ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 40A - 2:00 p.m., MONDAY, 11 JUNE, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EYANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOY NATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.WJ. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Char lotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vie SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Ve rendr ye Minnedo sa Rhi neland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boni face Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Vir den Kirkfleld Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Stu rgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnt erlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 11 June, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINIS TERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, I have another statement to make. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. 11 is my privilege to announce today the signing of yet another agreement between the Government of Manitoba and Government of Canada. As the House will remember, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba was first among the provinces to sign a new Economic and Regional Development Agreement with the Federal Government. This Communications and Cultural Enterprises Agreement adds to the impressive list of economic initiatives signed to date, reinforcing this government's well-defined vision for Manitoba. These agreements are strengthening our economic base, as well as broadening and sustaining our recovery.

I am particularly proud to announce the successful negotiation of this agreement with the Government of Canada, given the fact that it Is the first ever agreement on Communications and Cultural Enterprises. The agreement calls for the investment of a total of $21 million. The Government of Manitoba will be contributing a total of $8 million through the Jobs Fund; the Government of Canada is contributing $13 million directly to the agreement, and in addition has committed $10 million to the province through Telefllm Canada. This makes it, in effect, a $3 1 million agreement.

There are three primary sections to this agreement: the first deals with communications and information technology in which projects will be initiated with the potential to develop new industries or to strengthen existing industries with significant growth in high quality jobs. The second sector has a number of components concerning cultural enterprises infrastructure development including the establishment of an advisory committee on film, video and audio production capabilities and skills development facilities.

Initiatives will also be taken in the area of skills development facilities and the development of an ethnocultural communications centre. The third sector of the agreement, Mr. Speaker, deals with cultural enterprises development with programs In the areas of film, publishing and the recording industry. This agreement, Mr.

Speaker, will make an important contribution to the development of strong, independent communications and cultural industries in Manitoba, an important component of our long-term development strategy, one which will place Manitoba even further along the road of economic growth and to economic stability. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This is a welcome announcement. lt isn't really that new, because the Minister did kind of hint that he was working on this type of a particular agreement while we were in his Estimates and there was a certain reference to his negotiations in his opening statement. So it is not entirely a new announcement, although it is a brand new agreement that has been signed. Mr. Speaker, it's always good to sign agreements with the Federal Government as this party did when we were in government, the Enterprise Manitoba, Destination Manitoba Agreements, which were very successful agreements.

If the Minister would be kind enough, when he has them ready, to lay down the regulations regarding the conditions that this money will be used and turned over to the private industry, we would be very pleased to see it, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. M.B. DOLIN introduced Bill No. · 22,

An Act to amend The Labour Relations Act and various other Acts of the Legislature. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Pursuant to Rule 84, I have an explanatory statement regarding the introduction of Bill 22. Copies of the bill and explanatory notes will be distributed to members of the House. In May of 1983, the Manitoba Government commissioned a review of the province 's labour legislation.

In the course of that review, my department received a number of written presentations, conducted public hearings and met with members of the province's industrial relations community. At the seme time, I, as Minister of Labour, held several consultative meetings with employer and employee representatives. In April of 1984, the government published a White Paper on proposed changes In Manitoba's labour legislation. The publication of that paper was followed by another series of meetings with representatives of the industrial relations community.

Much of the bill that I have introduced today is based on the April White 1774

Mondey. 11 June, 1884 Paper and the concerns expressed during the various consultativ e meetings. Mr.

Speaker, Bill 22 proposes to grant the Manitoba Labour Board greater independence and increased resp onsibil ity. lt is proposed that the board's tripa rtite makeup be retained; that the chair and vice-chair be appointed for five to seven year terms; that the board have the ability and res ponsibility to provide more guidance and information to the labour management community; that the board further develop the practice of issuing written decisions; and that there be an increased emphasis on settlement of cases before they reach formal hearing stage.

In the area of certification, the bill proposes to establish a date of application system. Bill 22 calls for a determination of the true wishes of employees by signed membership cards as of the date of application. The bill proposes that employees who have signed cards be permitted to change their minds up to the date of applicatio n and th at th e board hear any objections regarding improprieties in the way in which the cards were solicited. Mr.

Speaker, Bill 22 also encourages the use of grievance mediation, a step using persuasion in dispute re solution; and it is proposed to entitle the party initiating the grievance to refer the grievance to expedite at arbitration where the time limits are greatly reduced. A mediator is appointed and the case is heard by a sole arbit rator. Final ly, Mr. Speaker, much of the volume of Bill 22 can be attributed to the technical changes, bringing greater consistency to the act and to the consolidation of sections of The Department of Labour Act into The Labour Relations Act, as regards to the Manitoba Labour Board.

I thank the House for this opportunity to explain some of the provisions of Bill 22 and I look forward to questions and debate during second reading of the bill. MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? (Agreed) Agreed and so ordered. The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER introduced Bill No. 23,

an Act to amend The Queen's Bench Act and The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practices Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery. We have 25 students of Grade 5 standing from the Victor Wyatt School under the direction of Mr. Jackson. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Riel. There 'are 19 students of Grades 1 to 9 standing from the Countr y View School under the direction of Mr. Reimer. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for La Ver endrye.

On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Bill 22 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Honourable Min ister of Labour and it follows upon her introduction this afternoon.

In view of the fact that recent reports indicate that the Superior Bus Plant in Morris is going to be closing down, with a loss of 60 jobs to the Province of Manitoba, in view of the fact that a labour relations breakdown in Brandon will likely lead to the shutdown of a plant ·there, Burns, another loss of 120 jobs to the province, will she and her government not consider stopping their anti-business moves, anti-employment tack with this one-sided labour legislation that is going to worsen labour relations and worsen the climate for investment, and withdraw the proposed amendments to The Labour Relations Act so that once again we can look forward to stable labour relations and more investment and more employment in this province?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order. HON. A. ANSTETT:· Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Although I'm sure the Mini ster of Labour would enjoy an opportunity to answer the question, I think allowing the question, Sir, would set an awkward precedent. it's clearly anticipating a matter that's been appointed for debate by this House and by the first reading just approved moments ago and, Sir, the member himself, I am sure, knows that the question, as framed, was clearly argumentative. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Leader of the Opposition wish to rephrase his question? MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, at a time when labour relations in this province are considered to be comparatively good . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. R. BANMAN: That's right. That's what we've been saying all along. That's what we said. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, we're not talking about labour relations, we're talking about a climate for inv estment, at a time when labour relations are comparatively good, but the cli mate for investment is terrible.

Will the Min ister of Labour stop her war on private investment, stop her war on small business, and withdraw this proposed amendment to The Labour Relations Act so tha t once again we can have employment in this province? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is still argumentative. Will the Honourable Leader of the Opposition rephrase his question to seek information rather than to give? 1775

Monday, 11 June, 1984 Marva Smith Report - tabling of MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, as part of the

preamble today in introducing her proposed amendments to The Labour Relations Act, the Minister specifically referred to it's being based on the review having been done by one Marva Smith, a review of The Labour Relations Act in this province. That review having been done at public expense, having invited public repres entation, will the Mi nister now provide us with the interim report, the first-stage report by the Marva Smith Commission, so that we can know what the background is and know what the potential future changes are in dealing with this proposed legislation? Will she table that report? HON. M.B.

DOLIN: A correction, Mr. Speaker, I did not say that the legislation was based on that report. I said it was based on the White Paper which was up for discussion; I said it was based on consultativ e meetings; I said it was based on decisions made from that consultation and that is exact ly what it says. You will find there is no reference to what the member refers to as the Marva Smith Report in this statement. When, as I have said before, that report is complete, then we will consider its release. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speak er, in view of the fact that in the first statements of her announcement today in her introduction of the bill, she referred specifically to the Labour Relations Review, which was commissioned by her department. That review was performed by Marva Smith, that resulted in public hearings at public expense, at which many presenta tions were made.

Will she not table that report, so that we know what is the backdrop to that labour legislation and to this whole proposal to amend labour rela tions in this province, so that the public can know what is in store for them; so that the investment community can know what's in store for them and so they can have an idea just where this government is headed. Will she now table that report? HON. M.B. DOLiN: Mr.

Speaker, I think perhaps for the last time - because I imagine that eventually they will get ti red of asking the que stion - I will indicate that the report that the member refe rs to is not complete, the consideration even of what it was brought to the government in the first part has not been completed. lt will not be tabled at this time. I am rea lly disappointed that the opposition continues to infer that there is something more in the legislation than what is before them.

What I have put before them today, that legislation is what we are bringing forward and that is The Labour Relations Act amendments; the second phase is Em ployment Standards. The members know that and they know that clearly. To insin uate and infer something different than what Is before them is to say that the printed word there is not the truth. Farmers - assistance to MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speak er, in view of the fact that rece nt reports in dicate farm bankruptcies for the first four months of this year are up 50 percent over the same period last year, my question to the Acting Premier is, what is the government doing to help the farmer through these difficult times? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speake r, we share the concern about the growing rate of bankrupcty.

The Interest Rate Relief Program was a program of the scale that we felt the Provincial Government could sustain and all the other farm support programs are to the same end, but without a change in interest rate policy at the national level, we are limited in what we can do. What we are getting now is the fallout from that long period of sustained high interest where farmer after farmer in Manitoba had to go head over heels in debt just to survive. MR. H. ENNS: You said not a single farmer would go bankrupt In 1981. MR. G.

FILMON: In view of the fact that during the 1981 election campaign, this New Democratic Party advertised that no farmer would lose his farm under an NDP Government; In view of the fact that the measures they have taken in the first two years in government have obviously not been success ful; in view of the fact that interest rates are projected to go up over the next year, not down; what is the government doing, what are they planning to do of real consequence to help the farmer? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, 1,400 farmers have received assistance from the In terest Rate Relief Program.

At the time of the election, no one anticipated that the economic slide was going to be allowed by the Federal Government to continue as long and as deep as it went. Mr. Speaker, we have done real istically what is within provincial fiscal capacity to do, and have called upon the Federal Government to move in and assume full responsibility for what they alone can remedy. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Throne Speech refers to a desire on the part of this government to help preserve the family farm, and in view of the fact that a receiver in Manitoba, a Mr.

Copeland, said that it is usually the younger Manitoba farmer who is forced off the land by debt, will the government stop looking at its short-term responses to the problem and now look at a long-term approach that will ensure that they come through and keep their promise of making sure that Manitobans, particularly young Manltobans, can stay on the family farm? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I categorically deny that our program which has to deal with technological imp rovements on the farm with water supply, water quality , water drainage, soil qualit y, appropriate use of crops, appropriate marketing, is not devoted to the long-term survival of the family farm. Mr. Speaker, the financial equity liquidi ty question is one component of many in prese rving the health and the viability of farms in Manitoba. As I have said before, we are committed to do what is within provincial fiscal capacity to do. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Acting Premier is not able to give us any answers

Monday, 11 June, 1884 of value on this subject, will the Mini ster of Agriculture call a special meeting of the Standing Commi ttee on Agriculture of this Legislature to Invite presentations from farmers, from people from the finance communit y, from people involved in the agriculture industry to make their presentations and make their thoughts known so that maybe we can seek some long-term solutions to the real problems that exist out there In the agricultural community of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly appreciate the opportunity from the Leader of the Opposition to indicate to him and to many Manitobans and to some that we have been meeting with over the last number of days, with the Premier and a number of my colle agues, including members of the farm community, discussing many of the aspects and the programs that we have put into place to shore up a problem that has covered the farm community over and beyond long before this government came into power, Mr. Speaker.

The Leader of the Opposition doesn 't seem to understand the basic problem that farmers have been faced with which their party supported, high interest rates, Mr. Speaker. High in terest rates have caused some of the greatest fundamental problems tha t Man itoba and Canadian farmers have faced, Mr. Speaker. We were the first government to put into place an Interest Rate Relief Program, which has assisted, Sir, some 1,300 of our Manitoba farmers. Mr.

Speaker, we have in terms of dealing with the long-term structural problem of income security put into place two long-term income support programs on beef and on hogs. Mr. Speaker, over $32 million has been put in to support incomes of Manitoba farmers. Mr.

Speaker, we as well were the only western government to make repres entations to the Federal Government dealing with the fundamental problem in the grain indust ry, and that is the structural problems in terms of the Grain Stabiliz ation Program, the only western government, Sir, to support Manitoba farmers, to support Western Canadian farmers for structural changes in The Grain Stabiliz ation Act. Sir, no other provinces did that. Mr. Speaker, we have made submissions to the Government of Canada dealing with The Bankruptcy Act to deal with the actual closures in the farm and small busi ness community.

I am pleased to note that one of our suggestions dealing with The Bankru ptcy Act, and that is, Sir, that anyone w�o has made an offer to a financial institution for settlement, if that offer is not acce pted, it can be taken to a court to be arbitrated. That suggestion is being put into legislation. We are pleased that the Federal Government has listened to the Manitoba submission, and we hope that those kinds of cases that Manitoba is facing can be dealt with" through arbitration. As well, Sir, let us understand what is happening across the country. lt is not only Manitoba.

The Province of Alberta, Sir, the in crease in bankruptcies for the same period this year over last, Alberta is at 56 percent. lt is nothing to be proud of, Sir. But, Mr. Speaker, we have done much more and as much as any government in ... MR. H. ENNS: You promised this wouldn't happen, Billie. MR. D. ORCHARD: You should have told the truth in the election campaign. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, along with our programs of inc ome support, of credit, interest rate relief, buy down, we have spent more money on agriculture than any government in the history of this province, and we have done more for agriculture, albeit during difficult times, primarily in the grain in dustry, it is not enough, Sir, but we will do what we can. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that this government was elected on the promise that no farmer would lose his farm; in view of the fact that interest rates today are almost 10 percent lower than they were when we were in government; in view of the fact that their shore-up programs have resulted in a 50 percent increase in bankruptcy, will he not call a special meeting of the Standing Commit tee on Agriculture to allow the people to tell this government what they think of their programs and to allow the people to work towards some real long-term solutions? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, it reminds me of the Leader of the Oppo sition, when they were in government, they called a meeting on Churchill and that's all they did on Churchill. They called a meeting to discuss the future of Churchill up in Dauphin. Mr. Speaker, when the beef in dustry came to their government for assistance, what did they tell them? "You see the door, we have no assistance for you." That's what members of the opposition, when they were in govenment, said to the beef industry. Mr. Speaker, $25 million of action on this side of the House; $7 million of action on the hog industry; that's what we did.

We didn't call meetings. Mr. Speaker, I go around rural Manitoba meeting with farmers and I have been meeting and I will continue to meet with the farm communi ty, Sir. Mr. Speaker, members opposite want a meeting. They can have their mee ting. I think the farmers of Manitoba arr. very pleased to discuss their issues with the government and tha t is what we are doing thr oughout ivtanitoba in terms of the Premier's tour ann ually throughout the various regions of the province, and I intend to be discussing further issues with the farm community, Sir. Home Economics Program MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. 1777

MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Health. I preface it by saying that I recognize this question was addressed during the examination of the Department of Health Estimates a few days ago, Mr. Speaker, but notwithstanding that, anxieties continue to rise with respect to the Home Economics Program of this province, particularly insofar as it affects rural communities, and reports continue to come into me that that program is being severely cut back. I would ask the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, whether he can advise the House what is the real budget in health promotion for all the home economic activities in the province? As the Minister knows, home ec has been incorporated in the Health Promotion Department; it's very difficult to tell from the figures as to what is being spent on it. I would like to have those figures of the real budget, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: My friend is talking about all the programs of the home ec, so I would like to take this question for the time being and check with my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, and so on, and try to give the full information and reply to the answer at a later date. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that. I would say that I am not concerned about home ec within the Department of Agriculture.

As I understand, it has not been reduced, it has not been affected, but home ec within the Department of Health, my question is, Sir, as to what the real budget is for home ec and all the home ec activities that come under health, and whether that is being cut back, whether the directorate of home economics is being downgraded, whether the per diem budget for home ec and health has been cut, just what has happened to it since it was incorporated into the Health Promotion Branch? HON.

L DESJARDINS: If my honourable friend is right, I thought that I answered his question to the best of my knowledge at the time. lt might be that the Member for Fort Garry is referring to dieticians in hospitals. Is that the concern that my honourable friend has? lt might be that there are rumours that dieticians were let out by certain hospitals. The answer was our budget would be, the dieticians that are working for the department, I give that answer. My friend said that he is satisfied with the dieticians that are working in the Department of Agriculture.

That leaves then the dieticians that work in the hospital. I wonder If I can get clearer information or an understanding of what the question is, who we are dealing with. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would be satisfied if the Minister would take it as notice. I assume he would have to take it as notice. The question is: Since home economics operations in the Department of Health have lost their individuality as a separate directorate and been merged into Health Promotion, the question is what is the real budget in Health Promotion for home economics?

My information is that the budget for home economics has been cut back by some $300 ,000.00. lt is impossible to tell from the Health Promotion budget in the Estimates, Sir. So the question is: What is the real budget now for home economics since it was merged into Health Promotion? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I will take it as notice now that I understand that it has nothing to do with agriculture or the home ec people working in the hospitals. lt is strictly with the department. I want to say, though, that I don't think that they have lost any identity at all.

I think it has been an improvement when you are looking at the directorate that we had, and coupled with the director on fitness that was working independently. There is more and better co-operation, but that has nothing to do with the question actually; it was just a statement made. I wanted to answer that and I will try to get the information as soon as possible. Gasoline Tax Act - charges MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHRO EDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On June 7th, the Member for Turtle Mountain asked a queston, which was taken as notice, with respect to prosecutions under The Gasoline Tax Act. He asked whether there were still prosecutions ongoing. The answer is yes, there are, there have been no changes in policy in the last number of years, and we have hired three Student Temporary Employment Program people for work this coming summer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speak er, Is the Minister contemplating any changes in that act with reference to the use of purple gas? HON. V. SCHROEDER: No, Mr. Speaker.

Pesticides - survey MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pemblna. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Environment, Workplace Health and Safety. Could the Minister Indicate what area of the province the departmental survey will interview farmers in regard to their use of pesticides in the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will take that question under advlsement. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister make available to myself and to other members of the House a copy of the questionnaire that the surveyor will be using in visiting farmers from door-to-door, as well as a copy of the survey that was used, I believe 1778

Monday, 11 June, 1114 by mail last year, to determ ine the farm use of pesticides? HON. G. LECUYEA: Whatever questionnaire is being used, Mr. Speaker, will be made available. Beekeepers - use of Crown lands MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MA. A. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question which I would like to ask of the Minister of Agriculture. I would like to ask him when the government policy on allowing beekeepers to place their beehives on Crown lands and particularly wildlife areas was changed? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. UAUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I will have to take that question as notice. I am not aware that there has been any change, but I will certainly check with the administration. MA. A. BANMAN: Thank you. A further question to the same Minister.

While he is taking that as notice, I wonder if he could inform the House, and maybe check with his colleagues, why many of the beekeepers who for many years now have used Crown lands and, in particular, in southern parts of Manitoba to place their hives, why they are now being called at this late date, when they have their hives and everything ready to place on this, they are being called by the Department of Natural Resources and told that they cannot place their hives on that property anymore. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. B. UAUSKI: Mr. Speaker, this is the first I've heard of it.

I am pleased that the member raised it. I want to investigate that matter and see what the situation is and as soon as I have some information I'll bring it back to the House. MA. A. BANMAN: Since time is of the essence and a lot of the beekeepers do have their hives ready to be placed in the fields, I wonder if the Minister could get back to us with some word as soon as possible. HON. B. UAUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'm assuming that the honourable mem ber has some specific cases that he is aware of,and I'm hoping that he will pass that information on to me so that I can check on the specifics.

Community Assets Program - applications MA. SPEAKER: The Hono u rable Memb er for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security, and I'm wondering if he has the application forms ready for the Community Assets Program that he announced last week. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, we expect them to be available this week. Attorney-General, Dept. of - appointments MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Attorney-General.

Could he inform the House as to what attributes or skills his recent appointment of a Deputy Attorney-General by the name of Mr. Elton, and an Assistant Deputy Minister, Mr. Larson, will bring to the Department of the Attorney-General that were not available from existing personnel within the Department of the Attorney-General? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. A. PENNEA: There was, Mr.

Speaker, as there certainly ought to have been, a national competition with respect to the positions which were open in the Department of the Attorney-General and as should be the case, and certainly was in this instance and indeed, In every other instance in this government of which I'm aware, a search for the very best.

I want to simply to the House that, looking at the needs of the department, we indeed are fortunate in having been able to retain, both from within and from without, the very best, and that is what happens when you have a national competition, which is honest in its inception and honest in its delivery. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Speaker, could the Attorney­ General advise who conducted the final interviews? HON. A. PENNEA: The final interviews were conducted by the Premier, the Clerk of Council, the head of the Civil Service and myself. Headingley Jail MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr.

Speaker, on another matter, could the Attorney-General inform the House as to the cost of providing legal aid to an inmate of Headingley who appeared before the Public Utilities Board to pro• 3St the rates charged to prisoners using the telephone from Headlngley Jail? HON. A. PENNEA: Some members of the opposition seem to find it amusing that people who are incarcerated still retain some of their civil rights. We're long past the 19 th century and the Middle Ages when persons who were incarcerated, and being in Headingley usually for relatively minor offenses, lose their civil rights.

The fact that that person had a legitimate concern to raise and, under the existing legislation or Legal Aid

Monday, 11 June, 1884 regulations was entitled to legal aid, does not surprise me, does not shock me. I don't know why it should the members opposite. Legal Ai d - coat of MR. G. MERC IER: Mr . Speaker , I wonder if the Attor ney-General could answer the question and if he doesn't have the information, undertake to inform the House as to the cost of the Legal Aid services suppl ied. in this ins tance and is this an example of what he was quoted as saying in a news report on Frida y, as the department has changed considerably from its original focus on criminal law enforcement. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The honourable member knows it is not a proper question to quote from a newspaper and ask for confirmation. The first part of the question, however, is in order and the Attorney­ General may answer it. The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: I guess sufficient time has elapsed since the Member for St. Norbert was Attorney-General that he has forgotten and certainly hasn't taken pains to refresh his memory with respect to the provisions of The Legal Aid Services Act.

Matters of the kinds that he asks are matters that are priv ileged by virtue of provisions of the act and I'm not at liberty - nor indeed do I myself know - what the individ ual cost of legal aid is, In any particular instance. Crop damage MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable Minis ter of Agriculture. I wonder if the Honou rable Min ister or his staff has any report or assessment of the crop damage that was suffered in the Parkland region as a result of the killing frost of Saturday night. MR.

SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKJ: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice and get back to the honourable member. Farmers - assistance to MR. W. McKENZJE: Regarding the serious economic problems of the farm community and listening to all the garbage that the Mini ster dragged across the floor tod ay, according to the latest statistics that I see, there are 5,000 of the 20,000 farmers in this province are in real financial problems. The Mini ster's not going to call the committee.

What solutions has he got to solve these economic problems that are so serious across our province and deserve the early and prompt attention of this Minister? HON. B. UR USKJ: Mr . Speaker , the Honour able Member for Roblin- Russell talks about number of farmers in difficulty. There are approximately 5,000 producers assisted dir ectly under Income Stablization in the Beef Pr ogram. Mr. Speaker, there are 1, 000 farmers under the Hog Pr ogram; there are over 700 farmers under the Loan Guarantee Program; Interest Rate Relief, 1, 300 farmers.

In terms of those that have gone bankrupt, 27 from January to April, 1984; in Alberta, for the same period, there were 25; in Saskatchewan there were 19, Sir. Those are the kinds of numb ers that we are assist ing in terms of direct financial assistance in the farm commun ity. I realize, Mr. Speaker, and this government realizes the difficulty that the farm communi ty has gone through.

Most of those that are in difficulty, from our asse ssment, are in the grain-related ind ustries and we have, Sir, as a result of last year, a resolution in this House and a direct submission to the Federal Agriculture Committee , made represe ntations to have funda mental changes made to The Western Grain Stabilization Act so that not only imme diate payouts be made, but long-term changes to the benefit of individual farmers. Those changes should be made and we are doing what we can to bring in the Federal Government to be involved in national income stabiliza tion in the red meat sector.

There really needs to be a tripartite stabilization agreement, but there will be no agreement on Manitoba's part unless the national program Is at least as good as the present Manitoba programs. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, we again get the same kind of garbage from the Min ister. What is this Min ister and what is this government prepared to do to help solve the problems of Manitoba's No. 1 indus try, the No. 1 industry in this province, agriculture, my friend? And he stands up and says, I've given some money to the red meat sector. I'm talking about the agricultural commu nity, the grain farmers.

Are they going to be satisfied or what's he going to do? If the election campaign is called in February, we'll not . • . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I remind the honou rable member that questions should be short, concise and to the point and should not in fact be speeches. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MACC - Loan Guarantee Program MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Min ister of Agriculture. Could he indi cate the turnaround time, via MACC, for the loan guarantee applications from the chartered banks and financial instituti ons? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, in the reports I've had, the turnaround time is, I believe, approximately three weeks, but I will take the question as notice, and check for the honourable member. Careers tart MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Minis ter of Employment Services, I believe is 1780

Monday. 11 June, 1914 the correct terminology. Some two or three weeks ago, the Min ister of Employ ment Services agreed to provide sta tistics on the breakdown of Careerstart employ ment opportunities to the House. Could the Min ister make that information available? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honou rable Minister of Employ ment Services. HON. L. EYA NS: I am very well aware of tha t commitment, and I have discussed it with the staff again since the honourable member did ask the question.

There is some difficulty with changes of bound aries, and also with the office areas not corres ponding with the economic regional zones as deli neated by the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics. So as far as I unders tand, there is this technical difficulty, so that the comparison of the two years may not be as va lid. This work is going ahead and as soon as I get that table - I do not have it - I'll be most pleased to give it to the honour able member. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, at the request of the Government House Lead er, I would ask that the matter stand again. ORDER FOR RETURN NO. 3 MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information: 1. The number of drivers' licences suspended or cancelled under

Section 246 of The Hig hway Traffic Act in each of the years 19 80, 1981, 1982 and 19 83. 2. The number of persons called before the Registrar under

Section 246 of The Highway Traffic Act during the period October 1 to October 31 , 19 83 to show cause why their licences should not be cancelled or suspended. 3. The reason for each person being called before the Regist rar. 4. The disposition of each case. 5. The reasons for the disposition. 6. The number of appeals to the Li cence Suspension Appeal Board arising out of the canc ellations or suspensions under

Section 246 during the period October 1 to October 31, 1983. 7. The disposition of each of the appeals to the Lic ence Suspension Appeal Board. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank yo u, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we are prepared to accept the order.

I would like clarification from the honourable member though with respect to the time period; in view of the fact that there are between 400 and 500 such cases a month, if the member is after a representative period, if it would be agreeable to shorten the period from one month to perhaps a two-week period to expedite the retur n of the order because of the volume of mater ial to be collected. I would also like, Mr.

Speaker, to make it clear, because I believe what the honourable member wishes to obtain is a record of the dis position of each case he refers to in Item 3 right through Item 7, so that the progress of the cases, both within the Motor Vehicle Branch but also through the Licence Suspension Appeal Board, can be logically followed, so that the sequencing in the return would show ind ividual cases without, of course, the names of individual licence holders being attached thereto through steps three through seven in the return.

We are prepared to provide the information on that basis so the progress of each case can be shown, but I'm wondering, Mr. Speaker, if the member would be agreeable to expedite the filing of the return to a shorter ,time period in which to g�t a representative sample. MR. B. RANSOM: The latter part of the House Leader's explanation is correct, Mr. Speaker , and I am quite prepared to accept a shorter period, say, Octob er 1s t to Octob er 15 th. The purpose is to get a representative sample, and it is not necessary to go to any more work than is necessary to get that sample.

So if we could have it returned on the basis of October 1st to 15th, that's a good initial sample, I should think. MR. SPEAKER: Does that correction have the leave of the House? (Agreed) In the case, the order as corrected. Is it the pleasure of the Hous e to adopt the motion? QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank yo u, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I propose that the House would resolve it sel f into a Committee of Supply.

In the committee, we'll be considering the Estimates of the Department of Ind ustry, Trade and Technology in the House and Commun ity Services in the committee room. Mr. Speaker, I belie ve there may be an inclination to dispense with Pri vate Members' Hour today. If I have leave to do so, Sir, I would add that to the motion. MR. .PEAKER: Does the Honourable Min ister have leav� to dispense with Pr ivate Members' Hour today ? (Agreed) The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker , I would therefore then move, seconded by the Honourable Attorney ­ General, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be gr anted to Her Majesty, and tha t Comm ittee sit through Private Members' Hour today. 1781

lllende� 11 June, 1184 MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for Industry, Trade and Technology and the Honourable Member for Bu rrows in the Chair for Community Services and Corrections, with the understanding that the House would sit through Private Memb ers' Hour today. CONCURRENT COMMIT TEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES AND CORRECTIONS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The committee please come to order. We are presently considering Item No. 3.(c)( 1), concerning Community Mental Retardation: Salaries , 3. (c)

(2) Other Expenditur es, 3. (c)

(3) Professional Training, 3.(c)

(4) Financial Assistance, 3.(c)

(5) External Agencies -the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have had a fairly thorough discussion on community mental health and so on. If the Minister would, every time that we start, let's say, (c), (d), (

e) or whatever, give us an explanation of just exactly what has happened in that particular department, I think we can maybe move along fairly quickly. MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Minister. HON. M. SMITH: I will give a general introduction. I also wanted to say that you did enquire last session whether we had a copy of the organizational structure with the current incumbents compared to last year. We have those with the current names printed in, and we're just catching up filling in the former names. They will be ready for you directly, and we'll hand them out.

The Community Mental Retardation Program is a mixture of institutional care, regional workers who deal with individual cases, residences and activities in the community. The vocational or day activity type of program is not included in the budgetary side, but in the planning process, which we have initiated to bring more balance into the system between institutional care and community-based care, there will be co-ordinated planning with that program.

The main thrust of the year and indeed the years to come will be the building of more balance in the program , and the gradual im provement of the institutional program that has been the more traditional type of program. I think I went into some lengths last time to describe the process whereby we have a central committee with government and representatives of the main community organizations in the field setting down criteria for who will move out of institutions, where they will go and to approve projects.

Then in the regions, implementation committees will be soliciting proposals from commun ity groups and when a decision has been made to go ahead with a community residence and associated program, will be overseeing th e Implementation; so what we're putting In place is a co­ operative planning and program delivery system with government taking the lead, but working very much in co-operation with the private agencies In the field. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (c)(1)-pass; 3.(c)(2)-pass; 3.(c)(3) -the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: These professional training people, who are they? Are we talking about . . . HON. M.

SMITH: The recipients of the training are staff working throughout the field, sponsors of foster homes, community resident staff and community boards and administrators and sometimes we will draw on expertise within the department; sometimes we'll draw on people outside and just set up seminars and workshops for the ongoing training. That'll be an increasing part of our work as the community out reach activity progresses. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(3)- pass. The Mem ber for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask you, sir, when I could discuss the Manitoba Home for Retardates.

Would it be down in (e)? MR. A. BROWN: Right over here where it says Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Very good. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(4)-pass; 3.(c)(5) -the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: The Financial Assistance -it says clients behind there -this is $4,042,000, this is the money that would be spent in training these people? HON. M. SMITH: No, the training was the (3); this is Item (4) and it's actually per diems that are given to the residences, 42 residences in the community serving 306 residents. There's also four residences with an extra capacity of 30 that are in the process of opening.

These residences receive per diems for their retarded adults in relation to their need level, the requirement they have for social skills development and self-help skills and there is a carefully reviewed per diem; and so the residences, In a sense - they only get the money when they have a bed occupied and they would get paid on the basis of the level of need <;llent that they have. MR. A. BROWN: These four new group homes or whatever you want to call them, you said they were in the process of opening. Have places been found for them yet? If so, could the Minister tell me where they are going to be located? HON.

M. SMITH: WinnServ, the 181 Oxford Street, which you know had a bit of a rough time through the city zoning, but after a few appeals and so on and a lot of community support it has finally received the go­ ahead -eight beds there. That's operated by WinnServ. There is another six-bed home operated by WinnServ. We haven't a location yet. This sort of project has been approved in principle, but the specific location hasn't been determined. There are nine beds approved for Gimll, and seven in Selkirk. 1782

Mondar, 11 June, 1884 MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (c)(3)- pass; 3.(c)( 4)- pass; 3.(c)(5)- pass. 3.(d)

(1) Vocational Rehabilita tion: Salaries, 3.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures, 3.(d)

(3) Financial Assistance, 3.(d)

(4) External Agencies - Madam Mini ster. HON. M. SMITH: As I said earlier, the Vocational Rehabil itation services are tightly lin ked to the commu nity residences. We have an assortment of workshops and day activity programs throughout the province: 24 occupational activity centres, three evaluation and train ing centres, thr ee sheltered employment busine sses providing special workshop programs. This is not a sufficient network to meet all the needs, and we will require expansion going hand­ in-hand with the movement out of North Grove.

Again depending on the ability level of the pers on, they will receive assess ment and training and, wherever possible, job placement in the community at large. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)(1) - pass; 3.(d)(2)- pass; 3.(d)(3) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I see that under this particular item that assistance is given to the physically and mentally disabled. I suppose a part of this item, this $4 million, would be going to either one of them. Can the Minis ter give me a breakdown between assistance going out to the physically handicapped and to the mentally disabled? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Chairman, this is one of the elements of the total system that is still in a bit of patchwork situation, because mentally ill people come under Health. lt has been debated as to when they move out into occupational activity centres, should they come unde r Health or should th ey come un der Community Services. At the moment, we are moving to co-ordinate these types of services through our Social Resource Committee. We are funding Doray and Eden out in Winkl er, but 1 think the other centres which deal with post-mentally ill are funded by Health.

Sometimes, in the smaller centres, you will get the same clients in together, but it is still debatable whether it's appropriate to mix, because in general the post mentally ill have a higher functioning, but are less able to take stress or perhaps less predictable in terms of steady work output, so their needs are somewhat different, but, as I say, it's an area that we are unde rta king a reveiw and consultation with the volunteer groups in the field to see if we can come up with a bit of a blueprint for the future.

We do operate under a cost-shared program from the Federal Government, it's been in since 1958, and it is getting a lot of critic al review by consumer groups right across the country and by advocacy groups. We are in the middle of a three-year renewal of that agreement, so before we know it, we will be looking at its successor and we would like to develop a bit of a perspective on that so we can play a role in perhaps influencing some changes in the federal funding. MR. A. BROWN: I was not aware really that Eden was receiving any assistance from Community Services.

I thought the total thing was being financed, other than through churches, by the Department of Health. Can the Mini ster tell me which portion of Eden would be fin anced under this, which program? HON. M. SMITH: We will secure that information for you as soon as we can. I don't have the specific breakdown at this moment, but we will get it for you in a few min utes. We generally pay a monthly fee for each dis abled perso n. We cover transportation as well as the day activity. MR. A. BROWN: I suppose ARM Industries in Brandon would be also funded either under this or under the next particular item.

I wonder if the Minis ter can give me an update. They were in considerable difficulty over there in the beginning of the year. Has that difficulty been resolved ? Are they now more or less solvent or what is happening with ARM Ind ustries? HON. M. SMITH: ARM was run by a private board and they were operating one of the busine ss-oriented workshops where they attempted, through securing busi ness contracts, to break even or secure a slight profit. They also had a training and assess ment portion.

Partly because of the declining e<.onomy In the last few years and partly because of Brandon being a smaller centre than Winnipeg and finding it a little more difficult to get an appropriate mix of sub-contracting to do, they were accumulating a deficit. lt was not only accumulating, but it was accelerating in its amount and the board were getting worried that they might have personal liability for that debt; so they were very eager for us to resolve that problem.

We had backed their debt for a couple of years, we were concerned too, because the situation was not improving, so after prolonged negotiation we dissolved that board as of December 31s t last year and are now running it directly by the government. The future of the workshop is open for decision.

We're trying to manage the financ ial side of it initially and then make a thorough assessment as to what its future is. lt's true that some of these types of activity centres can operate as a busi ness - they can when times are good and they may encounter some difficulty when times are bad, but they operate near the break-even level, but others, because of the nature of their personnel or of their workers, some of the more highly functioning people are moved on into commun ity-based jobs, so they're almost always dealing with people that are learning skills or fairly li mited in their ability to learn skills, so expecting full productivity from them is a problem.

We have appointed a negotiator to plan for the orderly rep. yment of debts. As of January 3 this year, all croditors of ARM Indus tries are to be paid. We issued $1 7,000 in repayments before the end of 1983 and $80,900 was issued in trade credit or repayments before the end of'83. One hundred and eight y-four thousand is committed in the current year to pay the operating loan of $11 0,000 and mortgage payment of $73,000; $1 45,000 is committed in fisc a1'85 to make second payment of the mortgage and approximately $30,000 is committed for fiscal 1986 to meet the last mortgage paym ent. 1783

Monday, 11 June, 1184 I have some more information on the type of business contracts that they're currently operating on. There's been no risk or venture capital expended since January 1 of this year. The largest manufacturing and assembly contracts have been for summer picnic tables, including some large orders from Canadian Tire and from Home Hardware. A number of smaller contracts have been secured, including engraving, a cafe teria operation sub-contr act at the Brandon Mental Health Centre.

As at the end of May, it is estimated that the income generated from contracts could carry the sheltered emp loyee payroll into August'84. Securing the contracts is, of course, a high priority for the organization. MR. A. BROWN: Is the department ever helping these workshops with marketing? I notice that in Altona, where they are making stepladders, they have quite a surplus of stepladders on hand at the present time and it is a big concern of theirs. Is the Min ister's department giving any assistance with market ing, or are they entirely on their own? HON. M.

SMITH: When I was in my previous min istry, we spent quite a lot of time trea ting it as a small business and loaning them a busi ness consultant who could look on the one side at their management and production methods and on the other side at their marketing. There were quite a few leads followed up on and quite a few re commendations made, but the combination of slow market and accumulated deficits just made it a situation that could not be resolved .

There was the potential of a large sale if there had been money to buy equipment ahead of time, but the credit at the bank had degenerated because of the accumulated deficit, so it was too big a risk for the previous board to be able to undertake. That was when they felt that the options available to them were limit ed and they asked us to assume res ponsibili ty. Certainly, as I mentioned I think last day, we are aware of the workshops which are more success ful than others in securing orders and in marketing their product, but it varies a lot from place to place and from the type of workers that are there.

However, we do think there is much imagi native work yet to be done in finding partnerships with business and we will continue to promote that. Frank Kovitz from the Department of Busi ness Dev elopment and Tourism has been working along quite stead ily with ARM, assisting them in their management and marketing side. MR. A. BROWN: There were a number of outstanding accounts with people who had provided material and other things to ARM Industries. Have those outst anding accounts all been paid now or are there still some outstanding accounts? HON. M.

SMITH: I think I read out earlier that most of the trade creditors have been dealt with, but there is an operating loan from the bank and a mortgage payment that have not. They are scheduled to be repaid over three years. There was some discussion earlier about the trade creditors and whether they would get interest on their debt. In fact, they are not recei ving in terest. But on the other side, had this organization been treated like any other small busi ness which would have had to declare bankrup tcy In similar circumstances, those creditors would have only received a small number of cents on the dollar.

So I think the conclusion was that they are being dealt with quite fairly. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(dX3)-pass; 3.(dX4)-pass. 3.(eX 1) Institutional Mental Retarda tion: Salaries; 3.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures; 3.(e)

(3) Professional Training; 3.(eX4) External Agencies -Madam Min ister. HON. M. SMITH: Again, the institutional services are St. Amant, Pelican Lake, what we are now calling the Manitoba Dev elopment Centre. We've had a very large number of beds in this side. As we are attempting to reduce the proportion, we are also looking at improving some of the services there. The staff ratios will go down or will impr ove slightly at the Manitoba Dev elopment Centre as we reduce its population, and there will be some funding for facilities and program.

I would like to pay tri bute to the work that has been done by the staff in the institutions over the past years because, as knowledge has given us many more tools to work with the mentally re tarded, although there has been a lot of public ity given to moving people out into the communi ty, there has, in fact, been a great deal of improvement going on in the institutions at the same time. MR. A. BROWN: I notice that we are spe ndin g approxima tely $200,000 less on Salaries In this particular area.

Is that because some of the population already has been reduced and not as many salaries are required, or is there just less staff? HON. M. SMITH: The salary figure, the difference is largely because of the 27th pay period. MR. A. BROWN: Out of these - what is it? -three centres, has there been a substantial red uction in population at the present time, or are you just beginning that particular process? HON. M. SMITH: The totals at year end from 1979 to 1983, they've been showing a gradual reduction, 854, 828, 832, 830, 787. So we did see a substantial reduction in that last year. MR. A.

BROWN: Has any cost analysis been done? Is it going to cost more money to have them out in the community than to have them in institutions or vice versa, or is it too early to tell? Surely you must have some type of analysis on these. HON. M. SMITH: Rather surprisingl y, the per dlems work out at less in the communi ty even with transportation and day activity programming. The staffing of institutions becomes -you know, you're dealing with the three shifts. The staffing adds very substantially to the cost.

Again, when services are provided in the community, because they are of a more inti mate nature and closer to family and relatives, there is much more volunteer work brought in. But as I say, that is not the motivation 1784

Monday, 11 June, 1984 for making the move, but it is, in fact, one of the fortun ate results. Jt is one reason why we have a little bit of flexibility at this time even though overall funding is tight. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To the Min ister, there's a heading in our local paper that is very disturbing to me and to many people of our communi ty. When you were speaking to the annual meeting of the Registered Psychiat ric Nurses' Association of Manitoba,

whereas your program plans to elimina te -or I'll say, move - some 220 patients from the school Into group homes. This has created a Jot of concern by many residents of our community as to the number of patients that we as a community, a district, would be expected to care for in group homes. I suppose, Mr. Chairman, my question to the Mi nister at this point is, will we be expected to house a greater portion of these 220 patients who will be relocated into groups homes? Will we as a community be expected to house a large portion of that exchange of personnel? HON. M. SMITH: No. it's a good que stion though, because that might be the

Interpretation that would be given locally. In fact, the priority by region that we have asked the Central Committee to adopt is the regions where there is most willing ness among the local community and relatives to bring their family members back closer to them. So since part of the motivation for moving them out of a big institution is to facilitate that kind of communication with relatives and family and communi ty, it would be counter-productive just to move them into the Portage vicinity unless there were, in fact, family groups there who wanted to arrange for their family members to live in group homes.

MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, you just dealt previously, speaking with the Mem ber for Rhineland, in regard to the cost of this program. I am of the opinion - I believe it's the opinion of many people -that your proposed new program,

whereas you'll be es tablishing these here group homes throughout the province, the cost is just going to be unbelievable -the cost of this program. We all know that these patients have been es tablished in the Manitoba School for Retardates for, I guess in many cases, all their lives. I just can't believe that you can move these people into small group homes, and expect them to receive the much-nee ded care that they have been getting and expect ing from the staff of the Manitoba School, expect them to have that training and care that they'll be needing when they get into group homes, into small homes. HON. M.

SMITH: I sympathize with that approach because it se ems to make common sense, but when you dig a little deeper into the costs and the factors, you find that in fact is not the case. Running a big institution . through shifts and with the kind of staffing that's been there, heavily oriented towards what we call the medical model, it runs fairly high.

With some of the new developments in learning theory and successes in assisting retarded people to becom ing more self-sufficient in tending to their daily needs and in building rela tionships, they're finding that people can be helped to do more for themselves. it's not some thing that was envisioned when the medical model institutions were developed, but it is in fact a reality now, and there are examples of quite profoundly retarded people out in a mixture, foster homes, supervised apartment living and group homes, that have been enabled to function ver�· well.

There is a skill of what we call developmental training -behavior, management, social skills and so on -that is the more highly needed skill and that can be provided , partly by training staff In the community residences and partly by having visiting specialists come and assist the staff in tho se skills. In terms of which people would leave the Manitoba School, it's not anticipated that the current residents of North Grove would necessa rily be the ones that would move out.

What there would be would be a reduction in new people being admitted to the Manitoba School, to account for some of the decrease In number, and the identification of some within. Now there's a great range of ability and characteristics of the people who are in the Manitoba School and it's been demonstrated already. Quite a few can make the trans fer, if the appropriate mix of support services is there.

We 've added up the costs, the per diem of having them In the Institution over against the per diems of having them in a variety of community settings, with the transportation day activity and support services and it does work out as achievable. We have put an extra $500,000 in community mental retardation and an extra $200,000 in vocational rehabilitation to be sure that we can provide the support services to make this transfer of residents a reality.

As I say, the pace at which we will be moving won't be so great that, If we discover along the way that it's not working, we couldn't slow it down or go into reverse; but there is enough success in the field alrea dy, with community-style residences, that we feel quite confident that it's a realizable goal. There still will be over 900 Institutional placements. We're just reducing the total number from over 1, 100 to over 900. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, it's difficult for me to accept all that the Minis ter is saying.

When you speak with the people who have been caring for these people for years, they've been working at the Manitoba School for Retardates, caring for these people and they just can't visualize this tur nover happening, as an advantage to the patients. They just can't see it happening. First of all, for the majority of people that are patients in these schools, they require 24-hour care and you can't convince these people that they're going to get it. Tney're not going to get that care that they've been needing.

When they put them into group homes of - I don't know what numbers you're speaking of -eight, ten or a dozen into a group home, I don't know. We don't know what's going to happen with this program, what your plans are. But it's very difficult for anyone, as I say, who has been working with them, to accept this new idea. The cost factor, it will be very int eres ting for the taxpayers of the province and for communities to find out in the near future just what the cost is going to 1785

llonciQ, 11 June, 1U4 be, comparing it to the system that we've been so used to over the years. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the Minister what is going to happen to the number of employees such as have been employed in the Portage School. What's going to happen to their jobs? Are they going to be out looking for a new field or what's going to happen? Are they going to be turned out and away from employment? HON. M.

SMITH: There are several factors relating to the number of jobs; one is that there will be a slight improvement in the staff ratios at the school; the second is that there is quite a turnover in the Manitoba School and just by attrition, there will be a reduction and the numbers can be achievable. We're not going at a hell­ bent-for-leather pace. The 220 over three years is not going to alter the staffing required at a rate that's much greater than what we are currently dealing with just in attrition. The field of psychiatric nursing is one where the needs are shifting.

For example, there's a growing need for their skills in geriatric services, which are going to show an increasing demand for some time to come as we get the rapidly increasing senior citizen population, so that field will alter. But the requirements are being studied very carefully by the Health Department through the O'S ullivan Committee that's looking at the health needs, health training needs throughout the province and we're keeping in contact with them and we'll attempt to mesh our planning with theirs, but I think the changes will occur at a slow enough pace that adjustment will not be too difficult.

Back to the original part of your question though, I can understand staff who've worked in an institutional setting being apprehensive about change because they see the services delivered a certain way and I guess there's a tendency of all of us to think that's the one and only way it can be done. There have been, I guess, increasingly in the last 10-15 years, volunteer groups in the community who have been applying some of the new learning theory and technical aids and so on, in small groupings,-and have found that they can enable people to live in a more community-like setting.

Now some of them maintain that no one should be in an institution, that it only produces a more dependent behaviour than they might otherwise exhibit. Others say, well, there's always going to be a fair number for whom that's the wisest and safest setting, but there are other who really could, with appropriate supports, have the benefit of being more integrated into the community, out and about more among the general population, exposed to more variety of recreation and of just variety in their daily life.

If, in fact, that form of enriched life can be managed and the cost is not that different, why shouldn't they be entitled to that option? What we are proposing is a slow transition to more of that option but, as I say, we are not going so fast that we can't evaluate pretty carefully as we go. The decision won't be irreversible if we find it isn't working, but signs are now that with good planning and with due attention to the variety of needs that people have, that we can successfully achieve this amount of downsizing of the institutions. MR. L. HYDE: Mr.

Chairman, not for a moment am I saying that people who are presently housed in the Manitoba School for Retardates are not and shouldn't be included in our society. Now I can name you some individuals, who I know personally and have known them through over the years, that associate themselves with the business world in Portage at their level and are being accepted that way. I can refer to the ARC Program in Portage.

Why I venture to say - I haven't got the number -there is possibly two or three, maybe up to 30 people employed in this ARC industry- I haven't got that figure but I guess that would be close to it - that are doing good work and are fitting in. They are bused to the place of employement, they are cared for, they have their little dinner and lunches with them and are picked up at four o'clock and are back to their homes.

I am not for one minute saying that all should be housed in the institutions, but I am saying that there is such a percentage of these people who will never see outside of the walls of that school, will not see outside of that. They shouldn't if they are. HON. M. SMITH: There are 787 currently in Portage and we are talking about 220 reductions. So you see there would still be 567 places. Again, I guess I remain open; I have followed enough of the development of theory and practise in relation to disabled people and I have been amazed at what the developments have been in the last few years.

In some cases, it's technically to deal with people with rather serious physical problems; in other cases, it's different ways of teaching and recognizing how retarded people learn. There are upper limits, surely, but they are much higher limits than were previously thought. So I think what we have to do as a society is be willing to have people live in the least restrictive environment.

If we go about it carefully and thoroughly and make sure we are monitoring, again, we have set a target, we have set a process up that we think is responsible and that can accomplish it, but we want people to have the best care that they need. So If there is any development along the way that says this isn't working or go slower, we will respond to that; or if indeed we find that it is succeed ing beyond our expectation, we might look to accelerate. So our approach is to go forward carefully and thoroughly, but to try to provide more options.

Right now there is very little choice beyond the few community placements and the institutions. We would like to see a greater range of options to meet the rather wide variety of needs that our retarded population represents. MR. A. BROWN: Well, Mr . Chairman, I think my final question will be to the Minister. I am asking her just how does her department expect to acquire suitable locations for these group homes. How are they going to go about doing that when I have right before me, "Jubilee Group Home blocked by residents." I suggest to you, Mr.

Chairman, that this Minister and her new program is faced with this question more than she probably realizes. HON. M. SMITH: There is a problem of community acceptance, but it is not an insoluble problem. The very home that the member is referring to did find a location 1786

Monday. 11 June, 1984 in East Kildonan. The home on Oxford Street had several go arounds with the community and with zoning, but it has now been approved. There was commotion up in Virden over the location of a home. lt has now been approved. One of the processes that we feel we must pay a lot of attention to is raisin g the awareness of the community. Nothing seems to succeed like success. The best advocates for the retarded in the community are people who live near them and say well, we were a little apprehensive at first but they are there, they are now members of the community, and we are having no problems.

We are get ting increasing numbers of neighbourhoods where that is the experience. I feel that we have to face up to the fact that as a society we did put our mentally retarded off away with the best of intentions, but in big institutions out in the country in a sort of park-like sett ing, and most people are ignorant of what the needs and the characteristics of the retarded are. They don't see them In their daily activi ty.

They are out of sight, they are frightened and ignorant, and I think that is where gradual exposure, a lot of opportunity for the community to ask questions, to visit some of the homes that are operating and get to know the mentally retarded people is required. We recog nize that process. That is why we have said the regions tha t will get priority for the init ial development of alternative residences will be the ones where the receptive spirit, If you like, is at the highest.

This is where we do need the advocacy groups, the parent groups, volunte ers, because they have accomplished far more than government ever could in raising the awareness and developing that welcoming spirit in the communi ty. I, for one, have a lot of faith in their will and ability to do that. I was, Friday afternoon, at the Special Olympics for a couple of hours handing out prizes to mentally retarded people who were running and jumping and they were going a lot faster than I could, I will tell you, and probably getting 10 times the pleasure out of it.

I don't think any olympic winner took more pleasure in their success than th ose people did. They are being brought right into community recreation activi ty, hundr ed of volun teers there and 500 people participating. I, for one, just feel very heartened by that type of development and I think we have just seen the be ginning of it. I think it can go on and on. MR. L. HYDE: Certainly , it is a wonderful thing to be able to see these people progress to the levels where they can handle -we want them to see them do that. I think, Mr.

Chairman, I have asked the questions I wished to but there is one that I wonder if the Mini ster can give me the answer to. In their plans, what is the number of patients that are going to be allotted to each group home? Is it going to be six, is it going to be greater numbers than six, or what is the size of their group homes? This is a question that has been put to me, are we going to be looking to big homes throughout the differ�nt communiti es, sectors of our cities, or what numbers are going to be cared for in each home? HON. M.

SMITH: We have done our costing on an average of six, but included in that will be foster homes where a couple could be a co-operative setups and some possibly groups homes a bit larger , but we are not looking at probably more than eight. There are groups in the community who say even six or eight is too large, but as I say, we've built that in as an average costing figure. So it is not a huge development we're looking at. it is a smaller, more in ti mate setting with a foster parent type of ar.-angement, a live-in couple as it were, with some shift staffing as support. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(e )(1) -the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I shared some of the Member for Portage la Prairie's concern . We all remem ber a number of years ago when these mental retarded persons had no place to go. They were hanging around in the stores and on the stree ts. Now we have programs for them where, by and large, they are in some sort of workshop or some kind of training program. These have worked out very well. I think that, by and large, the retarded people, they feel quite happy about having a place where they can go to work. They feel as if they're useful members of society .

So I also have great reser vations that someone that is working in a workshop now is going to be placed somewhere where he will not have tha t type of opportunit y, and will again have to roam the streets or spend his time In the store every day or whatever. That certainly Is a great concern. HON. M. SMITH: I would share that concern if that, in fact, was what we were rec ommending, but I think what we've been saying is that we are moving people in their residential sett ing out of an institutional setting.

That's their living place, but we are co-ordinating it with planning for day activity and workshop activit y, trans portation to and from medical and support services, because we realize that it is a co-ordinated approach that is required. We also see a component of respite care to enable people to keep their relatives at home if they wish. Up until now, there is a bit of respite care. You can get a lot of money if the relative is -or at least the institution can -put in an institution, and almost none if they stay at home.

Whereas we're saying, if we have a flexible allocation of resource, increa singly people will be able to make a real choice either to keep them at home with some help, move into a neighbourhood setting where they get some ongoing support in their residence and some day activity, but where the relatives are close enough to spend some time with them and take them out. lt's a question of having that flexibility in funding, and a great many more options in terms of living arr 1gements. M.t. A. BROWN: I see the problem.

There is no doubt uuout it that we should do more for the family that has a member of the family that is mentally retarded . Possibly this person could be staying at home if some kind of funding or day care or whatever arrangement was made, so I agree with this. lt's just that there is that particular concern that, hopeful ly, we will not be seeing these people on the streets again. St. Amant Centre, of course, has the very seve rely handicapped. I wonder , are there any statistics available 1787

Monday, 11 June, 1984 that there are less of these severely mentally-retarded admissions than what there were, let's say, 10, 20 years ago? In other words, are we making any improvements as far as obstetrics is concerned? Do we have some kind of preventative program? That is really what I'm getting at. Is there a lesser number of these severely handicapped being admitted? HON. M. SMITH: There you have one of the paradoxes of improvements in medicine, because on the one hand we are increasing our ability to identify birth defects and conditions that might lead to them and produce safer deliveries and so on.

On the other hand, we are increasing our ability to keep premature babies alive and to nurture babies who are born with multiple handicaps, who in earlier years would die possibly in their first few days. So we are seeing an increase in the numbers of disabled. At the other end, we are increasing in our ability to introduce those people to a more varied and satisfying life, but none of that is going to occur without expenditure.

I guess at some point in time, it will become a kind of human rights issue whether people are entitled to the optimum sort of educational and living opportunity that they are capable of, but we are quite a long way from achieving the best that we know how to do now. The short answer is that the numbers of profoundly and multiply disabled are showing increases because of improved medical treatment. So we have a lot to learn about what is going to be the best way to treat those. There is quite a diversity of opinion out there right now.

Some say they must be kept in a very low stimulus environment in a hospital setting, almost In crib care; other people say that, no, they can be taken more Into a home setting, and there are teaching methods that can be used to enable people to handle them effectively. I think we are going to see a fair bit of debate about the most appropriate care. I think from our point of view, the most prudent thing to do is not to be doctrinaire about it, but to keep a lot of open dialogue going. There will probably be a lot of diversity.

Therefore, who chooses what is the most appropriate care will become an important issue. Families will have to make decisions about whether to leave children in hospitals or bring them home, and they are going to need very sensitive counselling. So I see the services to the families of the mentally retarded as a very important component in the years to come. Also the retarded, particularly the less profoundly so, are also speaking up on their right to have input into decisions. They claim that they are able to express opinion, feeling, preference more than we usuall y acknowledge.

That's going to be another challenge to our system, how we can incorporate that in. So there are a lot of issues around with which there will continue to be debate, and I think that's a healthy sign because that is often how progress is achieved. MR. CHA IRMAN: 3.( e)(1) -the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Are there any statistics between rural and City of Winnipeg as to numbers? The population is fairly equal between city and rural.

As to either, are there more mentally handicapped people coming from the rural area than what there would be from the city, mainly because specialists and obstetrics are not available readily in the rural area, especially In the North? HON. M. SMITH: We don't have those statistic s available here, although I suspect we can get them.

I think there was a fair bit done on the Maternal and Child Care Study of that very phenomenon and certainly, where you get poor nutrition or poor care at delivery or pre-natal care and often, just immediate post-natal care, you do get more complications, but we'll try to get what data there is. Again, that's part of the system.

In a sense, it's been reacting to demand rather than trying to develop a more systematic and preventive approach, not that we'll ever prevent it all, but the health field has been working, certainly, on genetic counselling and improved obstetric care and nutrition for pregnant women and so on, all of which is connected, but we have yet to get it into a fully co-ordinated system. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)(1 )-pass; 3.(e)(2) -the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I notice that (1) is Salaries; (4) is External Agencies. What is the Other Expenditures for? I don't want you to go into great detail. HON. M.

SMITH: That provides the general operating costs of the institutions. That would be all the maintenance, food, clothing, and heating. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)(2)-pass; 3.(e)(3)- pass. 3.(e)(4) -The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I'll go back to the same old thing again. If that is the operating costs, then what is (4)? HON. M. SMITH: That's the grant to the St. Amant, because it is operated by a private board. Pelican Lake also falls into that category. The main one that we operate is the Manitoba School and then the others, we give grants to them based on per diems for the people that they deal with. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)(4)-pa ss; 3. (f)(1). External Agencies: Salaries-pass; 3.(f)

(2) Other Expenditures­ pass, 3.(

g) General Purpose Grants - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Is this more or less a slush fund or what is this particular item used for? Is this grants that are not covered under all the other grants or what is this item all about? HON. M. SMITH: I wish it were a slush fund. lt's very heavily spoken for. I'll just list the groups that receive it; generally advocacy groups who are out there raising the consciousness of people and often providing some direct service. The Brandon Citizens Advocacy works like a Big Brother, Big Sister service to handicapped people, 1788

Monday, 11 June, 1184 mentally handicapped, and that's $10 ,300.00.

The General Purpose Grant to the Canadian Council on Social Development of $5,200; to Citi zens Advocacy Manitoba, Inc., this group recruits, trains and matches volunteers to work and, again, a day-to-day basis and assist a mentally handic apped person, $25,000; Social Planning Council of Winnipeg, $48,400, and again, it works to identify community needs and promote the co-operat ion of public, private and volunteer sectors; the Thompson Crisis Centre - this works with individuals who are victims of family violence, sexual assau lt, emotional trauma - it receives $77,500; Volunteer Centre of Winnip eg, $1 2,600 - again, recruits volunteers and helps match them to various community services; $20,600 to Women's Crisis Centres.

This Is sort of a maintenance service to the centre so that they're there, then they receive per diems through the Social Assistance ES Department for the actual per diems; Commi ttee on Wife Abus e of Manitoba, $1 89,500 - again they're developing counselling, support system, development of community awareness. Anot her, Community Projects, which developed during the year, we had $1 3,000 last year for priorities that emerged during the year and we have $20,000 in that this year. There's a repayment on the old Grace Hospital.

You may recall we converted that a few years ago into usage by Community Services and there's $20,300 for that; and then a group of grants to Indian and Metis Friendship Centres. There's 10 of them that we support, in Brandon, Dauphin, Flin Flon, Portage, Selkirk, Swan River, The Pas, Winnipeg, ly nn Lake, Thompson and Riverton. MR. A. BROWN: Is this the area where we would be discussing crisis centres and wife abuse or is that going to be coming under another item, under Child and Family Services? HON. M.

SMITH: I think it's appropriate to dis cuss it here. lt's perhaps some thing that should, in time, find a place under Child and Fami ly, but it's like a lot of those problems that come to Community Services, they've only just acqui red a group to identify the problem and promote programs to support it. lt doesn't seem to be exactly that the problem is new, but the will of the commu nity and the awareness of the community to do something about it is new, so we tend to put it here until we sort out what's the best longer­ term funding arrangement. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g) - the Member for Kirk field Park. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I have a question about the crisis centres. I believe the funding was $18 9,500 - the Committee on Wife Abuse. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, that's just for that particular comm ittee. There are, in addition, grants to specific centres and to services in the dif ferent regions. We've given somfi! of them short-term grants to carry them over. A lot of them were receiving federal grants that come in on a three-year basis on a diminishing rate and then they come to the province and want us to pick them up.

We haven't been able to pick them up on that same level of funding, so what we've done is given them some interim funding to get them through to the fall and then we've requi red that they work in co-operation with our regional staff to develop a co­ ordina ted program of public-pr ivate volunteer to meet the need in the area and try to get a co-ordinated funding approach. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Commit tee on Wife Abuse in Manitoba, I understand, has one rural worker. Are there other people out in that field?

When you talk about regional services, what are they doing and are they working the same field that the rural worker would be working for the wife abuse? HON. M. SMITH: I understand how confusing it is. The department has Health and Community Service Centres in the regions. Again, if you can think of the government delivering directly the kind of social services that tended to develop in the town and the cities through volunteer chur ch groups, which later became funded by government but were operated often by private boards.

In many of the rural areas or smaller towns, those services didn't develop spontaneously. So at a certain point in time, government offered them with di rect staff delivery. So when I talk about regional - if you took Dauphin for example, we have Health and Community Service workers in the Parkland area. What we have asked the local volunteer committee on wife abuse to do is to work with that staff and see If, in their task of dealing with health and different community services, they can't find some ways of co-operating so that there is a 24- hour crisis line support, some counselling referral.

Maybe some things would be done by the private group and some by the staff, but we feel we have to put a lid, if you like, on the total amount of funding that can be made available, so we are in a sense requiring that they develop a way of working together. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I would like to ask, Osborne House, how does that funding occur? HON. M. SMITH: lt is funded under the Economic Security, what was Social Assistance in this department, based on per diems for people who actually stay there.

The big debate, of course, that has been going on with women who work in the field is - it's funded under CAP really, the cost-sharing with the Federal Government - that CAP has always required needs tes ting, and needs testing is not some thing that is very compatible with meeting the emergency needs of someone who is escaping an abuse situation. Yet, we are reluctant to give ;> on the CAP funding without trying to see if we can't manage it another way. ppropriately , it sho uldn't come under my department. it's just that the wife-abuse issue, we've been looking at it in a joint way.

What we are hoping to do now is at least look at a woman who would come in, in terms of what resources she has with her, not in terms of family resources. If you start to put another financial obligation on the family at the time that the family is experiencing severe inner stress, you may only add to the compli cations for the woman. I guess it's 1789

- Monday, 11 June, 1884 a question of the funding mechanisms not evolving quite as quickly as the program needs. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Do the safe homes then come under your department? HON. M. SMITH: Any component that requires support for the volunteer committee that provides the network of safe homes would come under our department, but the per diems for nights actually spent in the safe homes would get charged through the Social Assistance, Economic Securit y. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The people who provide safe homes, are they paid? HON. M. SMITH: By virtue of the per diems, yes.

So that would cover their out-of-pocket food and shelter. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are the per diems the same for safe homes as they would be for Osborne House? HON. M. SMITH: That would come under Economic Security again. There are variations relating to municipal levels of welfare assistance, and provincial. You see, these homes, Osborne and so on and there's a Brandon shelter now and Dauphin -no, Dauphin doesn't have its own shelter -The Pas and Thompson, they have all developed at different times, and there's been no co-ordinated approach to funding.

That's why what we are trying to do is rationalize the whole area and get a common policy. One of the real complicating factors -and the people in the field who have raised the awareness of the problem have been working very hard the last couple of years. They have also managed to get these federal grants which are great as far as they go, but they are three years. They are on a diminishing basis, 100 percent of need the first year, two-thirds the next, one­ third the final, on the assumption that alternate funding will be found.

The result is, they come to us for the alternate funding, and that at a time when we really aren't expanding our services so much as trying to maintain, you know, in tough economic times. So it has produced a particular problem for us. Yet, the need is a high priority need. So we have been trying to find the most dollar­ efficient way, effective way as well of dealing with what is admittedly a very serious social problem. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Is the government considering putting these two in the same department, because it seems to me that to have a Committee on Wife Abuse and Crisis under one department and the shelters under another doesn't seem to make much sense? Here is an area that needs to be well-co-ordinated. I find it very difficult to see them in separate areas. HON. M. SMITH: I think that's one of the options down the road. Because of the way in which these demands come upon us, we aren't always able to make that kind of a rationalization quickly.

So what we do instead is set up an interdepartmental work group to make sure that we have a co-ordinated approach that way and through our Social Resource Committee of Cabinet. Wherever we find overlap or some sort of issue that cuts across the social departments, we review it in that committee. We are trying to ensure that our policy directions and our funding principles are compatible. There are two ways you can do it, either by having a method of co-ordinating or by putting them all in one department. We are looking at both options. In the meanwhile, we are co-ordinating through a working group. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I would just like to ask another question on safe homes, and I realize this isn't your department, but you are part of the co-ordinating committee. Rather than the safe homes, are they considering shelters such as Osborne House that would service a number of towns in a certain radius, say, 15, 25 miles? HON. M. SMITH: Probably, if we had been planning it from the government end, we might have come with that proposal. As it was, the committees that were identifying the need and improvising on a shoestring, came up with this idea of a network of safe houses.

The virtue of a safe house is that you only need to use it when you need it and in the meantime there is no additional cost;

whereas if you set up a residence that has to be maintained and operated with heat and hydro and all the rest, regardless of whether you have any occupants, and you can never run it at full occupancy, or you don't have the flexibility to deal with the enmergencies. So in many ways, given the level of need and the fact that it is fluctuating over time, the safe home network has been a remarkably innovative approach in most of the rural areas. it is probably only the big centres of population where the settled residents with all the overhead can really be justified.

I think we have stumbled on a good pattern, which is a mixture. MRS. G. HAMMOND: From what I can gather from talking to people in the field, it is a stopgap measure and that the women who are forced to leave their homes really need the support of other women at that time in similar circumstance, and that they are almost sheltered and hidden away in the safe homes. So rather than see the government heading in that direction, I think there should be certainly more study done in that direction because it's a stopgap measure at best, and possibly not the best route that they should be going.

In fact, I think that shelters should be looked at for some of the communities to see if you couldn't have them going, as I say, from a number of towns into one area because the safe home concept, while it will give immediate shelter, doesn't give the same support that women need at that time and I think is probably only a stopgap. HON. M. SMITH: I agree that, in the long run, we need more of an integrated set of programs.

The shelters in the larger towns could well become not so much emergency as sort of transition homes where the women who don't feel they can go back to an abusive setting will be seeking legal help, counselling, education program, employment training or whatever. Again, the programs that will try to get at the roots of violence in the home and deal with that, are all things 1790

MondeJ, 11 June, 18U which are desirable, but I emphasize, and I know that the members opposite will comprehend this, this new need, a new set of services has emerged at a time when we are struggling to maintain the services we have. The economic downturn has made maintenance of programs difficult and expansion extremely difficult. So what we are looking at is ways of linking existing programs, opening up access, providing the necessary support services as flexibly as we can, rather than setting up too many distinct and separate programs in the field. We wouldn't be able to sustain them in the longer run.

So we are moving prudently and hope to get from a stopgap situation into a more co-ordinated program, but I think to have moved too hastily and have committed too many dollars when we would have been robbing something else to do that, would not have been responsible either.

I should just point out that the reason the shelter costs have had to stay in the other department is that the funding is cost-shared under CAP and they do require needs tes ting. lt's the only way we can access that federal money and we feel, so long as our overall policies are co-ordinated, that it would be foolish to move it out of that program at the moment, the shelter component , and yet it's not necess arily the best location for the overall program. MRS. G. HAMMOND: During question period today, Mr.

Chairman, there was the question about legal aid going to a prisoner about his phone services, and when I see that sort of thing and see the type of thing that women are having to put up with, and it seems to me that jails are nicer than the shelters, I just find that there are probably areas that the Mini ster should be taking a good look at and try to pick up some of this money. I think it would be a far more popular program to take money that is expended in this way for legal aid, for prisoners talking about their phone bill, and put it into services for women who are in need. That is just one indication.

Certainl y, the advertising of the Jobs Fund is another area where there are funds that should be expended in this way. I think that the Mini ster means well. Meaning well just isn't good enough, and I think that there is money there that is being put out in many ways that should be aimed at a program such as this. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g) -the Member for Rhineland. MR. A.

BROWN: If I under stand the Mi nister correctly then, the Federal Government has been starting this type of program where they give the fur.ding for a three­ year period; the first year they will fund 100 percent, the next year two-thirds and the third year only one­ third. Is this correct? HON. M. SMITH: I am sorry, I was distracted for a minute. MR. A. BROWN: I will repeat my question. The funding, as I understand the Min ister, the first year it is 100 percent from the Federal Govern ment, the second year it is 66 percent, the third year it is 33 percent and the fourth year it is no funding at all.

If I understood this 1791 correct ly, then surely there must be a better way of working out an agreement with the Federal Government as to funding. Is the Mi nister working on this with the Federal Government? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, there are two programs that the Federal Government has been using, Canadian communiti es service programs and I believe last year some of their work development programs. The work development programs were on a one-year basis with it being unclear as to whether they would carry on and these community service programs are on the th ree­ year declining base.

We agree that funding social service programs in that way is not the best and we have written letters to several of the Federal Mi nisters and did raise the issue quite forcibly at the meeting of the Minis ters, the Status of Women, a week or two ago down in Niaga ra-on­ the-Lake; a meeting that I attended for my colleague, the Min ister in charge of Status of Women, and where I did personally , individually and at the general meeting, raise that concern.

I think the other side is to try and work on the CAP funding but that is a huge program and it's a longer­ term type of influence that we might have but we would appreciate any support in trying to get the Federal Government to develop a more realistic and planned approach to meeting this need. I think women's needs have been very under- recognized and undermet throughout hist ory, I guess.

That is why we are getting such a lot of stress and strain out in the community at the present time, but I think there is no substitute for patiently working it through and trying to build a system that has some coherence and logic to it so that we can indeed sustain it in the years to come. But back over the suggestion that we are somehow making our jails situations of luxury and that the women's shelters are horrible by comparison, somehow it doesn't square with my personal experience of the prisons that I have been visiting.

Maybe I haven't been to all the shelters yet, but I just wonder if the member has, in fact, been through some of the Manitoba jails recently to back such a statement. However, I respect that she also is trying by that example to dramatize the fact that there are many women out there in the community who are in fear and in desperate need, and should not have to put up with abusive situations in the home. I think we'll be working very diligently to try to produce a program that really does begin to meet those needs. MR. A.

BROWN: The reason why I was posing that particular que stion was that, between the Towns of Morden and Winkl er, the Federal Government, I believe it v, .. s. last year under a work development program, they paid for one person to organize and set up some type of organization so that you would have a safe home, which they did. But this year, there seems to be no funding, or the funding ran out or whatever.

Then, of course, they come scre aming to the member to come to assistance and to the Provincial Gover nment, I'm sure. lt seems to me if the Federal Government is going to start somet hing, then they also have some sort of obligation to at least partially carry on. I would hope

Mond•y, 11 June, 1184 that the Mi nister would be able to get some kind of arrangement with the Federal Government on this, so that she doesn't run into that type of program where she has no control over what is started or where it is started and yet is forced into a funding situation. MA. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)- pass. Resolution 37: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not nexceeding $58,765,200 for Community Services and Corrections, Community Social Services for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1985- pass. Item No. 4.(a)( 1) Child and Family Services, Adminis tration: Salaries; Item No. 4.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures. HON. M. SMITH: The Child and Family Services Division has been undergoing a major change in the Winnipeg component pri marily . This has to do with the rest ructuring of the service delivery from one large organization, CAS of Winnipeg, and two smaller ones, Western Region, where services were delivered directly by the province and CAS East ern, into six smaller regional boards se rvicing approximately 100,000 people each.

These boards, in recognition of the im portance of Child and Family Services being closely rooted to the community and to the local area, have been put in place through public elections. There are 16 people on each board, thr ee of whom are appointed by government, one elected by staff and the other 12 elected by the commun ity. Nine of the representatives are individuals who live in the area, and the other three are people who work in the area. Those boards have been elected and are in the process of training and preparing for trans ition.

Meanwhile, an interim board has been carrying on the work of the Children's Aid of Winnipeg. The funding that will be available to Child and Family Services throughout the province is gradually being shifted towards the preventive and family service end of the spectrum. If you think of Child and Family Services as extending all the way from support for keeping children in their homes, to removing children and placing them in institutions, foster care or adoptive care at the other end.

The belief is that with more support services being available to families, the Childr en's Aid Societies will be able to keep more families together and keep those bonds intact. Again it's a shift in emphasis, not a total change in direction. lt is building on a lot of experience and development that has been taking place in the field. The total funding in the area, there is a degree of extra funding to facilitate the transition, but most of it is being achieved by reallocation of funds. Included in the Child and Family Division is the Day Care Program.

Another program that is very important is the Family Support and Preventive Service Program. 11, too, is undergoing rapid development, not as quickly as people in need of day care would like but compared to other government programs and our fiscal capacity, quite a rapid change. We also fund a great many Child Care Institutions and organizations that have a role to play within the total Child and Family Service area, and again are working to evaluate their program and fund them on as rational a basis as we possibly can. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr.

Chairman, has the Mini ster met yet with the Children's Aid Society staff workers who sent her a petiti on with respect to the decision of the interim board to take a foster child away from the foster parents. Has the Mini ster met with the Children's Aid Society workers yet, who gave her that petititon? HON. M. SMITH: I understand there was talk of a petition, but, in fact, none has been forwarded to me and from early on I said I was more than willing to meet with the staff and discuss general policies and procedures and that meeting is scheduled, but has not yet taken place. MA. G.

MEACIEA: When will it take place? HON. M. SMITH: Tomorrow morning. MA. G. MEACIEA: Would the Mi nister explain why she will not intervene in this case? HON. M. SMITH: I believe the member is raising a question about a case that is currently before the courts. lt's a case that falls under the jurisdiction of the Interim Board of CAS Winnip eg and it's not the practice of government to intervene, nor do we actually have legal authority to intervene in specific cases. lt's my belief that we're dealing with issues that require legislative change, require new protocols.

We're dealing with how to make the total system more sensitive to and responsive to the cultural needs, Child and Family Service needs, of the Native community as well as of all the other commun ities, in recognition of the fact that we haven't, as a society, done as good a job in the past as we might have, not from bad intentions but from state of the art understandlngs, but that doesn't mean that we should stand still now.

There is much increased recognition of the fact that, for whatever motivation, our Child and Family Service system has, in fact, led to the breakup of many Native families, a very large num ber, sometimes with their children leaving the province or the country in search of appropriate placements and, again, that might have been the only options open at the time that was done; but I think now, with the great upsurge of desire and interest on the part of Native people to look after their own children, to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, economically, socially , and to play their important role in the Canadian scene, define their aboriginal rights and the whole thing, that we owe it to them to work along with them, to work out the most appropriate Child and Family Services. lt's not going to be something that's quickly or easi ly reso lved. lt's going to take time and patience and hard work on both sides.

I feel that the

part icular case referred to is one that has hit us in the transitional period and that the CAS Board are doing their very best to work through that case. I know they've been doing a lot of meeting and working on the policies and procedures and they have chosen to take a neutral 1792

MonclaJ, 11 June, 1984 role in the legal battle before the courts and the respective parties are pres enting their sides. I feel that for me to intervene in a specific case is quite inappropriate, that my responsi bility is to accelerate the development of policy and procedures that will enable us to deal with, not just the new cases of Native children coming into care, but the case of the 600 or so youngsters of Native origin who are in the system now. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster has said she does not have the legal authority to intervene.

I would ask her to confirm that when the amendments to The Child We lfare Act that are presently before the House are passed , will she not then have the specific authori ty, through the Director of Child Welfare, to issue a directive to any agency and the agency must follow that directive? HON. M. SMITH: That particular bill has not had second reading in the House. I'd be more than happy to enter into discussi�Jn of that at that time. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, that's a bit of a cop­ out.

The bill is before us; we can all read the bill and we've di scussed bills in comm ittees and other departments where they've been specifically applicable to certain situations. That's in fact what the bill does say, that the Minister, through the Director of Child Welfare, can issue a directive to any agency and the agency must follow that direct ive. The Mini ster has talked about being sensitive to the wishes and the aspirations of people. Is the Min ister not sensitive to a situation in which every child care worker involved, recommends that the child be left with the foster parents? HON. M.

SMITH: I do think you're trying to draw me into a comment on a specific case which is before the courts. I would like to comment though generally that I think the most appropriate and most helpful role for the Min ister at this point in time is to develop the legislation and the overall policies and procedures, so that workers in the field and agencies do have some guidance in dealing with the kind of cases that are going to come up. There are conflicts in aspirations and in

interpretations and waitings. There's a lot can be resolved through negotiation. Hopefully, we will be able to handle most of the cases that way, but I think for me to set a pattern now of intervening whenever there is a court challenge, because this is the case where there was going to be a court challenge on either side, whatever way the decision went, would be not helpful. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know what the Minister considers helpful. We have a situation where all of the child care workers involved in this particular case do not support the decision of the interim board.

Tl)ey all believe that the child should be left with the foster parents. We have a situation in which the chairman of the board has written a letter . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert should kno w the rules in this comm ittee. Rule No. 335, "Memb ers are expected to refrain from discussing matters that are before the courts or tribunals which are courts of records." MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm discussing, with all due respect , the respon sibility of this Min ister.

We have a situation, Sir, in which the interim board has made a decision -two members of a five -member board have made a decision -that has caused a situation to go to the courts, where all of the child care workers will go to court and testify that the board has made the wrong decision. The board won't even defend the situation. They say they're now going to take a neutral position and it's the foster parents who are being put through hell because of this decision. They've looked after this child since she was three and one half years old and every child care worker will support the decision.

They're being forced to pay a lawyer to go through these lengthy court proce edings because of these decisions; and the Mi nister is trying to sit here and tell us that she wants to be sensitive to what people want. This is absolutely ridiculous. it's ludicrous. The Min ister should ensure that decision of that board is changed or she should replace that board right now. To try to sit here and tell us we can't discuss this case because it's before the courts is wrong. We 're here to establish policy and the Mini ster should change her policy with respect to this matter. MR.

CHAIRMAN: We can discuss policy in general, but certainly not the specific cases that are presently sub judice before the courts. HON. M. SMITH: I think it is important to talk about the policy issues. The percept ion of the Native community as to what has happened to their familie s and their children is something that we may not agree with in fact, but it is a percept ion. So long as they see it that way, it must be looked at as well.

Their perception is that for whatever reasons, and from their point of view, it is often poverty, poor housing or a tempo rary difficulty, their children are being taken away and placed in non-Native families; that the children, by and large, are very much more heavily represented in the child welfare system than the population of Native people would Indicate; that they are in for longer; that many of them experience multiple placements or don't achieve a permanent placement at all; that some indeed are raised without insight into their cultural background or their Native background.

Their perc eption is that many encounter extreme psychological difficulties in their teen years when the questions of personal identity and cultural identity surface. Therefore, their perc eption of rights in terms of c ue, whether foster parents should have prime right or whether a Native family should, is clearly that a Native !dmily should always. Now my approach to this is that I can't see any such rule of thumb as that being any better than what we had before.

What we want to do is say that culture and the cultural appropriateness should be a factor taken into account by the groups of people who are making decisions about children. Traditionally , I guess, we have all been trained to think that early bonding and prior care is the most important. lt certainly is very 1793

MondaJ, 11 June. 1184 important, but we do, when we place childr en in foster care, move them all the time. Some foster parents do apply for adoption rights, and I think what I have to work with, with the community of social workers, is what protocol is most appropriate. Should a social worker always check out the desire of a foster parent to have permanent placement or not? If they are not adoptive parents, like what are the parameters of foster parent rights? I think those are the kinds of issues that I have to help clarify, because that is going to govern not just one case but many cases.

Remember we have 600 children of Native origin who are in some stage of transition through the child welfare system. They are wards of the state. They may be in foster homes. Certainly,. we feel there is absolutely no reason or right to Intervene in an adoptive placement. If a child has been placed for adoption, certainly I can never see us rec ommending that be looked into, but the prior quest ions are ones where cultur al appropriateness is somet hing that we're going to have to learn how to weigh it. I, for one, don't know the answer.

I only know it is an imp ortant factor, and I think social workers will also need to debate that. We'll need to come up with agreed­ on procedu res. Some issues may require a determination by the courts, because they are not just that clearly res olvable. There is difference of opinion on some issues with Native reserve agencies. But to put it into perspect ive, I should point out that Anlshi naabe, which is a reserve agency we work with quite a lot, 38 cases have been resolved through negotiation with no conflict between the city agencies and them. That is the preferred route that we want to follow.

Now, as I say, the agencies do work at arm's length, and they try to work out their own procedures. I guess what I would like to see is that we play more of a leadership role in getting those transitional procedures worked out, and I have asked the department and the interim board and the planning committees to address that issue as top priority. They have