VOL. 2 NO.64 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 1983

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3347 SD-i The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : Order, please Before we begin, it is a distinct pleasure for me to welcome to the SpeakerTs gallery today His Excellency Edward G. Latter, MBE, ED, the High Commissioner to Canada from New Zealand. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is a little warmer in New Zealand than it is here at the moment, I guess. I hope and trust our visitor will have a pleasant stay in the Province.

I have a question or two that I wish to direct them to the Premier about the Bowater situation. Could the hon. gentleman tell the House - PREMIER PECKFORD: Would you not like to do the fisheries first? MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. PECKFORD: Do you not want to do the fisheries first? MR. NEARY: Do you have a Ministerial Statement? MR. PECKFORD: No. I asked would you like to do the fisheries first. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we will decide the priority of the questions. I gave the hon. gentleman an opportunity yesterday to answer these questions and the hon. gentleman seemed to be very ill informed, Mr.

Speaker, about these matters. MR. WINDSOR; You do not want to know. MR. NEARY: I do want to know and I wanted to know yesterday. The matter is urgent, but the hon. gentleman does not seem to be on top of things. He is a nice /

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3347 SD-2 MR. NEARY: fellow, he means well, but he just cannot cope with the job, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Bowater situation. Could the hon. gentleman inform the House on the latest developments in connection with his visit to Ottawa last week that he mentioned in the House the other day? What transpired at these meetings, what proposals were put on the table by the hon. gentleman or the Government of Canada in connection with the Bowater situation? MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot provide very much specific information to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) at this point in time. All I can do is indicate to the House and the hon. gentleman that we are continuing on all fronts on the Bowater situation.

We are in constant contact with the Bowater people, we are having ongoing discussions with the federal government as it relates to Bowater, and that it is a lively and ongoing matter and almost hourly there are talks on the go about the Bowater situation with various people involved, the various groups involved,that is Bowater themselves and the federal government and the advisory group in Corner Brook, 7:314

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3348 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: so that is where it stands right now. The statement that I made some time ago in Corner Brook relative to Bowater still stands.

There are obviously, as I said in that statement, talks proceeding with various interested parties, or parties that are interested in the Corner Brook mill and operation, and those talks are continuing between Bowater and those groups, and we are continuing to keep the local people advised completely on the situation, and we are in the midst of further negotiations with the federal government relevant to that matter as well, and relevant to what we said about the federal/provincial co-operation and involvement in the final outcome, hopefully successful, for a viable operation in Corner Brook down the road.

So things are moving along and there are innumerable meetings every day, and correspondence and phone calls and things going on to try to put the Corner Brook situation on a permanent, long- term,viable basis. The situation is extremely sensitive. As I say, these matters are in hand and we are in the process of trying to resolve all the matters that are involved in making it a successful operation. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: I assume from the hon. gentleman's answer that Bowater is still refusing to give the Premier or the administration the name of the phantom company that they are dealing with, Mr. Speaker. So in view of that fact, that the hon. gentleman does not know the name of the company that Bowater is dealing with, would the hon. gentleman inform the House what contingency plans the administration have in the event that negotiations with this phantom company fizzle out? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3348 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I just reviewed with the Cabinet this morning, all morning up until half past one or twenty to two, whatever it was, the full situation as it relates to Bowater and Corner Brook, and various ministries and ministers are involved in examining all the alternatives as it relates to Corner Brook contingency plans, everything, a full, mapped-out strategy for all kinds of likely eventualities or probabilities are being examined and studied and discussed and talked about.

I would not, at this point in time,want to get into it in any more detail, only to assure the hon. member that we are familiar with the various likelihoods and we are going to ensure that all measures are taken to protect the people of Corner Brook and the people of Newfoundland and everything in all the likely eventualities that could occur. So I think it is fair to 7255

November 24,1983 Tape No. 3349 ah-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: say that the Cabinet Committee has been working on it, and myself, and the various working groups within government have been identified to spend most of their time on this matter. Everything is fully up to date and, you know, all these likely eventualities that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) referred to are under study and actions and initiatives are being taken to protect ourselves in all eventualities. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, has the hon. gentleman given any thought to Newfoundland Hydro the Province's Crown Corporation,taking over that power plant at Deer Lake in the event that it is necessary to do so? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: That would be a very dangerous thing to do, Mr. Speaker. The power plant is an intrigal part of the complex in Bowater. In order to maka the Bowater mill an ongoingviable operation,it needs to have access to the power at that power plant.

In recent days we have communicated to the advisory committee , the local committee in Corner Brook, that the Government of Newfoundland will do nothing to impair the chances of the Corner Brook mill being a viable operation in the future, and in that regard the power plant at Deer Lake will be used always as an intrigal part of the Corner Brook mill operation.

If the Government of Newfoundland, or anybody else, tried to access or do something different with the Deer Lake power plant than is presently being done,which is to supply power to the Corner Brook mill,then you would be taking out the positive component in the Corner Brook operation and making it very, 737

November 24,1983 Tape No. 3349 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: very difficult for the Corner Brook operation ever to have a chance under any new management or any new owner. So the Deer Lake power plant remains a total and absolute part of the Corner Brook mill operation and must remain that way ,and we have given assurances in writing to the people of Corner Brook that nothing will be done to take that power plant away from the Corner Brook operations.

Everything will be done to keep it and it will be always a part of the Corner Brook operations, because without it there is not then the good likelihood of being able to put together a proposal which can make the Corner Brook operation viable. - MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: I see the hon. gentleman was not listening to what I said again. I said in the event that it is necessary to do so. We hope it will never become necessary, but in the event that it does become necessary, would the hon. gentleman tell us if a feasibility study has been done , Mr.

Speaker, on that plant to determine whether Newfoundland Hydro would take it over in the event that it is necessary to do so? But the hon. gentleman did not listen to that part of my question. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman told us in the beginning that Bowater was offered $38 million to help refurbish the mill, but so far we do not know if Ottawa has put any funding on the table at all. p238

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3350 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman tell the House,in view of the fact that he does not know the name of the company, Bowater will not tell him who they are dealing with-they will not take the hon. gentleman into their confidence -is that $38 million still on the table? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well,obviously the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has not read the statement that I gave in Corner Brook, so I would direct the Leader of the Opposition's attention to my statement.

The information and the answers to his questions are contained in the statement that I made in Corner Brook. On his earlier question of 'necessary to do so it will not be necessary to do so. This administration takes the view that the Corner Brook operation must and will be operated long-term as a viable pulp and paper industry in Corner Brook and therefore - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECEFORD: - we will not ever even entertain questions as related to if it is necessary to do so.

We are committed completely, totally, absolutely to putting together,with the federal government, with new purchasers, a framework for an ongoing, viable paper operation at Corner Brook, which therefore must contain the Deer Lake power plant. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I am glad to hear the Premier make that statement, Mr. Speaker, because I was getting the 73

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3350 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: impression, and I believe that this might have arose as a result of his visit to Ottawa last week, that all they were trying to do was to put some money on the table and say, 'There you go, we tried and everything failed. Here we put our money on the table and we have no contingency plans.' So, Mr. Speaker, that is a little bit encouraging anyway. Could the hon. gentleman tell the House if during the negotiations with the Government of Canada, with Mr.

Johnson, the President of Treasury Board, any discussions were held regarding setting up a federal Crown corporation similar to the one in Sidney that took over the Sidney steel mill a few years ago, DEVCO I believe it is, Mr. Speaker? The hon. the Premier was the one who said they are committed. We have to look at all the ifs, ands and buts in this, Mr. Speaker, because we also are committed to keeping that mill in operation. If everything else fails, is the hon. gentleman looking to Ottawa to set up a Crown corporation similar to;the one that was established in Sidney to take over the steel plant there?

Could the hon. gentleman tell the House if there were any discussion along these lines? MR. SPEAXER (Russell) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECEFORD: Well, as I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) in answer to earlier questions,I am not going to get into the various alternatives. I suggested or indicated to the Leader of the Opposition that all possible avenues are being explored by us and we are attempting to establish, and have done so right from the beginning, a co-operative attitude with the Canadian Government in this matter.

It is soso important for the economy of this Province, not only the economy of the West Coast, Obviously all avenues are being pursued, and I do not wish to I

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3350 MJ - 3 PREMIER PECFORD: comment upon any one particular avenue in any amount of detail now,but everything is being looked at and we are hopeful that a proper framework can be put together for an ongoing,viable operation. May I just suggest to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) that .1 Mr. Johnson is not President of Treasury Board in the Government of Canada, he was President of Treasury Board but he is no longer. I think Mr. Herb Gray is President of Treasury Board, Mr. Johnson is Minister of Economic Development and Chairman of the Economic Development Committee of the federal /

November 24, 1983 Tape 3351 PK - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: government. Besides the suggestion by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) brings back some memories of years ago I was wondering where the Leader of the Opposition was,and the Liberal Government of Newfoundland,when Bell Island closed down. I did not hear any talk about Crown corporations then. b 1R. DOYLE: He was the member at that time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russe1l: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we were in the same place as they are concerning Labrador City and Buchans.

And one thing that government did - unlike this government with Ultramar oil refinery — we took possession of the Bell Island mine for $1, The hon. gentleman cannot even deal with Ultramar in Holyrood. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, is making a speech. He happens to be also defending the indefensible,a long since defunc t government, thank God, but he is not allowed, Mr. Speaker, not even for the purposes of that to make a speech during Question Period. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition to that roint of order. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman is just trying to be his usual nasty self, Mr. Speaker. There is no point of order. It is merely a difference of opinion between two members 7

November 24, 1983 Tape 3351 PK 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Do I have a question - MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. Premier,to that point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: - that I am suppose to answer here or was that just comments by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). MR. NEARY: No, there is a point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: The point of order is taken care of, , I guess, but I am wondering if I have MR. NEARY: No,not yet. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. NEARY: You are not boss of the House and Speaker too, you know. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

It appears that the Leader of the Opposition was not being too relevant to posing a question. I would ask him to direct the question to the Premier. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, of course, the answer was completely irrelevant too. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me change to another area on the qovernments misery list, Labrador City. Is the hon. Premier aware that on a couple of occasions in recent weeks his Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations was invited to go - MR. SIMMS: There is no such department. MR. NEARY: Manpower or Labou whatever it is, Labour and Manpower, whatever it is, was invited - 4R.

SIMMS: You are only hare 20 years and you do not know the deoartments yet. - MR. yEARY: The hon. gentleman should go out and play with his monkey suit, play with his silver coins and medallions. a' 4LJ

November 24, 1983 Tape 3351 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please Order, please! MR. NEARY: Is the hon. gentleman aware that the minister was invited to go to Labrador City to meet with the unions down there and he has refused to do so? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, just let me say, in reference to some earlier comments by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary),Labrador City is still operating, Buchans is still operating, but Bell Island has been closed down, and he helped close it down, years ago. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: The Minister for Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) and I think the Minister responsible for Mines (Mr. Windsor), in the next week or two are going to visit Labrador City on a request from the unions and that down there. They have been talking to the ministers and things are being arranged for a meeting down there with the unions. MR. SIMMS: Wrong again. PREMIER PECKFORD: Now I do not know where the Leader of the Opposition is getting all this great information from. The other question is I think yesterday we received a report from the task force.

I think the chairman of the task force issued a statement , I saw it this morning or last night, / _.:JL+

November 24, 1983 Tape 3352 EC - 1 PREMIER PECEFORD: indicating that he had submitted to government the task force report,shich is now under study. And for the House's information and for the information of the people of the Province, just last week several of the ministers and myself concluded a long series of meetings with the bC people on the Labrador City situation now and into the future We are on top of that situation down there and we are hoping to be able to ensure its long- term viability as well as that of Corner Brook and St.

Lawrence and Bale Verte and all the other places that we are being so successful with these days. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, concerning Bell Island, the hon. gentleman has been there two or three years, we have had a Tory administration for eleven years and they have not lifted a finger to help the people of Bell Island. I would like to know how the hon. gentleman can answer that. At least when we were there we kept something moving over there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! £Ii.

NEAfl': No wonder they are looking for a new member over there, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the hon. * gentleman tell us when the residents of Labrador City - especially those who have been laid off - when they and their families can expect action from the administration? They have undergone now enough suffering and pain as a 7235

November 24, 1983 Tape 3352 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: result of procrastination on the part of the administration. Could the hon. gentleman inform the House when they will get some action on this task force report, when some help will be directed their way? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Premier. S PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, let us make it clear. It was the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) who closed down Bell Island, closed it down. MR. DOYLE: That is right. PREMIER PECKFORD: He was the 'close down' member and then he ran away to Port aux Basques.

I mean, that is the story; he closed it down, he did nothing. And the only thing he could do in return was to spend 90 per cent of the building material money for the Province on Bell Island afterwards when he was Minister of Social Services. That is the story of the Leader of the Opposition, that is what he did, What was it, $240,000 or $250,000 at that time? I forget the sum. And of that $240,000, $220,000 went to Bell Island. I mean, it was just incredible! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! PREMIER PECKEORD: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to answer the question posed by the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: I wish to answer the member for Building Materials the question that he asked. The question that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for Building Materials asked was on Labrador City and the task force report. It was received yesterday, as I told the Leader of the Opposition a few minutes aoo, from the chairman of the task force. It is under study by Cabinet. / '-

November 24, 1983 Tape 3352 EC - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: We wish to - and have done already - publicly thank all the people of Labrador City and Wabush who co-operated so positively in making that report. The people there were very favourably disposed to the group that went to Labrador City - Wabush 7

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3353 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: and studied their problems. It is under serious scrutiny and study now by the government and shortly we will be in a position to release the report and to indicate what, if anything, the government intends to do to assist the people of Labrador City as a result of the layoffs that have occurred to date. Hear, hear. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the member for Tiffany Towers, the hon. the Premier, could tell the House what he found out - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: -Heart Break Hotel?- about the fishery restructuring business yesterday that we were asking him about? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Finally the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), under pressure from the Premier, is going to ask a question on the fisheries. It is too bad that we over here have to stimulate the questions that are going to be asked from the opposite side of the House. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to clear up - and I thank the Leader of the Opposition for asking the question - the matter of Mr. Kirby's comments yesterday .

I think the Leader of the Opposition and myself were concerned yesterday, as everybody in the House was about that. We have since had an opportunity to talk to Mr. Kirby and to Mr. De Bane, Mr. May, Mr.Maflfl, Mr. Nickerson and all the people up there. I would just like to clarify the situation for the House and for the people of the Province. Number one, whether the Nova Scotia agreement qoes ahead or does not ro ahead will not / _3

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3353 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: affect the agreement between the Province and the federal government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. PREMIER PECKFORD: Number two, what Mr. Kirby said was in relation to Mr. Crouse's amendment. Mr. Crouse, the MP for somewhere in Nova Scotia, the Fisheries critic - AN HON. MEMBER: A Tory member.

PREMIER PECKFORD: A Tory member, yes - had proposed an amendment to the bill before the House of Commons giving the effect that the federal government would not be able to spend any money, which would prohibit the federal government from spending any money in Nova Scotia.

Now there are two companies in Nova Scotia , Nickerson and National Sea, whichhave a presence in the Province of Newfoundland andif this amendment went through and was successful, it would prevent our full agreement from being fully implemented because the federal government would not be able to use the money that it has already said it was going to use to alleviate the financial stress now being caused by North Atlantic Fisheries,which is owned by Nickerson and some of the National Sea interests. So the amendment that Mr.

Crouse was proposing, if passed or agreed to, which we do not think it will be, would have prohibited the agreement in Newfoundland from being fully implemented because it would have retarded the federal government and stopped the federal government from spending money in Nova Scotia, and that money would have been money going to Nova Scotia to alleviate 739

November 24, 1983 Tape 3354 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: - the problem in Newfoundland because Nickerson's owns North Atlantic Fisheries and National Sea plants in Newfoundland. That is the situation. It had nothing to do with the agreement between Nova Scotia and the federal government. Whether that goes or does not go would not impair our agreement going ahead. But what could impair its full implementation is if Mr. Crouse's amendment, which is a silly amendment, is successful. Because it would prohibit or inhibit then the federal government from spending money in Nova Scotia.

So he was responding to Crouse's amendment when he made the comments that he made, and we have that fully clarified. MR. NEARY: The report was inaccurate. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, it was taken out of context in referring to the amendment that Crouse was proposing. So that is the story on it, and thankfully that is the story on it. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and myself and other people have indicated to the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada that we have absolutely no time for Mr.

Crouse's amendment or the other silly amendments that they are trying to put in the way of this, that we are here to protect - MR. ROBERTS: Hear, near! PREMIER PECKFORD: Exactly. We are here to protect the interests of Newfoundland and Labrador, and Newfoundland and Labrador comes first over any political party as far as we are concerned. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear PREMIER PECKFORD: And we have worked hard to try to out in place an agreement which is in our best interest, and we want to see the thing proceeded with posthaste and no more delays so that we can aet on to try to put in place something that will help alleviate some of the problems that we have in this Province. I

November 24, 1983 Tape 3354 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: On a different topic, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Justice.But before I do, I am glad the Premier made representations to the Mr. Crouse and the other silly people,not all of whom are in the Tory Party,I am afraid,but we will see how much stroke the Premier has with the Tories in Ottawa. I hope it succeeds.

I would like to ask the Minister of Justice a question of which I have given him some notice, not a lot,but I know enough to enable him to deal with it tersely and succinctly in his ususal way. Be is, I know, familiar with the situation in the superior courts of the Province where there appears to be a shortage of judges and of courtroom facilities with the result that matters set down for trial are not being dealt with as quickly as would otherwise be the case and certainly not as quickly as is desirable. Can the minister tell us whether the administration contempl this problem, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: MR.

OTTENHEIMER: is no doubt aware there district court system, Labrador - te any measures to try to deal with The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is a vacancy to be filled within the that being the judicial district of MR. ROBERTS: I suspect that will be filled fairly soon. MR. OTTENHEIMER: - and Happy Valley-Goose Bay. • So certainly it is the hope of the government that that will be filled within the near future. There have been indications,with respect to the judicial district of Nestern Newfoundland, or the judicial district in which His I / '

November 24, 1983 Tape 3354 NM - 3 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Honour Judge Soper presides in Corner Brook, that there is a great deal of work for the district court there and representations w / '- I

November 24,1983 Tape No. 3355 ah-1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: have been made to the effect that there would be a need • for an additional district court judge in Corner Brook. We have asked for statistical and relevant information from • the district court to make an assessment on that. When that material is received and reviewed,then the government expects to be in a position to make a decision but certainly there are indications of the necessity of an additional district court judge there. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.ROBERTS: A supplementary, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, the minister has spoken of the district court, particularly in Corner Brook, the judicial center of Corner Brook, and I assume we will have an answer or an announcement of some sort in the not to far distant future. Perhaps he might be able to put a time frame on that for us if he would? But the other question I would ask is about the other court level in the Province, the Supreme Court, the Trial Division. There is , I believe, on the Order Paper a bill which has been distributed to us to create an extra position in the Trial Division of the Supreme Court, the division headed by Chief Justice Hickman.

Can the minister indicate to us whether it is the administration's intention to proceed with that bifl? Perhaps I should be addressing this to his colleague, but between the two of them I am sure I will get an answer'. The two minds think as one, the two hearts beat as one, Can the minister tell us whether it is the intention to proceed with that bill at this session with a view, presumably, to having it adopted? I assume it will win the support of the House. 1? / '.I

November 24,1983 Tape No. 3355 ah-2 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.OTTENHEIMER: Mr.Speaker, no, we do not intend to proceed in this session with this bill, which would be enabling legislation for the appointment of an additional judge to the Trial Division of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland. As hon. members will recall or are aware,for a period of a number of months the Trial Division of the Supreme Court was operating under quite a difficulty due to the fact that the former presiding judge of the Unified Family Court was quite ill and indeed was unable to perform his duties.

That gentleman,after having made a very considerable contribution as the first presiding judge of the Unified Family Court,has now , of course, retired, and there has been an appointment to that position, Madam Justice Cameron. Prior to her appointment, Mr. Justice Hunt spent a great deal of his time as presiding judge or just a judge.- he was not the presiding judge- but as the judge of the Unified Family Court. With the appointment of Madam Justice Cameron as presiding judge, Mr. Justice Hunt is now putting his full time into the regular work of the Trial Division.

So we do not now intend to proceed with that I2

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3356 MJ - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: bill in this Session.

Really I think what is necessary now, and what we are in the course of doing,is when we get the statistical and relevant information with respect to the district court of Corner Brook - and I think these things have to go together; obviously they are different branches of the judiciary, but bearing that it is the intention to merge, whether that is a year hence or a year and a half hence, whenever it is then obviously they have to be seen in some context - after we have the data available with respect to Corner Brook,I think then is when a firm dèôision with respect to both issues will be made.

That would bejI envision, early in the New Year. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The time for the Question Period has expired. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled 'An Act To Control And Regulate The Distribution And Use Of Pesticides'. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled "An Act To Revise The Law Respecting Limited Partnerships". DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into a / '-I

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3356 MJ - 2 DR. COLLINS: Committee of the Whole to consider certain Resolutions relating to the advancing or Guaranteeing of Certain Loans made under The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957. (No. 49) . This will be Resolution No. 2 in that regard. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to questions put to me by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for which I took notice,I think it was the day before yesterday. The questions were, and this is quoting from Hansard: '

(1) If the public Treasury has recovered the amounts that were spent on two films of a Tory Convention in Gander in 1968?' And (2), and again this is quoting from Hansard: "Whether or not the money was recovered from the Tory Party in this Province?" Mr.

Speaker, this matter arose from a comment in the report of the Auditor General for the financial year ending March 31st,1979, paragraph 28, which reads as follows; the heading is: 'Political Convention expenses charged against public funds," and reads: "Expenditure charged to Subdivision 307.03, Special Action Group, Resource Public Relations Program, comprises mainly payments made to a group of public relations and communications consultants.

The audit of these payments disclosed that at least in one instance, the group was paid $20,885 for services which they identified as relating to the Progressive Conservative Party Convention, which was held in Gander 1978. I hold a differing opinion from those who claim that funds were appropriated by the House of Assembly for such a purpose." Fnd of quotation. That was the Auditor General's quotation. I'-

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3356 MJ - 3 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this matter was the subject of a comprehensive review carried out by the Internal Audit Division of the Department of Finance. At the same time, a sum a I I

November 24, 1983 Tape 3357 P1< - 1 DR. COLLINS: of $64,000 was claimed by McConnell for work done for the government which was held unpaid by the government pending completion of this review. Subsequently, McConnells claimed interest on this unpaid amount which eventally raised their total claim against government to a figure in excess of $86,000. The review involved internal audit staff visiting McConnell's offices to examine records co establish that billings by McConnell had been made in accordance with the terms of the contract between McConnell and the government.

The review also identified an overpayment to McConnell of some $5,000 for interest on late paid invoices. The findings contained in the internal audit review were subsequently referred to the Department of Justice for their advice as to the government's course of action. Following extensive review of the whole case, Justice concluded that it was unlikely a legal claim could be maintained against McConnell for any amount other than the approximate sum of $20,000 referred to in the Auditor General's report and the interest overpayment of approximately $5,000 identified by the Department of Finance.

As a result, Justice recommended that negotiations be commenced with McConnell in order to confirm the validity of McConnell's claim for an amount in excess of $86,000 and to arrange recovery of the sums owed to the Province. Subsequent negotiations carried on between provincial officials and representatives of McConnell over an extended period resulted in a settlement whereby McConnell abandoned all claims for interest and the Province recovered $28,000 by deducting this amount from the $64,000 properly claimed by McConnell for the unpaid invoices previously frozen by the government.

This resulted in the government agreeing to make a / '-I

November 24, 1983 Tape 3357 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: net payment of $36,000 to McConnell. This settlement fully compensated the Province for its provable claims and avoided legal costs and further delay in attempting to obtain recovery through court action. The government also received a final release of all claims against it for any and all work performed by McConnell for government under the contract or otherwise. In

summary, Mr. Speaker, the sum of $20,885 referred to in Paragraph 28 of the Auditor General's report and which was the subject of the hon. Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Neary) first question has been recovered from McConnell. MR. NEARY: No way! Do not be so foolish. DR. COLLINS: Because this amount has been recovered by deducting it from the total claimed by McConnell the issue of an action against the Progressive Conservative, Party does not arise. MR. NEARY: I am not surprised. S 1 I'.

November 24, 1983 Tape 3358 EC - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. I table this report. Hear, hear Orders of the Day. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the MR. NEARY: Newfoundlanders and Labradorians were upset and disappointed on Tuesday that the administra- tion there opposite would not pass a unanimous resolution in this House supporting peace initiatives to halt the arms race. We believe a resolution from this House would reassure citizens of this Province - MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, there is an order of business and Your Honour has called for Orders of the Day. The hon. gentleman got up and made a speech.

Now, there is one other proceeding that can come before Orders of the Day, which is the purpose under the Standing Order for the adjournment of the House to consider a matter of urgent public importance, and if the hon. gentleman is going to do that, he should say so, but he is now allowed to make a speech with respect to it; he defines what the nature of the motion is and then he sits down and there is then a decision as to whether it is to be debated, but he does not debate it first. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, to that point of order. MR. ROBERTS: I will be very brief. We do not need a lecture from the likes of the gentleman from 4 / '-

November 24, 1983 Tape 3358 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) on the rules of the House, Mr. Speaker. My hon. friend, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) obviously is going to do that which is proper under the rules of the House. All he is doing is simply trying to get the words out of his mouth before he is interrupted by the hon. gentleman from St. John's East. I would suggest, Your Honour, that there is no point of order, that my hon. friend ought to be allowed to finish the sentence he was in the middle of enunciating when he was interrupted. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): To that point of order. I think the point of order is very well taken. The hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) is correct, that Orders of the Day were called. I did recognize the hon. the Leader of the Opposition but certainly I think that he should state at the beginning if he is rising on a point of privilege or under the Standing Order for emergency debate and I would ask him to do that. MR. NEARY: I am under Standing Order 23, Mr.

Speaker, for an emergency debate, because we believe that a resolution from this House would reassure citizens of our Province that their elected members are aware of the gravity of the world situation. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, under Standing Order 23, I move that the regular order of business of this House be suspended today to debate this matter and thereby show our people that when something like the arms race transcends partisan politics, we are prepared to give it all-party support, both sides of the House. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, this is a political manoeuver by the hon. gentleman. I':-

November 24, 1983 Tape 3358 EC 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please Order, please MR. MARSHALL: I refer Your Honour to page 92 of Beauchesne: ''Urgency' within this rule' - which is the same rule that we are considering now - "does not apply to the matter itself, but means 'urgency of debate'". Now, Mr.

Speaker, obviously the matter itself certainly is urgent, it has been urgent for years but, you know, as far as the urgency of debate is concerned, this House, as all-powerful as the hon. gentleman may think he is and omnipotent in all things, but the fact of the matter is that this House has very little influence with respect to any determination of this issue and to the debate and any ultimate resolution of it. So it is not a matter of urgency of debate, Mr. Speaker, it just happens to be 232

November 24,1983 Tape No. 3359 ah-1 another political ploy of the hon. gentleman. And he has a motion on the Order Paper with respect to it, too. MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! I am sure the motion put forward by the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is of great interest to everybody. And certainly if the Chair felt that by having an emergency debate here today there would be instantly world peace,he would be the first to allow an emergency debate. But certainly I do not think it to be an emergency.

It might be interesting and an important matter, but certainly I do not think that it warrants it emergency debate. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.ROBERTS: I do not rise to make anything except to ask a very routine question of the President of the Council Could he indicate what order of business we are to follow today - I do not think he indicated it yesterday- and the order of the bills? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. M The hon. President of the Council.

MR.MARSHALL: I think I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition, as I indicated I would, before the adjournment. We are today on, and I will be calling it in a moment, the Local School Tax Act, we will go to the other education bills, Order 36, Bill No. 42, the 7233

November 24,1983 Tape No. 3359 ah-2 MR.MARSHALL: amendment to the Teacher's Training Acts then we will go on to Order 47, 48 and Order 49. ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act," (Bill No. 6) The hon. Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to move second reading of this bill,'An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act. The proposed change is a simple matter which is important for the improvement of the administration of school taxation in our Province.

It is a measure that has been requested by the School Tax Authorities themselves through their provincial association known as PASTA , to empower courts when convicting people for failing to pay school tax to go on to order payment of the arrears of tax as well as imposing another penalty, fine, or in extreme cases , I suppose, jail sentence. This will make the local School Tax Act parallel to the Municipalities Act and the city's legislation which now have provisions requiring the court upon convicting people of arrears of municipal taxation, to order payment of the arrears of tax. 7'-

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3360 SD - 1 MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is too much more that I can add to this except to repeat that it is a measure which will improve the administration of local school taxation by boosting the collection rate. The change has been requested by School Tax Authorities themselves who, of course, are the agents of school boards, the purpose of school taxation being to raise revenue at the local level to pay for the operations of schools and the measure will make the local School Tax Act parallel to the Municipalities Act in this respect. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, any bill that has to do with the School Tax Authority we on this side of the House take a very dim view of it. Because as hon. members know, it is the policy of our Party, the great Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador, it is the policy of this great Party at the earliest possible opportunity, Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House when we have an opportunity, which may or may not be very far away—we are not certain about that,only the Premier knows that— we will abolish the two school taxes in this Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is simple and to the point and perhaps the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) who could not understand what I was talking about the other day will understand that message, that the hon. minister can bring in all the amendments to the School Tax Authority Act, I think that is what it is, "An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act', bring in all the amendments she wants, Mr. Speaker, but we are not going to get very enthusiastic about these amendments on this side of the House because we are against school taxes. The hon. member for Maskaupi (Mr.

Goudie) looks at me as much as to say, 'Well,where are you 725

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3360 SD-2 MR. NEARY: going to get the money?' That is right, I can almost read his mind. Well, we think that the running of education and the running of schools in this Province should come out of general revenue. * MS. VERGE: Where would we get it? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) wants to know, where would we get it? Now, if the hon. Minister of Education would just tell the Premier to call an election - MR. HOUSE: That is a Liberal idea. MR. NEARY: - if the hon.

Minister of Education could persuade the Premier to call an election and we were to move over to that side of the House, then we would gladly tell the Minister of Education where we would get it. Mr. Speaker, the School Tax Authority and school taxes have to be abolished. MR. WARREN: We would not have Royal Commissions to provide $900,000 for a few jobs. MR. HOUSE: They were set up by the Liberals. MR. NEARY: Is the Minister of Health (Mr. House) now going to attempt to come to the rescue of the Minister of Education, .7Q

November 24, 1983 Tape 3361 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: when the hon. gentleman cannot even do his own job in Health, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman was just a joke, a laughing stock when he was Minister of Education and now he is the laughing stock of Health. Mr. Speaker, if I was the hon. gentleman I would just sit over there - MR. HOUSE: Be truthful in the debate and say the Liberals brought in this School Tax Authority. Be truthful. MR. ANDREWS: He is going to change the Liberal policy now, is he? MR. SIMMS: Ignore him'Steve' boy, and carry on. MR. NEARY: Yes, I intend to ignore him. Mr.

Speaker, we on this side of the House state categorically that the school tax should be abolished in this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, one of the great controversies started by this administration, they almost started the Third World War, was when they assessed property throughout the Province and extended and expanded the school tax, Mr. Speaker, based on property. That almost started a Third World War and that is still seething beneath the suface, Mr. Speaker. And it is going to be a thorn in the side of that administration for some time to come. You know, Mr.

Speaker, I am highly amused at the Minister of Health (Mr. House). He was a member of the MooresT Administration, now he is a member of a born- again administration who put distance - he was a member of the old administration, the same as the Premier, but now they want to put distance between themselves and Moores. They do not want to be identified,or associated, or affiliated in any way, shape * or form with anything that Moores did, they just blot it out of their minds as if that era never existed in this Province. But, Mr. Speaker, they do not mind throwing little dirty digs across the House at us.

It has been eleven years since we had a IL-

November 24, 1983 Tape 3361 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Liberal administration in this Province. Now,I am sure any fair-minded person would agree that if that hon. crowd over there can blot out the Moores' years completely —they are not just saying, "Well, we ignore this thing, or this was wrong or that particular thing was wrong, but they just blot it out as if it never happened at all, it was a bad dream. MR. SIMMS: Shame on you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. SIMMS: 'Steve do not be detracted by them, boy, do not be detracted, I am listening to you. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, as a matter of fact, we almost won the 1975 election on that one issue alone. That was a plank in our platform in 1975. MR. TOBITh Were you not an independent then? MR. NEARY: You know, Mr. Speaker, I have to remind the Chair that ignorance is one thing that this House does not tolerate, Mr. Speaker. MR. TOBIN: Then how come you are here so long? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please: Order, please: MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: To clarify for the House, the hon. gentleman did not have a platform.

He was not a Liberal in 1975, he was an independent. He did not know what the Liberal platform was. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: To that ooint of order I rule there is no point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ' - I IL

November 24, 1983 Tape 3361 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman does not know the Second World War is over yet, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: According to your resolution, neither do you. MR. NEARY: You know, Mr. Speaker, they can harrass all they like, and they can be as ignorant as they want; I will tell you one thing they are doing, they are drastically affecting the image of this House / '-"I

November 24, 1983 Tape 3362 PK - 1 Members like the hon. gentleman for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), the hon. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), the hon. Government House Leader, (Mr. Marshall) , Mr. Speaker7 they are doing more damage to the reputation of this House and I guarantee you they will not be here very long, their constituents are well aware of it, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, one thing I am going to ask the Chair to do because the Premier comes in this House and he wants order, he wants to be heard in silence, well, we want to be heard in silence.

We want the same rules to apply to this side of the House that apply to that side, Mr. Speaker. That is all we are asking. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! I do remind hon. members that any person speaking in this House does have the right to be heard in silence, and I would ask all hon. members to respect that rule. And I would remind the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Weary), that we are speaking on the School Tax Authority, The Local School Tax Act, No. 6,and I would ask him to have his remarks directed to this School Tax Act. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, so having said that, that is a part of our philosophy, it is a part of our ideology, and it is one of the major planks in our platform, to abolish the local school taxes, Mr. Speaker. MR. HOUSE: Who brought in the Act? MR. WEARY: Could I have silence, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 7290

November 24, 1983 Tape 3362 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: And that will be done, Mr. Speaker, at the earliest possible opportunity. Mr. Speaker, in the interim, obviously, the administration intend to continue this tax, this regressive tax, the administration obviously are intent on continuing it, so while we are debating this amendment,perhaps I could ask the minister a few questions about it. I would like to ask the minister, for instance,how many tax delinquents have there been in the last year, or in the last couple of years? How much does the non-payment represent of a school board's total annual operating revenues?

I hope the minister is making notes there. about the delinquency of the tax. The hon. minister, if she does not have the information with her, should be able to send out quickly there and get it- the number of delinquents in the last year or in the last two years, say. And in which areas of the Province are the School Tax Authorities having problems with tax delinquency? In other words, in which part of the Province is the problem more serious? And , Mr. Speaker, I suspect that the answer may be that it is a very serious problem indeed.

And if it is a serious problem, it is only because people hate this tax, they despise it, they believe that money for education should come from general revenue. The next thing the administration will be setting up a police - MR. ROBERTS: That tax is based on your ability to pay, generally speaking. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: Why do we not have a hospital tax? MR. WEARY: And afiretax and a police tax- MR. ROBERTS: - or a roads tax, or a fire tax, yes.

November 23, 1983 Tape 3362 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that raises an interesting question. So why do we not have a police tax or a fireman's tax or - MR. ROBERTS: Maybe we should watch this year's Budget. MR. NEARY: Yes, that is right. Maybe the minister- I do not want to put any bad thoughts in the - MR. ROBERTS: Or the Premier's apartment tax? MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: There is no limit to the taxes we could have. MR. NEARY: That is right. We have an hon. gentleman, the only time in the history of Newfoundland, the first time in the history of Newfoundland provided with a rent-free apartment.

MR. ROBERTS: We have had Premiers who have given their homes to the Province. MR. NEARY: That is right. I'-

November 24, 1983 Tape No.3363 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: We have a previous, previous nrrr who donated his home to the Province for one dollar. MR. PEACH: How much did that home cost? MR. NEARY: How ever much it cost it belongs to the taxpayers. It was given to the taxpayers for one dollar, a gift to the Newfoundland people for one dollar. MR. TARTN: It did not cost as much as the upkeep of Mount Scio for the last four or five years. MR. ROBERTS: Sir Robert Bond did the same thing - MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, pleaSe! MR. ROBERTS: - and now it is the other way around. MR. NEARY: So, Mr.

Speaker, with all the unemployment problems we have throughout this Province - hon members should not have to be reminded that we have record unemployment in Newfoundland and Labrador - there is a great need for job creation, that we have not heard very much about in this session of the House. MR. YOUNG: You did not ask any question on it either. MR. NEARY: We have not asked any questions. They avoid like the plague talking about problems that affect the ordinary people and they force us to talk about things like this, that will mean increased taxes to the people. MR.

ROBERTS: Right Peace in the world is of no concern. MR. NEARY: They do not want to talk about peace,or jobs,or Corner Brook,or Labrador City,or Burin,or Bell Island or all these places on their misery list. MR. DINN: We are looking for the contact down there. MR. WEARY: They do not want to talk about opening hospital beds to alleviate the pain and suffering of sick people in this Province who are forced to stay in corridors, 7

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3363 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: on cots,while they are waiting for beds. Mr. Speaker, the trouble is that this administration do not care about people. SOME HON. MEMBERS: That is right. MR. NEARY: They do not care about people. That is the difference between Liberalism and Toryism. We care about people, they do not care about people. MR. WARREN: How can you be Progressive Conservative? How can you be. MR.

NEARY: 'nJ I would suspect that the delinquency rate is fairly high because of the mismanagement and the incompetence of this administration who have no plans to create jobs or employment for our people. The only thing we have heard in the last two years is one industry after the other closing down, doom and gloom for the last two years, since April 6th, almost two years ago,when they were elected to negotiate an offshore agreement. They do not want to talk about that anymore. They do not want to see or hear tell of it.

But all we have heard in the ast couple of years is doom and gloom caused by their incompetence and mismanagement. So I would suspect that that delinquency rate for the collection of school taxes is fairly high. That would be my guess, Mr. Speaker. And we all know that the other day I quoted from the Catholic Education Council Report, and I have had a nuniber of discussions with people who are very knowledgeable in educational affairs in this Province, very knowledgeable, more knowledgeable than the minister, who tell me that the level of funding for schools in this Province is inadequate. MS.

VERGE: They are the very oeole who want school tax increases. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, they are the very people who want education funded from general revenue. 729 L

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3363 SD - 3 MS. VERGE: No,they are not. MR. NEARY: Oh: MS. VERGE: Give us something now. MR. NEARY: You know, Mr. Speaker, I hope that remark was recorded in Hansard because I will take that Hansard and I will send it out to all of these people who are interested in these matters,and very knowledgeable, more knowledgeable than the hon. minister. Mr. Speaker, only the other day we heard about the implementation of Grade XII. And the proposal for Grade XII , by the way, originated from this side of the House.

I was the first one in this Province who raised the matter of the exnaned hiqh hool system. MR. STAGG: That was after you got your Grade XI, in night school? MS. VERGE: Dr. Kitchen announced that when he was in your party. MR. NEARY: Now if I were the hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) I would try to do something about the rents that the administration is imposing, the excessive increases in rents in the apartments out on the Harmon Corporation in Stephenville. The hon. gentleman should concern himself with that matter, and not be sticking his nose in affairs of other districts. MR.

WARREN: It has gone up 45 per cent in the last three years the rent. MR. NEARY: The rent.s h're cone uc 45 per cent in the last two years on the Harmon Corporations and we have not heard a peep out of the hon. member, not a peep in this House 7295

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3364 MJ-1 MR. NEARY: in defense of the tenants who are fighting tooth and nail to get these rent increases rolled back. I realize I am straying a little bit, Mr. Speaker, but I will come back to the matter of Grade XII, the inadequate funding. We are told it has placed a tremendous strain on our educational system, that we have overcrowding in classrooms.

I heard the other day a story about where the principal called all the children into the laboratory that they are now using for a classroom - they cannot use the laboratory because they have to use it for Grade XII, they have to put the students in there, there is no room in the school - and told them, 'Thanks to your government this is where your classroom is going to be from now on.' And they all cheered, you know, 'thanks to your government. ' In other words, they were condemning the government. And that is happening all over St. John's and all over the Province, Mr. Speaker. The hon. minister knows that.

The hon. minister gets up with the face of a robber's horse and practically calls these people liars. The hon. minister the other day practically called the report of the Catholic School Council, that I was quoting from,liars. MS. VERGE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. Minister of Education. Apart from the fact that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has strayed away completely from the subject at hand, which is an amendment to the Local School Tax Act, the hon. member is bordering on falsehood. MR. WEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. '1 1

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3364 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: I would suggest that that is not a point of order,merely a difference of opinion, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : To that point of order, I rule there is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: But anyway, Mr. Speaker, that is enough about that. These people have gotten the message from the minister as a result of her remarks the other day in the House.

As I say, the Catholic Education Council noted in their annual report,that the minister had not even seen or read until I brought it into the House the other day- MS. VERGE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Education. MS.

VERGED I had both seen and read the annual report of the Catholic Education Council,and I appreciated the fact that it was referring to the report of a sub-committee of a committee,with representation from the Denomination Education Cornxnittees,on the SchooLs Act rather than the Department of Education Act,which was the act being debated in the House the other day. The report of a sub-committee of a committee on an amendment to the Schools Act has never reached me or Cabinet. The comments made by the Catholic Education Council have been noted and are appreciated by me. The Leader of the Oppositions (Mr.

Neary) continual referral to distortinq of these remarks trying to cause a sensation, I am afraid have been quite unsuccessful I regret that he is wasting our time, the valuable time of all hon. members, by dragging out his futile attemps at manufacturing a controversy and inflaming emotions about the denominational education system ,which this government has supported,but which he has, after raising the issue, failed to take a stand on. 7'.

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3364 MJ - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I cannot help it if the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) is on the defensive with the educational authorities in this Province. I cannot help it if the people who run the education system in this Province have no faith in the minister. I cannot help it, Mr. Speaker. I'-

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3364-A lB-i MR. NEARY: A further indication, by the way, that the minister did not read that report the minister thinks that it only had to do with the revision of the Schools Act. That report was wide-ranging and dealt with a variety of subjects, Mr. Speaker. There is another indication that the minister had not read it. There is no point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is merely a difference of opinion. MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD) : To that point of order, I rule that the hon. minister took the opportunity to clarify statements that were attributed to her. rule there is no point of order. MR.

MARSHALL: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon. gentleman when he introduced his statement was talking about the government side of the House and the decorum of the House and the way the House operates. Nobody is doing more to disrupt the decorum of the House than the way the hon. gentleman is debating the measures that are before him. He is engaging in a general debate,with respect, as if it were the Throne Speech debate as he does on every single bill.

Now, the rule of relevancy says in the Throne Speech debate there is wide latitude, in the budget debate there is wide latitude for debate. In bills, particularly bills which are amendments of this nature, we are confined to the principle of the bill itself. And the principle of this bill relates to a court conviction of a person who fails to pay school tax. Now that is what the principle of this bill relates to. The hon. gentleman is getting into a wide-ranging debate. 7299

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3364-A IB-2 MR. NEARY: He is referring to the hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) and rentals out in the Harmon Corporation. He reinstituted debate on a bill that was already passed with the hon. Minister of Education (Ms. Verge). And when he does that, Mr. Speaker - now even when he talks to the bill he does not make much sense - but, Mr. Speaker, he is bound to address himself to the principle of the bill, and when he is not doing it he is just taking the House on his back and doing just what he wants.

There are rules and regulations which determine the mode and method of debate and I suggest that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) be directed to those rules and be required to comply with them. MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD): To that point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, you realize, of course,the strategy on the part of the hon. gentleman and the Premier (Mr. Peckford) is to attack me personally every opportunity they get.

In these slimy, rotten words that the hon. gentleman has a technique of using in this House, they try to undermine the credibility of myself and the Opposition members, hoping the press will pick up their slime and their dirt and the poison they squirt across the House, Mr. Speaker. But it is not working and the hon. gentleman is not going, under the guise of a point of order, to try to undermine the credibility of me or anybody else in this House because the hon. gentleman has no credibility in the Province, Mr. Speaker.

If I did stray, I was only answering questions and interruptions that were flung at me from members there opposite. So if they do not want to hear the answers, Mr. Speaker, what they should do is observe the rules of the House, try to restrain themselves while we are making valid points- 7300

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3364-A 13-3 MR. NEARY: we know they cannot stand criticism - just restrain themselves and let us make our speeches, Mr. Speaker, without interruption in accordance with the rules of the House. 7301

November 24, 1983 Tape 3365 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): To that point of order, I rule that there is a point of order. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) was,on occasion, straying from the principle of this bill, Bill No. 6, "An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act". I would ask him to restrict his remarks to the bill. I would also remind hon. members once again that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition does have the right to be heard in silence. He has requested that this right be upheld and I would ask all hon. members on both sides of the House to respect it.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on Bill No. 6. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I put to the hon. minister a couple of questions about the collection of school tax. I wanted to know about how many tax delinquents there are. I hope the minister has that information here at her fingertips and not just get up and take an example from the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) and squirt some poison over at us. How many delinquents have there been in the last year or so? How difficult is it to collect school taxes?

And how many letters of complaint and petitions of complaint has her colleague, the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) and the Department of Education had in the last year or two about the assessment of property? They are charging the school tax now based on property. How many complaints, Mr. Speaker? It is a very unpopular tax. MS VERGE: What taxes are popular? MR.NEARY: Oh! What taxes are popular? Mr. Speaker, there is the rhetoric. Ask a rhetorical question What taxes are pooular Certainly it is not 7332

November 24, 1983 Tape 3365 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: popular to collect taxes from the people and pay for an apartment for the Premier. That is not a popular thing to do, when people are suffering so much out there across the Province. And, Mr. Speaker, the School Tax Authority is not collecting enough revenue to provide the level of funding that the schools need.

We are told time and time again, both inside this House in reports and we hear it outside the House - I hear it from delegations and people who are very knowledgeable in this matters who come to see me; we have meetings in my office they tell me that the level of funding for schools is inadequate, grossly inadequate. And I just gave the minister examples of how inadequate it is, that an awful lot of school districts throughout the Province are encountering major problems in providing the essential space, materials, equipment and teachers to implement the new Grade XII programme.

And I regret to have to say that, Mr. Speaker. Why do I regret to have to say it? Because I am the father of Grade XII in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the record will show - anybody, either inside or outside this House who wants to check the public record will see that I was the first to raise the matter of the expanded school system, Grade XII in ti-us Province. I was the first. Now, if they want to follow along behind me like the Pied Piper, Mr. Speaker, that is fine.

It so happens that am not the administration and if we were we would have implemented Grade XII, but if we did implement it, we would have pro- vided sufficient funding. We would not have created diffi- culties and headaches for the school districts - we would have provided sufficient funding to implement Grade XII - - 7 / J J3

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3366 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: difficulties that have been brought to our attention by school boards and individual schools. And then we saw the other day in the report that the Catholic Education Council, along with the Pentecostal Education Councilwhich we were told, Mr. Soeaker, have made numerous representations to the minister about the inadequate funding. So,as I said in the beginning, Mr. Speaker - DR. COLLINS: Does anyone have adequate funding? MR. NEARY: Yes, the Premier has adequate funding, quite adequate.

It gives him a free apartment, helicopters, motor cars, private dining room, Mr. Speaker, that is what I call adequate funding. But for the school districts that are struggling with the implementation of Grade XII,they have inadequate funding. MS. VERGE: Where do you think we could get some more funding? MR. NEARY: Do you know something, Mr. Speaker? The minister in her simplicity, her naivity, asks the most simple question, 'where would you get it You know where we would get it, Mr. Speaker? If we were the government we would show her. We are not the government. MR. DOYLE: And you are not going to be. MR.

HOUSE: You had a school tax when you were in power. MR. NEARY: You had a lot of things when you were with Mr. Moores that you will not acknowledge now either. You had a lot of things when you were with Mr. Moores. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please MR. NEARY: There goes the interruptions again, Mr. Speaker, that - MR. BAIRD: What bill are we on? I cannot figure out which one. I j•

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3366 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: But anyway, Mr. Speaker, under this act also, if the court convicts a person for failure to pay the tax, it can also order that that person pay the amount of the tax. That is a little bit different than you will find in other statutes in this Province, a little bit different. Usually delinquents pay a fine and that is it. If a court convicts a person for failure to pay his school tax, then it can also make him pay the tax. And I have had a lot of complaints from poor people around this Province, Mr.

Speaker, who have been hauled into court by the School Tax Authorities, under the auspicies of this administration, and, not only were they fined, but they had to go out and pay the tax. And if they did not pay the tax, they were hauled in again. I am not sure, but I believe down in my files I have a number of examples where they served jail sentences. They could not afford to pay the tax, they were out in jail. Now that is a nice how-do-you-do, Mr. Speaker, in 1983. That is a nice reflection upon the administration that runs the affairs of this Province.

Does my hon. friend know of any instances down in his district? MR. STEWART: We all pay our taxes down there. MR. NEARY: You all pay your taxes down there? MR. STEWART: The hon. gentleman is shot down again. SOME HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! • MR. MATTHEWS: That was no help at all. MR. NEARY: No, not a bit. So, Mr. Speaker, we look forward to the ministers remarks in closing second reading of this bill. We would like to have some information concerning

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3367 ah - 1 MR. NEARY: the deliquency, the failure of people to comply with the rules and with the law and to pay these taxes. MR. BAIRD: Oh, Neary! Stuck for words again. MR. NEARY: No, I am not stuck for words. I am just reading the explanatory note here. I just made a reference to it in my remarks there but now I am reading it to make sure that I am right.

The explanatory note, here is what it says, "This amendment would provide that when a court convicts a person for failure to pay a school tax it shall also order the person to pay the amount of the tax." You will not find that in very many statutes in this Province, Mr. Speaker. The member for Carbonear (Mr. Peach) , who rarely speaks in this House, who was very old-womanish yesterday in his remarks - MR. PEACH: So you did not like the remarks. MS. VERGE: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : A point of order. The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, I have to take objection to the sexist remark by the Leader of the Onposition (Mr. Neary) referring to old women. I think that is a sexist remark which demeans a large percentage of the population of the Province, some Of the finest of our citizenry, who are also among the lowest income recipients and the most vulnerable members of our society - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is this a point of order or wasting the time of the House? MS. VERGE: - who certainly do not U deserve to be maligned and insulted by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I J J6

November 24,1983 SOME HON. MENBER: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.NEARY: MR.SPEAKER (Aylward) Tape No. 3367 ah-2 Right on. Right on Hear, hear Mr. Speaker. To that point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is rather clever, you know. The Minsister of Education (Ms Verge) is learning from the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall), hoping to take something that the boys upstairs will quote, that will make it look like I am against old women. My mother just celebrated her 83rd birthday, by the way,in case the hon. Minister of Education is interested.

All I said, and it is a favourite expression in Newfoundland, was the gentleman for Carhonear (Mr. Peach) was old-womanish in his remarks. Now if the hon. minister takes offence to that, I say tough. The hon. minister is in disfavour with the Status of Women groups nowthat helped to make her what she is, falling rapidly into disfavour with all the various causes that she championed around this Province, Mr. Speaker. And I cannot help that, I mean , I feel sorry for the hon. minister.

I would suggest there is no point of order1 just a cute litte trick on the part of the minister to hope to say something that would not be answered, that would be quoted upstairs, that would make us look in a bad light as far asferriales in this Province are concerned. MR.SPEAKER: Order, please To that point of order:Although it was a very interesting point that the hon. minister made,it is not a point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 7307

November 24,1983 Tape No. 3367 ah-3 MR.NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, I will conclude my few remarks now by asking the hon. minister to provide us with as much information as possible - MR. ANDREWS: Sit down, old man. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if ignorance can be eliminated in this House? MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! MR.NEARY: Thank you. I would submit that if members there opposite , Mr. Speaker, want to have a good time,they know they can go down to Feathers somewhere and do it.but not in this hon. House. There are rules that apply to this House. And so, Mr.

Speaker, we hope that we will get as much information as possible from the hon. minister. But again I have to restate our position on this side of the House p / j Li

November 24, 1983 Tape 3368 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: that at the earliest possible opportunity, and that may be when the people get a chance again to go into the polling stations and vote by secret ballot, they mark their Xs, that may be the time, but, Mr. Speaker, whether it is or whether it is not, at the earliest possible opportunity we will abjlish school taxes in this Province and see to it that education is adequately funded from general revenue. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): If the hon. minister now speaks she will close the debate. MS. VERGE: Thank Your Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please I did not recognize the hon. minister yet, I just made that statement in case there is anyone who wants to speak. MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to defer it to the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker and I also thank the minister for allowing me the opportunity to speak in the debate. I was just looking up one of the acts there when I realized that the minister was speaking. I would just like to speak very briefly on it.

My concern is that after our history in this Province we find ourselves still in a situation that with general revenue we find ourselves in need of an extra tax over and above our 12 per cent sales, over and above the tax on cigarettes, over and above the tax on gasoline, over and above the income tax and all other indirect taxes,we still find we cannot give adequate 73U9

November 24, 1983 Tape 3368 PK - 2 MR. HISCOCK: money for education in the Province without having an extra tax. The member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) and other members on the Opposition have ended up asking 'why is it that we do not have extra taxes on other departments? Of course, we find in the Department of Health if you go to the out-patients, and if you go into a private room you have certain taxes there. The Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) ended up saying , well, it is fine for the Opposition to say that they would not like this, butwhat would they do to come up with extra xevenue.

My question to the Minister of Education would be why did we get out of the co-operative element between the federal government with regard to DREE schools? Why was that discontinued? Why did the provincial and the federal governments get out of the cost-sharing programme of DREE schools? It was my understanding,and I may be wrong and that is why I asked the question, that the Province wanted to opt out of these arrangements . Because many of the school boards were entering into them, let us say, in Burgeo district, represented before by Mr. Jamieson ; there are schools here in St.

Johnts, Beaconsfield, I believe, United Junior High and other ones, and it is my understanding that one of the reasons why the Province wanted to get out of these cost-sharing is that the schools themselves are too expensive to maintain after they were built. But let us look at the system of education in the Province. Periodically we have to have schools replaced because of age, because of fire The Fire Commissioner here in St. John's has ended up 7310

November 24, 1983 Tape 3368 PK - 3 MR. HISCOCK: saying that there are several schools in the city area here that should be closed due to substandard fire safety 7311

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3369 NJ - 1 MR. HISCOCK: facilities. If I were a parent I would be rather concerned that children are going to these schools. And I still am very concerned, even though I am not a parent, that we do have children going to these schools that are considered by the Fire Marshall not safe enough. But putting that aside,we find that we have to periodically replace schools, we also find ourselves in a situation, with increased population, of having to build new schools. So what do we do? We end up finding that the school board has to come up with 10 per cent of the cost of the financing.

We found out in the district of Eagle River that the Vinland School Board because of financial trouble were taking their library grant, they were taking their sports grant and they were taking their hone economics grant and they were taking all the other grants.that were given to them to provide the facilities in that school board district to pay for the cost of fuel and heating in those schools along the Labrador Coast and the Northern Peninsula, so much so that they almost did go bankrupt technically.

The provincial government ended up bailing them out and the provincial government has now said that they do not necessarily need the 10 per cent financing when enlarging or building schools on the Labrador Coast. And I compliment the minister and this government on that,but it is,of course, what should be done no matter what administration is there. We cannot have an area of our Province not having proper education facilities because of a small tax base of revenue. The other part on that, we found out that when they build aschool,T as Ken Meeker pointed out, that there is very little landscaping done.

Not only is there no landscaping done, but, to take Mary's Harbour as an example, the new school there was built basically with gravel all around it. They had problems with

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3369 MJ - 2 MR. HISCOCK: water; they still basically have problems with water. After three years they found out that the only sports equipment they were given was two basketball hoops and a used basketball sent over from the school board office. That was the only sflorts eouipment whatsoever put into that school, and that was a new school. Showers were supposed to be in those schools, but because of the hjqh cost those showers were cut out.

But they made sure that there was a clock in each of the classrooms, and if you know anything about diesel electricity and how it is generated, you know that it is not reliable to power clocks. So they have clocks in the classrooms and none of them are operating properly or keeping correct time. Now, that is an example I find where we do have the school tax authority, but even with that we still have to depend very heavily on volunteers in the community.

We still have to depend on the Parent Teacher Association very heavily - and I must say that I want to compliment those groups in our Province on the fine job they are doing to supplement the cost of education. Other volunteer groups in the Province are Minor Hockey, Beavers, Girl Guides, Cadets of various sorts - army, air cadets - and the CLB. Many of these organizations raise money to supplement the school curriculum only because the provincial government here finds that it cannot in many ways meet the needs of education.

And as a result we find schools that do not have proper library books and do not have the proper home economics facilities. And now, with the implementation of Grade XII there are many, many, many books that have been long overdue. The school semester has started and 7313

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3370 SD - 1 MR. HISCOCK: it was almost towards the end of the term before they even got the book, and then they even had to share them. We have examples with regard to computers, examples with regard to typewriters and also industrial art rooms. In the specialized fields of sports, home economics, industrial arts, with regard to typing, with regard to any programme that needs a fair amount of expensive equipment, we find out that the schools in many ways themselves have to raise the money in order to get those things.

If they need typewriters, they have to raise the money; if they need home economic things, they have to raise the money. Here we have a piece of legislation that, if you do not pay your tax, you can be arrested and taken to court. MR. NEARY: You are convicted, and then you have to pay your tax. MR. HISCOCK: But the reason why that was, of course, is that a person was convicted and sent to jail not because he did not pay the school tax, but because he refused to pay the court costs. So that was the legal part.

Now the minister found that they could bring all these delinquent taxpayers to court, they could be ordered to pay the court fine but not necessarily the original tax that they were being brought to court for in the first place. So therefore the minister now ends up changing this. And as I said, you know, it is from the point of view that obviously people are not delinquent in their taxes from the point of view of wanting to be delinquent. I would assume that it has something to do with the economic situation of our Province.

I also realize that we do have to pay for our education, we do have to pay for the facili- ties, but in the meantime there has to be compassion, there has to be understanding. I also know that under this act there can be exemptions. If you 7314

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3370 SD - 2 MR. HISCOCK: are a senior citizen I believe you are exempted; if you are on social services you can be exempted, and I assume then that the Department of Social Services pays. But we also know that there are a good many people in this Province who are on the boarderline, who are receiving very, very low wages, receivinq very, very low unemployment insurance, and do not qualify for, but in many ways are probably getting less money than if they were on social services. MR. NEARY: Middle class people are getting less and less all the time. MR.

HISCOCK: So with regard to the other part on it , I find, as I said, a situation that we want to have education in the Province but we basically cannot afford it. We want to have good health system in the Province but we basically cannot afford it. So what do we find? 715 IF

November 24, 1983 Tape 3371 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: We find, with respect to children in the high schools and elementary schools, that school canteen profits from pop, chips, chocolate bars, etc. are being taken - I do not think anyway that schools, whether they be in Nain or in St. John's, should be permitted to sell junk food. I believe it is too readily available.

I believe that parents who are in the work force now find it easier to give their children $2 for lunch and the child buys a couple of bags of chips, a bar, a bottle of Coke or Pepsi, children who, because of poor eating habits, have not had any breakfast in the first place and then go home at night for what is not always the most nutritional meal. And I think that this administration have a responsibility in this respect. At one time, one could be assured of having milk or cod liver oil in the schools. And as bad as those times were - we think of them negatively-nutrition-wise those times were very, very good.

If a health study were done on those students who had the cod liver oil and orange juice made avail- able to them in the schools - I remember getting it in elementary school - and if another study were done on today's students, I would say the studies would indicate more health problems in future because of today's life- style and eating habits than in the so-called poor times. But, as I said, we now want a first-class education and we want first-class facilities but we cannot afford them.

We depend on the Parent Teacher Association and on the students themselves to raise money for video machines, projectors, sports equipment, extra books to supplement courses, encyclopedias, and you can go on and on. And I would go as far as to say - and I think the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) 7316

November 24, 1983 Tape 3371 EC - 2 MR. HISCOCK: would agree - that even if any administration in the Province were to provide the amount of money the schools wanted, there would still be need for these volunteers, for the Parent Teacher Association and for the students themselves to finance these extras. There is always room for improvements. But the basic requirements in our school system are not being provided. There is overcrowding in our schools, we 7317

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3372 NM - 1 MR. HISCOCK: are using libraries for classrooms, we are using our science rooms for classrooms. Down in Mary's Harbour they are using the gymnasium. There they have a gymnasium and they have three classes in it. So what use are those facilities? You can go on and on. If they are using the library as classroom space, then the library is not being utilized the way it should be used in the first place. If they are using the gymnasium as classroom space, then the gymnasium is not being utilized the way it should be. And those are the things that the minister has to address.

I am sure that the minister will get up and say, "Last year we put $12 million in, this year we will put $12 million in, and over and above that we have the cost-sharing arrangements with it.' But we have gone on a new expansion of implementing Grade XII. We find out that even with that there is still a lot of people gone to trade school and university this year. And what we find in those situations is that it is not the school tax authority that is the problem, but the post secondary part gets into it by increasing student fees. Allowance, that is a word that this government does not know at all.

It was an allowance at one time when the Liberal Administration gave a mothers' allowance to help them with regard to extra expenses come school term. The federal government has also seen the need for that extra expense and ends up implementing the Child Tax Credit.

We have also had an allowance when the Smallwood Administration was here in order to realize the greatest resource that we had; it was not the oil, it was not the forestry, it was not the fish, it was not the tourism, or agriculture, but it was our people and then with regard to the opening of this great university that we have and the continuing building on it, we ended up enticing students to come not only to university with regard to grants and loans, but also actually /'J

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3372 NM - 2 MR. HISCOCK: gave them an allowance, paid them to go to university. And we now find that the Premier addresses a groan of public servants the other day and said, "We need top people in manaqerial skills." Where would top managerial people come from if we did not lay the foundation in the 1960's under the Smallwood Administration to get the people with their HAs and now move them on to the MAs and some of them are moving on to their Ph.D.s.

But this administration now we find are cutting back on the two basic cornerstones of liberalism, that is the right of all to education and the right of all to health. Those are the two things that this government have been whittling away at for the past ten or twelve years, now we find out that there are more students this year aopling for Canada Student Loans, there are less people getting grants than ever, and we find out now there is even pressure on the Provincial Deoartment of Health to implement user fees.

There is pressure, I am not saying the minister has gone with it, but there is pressure to find extra money. If there was not, with the increase that has been recorded in the hospitals, one would assume that one would not have this pressure. ') 7 . I

November 24, 1983 Tape 3373 PK - 1 MR. HISCOCK: So those are the things that I find , Mr. Speaker, with regard to this Act The old expression is you cannot get blood from a turnip. We now have a piece of legislation that basically goes contradictory to this, saying we can get blood from a turnip: We can take them to court, we can order them to pay the court fine, and after that they can end up having to pay the tax.

But as I said , if they do have money in the first place,they are not going to have the good name go into the court system, allow it to go to the hearing and end up finding themselves fined for the cost of implementing it, being taken and also the cost of what they owned the School Tax Authority in the first place. But I agree with the minister, it is a problem of delinquent taxes, Whether this be the sales tax , whether it be the property tax with councils throughout our Province, whether it be the incoite tax, whether it be the school tax there are problems with delinquent taxpayers.

And with regard to that, society as a whole finds itself having to pay for delinquent taxpayers. But that still does not take away the fact that education in this Province is being underfunded more and more all of the time, that education facilities here in the Province and the quality of education is suffering, and so is the Department of Healths The Minister of Health (Mr. House) and Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) can get up and say we have given more money than last year- which is true—but even with that it is not necessarily enough.

And the answer to that question is a difficult one, where do you get the extra funding? Where do you get the funding to do those things? But surely there are two cornerstones in this Province1 good health and the right to good health,and the right also, Mr. Speaker, to 7320

November 24, 1983 Tape 3373 PK - 2 MR. HISCOCK: education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : Order, please! On a point of order, the hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: This is an Education Bill, why is he referring to health? While I am up, I want to point out to him that never before have there been as many people employed in the Health field as we have now. I think it is erroneous, wrong and misleading for him to indicate that anything else is true. MR. HISCOCK: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I find that is not a point of order. Obviously the Opposition has struck a sorepoint with the Minister of Health (Mr. House) and irritated him somewhat and he ended up disagreeing with what I am saying. 0 7321

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3374 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas) To that point of order, I rule that there is no point of order, but I would remind the hon. member that he should confine his remarks to the bill being debated. The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With regard to the school tax, we find out that we are now going to try to claim the money for the School Tax Authorities, which are not operating properly, which people are disobeying, whether it is done from civil disobedience or whether it is done from the point of view of hard economic situations.

We now find ourselves having to revert to the courts to obtain - supplementary financing for education. And I would say, Mr. Speaker, this is not the route to go in hard economic times in our Province, to put the screws to our people more and more and take them to court. It is a vicious piece of legislation. It is a piece of legislation that undermines civil liberties. It basically proceeds from the base that people are not going to pay the taxes, so therefore we will make sure that we will have all the loopholes closed so that if we have to take them to court they will have to pay it.

So it operates from a negative point of view. It does not realize that the majority of the people in this Province are paying their taxes and are paying all of them, all of them maybe begrudgingly. But to envoke a piece of legis- lation like this in such hard economic times, does not give our people the sensitivity and compassion that they need.

With regard to the idea that if you are on social welfare and you make a certain amount of money you can be exempt, maybe the minister and this government can look at the fact that if you get a certain income, and you are not on welfare but on unerriployrrent insurance cr low 7322

November 24, 1983 Tame No. 3374 SD - 2 MR. HISCOCK: wages , maybe that could be looked Upon as grounds for an exemption. I think if you make less than $600 a year you can also be exempt. But maybe realistically if you only make something like $4,000 a year or some such figure - the poverty line , I think for a family of three is $15,000 ,and I think the exemption here is only something like $600 or $800 - maybe what we are finding is the ones who are having difficulty paying are the very ones who are making something like $3,000 to $4,000 a year.

Because if you look at it, the taxes that people have to pay are the School Tax Authority, the local improvement tax or council tax and over and above that, of course, then your income tax and sales tax and whatever. So I have to disagree with this piece of legislation, I do not think it is going to solve the problem of education in our Province, We find that we have a government that is gradually whittling away at the basis of education for our people. If we are going to prosper as a Province 1then surely, Mr.

Speaker, I think all members of this House would agree that one of the main things we can do is open up education to a1] irregardless of creed, colour, sex and economic income. And we find out / '-

November 24,1983 Tape No. 3375 ah-1 now that this has not been the case, that it is becoming more difficult all the time to obtain an education. We are also finding that in the school system it is more difficult all the time for students to become competitive in sports because it is very, very expensive. If they need to go on meets, it is also very, very expensive.tf they want to get into hockey, skating, soccer, cross-country skiing, they have to be from a fairly affluentmiddle- class family in order to get involved in these sports in the first place. So we are not making these things equally available.

The minister would say that they are available to all,but if you are going to go on meets and that then there are extra amounts of money that are needed. I would assume that all members of the House know that there is not a week goes by without donations being requested by schools within their districts coming into the members. And as I said,they have to do this because they find out that they just cannot make ends meet in the schools.

So I would say to the £Iinister of Education, whose budget is the largest, but when you break that down you find out that the $17 million for busing has nothing to do with library books , has nothing to do with industrial art, the majority of that is in salary and in administration. And in that part we find out now about the situation in our schools - and it is on the Open Line programmes—concerning seat belt legislation to cover buses and overcrowding.

A bus can carry seventy-two people and junior-high and high school students find themselves sitting three in a seat with very little room, no room at all to move back and forth. We find out that they have to carry their typewriters aboard with them , we find out that they have to taJe hockey or sports equipment aboard with them, or 7324

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3375 ah -2 MR. HISCOCK: their band equipment, so we are not talking about seventy-two people, we are actually talking about maybe upwards to eighty-five or one hundred because of this equipment, and we are endangering the lives of our younger people. We have been rather fortunate in this Province in not having had a bus accident as they have had in the Province of Quebec.

The Province of Quebec has been prone in many ways during the past several years to very, very bad accidents, even fatalities with regards to buses going off the road or being hit by a train or being hit by a tractor-trailer. We have seen it on the news. I am not an alarmist now, I am not saying it is going to happen here, but I do think 7325

November 24, 1983 Tape 3376 NM - 1 MR. HISCOCK: that the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) has to take thatdr advisement, has to take inder consideration that if the regulations say 72 people, that means 72 students, not 72 students plus - AN HON. MEMBER: All kinds of junk. MR. HISCOCK: Not all kinds of junk,because it is all kinds of equipment, typewriters and sports equipment and parts that are now, because of Grade XII, extremely important to their curriculum.

So I would hope that the minister would have the officials look at this and maybe have it done in such a way that so much equipment has to be considered part of the number of students in the bus and maybe the last two rows be delineated and used for storage of their equipment. But something, Mr. Speaker, has to be done before it is too late, and hopefully the minister will take this under advisement and do it. But as I said,it is a sad day for this Province, it is a sad day for education when we find out that we have to bring in legislation taking people to court in order to pay the school tax.

This is not going to look after the quality of education. This is not going to be providing the managerial people that the Premier wants to have. It is not going to provide the number of people that we need, chemical engineers, civil engineers, and doctors that we need for the offshore, it is not going to provide the type of people that we need to operate the mills in our Province,or in the civil service. We need top qualified people. This administration has always prided itself on being pro-Newfoundlafld pro-youth and that, but when it come to implement these thinqs, Mr. Speaker, 7326

November 24, 1983 Tape 3376 NM - 2 MR. HISCOCK: it goes entirely against the grain altogether. High on publicity and propaganda stunts, very, very low on actually delivering. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. HISCOCK: So I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that this legislation is not the beginning of a series of legislation that is going to be brought in by the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) and find out that fines is the answer; or the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) find out that he has to bring in legislation to force people who default on their Loan Board loans to pay up.

Or the Minister of Rural Development's (Mr. Goudie) Department. I will be concluding on this, if there are departments that should have legislation like this it is the Department of Development and the Department of Rural Development, which give political grants and loans to groups, find out that they default and then end up not being paid back. That is where a lot of our money is going. And if we had a proper use of our money, Mr. Speaker, in our Province the very little that we are getting, if it was used efficiently, then maybe we would not need this, that we would be able to collect taxes. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. LI 7327

November 24, 1983, Tape 3377, Page l-pk MR. SPEAKER(MCNICHOLAS) : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, with the state of our economy the minister has the gall to bring in a bill to amend the School Tax Authority. Now, Mr. Speaker, you would think the minister would have had the common decency to come in and bring in an amendment to that bill abolishing the school tax, then the minister would be a hero in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, but instead, what did she do? God forbid, she is trying to sock it to the people. Mr.

Speaker, it is a disgrace The minister should be ashamed to come in with such an amendment, trying to make further collections for the School Tax Authority, trying to get more money from the people. It is not bad enough that she already this year saw fit to increase the price of school books in the Province, increases of from 40 per cent to 6o per cent, now she is coming in and saying, Look, what about parents we are missing in connection with the school taxes? we should sock it to them. MR. TOBIN: Who introduced this School Tax Authority? MR.

WARREN: I do not care who introduced it, but I know who wants to get rid of it. And if you want to talk about past administrations, ask who brought in the increase in sales tax, from 7 per cent up to 12 per cent. Who brought in the increase in sales tax? MR. TOBIN: Who created the sales tax? MR. NEARY: You have the opportunity to wipe it out over there, you know. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, this government- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. NEARY: You are the government, you can do what you like. 7328

November 24, 1983, Tape 3377, Page 2 -- PIZ MR. DINN: There was nothing when you were in, we have regulations here now. MR. NEARY: I see. Okay, everything we brought in, why do you not abolish it? You have been there eleven years. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, on my way to work this morning I stopped at a particular place and I was talking to a gentleman, say, in his late forties or early fifties, and he knew I was a member of the House of Assembly, and he said, 'One thing always puzzles me, how can you be a Progressive Conservative in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador?' MR. NEARY: Contradictory, is it not?

MR. WARREN: He said, 'They are progressive and they are conservative, but they are progressive because they are progressing with every tax that is available to them - MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. WARREN: - and they are conservative because they are closing down every hospital. This is where you get Progressive Conservative.' And that gentleman was pretty fair. They are progressing with every tax that they can place on a human being, and closing down any facility that is needed to save a human being's life. MR. NEARY: Fines and Taxes. That is all they are good at, opening jails, fines, and taxes.

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3378 MJ 1 MR. WARREN: So, Mr. Speaker, this government was elected nearly two years ago and rightly so, the people in the Province gave them a resounding victory. At that time, Mr. Speaker, many, many people voted with the belief that we were going to have a smoother - MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a stranger just came into the House and delivered a document to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) . Mr.

Speaker, I would submit that that is totally against the rules of this House, and that the Minister of Justice apologize for this happening to the House, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, you have to get elected to get in on the floor of this House and nobody dare enter the corridors or the Chamber to come in on the floor of this House unless you get elected to get here, Mr. Speaker.

And an hon. gentleman - not an hon. gentleman - a stranger just walked into the House, casual as you like - just to show you how the House is deterioating as a result of the arrogance of this administration - walks in to the Minister of Justice, who is not in his seat, passes him in a document and then very casually, nonchalantly walks Out. Mr. Speaker, that is not allowed in this House, unless now the government are going to resort - they got forty-four elected over there,now they are going to resort to bringing the officials in to try to take us on. I would submit, Mr.

Speaker, that somebody owes the House an apology. It is a valid point of order, Mr. Speaker, and I believe the Minister of Justice should explain and apologize for the actions of one of his officials. MR. OTTENHEIMER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Justice. / JJ

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3378 MJ - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I have rarely heard such nonsense. An employee of the Department of Justice put his hand in around the door and handed me a couple of pieces of paper. So it can be said that he should not - MR. NEARY: Walked in on the floor of the House. MR. OTTENHEIMER: - have done it and that is agreed, he should not have done it. Are we going to send him to jail, are we going to call him before the Bar of the House, are we going to have the man fired - MR. WALSH: Drawn and quartered. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: - probably drawn and quartered, tarred and feathered, burnt at the stake? I am not sure, whatever Your Honour thinks is more appropriate. We would have to check with the Fire Commissioner before we burn him at the stake, and we would have to get some tar and feathers before we took that process. Obviously, he is not supposed to be in the House of Assembly. What he did was hand in two sheets of paper, I am sure totally inadvertently, and I do not know that there is much more, really, that can be said about it. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas) : To that point of order, I rule there is a point of order, he should not have been in the House. But I did not see him, I was referring to my notes. MR. ANDREWS: And nobody else saw him. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. p the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we have to rely on the protection of the Chair and the Commissionaires and so forth in this House for our safety and for our security. Now, Mr. Speaker, as a result 7331

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3379 lB-i MR. NEARY: of that incident that just took place1 and hon. members may think it is funny, but it is the first time in twenty- one years that I have seen that happen in this House. Unless somebody is invited in on the floor, they do not dare come through these doors. MR. HOUSE: I thought Mr. Shaheen was in here one time. MR. NEARY: Yes, invited in. But, Mr. Speaker, the point that I am making is that the government should be able to control their corridors. MR. ANDREWS: They also let Mr. Doyle in. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is not a bit funny.

The hon. gentleman should go down to Feathers or down to Friends. He is in the House of Assembly now. If the hon. gentleman wants to have a good time, this is not the place for it. There are other places. MR. STAGG: How about the Laurier Club? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the point is it brings into focus the security of this House, that anybody could come up and walk in through the door, walk into the Chamber and attack a member if he so wished. MR. ANDREW5: You must be worried about it. MR. NEARY: No, I am not a bit worried about it. If I was the hon. gentleman I would be worried. Mr.

Speaker, it is a very valid point of order and I would ask the Chair to take a look at the procedure in the corridors. We have on our door out here 'Private', and you are not supposed to come into the corridor unless you are invited, and I believe the same thing applies to the other side. The matter concerning the official of the Department of Justice who walked in on the floor, the minister explained that and I presume that has been resolved. But, Mr. Speaker, we should take steps to see that it does not happen again. 7332

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3379 IB-2 MR. NEARY: I want the assurance of the Chair that while we are sitting in this House strangers will not be wandering in and out, and that we will be secure in our seats in this House. We are entitled to that protection, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD) : To that point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I would like to say a few words. I think the hon. gentleman is pressing it to death. The hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), when he spoke to the point of order pointed out that inadvertently somebody had passed a piece of paper to him.

Obviously there are rules in the House that only elected members are allowed to be here,and people like the staff of the House. His Honour ruled on the thing, that there was a point of order. Now, you know, what does the hon. gentleman want? You know, he talks about safety and security and he blows it out of all proportion. Let the punishment fit the crime and let the hon. gentleman not take himself so seriously. Obviously it is a matter that should not have occurred. But obviously,also it is something that when it occurred was not a flagrant breach and it will not occur again.

The hon. gentleman is beating the matter to death. The real point of order is the type - I do not derogate, it was a valid point of order, but there is another point of order, that that hon. gentleman over there thinks that he can take the House on his back anytime he wants to. The Speaker of this House made a ruling and he said he sustained the point of order. That was not good enough for the hon. gentleman7 he had to get up with his histrionics and he wants assurances, he says, from the Chair and from the Speaker that he is going to 7333

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3379 IE3 MR. MARSHALL: be protected, that nobody is going to come in and beat up the hon. gentleman, andthat his safety and security aregoing to be looked at. I meanhe goes into great flights of fantasy, as he does from time to time.

November 24, 1983, Tape 3380, Page 1 --SD MR. MARSHALL: He started off proceedirs today by saying he was going to bring peace to the world. He got up in the House and he debated a bill for an hour and he had to be called to order in the House for irrelevancy. He gets up on a point of order and he is sustained, and that is not good enough for him either, no, no. The hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) isoingto run the House, and he is going to take this House on his back, and he is going to determine the way it is run, and he is going to ask Your Honour for assurance that this is not going to happen again and that you are going to protect him , and that he is going to be looked after. He is going to determine everything. And that is the way the House goes with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, but it is going to go over the governxnentts dead body. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is he has beaten the subject to death.

An incident occurred which should not have occurred, but it is not earth shattering. These thing occur from time to time. The Minister of Justice(Mr. Ottenheimer), to all intents and purposes, has gotten up and indicated that, but it is not good enough for the hon. gentleman, he has to define the world, the little world, the way he wants it to be defined. But that is just not the way it is, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman has been out of order himself from the way he is getting on, let there be no doubt about it.

First of all, there was a point of order, that the incident should not have occurred, but let the punishment fit the crime and not make mountains out of mole hills. MR. NEARY: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward) : Order, please I have heard arguments from both sides on this point of order. I do consider it a serious matter when someone comes into this House who should not be in here. The seriousness of it would depend upon theperson who comes in. This matter of a stranger entering the House today was dealt with -, ' ' r / J)O

November 24, 1983, Tape 3380, Page 2 -- Sd MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): by the Speaker who was in the Chair at the time, I will bring it to the attention of the Sergeant- at-Arms and the Speakert s Office will look ater it. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That is all we are asking the Chair to do. We did not need the poison and the arrogance of the hon. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. NEARY: You are getting too arrogant and too dictatorial over there, boy. This is not a dictatorship. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I will continue to speak on this bill that the Minister of Education(Ms. Verge) saw fit to bring in. AN HON. MEMBER: Are you leaving? MR. NEARY: I am going to get my thirty pieces of silver from the Bank of Montreal. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please MR. NEARY: I am going down to the bank with my hands out to get my thirty pieces of silver. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: This bill on the School Tax Authority that the hon. the Minister of Education saw fit to bring into this House today, as I said earlier, I do not think it is necessary.

There are more important issues that could be dealt with, such as the state of our economy. This is not going to help our economy. What is this going to do? This is just going to sock it to more people in this Province. I would suggest to the hon. minister that if the School Tax Authority has to stay, if the school boards have to collect taxes, then I would suggest to the minister that she should get back to the school boards and get the school boards to issue statements and bills and invoices to all Newfoundlanders 4 7336

November 24, 1983, Tape 3380, Page 3 -- sd MR. WARREN: and Labradorians. Because as the minister realizes, and I believe it is still a fact - do federal employees pay school tax at the present time? MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward) : The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, with leave of hon. members I would like to answer the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains' question. MR. SPEAKER: By leave. 7337

November 24, 1983 Tape 3381 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: Federal government employees and federal Crown corporation and agency employees are indeed liable for school taxation. However,the federal government and federal agencies have refused to co-operate with School Tax Authorities in this Province the same as all other employers have to co-operate,by carrying out payroll deductions and making remittances to the School Tax Authorities / so, effectively,lots of federal government employees,and even some CBC employees,are getting away with breaching the School Tax legislation and failing to pay their school taxes. MR.

SPEAKER (Mr. Aylward): Order, please! Before we continue-at 5:00 we were involved in a point of order - I have to advise the House now that there are no questions for the Late Show. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, there are no questions for the Late Shows Mr. Speaker, as you can understand,with the answers we get to questions asked today, it is not worthwhile going on to the Late Show. Mr.

Speaker, I think it is a disgrace. if we have the School Tax Authority in this Province,which I do not believe we should have here, and there are people working with the federal government or with CBC, or with Crown corporations who do not pay the school tax. If there is an invoice issued for school tax in this Province,and it is the law of this Province,then everybody should pay it. Mr. Speaker, sometime ago, I think it was March 24, 1983,the hon. minister said in debate on a school tax bill, and I would like to question her,

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3381 15-2 MR. WARREN: As a result of the first part of the exeráise the government has established a committee of officials to look at the technical aspects of administering school taxation to try to make the system more efficient, and the committee is due to report in about a month'. Now the minister said that on March 24, 1983. I hope when the minister closes debate on this bill, the least she will do will be tell us about this committee of officials, who are checking over the technical aspects, who brought back a report within a month and tell us what the report contained.

Were there any recommendations in the report? The minister said on March 24, 1983 there was a committee set up. Surely goodness the month must be up by now, and surely goodness she must have a report. And if it is not confidential - it should not be confidential, because it has to do with the school tax,and taxes in this Province are everybody's business. Mr. Speaker, in the same address the hon. member for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr.

Hearn) said at the time, and I quote what the hon. member said1 just to show that the school tax authority in his estimation and in many other people's estimation is not working, "I think perhaps the poll tax to which many of them are reverting is the only fair way, but I am not happy at all with the total picture as it relates to the School Tax Authority'. Now, there 7339

November 24, 1983 Tape No. 3381 IB-3 MR. WARREN: is an honourable member and I am sure if he were to say what his convictions are he would say the same as the members on this side, 7340 4

November 24, 1983 Tape 3382 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: abolish the school tax. The minister asked, 'Where would we get the revenue?' There is $900,000 going into a health care study, where we will be paying Mr. Osbourne and Mr. Pynn and a few others $100,000 or so• There is some of the money we can get. What about all the money we are wasting on the Ocean Ranger inquiry? Look at all the money that is being