VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GEN~RI\L ASSEl'ffiLY OF NTI'!FOUNDIJl..ND PRELIMINARY UNEDI'!'ED T~NSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSE~ffiLY FOR THE PEP.IOD: 3:00 P.M. to 6:00 P.M. MOND_!!.Y, APRIL 9, 1984 'lo- . NO. 20

April 9, 1984 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape No. 789 Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower (r-ir. Dinn) . But firs·t of all, for my

preamble 1I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that Statistics Canada released their unemployment figures on Friday which show 50,000 people in this Province out of work, a staggering rate of 23.3 per cent, the highest in Canada. New Brunswick ,which is the next highest 1 is way :behind at 17.6 per centror 5.7 per cent behind us. So we are the Province in Canada with the worst unemployment record. And do not forget, Mr.

Speaker, that these figures only show those who are still looking for work and do not include those who have given up hope 1 which might :bring the figure closer to 100,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed. Now my question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower is this: What was he and his political colleagues celebrating on Saturday night, six years of a barbaric reign of terror of our people. And will the minister tell this han.

House just what his reaction is to these figures and how h.e intends, how the administration there opposite intends, to get this Province to even keep up with New ltrunswick and get our figures down to s·ome kind of a manageable level? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the han. Leader of the Opposition (.Mr. Neary). has been for 2117

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 789 SD - 2 MR. DINN: for the last twenty-three or twenty-four years. He has lonq been a member of this House of Assembly and the member sitting longest in the House, I believe . What basically th .e government has done since 1972 is, nwnber one, cleaned up the act of the former administration, the administration that operated s·ince- 1949 to 1971. And, Mr.

Speaker, we cleaned up the act such that we did not treat Newfoundlanders differently, we did not treat the people on Bell Island any differently than we treated the people in other areas , unlike the hon. member who has a book written about him. But with respect to the unemployment figures,if the han. memDe ·r 'Would read the figures very closely he ~uld see that in March over February we had 6,000 jo:Os created, we had 6,000 more johs in March over February. We have more people coming back into the labour force and at a fairly strong pace.

We intend 1when the restructuring of the fishing industry is concluded and we get our inshore fishery back this year 1 with the help of the Minister of Fisheries CMr . Morgan) with his $31 million in the offshore fishery · that we concluded an agreement on 1 with something like another $30 million that he has provided in loan guarantees, etc. 1 to fish plants and to fishermen; with . the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (~. Power L working diligently for his new ~ESP programme, where h.e indicated only last week that he would have 2118

-- ~-- - -------- ·--· ·-· --·- ------- April 9, 1984 Tape No. 790 NM - 1 MR. DINN: something like 2,600 people rncreworking this year in the forestry sector; with the Minister of Social Service (Mr. Hickey) adding some $6 million to his Social Services programme this year such that we will create someting like 4,000 to 5,000 jobs ~ we anticipate that the unemployment rate will go down. Now we do have about 7,600 jobs _in the Department of Social Services-alone. We do have a bit of a problem. We had a decision, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the 6ffshore and one :.would conclude from that, if the han. members opposite were accurate, we would conclude from that there would be a boom in the offshore because there is no question, according to the Supreme Court of Canada, as to who owns the offshore and 1therefore, if things sort of come about the way the han. members have been preaching over the past four years, we would have a boom in the offshore.

Yet we understand that Petro Canada, as an example, is not continuing on this year with their offshore Labrador exploration programme and that will take away about 600 jobs from our economy 1 so we wonder where the han. members of the Opposition and the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) stand· witl• respect to the offshore.

We would like for him to support this government with respect to the offshore so that we would be able to capitalize on and make sure that Newfoundlanders are employed offshore, and we wonder where he stands with respect to the .Local Preference Policy anyway as to whethe~ he agrees with the local preference in the offshore. And if we were to get the boom that has beer.predicted by the hon. members opposite with the conclusion of who owns the offshore 7 if we were to get that boom we would have no problem with unemployment in the Province, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: A brief answer, Mr. Speaker. 211 g

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 790 NM - 2 MR . DINN: But I can say that the ~~ster of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power), the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor), the minist~r of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie), the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) are doing all in their power, Mr. Speaker, to make sure that the unemployment goes down this year as we hope and anticipate that it will. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : a supplementary question. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, The hon. Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, we did not ask the gentleman for his old lip or sauce or a sermon, Mr. Speaker . What we asked the han. gentleman was to outline specific plans that the administration have to deal with record unemployment in this Province. It is one thing to be indifferent to the suffering, Mr.

Speaker, of people of this Province when your bravery does not affect you, as the han. the Premier illustrates so often in this Province, but let me ask the han. gentleman if he is aware that out of the figures mentioned 1practically 100,000 Newfoundlanders unemployed,that 31,000 are between the ages of 15 and 24? Could the han. gentleman indicate to the House what specific plans the administration have there opposite? Instead of the harangue about cleaning up, what they have done is shut down and closed down everything in the Province, Now what does the han. gentleman intend to do, and the administration 2120

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 790 MR. NEARY: there opposite , intend to do for these young Newfoundlanders, and middle-aged Newfoundlanders, and senior Newfounalanders who are 2121 NM - 3

April 9,1984 Tape No. 791 ah-1 MR.NEARY: unemployed, who have given up hope and have nothing but , despair ,, Mr. Speaker? What specific plans ? Ne ver mind the sermon.. Tell ,us what specific plans they have to deal with the record unemployment this coming Summer ' in this Province ~ MR.SPEAKER (Russell ): The hon. Minister of Labour and !-ian power. MR.DINN: Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. member has not gotten around to reading the Budget yet this year. We have gone through something like forty-five or fifty hours in discussing the Budget and he has got on with the same harangue he gets on with every year.

But as I say to the hon. member, if he were . perchance to read the Budget ,if he were to listen to the statements being made in the House of Assembly,he would understand that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) has through his agreement with the federal government saved the fisheries this year so that we have something like 32,000 working in the fishery this year. The Minister of Forestry (Mr. Power) has concluded an acrreement this is a government that cannot negotiate, they say - but he has concluded an agreement with the federal government for reforestation, etc., 2600 jobs there.

The Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) 1with his added $6 million this year in the Social Service's budget 1is going to create another 5,000 or 6,000 jobs. The Minister of Transportation (H x . n<n •!

e) has gone on this year with - MR.DOYLE: Thirty -five bridges. MR.DINN: _ not just the $20 million that you would normally have, Mr . Speaker, in the 2122

April 9,1984 Tape No. 791 ah-2 MR. DINN: roads programme but an additional $15 million for roads and bridges this year that will create more jobs. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) ,the same thing. We are doing what we can with the dollars that we have available to us to create as many ·jobs as we possibly can create. And, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the hon. member's comment about the tack that I have taken -with my answerr ±f he had started off his question in a reasonable and sensible manner he would have gotten a reasonable and sensible answer. And, Mr.

Speaker, the rule that I operate under in this House is that when I get a sensible question I attempt to get give a sensible answer. But when I get a harangue, as the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) led of with today 1 then he gets the same thing back. As I say to him 1there is no minister on this side that I am aware of who·has a book written about him as to how he should not operate when he is in office. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER · (Russell): The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Fisheries .arising out of a letter which I wrote him a little while ago and which I assume he has got. Could he tell the House,please, what is going to be done this year to open, or,to put it a little more strongly; when will the fish plants in the area between Blue Cove and Cook's Harbour in my district open? Now these are the small plants,as, of course ~he minister is well aware 1 which were ------- 2123

April 9, 1984 Tape 792 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: formerly operated in some cases by the Hardy Company at Port aux Basques, which I understand has now been folded into Fishery Products International, and in some cases by the Lake Group, in one or two cases did not operate and in one or two cases were operated by a private company including, for example, White Fisheries at Sandy Cova. I know the minister is very familiar with all of these. There have been delegations in, of course, from Anchor Point. I am not sure if they saw him, they met with his officials last week and had a good reception.

Could he tell us when these plants will open, Sir? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Fisheries. MR . MORGAN: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, the interim managers of the new company, Fishery Products Internatiamil, consist of, as I mentioned some time ago, officials from the provincial · government, Mr. Clarke, the Deputy Minister of Development, heading that group from the Province, Mr. Gordon Slade from the federal department, DRIE, and Mr. Clary Bartlett from the Bank of Nova Scotia. Those three officials primarily have been the main people in­ volved.

They have done a tremendous job as interim managers in preparation for the upcoming inshore fishing season. Of course, the deep-sea plants are all open and these plants now referred to are inshore plants. I am pleased to report to the House that, as a result of the work done by the interim management team and input from this government and the federal level of government and the bank, these plants will be reopened this Spring as inshore plants. The plant at Bide Arm and the 2124

April 9, 1984 Tape 792 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: plant at Englee were owned by the Lake Group and now will be operated as part of Fishery Products International, also, Cook's Harbour, but I understand, as of today, the final plan for Cook's Harbour has not been worked out but is being worked out; but Bide Arm and Englee are definitely completed in preparation for opening as inshore plants. The plants at Anchor Point and Flower's Cove were, and indeed, are owned by the Newfoundland Government but leased and operated by T. J. Hardy's oper­ ations, which was the Nickerson combination with Mr. Hardy.

And now that the negotiations have been completed to the point of that company coming in under the Fishery Products International, as well, as part of the large company, the plans are also finalized for these plants to be reopened as inshore plants; and further to that, a little further down the Coast, the plant at Cow Head in my colleague's district - he is not in the House today - ~he plant at Cow Head will also be opened, which was earlier owned, in fact, by the company - not owned by the government but owned by the company and operated by the company two years ago, but closed last year. MR.

ROBERTS: By the Hardy Company. MR. MORGAN: By the Hardy Company. So that plant that was closed last year will indeed be operating this year as well. Mr. Speaker, I >vant to commenc" . to the House the interim management ·team. They have been doing a tremendous job, and 2125

April 9,1984 Tape 793 PK - 1 MR. MORGAN: I am confident that practically all of the deep -sea plants, of course, are operating and by the commencement of the inshore season all of the inshore plants to be owned by Fishery Products International will indeed be _. operating and supplying jobs to Newfoundlanders and markets for our fisherro~n. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The .hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir. A supplementary . and} appreciate the minister's answer. I just want to be sure that we know where we are.

Leaving aside the plants which are not owned or leased by one or more of the companies which have now been folded into the FPI umbrella, can the minister aasure • ~ t us that all of the plants now to be included in my district-- I and it is not that I am unconcerned about anywhere else, of .co~rse , I am , but I am primarily concerned with illY own area - that these - - - - ..:; _ -- . -- - plants will be operated this year? And could he also speak, Mr. Speaker, if he would, to the lenght of the season" And let us be perfect candid. about it, what counts is ten weeks.

Anchor Point_opened last year for nine weeks, and we all know, we are all ~rownups ,1 "'e do not show it all of the time 1 but we , .. are all grownups we all know what nine weeks work is worth ~ - ~ compared to ten weeks work. Could he tell us, Mr. Speaker, whether these plants will be open for at least ten weeks so that the men and women who work in them will be assured of getting enough contributions to draw unemployment against the inevitable day when they will be laid off,as they have to be because these plants,as he says 1are seasonal~ MR. SPEAKER: Th .e han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr .

Speaker, it is difficult,! guess, to be able to answer that question and say yes,definitely the plants will be open for the full ten weeks or for the full season . It will depend • The large factor, of course, will be the supply 2128

April 9, 1984 Tape 793 PK - 2 MR. MORGAN: of the raw material and the availability of the resource in the area. But I am hoping 1 as a result of the enterprise allocations to the trawler fleets 1 on the West and Northwestern . part of our Province 1 by.means of boat .. allocations or boat quotas 1the fishermen can take their time in harvesting and not be sudden~y rushing out and having to catch all they can , to try and get all they can in a short period of time. That competition among the boats is not there as a result of .the enterprise allocation system.

It will give the fishermen a longer period of tilre ito fish and ,therefore, of course, ensure more than before that most of that fish will iBdeed be processed in that area of the Pro~ince and not be,as it was last year,because there was so much caught in a short period of time, !some of it was trucked away to the East Coast and processed in plants on the ·~ ~ 1of our Province. ! So with that kind of harvesting activity 1 hopefully it will mean longer period of employment in the plants in that part of the Province by having most of the fish processed in these plants. May I comment further, Mr.

Speaker, by saying that another operator in the area of the Province the ~ember asked a question with regard to White's Fisheries, at Sandy Cove in the han .. gentleman's district, is not part of the large company. We have ~ ssisted the compa~y just recently to the tune of a $200·,000 government guarantee. ___ - That is the new government guarantee with regard to ~his year and again I do not want 2127

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 794 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: to leave the impression it is an add on,because these government guarantees are ending each financial year. We have to renew each application that comes in at the beginning of the fiscal year. MR. ROBERTS: By accepting the renewal of the existing financial arrangements. MR. MORGAN: The company has stabilized its financial position and we have been able to reduce the amount .of guarantee required. So r think it is a little less than last year. I think last year it was $300,000 and now it is down to $200,000 . But,h~wever, Mr.

Speaker, the point ·~- . .._ is that we are assistin~ through the government quarantee proqramme and it shows quite clearly that that programme we have in place with firm criteria set down and firm conditions, that 'three years ago when we set these conditions we were convinced then that company was able to turn things around, become economically viable 1and indeed that is now proving to be true. So the company is coming around to be financially stable and again to be operating this year at Sandy Cove. So all in all, Mr.

Speaker, we are ensuring the plants will be reopened and operating and we are . hoping as a result of the harvesting method by the fishermen that employment will be at leas ·t ten weeks during the season in that area. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER CRUsselll: The han. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries (}1r. Morgan)_ and it is on the newly announced Atlantic salmon management plan. The minister is -quoted in various media as supporting the plan of the federal Fisheries Minister CDe Bane) .

I understand from the minister that he has a very good relationship with the federal minister. He is always calling him back and forth so I can as ·sume 1 I would imagine 1 that there was communication going on. . Let me ask the minister to s·tate for the record 2128

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 794 SD - 2 MR. TULK: in this House if indeed the quote as referred to him in the paper is correct? MR. SPEAKER LRussellt: The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what he is referring to with regards to what medium but I do recall doing an

article for CP whi.le I·was in Moncton over the weekend at meetings over there 1 and I said then and I say now that we are concerned with . one aspect of the plan.

In my dis ·cus ·sions with the minister on Thursday past 1 we were of the understanding he was going to delay the opening in Newfoundland by no more than two weeks and on the condition that it would only reduce the amount of salmon by 10 per cent, the amount t:aken by commercial fishermen in Newfoundland~ at the same time he would reduce the effort of the other commercial Maritime fishermen 'throughout the reqion of Atlantic Canada by s·o. per cent to 80. per cent by · cutting back the we .eks from six weeks back to two weeks.

H:e has done that, he has cut back the total fishing seas ·on for the rest of that region from six weeks to two weeks only. But he has delayed the opening in Newfoundland by three weeks and that is different from what I discussed with him on Thursday. The concept we discussed on Thursday was that he was qoing to delay the season by only two weeks·, a maximum of two weeks, . and that he was qoing to look at the removal of part-time :t;ishermen ~olding salmon licences, and he would compensate those part-timer who would not get licences this year.

And also further to that,he was going to do a number of other things which are firmly our policy and our position. We see no point a~ a government 1and the Premier and others have discussed this at some time on fi ·sheries · policy, we see no point in talking about eliminating the activities · of the commercial salmon fishery in 2129

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 795 MR. MORGAN: Atlantic Canada and the activities of full-time fishermen, if that is the only thing they are going to do to try to conserve NM - 1 the Atlantic salmon stocks. , There have to be more things J done than that. There has got to be, for example 1 set in place immediately, salmon enhancement programmes, there has to be action taken by the Government of Canada to deal with the Greenland fishery, which is catching just ~s much salmon last year and the year before as we are catching here in Newfoundland with 4,000 fishermen.

He has to deal with the catch by the Greenland fishery, that has to be --- curtailed. And further there has to be action taken dealing with the poaching on the rivers, So poaching, salrr:on enhancement and the Greenland issues1 these are there issues that we said we would want put .in place immediately if we are to agree to any curtailment whatsoever on our full-time commercial fishery. Now we also said we did not want any situation where the sports fishermen would get preference over the commercial fishery.

And it seems that he has taken some action on the sports fishery, he has cut back the size of the salmon, to be exact I think it is now any salmon less than 63 centimeters. that is what? Approximately 20 inches1I guess. So to be precise and give you detail1these salmon cannot be kept by the anglers. But I am still concerned over the fact that he has not cut back on the number of salmon anglers can keep. They still can take 2 per day and a maximum of 10, the same as it was last year.

So there is no major curtailment of the sports angling activity,yet there is a major curtailment in the rest of the Atlantic region, and the three week delay 2130

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 795 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: here is of concern to us . So as of today I have been in correspondence with - - - the minister and the deputy minister, pointing out to him that what we discussed last week ~·as a maximum of two weeks, open the season around the first week of June, not June 11 as now indicated. Because we are convinced his advisors are wrong, they are wrong in .. their estimation.

They are saying by delaying for three weeks it will mean a mere 10 per cent reduction in the number of salmon taken from Newfoundland waters, we are sayin g it is more like 35 oer cent to 40 per cent less salmon if they go for as long as a three week delay. Because that is ~en most of the larqe salmon 2131

April 9, 1984 Tape 796 PK - 1 MR. MORGAN: are in the waters, when most of the salmon are caught by commerical fishermen. So based on that, Mr. Speaker, I am hoping he will listen to reason and 'change that date and move the date ahead for the first week in June for our commerical salmon fishery. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the "- minister · is quoted in today's Daily News by the wayt and I think in The Evening Telegram as well, as saying tile only ~ - requirement that he had of the Federal Minister ol risheries (Mr.

De Bane) is that he must seek some sort of an agreement with Greenland that they would also cut back on their commerical fishery. But I take it then from what the minister has said that the only real precondition,and the government is good at that, that he put on agreeing with the new management plan was . that there would be a two week delay rather than a three week delay. _.In other words,he did not have any deal on the ·.compensation for fishermen, on the buy-back of licences or anything else . All he wanted was a two week delay rather than a three week delay. Is that correct? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Fisheries . MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I will table in the House this afternoon or :tomorrow a Telex I sent today to M;r . ;' De Bane pointing out quite clearly our conversation of last Thursday and pointing out quite clearly what we understood here in the Newfoundland Government was the new programme. And when the new programme was announced on Friday afternoon it was quite different from what we discussed on Thursday . For example, he mentioned on Thursday a buy-back from part-time fishermen of $500 compensation. That was mentioned to me. And he asked me my 2132

.. ~-- April 9, 1984 Tape 796 PK - 2 MR. MORGAN: opinion of that. I said if it is not full-time fishermen who is going to be affected 1only part-time fishermen who are holding salmon licences, if you are going to take their licences away you have to buy back their fishing gear. And he agreed on that and he agreed to put an amount of $500 to be paid for a part~time fisherman holding a part-time licence. He agreed on that. It was on Thursday. There is no mention of that in his new policy statement. He agreed · to take action in dealing .j with Greenlal:W..

He is of the firm understanding as well that there is no point in cutting back in the Atlantic salmon fishery c~mmerically if ~here is going to be still the major fishing activit;y.~;of the Greenland fishermen. So he agreed that that was going to be dealt with. So these were the understandings. And I want to say further that, whether or not I was reported accurately in The Daily News , I do not recall talking to The Daily News. In fact, I have not talked to The Daily News about the issue.

If The Daily News reporting is no more accurate than the reporting of the Estimates Committee last week on Fisheries, it is not very accurate reporting, and I say that very sincerely because I am finding it rather annoying - MR. NEARY: Blarce it on the press. MR. MORGAN: No , I am only mentioning one press and one ~urn. And the inaccuracies in reporting,whether it is .. I should not say incompete :1ce, just oversights. I do not know what it is 1 but the reporting is just not accurate. You read the report, for example, in The Evening Telegram of · 2133

April 9, 1984 Tape 797 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: the Estimates Committees, what takes place, versus The Daily News and you would not know you lived in the same world, it is completely different. So I am saying, Mr. Speaker, I did not talk to The Daily News. What is being said in The Da ily News, the morning newspaper, was not a quote from me because I did not talk with them. I talked to the Q network in St. John's, who called me, I talked to the C.P. in Halifax, who. called me, I talked to the C.B.C., who called me, on voice tape.

I talked to all of these and did interviews, but The oaily News did not bother to call me or talk to me on the issue, so I do not know why I should respond to the quotations of The Daily News. But I will respond to the questions asked about the issue. MR . TULK: Mr . Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the me~er for Fogo. MR. TULK: For the minister's information, the

article is from the . Canadian Press and I understand that he talked to the Canadian Press. But that aside, does the minister realize that regardless of whether it is a two week delay or a three week delay ,in certain parts of this Province it means devastation for the salmon fishery? For example, I understand that on the Southwest Coast of the Province, like in the district represented by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), the district of LaPoile, that it will mean a 50 per cent to 60 per cent loss in income for those fishermen .

Now, given those kinds of facts, will the minister ndw go on record as saying that he is opposed to the new management plan regardless of whether it is two weeks or three weeks? Because, if that is all the opposition that he had, he really did not accomplish that much by changin g his position once he heard about the three weeks. 2134

April 9, 1984 Tape 797 EC - 2 MR. TULK: I suspect that what really happened is that the minister, through the three weeks, got an out for what he knew was a bad negotiation stance that he had taken. But would he now, in view of that fact, consider saying, 'No, we disagree totally with the salmon enhancement manag~ent plan that you put forward'? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I said earlier, what I agreed to was that based on the fact that the rest of Atlantic Canada was going to be curtailed by 50 per cent to 80 per cent - and that is what the statement now says will be done, 50 per cent to 80 per cent curtailment of commercial fishing in Atlantic Canada outside of Newfoundland, that much curtailment - if that was done in the rest of Atlantic Canada, we would agree to a 10 per cent curtail­ ment. Now, a 10 per cent curtailment did not mean three weeks. ·He set the date,three weeks 1without discussing with me what would be the opening date.

The discus- sion was along the lines of the percentage of less salmon taken by Newfoundland versus the rest of Atlantic Canada; and because he was going to meet the other conditions, the salmon enhancement, the poaching and the Greenland fishery, because he was going to meet those three conditions,and because he 2135

April 9,1984 Tape No. 798 ah-1 MR. MORGAN: was going to cut back the Atlantic salmon commercial fishery in the rest of the region by 50 per cent,it was reasonable for us to agree to a 10 per cent cut for the sake of conservation. Now that is the whole issue. We are saying now is the 10 per cent estimate of his· advisors, this estimation is much to low. He is saying it is only going to be 10 per cent less salmon by delaying the season for three weeks and we are saying that estimation is totally out to lunch. By just three weeks will mean, in our estimation, a 35 to 40- per cent reduction over last year.

And we made our views known today in a telex to him from me, a telex from my deputy to Dr. May,the deputy in Ottawa,and we are hoping that he will listen to what we are saying and not listen to some of his advisors, who, I have .no hesitation in saytng,are a bit biased in their view on the Atlantic salmon, bias .ed in favour of the sports fishery. For example,a recommendation to Mr. De Bane two weeks ago, because he told me so, was ,to ban the commercial fishery in Newfoundland completely, to ban it this year 1 1984, completely and maybe for a two or three year period.

We took a strong position on that, a very strong position, and said,no, we could not tolerate and \vere not going to tolerate a total ban on the commercial salmon fishery in Newfoundland • And it was based on that that he changed the policy paper put .forward to him by his officials 1backed up by the Atlantic Salmon Federation,and I understand the Atlantic Salmon Board as well, calling for a total ban on commercial fisheries in Newfoundland this year.

So he agreed to cast aside that policy document and listen to us,and now he has put forward a policy document which I am inclined to agree he will review and hopefully change the dates 2136

April 9,1984 Tape No. 798 ah-2 MR.MORGAN: and move it ahead and not have any reduction of the number of salmon taken in Newfoundland, which,in-our estimation would be 40 per cent of the total catch. MR.TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Fogo. MR.TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The minister is now backing off from what he said in his original statement. But we will let him do that because that is good for the Newfoundland fishery. One of the things that have been announced by Mr. De Bane is that salmon enhancement programmes will be started when money is available.

Well 1 let me ask the minister if in his discussions with him on Thursday, I believe he said it was, if the federal minister had agreed to start those salmon enhancement plans right away, those programmes right away,or just when does he plan on doing it? Or did the minister ask him to start them if he was going to agree to the management plan as put forward by him? 2137

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 799 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is trying to leave the impression that we can suddenly dictate what the federal government is doing in Ottawa 1 what they do on all matter. The fact is the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane1 in Ottawa was of the impression last week that 1 based on the full consultation with the Liberal Party in Newfoundland,and including the member for LaPoile (_Mr.

Neary). who represents a major salmon fishing area, that they were agreeing to his programme, they could not agree to a ban but they were agreeing to his programme of what he was going to announce on Friday. The Party in Newfoundland was consulted,and r certainly hope they were consulted on a major policy of that nature on the fishery. Surely the Liberal Party of Newfoundland was consulted, they were not ignored, I hope. Or where they ignored? So they were consulted prior to Mr. De Bane•s announcement. And now that they, behind closed door, agreed with the policy of Mr.

De Bane 1 now they are trying to condemn it and make it look like we are the ones who brought the policy in. Mr. Speaker, that is utter nonsense 1because the fact is we put forward our views in writing, put forward our views in Telexes, put forward our views in meetings and we want no curtailment any more than 10 . per cent, maximum 10 per cent, on our commercial Atlantic fishery,and that was only agreed to on certain conditions, - ... oneof them being that there had to be a major curtailment in the rest of Canada and a major curtailment in Greenland. MR, SPEAKER: has expired. MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: for Fogo •.

Order, please! Time for the Question Period A point of order, Mr, Speaker. A point of order, the han. member 2138

.. ----- April 9, 1984 Tape No. 799 SD - 2 MR. TULK: I have to say that in the last statement that the minister made he is either misleadinq this House or the federal minister is misleading the minister, and according to what we have seen happen to the Newfoundland fishery in the 1ast couple of months it is probably the latter case. MR. MORGAN: You were not consulted? MR. SPEAKER CRus-se-111: Order,. please!: MR. TULK: I did not say you were not consulted. I did not say whether we agreed or not. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulkl has made a point but it could hardly· be classed as a point of order. PRESENTING REPORTS' BY STANDING AND 'SPECIAL COMMrrTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bonavista North. SOME HON'. MEMBERS: Oh, oh, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. CROss·: Mr. Speaker, r am pleased to re}?ort that the . Gov91:'nment Services Committee has considered and passed the follow-ing department heads: Head IV- ·Finance.; H.ead V ~ Public works~ Head XI - Transportation; Head XVI Labour and Manpower; and ifead XVII' ..,. Municipal Affairs. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHIClf NOTICE HAS · BEEN ' GIVEN MR..

SPE:Al<ER: "­ PREMI:ER ',PECKFORD: The hon, Premier. Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question 23 on the Order Paper of Thursday, March 29. It is all written out there. MRS·. NEWHOOK: Mr • Speaker •. • MR.. SPEAKER: The hon, Minister of Muni~ipal Affairs ·. 2139

---. ...... . . ... April 9, 151:84 Tape No. 799. SD -3 MRS. NEWH.OOK : Mr. Speaker, I w·i~h to respond to a question put forward by the hon. member for Mount Scio 01r. Barry) with regard to the proclamation of Bill

Section 4 of Bill 18 states that this act or any

section or sections of it comes into force on the day or days to be proclaimed by the Lieutenant-Governor-in CouncL .• I wis.l-t to intonn to him that r have checked with the Lieutenant-Governor in Council and r· unders·tand that this matter will Be consi:.dered within. the next few· days or i:n the very near future • • 2140

··-- - -- -·------ April 9, 1984 Tape No. 800 NM - l 000 MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The han. Leader of the Opposition on a ·point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker :1a.ppened to be out of the House when the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) uttered an inaccurate statement, completely incorrect. I suppose I could if he was quoting the Federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane) then he was quoting a'gentleman who has a reputation of lying. But, Mr.

Speaker, let me say that the han. gentleman who made that statementthat it is ---- - - - -- -- -- completely false, it is a false statement, it is incorrect it is inaccurate, that I have not spoken to Mr. De Bane or any of his officials in any way, shape or form since he lied about my colleague from Mount Scio (Mr. Barry). Mr. Speaker _, I know I cannot accuse the han. gentleman of lyi ng - MR. TULK: I think the federal minister is misleadinq the Provincial :-iinister of Fisheries. H~. S"':Sli..KE~: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: - but the federal minister is either lying or deliberately misleading- the Provincial r.iinister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), Mr. Speakera I ask the han. gentleman to clarify that or withdraw and apologize to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on that point of order. The hon. gentleman obviously ·was not listening to what was said. I said it was in discussions with Mr.

De Bane on the salmon fishery policy for Atlantic Canada, major policy change this year, that I was of the firm understanding - and Hansard will show what I said - of the firm undertanding and impression from Mr. De Bane .that he had discussed this with 2141

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 800 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: the Liberal Party of Newfoundland, and I went further to say, Mr. Speaker, that surely the Liberal Party in Ottawa, in the formulation of such a major policy affecting this Province, would discuss that matter and consult with the - SOME HON. l.ffiMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, they are getting upset now. You see,they cannot take this. So now, Mr. Speaker, we learn SOME H.ON • MEMBERS: Oh; oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR.

MORGAN: - that the government of the day in Ottawa does not even consult the existing Liberal Party in Newfoundland on fishery policy. It does not even consult them. What a shamet What a disgusting situation to havel SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: It is unbelievable that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) would not even have input, or take the time to discuss with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

De Bane) a major policy change on salmon fishery for his own riding all along the East Coast, the Northeast Coast, the Labrador Coast, and,rurthermore, that no one from Ottawa would take the time to even bounce the policy off them~ What is your opinion? How do you think the policy is going to work? What is your views on the policy? Mr. Speaker -, I will say again what I said today,and it is now in Hansard, I said I was of the firm understanding and the firm impression, Mr. De Bane in my conversations with him left the firm impression that he had consulted with the Liberal Party in 2142

J. April 9, 1984 Tape No . 800 NM- 3 MR . MORGAN: Newfoundland, and with others intiris region of Canada, this region of our country, and in this case involving the Liberal Party on this major policy. Now we learn, Mr . Speaker, they are out in the cold. They are total ly out in the cold . Their own colleagues ignore them. point of order . MR . t.IEARY: order. Mr. Speaker, there is no Mr. Speaker, to that point of MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please ! The Chair has heard enough arguing on this point of order.

It is not really a valid point of order~ it is certainly a difference of opinion between two hon. members . ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the Bouse re solve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 2143

April 9, 1984 Tape 801 EC - l COMMITTEE OF THE tiHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! We are discussing Consolidated Fund Services. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we are still on the Consolidated Revenue Fund. I must say that I want to, right at the outset now, put hon. gentlemen's minds there opposite - the handmaidens of Ottawa over there - I want to put their minds at rest. In connection with the matter that just arose, Mr. Chairman, I will read a telegram that I dispatched to Mr. De Bane before lunch today, that will show the hon. gentlemen - ~~.

MORGAN: You could not show it before now? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - show the hon. gentlemen, Mr. Chairman, who stands up for Newfoundland. MR. MORGAN: You did not stand up before today? Shame on you! MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: Order, please! Order, please! Let me show the hon. gentleman who stands up for the fishermen of this Province and who stands up for the unemployed. Is it the hon. lapdog to Ottawa or is it the members on this side? MR. MORGAN: MR . CHAIRMAN: On a point of order, ~x. Chairman. On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. 110RGAN: · I see no dogs in this House, Chaixman, and I think that term, referring to any .Mr. member of this House as a lapdog, has to be withdrawn as being unparliamentary. 2144

April 9, 1984 Tape 801 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: To that poin~of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we hear that remark coming from the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) at least a dozen times a day, day in and day out, whenever the House meets- at least ten or a dozen times a day, Mr. Chairman. If I am out of order, then we ?ave to make it retroactive to include the Government House Leader, who makes that statement ten or.a dozen times a day. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

To that point of order, the word has been·used and has been accepted in this House before, Although I do not think it does anything by way of adding to the debate, it has not been ruled unparliamentary. Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Chairman, I want to show the House who stands up for the fishermen in this Province and I will read this telegram to illustrate what I meant when I raised my point of order, that the hon. gentleman was being taken down the garden path, he was being misled. Telegram, April 9, Hon.

Pierre De Bane, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Government of Canada: · "Your statement that fishermen would only lose 10 per cent income due to your policy of delaying salmon season by three weeks complete and utter nonsense. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the inshore fishery on the Southwest Coast of our Province to avoid making such ridiculous statements in the future. Income of fishermen on the Southwest Coast will be affected by anywhere from 50 to 75 per cent, which means severe losses for many of them. In view of severe consequences to fishermen in this 2145

April 9, 1984 Tape 801 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: Province, you should take immediate steps to put in place a plan to compensate fishermen for these heavy losses.'' Mr. Chairman, I now challenge the hon. gentleman to read his telegram and see if his telegram is worded as strongly as that. MR. MORGAN: Stronger than that. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman had prior consultation with the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane) and he did not show the courage but he sold the fishermen of this Province down the drain, the same thing as he was going to do in Burin and Grand Bank and St. Lawrence, Mr.

Chairman, sell them down the river. The hon. gentleman now is saying in the House, 'Oh, I only agreed to two weeks delay, not three weeks. Well, Mr. Chairman, the han. gentleman does not know the fishery on the Southwest Cdast of this Province very well when he even agreed to two weeks delay in opening the salmon season without compensation for fishermen. AN HON. MEMBER: Shame! MR. NEARY£ ~x .. chairman, with a ~wo week delay it means that they would only have about a week to salmon fish when the basking sharks would be in the area and they would not be able to put their gear out.

The hon. gentleman obviously does not understand the inshore fishery in this Province, Mr. Chairman. So, Mr. Chairman, I hope we will hear no more of that nonsense that the hon. gentleman got on with today. MR. TULK: De Bane sucked him in again. MR. NEARY: I think, by the way, they are having a little lovers' tiff. The provincial Minister of 2146

---~--------• April 9, 1984 Tape 801 EC - 4 MR. NEARY: Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the federal minister (Mr. De Bane) are having a little lovers' quarrel now. a little lovers' tiff. r~. TULK: He realizes he cheated on him. 2147

a April 9,1984 Tape 802 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Yes, somebody cheated and they are having a little lover's tiff. Now it only remains to be seen whether or not they will be able to get back together again and carry on the love affair. MR. TULK: De Bane may change his telegram. MR. NEARY: Well the only thing you can do is present the federal minister with the flip side of his record, "Voices In The Wind". Now if he were to take that and present Mr. De Bane - MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: MR. PATTERSON: MR. WARREN: election. MR. NEARY: the flip side, "De Bane Be Kind". "De Bane Be Kind" or "Voter Be Kind", What about, "Cashii1.

Be Kind"? You will be crying in the next Mr. Chairman, there is a big problem created as a result of the delay in the opening of the commerical salmon season in this Province, especially on the East Coast and the Southwest Coast of the Province. We have a unique fishery on the Southwest Coast and the hon. gentleman does not seem to realize that , Mr. Chairman, When he made his little deal with Mr.

De Bane to allow a two week delay in opening the commerical salmon season on the southwest Coast, th~hon. gentleman did not realize the damage, the inconvenience and the hardship and the severe loss of income that he was causing fishermen in that part of the Province, Mr. Chairman. The hon. gentleman is too anxious. MR. ANDREWS: MR . NE.'\RY: MR. ANDREWS: MR. NEARY: consulted? MR. MORGAN: You were not even consulted. Pardon? You were not even consulted. That is right. Why would we be Why would the Liberal Party in power in Ottawa consult the Liberal Party in Newfoundland? Yes, why would they? 2148

April 9,1984 Tape 802 PK - 2 SOME HON. MEMB ERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we are not the handmaidens of Ottawa. We are not Ottawa's lapdog . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, . please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we are not Mr. De Bane's handmaiden or his lapdog. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! . MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, if we were consulted, I can say to han. gentlemen there opposite that there is no way that you would have a three week delay in the opening of the commerical salmon season without compensating fishermen. -- MR.

WARREN: No compensation? MR. NEARY: No compensation. You know ,the only little gimmick that the minister mentioned today was that Mr. De Bane agreed to buy back - MR. TULK: $500 for part-time fishermen. MR. NEARY: - to pay $500 to part-time fishermen to buy back their licences. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR . NEARY: You talk about pressure , trying to put the pressure on the fishermen to give up the salmon fishery, buy their licences back for $500; Mr. Chairman, what kind of a policy is that? MR. TULK: I wonder if he brought that back to the Premier to gave a look at 1 too? MR.

NEARY: No, he did not bring that back to the Premier. 2149

April 9,1984 Tape 802 PK - 3 ~. MORGAN: Now I see what is 'happening! ---. ·-. _ __..__ _ You are going to oppose Cashin for the leadership. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman has now got himself boxed into a corner in an embarrassing position, and I am sure the hon. Premier has said to the hon. gentleman, 'Look!Will .you stay off the telephone and say off the television and off the radio because you are making a complete fool of yourself.' I had calls this morning from fishermen all over this Province, who said, 1Whe~ you get in the House this afternoon, will you give it to the Provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) for agreeing to allow three weeks to be cut off our commerical fishery, for selling the fishermen vf this Province down the river?' MR. MORGAN: Listen to him! Listen to him! It is not our policy . . We have no say over it. MR. WARREN: You agreed with it. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman agreed to it by his own admission in this House today and his story with Canadian press, He ~greed , Mr. Chairman, to it. He agreed to two weeks. And now he is trying to weasel out by saying,well 1 they announced three weeks instead of two. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, if the hon. gentleman had demanded compensation for the fishermen 1, In my district I know there is going to be a drastic loss of income. There is going to be starvation. MR. r-IORGAN: For part-timers? MR. NEARY: No, for all of the fishermen. Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman does not understand the small- 2i50

April 9,1984 Tape 802 PK - 4 MR. NEARY: boat fishermen in my district. The salmon fishery is 50 per cent of their in ·come. Bow are we going to get this MR. MORGAN: Well, they full-time fishermen, then. then. MR. NEARY: Yes, they are • How are t.hey going to get their stamps? MR . MORGAN: Get the issue straignt. then. - ... ---- -- --··~ They are part -timers . MR. WARREN: You -do not -know whaT you are talking about. MR. NEA,RY: I got the issue straight . MR. MORGAN: Are they full-time or part-time fishermen? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, all I am saying is the hon. gentleman does 2151

April 9,1984 Tape No. 803 ah-1 MR.NEARY: not understand what goes on. You have fishermen down there and if you take two or three weeks off their salmon fishery,well 1 I would say they would not be able to fish at all because the basking sharks will be in and they cannot get their gear in the water 1so there is no qomm~rcial salmon fishery, period. !L"R..TULK: Does he realize '"hat salmon landings you get in two weeks? MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman does not seem to understand that. Let him go down, They are having a meeting down there. I challenge the hon. gentleman to come down to a meeting in Isle aux Morts.

MR.MORGAN: Oh, I am going down pretty soon, do not worry, I am going down there. MR.NEARY: The hon. gentleman should come down to t~e fishery meeting in Isle aux Morts. t1.R . TOBIN : And I am going with him. MR.CHAIRMAN(A ylward): Order, pleasP.! MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, they are going to have a meeting in Isle aux Morts,which is the central location in the district 1 to talk about this matter.

And I challenge the hon. gentleman to appear at that meeting and justify why he agreed with the two week delay 1which now turns out to be three weeks 1and why he did not demand compensation to the fishermen for their drastic loss of income? These are the questions that the hon. gentleman has to answer , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The hon . member's time has elapsed. MR.MORGAN: Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The hon . Minister of Fisheries. 2152

April 9,1984 Tape No. 803 ah-2 MR.MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, I ~'i'a5 not going to speak in this debate because I havetoo much other work to do,but I will now.

Here is a gentleman standing up talking about a policy which was brought in by his own party in Ottawa., and now 1 suddenly 1 when he realizes that the policy may have some effects on his own riding on the Southwest Coast,which it will, indeed 1because a few years ago when the same Liberal party in power, the same Liberal government in Ottawa, with a different Minister of Fisheries,curtailed in a severe way the commercial salmon fishery on the Southwest Coast of the Province, in the same hon. gentleman's district who now just sat down in this debate, when that occured was the same hon. gentleman then effective in getting compensation for those fishermen?

No, indeed not, Mr. Chairman. He tried hard but he had absolutely no influence on the then Minister, Leblanc, then Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa. He did not listen to him no more than if he did not exist, either as a MHA or, in fact at that time he was the House Leader. He was in-House Leader at the time. They did not listen to him then as a MHA, as a senior official of the Liberal Party here in Newfoundland, a senior member of the House, They ignored him then and they are ignoring him now because if he had any concern, if the Liberal Party in Newfoundland had any concern on the Atlantic salmon - SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, they cannot take it. The member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) has himself in a real bind. They are now defending part-time fishermen. And I said all along I will stand by my policy position and that is we are not going to give in to any major 2153

April 9,1984 Tape No. 803 ah-3 MR.MORGAN: curtailment of the full-time fishermen of our Province, those fishermen who do nothing else for a living but fish. Any curtailment of our commercial fishermen we will fight and oppose. Now the Opposition have shown their true colours, now they are standing for the part-timers. Now why would that be, Mr. Chairman? Why would that be? MR. TULK: A point of order. MR.CUAIRMAN (Aylward): A point of order. The Han. member for Fogo.

MR.TULK: Tbe Minister of Fisheries can try to weasel his way out of the mess he has made of the Atlantic salmon management plan all he likes by trying to say we are for part-time fishermen. It has always been very clear in this House where we stood in relation to part-time fishermen, but it is not so clear with the han. gentleman because he will S'l'litch from one day to the next \'lhichever suits him. Let him withdraw that remark,Mr.Chairman. Or if he wants to let him go on but he is absolutely and totally wrong and he knows it.

MR.CHAIRMAN: To that point of order 1 I rule there is obviously a difference of opinion between two han members. MR.MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.MORGAN: They are merely trying to waste my time again, the few minutes I have in this debate. That is all they are doing. Mr. Chairman, the fact is that our policy position has been made quite well known in correspondence, in documents, in policy papers put forward to Ottawa 1 and there have not been one iota, one 2154

April 9,1984 Tape No . 803 ah-4 MR.MORGAN : sentence, one comma of anything put forward to Ottawa until today by the Liberal Party . Now that is the issue, that is the issue. Everybody knew that there was going to be coming forward a major policy change this year on Atlantic salmon, because of the conservation measures· which must go in place because stocks are down,the catches are down, the stocks are i;n trouble. Everybody in this Province , even those not even involved in the fishing industry knew that this year there were coming some changes in the policy for Atlantic salmon . Now I ask a mere question: Why 1 2155

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 804 NM - l MR. MORGAN: it is that the Liberal Party that seems to be so concerned about fisheries in the House of Assembly when they are here in debate, why is it the Liberal Party of Newfoundland did not put forward suggestions, proposals, ideas, concepts, policy positions on the new policy corning out of Ottawa? Why did they have to wait until today? That is a key question . Why would they wait until the policy was announced and made public and made official by the Minister of Fisheries?

The other provinces had their say, the other parties -had their say, the sports groups and others, but the Liberal Party chose to remain quiet and ·now that they see where the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), where his part-time - MR. TULK: Will you be at this meeting? MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, I cannot speak with the hon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) carryinq on! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, the fact is that the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) is defending part-time fishermen.

It has gotten the member for Fogo in very deep water because on Fogo Island the people out there want full- time fishermen only, and deal with full-time licences. Mr. Cashin wants full-time fishermen only. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman just made an incorrect, false statement, Your Honour, if it is allowed to continue in this House, to make false statements that are bordering almost on a lie, although under the rules of Parliament you cannot use that language, it will undermine the system.

I have to say to the 2156

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 804 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: hon. gentleman that he is incorrect, that Hichael Best and Eric Strickland, two full-time fishermen in my district,will be shocked to hear the hon. gentleman make statements like he just made, one living in Petites and one living in Diamond Cove near Rose Blanche, Mr. Chairman.

I am sure that these two gentlemen who are full-time fishermen, who depe~d largely on the salmon fishery for their income with ·small boats, would be shocked to hear that the hon. gentleman is completely ignorant of the inshore fishery on the Southwest Coast and I do not believe that the han. gentleman should be allowed, Mr. Chairman, to continue with these misleading statements, and he should withdraw and apologize to the House. MR. MORGAN: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): To that point of order, the hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.

MORGAN: I would say the same hon. gentleman, that the fishermen down in his riding, these full-time fishermen would be just as shocked or even more shocked to learn that this hon. gentleman, as leader of his party in Newfoundland, as their member in their respective riding, did not even make representation to Ottawa on this major issue until toaay. He did not make a representation, that is the key matter, Mr. Chairman.

The key matter is the fact that the policies adversely affecting our commercial salmon fishermen are put in place without any input, with any representation being made by the Liberal Party in this Province. It goes to show they are not concerned. They do not care about the inshore fishermen. They do not care about the issues involving inshore fishermen. 2157

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 804 NM - 3 MR. MORGAN: They do not care about the adverse affect on them because if they did why was it they did not put forward their views until today, when a few calls came in from Port aux Basquesr I had a few calls from the Southwestern portion of the Province as wellsaying, "Why is that fellow up in Ottawa cutting us back on salmon again? Will he not listen to anybody down there at all?" That is the key question. Now the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) wants to make it look like this is a new policy of the Newfoundland Governmen~ that we dictate the policy to Ottawa and they change the policy when we want them to. Mr. Chairman, the fact is there is a need for conservation. Any -- - - - fishermen who are in our Province today who are not understanding -- ' - the need for conservation of our Atlantic salmon is not genuine fisherman. I will tell you the reason why, Mr. Chairman. A few years ago they did not understand the herring stocks being depleted on the South Coast of our Province, today there is no herring fishery. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please: Is the hon. minister still speaking on the point of order, or can I rule on that point of order? MR. MORGAN: I am sorry, Mr . Chairman. I want to make a point there is no point of order 1 just a difference of opinion . MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order,there is definitely a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. Minister of Fisheries has two minutes remaining. 2158

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 804 NM - 4 MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Chairman, the fact is that there is a need for conservation. There is no question in anybody's mind today that the Atlantic salmon stocks are down. - The herring fishery is down to a point where there is no quota left for fishermen to catch herring anymore on the South Coast two years ago, and last year on the Northest Coast. There are no herring stocks left because of overfishing, too much fishing. And there are no more quotas allowed 1 period.

So rather than have a total ban on the Atlantic salmon this year 1we said,"Yes, we will agree to some curtailment but only on certain conditions, for the sake of conservation." We are not stupid here, we are conservationists as well. We do not want to see the stocks depleted. Why should we agree to have the salmon stocks depleted by overfishing, whether it be in the rivers or in the waters along our Coast line. So we agreed to some curtailment with certain conditions.

And if the Opposition wants to now say they want no conservation measures put in place, if they do not want to take into consideration the possibility of depleting the stocks completely in Atlantic Canada and no more commercial fishery 1period, because -it was so close to having no commercial fishery this year, it was that close, Mr. Chairman, that close to a decision in Ottawa being made for a total ban this year on commercial fishing for salmon in Newfoundland, a total ban. There is not a total ban but a curtailment, which has been proposed to reduce by 10 per cent the amount of salmon taken.

And our concern now as a government is that 2159

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 805 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: the projections being made by the federal Department of Fisher~es and by the minister and his advisors are out and the measures they have been taken will be more than a 10 per cent reduction. That is the major issue. We want to show them quite clearl~ as we did today in our telex to the minister 1that the three week delay will mean more than a 10 per cent reduction. That is the key issue. But there is indeed a need for conservation, we recognize that 1and we support some of the issues and policies put forward in that regard. MR.

CHAIRMAN CAylwardt: Before I introduce the hon. member,I just wish to advise the House that there is approximate~y fifty-two minutes left in debate. The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, let me point out the minister has attempted and has tried to give,either knowingly or unknowingly 1 in the last half an hour since Question Period ended, false information to this House He has kept at it, he has persisted. lfuether he knows the difference or not I am not sure, h.e probably does not. MR. NEARY: He said this was the key issue. MR.

TULK: Yes, the key issue is did the Liberal Party make any representation to Mr. De Bane or his officials· on the salmon enhancement programme, on the salmon management plan that they are now putting out? Let me read the hon. gentleman a telegram sent by the Leader of the Opposition lMr •. Nearyl to the han. Pierre De Bane. MR •. NEARY: How long ago? MR. TULK: I will get to that. The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Government of Canada, dated -when? - March 8, 1984. MR. NEARY : Three weeks ago , MR. TULK: _ L ~ t me destroy his ar~ument once and for all that there has been no attempt by the Liberal Party 2160

--- ---·-· ·---- -- April 9, 1984 MR. TULK: ~m. MORGAN: you. Tape No. 805 to stop what is happening. Let us see if he listens to SD - 2 MR. TULK': He does not have to listen to us because he has a Minister of Fisheries (~r. Morgan! who will give away anything in this Province for his own political skin. But let me read, Mr.

Chairman, the representation that we made. 'Salmon fishermen on the Southwest Coast very concerned over two week postponement in opening this year's salmon seas ·on: · Concerned over two weeks, not like the ministerfconcerned over three. •Even in normal times our .salmon fishermen cannot :)..eave gear in water for a full season due ~o sharks destroying gear. If present regulations stand, our fishermen will only manage to fish approximately, two weeks for the whole season.

This · is gross ·ly unfair and ,as there is no provision for compensation, some fishermen will lose as much as 75 per cent of their annual income. •· S'eventy-.-five per cent of their annual income and the Minister of Fisheries 1 I submit to this House ,is · not even aware of that. He started talking about part-time and full-time fishermen when the real issue, Mr. Chairman, .ts the length of the s·eason. Now he is trying to get out out Mr. De Bane ignores it. Mr.

De Bane has not had a good fishery policy in a long while for this Prov.tnce I and it rs prec.ts·ely because he has been ignoring this Oppositi:on and listening to that hon. gentleman, the two lovers · in fisheries in Newfoundland. 'May we hope, therefore, you will g.tve every consideration to reviewing this de .c.isi:on ~r providing compensation to fishermen affected •. Now who is that signed by? Stephen A. Neary, MHA, Leader of the Opposition. MR. ~10RGAN: MR. NEARY: did not make representation. It had no effect, obviously. But you said the key was we 2161

-·-- ---- - April 9, 1984 Tape . No. 805 s:o ~ 3 MR. TULK: He does not have to li.sten ta anybody ! All he has to do is talk to the hon. gentlelt'l .an and he can get what he wants. He can protect New · Bruns~ick fishermen becaus-e the Min .ister of Fis ·heri:es CMr, MO:t'ganL in Newfoundland is· s-o ineffective. Here we s-e.e the 1llinister ~ he admitted it in the Hous ·e this · evening, that the only thing that . he wa .s concerned aeout ±n the salmon 1na .na_gement plan was that it be for two weeks rather than three. . That was the onl y thing he was concerned about. MR. WARREN: Big deal, MR.

TULK: Big deal,, A.nd he wanted th .e minister to seek out with Greenland an agpeement! · To seek out~ H.e did not even have to have one ., jus :t t.o seek i;t out. He did not look at the salmon enhancement programme, He does not know to this day whether the federal Min±s ter af Fisheri ·es · lMr. De Banei is going to put a cent or not into the salmon enhance~ent programme. does not have a clue whether he is · or not. He doeS> not really know that . the buy-back system is voluntary, He does not really know that, All he knows is that there is supposed to be $5.00. in it somewhere. Mr.

Chairman~ the 1!l rnis:ter ~s again shown to thls · House his inability · to represent tile Newfoundl .an.d fishermen in Ottawa. He has · shown that, He snowed i:t to us : :f:i't's:t this spri-ng when he signed two a.g;reements to close down fisfl plants i-n this Province, _ H:e signed t.h:em and then came back to his Premier and hi'S Premier had the. go.od sense - r thi:nk it was good sense to te 11 him , "No ~ Jli'm , yo.u a't'e wrong' . I wonder if this weekend 1 since he got back last night, I wonder if the Premier has again said to him, 'Horgan, you are wrong again.

Fisheries Minister, vou are wrong again. ' Two weeks is not good enough and that is the only condition he had. Now, Mr. Chairman, let me speak 2162

April 9, 1984 Tape No . 805 so - 4 MR. TULK: to this idea that the government are conservationists and we are not on this side. Yes, this government is a lot Gf things and so are '"e, and so are we conservationists . But this gove~nment can be anything as long as they - MR. NEARY: All things to all people. MR. TULK: That is right. - do not have to pay or compensate anybody for some of the actions that they take. You can go on a.nd find example after example of what I speak. But what are we doing here? The member for Placentia (Mr . Patterson) s_ays, 'Lo .ok out for Rick Cashin'.

Well I have to tell those hon. gentlemen that Rick Cashin _is welcome in this Party - MR. MORGAN: You have no choice but to like him. If he wants to come, he will come. MR. TULK: - because the people on this side do not believe that you have to solve the fishery problems in this Province on the backs of fishermen . MR . t-10RGAN: Yo u will have nothing to say about Cashin coming to the Liberal Party or not . 2163

April 9, 1984 Tape 806 EC ~ l MR . TULK: You do not have to solve the problems on the backs of the fishermen in this Province; but that is what we have here again. We have a provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) who is allowing the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane) to solve ~ MR. NEARY: Sold them out! MR. TULK: Sold them out! ~ is allowing the federal Minister of Fisheries ,to solve a salmon problem that is really a proble _m for New Brunswick and Greenland, but yet, the Newfoundland fisherman is again ~ ~- NEARY: And the sports fisherman in New Brunswick. MR. TULK: ~ and the sports fisherman.

But the Newfoundland fishermen are again paying. Does the minister not realize that? You are going to destroy fishermen in the district of LaPoile, along the Southwest Coast. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. TULK: He did not even think about that. Or if he thought about it, he did not have the ability or the credence with the federal minister to solve the problem. That is the real issue. MR. NEARY: Right. MR. TULK: That is the real issue.

Never mind whether somebody sold somebody down the drain, never mind whether somebody consulted with somebody or not, the truth is that the provincial Minister of Fisheries in this Province did not protect the fishermen of this Province. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. TULK: That is the real truth and that is where the shame of the whole matter is. To save his 2164

April 9, 1984 Tape 806 EC ~ 2 MR. TULK: own political skin and look good, he will stand in this House and say anything, he will do anything that it takes: but he will not stand up and say to the federal minister (Mr. De Bane), 'Look, if you are going to cut back on the salmon catch in this Province, our fishermen have to be taken care of, becausP they depend on it for a living.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: That is what the provincial minister (~x. Morgan) has not done. And he has agreed to such little terms as 'voluntary 1 , that i~ is voluntary if you pass back your salmon licence.

And the federal minister is not necessarily saying part-time fishermen either, let me remind him of that. What does 'voluntary' mean? That you have the ability to choose. Now, if you are going to cut a season off completely, as they are doing on the Southwest Coast, if you are going to cut a season off completely, you can wonder how much voluntary effort there is in that or how much choice that one has to do what he wants to do. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. TULK: The minister again ~as sold our inshore fishermen down the drain.

There have been a number of occasions when the minister should have tendered his resignation and here is another example of that today. On Thursday - MR. MORGAN: It is not my policy! MR. TULK: The truth is that regardless of whether it is his policy or not, on Thgrsd~y - MR. ~'IDRGAN: Get in touch with De Bane. Show your influence to change something up there. MR. TULK: You said in this House that on Thursday you met with the federal minister and agreed with 2165

April 9, 1984 Tape 806 EC ~ 3 MR. TULK: the plan, the only thing you wanted was two weeks rather than three. Now we have a lovers' tiff going on. Last Thursday, the federal minister (Mr. De Bane) was a great man, a great Fisheries Minister! HR. MORGAN: MR. TULK: Ottawa, who It is a Liberal policy to break the inshc_ e fish.enren. Talking about talking to your colleagues in talked to Lloyd Crouse when he made that sta-tement on the seal fishery? Was that the provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan)? MR. MORGAN: changed. it! MR. TULK: MR. MORGAN: MR. TULK: He is·my buddy. He He fought it, yes.

Did I get it changed? Yes, you got it half changed. You backed off. You backed off. You have lost your position, you will admit that in private. MR. MORGAN: Put your money where your mouth is. MR. TULK: You are the provincial minister - go do your job! MR. MORGAN: Get your own party in Otta\'la to change its policy. You have no influence in Otta\'7a. Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: The han. the member for Fogo! (Mr. Tulk). Oh, when I talk to the fishermen again on ~ago Island!

Oh, when I talk to them again1very ~oon, when I go down for a meeting, a nice large meeting, when I talk to them again! Can you imagine, Mr. Chairman! Now, he criticizes me for attacking the P.C. Party on a policy on fisheries which I fought publicly, I felt I had no choice at the time. I fought it publicly and I was 2166

April 9, 19B4 Tape B06 EC - 4 MR. MORGAN: effective in getting it changed. I know that from talking to the leader of our party and others in Ottawa: he changed the policy because he listened to what we in this party here had to say. But this same hon. gentleman is now a~tting they have no influence with regard to getting p~licy changed, or influence on policies 1 period 1as they pertain to the fishing industry in our Province. Now, that is the who·le total weakness of the Liberal Party, they have no effect whatsoever on their party in Ottawa. That is the crux of all of this.

Because, if a bad policy comes ou~ and this policy is going to affect more than 10 per cent of our catch, as I said today in the House 1 and today in a Telex to De Bane 1 a:1d as I said in a oonversation with him last week' it is a bad policy. If it is going to affect more than 10 per cent of the catch of our commercial fishermen, it is a bad policy. So let us get a bad policy changed. Now, I am going to fight it, but I am on the opposite side. It is not one of my colleagues in Ottawa who is bringing this policy in. It is one of the Opposition's colleagues in Ottawa who is bringing this policy in.

Now, he is a fine man, a fine gentleman, but his policy and his advisers are \~rong. He is out in his 2167

. -·~- -- - -- -- - April 9,1984 Tape 807 PK - 1 MR. MORGAN: estimation about 10 per cent, much more than that. So let us see the Liberal Party put its money where its mouth is. Let us get some action. Let us get some action from their position. If the Liberals in Ottawa, if they are sincere,let them fight it effectively. Now why is it today, Mr. Chairman, that the herring fishery is closed? When the union is saying let us have a commerical ~ing fishery for _fixed gear,_ Mr.

Cashin is sayinq it, and I am saying it on behalf of Newfoundland Government 1 !here has not been a word from the Liberal Party about the herring fishery and every inshore fisherman today along our coastline is asking us to take up the case for them ·' and say we want a fixed gear herring fishery along the East and Northeast Coast of our Province. They are saying it. They are asking for it. Now why is it, Mr. Chairman? MR. TULK:- You are misleading the House again. MR. MORGAN: Now if the Liberal Party was concerned for the inshore - now the hon. gentleman for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) must be sincere.

I have no reason to question the han. gentleman for Fogo about his sincerity, he represents q fishing district, he must be sincere or he would not be in the House today. Now why is it he ~ould not get the herring policy changed? MR. TULK: I am crying! MR. MORGAN: Because he opposed it and again it fell on deaf ears. It fell on total deaf ears in Ottawa. 2168

April 9,1984 Tape 807 PK - 2 MR. MORGAN: The Liberal Party was not listened to. One of his own colleagues in Ottawa would not listen to ~im. Now how can a party aspire to become the government of this Province one of these days, fifteen or twenty years time maybe, aspire to becoming a government of this Province when they cannot even get along with their colleagues in Ottawa today which indeed is the Government of Canada, a government for the last number of years with a small break. MR. TULK: The telegra~ said, 'Jim did not cry'. MR. MORGAN: So the point is , Mr.

Chairman, that the han. gentleman in .:the .Oppositian·is trying to make it look like - the media all know the difference, the p"ublic will know the difference -we do not set policies on harvesting , licencing, the length of the season, when the season opens, all of this is under federal government jurisdiction. Now that strengthens our argument for us to have more say over the fishing industry mor than what we have. Mr. Chairman., . we have no more say than the Liberal Party, not one word more say than the Liberal Party of this Province.

But surely the Liberal Party, one of their own colleagues, the same political stripe in Ottawa, surely they would have more affect in dealing with him 1 putting forward their views in changing policy than an opposing party would have. Surely they would. So they are trying to make it look like now a bad policy comes forward from one of their colleagues, one of their own Liberal colleagues, and you want to make it look like we 1 the Gover~ent of Newfoundland 1which has no say over the issue 1that we are responsible for bad ~olicy. Now that, Mr.

Chairman, is a clear example of the Liberal Party trying to play politics with fisheries and they keep on doing it. They try to twist the issues to try to make the government look bad or the minister look bad or the Premier look bad on fisheries matters. They keep 2169

April 9,1984 Tape 807 PK - 3 MR. MORGAN: on playing politics . And it is not a time to play politics. Now let us join forces, Mr. Chairman. I will make an appeal, Mr. Chairman, a very sincere appeal, t1y Telex today - MR. TULK: You will be sorry. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, the bon. gentleman, look,we are talking about a serious matter, Mr. Chairman. Tell him to keep quiet over there. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. MORGAN: I will make an appeal, a very serious one.

Let the Opposition combine with my efforts put forward today in a Telex on the issue 1and let them show the Province of Newfoundland they have some - HR. TULK: MR. MORGAN : MR . CHAIRMAN: MR. MORGAN: Fishe~..! first! Keep quiet'. Order, please! He is embarrassed. He cannot listen. He is so embarrassed he cannot listen. Mr. Chairman, my Telex went this morning and i~ now in ~tr. De Bane's hands and it will be public, you will hear it this aft~rnoon. MR. TULK: Let us see it. MR. MO .RGAN: We will get it this afternoon. Mr. Chairman, let me finish my appeal.

If the bon. gentlemen in the Opposition are sincere about trying to get the policy changed 1 well let us. 2170

·-· -- - April 9, 1984 Tape No. 808 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: join forces and try to get it Ghanged.Because up to now the Opposition was not listened to by the government in Ottawa. They sent telexes on March 5 - what was the date of the telex?­ March 8, the telex? l1R. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: Government ignored them. MR. BARRY: MR. MORGAN: Yes. Went forward and the Liberal De Bane you said. My telex went off today and the Liberal Government hopefully will not ignore me but it has gone forward. My views went forward, Mr. Chairman, three weeks ago, two months.

When we were travelling in Japan almost a month ago we had long discussion on the salmon fishery with Mr. McGrath there. Now, Mr. Chairman, I put forward my case then. We are almost identical on our positions, government and opposition, I will make a very sincere, serious appeal, let us put together our voices as one and go to Ottawa, in telex or in correspondence or a telephone conversation, call it what you wish, and let us get the Liberal policy changed. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : member for Fogo. MR. MORGAN: MR. TULK: A point of order, the hon. Oh,he cannot take it now.

On a point of order. the minister is over there raving on and !on about .a telex he sent to the Federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De·-Bane) and he is looking for the agreement of this side. We are not going to take his word. When it puts it on the table and we have a look at it we will decide at that time whether we will 2171

April 9, 1984 MR. TULK: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : of order. MR. MORGAN: welcome that. MR. TULK: MR. MORGAN: have it tabled tomorrow. MR. TULK: Tape No. 808 NM - 2 agree with him or not. There is obviously no point The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Well, Mr. Chairman, I indeed Put it on the table. Mr. Chairman, tomorrow, I will Why not do it now? We cannot wait. Get it done now. Send down and get it. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, if I would go around sending a telex one half an hour and putting it in the press the next half an hour, they would condemn me for doing that because I am being unfair in playing politics.

Let us give the man a chance. MR. TULK: it. You just wanted us to agree with MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, you know the insincerity 'of the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) is showing this aftenxo~because he is sitting so close to the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) over there. That is the reason why it is showing. Now, Mr. Chairman, the telex went forward to the minister. It will be in his hands this afternoon, the telex.

And if the Liberal Party of Newfoundland, if they can show once throughout all the years - well 1the last fourteen years for me here -that they can be effective in changing the Liberal policy in Ottawa well let us give them credit for it. MR. TULK: Put your telegram on the table now. 2172

~ April 9, 1984 Tape No. BOB NM - 3 MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Chairman, there is no hesitation. It can be done tomorrow, Mr. Chairman. It is down in my office in Atlantic Place, I have not got it here with me. MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: I just had ~ine senr up. You can walk to your office next door. My office is down in Atlantic Place, down on Water Street. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. MORGAN: · So, Mr. Chairman, let the Liberal Party prove at least once that they can be effective. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MORGAN: MR. CHAIRMAN: han. members that the - MR.

TULK: Order, please! Could I have silence, Mr. Chairman? Order; please! I have to remind ~'Jhere is the Telex - ~c> .ble it! MR. CHAIRMAN: · Order, please! I wish to remind han. members that each member while speaking has the right to be heard in silence. The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr. Chairman, telexes have gone forward from both the government and the Liberal Party, so they say, sometime ago, some weeks ago. They were ineffective. The policy now is different from what we thought it was going to be. So what I am saying , is '11hy be partisan on this issue?

Why play politics? Let us combine our efforts, Opposition and Government. Let us go to Ottawa together with one voice and say, "l-1r. De Bane, your advisers are wrong, Sir. Your policy, put forward based on 2i73

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 808 NM - 4 MR. MORGAN: advisers' opinion and advice, is wrong. We think your policy is wrong because there is going to be more than a 10 per cent reduction in the salmon taken by Newfoundland." Now if we go together with one voice maybe it will prove - MR. TULK: You want credit for the policy. MR. MORGAN: I do not want credit for changing the policy. What do I care if I get credit or not for the policy~ I want it changed. Mr. Chairman, we will give the Liberal Party full marks, full credit for getting the policy changed if we can combine our efforts and change it. MR. TULK: MR.

CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : member for Fogo. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of order, the han. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Fisheries has said that he sen <~ a telex this morning to the Federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane) concerning this programme . Now let me make two points for the minister~ If that telex is to the advantage of the fisherMen of this Province 1the Liberal Party has no doubt ab9ut signing it or going forward against the Federal Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear! MR ..

TULK: And let me make one other point. if he wants that telex in this House by ten to five, he can write the note authorizing me to get it and I will go to his office and get it. MR. MORGAN: Superman. MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. CHAIRMAN: han. Minister of Justice. To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. To that point of order, the 2174

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 808 NM - 5 MR. OTTENHEIMER: I would submit it is q~ite obvious that there is no point of order. I would not insult. the Chair.' s intelligence by putting that argument forward,.but I think that what is obvious is that hon. members are using points of order in an attempt to interrupt the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). MR. TULK: No. No. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: In this kind of debate, of course, there ~s an opportunity every ten minutes to go back and forth, so I would suggest that if the Opposition have any points to make that they make their poi"nts when they have the opportunity to speak rather than by continuous interruptions. MR. CHAIBMAN (Aylward) : To that point of order, I do 2175

April 9,1984 Tape No . 809 ah -1 MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylward): take note of the comment made by the han. Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) that each of the members here, every ten minutes, would have the opportunity to speak .. There is no point of order, it is a difference ~ of opinion. The han. Minister of Fisheries' time has elapsed. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR.CHAIRMAN: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, if you ever _ saw a man get himself into a trap,you saw the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) do it this afternoon.

He told us in his earlier ten minute statement that the key issue was that the Liberals, the Opposition did not do anything about this matter until today. He said that was the key issu7. And then my colleague,the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk),produced a telegram that we sent to han. Pierre De Bane on March 8th, a month and one nay ago. And, Mr. Chairman, let me point out to the han. Minister of Fisheries that a copy of that telex went to Mr. Richard Cashin, to Mr. Roger Simmons and to a number of other people. MR. MORGAN: ~~at was the reply? MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, could I have silence there please. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I wish to once again remind han. members that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) has asked to be heard in silence. ae should not have to request to be heard in silence,since it is his right. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, copies of my telex went to Mr. Richard Cashin, President of the Fishermens Union, Mr. Roger Simmons. But who else did 2176

April 9,1984 Tape No. 809 ah-2 MR.NEARY: copies of my telex go to? They went to at least four full-time fishermen , salmon fishermen in my district who had complained about the two weeks, let alone three weeks cut. Now the han. gentleman tells us this afternoon in this han. House that we cannot defend these full-time fishermen; Who are they? I will name them for the han. gentleman. MR.MORGAN: You cannot depend on anyone listening to you in Ottawa. MR .NEARY: I will name them for the han. gentleman. Mr. Chairman, Michael Best - MR.MORGAN: That is a Liberal. That is why you_are defending him.

MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, Michael Best of Diamond Cove. Is he a part-time fishermen? Does he have a part-time license? Is he going to lose 50 per cent or more of his income? What about Albert Herritt in Rose Blanche? Is he a part-time fisherman? And what about Eric Strickland in Petites? Is he a part-time fisherman? ·And what about Roy Spicer in Rose Blanche? Is he a part-time fishermen? MR. HOUSE: . You should know. They are your constituents. MR.NEARY: I should know and that is why I am defending against theaccusations and attack of the provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan). He says you are only over there defending part-time fishermen. The biggest bulk . of his income, Michael Best in Diamond Cove 1 comes from the Salmon fishery. Now Mr. Allan Munden is a part-time fisherman 1 but even a large part of his income comes from the commercial salmon fishery. Mr. Chairman, the fact 2177

April 9,1984 Tape No. 809 ah-3 MR.NEARY: of the matter is that Mr. De Bane has politically seduced our provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan). And I knew that it would only be a matter of time when they would have their little lovers' 'tiff. And now what does the hon. gentlem~n do? In order to try and kiss and make up to Mr. De Bane 1what does he say in this House? He say~ _ Mr. De Bane advisors are wrong. His advisors are wrong. Is the hon. gentleman telling us that he listens to his advisors? Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is that the buck stops _with the minister.

It is the minister who has to take the responsibility for his policy and not his advisors. MR.MORGAN: Nobody is arguing with that. MR.NEARY: But the hon. gentleman does not have the courage to say that Mr. De Bane's policy is wrong. He says it is his advisors. MR.MORGAN: He is your colleague. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the hon . gent~eman says Mr.De Bane's advisors are wrong. Now we know why we do not have any provincial fishery policy. The hon. gentleman listens to ~is advisors too much. It is the minister who pioneers policy .

It is the minister who has to accept the responsibility, the blame or the credit for his policies, and not his advisors. And it is a cowardly thing to say, Mr. Chairman, very cowardly, that it is his advisors who are wrong . It is the minister who is wrong and not his advisors. Just the same as that minister over there was wrong when he was in the rickshaw 2178

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 810 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: in Tokyo with Mr. De Bane and they talked about the salmon fishery in Newfoundland and decided that he would go along with allowing two weeks to be whipped off the salmon season. My hon. friend from Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) should be up, leap to his feet on this matter,because his salmon fishermen are goiny to be in trouble. The member for Burgee - Bay d' Espoir (Mr. Andrews). and Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Stewart). and Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews1.

Now, Mr, Chairman, let me say :-this that I am prepared to put my two telexes on the table of the Hous ·e.- it would seem to me that the han. gentleman does not even have his written yet - March 8th over a Jl!Onth_ ago and today, ve ·ry strongly worded telexes not ~amby-pa~hy or wishy ... washy, very strongly worded. And I ask the Page to lay them on the table of the House. Mr. Chairman, r am going to switch now to anoth.er matter t.hat I raised earlier today and it is the matter of record unemployment in this Province. I questioned the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) as to what specific programmes the administration has to dea.l with the record unemployment in this Province, and the hon. gentleman stood up and my ears nearly dropped off when r heard what he said. He said, •oh, . we have been busy over here for the past fourteen years trying to clean up the mess th.e Liberals left behind', In the last fourteen years -they have not developed'one policy or one programme of their own. They have not had one original i~ea of their own. They have shut down industry after industry.

And the only answer r could get from the hon. gentleman was that th:ey !:'rave be .en busy cleaning up, and he then went on to say that this minister and that minister and this mini·ster were goi:ng to create jobs for our unemployed. Well, Mr. Chairman, let me tell the House what 2179

April 9., 19.84 Tape No. 810 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: the unemployment figure was. The mernner for Mount Scio (Mr. ~arryl might be interested in this because I believe he was in law school at th.e time. In 19-66 th .e hen. gentleman was i~ law · school, the unemployment rate in New-foundland was · 5.5 per cent. r-n 19.72 the unemployment rate took a sharp increase 9.. 2 per cen.t ._ r--:'len the government changed on January 18, 19.72, our unemployment rate in this Province was 9_.2 per cent, Well 1what was it in 19.75 1three years after the Tories took over? :rt was· 14 per cent. And what is it today, . Mr.

Chairman? :rt is a whopping 23,3 per cent. we have a total provincial labour force of 214,00.0 and the total nu~er employed is 164,00.0 - 23.3 per cent. We are worse off now because of the . gravity of the situation that we wez>e i:n the depression years 1 mo:tte N·ewfoundlanders unemployed than in the depression years. Statistics Canada say so,ooa were unemployed. we happen to think it is closer to 100,000 because an awful lot of Newfoundlanders have given up looking for jobs. They · have given Uj? going aro.und, going down to the manpower office and regis -tering for employment .

They have just given up,period, So the figure :i:s closer to 10 .0 'a.ao we think 1-pro.b.ably about 4S: per cent of people available and a.ble to work in this · Province are unemployed and 21f ao.o. or 25 f 000 -are in the younger age bracket,hetween the ages of; sixteen and twent~four 1 and i:t is· shameful that they s·hould be unemployed at a crucial ti'rne rn their life . when they should be working. Now 1 Mr. Chai:rrnan,, how· did the Tories celebrate fourteen years of doom and gloom, of clos•i'ng down industry·, one: industry · ai;tel; anotheT? How · dbd they celebrate this horrendous track record?

Well 1 they deci'ded Saturday night that they would t.hrow a party ·, Mr. Chai'rrnan • 2180

April 9, 1984 Tape 811 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: They would have a party to celebrate five years of the present administration governing this Province. Mr. Chairman, how could they sit down in all conscience and celebrate something when they know the Province is on the brink of economic and financial ruin? MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Manpower. MR. DINN: Order, ·please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. The hon. Minister of Labour and Mr. Chairman, every time the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) rises to his feet and talks about something and uses statistics 1then one has to dig into the files and dig up a few of these statistics, because you have to have something to compare with just to see what really is the case in Newfoundland today as it was when the hon. member was a minister. MR. WARREN: l!im. CHAIRMAN: for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: MR. CHAIRMAN! MR. WARREN: in,for·Heaven's sake. MR. CHAIRMAN: not gone the three minutes yet. On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of orde~, the han. member A quorum call. A quorum call, you say? There is nobody here.

Bring somebody Call in the members. Is it agreed to start? We have SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. CHAIRMAN: agreed to continue? SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR. CHAIRMAN: Manpower. There is a quorum present. Is it Agreed. Agreed. The han. Minister of Labour and 2181

April 9, 1984 Tape 811 PK - 2 MR. DINN: So, Mr. Chairman, what we really have to do when the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), as I was saying before,starts talking about statistics, really what we have to do is compare what is happening. He used the one figure about the unemployment rate,and that is an accurate figure according to Stat~ Canada, and ·I do not think there is anybody who can be proud of the fact that we have over 20 per cent unemployment rate in this Province. But what are we comparing it to? The hon.

Leader of the Opposition harkens back to the great days _prior to 1971 and says that the unemployment rate at that point .'. in time was 5. 8 per cent. But really what _you have to do,in order to do a complete analysis of the figures,is say how many people are capable of being in to the labour force. And of that number of people 1 how many people worked. And if you do that 1we had 42.2 per cent was the employment rate. In other words,people did not bother to look for jobs. The other factor that you have to look at is what happened to the labour force as it grew?

Well 1 what happened to the labour force as it grew 1 and the han. member will undoubtedly go to Stats Canada, but he can harken back to 1969-1970 and he will find that 7,000- to get the figure accurate now- 7,734 Newfoundlanders· left the Province. MR. WARREN: MR. DINN: was no hope here. MR. WARREN: MR. DINN: MR. WARREN: MR. DINN: the high unemployment rate Wha:t for? Just got out of the Province, there When was that? In 1970-1971. Just left? Wel~now in 1983 1 he is comparing this year so we have · to compare what 2182

April 9,1984 Tape 811 PK - 3 MR. DINN: happened before. Now the hon. member is interrupting. He will have ten minutes after I am finished. I just want to make sure that people are aware of what we are comparing here. So as the labour force gre~ and it grew by about 8,000 a year, 7,000 of those people left the Province. They went to Toronto or Alberta or to the United States looking for work because there was no hope here. You had the John Doyles corning in and getting $119 million to stick in their back pocket to go over to Europe to peddle a linerboard rnill 1 khat is what you had.

There was no such thing as money for job creation .~ 1 You got 500 jobs constructing, - MR. WARREN: How many left in 1972? MR. DINN: The hon. member is interrupting. I have asked for silence because I want to make sure - MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. DINN: - he is clear about the figures. And he is out of order in the House. But the fact of the matter is that 7,000 Newfoundlanders in that year left the Province. They had no hope of anything .

Now they had the odd hope when the former, former, Premier would stand on his pedestal and say, 'We are going _to build a linerboard mill.' Well,who would not build a linerboard mill rf somebody carne along and said,' ttere is $119 million, . go out and build a linerboard mill. And if you lose any money on it 1we will pay that to you, so you have n~ worries about losing money,and if you make the rnoney,well,you can buy it from us for $1.' And that is what happened in the linerboard case, ~hat is what happened in the Corne By Chance refinery case, that is what happened in those cases.

In the case of the Upper Churchill 1he said,~·ou can have all of the water rights. Develop it. We will get a few jobs, and 1thank God 1I hope you will make a few dollars for the Province.' so 2183

April 9, 1984 Tape 811 PK - 4 MR. DINN: what did we get out of that? After we paid $167 million to buy back some of the rights, we get about $16 million a year,which is not enough to pay the interest on the loan we got ·for the Opper Churchill. And the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has the nerve to get up in this Bouse and say what are we doing? 21~4

-· April ~, 1984 Tape 812 EC - 1 MR. DINN: Just to compare now, 'This is the worst time,' he says, 'since 1932 ', v'7ell, the employment figure for last year, which is the latest Statistics Canada employment figure, is 42.6 per cent. That is better than any year recorded by Statistics Canada. l966 was 42.2 - now this is sucposed to be the .. .. - worst - 1967 was 42.3, 1968 was 41.2, 1969 was 40.5.

So the employment rate, the people who could go to work versus the people who went to work, in this drastic situation that we have now there are more working than there were in those years; plus the fact that when a person became ready to go to work, was available to go to work, the labour force did not increase. What happened was 7,000 people left the Province. So how many people left the Province last year? Well, a lot of people left and a lot of people carne back, but the net figure shows that there are 800 more people in than out. 1\N HON • ~q;~EP.: Now, 1969, 1970 - MR. WARREN: How· many went out? MR.

DINN: Listen! The han. merr~er is going to get a bit of an education here and I am giving it to him in English, I know it is hard for him to under- stand everything. In 1969 we are talking about 7,000 people moving out. The employment rate of the people who could go to work versus the people who worked was lower than it is now, and this is supposed to be the worst, that is number two. Number three, people now are not moving out of the Province. They talked last year about a resettlement programme to Alberta. rrell, they are not moving to Alberta, they are moving back. So what happened in the last month?

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) jumped up on his feet today in Question Period, he had something! Statistics Canada 2185

April 9, 1984 Tape 812 EC - 2 MR. DINN: put out a figure. What was the figure? What was the figure that Statistics Canada put out? The figure that Statistics Canada put out was this: We had 6, 000 more jobs in !·1arch than in February. Well, what does that mean? It does not mean that the unemployment rate went down, it ac~ually went up, it was over 20 per cent. And why was that? That was because the labour force grew faster than the jobs. MR. TULK: The number of jobs (inuudible) • MR. DINN: five minutes. Mr. Chairman, I have had about The han. the member for Foga·(~x.

Tulk) 1 who apparently does not know any of the rules of the House, breaks them all the time, cannot sit in his seat and listen. MR. SIMMS: He is only a rookie here. MR. DINN: He is only a rookie in the House. He is the president of the party, he writes the Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa (Mr. De Bane) and they will not listen to him. He sits in the House of Assembly and interrupts and breaks the rules all the time. Of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) he says, 'You are doing nothing for the fishery.' The Minister of Fisheries several weeks ago went out to Fogo and paid $1 million to keep the Co-op alive out there so his fishermen would have a place to sell their fish, !1r. Chairman, and he says, 'They are doing nothing for the fishery.' The member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) gets up and says, 'They are doing nothing; they are closing hospital beds,' Mr. Chairman - MR. TULK: MR. CHAIRMAN (Av lward): the member for Fogo. On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. On a point of order, the han. 2186

-. ------- -- April 9, 1984 Tape 812 EC - 3 MR . DINN: - and we build ou .r first hospital in Port aux Basques. And now the hon . the member for Fogo (~tr . Tulk) cannot take it and he is rising on a point of order which will be ruled no point of order . MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! Order, please! MR . TULK: Mr . Chairman, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) is - I think it is unknowingly - misleading this House when he says that the provincial Ministe .r of Fisheries (Mr. Morga .

n) paid $1 million to keep the Fogo Island Co-op going. As a matter of fact , they have not paid anything , all they have done is guaranteed a loan, which is appreciated on Fogo Island; but do not try to make believe that you are passing out gifts and money to Fogo Island , that is mis ­ leading this House . MR. DINN : Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAI!U<!AN : Order, please! To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. 2187

--- --- ---- -- April 9, 1984 Tape No. 813 NM - 1 MR. DINN: To that point of order, the han. member knows that if the Fogo Co-op did not get the loan guarantee from this government it would not be open. Now that is what it· means . It saved the jobs for the people in the co ~op out in Fogo and that is the point that I was making and the hon. member knows that. He knows I was making some good points in the House and it was only a point of interruption,which is out of order 1 and indeed it is no point of order at all. MR. CH .hlRHAN (Ay lward ) : Order, please!

To that point of order, -I have heard enough arguments on that point of order. There is no point of order, merely a clarification on behalf of the han. member for Fogo. The han. Minister of Labour and Manpower . MR. DINN: Do I have a minute left, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: About a minute and a half. MR. DINN : Mr . Chairman, so I make the following points. Number one, - MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr .

Chairman, the han. gentleman in his statement over there referred ·to the hospital in Port aux Basques,and I can only say to the han. gentleman that it is due to the hard work of the member and the hospital committee , But let me ask the han . gentleman this~ is the han. gentleman aware that any government worth its salt would have put up a loan and guarantee for the Fogo Co-op? Any government! They did not give them anything. 2188

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 813 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Is the han. gentleman not aware that any government would have done the same thing to save t',~t co-op in Fogo? Or is the han. gentleman saying that it is the only government over there that would do it? He should go back and look at the record over the last thirty-five years in this Province. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : of order, there is no - MR. DINN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! To that point To that point of order, The han. Minister of Labour and Manpower, to that point of order. MR.

DINN: · Now obviously there is no point of order and I would be giving some credibility to the hon. member if I said the·re was. There is ~o point, of order but the hon. member is attempting to kill my time in the House because I only have a minute and a half l~ft. ae stood up in this House for ten minutes, I shot down every argument that he had. The member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) interrupted, he could not take the truth. The member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) interrupted about the hospital, ~he first hospital that we built in our five year programme was the hospital that we built in Port aux Basques, so there is no bias there. So, Mr. Chairman, it was just a point of interruption. They cannot take the truth. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, I rule there is no point of order. The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower's time has elapsed. The han. member for Torngat Mountains:. 2188

·---------- ----- April 9, 1984 Tape No. 813 NM - 3 MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, I just tried to listen to the han. Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn), and if there was ever a minister who tried to blindfold the people in this Province the minister has been trying to do it for the last two and a half years. The minister knows that the unemployment rate in this Province is getting worse and it is thanks to this government that we have such a high unemployment rate in this Province.

And the minister just now got up on his feet and he "started talking about the Upper Churchill; he started talking about the linerboa~d -mill. All I could say is God bless the Premier of the day who had the intestinal fortitude of making sure as many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians went to work as could go to work. Because, Mr. Chairman, since that han. gentleman left power in 1972 1all we have seen in this Province is a downward trend.And for some reason this government figure that people should not go to work.

So what they did was close down the linerboard .nill, they sold out to John 'crosbie. we have to blame John Crosbie, Mr. Chairman, for the demise of people not going to work in this Province, for people not finding employment. Mr. Chairman, on the Upper Churchill, I believe the han. Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) at the time when the deal was made was in the House 1 is that right my han. leader? MR. NEARY: aR. WARREN: Oh,absolutely~ Leader of the Opposition. He \'las the Leader of the Opposition at the time when the Upper Churchill deal was signed. MR. ~TEARY : He voted for it. HR.

WARREN: - and he was one of the main persons, the Leader of the Opposition, and I believe the other roember was the Hinister of Social Services (!~r. Hickey) . Was he there? 2190

April 9, 1984 MR. NEARY: MR. WARREN: . ~---otZ,---·--· --' -·· Tape No. 813 Yes, he vot.ed for :it, too. He was there also. And the NM - 4 former member for St. John's centre, I beli.eve, Ank Murphy, was he there? MR. NE.ARY: MR. WARREN: Yes, and he voted for it. That is rlght •. So those are the three han. members 1 on the Opposition side at the time, agreed with the Upper Churchill. Because 21 g 1 .-:-.·-:·.-. ----- -

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 814 SD - 1 MR. WARREN :' · they agreed with the Upper Churchill the same as the han. minister today, if he had his way, would agree with the Lower Churchill. They would agree beca~se_they w~nt to see people in Newfoundland and Labrador employed. That was the mc_.~n reason, Mr. Chairman. And you can sav what you like that Mr. Smallwood took every gamble . in the wrld, he lost many and hewn a few, but one thing~ can say about the hon. Premier that we have today is that he will not lose very many attempts, h.e will not lose very many because he has not tried either one yet.

How can you lose any when you have not even tried? Maybe I should correct myself. The Premier tried once and he succeeded,unfortunately for the Newfoundlanders and Labradorlan, he succeeded on April 6th in bringing forty-four Conservatives into this House. He succeeded, he manipulated the people of this Province. MR. TOBIN: When? MR. WARREN: On April 6, 1982. And the hon. member for Burin -Placentia West (~r. Tobin) was one of the fortunate ones who came in on the coattail of the hon. Premier. I would say, Mr.

Chairman, that the han. gentleman from Burin -Placentia West will go just as fast on the premier'·s coattail. He will go out just as fas-t as he came in because all we need is the Premier to call an electi:on any time • Let us face it, Mr. Chairman, the han~ member from Placentia (Mr. Patterson}, he just now said we want .Richard Cash.:!-:n on this side. Mr. Chairman, we do not care if there is Richard Cashins or Christine Fagans or the H'arry Steeles,. we do not care who they are as long as they are figh.ti.ng Newfoundlanders and people who are going to fi·ght for the rights of the people.

That is the kind of people we want. We do not want someone to . ' run this· Province like the Premier is running it. We do 2192

April 9, 1984 Tape No. 814 S'D .,.. 2 MR. WARREN: not want a Minister of ?isheries to go up to Ottawa and get a deal and come back and the Premier will say, no, it is no good. We do not want a Minister of Fisheries who has · to be beckoned to. we do not want . a Minister of Fis ·heries to come into this Hous-e and not te:ll the truth which he did today, Mr. Chairman. Listen .,. r-tr, Chairman, as · far as I: a.rn concerned it is not correct a.n.d 1 Mr. Chairman, furth .ermore if I: said the Minister of Fisheries (_Mr.

Morgan I did not tell the tr ·uth I' withdraw· · it,but he did not tell the whole truth, However. Mr. Chairman, . to continue on ~y trend of thought, since I saw the member for Burin - Plac;entia west CMr. Tobinl_ was · go .ing to get up on a point of order ,so to save time I: am sure I can continue. SO~ H.ON'.MEMBE'RS ·: Oh, oh .• MR .. WMUmN: The hon , member for Conception Bay South (Mr. BUtt[ 1I' should telt hi~ that ±n all fairness to him that one of his ' strongest supporters, one of his most vigorous: organ±ze't's is now out to get him. So h.e may as well be prepared. Anvwav ., Mr.

Chairman, I apoligize the hon. members took ~e off my train. ·of thought. Let us go back and look at the jobless rate in the Province. Now the han. members are representing forty-four districts on that side of the House 1 and just look at the jobless rate in Bonavista North, a ~ember on the government si-de. Look at the job'le.ss ' rate ±n BUrin "'"' Placentia West and compare it to three years ago when they had a Liberal member down there, See , what a difference . there was. So you see, Mr.

Chairman , i:-t all boi:ls down to that the people have been fooled, they have been fooled, completely blindfolded by th .e Premier and now you listen to the 2193

April 9,1984 Tape No. 815 ah-1 MR.WARREN: Open Lines in the morning, you read the newspapers, you go our around the bay and you talk to them, you go down to the Board of Trade, you go down to the Newfoundland I Hotel, wherever you go everybody is saying, When can we get rid of this government? 1 In fact- 1I had a call the other evening from Bonavista and, Mr. Chairman, what he said was,'How/can we get rid of this government? t" Can you fellows call an election?' I only wish that we had the same kind of rules in Newfoundland as they have in the United States.

I only wish that the Premier could be only elected the same as the President of the United States-for. only two terms, four year a term, eight years maximum. I would say the Premier now probably would be looking for the job his brother got 1 because by now I am sure he would be prepared to look for another job because he would know that the people would be so sick and tired of him that they would have to get rid of him. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I know the hon. member forBaie Verte-White Bay(Mr.Rideout) may get up and say ·a few words about the employment rate in Baie Verte-White Bay,and I "-"i~l say it is one of the few districts in this Province where.. we have seen 1 in the past two or three year~ surging employment, in the BaiQ Verte area,where the mines closed down 1and 1all of a sudden we have people employed and the mine was taken back again. The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) is right excited about this.

I should say he should be excited about this because 90 per cent of the money is federal money that has gone in there, in Baie Verte- White Bay. This is why people have gone back to work in Baie Verte-White Bay,because it is federal money going in to get the mine revitalized. This is why there is employment. 2184

April 9,1984 Tape No. 815 ah-2 MR. TOBIN: Who got that? MR.WARREN: Mr. Rompkey got it 1of course. You know who got it. And, Mr. Chairman, you know why the Marystown·Shipyard is going to stay going. MR.NEARY: down there, $14 million. MR. TOBIN: MR.NEARY: MR.TOBIN: MR. CALLAN: MR. WARREN: They bought the vessel How much? $14 million. Roger . and I say $19 million. Mr. Simmons to you. .Mr. Chairman, you can see that only for the federal government we would be a doomed we would be a goner. And the han. gentleman from Carbonear (Mr.

Peach) just came in and sat down.,and he is so scared over in Carbonear,with the upsurge of the Liberals in the poll over there,he may as well go back teaching. He may as well make sure he gets in contact with the school board over there as soon as he can because if the Premier calls an election he is a dead duck. MR. TOBIN: There is one other thing he can do; get so scared he will get some experience in real estate fast. MR.WARREN: Now, Mr. Chairman, if the han. member wants to talk about real estate,by all means 1 why not, because there is no problem there.

In fact 1 I have twenty houses for sale in Nain at $1.00 each that this government owns. If the hon.member wants to buy some houses,! have twenty.in Nain selling for $1.00 each. MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! The han. member's time has elapsed. 2195

April 9,1984 Tape No . 815 ah-3 MR .CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay has approximately three minutes . MR.RIDEOUT: Mr. Cha irman, that is just the .thing I wanted to speak about on the public record for the three or four minutes that are le£t. We have never seen the 2196

April 9, 1984 Tape 816 PK - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: likes of it, Mr. Chairman, what has happened in this House this particular session with the discussion at the estimates that had to be done here in Committee of the Whole. We have Consolidated Fund Services, Executive Council, and two or three others that must be done here on the floor of the House. Now what are we talking about? We spent the last two and ~ half or three weeks in Committee of the Whole here doing Consoldiated Fund Services. But what are we talking about, Mr. Chairman? Granted,you can raise any- MR. NEARY: The 'public debt. MR.

RIDEOUT: Yes, we are talking about $1.9 million under this head which is discretionary. The other $365 milliori under this head is statutory. There is nothing you can do about it no matter if God himself was here running the government. It is statutory. It is public debt, it is employment retirement programmes and things like that. · And the Opposi tion 1 so let it be noted, Mr.

Chairman, that out of all the discretionary money that the government is responsible for spending in Executive Council, in the Ombudmans Office, in the Auditor General's Office, in the Legislative vote, out of all of those several millions of dollars, the Opposition have taken whatever time was available , however many 1hours - I do not know, I did not check with the Table -but I know · it was several hours the Opposition have taken talking about a discretionary vote of $1.9 million. Now that is what they have done. And, Mr. Chairman, it is a crime to the taxpayer of this Province.

It is a crime that not one question was asked about spending in Executive Council. Nothing was asked about what the Ombudsman was doing with the several million dollars that goes down to keep his office going 1or nothing was asked about the Auditor General, or nothing was asked about the thousand and one other things for 2197

April 9,1984 Tape 816 PK - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: which there are several millions of dollars provided in those heads that must be debated and passed here on the floor of this House. Mr. Chairman, it is a crime. I will say that the Opposition have let down the people of this Province. They have let them down ba9-1y. They have refused to debate the estimates that are to be debated in Committee of the Whole on the floor of the Houser and that will get out. They spent all of their time,the last several hours,talking about $1.9 million. That is the only discretionary money that is in this $365 million.

All the the rest is statutory, All the rest is taken care of by statutes of this House. All the rest, no matter if they were over here or no matter if anybody was over here,would have to be provided anyway because it is statutory financing. It is statutory. There is nothing you can do about it. And they are taking all of the time of the House just to t.alk about $1.9 million. They have taken the last several weeks just to talk about $1.9 million. They have not asked anything on the Executive Council.

They have not asked anything on all the other several millions that are going to go now, I suppose thirty seconds time, that are going to go. Mr. Chairman, what we got left? We have nine hours Concurrence Debates that. is what we have left, when you cannot get into an individual head and talk about a particular item. Those items were to go head by head in this House. And it is unfair, it is a total dereliction of duty that the Opposition did not make sure that every head that was to be debated on the floor of this House was debated. Then, Mr.

Chairman, you had them making weird cries about wanting to take all of the estimates back on the floor of this House. And I saw that~ I saw it one year in the seventy­ five hours one year, Mr. Chairman, we did two departments and started the third. I hope it never happens again. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward} Order, please! 2198

April 9, 1984 Tape 816 PK - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! On motion 1.1 through 1.2.1.05 carried. -: -~ __ .. -- - - ·- On motion Head I - Consolidated - ----& Fund Services , carried. On motion 2.1.1.01 through 2.2.03. 01.02, carried. On motion Head II - Legislative, carried. On motion 3.1.1.01.01 through 3.3.2.01.06 carried. Qn motion Head III ~ ·Executive Council, carried. On motion that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, ~- Speaker returned to the Chair. 2199 .I .

April 9, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. AYLWARD: --·--... -----------'- Tape 817 EC -1 The hon. the member for Kilbride. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report the passing of Head I, Consolidated Fund Services; Head II, Legislative; Head III, Executive