British Columbia Hansard — Monday, April 7, 2003 (37th Parliament, 4th Session) (H0407pm-02) (H0407pm 02)

H0407pm-02

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Monday, April 7, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Volume 14, Number 2 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.................................................................................... ..............................Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management.................................................................................... ..................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca/hansard In addition to printed transcripts, Hansard Services publishes transcripts on the Internet and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L) ................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Monday, April 7, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Tributes....................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 6039 Burnaby Lake women's rugby team J.

Nuraney Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 6039 Statements (Standing Order 25 B).............................................................................................................................. .............. 6039 Economic development in Okanagan-Vernon area T. Christensen Psychiatric centre in Kamloops K. Krueger Jewish Educational and Cultural Centre in Victoria S.

Orr Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 6040 Health care wait-lists and waiting times J. MacPhail Hon. C. Hansen Emergency care case at Prince George Regional Hospital P. Nettleton Hon. C. Hansen Energy plan and resource development W. Cobb Hon. R. Neufeld B.C. Arts Council funding L. Mayencourt Hon. G. Abbott Health care services in remote and rural communities J. MacPhail Hon. C. Hansen Marijuana grow operations and electricity theft D. Hayer Hon. R.

Coleman Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6043 Estimates: Ministry of Human Resources (continued) L. Mayencourt Hon. M. Coell J. MacPhail J. Bray G. Trumper I. Chong Second Reading of Bills ........................................................................................................ ................................................... 6066 Coalbed Gas Act (Bill 16) Hon. R. Neufeld J. MacPhail W. Cobb J. Bray

Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6071 Estimates: Ministry of Management Services (continued) J. MacPhail Hon. S. Santori Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6080 Estimates: Ministry of Management Services Hon. S. Santori R. Harris J. Bray

6039 MONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Tributes BURNABY LAKE WOMEN'S RUGBY TEAM J. Nuraney: I have the great pleasure in announcing to the House that yesterday afternoon, the Burnaby Lake women's rugby team won the coveted West Coast Women's Rugby Association championship with an impressive score of 22-0. I had the great pleasure of attending that game. It was very well played and demonstrated the true spirit of teamwork and sportsmanship.

As we excel in sports and athleticism, I would like the House to join me in congratulating the Burnaby Lake women's rugby team for this very well-deserved win. [1405] Introductions by Members K. Krueger: T hi s i s p e r hap s n o t s o m u c h a n i nt ro - duction as a warning that members or guests walking into the Finance minister's office should avoid glancing to the left for fear of eye damage, because there is this dazzling light off a diamond ring in that office.

Melanie Hughes, one of the assistants of the Minister of Fi- nance, has graciously consented to give her hand in marriage to my legislative assistant, Steven Puhallo, a little cowboy from Kamloops who I never dreamt would do this well in Victoria. Would the House give them all their congratulations. H. Bloy: It gives me great pleasure to stand in the House today. I have a few friends, like the hon. Minis- ter of Labour. I have two lifelong friends up in the au- dience here, whom I've known since elementary school, and they're so kind as to allow me to stay there when the House is in session.

Also, they're celebrating their thirtieth anniversary today, so they've come to the House to celebrate. If you could please join me in mak- ing them welcome. I would like to announce their names: David and Sue Brooks. J. MacPhail: I'm pleased to welcome to the legisla- tive chamber today Mr. Theodore Hawryluk. He is a person with a disability. He will be joining us during estimates, and I'll have much more to say about Mr. Hawryluk and his disability in estimates. Would the House please make him welcome. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN OKANAGAN-VERNON AREA T. Christensen: Each spring the Vernon Morning Star's reporters do a great deal of work to put together the newspaper's annual business review and forecast. On March 26 the Morning Star 's regular Wednesday edition included a four-section, 116-page pullout busi- ness review titled "There's no Place like Home." The lead

article is headlined: "Optimism Springs to Life in Valley." To avoid being accused of misrepresenting the media, I'm going to quote directly from the article: "Often the media is accused of sensationalizing the negative happenings in the world and ignoring the positive stories that would help counterbalance the doom and gloom. Or perhaps it's human nature to take for granted all the magnificence of living on a daily basis in the north Okanagan. People are often well aware of issues like the softwood lumber debate and the fiscal challenges facing Victoria but are not so informed of some of the real success stories right here in their own back yard." The

article goes on to highlight the expansion of some of my constituency's most prominent employers, telling the reader of the millions of dollars being reinvested by Tolko and Riverside to keep those companies competitive, the continued expansion of Okanagan Spring Brewery that experienced double-digit growth last year, and that Owens-Illinois is investing $5 million in its Lavington glass plant to ensure its long-term success. Turning the pages, you read of the ongoing success of the Coldstream Ranch, notwithstanding the chal- lenges a dry year presented. We learn that optimism is growing in the fruit industry.

The newspaper reports on the outstanding success of the Vernon and District Performing Arts Centre in its first 16 months of opera- tion and of the continued penchant we have in the north Okanagan for celebration, whether for the Fun- tastic Summer Festival or the Vernon winter carnival. It's most unfortunate that I'm limited to two min- utes, for there's a great deal of good news in Okanagan-Vernon, as reported by the Morning Star . I thank the Vernon Morning Star editors and reporters for examining what is happening in their back yard and my back yard.

Their work clearly demonstrates that the north Okanagan is home to a vibrant eco- nomic, social and cultural community and that there is no better place to be. PSYCHIATRIC CENTRE IN KAMLOOPS K. Krueger: Mr. Speaker, on your behalf and mine, and for all of our constituents in Kamloops and Kamloops–North Thompson, I want to take this op- portunity to congratulate all of the people involved in the construction and opening of the psychiatric resi- dential…. [Applause.] That doesn't come off my time.

The psychiatric residential rehabilitation centre in Kamloops. [1410] I was delighted to join the Premier and the Minister of State for Mental Health in opening the South Hills Psychiatric Rehabilitation Centre on Friday. This marks the completion of the first phase of our government's promise to build a centre of excellence in Kamloops. This was a promise that was made by four previous Premiers of British Columbia and, until now, a promise

6040 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 that had been unfulfilled. It's a $4.2 million facility which will provide homes for 40 patients from River- view and will greatly improve the health care successes in mental health rehabilitation. Kamloops will enthusiastically embrace and wel- come the patients when they begin arriving later this month. South Hills offers a modern, home-like setting which is significantly different from the outdated insti- tutional setting at Riverview Hospital.

I'd like to share the impression that was made by reading a quote from the Kamloops Daily News : "With hardwood floors, ma- ple trim, skylights and glass block accents, the build- ings appear more a luxury hotel than psychiatric hospi- tal." This is how our government is caring for mental health patients. I'm absolutely delighted to know that many more facilities such as these are going to be built by our government. Phase two of the Kamloops centre will begin construc- tion a little later this year, and I look forward to attending that opening as well.

This will complete a $20 million promise by our government, a tangible and remarkable demonstration of good faith on the part of the Premier and the Minister of State for Mental Health. JEWISH EDUCATIONAL AND CULTURAL CENTRE IN VICTORIA Mr. Speaker: The member for Victoria-Hillside. Interjections. S. Orr: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Do I get three minutes? In 1863, 140 years ago — imagine, before electricity, motor cars, telephones, video games and all that good stuff we've become accustomed to — a small group of Jewish families came to Victoria to supply those pass- ing through en route to the gold rush.

These families built the first-ever synagogue. This is the oldest con- tinuously used Jewish house of worship in Canada, and yesterday Congregation Emanu-El hosted the offi- cial opening of the new $1.3 million Jewish Educational and Cultural Centre adjacent to the Congregation Emanu-El synagogue. Rabbi Harry Brechner and many special Jewish peo- ple invited first nations, political, religious and commu- nity leaders to take

part in the simcha of the century, aptly themed "L'dor va L'dor" — f rom generation to generation. The simcha gadalah is the big celebration, and it was a wonderful success. The new Jewish Educa- tional and Cultural Centre will have classrooms for He- brew studies, adult cultural and religious studies, a li- brary, preschool and — the first ever for Vancouver Is- land — a mikvah, translated as a ritual bath. Thank you, Congregation Emanu-El, for adding such a wonderful addition to our community. Shalom. Mr. Speaker: That concludes members' statements. Hon. M. Coell: I seek leave to make an introduc- tion.

Leave granted. Introductions by Members Hon. M. Coell: I'd like to introduce to the House Bryson Stone and 40 members of the Kinsmen Clubs of British Columbia. They've been here for lunch, and they're here to watch question period. Would the House please make them welcome. Oral Questions HEALTH CARE WAIT-LISTS AND WAITING TIMES J. MacPhail: Last fall I asked the Minister of Health Services about the growing number of British Columbians on wait-lists.

He assured this House that he had put in place reforms that would bring those numbers down in the months to come — after he blamed the doctors' job action for the lists rising. Can the minister explain why, then, according to the government's latest numbers — the government's latest numbers — there's been a 21 percent increase in the number of British Columbians languishing on wait-lists than when they took power? Hon. C. Hansen: I think one of the things I made quite clear last April, when we rolled out the redesign of the health service delivery in the province, was that there were no quick fixes.

I think the member knows t h i s v e r y w e l l f r o m h e r t i m e a s M i n i s t e r o f H e a l t h . I guess the unfortunate

part is that the change to a new and more modern health care system didn't even hap- pen while she was the Minister of Health. We are get- t i ng o n wi t h t hat jo b . I m ad e i t q u i t e c l e ar, an d i t 's i n our service plan, that there would be some short-term disruption of wait-lists, but clearly we're putting the kind of systems in place that are going to give British Columbians more timely delivery of the health services they need and deserve. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplementary. [1415] J. MacPhail: Interesting, Mr. Speaker.

Other than blaming the doctors last time, that's exactly what the minister said a year ago. Now, in every category save one that the government measures, wait-lists have grown since this government took power. There are 4,000 more British Columbians waiting for cataract surgery. There are 4,600 more people waiting for orthopedic surgery. There are 2,000 more waiting for general surgery, 500 more waiting for gyneco- logical surgery, 200 more waiting for hip replacements and 500 more waiting for knee surgery. There are 5,000 more waiting for eye surgery other than cataract surgery.

Can the minister point out to us where in the New Era document it says that under a Liberal government, the number of British Columbians on wait-lists would grow?

MONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6041 Hon. C. Hansen: What we are doing in the health care system throughout British Columbia is actually building networks of care and not the fractionalized, disjointed system that was in place while she was Min- ister of Health. That change, we know, is disruptive.

We know that it is also necessary if we're going to start to deal with some of these really profound problems t h a t h a v e b u i l t u p o v e r t h e l a s t d e c a d e o f n e g l e c t i n terms of health care management in British Columbia and the lack of leadership that we saw from that gov- ernment when she was Minister of Health and when she was in cabinet. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplementary. J. MacPhail: I'm sure that will give great comfort to the thousands more that are waiting on the lists now than when this government took over.

But it's not just the wait-lists that are going up. The amount of time that people are spending on those wait-lists is up as well. Here's according to the government's own num- bers. It takes 2½ more weeks to get cardiac surgery t h a n i t d i d w h e n t h e L i b e r a l s t o o k p o w e r . I t t a k e s s i x weeks longer to get knee surgery. It takes almost two weeks longer to get dental surgery. It takes 1½ weeks longer to get orthopedic surgery. It's been 691 days since the election, 691 days of decline in our health care system. Will the minister just admit what his own numbers tell him?

In the new era, there are more British Columbians spending longer on surgical wait-lists. Hon. C. Hansen: I think, as I indicated in the an- swer to the first question, we are finally making the kind of changes that are necessary to deal with this. We're trying to bring physicians together, specialists together and surgeons together into groups of care so we can actually start to ensure that patients get timely access. That is not a quick fix, and we made that quite clear to everybody last April when we first rolled out this design. We are seeing some very positive results out of that.

We are seeing specialists that have been recruited into communities around British Columbia for the first time ever. We are seeing new diagnostic equipment that is up and running in communities throughout British Columbia. As a direct result of those changes, we're actually, for the first time in over 12 years, going to be able to start to deal with some of these fundamental underly- ing problems with the system. EMERGENCY CARE CASE AT PRINCE GEORGE REGIONAL HOSPITAL P. Nettleton: I, too, have a question for the Minister of Health Services regarding health care delivery in northern British Columbia.

About a week ago Gladys Lillian Brown was receiving dialysis at Prince George Regional Hospital, and she fell. The shunt came out of her arm. She was clearly in need of treatment, but she was released. At her residence she was bleeding under the skin, she was without a pulse, and she had to catch an ambulance back to the hospital. Then she had to wait six hours to be admitted, during which time she suffered a heart attack. The Prince George Citizen today reports that early Saturday morning, Gladys Lillian Brown, age 75, died at PGRH from choking on her own vomit. Mr.

Minister, is this the kind of health care northern residents should expect from your government? [1420] Hon. C. Hansen: Certainly, I am aware of this par- ticular case, and I have read the

article that was in the Prince George Citizen. My sympathies and condolences go out to the family. The northern health authority is investigating the circumstances around this untimely death. Mr. Speaker: The member for Prince George– Omineca has a supplementary question? P. Nettleton: Yes.

I'm glad the minister mentioned the northern health authority, because a woman has died, but the only information I can get, that I ever get from any query to the communications officer of the northern health authority, is: "That's confidential." Last November a small surplus for the northern health authority was forecast, so my office called today for an update. Again the answer was: "That's confiden- tial." Can the minister update northern residents on the concluded fiscal year for the northern health authority?

I f i t w a s a d e f i c i t , t h e n m o r e f u n d i n g m a y h a v e k e p t Gladys Lillian Brown alive. If it was a surplus, then why aren't these funds being used to save lives? Hon. C. Hansen: I think the member knows the requirements that everyone in the health care system must observe when it comes to patient confidentiality. Indeed, if the health authority had released confiden- tial information about a patient's circumstances, that would have been highly inappropriate. I think the member probably knows, if he would check the date, it's now April 7.

The fiscal year for the health authority ended less than one week ago. Cer- tainly, all of the information about the health authori- ties will be presented this year in terms of their final year-end numbers in a much more timely way than they have ever been presented since regionalization was first introduced in British Columbia. I know that as soon as the information is available, it will be made available to this member. ENERGY PLAN AND RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT W. Cobb: My question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines. Within the last couple of weeks some of your staff held public information meetings around

6042 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 Williams Lake. We had a good turnout, and I thank your staff for the excellent job they did. We in Cariboo South have great potential for min- eral and coalbed methane exploration. We need the development of these industries to provide jobs and revenue for support for health care and education. Un- fortunately, one of the biggest development hurdles, of course, is access to sufficient power sources.

Can the ministry tell us how the new energy plan supports fu- ture development of these industries and access to hy- dro in my riding as well as the rest of the province? Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes, the member is quite correct when he says that there are huge resources in his con- stituency. Around the whole province there are huge resources that we need to develop in a timely fashion and in an environmentally sensitive way, so we can continue to have the health care and education that we require in the province. We're encouraging development of coalbed meth- ane mineral resources.

We also have put into place an energy plan that brings forward, again, energy from a corporation that is publicly owned, which the people of British Columbia own — B.C. Hydro — and that has oversight by the B.C. Utilities Commission to make sure that our rates remain the lowest we possibly can. It's a cornerstone of our energy plan. It's another cornerstone to incorporate independent power producers across the whole province, so they can provide or help provide to industry low-cost power so that we can develop those resources.

I think we have a good plan that the member's constituency is going to be happy with well into the future. B.C. ARTS COUNCIL FUNDING L. Mayencourt: My question is to the Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services. Active involvement in the arts is a very important part of our community in Vancouver-Burrard, but it's true in the rest of British Columbia as well. To support the goal of a healthier and more creative community, we made a commitment in the New Era document to support the B.C. Arts Council through increased grants.

I wonder if the minister can tell me, given the fiscal constraints we're under here in government, whether we're going to be able to keep that promise. [1425] Hon. G. Abbott: The member is right. There are enormous benefits to active arts and culture communi- ties, whether it's my hometown of Sicamous or the member's hometown of Vancouver. Arts and culture are critical to having vital communities in British Co- lumbia. I'm also pleased to note that prudent management has its rewards. I know prudent management wasn't something we were accustomed to in that period, say, from roughly 1991 through 2001.

Certainly, since that 2001 period we have seen prudent management. One of the benefits of that is that we've been able to protect, at $11.1 million, our funding from this government to the British Columbia Arts Council. K. Krueger: Didn't they build some fast ferries? Hon. G. Abbott: I'm not going to mention the fast ferries in this answer, member. I think that's way over the top to do that. I can't imagine using the fast ferries in this particular answer. I will, however, make a note of this.

We have, in addition to protecting the $11.1 million, also brought into play a $5 million Olympic arts fund that's going to be of enormous benefit to the arts communities in Brit- ish Columbia through 2010, when we host the 2010 Winter Olympic Games. We have also brought into place a book publishers tax credit, which is going to be of enormous value in enriching the cultural community in British Columbia. Mr. Speaker: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Hon. G. Abbott: We look forward, as our economy improves in the province of British Columbia… Mr. Speaker: Thank you very much. Hon. G.

Abbott: …to seeing even more support to the arts and culture community. HEALTH CARE SERVICES IN REMOTE AND RURAL COMMUNITIES J. MacPhail: Continuing on health care, we now know that more people are waiting longer for surgery. W e k n o w p e o p l e a r e n ' t g e t t i n g t h e c a r e t h e y n e e d i n the north and that there are deaths arising from it. I want to talk about Cortes Island. The government said that they were going to prom- ise small communities health care where they need it and when they need it.

Cortes Island has just learned that its doctor on call is no longer to be, that this gov- ernment has cut the services and the payments to the d o c t o r o n c a l l s o t h a t C o r t e s I s l a n d h a s n o p h y s i c i a n services for many hours during the week and the weekend. How is that in any way the new-era promise, where this government promised people that they would get health care when they need it, where they need it? Did that exclude Cortes Island? Hon. C. Hansen: In terms of physician compensa- tion in this province, we increased the budget for that in this last year by 20.6 percent.

British Columbia actu- ally has the highest per-capita payments for doctors of any province in Canada. In fact, we're about 19 percent higher on a per-capita basis than Ontario. We're about 42 percent higher on a per-capita basis compared to Alberta. Just recently I rolled out the new rural and remote physician compensation arrangements in British Co- lumbia to make sure that remote communities can be covered throughout this province. Physicians through-

MONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6043 out both the remote and the urban parts of this prov- ince saw a significant increase in their remuneration. MARIJUANA GROW OPERATIONS AND ELECTRICITY THEFT D. Hayer: My question is to the Solicitor General. Marijuana grow ops are a serious problem in my con- stituency of Surrey-Tynehead and in neighbourhoods throughout British Columbia. It seems to me that one way to identify grow ops in residential areas is for po- lice to check residents' hydro bill records for a pattern of unusual power consumption.

Can the Solicitor Gen- eral tell my constituents whether the police and B.C. Hydro share information to identify potential grow ops in residential neighbourhoods? Hon. R. Coleman: If they'd stay on the meter, it would probably be easier to track them, but they actu- ally bypass the meter directly, which creates a huge fire hazard. We estimate about $50 million a year is actu- ally stolen from B.C. Hydro and B.C. taxpayers. Police and Hydro do work together on information-sharing. They do work together on certain strategies they put into place.

We don't actually publicize those strategies, so the guys we're trying to catch can't figure out what we're up to. We're not going to do that today. I can tell the member that the patterns lead us to investigations t h a t d o h e l p u s t a k e d o w n g r o w o p s , a n d w e ' l l c o n - tinue to enhance those investigative techniques for both Hydro and for the police. [End of question period.] [1430] Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: In Committee A, I call Committee of Supply. For the information of members, we'll be beginning the estimates for the Ministry of Manage- ment Services.

In Committee B, the large House, I call Committee of Supply. For the information of members, we'll be debating the estimates for the Ministry of Hu- man Resources. Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:32 p.m. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HUMAN RESOURCES (continued) On vote 30: ministry operations, $1,417,493,000 (continued.) The Chair: We're going to have a short recess through the call of the Chair. The committee recessed from 2:33 p.m. to 2:37 p.m. [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] L.

Mayencourt: I have a lot of people in my commu- nity who are living in the category of persons with disabil- ity and, most particularly, those individuals living with HIV/AIDS. Prior to the introduction of the Employment and Assistance for Persons with Disabilities Act, there was a

schedule C category for people, and there was a lot of concern in my community and throughout the province about

schedule C. At the time that we were debating that bill, you made a commitment that of those individuals that had gone through the

schedule C tribunal process, which was quite lengthy and quite involved and caused a great deal of stress for people who went through that, their benefits would be protected. I wonder if the minister could tell me: have you been able to maintain those

schedule C benefits that were hard-won by those individuals? Have they been maintained in this current year and into the future? Hon. M. Coell: I can give the member…. There were a number of people grandparented, as you know. The numbers for

schedule C. There were 652 grandpar- ented; for the food portion, there were 2,492 grandpar- ented; for bottled water, 1,709; and for vitamins and minerals, there were 2,509. Those persons were all grandparented into the program. L. Mayencourt: That's an important point, because for my community, those people went through a riga- marole and a process that was very, very involved. They had to really prove that they were in need of these benefits, and so I'm grateful for that. [1440] Under the Employment and Assistance for Persons with Disabilities Act, we replaced the

schedule C with the monthly nutritional supplement, and I wonder if the minister could tell me how many individuals have applied for and are currently receiving the monthly nutritional supplement. Hon. M. Coell: Just a clarification — and I may have given the member that information. There were 652 grandparented. The food number, the bottled wa- ter and the vitamins and minerals — those are new, under the new program. L. Mayencourt: I take it by the minister's answer that, in effect, more individuals have been able to ac- cess that particular program. Hon. M. Coell: All of those are new. L.

Mayencourt: One of the complaints that I heard constantly from individuals in my community with respect to the old process, where they went through a

schedule C application process, was that they were almost invariably declined. They went through an ap- peal process which was ultimately always appealed by

6044 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 the Ministry of Human Resources, and then it was sent on to the B.C. appeals branch, I guess, for resolution. In all of the cases, it seems that the B.C. Appeals Board always found in favour of the client that was applying for those benefits. That was kind of a real cumbersome process that was developed over the course of the previous four or five years. I'm told by people who had gone through the process that the process took between eight and 16 months.

I am wondering if the minister can tell me: if I were a person living with a disability today and applied for and qualified for the monthly nutritional supplement, how long would that process take from the time of applying and being evaluated to the point that I actu- ally started to receive those benefits? Hon. M. Coell: It's been between one and two months. L. Mayencourt: That is a very significant improve- ment in the overall time that people wait for these kinds of benefits because, quite frankly, people are in great need.

If they have need of this monthly nutritional supplement, they are in fact in great need, and of course their lives are…. The majority of these individuals are living with a life-threatening illness — either HIV/AIDS or perhaps Crohn's disease or other illnesses that decrease their abil- ity to intake food and maintain body mass — so I think that's a great improvement. The next area that I wanted to ask about was….

I understand that we now have an ability for persons living with disability to actually retain more of the money that they earn, and I wonder if the minister could just say a little bit about the earnings exemption. I understand that that has increased, and I wonder if the minister could just say how we've been able to manage that. Hon. M. Coell: When we took office, the earning exemption was at $200. That would be that a person with a disability would be able to earn $200 on top of their income assistance and keep that $200.

What we wanted to do was encourage people, if they can, to work — to work even part-time — so we increased that to $300 and then this year have increased it to $400. Someone now, with the status of a person with a dis- ability, can earn up to $400 a month and keep that over and above the income assistance and other benefits that they may get. L. Mayencourt: Another question that I have has to do with employment opportunities and, specifically, around training opportunities.

I had the pleasure of working with Destinations, which is an agency in my community that provides job training for individuals that need to develop some skills and improve their appropriateness for the workforce. I'm wondering if the minister can tell me a little bit about the number of programs that he supports finan- cially through the ministry in terms of getting people job-ready. [1445] Hon. M. Coell: In this year's budget we have $110 million for employment and training programs.

Of that, $24 million is specifically earmarked for people with disabilities, and there is a range of programs in there dealing with everything from volunteer work to part-time work or for services — job placement into permanent employment — as well. There's a spectrum of programs that are being developed and are all going out for RFP in the next while. Some have been done. As I say, there is $24 million in there for persons with dis- abilities, and that's an 80 percent increase in that budget since we took office. L. Mayencourt: Thank you for that piece of informa- tion.

A lot of this gets centred around the lower mainland, and I wonder if the minister can speak to the issue of where those job-training programs are being offered. Are they being offered, for example, in the Prince George area? Are they offered around the province? Hon. M. Coell: The ministry has just recently moved to have five regions. It was previously nine regions. It now has five regions that match up with the health regions and also the regions contemplated by the Ministry of Children and Family Development. The programs will be distributed. The $24 million will be distributed throughout the province.

What we will be doing in the RFPs is trying to distribute that money as to the number of people on our caseload for persons with a disability. L. Mayencourt: There are individuals who do not have a disability that are living on income assistance, and I'm sure the job-training programs for them are great. I know that some people with the persons-with- a-disability category are taking advantage of some of those training programs.

There's a little bit of a grey area in between those who have persons-with-a- disability designation and those who have not, and that's for the persons with persistent and multiple bar- riers to employment. I can recall that there's some really excellent work b e i n g d o n e i n t h e d o w n t o w n e a s t s i d e b y o r g a n i z a t i o n s like Tradeworks and many others out there — the Coast Foundation and so on.

I know when those groups applied for the job-training dollars, they didn't make it, simply because it seems that the measure of their success didn't measure up to some of the goals or targets that had been set. Yet the successes that those agencies can provide us with — while they are smaller, perhaps, than other agen- cies — are significant, and so I am concerned about whether those types of agencies, particularly those in the downtown east side and the downtown south, are going to have access to the training-for-jobs dollars. Hon. M. Coell: I may have mentioned it before.

What we're looking at is a continuum of programs, and we're working with the Vancouver agreement with the downtown east side on some pilot projects looking specifically at the types of people you've mentioned.

MONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6045 Mr. Chair, if I could introduce my staff; I failed to do that: Robin Ciceri, deputy minister; Randy McDon- ald, who is the executive director of corporate services; and Andrew Wharton, the assistant deputy minister. J. MacPhail: Thank you to the member for Vancouver- Burrard. What is the caseload for social assistance for the province of B.C. right now? [1450] Hon. M. Coell: The caseload as of February, which would have been the last month that we published it, is 122,513. J. MacPhail: And how many people are on welfare? Hon. M.

Coell: As of February there were 183,312. J. MacPhail: Perhaps the minister could break those down into the categories of social assistance, please — the larger categories. Hon. M. Coell: I can break the caseload down for the member: single men, 50,096; single women, 33,125; couples, 5,223; two parents, 4,859; single parents, 24,969; child in the home of a relative, 4,241. J. MacPhail: And the children would be listed in the categories of two parents and single parents? How many children are there under the age of 18? Hon. M. Coell: The total would be 54,958. J.

MacPhail: So children are about 30 percent of the number of people who are on welfare. Is that right — 55,000 of 183,000? Hon. M. Coell: Correct. J. MacPhail: How many people under the age of 18 are being diverted from foster care to social assistance? I know the minister was in the room when I was discussing this with the Minister of Children and Family Develop- ment. It arose out of an

article in the Vancouver Courier dated March 9, I think, so I'm sure the minister will have had time to see it. It was reported by Family Services of Greater Vancouver that 15- and 16-year-olds were being diverted to welfare. I know there are independent living arrangements now, but this was a much different report. Has the minister had a chance to look into that? Hon. M. Coell: Yes, I have, and children in need of foster care are not being diverted to the Ministry of Human Resources. There has not been a significant increase in 15-to-16-year-olds receiving income assis- tance over the last six months.

There are 22 16-year- olds and one 15-year-old receiving income assistance as of February 2003. J. MacPhail: And that's income assistance, the min- ister said. So did the minister have a chance to follow up with Family Services of Greater Vancouver on that issue? Hon. M. Coell: The ministry does, on a regular basis, have discussions with the Ministry of Children and Family Development, but we haven't discussed that newspaper

article with the agency. [1455] J. MacPhail: When were the changes introduced into social assistance in terms of qualifying changes and rate changes? Was that April 1 of 2002, or was it earlier than that? My next question to the minister is going to be a comparison of the categories prior to the rate changes, o r t h e r u l e c h a n g e s , a n d n o w . I j u s t w a n t e d t o k n o w when they were introduced. Hon. M. Coell: April of last year. J.

MacPhail: I guess what I would be interested in looking at, then, is the same statistical breakdown of the caseload for February '02 — you know, the cate- gory of single men, single women, couples. Hon. M. Coell: I don't have the information from the previous year's estimates with me, but I can take that as a request and get back to the member with that. J. MacPhail: I have quite a bit of area to explore on this, because the ministry is claiming great credit for getting people off welfare to work. Surely there's track- ing that goes on, and I wanted to see how it worked per category — where people were, etc.

It's a substan- tial area of exploration. Hon. M. Coell: The only thing that I have is Janu- ary '02. And I have the total B.C. employment and as- sistance cases, and that's at 155,556. J. MacPhail: And the number of people? Hon. M. Coell: As of January '02 there were 245,018. J. MacPhail: I'm sure the minister will appreciate how important this is, with major changes going through in April and the government claiming success in the area of moving people from welfare to work. I'd like very much to see the changes in the categories. The number of children will be an interesting….

Anyway, it's the only way that you can discuss trends. I'll carry on, and perhaps the ministry can, in the course of the next hour or so, get those statistics so that we can have that discussion. To begin with, though, I'll just ask my questions that in a way flow from this. The rule about only being able to claim two years of social assistance in five kicked in, I understand, on April 1, 2002, as well, so we've completed year one of the policy. Can the minis-

6046 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 ter tell me how many people have been on social assis- tance for that full year? [1500] Hon. M. Coell: I'll take that on advisement and, hopefully, get that within the session today. J. MacPhail: The ministry plans to reduce its budget by 30 percent by '04-05. Where is the ministry at in terms of that target? Hon. M. Coell: As the member knows, last year's budget was $1,671,801,000. This year our estimates are $1,417,493,000, and so we're on target to meet our esti- mates this year and our three-year plan. J.

MacPhail: For the record, what will the budget be for next year, '04-05? Hon. M. Coell: The three-year plan that we an- nounced in February of last year calls for a budget of $1,220,593,000. J. MacPhail: What are the plans for getting to that next step? It's interesting to note that job creation in t h i s p r o v i n c e h a s n ' t p i c k e d u p t h e d i f f e r e n c e . I n f a c t , looking closely at the statistics of the job creation even of the last month, it was more about people leaving the province. There were jobs created, but they were jobs in the science and technology area.

Well, maybe people are moving from welfare to work in that area, but look- ing at it, I didn't suspect they were. So there are many people leaving this province. But what are the plans in terms of getting to the next $200 million budget cut? What are the plans for changes in regulations to income assistance? Hon. M. Coell: We don't foresee any further changes to regulations or to legislation. As the member will remember, the major changes were made last year, and we're in the process of implementing them. I don't think there's anything new on the horizon.

I would just comment on the job creation — that there were 78,000 jobs created last year , some part- time, some full-time. This year I believe there were 12,000 last month and 18,000 this month, so the trend is in the right direction. One of the things I've empha- sized is the job opportunities that range between 400,000 and 500,000 jobs a year opening up in the prov- ince.

We want to make sure we have the training pro- grams and employment programs in place so our cli- ents will be able to take advantage of those opportuni- ties and, as the economy improves, to take advantage of the opportunity of the new jobs as well. So there are "available jobs" and "new jobs," and we want to concen- trate on our clients being ready, able and eligible for those opportunities. [1505] J. MacPhail: Well, that's why I actually wanted the statistics, so we can talk about that in detail and not just spin.

I want to see the trend of who is moving off welfare and whether they're people who actually have jobs or not, by category, etc. It's actually key to the na- ture of my questioning, and also the two-years-in-five is key in terms of preparing just what needs to be done this year, because I would assume…. I'm a little taken aback seeing there's nothing planned for this year, be- cause we could have — I don't know — a thousand, 2,000, 5,000 or 10,000 people hitting a wall this time next year of being ineligible for welfare by the gov- ernment's own rules. So I want to know what the plans are for that.

Perhaps we can discuss it in those terms. Hon. M. Coell: The program that was put in place last year and the three-year plan involve a number of people who don't have time limits. I can get that list of people for the member. For those people who are em- ployable, the time limits are part of their eligibility, and what every one of those people will have is a job plan. They'll be enrolled with job placement or training for jobs, so there's a whole number of things.

We want to work with people who are employable and, over that two-year period, make sure they have the skills and the capability of finding employment. Two years is a long time, and it may not take a lot of people that long.

I realize that, but just for the mem- ber's information, the time limits do not apply for per- sons with disabilities and their dependents, for persons who are 65 years or older — and we do have some on our caseload, not that many — for children in the home of a relative, for persons in receipt of hardship assis- tance, for persons who have persistent multiple barri- ers to employment and for persons who have been admitted to a hospital or special care facility for ex- tended care. So there are a broad range of people for whom income assistance time limits aren't a variable.

For the people for whom it is a part of the income assistance eligibility, as I said, there are the job place- ment, the job training and especially the employment plans. From, I think, a good perspective it gives our staff a way of helping people who are employable right from the day they come into the office and need assis- tance. The employment is part of the plan, and the plan is worked on with the client and our staff member. J. MacPhail: So are the 55,000 children exempt from the two-years-in-five? Hon. M. Coell: Yes, that's correct. J.

MacPhail: So all of the parents and all of the cou- ples are exempt from the two-years-in-five rule? Hon. M. Coell: I think the question is — and I may have misunderstood you: the children of the parents are exempt…? J. MacPhail: Children in the home of a relative are exempt from the two-years-in-five. That's 4,241 chil- dren. However, there are another 55,000 children whose parents collect welfare; they're either as a couple

MONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6047 or as single parents. That group, in my understanding, can only collect welfare for two years in five. Is that right? Hon. M. Coell: I thank the member for that clarifi- cation. If the children are under three, the parents are ex- empt. If the children are over three, the two-in-five is part of the eligibility, but they would only receive a reduction in rate of $100 a month. They would still be eligible for income assistance. J. MacPhail: Okay. But when one is collecting wel- fare…. I am fortunate enough to never have had to do that, but $100 a month per….

I think on a family basis i t ' s m o r e t h a n $ 1 0 0 p e r m o n t h , b u t i t ' s a h u g e c u t . S o what are the plans for these children? [1510] Hon. M. Coell: The member asked what plans there are. I think I would go back to that the plans are that you have a two-year window to work with indi- viduals. We have $110 million in this budget — $110 million for job training and placement programs. These are people who are employable and for some reason need income assistance, whether it's bankruptcy or divorce or whatever leads a person to need income assistance. These are employable people.

We want to m a k e s u r e w e h e l p t h e m i n t o e m p l o y m e n t , b e c a u s e their families will actually do a lot better if they work. I think all the studies we've seen across Canada and the surveys we've done show that people who leave in- come assistance make two to three times more money than they were making on income assistance. J. MacPhail: How many people have applied for welfare and not qualified in the last fiscal year? Hon. M. Coell: The ministry has never tracked that, and we didn't last year as well. J.

MacPhail: I'm hearing all sorts of anecdotal sto- ries, which I promised I would bring up here, about people who are ineligible for welfare because they own a car or they own a house. Most of them are in the for- est sector, this sector that the government takes such pride in saying they're going to do such wonderful things. They also don't hold out any hope of getting a job real soon in their community. What happens to those people then? Let me just be very clear. What happens? Are they supposed to move? In towns like Terrace, one-third of the houses are on the market, so you can't sell your house.

I be- lieve the rule change now is that people are being told to sell their house, and they have to sell their vehicle. So there are no statistics, even informal statistics, being kept in towns like Terrace or that of the number of people who are coming for help and are ineligible? Hon. M. Coell: Most of the clients, I think, that you're describing would be on employment insurance. We do have, as the member knows, the labour market agreement with HRDC of $290 million. As I said, the ministry has never tracked those who apply and do not meet the eligibility test.

It's something that we didn't increase doing this year. We just followed previous practice. J. MacPhail: Well, much has changed, and sorry, these people have run out of employment insurance. There are cases of families that are tragic. These are people my age that have worked all their lives, but their employment insurance has run out because there's no work in this northwest corner, and they're ineligible for social assis- tance because of the tightening up of the rules.

It is interesting that the minister can claim such credit for people moving from welfare to work, but he relies on the old standard of "that's the way it's always been done" to find out how many people, because of unemployment, are now ineligible for coverage under social assistance. I expect there's a reason for that. It's because that bad news would outweigh whatever good news there is in the other area. With whom is the minister working to reach his budget reduction for this year in terms of getting peo- ple off welfare? [1515] Hon. M. Coell: I j u s t w a n t t o b e v e r y c l e a r .

W e ' r e not telling people that they need to sell their house to get income assistance. One of the things that we're working towards is employment. I think that is very evident in the struc- ture of the changes we made to income assistance — that employment is a major part. I realize that the pre- vious government — the member being the previous minister — started down that road. We have, I think, improved on the process, but it will still need im- provement as the years go by. When you look at the types of capabilities people have on income assistance, that may change.

You're right: there are downturns in the economy that affect different people, and you'll have to look at that over the years to come. But the ministry wants to make sure people suc- c e e d , and we w ant t o m ak e s u re p e o p l e f i nd e m p l o y - ment in British Columbia. As I said, it's sort of a two- pronged thing. You have to make sure that the econ- omy is actually growing and that there are jobs there, but you also have to make sure that people on income assistance have the confidence and the skills they need to move off.

From everything I've seen in my years in government, once someone leaves income assistance for work, they're going to be making two or three times m o r e t h a n t h e y w e r e o n i n c o m e a s s i s t a n c e . Y o u c a n ' t stress that benefit for individuals and families enough, so we'll continue to do that. J. MacPhail: Well, perhaps through you, Mr. Chair, the minister could tell me what he is telling people about selling their house, because they're being asked to have a lien put on it. Isn't there a lien being put….? Perhaps the minister could clarify that.

6048 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 Hon. M. Coell: That was something that was in the legislation last year and will not come into effect until later this year. What it is, is that a lien on a house where someone has equity in that house will not be put on until the seventh month of being on income assis- tance. We want to ensure that people requiring short- term temporary assistance will not be affected by the lien. Someone on long term who has a lot of equity in a house, we would want them to pay back the income assistance once that house is sold. J.

MacPhail: And when does that take effect this year? Hon. M. Coell: October of this year. J. MacPhail: And what other province does this? Hon. M. Coell: Manitoba and Ontario have similar requirements for property owners, and, actually, Mani- toba has been using liens for over 35 years. J. MacPhail: And in Ontario, it's extremely controver- sial. In fact, I heard that it had been delayed. But if the min- ister is saying it's actually been implemented, that's news. So come this October, there could be…. Because it's anecdotal evidence, I was trying to confirm it with some actual statistics.

But the anecdotal evidence comes in every day in huge numbers about people, particularly in the northwest, who have been in the forest sector and some coastal communities as well, whose EI has run out and who are ineligible for social assistance, and they have been…. So now, if indeed they want to…. Well, maybe it's that they're ineligible around their car. What's the rule change around the car, which this government has brought in? Hon. M. Coell: The asset limit for singles actually went up from $500 to $1,500, and the asset level for a car is $5,000.

In the past you could actually own a Por- sche or a Rolls-Royce and still qualify. We wanted to make sure a car was valued at $5,000. [1520] J. MacPhail: So, okay, these forest workers actually have cars worth more than $5,000. That's absolutely right. Just the same way that all the MLAs from the north say: "Oh God, you southerners don't know about i t . T h a t ' s w h y w e n e e d t o r e m o v e t h e l u x u r y t a x a n d make people buy bigger cars…." So they have it. They're told that they have to sell their cars and then, in the future, that there will be a lien on their house.

I think this is something that the minister should try and track. Is there any opportunity for him to work with these people in the transition funds that were set up under the Forestry Revitalization Act? Hon. M. Coell: The member is correct. There is a forest transition fund. It has a cross-community mem- bership. It has IWA, our staff, workforce adjustment activity, and we're also working with EI and HRDC. J. MacPhail: What's the input from this ministry? Hon. M. Coell: We have a staff rep sitting on the federal community committee. J.

MacPhail: What I meant was: what contribution in terms of changing the rules of qualification will this ministry be contributing? Hon. M. Coell: We're just in the process of develop- ing how the workplace adjustment program will work. At this point that's the main focus. J. MacPhail: The people who are having to fill out the review form to qualify for benefits under disability benefits level 2 — if they don't return their reassess- ment forms, many believe that their benefits will be cut in June by $300 a month.

Many believe that they will also lose their enhanced medical and bus pass and will no longer qualify for their housing and, therefore, will be forced to move. Can the minister update us on how many forms have yet to be returned? Hon. M. Coell: There are 800 forms to be returned. We have contacted 700 of those people and know at what stage the form is in, and we'll still be contacting the further 100. J. MacPhail: When was the reassessment deadline moved to — March 15, was it? Hon. M. Coell: Yes, that is correct: March 15. J. MacPhail: So 800 forms are still to be returned.

What is the status of benefits, come June 15, for those 800? Hon. M. Coell: As I said, there are about a hundred people that we haven't contacted or haven't been able to contact yet, but we'll endeavour to do that. We want to make sure everyone gets their forms in so they can be adjudicated by June 15. As I said, with the 700 we know exactly where they are, whether they're with a doctor or a social worker or actually in the mail in some cases. J. MacPhail: Yes, I know, but what if they don't have their forms in by June 15? [1525] Hon. M. Coell: The only ones I could comment on would be the 100.

If they don't submit, their rate would go down. The other 700 — we know they're submit- ting, so they will have an opportunity to be adjudi- cated. J. MacPhail: Is there some reason why the minister won't say those 700 rates will not be reduced prior to adjudication? Can the minister guarantee that for those

MONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6049 700 people — and I'm hoping it's 800 people — their rates will not be changed until adjudication? Hon. M. Coell: That is correct. J. MacPhail: How much did the ministry and gov- ernment in total spend on this reassessment review of people with disabilities? Hon. M. Coell: As the member knows, the review process is underway, and it won't be completed until after June. At that point we would have an assessment of what it cost and what the numbers are for any changes. J. MacPhail: The ministry spent a bunch of money in '02-03.

How much did the ministry spend in '02-03 on the review process, and how much have they got budgeted for '03-04? Hon. M. Coell: In this year's budget, for this financial year, it's $3.8 million. As the member knows, we just fin- ished the year-end of '02-03. Reconciliation is underway, but we will have an accounting for any additional costs for adjudicators and related staff expenses. J. MacPhail: Yes. Then there's also money the min- istry has given to support agencies to assist as well, so that will be included. Doctors' fees. Does the $3.8 mil- lion include doctors' fees? Hon. M.

Coell: Yes, that would be all-inclusive. J. MacPhail: I assume the $3.8 million is in addi- tion, then. That's this year's money, and there will be several hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions for '02-03. Hon. M. Coell: Yes. There will be costs in '02-03. Those will be in the reconciliation report. J. MacPhail: In this category of people that I asked about for February '03, is there a separate category for people with disabilities getting DB-2 benefits? How many cases and how many people are there? [1530] Hon. M. Coell: Last year there were 45,366. This year, as of February 2003, there were 46,392. J.

MacPhail: And those are individuals? Hon. M. Coell: Those are cases. J. MacPhail: I assume they're not part of the 122,513 cases that we talked about earlier. Or are they? Hon. M. Coell: They're included in that number. J. MacPhail: Can the minister tell me how many people are in those cases then, please? Hon. M. Coell: A s o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 3 t h e r e a r e 56,519. J. MacPhail: Okay, this is very interesting. So the figures for '02-03 across the board will be…. I really do need them.

Already there are 56,000 people under DB-2 and 55,000 children, which is almost two-thirds of the number of people — maybe not quite, but almost 60 percent of the number of people — so I'm very anxious to know where the ministry is going to cut another $200 million out of its budget. How many people were there last year — we can get that figure, February '02 — on DB-2? Hon. M. Coell: I'm sorry. I didn't hear the last sen- tence. J. MacPhail: Well, the minister gave me a figure for the year '02-03 of 45,366 cases. I'm wondering how many people were DB-2 last year. Hon. M.

Coell: I don't have that number, but I will get it for the member. J. MacPhail: What's the budget this year for DB-2? Hon. M. Coell: There are two areas in the budget, and I'll take a bit of time to explain this. There's the temporary assistance, where people are expected to work and/or are temporarily excused. The continuous assistance is for persons with persistent multiple barri- ers and persons with disabilities not expected to seek work. [1535] The budget for continuous assistance for this year is $444.35 million.

There will be some people with dis- abilities who are being paid out of the temporary assis- tance account. These will be people who are actively looking for work or involved in the $24 million worth of training programs for people with disabilities, so there is a budget of $16.25 million to be added to that $444.35 million. That would give you your total. J. MacPhail: Does the minister have the figure for what the budget was for the — I guess it was eventu- ally — 14,000 people whose cases needed to be re- viewed under disability? Was it 14,000 that it eventu- ally was?

How much assistance were they getting for '02-03? Hon. M. Coell: You could calculate that. We never did in putting this budget together. There is a budget for persons with disabilities. There would be 47,486 in the estimates. That's the budget of how many people would be on disabilities this year. J. MacPhail: I heard the minister saying he'd re- ceived 6,000 new applications for DB-2 or something, and it's gone up a thousand. What's the discrepancy there? I asked — and my colleague from Vancouver– Mount Pleasant asked — week after week, and he kept

6050 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 on saying there were 6,000 new applications. It looks like there's a thousand that qualified. Hon. M. Coell: We've actually received 8,000 as of today. Every year we have about — I'm thinking back four or five years — 10,000 go off the former DB-2 cate- gory, so we figure that will be consistent. You generally have or have had about 6,000 come on per year, but you have between — as I say, depending on the year — 5,000 and 10,000 go off DB-2. We suspect that will be the same with persons with disabilities. J.

MacPhail: Why was the minister relating this to a question about the review? I remember him giving this answer in the Legislature to a question I was asking about these particular reviews. It's really irrelevant. It's got nothing to do with the question about the review or not — the minister's answer about how many applica- tions come in or not. I guess it did obfuscate those that were listening for a while. I make it so that 111,000 of 183,000 people are either children or people with disabilities on the….

We really are looking at where this government's going to have to cut $200 million out of — I assume, unless they're going to start attacking people with disabilities and children — about 70,000 people on welfare. Am I miss- ing something? Hon. M. Coell: Through the Chair, I'm not sure I caught a question there. There was a comment, and the member can correct me if I'm wrong. It's the rate of growth. If you look at the disability caseload over the last six or so years, it was ranging at an increase of about 10 to 14 percent a year. We're pro- jecting an increase of about 2 percent. J.

MacPhail: Why is that? [1540] Hon. M. Coell: There are a couple of reasons for that. I think that almost doubling the amount of money we're spending on employment programs for disabili- ties will enable more people who have disabilities to leave income assistance. As I said earlier, in the average year you have 5,000 to 10,000 people leaving income assistance. Most of t h a t i s f o r e m p l o y m e n t . W h a t w e w a n t t o d o i s a d d employment opportunities, and more people will find employment. That's one side of it.

The other is that the change in the legislation and the change in the defini- tion will have an effect on the level of increase. The previous increases of 10 to 14 percent were not in keep- ing with national averages, which were actually about 2 to 3 percent. J. MacPhail: You're right. British Columbia was a much kinder place to people with disabilities in the 1990s — much kinder. There are many provinces where people with mental illness are not included in any coverage. So you're right. It was a much kinder, gentler place in the 1990s for people with disabilities, and the tightening up….

Frankly, I don't understand the minister somehow suggesting that it's employment that will move people with disabilities off the rolls and into the job market. He just said that people who could work were working and did work throughout the 1990s. Peo- ple with disabilities don't want to do anything but work, but the employment opportunities aren't there. What success, then, has the minister had specifically with peo- ple on DB-2 moving from DB-2 to work? Hon. M. Coell: The emphasis for this year's budget is on employment programs for people with disabilities.

As I said, since we took office, there's an 80 percent in- crease in employment programs strictly and specifically for people with disabilities. That is going to be a major employment opportunity for people with disabilities. I quite agree. I know many people with disabilities who want to work and have a difficult time getting employ- ment, and we want to level that playing field.

As I've mentioned and I think the member probably knows, the unemployment rate for people with disabilities is 50 percent higher than for people without a disability, so w e w a n t t o m a k e s u r e w e e m p h a s i z e p r o g r a m s i n t h i s year's budget. Previously, there wasn't the emphasis that I think needed to be there. So as I say, we've increased by 80 percent the budget for programs for people with disabilities, and that should help. It's one of a number of things. You still have to have the jobs being created in the economy.

The other area that I want to spend some time on, and I know the min- istry does, is to assist businesses in understanding the specific needs of people with disabilities. To that ex- tent, I have put together a minister's council — all the information is on our website on that — which will help develop programs to enhance a business's ability and desire to employ people with disabilities. There are businesses in our province…. I was meeting with peo- ple from the Royal Bank who have a tremendous pro- gram for hiring people with disabilities, and my own ministry does.

But there are lots of opportunities that are untapped in the community, and we want to make sure that those programs are there and the assistance is there for people with disabilities. J. MacPhail: Yes. I'm asking for specifics. This is the completion of the second year of this government. I'm asking for specifics that validate his point that people are moving into jobs because of this government's em- ployment programs for people with disabilities. Hon. M. Coell: In the past, the ministry didn't track people leaving disability for employment.

I suspect they would have because they started with tracking some specifically for income assistance. The RFP is just going up on the Web for these programs this year, so it will be next year before we see any of the benefits and any of the tracking for people who are enrolled in the programs and who find employment. J. MacPhail: So these programs, when are they go- ing to kick in?

MONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6051 Hon. M. Coell: In November we had $6.7 million of RFPs, and July 1 of this year there will be $14 million. [1545] J. MacPhail: So is that a budget, then, this year of $14 million, not the $6.7 million? Or is it a budget of $20 million? Hon. M. Coell: I'll try and give a little bit of a detail here. In this year's budget, '03-04, there's $2.34 million worth of direct persons-with-disability programming. Then, as well, there's $14.1 million. Then in the public sector training, there's $320,000. Then in the pre- employment services we have $6.75 million.

Then in an innovations fund, there's half a million dollars — a total of $24 million in this year's budget. J. MacPhail: So how many people will that help? I just divided 20 million by 14,000. The reason I did that was because I thought the overall employment budget would be $20 million, and there were 14,000 people who had to hand in a review. I assumed there was some reason why — although the auditor general is going to look into all of this — those 14,000 were tar- geted, and I thought the reason was that people would think maybe they can work.

If you divide 20 million by 14,000, that gives you $1,428 per person for training. What are some of these training programs that are go- ing to move people with disabilities into the workforce, and how much are they costing, and how much is given per person? Hon. M. Coell: The 14,000 that the member men- tioned is part of the review. It's not part of the job train- ing programs. As I say, $24 million are being devel- oped for programs to assist people with disabilities, and it would be our hope that….

The previous gov- ernment had some programs — I think it was about $13 million for people-with-disabilities programs — and that got a certain amount of people back to work. As I say, they didn't give us any background as to how well they were working. I suspect they were working to some extent.

But we want to make sure that our RFPs are accountable and that at the end of the day we can say we spent this money, and these people ac- tually got employment and here's how they got em- ployment, and that there's a continuum of programs in there to meet the various needs and the varying needs of people with disabilities. J. MacPhail: I'm just trying to find out a reason why you're doing this review. I assumed you picked these 14,000…. Is it 14,000 people? Let me just get the right number. Is it 14,000 people who eventually had to hand in the review? Hon. M.

Coell: I'll be detailed, because I want the member to get the details she's asked for. As she knows, the new legislation, the Employment and Assis- tance for Persons with Disabilities Act, introduced a new definition and a designation for persons with dis- abilities. The B.C. Employment and Assistance for Per- sons with Disabilities Act focuses on impairments that restrict a person's ability to perform daily living activi- ties.

This definition is more consistent with human rights case law than the former definition under the BC Benefits Act, which used unusual and continuous monthly expenditures. [1550] There is a legal requirement for the minister to re- view the former disability 2 caseload to determine the eligibility under the new legislation criteria. The defini- tion in the previous Disability Benefits Program Act had many undefined terms, and the application form and the medical assessment was, we believe, too sim- plistic.

There was no specific list of assessors in the regulations, and policy allowed for a broad range of assessors including teachers and school counsellors. As the member may know, the new legislation specifies that assessors be health professionals author- ized under and enacted to practise a profession such as medical practitioner, registered psychologist, occupa- tional therapist or physical therapist. People with men- tal disorders were not specifically included in the defi- nition. The review.

We went through all of the cases, as the legislation required, and found that there were 14,000 people at the end of the day. We just did not have enough information on their files to make the new des- ignation, so the review process required those 14,000 to give us more information on themselves for the defini- tion to be given to them. J. MacPhail: Well, I'm sure that will be work in terms of rewriting history, but that is a complete re- write of history — a complete rewrite of history — starting with the June 2002 briefing note that the minis- ter himself and his staff had about cutting people off DB-2.

In terms of the review, then. It was interesting to note that the minister isn't doing it to help people and that there will be special resources to provide them for moving from welfare to work. It's basically, I guess, to see whether these people are disabled enough or whether they've been actually laggards in terms of fooling people about whether they're disabled or not. I recall very clearly at the time that, even though I worked closely with the community to expand the definition and worked very closely with the commu- nity, they were still upset.

Many people were upset about how qualifying took place or how people didn't qualify. It will be interesting to see what the results of the review are. The $24 million, then, isn't to deal with the 14,000, and none of the programs are in place yet. Well, some of them are in place. When is this migration from DB-2 to work expected to take place? I'm trying to figure out whether any of the $200 million cut in this ministry's budget will come out of DB-2. Hon. M. Coell: Actually, it won't. If you look at the estimates and the budget, there's actually an increase.

6052 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 J. MacPhail: Which gets me back to my point that I made before. The minister actually went off on another tangent, which was fine, thinking that I was asking about what part of the 60 percent of the caseload…. He thought I was just talking about disability 2. I was talking about the entire caseload. The entire caseload as of February '03 is 183,312 people, of whom 55,000 are children and 56,500 are people with disabili- ties on DB-2.

That's 111,107 people of 183,000, so fully 60 percent of those to whom the government pays wel- fare are either people with disabilities or children. That means that the 40 percent are going to bear the brunt of a $200 million reduction, I would assume. What plans are for that? The minister says it's just go- ing to carry on. How does that work, where you take $200 million out of 71,000 people's pockets? [1555] Hon. M. Coell: I'm glad to clarify for the member. The reduction, when you look at the estimates for this year, is in the temporary assistance, the expected-to- work and people who are employable.

The caseload would go down in that category, and the reduction in the funds in that category as well. J. MacPhail: Yes, so he's confirming what I'm say- ing — that the $200 million-plus budget cut in his min- istry will come out of 40 percent of the caseload. It ex- cludes children, and it excludes disability 2. I mean, that's a huge, huge reduction. So what are the plans — just carry on the way we are now? Hon. M. Coell: I think I understand what the mem- ber is saying. If she remembers, we actually were un- der budget in this ministry by a significant amount.

And if I look at caseloads, we need to get, this year, to a total caseload of 118,500 people. The year we started off we were already at 122,500 people. J. MacPhail: Okay. Well, what was the budget for this year, then? The minister told me it was $1.4 billion — the actual expenditure. So what is the actual expen- diture versus…? Hon. M. Coell: As I said, the caseload we're look- ing at for this year is 118,500. We were, last year…. We haven't gone through the reconciliation yet, and the final numbers haven't been published, but an estimate would be that we were under budget by $164 million.

So a lot of that comes out of last year's savings. J. MacPhail: Yes, I'm sorry. Could the minister just give me a figure for the budget for '02-03? The expendi- ture — sorry. Hon. M. Coell: I was just doing some math. I s h o u l d h a v e b o r r o w e d t h a t m e m b e r ' s c a l c u l a t o r a s well. As I said, we haven't done the reconciliation, and the final budget hasn't been published, but it will be approximately $1.5 billion. This year's budget is $1.417 billion. J. MacPhail: Okay. Yes, but '04-05 is $1.2 billion — right? Let me just start again. [K.

Stewart in the chair.] For '02-03 the budget will be around $1.5 billion. For '03-04 it is around $1.4 billion-plus, and for '04-05 it is $1.22 billion. So starting off this year, you have a budget of $1.4 billion. But my point is that you have to have that budget down to $1.22 billion just 12 months from now. So what are the plans? No matter which way you cut it, there's going to be a couple of hundred million dollars cut from the welfare budget in 12 months. [1600] Hon. M. Coell: Actually, the member is not quite correct. The budget….

In 12 months we have to be at $1.4 billion; in 24 months we have to be at $1.22 billion. Both of those reductions are coming out of the tempo- rary caseload. Again, you can see where the assistance in continuous stays pretty level during that time, with an uptake in '04-05. But the reduction in our ministry will come from putting people back to work, out of the caseload of temporary assistance. J. MacPhail: The minister is quite correct to correct me. Over the course of the next 24 months his ministry gets cut by $300 million — $100 million this year and then another $200 million the following year.

So over the course of the next 24 months, $300 million will be cut from the welfare budget. As I understand it, that's like, over the course of the next two years…. What is that? That's a 22 or 23 percent cut over two years coming out of 70,000 people, the temporary assistance caseload. I asked the minister what plans he has for that, and it's sort of: carry on the way it is. So if we're not just booting people off welfare, what's the increase in employment training programs over just the next two years? Hon. M. Coell: I appreciate that question, and I'll try and answer it in a little bit of detail.

When we be- came government, we looked at and did core reviews of all ministries. One of the things this ministry de- cided to do was to make its changes upfront. As you remember, major pieces of legislation were introduced last year that changed the direction for income assis- tance. The projected caseload is…. In total we would like to see it down around 100,000. The employment programs that are stated…. We looked at a three-year window of $330 million over that time and guaranteed those programs.

We refined and retooled many of them and put an emphasis on people with disabilities this year to try and beef up the employment and training opportunities for people with disabilities. Those programs and the legislation were all intro- duced last year. As I said earlier, we don't foresee any new changes to legislation, any new changes to regula- tions. Those changes were made, and with the projec- tion of carrying through and putting an emphasis on employment for people who are employable. I think that, in many instances, managing the system that was

MONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6053 changed last year over the three years will give those budgetary figures. J. MacPhail: So that's the long answer for: "There's no new money — none — for employment." I guess this $300 million cut over the next two years will be people being cut off welfare with no help from the government in moving to a job. Maybe they'll get a job themselves, but let me just explore that a bit, then. The minister wants the caseload down to 100,000 by next year. How many people is that? Hon. M. Coell: We would anticipate about 160,000 people.

It is an estimate, because you don't know the size of families coming in and out of income assistance. [1605] J. MacPhail: So 160,000 people. I need just a second to do my calculation for my next question. Mr. Chair, I calculate that as 4 percent of the population on social assistance. This is the government's goal. What's the rate of welfare use in other provinces — every single one, please? Hon. M. Coell: While my staff is getting those numbers for me, I'll maybe just give the member de- tails. When you look at the 24-month period, the caseload as of February was 122,000.

Our caseload tar- get for this year is 118,000, so that's a reduction of 4,000. Well, our employment programs alone this year were well over 10,000 people finding employment. That's an easy number of people to find work for. The following year, you'd see a reduction of 18,000 people, and last month we created 18,000 jobs in this province. There are opportunities for people on temporary assistance who are employable.

They just need the right training and the right employment opportunities, and they will quickly move off income assistance and start to earn two to three times more than they were on income assistance. J. MacPhail: I love fun with math too. I love statis- tics, but the minister's made a couple of leaps there that are leaps of faith, quite frankly. The reason I want to know what the participation rate in the welfare system is by province is because I want to know how this government, with the highest unemployment rate west of Quebec, manages also to have the lowest participation rate.

It might be called an out-migration strategy. Hon. M. Coell: Unfortunately, I don't have any- thing newer than March of '02 for British Columbia. I can give that to the member — the percentage of peo- ple on caseloads. In Newfoundland it's 9.8 percent, in Prince Edward Island it's 5.4, in Nova Scotia it's 6.5, in New Brunswick it's 6.7, in Quebec it's 7.5, in Ontario it's 5.7, in Manitoba it's 5.2, in Saskatchewan it is 5.5, in Alberta it's 1.8, in British Columbia it's 5.9, and in the Yukon it's 3.4. So there's a variety from 1.8 percent to 9.8 percent within Canada. J.

MacPhail: I think if the minister will check, these rates of participation in the welfare system are fairly constant. The provinces made their big cuts in welfare, except in British Columbia, throughout the 1990s, so they're relatively constant. Here we have British Columbia who next year wants to have a participation rate of 4 percent. The only province that would be lower…. Believe you me, that stat on the Yukon is changing. The only province that would be lower is Alberta, 1.8 percent. Everybody else is around 5.5 to 6.5 percent.

What magic is this government doing that will have a participation rate on welfare of 4 percent and the highest unemployment level west of Quebec? How does that work? Hon. M. Coell: A number of comments. Last year, as we said earlier, we saw 78,000 jobs created. Two months ago we saw 12,000 jobs created. The month previous, 18,000 jobs created. What we're trying to do i s m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e B . C . e c o n o m y p r o s p e r s b y t h e changes government makes to how B.C. is governed. [1610] One thing I want to talk about is the bank of jobs that my ministry has rig ht no w.

This month, this day, we have 7,000 available jobs only available for income assistance recipients. Now, we have contractors who…. Part of their contract with job training and job place- m e n t i s a c t u a l l y t o g o o u t a n d f i n d j o b s . O n e o f t h e abilities for our clients, now that they have an em- p l o y m e n t p l a n … . T h e n , t h e y d i d n ' t h a v e t o d o t h a t . They could just come and get a cheque, and we didn't help them find work. Now part of the income assis- tance program is an employment plan that's worked on and that they have to work on with our staff.

They have to work with many of our contractors. We have some very, very fine contractors through- out the province who diligently look for work, for op- portunities, for our clients and place them into it. Their jobs are good paying. As I say, there are 7,000 of them available today.

When I look at this year's caseload reduction of 4,000 with the contracts that we have, with the emphasis on helping people with disabilities with employment and with the change in direction of the economy of creating jobs rather than losing jobs, those make me very optimistic that we'll reach the targets and that people will find employment in B.C. J. MacPhail: Let's be clear. The job growth rate throughout the 1990s far exceeded what this govern- ment's doing in the first two years. Maybe over the course of the decade they'll match the job growth rate of the 1990s, but they're nowhere near it now.

There is a correlation between unemployment and welfare when you have a safety net that actually meets the needs of people who are subject to the vagaries of the economy. It made sense that the participation rate in welfare in British Columbia was the — one, two, three, four, five — sixth highest in '02, because its un-

6054 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 employment rate was also the sixth highest. That's the correlation. There's no work, or there's not enough work for a body of people. What this government wants to do, with absolutely no plan whatsoever for reducing its unemployment — none…. This government doesn't participate in job creation. It likes to take credit for it. This government doesn't do anything to create jobs. With the unem- ployment rate still being the sixth highest in the coun- try, they want to move to the lowest welfare participa- tion rate — except for Alberta, the lowest.

And there are no plans on how to do that — none. This job creation that this minister is talking about…. It's very hard to pin down specifics. I'd like to know what possible credit this government takes for creating 18,000 jobs or 12,000 jobs or having the highest unemployment rate west of Quebec. What this gov- ernment is doing is that they're going to ask people to leave the province. They're going to force people out of the province. That's what they're going to do. There's the evidence right there.

They're still going to have the sixth-highest unemployment rate, and yet they want to have the second-lowest participation in welfare. T h a t i s s a y i n g t o p e o p l e w h o m a y h a v e b e e n a f - fected by, who knows, the actions of this government — in the forest sector, for instance, where everybody admits there's going to be medium-term pain…. They're going to say to the people of British Columbia: "Move somewhere else.

Get a social safety net some- where else, because we're not interested in providing that social safety net to you." H o w m a n y p e o p l e a r e g o i n g t o b e a f f e c t e d b y t h e regulation change October 1, when this government is going to put a lien on people's homes to recover wel- fare payments? [1615] Hon. M. Coell: This is just an estimate, but we are debating estimates: about 1,600 people. J. MacPhail: And where are they regionally? Hon. M. Coell: I'm sorry. We don't have that in- formation. J. MacPhail: I'd appreciate that information about how this breaks down regionally.

I expect we'll find that in the interior and the coast — those great areas t h a t t h i s g o v e r n m e n t c l a i m s t o h a v e s o m u c h c o n c e r n for — those people live there because the unemploy- ment rate has been so high for so long, yet they did buy a house in their earlier lives when they had jobs. Under the new changes to the disability form, ap- plicants are given 20 days to appeal. Are there any re- sources being provided for people to appeal, given that there have been huge cuts to legal services and advo- cacy services? Hon. M.

Coell: We have made no cuts to advocacy payments from this ministry. The person has 20 busi- ness days to ask for reconsideration, and we have ten days to get back to them. After that point, you would have seven business days to initiate an appeal, and then we have 15 business days to hold that appeal. So the time line is much more condensed for the appeal process. J. MacPhail: Is the ministry doing any tracking of those who had a review and were declared ineligible — about what happens to them after that? Hon. M. Coell: I wonder if the member could ex- pand on that question for me, please. J.

MacPhail: I'm worried about people falling through the cracks. These are people who have disabil- ity 2 payments. They are reviewed, they are denied, and they are declared ineligible for disability 2 pay- ments. Do they automatically go onto temporary assis- tance, or what happens? Are we keeping track of them? [1620] Hon. M. Coell: We will be doing that. If someone applies for disability assistance and they're not already receiving it….

If they didn't receive persons-with-a- disability designation, their EAW would also do a screen for persons with multiple barriers to see if they fit that category, and if need be, they would do an em- ployment plan with that person. Someone who is on the caseload now, who applies and doesn't meet the criteria, would also have an immediate appointment with their EAW to do a scan to see about the persons- with-multiple-barriers designation as well. J. MacPhail: Earlier today, during introductions, I introduced a man who was here for question pe- riod: Theodore Hawryluk.

He actually asked me to read this into the record during introductions, and it wasn't appropriate. But let me read it to the minister now. I'd like to ask the House to rise and acknowledge the existence and presence of Mr. Theodore Hawryluk. Mr. Hawryluk owned and operated several businesses before becoming disabled in 1996. From 1996 until Sep- tember 2002, Mr. Hawryluk was a volunteer news broadcaster at CFUV radio in Victoria to — as he puts it — give something back to his community. After receiving his 23-page re-evaluation, Mr. Hawryluk has become very depressed.

His days are now filled with fear and anger — fear that for the sake of a few dollars the province is losing its soul and an- ger because the backbenchers sit back and say nothing to defend the rights of those that are least advantaged. Mr. Hawryluk is not from my constituency, by the way. Mr. Hawryluk is here today to watch people earn- ing three times his income cut his income by 25 per- cent. Mr. Hawryluk dares any one of us, me included, t o l i v e a s h e d o e s o n $ 7 8 6 p e r m o n t h . T r y t o r e m a i n happy and motivated while being threatened with a reduction to $610 a month. Mr.

Hawryluk is extremely anxious and wishes desperately to be a productive citizen but can't because

MONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6055 of his disabilities. What happens to Mr. Hawryluk if he loses his DB-2 benefits? When he meets with his EAW, does he automatically get the social assistance, or does he have to come up with an employment plan and wait three weeks? Hon. M. Coell: It really depends on the individual case, but what we're trying to do is adjudicate within an eight-week period, which is sort of traditional.

Some have been longer than that, but if we got a review form i n a t t h i s s t a g e , w e w o u l d b e l o o k i n g a t e i g h t t o 1 2 weeks before we got back — but, I suspect, closer to eight. If you received a letter saying, "Thank you very much for the information. It assists us in helping with the designation. You've been approved for the designa- tion, " then nothing would change.

If someone received a letter saying that there wasn't sufficient information to make the definition, then they would have an ap- pointment very shortly with their EAW and look at the screen for persons with multiple barriers to employ- ment. Also, if someone was able to work, they would do an employment plan and go through the employ- ability programs. J. MacPhail: Is there a possibility that people who are now declared ineligible for DB-2 could be cut off for a few weeks or months? Hon. M. Coell: No, that's not the case. J. MacPhail: What happens to them? Do they automatically go on temporary assistance? Hon. M.

Coell: There is a three-month notice once someone has been given…. If they sent in the review form and were approved, then nothing changes. If they did not receive the designation, then they would have three months from that point before any changes, and that would give them time to come in, speak to the EAW about the persons-with-multiple-barriers-to- employment designation or do an employment plan and be in the employment programs. J. MacPhail: Yes, all right. So in the three-month notice, they have to appeal. If they lose their appeal, then do they…? Sorry, I'm not completely up to speed.

Isn't there a three-week waiting period before you go on temporary assistance? Do they have to do the three- week waiting period? [1625] Hon. M. Coell: No, that's not the case. Someone would just be moved either into the persons-with- multiple-barriers category or into the temporary assis- tance category. J. MacPhail: How much money has the ministry budgeted to assess how many of the recipients cur- rently receiving disability benefits will qualify for the employable category? Hon. M.

Coell: I'm not sure I understand the ques- tion, but we have $3.8 million in the budget this year for the assessment part of the review process. J. MacPhail: So the $3.8 million includes the work the EAW is going to do after they've been turned down? Here's how I've been told that people think it's go- ing to work. A person is on DB-2 now. They get the notice saying: "You're not eligible for DB-2." They have the right to appeal. If they lose the appeal, they'll have t o g o i n a n d b e r e a s s e s s e d f o r e v e r y t h i n g w i t h t h e i r EAW.

How much is the ministry budgeting for the transition after they've lost their appeal? Hon. M. Coell: T h a t w o u l d j u s t b e p a r t o f t h e everyday function of the ministry. There's no addi- t i o n a l c o s t t o t h a t . T h a t w o u l d b e w i t h i n o u r s t a f f allocations. J. MacPhail: Can the minister put on the record now what the definition for persistent barriers to em- ployment is? Hon. M.

Coell: For the member — and I'll take a moment here — persons with persistent multiple barri- ers are those persons who meet the following criteria: have received assistance for 12 of the last 15 months; have severe multiple personal barriers to employment; and have a medical condition, excluding addictions, that has lasted for at least one year, is likely to continue or recur frequently for at least two years and seriously hinders their ability to search for, accept and continue employment; or have a medical condition, excluding addictions, that has lasted for at least one year, is likely to continue to recur frequently or for at least two years and by itself precludes their ability to search for, accept or continue employment.

I'd just take a moment longer for the member. An individual's personal barriers are those that are beyond a person's control, cannot be overcome despite all rea- sonable attempts by the client — excluding medical conditions — and directly prevent the person from maintaining employment now or in the foreseeable future. J. MacPhail: That's persistent barriers to employ- ment. What's the definition of multiple barriers to em- ployment? Hon. M. Coell: That's persons with persistent mul- tiple barriers, and there's just that one category. I'm sorry if I didn't add the multiple barriers in.

So there's just the one category: persons with persistent multiple barriers. J. MacPhail: How many people are in this cate- gory? Hon. M. Coell: We're budgeting for 10,000 in this category.

6056 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 7, 2003 [1630] J. MacPhail: Are those 10,000 spread throughout all of the categories as well? When you say you're budget- ing for them, are they part of the…? Or are they just part of the disabilities category? Hon. M. Coell: It's part of the continuous assistance category, but it's a separate category. I think what the member is looking for is: are those people part of the 46,000? They're not; they're on top of that. That would be 56,000. J. MacPhail: Cases? Hon. M. Coell: Cases. J.

MacPhail: So a person who loses her appeal for being kicked off DB-2 would be screened for being eligible for the persistent-and-multiple-barrier cate- g o ry . H o w m any p e o p l e a re i n t he c at e g o ry as o f l as t year? This year you're budgeting for 10,000. How many were in the category last year? Hon. M. Coell: This is a new category. It's not the previous DB-1 category that was cancelled; this is a new category. We're budgeting that 10,000 people will b e i n t h i s c a t e g o r y .

S o m e o f t h e D B - 1 s w i l l b e i n t h i s category; probably a majority of them will be in this category. J. MacPhail: Okay. Could the minister update me on when the change is going to take place and where the DB-1 people have been? When does the change take place, when he says it's a new category…? Hon. M. Coell: The new category actually started September 30. We had started receiving applications at that date. J. MacPhail: How many are in the category now? So all DB-1 people had to reapply for multiple-and- persistent-barrier category. I understand that's correct.

H o w m a n y a s o f n o w o r t h e l a s t t i m e y o u k e p t stats, February '03, are in the multiple-and-persistent- barrier category? Hon. M. Coell: As I said, that new category came into existence on September 30. We've budgeted for 10,000 in that category, and as of today just about 9,000 have been approved and are in that new category. J. MacPhail: So how many does the minister antici- pate will move from DB-2 to the persistent-and- multiple-barriers-to-employment category? Hon. M. Coell: At this point w

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0407pm-02
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0407pm 02
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b5f771a6895522ad50059513d1f6b9706e1bacf4

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).