VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m.- 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, JULY 27, 1979 NO. 11

~u1y 27, 1979, Tape 350, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 10:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ----- Mr. Speaker, my question u for the hen. the Premier. In view of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that we have all been following with a great deal of interest and concern probably one of the most human interest stories in this century involving the Boat People- now that Canada is accepting several thousand, and I do not remember the exact number of Boat People in Canada - I wonder if the hen. gentleman could indicate to the House if any of these Boat People will be coming to Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECXFORD : I do not have the answer to that question, Mr. Speaker.

I can undertake to get the answer to the question as it relates to the federal programme, or the Canadian programme for accepting Boat People. I can indicate to the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) that in the last ten days or so, the government itself, the Government of Newfoundland has been looking at that very human interest problem, if you will, that has gained the attention of people everywhere and a fairly strong outpouring of humanitarism and generosity has been displayed by people on all continents, I guess, and we ourselves are just reviewing the stand the government representing all the people of Mewfoundland should take and whe~~er there are initiatives that we can take in our own right to show our concern as well.

Hopefully, within the next couple of days, perhaps sometime next week, we might be in a position to indicate our kind 87"7

July 27, 1979, Tape 350, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: of response to the Boat People. MR. NEARY: Just a brief supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): d supplementary. The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Sir, I thank the hon. gentleman for his answer and I would like the hon. gentleman to try to find out.when he is getting· the information, how many will be coming to Newfoundland and where they will be - if indeed any are coming, and I have heard that some are coming to Newfoundland, they will probably be coming to every Province of Canada - how many are coming to this Province and .. where they will settle in this Province and what kind of a programme either the Government of Canada or the Province has to receive these people. I would like for the hon. gen~leman to get that information too if he could.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, the reason why ! answered on the Canadian side the way I did was because as I understand the programme, and I just scanned it in the papers or heard it on the news the same as anybody else, is that there is this private 878

July 27,1979 '!'ape No.351 AH-l ?~~I!R ?ECKFORD: is saying that we will allow a certain number and then it can be sponsored by grcups. individuals and so on and there are families who are accepting one or cwo and there are non-profit charitable organizations acceptinq so many, etc., etc., etc. And I Ullderstand­ we know off a number that are coming to Newfoundland on the auspices of a c:!lurch group or individuals and so on.

We will try and get the list for the hon. ~ember in the next couple of days and meanwhile, we are ourselves cognizant of the problems and seeing whether, given the restraint, given c.ur limited resources, there is something special that we could do as well. !m. SPEAKER: (Si.lmns) MR. WHITE: The hen. member for Lewisporte. I have a question. and in view of the weather and the time of the year it is an important one.

It is directed at the Minister' of Tourism (Mr .~er) and results from a public utterance by the minister earlier this week, I t.'link it was on a!C radio and involves a fairly large coiii:Nnity in ~ewfoundland, namely, the trailer people and the outdoor calliPers and so on. Can the minister elaborate on a statement he made earlier in t:.lie week that the qcverrunent plan to close off all gravel pits ami other areas of t.'le Province that are not particularly designated now for trailer parking and campinq? Could he tell us whether or not they plan to do this right across the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hen.

Minister of Tourism. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, as the member for t.ewisporte obviously r.nows being involved in the tourist business, there is a great deal of problems ·,.,i th .- trailering, trailer parks and the like . We,as the government of Newfoundland supply a great deal of camp sites throuqh means of our Provincial ?arks. We, as a government and as a Department of Tourism are beqinning to realize that in order to fully satisfy the demand for trailer needs within the ?rovtnce.a lot of it it going to have to be done through private business people. In order 879

:uly 27,1979 ~R. POWEP: Tape N'o. 351 AH-2 to do that we have to ~ake certain conditions that would be suitable to a person getting involved in business in the trailering aspects, to start a trailer park or ~~at type of thing.

In order to do that,we cannot have the situations that arise now in many parts of the Province where a man starts a slll4l.l trailering outfit but because there is a. gravel pit down the road the man simply will not be able to make a dollar and possibly go broke. we are now preparing a policy for government to try and protect those persons who are in private enterprise in the trailerinq business, to make sure that if they do invest a great deal of money to start a trailer park they will not go broke because down the road there is a gravel pit where people can park free of charge even though there are no services in those areas.

St:i.ll., for s0111e reason, people in Newfoundland decide to use a gravel pit where there are no ser?ices as o~osed to a trailer park where fees may be five or six dollars a. day for all the services that are required. So we are trying to develop a pr~ to aceo100date businesSlllen who want to get involved in the trailerinq business and give them a certain degree of protection. MR. SPEAKER: (Silmls) member for Lewisporte. lffi. WHITE: A supplementary. The hen. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the minister how soon he plans to move on regulating the camper- trailer business in the Province and also to ask him about the environmental aspects of people goint into gravel pits and ot.~er areas. Certainly there must be other reasons for doing this rather than just to protect private enterprise. the environmental aspects of it. I wonder if the minister has considered,cr the government has considered looking at areas that might be set aside with environmentally controlled aspects to it? 1-'..R. Sl'EAKER: The hen. minister. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, yes we are.

The member for Lewisporte also is aware of~ as I &aid, the environmental problems because one of 880

July 21, 1979 Tape 352 EC - l tlle real problems of u.sing gravel pits and that t:ype of thing for tra.ilering, wlli.ch happens alone; all our major ;ugnways and probably almcst all of our secondAry roads, is the fact that chera are no ci~m~ping staticma, there is no quilaqe c:ollection, and inevitably almost a.l.l of this - tlla seweraqe d~m~pinq thinq - is d'UIIIPI!d araund the ~·-l pit itself, there is a. great deal of gubaqe left around almast every graval pit, almcst every little side road is being strewn with. a.ll G.inds of guilaqe. and this is one of the reasons that we as a Dep~t of Tourism which. talc.es certain controls, t guess, over tr.llilerinq, altbouqb. not tlle anviro~t itself, but over CUIPing and that type of thing, that we are new t.z:yinq to - yesterday my staff wu J?reparing ill paper to s- wb.ere we c:ould put mgre d~inq stations within the Province alonq key parts of our b.iqhroads for the -•raqe part of it.

AA;ain, that is one of the IIIAjor reasons wily we nave to involve J?rivate enterprise in developing c:ampsi tas r because no provinc:ia.l. government in ;my pmvince should t&Ka sole responsibility for providinq that type of c:onsumar pro®ct such as trailerinq pazlta. So as t s&y, in order to get the wl:lola thing going the private sector of business l:las got to get involved. tn order to do that we nave to put it on an envirollllll!nta.l. level ;m.d on just a business la'IIWi to protect those pars~ so aa to malta it feasible for the1ll to get involvad in business.

Aqain, we as a department, are extremely c:oncerned about whAt is happeninq to the environment as. a result of campinq. t would say that probably the only real complainta we qat as a. Departmant of Tourism f:rcm i'8Qple outside th.e Province is what is happeninq to th.e envi:rcnment froa car wnc:ka to thinqs araund ~a.va.l pits and that type of thing. MR.. F • WHI'l'E: MR.. SPEAlCER: ( S.illmB ) Lewisporte. ~- F. 'lllil'l'E: Mr. Spealter 1 a supplementary. A supplea.ntary 1 the hon. the lllelllber for Mr.

Spealter, t would like to ask the lllinister if the govarnmen t has changed its pb.ilosoplly "'i t.'"l respect to provincial parks. I also neard him say publicly ~at from now on the qoverna.nt would not take such a l:liqh profile with respect to provincial parks and may, indeed, phase out o:f it alt:oqether. Could he ela.borate on t:h.at, please? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture. 881.

Ju.ly 271 1979 Tape 352. EC - 2 MR. POWER: Mr. SpeaJcer 1 the lllll.lllbu for IAvisporte (Mr. F. White) obviously has eitller lllisc:cD&truad. sometAing ! said. or added. ta it. ! did not say that we are qcing ta :ilhUe out of provinciAl. parjcs. Obviously, aay go-.mmaat has tn. rupcmsiQility ta Sll(lllly that type of sarvi.ca to the public:.

What ! dJ,d say is tha1:. - as a provinc:ia.l. go~t sboulci ra-vaJ.uate our poait.icrl of beinq the sole Mjor con'trlbutar aDd. the sale lll&jor suppU8r of CD~paitaa, tha.t if the tourist buailwss is qcinq ta do for a province wna.t it should. ao, it baa to be dona thxow;tL privata enurprise. Obviously 1 the qcve=-nt should not qet inwlved. let ,.- say, in the UWA of Leviaporta, put1:inq in a vert luqe provinciAl. park aad. tharafora put1:inq three or four pri.vate business pe%$0118 out of bus:iness in tba trailaring business or ciisc:cw:aqing . smwme alae froa qet1:inq in.

If the. tourist industrt is qcinq ta do for the ac:cnomy wb&t it should, it h.1.a to be Clone t!uouqh the privata sector. so all wa are saying in tha Oep&rt118Dt of 'l'ouriam. is that wa would lllUci:l prater ta anc:curaqa a privata bua:inassiUil to qat involvad in setting up C&IIIP&itsa thaD for ua ta axpud a pmvincial par.k. i1i a.n area. MR. n.IGH'r: MR. SPEAICER: (Sillas) Windsor - Btldlans. MR.. FLIGH'r: Mr. Speaker - as he is awue 1 ri.ght Mr. Speaker 1 a supplamentuy. A suppl.ament~, the !:Jon. the -lllber for I would l.iJte ta ask the min.istar 1 • 882

.July 27, 1979 Tape No. 353 so - l .m. G. :'L!CiiT: llQW in the Province, certainly along tha Trans Canada or t!1e major trunk roads: t..'ler<: are only three or four private campsites or tra.il.erinq facilities as b.e has i.DI:iicated.

Has the lllinis~er got any indication tnat t.~e are eno11qh people in~erested in settinq up private camp.si tes and trailerinq areas in Newfoundland that would take care of the thousands and t.'10usands of people who de chose to park in c;rave1 pits. as he calls it~ and. other areas .• tnat they were put in a position to say new that we are ~ut ta close dawn t.'lOse various pits and t..~at? Is he aware of people who wlll,.indeed.,put in the facllities that we require in this Province ta take care of the problem that he is ref errinq ta? MR. SPEAKER: (Silmnsl The !:len.

Minister of Tourism, Re=eation and C'.ll.tw:e. :1R. C. POi'i'ER: 1-'.r. Speaker, r thank the mem.ber for his question. ~ince r became the :..U.nis~er of Tourism in March, one of the c;re.at:est, commonest occw:rences at;- my office is persons coming in with a proposal to start some type of small ca.bin systems, trallerinq, set up some campsites,fcr "'!ater and sewer !10okllps ~ electricity hcokups.and almost daily we have people come inta :rry department wh.o are locking for the ·..-herewi thal of setting up different trailering parks all across the Province.

Now, obviously, they can net do that on t..~eir own if they do not have some deqree of protection. r mean, obviously, if we, as a provincial government are going to supply campsites;even thou~u they be unserviced 4n the sense that we are only _;;upplyinq just a campsite itself and a. little fire p.:~.t- •,..e, in our provincial parks do not supply the electricity backups, the water bJokups or the sewer hooKu.ps _. but even t..'len, if wP- are going to supply a campsite to a camper at ~2.50 per day, then, obviously, it !!lakes it a..l.most ilolpossi.ble for a. private entrepreneur to go out and supply a campsite that is ~6.00 a day or ss.oo a day,because t..~at is ·..-hat it is going to cost if someone wants ~o go in ... here there are electricity, water and sewer nookups.

So, quite simply, all we are saying is ~~at we, as a departmen~, ~ave got to ~~ to encourage 883

July 27' 1979 Tape ~lc. 353 so - 2 :·1R. C. ?OWER: that type of business. One way to do it ·..auld be tQ- i.f a. guy is going to bulld. a. trailaring park,say lcok, ten m.iles either side of llim,as a pcsaibility, we will ngt allow parsons to camp in gravel pits alii! that type of t!U.nq. Now, that can only be done on a. very graduated. scale. You could. net de it on the Avalon ?e:cinsula. where there is much mere demand., or iiiAYbe even close to soma of the cities where there is a. much greater demand for campaites then would ever be available even fr= the private or public sector. ~1.~.

SPEAKER: (Simms) The hen. :nem.ber fer acnaviata North. :1R. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of questions that cculd be asked. a.bcut thAt but I would like to change the subject to another emergency we sean · to have acd. illa.Y be the Premier can tall me whc is handling the emergency caused !Jy the Red Cross strike? Is it the .'tinister of liealth (:-l.r.W. acuse) or is it the .'tinistar of Labour and Manpower (Mr. .J. uinn) ? Which minister should I <tirect the questicr. to? ~R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

J?RE:UER I?ECXFORD: I take it is ngt here, he shculd be handling that. the .'tinister of H..alth · ... ho If the hon. member is lcoki:og for some information relative to the supply of blood through the Canadian ::<ed Cross because c£ the strike that: they have ongoing, ~o~e will try to get: that infoD~~aticn to the hen. member this morning. I will have somebody check with the uepart:nent of Health right I¥)W to bring the hen. membar up to date. Unless he has a specific, 884

J'uly 27' 1979 Tape No. 354 ow - 1 ?'?.E!-!IER PEca'ORD: garticular question relative to it rather than the general question of where we are on i~. ~. SPE1JI::ER (SI!-'.MS) : ~. L. STIRLDTG: T~e hen. member for Bonavista North. Yes, Mr. Speaker, and thank you ~~r. Premie.r. NO, I think that illustrates the point. I think we have an emergency. The first news report that I have hea.rd on this indicated that when ~~e negotiations broke off last December there was a conciliation board asked for and that was refused and something has happened ill the meantime.

And ~'lere seems to be a long period of time qcne by and ve.ry few issues, some very minor issues and it looks to me that there seems to be a need in the government for somebody to monitor - ~~. W. MARSHM.L: ~R. SPEAKER: A point of orde.r, Mr. S!f&aker. A 90int of order has been raised. !he hon. President of the council. MR. W. ~.ARSHALL: I regret to have to rise on a point of order to the hen. member but the Question Period is for asking questions, Mr. Speaker, and the hon. gentleman seems to be getting into the area of a speech or a commentary on the question itself. MR. s. NEARY: TO that point of order, ~!r.

Speaker. ~R. SPEAKER: To the ;?Oint of order, the hon. member for LaPoile. 1-'.R.. 5. 'lEARY: 'ly hon. colleague, Sir, is only :allowing ~'le procedure that they follow in the House of commons in Ottawa and that is that he is allowed to give a little background before asking the question and that has been generally accepted in this House too, Your Honour. So I •o10ul.d suggest that my hon. friend is in order and he is just giving a little

preamble to his' question. MR. L. STL"U.ING: ~·!R. SPEAKER: ~. L • STIRLING : On that point of order, ~r. Speaker . Hon. member. The Premier asked me a c:uestion and I ·.~as trying to give the information of why I had to ask the question . That is all I was trJing to give as a ?reamble and then I was croina to ask ~,e question. 885

.:uly 27, 1979 Tape ~To. 354 !)W - 2 :·IR. S. ~RY: Then the ~on. Government House Leader gets snarky. :IR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : On the point of order the Standing Orders are very clear. Standing Order 3l(c), "In putting any oral. questions, no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except so far as may be necessary to explain the same. " ~~d the same applies in an answer. I will allow ~~e hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirlinql to ask a question if he wishes to ask a question. SOME RO~T. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you very lllUch , Mr. Speaker.

The question that I have to ask is who is responsible for making sure that this kind of thing,which on the surface appears to be ~or7 does not develop into a disaster 1 is it the responsibility of ~'le Departlllent of Realth or the responsibility of •-tanpoweri" ~!R. SPF.AXER: I am sorry I did not hear who you were directing your question to. MR. L. STIFLING: ~R. SPEAXER: ~~~IER ?ECKFORO: I was answering the ?remier's question. ·!'!le hon. the Premier. Well, ~r.

Speaker, we have changed the whole format of Question Period. ~e dispute is between the canadian ~ed Cross mainland office and their employees, not the nurses as represented by NAPE; ~o I imagine the Department of Labour and l·!anpower is also involved here. But I am getting t!le 886

July Z7, 1979 Tape :-lo. JSS NM - l ?RENIER PECKFORO: information now for the hon. member. And in this particular case,as it relates to health and so on, the Department of Ffealth obviously would be monitoring the situation to ensure not that the labour dispute would have to follow the normal course of events under the legislation, etc., that is in place and any assistance that Labour and Manpower can be under the legislation and of course both sides, the employer and the employee can proceed down that avenue, down that road.

But as it relates to health, and the welfare of our people, because of the strike a.nci perhaps the shortage of blood to the various institutions, then the Department of Fealth would be monitoring that situation very carefully. And I will have an up to date report as it relates to that. so number one , it is between the canadian Red Cross ~inland office and their employees and not the nurses who are represented by NAPE, and Labour and Manpower then would get involved as it related ~o the question of the dispute, not in relation to the health of people or whether there was a supply.

As far as the supply of blood is concerned ~hen the Department of Health would enter into the picture. The Department of Health are now being contacted and :..~e will provide the hen. member •<iith the report on that momentarily. :1R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. member for Eagle River. :1R. E. HISCOCK: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the Department of Health have any emergency s~ategy with reqard to the supply of Qlood, particularly the Health Science Complex which is not now having any elective operations. MR. SPEAKER: ?PEMIER PECKFORD: The hen. the Premier. All I can say, Mr.

Speaker, is I would assume that the Department of Health has emergency measures in place, i£ and when circumstances like this arise and I will get ~ore about that now soon. aut one would assume that the Department of Health, being involved in this for as many years as it has, I would be very surprised i£ they ·..rere not fully up to date on this and had meas,Jies in place to get 887

.rulr 27 , 1979 Tape No . 355 PRE.'IIER PEC!<FORD: additiona~ blood so that all necess~ surgery could be performed naturally and ordinarily as if nothing was happ!!ni.ng and the elective surgery, obviously, would ha.ve to -.it until the strike was over. MR. SPEAKER (Simllls): Mcuatains. MR. '111\.RREN : The hen. ·Diember for Tornqat Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to direc:t a question to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. li. Carter) that I directed last week.

Does his department intend l:o pay the fishermen in Nain, Maldtovik, and so on a.lonq the Labrador Coas~ in the ~crnqat district in particular where his dep~t is operating two fish plants, does his depar1;mlmt plan to pay the fishez:men more than $1. SO per ~ for salmon a.s is being paid now? The hon. Minister of Fisheries. ~ - 2 MR. SPEAKER : ;-m. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the matter of the price being paid to fishennen in that area for char and salmon is now under review 888

.J'uly 27' 1979 '!'ape 356 ?K - l ~. w. carter: by ~~e department, but I should point out that the price being paid now is,in fact.less than that being paid fishe:cnen on the southern part of Labrador.

The cost,of course, of collecting the salmon is much higher. we are operating five very expensive collectors in the area costing government anywhere from $300 to $800 per day~ and for that reason I presume the price being paid is a little less. aut I have asked the people in the Department of ~isheries to take a look at it and see if it is possible to increase the price a little more than is being paid now, maybe not as MUCh as the southern part of the Coast)Jut certainly more than is being paid presently. MR. WARM:N: A supplementary. MR. SPEAlCER (SIMMS): A supplementary, the hon. member for Torngat. MR.

WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, at least I have an answer from the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. w. carter). It is satisfactory at this time. aut a supplement probably to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and ~orthern Development (Mr. Goudie).

Seeing that the government operates five- retail stores in the same district, and the cost of fishina ~ear that is supplied by these stores and sold to the fishermen is close to 1:he highest in the Province, will the department take into consideration if there is no increase in the price of salmon paid by the Department of Fisheries, will the Department of Rural Development cake into consideration the cost of the fishing gear and probably give the fishermen in my district a discount on the gear that they are purchasing from the store, which is a 30 per cent markup I understand? :-!R. SPEAKER: The hen.

Minister of Rural, Agricultural and ~orthern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In reply to the hen. member's question I ~m not sure of the percentage of ~kup on any particular given item sold in the Labrador Services Division stores on the Coast of Labrador. but certainly it is a suggestion worth looking into. I understand that there is also a gear programme, I believe, in the Department of Fisheries which may assist fishermen as 'Nell. although if one is already equipped 889

J u~y _ 7 , 1979 ~ap e 356 ?!< - 2 )1%'. Goudie: with gear then I do not suppose there is any need for assistatlce under the gear subsidy programme. !iowever, we can have a look at it, if the situation bec0111es in such a state that fishez:men are suf£erins in the event that they do have to pQ.rehase new gear and prices are high, that kind of thing. Sut I would like to suggest that it is not the policy of our department or the retail stores on the Coast tO add on any percentage of markUp which will adversely aff~t the lifestyles of coastal people.

As a matter of fact ... the record that the stores have operated under for the past number of yea:rs has been that government has SUbsidized to a great deqree the cost o.f supplies and provisiOli.S and so on to coastal comrmmities and on the North coast of !.abrader. MR. SPEJUa:R (SIMMS): The hon. !llelllber for Eagle River. MR. HISCOO:: I would like to direct my qaestion to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. windsor) or the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr •. Brett).

With ra<]ard to the const..--uction of the airstrip , the first phase of water and sewerage at cartWright, as well as construction of some roads, 850

July 27, 1979 Tape No. 357 ~1R. HISCOCX: could the minister, either one of the ministers, give a date when this is going to take place? ~IR. SP'E:AKE-"1. (Simms): The hen. Xinister of Municipal .U:fa.irs and Housing. ~- N. liiNDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I do not know. The Minister of Transportation may be able to give a more accurate date. The proposal i~of course.that the two projects will be done jointly, as the hon. ~ember has already discussed with me privately. It makes sense.in an isolated area such as Cartwright, to get whatever work can be done done while you have a contractor there with the necessary equipment.

This is why both projec't.s were proposed for this year and it is proposed that the two contracts be done basically as one. I do not know if the ~ster of Transportation (Mr. Brett) can give more details of when tenders can be called or awarded or whatever. I am no'!: sure at the moment but we will undertake to get it. ~- HISCOCK: ~- SPEAKER: Eagle River. ~1R. HISCOCK: A supplementary question. A supplementary, the hen. member for With regard to that I am quite aware and the people down on the Coast are also quite aware that the logic of having the two contracts go ahead is quite logical.

But in the meantime.because of the short shipping season and construction season.the cost of bringing material in.and with the freeze-up of bringing it out ind going out,where the freeze is on now.with not having the road surveyed, the people in that part of the district would like a definite date, whether one week, two weeks, three weeks, the Fall. c ould we be given a little bit more definite answer on that? ~- ~~EAKER: and Housing. ~·! R. WINDSOR : t o get that . :·IR. SPE.r..KER: The hen. Minister of Municipal Affa~rs Yes, Mr. Speaker, we 'N"ill '.lndertake The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. 89j_ NM - 1

.July :7 , 1979 Tape No. 357 Mr. Speaker, I have ~ question for the ~on. Minis~er of ~unicipal dffairs and Housing. Could the han. minister tell ~~s House if SRINEX has been allotted 150 housing units in Goose Say? ! understand there has been ongoing meetings and so on with !!RINEX and ~ewfoundland and Labrador aousing concerning housing units in Goose aay. Could the hen. minister tell us if there are some housing units allotted to BRINEX to begin in September? ~- SPEAZER (Simms l : Affairs and Housing. ~. WINDSOR: The hon. Minister of Municipal Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that ~"lere is.

I will have to check on that one as well. It is possible,if BRINEX have come up, there are a number of units there. I do not know that we have 150 units available at the moment that we would allocate. If we had a large number of units at our disposal and BRINEX wanted a large number we would certainly consider it but not at the de~iment of the people of theGocse Bay area. Certainly,if there was a great demand for them then we would not freeze that .!llallY- But I will check. ~- WJUmEN: c-!R. SPEAKER: Tcrngat Mountains. MR. Wl'.RREN: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hen. member for Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I think the last semblance of the minister's comments is worth noting, 'as long as Lt does not affect the residents of Goose Bay: It is 892 NM - 2

July 21,1979 Tape Ho. 358 AH-1 very important because I understar.d at the 9resent time there are people in Goose Bay, residents of Goose Bay waiting for housing and they have been wai tine; two and three weeks for housing. So I a111 glad that the minister did say that in the hon. Rouse. !o!R. SPEAICER: (SIMMS) The hen. minister. MR. N. WINDSOR: If I would just respond vary clearly. I havehad that situation checked into recently because ! had been told that there were a lot of units there that were available and that people were asking for them and they could not get into them.

I have had that checked out and it is not accurate. There are a number of units available but they are being repaired, painted and renovated or whatever and they are movinq vary, very quickly. There is no qreat backloq, as . I understand it from our office in Goose Bay. ~R. SPEJUCER: Baie Verts-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: The hen. member for Mr. Speaker, now that ~~e Minister of Mines and Energy is here I have a question for him.

The minister in the Rouse a few days ago eold us that the recent submission eo the Public Otilities Board by Hydro,that the Newfoundland Hydro says this in their submission, "'Does not reflect recent OPF.C increases in the price of oil." Now, in view of the fact that the Canadian level, I think, was eo have raised one dollar a barrel in July and is due to go up another dollar a barrel in January, could the minister tell the House what effect that will have on the submission, this latest submission by Hydrc: to the Public Utilities Board and can we expect Hydro to be goinq back to the PUB again, say in January or February to reflect those latest increases in the rise of Canadian energy to the world levels? ~•P. .

SPEliJCE:!t: ~ines and Energy. ~. BARRY: The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I believe :tansard .,ill show that I answered that question in the course of answering a ?revious ~uestion on an earlier occasion. and ~,at is that Hydro has 893

July 27' 1979 Tape No. 358 AH-2 :-:P.. BARRY: talc:en into account the existing federal policy which is to have this phased in increase in oil prices, one dollar of whic:h ci!llle in July and anot.,.er dollar whic:h will be in the January, as the ~~~ember opposite has mentioned, and this is already reflected in the rates whl:c:h !!ydro is requesting in their application for the Public Otilities Soard. ~m. RIDEOUT: A supplementary. ~~:(Simms) MR. IUDEOtl'l': A supplementary. The hon. member. I wonder, !'lr.

Speaker, could the minister tall the House what the dollar a barrel increase would transulate to in te:r:ms of, say, lcilcwatt hours to the consumer so that we might have some idea what the increase that we lcnow is coming in January will do to the consumer price of electricity in the Province? ~R. SPE.l'.lC:En: ( S illlns l ~R. BARRY: The hon. minister. Mr.

Spealc:er, I would have to ,c:heclt the exact figure • The one dollar in itself \ol'il.l. not be a significant amount but added to the fact that this is a reqular phased in increase. it does have a significant impact uporu the price to the consumer over tillle • 894

July 27, 1979 'l'~ 359 r.:c- 1 And t:e present pollcy of the Ga..,.:cuMnt of CanAda..u wu established by the previous ~tra.tion. is that the pric:a of oil in ~dol., wlli.cb. is presently ngw beinq subsidized. by 90""'%NIIIInt p&-r-t.s, will ~e ta the wor.ld pric:a at the rate of $l. 00 evary so JUDY manttls.

We da not yet Jcnow whether this pollcy will be d:lan98d by the present fade.raJ. ga~t, but we da lcnow th&t i£ ~ J;Jrasent policy relll&ina in effect there will ocntinu. to be m inc:reue in the price of oil and.,tbarafoz:e, this will be reflected in a continuinq rise in the pric:a of e.lectric:al. ~. a. phenoJarlOn, Mr. Speaiter, which is oc=rinq ev.ryvl1ara in the world. Mr. Spallker, a. sq~pla.anta.ry. !Ut. SPEAKER: (S.i.Jaml B&ia Veru - wtU. ta B&y. HR.. RXDEOO'r: A. suppl...nta.ry, the hDn. the -=bar for Mr.

Speaker, could the llli.nis tar tell the !J.cuse wbathar there h.u been any onqoinq ciiacussiens between h.is department and the ~t of Can&d.i. with & vi- to aacal&tinq mare :oapicily tcwa.rcis the wor.ld anarqy p.ric:a, the OPI!lC pric:a' I think there is so- ciiaCNBsion on the fadara.l scene that the present qove~t would like to sea t:ha~; h&ppening more quickly than in it h&s been in the past. Could the minister tell the Rouse whether than h.u been any ocnsulta.tion between ltim and h.is fadaral. colleaques on that particular m.atter? MR. SP~ The h.on. the Minister of !o!ines and Enerqy. MR. BARJilt: No, Mr.

Speaker. MR. NEARl!: Mr. Spe&Jter. MR. SPEAKER: 'l'he llon. the 111811Lber for LaPoile. MR. l!IEARX: Mr. Speaker, MY question is for the h.on. the Premier, Sir. Would the h.on. gentlem&n cell the House, when the ch.anqe-o..,.r of ownership of E.P.A. took place.back on November 16th of laa1;. year. if that transfer of ownership had to ~e approved by the Newfoundland Government because the Newfoundland Govarnment held & ctlattel martqage on the &ircraft because a£ maney outatanciinq, ~6 million, owinq to the Province - i£ that transfer of ownership had to be approved by the Newfoundland Government? 895

July :n, 1379 Tape 359 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECCFORO: I a111. not sura what approval procedure had. to be gone throuql:l. I relllalllber about it vaquely, myself, whan it c- up. I do ngt know if there was any speci.fic approval, O:rder-i.n-Counc:i.l by Cabinet had t.o .be isaU~Bci or not, but I will gat the in!ozmation for the hem. IIIUibar for l'lond&y. MR.~: MR. SPEAKER: for t..l'oile. A supple•ntary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the non. the mami:Jer Would the hon. gentleman a.lso get 1118 tha infoz:mation on the sale of a Boeing 737 jet !llilde by E.l' .A. shortly before the ~fer of ownarship whereby a profi.t of over ~3 million was raaliz.ed. by E.l' • .il.. that was paid out t.o the sharailolders as a di.v:idand? Should not the profit of the sale of the Boeing 737 h.ave qone t.o the Public 'rreasury to reti.ra the $6 million debt to the .,eople of thi.s Province:? MR. SPEAKER: 'l:he hon. the Premier. Oh, my gracious 11111, Mr. Speak.ar, I do not knew if I can gat that infoz:mation.

I guess the han. !lllllllber should either write or c:al.l t."'.e President of the company and see if he can get the infoDt&tion that way. It is a company transaction, the purclluing of a 'plane. MR. NEARY: No, the government held a chattel mortgage on (inaudible) . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PR£M.IER PEC~ORC: Mr. Speak.er, I would like to COII'Illete lll'f ans-r wit.'lout being interrupted.

Now, you know, the agreement for financing or guarantees cetwaen the Govemment of Newfoundland and a company is one thing - and I do not know whether in that kind of an agreement t."lere is a clause which says, 'And if you sell or buy, or purchase or sell something and make so mucll li'Dney, so IDUch of that has to coma back against that guarantee. ' I do :10t think there is , I think a company has the fle:ldbili ty after a transaction is made for financi.al assistance, to go a.Cout its business and if it ~~~eets the terms and conditions of the financial arrangement t.~at was entered into .between the government and the ccmpany, then the 896

___ ..J_ -- ---- July 27, 1979 Tape 359 EC - 3 i'.1tEMIEll ll'ECDORD: <JO"I'!Z%!llleQt li;aa no a¢ion aqa.iu~ ttl• ~1 fo~ ,..C.01111 purc;Aaus whi.~ da .J~Ct. fall. Ubdar . tDII!i te:nlll &ltd condi. .ti®s of that fihanci&l urm~nt. Allll if '::hat is traa, what. I aa sayiag, thiiJl ~ wu ~uat a noaal transaetionthat the c.~.imy entered iD,to. Whe1:1lu it is leqal or UleqaJ. 897

,.,. ~·. 197'.? Tape ~lo. 360 ?!I.E~IER ?EC:<FO!'!D: or proper or improper is not for me to comment upon. It is a transaction made by a company called Eastern Provincial Airways Limited who have head offices in Gander so I do not know whether it is proper for me tn undertake to get ~~at kind of information I would ha~ to check it ou~. I do not know if it is or not. ~tR. SP~R: (SL'!MS) Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS 9Y STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES ~. SPEruCER: The hon. Minister of l"inance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, pursuant t:o

section 51 of the E'inancial Administration ll.ct . I would like to table dettails of Guaranteed Loans paid or in part since the last sitting of the Ho~se. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS E'OR WHIC! ~OTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. ~. G. OT'l'ENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, I will table-the answer in reply to a question asked by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. ~eary) Order Paper of July 25th. , I believe, and the question was_. aave any representations been made in the past three years by the ~nister or his department to the !'ederal authorities requesting changes to present laws concerning ~~e use and distribution of marijuana?

In answer to the question, let me say to the best of my knowledge there have been no such representations during ~~e past ~~ree y,~ars, certainly in written form. ~ow,whe~,er there orere oral representations:obviously I oa not know an~ really would have no appropriate •.vay of knowing. But I am not aware of any written representations ·ri~~i~ the past t.,ree years. ~1R. SPE~R: ~he hon. the Premier. ?REHIER ?EC:-::FORD : ~r.

S;>eaker, if I am allowed I •.o10uld like ~o give some information to t~e House relative to the questions asked in ~~estion Period on the Canadian ~ed C~oss situation. ~he strike is one . ..,hich - t.~e ~e;,stion i s not one of supply of blood so much as cis~=ibution of the blood , ~specially in the St. John's area. 898

.:uly ~ .. -' I 1979 Tape NO. 360 DW - 2 The Department of Heal~~ is daily in touch wi~~ ~~e Canadian ~ed Cross and they are monitoring the situation. If it ~ecomes necessary for transportation of blood to ~ave to take ;llace, the Department of Health has in !'lae9 a 3YStemwhereby they can get the blood to the various institutions so that there will be no emergency, the supply will be there. There is an advance,one week supply available at the present moment. The cot-:age hospitals around the Province have their own syst!em of blood supply so there is no problem there.

The main problem is di&tribu- tion within the urban centres and there is a transportation plan in place to handle that if and when it is necessary so to do. I think that provides the information that the hon. members wanted. PRESEN'l'r.i'G PETITIONS ~~R. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) The hon. member for Eagle ~iver. ~lR. E • HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to pregent a petition on behalf of the people of the communities of Mary's Harbour, Lodge Say, Fox Harllo114, 3attle Harbour, Cape Charles, White Point, Camp Islands, carrels Cove, Indian Cove, and Mattis Cove. Mr.

Speaker, there are 140-odd people who ~ave signed this ~etition. The prayer of this petition is that the airstrip at Mary~s Harbour be constructed at the earliest possible moment. Because of the federal freeze this petition has been - the tender ~as been called and let and the company has been notified but because of the freeze this airstrip is now frozen like all the other projects that are unde: ~view. I would like to point out in ?articular,because of the short fishing season and construction season i!'l 899

July 27, 1979 Tape 361 E'K - 1 :-tr. !!isa:ock: Labrador tha~ it may be wise to freeze certain things in urban areas, rn Labrador,! would like for the ministers to impress upon their counterparts in Ottawa ~~at in bringing the supplies in for the construction season, it has to be before the freeze up or they will have to bring them out and then bring them in again in the Spring. The reason for the freeze in the first place is to save money, and I all' afraid and the people in the district express the same fear, that if it is approved ~~is ysar that ~~e season will be so short that nothing will:basically,be done.

So I ask the ministers to make the appropriate acknowledgement to Mr. Crosbie, the Minister of Finance, and also Mr. Jim McGrath the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. ~. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition so ably presented by my colleague, Sir, the member for Sagle River (Mr. Hiscock) . Is that the first petition, by the way? !1R. IITSCOCK: Yes. MR. NEARY: That is the hen. gentleman's first petition, Sir. I have a feeling that it will not be his last.

Because that part of Newfoundland,as far as I am concerned, is the most neglected part of the Province, that part of Labrador that the hen. gentleman just presented a petition on on behalf of his constituents in the Mary's 3:arbour area. And that part of Labrador - Northern Labrador gets all kinds of assistance from the Government of canada , because they have a special agreement with the Government of canada,to take care of the needs of the native population. But down in Southern Labrador, Sir-': do not lmow if hen. gentlemen have had the opportunity to travel through Southern Labrador.

I have gone through several times myself and I never cease to be amazed at the patience of the people in that area, it is the most neglected part of Newfoundland. And now we have that glorious and gallant Minis~er of Finance for the Government of Canada (Mr. Crosbie) who once used to be in this House,who turned out to be the ~est expensive minister that we have ever had in the whole

.Jul y '2. 7 , 1979 Tape 361 P!< - 2 )!%'. Neary: history of Newfoundland. now up in Ottawa putting ~~e gears eo ehe people of Southern Labrador, the hon. John c. Crosbie. ~d I would like eo say to lilY friend ~'lat he has high hopes that this administration here in ehe Province will be able to persuade old bully boy to change his mind before the freeze up takes place in Southern Labrador.

But,certainly,I agree with the hon. gentleman that the Premier, who is also Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, should put ehe pressure on the Government of Canada to lift the freeze as far as Southern Labrador is concerned, because i£ they do not lift the freeze now then Southern Labrador is going to be froze up, they will not be able to get the materi~ and ehe supplies in that are necessary to construct that airstrip. It is a ~ery valid request, Sir, it is a reasonable request_, and I hope that it will not be like 50me of the other petitions presented in this hon. House_, just fall on deaf ears.

Perhaps it might be ~ery worthwhile if the hon. gentleman who .created·, who was responsible for creating that district before the !iou~e ~s dissolved and the election ~s called would care to have a few words on it. And maybe the press will pick it up and the word will go cut to hard-nosed Crosbie who believes in just a balance sheet rather than looking at things in a humanitarian ~y. Perhaps ehe hen. gentleman might care eo have a few words in support of this petition and maybe the hen. Mr . Crosbie will get ehe message up there in Ottawa. MR. SPEAICER (SIMMS): ?REMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, just a couple of words on it. Primarily because of my association with the area that the hen. members represent, especially the area concerned on the petition, Mary's !iarbcur, Battle Harbour, Lodge Bay, Cape Charles, and Fox Harbour area which I am very familiar with 1 ~ravelled their in boat many cimes~ ! got lost there one eime, as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, on a eNenty-seven foot skiff out of Mary's !iarbour, an eight horsepower- steward. we got lost there for a couple of days in the fog, shot a

.Jul!· _7, i 979 !'ape 361 PIC - 3 PrE!l!Li.er Peckford: !ew birds and jiqqecl. a few 'fish and ha.d a qreat time. BUt the need is unquestionable. You know, I uncierstand that knowinq the area like I cio1 and I can understand the reason why the petiton was cirCUlated and now presented in the !louse. ~d I would like to as·s~ tlle hon. melllber that in talks that I will have with the Minister of Finance {Mr. Crosbie) in Otta'ola · in the next !ew days, •.men I talk to him, whic:h I will, I sh;lll mention that .,articular projeet,. it is one of fairly hiqh priority as it relates to j;hat part of the coast,: · Md the !llelllber for LaPoile (Mr. ~eary) is really

.:ul~· 27, 1979 Tape ~o. 362 so - l ?RE:!UER »::ClCFORO: co=ect that that aJ:ea is sort of a t:ransition :~:one. You aJ:e not into the ~orthern part and you aJ:e out of the Strait part and it is just that that blob is the twilight .:one that a lot of people can iqnore. 3ut it is beautiful country, beautiful people and t.hey work bard and they deserve better service. SONE liON. lit.'!BZRS : Hear, heal:. ORDERS OF THE DAY :m. SPE.l'.KE.R(Simms) : Order 2, Collllli ttee of Supply. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, :o~r. Speaker left the C.'la.ir. :.m.

CHAIRMAN (Butt): :1R. S • NEAR:!-: Order, please! Shall 302-0l, carry? The hen. the mem.ber fer Lal'oile. Yesterday, Sir, when we were discussing the Prl!lllier's salary, we had a. very worthwhile discussion indeed. ! must say that two hours of tile House yesterday afternoon - I de not think ! ever enjoyed ehe House a.s much as I did yesterday afternacn during the two hour period from 4:00 o'clock until 6:00. And I de net believe, Sir, at least in my experience in this hen. !icuse in the past seventeen years, I beleive I have get about twenty sessions Wider "JJ.Y belt, that I ever saw a.

Premier on h.is feet as much as the hen. gentleman. And it was quite a hct day, wazm day, everybody was sweating but the hon. gentleman did manage to react to some of the remarks made by my colleagues on this side and gave us some pretty straightforward and frank answers and opinions. And nobody in this ~ouse, Sir, appreciates ~'la.t as much as I do • • o.N :iON. ME:l·mER: :1R. S. ~ARY : aear, hear. And .,..hen I went home last :light, "lr. Chairlnan, :-eflecting back on tile House yesterday afternoon .

I could net help, Sir, but developing in my ~nd a sort of respect and admiration for the hon. gentleman who occuppies the chair of Premier at ~~e present ~e. 30~.4.E ~ON. :·!E!1BERS : ~ear, hear ..

_;.._ .:uly 27, 1979 Tape ~o. 362 so - 2 ~-!R. S. lii:.~Y: And I said, Mr. Chairman, in my mind wilen I wa.s sitting around last evening, I said eo myself, if the hon. gentleman keeps it up, if the non.

Premier keeps up, at least, t.'le appearance of honesty and integrity wilicil, as !ar as I am concerned, is t.'le =st impo:tant asset for a Premier or a member of eilis aouse, :Unisters and so forth, if he keeps it up, if the hon. gentleman !las t:.'le will and the strenqth UJ keep i.t up !:hen, :>i.r, his name ;.rill be engraved i.n bronze in eilis ?rovince, not in lead like some of klis ?redecessors, will be engraved in bronze as one of the IIICSt outstand.inq and !:letter Premiers that we have ever had in t:.'ti.s Provinc:e. SOl£ iiON. Z£MBERS : Hear, hear. AN dON. M£.-'lBER: ( Inaudi.ble) CJ.ellow. ~1R.

S • MEARY: And so, Sir, SOl-!E <iON. :-!EMBERS : Oil, o.i~! :1«. S. NEARY: l-Ie buts, no ifs, ands or buts, !U:. Chairman. The problem is, of course, the hon. gentleman will find it ver1 difficult to keep it up. A;o muc.'l as e.'le hen. gentleman '"'ould like to keep people honest and maintaill inteqri:y, and I nave nc doubt at all but tile tlon. gentleman is sincere in that regard, ~t is going eo be a very difficult: eask indeed and ;1e is going to need tile co-operation and t:.'le help of every member of t:.'lis J:iouse.

And I want to assure ehe hon. gentleman that he will get my co-operation and my help in erying to keep the aciministration half honest. That: i.s a problem. You have got to nave eyes sometimes in e.'le bac~ ~f your head. And t:.'l.e hen. gentleman will probably realize that over ::.he past several years that I have eried desparateJ.y in this House 1:0 :<eep e.'le administration honest by exposing wilat I considered to be fraud, ·.-rongdoing, mismanagement .1nd t:.."le like, sometimes, Sir, much to my own detriment but I have done i~. r have done my job here on t:..'le floor of t:..'le aouse.

.July 27, 1979 Tape ~o. J63 sometimes ! ran up against a stone wall. Many times ! ran up against a stone wall. ~ny times r was criticized inside and outside of this House by both memeers and the media '>~'no called me anything but a gentleman. ! was an unpatriotic Newfoundlander. r remember, and any members who were in the Bouse at the time will remeiiiDer, back in 1975 when ! was sitting down there as a lonely independent ! raised the matter of the Marystown Shipyards at that time and Bansard, if non. gentlemen ~nt to research aansard t!ley can find it.

But here is a clipping from the newspaper, "Neary charges mismanagement at the shipyard." And at that time r tabled a letter in this hon. Bouse from a former manager of the shipyard, )tr.

Millan, who got sort of the heave ho, who left under duress, left the shipyard under pressure, under mysterious circumstances, ! tabled a letter that he had '>l'ritten to the minister who was responsible for the shipyard, telling the minister - if the hen. gentleman will just forgive me, ! am trying to get a message across to the hen. the Premier there, if the hen. gentleman will just forgive me for a moment - I tabled a letter where Mr.

Millan, a former manager of the shipyard stated, and it is in this news item, that the procedures used at the shipyard Ecr estimating were incorrect, were improper, and that the shipyard was deliberately underestimating to get the contracts knowing that the government would pick up any deficit. That was back in 1975, Sir. The bully boy who is now up in Ottawa, Minister of Finance (Mr. J. Crosbie), will sink canada the same as he sank this Province, he ·N.ill do the same thing up there.

Be will mismanage the affairs of the nation the same as he mismanaged the Fishermen's Gear Replacement Programme, the same as he mismanaged _ the ~inerboard ~ill, and the same as he - :1R. :·IARSHAU.: :1R. CHAI:R.'IAN (Butt): ?resident of the Council. On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of order, the hon. ~~e sns NM - l

J\U.y 27, 1979 Tape No. 363 We are now engaged in considering Eeading 302-01 which is the Premier's Office salary. While the hon. gentleman's comments a~ay be of some interest, he is into the Marystown Shipyard and he is now into extraneous matters with respect to his perception of the ~nister of Finance in Ottawa (Mr. Crosbie), and I would suggest to Your Honour that the hon. member is not being relevant to the heading now being considered by the Committee. ~IR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chainlan, the hon. gen tlea~an who just raised that so-called point of order knows full well, Sir, that when you are debating the Premier's salary that that is a very wide- ranging debate, very wide-ranging. It is as wide-ranging, as a matter of fact,as the Throne Speech or the Budget Speech when you .... are on the Premier' s salary, where '"e are getting philosophy and policy and I am in the process of giving the hon. gentle:nan an example of the kind of honesty that I would like to see in his administration. So I would submit, Sir, there is no point of order.

The hem. gentleman may not like what I am saying but I '"auld submit to Your Honour that I am completely in order. N'M - 2 )o!R. CHAL~: The hon. :nember for La.Poile (Mr. ~eary), your remarks are irrelvant. These kindsvf remarks can be made to the Minister of Industrial Development. MR. ~ARY: My remarks are what?

Irrelevant to 302-01. )o!R. ~Y: What I am leading ~p to, Sir, and the hon. the Premier is listening to what I am saying there_. is the difficulty that we have had in getting the :nessage through to the administration. .;nd I am giving a specific example and I will give others '"hen :!: get an opportunity, I have to leave at 11:30, I have a domestic problem to =~~e care of, but before I go I hope I can get the :nessage through to the hon. gentleman because after heaping great praJ.se on the hon. gentleman there a few moments ago.! ·o~ould like

; uy27 , l97 9 Tape No. 363 Molt. ~Y: to point out to the hon. gentleman, Mr. Chai.z:man, ~t he aan make a name for himself by pu~tinq the distance ;between himse .lf and Frank D. Moores, by reviewinc; the salmon rivers ,, by reviewing Mr. Nutbeem, by reviewinc; the Action Group, by reviev,i.nq the Atlantic: Place leasinc; agreement, by tryinq to c;et a better deal, and by ta:kinc; a loolt at t:ne lodc;es o.n t:ne Salmon Ri'Ver and Adl.atok. These are all m! - 3

July :Z7, 1'?79 Tape No. 364 AH-1 ~!?. )lEARY: V@ry good, very good, and I commend ~~e Premier, I conqraculate him. All very good. But if you put t.~em all together th@y will probably involve a substantial a1110unt of money, of =ilayers' :ncney. You are probably talking about a few million. But, Sir, what I am saying here is that you cannot, t.~e hon. <;rentleman cannot just say, »ell we ar@ going to look at ~~@ !l!inor thin<;rs, we are <;roing to look at: the small things and not look at t.~e lar<;rer things. '!'hat · is the point I am making, Sir.

And while I conqratulate the non. gentle~an I will be very disappointed indeed, very disappointed if ~~e hon. gentleman does not take a look at the big things . like the mismanag-ent and the scandals involved in Labrador Linerboard where we saw,when the government took over Labrador · i.Inerl:icard, we saw a cancellation of a marketing agre-ent with Alfred H~inzel in Europe known throughout ~~e world, a company and an individual known in every part of the worl.:! for his experience in marketing paper products, who had <an agreeD'.ent, a sign@d agree~ent with ta.brador Linerboard to market the product of the mill at Stephenville.

That agreement , Mr. Chairman, was cancell@d , it was cancelled, ~e qovernment had to buy its way out of it. It cost the taxpayers one quarter of a million dollars to get out of that agreement and then, !'!r.

Chaizman, this fly-by-night, ~~is t:wO-bi t outfit down in Massachusetts, a company incorporated under the Companies Act of Massachusetts, ·..ras given an agreement in the same w@ek the contract was cancelled with this experienced firm in Europe, given to a two-bit outfit that never had any experience in marketing linerboard, given to them. '!'heir acc:Oilnts ·could not be audited because they are South of the border and then the - ~~ CHAIRM11N: (Butt) gentleman's time ~as expired. ?R£MIER ?ECXFORD: Order, please! The hen. The hen. the Premier. !-!r.

Chai=an, I would just like to ?rovide some additional information to the co~etee relaeive to some of the questions that were asked on dealing with the Premier's

J'uly 27 , 1979 'l'ape !lo. 364 AH-2 A.f!ai.rs, cabinet secretariat and. so on. office, Interqoverr~ncal A lut. of the information has already been given but there were a couple of questions both by mambers opposite and members of the press dealing with this Governors Name Soard. Governors what? PREMIER ?Ec:FORD: Governors Name Board. There is a $40,000 allocation in the est.ima.tes. This is a hand carved plaque to record tl'le names of all former gover:tors in Uewfoundl.ami to display at Government S:ou.se.

It will be approximately five and one half feet by eight and one hal.£ feet in size and it will be hand carved out off English oak. MR. SIMMONS: Not out of Newfoundland. bark? PREMIER PEC!:FORD: Or of Newfoundland pine , very little of which is left. The total cost is ~,e S40,000 as indicated in the estimates. I thought I would give members that information. It is a plaque to record all the names of all the qove:rnors of Newfoundland and. it ·•as initiated by the present Lieutenant-Governor and. will be, undoubtedly, a worthwhile asset to Government House.

The other point is ! want to table the public proposal document which nas never been tabled in the House,relative to space. You could get it for een bucks downstairs. of course, ~~se people who wanted to tender on space. It was based on this proposal call that the Crosbie qrouo were accepted as giving the best proposal. I want to table that now because I think it should be tabled in t.he House. And on Monday I will make a further statement on it. I have not had a chance this morning to do it.

I have people working on it now so I will have a statement on that space; relative to that proposal call on :·tonday. 3ut I think some of the members might like to take a look at that proposal call itself that was there and the requirements and so on because ;;.erhaps :nembers have not seen it before. '!'hat is the only information that I wanted to provide at this time. I thank the hen. member for taPoile (Mr.~earyl

July 27,1979 Ta!)e llo . 364 AH-3 for his comznents and I hope ~the and I can see eye to eye on these thinc;s,as we do now, three or £our years freilD now and I am sun we can. ~. CHAIRMAN: CB.utt) The h.on. member for LaPoile. lOt. NEARY: on with the trend. Mr. Chai:man, I want to car:y I thank the non. c;entleman !or sayinc; a few words so that I could have another ten minutes because I am dead serious about this Labrador I.i.nerboard thinq and the scandals that 9'10

• JW.y 27, 1979 Tape 365 EC- l were involved in. No, !:here is a fact, lir. C.~, -.;."lere is a fact that the newsmen sholll.ci. take note of~ the fact th.&t the contract with iie:in%el. to maz:ket liner:boa:d. w .. c:.ancallaci.,. ':lie gova%Dmmlt had. to buy its way out of it, ~ey anci.ed up with th.is !:WO-bit inexperienced outfit that nabociy aver h.eud of dclwn in Maaa&Ch.u.etts and I think the news -ci.ia.in pa:Uc:ular, mel. -lllbus of th.ia House, shcuJ.ci. be ukinq the question, Why? And nov ci.id they lllallaqe the affairs of urkatinq lineriloard when they haci. the exclusive contract?

Now, that is a fact. I did not liiAUi it up. I de not l!.a- to pmdu.ca daC1mmltat:ion. Mr. !toares - the naWBII1en go out and say, 'Mr. Neary did. not produce any doclllll8ntation or any evici.enca.' Mr. Moores answers, a..lld he aces not produce any daC1mmltat:ion or any evidence of anythinq. The 111a11 is in.capaele of tall.inq tha t:uth - be never told. it in l1is life - and yet I have to prociuce the Qacumentat:ion and t11a evidence but he does not. I am not sayinq that he wu the one who did. tru.s, it was Mr. Crosbie who waa responsible for sattinq up this tD~ation&l ronst Pmciuca.

Now. o;attinq back aqain to my questi011 to the Premier. Does the b.on. gantlaiii&D not feel that that one fact alone would justi.fy an inquiry? But ll.ere is fact a.WIIber two: 'l11e shippinq contract w-as also c:.ancelled. And then sa-ral -Ilks went by and JU'. Crcs.bie and his ganq nneqotiated the sh.ippinq contract to brinq the pW.p fro• ~racklr ta Stephenville - nnaqatiatad it with the sama company for more 1110ney. That i.s !;act number twa, Mr. Chai.zmu.

There are two facts alone, two IIL&jor it:ema that cost the taxpayers a siiiAll fortune - justification anouqll for a Royal eo-ission of Inquiry under the Pllblic Inquiries Act - these two i tams alone notwithatanciinq, Mr. Cha.iJ:man, the evici.ence of wmnqdainq and scandal that we nave in frOAt of u.s. And, Mr. Chairman, let - say this too: 'lihen the governmant took over that l..iner:board. mill then -n tree h.arvesters brouqht in by the previous owners d8wn in !lappy Valley, Goose aay, never used. These tree harvesters - let tilat sink in - were never w;ad.

And than all of a sudden somebody gets a big order for 1110re tree nar;resters that were brouqht in and never w;ed. 91:1

W"ul.y 27, 1979 Tape 365 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Olu:cun, look, as far as I a111 concerned, tl1i.s is the biqqest rip-of! and the biqqa•t s~da.l in Canadian history - not only in Newfoundland. history but in Canadian hiatory. And I have to stand. hera year in md. yau out a:1d. beq tl1a ~stratioa. to nave a coaaission of inquiry or send the Auditor General in and all t qat from tl1e na- •ciia. is, 'Oh, ne produced no e'li.danc:e.' We.ll., there are two facts alone t.na.t warrant a ccllllllission of inquiry.

Forqet tl1a wronqd.oinq and. the scandal and tl1e example I h.ava nere in front of •· an invoice and an internal. 11181110 from Stirlinq Intarnatioa.al tlla.t shclws that they put $l2l,OOO in a secret ;account, a secret coaaission, which is a crU. in Canada - a crime aq~t the Criminal COde - put it into the ba.nk account of a COIIIPAnY called Eqret, m offshore company, a dw=y company. And yet the qove:rnmant stonewalls and. refuses to sat up a coDDission of inquiry.

So I say to the hen. the l?:rem:ier, whi.la the thinqs that h.e llu done so far are good - h.e reviewed the freeze on the sa.llllcn rivers in I..Draaor that h.is predecessor brouqht in. Good.! I a111 all for it. He revi-ed the $:00,000 that the h.on. gentleman voted. himself and another !anar Premier ~d all the other qoodi•s - the h.on. qen.tle.man reviewed that. Good! I co~d h.illl for it. The h.on. qantlalll&ll took action on the Action Group. I a111 i&ll for it. We a.Lve !:lean prea.c:ilinq that for the last eighteen 1110nths.

The hen. gentleman took a look at the lea.sinq agreement for Atl..antic Place anci th.a :ton. ~ntlaiiiUID took a look at the Gander lodge and. Adlatok . - incidentally, llow is the sal.lllon r=inc; now? AN liON. MEMBER: Just great.· MR. NEAla": But the h.on. qentl8111all cannot do tilese t:hinqs and let the biq t:hings qo. As good as i&ll these are - and they will mean il savi.Jlq to the taxpayer - tlle non. gantlesaan c~ot let t:he l:lig one qo, the biqqest scandal in Canadian il.is-eory, involved in t.''le operation of i:.abracicr I.ine.rlloard from the tilDe lir.

Crosbie and his qanq took it over up tc the time it closed. That is the one the Premier should take a look at. 91.2

July .. , ' 1979 Tape 366 ?!C - l and I will be awfully disappointed if the hen. gencleman does not do that. Mr. C.'lai:rman, I do not !<now, it is very difficult. in ten ~nuces.to ge~ your message across. I want to run through this Stirling International thing again just in case the new members do not understand what it is all ~ut. And I will run through it briefly and I will summarize it ~'le best way I can.

Look,here is what happened, International Forest ?roducts that had the exclusive marketing right from Labrador Linerboard to market ~~e product they sold - and here is the document to prove it, because there is the order, they sold 1, sao tons and sao tons of Labrador liner.board to International Stirling, a middleman, a broker in San Francisco for shipment to GhanR for S320 a ton -S320 a ton was the price to be paid to Labrador tiner.board. And there is the bank draft to prove that they acted in good faith and they paid the mill S320 a ton. But, Mr.

Chairman, what nobody, but no .body in this Province was told was that - and this came right out of Stirling International's office, and came out by the gentleman that handled ~'le sale, who is not now working for Stirling International, is now working for another ,aper company so he does not care, but '"anted to expose this graft and corruption, here is an internal memo from the Comptroller of Stirling International to somebody in that company bv t~e name of David saying, "Please telegraph today to Sutterfield 3ank in Ramilton, aurmuda.in credit to the account of Egret Company Limited, Account Number 201027095-9 United States funds Sl21,220 or down at the bottom SSS a ton." For what:?

For '"hat:? A straight fraud against the Labrador tinerboard mill. International Forests. by the way.admit~ed that ~~ey own Egret and they nade a public statement through their law firm in New York saying that the money was used as a guarantee againsc shipping. So I ~ent back to my source, and I discovered that shipping '"as never discussed. Shipping '"as not discussed. As a matter 913

July 27, 1979 ~IR. ~Y: Stephenvil~e. '!'ape 366 l?K - 2 of fact, ~~e·company bought the linerboard f.o.b. !s the hen. gentleman aware of that? That it was ~ot for shipping as Mr. Bobbie Kraft and his colleagues, International ?crest Products statedr And, Mr. Chairman, what do ! have to do with it? I know the news will say now, ~el~Neary went through the same example again. :ie had ao ~ew examples. The same one again. The same one, Sir, if this is a pattern in the industry, if this was a pattern followed in marketing Labrador linerboard, if this pattern was followed you are talking about over $30 million.

And I have every reason to believe that the pattern was followed. I have sent enquiries out all over the world. I am not a law enforcement officer, Mr. Chairman - if I was I would have the thing resolved long a ago - I am a member of t:.he fiouse and had to lay aut a prima facie case that I think there was ·~ongdoing, chat I think there was gross mismanagement, that ! think there was skulduggery, that I think there was fraud, and I do not say these things very lightly unless ! can back them up and bring witnesses and evidence.

And yet, Sir,the government up to now, at least, have refused to send in the Auditor General or set up a commission of enquiry. Now if there is no wrongdoing, if the government set up a commission of enquiry then I would be proven to be wrong. ~. CHAIRMAN (BUTT): Order, please! The hon. gentleman's time is u.p .. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER l?ECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, all ! can say in answer to ·,;ohat the hon. member for t.aPoile (Mr. Neary) is talking about now is that,as the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) has indicated in an answer to a question in the :iouse this week, there are investigations ongoing dealing ~ith the Labrador linerboard as there is with any other develo9~ent i n the Province over ~hich w~ere are allegations or over which there are people ~ho, you know, have demanded certain enquiries be ~ade. 914

July 27, 1979 Tape 366 PK - 3 Premier ?eckford: So investigations are ongoing. And, you know, there is no atti!IIIPt by me as Premier, or a:a:ybody in this government, 915

July 27, 1979 Tape No. 367 PRE.~IER PECXFORD: to in any way push anything under the tabl.e. I mean, things are being investigated and when the investigations are complete ~en charges wi1l. be ld.id ill tlle oormal course of events and if charges are not laid then a report will be given by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheilllar) to the E!ouse , or to the han. member on what has occurred, and what the investigations shew under the terms and conditions under which all investigations are conducted.

So there is no attempt here by me or by anybody in the government to in any way diminish the fact that there might have been, I do not know, there might have been ~qularities in the way Labrador Linerboard was operated. I do not know. But I know that investigations are ongoing as it relates to a whole bunch of aspects relating to the whole development of Labrador Linezboard and 1 hopefully 7 these will ensure that justice is done as it relates to the whole operation.

And if there are i=egular acts performe4 by whosoever 7 then t:ba;~ they will be brought to the courts and be dealt with in an a~propriate fashion, you know. Ontil those investigations are completed, so that we can get some idea of what the situation is, I think the enquiry would not be in order right now. I think these investigations have to be completed and if these investigations show irregularities of the maqnitude that the hen. member is suggesting or implying,well,then,undoubtedly, government would have to assess whethe~ in fact, such enquiries or whatever would be necessary.

But just for the record there is no intent on our part to in any way diminish the allegations; nor is there any attempt by us to sweep them under the carpet, or to hide them away in a back corner somewhere . . If there are irregularities these investigations that are now ongoing will bring them to the attention of the appropriate authorities and proper action will be taken to ensure that justice is done. That is just as important to me as is any other issue or development in the government. 916 NM- l

July 27, , 1979 Tape No. 367 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chai.rman. MR. Cl!lURMAN (Butt): The hon. lllelllber for Lapoile. MR. NEARY: I appreciate what the 110n. gentleman said, Sir, very much and I know, and the Min.{'!.ter of Justice (Mr. ottenhei:mer l knows, that there are ongoing investigations. But these ongoing investigations, Mr. Speaker, only zero in on a specific item. These investigations are not looking at why the marketing contract was cancelled and a c~y given the contract down in Boston, Massachusetts, when the ink was hardly dry on the incorporation order in Boston. That is not being investigated.

Does the hon. gentleman understand that that is not being investigated? Why this company was given the marketing contract, why the other one was cancelled, why the shipping contract was cancelled and renegotiated with the same company involving hundreds of. thousands of dollars, that is not being investigated. Look, thera are any number of aspects. RCMP investigations zero in on specific items, and that is not good enough, Mr. Cha.i.rman.

And the hon. gentleman knows full well that when my colleague and myself argued that there should be a royal commission of enquiry into the Public Works contracts tendering procedure,that there was a police investigation going on there and as a result of that charges were laid - but the government of the day decided to set up the commission of enquiry, known now as the Mahoney Royal Commission, even though investigations were going on in that department at that time. Is that not right my friend? My hon. friend says, Yes, that is true. And that is what I am asking the Premier to do here.

I triggered some of these investigations but I am not satisfied that the whole broad spectrum is going to be looked at. And that is what I am asking for. And, Mr. Chairman, as I said to the hon. gentleman, if I am proven wrong sobeit. I am prepared to take the consequences if I am proven wrong. If the 91.7 N"t - 2

Ju.Ly 27, 1979 Tape ~o . 367 MR. NEARY: govl!l:llment have nothi..ng to hide why do they not set up the cOIIIIIIi.ssion of enquiry? Why not? we ha.ve hAd er.qui&i>:ts seL o~p fo:t thing» fcr.L lo!s.b. ~ll!' i.:.on. iE.i.f:ll<i the member for Twi.Uingate (Mr. W. Rowe) , a cOIIIIIIi.s.siotl-of en~; _ a colour te.levision set, a cOllllllission of enquiry; a judge of_ the Suprame Court. llere we are talki.tlg about one of the biggest scandals in the whole of Canada, no enquiry. And the hon. gentleman says how c:an I say that. I have alrealiy given the hon. gentleman a few facts. I cannot go any further than that.

I am not a law enfo=ement officar. I cannot go out and seize documents. I cannot get a search warrant and go out and seize the documents. There is where I am hamstrung. If I could I would. But I lay out a prima facie case iD. the Souse, that is all I can do. That is all 91.8 NM • 3

JuJ.y 27, 1979 Tape No. 368 so - 1 MR. s. NEAR%: can do in the aouse of COIIIIIIQns 7 that is all he can do in any House. And t:tU.a case of Stirlinq Internat:i.o.aal ia open and snut. AnC. you cia no-c naeci any 1110re -amp~. Thay cCIIIIe back a.Di say, •11a, b&, give us a few 1110ra ~las. • What do they think I am. Mandrake the :aaqician;' I am lucky to get. fhat one. !f thaxe was not an honest, decent genUeman on the face of this earth: I ·.ould net bAve gotten that one" who wanted to see vronqdoing expo sad.. Fact n\DIIber one, sir. And hue is anctber fact,by the way- I nave to leave now in a few minutes and.

I am going to qat off this subject but I will come back at it agai.n a.Di I am goi.nq to stay at it until somathiDq is done about this, because the more I delve into Labrador Lineriloa.rd, the more it looks lika a rotten cesspool. And I have been at it new for a couple of years, a couple or three years mysel£. Every audited account - does the han. gentleman - look, this is DOt beinq loo.kad at. Peat, MArwick and :Utchell audited the accounts of ~ador Linerboard and. every year, 'feAr in Allli year out as the han. Mini.st11r of Finane a (Dr. J.

Collins! kzlaws, vho tabled. the copies in this aouse when we were debating the Abitibi talceover, Peat, MarwicJc, Mi.tchall said we can DOt audit :rour .ccounts Mr. La.bracior t.inerboard because 'fOU are not givi.nq u.s sufficient inf0%111&tion. It is not a proper accounting. It i.s not. Every 'f&&r they said that in theU audit reports. I do not kDclw if I got one here with ma or not, I bell eve they are down in my of fica. Yes, they are down in my office, I think. NOw, these audited reports were buried Elcwn the the Depaz;tment of Finance.

We could !Ult qat them in the !:louse of Aaaembly. \Ole got tbam when the Abitibi deal was on for the first time All<' that was the first time I saw them, the first time any member of the !:louse saw them. I bet :rou there are members that did not knew to this day until they heard me say it now, Peat, Marwick 1 919

July 27, 1979 Tape No. 368 so - 2 MR. S • NEARY: wllo are world renowned, who have the reputation at bainq amongst the top accounting fizms, and auditing fizms, in the world sa:id., "Mr • .t.abraa.or I.1ner.IXla:ti we can nat, we can ngt do a proper job on your accounts. This is ngt a fair accoiintinq bacau.se . ., . . you have ngt given us sufficient infomat.iQn tc give you a fau accountixlq. • And. that has to be ig.IXlred, Mr. Chai.r.llan~ We have tc iqncra that?

Plus the fact, Sir, and. hera is another little fact, this is a fac~ - I nave thrown out five facts so far, hew ~~~any 11110rei I will throw out ana 11110ra. While we ware being told in this aouse that there was no ~et for Labrador linerboard, somebody in !.abrader Linerboard went over t.i:l Hamburg, Germany and naqotia.ted. a marJceting contract with a canpany called Schciie.J.d._,i.:l !lamburg, Genany, t:o market the full production of Labrador Linar.board. And they did inGeed market Labrador Linerboarci and. they have ~2.5 or $3 million in an account in Germany belonging t:o Labrador Liner.board.

A dispute apparently arose over the agreement and the government did not even bother to put it to arbitration• There was a clause in that a.qre-ent, by the way, when a dispute arose between the two parties that it would have to go tc l::li.miing arbitration. The government never took the steps to put it throuqh binGinq arbitration ami as a result Schcfield have S 2. 5 tc SJ million sitting in an account in Hamburg, Gennany that the government apparently i5 ignorinq. That is fact nUIII.ber five. How many 11110re do we need, Sir?

And the5e are not minor details, these are JDajor itaas. $2.5 or $3 million,in my opinion,is more siqnificant than a colour television or whether or not somebody leaked a report out of the police department where we had Royal COIIIIIIissions of Inquiry. So, tir. Chairman, all the hen. gentleman has to do to complete his track record so far, which is excellent, which is good, which is the best I have seen so far, but 920

July 27' l979 't'ape No. 36a so- 3 !m. S. !!lEAR! I tha bon. gentleman just can not cc:mcc=ate 011 tlw llli.Dor i tailS. And it is ar.J.t qoj.Jiq to qo away, I can tell the l»n. qentleJUD it i.s not qoizlq to qo away, it is qoiilq to keep recurd.Dq. '1'he coqpl.e of pCi1lice i.nvu~tio~ ~~ are qoillq · 011 are not e.JXNqh, not enouqh l:leeause they ue only z:eroinq ia on speci.fic items. An~ there is a precedent far carryin9 oa a Royal. CCIIIIIIissian iUIIi police i.Avestiqations a~ t!!-• s- time. 921.

July 27, 1979 Tape &o. 369 DW- l MR. S. &EARY: we had one only last year when the Mahoney Royal Commission was established at the same time the RCMP or the Newfoundland constabulary were i.n'71!stigating the. procedures used in the Justice Department and cha%<]es were laid and those whc) were charged - the matter is still before the court and the Commission of InquirJ is still writing its report so there is precedent for it, Sir.

And so I am asking the hon. qentleman again, to do the honourable tll&ng and the hon. c;entleman has shown me so far that he has what it takes. '.nd as I said when I started out this morning, it is qoing to take an awful lot of guts and an awfu.l lot of strength and the hon. c;entleman will certainly qet the co-operation from me when I see examples of wrongdoing. I will not hesitate to bring it to the hon. c;entle­ man' s attention or to the attention of the House. The hen. gentleman is going to need a. lot of help, human nature being what it is.

If the hen. gentleman can clean up eo or 90 per cent of the mess I would say he will have done an excellent job for Newfo'W1dland. If the hen. qentleman can get 80 per cent, I would say, that would be an excellent track record and I believe we can accomplish that. But, Sir, the hon. gentleman must realize that. he just cannot expose the Nutbeems and the Bob Coles and all this sort of thing and let the major i tC!II!S be swept under the rue;, that is not the way to do it. And I trust, Sir, that anything I said this 1110rning may influence the hen. gentleman.

Set up the Commissior.. of Inquiry and let the chips fall where they may. I am prepared - it is not the first time I have been scarred - I am prepared to bear the br'Wlt i£ I am wrong. But I would say let the chips fall where they may and set up the COllllllission of Inquiry and that is what I am asking the hon. gentleman to do today. MR. CiiAIRMAN (BCT'!'l : The hen. member for Burgee - Bay d ' Espoir. 922

July 27, 1979 Tape No. 369 ow - 2 MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairlllan, ·on another subject but still on the overall subject before the .£_ollllllittee itself. I want to put two or three points 1 .basically seeking information,to the Prelllier. I am looking at the li'IOlllent at 303 , the cabinet Secret.-iat iUtd I notice qu;ite a discrepancy in amounts with that Head as col~~Pared to the amounts provided last year. I also note that in last year's Budget we had a ~lanning and Priorities Secretariat which Head does not appear in this year's .budgetary estimates.

I would first of all assume that there has .been some marrying of the two there. I am wonder-ng i!, indeed, same of t.'le functicns of the Planning and P:-iorities Secretariat have, indeed, been put under Cabinet Secretariat because there quite a discrepancy in amounts if you look not at the revised fiqu:res for last year - MR. MARSHALL: What subhead are you on now? MR. R. SIMMONS: I am referring to 303. Is it fair to assume that some of the functions of P and P are now in what is called Cabinet secretariat1 PREMZER PECXFORD: All of them. MR. R. SIMMONS: Well, I was caming to that point.

I doubt whether all of them are or else my friends the mandarins ought to re-write the description of the Head just a little better because I do not know if I should read a philosophical message in the two

definitions. tast year Planning and Priorities is defined as being responsible for making reconnenc!ations on policy matters etc. as well as reCODUDendations on the establishment of long-range government priorities. I notice by a careful comparison of the wording of last year and this year that only the last phrase is missing, tr~t somehow either in the phraseology or in the deed, gcivernment has abandoned its commitment to long-range government priorities.

I hope that is just a semantic omission only, because I felt from the very beginning that there was some need in go"Vl!rnment for the kind of function that was purported to be performed by P and P, the function of taking a long hard look well down the pipe to determine "what the long-range effectiveness of various government 923

JW.y 271 1979 Tape 370 EC- 1 MR.. SI*ONS: p:roqramBS llliqht be and what, indeed, the lanq-r.mqe priorities of 90~t ouqht ta be. But aa I s.ay, I h~ that is ju.t a sem.mtic diffe~ce, .u~ci !Mirhaps the .Pl:&mier wUl VaDt to co-t on th&t cme. I wUJ.t ta co- back ta the matter of the 110-e&l.l.ed. "vised Eatilllates. If .-ban of Coaaittee wiJ.l loolc. at this year's Budqet, 011 the :right, of course, by llOW they ha.,. disco'Nred that colUIIIl of fiqures called Revised 1978 - 1979.

ADd I woW.d suqqest ta the ca-i. ttee and particularly to tho8e who hava the respoDSi.bili ty of the detail of this B~t and also ta the Minister of Fin.mca, 011 this m&tter, th&t that C:OlWIIIl of figures hu the effect of beinq very, very deceptive. I aa not su~stinq that wu evar the inta11t - I aa sure it wu not tha intea.t - but i.t has the effect of beinq very, very daceptj.va.

For exu~Ple, tha point I just m&da a IIIOI*lt aqo about cabinet Secretariat - if yau lock at the :right column it says $7l3,000r if you look at the left column it says $769,000, Al1d there is nothinq in these two fi.qures that woW.d raise your suspicions or would SUCJIJ'est that there is any basic caparture f:rom. last year's way of doing thinqs. The fiqure rises f:rom $713,000 ta $769,000 and one could usw. that with salary increases and infl.aticn and so an, that is the no:caal inc:rease of $50,000 or S60, 000.

It is only wh811 you 90 l::lack and c:ompue last year's Budqet doC1mant that you "ali.ze that then haa been a full-scale reorqilll.izatian of the Cabinet Secretariat and that, indeed, the amount budqetad laat year for Cabinet Secretariat u such wu not at all $713,000 'but, indeed, wu $165,000. Al1d that is why I ny ta the Minister of Fi.nal1ce (Dr. J. Collins) that this riqht c:olumn is very, vary deceptive. Now, I llave not picked a qood eXD~ple because there h.. 'been a fairly full-scala reorqilll.ization or mcn:a particularly, a marrying up of P. and P. ~d the cabinet Secretariat, u I understand it.

But there are ather examples. Al1d I qive this kind of example wi.thcu.t pointing ta a particular one: You often nave the situation when last year when the Estimates -re before Coaaittee - nad a pz:oject:i.on of X dollars. so..wbe:re later in the year after that Estimate passed Colllllittea and passed the Bouse - so-where later in the fiscal year 924

------- - Jl.lly 271 1979 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS : it was prwient or it was advisable or nacassazy in the department concerned, ~oinq tbrouqb the appropriate ~--ar 4 ...... in := of 'l'reas'.ll:Y ~a.rd approvaLs and ..so on '!' but it.. was Prudlmt in the ciepart~Mnt cancuned to alter that fic;ure and then ~e II8V fiqura got called the revised estimate. And it is tlla.t reused estimate 1 I pres~, wtlich sbaws up h.ere in this year • s da~t. Now that i.a deceptive in this sense, I say to the Ki:U.star of Finance (Dr. J.

COllins) - and I wlll just tAke a ballpark or a h.ypothe:tical. exaJIIIille - say the figure in an i tam in fish.eries, for example, last year wu $100,000, but because of parei.cu.lar d.rCUIUtmlC8s, gear l,gst or wh&taver, the $100 , 000 wu put up to $2 million l:ly a special Orcier-in­ COIDI.c:il. - AN BON. MEMBER: It was ( inaudi.ble) • MR.

SIMMONS: - and it wu all al:loveboard. - I 1111 oct SUt)'18etinq that - it waa all done with the ri~ht Treaaury Board U1ci Cabinet minutes or whatever the cue llliqbt 11&ve been., but the amoiDI.t th.il.t was budgeted last year, say, was $100,000 and then by dua process outside the Souse it got put up to $2 million, so that wh.en the fiqure =-s before us this year it says Revised Estimate $2 million, and it is daceptiva, because it does 110t show wb.at the intent of the Housi. wu last year.

And I would submit to the Ki:U.star of Finance that in future there ought to be either three cal'IDms shoving the original estimates and the revised and this years or else bia columns showing the original estimates last year and this year's estimates. Now I prefer the fo~r. I would like to see the ~ sets of fiqurea sa one QQuld fai.rly readily see wh.at happened since the Estimates passed the Souse last Spring, as is 110rmally the =--•. Mr.

Ch&i.rmau , while I 1111 on my feat - I think I have two or three minutes , da I? · Personally 1 I would say to the Premier 1 - would like to IIIDva throuqh his Estimates during the 1110rning. We da not lll&ke any coaaitment to finish them a.ltbouqh. - DIAY well be able to da 110 1 but - wol.lld like to t:alte it h.ead by h.ead fairly soon, as I 1111 sure he would, because sODB of our people nave so- particular questions they would like to raise. aut while I 1111 under the general head of his salary, col.lld I U5o raise 306 1 The Ecaocmic Oevelcp-nt Advisory 925

July 27, 1979 Tape 370 EC- 3 Kll. SDIIIJNS: • ~&1 of ~t yeu' s ut:i.llatas for hia d8~t does DOt tun up "'l'f nd1. t.itl.a u Ec:ono-ia ~t Advimry.-~UDcil.,. i.t .. t haft lMe t1ICkri e~ay u • sul:lheecl or -~CJ· I caDDOt .... to find. it alt:bDuqh tba ~t mow. that thUe -~ ~ axpeDdi.turu - 01UY $4,600, lliDii yo~a - Dllt I camaot sea to fiA4 tbe label. at all. in l,at year's Budtpat. And. my poLltt i.s this, really; 926

Jaly 27,1979 Tape No. 371 AH-1 MR. SIMMONS: it appears to me that it is a new head this year and then I read the little asterisk, the little star~ it tells me that the functions of this qroup will be transferred to ot'.her gove:rnment depart:Mnts durinq this fiscal year, and I qat the messaqe, I get the feelinCJ that the Econclll:ic ee-lopMent Advisory COuncil is somethinq that was just brought into beinq this year and I assUIIIe we are talkinq aboUt that group of businesSllll!n that were appointed. Is that cornet to assume? That is what the label ll'll!lans.

And I qet the feelinq it has just come in the front door and out the back door or the other way around, in the baclt door and out the front door but it does not se_. like it is qoinq to ha- a very lonq life unless for structural reasons or functional reasons it has been put saaewhere else. But the Budqet is not too clear on that particular point and perhaps the Premier wauld care to address himself to it in the next few minutes • MR. CHAiliMAN: (Butt) PREMIER PEo:FORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to - seeinq I am in the ll'.ood for tablinq thinqs, I would like to table the issue that c- up yesterday. I do not know if it caJDe up under my estilnates or not but I should table it anyway. It is a copy of the grant or the transfer of the Roaches Line house and the - JIB HOH. MEMBER: PREMIER PECJ:FO'RD : It was in Question Period. It was in Question Period. 'ii'aa it? If nobody minds I will table it. '"l'he hon. Joseph R.

Smallwood, Roaches Line, Port de Grave district, provided to him until he dies and his wife dies and then after that point in tilne it was supposed to re-rt as a residence for future Premiers or the Lieutentant-Governor of Newfoundland if he so desires it. ~aintenance and so on will be handled by the occupant and so on." Anyway here is the documentation on it that I table for hon. members. Perusal over the weekendr The 'Eilanninq and Priorities; that. was just a seDiantic anission. I did not piclt it up when I was qoinq through the estiDiates.

It could haVe been Planning and Priorities there just as easy as it could have been Cabinet Secretariat • There is no particular reason for it and 927

July 27,1979 Tape No. 371 AH-2 PREMIER PEo:FORD: it is still carrying out the functions which it has carried out over the last couple of years. It is doing some useful work and we are really getting involved in it now and usinq the g~p that are there ext~ively in the whole development of our five year plan which is getting off ~the gr6uni:l. pretty quickly now. The hon. member' s point on the revised, the original and the one for this year is a good point and I have no objection 1 ! de not know if the Treasury Board people or Finance would 1 of putting in the three columns.

That would be the one I would prefer rather than the original and the new one. I think the three should be in t."lere and ! would agree with the hen. member that that would be the way I would like to see it qo. The estimates for the present year, the revised for the last year and the original because then you can really get a real. ~ck picture and then the ministers could give reasons why change. The Economic Advisory Council - where that was last year? I do not know. I see under the revised that it was $4,600 and the $17,000 there now is just to clean up outstanding bills that were incurred last year.

I quess the note refers to that a number of reviews were under way. The Economic Advisory Council wh.±ch were a group of businessmen that were established by the former Premier and they charged or had initiated a number of studies which cost money which the government had to pay for in reviewing a number of areas of government. That is to pay the consultants and so on, that $17,000. Research for various studies: The note refers to that scme of the functions that this Economic Advisory council were carrying out are qoinq to be done by the departments themselves.

They are going to do the reviews themselves or money will be allocated there. The concept that I am interested in pursuing is under 308, the Econc:mic Council of Newfoundland and Labrador whi:l:h is advice on the economy and fiscal matters. The general economic and fiscal performance of the government and ways that this council can advice government on ways to stimulate the economy, fiscal matters 928

J1.1ly 27 , 1979 Tape No. 371 that qovermaent could take rather thaD havinq a coanc:il which wou!.d- I hape the hon. member is listeninCJ to me - which wouLd re'ri.- whether crawn lands should be c:haJlCJed, or review whether SOllie other PZOCJ:r:DIIIe or .di viaion of ~t should c:haDCJe. I think ~:mment, for the in6st part, Should . be ahle to respond to those kinds of ehanqes • I th:ink one of the thinCJS ttu.t they were lcokinCJ at was 929

- -- - -- July 27, 1979 Tape No. 372 PREMIER PECXFORD: Crown Lands and a couple of other areas as I remember it now.

But what I would like to have is a group of individuals from around the Province, small businessmen, la.bour men and so on, ten or fifteen people .who would participate with government financially, in setting up an independent group who would advise government three or four times a year, however long it took, on the performance of the economy, the performance of the government, and say, "Look, we think that if next year you did a, b, and c as it related to your taxation regime that you would qet more out of it." or that, "you would stimulate jobs." And a coDDI!ent upon the economic activity in Labrador, or in the Southern part of the Island or whatever, on the fishery or on the forestry.

"This is where you are going wrong. You have a big DREE agreement gove~t,of $55 million but you know those access roads are just a disaster where you are putting them," or "you are going about it the wronq way." On broad matters of policy where some impac;t could really be !!lade. That is the kind of council I would like to see and have broad representation on it. I would like to see them also participate financially in its existence. We are putting in SlO, 000 there to get the thing started. And even do some studies on it relative to those broad areas. Because that is what is important.

If we cannot as a government - I mean we would be really,in my view,not doing our job at all if we need somebody else to tell us that Crown Lands is not working, which is MY bugaboo always, every time I want to think about inefficiency, you know, and a couple of other areas of government. aoly smoke, we know that! We do not have to spend any more'money on that.

But I do think we need an outside independent view on how we, as a government through our budgetary process and how our budget has affected the economy during that year and whether there should be changes in forestry, constructive suggestions coming from them. 930 NM- 1

July 27, 1979 Tape No. 372 PREMIER PECKFORD: "Look, you should change that for'!!!stry area:" or whatever. Fisheries; ~~~a.jor collllll8nts on fishery development and how we are handling that. And the whol~ area of fiscal policy - "If you are really strapped government this is the '<IllY you should go about it .• " And par haps give llS some new ideas. I think that is t.he way some of the other economic councils around the country perform. And the Conference Board does a great job.

You know, two or three years ago I remember standing up in the ~ouse and talking about the Conference Board and hardly anybody on this side or on the opposite side knew anything about it. I do not know if any members remember. I brought up the figures and so on at the time. And I ra.n into it in reading it in the paper one time a.nd I accidently almost ran into somebody who worked for the Conference Board, while on a trip to Ottawa one time and I was able to get a lot of information. And that has performed a very, very valuable function and I mean it hits the headlines in the right way.

It just does not say, ''Government you are bad and you are doing everything wrong 1 " it says, "Look, if you are really interested in doing something here are the pros and cons of it. Here is what­ you lmow,. this policy worked half way but if you want it to work more than half way this is the way you should go about it." And most governments are very responsive to that kind of thing. And that is what I envisage in having an economic council, not to get into a programme review.

We have enough people in the secretariats nov. 'Go and do a programme review on that or whatever' - and under our planning agreements and so on, Sir. We have all kinds of ·~ys to do programme review. It is just a matter of somebody shOwing a bit of leadership and say, "Go do it. I ;.r.mt a full independent review on it, and get it done within the next three months because I want to take a look at it." I should be able to do t..'lat and the ministers should. That is what "'e 931. NM- 2

July 27, 1979 Tape No. 372 PREMIER PECI<FORD: are getting paid for,hopefully. But we do need outside independent views and analysis of our perfoxmance as a government in the field of our economy} our fiscal measures and things like that and that is how I envisage the Economic council going. Where it was last year I am not sure. To answer the member directly 1 I do not know where it showed up in t."'.e estimates. I can find out for the hen. gentleman. But there was some money in it. This is just to finish off some of those studies that were done. MR.

SIMMONS: The Conference Board is just probably something that was reallocated because this item came up since the last fiscal year began. PREMIER PECI<FORD: Yes. So it was created after the budget and the estimates went through the House. MR. SIMMONS: about the other column. PRm'IER PECI<FORD: MR. SIMMONS: Which is the point I make again .iU:Isolutely. If you had the original column yau would see there was nothing budgeted. PREMIER PECI<FORD: I do not argue with you at all.

It is a point well taken and I am in full agreement with the hen. member and I think it is a good idea for us to look at for next year in our budget, no problem at all. MR. CBlU:RMAN (Butt): MR. WHITE: On motion subhead 302-0l, carried. Shall 302-02-0l carry? The hon. member for Lewisporte. Mr. Chainran, I was just going to ask the Premier a question relative to the automobile that he is driving. Be inherited the one, that monstrosity from 932 NM - 3

July 27' 1979 Tape 373 I?K - l Mr. White: the former Premier_, and. I was wondering if he plans to keep that or get rid of it or what he plans to do in the next l~ttle ~le on i~~ MR. CHAIRMAN (BU'l"l') : The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know yet what we are going to do" with it. We are having all kinds of problems with it.Someone ran into it yesterday or the day before in on the parking lot of a garage or somethina. MR. SDIMONS: Did you get a paint job done on it? PREMIER PEOFORD: Yes, we had a paint job done on it because it was rusted out. MR.

SIMMONS: They are making good Hondas these days 'Brian'. PREMIER PEC!a:"ORD: Yes. I am used to the rusting out, by the way, You know. Oid anybody notice the old red and white Mercury Meteor I had r I had 104, 000 miles on it • It rusted out three times. I had it redone three times and it rusted out. There is some thought been given, I think, the Minister of PUblic Works (Mr. Young) mentioned it to me on a couple of occasions in the last week or so that perhaps what should be done - those Lincoln continentals are not being 11111de any more - MR. WHITE: They should not be either.

PREMIER PECKFORD: It is a monstro!!ity. It is hard meandering around. Perhaps it could be used just on special occasions or something seeing we own the car now, keep it as a memento and put it in the garage back there and purchase a more modest car for the Premier to drive, to flick around in. MR. WHITE: P!l!:MIER PECKFORD: MR. WHITE: ten years. PREMIER ?ECKFORD: Buy yourself a nice Mercedes. Pardon? Buy yourself a nice Mercedes that will last I will have to bow to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and see how he got on.

But I would rather just have something like I got out by the door now,a Matador or something along 933

July 27, 1979 Tape 373 PK - 2 Premier Peck:ford: those lines to spin arcWid town in, and, you know, hopefully net get stepped teo often by the constabulary, as was my wont from time to time in the last three or four weeks, gettinq additional tickets fer speeding . or jumping stop siqns. That is the.~ of_w~VJ · that I would like to go.

Perhaps the best thing to do with tha:t:- car is to just keep it for special occasions and so on, and the Premier or whatever- you know, the official opening of the Rouse or whatever, use it fer all those kinds of special occasions, whi.ch woull'\ be nice for diqnuaries coming in.For example, I think there are four or five of the bo~~ from the Middle East coming in here the latter part of Auqust, the Saudi Arabian people . and we have to be good to them, and the Venetian people, and the Jordanian people. MR.

WHrl'E: They will proDably fly their own - PREMIER PECKFORD: If ambassadors are coming in, well then we could have someone from the car pool go qreet them, you know, in a pretty nice looking vehicle. Meanwhil .e, I can keep dArting around town in my more :nodest medium size car. That is the kind of thing we are looking at fer the information of the hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. SJ:MMONS: I could lend you my Datsun, if you like. MR. CHAJ:1IMAN (Btl'l."rl Shall 302-02-01 earry? On motion Clauses 302-02-01 through 302-02-02 carried. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, on 302-Q2-03? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hen. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SJ:MMONS: I think I understand the intent here. I am on the item of "Grants .with respect to Forllll!r Premiers" and I understand the purpose is to allow them to put down on paper for posterity the essence of their time in office. That is a noble intent as long as that is the way it turns out. I have a suspicion on this particular subhead, and I would go so far as to suggest that it would never be in the estimates for this year if the immediate for=er Premier were not the person he is, individually is. Indeed,a strict application of the 934

July l7. 1979 Tape 373 PK - 3 criteria laid down by the Premier would disqualify the arigizlal former Premier since it is hardl.y the first three years since he - the three vears cOIIIinq ug are hardl.v the first t:.hAe since be left office. It has been,now~Dearly ar over seveu years siDce he le£t of . .fice. And let us be under any illusions, Mr. Chai.rmai!.. this was created, dOC:tor.ed i£ you like,for a particu.la.r individual and to look like fair play, to ~ it look like fair play we had to write the rule in general tl!%li!S, and I do not Jcnock that at all.

I.f you are qoing to do it for one, you are qoinq to do it for allJ of course. But my concern is the one that I alluded to first, just a couple of minutes aqo, and ~t is that i£ the intent of the grant is to ~ow us to preserve for posterity the essence of that person 1 s time in office,. then we ouqht to ensure that it be used for that purpose, and I am not )Jeinq mistxustful of either Mr. MOores or Mr. Smallwood. I am nat suqqestinq that at all. What I am sayinq is that the grant ouqht not to be a de facto, an ~tic t:hinq, it ouqht to be there 935

---- - ----- ------ --·· July 27, l979 't'ape 374 EC- l MR. SDtl«lNS: if the incii vidU&l. nquizes it for !:bose pupo-, uad pamapa that ia the way it is sat gp. 't'o say it 11110tber way, tba pzovisioll of o.ffic:a and. t1w pzoviaion of sec::atari.&l oQ911t to be not for ~ just becaua he hAs baeD. P:..ier, JNt· becaua bAvinq been Pruaier, he wuta to write Ilia __,irs or· waa.ts to P1lt oa. tba record thinc;s for poatarity. It silould. not be a f~ offiCII mel a f.rae sec::a~ to do wbatav.r ha vaa.ts to ao dUrinq t1w fizst three years &ttar be lea"ftS his offic:a u P:z:eaier.

Alld. pemaps I have ada the point sufficiantly well that tba st.ipul.atica and peztl.lpa the c=tt:ol ia ~ad.y th&rl!l. I a S'ID:& the bon. the Premier will inciicata this to • wheD.

I sit dowa. '1"ha stipulaticm ouqht to l:le that it ia &'Ail.Abl.a to a fo:c.r Preaier should he vaa.t to tue ad.VIIDt&qa of it for the puzpoaa intended, the pw:poaa l:>einq to write ..oi.z:s or to othez:wisa qet Ilia recard.ll in order, which in tlJia, I would th1Dk, he would. t:z:aa.afer to the Public Arcbi-. or wt.re,.r so they are ll'll'ail..Uila to po.Urity, to ~le wba want to da llistoz:i.c:Al. research. into that inciividaal 's period. in offic:a. Perhaps the Prulier cauld ca~t oD that paint if ha hAs heerd DIY point. MR. CIIADIION: (Butt) 'l'he hon. tba PI:Uiier.

PRBMIElt P!:ca'ORD1 Yu, Mr. 01~, the ...aer•s point is ,.z:y -.u t..un and r ~d.ata it ~dy th&t he IIIAkes that kind of a point. You . Jcnow, that is what it was dona for. ID May attar the leadership ud. I uslmad. this office and I revi-ed the a.d. hac: way that we ware l.aok.inq attar f~ Pruaian and. 10 on, thi.D.qa did. not •- to be quita equitable .a I revi-ed the wbala thinq and s.d.d, 'Okay, fzoa DOW oa., even thcu.qh, you lcNJw, Mr. Slull.vaod. had been a fon.r Pram:ler now for ~ lonq period. of time - MR. SDe«lNS: Yes. PREMIER PEaFORD: - let. WI da it riqllt fzoa nov:.

I 1118&11, you draw the line •~here, so that is what I did, even tbouqh one could make a cue, I suppose. aut I was not doi.nq it to justi£y Mr. Moores, the foa.r Prem:i.er, havi.D.q to <Jive hila SOIIII!I 1110ney· . I di.d not do it in that 936

July 27, 1979 Tape 374 EC - 2 PREMIER PEOC!tlRD: vein a.t a.ll.. I -an, I do DCt have ta j 1111tify anyth.i.D.q for th&t. U I. thouqht it should. !)e doaa aDd it wu a. tw~le thi.Dq to do, I wU.l j Wlt.ily l.t '1:l'f S&yi.Dq Wba.~ I - S&yl.Dq DOW, I will DCt juati.fy it by a.lso qi.vinq it ta Kr. s.a.uwoo_d, tbAt _was not tha po:i.Dt:. But I thauql:l.t it wu fair and aqui.tabla ta sta.rt fioa th&t date, fro& that point iD tila, eWA thauqtl one c:aa. make the ~t about & lone; tim. O.:foz:e.

But this point ia ..U taken, it should not be used fo.r other P1UPO•-· ~ foXBtr Premiers in"VOlved should spend that~ on wb&t it wu intancWd. far and that wu forth .. ta prepaza the uotas and tha do=-nta aDd aJ.l the thinqs tb&t they bad vh:i.l.a they were Preaier so that than it can 0. ~.a over and used by hiatorlans aDd by wbosoever wants to exami.na that period of ou:r history so-~ in the future. The poiAt ia -u tUm1 and I appreciate it that the bon. l*llber bxinqs it up. On motion, 302-03, carried. on motion, 303-Ql. and 303-o:Z-ol., carried. Mll. CHADIMAN: (Butt) SII.All 303-<l:Z-Ql car:y? Mll.

S'l'Em.ING: Mr. CbeiJ"'Mn. Mll. CHAili:M1oH • The lion. the !MIIIbar for BOnavista North. MR.. S'rEHLINGt Mr. c:b•iman, I. ra&d the ~t that the Pra!Ki.er tabled on the cabUlat Sec:ratarlat • It. - to ba a '98rlf illl(lortant <JZ'O'IIP and presU~U.Dly, t:D.y llave bean there fox: so- time - thAt <JrO'IIP at leut has been intact. !Ia. it? The llon. the Prellli.er. Yes, it hu been there for a. nUIIber of years and there ia real.ly a ~f!Ud procedure hare. There are a number of Cabinet c:c.U.tteea - there are :ra&J.l.y now three Cail.iJlet =-itues, the SOcial.

Policy Colllalittae o:f cab:i.Det, the Reso=ca· Policy c:o-it.tae of CaDinet and the Plmninq and Priorities Co.ai.ttae of caa.iJlet, and vb&t happens is if a m:Lnia ter, for aXIIIIple - the ac:lll.iniat.rati ve or the practical. function that thia <JrOup perfo:cu is, u cab:Ul.et papers are prepared by dep~ts tiu!y are put into the system and they are refarred ta the Social Policy Co.U.tt.ee of Cailinet or the Resource Policy Committee of cabinet, depending upon the departDmt 7 and then the Secretariat does reseax:c:h ~n that paper 937

July 27, 1979 Tape 374 EC - 3 P.REIUER PECCFORD: and qcea b&e:Jt to the department. All.d than the lllinistez:s meat on that paper, with the raseucl1 be.inq dena !)y the Secretariat, and the Sea.tariat says, yea, they acp:ee wi.a the dap&rtmlmt's paper, or !ZQII a social policy point of v.ief ,than ~­ lonq-ran~ pzobl- ban that we should be awan of and. so on. -A =-nt goes on than fZQII tb.&t cabinet committee to the full cabinet.

SO it has been ana.lyad. fzom & fi.Dancia.l ·point of view because it hall qcna to 'r:easw:y Board; it hall been analysed fzom & social or resource pollcy point of vi- before it CJ08S on to cabinet, so there a:e two =-nts on it, a financial one and & policy one. Theile are the practical functions of tho- inc!ividual.s in the cabinet Sec::etariat. Aile! in the l.A:qar ~stion, they are U.o charqacl with the responsillility - and naw they are really c;attinq into it - to do so.- l.onq-ranqe pl.anninq as it rslates tO health c:aza, u it relates to sociAl serrl.cu 938

July 27, l979 Tape No. 375 SD - l PRE.'4IER PEaFORD: aocial ~ervices and sc on in thair various av~Umes.. and we_ are _acing- that right ncw for our five year pla.n, fer example. They are gettinq well involved-in tbat right new and we have get even a. timetable acne up, a. specific tlJIIetatlle_fo:r dcinq a.ll the stwiies, reviewing it with the depar13ants. For example, sittinq dcwn with deputy minister and so on in the Department of Social Services a.nd sayinq, nDW, leek, what are we dcinq right and what are we dcinq wrcnq from. the policy point of view? a:cw sbould this thing be changed in the next five years?

So they have been there for three or four years a.nd they are there toJfirst of a.ll, help resea:rch,fran a. policy point of view, a. given initiative a. department wants tc take a.nd secondly, in the long ranqe l to study and research fer lcnq-range pla.nninq a.s it relates tl:l social or resource policy. MR. STIRLING: lo!R. CRAIRMAN: (Butt) MR. L. STIRLING, MR. CHAI:RMAN: MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you very much Shall Ol cazry? Mr. Cha.i=an. The hgn. m-.ber for Bcnavista North. I would lika to spend a. minute or two on this, Mr. Chairman, because I think it is very important.

From. the point of view - I appreciate that the Premier has established, certainly with the people of Newfoundland a.nd the people of Newfoundland accepted it, that he is a. new Premier a.nd this is a. new government. I had a. little bit of involvement with government to lalcw that government is not like bu.yinq a new car, yau turn on the key a.nd you start it, or buying a. new bouse, Government, 90 per cent of it, is rcllinq a.lonq and there is a. great deal of continuity. I intend to get into tllis in discussing it with the Minister of Industrial Development (Mr. L. Barry).

I am a bit concerned that there is, in the attempt to say this is a. new administration, there seems to be no ,acceptance that the gcver:nment did net start a mcnth a.qc. This government has been a.n ongoing gcver:nment. The Premier himself has done a. very good job a.s a. minister and he highlights his involvement in one of the departments M.ines and Energy - and the regulations. The minister has also done 939

Jul.y 271 1979 Tape No. 375 SD - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: other good. ...ork in otber departments. . O.bvioasly, the _cabinet Sec:;etariat muat have been involved in, for example, the five year blueprint. Maybe I coul.d just pa.usa for a minute while the Premier incticates whether or not that is the case. The five year blueprint that was in tbe last auaqet, the 1978 Budqet. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) PRE.NZER PECXFORD: The hen. the Premier. That is difficul.t tc answer directly.

You are only involved it it tc the extent that your department was affected ami you then prepared proposals to the Premier of the day Uld tc the people who were preparing it at Treasury Soard. anci Finance who were taking directions freD their lllinisters and. fr0111 the Premier on that matter. so insofar as it affected your given portfolio, I am sure the hon. member k:nows hew the system wor.ks, that there is a. fair amount of flexibility in it and that if the leader of the government wishes tc proceed a. certain way, well, you kllDw, it does proceed that way.

So one has input, yes, in a conficlential manner but that is all I can say. There was some input from t.he department of which I was minister at the time as it impacted. upon that department, that was the major area in which I hacl imput. MR. CHAIRMAN: !om. L. ST.IRLDJG: Tha hen. member for Bonavista North. Thank you very much, Mr. Premier, but that was :cct the question, I meant the Cabinet Secretariat in their role, or the Planning ancl Priorities Secretariat in t.heir role of the five year development proqra~~~~~e. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. L. S'nRLING: They ...ould do the research then, yes.

They IIIUSt llave hacl a fairly heavy input from tbe l?rem.ier • s description of them a.ncl the importance of them in the new role in lonq-ranqe planning. Essentially, if they are the same people doing that five year blueprint then,presum~lyJ the same people would DOt have a sudden chanqe of views as a result of preparing the new five year proqramme? 940

July 27, 1979 Tape No. 375 Sl) - 3 MR. CHAI~: (Butt) Tbll hen. the Premier. PREMIER PEC<:FORD: Well, tbay are primarily researchers and the policy is developed by the people on the ~nt !fllDCh .m you Q!Qv, I o1,111 vary hiqh on that. It is a JDAtter of leadership., we are the ona who must detanaine what the pollcies are going to l::e., or the pr~uaes are qoinq to be and what we a&k this Cabinet Secretaria.t to do is to do research on given items daa.llnq wit.'l that so that all the info:z:ma.tion is known alld then we can malca a policy decision on it.

So, their IDAin role is not in the policy area but research on the policy .nd then the pollc~es are articulated .uxi discussed and laid down by the Cabinet COIIIIIIitteu, by the Planninq and Priorities eo-ittee of cabinet and so on. MR. C!IAIIUUN: The hen. member for Bonavista North. MR. I.. STIM.mG : I '-'Ould just Lute to stay with that far a few minutes.

I accept it is the leader's responsil:lll.ity and tn. ca.binet' s responsibility. '!ou ~~Mmtioned eo-ittees of Cabinet iUid I think we have new, in lceepinq with the new rules, sat up COIIIIIIittees of the Rouse of Asslllllbly ;,hich rouqhl.y approltimate tba s- areaa.

And in kaepinq with your intention,wtU.ch I also accept at face •.raluoa aJld in good faith, in keepinq with your inta.ntion I am sure that you are aware th&t the members of that cOIIIIIIittae, if tbey are goinq to l:lave an onqoinq i.Jiput in that collllllittee ~ llDt just deal with estimates and becaae lclllawledqaable, pras\llllably will illso have acca&s to some of the infozmatian, !lDt of a confidential natu;"e but Salle of the infozmation that you have outlined in this document, some of the information, for example, 941.

July 27,1979 Tape No. 376 AH-1 MR. STIRLING: dealinq with the econamic research and analysis wnic:h presQIIB..bly is hard-fact type of thinq the ctmaittees which we have now established will' also- have access to that information. MR. CHJUJIMAN: The hon. the Pruier. PREMIER PEc::FORD: Yes, Mr. Chaizman, ~e hon. llle!N:Ier could have access to lDOSt of that inform«~i('!l now if he wanted to, that kind of factual, statistical infoJ:lllation that is available which is not policy orientated or s<Dethinq that the qove:mment is considerinq. MR.

ROBER'rS : 9ut not analysis or such policy the lllini.stry are consideri.nq or contemplati.nq. P'REMIER PECXFORD : Riqht. Exa~ly. Othm:wise it! would be available, no question. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) The hen. member for the Strait of hlle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I think this is an awfully important point and I think one that could be of imlllense value to the members on both sides.

Now, obviously, a policy that the administration are considering or that the Cabinet Secretariat are analysinq,well that is quite peoperly confidential, it is quite properly something that should be kept privy and private until the I Cabinet has made a decision and at wnic:h staqe the appropriate announcaments are made. But it is very qenerous of the Premier to say that within reasonable bounds information eM be made available. I would like to qo a step further and say, How do we know what kind of infoJ:lllation there is? Nobody on this side has had the Queen's Coaaission for eiqht years.

There has been an inmense qrowth in these secretariats,sometimes almost an obscenely larqe qrowth,in my view. I zws-pact they could do with some judicious pruninq. I think we have seen the tendency of bureaucracies to expand silnply for the saxe of bureaucracy. I do not say that in any destructive but in a very constructive sense. I ~~ink bureaucracies by definition tend to 942

Jul.y 27,1979 Tape No. 376 AH-2 .'!R. ROBERTS : expand.

Professor Parkison in his third law, I believe, "Work expands to fill the time available," and then the sub law is that, "Staff expands to fill the work available. • But is there any way the Premier can suqqest that ll!llllltiers on this side, in particular, and I would think it miqht apply to his Owil backl:ienCh supporters who have no role in the day to day =ninq of the qovernment, the eXIIcuti·.re government, can find out just - could,for example the Secretuiat Secretaries, whate-r they are cal.led, the Executive Directors, I am not even sure I know the n-s of th- because 1 of course 7 they change from tiJIIe to t:ill!e , but could these men perhaps be made available to sit da1iln with ~ers from both sides to brief them on the sorts of infoxmation that miqht be available.

Now, sc.ebody miqht say, What abcut confidential material? Then I would simply say that I would have and I am sure the Premier would have sufficient fa.i th. These who are very senior ptlblic servants, top-notch men in every sense of the word . and I am sura if they- -re asked about somet.'l.inq ·they ~ quite capable -I think they have sufficient discretion to be quit. eapable of sayiDCJ, "! a111 sony that is something we cannot really talk to you about. • Could that be done? I know that~ for example,a couple of the deputies llave made th-selves .avulable,doubtlesa I assume, with their minister' s concurrence.

That is between the deputy and the minister. My friend from Foqo (Mr.'l"Ulk) ,I think, bas t&lked to the Deputy Minister of Social Services - he is our spokesman on Social Services -I have no doubt with the minister's approval and the deputy said, well here is the kind of laqislation we &clminister. Here is what - can leqitimately tell you. C:ould that be done~ sarinars or somethinq scheduled? MR. c:muliMAN: (Butt) Pl!EMIZR. PEO:l"'RD: The hon. the Premier. Yes , !!!r. Ol.ai:rman , I tend to qo alonq with that. I do not see any real problems. It is just a matter of establishing it.

The other thinq is-I do not know if bon. members - I do not kaow if this was pasaed around to all members or not but it really should be, and that is that quarterly review that the 943

July 27 '1979 lm.. roBERTS: PREMIER PECD'ORD: MR. ROBERTS: sure if the hon. -=ers hava. MR. RIDEOUT: passed around. PREMIER PECD'ORD: 'rape No. 376 The economic. Yes. AH-3 I have seen it but I am not It is not·automat!cally It was available but 9e should really, I guess, have it distributed autCIIIIatically to all the members because it is infomation. There is nothinq of any confidential nature it is dealinq with, by and l;uqe it is not. &ld I think that is one area we could do immediately because I think a lot of 11111mbers would qain scail valuable b~drop. MR. ROBERTS: Even the flash sh-ts.

PREMJ:ER PEcta'ORD: And the flash sheets.as well. Exactly! I think that could be set up so that a lot of infomation flow not now qettinq out - nobody's fault really, it is just that we have been lax in it. MR. roBERTS: M:ost people just do not know what is available. PREMIER PECD'O:RD: That is riqht. They do not lcnow what is available. Meetinqs like that could be established with the E:x.cutive Director of Planninq and Priorities, Mr. Vardy and his two secretarieS' . who are secretaries to the two policy committees of cabinet, M:r.Peters and Miss Baird. MR. roBER!'S : Mr.

Vardy is Executive Director of Planninq but is he not Clerk of the Executive of the Cabinet? PREMJ:ER Pl!:o::P'ORDI. MR. ROBER!'S : both roles. PREMIER PECD'ORD: a: bad marriaqe really when one looks at the - MR. ROBERTS : Yes. He also punches in Yes, which is not It is a curious offsprinq but it is not a bad mar.riaqe. I think it makes a lot of sense. The two jobs are - 944

July 27, 1979 Mr- Rcberts: a.nd Planning. PRE!aER PECXFORD: Tape 377 Pl{ - l ill the full cabinet a

section deals with Priorities That is right. And then he has .tti.s 010 assis1:an1:s, if you want to call them that,who are secretaries to the tWO cabinet COllllllittees on Resource and Social, and they spearhead the research· on each of the papers that come up through the system to them, and they spearhead the research and the comment. It then goes to the Cabinet Committee itself. cabinet Committees are now - for example,we have established a system each week so that the thing really gets moving, you just do not have people - The Social and Resource Policy Committees of Cabinet meet on Mondays, both of them.

TUesday is Treasury Board, \-lednesday is the Planning and Priorities Committee, Thursday is full cabinet, so that you get a flow each week.And the last last one - MR. ROBERTS: Does anything ever get done with all the paper work? PREMIER PEoa'ORD: Well it is. We have a bit too much paper. We are going to have to try and cuu down on some of the paper. But if you keep to a system like that you will get the flow at the end of the week to Tbursday,you see, right ill the cabinet after all the analysis has been done. And as the bon. member knows as well as I and perhaps better, you know, unless you

schedule and really move that thing into a time frame and a

schedule the whole thing goes - MR. ROBERTS: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. ROBERTS: Well the system functions just for itself. The thing goes haywire. That is right. Mr. ChaiJ:man, would the Premier undertake, because 1 I mean,if one of us rings Mr. Vardy he will be polite arid that is quite properly as far as- PREMIER PECXFORD: MR. ROBERTS: P'REMIER PECXFORD: MR. .ROBERTS: Yes. Would the Premier have a word with Mr. Vardy? Yes. I think my friend for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) who first raised this new flower ill the Legislative soil could - 945

July 27, 1979 Tape 377 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, I will do that, so that any member then who wants,or group of members whc want to get together to review, he will ~~ovide th9 info~tion MR. :ROBERTS: available. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. STIRLING: MR. CRAIRMNf (Btrrr): MR. STIRLING: Sort of brief them on them on what .could be Brief them on the lihole thing. Yes, no problem. Thank you. The hon. member for 9onavista North. I would like to thank the Premier for that, because one of the things that I think will help us all do a better job is if ww can have that kind of rapport.

And eventually, I know, we will get to a question that the answer has to be "no•, but then that is acceptable. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. CRAI:RMl\N: MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you. Shall 303-0l carry? on motion 303-01 carried. on motion 02-01 through 02-02 carried. Shall 303-02-03 carry? Mr. Ch.ai=an , 0 3 • Maybe the Premier could just briefly tell us the substantial difference there in the consultant fees under Cabinet Secretariat? And that is just all I will say, Maybe a brief explanation will be okay. MR. CHAI:RMAN: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: YesJ I should have jumped to my feet in any case and sort of explained it rather than having to wait for somebody to ask me the question. The provision is made to enable Executive Council, Cabinet Secretariat to continue