Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Mqnday, March 5, 1913 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES0 M, RUSSELL Number 19

March 5, 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chatr. Tape no. 452 Paic 1 - MRW MR. SPEAKER: I would like to welcome to the galleries today thirty-three, Grade VI students from Curtis Elementary of St. John's, and their teacher, Mrs. Thoms. 1 understand that some parents are also with the children so I would indeed like to welcome you all here and trust that your visit is most interesting and indeed 1 welcome any other visitors in the galleries today as well. PETITIONS MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, 1 beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Castors River ~orth and Castors River South in the District of St. Barbe North. Sir, the essence or prayer of the petition is that the residents of Castors River North, Castors River South do not want to move out of those two particular communities. This petition, Sir, arises out of the fact that there seems to be some kind of confusion with respect to correspondence that the residents have received from the.

Federal Department of Public Works when they requested improvements to the fiHhinR facilities and ~1e wharf facilities in that community. Sir, the 1mprena1on lld: t with them fa that Ca11tor,1 Hlvcr South and Castors Rlvcr North HTe rrnndinR communitit"s, and l bcli<wc when the provincial ~overnm~nt were contncted in this respect, it wns su~ncsted that Castors River North and Castors River South were not sending communities. Sir, the petition is signed by thirty-eight resi.dents of these two small communities. Mr.

Speaker, I ask that this petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. On motion petition received. 1364

March 5, 1973 Tape 453 IB-1 NOTTCF. OF MOTIONS MR. FRED B. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce the following resolution:

WHEREAS there is proliferation of university structures and services in the province because of the continuing expansion of the Main University Campus, the Summer School on Main Campus, Summer Schools off Campus, Regular Academic Year Courses off Campus, and E.T.V. Courses off Campus; and

WHEREAS there will be continued operation and expansion of the Extension Service of the University, the Adult Education Service, the College of Fisheries and Navigntion, the College of Trades and Technology, and the Trades and Technical Schools; and WJJEREAS there will be Community and Regional Col l.el!,eA eAtnblif1hed in the province; and

WHEREAS there is a great need for sound planning, articulation and co­ ordination of all institutions of post-secondary education in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, NOW TIIEREFORE BE IT RESOLVEn that a Commission of Enquiry of six members he appointed to investignte into and make recommendations relating to the future direction of post-secondary education, so that all areas of the province will benefit to the maximum with a minimum of duplication and cost to the Province, and that the said Commission be required to report within three months of being established.

MR, SPEAKER: I accept the honourable members resolution. It appears to he in order. If it :IR not,I shall inform the House later in the afternoon. HON, C'.OROON nAWE: ('~INISTFR OF MANPOWER & INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask leave of the House to table the Industrial Inquiry Comm:lssion Report on safety conditions and labour management relations at the. F.RCO P] ant at Long Hnrbo11r. MR. SPEAKER: noe11 the honourable member have ]cave to table the report? (np,recd) 1365

March 5, 1973 Tape 453 IH-2 HON. T. ALEXANOER HICKMAN: (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills: A bill, "An Act To Make Certain Provisions Respecting The Reorganization Of The Covernment And The Public Service Of The Province And Respecting Matters Connected Therewith Or Arising Therefrom." A bill, "An Act Respecting Proceedings Against The Cro'lom," HON. llAROLn A COLLINS: (MTNISTF,R OF MUNI CJ PAL AFFAIRS ANO HOUSINr.): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will introduce: A bill, "An Act To Amend The St.

John's !lousing Corporation Act." IION. JOSEPH ROUSSEAU: (MTNTSTr:R OF nEHABILITATION i:. RECREATION): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will introduce; A bill, "An Act Respecting The Welfare Of Ner,lected Adults." HON. (',ORDON DAWE: (MINISTER OF MANPOWER & INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will introduce; A hill, "An Act Respacting The Protection Of Employees Wages." MR, EDWARD ROBERTS: (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): On notice of motions, I do not have a motion to p;ive hut I wonder if Your Honour can advise me on what appears to he a mistake on the Order Paper.

A motion offered by the gentleman from St. John's South has been given 13G6

March 5, 1973 Tapa 454 PK - 1 precedent over motionA atandinP, in the name of the honourable gentleman for Bell !Aland, the gentlemAn for White Rny South, both of which I bP-1:hwe werfl on the Order Peper before. T.he gentleman for St. John's South hos no precedent in thiA matter. !fR_:_SPF.AKF.R: I take it under advisement~ shall chanRe it on the ~ext Order Paper. If it 1• incorrect, I Are there any other notice~ of motionA, ANSWF.RS TO QUESTION~ HON, ll. COLLINS (.UNI_STER OF lnlNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): Mr. Speaker, I have an answer to Question No. 40,in the name of the honourable member for St.

Barbe North,on the Order Paper of February 26. HON. C. W, DOODY (MINISTER Of' INDUSTRIAL DEVF.I.OPMENT): Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question No, 104,in the name of the honourable member for White Bay South>on the Order Paper of March 5, 1973. Tabled. HON. T. /\. HIC KMAN : (MlNJStF.R OF J USTICE) : Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Que~tion No. 105 on today's Order Paper.asked by the honourable member for White Ray South, the question: "What is the number of journeys involved in puhlic business which he has made since January 18, 1972 to places outside of Canada Rhowing for each journey; (

a) the names of the countries visited," Boston in the United States of America. "(

b) the dates of the journey" September 20 to 21, 1973."(

c) the total cost to the government for hotel accotmnodation, meals, ground and air transportation, and other expenses?" $70.00. AN PON. MF.PBER: Inaudihle. - ------- l.!R_'._~_!_~_KMM~:.. "Whether or not any members of his staff accompanied or other puhlic servants accompanined him?"The answer iR no, with the result the- other three clo not apply. "(

e) the n11t11rc> of the r111hl ic businc>ss 11tt<'n<lro.,l on th<' journey?" Tt w:u1 t:hf' AmerJnm premiere of Howdymnn. MR. F'. n. HOl-!Jo:: Mr. ~pc-nkrr, J would 1 i l;r• to nclclrrsfl 11 cp1rstion to the honc,11r:ih]I' M1n1Htl'.!r of J1lr.hw:1yR, !1ir, T h11tf' to hr1.np; thJ~ mottcr up nr•.a-fn hut once ar,ain the Cre;.it Northern Peni.nflllln 111 r,hway is blocked, J wns 1367

?-larch 5, 1973 Tape 454 PK - 2 wondering if the m1.nister could infot'11l the House as to whether or not there has been any possihility of r,ettin~ some additional machinery, snow clearinR machinery on to the Great Northern Peninsula? HON·- J)R • .. T. - _FARREJ.J.~HNrnrnrt OF TRANSI'ORTATTON ANO COHMUNICATIONS) : Mr. Spcnker, you know on the Gn•nt Northern P<!ninBul.a rip,ht now heavy drifting over the weekend ha$ occurred agnin and our plows are work:lnr., all available plows in that area at the present moment. We are doing everything in our power to open all the roads there.

The plows are working, all available equipment is working. I will expect a report on this earlier in the day to see how conditions are at that time. MR. F. B. ROWE: A supplementary question, has the minister received any information respecting the fact that some snow clearinr, equipment is not in fact working and that also periods of breakdown are experienced on the coast? ~.!_AJ_!_!,Ll.: As I have explained already earlier last week, under the conditions that are prevailing on the l!est Const, Mr. Speaker, right now neither men nor mach:l.nes can stand up to it at the present time.

I cannot answer exactly the number of machines which may or may not he out of order right now but I will certainly undertake to obtain this information for him as soon as possible. MR. ~E~RY: Mr, Speaker, last week the honourable Premier undertook to get me certain i.nformation concerning tenants who live in apartments that comes under t.he jurisdiction of the St. John's Housing Corporation. I wonder if the Premier now haA that information? HON._ F. D. MOORES: (PREMIF.R)_: No, I do not, Hr. Speaker. MR. _ _!~F_IIRY :_ I wonder, Mr.

Spenker. if the Premier could indicnte when he will make the information available? MR._ ~!90RI~~..:. l will try and get it as quicJ.-.Jy as pos~:lble, Mr. Speaker. MR. N_l~II_RY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the 'Minister of 'Municipal 13€8

March 5, 1973 Tape 454 PK - 3 Affairs and Housing a question, Members may recall when we were doing supplementary supply that the minister Raid that he would table the copy of the Kostaszek Report on the Blackhead Road Urban Renewal Study last week. A week has now Rone by, Sir, and we have not gotten the report yet, We managed to drag one out of the Minister of Labour today. Would the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing indicate when he is going to table the Kostaszek Report? MR. COLLINS: Yes . Mr.

Speaker, I was hoping to have copies this aftenioon, but I can assure the honourable member they will be tabled tomorrow. MR. _!1-_9WE, F.~ Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the honourable Minister of Education, Sir, last week I asked the honourable minister if he could have an official of his department conduct an immediate survey of all school boards in the province in order to assess the conditions an<l difficulties being experienced in the operation of school buses in the province. He took the question as notice, Sir, I wonder if he has the answer yet? HON. G.

OTTEN_llEIMER (MI ISTf.R OF EDUCATION) : No, Mr. Speaker, I do not but J shall table it as soon as I do. I take it that the honourable r,entlf'man realizes that it is quite a comprehensive question and one wiAhes to ~ive a complete and accurate answer. MR. F. R. ROWE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, hns the honourablr minister started the survey, initiated the survey? MR. OTTENJlEU~~ Yes, the department certainly initiated an examination of service in the area 1.n<licated by the honourable gentleman. l-iR. WINSOR: --------- Mr.

Speaker, before we get into ~rder of the nay, on Friday afternoon when I d:lrected 11 question to the Min1.ster of Justice at that time ~in the absenc:c of the l'remicr, request1.n~ if he had received a request from the people of Fogo Island re the shortngc of certain food comrnod1 tics 1111<1 oil etc. I h,'1 lf've lh<! honour/\hlf' Premier hnn received " trlcr,ram from the .1ofnt c:011ndln of Fo110 l:,l1111d re']t1Niti.np, thnt r.ertnfn nct1.on he taken 13G9

March 5 • 1973 Tape 454 PK - 4 regarding the icebreaker. However, Mr. Speaker, I am very happy now to infom the Premier rather than vice-a~versa, that the icebreaker is due in the area this afternoon and that problem should be resolved, if it has good luck getting in there. MR. MOORF.S: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the honourable member answered his question and the wire was replied to this morning with that information to be reported as well.

ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Establish An Electoral Districts Boundaries Commission To Report Upon The Delimitation Of The Province Into Districts For Which Members Shall Be Returned To The House Of Assembly,'' read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, a bill, ''An Act To Amend The Le~islntive DiAahiU .tit>s Act,'' read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act Respectini The F.stahlishment And Operation Of Public Parks By The St. John's Municipal Council," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honour ah le Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Northern Labr11dor (Sod 111 Services And Rehnbi litation) Act," read a first time, ordered renti n second time on tomorrow. 1370

March 5, 1973 Tape No. 455 NM - 1 On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice A Bill, "An Act To Clarify The Manner In Which The Provisions Of The Statutes Amendment Act, 1971 And The Statutes Act. 1972 Are To Be Implemented," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice· A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Agreement Ratified. Confirmed And Adopted By And Set Forth In The

Schedule To The Commodore Mining Company Limited (Agreement) Act, 1968, And To Make Certain Statutory Provisions Relating To That Agreement," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, On motion of the honourable the Minister of Economic Development A Bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Agreement Made Between Newfoundland And Labrador Edison Company Limited With Shaheen Natural Resources Company, Inc. AB Intervenor And To Make Provision Respecting Other Matters Concerned With The Agreement," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the honourable the Minister of Mines, ARriculture and Resources A Bill, "An Act To Estahlish The Newfoundland Crop Insurance Ap;ency," read a first time, ' ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On mot:1.on of the honourable Minister of Finance A Bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Indenture Made P,ecween The Government, Newfoundland Forest ProductA Limited, Bowaters Canadian Corporation Limited, Bowaters Newfoundland Limited And Lundrigans Limited And An Agreement Between Government And Bowaters Newfoundland Limited And To Make Provision Respecting Matters Connected Therew:lth," read a first time, ordered read a second on tomorrow. 1371

:::J,. March 5, 1973 Tape No. 455 NM - 2 On motion of the honourable the Minister of Finance A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Stephenville Linerboard Mill (Agreement) Act, 1972," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, On motion of the honourable the Minister of Finance A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act," read a first time, ordered read a second t1me on tomorrow. Motion second reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Department Of Education And Youth Act," MR. OTTENIIF.IMER: Mr.

Speaker, this of course is one of a series of bills which the government has presented before the House dealing with the realignment of certain functions and in general restructuring. This particular bill is not one which makes any really radical changes,in my opinion, as most honourable members are aware. In 1968 and 1969, legislation was passed substantially reorganizinp, the Department of Education as a result of the Warren Commission Report and as a result of general dialogue and discussion on educational matters, structure, organization which resulted from the 11ublication of that report.

So some very major reor.p,anization or surgery was performed in 1968 and 1969 as T recall, The legislation w:is pmrned unanimously in the House I recall. It was. For that reason, the rc•structurinr.; wlth respect to this particular department is not radical. Essentially the name of the department would be ch:inged, from Edu ca ti on and Youth, to Education.

There wj 11 be provision for two assistant deputy ministers, one for general responsibility in vocation:il and technical area, one for general responsibility in academic or day school Rystcm, But T say ~cncrally,because I wish tn poJnt out tlint tlirr<- muut hr m111'!1 rnor1~ l!nii:on in co-ordination of tlu,De two aupectH 1,I dcvc•l.opment of our 1372

March 5, 1973 ·Tape No. 455 NM - 3 MR. OTTI.tillEIMF.R: human resource than perhaps has been in the p.1111t. Obvfomily the intent there 1• for a co-operative effort.

Another proviRion iB the inclusion of the College of Fisheries, Nnvi~ation, M11rine Engineering and Electronics which was since its creation administered through the Department of Economic Development but will now be administered and the liaison · will be with the nepartment of Education, I would say the other point of any importance would be that the youth and recrention activities would be transferred to a new d~partment, the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation. I should point out,:1 .n saying thil!I, that physical education as part of the curriculum within schools is not affected.

This is in the general area of community recreation which will now become the responsibility of a Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation, it does not affect the curriculur physknl education in our schools. Tho,ie Arc, I think, the bn11ic results which will come from the cnnctment of the hill.As I soy, it is not really very radfcnl hecnuse n p,rent dcnl of reorganization wns don~ with the approval of both sides of the Jlouse just a few years back, It changes the name, It makes provision for two assistant deputy ministers instead of one associate.

The College of Fished .es is included within the amhit of jurisdictf.on of the Department of Education, Youth and recreation activit:1 .es, in the community area not the school area, will become the function of the new department. MH. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, my colleagues and J see very Uttlc objection to this particular hill. The honournhle miniater ~unnests that most of the rcstructurinR nnd reorganization of that depurtmemt hncl been clone n few yenn1 nr.o, I think the iclea of hnv:lnR two nssi~tnnt deputy mfnisters instead of one associate dep"t:y l'linister., one re~ponsihle for voc11tional education and 1373

March 5, 1973 Tape No. 4,s NM - 4 one responsible for academic education,is certainly a p,ood idea and I commend the minister for bringing in this particular amendment. I also

March 5, 1973 Tape 456 JM - l think, Sir, that the inclusion of the Colle~e of Fisheries and Navigation is certainly a sensible idea,includin1 it within the nepartment of Education. Sir, renlly there is ver.y little chan~e here. They have> dropped the youth and recreation

section except for physical education as it pertains to a part of the curriculum of the schools. I would lilre the minister when he p,ets an opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to exnlain the purpose and the si~nifance of section (13) on pap,e seven, that is sections 36(1)a and b. There is a ch~nge there and I would like when the hon. minister gets an opportunity if he would explain th~ significance and the purpose of these couole of changes Sir, other than that I can see very little to ob.1 ect to in this particulnr hill And I r.ive it full support. MR. f.'PF.AKF.R: Tf th(' hon. minister spenk, now he closes the debate.

MR. OTTENIIEIMT\R: Mr. SpC'ltker, T am not sure if the hon. Minister of Munic:!pnl Affairs 1s rising to 11pcak or risin~ to Ait, MR. COLLT.NS: (Im111clihlC'). MR. OTTENllETMFR: A ve>ry fortun~te m1m. Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. memher for St. llarhc North for his views.

I also feel that this appronch "'ith two ;issistant de>puty ministers will assist in giving more specinlizerl attention where it is necessary, With the Coller.e of F:lshe>ries c:01'1:l.np under the ambit of the department, I think that will nnsist ns as wc>ll in deve>lop1nr. a co-ordinntcd approach to, jf you wish, 1111111:m re-sourer rl c>vrl opmen t, becan!le the Collep .t• of 17.i sher1 Nl 11nrl tlw otlH'r :!n11L1 tut :lonn which were· fonnrr1y w1 th the J)pp;irtmC?nt of E<lucnt:!on,etill nrP, nnd the College of Trndcs and Technoloiy, District Vocnt i.onn 1 School 11, thr•y n 11 clt•n l with Mnnpower Rtudt'nt,; ns we 11 as the studrntH t~io nrc brnc-fjtin~ from prov1ncinl allownnccs.

J1eforr. the l!ous(' mc>t actually t.hP. hon. r,entlC'man wns ldnti enou~h to indicate to tnf' h:1s interest in

section 13 of the hill which 1375

March 5, 1973 Tape 456 when passecl woulcl repeal Rcction 36 of the fonner lt•r,hlation ancl T have the former lep;islation here. Jt ie :fc!P.ntiRl cxct•pt 4.(b), in other words the former ler,isletion has a 36(1) ancl (2) and this one will have a l(

a) and (

b) and 2 and done that wav because of the inclusion of (b). (b) :fA the only new thing adrled,which states that if an action is to be taken ar;ainst nn officer, servant or agent of the department,where previously one condition only had to JM - 2 be fulfillecl and that is the clelivery to him of notice, now there is a second condition and that :Is for the purpose only of providing the government and the minister with information that similar notice would also P,o to the Department of Education. So that is the only chanp,e there.Otherwise it is totally the same in substance, I move second reaclinr,.

On motion, bill read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the whole House presently, by leave. MR :. HICKMA.~: Mr. Speaker, mny I have leave of the House to p,ive a notice that I omitted to gi~e at the time for notice? This notice is on behalf of the hon. the 'Minister of Finance. 'That I will on tomorrow ask the House to resolve itself into a committee of the whole to comlider certain Resolutions for the> Grnnting of Interim Supply to Her Mc1jesty. Motion, second rc>ncllnr, of n b:111, "An Act RP!lpectinr, Tennncics Of Residentinl J'rem:lees." MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Spcnkcr, tlw 1.er,1s1 ntion p,overninr lL·nant lnndlorc1 relnt:lons up to the present t:ime are as follows: The Juc1icature Act, 1952: the Rent Restrictions /\ct, ]'152: the Rc-nt ReHtrlc:tfons /\mendnent Act, 1954, and thf' Tcn;mts Recovery of Processton Act, 1952. This le~islation, Mr. S!)eaker, that we hi:ive presently is out of tune with the times. The present Rent Restrictions Act was anrl sti] 1 is a hi~hly unsui tablr set of rules that henefit neither the lnncllortl nor the tenant. The bill I 1376

March s. 1~73 Tape 456 JM - 3 •m dottcrlbln~ todAy rrprr~~nt" n y~nr or more of atudy and ronnultation by my offich.l11 with th,i pMp.lo to whom the leAhllltion will covP.r nrunely thr. landlord 11ncl the' t<'nnnt". It ii probnhly ono o, th~ bC!11t J'l:11.1ce11 of' lt'ithlntinn fn Mnrth Amciric11., Cortdnl.y 11omr cit the 111.1ct.1ona in it, Mr. SJ'leakor, T nm not even aure if they are covered in the le~islation in other jurisrlictions. The bill, !1r. Speaker, will ~ive rights which were formerly denied to tenants.

My officials estimate that fifty per cent of our urban people live in rented nropcrties, The sum fir,ures, Mr. Speaker, are very intcrestinr and noint out the neerl for the kind of legislation that I have the pleasure and privilcr,e to introduce today. At the e.nd of 1971 there were 2,772 rental units in housin~ complexes in St. John's, Apartments in private homes in St. John's rose to 8,650 in 1971. There have been increases in the number of apartments both in the public and private sectors since. Mr.

Speaker, it is precisely because this bill touches the very lives of so many of our people that the full application of the collective wisdom of this House is required. The bill, ?Ir. Speaker, is designed to give the maxir.mm protection to both the landlord and the tenant. It defines sets of ohlirat:fons applicah] e to hath parties. In more specific terms the act provides for the followinr, functions: rent rer,ulation is governed by provisos concerning notice.

The landlord must r,:lve a tenant three months not-Jee of rent increasc.>s and the tenant may have recourse to bo<lies estahlishen by the- bill if he wish to conteRt the increase. The boarrls established will rule on the tenants application thus rcr,ulatfnr. the rents. The matter of security deposit, Mr. Speaker, which has been a contentious issue for quite a lonr, time iR covered in this hill. It provides thnt the deposits may not exceed fifty per cent of the monthly rental.

IntereRt in the amount of six per cc-nt 11c-r nnnum must be p,1irl on all cl<'posits nnd the cleposfts of c-oursl' mur;t he l,;c-pt in trust hy the lan1llord nml at the tet111in:1tion 1377

March 5, 1973 T11pc 456 of any tc>n11ncy the dc>posj l: must with int«!rest be ret11rnecl to tht- tennnt unless th~ landlord c11n ehow .1ust c.i.nr.«\ to •retain the deposit, in such instances where damai;:e is visable or where a l.Andlord wishes to make a claim on account of damages. The termination process of the tenancy is also covered, Mr. Sneaker. The landlorcl must ~ive three months notice to quit while the tenant must rive one months notice. These notices must be iiven in writing. The matter of suhletting is also covered in the bill.

A tenant shouJ rt hnvr. the right to sublet and the l andlorcl may not withhold his connc>nt w1thont a .1111:;t re.ison or a just cause. A matter of great concern,Mr.Speaker, in recent years, especially since the comin~ into l,einr, of apnrtme>nt buildinr., is the mattrr of locl~ing devices which nre very often used as a means to evict tt•nant!'I from apartmen ;ts. Thi.s hi 11 prf"vents frnch acti .om; on the part of the landlord. In the past, Mr. Speaker, the landlord had only to chanr.e the lock on a doo.r when the tenant went to work or went out. The tenant came back to finrl that 1378

March S, 1973 Mr, Hickey. Tape no. 457 Page 1 - MRW' they could not get into their apartment despite the fact that their peraonH1 belonp,lnr.n and furniture, ite1118 of thi1 kind were there. An eviction of a certain type waa forced on a tenant by use of this moat unjust and unreasonable act. This can no longer be done and the provisions are set out in this bill to prevent it. A matter of interest to members of the House particularly Mr. Speaker and all other people seeking elected office, ia that there ia a

section in the bill which provides for the entrance,on the part of the ]andlord,of candidates in elections to enter upon the property, The tennnt, however, does have the right to prevent any such candidate 'from going any further than in the building, in the case of ,m apartment building. At leant the tenants rights are protected in this particulnr .:ires. Mr. Speaker, the privacy of the tenant from the landlord is also assured in the bill.

A landlord may enter only during daylight hours, with the consent of the tenant, A landlord has an obligation to repair premises where necessary and the tenant has a recourse to a third party to assure his rights under this clause, The tenant must be provided with a written copy of the lease or any such agreement in the place of a lease, otherwise the tenant is not required to pay the rent. Mr.

Speaker, retaliatory evictions are covered in this bill and this is probably another very important, possibly one of the most important sections a~ it applies to this city in particular, In the past, if a tenant complained about the conditions un,ter which he or she were living, comp]aincd about any increase in rents, the landlord r,ave notice to the tenant and considered the tenant an undesirable, tenant, issued notice either for the purpose solely to increase rents or to attract someone to the property who would accept whatever treatment they were given. In other words, Mr.

Speaker, any person who made a legitimate complaint to a 1379

March 5, 1973 Tape no, 457 Page 2 Mr. Hickey. landlord in the past, a complaint within rea,rnn, be it to repair, to provide normal services or indeed complained about au increase in rc•nt, in too many instances this person was classed by the land] ore! as nn undesirt1ble and subsequently was issued notice to quit. Mr. Speaker, wJth regard to that particular clause, this day has not come too soon, in fact this kind of legislation is long overdue, The bill provides for the establishment of regional tenancies boards to rule on application of landlords and tenants and this is provided in the bill.

It is the intention, Mr. Speaker, to set up boards in at least five areas of the province where the same service and hopefully the same good service would be available to all our people and not served by one board which is the case at the moment under the present Rent Restrictions Act. Too often, Mr. Spe1;1ker, it is physicaJly impossible for the board to give any kind of decent service to the r,eneral public. TI1e people in Labrador, Mr. Speaker, in particular, who are so far removed from St. ·John's, presently their onlv recourse is to make a complaint to the Rent Control Board.

That board already bogr,c<l down with requests have to travel to Labrador to hear the case. There have been instances, Mr. Spe·aker, where months and months have r;one by w:lthout a <lecis:lon. We have experienced it juAt in the past month, ouch a Aituation. The clause in the bill removes t.hnt situation by prov:lrl1nr, for the cstnbliAhment of bonrds in areas of the prov:lnce.wh1.ch w:11 I he do1w. Mr..

Spenker, I have outJ Lne<l some of the· mt11or provisions of the bill, which this \louse will <ll'lrnte. lt ,10uld be r~ther nnive of me to sur,gcst or to pretend that there is no room for improvement in the present legislation. There arc a number of areas which are not covered in the bil 1. TI1ey nre not covered for obvious reasons. We nre taking a bol <l step as it iR, :l.n p,o:1.np, fro111 the pn~sent ler,.lalation to the one I am 1380

March 5, 1973 Tape no. 457 Page 3 introducing today. There will be room for improvement in this bill but we need eom~ time, we need some experience in the bill that I am introducing today. The clear-cut indication for the need of this kind of legislation, Mr. Speaker, is the recent application of Omega Investments for a rent increase. Presently the legislation is such that a rental increase is given to the tenants and they can do little or nothing about it until the board gets the time to hear the case and make a decision as to whether or not the increase is a just one or not or whether it is justified.

In that particular instance, Mr, Speaker, I think it is worthy to mention today that because of the new approach to landlord/tenant relations,of this government particularly and my own officials, an agreement had been reached between Omega Investments and the Tenants Association,on Friday of last week,and aereed and sir,ned - you might say settled outside of the board, although the board had made a decision and I, as minister, had passed it on. Th.ere were a number of other problems which were involved.

I am happy and proud to say that we have set a precedent in brJ.nging the landlord and the tenants association together in that an agreement had been reached. I do not hestitate at this time to commend Omega Investments for their interest in the entire situation with rcr,ard to their apartment buildings and their willingness to meet with the Tenants Association and to iron out All agreement wherein they are r,oinr, to provj de adcqua.te services, ma:f.ntnin the buildings and certainly asslst the Tenants Association to continue to function. Th:f.a, in my op:fnion, is a very worthwhile precedent, Mr.

Speaker • As I indicated earlier, in too many lnstances a landlord, rather than encourage his tenants to care for his property or rather than encourage the kind of an association, such as a tenants am1ociation, usually in the past the tenants were met with a notice to quit whenever they attempted to r,et wh.it they considered their rights. In too many instances, Mr. Speaker, 1381

Mar.ch 5, 1973 Tape no. 457 Page 4 Mr, Hickey, the llmdlord looked upon this, this type of person, as a trouble maker. Such a land .I ord, Mr. Speaker, can only be cl 1u1sed or almost classed as being blind to what goes on about him. The landlord 1382

March 5, 1973, Tape 458, Page 1 -- apb stands to benefit more by a tenants association or by a tenant who is interested in the property that he or she is renting than possibly anybody rh1e. How can a landlord expect a tent1nt to have regard .and to cnrl' for h1,. proprrty if the- l11ncllord doe• not •"t thci axamplc! hy acl:nowlr.rl~:lnf( thnt the tenant h11.!1 certain r:f.r,hts which hould be preserv<'d and which should be recoi;?ni:;,;cd1 nr.

Speakn, there is a situation existing in thiA city today i,articul nrl y which cnnnot be allowed to continue nnd :I. t is one of the. reasons why I am very proud today to :Introduce th1s lr.11::lslat:l.on, because this will provide the opportunity for my department, for this govermnet to do something about a situation which has been allowed to continue for much too lonp.. I refer particularly to slum landlords and to landlords (I make no apology, ~r. Speaker, for making this remark) who fleece, literally fleece some of our tenants and who completely disregard even the most basic right of a tenant.

Some of the properties that our people are living in in this city for which they arc- required to pay high rents, most unreasonable rents :In comparison with the property they are liv:lnp, in and :In some :Instances, Mr. Speaker, too many instances, this rovernment is forced to pay such rents, whc-rc landlords hold up a department of this government na~ely; the Department of Social Services, literally hold them up by demandinp, high rents because of the acute hous:f.ng shortage. The tenant, the rights of the tenant have been completely ir;nored. It is a case, Mr.

Speaker, ~1ere the landlord will just close in on a situation and get rich quickly nt the expense, not only of the- tenant, Nr. Speaker, hut in tl1e case whc-rc a department of government :Is involved, at the expense of the- tnxp,1yrrs of this province. Th1R rovc-rnmc-nt, Mr. Spenkrr, reconnf,:c-n this. This iA _1ust nnothrr indlr· .:ition of thr ldnd of lrf'.ialntJon thnt lh1e rovc-rnment offrrs to the prople or thin province. An I enid enrller, :It ie ycnrs nnd years late. This l<.in<l of lcrfolc1tion Ahould have come before this llousf' a Jong, Jon~ time nr;o.

My only advice to certain landlords in this province, particularly in this city, is that the- day when they completely disrer;arded

Fcsl,nrn ry S, 1971, 1'npC" t, ',R, Pnp.i, 1 -- 11r,b or who have reason to use this le~islation. It should also be pointed out, 'Mr. Speaker, that when the boards are set up throughout the province, they will be under the jurisdiction of this department and the efforts will be co-ordinated by my department in St. John's. It should also be mentioned that this ler,islation, of courRc, when it passes is only as zood as the people make it. In this connection, ~r. Speaker, we do not intend to just leave it on the books without our people hcinr. aware of the areas in which they are protected. There is a

section in this bill wh:f.ch inidcates that people who are renting apartment complexes must post certain sections of I this ler,is]ation in a conspicuou s place so that the tenants arc aware. We intend, ~r. SpN1ker, to do a public relations _1oh on this l 1!p,isla tion to make our people aware so that when they have any cause for complaint, they have any reason to complain, they will know how to go about it and what sections will cover them and what they can hope for. Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of pleasure that I move second reading of this bill. !'!?::. .¥._-!!._:,!{_9~IB :_ Mr.

Speaker, first of all let me commend the honourable minister for hrinp:inr, this lep,islation in at this time. It is the sPcond tim<' the hf] 1 in subs tant:1 .ally the same form hfls been before this Jlouse.

Lni::t year I helicve it wns bill (No.71) and at that time I mad(• a few note's on the hill, iio I hope when I em goinp, through :ft I am not too far out of line, althour,h I have tried to take into account,from a cursory reading in the last day or so, some of the chanr,es which have cor.ie about in thP present hi l.l. before the House, bill (No. 21 ), I believe somr. chanres which took place I bel:feve as a direct result or nt least partially r1s a d:lrect result of a conference wh:lch was held last sumnwr or Cflrly lnst fnll w:1.th tenants and ]A.ndlord11 in the provinrr. Thin hill, r1r.

Sprnh•r, is p,ood :In pr.Jncip]e nnd ccrtninly we linvc- little- or no qunrrrl ,,: Ith thr, prov1s:lonfl contninrcl :In thr. b:111. As \/1' )",o I. hon,p,h now :I 11 L h J n d r,l,11 l:c on 11econd T.'C'ncl 1 np, nncl when we come to Lh1~ cn mmitt,.,. nt11/'. <' of thr hill, we• nhn]] ht'. m:iklnp crrtnin c·omrncntn, 1"'8,. . .) J

March 5, 1973, Tape 458, Pap,e 4 -- apb sus;gentiom1 for improvement which the minister mny or mny not wiah to incorporate into th~ finnl hill. lie is rir,ht when he say that you have to start somewhere. You cannot cover every eventuality, but we believe that there are one or two thinr,s which miRht be incorporated into this bill at this tim~ 1386

March 5, 1973 Tape 459 and of course it is for the minister ot make up his mind on that and perhaps we might have an amendment or two offered by one of his colleagues or by this side of the House when the bill goes through committee of the whole House. 18-1 This bill, Sir,would replace what amounts to the only existing legislation in the province governing rental accommodations, wh:lch was the Rent Pestrict1ons Act.

The Rent Restrictions Act was a carry over - it could not be called anything but that - merely a carry over from emergency controls legislation which were,of necessity, adopted during the second world war to take care, I believe - I was not to old at that time - of the crisis in rental accommodation owing to the influx of serv:l .cemen and that sort of thing. It was hopelessly outdated the day the war ended but it was carried on in the books and very little nror,rcss was mnde in the whole area of tenants and landlords lcr,:lslat:lon from that time.

I do not blame too much the previous a~ministration for that because it is really only 1n the last few years, two or three ye11.rs perhaps, that there has been a real national outcry in Canada and 'throughout the States :mr1 throughout other pla~es in the world for some really r,ood r.ocial J cr,islation in the area ·of landlord and tenant. Thnt: net nnyw,'1y, Mr. Spr>nkcr, the Rent Rentriction11 Act,wss dc,iip,ned tn r.<'t maY.lmum r<'ntalR or protect maximum rent:ils and the right of Lrn,11 orcls to 1'.:dn ocnq,;incy under spec:! fi c con di tiom1.

There w/lf1 no lilw which RflC'clfir11lly dcnlt with the rir,htR of lnndlorcl ancl tt?nantR out 1; 1.<lr thnt. Thi r: l.nndlorr1 nnd l'cnRnt Act will set forth the l11w which nprllrR to hnth the rir,htA 11ncl oblignt:lons of the landlord And tenants. Previously the statute/! ond the common law did not rccognize,rc:tlly recoRn1.ze tenants havinp, definable legal right,; . There were common lnw rules certainly which lawyers could resort to but they "'ere pretty ill-defined and the legal rir,hts of tenants were very ill-<lefined. 1387

March 5, 1973 Jll-2 Of course, when you have that kind of a situation, the omission of rules and where you have ill-defined rules,it can only favour the landlord, ~t cannot favour the tenants~cspecially when the landlord is perhaps more affluent, more articulate, better organized than your average tenant. So, of necessity the legislation and the common laws rules can do nothing really but favour by omission or by ill-definition the rights of landlords. Now, as I mentioned,the Landlord and Tenant Act or this hill which we hnve before us now, Mr.

Speaker, follows on the heels of related ler,islation passed recently in other provi.nces of Canada. The principal features of our Newfoundland bill are, I believe, identical to those in the Nova Scotia Act and have certain characteristics and provisions which are similiar to those found in Manitoba, B.C., Ontario and Alberta but there are - and this is to the minister's credit - there are significant differences from some of these provinces that I have mentioned.

For example; Ontario, at least last year, I do not know if they have changed it now hut last year Ontario had no provisions, I believe, to regulate rental rates and rental increases. I do not know if they have changed that now. They prohably have. This bill which the minister has brought in does have some sort of regulation for rental increase. Sir, ns I mentioned earlier, the reform of legislation r,overn:lng rental accommodation can he traced significantly, I think, to the national rifle and influence of various voluntary tenant organizations.

Also, of course, many of the basic concepts in this bill and in other bills and in other acts 1n other provinces of Canada were proposed in the report of the Ontario Law Reform Commission. I have made these points, Mr. Speaker, not to detract from anything the minister has done because of course he has taken the initiative and he hl1s clone r:;omethinp, :In this province but we should rcnl 1 ze tlo.,t thcrll hnv,, 1,N•n l,nn I c- ntc-p,; m:1dr, 11trp11 r"n.rnrcl m11cle l,y otlwr provf11c"t1 of' C:11111nl11 ,111d th11t tld11 r,rov1nr1, !1-1 now folJ,,,1111~

March 5, 1973 Tape 459 IB-3 on the heels of that. Although the minister should be co11111ended and congratulated for brinr,1ng that in, let us not think that we are now in the vanp,uard of legislation in Canada by any means. We are certainly not in the vanguard. We are not pioneers in this regard. We are as usual - being prohably of necessity again - we usually follow along after the bigger provinces who have better facilities for m3king basic research into this type of a problem.

I have no hesitation in sayinr, that this bill should be conaidered one of the proRrces1ve pieces of lep,ialation in Ncwfouncilnnd 11lthouv,h it w1ll remain to he seen whether it h p,oing to he - I hel:fevc the 'lUOte is - "the moat enlightened piece of ]eg1'lnt1on 1n al 1 Canada" ns the Minister of Municipal Affairs said Rome momenta age. T think there is net"d for improvement and ff '.1/f .~ ~ I think some of the provinces of Canada have ~one a little further than we have here, 1n settinp, out, setting the stage ' and setting out basic rights and responsibilities. Perhaps we can follow suit there as well.

Perhaps our position could best be summed up by Rayin11:, now that the minister has seized the hull by the horns and has brour,ht thi11 into the llouse,thnt as good as the leginlation iR,it perhaps does not go far enough. Several criticisms made in a study by the Canadian Council on Social Development ,for instnnce hack in 1971, are not incorporatrrl into this bill and I w11l mention one or two of those as I go along. However, any criticisms that we have on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, should be taken as constructive criticisms.

We think the bill in principle is a good one but there are certain things which we think could be improved. There nre certain thinl!,'- left out which should have been 1mi,roved now that the mini11tor has this opportunity for wholesale restructuring of rcmt:il 11cco1nmodntfon leg111l11ti.on. The prlncfp],, provis1onR of thia b:111, .... tabled l,y the minister, are llR fo11owfl: 1389

March S, 1973 Tape 459 IB-4 In all leases now, that landlords and tenants enter into, there are certain statutory conditions or general rights and oblir,ntions on both part, of landlords and tenants. There is requirement,11s the minister has said, thC! requirement for considerable notice :In writing by a landlord of proposed rental increases.

There is the requirement for generous and stipulated periods of notice by the tenant of an intention to vacate premises and for generally longer periods,as it should be, of notice by a landlord of an intention to terminate a tenancy unless the lease gives a longer period which the landlord must follow before terminating the lease.

There is,as the minister has mentioned, the creation of a Residential Tenancies Board on a regional basis which I think is probably a good thing although there should be some provision, I believe,for these boards to stay in close touch with each other so that there is not too much of a disparity between decisions made by the boards, These boards can review rents and :lnvest:l~ate other landlord and tenant matters and of course, it is subject to an appeal to the courts,which :Is a good thing. J notice that the minister does not restrict it to the law or mixed fact in law.

I believe there is a general appeal of a decision or from a decision of this board to a judge of the Supreme Court and then an appeal to the Court of Appeal,if need be. There is also a 11.mitation of amounts of security deposits that can be held by the landlord and sets out rules govern:lnr; the use nnd thl:' refund of th1R security deposi.t wh:lch wns a defect :In our previous legislation.

There is of course a requirement that the landlord supply the tenant wJth r.opic>H of th!:' act nnd c:op1('S of thP Pxccut(',;1 ll'nsl', Now T wl11 hnw• ,:,nm!'thfnf,! ~lF>c:i tn 11,:,y nl,011l th:il lntcir 1111 t,1,1 :H• it 11tan<ls now, Mr, fl1wakc-,r, 1 think Ll111t that. provi1don ffl UHtdt:flfl as it is worded in the act lmd I w:111 have a sugr,estion for the min1.ster 1390

March 5 • 1973 Tape 459 IJl-5 in my further remarks. Sir, one or two criticisms and comments I think that can be made of the bill at this stage; The minister and the government have accepted the provisions of an Nova Scotia Act by and large and other recent provincial legislation without incorporating changes ae a result of reviews of the practical effectiveness and experience under the operation of these acts. Perha~s the minister can answer that comment when he rises to close the debate.

I wonder how much work his officale have done in the past few months,for example, subsequent to the original introduction of the bill 1.nto this House? How much work they have done in communicatf.ng with oth~r provinces of Canada to see how these acts are workf.n~ out in those jurisdictions? I am sure that in a period of a year or two that they have been in effect in other jurisdictions, perhaps there are some fundamental improvement which can be made in thf.s present bill and 1 would like the minister to give. us some assurance along those lines because we should not operate 1391

March 5, 1973 Tape No. 460 NM - l in a vacuum here in Newfoundland. We should derive ns much benefit from experiences of other provinces as we can. Perhaps the minister can assure us that they have been in constant contact throughout Canada and I hope he can. Now the bill apparently does not apply to public housinp, units,by specific exclusion.

Section (5) of the bill says: 'Where any provisions-of this Act conflict with any of the provisions of a lease p,ranted to a tenant of residential premises that are administered by or for the Government of Canada or a province or a municipality or any ar,ency thereof developed and financed under the National Housing Act; or any predecessor or successor, the provisions of the lease shall prevail." The provisions of the lease shall prevail as against the provisions of this Act. Well that may be all right, I do not know, Mr. Speaker. I would like to hear some further comment by the minister on that point.

I do not know why people who are living in public housing should be discriminated ugainst in that regard. I believe we are falling in the same trap here as the previous administration fell into with regard to the taxation of publicly owned property, properties like Holiday Inn.for example, some harebrain.,d notion that because it is publicly owned, therefore for some reason or other it should not be subject to the same rules and re!!:ulations as privately owned premises. I do not follow that nrr,ument myself. I m·ver did follow it. I do not follow it now.

I do not follow it in respect to taxation and I do not follow it in respect of publ:fcly owned housing, subsidized rentnl housing. I think that perhaps there :IIJ room for nomc- :Input into pubHc hou,dnR n11 n rn,ml t or prov1!1:lon,i in Huch a bHl as tht11 on~ before thr. llom1e. Jlut the min:1.Rter might hnvc some good reasons for that. I realize that it is subsiui?.ed rental housing, I realize that 13~2

March 5, 1973 Tape No. 460 NM - 2 and thRt there is public money being spent. But perhaps there 18 room for TPRulnt.ion th~re 1111 wall, Perhsp1 tho boArd, thf' Re111d,.nt111l TPnnncti-11 l\onrd ahould have 110111• 1ay ovar rent paid or increases in rent there aa well, But the minister might have some r,ood reason for that. Also I would like the minister,if he can, to give us some indication as to whether this act covers other publicly owned rental accommodation, for example the St, John's Housing Corporation, Is it covered by this act?

What about residences at the university, for example, which are really in the nature of apartments rather than boardin~ houses perhaps.? Anyway he may be able to give us some idea as to whether this bill covers that sort of thing. Whnt about persons livin~ in Armed Forces _ housinp; units ?For example, I believe there are some in Gander, thP. ministr.r can P,ivc us some idea about that, We had a recent altercation between a member of the Armed Forces and the Town Council of Gander concerning some problems which exist there, Does this bill cover people in that type of housinP,? If not, why not?

Again perhaps the minister had some r,ood reason for it beside the fact that again they are owned by the Crown, which in my estimation is not a valid reason per se, unless there are other considerations in addition to that, What nbout homes for the aged,for example, where in 11ome CflRes vr.ry hjr,h rent" nre paid. Some people ac the Hoyles Home, for example, a lot of p~ople nt the Hoyl~a Home, several people in any evC'nt do not hnve their rents paid by the Department of Welfare or under any other aP,reement administered by the government and are payinP, out large sums of money.

How much do they pay out. for example? $6()0 in some cases. Are they to have their rents regulated by this act, or this proposed act?. Perhaps the minister 13D3

March 5, 1973 Tape No, 460 NM - 3 can give us some ideas on that. Again I think that there is room for that type of rental accommodation to be incorporated under this type of a bill. Also, Mr. Speaker, the effectiveness of this bill will depend to a large extent on the evolution of the Residential Tenancies Board, there is no doubt ahout that. As the minister himself said, it will depend on the people involved and the good will and effort which they put into it. These boards are given a great responsibility and indeed considerable latitude under the act.

The question that we can ask of course is,how are these boards going to tackle this job? Hopefully the individuals appointed will be appointed on some kind of a qualification basis. I will not get into the old accussation of partisan politicians being appointed to lucrative or fairly lucrative positions in such boards as this.

But I do think that the minister should assure the House that any appointments made to these types of boards will be made on the basis of qualifications and that the individuals appointed will be a competent and ageressive persons who are not afraid of any vested interests, large, wealthy affluent,powerful landlords, for example,and that they will r,o at their job with a vengeance and with a view to seeing thnt justice anrl equity prevails, Hopefully the boards will not become an almost useless instrument like the hoard under the Rent Restrictions Act whicl! developed all kinds of backlogs and which found itself, not because of any deficit in capability in the people concerned, found itself hamstrung and could not very well proceed to do what was right in many situations.

Hopefully the government will make_ some provision, Mr. Speaker, for these boards to have some administrative machinery, some professional staff that can do a lot of the groundwork for these boards, so th~t we do not have the aituation where a board of several members, who really 1394

March 5, 1973 Tape No. 460 NM - 4 do not have any background in a particular case, find the111Selvee coming in for an hour's meeting or a day's ~eeting and confronted with a very awkward situation and forced to make decisions on the spur of the moment without really having all the necessary background information. Also, another point, Mr. Speaker, which should be made.

Although the ac~ gives the board the powers to provide and disseminate information concerning rental practices, rights and remedies, yet the real onus still rests on the tenants to apprize themselves of the legal obligations and rights, particularly when he is a prospective tenant about to enter into a contractual arrangement, a lease with a landlord. Therefore, and this leads back to the point I have nlready made, perhaps some Bart of a support system, some administrativ~ machinery with appropriate government direction and funding are needed.

Some public relations, as the minister mentioned, some public relations are needed,well before the act comes into effect. I guess the act will come into effect now, There is no provision for proclamation?· Ye-s, a dav to be proclaimed by the Lieutenant ·Governor-in-Council. There is a provision for proclamation. So the ministPr should make sure, as he has nlready indicnt<'d hr. will do, sliouJd make sure th.it there is adequAte puhlid ty r, ·Jv('n to all of this so th11t l andlorde and tenantB do know whnt their dr,hts and obligations arc. On this part:!cular po:!nt, Mr. Spc;1ker, you could probahly re-for to

section 6 (1) of the bill wld ch states thnt "landlords shall not, after the cominr, into force of this act, r,rant the lease or poRsess:!on or occupancy of rcsidentiaJ premises to a tenant unless he has, without cost to the terl:mt, provided the tenant with a copy or reproduction of this act. The penalty for not doing that is in 6 (3)_, "where a landlord fails to provide a copy or reproduction of thia act in 1 n 9r· .) . .)

March 5, 1973 Tnpe 461 PK - l avera~e t~nant ha8 not too much notion as to ~hat exactly that provi~ion in doinr, for him~ nor would your Qverage l11ndlord. I think that the obllr.Atfon., ri,ht• 11nd rMron•lhiliti•• ehould bo oet out in an official fashion by " hrochurt'! printed hy the df!lpartment concern"'d .and aupplie,d to landlords on demand \.11th a leF,al oblir,ation on the landlord to make sure that each of hi~ tcnnntR receives n copy of Buch a brochure in order to mnke c~rtnin that they arc r,etting a considered opinion &8 to the me8ning of thie: act. There is no douht.

SJr, that the net places or the bill before the House places a heavier burden on landlorda,eepecially on those uith units which are below standard or which are sort of borderline, hovering on the borderline of whether they are standard or below standard. These landlords must bring nccommodations up to health and safety standards equally.to quote the act; 1 a good etntc of repair and fit for habitation."' Now that is a good provinion.

But the problem "1hi.ch ariflP.!'J and one which the minister hn.s already put hie finr,er on but wld ch he did not go into, I would like to see him go into this problem, espedally with his experience as Minister of Welfare. The problem thnt arisc!'J is this; what in fact trill be the alternative accommodation for personn ~ho nre evicted from substandard homes. not evicted necessarily but are forced to leave suhstandard homes becau~e the landlord cannot, has not or will not hrine these accommodations up to good,decent standards?

Arc '°''e now to he confronted in the future,as w-e have; more in the future than we hnvc in the. past, are we to be confronted ~1th the situation of welfare cli(>nts, for exanplc, occupyinp; motels and this eort of thfnJ:? Hopefully not. At n huge expense to the puhlicinot that they nhrmlc1 nnt he ent1rl<"rl to motl'l accommodst:lon but the.re mw;t he some decent cornprn-mint" :fn hctucr.n t.hc-r~. Hr. Spcnk~r.

The prohlE"m can he Vf'ry Aimply atatr<l .• lf you force landlor<lA to do somcth:lnr, ,.,,Jtfch they nre not rrr.rnrc<t to do either ,hC!cauRe there hi no return on their inve.Rtrncnt, thrm they ~lll not carry on th!! accommodation which they presently hnve. People who are preRcntly liv1.np in had 1 hubstandard 1387

March 5, 197'.l Tape 461 PK - 2 accommodat:l.on are left with no place whatsoever to r,o. I would subm:l.t that,aa had as the f:1.rst case I put is, it is probably better than having no place at all. I do not know what the situation is there. There is obviously a great need on the part of the government, the federal government, the provi.ncial government and municipal government to make certain as a result of th:1.e act com:lng :Into operation we do not see that kind of a situation happening. I clo not know what the answer iB.

T he minister will prohahly give us some of hie opinions when he rises to close the debate. But maybe the landlords.

I have no sympathy for slum landlords, but perhaps landlords, slum or otherwise, should be given some reasonable time, I do not know if the minister has considered this, some reasonahle t:lme to implement these changes and perhaps the minister of the provincial government should approach CMllC and the federal government to make sure that some financial assistance is available to enable such landlords or any landlords for that matter to carry out necessary repa:lrs and improvements with the help of CMHC funds. I think that might be part of the answer to the prohlem but it is go:ln11, to be a real problem.

Something similar to the problem faced hy corporations who are forced to put in improvements with regard to pollution control and find themselves in the situation that if they follow the letter of the law, the simple economics of the situation will not allow them to put in the pollution control,they have to close down.

Therefore, of course, the federal government have made certain that there are some delays in the timetable, schedules and this sort of thing and in some cases give substantial help to industries in order to BUt in pollution controls The same sort of thing ohta:lns here, for somebody to do something which is not economic ,and then they w:1,11 not provide it at all ,as bad as it might have heen. Perh::ips the m:fnister can Rive us the henefit of his experience and the experience of his official.fl on that particular problem. 13!)8

March 5, 1973 Tape 461 Pk - 3 Of course, there is the wider problem of encouraging future investment in the apartment sector nnyway and in other rental accotnmodation. I recall a recent statement, Mr. Speaker, by a builder who says it is far more rewarding to him to invest in shopping centre construction that carries longer leases, less maintainence requirements and requires must less equity than it is for him to r,et into the field of apartment buildings.

Also certain construction groups, certain construction firms in Toronto, for example, I remember readinp; in the "Globe and Mail" back in I believe September of 1972, were construction groups themselves were subjected to a certa:l.n amount of irritation if not abuse from certain tenants' organizations.

Of course, all of this,without going into the merits, the rip,hts and wronRs of it, all of this has had a tendency to make construction contractors, builders. landlords shy away from the rental acc011U11odation market and to put the:lr money into other types of buildinr,s, ehoppinr. centreR and this sort of thinr;. f.o the m:lnbtcr perhaps couJ d devote a word or two to that problem as well.

The hope is the federal and provincial governments,by some loosening up of CMHC provisions, by putting an incentive on buildin~ good. fit- for-­ habttation type of accommodation ,w:f.11 encourage bu:l.lders to get into the market, the rental accommodation market, so that we do not find ourselves having a beautiful set of laws on the books but very few premises and accommodations to which it would apply and of course the social disaster which would result from thRt problem arising.

There is another basic criticism I think whi.ch I will throw out for the min:IBter's cons:lderation,that iA the adm:lnistration did not follow whnt is her.omfnp. R very hnsic Atep hy most p,overnmr.nts and was certRinly toutNl hy this adrnfnfRtr11tion when it was in oppo,lition and it wal'I sc~kinP, e]~ctfon. Thfs p,ovrrp•cnt did not follow thA procedure of prepnr:lnr, this drnft ]ep,1Hlnt1on nnd aeekinn the ndvice of interested parties and then redraftinR the legiAlation. Now it is true thnt they hroup,ht

an act into this P.ouse, a bill into this House, No. 77. Then they had a conference, 13~9

March 5, 1973 Tape 461 PK - 4 I believe back last April,which dealt with some of this, But I mean that was sort of haphazard, that was something which arose more or less without the government really willing it, Perhaps what the ~overnment should have done was to get the House to r,et a standing or select committee which could 1nv1te nod call w1tnessrs and r,o into this whole area. Instead - AN llON. HF.MnF.R: Jnaudihle. MR. R0:-1£.· _ _!"_~ Well J d:l.d not get that impression, the minister initiated the conference hut it dtd not come out of the blue, Mr. Spenkt,r. AN T!ON.

MEMllF:R: Inaudible, - ~--- --- -- MR._!!?~~~. W,N. But it did not come out of the blue. I think most of the :Initiative came from a group of young people who organized this conference. To a great extent, I believe they had, according to one of the clippinr,s here. I was not there,T. must admit - AN HON. !-ff.:MJlF.R : Inaudible. ------ -- MR .. ROWE, W, N .. All very beautiful clippinp.s, the minister looks pretty good. P,ut I understand from one of them that, (let me see if I can find it) the Y,roup was brou~ht tor.ether hy tenant intercommun1 cations -1 A that the same one?

A project sponsored hy an opportunities for youth Rrnnt. So the mfoiiqter and the government did not really sec the initintive here,which should he really commonplace by now.

When ler,islation is being brour,ht into the House on matters which affect a r,reat number of people and there are emotional feelings on it and highly controversial, I think this government,like most other r,overnment across North America now, Canada, should take the step of drafting legislation.I helieve,and submitting it, sort of send up a flyer, submit it to a select committee of the House and let a select committee invite witnesses and put out advertisements that hearings are going to be held and hear interested p.roups come up with proposals and make a list of recommendations b"ack to th1.s House, to the government>and the government then could then redraft its legislation.

Now as it happened they did have tl1is conference.which is more or less, well mayhe it is unktnd to say, forced upon the r,overnment, Mr. Speaker~ 1.10 0

March 5, 1973 Tape 461 Pl< - 5 I think that - HR. ROWF., W.~. Paroon? AN HON . MF.l-fllF.R: Inaudihle. MR. ROWE, W. N. That is right, Mr. Speaker, we will get gate, which is what happened in this case. There was a demand and the gov.ernment acceded t to the detnand. But I think tpe government itself should have taken the initiative to a greater extent. Mr. Speaker, I have mentioned already .section (6) of the bill. The minister was out of the House, but I just again mention it,that there should be perhaps somethinr, ~rawn up, some kind of a brochure drawn up to give to tenants,by the landlords,so the tenants will know basically what their 1401

March 5, 1973, Tape 462, Pagel -- apb rip,hts are. There are one or two other specific things which I woulcl like to mrntion to thE" min:lfttPT. I notice thnt in the b:fll thrn• :fR no rnrnl'lon or nondfHcrim1nat:fon wh<-n l11ndlorda arc p,:fvinR out acco11U11odation. Thie was raised in the very same conference which the minister now takes credit for. I believe the conference at that time proposed that a

section be included in the act which would declare that sections (7)and(.8) of the Newfoundland Human Right's Code of 1969 apply. I do not think any harm can be done, The min:f.ster has something thrre on that perhaps and maybe we can hear his collll1\ents. I th1.nk if we arc r,oing to deal with landlords and tenants, tenancies of residential properties, that this is the place to put in something with rcr,ard to nondiscrimination against prospective tenants on ~rounds of colour, rrlir,ion or any other reason.

Aloo, thf' Cnn:tda C:ouncil on Soc:inl Development rcport,which I hnvc alrcndy rr.f(!rred to, makes the point th.1t some ler,1slation similar to this doeA not cover the possible rc<Julrement of a lease. That is a tenant falls behind :In rental pRyrnents or fn:fls to perform an obliration, all rents that is future corrunitted by the lrase over the term of thi:> lease become due and payable.

I do not think the minister has mentioned th:fs in this particulnr bill, but it is s01nethin1! which you often see in leases - that if there is a substantial default by the tennnt of any of the covenants in the lease, that all rentr; clt1(' and paynhl c undc-r the J ease' arc Uir.n accelerated, become due· cintl pnyahlc ·· a] 1 re>n tfl sny, which ore comm1 t trd in thC' lease ovt·r n trrm of one· yenr nt ~ny two hunclrc!d rloll.1rs n rnonth.,hecome due and paynble.

I have not had any experience in roinr. to court and testing this particular situation, hut prohnhly it h:is leRal val:l.dity. 1'ayhe there ,'.lre other lenrncd p.ent] e>mcn on the othcr side who can p,:fve me so!'le coll1J!lents on th:it who h,'.\Vc lrnd experiencr in roinr to court on tlils p.,rtiC".ulnr provision in son'e leases. If it does hnve lei:,:al vn]JcliLy, then :It 1s one of tlir most pernJdous doctr:lnN1 that can he 1402

March 5 1 1973, Tape 462, Page 2 -- apb allowed, I think that perhaps for r,reater clarity this bill reepectinr, tenancies of residential properties should have something in 'it regarding it. Ontario,for example, I think has legislation which specifically ou'tlaws this idea of accelerated rent, making rent which is committed under the lease become due and payable upon the breach of any covenant or condition or provision of the lease by the tenant. There is also, Mr. Speaker, one or two other things that I might mention.

The problem of over-holding tenants and the same report of the Canadian Council on SociBl Developemnt refers to the lack of spE'cific reference to the statue,, rip,hts and ohli~atfons of over-hold:fn~ tenants, that iR thoef! tennnts whoRe l<'ABea have expired but st1ll atny :In the rc>sidcnce with or without the con11ent of landlords. I do not think there is quite enour,h in this act, in this propo11cd act, deal:fng with the ouestion of over-holding tenants. Nova Scotin,I believe, Sir, has a separate act dealinp. with this problem.

Alberta, 'Man:1.toha, British Columbia and Ontario rive landlords the rir.ht to claim compensation from tenants. Under their acts, I believe a new tenancy is not created unless the parties agree. Quebec pe11'lits automatic renewal of a lease if a tenant has overstayed at least eir,ht days without notice or without opposition from the landlord or the lessor. Per.haps the minister mip,ht p,ivc aome con1:dclcration to :f.ncorpornting somethinr, like that in the b:f.11 hecnu,;e :It flec•rna to h<' r<'mmnabl c.

Tl1C' ourst1 on wh:l.ch nriseo :I fl without specific refC'rrnc·f• in nur Nrwfonn,llnnd J.nw, wh.'\t will he tht> rulrs p,overninr, over-hoJclinr, t·cnant~? Will thry l1nvc no r:lr,htfl? W:11.l they have the same r:lrl1ls an und<'r the rxpired JrnsP or will r:l~htn nR set forth in this bil 1 npply in car,es where no written l<'IHIC is in existence? In other words, will the bnsic terms of leai;es which hnve to be incorporated in all leases apply :In cases of ovcr-holdinp, tenants? 1403

March .'i, 1973, Tape 462, Pnge 3 -- apb It is not a big problem but i.t is a problem which could cause some difficult:l.es in some situations.

Since the minister is bringing th:ls bill before the House for approval, perhaps he and his offici:1.ls,in the time which elapses between now and Col!UT!ittee of the Whole on the ma. t ter, to the hill on those mntters. can bring in some possible amendments The same report, the Canadian Council on Soc:lnl Dev£>lopmcnt 1 mnkefl the po:lnt that "none of the new p:!cces of lep;islation cknl w:lth restr:lct:lons on tenants of rl:'ntal accommodation who h;ive children." This, r~r.

Speaker, remains n very basic problem for tenant proups and people who have children looking for apartments, lookinr, for rental accormnodations, as more and more apartment owners,certainly across Canada and perhaps here, more and more apartment owners are appearing to restrict tenants to those who have no children. Less maintenance, less noise, recreational facilities and all that kind of thing are the benefits to the landlord.

The Ontario Law Reform Commission noted also the conflict in single people being in rental accommodations and conples with families, the conflict and the life style between thc>se two groups of people and thought there mip.ht be some provision for separat:1.nP- the two types of people,family accomodation and singles accommodation or married people with no children,in two p;roups or two types _ of rental accommodat:!on, J.n that particular case the same problem arises as I ment:l.oned earlier. ~ost landlords will try to go I think, Mr.

Speaker, in the directJon of having rf'ntal accommodation for either sing]es or couple!! with no children because of the fewer problems involved and perhaps also because they can rcrhaps charfe more because of the relatively greater affluence of those couples or those sinrle people. This is a prohleM as well. The Ontario Law )1-cform ComMiss:lon suggested th.it the problem is prohahly insoluahle ~R fnr aa the ].iw :Is concerned anrl that thr r;ov,.rnmrnt could best chnnr,.re tlic 61 tunt:lon by 1404

March 5, 1973, Tape 462, Page 4 -- apb the construction of more rental unite in general, and perhaps by giving a premium to landlords and lessors who build units with rnulti-hedrooms, three of four bedrooms which would then of course have the effect of attractinr, families and families with children. These are one or two SUJI.Jl,estions that I have, Mr. Speaker. I have a few notes on some of the separate provisions of the bill, aomr of the clnuAN; and aa we yo throui:th the liill I will rn:lse my aur,p;rl'ltions and my crit:lc:lsms or comrnrnts whJch I mipht hnv(', at that time.

I think thnt iA all I. have to say Sl,f'nerally on the bill,. ASl,ain I say thnt the minister is doinp; the rir,,ht th:lnr, to bring this legislation in. I hope thnt he doeA take some cognizance of some of the things that I have mentioned as they are important and that perhaps between now and the time that the matter comes up for ColT'lllittee of the Whole HousE' discussion and third reading, that one of his colleagu<.>.s might find it possible to move one or two amcmdmrnts flO that we can now do a joh.

I run not ask:1 ng the minister to sort of lnunch forth :Into unknown territory, but certain things wh:lch wr all know exist, certain problems wMch exist which can be cured now in th:ls bill, perhaps he should give consideration to bringing them in at tl1is time. Of course, Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation in supporting the h:111 on second readinp.. !-KP. SPJ'AKER: The honourable tnPtnhE'r for Bell Island. ----- --- . - - - MR. NEAP-Y: Thank you, 'l-1r. Spr·aker. I muRt say that we ore secinr; some rathPr strAnr.c faceG in the- Chnir thc-se days. The other day we say the tn£>MbPr for St.

John' fl South, today, I clo not know if cominr, ev,~nts c111;t tlH':lr sh11dowr. hrforc• them or not, Sir, I do not !<now :If there• hnvc· lwrn nny c-,1nu11ltlcw :In the rnn1'R or not, l hnve not he,nnl nny 11ewo :In lit<' lnnt forty-·f'Ji• .lil ltourn, hut I nm v.Jnd to sec Your Jlono11r in thr• Chnir, Mr. Sprnkrr, nnr1 I truRt thnt you h1wr n lonr. and colourful carerr n~ Spcak0r of ci1iA TTous~, or Deputy Spraker, or Ass:lst:mt Deputy Speaker, or Ass:lstant to the ARAistant to the Ass:lstant 1405

March 5, 1973, Tape 462, Par,e 5 -- apb Deputy Speaker. Mr. SJ'ealter, my honournhl.e colleague hf!Tr. fa"' wnl.ktnp, encyclOJ'aedia on tenants ri.l\hta as he la on ao 111any other. 1nnttcrs and I must say thnt he really stated the poaitfon of tht! oppoRJ tion quite well. I do not think that any other metnher of the House could have done it ns well as my honourable collear,ue and I congratulate him, I congratulate him for !114kinr, such an excellent presentation, Sir. My honourable colleague touched on number (5) and Jam not r-oinr, to speak at any length on this, Sir. I just want to deal with number (5), provision (5) of the bill,"exception for public housing." My collenr,ue suggested

March 5, 1973 Tape 463 Mr. Neary: that th• mtnS.•t.•r in cloinR tha de,bato m1.Rht oxplatn why puLHc housing wa& left out and if it is the intentton of the government to omit the St. John's Housing Corporation because I contend, Sir, that the St. John's Housing Corporation is probably about the worst landlord that we have in Newfoundland. It is an agency of the government, Sir.

JM - 1 The minister told us in introducing this bill, and I agree with it in principle, that increases down at Omega,increases were given to the tenants and they could do little or nothing about it, the minister said, (I think I am quoting him correctly) until the board made its decision. So the minister boasted about a new approach. Last week he told us there was an agreement reached between the Tenants Association and the Omega people. I do not know if the minister said it was a signed agreement. Is it a signed agreement? It is a signed agreement,the minister tells us.

So he was quite happy about the fact that this had set a precedent bringing the landlord and the Tenants Association top,ether. Well, Sir, I congratulate him for that, He says that this should be a good example for the future. Well I say yes to that too, that should be so, Sir, but I want to remind the hon. minister that he is a member of the St. John's Housing Corporation, his colleague the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing is Chairman of the St. John's Housing Authority and they too, Sir, announced an increase in rents recently.

We had both minister-a and the Premier on the radio and television and in the newspapers night and day, Sir, when Omega wante.d a $10.00 a month incrcaRC', we had thene two rni.niatera and the Premier And onf! or two other ministers bcllysch:lng About it, critici?.inp; it 11ncl rir,htly so, I 11Rree with them hut what I would like to know, Mr. Spf'oker, where were they whf'n the St. John's llousing Corporation issued an ultimatum to the tenants who occupied their apartments that 1107

March 5, 1973 Tape 463 JM - 2 they better pony up or get out? I forget how it was worded now, Sir. I had a copy of the document but I do not have it with me. They were told to quit and deliver up the premises. That is how they got the news of thef.r increase, Sir, but not a veep out of the hon. minister who only a couple of weeks before thnt waR 111 the newspapers, Sir, corning to the rescue of the tenants down in the Omega Apartments • I think he did the right thing~and the Premier out complaininr, about Omega putting up the rents and the Choirman of the St. John's Housing Corporation, Mr. O'Leary, said no. St.

John's llousin11;1 althour,h the rents were a little less in his apartments,he could not see that they were going to increase their rents because Omega was going to get an increase The tenants partly won their battle down at Omega, Sir. They only partly won it. The increase was r,ranted providinr, the compnny carried out certain improvements and rec-ommendations which T understand they did. So they were grantee! a $9.00 a month increase and they asked for $10.00. That was not too bad, Sir. They got ninety per cent of what they wanted. What about the poor tenants, Sir, in the St.

John's Housing Corporation Apartments? Now, Mr. Speaker, I have no sympathy, no sympathy at all for the people that live down in Elizabeth Towers. They can bloody well afford to pay the increase in rent. The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir, AN HON. MEMBER: What about the hon, the Leader of the Opposition? MR. NCARY: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir, he can'afford to pay the extra seven to ten per cent a month and the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and !lousing he can afford to pny it and the hon.

Mh1h1tc!r of ProvJnc1.al l\ffaJrn cnn afford to p11y it nnd the hon. Premic-r can afford to pay it and any othc•r miniuters who are living down there can afford to pay this rent. AN HON. MEMilER: Can the Leader of the Opposition afford to pay it? MR. NEARY: The Leader of the Opposition,if he is paying rent there, 1108

March 5, 1973 Tape 463 he can afford to pay it. 'What about the poor little people, Sir, that are living in the apartments in Pleasantville and over here at Churchill Square and all the other apartments that come under the St. John's Housing Corporation? What about them, Sir? Did the minister go to battle for them? Did the Premier go to battle for them? No.

Sir, right up to this very moment not a peep and the way they got the announcement of the increase, Sir, "Quit and deliver up the prf'mises," in the envelope,and then the announcement of the increase, "You can stay providing you pay the increase," An ultimatum. The minister is on that corporation, Sir, So I say that the government should practice what they preach and the minister should practice what he preaches. Will this new bill cover the St. John's Housing Corporation and the St. John's Housing Authority? It will not, Mr. Speaker, it will not. Somebody says it will but it will not.

They can slide out from under it, Sir. Not only that I am told, Mr. Speaker, when these people that live in the apartments got their notification of quit and deliver up, a month's notice to yet out, In some cases, Sir, they did not even have the courtesy to put the announcement of the increase in the envelope. They thought they were being thrown out.

They discovered their mistake as they forgot to put the two documents in the same envelope and the next th1y they were told, "Oh, no, you do not have to leave providing you pay th.- incrense." I am also told, Sir, and perhaps the minister can correct this impression when he closes the debatc,that the St. John's Housinp, Corporation also in a very sneaky way have now done away with signing a lease for a year. It is on a month to month basis. So after a month,thcy can throw you out. That is another sneaky thing they did, Sir. Jm - 3 Now, Mr. Speaker, that is enou~h about the St. John's Housing Corporation.

I would like to hear the minister's reaction to some of the thinp,n thnt I hove sni<l. The minister also said, Sir, that this ls r,oinr, to Rmnrten up with the I'll um hndlords. Well mnybe it w:1.11 1109

March 5, 1973 Tape 463 JM - 4 and I hope it docs nnd hi!!' mentioned epecificnlly thmu:· who nr<• fleccinp; the people on aociltl nssistoncc. lie also mt•nt1oned the !;hortur.,c of apartments in St. John's ~and hou!l<'S. We] 1 ,' Sir, T would I I k,· to rend a

section from the annual report of the Department of Social ~ervices and Rehab:flitation for the year ended March 31, 1972 sir,ned by Thomas P. Hickey, Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation, confirming what the hon. minister said about the desperate shortage of houses in this area. I am reading this for a very special reason, Sir, because the hon. minister submitted this report to the House and he should have read it. It is a report of his recent administration up here on Harvey Road and when I read it the hon. minister will see the signifance of it.

It is titled, "Housing." "Reference was made in a previous report regarding the chronic housing shortage in the St. John's Area and as the problem is becoming more acute and progressively worsening from day to day it is necessary to comment further. The problem is also growing in the Districts of Bay Bulls, Bell Island, Fermeuse and Long Pond because of fires, evictions and many houses being condemned as unfit for human habitation. At any given t:frne as many as ten or twelve families are living in boarding houses and hotels." Living in boarding houses and hotels, Mr.

Speaker, and do you remember the criticism of the previous administration about having to put people in hotels and boarding houses. "The situation in aggravated to some extent by the fact that m~my families who bclonr, to other parts of the province come to St. John's because they cJ aim they arc unable to find nccomodation in their own area. Not only arc apartments and houses in short supply but the stage has now been reachc.d where extreme difficulty is encountered in finding boarding houses to accommodate the people concerned.

Most of the people affected have nothing but what they stand in and if and when housing is found 1110

March 5, 1973 Tape no. 464 Page 1 - MRW ~t follows that the basic items of household effects must be provided. I hope the hon. member for Port de Grave is getting the significance of this and the member for Bay de Verde with his snide remarks in this House the other day. All the members on the other side will r,ct the significance of this, Sir, before too long. "It was suggested in the past that the problem could only be resolved by the mass injection of funds, by all levels of government,in a subsidized public housing programme. While private speculators in the St.

John's Area have provided a number of apartment complexes during the past three or four years, the rates being charged for these units are beyond the financial reach of recipients of social assistance as well as the large nu111l-"1r of families on marginal earnings." Well, Sir, I say, hear! hear! to that. _MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: 1':IR, HICKEY: What year docs that cover,the report? March 31, 1972, signed by the honourable minister. I was only responsible for that one. MR. NEARY: That is right. This is the report of the regional administrator, Sir. I did not write the report. The minister signed it. MR.

HICKEY: I agree,I saw it. MR. NEARY: That is ri?,ht. You read it,I presume,and signed it. He wili have to bnck it up in this House. AN HON. Mf.MIIIIR: And RRrecd with it. .l'f~. NEA_l~_:_ And RP,rced with it, S:l.r, the point I am making here is this: the minh1ter left the :lmrression thnt thiR bill 111 p,o:1.ng to be the he-all and cure-nll of the clum ]nndlord. Well, Sir, it may smarten them up a bit. That will be o 1•,ood thinr; - slow but sure. But, Sir, I will say that it will not solve the probJC>m of the shortar.e of hou11t>s in this city or in this province.

You can smarten up landlords all you like, Sir, but it is not r,oing to increase the number of apartments that are available for rent, for people in the low income and no income brackets. If this government really want to do something for people in these categories, 1411

March 5, 1973 Tape no. 464 Page 2 Mr. Neary. tl1ey should fol low the recommendations of the rcr,ionnl 11dmintR tr a tor over at Harvey Road, when he says that it is SUP,l\ested (it Wl\H sur,r:estcd in the past) that the problem cnn only be resolved by the mass Jn1ectiou of funds by all levels of government in a subsidized public housing pror:ramrne. That is the only way, Sir, that you can solve the problem of people in the low income and no income brackets.

You can make life a little more comfortable for them under this bill, of course, you can by putting the gears to the landlords and God only know it is about time, Sir. It is not going to solve the problem.I am sure the minister did not mean to leave the House with that impression. Now, Sir, I will be anxious to hear what the minister has to say about the tenants livinr. in apartments under the St. John's Housing Corporation. They are like the junior member for Harbour Main, Sir, they got shafted. They got shafted and nobody spoke on their behalf. 111cy had to sit there and take it.

The tenants livinp, in apartments which belong to the St. John's Housing Corporation,"quit and deliver up the premises~ that is what they were told. The minister is on the board. The Minis tcr of Municipal Affairs and Housing is chairman, not chairman - no. What is his title? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ~EARY: I would say that the mJnister owes thest• people an explanation.

Why d:ld all these ministers antl the Premier take such n r,r<',H interest in the Omer.a tenants when they were m,ked to pony up ;1110 ther ten dollars and completely Jgnore tenants who live :In apartments thc1t come under the jurisdir:Uon of the St. John's llousinr. Corporation, 1.·hJch is 11dministered hy th•· v,ov,•r11111r.111., Ir• 11 r:n·11 tur<' of llw 1;nvl'r11m,•1H? :\p,1rt from th1H ] lLtlP 11 ! ~

March 5, 1973 Tape no. 464 Page 3 Mr. Neary. interjection of a sour note, probably after what my honourable colleague had to say about this bill, Sir, I think it is a pretty good bill. It is like all other pieces of legislation, Sir, it will be very difficult for the ordinary layman to understand it, even though from now on he is going to be presented with a copy of it. When he signs the lease, he gets a copy of the bill presented to him.

I wonder, Sir, if he will also be provided with legal aid to tell him about clause 8 (1), "The doctrine of interesse termini is abolished." Sir, I would like to know what that means, I am sure some little tenant going in over here on Anderson Avenue, Sir, will be glad to know that that doctrine of something or other is being abolished. I do not know what it is. Perhaps the honourable minister can tell us what it is? going to be presented with

an act, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Sure, tell me what it is. But all these people are _MR. HICKEY: I canvassed all the lawyers in St. John's but they cannot tell me. I have come up with my own explanation for it. It seems that it is a doctrine wherein under this situation, if a person rents a piece of property, up to the time they move into the property, the landlord can hold them responsible;

whereas now, they are refipona:f.ble when the lease is signed now, They do not have to move in to be responsible. Under the old system, they were responsible only when they moved in and took possession of the premises, MR. NEARY: 11iat is very clear, Mr. Speaker. It is as clear as mud. I hope the honourable minister will be there every time there is a lease sir,ned. AN HON. MEMTIER:

Section 10. MR. NEAKY: Yes, I am coming to

Section 10. 1113

March 5, 197J Tape no. 464 Page 4 MR. HICKF.Y: Now there is a brochure like the honourable r,entlcman mentioned. MR. NF.ARY: Every time that a lease is signed, the honourable minister will be there to explain

section 8(1): "The doctrine of interesse termini is abolished." What about

section 10, Sir, 'Frustration." Remember the tenants are going to get this in their hands, Sir. This is one of the provisions of the bill,

section 10: "The doetrjne of frustrc1tion of contract applies to the relationship of landlord and tenant and TI1e Frostratcd Contracts Act, 1956 applies thereto." I wonder Jf the honourable minister would expl,lin that one to me? MR. lllCKEY: It would take too long. MR. NF.ARY: Is he just as frustrated as I am? My honourable colleague reminds me of

section 12. I read this bill, Sir. I will tell you if I were signing a lease and somebody gave me a copy of this and I read it, I would almost be afraid to sign the lease, :1fraid that I might get some kind of a contagious disease. "Covenants concerning thinr,s related to the rented premises run with the land whether or not the things are in existence at the time of the demise." There it is. Well, Sir, I hope the minister will personally see to it that the tenants that are signinr, leases have exp] anations of all these. Perhaps the hon. member for St. John's East could clear up some of these matters.

Oth P. rwJ.ne, Sir, I will have to p,o down and look for lep,al aid, because I c:111not afford to pay the hfeh lcr,al feeR that are char~ed in th:ls province for glvinr. you that kind of advice, unless my collear,ue herohas taken up the prc1ctice of law recently and will give me some free advice. Sir, these are some of the tldnp,s I would like for. the minister to clear up when he is closin~ the debate on this bi.11. Basically I think it is a pretty good bill, Sir. It is a good start. It does not go far enough. It does not include public housing. 1-114

March 5, 1973 Tape no. 464 Par,e S It does not include the apartments that come under the jurisdiction of the St. John's Housing Corporation. They have to batt]e it out for them1J11lveA, Their momher wUl not oven get in thou b11ttl ini\ (cir then,. Poor U ctlo momhor trom QuiRley'• Lina, over on Bell lsland, ha8 to come in~ poor little member from Quigley's Line, Sir, has to come in and battle for them. Perhaps the honourable minister will tell us,when he is closing the debate. I have nothing else to say about the bill, Sir. Now he has his opportunity. MR, SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bonavista South. MR.

MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, in speaking in support of this bill, I feel I have an obligation to do so based on the fact that during the past two years I have been actively involved in tenant/landlord relationships, mainly on behalf of the tenants with the Human Rights Association. I have done many investigations,on behalf of the Human Rights AasocJ.ation, in accommodations and housing accommodations, mainly in the St. John's Area. This legislation that we now have before the House of Assembly is long overdue because the Rent Restrictions Act is outdated.

I welcome this new legislation. ·Now my investigations into the accommodations, rented 1415

March 5, 1973 Tape-No. 465 NM - 1 ~- "'!ORGAN: nccommodationa, mainly the furniRhed nnd nonfurnfshed ac,commodations in St. John's, I find that people in St. John's today l!'ight now are livinP, in places unfit for human hahitation, simply unfit for human hahitation, unsRnitary toilet facilities, walls cavinr; in, leaky roofs, faulty heating equipment, fire hazards due to had wiring and Mr. Speaker, the sad part of this is that there are at least 400 families today in St John's living under these conditions.

There are at least 300 families, to he exact the last survey showed 310 families living in accommodations without nny cold water in their hathroomR or in their apartm~nts. Utterly amnzin~ in this day and ar,e we find these people living under these conditions here in the City of St, John's. The people living in these accommodations are mainly the lower :1.ncome people and the people who are receivinp, assistnnce from the Department of Social Assistance.

They are not all welfare recipients, there are also some lower income people out working and receiving very low salaries, These people are referred to these places by rental agencie& like the Newfoundland Rental Agency which is a private enterprise and also the St.

John's Housing Corporation, The people wl10 are on social nssistance and lower income po to these rental agencies lookfnR for accommodatJons and they refer thE!m to these places, TheRc places, which are unfit for hum11n hahltc1tion, they refer them to these places by these agencies and it is shameful, it is ridiculous that when these people go to a company known as the Newfoundland Rental Ar,ency here in St.

John's, they are sent to these places in the older sections of St, John's and paying rents­ they are not payinr, it in most cases, lf they are on social assistance of course the government is paying the rents, but if they are in the 1116

March 5, 1973 Tape No. 465 NM - 2 lower income bracket they are paying it themselves and they are paying it to these rental agencies who are acting as fronts for the slum landlords. The rents are collected today in St. John's for many of these older accommodations in St. John's, the older

section of St. John's. Rents are collected by the lawyers' offices and trust companieR and by the rental agencies, one major one in particular, The Newfoundland Rental Agency. In my survey, I would like to point out, there is no honourable member of this ll~use who I can call a slum landlord, there is not. But, Mr.

Speaker, there are some very prominent citizens of this city, I find it utterly disgraceful that these people who call themselves prominent citizens, who are so-called christian-minded people, go to church every Sunday, christian minded people who are taking advantage of these lower income people in the City of St. John's. It is disgraceful, I call it an exploitation of the poor. Thnt is really what it is. They go home every evening to their nice big plush homes, profeosional people - doctors, lawyers, dentists, they RO down to the olrler sections of St.

John's and they buy up all the so-called slum areas, they buy them for one reason,as a business venture and nothing else. They do not buy them for the sake of providing accommodations for these low income people, no they buy them strictly as business ventures and that is all they do it for. They forget them after that. They do not do many repairs, in some cases none whatsoever. The snd part of it all js that the people who are rentinB these nccommoclatiomi.talldnp, 11bout fnmtrat:lon, that is what really fruR t rn t:f on 1a. Thc-se pr.op] r who are pnyJ nR rents to thf!

Neowfoundland Rr.ntnl Ap,l'ncy on Wntr.r Street, n compnny down thP.re where these so-culled prominent citizens are hidinr, behind, they 1417

March 5, 1973 Tape No. 465 NM 3 are paying their rents to that rental agency attd-tht! peop1l' who are paying the rents nre unable to find out who the -l.11ndlorcl rf'nlly is - absentee alum landlords. I sincerely hope, Mr. Speaker, that this piece of legislation will put an end to this kind of exploitntion of the poor. It is long overdue.

I have walked into npartmento in this city time and time again, through my investigation for the Human Rights Association,and I have seen families living in places, it is practically unbelievable, where they find children sleeping in bedrooms where the bed clothing is soaked, with leaky roofs, where there is no fire, no heating accommodation and no water. I found places like that which are owned by professional men in this city.

Profess:l .onal people, !!;O:fnr, horn~ to their nice, bip,, beautiful, plush homes every night and laur,hing at the money they are making off these so-called slum areas, and they are slum areas. Now I know that this piece of legislation is go:f.ng to overcome this to an extent, If the lower income people have a direct lease or contract with the landlord, let them be covered with the landlord directly. But in cases with the welfare recipients, how are they going to force the landlords to do repairs to their accommodations they are livinf,\ in? How are they p,oing to do it?

They are living as occupants of the accommodtions hut indirectly they are not th~ tennnta because a tenant is a person who pays the rent and in this case the Deportment of Social Assistance is paying the rent. So how are the people living on welfare or social assistance, how are they r,oing to force the landlords to rnake repairs to his accommodations1 That is a very 1.mportant question. To me it is, becausP. for too lonp, it has gone on, whern we have seen th:111 expl.o:1tntion,:md it must hC' stopped 1118

March 5, 1973 Tape No. 465 NM - 4 but can this bill atop it? I certainly hope it can. Looking at ontl! Hctinn (If thP bfl 1, wh,ir"' 1 t cl1u11u1!j A t"nont fllll 11n occupant or that accommoclations and not the peraon who pay1 the rent. In that cnae, if the occupant knows the landlord and has a contract with the landlord, maybe he can force the landlord to make repairs. But if the peron paying the rent has no contract, he.obviously cannot force repairs to the accommodation. So there is a major question there with me on that point.

Now I would like to see, and the minister could consider this point, that the Department of Social Assistance, wherever they are paying the rents for welfare recipients, if they are paying for accommodations which they feel are not satisfactory that the department should withhold the rent. The Department of Social Assistance should withhold paying the rent to these landlords, whether they are absentee or otherwise, until the necessary repairs are carried out to these accommodations. That is the only way that this problem can be overcome.

Because if the Department of Social Assistance can make sure these recipients will not be thrown on the street, not be evicted from the apartments, it means they will stay there without their rent being paid until the necessary repairs are carried out, leaky roofs, etc. That is one recommendation. The other I would like to see covered under this bill is that the tenancies boards which are now goin~ to replace the Rental Control Board, that that board should have a standard of minimum facilities for accommod~tions. In other words, there should be a minimum of facilities in 1my apartment, furnishl"d or unfurnished.

This mcnnR there! Ahoul d be bathroom fnc:f l 1 tieR there-, there ehould be ht•nt:1.nr, 11nd proper wirhtf\ and tht•11e kind nf thinp,R, If that were a firm rcr,ulation which could be controlled hy the11e bonrds, it woulcl 1419

March 5 , 1973 Tap e No . 465 NM - 5 mean :it lea st thnt Lhe mnJority of the plnccs could he 1mprovud to the poinL of cln11s I ficd ,1.hcre now they are not ft t for human habilntio n . Yer they 1:hould not be classified bcc:au1tc tltcy nrc r eally not fit for human habitation . These are two points . The t hird point I would like to make is that there is no mention in the act about the boanlinr, houses, room rentnls . Some of the boarding houses here in St .

J ohn ' t: leave much to he dcsire<i. lf we are going to have some re r,ulat ion contr o l linr, the acconnnodatlons for tenim t s, T think thcr c sho ul d also be some control ove r the boardinn houses or rcn ~inn of roomn. 1 wou ld like to see that indudc<I :in this act or some othcr piec,! of lcr,;lslation to covcr the boarc!inr~ housc-s to mnkc sure th!'.:y are inspe c ted by the Department of lie.11th and other dcpartments accordingly . 1420

March 5, 1973 Tape 466 PK - 1 The other point that the two speakers for the opposition made which was well taken with me and that is the act does state that the copies of the act will be made available by landlord to all tenants. I think it is very important that a simplified copy be made available because the act itself,I think that point is well taken that the act is very difficult to understand,especially be any person even the members of the House of Assembly.

So I think it is goinp, to be very heneficial to the tenants if they have simplified, brochure type information on the act itself rather than copies of the act being available to tenants. That point I think is a very p,ood point. I think one major p,ood point in this act is the fact that when a person makes a complaint and the complaint is received by the board that the rent will be held in trust by the board until a ruling is made by the board accordinP,ly.

I think that is a very good point, If a complaint is made that means the tenant will not be paying rent, he will be paying it but it will be held in trust until the decision is reached. The other point rep.arding this act, which I would like to speak on, is leases. Some of the leases; this legislation cannot control what kind of a lease can be drawn up between a landlord and tenant.

If a landlord draws up a lease and he p.ets n tenant to sip,n it and the tenant is unahle to understand the terms of the lease in the beginning and be if; not goinp, to go to a lawyer and ask him to :1.nterpret the lease, in many cases he is not going to do that, he is just going to sign the lease. There could he two very damaP,inp, points in that leaRe (1) there could be a clause known as the "confession of jud~ment clause," Which means th:1t the tenant hims~lf is P,\\iJ ty of any charge, without beinR pToven ~uilty.

The second point with repard to leases 1s known as the waiver linhflity clnuRe, · wherein in this case a tennnt cannot sue the landlord 1121

March 5, 1973 Tape 466 PK - 2 for personal damages even thou~h the landlord is at fault. Now these two points in a lease can be very darnar,in~ to a tenant. So it does not protect the tenants riRhts in many cases,Ro this act 1s ROinr, to he, as far aR I cnn see 1unnh1(! to control what tcmR 11nd conditions will be set down :ln an actual len!leH. AN HON. Mf·'.'fllFR • Jnaucl1h]e. MR. MORGAN: That is right there Rhould be some kind of a universal fitandard lease "'hich all landlords will use. But as it p,oes today there are numerous, they are all different.

It is up to the discretion of the landlord in many cases hecause the tenant cannot call the shots because accommodations are so hard to find. You cannot find any accommodations. So if he finds accommodations and the landlord stipulates si~ning this lease,he will sign the lease. lle has no choice, in many cases. So these two pointR rep,ard1nr, leases I think should be pres<'nted by the minister.

So far most of the speakers have mentioned, except the minister I think ment1.oned tlds point, the others did not, that is th1.s lease is not only r,oinp, to cover the rights of a tenant. it has also r,ot rip,hts for lancllords. Now all landlords are not bad. There are some good landlords in this city. I am a tenant and I have a good landlord. But the bad

part is that the names of the good landlords are beinr, ruined by these ruthless landlords and ahsentee landlords who are exploiting the poor in this city. But a landlord al.so needs protection because in some cases I have seen accom~odations and apartments were tenants have damar,ed the property of l~ndlords. In some case they just do not show any consideration nt all. There :Is no cons:lclerat:l.on at all on the part of the tenant for the property of the landlord. For example, if he is an unreasonable tenant and he wants to get rid of, if he wishcn, or he evicti:i h:fm from his '1pnrtment for A r,ood numhcr of reasons, not j\lflt for the fnct t.hl\t he clneH not Ukc the- 1nndlord 1122

March 5, 1973 Tape 466 PK - 3 .. not any form of discrimination, because the tenant himself, in this case, ia a bl!ld tenant. lie is damaging property etc. 'This is being done, The landlord needs protection himself and it is very costly on the part of the landlord in the past and still is to have these people, in most cases, taken to court, and court cost involved. So, Mr. Speaker, the bill itself is, in my view, a good beginning.

It is a ~ood beginninp, nnd I sincerely hope that it will put an end to, as J have mentioned before, the exploitation of the poorer class people and it will give the rip,hts to tenants and also landlords as they deserve it. Thank you. MR. COJ.UNS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot let the opportunity poss by without having a word on th:1.s particular hill because as honourable members will remember last year I introduced practically this bill which we are looking at today. Recause of restructuring the responsibility for the Rent Restrictions Act now is with the Department of Provjncial Affairs and F.nviroMent.

I could not help hut be amused by the honourable member for White Bay South who is reading all my notes over there which I used ll!lst year at the various tenants nssociation ·meetinp,s, fhen criticizing us for not holding the meetings all in the same breath, out of diffe~ent corners of the mouth,of course. There were puhl:l.c hearin~s held in various places across the province. !-N HON. MEMBER: Ina11dible. MR. COLLINS· Not forced hearings at all, Mr. Speaker.

The bill was presented in this House and given first reading and it was deliberately left at that sta~e so th~t they could be sent to the Tenants Association across Newfoundland, so it could be sent to the landlords across Newfoundland and so that it could be> sent to all the people who might be interested in takinp, a look nt the lopf.slation hecau11e in our opinion it was a major step forward in terms of lanrllord/tennnt reJntionshipa if you want, We are lookinr. nt .,n old Re>nt Rr.strictions Act which was hrou~ht into Ncwfouncll::md 1123

March 5, 1973 Tape 466 PK - 4 to deal with the very high rents which were beinR chRrged to American soliders, I Buppoe ,who were coming in here. Even thot1Rh wh@m we were on the opposite side of this House, with all of the complaints that we made about it and all of the requests we made to have this pi~ce of lcr,islation updated,that was never done. It was in our plank during the two elections campaigns that we would bri.ng in this sort of a bill and we did do it and we did it quickly.

It received the publicity which it should have received and a lot of people looked at it, a lot of people have made some rec0111111endations to it. While I am sure that this is not perfect, I think that all honourable members must agree that it is one of the hest pieces of leg~alation that we have seen and certainly a great improvement over the old Rent Restrictions Act. Now there are going to he amendments to it. That is one of the reasons why w·e sit in this House - to amend legislation as the need arises. I have no doubt that there will be a need to amend this. I believe that :ft is more than a good start.

I believe th{R embodies, as far as I cnn nee, just about all of the better parts of the various pieces of lep,i6lation across the country. People down in my department at the time, particularly Clyde Bradbury who was very knowledgeable, studied all the legislation we could r,et our hands on. We attended various meetinp,s across Canada, from nritish Columbia eastward. We have embodied into this what we consider it to be the best of all pieceR of legislation and as I have said while it mjght not be perfect certainly it is a major step forward.

Most speakers have mentioned the statutory conditions of the hill, the legal rir,hts And the oblir,ations of hoth parties, the landlords and the tenants. I believe that one of the most important things mentioned here is the- establishment of five or six, the minister can deal with this later, five or six residential tenant~ hoards, which means that we will have a board in Labrador,! presume. We will have a board on the South Coast. We will have hoards in Central Newfoundland and Western Newfoundland who can deal with the p1r~blems of those places an<1 deal 1424

March 5, 1973 Tape 466 PK - 5 qu1ckly, knowledgeahly1 certainly a r,reat improvement over the Provincial Rent Control Board. Some honourable memher on the other aide, Mr. Speaker, aked why is it that subsidized rental units do not come under this particular piece of legislation?

I am not sure of this but I believe I am right when I ~ny th11t the mnin reasons for it is becau11e sub11idized rental units are unite which nre constructed on a federal/provincial partnership basis, the rents ar.e suhsidized by the partnership and I do not believe that we could apply this particular piece of provincial legislation in thftt area because of the federal involvement. I am also of the opinion that :f.t would he difficult to apply because the rents in subsidized rental units are geared or attached or determined by the income of the tenant.

For instance, given a three bedroom house, a person might be living in that and paying as little as $30.00 a month,

whereas another person making more money and probably with lesser kids in the family and so on might be required to pay $300.00 a month. So I fail to see how the rent restrictions or the new act now could apply in that particular case. I believe that my collaaP,ue when he responds in a few minutes time will indicate l:hat the St. John's Housing Corporation properties will become subject to the provisions of this act, I am not sure of that at the present time, but J believe that is the case. With regard to the honourable member for Bell Island, his assertions about my beinr, Ch:lirman of the St.

John's Housing Corporation, that :Is entirely false of course because I was Acting Chairman for two or three months early last year, 1 think it was May, June and July. I am not even a member of the corporat:1 .on now,as the honourable memher mip,ht not be aware of, but cert::i:l.n]y not the chairman, not even a member. I see no reason why those pi~cee of property eho11ld not come

March 5, 1973 Tape 467 under the jurisdiction of this particular piece of legislation and if it is not taken care of now possibly an amendment could do that as we move through~if it is to be the government's desire that that should be done. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). JM - l - MR. COLLINS: Well, I am responsible for the St. John's Housing Corporation, if you want to put it that way. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. COLLINS: Those hon. gentlemen opposite they yell and bawl and scream and criticize, they had all the years in the world to bring in legislation like this but they did not do it.

We brought it in today knowing full well that it was not going to be perfect. None of us are perfect but certainly goodness they can agree to agree with us and say that we are doing a good thing, this is a marvellous step forward and give us a hand in trying to improve it further. MR. ROBERTS: I consider it lends some tone to the House. Mr. Speaker, I had not intended to get into this debate but the remarks of gentleman from Gander are so needlessly offensive that I feel I should say a word or two.

I see the Minister (designate) of Industrial Development smiling and I think he and I are probably on the same wave length with respect to the remarks of the gentleman from Gander. Let me just say, Mr. Speaker, two or three things. First of all it is quite true to say that this legislation was not brought in in 1949 or in 1950 or in 1951 or 1952 or in 1961 or 1971, that is quite true and if the gentleman from Gander, the present Minister of Municipal Affairs,wish to blame any of us let him. I can say mea culpa and so forth.

The only point the gentleman from Gander neglected to mention and he sometimes tries to be fair­ minded but he seems to have forgotten that on this occasion - MR. COLl,lNS: (lnaudible). have bf!en contemptuous silence on my pllrt but T l1earu hi111 in silence and let him be good enough to extend the same courtesy to me. As I was 1126

March 5, 1973 Tape 467 saying, Sir, before I was so rudely interrupted by the gentleman fr01Jl Gander. Oh, he is a gentleman and so is the gentleman from Green Bay. He is certainly not a lady. MR. PECKFORD: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I assume the gentleman from Green Bay will follow the same rules as we have all been repeatedly and wisely asked to observe. As I was saying,the gentleman from Gander as a rule tries to be fair-minded but he seems to forget that today. He neglected to point out what is the most significant point about this legislation or one of the two.

The first one is that it is good legislation. He said that, I say it and we have all said it,with no hesitation. It is good legislation and to whatever extend a minister should be commended for bringing it in,I so commend that minister. He also neglected to point out, Sir, that this is new legislation, I do not pretend to be JM - 2 an expert in the history of tenants rights and I certainly do not pretend to be an expert in the legal aspect of tenants rights. Like the gentleman from Bell Island I have no idea what interesse termini means or any of these doctrines.

The doctrines of frustration with which I am familiar have little to do with the law. They may have a great deal to do with other things but not the law, Sir. But the point is,and one does not have to be an expert to know this, that this legislation is new in Newfoundland just as it has been new across Canada, Within the past two or three years we have seen legislntion of this sort enacted in almost every province but it is only within the past two or three years.

The Landlord and Tenant Act of the Province of Ontar:l.o as it existed in the early 1960's when I went to law school there was about as archaic and as outmoted as the Rent Restrictions Act or the Common Law which was the law in Newfoundland and is still the law until this bill is passed and proclaimed. The Landlord and Tenant Act in Ontario was largely a 1427

March 5, 1973 Tape 467 JM - 3 codification of conmon law, Hr. Speaker. Moat of the other provinces were in the same position as was Newfoundland. They relied on the co1111110n law, not a very good defence particularly for the tenant but that is the way it was. I heard no voices including the voice of the hon. gentleman from Gander raised fifteen years ago or ten years ago or five years ago. He may have raised his voice within the past year or two. If he did I have no hesitation in connnending him for it. He will find,now that he is in an administration, Mr.

Speaker, that it is easier to raise one's voice in opposition than it is while in a ministry. In a ministry one functions as part of the ministry and what passes in cabinet or what suggestions are put forward and for one reason or another are not accepted 1 die. The gentleman from Fortune Bay has never quite realized that. He sports his hair shirt on occasion. But the fact remains that this legislation was not brought in by the administration of which I was a part.

I do not think it is quite fair of the hon. gentleman, it is not even unfair it is just offensive of him to try to make cheap partisan political capital out of this bill. If he wants to make cheap partisan political capital, may I suggest he return to his own district where there may be a warm welcome for him. Now, Mr. Speaker, I was quite taken by what the hon. gentleman from Bonavista South said and I believe the hon. gentleman from Bell Island made essentially the same point. This is good legislation and it is as advanced as any there ts in Canada. It may even be the most advanced.

It will be the most advanced until another province passes a bill which will then become more advanced because legislation in one province builds upon another and our draftsman and the officials in this government, the officials in the civil service here look to other provinces and they take ideas and they take concepts and that is the way it should be. Why should we pretend that we are the fount of 1428

March 5, 1973 Tape 467 all wisdom? We are a small province. We have a good public service but it is not that large. The Province of Ontario might have one hundred people expert in various aspects of landlord and tenant regulations and we may have two or three or five. Mr. Bradbury's name has been mentioned. He is a very estimable gentleman and very expert in this line of work. The Province of Ontario might be blessed with a dozen Mr. Bradburys. So, of course, we take the ideas and I am willing to bet almost everything in this bill has come from another province.

I do not say that ae a criticism but I think that is the normal and right and proper way. JM - 4 The gentleman from Bonavista South has put hie finger on a frightfully important point, Sir, when he says, as did the gentleman from Bell Island, that this bill will not solve the housing problem and if anybody listening, well the gentleman from Gander agrees with me that it will not. It will improve things. It will require landlords to upgrade~ccommodations.

It will provide tenants with some rights in law develope~ far beyond the rights of a tenant of collUllon law,and a collUllon law tenant has very few rights, very few. It will protect people who need protection. I agree about the St. John's Housing Corporation being under this bill. That is common ground but I do not think the people who live in Elizabeth Towers need worry too much about protection as they are pretty capable of fighting for themselves. The Premier is able to fight for himself.

My parents,who are tenants, I am not, I am not quite a free boarder but I am a short-term boarder in their apartment there, they are quite capable of standing up for themselves. The gentleman from Gander whom I believe is a tenant at the Tower - He is not. All right the gentleman from St. John's East Extern is a tenant at the Towers and he is quite capable of fightinr, for himself. The people who live in these complexes, Sir, are capable. If they do not have the ability within themselves or the knowledge they know how 1129

March 5, 1973 Tape 467 JM - 5 to get a lawyer and they can afford to get a lawyer. It is the people who live in these houses downtown that the gentleman from Bonavista South mentioned these are people who do not know how to fight back and even if they do the cards are stacked against them because they find that they are up against lawyers, they are up against bailiffs. The Newfoundland Rental Agency, well that is another story. They are running a legitimate business. I agree with the hon. gentleman. I do not particularly like it.

It is not the sort of business I would like to be in but it is a legitimate business. The reason there is a Newfoundland Rental Agency or the reason we have these appalling accommodations is that in Newfoundland, and my colleagues and I within the government are equally guilty, it is true all across Canada, we have not accepted the basic facts that a person has the right to a house. We will provide them with medical care and the stete pays the shots. We will provide them with education and the state pays the shots.

We will provide them with a minimum of food and shelter but we will not accept the basic fact that people have a right to decent housing, We talk about it and every member of this House, Mr. Speaker, if he were to be asked would say truthfully and with conviction that of course people have the right to housing but we will not fin~ the money an~ the society to make it work. I do not know what lt would cost, It might cost $300 million or $400 million to provide the people of Newfoundland with adequate housing. This bill will not do it. This bill will not

!-',arch 5, 1973 Tape 468 IB-1 do it at all. It may make it a little worse because the reason people live in these incredibly appalling conditions downtown and I do not pretend to be knowledgeable in them, I have seen some of them and they would just turn your stomach to think that people live in these but they live there because they have to, because there is nowhere else to go. I do not know what the waiting lists are, Mr. Speaker, at places such as the various low rental housing, the subsidized rental units around here. I suspect even with the point system (what?

A year~ Two years?) you have to wait until Romebody moves out. I mean, they are filled CJ uickly. Do we not have more low rental hous:l.ng than any city :l.n Canada, per capit11? AN JIONOIIRAflLF. MEMBER: Ten yenri:1. ~-_R!)_.!'.!::_~S: Ten yenrs is it? It cannot be ten. Well, it can be a lone, long time. Seven or eight hundred people waiting. That is the problem this HouRe really should be turning 'its attention to. It is not just St. John's. There are in this House a half dozen gentlemen who i::erved as Min:1.ster of Welfare under one name or another.

The gentleman from Bell Island, the gentleman from Fortune Bay, the gentleman from St. John'11 F.ast Extern, I mysE>Jf, the gentleman from Labrador West who h11s part of th~ respon11thilit1es of the old department. Any of those pcopJ c or any memher nnywher.e in thi B province, Your Honour doubtless, has fieE'n homling cond:ltions that c1mnot be he1-fcved. F.very member could stnnd and tell of a half dozen he knows of, people in his com;ti tuency, people he has met in h:I s travels or in M fl work who are liv.tng 1n ahsolutely appn111.ng conditions, Thnt is the problP-m. The Landlord and Tenant Act is p,ood.

It is r,rent :l.f you nre livin