent $42,600 last year why do you need to go up to $77,600 this year?

MR. McLEAN: The very simple reason for that was

my travel out of the Province last year was very limited and very low. I only

had I think it was three trips out of the Province.

MR. J. BYRNE: This is Executive Support.

MR. McLEAN: Sorry about that. That is the ADMs

also. We did not travel out of the Province as much. That is basically

(inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: If you did not travel as much

last year, why are you planning on travelling more this year?

MR. McLEAN: We have a number of initiatives on

this year that will take us out of the Province, the support staff, more than we

did last year. We anticipate about three more trips.

MR. J. BYRNE: In the same section, .05,

Professional Services. You had $40,000 in down to $12,600, and up to $40,000

again this year. Could you say why the difference and what professional services

we are talking about?

MR. McLEAN: You are asking why it went down.

and why it is going up again.

MR. J. BYRNE: Why it is down, why it is back

up, and what service are we talking about.

MR. McLEAN: Basically it is outside consultants

that we hire at different times for different things.

MR. J. BYRNE: What outside consultants?

MR. McLEAN: What we would have for doing

studies, in the review of the department divisions. Also, we had an outside

consultant do the study on - I cannot remember what the name of it is now, the

professionalization occupations. The study on the -

MR. J. BYRNE: Who were they? I mean, like, I'm

not getting (inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: It was two ladies, I think, wasn't

it? That was one of those.

MR. J. BYRNE: To do what, though?

MR. McLEAN: Christine Hollett was one.

MR. J. BYRNE: To do what?

MR. McLEAN: What was the name of the study?

MR. MORRIS: She was doing a study on the

regulation of occupations. Government had initiated a White Paper on that a

couple of years ago to determine how we should regulate occupations. We hired a

consultant to do a survey of other provinces to see what they would do. She did

extensive consultations with various occupations in the Province. I think there

was something like fifteen or sixteen focus group sessions she had and consulted

with every occupation that either is regulated or wants to be regulated. We had

her for about six months, I guess, doing this work and that is where the $12,600

was spent last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: This individual you are speaking

about, what would be her background?

MR. MORRIS: She used to work, my understanding

was, with government at one time. She is now doing private consulting work, I

understand, and she has an economics background. I think a master's, I'm not

sure.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Under

Section 2.1.01,

Trade Practices and Licensing. Under Professional Services, .05, we had $1,000

budgeted and the government spent $135,000, and it is back down to $1,000 this

year. The same question -

MR. McLEAN: Dennis Browne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Dennis Browne. That's for the

light and power.

MR. McLEAN: The gas price advocate that we had

to do the study. I mentioned in my opening remarks that these studies are being

considered now, the recommendations are being considered, and very soon we will

have the results of those.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have more.

CHAIR: I will go to Mr. Oldford.

MR. OLDFORD: (Inaudible) will pass.

CHAIR: Mr. French.

MR. FRENCH: Mr. Minister, we went through a

session this morning with the Department of Finance, and something really

intriguing struck me and it strikes me again tonight. We have taken the time to

run through your budget, and in 1997-1998 your department spent $2,238,700 on

information technology. In 1998-1999 - this is the total budget for the

department, by the way - we are going to spend another $1,733,500. I would like

to know what we spent all the money on in 1997-1998, why are we spending so much

money in 1998-1999, and who did we spend the money with?

MR. McLEAN: That is on information technology.

MR. FRENCH: Yes. I went through all of them and

added them all up. There is $92,100 in one, $74,400 in another, $102,700,

$1,275,900, $92,300, $490,100 and $6,000. That is in 1998-1999. In 1997-1998

they go $124,000, $37,200, $201,700, $1,347,700, $103,600, $343,500 and $81,000.

MR. McLEAN: I won't give you all of them but I

will give you the general thrust of it. Number one is the geomatics in our Lands

branch. We are trying to bring all the mapping up to date in the Province, get

it all digitized, so that we have an accurate account of what land is dealt with

in the Province. That is a continuing program. We have a long ways to go with

that. We have about 50 per cent done, I believe, so there is a long ways to go

with that. We are spending a large amount of money on that.

In Vital Statistics, for example, we are using

pre-Confederation processes to do that kind of thing. We have to computerize all

that in order to bring it up so that it is a reasonable service provided to the

people. What we are trying to do is to get all of these services out into the

government service centres, and the only way we are going to be able to do it in

a reasonable way is to computerize that, put it on programs and push it out. Of

course in order to do that we have to have the staff who are able to put all of

this on the computers. We have our deeds and registry. We have all of these

banking things that we have to have records of, and what we are trying to do is

bring all that into the modern age.

I mean, we are in the 1990s now. We should not be

dealing with little flip cards all over the place. We should have all this on a

computer program. All of these programs have to have backup programs, and that

is where we are spending a lot of money on the IT sector. It is to improve the

service that we are offering, basically. There are more specific things that

these fellows can probably respond to where they are dealing with it.

MS KNIGHT: One of the major initiatives in the

department in IT this current year is in a new system that we are putting in,

what is called a tracking information system. The department has a lot of

applications, particularly in Motor Vehicle Registration and in the Government

Service centres. We are putting in a whole new computerized system that will

keep track of applications from the first time they are received by the

department and throughout the whole process, so that at any one time we know

exactly where a particular application is and there is a continual record of

that application throughout all the system.

That requires a major new computer software

program. We are hoping we are going to be able to incorporate our lottery system

into the same program as well. That is a major increase in one of the

initiatives for our IT budget for the year. Actually, our IT budget for this

year is pretty much, in terms of total dollars, the same as it was last year,

but the kind of initiatives we are undertaking are in some cases new. Because

for each year we undertake new projects, they are completed, and then a

different project is undertaken. A large part of the IT budget is also just for

continuation of current systems that are running, our Crown Lands systems and

whatever, our licenses, (inaudible) licenses to buy and use the software that we

use.

The major new initiative in IT for the department

is this application tracking mechanism which will allow us, hopefully, to also

devolve a lot of the decision-making, or more decision-making, to our regional

offices; that they would have the same systems on their system as we have here

in St. John's, which would allow for quicker decision-making and more effective

decision-making.

MR. FRENCH: Who are we spending this money

with?

MS KNIGHT: It is either being done in-house

through the Information Technology people within the departments, or some of it

is contracted through NIS, Newfoundland Information Systems.

MR. FRENCH: So we would not go to public tender

on this, am I correct?

MS KNIGHT: Maybe Mr. Dwyer can answer the

question in terms of the major (inaudible).

MR. DWYER: A little in excess of $1 million is

just for the ongoing day-to-day operations upkeep of the MRD system, with

respect to contracts that are held with NIS and have been with NIS over a number

of years because they have the database for the system. In excess of that, it is

about $1.2 million.

I believe the other three that the deputy just

referred to is for -$320,000 is for an application management system which will

also allow a lotteries licensing system to be gotten for another $70,000 in

corporate commercial affairs,

whereas it would have cost in excess of $250,000.

The Application Management System has gone out for

a Request for Proposals. That will just be coordinated through NIS, and we are

looking for a package to be gotten outside from private industry.

MR. FRENCH: Do I understand you correctly, that

we are going or have gone to public tender for that? We are going to do it

through what used to be Newfoundland Computer Services?

MR. DWYER: NIS is coordinating the Request for

Proposals on our behalf, so they will be providing a coordination role but not a

development role.

MR. FRENCH: So we would pay them for that?

MR. DWYER: Yes, and I believe it ties into

ongoing financial commitments that have been made to NIS.

MR. FRENCH: That is the one we sold to Newtel,

am I correct?

MR. DWYER: I believe so.

MR. FRENCH: On page 51, we went over budget

$46,900 in 1997-1998, from $454,700 to $501,600. Was that a new position, Mr.

Minister, that would have been created in your department?

MR. McLEAN: From $454,000 to $501,000?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, it is 4.1.03.01, Salaries.

MR. McLEAN: Those positions were temporary

staff who were on for part of the year, and some overtime costs.

MR. FRENCH: Can I just ask you what they would

have been doing, the temporary staff?

MR. McLEAN: That probably would have been

surveyors.

MR. BARFOOT: It was a temporary position in our

map and air photo production library. We received a lot of demands for new

photographs and things for next year, and we had to hire a temporary person.

As far as overtime is concerned, the overtime is

basically an ongoing seasonal thing that happens every year when surveyors are

out in the field in the summertime. They have to put in as many hours in a day

as they possibly can because it is a limited field season. That is where the

overtime comes in.

MR. FRENCH: As well on page 51, under 02,

Revenue - Provincial, we budgeted, in 1997-1998, $105,000. It was revised to

$85,000, and this year we have gone up again to $114,000. What is the source of

that revenue?

MR. McLEAN: Provincial revenue?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. BARFOOT: The bulk of that is from the sale

of map products and aerial photographs and things.

MR. FRENCH: That would be to companies,

businesses, that type of thing?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes, or private individuals going

in and looking for (inaudible) and things.

MR. FRENCH: Like the provincial map, the

provincial roads map?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Your department, Minister, would

not do that would they?

MR. McLEAN: Not road maps, I don't think.

MR. BARFOOT: Not the road maps. We don't do the

road maps. That is done through the Department of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation.

MR. McLEAN: These are basic topographical maps

that are over in the Howley Building or in other GSC centres. People come in and

they want to look at a map so they can go somewhere and pinpoint a place on the

map, that sort of thing. It is just general sales.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: It is not cost-recovery yet. That

was when you were with the department. You did not charge enough then. Now we

have to get it back. Did you hear that?

WITNESS: What was that?

MR. McLEAN: I said we didn't charge enough for

them when you were with the department. Now we have to make up for all of that.

That is why we had to increase it.

WITNESS: That is true, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I will address that when I get to

my next question.

CHAIR: Anyway -

MR. FRENCH: Is my time up?

CHAIR: Yes, unless you have one more question.

MR. FRENCH: I have one more.

On page 48, Support Services, the Salaries were

over-budgeted in 1997-1998 by $90,900. That is 3.2.01.01, Salaries. We are over

by $90,900. I would just like to know why.

MR. McLEAN: That is 01?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. We went from $908,300 to -

MR. McLEAN: One of the things that happened

there was we charged some of the staff off to this particular

section when we

should have been charging them to another subhead, and we had to make the

adjustment. That is why it went up to $999,000 and down to $950,000.

MR. FRENCH: So it would not have been new

people hired, or new positions?

MR. McLEAN: No.

MR. FRENCH: I guess, then, the $951,400 is to

reflect what it really should be for 1998-1999?

MR. McLEAN: That is it, yes.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Thank you, Sir.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. French.

Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN: I have just a couple of quick

questions.

Under 3.1.01 -

MR. McLEAN: What page is that?

MR. ANDERSEN: That would be on page 47, Motor

Vehicle Registration. I am just wondering, Minister, the part of charging

vehicle registration... I guess the question being asked regarding rural, and in

this case Labrador, in my riding, where they only operate their vehicles at -

MR. McLEAN: That is in isolated areas where

there is no snow clearing?

MR. ANDERSEN: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: And people only use their vehicles

half the year?

MR. ANDERSEN: Well, less than half the year.

MR. McLEAN: Yes. So you are asking a question

of whether or not that is going to be considered?

MR. ANDERSEN: Has your department ever taken

into consideration the part of -

MR. McLEAN: Actually, Mike is looking at that

right now to get it implemented before the next season. We had hoped to have it

in this year but there were some things that had to be worked out in terms of

the technical issues that we had to look at. We are certainly looking at that in

a very serious way.

MR. ANDERSEN: Okay.

The other question -

MR. FRENCH: Excuse me, could I just interrupt

for a moment? Are we talking a reduced fee here, Mr. Minister?

MR. McLEAN: Well, a half-year fee, or whatever

you want to call it. The reason it is there is because parts of Coastal Labrador

and parts - I think there are three places on the Island where people can only

use their cars or trucks for part of the year because snow clearing is not done.

So we have been looking at reducing the motor vehicle registration that they pay

for their vehicles because of that circumstance. It would be a reduced rate.

MR. ANDERSEN: Okay, so it is being considered?

MR. McLEAN: Yes. I am quite interested in

getting it done, actually.

MR. ANDERSEN: Okay.

The other question, too, is concerning the people

from the inspections branch. Quite often there are no people in these

communities qualified - don't go shaking your head there, Chairman, - to carry

out that inspection. In the past it has been know that the RCMP do check these

vehicles. Quite often they need an inspection and there is no one in these

communities to do it. As you know yourself - well, for people who do not know it

- it costs about $250 to ship a vehicle from any community in my riding to Goose

Bay to have it inspected, and $250 to ship it back. I was just wondering if your

department has ever considered a -

MR. McLEAN: We actually ran into that problem

this past year. The reason we ran into that problem was that the RCMP said they

were not going to do the inspections any more, because they normally did it.

MR. J. BYRNE: What inspections?

MR. McLEAN: You inspect a vehicle before it is

licensed, after -

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: No, when it is sold or relicensed

or anything like that, after it reaches a certain age. A lot of the vehicles on

the coast are not new vehicles, and when the registration runs out, or they are

sold, they require an inspection. The RCMP always did those inspections. They

said this year they were not going to do it any more, but we have resolved that

issue an a temporary basis. It is not resolved permanently, but we are still

working on it.

MR. ANDERSEN: Just one more quick question,

3.2.02. I was looking for inspection services.

Minister, the building codes do come under this

department, right?

MR. McLEAN: Yes.

MR. ANDERSEN: I had a question under the -

MR. McLEAN: We are responsible for

MR. ANDERSEN: 3.2.01, Permitting and Inspection

Services.

CHAIR: Support Services?

MR. ANDERSEN: Page 48.

MR. McLEAN: Okay.

MR. ANDERSEN: Again, requirements - quite

often, certain people want to do extensions to buildings. Under the Permitting

and Inspection Services, quite often when they go to do an extension, the

existing rooms they use quite often have to be completely renovated. I was just

wonder if your department, under Permitting and Inspections, had ever considered

MR. McLEAN: Is that for nursing homes or just

general homes?

MR. ANDERSEN: The particular situation I am

talking about is in the community of Postville, where there was a lodging house.

They had five rooms, and in each room they had two single beds. They have used

the building for the past twelve years. They are now putting an extension onto

the building and they want to use the old rooms for home care. They were only

going to use one bed to a room, but they were told they have to put an extension

onto the rooms even though that were taking one bed out. The fact is that they

were able to use this as a boarding house for twelve years. I was just wondering

if there was anything that could be done that you could put into Permitting and

Inspection Services to try and alleviate some of the handicaps.

MR. McLEAN: I will let Mike answer that, but I

think, just as a general remark, I guess there is a requirement - is there,

Mike? - for certain size rooms for home care. It's more specific than if it's

just a boarding home.

MR. DWYER: I can get in touch with you tomorrow

and discuss the details of this specific one. In general, anything to do with

would be over 50 per cent, or if indeed there is an extension added on where you

have changed the principal entrance, in which case the principal entrance has to

be accessible up to the existing building.

Now in personal care homes there are requirements

by the community health boards and the Department of Health and Community

Services. We administer the legislation on their behalf. There are certain

requirements with respect to size of rooms, whether or not they are accessible,

and whether or not they can be registered as a personal care home. I can get you

some general information on that probably tomorrow or the next day and address

your specific concerns of this one tomorrow.

MR. ANDERSEN: Sure.

CHAIR: Is that it for you, Mr. Andersen?

MR. ANDERSEN: Yes, Chair.

CHAIR: I was going to ask you are you ready for

the question. I thought you were actually lobbying the minister. Okay, no, maybe

you were not.

MR. ANDERSEN: Well, you can take it whatever

way you want to look at it.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Andersen. Mr.

Ottenheimer.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I

just have a few questions, Mr. Minister. I would like to return to Commercial

and Corporate Affairs under Trade Practices and Licensing.

MR. McLEAN: What page is that on, John?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Page 44 in the Estimates. Just

to get back to the role of the consumer advocate for a second, in response to

Mr. Byrne's question you indicated that the revised amount for 1997-1998 of

$135,000 reflected, I think, the costs with respect to the consumer advocate.

MR. McLEAN: The study, yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: His work is ongoing.

MR. McLEAN: No, his work is finished.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: This was with respect to what?

Specifically, what was his role exactly in 1997-1998?

MR. McLEAN: He did the gas price study.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Pardon me?

MR. McLEAN: He did the gas price study for the

government.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: So his work has terminated

with your department?

MR. McLEAN: Yes. He came back with a study that

I think provided eight recommendations that government could act on. The

consumer advocate was appointed based on the representation we were getting from

consumers throughout the Province, but mainly in Central Newfoundland. The study

focused very much on Central Newfoundland, although Dennis went all over the

Province. He even went up to Labrador to get the gas prices and do the

assessments of that. This $135,000 was basically the price of that particular

study. The support he had, by the way, was that we provided the support staff

for him.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Okay, so the officials from

your department assisted him in -

MR. McLEAN: One from my department, also one

from I think it was Executive Council. Was it Robert? The Department of Mines

and Energy was also involved in this with providing certain information to him.

This $135,000 was basically for Dennis who was hired outside of the - an

independent -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: So other work of the consumer

advocate is appropriated in other departments?

MR. McLEAN: Yes. I think he is doing something

with the PUB now, and that is through the Department of Justice, it is not

through us. This was particularly to do the gas study.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: That particular role has

terminated.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, it has terminated. He was

finished as of December 31.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: With respect to trade

practices, firstly, I am just curious as to the approximate number of complaints

that have been, I guess, put in place by individuals against corporations or

businesses. Secondly, what has been the success rate of attempts at mediating

these disputes? Maybe Mr. Morris may be the better person, or Ms Knight, who can

just give me some overview of the success rate of, I guess, firstly the numbers

and then the attempts at pursuing resolutions to the disputes.

MR. MORRIS: We do not have those numbers as to

how many complaints we have had. At least, I don't have them here tonight. We do

keep statistics but I don't have them.

The success rate, I'm sure we probably don't have

an accurate number as to what complaints we get in. How do you define success? A

lot of people complain about something. They may not be satisfied in their own

mind but the complaint may not have been legitimate in the first place. When I

say legitimate, in their own minds it is, but the person they are complaining

against may be doing something which is entirely okay. So there is nothing that

can be done to satisfy the complainant.

As far as specific numbers go, I could not tell you

what they are but I can endeavour to find out and get back to you as to the

numbers of complaints which, say, we get in the run of a year and the types of

complaints.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is a mandate, I think, of

this particular office to attempt to resolve and mediate disputes. Is that

correct?

MR. MORRIS: Yes, on a wide variety of areas. If

consumers have complaints about anything such as telephone scams, telemarketing

calls that they are getting at home that they are not happy about, someone buys

a product, say from a door-to-door salesperson, they are not happy with it, they

buy an automobile and they are not pleased, a used car and they are not

satisfied, people buy a house through real estate and they are not happy - we

get all sorts, many types of complaints in the trade practices area. We do then

contact the business involved and try to resolve it if we can. Sometimes the

consumer is satisfied and sometimes the company does do something and, say, give

a refund -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Is there a follow up?

MR. MORRIS: Yes, we follow up until we close

the file, until we are satisfied and we say to the consumer: I am sorry, there

is nothing further we can do. Sometimes there is no other choice but to take the

other party to court, small claims or something like that. Sometimes that is our

advice: Look, this is as far as we can go from a mediation point of view. If you

are still not satisfied, there is a court option. Like I say, it is pretty

difficult to say how successful we are in resolving these disputes, but I can

certainly get numbers as to how many we have in the run of a year.

MR. McLEAN: We get lots of those, John. I even

got one there a while back. A person called me from a coastal community

complaining because ducks were running across his lawn. He asked me if there is

anything I can do about it.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: You referred it to Mr. Morris.

MR. McLEAN: No, I did not, I actually referred

it to Carol (inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I can imagine there would be a

variety of complaints. I don't recall the act that well, but from my

recollection of the act there is a provision in the act whereby a business or a

corporation can be prosecuted, I believe, pursuant to a

section of the act. Is

that correct?

MR. MORRIS: Which act?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Trade Practices.

MR. MORRIS: The Trade Practices Act, yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Is that role carried out by

your office or is that then transferred to the Department of Justice?

MR. MORRIS: We do prosecute people from time to

time in conjunction with the Department of Justice. Once we reach that stage we

do get a lawyer from the Department of Justice to assist us, for sure. We do

prosecutions, maybe a couple a year.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I would like for somebody to

perhaps help me with the Firearms and Securities Services. It appears, in

looking at the Estimates, that it is relatively new. We are dealing with the

Firearms Control Program. I have to admit I'm not familiar with this, and I

wonder if somebody could just educate me. Because obviously we are talking about

a significant increase in terms of budgetary costs. It is relatively new and

maybe if -

MR. McLEAN: Okay, I will generalize. We have a

division that has taken on the responsibility of administering the new Canadian

Gun Control Act. With all of the expenditures that are incurred under this

particular division there is an in-and-out cost. The federal government is

providing us with all of the funds (inaudible) here.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: One hundred per cent?

MR. McLEAN: It is 100 per cent cost recovery.

What we have is a division that the director - I think Buck is the director - is

going throughout the Province now to hire individuals who will deal with the

administration of this particular act in gun registration, gun training and

firearms acquisition (inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: So it is 100 per cent funded

by the federal government but 100 per cent administered by the provincial

government.

MR. McLEAN: That is right, yes. I think this is

a two-year program of transition to get all of this done before this division

loses any of this funding. I think it is a two-year funding program, started

October 1, 1998, and it will be completed in the year 2003 when all guns must be

registered. It is a four-year transition instead of a two year. All of this will

be paid for by the federal government, an in-and-out cost. We are totally

responsible for the administration.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is an unusual situation, I

find, when we talk about Residential Tenancies and the rights of landlords and

tenants. I recall from my own days of private practice when landlords would say:

There is no sense going to the Residential Tenancies Board because they are all

for the tenants, and tenants would say: Forget the Residential Tenancies Board

because they favour the landlords. There was always that sort of notion that one

got in terms of, I suppose, the satisfaction level of individuals before

Residential Tenancies Boards.

I am wondering within the Estimates, the membership

of these boards, are they reflected here in the breakdown of the Estimates under

Residential Tenancies?

MR. McLEAN: No. As of November 1, 1997 we wiped

out all the boards.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Completely.

MR. McLEAN: Completely.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: What would have happened, for

example, with matters that had not been concluded? Was there a provision

allowing a continuation to continue to at least its conclusion in the

outstanding matters?

MR. McLEAN: I would suspect there were. Winston

is nodding his head, so yes there were and there are.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I wonder if you could just

explain that to me somewhat.

MR. MORRIS: We changed the administration of

the Residential Tenancies Act and handling disputes as the minister said as of

November 1, 1997. Obviously, part of that time there were a number of cases

which had started before that date with the boards, and the boards did clue up

those cases to within - normally they do not take that long to finish, they are

not lengthy court cases type of thing. Within a few weeks usually the decision

is made, a report written up and it is submitted to the court. The boards are no

longer involved at all at this stage of the game.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: There are no outstanding

matters now.

MR. MORRIS: No. Because under the old system

tenants had to pay $60 to go down to court and file a complaint, as you probably

know. That created a lot of concern amongst tenants in particular. If they were

only going after a small security deposit, say of $200, they had to go down and

pay $60 and so on. When they became aware that we were changing the system,

because we let them know when they did come in, a lot of them deferred making a

complaint until after November 1, so they did not have to pay a fee. Because as

of November 1 a fee no longer has to be paid for amounts up to the security

deposit. Any larger amounts, the fee is only $20 as opposed to $60, what it used

to be. I guess for the period September to November 1 there were not a lot of

complaints registered anyway. Those that were there were clued up shortly after

November 1.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Is the role of the office, I

guess, essentially now advisory?

MR. MORRIS: No, it is both. We have in fact

divided our staff into two groups. One would be what you would call advisory, if

someone comes in and has an inquiry because they have some problem with the

landlord or the landlord had a problem with their tenant. Then we had to

separate two more staff who actually handled the hearings. We actually do the

hearings now, and they are arbitrators if you like. They still try to resolve it

without a formal hearing, but if a formal hearing is required our staff actually

conducts the hearing. It is less intimidating, it is in a smaller room, there is

only one person who does the hearing instead of three and it has more

consistency with the application too. We found with the boards, where there were

so many board members and rotating and that, there was some inconsistency in

decisions and what not. It is working out quite well. There are a lot more

complaints we are finding than there used to be being registered because of the

fees.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Is there a right of appeal

then from that decision?

MR. MORRIS: The right of appeal is to the

court.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: To the Trial Division I

(inaudible).

MR. MORRIS: The Trail Division of the court,

yes, that is correct.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Ottenheimer. Mr. Sparrow.

MR. SPARROW: No questions at this time.

CHAIR: Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to get back to the Information Technology.

There was a comment made - I am not sure who made the comment - with respect to

the geomatics: 50 per cent of the money in Information Technology is spent on

geomatics. I know the department is pretty far reaching and it covers a lot of

different areas.

If you are talking geomatics, the deputy minister,

Ms Knight, mentioned putting a system in place for tracking motor vehicle

registration and what have you, and I can understand that, but with respect to

the geographic information systems that are being put in place at the Howley

Building on Higgins Line with respect to the digitizing of the mapping, what is

actually being done at this point in time with respect to the mapping? Are only

the maps being digitized? Because if you look at a true geographic information

system, the information that could be available under such a system - you have

to have the maps done first, of course, and then you have the various layouts of

different information; you have the roads, you have the topographic trees, you

have hydrants, you could have pole lines, all different layers type of thing -

how far are you planning on going with that, and how long is it going to take

before you get a true geographic information system in place?

MR. BARFOOT: The process will be a

comprehensive process. We have virtually completed the entire land use atlas at

this point in time. We probably have another 5 per cent to be digitized. We are

in the process of converting all the maps that municipal affairs have into a

digitized format, so we are working on getting 100 per cent coverage of the

Province in a digitized format. We then plan to set up our regional offices with

proper computerized systems so that all the information is put out into each of

our regional offices and the information in Corner Brook will be the same

information that is available over at the Howley Building. That would permit our

staff to make pretty well instantaneous decisions for a client who is coming in

to visit the counter out in Corner Brook, and whether there is a possibility

that an application may run into problems because of land use conflicts and all

that sort of stuff. All that will be on a computerized network.

MR. J. BYRNE: All this work is being done

in-house, is it not?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: There is none of it being put out

to private industry at all, the digitizing?

MR. BARFOOT: We did at the end of the year, at

the beginning of March, enter into a small contract through NIS for $40,000 for

a company to digitize the maps that municipal affairs have.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, the maps at municipal

affairs and the maps at the Howley Building are two different things, because

the maps at municipal affairs deal with zoning, mostly, of all the

municipalities.

MR. BARFOOT: Yes, but we are doing all of that

as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

You said you entered into a small contract with

NIS. There was a comment made also that the database for the system is being

handled by NIS. I would imagine the database for the tracking of the motor

registration, that type of thing, with respect to the geomatics for that, is

what you are referring to; but if I am not mistaken, NIS, Newfoundland

Information Systems Limited I think it is called, is owned largely by Newtel,

Sigma and Andersen, and a number of the local companies in and around St. John's

that will be involved with computers, this type of work, are large in part owned

by Newtel. My concern here is, the work that would be put out by NIS would be

put out to their own companies. They are charging government to manage the

system, putting work out to their own companies to do the system. Any comments

on that?

MR. BARFOOT: Well, I think in this particular

case it is not a Newtel company that did this digitization for us.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is it a local company?

MR. BARFOOT: It is a local company, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Which one?

MR. BARFOOT: I don't recall the name now. It is

a local company that has done mapping for the Province.

MR. J. BYRNE: Digitizing. It would not be

Geodata?

MR. BARFOOT: I am not sure. I can get the

answer to that.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. BARFOOT: But on the whole issue of

Information Technology, if you look at the Information Technology budget, about

60 per cent of that Information Technology budget is wrapped up in the Motor

Vehicle Registration Branch, the (inaudible). It was not 50 per cent for

geomatics.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is not?

MR. BARFOOT: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: Because that was the comment that

was made. That is interesting.

I will go back to the Estimates now.

MR. McLEAN: Some of the outside work too, Jack,

like aerial photography, that we had to get done, was all contracted. It was not

done in-house.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you get into aerial

photography, which is used to make the maps, the maps that are existing over

there now, the 1:2500 base maps and the 1:5000 and what have you, the

topographic maps, a lot of those are available to be digitized and I know there

are companies around that do that type of work both in and outside the Province.

MR. McLEAN: Some of the mapping we had was 1972

photography. We needed to upgrade to present times, so we did some more flying.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much money was in the budget

for aerial photography for the Province for this year?

MR. McLEAN: (Inaudible) doing any this year. We

had a lot of it done last year, in the last few years. We had Labrador done in

two seasons, that sort of thing.

MR. J. BYRNE: The whole of Labrador?

MR. McLEAN: I think it was two seasons, the

majority of that was flown, especially Costal Labrador, but those were the

oldest maps. They were the old 1972 photography. The interior has been flown

relatively recently because of the hype in the exploration.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much money did that cost, to

do Labrador in two seasons?

MR. McLEAN: We did that with the Labrador

Agreement funding. I think it cost around close to $250,000.

MR. BARFOOT: I think the minister is just

referring to the costal communities, (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

MR. McLEAN: It was around $250,000 to do that,

I know, because in those days I was administering the Labrador Agreement.

MR. J. BYRNE: If you are having the Province

done, and new aerial photography done to produce new maps, what kind of money

are you putting in place and what scale of maps are we talking about doing?

Because the larger the scale the more photography you need. How much money are

we talking about here?

MR. McLEAN: Generally, when you are going to do

aerial photography, you will take a grid and get a contract to do a certain

amount of aerial photography. Then you bring all those back and do the mapping.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much?

MR. McLEAN: I am not sure what grids we used,

but there were a fair amount.

MR. BARFOOT: We are talking about $5 million to

update the maps we presently have, and to complete what we do not have done.

MR. J. BYRNE: To update to what period of time?

MR. BARFOOT: That will give us 100 per cent

coverage of the Island and of the Labrador portion. That could take a

considerable amount of time because there is not a lot of money put into aerial

flying on an annual basis.

We are in the process of working with the private

sector in developing a geomatic strategy where we would hope we would be able to

develop partnerships between the various government departments and the private

sector companies that require maps, to try to accelerate this type of activity.

Just to give you an example, we had a request from

the Town of Happy Valley - Goose Bay last summer for new mapping for that town,

because of the activity that is going on there. We were able to attract eight

different partners to help fund that mapping project.

MR. J. BYRNE: Take, for example, if they were

going to put in a geomatic system to cover St. John's, Corner Brook, Gander;

people like Newfoundland Power, Newfoundland Telephone, different -

MR. BARFOOT: The RCMP -

MR. McLEAN: All the utilities.

MR. BARFOOT: We are working on that and we are

trying to accelerate that.

MR. J. BYRNE: To put a popular system in place,

the first thing you have to have is the up-to-date mapping.

MR. BARFOOT: Yes. We have actually done the

entire Southern Shore in conjunction and partnership with Newfoundland Telephone

and Hydro.

MR. J. BYRNE: While I am on that, because it

was a number of years ago - probably five or six years ago - I know Newfoundland

Telephone was talking to the director of surveying at the Howley Building, to

put something together and it did not work out very well. What happened there?

MR. BARFOOT: I do not know, that was before my

time.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is there anything ongoing with

them now?

MR. McLEAN: Was that back when you were working

there?

MR. J. BYRNE: No, just after I left it fell

apart.

MR. BARFOOT: We did do a partnership with

Newfoundland Telephone the summer before last.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, let's get back to the

Estimates here now.

CHAIR: You have a minute.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have a minute?

Page 45, Residential Tenancies,

section 2.1.03.04,

Supplies were $9,500 and it is up to $17,000. Why the difference of almost

double this year? What kind of supplies are we talking about?

MR. McLEAN: I think that is basically due to

the fact that we had to get new copies of the Residential Tenancies Act because

of the changes. Actually, we do them up and we sell them to the clients who want

to (inaudible). That is just the cost of doing business with the Queen's

Printer.

MR. J. BYRNE: The next line, Professional

Services, you put in $42,900. It was not even budgeted and it's not budgeted

this year. What would that be for?

MR. McLEAN: We had to cover the residential

tenancies boards for six months before we disbanded them in late fall.

MR. J. BYRNE: What do you mean you had to cover

them?

MR. McLEAN: They were in existence for the

first six months of the year.

MR. J. BYRNE: But you didn't have anything

budgeted for it.

MR. McLEAN: We anticipated that they were going

to be not necessary, but we had to cover them for the first six months of the

year. That is where this expenditure came in, $42,900.

MR. J. BYRNE: So what you are telling me is you

thought they would be disbanded -

MR. McLEAN: There are no boards now.

MR. J. BYRNE: - before the beginning of the

year?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, from the beginning of the

year, from April 1 to September 30, I guess, or thereabouts, is when we

disbanded the boards. There are no boards now any more. We use the residential

tenancies officer.

MR. J. BYRNE: Basically, why there was no money

budgeted is because they thought it would be disbanded before the beginning of

the year.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, that's right.

MR. J. BYRNE: On page 45, Insurance and

Pensions, 2.1.04.05, Professional Services, $86,000 budgeted. It went up to

$106,000 and back down to $86,000 this year, so that is $20,000 over and above.

Why $20,000 over and above, and what were the professional services?

MR. McLEAN: That is the $106,000?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: There was $26,000 to cover the

Province's share of a study into harmonization of insurance regulations in

Atlantic Canada, the Atlantic Canada harmonization process. All the other

provinces contributed to this particular study and our contribution to it was

$26,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: On page 46, Commercial

Registrations, 2.1.05.03, Transportation and Communications. There was $92,600

budgeted, $68,600 spent and $92,600 budgeted again. Do you want to make a

comment on that?

MR. McLEAN: That is the reduction?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, and back up again. You see I

have a problem with this.

MR. McLEAN: There was a reduction in postage

costs. Basically, that is where the reduction was.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. McLEAN: In the cost of postage.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that right? Very good.

MR. McLEAN: It varies from year to year

depending on how much correspondence we move around.

MR. J. BYRNE: Section. 06, the same subhead,

Purchased Services. It was $16,000, went up to $40,000, and down to $18,000. Why

so much, and what services? Why a big difference?

MR. McLEAN: I will let Wins will answer that.

This is a little more technical.

MR. MORRIS: The Purchased Services section,

that increase from $16,000 to $40,000, that was for renovations to the

commercial registries, mainly for a new filing system we have there. The

companies' registry was very much overcrowded and we had these old five-drawer

filing cabinets which were full. You could not put any more in the room. We had

files piled on top of those, so we purchased a new filing system which

quadrupled the filing space in the same room. That is what the extra expenditure

was for.

MR. J. BYRNE: Number 12 there, Information

Technology, $230,000. You spent $201,000, and now it's down to $102,000. We had

enough talk on information technology, I think.

MR. McLEAN: This was basically for the personal

property security system, which is another responsibility we have in the

department.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Byrne.

Mr. Oldford.

MR. OLDFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Minister, I have a few questions to ask on the Government Service centre in

Clarenville.

MR. McLEAN: What page is that?

MR. OLDFORD: It's not listed. It's buried in

the Estimates. I am still getting some complaints about the Crown Lands

division. We are still just taking applications in Clarenville. We send them in

to St. John's, then the referrals are sent back out to Clarenville. Of course

you have to wait until they come back in. I am still getting complaints from

people who say it takes far too long to get these applications approved. Is

there any plan to upgrade that system or to make changes in Clarenville to speed

up the process?

MR. McLEAN: You want me to tell you when? I

will let Wilson answer that, because we have been working with the Clarenville

situation for quite a number of months now trying to bring it up to speed.

MR. BARFOOT: Currently we are in the process of

putting a second body out in the Crown Lands office in Clarenville. We are also

in the process of reviewing all of our systems within the Lands branch itself.

There may be a possibility of redirecting some more of our staff from the

eastern region office located here in St. John's out to Clarenville. We hope a

lot of the problems will be resolved once we get the GIS system up and running.

We do have the technology installed in Clarenville, so now it is a matter of

time to get the digitized products on line. I would think by September we would

have a better Crown Lands service at the Clarenville office.

MR. OLDFORD: The other question relates to the

Motor Vehicle Registration. The complaints I am getting there is that during the

lunch time period, and when it is busy at certain times during the month, people

have to wait long periods of time. If you only have an half an hour off for

lunch and it takes you forty-five minutes to get an application processed - and

that is no reflection on the staff because they are good staff, and I know most

of them personally. There seems to be a lack of staff, especially with counter

service. I am wondering is there going to be any move made to correct that

situation?

MR. DWYER: We are reviewing the number of

transactions that are taking place and when they take place, not only in that

office, but all of our MRD offices. What has been happening is we placed in the

MRD service full service, I think it was about a year ago or a little less than

a year ago. There is a learning curve with new staff, and you can see the number

of transactions that they were taking per staff member when they started out,

whereas now they have gone up about 50 per cent.

As we monitor the transactions, the peaks and the

valleys, we will address that. What we have done in some other places where we

do get peaks and valleys, especially during lunch periods, where it is not a

large office like Clarenville, we do have the opportunity to call staff back for

part-time days, half days and that. We do something very similar up in Labrador

City in that situation. We will monitor the situation. It is an opportunity

there if we have to use it, that way.

MR. OLDFORD: Good, thank you. The other

question I was -

MR. McLEAN: Doug, what is your perception from

your perspective as a customer out there? What do you perceive as the problem?

Is it more staff to take care of it or -

MR. OLDFORD: Even as Mr. Dwyer suggested,

part-time staff or whatever might be a solution to it. The other aggravation

that people have is with this thing where you apply to Crown Land for a cabin

lot. Once you have paid your application fee - I do not know what it is, $100

now? - if your application is not approved, you don't get your money back. I

don't know if the staff knows that it's eventually going to be turned down

anyway, because other applications have been turned down before. People have

complained to me: If somebody had told me that was a sensitive calving area for

caribou then I would not have applied. I get these complaints from time to time:

Somebody in the office should have told me and then I would not have lost my

$100.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, that is one of the areas where

we do have some concern, and that is the cross between the GSC staff and the

actual Lands staff themselves. There are some cross-ups there at times. I think,

Wilson, we have been dealing with a fair number of those cases where

applications are accepted when they should not have been accepted. That is where

we get most of the complaints and people want to get their money back and that

sort of thing. Those are some of the problems. We have been dealing with that

and trying to figure out the most appropriate way to handle that kind of a

problem. We will get it worked out eventually, although some people are going to

(inaudible).

MR. OLDFORD: I know there were some

applications accepted for the end of Random Island, and even people in the

office did not know that there was some rare form of lichen down there growing

on a tree or something. We have to protect it. They were not supposed to be

taking applications, and of course it upset a lot of people.

MR. BARFOOT: (Inaudible). Once we get the land

use atlas on line that should handle a lot of those problems out there in rural

Newfoundland.

MR. McLEAN: The mapping is the big thing

(inaudible).

MR. OLDFORD: I think that is basically it. The

other comment I wanted to make, and I do not know how you would deal with this,

but there are large tracts of land around the Province that have been designated

as agricultural land, and so they split it up into 45 acre lots, or hectares I

think they call it now. Yet every person who applies within that agricultural

zone has to go through the same process, same referrals, in order to acquire

land. I would have thought that once it was zoned agriculture you would not have

to go back to the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods with a referral.

That seems to be the process we go through every time about every application.

MR. BARFOOT: Yes, I would think that is a

requirement from Agrifoods to look at the business plan or whatever plan

(inaudible).

MR. OLDFORD: This is just for the land approval

alone, right?

MR. BARFOOT: Just for land approval alone, yes.

MR. OLDFORD: I would have thought that once it

was zoned agriculture then it would be suitable for agriculture and we would not

have to go through that.

MR. McLEAN: That is something we can take a

look at, Wilson. Perhaps there is a way we can speed up that process.

MR. OLDFORD: In a lot of cases the problem is

not your department. It is some other department, but you fellows get the blame

because you are providing the counter service.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, that's right, exactly.

MR. BARFOOT: We are only a facilitator

(inaudible). An application comes in and it is referred out to -

MR. McLEAN: It would be in our interest too to

see that the process is (inaudible) more efficient. If we are going to be the

front-line, if we are going to take the crap for it anyway, we might as well try

to figure out how we can do it better. Have other departments come on line and

do it better.

MR. OLDFORD: Sure. Other than that, things are

working fairly well in the office in Clarenville, but (inaudible).

MR. McLEAN: You don't want us to close it down.

AN HON. MEMBER: Normally what we used to do in

the past was close it down a few months before an election. Do you want us to do

that?

MR. OLDFORD: Anyway, thanks. Those are all the

questions I have.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Oldford. Maybe we should

take a ten or fifteen minute break. No? Okay, Mr. Ottenheimer.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Under Government Services, in

particular Permitting and Inspection Services, and then more specifically

Support Services, page 48. What is the nature of the $1.2 million expenditure

under Purchased Services? That is 3.2.01.06?

MR. McLEAN: You are on page 48?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: 3.2.1.01.08?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Purchased Services, .06.

MR. McLEAN: The savings or the change?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: The actual Estimates for

1998-1999.

MR. McLEAN: We handed back funds in this

particular

section for the use because we did not continue with the

privatization of the driver examiners. We also transferred funds back into

promotional activities.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I'm sorry, I don't understand,

Mr. Minister. Are you looking at the right one under Purchased Services, under

Support Services?

MR. McLEAN: Number 6, Purchased Services?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: The note I have here is that we

have added money back because we did not continue with the privatization of the

driver examiners. We had to add some money back because we did not get the full

savings that we anticipated at the beginning of the year by privatizing, because

we did not privatize.

MR. DWYER: Last year we took all of the office

rentals and leases and put them all in one particular account centre, whether

they were for MRD, Government Services, or whether they were with the Lands

branch. Last year, with the privatization initiative of the driver examinations,

there were x number of dollars associated with the privatization because a lot

of the places we were leasing. Therefore, they did not show up in the 1997-1998

budget, so when it went back in this year's Estimates it would have raised that

figure back up further.

The other thing that increased that figure was that

promotional services, and different things like that, where we would get out to

trade shows and basically let people know what we do, where they can obtain

services and different things, were scattered through various account centres

within the GSC, and that was taken and consolidated all in one place.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Where is the department now

generally with respect to privatization of its various registries? Is there any

assessment being made at the present time, for example, the registry of deeds or

the registry (inaudible)?

MR. McLEAN: To privatize?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

MR. McLEAN: No, there is no move to privatize.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Has the department undertaken

any investigation as to the possibility of privatization of registries as we now

know them?

MR. McLEAN: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: Any questions? Do you want to go

on or will I?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, I will appoint myself.

WITNESS: I do not know if you can do that, can

you? Can you do that?

MR. J. BYRNE: Just a question in response to a

comment made with respect to Crown land applications, $115. Have they gone up

recently?

MR. DWYER: As far as I know, no.

MR. J. BYRNE: So it is $100 plus the 15 per

cent, which is $115.

MR. DWYER: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I was just wondering if it had

gone up again.

MR. McLEAN: No, not yet.

MR. J. BYRNE: Not yet.

WITNESS: We have not had any fee increases in

the department this year yet.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to a question I

asked in the House of Assembly yesterday with resect to truckers, and the

carrier plates that were dropped two years ago, I asked if there had been any

analysis done on that. The problem I had with it was the fact that the large

construction companies - I don't know if it came out yesterday with respect to

the question - are bidding on work, citing the old regulations whereby they had

to pay independent truckers a certain amount of money, which was something like

$57 an hour. Now I have been told by a couple of different individuals that they

are bidding on the work, getting it, and paying about 60 per cent of that rate,

probably $35 per hour. The problem I have with it is that independent truckers

have to pay licences, insurances, fuel and what have you, and they just cannot

exist on it.

My question to the minister is: Why was this

brought in in the first place? Why was it deregulated? Who benefitted from this?

It certainly was not independent truckers. It seems to me that it is just - and

these people are being basically forced off the road. Do you want to comment on

that?

MR. McLEAN: I think it is a Works, Services and

Transportation issue, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: I asked the question to the

minister yesterday and he said you should answer it. Now you are telling me he

should answer it.

MR. McLEAN: I checked it out afterwards.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought so.

MR. McLEAN: It is a Works, Services and

Transportation issue. Actually the whole permitting thing, I think, was done

through the PUB back in 1994, or something like that.

MR. J. BYRNE: In 1996.

MR. McLEAN: It was done way back, we found out

after I went and checked yesterday.

MR. J. BYRNE: Because when I asked the Minister

of Works, Services and Transportation, he said you should answer it and I though

he was wrong. Okay, we will let that one slide.

Under Support Services 3.2.01 - we are after

skipping a line, I will finish it anyway.

MR. McLEAN: What page is that?

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 48,

section 3.2.01.07,

Property, Furnishings and Equipment, $43,700 up to $63,700 spent, and it is back

to $43,700 this year. What were those purchases for, and why did it have to be

bumped by $20,000?

MR. McLEAN: We purchased furniture for the new

office in Conception Bay North, the Harbour Grace office (inaudible) centre.

MR. J. BYRNE: Wouldn't you think, when you are

doing a budget each year, that you would allow for any new offices to be opened

up? You would think that would come out of the $43,700, would you not?

MR. McLEAN: Well, I guess from year to year it

changes. When we decided to go with the Harbour Grace/Carbonear office, it was

part of the way through the year and we were able to get it done quicker than we

thought we were going to do it in the first place. That is just fluctuation from

year to year. That is an in-and-out, one-time cost for the furniture.

MR. J. BYRNE: On page 47, Administration,

3.1.01.03, Transportation and Communications had budgeted $382,300. It went up

to $443,300. I do not expect you to have the answers here but I just wanted to

put it on the record. Maybe it can be -

MR. McLEAN: What page is that?

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 47, 3.1.01, Transportation

and Communications. Your department spent $443,300 last year. I do not expect

you to have the answers here now, but if someone would note what I am going to

ask and maybe supply the answers.

With respect to that subhead, how much of this

appropriation was for travel - Transportation and Communication? How many trips

were taken? What was the destination of each trip? Who travelled, and for what

purposes? And can the minister provide an itemized list of the expenses incurred

on each trip?

CHAIR: Could you submit the list that you have

made there?

MR. J. BYRNE: I just asked them; they are

making notes. Did you get all of that or did I do it too quickly?

MR. McLEAN: You are looking at Transportation

and Communications. You want to know what trips were taken.

MR. J. BYRNE: If there were trips taken - I am

not sure - how much of this appropriation was for travel? How many trips were

taken? What was the destination of each trip? Who travelled, and for what

purposes? And an itemized list of the expenses incurred on each trip.

MR. McLEAN: Mike can answer some of that. I do

not know about all of it.

MR. DWYER: We can get whatever detailed

information you require, if you need it, but most of that, if not the vast

majority of it, is for postage. That is MRD with mail-outs and mailings with

motor vehicle registration.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under Transportation and

Communications.

MR. DWYER: Transportation and Communications.

There are not a lot of bodies in administration, as you can see. There are not a

lot of bodies and there is not a large amount of travel.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, forget the question then.

With respect to driver examination and vehicle

inspection -

CHAIR: Stricken from the record.

MR. J. BYRNE: Stricken.

Under 3.1.02.01, Salaries had budgeted $1,319,500,

spent $1,491,200 up to $1,689,000. Does that have anything to do with retaining

the driver examination (inaudible)?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, it does.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, Transportation and

Communications: $81,900 up to $113,400. Not stamps again, I hope.

MR. DWYER: The same thing. The decrease and

increase is due to the driver examination, the inspectors and the people who

would be travelling. It is in proportion to the numbers of people who would not

have been there.

MR. J. BYRNE: Property, Furnishings and

Equipment: $1,600 up to $65,600. Can you explain that one? That is

section 07.

MR. McLEAN: That is the purchase of new

vehicles.

MR. J. BYRNE: What? Eight hundred and

sixty-nine vehicles and you had to purchase two more? How many more?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, but you have to remember that

we purchase vehicles all throughout the Province for the GSC centres and for

Crown Lands. Those are new vehicles. I have a list here of the years of the

vehicles that we had. If you want, I can start reading them off to you.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, that is fine.

MR. McLEAN: Some of the vehicles are pretty old

and we had to replace them after so long a time because they were not safe for

the highway, and we look after highway safety.

MR. J. BYRNE: I asked the Minister of Works,

Services and Transportation some questions on vehicles the other day. I am

laughing at something happening on this side, not over there.

Page 47, Licence and Registration Processing,

3.1.03.04. Supplies: $266,400 down to $159,000 back up to $266,400 this year.

What would be the supplies there?

MR. McLEAN: Some of it is for licence plates;

some of it is for Information Technology; and some of it is also for furniture

and equipment.

MR. J. BYRNE: You mentioned licence plates. Do

we still have plates made here?

MR. McLEAN: I do not know. Where were the last

ones made?

MR. DWYER: They go to tender. I think the last

time they were from B.C.; that was the lowest tender.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do we have anyone in Newfoundland

and Labrador who can make those plates?

MR. DWYER: I am not sure.

MR. McLEAN: They have an opportunity to bid on

it.

WITNESS: One company in my district.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yours?

WITNESS: In my district.

MR. McLEAN: They do have an opportunity to bid

on it. It is not only a bid that is put outside of the Province.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under 3.1.03.07, Property,

Furnishings and Equipment: $2,000 up to $12,200. Why the difference there? What

was it for?

MR. McLEAN: It was to replace two fax machines

and also some new furniture and equipment related to the office.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. On page 48, Support

Services, 3.2.01.07 - I don't know if I hit that already - $43,700 up to

$63,700.

MR. McLEAN: You asked that just now.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought I did. That is where I

jumped ahead of myself.

The next page, 49, Regional Services, Employee

Benefits, 3.2.02.02: $11,800 budgeted, $27,800 spent. Why would that be?

MR. McLEAN: There is an increase in workers'

compensation costs.

MR. J. BYRNE: That much? Why?

MR. DWYER: That reflects one person in

particular with a repetitive strain injury.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. DWYER: It reflects one person who would be

off on workers' compensation due to a repetitive strain injury, possibly. The

difference of $16,000 would be, for example, a Clerk II.

MR. J. BYRNE: Was that money you had paid to

the person injured or to hire someone in his place? What are we talking about?

MR. DWYER: It would have been to pay the person

injured, to a certain extent. That is what that would have been, to pay the

person injured.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought workers' compensation

would pay those people.

MR. DWYER: Government is self-insured. I

believe we would have paid that out of that particular subhead for

self-insurers.

MR. CURTIS: A lot of these costs are for

anybody who needs drugs or needs some other services. Rather than their

salaries, it would be charged off to this employee benefits account. If somebody

needs drugs or some kind of equipment to relieve their injury or relieve their

suffering, it gets charged off against this. So it's in addition to the

salaries, the other costs associated with the injury.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Supplies, .04,

$112,000 down to $81,900, back up to $111,000. What supplies would that be?

MR. McLEAN: I think that was something to do

with the idea that we were going to purchase a vehicle and we did not do it, or

something like that. Was that the case? We did not have to purchase the vehicles

that we anticipated.

MS KNIGHT: It was replacement parts for

vehicles less due to the purchase of new vehicles. It is difficult to predict on

a yearly basis what those replacement costs would be. They were less that year

because we had purchased some new vehicles. Whether that is a continuing trend

or not, we will have to see how things go this year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Under .06, Purchased

Services, $112,300 budgeted and $40,800 spent, back up to $95,500. Can anybody

explain that?

MS KNIGHT: The explanation there is much the

same as the one I just gave you. Again, the vehicle repair costs were down

because we were able to purchase five new vehicles at the end of the previous

year. Again, while we have much the same amount in there, it is difficult to

predict what our repair costs are going to be.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mostly that $112,000 budgeted

would have been for vehicle repair and maintenance.

MS KNIGHT: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Property, Furnishings and

Equipment, .07, $36,700 up to $74,700, doubled, and back down to $36,900.

MS KNIGHT: We purchased two new replacement

vehicles, and the funds were transferred into that vote from savings that we

achieved elsewhere within the department.

MR. McLEAN: Those are regional services we are

talking about there. All the service centres throughout the Province have

vehicles.

MR. J. BYRNE: Because to me it is like you are

buying vehicles in two different places here.

MR. McLEAN: Yes, there are. There are probably

four or five different places we are buying vehicles (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Why wouldn't it just be all under

the one heading?

MR. McLEAN: Some under Lands and some under

Government Service Centres.

MR. J. BYRNE: I know. You have vehicles bought

under Supplies and you have vehicles bought under Property, Furnishings and

Equipment. Why wouldn't you have all the vehicles bought under Property,

Furnishings and Equipment?

MR. DWYER: The vehicles are bought out of the

.07 seven account centres and the repairs are out of the .04 and the .06. The

difference between those two account centres is the .04 account centre is for

parts.

If we get the work done through Works, Services and

Transportation we do not pay the labour cost, we just pay the parts cost. When

we bring it into the Department of Works, Services and Transportation and they

are unable to do the repairs because of their own workload, or if we require it,

for argument's sake, in a week's time and they can't do it for three weeks, they

will actually put it out to a garage somewhere and get it done. Repairs are

being done in two places: one is for parts, and the other one is for parts and

labour.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good, thank you. Vital

Statistics Registry, 3.3.01.06, Purchased Services. You had $10,000 up to

$18,600, and down to $10,000.

MR. McLEAN: It is an increase in printing

costs.

MR. J. BYRNE: Printing. Does that printing go

out to tender, by the way, any of this stuff, the printing services for

something like that?

MR. McLEAN: Does it go out to tender or is it

done at the Queen's Printer?

MR. DWYER: It has to go out to tender, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: It would have to, wouldn't it?

Information Technology, forget that. We are almost to the end. Does anybody else

want to ask any questions?

Under Crown Land, page 50, in Salaries, 4.1.01.01,

you have $2,040,800 budgeted, $1,841,200 spent, and it is up to $1,987,100 this

year. Can you explain that?

MR. McLEAN: I will get Wilson to explain that.

MR. BARFOOT: During 1997-1998 we had two vacant

positions that we did not fill and we had three employees who went off on leave

without pay. That is the major reason for the decrease. The increase this year

is primarily associated with the 2 per cent wage increase.

MR. J. BYRNE: Subsection .04, Supplies. You had

$125,600 budgeted, $84,600 spent, up to $125,600 again this year. What would be

the supplies?

MR. BARFOOT: One hundred and twenty-five

thousand dollars is a normal purchase price for maps and things from the federal

government.

MR. J. BYRNE: From the federal government, yes.

MR. BARFOOT: We did not purchase as many maps

this year because of our inventory on hand.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Subsection 12, Information Technology. You had

$12,000 budgeted, you spent $65,000, and it's down to $21,000. Is that the extra

money now we are paying NISL for calculations?

MR. BARFOOT: No, that was an actual increase in

our budget to buy the new computers for our regional office set-ups. That was a

one-time purchase to bring the regional offices on line to be able to handle the

GIS.

MR. J. BYRNE: Land Management, 4.1.02.05,

Professional Services, no money budgeted. You spent $100,000 and this year you

have budgeted $45,000. What was that for now?

MR. BARFOOT: That was basically for the

assessment services. When we went to market a value pricing policy two years

ago, we retained the services of the municipal assessment agency to do our

property appraisals. So in 1997-1998 there were a fairly significant number of

appraisals that had to be done because of market value pricing policy.

MR. J. BYRNE: Can I just butt in for a second

here? I am not sure, when you say you had to do so many assessments for Crown

lands?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: You had municipal affairs do

assessments for Crown lands?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: That was for converting from the

leases to the grants?

MR. BARFOOT: To the grants, yes. The reason for

the decrease this year is that we -

MR. J. BYRNE: Numbers.

MR. BARFOOT: Just the level of activity. We

also have our own appraiser on staff now. That money is not additional money.

That money was actually transferred from the Crown Land division down into grant

management.

MR. J. BYRNE: You have Information Technology,

$30,800 down to $20,800 and this year you have $4,000. Anything on that?

MR. BARFOOT: The expenditure decrease this year

was associated with less of a need to buy computer hardware. This year's amount

is just enough to cover our (inaudible) licences, so we don't have any -

MR. McLEAN: Some of that was for (inaudible)

training.

MR. J. BYRNE: For what?

MR. McLEAN: Training. There was less training

(inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

On page 52, Land Management, you have nothing

budgeted for 4.1.05, sections 03, 04, and 06. Transportation and Communications:

nothing budgeted, you put in $15,000. Supplies: nothing budgeted, $2,000.

Purchased Services: you had in $267,000, spent $82,000 and $300,000 in this

year. Can somebody explain that to me, what is going on?

MR. BARFOOT: Under program review we committed

to government to accelerate our land development program and we were authorized

to hire a number of new staff on a temporary basis to help us with that program.

So this would be the transportation, travel costs, associated with people going

out in the field, identifying potential development areas and so on and so

forth.

Under Purchased Services, the reason for the

decline is that the positions we were approved for, we anticipated we were going

to have people in place last April. We were unable to get them in place until

actually January of this past year.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, are you saying Purchased

Services is for staffing?

MR. BARFOOT: Yes, contractual.

MR. J. BYRNE: That's it for me. Thank you.

CHAIR: Any more questions?

Okay, I will ask the Clerk to call the heads.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.05, carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services and

Lands, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: One other thing, the minutes of the last

meeting, moved by Mr. Oldford.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I want to thank you, Minister, and your

staff, for appearing. You certainly did a good job and we look forward to

probably seeing you again after the election.

Could we have a motion to adjourn?

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chair, just before you make the

motion, I want to thank the Committee members for asking these questions. Any

time you get questions throughout the coming year, don't hesitate to ask.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Yes, go ahead.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) the problem usually,

in the House, but thank you for your time.

CHAIR: Well, the Chair certainly recognizes

that the questions were answered. In fact, the list of questions was withdrawn

because you were so competent in your answers.

We have had the motion to adjourn.

Thank you very much.

On motion, Committee adjourned.