'iOL. 3 PRELIMI:c:!.;>,.RY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOLJ: 3:00 p.~. - 6:00 p.~. TUESDAY, ~RCH 24, l98l :-JO. 16 .. .. . ' 'I

l<!arch 24, 1981 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. HR. SPEAKER (Hr. Simms): Tape 584 PK - 1 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS ;,!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. ~ffi. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, for the information of the House,I would like to report briefly on my meeting this morning 'N"ith the Federal Minister of Transport, the hon. Jean,;_ Luc Pepin. ~ffi. NEARY: I reported that two weeks ago. HR.

BRETT: Our discussions covered virtually every aspect of transportation in the Province with a view to putting in place an understanding regarding the :ederal government's involvement in the provision o£ transportation system improvements in Newfoundland and Labrador. We discussed in some detail the implementation of the container plan for the Newfoundland Railway. This initiati,re '.Vas identified in our study of railway operations as being an essential just step to ensuring the long-term viability of the railway. MR. NEARY: How many did you lay off? MR.

BRETT: In this context,I can welcome the announcement which Mr. Pepin made today regar ding the co~mitment of $50 million for this purpose. But, Mr. Speaker, I took the opportunity to re-emphasize to the minister that the other elements of our proposal for revitalization need to be addressed as ·well. And I understand that further discussions in this regard will be held between officials of the parties involved over the next few months. ''1 .. ''I ..

~!arch 24, 1981 Tape 584 PK - 2 MR. BRETT: rt~e briefly discussed th~ railway labour assistance programme which was concluded recently with the railway unions. I ~nderstand that a process of ' detailed discussions with the affected personnel is ongoing, and I would hope that these would result in fair and equitable treatment of those employees who are involved. This is, of course, essentially a matter which must be resolved between the employer and employees. I discussed at some length with Mr. Pepin the question of federal funding for continuation of the strenghtening programme for the Trans-Canada Highway.

And in this regard,I pointed out our needs in special circumstances. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Pepin was not in a position to confirm what funding would be available within this fiscal year, although the question is still being considered, at least he said it was, within the federal system. I received an indication from Mr. Pepin that the federal government is prepared to continue in this fiscal year the programme of providing airstrips in communities in Coastal Labrador. Mr.

Pepin left me with a draft document dealing with transportation activities in Newfoundland financed by the federal government and he invited our comments on the paper. It was left with us, r-rr. Speaker, you know, we had no time to- we just saw the cover,that is all - so it is impossible for me to comment on it at this time. Of course, my officials and myself, we will examine this document · and I will then be bringing it before my colleagues in Cabinet and after its consideration I will make our views known to the federal minister . ., ~ ~ !. I V 1.,. -, ''I .. .. , ''I

March 24, 1981 Tape 584 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER ()1r . Simms): )!R. BENNETT : The hon . ma~er for St . Barb e. Thank you, z.Ir. Speaker. ~L~ . NEARY: !t was not a very fruitful meeting . MR . BENNETT: I would like co have had a copy of that so I could o: sort of run over it , Mr. Speaker, to ~ake a comment . I hope ~~ere is noc too much of a ~taticn ~etween the minister on our level, the provincial leve~ and the feeeral level. Earlier in the year I was told from a very reli~le resource , Mr. Speaker, a representative :rom O ttaw~that they had to come down here and practically beg this government to submit their plan s 1cc:: ,. ':I •. ..

~larch 24, 1981 Ta9e )lo. 585 SD - _ MR. T. BENNETT: ~or the upcoming year for agreements with Ottawa for funding. This funding, or the ''.vish list' , apparently had not arrived in Ottawa up to the 15th or middle of November. All other provinces, Mr. Speaker, had subrni~ted t~eir 'wish list' ,as it is now getting to be k:wwn, to Otta':la in the middle of July.

It looks ~o me now as t~oug~ the delay that is being caused , ana I can only assuzr,e i ~ is being caused by the inaction of the government on cur level here, the provincial level 1 the inaction of this gcvernTI'.ent to submit to Ottawa its prograi!'.TI'E of spending and the neecis of the department. It seems to me.the delay being experienced by Ottawa is going to run head on and certainly not r'-ln parallel with their budgeting for the year, Mr. Speaker, will cause adverse effects. and unC:.oubtec~ly, MR. SPEAKER (Simms): ~·L"-. STIRLING: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the Leader of t~e Oppos i ~i o n. Thank you, ~r.

Speaker. Undoubtedly all membe rs of this House are aware that Newfoundland Hydro is again looking for an 8 per cent increase. 1·ffi. NEARY: ~- STIRLING: What? They only made 512 million last year . And with the \ii!lister of :-lines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) not in his seat, in view of the fact that we are now getting first hand from the people in 3ellevue the fact that people just cannot exist, the•r just cannot continue on with these inc~easing cost~ in electricity an~ oil in the absence of the Minister of c1ines and :2:-J.erg: - : · . .;ct.:ld ask the Premier, has the Cabinet seen the ?resentation =ro w Hydro looking for this additional 3 ~er cent increase? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Pre~ier. PRE:-IIER PECKFORD: Mr. Spea ker, -;,ve a..:-::-e a.r.v-a~e a..:;.d ha ~.=-e been talking some time ~ith obviously the =embe~s o~ ...

~larch 24, 1981 Tap~ No . 585 so - 2 E>R2:UER P2CK?ORD: ~eNfCundland anc Lab=ador nydro about their ?reposed application to the ?Ublic Utilities Board for ~ rate increase and therefore have been in ~ouch Nith them over the last several weeks on the matter . ~!r . Speaker, this 8 per cent increase that they are seeking 1as I had indicated, in their statauent yesterday, still means that the people of the Provi:1ce of Ne\.,rfoundland will have the lo west ele ctrical ?o•..;er rates in Eastern Canada .

And we would li.ke to think that that can be maintained over the long te~ ~ ut it is very difficult unless and until we get a bet~er deal on the U?pe r Churchill and get the Lower Churchill starte d right a• . .;ay. So the whole question of ?OWer r~ghts :or this ?articular year and the applicat~on for an increase only higr.lights and foreshadows the dila~ ~~d problem chat this ~r cv ince faces in che :uture if, in fact, we 1 =: ~ .. , .•· ,. ,.

!·larch 24, 1981 Tape No. 586 EL - 1 P~".UER PEC:-<FORD: are not able to get Gull Island, which is the preferred sight,or 11uskrat Falls going in the short term. If that is not -,:>ossible and cannot be arranged, then we \vill see from 1983- 84 onwards, major in- creases to reflect more expensive small hydro projects in the Province,plus more oil generated electricity at Holy- rood.

So, whilst nobody in this Province is happy with seeing "'"'Y increases in electrical rates, number one, it should be noted that even with this increase the consumers of electricity in the Province still will be lower than anywhere else and,secondly,it does provide an opportunity to foreshadow the whole idea of electrical power rates and the fact that a province that has all the resources that this Province has must still depend on oil for twenty-five to thirty per cent of its generation. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, :1r. Speaker . ~1R. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. STIRLDlG: Yes, Mr. Speaker • Sooner or later in this House the government is going to have to make up its mind whether or not it supports the world price of oil. Maybe the Premier, as a supplementary, can tell me if Canada had followed his recommendation of world prices or near world prices for oil _. and since Hydro says that. the main concern, the main cause of this eight per cent increase is the cost of oil, if the Pr~~ier had his way what would be the cost to the consumer today instead a£ the eight per cent if he had the world price of oil being used? ~1R. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, if the Premier of this Province had his way, Gull Island would be going which would guarantee lower prices and no oil. " 1 ''I '1 ..

!1arch 24, 1981 Tape NO. 586 EL - 2 SOME HON. ~1E1'•IBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: If the Premier of this Province had his way ,we would not be, with the kind of resources and water we have in this Province,having one ounce of oil going towards generating electricity. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Well, why have you not done it? PREMIER PECKFORD: And the onus is on those who - MR. NEARY: Why have you not got the Lo wer Churchill goi~g?

PREMIER PECKFORD: - the onus is on those who have the jurisdiction and the power to ensure that we can begin the Gull Island project so that we can phase out Holyrood and be dependent totally upon a one hundred per cent hydro generated electrical system. MR. HODDER: Do it! PREMIER PECKFORD: It has nothing to do with the price of oil. It has to do with the commi~ment that we are equal to other Canadians, that is the commitment. MR. NEARY: Do not be so foolish. That is a red herring. PR.EtHER PECKFORD: That is where the Liberal Party and the Leader of the Opposition have got to answer their questions. MR.

NEARY: A red herring. SOI-IE HON. ME.Ift..BERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, as the y know on the other side,they do not have to answer questions and the ques- tion they did not answer again witn a r~d herring. Mr. Speaker, the Premier is again misleading this House. MR. NEARY: Right on. .... - .... ~~ :~ l..,j .., .., ., .. ,

,. ~·ia r ch 2;; , 1981 Tape NO . 586 EL - 3 :•lR . ST!RLL~G: The Premie r has again ~ is l ed this Hous e. S0 1<IE i:IO~ . :>!EHBERS : Oh, oh ! MR . HARSHALL : ~r . Spea ker . Oo a point of ord er . ~ - SPEAKER (SL1uns ): Order, pleas e! The hon. the Pre sident of the ,, Council . i'1R . MARSliALL : ! t has been rulecl by Your Honour that one is not allowed to in sinuat e that a person ha s mi sled the House . It is contrary to parliamentary prac - tice .r refer Your Honour to both Beauch es ne again, page 108 a~d page 109 . The hon .the Leader of the Op pc s i~ion is not ~ermitted to make an insinuation chat anybody in tee ~ou se is wi sl e a ti~; t ~ e ~o use . ''1 ,. ~ c- ' L. I - ... I

.~1arch 24, 1981 MR. S. NEA..R.Y: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) meroner for LaPoile. 11R. S • NEA..R. Y : Tape No. 587 1): •! - 1 To the point of order, ~ r. Sneaker . To the point of order, the ~on. ~1r. S]Jeaker, mv understandinq is, Sir, that misleading- if you do not use the phrase 'intentionally' or'deliberately misleading' that 'misleading' is now parliamentary and has been parliamentary since - what year? MR. L . TH0~1S : 1958. MR. S. NEARY: 19~8, Your Honour, 'misleading' has been a parliamentary term that has been accepted according to Beauchesne since 1958. And I am sure mv hon. friend has the reference there.

AN HON. MEMBER: Page 112. MR. S. NEARY: Page 112, Your Honour . "LR.. SPEAKER: With respect to the ?Oint of order, Beauchesne does point out in two sections, one is on page 108 which says that'mislead' is unparliamentary, one is on page 112 which says that since 1958 it has been ruled parliamentary. My interoretation of that, in consultation with other authorities and other jurisidictions, is that depending on the context in which the words are used it has been ruled parliamentary on some occasions, other occasions unparliamentary.

I have certainl y ruled on occasio ns i n the past that the term 'mislead' or 'a member is misleading the House' is unoarliamentary. I Drefer not to hear it so to resolve the matter maybe the hon. Leader of the O ooos i ti~n (Mr. Stirling) could withdraw those remarks an d q et on ·,.; it~ his question. SO~~ HON. ~E~~ERS: The hon. Leader of the O~]Josition. Oh, oh: .. , ., .. , ··, .. , •,

~arch 2~, 1981 Ta9e No. 587 DtV - 2 ~!..~. L . STI:U.I)<G : :-tr . Speai<er, I used a 1,-crd ~!'lat my colleague s assured me •.-ras acceptable by Beauchesne and that \vas •t~hy I used the '"ord . I \vas trying to Eind the strongest •.•ord that I could find - ~~ - SPEAKE~ (Simms ) : Order, ;:>lease~ Again 1 comments a=ter ruli~gs are not in order either . I would ask the hen . Leader of the Oppositio n (Mr . Stirling} if he ~;ould ,.,i thdraw and then get on with his q~estion . ~1~ . L . STIRL!~G : '1r . Speaker.

I wi thdravl the ~o;ord 'mislead' . ~,d I would like to search for another word which expresses in the stronge st terms the inconsistency that the Premier is using, ~r .

Speaker , when on one hand he locks for world price s and then on the other ~and - ~aybe the Premier 1vou ld like to attempt. in the same sense ,to exolain how it is that he ju st gave the impression that if we hac the potver from l.'tuskrat Fal ls or Gull Isl and that people somehow •11ould be saving :noney ;.;he."l he knows - and ! would ask him to ex;Jlain -t!lat the powe r ~rom Gull Island and ~uskrat, based on t:heir ow-n latest prOJections, t·tonld ·ca:.1se our present rates to double. The . landed cost of tA.uskra t and Gull lvOUld not be 8 per cent , it would ~ost it to double .

And it has to co with the i~9ressicn that the Premier tries to create that something \1hich is =ive years down the road is affecting somethL~g - the s~ace of the :nis:na:tagement of this Province . 'la ybe n.e could explaih that? .<1: ,.. - - _, - ., .. , •· •:I •·

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 588 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling), was given the liberty of being able to go into almost a speech before he asked his question an~ then when - MR. STIRLING: Now he is criticizing you, Mr. Speaker. PREMIER PECKFORD: - the Leader of the Opposition got arouna to asking the question he was asking for an ex- planation. So I hope I will be allowed some liberty in answering what was a speech and then a question which I was asked to explain. Now number one - MR.

STIRLING: You think you can (inaudible) . PREMIER PECKFORD : - Mr. Speaker, let it be recorded, Mr. Speaker, that the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and the Leader of the Opposition think that the Upper Churchill- the Lower Churchill, is a red herring. Let it be recorded that the Leader of the Opposition is not in- terested in the Lower Churchill. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon •. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

STIRLING: - the Premier knows very well that he was asked a question about oil and pulled in this red herring of the Upper Churchill and now he is trying to divert attention from the fact that this government not only agrees with Newfoundland Hydro, Mr. Speaker, but he is actually - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! 1 .. - ~ ~ .. ~I"' ., .. , ' l .. , ' ·I

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 588 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. STIRLING: - encouraging world prices. MR. MARSHALL : To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. STIRLING: To the point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is not a point of order. It is an interruption of an answer to a question. It is an interruption of the proceeding of the House - SOME HON. ME~BERS: Hear, hear! !-'I..R. MARSHALL: - and it is a transgressing on the privileges of the members of this House by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling). SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: Interruptions in debate are not allowed. Legitimate points of .order are allowed, Mr. Speaker. By any stretch of the imagination that is not a legitimate point of order and the hon. Leader of the Opposition should not attempt to take the House on his back in order to disagree with an answer that he does not - disagree with a truth that he does not like revealed to hi.rn. Ai'l' HON. MEMBER: He cannot take-the heat. MR. SPEAKER: >H th respect to the point of order,I would rule there is no point of order but perhaps a difference of opinion. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker. So first of all let it be recorded that the Leader of the Opposition is opposed to 1 ~.., I l !.o ' 'I ' I ' 'I

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 588 NM - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: hydro developments in Labrador. Number two, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON • ME!.ffiERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAI<ER (Simms): Order, please~ A point of order. The han. Leader of the Opposition. 1-'!R. STIRLING: The Premier has now gone farther, Mr. Speaker. He is imputing motives and he is now attempting to mislead. He is now saying something which he knows is not correct and he is . imputing motives to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) which he cannot do. MR. !11\RSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL : on that point of order, Your Honour has ruled with respect to the use of the word mislead and I suggest to Your Honour that the context in which the han. member, the hon. Leader of the Opposition has made reference to the word "misleading" was to definitely imply that the han. the Premier was motivated by stating a false- hood. The word nmislead" was followed with certain qualifications which give this definite connotation and I submit, Mr. Speake::, to you_ that this has to be -withdrawn and it has to be withdrawn immediately. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: First of all that would be a different point of order. We are dealing with a point of order raised by the hon. Leader of the Opposition and if I heard it correctly it seems to be the same point of order that was raised just a mo-ment before. If that is not the case, then I will certainly reserve my ruling on it and have a look at Hansard. • j ~ ·- .,i ...

1-!a rc h 2~, 1981 :·1R • C>ll>_RS F.JI..LL : ?·!R. SP:t:_l\.KER (Sirnms) Council. Tape No. 588 NM - 4 Mr. Speaker, I now rise - The hen. President of the MR . .YLl\.RSHALL : - on the ?Oint of order, and I will not bore the House,as ~he hon. Leader of the Opposition ., -; ... ,.., .. , .. ,

::a:-ch 2-i, !.331 T;ce ):o . 389 .ll,.H-1 ~-!?.. . :-:.:..?..S?.?-.L~ : :.s =.c.:....;q I 'iill jus= takg :r.y co:::r:!e~ts as Oeir.g ;;r2se~ted as =eac as i-:. :·:e:-e ar.C .!'e -s:.;.b mit thsr:t to You~ Honour , ;:haL.. -:.!:e ~on . gentle.r:ta::. ·.-rhe~ ~e v;as get ~:.nc U? ar:C ~..l sl:-!C c.~e ·,.;orO t!':i.isls=.C', anC t..ite c.ont:.sxt ir: ·.·lhich he l!sed it ~,;a s ir;r9l.YL'1': - noc i::- :?lying bt.:t ai.mo s;: C.i::-act:ly sa ying :.ha-.: :.he hon. ?:::-e."":l:::.e :- •.o~e.s ~el:::.be::-a:.ely ~1s:~ac ~~ ~ ~r be~~q clacei~ = ~1 cc t~e ~ouse . And i:1 that O:!. -~ext , '-~r .

Speaker, ~ e ~as t.o ·.;:, ~!ld.:-a\•l -=~e:;' . :-!?.. .51?-=":l.J.::::?.. {S.:.~rr:s) : :·.'i.:..h :-es?eci;. to that point of or:::.e~ r ' .. ;ill =.-ese!:'~;e ~v .rt.!.:.i:1a en ~~at as -:.,rel.:.. ~c :::;;ec~ :iansard because I a.'!! so.r:-y :;: ;:!iC. -r-ot:. clear!.y ho;ar \>lhat ;::.e Leaeer o= chs O?po sition said . ~he hon . che Pre~ier. ?R.E.'HSR PSCK?CRD : r: I ca!l be !)ermi t tee , ~!.r . 5peecker , -:c cor.r:i:n:e : Xot only eoes it relace new to not wa ~~i~ g hyc=o cev;;lopme~ts in Labr:.cor, but r:r.e Leacer o: r::te Cp;>osi;::icn in his 9re-:ace ~o his r.u"" "''" ;_,..n a~d as a ?ar:. o: his ::;uesticn tal:.CaC. about -;;:::-: ·~e \•:as C?pcsed ;::o havir.q t:te price c: a bar=al o: 0il go ;:.o se ven::.y -:ive to eiqhc~· - .:ive 9er cent o: -:h·crlC p~i=:e . !:1 o~her t·lcrds , ~: saying ::.nat -:he LeaC.e= c: t~e C;::pc si!a o:~ is net on1.::,.. aqa.:.:1 st hydr':l C:-zvelc;;:rne::'lts in Labrador , he is t'!rai;;st che C.evelo?:n::1t of Hibern.:.a =.nd oi! anC q:ss c:: ~e =c-ase. ~= ~e.·.v.:ct.::'ld.:.and anC.

Lab::3.cio:.- , ~··L~ca;,;.se ::-·ou c~nr:c~ -de·/elcp i r,.;i=-.,:,ou~ "ci'".at. ki~C o: cc5;: . SOC •iE ~~N .:-:::::: IBERS : ?REMIER PECKFORD: ::P.ar , ~ear ! s~ ~ct cnly is the Leader o= :..':.: ::lppc sit.J. c:: a<;;ai:1s;: hycrc ::ie;:elo~ments i.:1 Labrador, he :.s acainst: o::sr.ore r:;il ar.C! -;-as f.eve:cpmer:ts c:: -:!1e =:as-= Coas-: ::;= :::ta !slar.c o: :>;e·., ·: o·Jr.cia:1ci . So I co r:cc · . ..r;,a:: :.:-.e LaaCar o£ ;:!"' .e Opposit1-on ',..rant s ;:o .::o .

JC ·-3S !".a ·.\·ar. r: -:o c:~se Ccv1r.~ ~::e ?ro-:;:.nce? - -:-:c :-tyee- C:v~lc?:nent:s . r:.o cil a~C ;-as C.et . ..-:=Lo?me~ts . .~.:1C. ~r~e:: ~h:. rc.: y, ~·!~. S?e.aXa:- , ~ .... -· ··lj .., .. , •. ,

March 24,1981 Tape No. 589 AH-2 PR~IER PECKFORD: I find it absolutely astoundinc- if not hilarious and amusing .if it was coming from somebody else - I found it astounding that the Leader of the Opposition would talk about Gull Island rates being double what they are on the Island. Does not the Leader of the Opposition understand that what we are talking about when we are talking about the development of the Lower Churchill is that by the time the Lower Churchill can be realistically developed there is no alternative generation source as cheap? SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING : MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Hear, hear! A ~upplementary,Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. Leader Mr. Speaker 1 I accept from the Premier his last assertion. Let me say so there is no doubt about order,that I entirely agree with him, that I am against,as every Newfoundlander should be against,going to world prices. And that is the inconsistency, Mr.

Speaker, and I asked the original question: Now in view of the fact that Hydro says that the only reason that they need this money, this eight per cent - and they may not need it again until 1983 possibly because there may be an election in 1982 1 but they do not need a change until 1983- 1-rill the gqvernment - and they say the main reason they need it is for the financial reputation of Hydro and in view of the fact that the Government of Canada has said that they will support - and this is why we are in favour of the development of either on the Lower Churchill - the Government of Canada will support their credit and it is the only way that the Lower Churchill can be developec is with their credit, will the Premier now exercise some influence and will the government exercise some influence 1 ~; ~ 1 ~.....~..

I ... ''I . ... ... .. ,

March 24, 1981, Tape 590, Page 1 -- apb MR. STIRLING: and require Newfoundland Hydro not to request this 8 per cent increase and to freeze electricity rates until 1983, because they do not need it? MR. SPEAKER(Sirnms): The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, obviously the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) did not read the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro statement that was issued yesterday.

He could not have read it, Mr.Speaker, because that statement indicated that one of the reasons - one of the reasons, not the only reason-one of the reasons for the 8 per cent application to the Public Utilities Board had to do with the escalating cost of oil that would be needed to generate electricity at Holyrood, and that the other reason was also, Mr. Speaker - MR. STIRLING: (inaudible) world prices.

PREMIER PECKFORD: - the other reason was to help payfor the capital cost of Hinds Lake, and that is contained in the statement by Newfoundland Hydro in its announcement yesterday, to go before the Public Utilities Board. That is the truth of the matter. It was not just because of oil escalation costs, it was also - whether the Leader of the Opposition likes it or not, you .still have to pay for hydro developments even though they are cheaper than the development of a Holyrood four or five station out there, so that there is more than one reason for the application to the Public Utilities Board. Now, Mr.

Speaker, besides that, besides trying to indicate to the Leader of the Opposition that his question was based on some lack of information, let me go on to indicate to him that this government here is a responsible government and it will try to pay its way, and to ensure that its Crown corporations pay their way so that this Province remains a financially 1679 .. 1 ''t .,, .. ,

March 24, 1981, Tape 590, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: viable Province, and a financially viable government so that we can continue to borrow money and to build other hydro power projects around the Province to give to Newfoundlanders the cheapest possible electricity. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! l1R. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. A suppla~entary. MR. STIRLING: Does the Premier now confirm then that Hydro, even in advance of going to the Public Utilities Board, has the support of his Cabinet to get this 8 per cent increase? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.· the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Obviously, again, the Leader of the Opposition does not understand the process - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, no~ No, no! PREMIER PECKFORD: Because it is only after public hearings are held, and interrogation and the closest scrutiny is given to the application by people independent of government, would government decide then as to whether this increase is justified or not. We are not going, Mr. Speaker, to predict whether they should or they should not. That is why we have established an application before the Public Utilities Board, so that an independent quasi - MR.

STIRLING: That is why you (inaudible.) . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, can I be heard in silence to respond? - so an independent quasi judicial-body can hear the evidence presented by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, to hear the evidence on the other side presented by the Federation of Municipalities, presented by the Consumers Association, presented by other groups. And after that scrutiny and analysis is done, then the Public Utilities Board, in the full light of all the 1;:: 8 n u ·...; .. , ''l •, .. ,

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:-larch 24, 1981 Tape No. 591 so - 1 ??.E~~liER PEC!ZFO:RD: a~alysis is done,that scrutiny ~s done, the Public Unilities Board makes a report to the Cabi~et and then at t~at time the government decides. c·!R. SPEAKER (Simms) ~lR. G. FLIGHT : The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans . Mr. Speaker, I will address my question to the Premier too, it is in keeping with the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro statement. And what I am wondering about, assuming that we accept that Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro justified their need for an increase of 8 per cent . I do not understand why c.ir.

Young Hould then go on to say that the 9eople of Newfoundland Hould have to pay $6.00 a month or accept an 8 per cent increase Hhen last year ~ewfoundland Light and Power increased their profit by 8 per cent, increased their revenue by 12 per cent. So let me ask the Premier, assu..1ning Ne1~foundland Hydro does need the 8 per cent and they will charge it to NeHfoundland Light, will the government intercede and refuse to allow Newfoundland Light to ;:Jass that extra cost on to the consumer in view of the profits they made last year and the increase in profit? c·!:R. S?E;c..KER: The hon. the Premier.

PRElU:S::<- PECKFORD: The member for vlindsor - Buchans does not understand the process either and somebody has got to qet together over there and try to - I 'tl'ish the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) would get together with some of his colleagues over there and explain the process that is in place.

After the Newfoundland and Labrador ~ydro goes through the application 0: OME HON. ~!EMBERS : We know. ?RD1IER PECKFORD: of the Public Utilities Board ~ased on what happens there then if they are to pass on any costs to :le 1tl:foundland Light, Newfoundland Light then must "'9?1J t:J the Public utili ties Board and be scrutinized. .">.nd O!"'.l:_' :;.:ter that has oeen done will there be any determination as to ~hether ~ewfoundland Light will make any addition charges ': .. ,

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 591 SD - 2 PRE!>!IER PECKFORD: or not. ·So that therefore we are talking in sort of a void because we have not had the benefit of that scrutiny, of that analysis and of that public hearing, which is obligatory. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. FLIGHT: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~lR. SPEAKER (Simms) Supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. ~~- FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, it must be the President of Hydro who is talking in the void. He said in his statement that increase that Hydro is ask~ng for will cost the Newfoundland consumer 8 per cent.

And obviously Newfoundland Light sells to the Newfoundland consumer , so why should he assume that Newfoundland Light will want an increase based on the profits they made last year? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. FLIGHT: that is a

preamble. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER : MR. FLIGHT: Question. I am not asking the question, Oh, oh! Order, please! The han. member has a supplementary . Supplementary, Mr. Speaker.- I will ask the Premier if this increase is going to apply to the commercial and :i,ndustrial users in this Provi·nc~ and then specifically will it apply to the electricity that ERCO buys from Hydro under the new contract? :1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Incredible, I find this absolutely amazing, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Young, the President and Chief Executive Officer of Newfoundland Hydro,issued a statement yesterdav. I have read the statement. AN HON. MEMBER: PREMIER PECKFORD: He was also on Open Line this morning. Thank you very much. And he was on Open Line this morning and I do not know where he is this 1 C:!:': ,_~.,;..,.. .. ,

1-larch 24, 1981 Tape No. 591 so - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: afternoon, he will be somewhere else tomorrmv and so on . SOME HON. ~!EMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD : But anyway, Mr. Speaker, now he has indicated a desire and intent .. , 1 S 2 L

.C•larch 24, 1981 Tape 592 PK - l :?R~UER PECKFORD: on behalf of that Crown corporation to make application to the Public Utilities Board. And then a=ter the Public Utilities Board has ruled,it will be decided whether it will be 8 per cent. Because !1r. Young says he >Vants an 8 per cent incrsase,does not mean that he is going to get an 8 per cent increase. So that therefore everything else is completely hypothetical until that point in time that Public Utilities Board has its hearing, makes it recommendations to Cabinet and then Cabinet makes a decision. That is nQmber one part of the question.

Number two part of the question, surely the member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight), a learned man in his own right, Mr. Speaker, a man who has been around this House of Assembly for the last several years, understands what we did a little while ago as it relates to the ERCO contract, one of the greatest achievements ever performed by a government in the last ten or fifteen years. SOHE HON. H:&'1BERS : Hear, hear! P~EMIER PECKFORD: Surely he was here in the Eouse that day, Hr.

Speaker, when we announced a new power contract with ERCO to up their rates from somewhere around two mils per kilowatt hour to eight,and then escalating each year thereafter until it reaches thirty mils._· So obviously, Mr. Speaker, the member for Windsor-Buchans did not hear well ihat day because he would have understood that we have developed and put in place a new power contract with ERCO which saves the Newfoundland taxpayer around $160 million. S01-1E HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1-!R. FLIGHT: :-1R. SPE_ZU<ER (Mr. Simms): member for Windsor-Buchans. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A final supplementary, the hon 1 ... ~ .­ - > ~ '- - ''I

March 24, 1981 Tape 592 PK - 2 HR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, we will see how hypothetical the 8 per cent increase is in the next month or two. The people of Newfoundland who pay the bills will see how hypothetical it is. But let me ask the Premier this, since he referred to the new ERCO contract.

When he made that statement in the House he also indicated, and he had indicated it p~ior to talking about ERCO while bringing in the new contract, that the oil industrial users, the paper companies , and those kinds of companies in the Province, who the Newfoundland people are subsidizing to a fe\v million dollars, that his government was looking at increasing the cost of energy to those various companies. Now possibly, Mr. Speaker, if that increase was put in place or had been put in place by now maybe this increase by Hydro could not be necessary.

I want to ask the Premier what the status of that negotiation is? Are we any closer to having the industrial users of electricity in this Province brought into line 1.,rith what it is costing this Province to generate electricity, and when can we expect an announcement on the new contracts? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Number one, Mr. Speaker, if I understand the member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr.

Flight) properly, what he wants to do is get out of debt with one company and go in with another .• In other words,if we have any saving, if we can reduce our $8 million deficit in one place, if we do not reduce it, if we reduce it by $2 million, we use that $2 million,which is still in deficit,to subsidize another part of the economy. So that therefore your deficit is still as great as it always was. That seems to me to be a crazy argument for trying to get on a financially sound basis. That is number one. 1 ~ 0 r '-- .... ~ ''I 'I ''I ''l

~!arch 24, 1981 Tape 592 PK - 3 ?RE.'iLER PECKFORD: Nun-.ber two , \ve are now, a."ld the Minister of !1ines and E.!'lergy (Mr . Barry) can elaborate on this better than I can, into negotiations \vith all other industrial customers in the Province to try to see ~~at the cost of power to them is not borne ~~ecessarily by the Newfoundland ta::,c;?ayer. And as these vario ,us agreements come into being, these new agreements , they will be announced in this han . House or in a.11 appropriate forum at the time the .final agreements have been reached. We are ve~J proud, ~tr .

Speaker , that in the last twelve months we have been able to renegotiate the ERCO power contract, able to renegotiate long-term concessions ~lith the for est compa.nie s. As 9art of our ongoing policy , the member for \vindsor - Buchans (~tr . Flight) will be surprised to hear 1St~ ·~1 ··1 .. .•· .•. .•.

~arch 24, 1981 Tape No. 593 EL - l P.RE~liER PECKFOP.D: over the next few weeks and months of other agreements entered into which protect the Newfoundland taxpayer and do something that has not been done in this Province for decades and decades. SOME HON. MEHBERS: ~1R. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Poile. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for La- ~. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transportation.

On !1arch the 19th, I as~ed the minister about the cost and the inform­ ation in connection ~ith tr.e low-bed and the other work that he has done by Highways equipment. .ie did not kno·., the cost on March the 19th even though he had written a cheque, so he told the House yesterday,on March the 17th. And the documents that were tabled, Mr. Speaker, I suspect are fake documents, but I would like to ask the hon. q2ntlema;·, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Shame! MR. NEARY: They are fake documents, i'lr. Speaker, they are fake. r1R. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The bon. gentleman, you know, made a statement that-I do not know if the hon. gentleman wishes to consider the import of it-but the statement is tc the effect that documents presented to this House were fake~ And this obviously, Mr. Speaker, is a matter that complet- ely offends the order and the privileges of this House.

I would refer to page 114 of Beauehesne , Statements By Mem­ bers, "It has been formally ruled by Speakers that a state­ ment by a member respecting himself and particularly within his own knowledge must be accepted, but it is not unparliamentary 1 ~ ~ ·- .. , .. , .. ,

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 593 E L - 2 YlR. 1:-IARSHALL: temperately to criticize these statements." Now, it is alright for the hon. gentleman to criticize in his statement but I suggest that it is completely unparliamentary, Mr. Speaker, for him to in­ sinuate that the hon. gentleman has presented a statement in this House which is a fake statement 1 which is incorrect and which is deceitful or dishonest 1which is in effect what the hon. gentleman is saying. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): To the point of order, the hon . the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, my learned friend from St. John's East (W. Marshall) has once again demonstrated the old saying that little learning is a very dangerous thing. He read part of the citation from Beauchesne;and he did what he has often done before I fear, he left out the relevant part. The sentence in its completeness, Mr. Speaker, reads

Section 322 which is found on page 114: "It has been formally ruled by Speakers that a statement by a member respecting him­ self', it does not refer to documents, ' respecting himself and particularly within hi~ own knowledge must he accepted, but it is not unparliamentary temperately to criticize statements made by a member as being contrary to the facts; but no imput­ ation of intentional falsehood is permissible." And I would suggest to Your Honour that that is exactly the portion of this ruling which applies to this. f-ly friend from LaPoile (S. Neary) was being temperate.

He said quite clearly that in his view, in his be­ lief these documents we.re fake. I may say there are numbers of 1Ec£ ... ...

~~::.:::-c~ 2~, l93l Tape NO. ::59.3 EL - 3 ~,:p_. ~~CJ~::::~T 3 : others of us in the House, Sir, ':/c:o ha~:.-e our o~Nn dc~bts 3.5 to the authenticity of this ~ccu~ent, a so-called bill, for example. But whether we ~ave our doubts or not,we are allowed to express them, in ~y view because, Sir, it is not contrary to the rules. ~e c~j not say that the Minister of Transportation (C.B~et~) .:.:.a.s i:-_tentionally, '.vhat is it no imputation o::: inteEtion2.l £a.ls2hood. Ke jus~ said that in our opinion these ~ r . ..

'1arch 24, 1981 ~a9e ~Jo. 594 DW - l '1R. E. ROBERTS: dccu~ents are not true, thev are fake. And I "'muld sugqest, Sir, that is parliamentary and my friend ouqht to be allowed to ask his question and see i-: •,,·e qet an ans1ver. S0~1E HON. ~·1EMBERS : ~R. ,._,. M}\RSHALL : ~R.· SPEl-.KER (Sim_rns): President of the Council. MR. tv. 1\.f.ARSH.l\.LL: "!:ear, hear! To the coint of order, ~r. Sceaker. ~o the ?Oint of order, the hon. Bv what contortion of logic one can come to the conclusion the hon. ffiernber comes to.

The fact of the matter is as you ao on as he has read:but no im"?utation of intentional :alsehood is ;Jer::'issable .' ~ow, '1r. Sceaker, what possibly could be the imJ?ort oi the •.vords o:: the han. member '"'hen he says that the hen. meTI1ber ?resented docu!71.ents before this House which loJere faked. They •.vere docuiT'en ts, Mr. Speaker, that he presented himself, :cersonally. To say that he oresented fake documents is to sav that he has deceived this House, is to say that he is dishcnest.And, ~r. S?eaker, des?ite the unfortunate observations made bv the han. the me~ber for the Straits of Belle Isle (~r.

Roberts), I ~now that he would not wish to impute this. The word of e.n~· :nember of this hen. House is to be taken, and the dav 1ve cet to the stage where words of the hen.· members of this House a::e not to be taken, 9articularly with resuect to state8ents ~ade before the House sue!'! as the han. member has ~ade ··1ithout contrary proof is a sad day indeed. And ~t is very much contrarv to the rules 8f this House and it is going to leave t~e door open, ~r.

Speaker, to the type of accusation which is gci~g to lead to the ~ rosse~~ind and to the basest ~ind of disorder in this House and, in essence, will result in ~he House not being able to function effectively as a oarliamentarv body as it should. ''i .. ,

~larch 24, 1981 Tape No. 594 DW - 2 ~1R. i'i • · ~'AR-8-P.ALL : It is against, i'!r. St:;Jeaker, I submit on this particular authority that I have auoted and on parlia­ mentary practices,contrary to all rules of order and all rules of ?rivileqes of han. members and of this House itself. MR. E. ROBERTS: A further comment to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Si~~s): A further comment to the point of order, the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle . YR. E. ROBERTS: Your Honour, giv~n the tradition of going back and forth I l'lould like to respond briefly to that.

First of all, I do not need to give the hon. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) any lessons in contorted logic 1 he evidences these daily. But I want to say that I do agree with him on the seriousness of this ~oint because the House would h~come unmanaaeable and thus totally ineffective, ineffectual if we ~.;ere to get to the point where we l'lould not accept each other:s word. Your Honour. ~as ruled that the word 'mislead' is unParliamentary and I understand that to be in the sense of 'inten-tionally misled'. il.nd that is another example of the ?rinciple we are talking about.

V>That we have said here is not that the hon. gentleman misled the House, Sir. 1-Je have not giver.. anvthing as to what he knows or does not know. CV!R. L. THOMS: !'f.R. E. ROBERTS: Even thour,-h he may ha.ve .. l>l/hat we have said is that 1ve think the documents - and I would simply sav t;,m things; first of all, my han. friend has made no attack against the minister and the member for Trinity North district (:'lr. Brett). AN HON. MEMBER: No ? M.'<.. E. ROBERTS : :'-lo!

But I woulc. sa y that I for one would like nothing better than to have the hon. gentleman for Trinity North under oath, under cross-ax~~ ination on these doc~~ents. There are some auestions that should be answered. SO!JI"E HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1 ~ .- •·; ._,1 ''I

"!arch 24, 1981 Tape No. 594 ow - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS: But having said that, Sir, I think that the remarks made by my hon. friend for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) were in order. He has every right to cast doubt on the authen- ticity of documents presented in the House. He is not question­ ing the word or the honour of the member for Trinity North (Mr. Brett) . It may well be - in fact these documents, the one that concerns us was not sent by the minister,it was sent to him. And I will tell you now, in my opinion, it has as much validity as a statement of account, Mr. Speaker, as if I were to sit down today and do one.

And what led us to this is the conclu- sion that $1,800,which is a l~rge amount of money, particularly for an individual to draw a check, the minister drew a check on day one for that amount of money and on day three he did not rememberit.That is what led us to this and that is why the question , Sir, which I suggest is in order. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): One further submission, the hon. Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMF.R: 1i'7ell, Mr. Speaker, I do not know if there is a great deal to be added.

I think the argument so far has, in fact, centred around ?aragraph 322 in Beauchesne and if I could just read the last sentence or so there. it says, 'it is not unparliamentary temperately to criticize statements made bY- a member as being contrary ~o the facts; but no imputation of intentional falsehood is permissable. On rare occasions this may result in the House having to accept two contradictory accounts of the same incident.' The distinction I 'llOuld like to make, Mr. Speaker, is that for hon. members to criticize the documents or the information in 1 ~c~ ~-..~ ''l "I .. , ' l

March 2~, 1981, Tape 595, Page l -- apb ~-1:?~. C.TT-:S::!EE T)'l.ER: tr.e doc~~ents tabled by the ton. gentleman, to say the infornation is inaccurate,is not a proper addition arithmetically, is not written up in a proper or a logical manner, is not authentic, is not any number of things, comes wi~hin the purview of a strong di=ference of opinion with respect to alleged facts, and that is obviously permissible. But I would suggest, )1r.

Speaker, that the word 1 fake 1 itself, and this is a question of what a dictionary says as well as what our common understanding of what the word is - I do not know what a dictionary says; I presume it would be quite close to ";hat our common understanding of the word 'fake' is­ and when we say that somebody has faked something, then - SOME HON. M&~BERS: C.lR. OT'T'ENHEHlER: that a document is faked . SOC.!E HON. MEMBERS: AN EiON. MEMBER: )1R. OTTENHE IMER: SO!"'~ HON. MEMBERS : MR. OTTENHEHlER: He did not say that. - or that - okay- No. A fake document . Okay, a fake document. That is right. A fake document.

Now, saying that a document is faked, or a faked document is a fairl y - but, anyway, a document is faked. To fake means to deceive or to attempt to deceive. And I am sure if Your Honour looks in a dictionary, whatever the definition is, it wil l be something very close to deceive or to attempt to deceive. So it is this connotation of 'fake' ,;hic h I think is at the heart of the matter, not that hon. members disagree totally with the documents or their accuracy, whether it is - AN HDN a ~1E.MBER: C.L.'<.. S?EAKER (Simms ) : 1 t ~ (Inaudible) . Order, please! .., •, .. , .. ,

March 24, 1981, Tape 595, Page 2 -- apb MR. OTTENHEI!-i..ER: - mathematical or anything else, but the conception of a document being faked because 'fake' means, or it must mean, 'to deceive or attempt to deceive', and it is the connotation of deception - what one cannot say directly cannot be implied as well - so it is the connotation of deception, Mr. Speaker, implied in the word 'fake'. MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): Well, I thank bon. members for their submissions to the point of order.

It is a rather important point of order and in view of the fact there is no urgency now to proceed with the question, I think what I would like to do is reserve on it and to do a little more research. Perhaps there are some precedents that maybe I should be aware of. I will give a ruling tomorrow, prior to the Question Period. The time for Oral Questions, therefore, has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act,I wish to table a report on the guaranteed loan paid since the sitting of the House last. MR. SPEAKER: for which ·notice has been given. MR. NEARY: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Answers to questions A point of order, Mr. A point of order. The Mr. Speaker, we have been putting questions on the Order Paper now since the House opened and so far I do not have any answers to my written questions. Could I ask the Premier to find out 1ES5 .. , ''1 •. , .. , .. ,

March 24, l98l, Tape 595, Page ·3 -- aph MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: true answers. MR. NEARY: get answers to questions? MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): from the ministers - We do not have any - when we are going to Order, please: I have heard enough. I have ruled on that point of order a multitude of times and the ruling is the same now - MR. NEARY: (inaudible) . MR. SPEAKER: You are going to We have many precedents. The ruling is the same now, it is not a point of order. )ffi. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL : Since this is a day for points of order, I rise on another point or order. From time to time the hon. gentleman has gotten up and asked a question along the lines of this one. Answers to questions for which notice has been given has been announced. I suggest to Your Honour that the mode and operation of this Assembly is in accordance with the rule of Beauchesne and British Parliamentary practice, and not in accordance with the rules of one 'Mr. Neary'- or the han. the member for LaPoile(Mr: Neary). SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: !>'I..R. SPEAKER: Oh, oh: Mr. Speaker - To the point of order.

The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: - if I may reply to that, I would simply say the hon. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) has once again failed to marshall either his 12ss •.. ''I ''I .. , .,

March 24, 1981, Tape 595, Page 4 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Sir. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER ( S i.rnms ) : the point of order - MR. STIRLING: There is no point of order. MR. SPEAKER: facts or his argument, How childish can you get? Well, with respect to What is to (inaudible) . Let me think just for a moment. First of all, the Chair cannot anticipate what a member is going to say when he rises on a point of order and,therefore, the Chair is obligated to hear the point of order. However, when the Chair hears enough of a point of order that is repeatedly made, then he will intervene and call a member to order.

PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: the Opposition has a petition? MR. STIRLING: Speaker. The hon. the Leader of I have a petition, Mr. I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the people of Gambo South: "We the undersigned residents of Gambo South are presently unable to understand why it is that persons wishing to build a house are not allowed to do so in this area. At this moment there are eight residents who have purchased land. They have·spent money excavating and preparing in other ways to build. One person has a home partially built. All have been stopped from further building.

This is as a result of orders from the town council. The reason given by council is that there is no water and sewer facilities in the area. Does this not indicate that the fault does not lie with 1 E S 7 "I ''I

Narch 24,1981 Tape No. 596 AH-1 MR. STIRLING: the persons wishing to build but with the town council and/or the government. It does not seem reasonable that progress must stop and that a native Newfoundlander cannot build a home in his own area just because those in authority have fallen behind in their job. We therefore suggest that someone in authority please use this authority to straighten out this mess and allow us to go ahead and make a home for ourselves as Newfoundlanders have been doing for several hundred years!' Now, Mr.

Speaker, one of the co~~i~~ents made by the PC government under its former Premier was to the people of Garnbo in writing that they would finish the water and sewer services. I ask the Premier of the present administration, a member of that Cabinet,aministerof Municipal Affairs,I believe,at the time that the Premier made the commitment, whether or not he would continue with that commitment?

But last year funds were cut of in the middle of the water and sewer project, right in the middle of the project and the present government led by the present Premier has not lived up to the commitment of the former Premier, The reason that these people find themselves in this situation, Mr. Speaker, is that they really have no control over this situation .

It .was an ongoing,phased-in 'series of installations but for some reason, for-some unknown reason in the middle of their commitments last year this government just cancelled the water and sewer commitments, cancelled the requests for water and ·sewer services.And at this point the council has requested a meeting with the Pra~ier and the Premier has refused to meet with them. So that is why that they have taken up a petition to try to get the attention of this House focused on the fact that these people 1E8: .. , '1

=·~a::-ch 24,1981 Tape ~~o. 596 AH-2 :-!!L STIRLI~G: had a written corr~itment from the ?remier. :Tow, :'!r. Speaker, I support this and I as~ ~tat these pe~itions be placed on the t3ble of the Souse and referred to the department to I<Jhich it relates. :-m. SPE;>.3:ZR (Si=s l : The hon. m~~ber for Terra Nova. :-!R.LUS~I: Mr. Speaker, I 1vould like to su~port that position so ably presented by the hon. the ~eader of ~he Opposition and relating , of course, to the riqhts and privileqes of people from my home town. 1·1J:·.

Speaker, this is a very serious problem and certainly i~ goes against the gover~~ent's own acknowledged goal and priorities , Ylr. Speaker .- in terms of developing rural )ie•tTfoundland and the maintenance and continuance o~ the culture of rural Newfoundland,when we prevent people of building in the areas, in their horne town in •.-1hich they want to build. ::-Jow, 1-lr. Speaker, granted that this is a municipality,but I personally run into the kinds of problems in unincorporated areas of this Province. Mr. Speaker ,the situation is in my own district.

In several comHlunities regulations like this have stopped t~e :urther growth and development of these communities. I can n~~e Cannings Cove, Bloomfield, Musgravetown where people,unless they build on a piece of land that can be gi•:en to them by their parents, when it comes to moving into another area;an extension of the cornmunity,they cannot do it. The reasons given , of course, is that this is promoting or encouraging ribbon development and in the event that they are going to put water and sewer ~~ere it ~s ~n'-~ to be to costly to the government. Well, !·!r.

Speaker,it is that kind of regulation that stopped the ~r~wth and ex~ansion of rural ~ewfoundland. As I said before, .. ''I

)1arcb 24,1981 Tape No . 596 AP.-3 ~ .LUS!:i: in my own district there are several cc~~unities that I ca~ name ~~at bui~ding is not peroit:ted there any more . And, :•tr. Speaker, I think it is a terrible regulation, it is an insidious regulation and one that is preventing the ?eople of Newfoundland from building their homes in the community in whic~ they grew up and where they want to live . Mr.

Speaker , it is a serious matter and I am not sure that the governm ent is aware of the seriousness of this kind of a problem as articulated by the Leader of the Opposition and as e.xpressed in this petition by the people of Gambo South , a concern, ~lr .

Speaker, that has certainly been on th e t::i:1ds or •.till be on the minds of a lot of people in rural ~ewfou~dl~~d. ~~c I \-'Ould certainly urge the Premier, and certainly ~~e ~linister of ~1u nici pal Affairs (l'lrs Newhook), to look into ~~ese ~inds of regulations that are af:ecting the people o: this Province and certainly preventing the.~ ~Yom building up in the places of rural Newfoundland where they want to live . Because they \•ant to be a ;;>art of rural Ne•.tfoundland, because they want to be a part of the culture, 1 ; 0 ~ .. ':l •.

~larch 24, 1981 Tape No. 597 NM - 1 H .. '<.. LUSH: because they want to live in those rural areas and enjoy the kind of life that only rural Newfoundland can give them. Mr. Speaker, it is this kind of regulation that is preventing this kind of thing from happening, preventing the development and growth of ~·<e,'ifoundland and certainly should be looked into immediately. And whatever the rules and regulations are they should be immediately rescinded. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~R. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please!

Before I recognize another hon. mernber ,I may be a little bit too late,but hon. members would want to join me in welcoming to the galleries,if some of them are still there, a delegation from the .~~illingate­ New World Island Development Association, led by its President, Mr. Albert Canning. SOME !-!ON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: petition? Strait of Belle Isle. :01R. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! Is there a further The hen. member for the Mr. Speaker, I have a petition which I take great pride in presenting.

It is a petition signed by _1,971 of my constituents and these are men and women who live in the communities from Cook's Harbour around to Goose Cove -or I should sav ~recisely from Wild Bight and Boat Harbour,which are next cheek by jowls to Cock's Harbour, right around to the community of Goose Cove, excepting the co~~unity of St. Anthony. And I would say the fact that ~here are only two signatures on this from St. Anthony means nothing more or less than that the people who have taken up this petition have not sought support in St.

Anthony because they would have had the unanimous support of the people of 3t. ~nthony 1 but they have taken it to the communities 1 ~ L. •

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 597 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: directly involved. The prayer of the petition, Sir, is succinctly stated. Let me add, there are letters of support ~ere from the Tow~ Council of St. Anthony and from the St. Anthony Chamber of Commerce. But the prayer of the petition is succinctly stated. It refers to the gravel roads in the area between Cook's Harbour and Goose Cove, and it says, "Whereas gravel roads in the area are not up to a standard acceptable to the residents of communities within the boundaries served by the White Bay North Development Associatioti'-who sponsored this . petition-"and

whereas these roads have not been properly maintained and upgraded; and

whereas upgrading and paving of these roads is necessary to enable residents of the area served to gain proper access to schools, medical facilities and places of employment; the following people support the White Bay North Development Association in its efforts to have the roads upgraded and paved and call upon the necessary departments of government to give a commitment that this matter will receive priority during 1981." As I say, Sir, it is signed by a little under 2,000 men and women and that is close enough, Sir, to every adult, every elector in the communities, the two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen communities in tha~ area.

The petition, Sir, is accompanied by a brief prepared by the White Bay North Development Association and the brief is a study of gravel roads in the area, the area from which this petition comes, A,ld I would commend it, I am sorry the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) has left the House, I am sure only ta~porarily, and I regret as well the Premier has left the House, So there is nobody of any substance left to speak on the other side. And I regret that becaus'e this is a matter on which we do seek some comment and hopefully some commitment. 1 "7 r. :; I U • ''I

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 597 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: The brief I would commend, Sir, because it outlines in graphic detail MR. DOYLE: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: If my friend from Harbour Main- Bell Island (Mr. Doyle) would keep it down to a dult roar: I can yell at least as loudly as he can, Sir, but I have no desire to. As I was saying, this brief outlines both graphically and in detail the reasons why these people believe their roads should be upgraded and should be paved and I say without any hesitation, and quite succinctly, that I support them categorically, completely and without any reservation. Last year, Mr.

Speaker, according to the Public Accounts, the government spent on improvement and reconstruction and on new construction a little over $26 million in this Province. And that does not count DREE, that does not count any money spent on DREE. I will wager, Sir, that not $50,000 of that money was spent on the 100 miles of road involved, and that fact, which is a fact, Sir, and is unchallenged and unchallengable, is the most telling evidence of the merit of this petition. There are 100 miles of road, Sir, and there 17G2 ..

.. , March 24 ' 1981 Tar:e No. 598 SD- 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: has been insufficient maintenance done on it, to put it mildly. The men and machines in the area do what can be done but the minister has not made available the money. The national park is served by these roads at L'Anse-au-Meadow, the national historic site, the government paid no heed to that at all apparently. Hundreds of men and women go back and forth each day over these roads to - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR.

ROBERTS: - as I was saying before I was interrupted, hundreds of people go back and forth each day over these roads, back and forth to work. Men, women and ''I children go back and forth to hospital, children go back and forth to school, so these roads are part of the fabric, the very fabric of life in these communities.

Now we hear a great deal from the Premier about equitable treatment, and I say now quite simply to the Premier and his colleagues, if there is any equity in them, if there is any equity at all in the government of this Province, if there is any desire to try to do what is right - I know their means are limited - but if there is any desire at all we will see it reflected in work being done on these roads this year. They are the worse gravel roads in the Province, barring none, and that includes even the roads in St. Mary's-The Capes and the roads in Labrador South. ~hey are no worse than that MR. HANCOCK: No, no!

PREMIER PECKFORD: I disagree with that, Mr. Speaker . MR. ROBERTS: - but they are just as bad, Sir. And I would say to my friend from St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr. Hancock) I have been over the roads in his district many times since he has been last over the roads in mine, and I know whereof I speak. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: And I would say, Mr. Speaker, if there is any equity at all in this group of men and women who .. ..,·-/ i...

:: =. rc~ ~ . .:. -:, 198 1 Tape No. 598 SD - 2 :-1?.. ROBERTS: are presently the government of tie ?rcvince, they will make available this year the funds '!:hat are needed. I do not want to hear them say it is federal; these are not federal roads, they are not a federal responsibility, ~hese are entirely a provincial responsibility. And I would si~pl~ say, Sir, that these people in this part of this district deserve better than they have got from this government.

And we will see the roads that are being paved elsewhere in this Province, we '"ill see whether justice and equity are principles to which the hon. the Premier and his colleagues subscribe in fact or simply in words. T~is will tell, Sir. I support this petition and do so wholeheartedly. SQ)<t~ HON. ~·lE21BERS: Hear, hear. .!!R. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support that pe~ition not only because of the validity of that ?etition itself and the 1,900 names but because, Mr. Speaker, '.vhat we are now seeing is that the moment of truth is arriving.

And that i:" •.ve .;ave heard all the rhetoric, we have heard ~inister after minister tell the federal government to get out of their area of jurisdiction under the Constitution. ~·:ell, c-lr. Speaker, this is clearly in the jurisdiction of the pro7incial government, there are no excuses that can be ~ade. The government has gotten it full measure under eq:ualization grants, it has the same budget that any other province had based on its own resources. There is no excuse, ~!r. Speaker. This is not part of the Trans-Canada Highway. ~nd it is crying out all over this Province, Mr.

S~eaker, that people demand at least basic,decent facilities. And, Mr. Speaker, the time has come for the people on the other side to start getting interested and involved in what is really happening in this Province and jet off the constitutional foolishness and the anti-Ottawa focl~shness and to get onto doing something definite and 1 .., ~ r· I L,; ;; ·~~ 'I . ''I 'I

)larch 2-f, 1981 Ta~e )lo. 598 SD - 3 )!R. S':!:'I::<LI'::-lG: make some cor:tmitments to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. And this is very important and this is the kind of petition that this government is ~0ing to receive from all over the Province. Their patience .. s.s \vorn out; they have listened to all the rhetoric and all the promises and all the inconsistancies,and now they ~ould like to see some action, ~r. Speaker. SGr.lE HON. 3lE"'!BERS : Hear, hear. MR. ROBERTS: Not a IVOrd from anybody on the r:-':r .. rernPent side, let it b~ r~r;8rdec1. HR.

SPEAKER: ''"-'" u • F!ODDER: The hen. member for Port au Port . Mr. 3peaker, I ~ag leave ~o present a petition on behalf of 275 residents of the co~~unities of Mainland and Three Rock Cove. The petition reads: "We, ~he residents of i'-Iainland a:::.d Three Rock Cove, request that our roa.d be upgraded this coming season and we would ask the government to carefully consider our brief". Nmv, c•lr. Speaker I the brief whic:'1 is referred to in the petition is one which I passed around earlier today to all the Cabinet and also gave copies to the press.

This brief was compiled and '"ritten on behalf of the Three Rock Cove - ~ainland Co~'llittee ,and they are !:"lot a •,,;ealthy committe by any stretch of the imagir.ation but they are a very hard •.vorking one_ They have asked me as their representative to make sure that this brief carne to the attention of all ministers. )low I note, Mr.

S;?eaker, •vi tl1 so:.te chag:::in that there are about six rniniste:::s nov; and ! wonder, ~r- Speaker, why it is that ministers cannot stay in their seats long enough,because these peti~ions come fro~ the people and this petition that I am presenting today comes from the people of Three Rock Cove and ~ainland to the ~1inister of Transportation and Comrnunica tions ::-:r. arett 1 to the ?reBier and to the Cabinet. ~To;v t.hey a::-e aski:1g for consideration a~d ! ~o ~ ld say this, .. ,. ''I

March 24, 1981 Tape 599 PK - 1 I·iR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, that this particular brief,there was an awful lot of effort, work, time and money went into the preparation of this brief. But yet for some reason or other,rninisters cannot stay in the House of Assembly because these petitions go to ministers from people in this Province who have legitimate desires and legitimate concerns, and this is one particular petition, Mr.

Speaker, and brief which I personally commend the people and the co~mittee of the area because they have been working in the most positive way possible during the past year to try and get decent roads. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would just like to talk about the brief for a few minutes. The brief tells a little about the history of both communities, but it shows that these particular communities are trying to help themselves. They are trying to help their children, they are trying to help themselves from the depressed economic state in which they find themselves. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the communities of Mainland and Three Rock Cove are productive fishing areas, as the brief explains. They have a labour force which are either in the fishery or work outside of their community. All of their children are bused over the road. The people have time and time again - I suppose, Mr. Speaker, t.hi -s must have been about the tenth petition I have presented in four years to this bon. House on behalf of the people of this area. MR. NEARY: It is just as well to leave them horne. ro1R. HODDER: They had at one point, Mr.

Speaker, they had a peaceful demonstration in the area which made the Nationa ~ News. Last year out of pure frustration the y 1 ;r-: t ..; I . 'I

March 24, 1981 Tape 599 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: blocked the road. But what happened, Mr. Speaker? The police marched on them. But yet in this area,with the same type of concern when the students in St. John's on the Prince Philip Parkway,and in Corner Brook when out ,the police protected them. They also asked that question in their brief, Mr. Speaker. They realized that the students had a legitimate concern 7 and they have a legitimate concern too, one that nobody sees, that nobody from this government ever gets out to look at, that I doubt, Mr. Speaker, anybody in this government cares much about. But, Mr.

Speaker, I think it is a well put together brief. I would commend ministers on the other side - I am sorry the Premier is not here that he had to rush off, I am sorry the Minister of Transportation (Nr. Brett) could not stay here. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HODDER: AN HON . MEMBER: He is one minister - They are at a meeting. There is one minister - It is a wrap up of their meeting. MR. HODDER: Oh1 I see, Mr. Speaker, they are meeting. Yes,they probably are. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. HODDER: But there is one minister, Mr.

Speaker, who should never leave his chair because there are a number of petitions, ~here are two petition& today that were presented in this hon. House on behalf of roads in this Province, and the minister cannot find the time to sit there, nor can other ministers who might be receiving briefs. But, Mr. Speaker, I would ask that this petition be tabled, that the government take it and read it, that they answer this brief. And I would ask, 1 ~ ;- :, ' ... - .. , .. , .. ,

March 24, 1981 Tape 599 PK - 3 MR. HODDER: Mr .. Speaker, on behalf of the residents of these two corrmunities when the budget comes down - they are not asking for paving, Mr. Speaker, they are asking for money to upgrade their road to paving standards - I would ask when the budget comes down on their behalf that their road be included for upgrading and maintenance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): and Manpower. Hear, hear! The han. Minister for Labour MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, I was here reading the petition from the people from Three Rock Cove and the other couple of petitions that were presented here today. And I find it rather ironic that three members on the Opposition side got up and criticized the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) for not being in his seat when he is inside meeting with a delegation from Morton's Harbour from the hon. member for Twillingate's (Mr. Stirling) district and with the member present. MR. WINDSOR: MR. DINN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DINN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DINN: Disgraceful! MR. STIRLING: • MR. SPEAKER: MR.

STIRLING: At the member's request. At the member's request. Hear, hear! So I do not know you can criticize him. Hear, hear! That is disgraceful! Mr. Speaker. To the petition? The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I cannot say I am pleased to rise to support that petition because there should not be any need for anyone to rise in this House to support that petition because it has been presented so many times before. 1 7 G 2 .. ,

March 24, 1981 Tape 599 PK - 4 MR. STIRLING: ~ow, Mr. 'Speaker, I visited the people in that area. I sat down and talked to the women whose children 1..:ere involved in that protest, 1 7 0 I .,.. ·-- .. ,

Harch 24, 1981 Tape No. 600 EL - 1 ~!R. STIRLIC'<G: women with tears in their eyes ''I because they now have a criminal record. They were picked up by the police and taken to jail, an experience that was a horrible experience for ,them. Well, c-lr. Speaker, it was done out of desperation because of a gover~~ent that just does not care, a government that essentially represents urban Newfound- land and sits in its smugness and attacks Ottawa, does not try to get something for the 2eople who really deserve it - ; lR . 1·1ArtS HALL : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR.

SPEA..'<ER (Simms) A point of order, the han. the President of the Council. :-IR • ~.ARS HALL : Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition is engaging in debate on the petition, quite obviously engaging in the debate. He should confine himself to the remarks of the petition. Y!R. HODDER: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER : To the point of order, the hon. member for Port au Port. NR. HODDER: I suppose, ~.r. Speaker, to detell11i..ne whether the Leader of the Opposition was getting into debate would be to know the facts of the situation.

And what the Leader of the Opposition \vas saying, Mr. Speaker, was indeed the facts of the situation which are referred to in the brief which was mentioned as well in the petition. The brief wa~ mentioned in the petition,and the brief itself mentions this particular instance on which the hon. the Leader of the Oppos- ition was given straight facts MR. HANCOCK: They do not care what goes on . c-1:;(. SPEA:t<ER: The rules are quite clear, I think, for all hon. members with respect to the debate and discussion on petitions.

Standing orders 90 to 97 clearly outline,in part at least,that a member speaking to a petition must speak .. ,

March 25, 1981 Tape NO 600 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): in support of a petition,con- tain his comments to the statement of the·parties from whom it comes, the petition, and the number of signatures att­ ached to it and the material allegations it contains but there shall be no debate on a petition. And at the point when the hon. the President of the Council (W. Marshall) was ris- ing on a point of order, the Chair was about to rise himself and ask the hon. leader to contain his remarks to the state- ments in the petition and the number of signatures attached. MR. STIRLING: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I would expect we are going to have many more points of order, Mr. Speaker, because I am sick and tired of the kind of arr- ogance on that side of the House. MR. SPEAKER:. Order, please! That his nothing to do with the petition either. The hon. the Leader of the Opp- osition, please,to the petition before the House. MR. STIRLING: I am referring to the petition, Mr. Speaker. The same kinds of relevancy I am using as was used by the Minister of Labour (J. Dinn) a minute ago when he got up and explained the absence of the Minister of Trans­ portation (C. Brett). Well, Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's East(W.

Marshall) cannot change the facts-of the pet- ition. Now what are the facts, Mr. Speaker? What are the facts? The facts are that these people want the road changed into a road from various craters that are there now that they have to get over. There is nothing to grade, so,Mr. Speaker, I am talking about the facts as they point out. The facts of the matter is that these people did get to such a point that they 1 -; , ., I 1'

March 24, 1981 Tape NO. 600 EL - 3 HR. STIRLING: did protest, they did get arrested. Children were taken by the RCMP, that is a fact, 2•lr. S'?eaker. I am dealing with the facts of the petition, not entering into the debate, because, il.lr. Speaker, we cannot at this particular time get them to debate the situation as it applie3 so we can only deal with the facts. Well, lolr. Speaker, I can tell you that the member for St. John's East (lv.

Marshall) would have many occasions to be on his feet because we are not going to allow the government to get away with this kind of arrogance and the kind of use of the rules of the House so that they will not allow us to deal with the issues cecause they will not bring them before this House. )'Jell, 'tle 1vill do it, Mr. Speaker. We will do it in petitions, Ne Hill do it in questions, and we will do it in every other way. And, Mr. Speeker, we make no apologies for it. It is time that this govern- ment did something about these petitions. ORDERS OF THE DAY I1R. SPEAKER (Simms): Order one, Address in ~e?ly.

Yesterday debate on the amendment was adjourned by the hon. the member for St. Barbe (T.3en~ett). The hon. the member for St. Barbe. SOME HON. MEr-lEERS: Hear, hear! r1R. BENNETT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I hope -"·e all have a copy so that we can refer to page one, and the very first line after His Ho~our - he says 'over the last year and a half my government embarked' and then we go way down to the five lines up from that, which says 'my government has addressed each of these over the past two years'. Now, I am wondering who is getting their signals mixed, lvhich is right?

Now, that is number one on that page. We go down the line - we go dowr. 1:he pa·~ es there are five lines and we see ' managing all our resources'. 1 . ' ' .. , ..

March 24, 1981, Tape 601, Page 1 -- apb MR. BENNETT: ~nd this is what has been put before the House of Assembly, 'Managing all our Resources'. All our resources: That is a story in itself. This may suggest that this government is managing all our resources, but I think, Mr. Speaker, many of our people, our young people especially who are unemployed and the main resource of the Province,~E not being managed very, very well at all. We go further down the line to 'Four components emerge, therefore, as the basis on which government policy must be pursued in order to achieve such a society and they are' ,Mr.

Speaker, number one, 'An honest and efficient political system'. Mr. Speaker, is the government of the day finally admitting that in the past they have been totally dishonest? Are they finally suggesting that from here on they are going to be honest? If we look on page 29 of the Auditor General's Report, Tourism, Recreation and Culture, and if we read the issue there, which goes something like this, Mr. Speaker: Commenting in his 1974 and 1975 report to the House of Assembly,the Auditor General reported upon a number of weaknesses in the system of internal control for the issuing of licences.

In these reports he exp~essed a concern that certain reconcilliations were not prepared. And as we ~o down a little further: 'The audit for the year ended March 31, 1980, disclosed that the department did reconcile some of its accounts. Of the total revenue $812,360,00, procee& of $522,271.00, realized from the sale of big game licences were not reconciled'. They were not reconciled. Now to me, Mr. Speaker, that does not indicate honesty in the first instance.

Five years to reconcile more than a half million dollars of the taxpayers' money into this House of Assembly, into the Treasury of this government; A "7 A I I ... l ... ' 'I

March 24, 1981, Tape 601, Page 2.-- apb MR. BENNETT: Number two: 'A stimulating and enlightened cultural policy'. Mr. Speaker, I am wondering if this indeed means that outsiders are not allowed to come inside this Province? , To me it is exactly what it is suggesting. Number three: 'A progressive and compassionate social policy within a healthy and safe environment'. A progressive and compassionate social policy within a healthy and safe environment. The healthy part; I am wondering if that is why we are using matacil,within a healthy and safe environment? A compassionate social policy, Mr.

Speaker: Anytime and every time that any funding comes down from Ottawa to assist people on assistance that this government is responsible to and for- anytime this government is responsible to welfare recipients or other people who depend on this government's assistance, any­ time that any assistance comes down from Ottawa to help these people, they automatically get deductions from their chequs in lieu of federal help. Number four: 'A resource development policy that involves wise management of our renewable and non-renewable resource'. Again, Mr.

Speaker, I must suggest renewable and non~renewable resources, yes, but I think the greatest resource is our people and they have to ship out. The greatest resource of this Province, Mr. Speaker, is the people of the Province and if they want to get employment they have to ship out~ It was only this morning that I checked for a constituent of mine who was in here looking for employment to see what opportunity or what possible chance a constituent of mine would have in getting a job offshore.

And I was told there are 8,000 applicants at this time with the Department of Labour and Manpower, 8,000. ~ ' ' .., .. , .. ,

March 24, 1981, Tape 601, Page 3 -- apb MR. BENNETT: Now, Mr. Speaker, .. , that is an incredible number of people unemployed and I would suggest that most of them are from this general area, because people up in the Northern part of the Province, and on the West coast too, I .. , 1 -; ~ -.

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 602 NM - 1 MR. BENNETT : suspect, are reluctant to even be bothered registering with the Manpower Labour for employment because they know their chances are practically nil. If they could come up and rap on the door every other day at the Department of Manpower and Labour they might stand a chance of getting a job. But they have to register here in order to qualify. They cannot go through any other channel other than this government's Manpower and Labour. We can find an awful lot of discrepancies in the Speec~ from the Throne, Mr. Speaker, and as we go along- paragraph 5,

section (d), the Workers' Compensation of fishermen;that was introduced, Mr. Speaker, if I remember correctly, eight years ago and ithas just come into being now apparently. It is a long time to have a bill passed in this House of Assembly, eight years. "It was for this reason that my government has steadfastly held that our fishery, our hydro power, and our offshore resources be developed in line with provincial priorities." In my opinion, Mr.

Speaker, provincial prioritiesare to make sure that our people leave the Province, send them out to Ottawa, send them out to Alberta, send them out to British Columbia, send them - just send them any place to look for employment and create very little in the P rov .ince to a-ttract them.

If on page 3 we go down several paces we come to the word "boast", and it is being used in this context; 'This assertion becomes most meaningful when one considers that this Province boasts of the highest taxes, the highest unemployment rate, the lowest standard of living in Canada, and this after more than thirty years in Confederation.' Now in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, that is not very much to boast about. 1 ..., ~ - I 1 ''I

March 24, 1981 Tape No . 602 NM - 2 MR. BENNETT: I think we should change that wording most certainly. 'My government is deeply concerned for existing tax revenues. We are the highest taxed Province. We have quadrupled our Provincial debt and it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that the taxes we are collecting from our people are barely able to keep pace with the interest on the money that this government has borrowed in its ten years in office. Mr.

Speaker, we can look back over the years and start at 1950. 1949-50 we came into Confederation and for the twenty years after that there was indeed a great deal of progress made. If we look at the years from 1970 to 1981, the present day, I wonder myself, and I am sure the rest of the people in this Province must wonder, this was displayed yesterday by a colleague of mine in the House of Assembly - •·:1 AN HON. MEMBER: The Liberal Bible. MR. MARSHALL: The Liberal Bible. MR. NEARY: And we are proud of it. MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, I challenge this government to put out a brochure of this - MR.

BARRY: You are expecting to get three seats in the next election: MR. BENNETT: I expect to get enough to form a government. If your government would put out a similar brochure and display what you have accomplished for this Province - MR. BARRY: They will have three. MR. BENNETT: - then I doubt very much if you would get three. Because it looks to me, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: Offshore, codfish and constitution. 1 , 1 ;: 1 I

~!arch 24, 19!31 Tape No . 602 NM - 3 ~1R . BE)fN:C:TT: - like all you have accomplished since you have been government of this Province ,is a fantastic .. , ?rovincial debt that you cannot bear up under and we are going to have to have a change of government, a change of administration o r you are going to have to change your policy of operating, of running ~he country, or this Province is going to go deeper and deeper and de€per into debt. ,., .. , 1 ? ..• ' I-

:·!arch 24, 1981 Taoe No. 603 DW - 1 'I '1R. T. EE:-JNETT: You do not have to turn many of these !)ages before you can come U? with an awful lot of the accomplishments for the oeriod, the twenty year period. ))OI ·l mind you, this government of today has been in power for ten years,and that is half of the period of time that these accom~lishments, the 6,000 miles of highways - SOME EON. i'-!E:V1BERS: Nine years. :1R. S. NEARY : Going on ten, You are going into your tenth year. MR. T. BENNETT: You are in your tenth year and you had, ;·.fr. Speaker, this government had a foundation from which to start.

This government had a foundation from which to start. This government had a good foundation from which to start. They had a network of high roads, they had the university, they hao the - "'1R. S. NEARY: College of Fisheries. 'IAR. T. BENNETT: - College of Fisheries, they had high schools, they had trades schools. They had so many things, ~~- Speaker, and it is displayed in this brochure. SOME HON. ME~'lBERS: Oh, oh! ~1R. SPEAKER (Butt) Order, please! MR. T. BENNETT: If I could have the tolerance of the House, Mr. Speaker, I would - SOM£ HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ''I C'-1R.

T • BE:'-JNETT: Number six on this 333 if you would li~P to hear some of these accomplishments,number six is the increase of ern?loyment in fish olants from 1,500 to 10,000 persons. You can open this to any place and put this government, the existing government,you can put it to shame with one little brochure put out describing the accomplishments of a qovernment that ruled this Province from 1950 to 1970. S011E HO N . :·1E~1BERS: Oh, oh! .... -

~arch 24, 1981 Tape No. 603 DW - 2 M...~. T . BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, number forty on page four if you would like to have copies of this I can get them for you - but, '~r. Speaker, number forty says the government financed the establishment and/or the enlargement and/or improvement of sixty-three fish processing plants in fifty-eight settlements in that short period of time. How many fish plants has this government established or seen established in the Province?

As we go along, seventy-nine-you just pick them at rando~- number seventy-nine, 'Recovered to the Crown 650 square miles of timberland in Newfoundland, and 4,100 square miles in Labrador', that is number seventy- nine. Number 169 of the 333 accomplishments 'Created a system of foster homes'- now listen to this one, Mr. Speaker 'created a system of foster homes for neglected and other children whose parents were unable to look after them properly.' SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please: MR. T. BENNETT: Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. gentlemen ;vould like to listen to what I have to say, I "TOuld be glad to have their tolerance. ~R. SPEAKER: Order, please: ~R . T. BENNETT: And if they would not like to hear what I have to say,perhaps they would like to go· outside for the benefit of those who would like to hear what I have to say. So I repeat, number 169 of the 333 acco~plishments of the Liberal Government, 'Created a system of foster homes for neglected and other children whose parents 1vere unable to look after them properly' . Now a few days ago I asked the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey) if he is, indeed, going to let a home in Corner Brook close, an Inter-Faith home in Corner Brook close 1 ., 'l 1 I '- . ..,

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 603 DW - 3 MR. T. BENNETT: that is taking care of four such children who cannot be cared for in their own homes, and that is the only one we have on the West Coast. It seems to me that the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) is going to let that house close. Number 170, 'Substituted cash pay- ments for relief orders for public welfare' instead of sending them down to a retail store. Now this one here, Mr. Speaker, under 'Argiculture', number 137, 'Established community pastures of 15,000 acres'. Now how many acres has this govern- ment established?

I know that they have closed up a few pastures that were created by this original government, this Liberal Government, because there is one 1-rhich is just as well for it to be closed in my district and there is no way that we can get money out of this gover~~ent to support it. M~. Speaker, number 148 - now the hon. gentlemen are laughing but I susoect they are not very anxious to hear the facts,and these are facts -number 148, Mr.

Speaker, the Liberal Government 'Established Canada's greatest system of Provincial public parks and camp sites; opened forty-five new parks, 2,155 camp sites, 1,511 picnic sites which 30,000 persons had visited up to 1979. And before this there •,.;;as no such thina in this Province as camp sites and public picnic sites! Now this government is trying to unload all these picnic sites and provincial parks. They are trying to dump them back on privat~ enter- prise because they do not have the wherewithal or the interest 1 7..., ., . " .;. .. , ' 'I

''I :-larch 24, 198 1 Tape No. 604 SD - l :-1R. T. BEN)IETT : to establish a tourist business that needs this type of thing in the Province. ~lr. Speaker, number 150, the Liberal government of that day financed senior citizens residential institutions in St. John's, Grand Falls, Gander, Corner Brook, .. , Brookfield, Clarke's Beach et cetera and financed dozens and dozens of privately owned and privately operated homes. Mr.

Speaker, 151, Liberal government instituted a system of financing to the owners of private homes ,especially in outports-which this government seems to ha ve no time for, outport ljfP. • in which elderly citizens could be accommodated. This was instituted rather than adding to the number and size of the larger institutions. Such private homeshasnmv over 4,000 citizens in them. Now, Hr. Speaker, it is no wonder this government continually flogs and hates Joey Small\vood and the old Liberal government as much as they do.

It is no \.;onder ,tvhen the accomplishments ,that they are not willing to recognize 1 because if only the people in this Province realized, read this and compared it with the accomplish.1nents of this government they would demand an election. And I ''I doubt very much, Mr. Speaker, if indeed they would get three seats in the House of Assembly. Nmv that is only a very small portion of what this could reveal,and I hope other hon. gentlemen from both sides of this House will have the courage to display to the House of Assembly, Mr.

Speaker, some more of the accomplishments of the Liberal government when it was .. , in ?Ower. I will set this one aside for a little •,;hile, Mr. Speaker, and make a few comments on a fe •l'l ot her things that could relate or are relevant to the Thorne Speech. I do not see very much in there that is going to taf::e care of the needy of the Province, ~1r. Speaker. I am very a::.xious, I am most anxious to hear the Budget 1vhen it is 1 ; ~ - -.

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 604 SD - 2 ~1R. BENNETT : brought do'wn in a few days time. Now we can bring in a Budget to the House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, but without reaching out to that Treasury up above , our budget in Newfoundland will have very little significance and very little impact on the economy of this Province and on the welfare . of the people in this Province. Mr. Speaker, I represent a district that is painfully unemployed. I would say at this time, Mr. Speaker, that there is 60 per cent unemployed people in my district, 60 per cent easy. A...lll HON. MEMBER: I have 85 per cent in mine. MR.

BENNETT: Well 1 I am suggesting 60 and I might very well have 85 per cent in my district. But for the Canada Works programmes, Mr. Speaker, and a few federal programmes that come into this Province during the Winter, this would be a very dark day in outport Newfoundland, a very dark day indeed.

I would like to read an excerpt from this paragraph: "Action", now this is going to set some people thinking, "Action by John Crosbie, as the Minister of Finance, Sinclair Stevens,then the Treasury Board President that brought projects to a halt in Newfoundland and Labrador and the distinction must be made that it was not review or delay but a complete_freeze,which meant that if a'contract had not been awarded and work begun it was not about to go ahead".

What this meant was that projects such as Wabush Airport, where a number of contracts remained to be awarded to complete the $11 million job,were halted and held up for a year. 1 7 ~ ~ ' .. - ..

March 24,1981 Tape No. 605 AH-1 MR. BENNETT: The Small Crafts Harbour projects, Mr. Speaker,has got a great bearing on my district because the district is made up of thirty-two tiny communities and they all have small harbours. 'The Small Crafts Harbour projects,wharves and breakwaters in many parts of the Provine~, so important to the fishermen, were held up because the freeze instituted by John Crosbie, Newfoundlander who became Finance Minister of Canada.'our own Newfoundlander- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

BENNETT: -when he got the opportunity to freeze Canada's federal spending in Newfoundland,he brought down that freeze on his people, the people who sent him up to Ottawa.'Funds for roads to industrial parks at Stephenville and Corner Brook were similarly frozen.' AN HON.MEMBER: Foolishness! MR. BENNETT: I do not think that is foolishness, Mr. Speaker, it is just the truth and sometimes the truth hur:ts. 'It was also the Tory administration that announced calculation of Canada Works programmes preventing millions of dollars from being spent in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.' SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

BENNETT: Now I do not know what the people in my district would do if we had no Canada Works proqramme. AN HON. MEMBER: That is why our unemployment rate dropped to twelve per cent last month. MR. BENNETT: Now, Mr. Speaker, somewhere along the line here in my notes, I would like to touch on what the Department of Social Services apparently wants to be doing to take people of the \-lelfare rolls so that they can collect unemployment insurance. Now to carry on with 1 1, (" '"'- ..

March 24,1981 Tape No. 605 AH-2 MR. BENNETT: this here a little bit further. 'The record of the Liberal government- the Liberal federal government over these past years as it relates to Newfoundland and Labrador speaks for itself.' Now to skip over, not bore you with too much of the reading here, 'It is interesting therefore to note the following list of federal expenditures estimated by a federal department 3 for the year 1980-1981. 1 If you would bear with me for a minute I will read you some of these exp~nnitures ,some of the federal expenditures estimated by federal departmen~ for the year 1980-1981.

Now it is no wonder, Mr. Speaker 1 that this goverhment hates Ottawa as much as they do because they hate Joe Smallwood for what he did for the Province. sa-lE :OON. MEMBERS: Hear , he.ar ~ MR. BENNETT: And they hate Ottawa for what it is doing for the Province. MR. NEARY: They hate the Liberals, period. MR. BENNETT: It is a Liberal government in Ottawa,Mr. Speaker,and this Tory government hates Liberalism, it hates Ottawa, it hates progress in Newfoundland in case Ottawa get credit.

Now here is some of the spending. 'It is interesting therefore to note the following list of federal expenditures estimated by federal d~partments over the year 19S0-1981. Public Works $43 million! AN HON. MEMBER: What! A Lib~ral government spent that much in Newfoundland? MR. BENNETT: Now here is a small portion of DREE. $59- million,Mr. Speaker. National Defence,$34 million. Listen to this one,Mr. Mines and Energy - My time is not up already is it? MR. SPEAKER (Butt}; Five minutes. 1 7 2 = ''I ''I

March 24,1981 HR. BENNETT: $39,447,000. MR. MOORES: ~!R. BENNETT: $39,447,000. SOME HON.MEMBERS: HR. BENNETT: Tape No. 605 AH-3 Energy Mines .and .Resources 1 Repeat that. Repeat that. Energy Mines and Resources Hear, hear! It is no wonder the minister hates Ottawa. I do not know why they hate Ottawa. :'27

"'larch 24, 1981 Tape NO. 606 EL - 1 :1R. BENNETT: I just cannot for the life of me figure their way of thinking. Employment - listen to this one, Mr. Speaker, Employment and Immigration $350,677,000 National Health and Welfare, Mr. Minister of Health (W. House), $380 million from Ottawa. Fisheries and Oceans, Nr. Minister of Fisheries (J. Morgan), $55,500,000. Secretary of State, $50 million. Supply and Services, $22,251,000. Department of Veterans Affairs, $24,210,000~ Transport Can­ ada, more than $100 million. Listen to this Mr.

Speaker, $265,000,000 on top of that, $265,000,000 after this was spent on - spent by the Federal Government in salaries and adrninisteringtheseprojects i~ Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. It is no wonder they hate Ottawa, because if we could only have a Liberal Government back in this Province you would never see a ~ory Government for another fifty years. Well, Mr. Speaker, that adds up to, I think, something like nearly a billion and a half dol­ lars. Now, Mr. Speaker, I believe ! mentioned once before in the ten years that this government has had tne rei .ns of power they have quadrupled the provincial debt.

Now, Mr. Speaker, this one and a half billion from Ottawa is only this past year. ing - MR. NEARY: railway. MR. BENNETT : · Mr. Speaker, that is not ten years of spend- That was $47 million .to_day for the $47 million today for the rail- way. $47million £or froestry. None of that is in here. Look, this government, they are continually flogging Ottawa and·giving them- giving Ottawa no credit. Every time a programme comes out on Ottawa like Retrofit, the various ministers for these departments expect to get the credit, ... i ~ ...., I . ~ - •... '•J

Harch 24, 1981 Tape NO. 606 EL - 2 MR. BE:-."NETT : t·hey want to give Ottawa no c·red- it 1and the only way that they can ever stay in pswer them- selves is if they can be financed by Ottawa, have the cash flow come down from Ottawa. The hon. gentleman from the Bay of Islands(L. Woodrow) has stepped outside but, Mr.Speaker, some of the money is being spent in his districtand in my district. I represent St. Barbe and the Federal riding in the Gras Marne Park is $14 million this year being spent on a roads programme by the Federal Government. Mr.

Speaker, the Northern Pen- insula roads, $60 million is being spent on upgrading and paving on the Northern Peninsula. A subsidiary agreement passed by the Liberals for $28 million for West Newfound- land in the Corner Brook, Stephenville area, there was $28 million passed by the Liberals - just listen, Mr. Speaker- passed by the Liberal Government. They went out of power and that was frozen by the Tories, not going to be spent. The Tories were kicked out of office in Ottawa, the Liberals were put back in and the $28 million was again reinstated for West Newfoundland,which is Corner Brook and Stephenville.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BENNETT: So we are going to have the $28 million spent by Ottawa in West Newfoundland •. ~tr. Speaker. $15 million to the Stephenville Linerboard Mill, tax write offs, $1.7 million to the Stephenville airport and $1.2 million to the Deer Lake airport, $2million to the Deer Lake Post Office, $2.7 million Harbour dredging in Stephenville. $3 million Canada - in my district, in the area, the federal riding on the West coast, Hr. Speaker, 1 ., ; .. ,

c-Iarch 24, 1981 Tape 607 ?K - l MR. BENNETT: $33 million for modernizing the t~o paper mills in the Province. SOME HON. HEMBERS: Eear, hear! AN HON. ME."1BER: You do not have it yet. 2-!R • NE.i\R y : signed. Yes you have. The agreement is Y!R. BENNETT: ~est of what I ru~ speaking of here was spent in my district, in the fede~al riding, t~e district, ~rr. Speaker, that the hen. member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) said he had no communication with the federal member for that distric~. Well, ~r.

Speaker, with all that kind of money being spent in the district I do not think the member for the Bay of Islands needs to be in communication with his federal member. ~!R. SPEAKER (Mr. Butt) SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. WALSH: Thank you, .1-!r. Speaker. The hon. member for Henihek. Hear, hear! Thank you, c•!r. Spea:..:er. :•!r. Speaker, I •tiould like :::,efore I start my little talk in the Address in Reply,to relate to an experience I had outside of this House concerning ~yself, and unfortunately the gentleman is not in his seat, the hon.

Leader of the Opposition - it was very embarrassing really - while visiting one of the local hospitals ~ was mistaken for the Leader of the Opposition. AN HON. ME."1BER: ~!R. WALSH: Oh, no. And the thing is, the serious part about it, Mr. Speaker, was that the person concerned was a resident of the hon. gentleman's district. SOME HON . MEHBE1 <.S : Oh, oh! AN HON. ~'!-EMBER: You were paid a comp:i~ent. .. , ''I ''I

:-larch 24, 1981 Tape 607 PK - 2 1·1R. I~ALSH: Hy, my, my, roaybe he should (inaudible). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! :-IR. \~ALSH: I am not that foolish. MR. STAGG: He is going to change his driver's licence. MR. WALSH: I fully intend to do that. Mr. Speaker, the majority of the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador have shown their support for our Premier's stand on the constitutional issue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WALSH: As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, I have not heard any comment in my district, especially,to oppose this government's stand on any of the problems we have with the federal government. On the contrary, ·Mr. Speaker, I have only heard praise for the Premier's hard insistence on our rights. AN HON . MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. WALSH: Mr. Speaker, I will speak briefly on some of the issues dealt with in the Throne Speech. Hydro development transmission; We have in Labrador one of the largest potential hydro developmentsin the Western World,and once more, Mr. Speaker, we are being stifled by the federal government in their attitude - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WALSH: Mr. Speaker, may I have the protection of the Chair,-please? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Butt): Order, please! ''I The han. member requests to be heard in silence. MR. WALSH: - in that the federal government, Mr. Speaker, refuses to-exercise its authority through the National Energy Board ,to allow transmission of our hydro through the Province of Quebec. Equal rights, Mr. Speaker . 1 ... : ..

Harch 24, 1981 Tape 607 PK - 3 HR. WALSH: It seems that if one looks at history and at the present,Newfoundlanders are doomed and destined to go on forever as the underdogs of this great nation, MR. WALSH: way, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. HEMBER: HR. WALSH: - if Pierre Elliott Trudeau has his (Inaudible) . It seems that the resources of other parts of Canada as they become known or developed, . . are given to the provinces and controlled by the people, why not in Newfoundland and Labrador? SOHE HON. HEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. WALSH: Mr.

Speaker, the great potential in the other part of our Province, Labrador, is one perfect example of the ignorance of the federal government, where this Province has and still continue at this moment trying to convince the Mongolian hordes of Ottawa of the great potential in Labrador by requesting DREE funding to develop roads, and in particular a Trans-Labrador Highway, in order that the people of the area can become and be treated as normal Canadians- SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. WALSH: - and that we may get on with the necessary development of the vast resources. But, Mr.

Speaker to no avail, they will not even sit down and discuss our proposals. AN HON. MEMBER: Who is that? HR. WALSH: The National Government. ~x. Speaker, the National Government in Ottawa have been downgrading the people of this Province ever since it became a part of the Canadian nation. AN HON. HEMBER: (Inaudible) full of bull. MR. FLIGHT: Right. 1 7 'C ·~ .... '-- •· ..,

:-:a:cch 24, 1981 Tape 607 PK - 4 c·1R. \·L~LSH: using the Newfoundland Raih:ay is a perfect example, Mr. Speaker. And ,of course we know that t.he ?C Party \vas not in power in this Province at the time, :-~either was the PC Party in Ottawa. the so-called great Liberal Party. ~!R. H.A0<COCK: ( I!1audible) We all know who - ~!R. \vALSH : ::'rom the table Just a drop in the bucket, crumbs 1 .. ,

c1arch 24, 1981 t-L'<. \VALSH: Tape No. 508 To kee9 us alive. EL-l Mr. Speaker, the good people of Newfoundland and Labrador have finally realized, God bless them, that the Liberal Party in this Province was not and never l'lill be tl"'.eir friend. M~. S TEWJI.RT : M~. WALSH: SOME HON. MEMBERS: !:!ear, hear! I have another turn tomorrow, too. Oh, oh! MR. WALSH: Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Feds in Ottawa, with the backing of their buddy Liberal friends here in Newfoundland and Labrador, are still treating the great people of this Province as - not as second-class citizens, Mr.

Speaker, no, mare like fourth-class citizens, and they have always done that. MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) Province. MR. WALSH: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the people of Canada are starting to wake up also. They are starting to realize that the Liberal Prime Minister, while the economy of this great nation is going down the tube, is on an ego trip. Yes, Mr. Speaker, on an ego trip. He has threatened the good people of this great nation that he will patriate the constitution at any cost, Mr. Speaker, for one reason only, Mr.

Speaker, one reason, that it can be written down in the history books that he was the great Liberal Prime Minister who was successful in bringing the BNA ~ct home to Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MP.. 1-iALSH: That is the only reason, Mr.Speaker . Egotis~ical reasons, that is all. He has no concern for the people of this nation, none. ~1r. Speaker, the treatment towards the Canadian people is insanity at its highest and they, the Canadian people, Mr. Speaker - ''I

11arch 24, 1981 MR. FLIGHT: ~lR. WALSH: HR. FLIGHT: MR. lvALSH: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. W.lU.SH: , 'I'a?e ~lo. 608 SD - 2 (Inaudi~le) Labrador City. I ~ost certainly did already. (Inaudible) Sneech in ~abrador Citv . I already did, sent it to Aurora Oh, oh. The re'.vard; 'rhe people of Canada will reward the great Liberal Party in the next election - they will 'vine them completely out of office. SOME HON. ME!,lBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : SOHE HON. MEMBERS: HR. THOHS: Thank you, ~-lr. Speaker. Hear, hear . The hon. member for Grand Bank. Hear, hear . Thank you very ~uch, Mr. Speaker.

I did anticipate getting a chance to read the paper while the hon. member >Vas S?eaking but I did not even get a chance to finish the

article on the clash between the Hinister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) and my friend from Windsor - Buchans (l!lr. Flight). Hr. Speaker, you know, in the three or four or five minutes that I heard - MR. HANCOCK: tomorrow. MR. THOMS: AN HON. MEMBER: tomorrow. MR. THm1S: The real clash is going to come - this government, this administration - The hon. flat-bed is on the table - has spent a lot of time since they '.Vere first elected back in 1972 criticizing Otta•v-a, criticizing the Right Hon. Mr. rrudeau. AN HON. ME-"1BER: So he has ;uts enough after fifteen vears, to brincr home t~P Constitution. ~lR.

THOMS: i think this is the first time since 1972 that anybody has gotten up in the House and asked protection of Your Honour's Chair in order to criticize Mr. Trudeau. That is what I ~eard this a=ternoon. Simply what he ..

c'larc!J. 24, 1981 Tape No. 608 SD - 3 Yl.R. THOMS: wanted, he wanted five minutes silence so that he could attack Ottawa. How many times do we, as an Opposition, have to tell the people of Newfoundland exactly what is going on, exactly .. , ' -"" -

~arc~ 24, 1981, Tape 609, Page 1 -- apb MR. THOMS: who is damaging this Province, who is costing this Province an awful lot because of the - it is an attitude, Mr. Speaker, that I fail to understand. This year from Ottawa, coming into this Province, $1.3 billion. Now, nowhere out of all the castigating of Ottawa that I have heard in this House, not once, has the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) advised the people of this Province, or this House, that they were returning any of that money. Now, I understand, through their stupidity there is money available in Ottawa that we have not taken advantage of.

I understand that has happened on occasion, there is money there and we have not gone after it. Mr. Speaker, that is stupidity. I am not quite sure, Mr. Speaker, whether to use the word 'stupid' or 'stupidity' is unparliamentary or not. MR. NEARY: No, boy. ~- THOMS: Mr. Speaker, you know, it is not easy to make a speech in this House of Assembly, it is extremely difficult. For example, Mr. Speaker, as much as I would like to, but it would be unparliamentary for me to do it, I cannot call the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) a bag of wind, that is unparliamentary. I cannot do it. Mr.

Speaker, I cannot call him_a _sewer pipe - AN HON. Mlli~BER: (Inaudible) Mr. Speaker , at all. MR. THOMS: i'lR. SPEAKER(Butt): .7;.N HON. MEMBER: cute, was it not? - that is unparliamentary. Order, please! That is cute. That was MR. THOMS: It is unparliamentary. cannot call the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) an ass, Mr. Speaker, that is unparliamentary. 1 7 3 ~ I I .. , 'I

~~==~ 24, 1981, Tape 609 , Page 2 apb ~!...~ . 1'301-!.S : cannot do it . :!...~ . Stl-~RY : A point of order, Mr . S?eaker. L~ . BUT-'!' : A point of order . The ;-,o n. the .:-liniste.r of .\lines and Energy . :-L~ . ~.?.RY : The hon. ~ember is here abo ut a vear now and I =i~~red that he would have by this -:.2-'"':l.e - :-L~ . THQ:\15 : Almost t•.,·o years . .1\lmost t·,.;o yeazs now , do net mi slead this Hou se . c·Lq, • B..ll. R..l<Y : - have •mderstcod the rules of the Sou se . Obviou sl y he has not .

The hon . membe ::: cannot do indirectly what he is not: permitted to do directly and I ask that he \~ithdraw these spurious libel s ;:hat he has thrown across tile Hou se at both myself a:1d ::he :-tin ister o£ ::'isheries, and t~at he be severel y c:-. astL ;ed. )Lq , SFE..:l.KER : Nobod y speaking to tile poin::. of order? ,.Lq. aJ!..?-~Y : ::-1o , the y obviousl~ .\!~ . S?EAKER : To the point of order - ~q . 5AR..~ETT : There is no excuse =or !:lad manners . ;.3. . 5?E.Al<ER : ~ o the point o= order I ·.,ould :::~le ::here is a legitUiate point of order .

The •• 1 hen . :ne:nb er cannot sa y i:1directly wh at he would not direct.l v and the refore I ·,..rould ask him to wi ~hdra;..r t~ose renarks . sm!.:: F. ON . ~! E)!B E-'<S : Hear , hear ! .\8. . '!EO:-ts : Mr. S?eaker, I am onl y ~co :,.ap9 y ~o comp ly ·,;it~ Your Honour • s request to ~vithdra,,,, -.:l1esa remark s. I g-:.1ess I t"ill ju st have to go on t..'ti.nki:'lg ::!":e n . However, ~r. Speaker , it ;.a.; !:lee:; :::·.1:ec. t.mpaz lia-r.entary since 19 58 , ·,;it..'1 one 1 ~ .... ' ~

March 24, 1981, Tape 609, Page 3 -- apb MR. THOHS: exception now, we have a new precedent set on that matter, it has been ruled parliamentary, 1739 .. ,

!·larch 24, 1981 Tape No. 610 SD - l MR. L. THOMS: of course, to call the other side 'black sheep'. I am not quite sure, Mr. Speaker, whether 'trained seal' is parliamentary or unparliamentary. 1•1R. NEARY : Yes it is, it is parliamentary . ~·IR. THOMS : That may be parliamentary. But we are seeing a lot of 'trained seals', if it is parliamentary. If it is unparliamentary, Mr. Speaker - SOAE HON. MEMBERS: Withdraw it. c•!R. THOMS : - if it is unparliamentary I withdraw it. But, Mr. Speaker, I believe it certainly is in order to call them 'mouthpieces', 'phonies'. It is certainly in order, Mr.

Speaker, check Beauchesne, you lvill see that 'phony' is an acceptable parliamentary word. r.IR. BARRY Is this furthering the business of the House and of the Province? HR: HANCOCK: That is certainly lvhat the government is doing and what they are. 1-lR. THOMS: It is also, ~1r. Speaker, very parli~~entary and very apt and very proper and very right,under the conditions that we have in this Province ~oday, to call members on the opposite side separatist - MR. BARRY: I was wondering when he was going to take the high road. c1R. THOMS: - because I believe that they are showing it.

I believe when the member for Menihek (Mr. Walsh) got on his feet r I think it carne through loud and ~'.ear. Anyone who would come into this House, ~lr. Speaker - and the ~1inister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) , Mr. Speaker, had the audacity to sit there and say, 'What has this got to do with anything?', after his o\Vn member, the member for Menihek, got up and asked for the protection of the Chair so t~~ hon. member could lambaste and criticize and set=ilously attack the ' . , I 1 .., ' . J "! .... .,

March 24, 1981 MR. L. THOMS: HR. NEARY: Tape No. 610 Prime Minister of this country. A distinguished Canadian. SD - 2 MR. THOHS: A distinguished Canadian, undoubtedly, and probably the most distinguished Canadian- . MR. HANCOCK: Of all the Prime Ministers that we have had in Canada. MR. THOHS: great nation of ours. SOHE HON. HEHBERS : MR. THOHS: - in the whole history of this Hear, hear! Now, Mr. Speaker, I have absolutely no hesitation, none whatsoever in stating in this House of Assembly, MI.

Speaker, that I ~gree wholeheartedly, 100 per cent, with what the Prime Minister of Canada is doing vis-a-vis the Constitution. I agree 100 per cent with what he is doing and I am prepared to go before the electorate of the district of Grand Bank tomorrow and say so and fight an election on that issue. AN HON. HEHBER: Why do you not resign? MR. THOMS: I will resign if the Minister of Mines and Energy can find the courage to come back to the Burin Peninsula after being kicked out. Corne on back, I will resign, you have my word for it.

If you want to run against me in the district of Grand Bank, let the Premier of this Province give me the guarantee that the han. minister will come down to Grand Bank and-run against me. I will resign tomorrow and I would love every minute of it. The hon. member has already shown that he is only acceptable to the hard-core Tory voters of this Province. And do not tell me, Mr. Speaker, .. , ., ' 'I about the minister's district. ' 1 MR. NEARY: by the way. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: You are talking about my member, Oh, oh! 1 ~ 4 ~ .. ,

)larch 24, 1981 Tape No . 610 so - 3 ~1R . THOMS : ~tr . Speaker , I am talking about my member . I did not vote for him and I hope my wife never aCmits that she voted ::or him either. :OlR . S.;NCOCK : Your wife was one of the calls that I ~~de and she did ~ot even know who her member was . Your •vi ::":e was one of the .m. HR . FLIGF!T : Placentia said ~vhat they wanted to say regarding that member. S0l1E HON • ~1El'tBERS : Oh, oh! MR. THOl'-15 : Mr . Spea.'::er, we !'l.ave seen, I guess, particularly since this session of the House started, a certaL~ decadence in politics on 1 7 ~: .. ..

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 611 GS - 1 MR. TH0!-1S: the government side of the House. There is something, Mr. Speaker, rotten in the state of the Liberal government and the Liberal party of this Province. l'le sa'tl the first example of it - SOHE HON. HE~..BERS : Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: - we saw the first example - :1R. NEARY: The Tory government you mean. MR. THOMS: I think all han. members know that I am talking about the Tory party even though there may have been a lapsus lingual and I mentioned one - SOHE HON. HEHBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

THOHS: I will have to find out tonight what a slip of the tongue, Madame Minister, is in French. Instead of using Latin I can use the French. But there is something rotten in the Tory party of this Province. There is something rotten in the Tory administration of this Province, apar~ from the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) . Okay? lv"'ha t did we see in the last session? l'ie saw the Public Accounts Committee bring in a unanimous recommendation, a unanimous opinion that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Horgan) had publicly and knowingly contravened the Public Tendering Act. And what did we see?

We saw this brave, young T_:::-ojan hero of ours, 'Little Alfie', stand up in this House and justify it, justify it, try to justify it, and weaselled down in his seat again. We saw the Minister of Labour and Hanpm·ler (Mr. Dinn) and the Minister of Transportation and Communi- cations (Mr. Brett), both of them going off half stupidly, half-wittedly, half-cockedly, half every~hing else, signing petitions, signing petitions. Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, can you imagine being Premier of this Province, being the head of a Cabinet and having one of your ministers sign a . ~ I

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 611 GS - 2 MR. THOMS: petition criticizing your administra- tion and then coming into this House and standing up and admitting that he had not read it. He admitted that he had not read it. He just signed it. So we have two cases there. Now, at least the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) showed a little more sense in signing the petition when he crossed out the reference to the insult to the administration. I would suggest that the people of Newfoundland would not have cut out the reference to the insult, but at least the Minister of Transportation did it. Then, Mr.

Speaker, what do we find? What do we find? Very shortly thereafter -Mr. Speaker, we will wait for the ruling to find out whether or not you can call these fake documents that were tabled in this House by the Minister of Transportation, but I am telling you it would appear to me - and I am not making any reference to the minister - but it would appear to me that these documents are as phony as a three-dollar bill. Mr. Speaker, I do not know how many here have read Ian Fleming or seen any of the James Bond movies,but you will remember that the big cheese, the head man, the head man in the James Bond movies is a Mr.

M., a Mr. M. What do we get here? A memo to Barry- I assume now this is not the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry), I am making that assumption - I do not know who this Mr. Barry is - to Barry - I do not know who Barry is. !_do not know if it is a first name. I do not know if it is a surname. It is just to Barry. I do not know if it is Malcolm Barry or whether it is Barry Malcolm, okay? Thic; is a me!"orandum to Barry from- guess who?- M., M. AN HON. MDIBEF.: Madam. MR. THOMS: It should read to 007 from M., Mr. Speaker. It would make about as much sense. Now, there is an indication, 1 / I ' "I

March 24, 1981 Tape No. 612 IB-1 MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, there is a rumor to the effect that this Barry, this either Barry Jones or Jones Barry , is an executive assistant to the Minister of Transportation or some gopher within the department. MR. NEARY: A political - MR. THOMS: A political appointment within the Department. r-rR. NEARY: Right. MR. THOMS: So who prepares the intradepartmental memorandum? Again we see it is from Barry this time to minister. Now, Mr. Speaker, there has got to be somewhere a legitimate invoice or a bill for the services rendered by the Department of Transportation. And, Mr.

Speaker, you know, do not blame me for being upset when something like this happens. I had the occasion a very short time ago when I was trying to get a low-bed to move a home from within the community of Point May in my district. Aylward's low-bed was broken down. They were waiting for the parts to come to get it fixed. I called companies in Clarenville and in St. John's and, you know, the expense, the cost of getting one to go from St. John's down to Point May and back again portal-to-portal was just tooexpensive.

So I tried the Department of Highways and it did not take the Department of Highways long to tell me what the policy was. It did not take ~hem long'to tell me what the policy was. Now, Mr. Speaker, should the minister have any more privileges with the Department of High­ pays, or the minister of any department, than any ordinary average citizen in this Province? My constituent was turned down flatly. There was no question about oolicy. I could not write a memo from minister to DM or DN on Dec~~ber 16, 1980 asking him to move the house across the road for any cost. But as I was saying, Mr.

Speaker, we have here an intradepartmental memorandum from a political 1 7 4 : .. , ''I

Harch 24 , 1981 Tape No . 612 IB -2 HR . T:IO:.!S : appointment •.vithin the Depart."llent Ef Trans;ortation outlin in g the cost . Now it is dated Pebruary 11, 1981. Certainly you can date a memor