MG-8048 Fourth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Spesker VOL. XLII No. 28 ·1 :30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, MARCH 17 , 19 93 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharo n CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard , Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS,Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon . FINDLAY, Glen, Ho n. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY,Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton , Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Ho'l. MITCH ELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEU FELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Ho n. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Bu rrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Moun tain Broadway Kirkfield Park Rin Ron La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rup ertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

10 68 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, March 17, 19 93 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTIN E PR OCEEDINGS READING AND REC EIVING PETIT IONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Cheema). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will oft he House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the un dersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHER EAS the principles of health care, namely the univ ersality and comprehensiveness, should apply to the Pharmacare program ; and WHERE AS the Ph arm aca re program's effectiveness is being eroded; and WHERE AS in the most recent round of delisting of pharmaceuticals, approxima tely 200 have been delisted by the governm ent of Manitoba; and WHERE AS the strict subm ission deadline for Pharma care recei pts does not take into consideration extenua ting circums tances which may have affected some people; and WHERE AS pharmaceutical refunds often take six weeks to reach people; and WHERE AS a health "smart card" would provide information to reduce the risk of ordering drugs which interact or are ineffective, could eliminate "double prescribing," and could also be used to pur chase pharmaceuticals on the Pharmacare program, thereby easing the cash bu rden on pu rchasers.

WHER EFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the gove rnment of Manitoba to consider taking the necessary steps to reform the Pharmacare system to maintain its comprehensive and un iversal nature, and to implement the use of a health "smart card." TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am tabling today the 1991 Annual Report of the Manitoba Human Rights Commi ssion. The report has a cove r, and on the cove r, is an important message for honourable members- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Notices of motion­ Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Is there leave to revert to Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports? [agreed] Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 1992 Annual Report for The Manitoba Public Insu rance Corporation and the 1991 -92 Annual Report for The Clean Environment Commission. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Quarterly Financial Report, first qu arter, Manitoba Publi c Insur ance Corporation, and also an instructive booklet on Provincial Tax Com parison throughout this country as of 1992. ORAL QUEST ION PE RIOD Student Financial Assistance Program Alternative Programs Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the Premier a qu estion on student social allowance programs, a program that trained young people who were on welfare and provided them the kind of innovative assistance to get on their feet and have an economic futu re.

At that time the Premier did not answer the question. His minister did not answer the question in talking about tough choices. Mr. Speaker, I woul d like to ask the Premier, in light of the fact that he said yesterday that the decision to cut all the social services was based on alternatives for people, what alternatives for education and future job prospects will these people ha ve with the cutback by the pro vincial Conser1ative government that they announced on Monday?

10 69 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I refer to the member's words on Monday when he indicated there were difficult choices to make. This was one of the difficult choices. Manitoba was the only ju risdiction that had a special program which was in place for basically 18- to 24-year-olds for social allowances, and the only reason that they qualified was that they were students.

For many of these young people who are trying to finish their high school, they can remain at home with their parents; others can access other su pport from programs within the Department of Education and other sources. * (1 335) Social Assistance Training Allowance Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the rate of poverty and the increase in poverty in Manitoba under the Conservatives has been staggering. We all talk about collectively trying to solve that problem.

Everywhere we see the impact of pove rty affects all government departments, whether it is health care-even the Premier's own sus tainable development document, where he is on the board of directors, talks about pove rty and its effect on environme ntal and economic decline. Mr. Speaker, these cutbacks are affecting the most vul nerable people in Manitoba's society. There are tough choices. Three years ago the government announced in the budget that they would have training grants of some $7 million as part of the reductions in the payroll health and post- secondary tax, the payroll tax.

In light of the people who are most vuln erable in our society today, would the government reconsider its priorities and reinstate the training allowances for people on social assistance so they can get jobs, and reallocate that money from the corporate grants that the government has announced? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member opposite keeps railing away against the training that is being invested in upgrading the hum an resou rces capabi lity of hu ndreds of corporations and companies in Manitoba.

This is something that every government in Canada and throughout the developed world is attempting to do, is to get those corporations to invest in the upgrading of their human resources capital, to 'invest in training, invest in education. This gove rnment came up with an inno vative program to do that. It has been working. There have been thousands and thousands of Manitobans who have been trained and benefited from that program . Now, I cannot unde rstand why the member opposite wants that program cut. It just does not make sense. Student Fi nancial Assistance Program Fund ing Elimination Impact Mr.

Gary Doer .(leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the $7 million is being spent for many companies that are not increasing their workforces. Some companies that are getting this training money from the governmen t, were they paid for it before ? Mr. Speaker, it may be a nice luxury for the gov ernment to provide these training grants. Were they paid for that before ? In tough times, perhaps the people who are most vulner able should be protected, rather than the people who are the least vu lnerable.

My question to the Premier is: What is the long-term cost benefit for the province of Manitoba for people who are trying to get off social assistance to be cut off of their educational training and future job possibilities? What is the long-term impact of that cutback of the Tories versus the long-term economic impact of the $7 million in training that they are now pro viding to these corporations in Manitoba? Do you have the study? Do you have the facts or are these just your biases in terms of these decisions? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the only person who speaks just straight from his biases every day is the member opposite. We all know that he has an antibusiness stance that he brings to every Question Period, that he brings to every statement he makes, for every comment he makes. His biases show. and we know and unde rstand those biases. But, what he is asking us to do is to cancel the program that provid es an incentive and an encouragement for business- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Manitoba Foster Family Association Funding Elimination Impact Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker. the Manitoba Foste r Family Association have been negotiating a new agreement on basic maintenance

March 17 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 10 70 rates for the care of foste r chil dren . The Memorandum of Agreement comm its both the government and association-and I qu ote from their Memorandum of Agreement-to maintaining and enhancing a working relationship based on trust and good will. How can this Minister of Family Services say this in the Memorandum of Agreement and then cut the funding to the Fos ter Family Associat ion? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated to the member yesterday, one of the major functions of the Foste r Family Association was the training of foste r parents. I have indicated that child welfare agencies are responsible for recruiting and licensing foster homes, and at this time we are asking them also to be responsible for the training of those foste r parents. I met with the agency presidents and executive offi cers yesterday and working with our department and with some existing funding, we think that this is a workable solution. *

(1340) Per Diem Negotiations Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, why did the minister not respond to the letter of the Foste r Family Association of March 4 in which the Foste r Family Association said that they un derstood that negotiations were comple ted success fully on January 11 ? Why did he respond by cutting the per diems? Why did he respond by cutting their- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his qu estion. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, I indicated yesterday that even with the small reduction in the daily fee for foster parents of $2, Manitoba is still considerably higher than Saskatchewan and Alberta and has a similar fee to the province of British Columbia. There have been discussions since the ending of the Memorandum of Understanding that was entered into in 1988. There have been discussions of rates. Manitoba is still amongst the highest rates in Canada. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, the problem is the cut was nearly 1 0 percent and parents are saying how are they going to provid6 for these children. Funding Reinstatement Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Will the Minister of Family Services reverse the decision to cut funding to the Foster Family Assoc iation, a valuable organization which provides advoc acy, training and su pport for foste r families? Does he really believe that his department can take over all those functions being carried out now by the Foster Family Associa tion? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the short answer is no. We will not change that position, but the member has not been lis tening to the ans wer. The department is not taking over the training function.

The agencies who currently recruit and license those foster homes will now also do the training of those foster homes and foster parents. Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization Funding Elimination Notification Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I went this morning to meet in person with the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization, a place I have visited frequently in the past, but I wanted to go back today to meet with them with respect to the impact of the decision made by the Minister of Family Services.

At that meeting, they told me that the minister himself had been there for a visit about a week and a half, two weeks ago, and they had outlined for him the effect of their organization, the programs of their organization. Can the minister tell me today why he did not tell them then that they were going to have their funding from his department completely eliminated? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, we would love to get into the broader discussion of these issues in the Estimates process. Funding Alternatives Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, on January 8 the minister wrote to the Mani toba Anti- Pove rty Organization. He congratulated them on having presented a budget which was identical to 1992-93. He asked them if, in his appreciation of their efforts to really try and limit their cost increases, that he would ask them to look if they could take even a little bit less-fio indication that they were going to have no funding whatsoe ver. Can the minister tell this House today how he expects this organization to fund themselves when two-thirds of their funding came from the grant of the province? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the many inaccuracies and misu nderstanding that the member exhibits

10 71 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 would best be handled through the Estimates proce ss . •

(1345) Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization Meeting Request Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs {Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, today the Premier received a request from the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organization. The request was specifically that the Premier meet with this organization and its board. Is the First Minister going to accept this invitation or does he lack the courage to meet with those who advocate on behalf of the poor of the province of Manitoba? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, speaking of lacking courage, we have the Leader of the Liberal Party who lacks the courage to debate the Estimates on the entire Department of Fam ily Services. We know the games that are being played by the Liberal Party, and that is why they are the third party and sinking like a stone. I do not lack the courage to meet with anybody, Mr. Speaker. I will have to examine my schedule. APM Management Co nsultants Co ntract Tabling Request Mr. Dave Chomlak {KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my ques tion is for the Minister of Health.

The minister has pub licly stated that he will make public the tender and produce the contract entered into between the government and Connie Curran and/or APM associates. Will the minister undertake to table and make public not just the contract but the four or five contracts that are negotiated and may already have been entered into between the government, Connie Curran, St. Bonifa ce Hospital and/or the other institutions that our government is negotiating on behalf of? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, as I have indicated to my honourable friend, yes, we are in discussions with that organization. When we conclude and receive approval , if in fact we do, I will be pleased to make my honourable friend fully aware of the contract, its importance if it is entered into, etcetera, and the full rationale, should that process be concluded, to him for his information and for Manitobans' interest. As I speak to you, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend does not have accurate information, wherein he specu lates that a contract has been compl eted and signed. That is not accurate, Sir. Expenses Mr.

Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, can the minister then advise this House under whose auspices Connie Curran flew in two months ago? Under whose auspices is she flying in for tomorrow to speak to a confere nce? Who is paying for her expenses if she does not have a contract between the minister and herself? Is she doing it of her own free will? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I realize my honourable friend may not have a significant understanding of basic busi ness principles.

When any organization approaches any business, any government and attempts to sell their services and the advantages of their services, to do so they often come to those to whom they proposed their services. That is the case in which APM, Connie Cu rran has been in the pro vince at her own and her busine ss's expense. Surely my honour able friend would not expect the gov ernment of Manitoba to fly down to Chicago, if that was the case, and pay the expenses.

Surely it would be a good business practice to have those proposing plans and initiatives to government to pay their expenses to get here to try and achieve a contract with government. My honourable friend again is wrong in some of his allegations, Sir. •

(1350) Mr. Chom lak: Mr. Speaker, my final supp lementary to the same minister Is: Is the minister saying that no expenses and no monies, to this point in time, have been paid to Connie Cu rran or are being intended to be paid to Connie Cu rran with respect to all of the visits she has had up here, the six consultants who flew up two weeks ago and some of the negotiations and the projects that su pposedly are already in the process of being undertaken? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, su pposedly and allegedly and possibly and well who knows, for the member for Kildonan. Mr.

Speaker, in terms of the specifics of the qu estion that my honourable friend has posed, is the pro vince paying for any of the expenses to negotiate a proposal--no. Has the province paid Dr. Cu rran to come up and meet with nu rses and other organizations in health care in the past unre lated to this contrac t-yes.

Ma rch 17 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 10 72 I want to tell my honourable friend, the reason for that is that the nu rses of Manitoba and Canada brought Connie Cu rran to Winnipeg two and a half years ago to be the keynote presenter on nursing initiatives for the Canadian health care system. Mr. Speaker, nur ses of Canada have paid for Dr. Connie Cur ran to come here in the past.

In further discussions with nurses, we also have prov ided su pport to have her in here for a daiiy consulting basis a couple of times, but not, as my honourable friend alleges and tries to do the public impression that we are paying a negotiating cost. That is balderdash and false, Sir. Oak Hamm ock Marsh Wetland Development Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, this gove rnment does not seem to under stand that the ends do not jus tify the means with these cuts. Mr. Speaker, I have an

article from the USA Today newspaper. It says that it is the first in daily readership- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, this paper was sent to us by concerned environmen tal organizations. They are concerned about the poor reputation that this gove rnment is forging for Manitoba in environmen tal areas. I want to quo te Monte Hummel, who is in the article, of the World Wildlife Fu nd. They are concerned about the destruction of prime waterfowl habitat near Winnipeg, Manitoba, and they say: We do know that we do not like the process they used.

That is a quote from Monty Hummel. Of course, they are referring to the way that this gov ernment manipu lated the Clean Environment Comm ission hearings. My qu estion is for the Premier. Can the Premier explain his answer to my question, when I raised this issue the other day, when he said the people of this province want to have their wetlands developed, and how pouring concrete and sewage from more than two- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, in conjunction with the project , 160 acres of wetland habitat were added to the Oak Hammock Marsh in return for a dozen or so acres that were removed. That is the way in which wetland habitant is added and developed in Manitoba. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, I would like the Premier to explain the cost of cutting the organizations like the Federal-Provincial Parks Council and the Ecological Council as opposed to the cost of paving Highway 220, which goes into the marsh, and this as a direct subsidy to Ducks Unlimited, and what that cost the taxpayer- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Fllmon: I wish the New Demo crats could get their act together. Her Leader just yesterday condemned us for reducing hig hway constru ction. Now she says that we are spending too much on highway construction. Get your act together. Come on. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, I hope that the minister can understand that this is a highway in a wildlife management area and a parking lot in the wetlands. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for deb ate. The honour able memb er, with her question. Ms.

Cerllll: I would ask the Premier: Are they or are they not going to spend mo re money from the cu rrent budget coming up that will go to paving more area in Oak Hammock Marsh? Mr. Fllmon: What the member opposite does not understand, aside from her not understanding what a provi ncial road is, is that this project went through a process that was set up under legislation passed by the New Democratic Party in government, an environmen tal assessment, a review process, with full public hearings and participation of experts on all sides, the most thorough review of its kind that was ever conducted in this province.

Following that review, and following the analysis of reams and reams of material, a decision was made under the auspices of the act and the process that was laid out by the New Democratic Party when they were in government. All aspects of it met all the tests and all the requirem ents, and she fails to understand that. *

(1355) Pharmacare Double Benefits Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. This morning on CJOB, Mr. Peter Warren pointed out that a multimillion-dollar double-dipping scam is going on in our Pharmacare system, and that is in the com muni ty of Rin Flon.

10 73 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 Can the Minister of Health tell this House how long the department has known about this scam? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, this anomaly, or this difficulty with people receiving in effect a double benefit from the Pharmacare program has been, I think, fairly wide knowledge for some time. We have attempted over the last couple of years-end I realize that sounds like an interminable amount of time to try to come to a solution which can protect the taxpayers of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I have some confidence that we are approaching within the next number of weeks that solution, and it will be part of initiatives that will receive announcem ents in due course. Mr. Cheema: We were astonished to learn that the member for Rin Flon (Mr. Storie) was asking that the money received by the Rin Ron resident be diverted to another fund. Rather than correcting the problem, he has been reported as-{interjection] Mr. Speaker, it seems that- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, some body is very sensitive because they know they have not corrected the problem here.

Can the minister-{inte�ection) Well, keep on laughing for millions of dollars. Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The que stion, please. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. Can the Minister of Health tell us, what are the special steps he has taken to correct this double-dipping problem? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, there is one option which ultimately I may have to bring to the House, except I am hopeful that I do not have to necessarily bring in legislation which would require co-operation from all members to pass.

My preference is to attempt to use the existing regu latory authority, and quite frankly, Sir, that is where we have had su bstantial debate, over whether the initiative, which is inappropria te, can be curtailed via regu lation under the existing legislation. That is my preference because I think it achieves what everyone wants in terms of protection of the taxpayer in this instance. Pharmacard System lm plementaUon Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister of Health tell us whether now he will introduce the Pharmacare card system, and also the health "smart card" system, to make sure these problems do not occur in the future? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, yes, that is certainly initiative that is agaii"H will give my answer to my honourable friend. The announcement that was in this throne speech to introduce this session introduced the concept of a health card.

It is the hoped -for intention that we not narrow the introduction of that card only to the Pharmacare progr am, but that that card have utilization or value across the health care system, physicians' offices , optometrists' offices and others who routinely bill the system. I think there is some desire on behalf of many care providers. I recently met with the family division of physicians in which several of the members of that family division of medical doctors asked if we would in fact have the card wide enough to include their services, Sir. •

(1400) Flln Flon/Crelghton Crisis Centre Inc. Review Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, my ques tion is the Minister of Family Services. In a March 15 information release from the gov ernment of Manitoba, the minister talks about protecting the social safety net for the less fortunate in Manitoba. On that same day, the minister was announcing the elimination of the total grant to the Flin Ron crisis centre in Rin Ron, which currently houses an abused teenager and a family that was in an abusive situation, in a commu nity that is under pressure and for which there are no similar services. Mr.

Speaker, the minister has reported in the press to have said that there was a review of the circums tances in Rin Ron prior to this callous decision. Can the minister now tell this House who did the review? Will he table the results of that review for members of the Legislature? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, what I have indicated is that we have to look at these services on a regional basis, and when we look at the Norman region, it has similar services to other regions of the pro vince.

I indicated in the Westman area of the province that all of that area of the provi nce relies on the shelter in Brandon, but also resource centres and groups within commun ities.

March 17 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 10 74 I would also mention that one of the additional services in the Norman region is through the Victims' Assistance Fund. They have provided the RCMP with some funding to develop a victim assistance program in that area, and a half-time co-ordinator has been hired with responsibilities to access the shelter in The Pas or other services that may be required by individuals in that area. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, this minister intentionally misstated the facts when he suggested there was a review. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

I would tell the honourable member for Flin Flon that "intentionally misstated" or "intentionally misleading" does not qu ite fit in this Chamber. I would just simply ask the honourable member for Flin Flon to withdraw that remark. Mr. Storie: Mr. Spe aker, I did not realiz e "intentionally misstated" were unparliamen tary words. I did not say "mislead," but I will withdraw the words. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable member for Flin Flon. Funding Elimination Justification Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr.

Speaker, the minister left the impression that the department had done some sort of objective review of the circumstances in Flin Flon that require a crisis centre. I have a letter that I would like to table from Reverend Brian Bigelow, who is the chairperson of the Flin Flon Crisis Centre, in which he says there was no review, no consultation with the crisis centre staff or the board before this decision was made. Will the minister now acknowledge that this was a politically motivated decision that is denying the benefits that should be there to the women and children who are in abusive situations in Flin Flon?

Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, what I have indicated is that Family Dispute Services, the area of my department responsible for the shelter system, has been involved with all of the services provided by shelters and resource centres and safe homes and abuse committees throughout the pro vince. We have indicated, and I indicated the other day, that we looked at this on a regional basis and that the Norma n region has services similar to other regions of the province. Review Tabling Request Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker ,I call the minister's bluff.

Will the minister table any informati on , any internal departmental review, any objective review of the circumstances in Flin Flon that would warrant the withdrawal of services that are critical to life and death situations when it comes to family abuse in the Flin Flon area? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I have ackno wledged, as the member's Leader has acknowledged, that very difficult decisions have to be made within this budget and that our Family Dispute Services have worked with all areas of the provi nce.

I indicate to you again that the No rman region has services similar to many other areas of the province. Grain Transportation Proposal Method of Payment Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan Ri ver): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture this week attended a meeting with all western Agriculture minis ters, discussing the western grain transportation assistance. Can the minister tell us today the results of that meeting? I want to ask him, has he made a decision? Can he tell us what his position is? Is he now supporting retaining the payment the way it is or is he supporting the idea of paying the producer? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, yes, as we normally do every three or four mo nths, the min is ters of Agriculture met. Saskatchewan was there, Alberta, the federal government and myself. We talked about a numb er of issues, most particularly about the issue of the changing world environment for what we are pro ducing, where we are exporting it and the costs of getting it there. That discussion involved, as I say, the province of Saskatchewan which no w has a different view when they come to the table and are looking at the opportu nities of the future, and the discussions shall continue. Ms.

Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the issue of the method of payment is very serious for farmers. Will the minister tell farmers today what the proposal is that he is supporting? How does he propose that money will be transferred to the farmers? Farmers are being held in limbo. We have here a government who is saying that- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question.

10 75 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, what is really going on is that the costs at the farm gate are going up and up. I guess the member supp orts that. I do not support that. I want to keep the costs down. We are looking at the whole system, from farm gate to con sumer, how to reduce the costs so the farmer has an opportu nity to have a viable income from the overall grain industry, that is, a simple question like that. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, since this was a very sensitive issue amon gst farmers last year when the public meetings were being held and farmers were so divided on the issue, will the minister take his position to farmers and again let them have a say? Will the minister lay very clearly on the line what the consequences of these changes that he is proposing are going to mean to farmers? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, the member should speak to her counterparts in another province and find out that the discussions have not led to any proposals yet. There are a lot of issues on the table. There are many dimensions.

We have a changing global marketplace. More and more grain from Manitoba goes into the United States, does not use one dollar of that su bsidy. Maybe we should do some other things to promote the production of commodities in Manitoba that access markets that are viable for the farm commu nity. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, no proposal is ready to be taken to the farmers on any particular angle. The whole issue is very complex. I see a resolution later this afternoo n. I will be interested to see if tha :nembers of the old-think or the new-think, at five o'clock this afternoon- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Eye Examinations Insured services Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, the eye is the light of the body . If the eye is good the body will be full of light. Effective January 1, 1993, the government, the Health Services Commission has restricted eye examinations, every two-year period, only one eye examination. My qu estion is directed to the honourable Minister of Health. Will the honourable Minister of Health consider the failing health of senior citizens as one of the valid reasons that could justify ensuring adequate eye examinations within the two-year period? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the provisions and the regulations around that change in routine eye examination provide for that service. Mr. Santos: Mr. Speaker, I have a suppleme ntary question. What procedures are In place to mon itor the effect of this restriction adequately so that no eye patient with some concern not presently covered by the approved list of the comm ission will be placed into un necessary risk or hazard and fall into the cracks un der the regulations? Mr. Orchard: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend has to unders tand that a number of other provinces have pro visions which are similar. In other words, they provide as an insured service a routine eye examination once every 24 months. Our regulation in general provides that pro vision of service but has established a number of medical conditions for which Manitobans, whether they are newborns through to seniors, for certain medical conditions, can receive mo re frequent eye examinations based on medical need.

The last time I checked the responsibilit y of government and Ministers of Health, it was to try and provide insured services to meet medical need, and Sir, with this change we have some confidence that we have done that in terms of the conditions which are provided in the regulation to meet medical needs of eye examinations more frequently than the routine eye examination of once every 24 months. Mr. Santos: Mr.

Speaker, if, un der certain situations, there are certain medical concerns not presently recognized by the Health Services Commis sion as a valid medical reason, and if experience proved that there was a real medical reason, would the honourable min ister be open-min ded to expand, at least, all exemptions? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the process that we went through in terms of establishing the medical conditions which have been included in the regulation.

I apologize, Sir, in not being able to provide off the top of my head the medical conditions for which we are providing additional coverage beyond the routine coverage of one examination every 24 months, but glaucoma, cataracts and a number of conditions are within those. I think that sort of investigation has been reasonably undertaken by the ministry in co-operation with the profes sionals providing service.

March 17 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 10 76 •

(1410) St. Theresa Point Youth Court Service Cost Savings Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): My question is to the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae). St. Theresa Point youth program is getting funded by this government, a total of $100,000 for two years. Their total budget is $120,000 per year. There is a shortfall with their funding of about $20,000 every year and they have a hard time to raise those funds. They have asked the Minister of Justice to help them to prepare a list of how many dollars this program is saving the province of Manitoba by having the youth court in St.

Theresa Point instead of bringing in lawyers and magistrates. They cannot get an answer from this minister. Why not? An Honourable Member: He has been rather busy recently. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The St. Theresa Point Youth Court, as I have said many times-1 am glad the honourable member is notici ng-has been providing an extremely valuable service not only to the people of the commun ity but also to the people of the province of Manitoba, because indeed their services save the taxpayers of this province many dollars. I am unable to quantify that.

I will endeavour to find out if there is such information available, and if there is, to share it with the honou rable member. Interestingly, yes terday as a result of a sugge stion made by Associa te Chief Judge Giesbrecht, the Birdtail Sioux Band had a healing circle with regard to a minor criminal offe nce that had been alleged to have been commi tted. They went ahead and did that at Birdtail Sioux. We are very interested in seeing if that kind of process might be able to be used again in the future many times. Aboriginal Organizations Funding Elimination Justification Mr. George Hlckes (Point Do uglas): Mr.

Speaker, that is very encouraging to hear the Jus tice minister talking about supporting an aboriginal justice system, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry recommen dations, yet was this minister consulted and did he supp ort the cuts to the aboriginal organizations that would have worked towards implementing the AJI Report? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): We have been asking a number of important aboriginal groups here in Manitoba for over a year to join us in helping to put in place some appropria te responses to the problems that exist in aboriginal justice in Manitoba.

They have done everything but assist us, and indeed, we have had to work with communi ties that need services to be improved. We have been doing that, Mr. Speaker. St. Theresa Poin t is one example. I can give a long list of examples. Not so long ago, the Grand Chief of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs said, well, we are not going to support the government because it wants to improve in its efforts to improve justice services. I find that very hard to understand, but we are going to go ahead anyway because the people in those communi ties need better justice, and they are going to get it, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statements Mr. Brian Palllster (Portage Ia Prairie): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpo litical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie have leave to make a nonpoli tical statement? [agreed) Mr. Palllster: Mr. Speaker, I know all members of the House will join with me in recognizing St. Patrick's Day. Today is a day of great significance for those of Irish descent and for all of us. It is a day recognized and celebrated and proof of the old saying, I think, that on St.

Patrick's Day there are only two kinds of people-those who are Irish and those who wish they were Irish. Around the world, St. Patrick's Day has come to mean all things Irish and is celebrated and observed in groups and events such as parades, cultural celebrations or individually through something as easy as the wearing of the green. I would like to extend best wishes to all people in our province who celebrate St. Patrick's Day, Mr. Speaker. I would also like to take this opportunity to recognize the contributions of lrish-Manitobans.

They have long been a vital and dynamic part of our province's social, economic and cultural identity. Like many families from many cultural backgrounds, Irish immigrants often arrived in Canada with little more than a dream, determination and the clothes on their backs. Their work and toil has helped lay a foundation upon which Manitoba has built a strong, thriving and caring society.

10 77 LEG ISlATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 Amid the global, social and economic upheaval, we should pay tribute to those many commun ities such as our Irish Manitoba neighbours who have helped to make possible in Manitoba a quality of life in commu nity that is rarely matched anywhere in the world. Tod ay, on St. Patrick's Day, we ought to reaffirm our appreciation of the accomplishm ents of the Irish and our pride and our fortune in having lrish-Ma nitobans as integral members of our communities throughout our province. I extend best wishes to all Manitobans of Irish descent.

May they enjoy good health, fortune and prosperity for many, many years to come. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Happy St. Patrick's Day. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Can I have leave to ma ke a nonpoli tical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable leader have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with the member for Portage Ia Prairie in the celebration of St. Patrick's Day.

Although I go by the name of Carstairs in this House, of course, my maiden name is Connolly, which makes me, I think, to a very great degree, a full- fledged Irish woman, at least on my father's side. My mother's side, of course, was an equally 10 0 percent French component of my heritage. You know, as I was a chik:Hlnd I know the member for Charleswood (Mr. Ernst) has certainly been treated to this kind of lesson in doctrine and religion classes when he was a little boy. We would be held up the shamrock, and we woul d be shown that the shamrock was the way in which St.

Patrick defined the Trinity, that it proved there was one God represented by the one stem, and a trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The Irish heritage is present here in Manitoba, but I have to say not to quite the same degree that it was present in Nova Scotia, where half of the citizens of the city of Halifax were of Irish descent and almo st all of those Catholic.

In fact, one of the heritage of that particular city is their school system, which was brought to them in the first instance not through public dollars but through the funding of the Catholic school sys tem, which was the first public school system. That led to a tradition in which schools in Halifax are totally funded by the public, because they were originally Catholic schools and not public schools.

That is why we have the same tradition by the way in the province of Quebec, where there are English-Catholic schools which were originally Irish schools, and there were English- Prot estant schools as well, and they all got to be publicly funded. That is one of the traditions that has led, in this pro vince, to the support of Catholic school funding and through that private school funding. Mr.

Speaker, the Irish have, in fact, contribut ed not only in their religious upbringing, because of course Irish are not just Catholic, they are Protestant as well, they have also been known far and wide for the excellence of their singing voices and of course a very special form of dancing in the Irish jig, which is not often the one we frequently see that is danced but the one which certainly classical dancers dance with great proficiency. Mr. Speaker, the shamrock that we have been given today, I pay tribute to the nur sery for having provided them to us in memory of this special occasion.

Let me give the fol lowing Irish blessing and wish to those who are assembled here: May the wind always be at your back, and may you wake up in heaven a moment before the devil knows you are dead. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Well ington have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] * (14 20) Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I would like to put on record our caucus's commen ts on St. Patrick's Day. I am sur e I am not the only member of the House with Irish blood, so I am asked to be able to make these remarks. An Honourable Member: Barrett? Ms. Barrett: Doherty.

I would like to echo both the Leader of the second opposition party and the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) in their comm ents about the role that the Irish have played in Canada and in the province of Manitoba, and in particular the way the Irish com mu nity in the city of Winnip eg and throughout the province has been able to overc ome the divisions and the problems that face the Irish in their own country and have managed to work together to make our province a much stronger and more fun com munity.

As well, I would like to place on the record , as the critic for the Status of Wom en, the fact that the Irish just did a very progressive thing by electing the first

March 17 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 10 78 woman Prime Minister. I would suggest that is also a very positive move that the Irish have made in their own country. Again, I congratulate the Irish on St. Patrick's Day. Thank you. Committee Changes Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowch uk), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Economic Development be amended as follows: Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), for Thu rsday, March 18 , 1993, for 10 a.m. I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowch uk), that the com position of the Standing Comm ittee on Economic Development be amended as follows: Swan River (Ms. Wo wchuk) for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) ; Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) for Elmwood (Maloway) ; Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), for Thur sday, March 18 , 1993, at 8 p.m. I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowch uk), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: Transcona (Mr. Reid) for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) for Thur sday, March 25, 1993, for 10 a.m. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs), that the composition of the Standing Co mmittee on Public Accou nts be amended as follows: Osborne (Mr. Alcock) for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) . I move, seconded by the member for River Heights, that the com position of the Standing Com mittee on Econom ic Development be amended as follows: Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) . Mr. Speaker: Agreed? [agreed] ORDE RS OF TH E DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you call Bill 12, please?

DEBATE ON SECON D READINGS 811112 - The International Trusts Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), Bill 12 , The International Trusts Act;

Loi sur les fiducies internationales, standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker,! am very pleased to be able to speak on this particular bill.

It is an interesting act that, as was outlined by the minister in his introductory comments on December 14 , deals with an international convention adopted by The Hague Conference on Private International Law In October 1984, and essentially recognizes the essential characteristics of a trust in countries that are members of the conference and whose legal systems do not recognize the concept of a trust.

I think it is particularly appropriate that we ackno wledge, in discussing this bill, the importance of the changing face of our country, the growing representation in our population of people from throughout the world, the fact that many new immigrants to this country come from jur isdictions that are not under common law, basically those outside of the British Comm onwealth, and that it is important for us to keep up with the attempts internationally to, in terms of international law, provide greater consistency-in this case, in regard to the equivalent of trust.

I say "equivalent" because not all juri sdictions have trusts. It allo ws for individuals that do emigrate to this country, wherever they may come from, to be covered under this particular convention through the Province of Manitoba introducing this law. I note that we are not the only province that has dealt with this issue or is in the process of dealing with the issue. Alberta, British Columbia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island are also in that same situation. I find it interesting that we are similar to New Brunswick and Alberta in the sense that the act will not be retroactive.

That means, Mr. Speaker, that it would not apply to trusts created before Manitoba's legislation came into force . Mr. Speaker, it is interesting on this particular bill that the go ve rnment has decided not to be retroactive. One might ask the qu estion, in following through, the rationale for that. I hope that the Justice minister, if he can tear himself away from his other interests and activities at the current point in time, when we do comple te debating this bill, can perhaps outline why the decision was made not to introduce a retroactive law.

I ask that as a question, not making any statement or polic y one way or the other. I know he is a very busy individual right now with other activities. Well, I su ppose I could mention

10 79 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 it, but I think everybody in the House is quite aware of the minister's federal ambitions, shall we say. Mr. Speaker, I would point out there is some inconsistency in this matter, because when we are dealing with, for example, Sunday shopping, we have a bill that is, by definition, going to be retroactive. I asked the question because I think it is an important debate on principle that we are dealing with in this House as to the degree to which we as legislators can supp ort in some cases retroactivity and in other cases not sup port retroactivity.

In the case of Sunday shopping, we have a bill that has been introduced that is sitting, waiting to go to comm ittee after second reading, that has already been implemented throughout the provi nce. The police of this province are not enfor cing the existing legislation, Mr. Speaker. They are ignoring what would be considered violations of the existing legislation. The government is under no hurry to bring the bill in; it has gone through second reading. They have not scheduled a committee. I have a sinking suspicion here that they may actually bring in the bill after the trial period is over.

I do not know what leads me to think that, Mr. Speaker. I get the feeling that this may not only be retroactivity in the sense that we will have a bill that is passed, not just retroactively implementing something that is in process . We may have to deal with a bill that will be of historical interest only if it is passed, because it will validate what a!ready will have come and gone. What a bizarre situation. Mr. Speaker, I ask, in terms of the retroactivity, too, because I think this is one of the problems that the government runs into when it deals with retroa ctivities.

Wha t would happen if this Legislature was, say, to reject a bill that was being brought in retroac tively? Perhaps that is the reasoning on Bill 12 . What if, for ex ample, in terms of Su nday shopping, someone on the Conservative side, if a coalition of people on all parties got together and said, no, we are against this trial period? What would happen if the Legislature voted down the bill? Would the RCMP be retroactively prose cuting people? Would the government be in the position of asking everybody to return whatever they bought on a Sunday?

Well, obviously not, but it shows the kind of absurdity that one can run into when one deals with legislation that, as in this case, when I am talking about the other bill, would be doubly retroactive, not only retroactive in the sense of the trial period but the fact that the trial period would be ov er. I note that, Mr. Speaker. I think it is interesting, in this case, that the government has chosen not to bring in retroactive legislation. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) I appreciate hearing the views of the minister.

Madam Deput y Speaker, I know the minister outlined the fact that, as I said, five provinces have dealt with this. Many countries have ratified the convention, the United Kingdom , Australia and Italy, Luxembourg and The Netherlands, I believe. Also, a number of institutions in the United States have endorsed the convention, as well as the State Department of the United States, which has initiated the process for the signature of the United States. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am very pleased that this government is paying heed to international conventions.

I think it is ironic because this government does not always follow the international community.

We have seen the numb er of times in which this government has violated international labour organization conventions, has had the dubious distinction of ignoring the ILO on many occasions, the standards set by gov ernments from across the world, from the right to the left with all different kinds of ideologies, all different types of gover nment. * (1 430) This government will turn around on such bills as Bill 70, and as they are currently doing now, will just say, yes, we signed a collective agreement, but it does not mean anything.

We saw today in terms of foster parents that when this government signs something, it does not mean anything. We know that politically. We have already seen a numb er of the key promises of the government in the election that were signed, Madam Deputy Speaker, that did not mean anything. Who can forget the infamous commitment by the Premier for inflation rate increases in funding to education, for keeping the deficit in line, for no major increases in Autopac, no politic al interference in Crown corpora tions?

We have seen biodegradable campaign promises from this government, and we have seen their word does not mean anything when it comes to labour relations. I find it interesting again

March 17 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 10 80 that when it comes to international trusts there is no retroactivity, and they are living up to international obligations. But, when it comes to the labour law in this pro vince, it is another question. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I look forward to receiving perhaps some answers from them. I am reading the background of this bill; I am satisfi ed-th e di ffi cu lty in noncommon law ju risdictions because the concept of a trust is essentially a common law concept. It is important to a whole series of financial transactions.

It is important to the legal system. It plays a very important role. I do believe that it is important that we recognize the reality of Canada today that we are truly international, and I am proud of that. I think that one of the things that makes Canada special is the fact that we have people from throughout the world. That is going to increasingly be the case in the next 1 0 and 20 and 30 years, and I think that is to the benefit of this country.

I think it is important in areas such as this, as we have done for example in terms of pensions, that we provide for in terna tional port abili ty an d in ternational compatibili ty in terms of the kinds of rules and regulations that were put in place. This, indeed, I think is important in this particular case, Madam Deputy Speaker, because as the minister pointed out it also is important for a common law trust. The jurisdiction of common law trusts allows for them when they have international operations and connections to operate properly. One has to recognize that in Canada we have a dual system of laws.

We have the common law system, but in Quebec we have the civil system. I know that we have, within Canada, dealt with ques tions of compatibili ty and that is important. I really think that this kind of legislation is something that we should be extending. I think it is about time that this province adopted as a matter of policy fo ll owing international conve ntions. I mention the terms of labour legislation, Madam Deputy Speaker, because the sad

part is that we have one of the worst reputations in terms of labour policies in the world. I tie in the connection because I think that when one puts one's head in the sand in terms of international conve ntion, one makes a mistake. Canada has traditionally had either the highest or the second highest rate of strikes. We have had one of the most adversarial labour-relations systems in the world. We have had governments, including this gover nment, that have threatened the very basis of collective bargaining.

I ask the question, is there not clearly a tie-in between the fact that we, in our labour legislation, have one of the worst records with ILO, and we also have some of the highest strike rates, highest lockout rates and some of the greatest problems in terms of labour relations? I take that one step further, Madam Deputy Speaker. You know, Conservatives like to talk about globalization. Would it not make more sense, when we are talking about globalization, not to start just with international trust acts, but to start with labour legi slation?

Start by endo rsing the conventions of the In ternational Labour Organization, all of them, and abiding by that, recognizing the right of working people to collec tive bar gaining and recog nizing the collec tive bargaining process, not, for reasons of short-term fiscal or polit ical reaso ns, attempt, as this government has done, to not only violate in a technical sense those international conventions, but to fly in the absolute face, to be conde mned by the ILO, to be reprimanded essentially, which is the only persuasion one can have, which is moral suasion.

How can this government talk about having compati bility with other juris dictions when it reserves the right on a periodic basis, in 1991 and 1993, when we see again the policies of this government in terms of its civil servants and Crown corpora tions, when it ignores international con ventions? We have seen fascist regimes and com mun ist regimes. We have seen democratic governments.

We have seen governments of all stripes adopt many of those conventions, and we end up with a bi zarre situation where we have mostly conservative governments, but not exclusively, particularly at the international level, ignoring them. In fact, even federal legislation un der the Conservatives in terms of labour law legislation is mo re consistent and mo re com patible with international conventions as established by the International Labour Organization. I ask that rhetorically to the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae).

I look forward to his response, if any, in terms of when this bill completes the second reading process because I think it is very fine indeed to bring in this bill, and sub ject to comm ittee hearings and hearing from members of the public on this,

10 81 LEG ISlA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 obviously we do not have any tremendous difficu lty with the principle, although I know we do reserve judgment, depending on the comm ittee hearings, as we always do, based on public presentations to make our final decision. I hope the governmen t will do the same. As I said, Madam Deputy Speak.er, it is interesting when we have a bill that rejects retroactivity and accepts international conventions, that we have selectivity on the part of this gove rnment.

They do it on one bill, and when it comes to labour legislation, it is something completely different again. With those few comments, I know that the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomia

k) has some com ments on this particular bill. I look forward to his comments. We have a couple mme speakers, and at that time we will be prepared to take it to commi ttee. I would just say, Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope the government House leader (Mr. Manness), would call comm ittees soon. We have a number of bills that we have passed through. I believe there are three bill s currently which have been passed through committee. One of them, coincidentally, is the Su nday shopping law. I do not know why the government would not want to bring that bill in now when we have com mittee time available, and I know we will

schedule -and I will make the offer right now on behalf of our caucu s--we will

schedule any time, anywhere, that the minister wants the hearings on these bills. We can do it starting next week. Maybe the midterm. I do not know-{interjection] I am just reminded of the fact on Tuesday of the midterm break, most of us will be out in Brandon visiting the Brandon Winter Fair. Perhaps we could

schedule a commi ttee hearing on Su nday shopping in the afternoon in Brandon. What an idea. I am glad I remembered that. pnterjection] Well, I am going and I will volu nteer for the committee. If we give names of those going to Brandon, do I have the commitment of the government House leader he will call a legislative comm ittee on second reading on Sunday shopping in Brandon? Talk about outreach. What a tremendous opportunity. We could actu ally go and announce it at the Brandon Winter Fair. We could go there in our usual activities and announce it, redo it the following day.

We could tell the 3,000 or SCI people gathered for the various activities that if you have something to say on Sunday shopping, come on down the fol lowing day. Maybe we could

schedule it in the Keystone Centre itseH, Madam Deputy Speaker. What a tremendous way to take the Legislature out of the confines of the bunkers of this building, the mental bunkers, and get it out to the people. Anyway, Madam Deputy Speaker, when we pass these bills, I do look to the minister seriously to respond soon by getting these bills through to public hearing. We are doing our work as legislators dealing with these bills. We expect that the government will do its part by allowing members of the public to present on these bills now, not at the tail end of the session when we normally deal with bills.

When we are passing these types of bills, it is in good faith, and we expect the same good faith back from the government. Thank you. • (1 440) Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): I rise to speak on The International Trusts Act, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the bill brought forward by the minister. The member for Morris (Mr. Manness) asked whether we will be at the winter fair. We will be at the winter fair in response, and we would be happy to deal with the Sunday shopping issue on that occasion if the governmen t had the courage and the integrity to go out there and to hear the public on that issue.

We have been waiting for a government response on this for some time. Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise to deal with the issue of The International Trusts Act, which, to my mind, is an interesting piece of legislation. The whole concept of trusts, as you probably are aware, arises out of a reaction in the law of equity and a response to the rigidity of a common law in dealing with certain situations of conveyance of property and providing for distribution of assets and the like.

The common law was relatively rigid in this area and trusts were brought in as a solution In order to facilitate transactions and to facilitate commer ce and to deal with some of the transactions that were required in not only a comm ercial and thriving industrial evolving economy, but to deal with personal matters as well. We note in this act that now the government and the minister is bringing in

an act that would allow Manitoba to adopt the convention as recognized by the private international law conference in The Hague. I note from the commen ts of the minister that five ju risdictions in the country have adopted this legislation including the federal government and

March 17 , 19 93 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 10 82 that the legis lation is now before us in order to bring Manitoba in line. I do not, in principle, see any difficulty or any problem, Madam Deputy Speaker, in our dealing with this particular convention and its effect, which is being brought in in the form of legislation. In fact, there are a number of interesting questions that arise concerning international trusts or in their applicability.

In fact, the mi nister referenced in his statements in dealing in general with the bill that generally these matters can be dealt with by international conflict laws which are extremely complex and complicated and entail specific courses at law schools and specific expertise in order to ascertain and work one's way through the labyrinth of international law. This is an attempt to bring, by convention and by legislation in our jurisdiction, the appropriate law concerning trusts before Manitoba.

It is an interesting concept, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I only speculate briefly with relation to the generality of the bill , as is the requirement in dealing with this reading, about the passage of money and property via trusts internationally. I note that the mini ster said in his statements that we have a large imm igrant population and that many of these newcomers hold property or investments in their home countries, and in these jurisdictions they do not have common-law systems.

This convention will allow them, I assum e-if the provisions of the trust entered into, I would presume, in the home territory match all of our appropriate common-l aw provisions as they apply to trust, then the applicable trust law will apply in Manitoba. As I read the min ister's comments, one of the speculative questions that came to mind was the whole question of illegal transactions and those transactions dealing with perhaps laundered money and matters of that kind.

That is simply a question that arose in my mi nd concerning the applicability of this law, although, as I recall from my training concerning trusts, an illegal transaction is null and void as it applies to trust law. Therefore that kind of an occurrence could not occur, but it is an interesting point, speculative point. Perhaps the minister may address it in committee as to whether there is a transaction that is considered legal in a jurisdiction, albeit illegal in our jurisdiction.

If a trust was entered into that would pass property, would it therefore be applicable under our provisions if this convention was signed, Madam Deputy Speaker? In my quick glance through the provisions of the convention, I do not see any prohibition on this, although again, I would expect, although I am not certain, that applicable Canadian law would apply to nu llify and make void the trust if in fact the transaction itself was ille gal un der Canadian common law or under Canadian jurisdiction, but I do not know that, Madam Deput y Speaker. [interjection] As my able friend the member for Broadway (Mr.

Santos) indicated, the law of the forum would apply in this particular instance. So it is an interesting question, and I think we would still have to look through-al beit that we have signed a convention, we would still have to deal with international conflict laws as they apply to that kind of a situation. There is no doubt, and it also makes for an interesting question as to the application of this law in a retroactive situation, Madam Deputy Speaker. I note that the member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) made a fair amount of reference and discussed the question of the retroactivity and its nonapplicability under this particular statute. What is of interest that those individuals who wish to take advantage of the proVISions of this, I would assu me, soon-to-be- passed law wou ld not have the opportunity to have it apply, although I would expect that the pre-existing laws that are already in existence as they apply to conflict of laws would apply in this case and would take effect, but there is in effect no retroactivity.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the other question that occurred to me in my quick review of this legislation, and one area that probably was addressed, is the whole question of not inter vivos transactions, that is, not those passing between people in lifetimes, but those transactions that pass from an individual to another indi vidu al up on death. Those are generally thought of in terms of trust situations set up as a resu lt of wills, es tates and other transactions.

I have not had the opportunity to review how this act would interact with The Wills Act and other legislation in our ju risdiction as it applies to those kinds of transactions, but I think it is more than an academic question to determine the effect of wills and transactions of those kinds as they relate to trusts because generally when a transaction occurs at that time a trust situation is set up. It may be that all members of this House are not specifically aware

10 83 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 of that, but, in fact, trust situations occur on many occas ions. While on the point of the creation of trust situations- Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): What about Liberal and Tory tax exemptions on private trusts? Mr. Chomlak: The member for St.

Johns makes a very valid point about the question of the tax exemptions for the establishment of children's trusts that allow for the raking in of millions and millions of dollars and the benefits to those taxpayers to the tune of millions of dollars that have been provided for in federal liber al and Conservative platforms. She makes a good point.

It would be interesting whether or not tax plans in international ju risdictions now entered into by someone who will be coming to Canada will now be cons trued valid as a result of this act and will be a further, if I can use the term, ripoff of the Canadian taxpayers and people of Canada. That is a valid point that is raised by the member for St. Johns when dealing with a ques tion of trusts. * (1 450) As indicated, I am assu ming, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the instrument as mentioned in the legislation is one in writing and not one that is made without writing.

I assume that is part of the applicability of the legislation. I quickly, although we do not do clause-by-clause in this particular part of the debates, as I cast my eye generally upon the applicable articles as contained in The Hague Convention that has been entered into, I do note that this legislation applies only to trust entered into in writing, which I think is a safe and appropriate provision to have in legislation of this kind that allows for that.

Another interesting point that applies to the flow of capital and finances, Madam Deputy Speaker, vis-a-vis trust, is the whole question of the Free Trade Agreement and the North American Free Trade Agreement that has been brought in by the soon-to-be-departed Prime Minister.

The whole ques tion of the Free Trade Agreement and the flow of assets and the establishment of trust and the transfer of funds back and forth across the 49th Parallel and beyond is an interesting, not strictly academic issue, but indeed is an interesting issue of capital flows and how the capital could flow via trust provisions and trust arrangements entered into.

Again, it would be an interesting and valid pursuit of the que stion concerning the transfer and the es tablishment of relationship busi ness and otherwise between the juris dictions when this legislation is passed, which will allow for the acceptance in Canadian law, for example, Madam Deputy Speaker, of trust entered into and the flow of capital ensuing thereof in the United States or in Mexico for that matter, and the requ irement, in fact, that we must recognize in our law those trust arrangements that are entered into.

As I pursue this issue, Madam Deputy Speaker, with the encouragement of the honourable member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), it does raise a red flag in my own mind concerning this legislation, how it might very well be intermeshed and interwoven in the Free Trade Agreement and the requirement for business transactions to occur between the various ju risdictions. I might add that while I am not opposed to the business transactions being entered into between Canada, the United States and Mexico, I am concerned about many of the provisions of the Free Trade Agreement, Madam Deputy Speaker.

It is interesting how this act may further move us toward that North American integration that appears to be the goal of the present federal government. Otherwise, other than posing those questions concerning The International Trusts Act, as the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) indicated, we are interested in this and many other bills. Following debate, I expect that the matter will go to comm ittee where the minister will have the opportunity to deal with some of the questions that have been posed by not only myself but by the member for Thompson and others who have dealt with this bill.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James) : Madam Deputy Speaker, it gives me some pleasure to rise and speak on Bill 12, The International Trusts Act. I anticipate that I will be the only speaker from our caucus on this bill. Let me indicate, at the outset, that our caucus is prepared to have this move to comm ittee at the earliest opportunity. I want to put a few comm ents on the record.

I want to start by saying that I have not had a chance to peruse the minister's commen ts, but I have looked at the bill, and I want to put the minister on notice now, that when we get to comm ittee I would like to hear from him the consultation process

Ma rch 17 , 19 93 LEG ISlA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 10 84 that I assume he went through to come up with this bill and, in particular, would appr eciate any information he could give me as to the approval or the comm ents of the relevant associations and, in particular, the Bar Association. I know that there is a wills and trusts subsection of the Bar Association, and they often take a keen interest in legisla tion in this area. I assume that they have in this case as well, and I will look forward to hearing their comments in that regard.

Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the interesting things about this act is that it talks about the international convention on the law applicable to trusts. In the last numb er of days in this House, we have become embroiled in debates over what?-a convention. What is a convention? Well, what it is [inter jec tion] Yes, that is one defini tion of convention. The Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) brings forward a convention, a grouping of people.

That is one convention, and I understand that there may or may not be a convention coming up for some of the memb ers on the other side this June in respect of their leadership. I serve notice now that I will not be involved in that one. That is one convention. Another type of convention is a pattern of conduct which is followed over a long enough period of time and without sig nificant exceptions that it gains the force of law. That is what a convention is. Mem bers will remember that the last time a convention was discussed on the national scale, a legal convention, was when the former Prime Minis ter Mr.

Trudeau wanted to bring back the Constitution Act, 1982. At that time, there was a dispute as to what sanction he required from other provinces before he could that. The Supreme Cour t said that there were two types of laws in effect here. There was the written law, and there was the law of convention, that is, past practice. They said, according to the written law he did not require any consent of any of the provinces, but they said according to convention, that is according to the pattern of history which also gains the force of law, he did require the approval of seven out of 1 0 of the provinces.

Now convention has become an im portant topic in this House in the last number of days because the government has proposed to breach what is a parliamentary convention in this House on the issue of Estimates. This bill affords us an opportunity to consider conventions. [interjection] Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, you have raised with me that this is The International Trusts Act. You will notice that in the definition

section and throughout this bill what is being talked about is conventions. It is indeed relevant to talk about what is a convention and the different types of conventions. So the parliamen tary convention which this House had respected for many, many years, many dec ades, indeed centuries, throu ghou t the parliamentary world had clearly gained the force of law, the equivalent of law as much as you can have laws in the parliamentary form.

Of course, we control our own destiny in this House, but to the extent that that practice had gained the force of law or the equivalent thereof, I believe and our party believes it is absolutely obvious that it would be irresponsible for us to breach that convention at this point. • (1 500) Madam Deputy Speaker, having said that, the other aspect of this bill that is notable is that the world has essentially, or a good chunk of the world has come together and come up with a standard set of rules on the issue of international trusts.

That is a good thing, putting together nations on issues like this and many other issues facing the world, like the law of the seas, the law of the air, the laws that we need as a world, not just a nation but as a world to get together on. This is a good practice.

I sugges t that it is a good step for the people of Manitoba to, through this act, be linking hands with nations from all over the world to ensure that our citizens do not have the opportunity to essentially avoid our laws in our country, in our jurisdictions, by moving some money, setting up trust accounts, setting up corporate accounts in other nations, thereby avoiding our laws. That is something which primarily of course the wealthy have been able to do on all kinds of fronts throughout our history.

This act attempts to cast in law in this ju risdiction a set of rules which is in place in other jurisdictions thereby allowing us to stop citizens from escaping the rightful application of our laws. Madam Deputy Speaker, when we talk about international movements and the move to an international set of standards, I have said that is good, and it is good. What is not good in this government's past record is their willingness to sacrifice our integrity as a province, as a nation to

10 85 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 international interests. These are two separate things. This is not to be confused with things like the Free Trade Agreement. That is certainly moving to the international forum but at an enormous cost, indeed the cost of our sovereignty, our ability to control our own destiny. That is not good. Those are things that were spoken on in this House yesterday afternoon on the resolution put forward by the member for Concord ia (Mr. Doer).

This legi slation, moving as it does to an international standard in the area of trusts, on first reading, from my perspective, seems reasonable, seems like a positive mo ve to standardiz e international laws in the area of trusts. We do not want people to be able to escape our tax laws. We do not want people to be able to escape our various regu lations in the area affecting trusts by taking them offshore, by setting th1�m up in other juris dictions. We want a standard, and that is good.

I only hope that this government and their colleagues in Ottawa are taking the same approach or would take the same approach to even more pressing issues like international environmental standards. What about those? Madam Deputy Speaker, there is no area where there is more reason to standardize international standards than in the area of environmental protection. The law of the sea, the law of the air, these are the issues of the 21s t Gentury. We mu st solve the international competition in those areas.

We can have all the laws we want gove rning the fishermen of Newfoundland about how much cod they can take out of the Atlantic Ocean and when, stay away from the spawning locations in the spawning season. We can have all those laws, but if you have international trawlers from other nations up there scooping the seas it is not going to be worth anything. Worse yet, you essentially take away from our own fishermen and give and allow others on an international scale to rape and pillage our wealth of resources in this country.

We must move to some international standards in the area of wildlife habitat protection, environmental protection, because these things know no bounds. They do not stop at borders. We draw these borders on a map, but wildlife, air and water, they do not respect those boundaries. llhat is the lesson of our current situatio n in this world and increasingly will be the lesson of the futu re. I think that while we are provincial politicians we have our ju risdictional limitations, but surely it is time for us to lead even though we jus t represent this little province on the globe of Manitoba.

It is time for us to lead and to say to the rest of the world, to the rest of our country, let us get together on these things. Let us set the standards which are going to apply to us all and let us have international enforcement of those rules, Madam Deputy Speaker. That has got to be the way of the future. However, my view is that if you want to be an internationalist in Canada, you have to be a nationali st first. We ne ed a strong ce ntral go vernment. We need a strong nation before Canadians can be true internationalists.

We have to deal on the internatio nal stage with some strength, and if we sell our resources and we open our doors un wittingly and without restriction to the United States, other ju risdictions, as we have, we will not be international players. We will not have the ability, Madam Deputy Speaker, to lead with strength and credibility on these issues. That is my thesis today, that you have to be a nationalist first in Canada as a part of being an internationalist.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I look forward to this small step in the move toward international standardization as part of a larger debate in this House and in the coming years in this province and in this nation toward international laws, international enforcement of those laws. We have to be prepared to give up some of our total control over these issues and look at the global situation and be prepared to accept global standards. It will serve our interest to do so. Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Burr ows (Mr. Martindale), that debate be adjourned.

Motion agreed to. ••• Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, would you call Bills 2, 3, 5 and 8, please? Bill 2- The Endangered Species Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 2 (The Endangered Species Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les especes en voie de disparition), standing in the name of the

March 17 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 10 86 honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand? Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? (agreed] Bill 3-The Oil and Gas and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 3 (The Oil and Gas and Consequential Amendm ents Act; Loi concernant le petrole et le gaz na ture! et ap portant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois), standing in the name of the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). An Honourable Member: Stand.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand? Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? (agreed] Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Madam Deputy Speaker, Bill 3 is a relatively leng thy bill, which I understand from the min ister's comm ents has come forward after some sign ificant consultations and deliberations within his department and throughout the industry in this province. I have read the minister's commen ts. Let me say at the outset, I do not intend to take issue with the minister's openness about his ownership of shares in oil and gas interests in southwestern Manitoba.

He was good enoug h to come forward at the outset of his comments and indicate that conflict. Madam Deputy Speaker, I only regret, on his behalf, that he indicates the share values did nothing but go down since he bought it, but in any event, that is not an issue here for this party. I will be the first to admit that I am not prepared today to go through the intimate intricacies of this bill. This is not an area of natural expertise for me.

However, I have read the mi nister's comm ents carefully, and we will have, I am sure, at the comm ittee hearings , experts available to go through this in some further detail. I know it is almost ironic that this bill comes forward at the time it does in the sense that the oil and gas industry just is not doing that well in this province. * (1 51 0) As the minister indicates, there was a boom of sorts in the 19 50s, when there was a discovery of oil.

There was another burst of activity in the 19 80s, and since then, there has not been a lot, due to a number of factors, mostly regulatory control as well as, just simply, international prices. There just is not the interest, which is occurring worldwide, and certainly that is mirrored in Manitoba. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I have reviewed the provisions of this act, one thing which I think has to be mentioned at the outset-and I am going to be looking for some detail further on in the comm ittee hearings-are the new environmental provisions on the protection of the environment.

Part of that is the rehabilitation fund, which is going to be set up as a fund of last resort to rehabi litate sites where exploration work has been done, drilling has been done, when the developer cannot afford, has gone out of business, and there is no opportunity to recover funds to do that rehabilitation work. That is a good thing, that we have a fund which is paid for by some of the developers in the field, to provide that fund of last resort for rehabilitation work. Madam Deputy Speaker, the other part of this bill which I think is positive, and perhaps in no small

part is responsible for its length, is that, as I understand it, the philosophy of the department in drafting this bill was to take the regulatory regime, that is, through regulations, Orders-in-Council, guidelines and other legal and quasi-legal provisions and pull them together in one act. That is good. We do not want a patchwork regulatory regime, where some things are in the act, others are in the regu lations, others are in Orders -in-Co uncil, ministerial gui delines, et cetera. It is too difficult for those who do not have experience in the field to understand what the law is.

We as legislators should do everything possible to clarify the law and as much as possible to put it together and make it understandable within a relatively short period of time to those wanting to participate in this industry. That is a positive move, to have brought these various legal instruments together in one act. I understand that has meant that there may well be a-it is a much bigger act than the former legis lation; but, to the extent that this is an inclusive piece of legislation, that is appropriate. Madam Deputy Speaker, the minister indicated in his com men ts that times have changed .

The people of this province are no longer willing to tolerate, nor should they be, unregu lated activities in oil and gas or mining or any other activity, forestry. The government has an obligation on behalf of the people to ensure that these are done as much as

10 87 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 possible in keeping with the principles of sustainable development. The unfortunate reality of this government and its efforts on sustainable development is that this government is largely responsible for turning that term almost into a term of mockery,. Madam Deputy Speaker. Most people have heard it so often from the mouths of cabinet ministers opposite, with so much meaninglessness attached to the rest of the sentence and what actually happens, that they just treat it as a nothing statement.

They have come to see it as a pur ely politic al statement to be thrown into one speech as many times as possible in the hopes of getting some vot es. Sustainable development means nothing in the words of this government. They use it. They send out nice- looking books and reports and this and that and all of these nicely laid-out things, sustainable development in every sentence, but have they done anything, Madam Deputy Speaker? Have they actually done anything to mo ve this province towards an economy based on sust ainable development? The answer is patently no.

They have failed all the way down the line to put some meaning to their wor ds, to have the courage of their convictions. You know they talk about it. They talk about it constantly. When the going gets tough on wildlife management areas, the going gets tough for the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), he cannot seem to get a development through that he wants to get through, what does he do? He amends the act. He cannot live with his own act, so he amends it. That is what this government does when push comes to shove.

All kinds of environmental issue� think of the report ofthe Clean Environment Comm ission on the Abitibi-Price extension into Manigo tagan. I think of that report, and the first time in my memory-and I have read all the Clean Environment Commission reports- the Clean Environment Comm ission had ever really said no to the government. They stood up, they wrote a lengthy report, and it was quite a well-known Conservative supporter from Brandon, Randy Smith, who chaired the board . I think he might even have been involved with the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) at one point or another.

Anyway, he wrote a very good repor t on that development. What happened? The government looked at it, was probably shocked. Probably the minister fell off his chair when he heard about that, because he, like me, is used to reading these reports which, by and large with a few modi fications, accept what the government wants to do. This one did not, Madam Deputy Speaker. What was the message from the government to the Clean En vironment Comm ission? The message was, don't you dare do this again. Don't you dare come to us telling us that the plans we su pport cannot be done.

They slapped the Clean Environment Commission down within minutes of hearing that news. What did they say? They said, oh, well, they wanted to couch around it. They did not want to actually deny it. They said, well, we are going to have some more public hearings on this. They pretended that they were going to be creating some new public hearings, but in fact it was the public hearings which had already been scheduled on other issues. They could not deal with a strong decision of their own board. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, why do they have the board?

Surely, they want that board to have credibility in the eyes of the public. Surely, they un derstand that this board listened to days and days of expert testimony on those issues and came to a reasoned decision, and it was their oblig ation to respect the decision of that board and not deal with it as summarily as they did. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is jus t another example of how this government in the end really does not kno w anything about sus tainable development. They talk about it and, as I say, they lace every speech and most Speeches from the Thr one with lo ts of talk ab out sustainable development.

Maybe that is why the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) was one of the first signatories to the special places convention wilderness federation. He signed on, one of the first to sign on, happy to do that, but what happened? Within one year, they were saying bigges t disappointment in the country, Manitoba's Minister of Natural Resources, biggest disappointment. Much fanfare at the time of signing-oh, I am in, no proble m.

In that publica tion of the association, there was the minister signing on, one of the first in, but very quickly that association learned this government, this minister, is not committed to what they sign to. They will sign almost anything that has the words sustainable development in it. They love those words. Say it and we will sign, but they never follow

March 17 , 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 10 88 through, Madam Deputy Speaker. They never follow through. Now, on the issue of the rehabilitation fund, this sort of reminds me of the amendments to The Envir onmen t Act and The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act provincially which deal with the ability of the government to assess liability to companies that pollute ground or air or water or whatever. Of course, in their rush to get something into place, this government put into place an absolutely nonsensical provision.

It said that the director in the Department of Environment could assess liability to almost anyone-past owner, present owner, past handler of goods, present handler. There was no theoretical framework for the assessment of liability. It was all left in the hands of the director. * (1 520) That jus t wrea ked havoc in the business community and the legal communi ty as people were trying to determine, well, where does exposure stop, where does it start? What protection do we need before we lend money, before we get involved? What role do subcontractors have who happen to be involved in these activities?

All kinds of problems. I notice in the Speech from the Throne that the minister has comm itted in this session to coming forward with a framework for assessment of liability in those cases. I have seen the report, which has been on his desk now, I believe, since October, if I am not mistaken, of '92. I think Mr. Cantor was on that comm ittee, and Mr. Pannell and other s -[interjection] Pardon ? Yes, and they came forward with some criteria, and the min ister has had that for a number of months.

Maybe I will just use this opportunity to serve notice to him that I am eagerly awaiting a decision from the government on those issues and I think other members are too. I know that the business com mu nity, whom this government is keen to please, are eagerly awaiting some gui dance on liability on these issues of cleanup for pollution spills in this province. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am pleased that this bill attempts to cover that area, as well as the area of setting some environmental standards. I have some concerns.

I am not sure how this bill is going to be impacted by, or impact with, The Su rface Righ ts Act. Perh aps the mi nis ter would be prepared, at the comm ittee hearings, to talk in some detail about that. I also want to ask the minister, and I assume that he will be there with some people from his department who have studied this in depth, perhaps he himself has, but I would like to further understand some of the reasons for the changes in this act to the mandate of the board, which is set up under this act.

I am not clear on why it is that those changes have been made, that is, the five-member board which has the power to make inquiries under this legislation. I want to say to the minister that in keeping with the mines and energy act which was dealt with in the last session, I think it is positive that we are bringing together the various types of legis lation in this area-re gulations, Orders-in-Counc il- pulling them together in one act. I think that is good.

To that extent, albeit with the comments I have made today and reserving, obviously, the right to question in detail as we go through this clause by clause at the comm ittee, I look forward to debating this on a detailed basis in the committee. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Bill 5- The Northern Affairs Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 5 (The Northern Affairs Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les affaires du Nord), standing in the name of honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand? Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Bill 8- The Insurance Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill S (The Insurance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les assurances), standing in the name of the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand? Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] *** Hon. Clayton Manness {Government House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker, would you call Bills 10, 11, 13 , 14 , 15 and 16 , please?

10 89 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 811110- The Farm Lands Ownership Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 10 (The Farm Lands Ow ner ship Amendment and Consequential Amendme nts Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia propriete agricola et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois), standing in the name of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand? Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Deputy Speaker, it gives me pleasure to stand and add my comments to this bill, The Farm Lands Ownership bill.

The minister, when he spoke on this bill, said that these were just minor amendments that would make the operations of government more effective and decrease the costs to citizens in this province in imple menting this bill. As I looked at the bill, I thought I would do some research and find out when the bill was introduced and why it was introduced, the original bill, and in looking back, this bill was introduced back in 19 82, and I understand that there was some very heated discussion at that time on farm land ownership. Our party then, Mr.

Bill Uruski, indicated that they were very concerned about the preservation and the strengthening of family farm operations. That is something that we still con tinue to be very concerned about, the operations of the family farm and the survival of the family farm, and those family farms appear to be in very !great diff icul ty, particularly now with the financial pressures that the family farm is under.

At the time, when this bill was being introduced, there was a great concern about absentee owners, foreign ownership of land, and the research that was conducted at the time indicated that there was a dramatic increase in the amount of land that was being owned by foreigners. There was very little regulation to control this transfer of land, and much of the prime land was being transferred out to absentee owners and nonfarm corporations, foreign speculators. This was contributi!lfl to the inflation of land, but also it was hurting small farmers with the rising cost of prices.

It made it more difficult for young farmers to get started. Also, Madam Deputy Speaker, we were very concerned and should be concerned that, with foreign owners, a tremendous amount of revenue leaves the smaller commu nities, and there is not nearly the concern for small communities when you have absentee owners. It is just a very great drain on the communi ties when the people who own the land do not actually live there. The minister says that these things are just going to clean up the legis lation, make it more easy for the operation of the department, and those parts of the bill do appear to make sense.

Also, the cleaning up of the personal relationship of families, spelling it out more clearly, will also benefit people, families, who are holding joint family farm corporations, so we have no difficulty with that

section of the legislation, Madam Deputy Speaker. However, there is some concern, I believe, with the change in the legislation which changes from two-thirds ownership to 50 percent. This, I believe, is a problem. It is weakening the original legislation. It is weakening the intent of the original legis lation which !feeps the co ntrol of the fami ly farm corporation within the family farm. With two-thirds you can see that there is more control.

If you weaken it and take it to only 51 percent, there is more opportunity for foreign investors and also for corporate ownership of farms for various large companies that have the opportunity to buy into family corporations, which is happening at this time. With the pressure that farmers are under, they have to sometimes look for outside investors.

With these leniencies we could see the control of more farms falling into the hands of corporations if we do not have the two-thirds ownership of the shares by the owners of the farms. * (1 530) With the regulations that we have in place right now, Madam Deputy Speaker, there is room to deal with those people who fall outside the regulations through the Farm Lands Ownership Board. There are decent guidelines in place.

The onus should be on those people who want to become participants in this family farm corporation to prove that they have a valid reason for taking up a larger portion of the farm, and the exemptions can then be made through the Farm Lands Ownership Board.

March 17 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 10 90 However, from what we see here, the Farm Lands Ownership Board has not been doing their work properly and all applications have been approved. In fact, when I called to check, they said on the average they have 275 to 300 applications, and there is 10 0 percent exemption, so the Farm Lands Ownership Board is approving everybody. The min ister is saying that they should change the legislation because everybody is being approved anyway.

In reality what I believe should be happening is maybe the Farm Lands Ownership Board should be being more strict in approving these applications. When we get to commi ttee, we will want to know what is happening. Why are all applications being approved? Is anybody being denied an application on this ownership of land? This is very much a weakening of the leg islation, and the guidelines should be followed much more closely than they are. Cases should be approved on a case-by-case app roval. There is no need to open up the legislation and expand the ability for people to have the ownership of farmland.

Again, I go back to the concerns that were raised way back in 19 82. People were concerned about their farmland; people wanted the land to stay held by the family farm rather than outside foreign ownership, rather than ownership by corporations. There were many people at that time who raised those same issues. There were public hearings and many presentations where people spoke out and asked for this kind of legislation to be brought in to protect the farmland.

I have difficulty in understanding why we would be moving in the direction of weakening the family farm ownership from that particular farmer and allowing corporate investment into the farms, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is something that has to be given seriou s consider ation and something that we will, as I say, raise with the minister when we get to the comm ittee on this. There are other members who have concerns as well, and we will be looking at it. On the other sections of the bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, when we talk about the annual report not being tabled any more, we have no difficu lty with that

section of it. We think that is not a major problem as long as a report is going to be included in the department's annual report. That would not be any problem. The

section that allows for the fees to help recover costs of the board also does not seem to be a major problem. People are having services. There is no problem with that section. Madam Deputy Speaker, the

section of opening up the act and minimizing the amount of the shares that have to be owned by the family farm or people who are related to that particular family is a concern. Again, we would think that if we are at all concerned about the rural commu nity, about having people live in the small communi ties, we would be offering supports in those areas and trying to strengthen that commu nity rather than opening up the ability for corporations to take over the ownership of land.

It is interesting and worrisome to know that the Farm Lands Ownership Board is not acting within its guidelines and is being very lenient in allowing land to be transferred out or not sticking very closely to the gui delines of keeping the land within the confines of the family farm corporation. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have to be concerned about the number of people this is affecting as the land becomes controlled by a smaller group of people, falls into the hands of corporations, and we have many corporations. We hear about that every day, about who is controlling our farm economy right now.

We have many people who are concerned with the power of companies such as Cargill and McCain and those companies which have the funds and the ability to take over not only the production of food but also the processing of food and really removing any control of the farming commu nity, of the actual farmers who are in the business, and also siphoning an awful lot of the revenue that will not be invested back into the commu nity and also not having the interest in the commu nity that should be having some of the benefits of the farming industry instead of having all of the revenue drained out.

I would hope that the mi nister, when we come to deal with this, would reconsider that change that he is proposing to decrease it from one-third of the issues of all classes of shares to a majority, or 51 percent. I hope he will reconsider that, because I believe that it will have a negative impact on the farming community. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is legislation in place. With the board acting properly, we could live within that legislation. There is no need to change the act each time there is a change of government.

10 91 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 I think that we should be able to live within that and the go vernment should be workin g towards assuring that the Farm Lands Ownership Board implemen ts and works within those regulations and, when there is a need , gi ve the necessary exem ptions. There is the abili ty to give the exemptions, but there is no need to change that part of the act. So I hope, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we can deal with that when we come to committee. I know that there are other mem bers on our committee who want to deal with this.

When we are looking at the farming communi ty here, we have to look at all asp ects of the farm ing com mun ity. What is happening right now? We are seeing a group of people in business who are suffering from low revenues, low return for their product and, in fact, we were just about in the process of having other services taken away from these people. That is going to increase their costs and also make it more difficult for them to operate.

I am speaking about the plans and the movement on this government to change the method of paymen t, to have the Crow benefit which is presently paid to the railways to provide services for the farmers so they can make a living, so they can produce food for our coun try. We have a government that is looking at changing that, Madam Deputy Speaker, to have it paid to the farmers. Now this is going to have a devastating impact on the farming community. * (1 540) We hear about railway lines that will be closed. We hear about loss of services. We have farmers out there very concerned.

A majority of them have said, although it would be a narrow majority, that they are very concerned. They do not want the method of payment changed because of the impacts that it is going to have on their farm operations. We still see a government who appears to be ver y sup portive of wh at the feder al government is doing and moving along the lines of changing the method of payment but not giving a clear message to the farmers about what their plan is. How are they going to change it?

What method are they going to implement to have this money transferred back to the farmers if this is what they are proposing to do? Although many farmers do not agree with that, the government has to come forward and tell farmers what this proposal is, because this will have a negative impact.

This is going to have an impact on their family operations. h is also going to have an impact on seeing which farmers are going to be able to survive. h could mean a whole change to the agricuhure industry in Manitoba, to the grain industry in particular, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the legislation that is here before us will-farmers are facing difficuhy.

There are going to be people who are put out of business, and there will be, I believe, larger farms made with the difficulties farmers are facing, opportunities for foreign investment, opportunities for corporate investment, but again I do not believe that the legislation has to be changed. There are guidelines within which we can work, and there is a system in place that should work. We do not have to change the regulations to allow leniency on the Farm Lands Ownership Board.

Instead, the Farm Lands Ownership Board should operate within those guidelines and, when necessary, give the exemptions that are necessary. That ability is in there right now. The exemptions can be made for those cases in which they are needed, and again, no reason to change that particular part of the legislation, because it is weakening leg islation rather than strengthening. h gives more leeway. Madam Deputy Speaker, with that, I will close my comm ents.

I know there are other members of our caucus who want to add their comm ents, because after all the farming industry is a very important indu stry to Manitoba. We as government, as representatives of the people, have to look at how best we can protect that, and offer the best services to the farmers. But we also have to look at how we can protect our farmland so that it is there for farm use and also that the revenue that comes from farms stays in our province, that we do not have foreign ownership, corporate ownership, that takes the revenue away from this province.

We see the revenues of this province where it is right now. We see a government that is in trouble financially because they do not have revenue. The more foreign ownership you have, the more corporate ownership you have, the more revenue you have siphoning out of the province. It is very important that we look at ways we can keep revenue in this province. Madam Deputy Speaker, the most impo rtant people in the rural commu nity, or I should say, one of the most im portant groups of people is the farm

March 17 , 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 10 92 people, and for our communi ties to survive, we have to have many families there, many farm families there. We see that every time a farm closes down we see a family leave the comm unity. There is an impact on the schools; there is an im pact on the hospitals; there is an im pact on the business in the communi ty. So we have to look at ways of protecting and supporting those farmers whom we have there right now. That is vital to the survival of our rural commu nity.

For the survival of those farmers also, we have to have services in place, and one of the services we have to think about is how these farmers are going to get their products to market, and those types of things. We have to have services for the families as well that live in those communities, but we cannot provide health care and education properly if the number of our farmers is going to decrease.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I think we have to be looking very carefully at how we can protect that land, how we can maintain the land from becoming concentrated in the hands of very large operations, how we can keep the price of the land stable so that young people can take up in the agricultural industry if that is what they want, Madam Deputy Speaker. We will not be passing this bill to comm ittee imm ediately. There are still other members who want to add their commen ts to this and the impact that this is going to have in the communi ties.

So with that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will close my comm ents and look forward to in a short time having this bill go to comm ittee where we can have further discussion on it. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): I move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), that debate be adjourned. Madam Deputy Speaker: The bill was previously stood in the name of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes).

Bill 13- The Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bi11 13 (The Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituant en corporation le Fonds de participation des travailleurs du Manitoba), standing in the name of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand?

Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Blll 14- The Personal Property Security and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 14 (The Personal Property Security and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi concernant les su retes rela tives aux biens per son nels et ap portant des modi fica tions correlatives ad 'autres lois) , standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand?

Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Blll 15 - The Boxing and Wrestling Commission Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume de bate on second reading of Bill 15 (The Boxing and Wrestling Commis sion Act;

Loi sur Ia Commis sion de Ia boxe et de Ia lutte), standing in the name of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand? Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Blll 16 - The Public Schools Amendment Act Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading on Bill 16 (The Public Schools Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques), standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). An Honourable Member: Stand. Madam Deputy Speaker: Stand? Is there leave to permit the bill to remain standing? [agreed] Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Deputy Speaker, I wanted to speak on this bill, because this is a bill that I believe once again demonstrates very clearly to all Manitobans the type of government that they elected back in September of 19 90.

I do not believe for a moment that Manitobans would be pleased with the manner in which this government is not only treating the Legislature in this Chamber but is also treating the 350-plus school trustees scattered throughout the province of Manitoba. I believe that this government's approach to fellow politicians, at whatever level it might be, has not been one of a courteous government that wants to respect, to operate in a fair fashion. Why is it that I

10 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 17 , 19 93 say that? Well, I had the opportunity to meet with the Winnipeg School Division No. 1, an area which I happen to also represent, and had the opportunity to speak to a number of the school trustees, and they were not necessarily very kind to the gove rnm ent. [i nterje ction] Th e Mini ster of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme) says that his were kind. No doubt you will find some school trustees that will say the government is doing a fine thing. You will see there are some school trustees that will say the government is not doing a good job and so forth.

No doubt about that. I think that could be said about any government in any given time, but, Madam Deputy Speaker, this is a government that has gone a bit further than deciding a policy which they have responsibility for. This is a government that has decided to take away from elected officials the opportunity to provide for their constituency what they believe is important in terms of providing that quality education. * (1 550) Why is it that I say that? Well, we know as leg islators that when we are elected to this Chamber, we ha ve a respo nsibility.

That responsibility, depending on the party or if you are in opposition or if you are in government, varies. If you are in the government situation and there is a majority government, there is a good chance that you will be making budgetary decisions that will have a better chance at passing. This is something that, as legislators, whether you are in government or you are in opposition, you have an opportunity of giving input in hopes of having the chance at passing. Madam Deputy Speaker, the government cannot necessarily take that away from us, but they have chosen to do that to the school trustees.

That is very, very unfortunate because what they have told the school trustees is that they are limited in terms of the services they can provide. Yes. That is what they have told the school boards across the province. On the one hand, just last year, we had the mu nicipal election where we saw, as I say, in excess of 350 school trustees elected, given a mandate and now we have a government, a Tory majority government, that, even though the school trustees were given a mandate, is taking a part of that mandate away from them.

This is, again, something that is unique, but it is not the first time that this government has done some thing com pl etely un ique. They do provide-{interjection] The Mi nister of Rnance (Mr. Manness) is right, I do not like. I do not like. I believe that most parl iamen tarians would not support, and most Manitobans would not support what this government is doing because whether the Minister of Rnance likes it or not, the school trustees were given a mandate. Th