Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 38A (32nd Legislature, 3rd Session)

32-3-38a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 38A - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 7 JUNE, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANI TOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.A. (Pate) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Stave BANMAN, Aobert (Bob) BLAKE, David A. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CAAAOLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORAIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJAADINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOEAN, Auaaell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, Jamea E. DAIEDGEA, Albert ENNS, Harry EYANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOUALAY, D.M. (Doug) GAAHAM, Harry HAMM OND, Gerrie HAAAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHI LL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYAA, Hon. Eugene KOYNATS, Abe LECUYEA, Hon. Gltrard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKUNG, Q.C., Hon. AI MAUNOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIEA, Q.C., G.WJ. (Gerry) NOADMAN, Aurik (Aic) OLESON,. Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard A. PAAASIUK, Hon. Wilaon PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Aoland PHILI.IPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHAOEDEA, Hon. Vie SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, LA. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriat STEEN, Warren STOAIE, Hon. Jarry T. UAUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuat WALDING, Hon. D. Jamea Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Th ompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gim li Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Bo niface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Em erson Lakeside Brandon Ea st Ri ver East Tuxedo Concordia Swan Ri ver Virden Kirkfield Pa rk Th e Pa s Rupertsland Logan Po rtage la Pr airie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. Jame s St. Jo hns Morris Ro blln-Russell St. Norbert Assinib oia Gl ad stone Pemb ina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountai n Burrows Ro ssmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne Ri ver Heig hts Flln Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Pa rty NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP INO NDP NDP NDP NDP INO NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MA NITOBA Thursday, 7 June, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINI STERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPO RTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: I have a statement to make. Mr. Speaker, earlier this week, my colleague, the Honourable Eugene Kostyra, announced a $3 million jobs fund program to encourage work projects in Northern Manitoba.

Today, I am pleased to announce that the fund has approved the allocation of $6 million for a Community Assets Program which will assist in the construction of projects in southern Manitoban and eight northern urban centres. Although funded by the Jobs Fund, the program will be admini stered by the Department of Empl oyment Serv ices and Economic Securi ty. The program is intended to encourage community groups to proceed this year with capital projects which will mean new job opportunities and im proved local facilities for many Manitobans.

The non-profit community groups, local governments and southern Indian bands will be eligible to apply under the program for financial assistance to construct, renovate or expand a variety of facilities which will be of lasting benefits to Manitoba communities. Appl ications will be received until August, 1984, and all project work will take place during the period September, 1984, to June, 1985. This is a longer work period than previous, but we think it will provide the flexibility necessary for many projects to be completed, particularly those who cannot be carried out totally under winter weather conditions.

I anticipa te that the program will receive many excellent proposals involving good local job opportunities on projects which, when completed, will enrich the lives of Manitobans In many communities. A similar program offered by the fund last year provided funding for 319 commu nity projects and created more than 2,000 jobs. I am certain that the Manitoba Jobs Fund investment in commun ity projects through the Ma nitoba Community Assets Program this year will again bring excellent economic and social benefits to many areas of this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, in responding on behalf of my leader to the announcement made by the Minister of Community Services, certainly let me acknowledge that the commun ities, Indian bands and other non profit organizations, as referred to in the announcement, will be happy to know that a program of support, which has been established for lo these many years, long before such a description as a Jobs Fund was created, is continuing. lt was run very successfully by my former colleague, the Member for La Verendrye. lt was part of an ongoing program which commun ities have had every right to expect from a government, who after all imposes a very high level of the taxation upon these same people.

But, Mr. Speaker, my principal reason for responding to the Honourable Mini ster's annou ncement this morning is to Indicate how we have once again been led down the garden path because there were some of us who believed, and some of us who even acknowledged it in response to the Throne Speech, when special attention was made that the Jobs Fund was moving into areas of permanent economic job development in the private sector rather than the emphasis that had been the case in the first year or two of the Jobs Fund existence. Well, Mr.

Speaker, we do not oppose, of course, these announcements, but let me simply point out that it flies directly opposite to the stated position and the direction that the Jobs Fund was going to take, the statements made by responsible Ministers in that government, by the Premier, by the Mi nister of Finance, and by other Min isters. Now here we have, Mr. Speaker, another $6 million of the Jobs Fund being dedicated to renovating community halls, improving skating rinks and, Good Lord, we all need them.

I have my little community rink in Warren that looks forward to its little application form, just as much as any other community does, of the 319 in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, let the record show those communities received that kind of support. I suppose, Mr.

Speaker, the impetus of that kind of community access program was developed in the year 1967, the year of our great Centennial across this nation. lt was then follo wed up by similar programs in the year 1970, Manitoba's Centennial Program, and since that time community assets have been Improved by various programs under various descriptions by governments of various political descriptions, Mr. Speaker, of various descriptions. But, Mr. Speaker, it was this government that said the Jobs Fund was now going to turn around, and going to redirect its energies Into the private sector and create permanent jobs.

We don' t see that happening with this kind of announcement. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . Notices of Motion . . • INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. M. SMITH introduced Bill No. 16,

An Act to amend The Child Welfare Act. 1682

Thur'WJ 7 June, 1884 MR. P. FOX introduced Bill No. 17,

An Act to amend The Dental Mechanics Act. HON. R. PENNER introduced Bill No. 18, The Statute Law Amendment Act (1984), (Recommended by Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor); and Bill No. 19,

An Act to Amend The Summ ary Convictions Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I di rect the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where there are 22 students of Grade 9 standing from the Mur doch MacKay School. The students are under the direction of Miss Trush. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. There are 20 students of Grade 10 standing from the Hartney School under the direction of Mr. Forsythe. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Arthur .

There are 48 students of Grades 3 and 4 standing from the Erickson Elementary School under the direction of Miss Woychyshy. The school is In the constituency of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Manitoba Hydro - Standing Committee of Public Utilities MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable Government House Leader.

Can he Indicate to us when we can expect to have Manitoba Hydro appear before us, the Standing Committee of Public Utilities, for review of their Annual Report? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honourable Member for Lakeside for his question. I have to answer it in reverse. I basically have to give him the same answer 1 had given to the question in the past, because we've made a commitment that the honourable member opposite requested, that details with regard to the NSP power sale would be provided prior to the sitting of the committee.

I would propose to call the committee Immediately after those details are available. As the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro indicated yesterday, he hopes that will be before the Legislature finishes its current Session, but if it isn't, we're prepared to call it intersessionally into July, if necessary. I don't think that will be necessary. We've every indication that we should be able to provide that information and call the committee well before month end. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Acting Premier of the First Minister of the province.

I ask the Acting Premier of this province to either take the question as notice or pass it on to her Premier, whether she will insist that a longstanding practice of this Legislature will not be broken, particularly in a year where momentous decisions are being made with respect to that Crown agency, that Manitoba Hydro will appear before the Public Utilities Committee of this LAgislature during this Session? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I think an answer really has been given to that question.

I would also point out that more detail of the nature of the financial risk and · the return on the project has already been given and the member opposite appears to have heard. I think again, if he'll consult the announcement made in the Legislature by the Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines, you will find that the main framework information really is there. However, when the committee hearing occurs, that information, when it's appropriate to report because that marks the stage of negotiation, will in fact be available. Education - Science MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C.

MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address my question to the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I have before me the MTS update which makes reference to a report released by the Science Council of Canada. A report and a study was done by them by, I believe it was, one particular subsection of the group reporting on the present status of science education in this country.

I would ask the Minister, in view of the fact that this particular report calls for immediate and sweeping renewal of science education if today's students in elementary and secondary schools hope to live and work successfully in tomorrow's common, complex world of technology, my question is: are there any plans today to significantly alter our science curriculums throughout our schools? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I've said this before, when matters like this have come up In the House, I'm very concerned about sweeping generalizations and sweeping statements made about the education system as a whole that are not relevant to Manitoba, although I don't mind answering specific q11estions about Manitoba's curriculum in education system. I haven't seen that particular document.

The Member for Morris, I think might remember, when we went through Estimates two weeks ago and talked about curriculum, I indicated that we had been making major revisions in curriculum for the last five or six years in Manitoba, far ahead of many of the other provinces who are just now looking at going back to the basics and revising their curriculum, we never left them and we have been revising ours all along. So it's very difficult to respond to a general statment that doesn't deal specifically with Manitoba. 1683

Thurade� 7 June, 1184 MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, this report indicates that analysis of education policies took place in all provinces throughout the nation. Indeed, some 33 commonly used science curricula throughout the nation and some 7,000 science teachers were surveyed. My question is to the Minister, whether or not she at this tim e is going to consider making a con dit ion of graduation a requirement that students have taken science in each and every year up to Grade 11 ? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I think perhaps what might be useful is if I provide the Member for Morris with information about what the requirements are and what curriculum has been changed in the last few years in Manitoba. I also remember a report on basics that was based on the entire country that was so wrong when it came to Manitoba that it didn't apply at all. So I think it's important that he ask questions and that we deal with Manit oba curriculum and Manitoba programs. Since it's very detailed, I'd be glad to provide that information to him because I think it will take more time than they want to give me in question period.

MR. C. MANNESS: I thank the Minis ter for her willin gness to present that information to me. I'd like though to quote one other small

section from the report. it says: "Most teachers at the elementary level" - and again, this was a cross-Canada survey, including Manitoba - "are inadequately prepared for teaching Science." Again, I question the Minister what action that she will take to make sure that these perceived inadequacies, in fact, are remedied? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, it continues to concern me to have the Education critic take a report that is based on the entire country and then stand up in the House and make statements that suggest that what they are saying in general applies to Manitoba. That's one of the problems we have where people don't deal with our Manitoba system and make general negative statements, so I am concerned about that and I think that we should deal just with the Manitoba situation.

In terms of preparation of teachers, we are always looking to improve our teacher training programs and we're in constant discussion with the faculty and the University of Manitoba and those providing the training. I have a meeting coming up I think in the next few weeks to discuss that issue again because it's a very important issue. What I can say is that the teachers of today are better trained than they ever have been before, more qualified.

I think about 15 years ago, only 15 or 20 percent of them had degrees and now it's 85 percent, so that we still have work to do, but they're getting programs in areas, Special Education, Native Education, Special Needs, that was never given before. They are some of the best trained, best qualified, best teachers we've ever had in our system. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister has used the words in her response to the first question that this report was not relevant to Manitoba, but she indicated also that we should talk in a Manitoba context. I will do that, Mr. Speaker.

What answer can the Mi nister give to the survey done within her own department which indicated that a full 60-plus percent of the people are not satisfied with the quality of education offered in our high schools? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I spent a fair amount of time; I released the results. First of all, I had that study done in the first place and I released the results of it.

When I did it, I ind icated publicly to the teachers, to the trustees, when I spoke at their national conferences that that percentage of public confidence in our education system was not adequate. lt's not a crisis, it's not a disaster, but it is not adequate. I said it was an important message for us and that we all had to do a better job of informing the public and parents about what was happening in the schools and involving them in the decisions. So we've already discussed that a great deal in this House and outside.

What I can say to his question about the calibre of our students for Science is, had the members opposite allowed me to make a statement in the House, a non political statement, when I asked to two weeks ago, they would have been better Informed and they would have known that the students of Manitoba swept the country in winning the Science Award in the National Competition that had 400 projects. Manitoba sent 23 students and 12 of them came away with the top awards. We have nothing to be ashamed of with our Science program! A MEMBER: How's that for an non-political statement! Garrison Diversion Project MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnk ster. MR. D. SCOn: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Mi nister of Natural Resources. As a follow-up to his efforts in Washington, D.C., on Monday and Tuesday of this week, has the Min ister any further information that he can give to the House as to the progress of that Issue and the funding for Garrison in the U.S. Senate? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Honourable members will recall that just yesterday I ind icated that I was very optimistic that there would be significant developments in Washington in respect to this matter. I had anticipated that I would be making a statement somewhat later in respect to this, but I understand that some news has now been released in Washington. I want to indicate to the House that there is now an indication on the part of the proponents of Garrison, the leadership of that group is Senator Mark Andrews and Senator Quintan Burdick, that they are prepared to see alternatives studied in respect to the Garrison project.

The studies would be un der a presidential commission which would report by the end of this year, and that commission would be charged with the responsibility of considering alternative uses 1684

ThuredaJ, 7 June, 1884 for Garrison funding and the water development itself. I think that is a very heartening development, Mr. Speaker, one that we have striven for and I think that bodes well for the protection of our resources. Break-ins - police protection MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I took as notice a question from the Member for St. Norbert relating to crimes statistics, particularly statistics which gave him some cause for concern with respect to break and enter.

His question broke down into two parts: one is the statistics themselves; and secondly, remedies for the problem. Now, let me say with respect to the latter, when he talked about asking Crown Attorneys to seek the maximum punishment for those convicted of such offences, I would point out today, as I pointed out yesterday, that the maximum is life imprisonment and I can say categorically Crown Attorneys will not be instructed to seek the maximum sentence for break and enter, the vast majority of which, although serious, are in the petty crime area and involve very young people.

Secondly, his statistical base was wrong and, indeed, the reverse of what he indicated is the picture. Using the actual police statistics collected and confirmed on a national basis, the statistics show that in a period from 1980 to 1983 the increases have been much much different. In fact, in many areas, Brandon is one, there has been absolute decline in residential break-ins of 23.1 percent. The overall increase in residential break ins in Winnipeg over that period of time is only 28.3, averaging less compounded than 7 percent a year.

In fact, the statistics show that for 1982-83 break-ins decreased in Brandon by 18.3 percent, in rural areas by 8.8 percent, and only in Winnipeg was there any increase and an increase far di fferent than tha t suggested by the Member for St. Norbert, relying as he did on press statistics and a release from the insurance industry.

The final comment I have relates to the sentencing practice, and I would point out there have been comments by the Court of Appeal which does adjudge that break and enter is serious, and indeed the Chief Justice of the province.went so far in February of this year to say that he wished to impress upon sentencing magistrates in this province that fines are not the fit and adequate disposition for this kind of offence in the future. He's speaking for the Court of Appeal. We will not hesitate to im pose terms in jail.

We request the Crown Attorney to d;stribute a copy of these reasons to all provincial judges and to all Crown Attorneys so that no sentencing magistrate can be unaware of our views. Those views of course are not binding, maybe persuasive, but I will end this reply as I did yesterday by saying that it is still our view that sentencing should be on an individualized basis and take into account the record of the offender, the age of the offender, and the circumstances of the offence.

The blanket notion that we can ask the Crown Atto rneys to ask for life imprisonment every time there's a break and enter is a horrendous suggestion and it's rejected, utterly. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the statistics which I refer to were contained in a Free Press article, which qu oted representa tives of a numb er of insu rance companies, includin g Au topac, the government insurance company, which quoted an increase of break ins from 1978 or 1979, which showed an increase from $8,000 over $12,000, a 50-percent increase. VVould the Attorney-General indicate what his figures show for the increase?

I believe he referred to a period of 1980 to 1983 for break-ins in the City of Winnipeg. What are the actual numbers? HON. R. PENNER: For the City of Winnipeg between 1980 and 1983, with respect to business premises over the four-year period, 16.2; and for residential break ins for the same period of time, 28.3. In fact, I gave tha t fig ure in my answer and that's an average compounded of less than 7 percent per year. Indeed, I will be pleased to give the member a copy of these statistics. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Mem::;er for St. Norbert.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the Attorney-General is awfully sensitive. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. May I remind all members that this is not a time for debate; this is Oral Questions. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that it is not uncommon that where there is an increase of close to 30 percent in a relatively short period of time in a serious crime, housebreaking, and it has a very traumatic experience on homeowners and there are a lot of homeowners who are frankly afraid to leave their homes these days because of the num ber of break ins that are occurring; in view of the fact that in those situations it is not uncommon, Mr.

Speaker, for the Crown to emphasis the importance and the deterrent effect upon persons convicted of offences in such an area - and I wasn't ask ing that they get life imprisonment; and in view of the statistics that the Attorney-General is now citing, isn't it time the Crown Attorneys asked for more serious punishment for those people convicted of that crime in order to provide some deterrence? MR. SPEAKER: The question is argumentative. Shoal Lake Cottage Development MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of the Environment, concerning a report 1685

Thur8day. 7 June, 1884 that negotiations have been broken off between the Indian Band concerning Shoal Lake and the Manit oba Government and the Federal Government, that these negotiations have in fact been severed. Is this the case? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable me mber shoul d not quote from or report from articles in the Press and ask a Minister for confirma tion. Does the honourable member wish to rephrase his question? MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I was quoting from an

article on the radio or a comment on the radi o . MR. SPEAKER: Qu estion. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, my que stion simp ly is, is it a fact that the negotiations between the Shoal Lake Indian Band, the Federal and Provincial Governme nts and the City of Winnipeg, concerning ou r water supply, have in fact been terminated? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Minister for the Enviro nment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The negotiations and questions Mr. Speaker, involve four parties: the Band, the City of Winnipeg, the province, and the Federal Governm ent.

The four parties in question have been negotiating for a lengthy period of time and these negotiations have been going on fairly smoothly, especially in recent times, now that the City of Winnipeg itself has been taking an active

part in the negotiations. Whether the negotiations have taken part as reported in the paper, this is the first we hear formally. The parties involved have not ·h eard, other than having read this

article in the paper. I would assume , Mr. Speaker, that when you negotiate them, there is an offer made. lt may not necessarily please one or other parties involved in the negotiations and the initial reaction may be simply an exam ple of frustrations and does not necessarily imply that the negotiatons are br oken off. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the importance of a good clean water supply for ou r 600,0 00 people, and in view of the danger of pollution from either garbage or cottage development or boating in that area, can the Minister give his assurance that the water supply of the City of Winnipeg will be comp letely protected from this point on? HON. G.

LECUYER: The memb er was probably here in the House last week when that question was asked by ot her memb ers of the op positio n, and was asked again during the Es tim ates, and the answer was provided that the province was committed to the quality of the drinking water for the City of Winnipeg. lt's not because of an

article in the paper today that the province has all of a sudden dr opped its comm itment. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister confirm or clarify, has there been an offer of compensatio n made to the Band in exchange for them giving up their interest in developing a 35 0-cottage development? Has there been some offer of compensati o n or an offer to purchase property in the vicinity? HON. G. LECUYER: As stated once befo re, the negotiations are between the parties directly involved, and as per agreeme nt among these parties, this will not be revealed publicly until they come to some form of agreement.

Further to that, I can only say that the representative or the negotiators for the Band themselves have invited the other parties to come and visit the actual site where all of these develo pments are being considered. Theref o re it would, in my mind, appear that the negotiatio ns - it could be an indicatio n especially that we're talking about a date specific towards the end of Ju ne for that particular visit by the other parties, that the negotiations are ongoing at this point in time. Helmet legislation MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I have a questio n for the Minister of Health. The question is in relatio n to the impact of the helmet legislation that was passed in this Cham ber last year and just took effect, I believe on the 1st of April, has the Minister received any indication from members of the me dical community as to the beneficial impacts of this legislation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I know that there has been a release from the MMA - and the president happens to be one of the better known neurosurgeons in the pr ovince.

He stated that at this time last year they had treated at least 10 serious head injuries that they were getting at least once a week normally, and that they hadn't had a single one so far this year. Break-ins, residential MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Atto rney General for forwarding these statistics with respect to break-ins to me . The statistics, as he indicated, show a 28 .3 percent increase in residential break-ins since 1980, for a total number of 7,041 resid ential break-ins in the City of Winnipeg, Mr. Speaker.

The Atto rney-General referred to the annual percentage increase. I' d like to know from this Atto rney-G eneral, is the public of Manitoba supposed to accept an increase in break- ins at what he would call an annual inflationary rate, is it to be tied to the Consumer Price Index or can the public in Manitoba expect some action from the perso n who is responsible for law enforcement in this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Atto rney-General. 1688

Thursc181J, 7 June, 1884 HON. R. PENNER: I thank the Member for St. Norbert for asking that question. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I did not at any time tie or relate the increase to the cost of living. That is a gratuitous misleading comment although I'm not saying that he intended to mislead. I say he was misled by relying on erroneous statistics. That was the first thing I pointed out. I had never at any time. He seems a little upset because I think he's been hurt. I never at any time said that our department isn't concerned or that nothing has been done.

In fact 1 pointed to statements made by the senior ·justice officials in this province with respect to sentencing and the statements as is our practice have been circulated to Crown Attorneys. What I did say is that his suggestion that we ought to inflict life imprisonment in these instances was absolutely shameful and I rejected that. Now having been caught out in that appeal to the popu lace he thinks, and the popul ace is far less bloodthirsty than he suggests, he now says or insinuates that our policy is do nothing. Mr.

Speaker, it Is not a do nothing policy, and in fact if he had looked at the'82- '83 statistics and thought about that he would see that overall in the province there is now a ·decline beginning to set in with respect to the num ber of break-Ins. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that residential break-ins in the City of Winnipeg for 1983 compared to 1982 increased by over 600 in the City of Winnipeg, is he not concerned enough to ask Crown Attorneys to treat this matter with some seriousness? I'm sure they're treating it seriously, Mr. Speaker.

But in view of the tremendous increase in this particular crime, to ask the Crown Attorneys to seek more serious punishment against those who are convicted of this crime in order to provide a greater deterrence to people committing these crimes, Mr. Speaker, because it is a very serious matter. HON. R. PENNER: And Crown Attorneys are treating it seriously and the courts are treating it seriously. But neither Crown Attorneys, or the courts are ready to listen to the suggestion that these people should be sentenced to life imprisonment. That's the point of the exchange. Milk prices MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Minister of Consumer Affairs, Mr. Speaker. In view of the statements made by the respresentative of the Manitoba Consumers that the changes made by the Milk Prices Review Commission will cost the consumers of milk in Manitoba more money and that the large retailers will be laughing all the way to the bank, will he as the Minister responsible for comsumers get involved in the Milk Prices Review Commission decision and stop the actions that they're implementing? MR. SPEAKER: Oral questions. The Honourable Mem ber for Arthur .

HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speak er, if that question was directed to me I'm sorry I didn't hear it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, the question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, in view of th e statement made by Joan Friesen, the representative of the Manitoba Consumers that the changes proposed by th e Milk Prices Review Commission will increase the price of milk to consumers and that the large retailers will be laughing all the way to the bank, will he get involved and stop the actions that are being Imposed by the Milk Prices Review Commission? HON. R.

PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I don't accept that statement by the person referred to as being in fact · the consequence of the changes which have been proposed by the board with respect to the wholesale price of milk.

Indeed it's our view that what has been happening is tha t in a price war between major wholesalers, on the one hand they have put a virtually unconscionable squeeze on the small wholesalers and we were concerned about that, but also they were putting some of the big retailers whom they supplied and with whom they dealt on a discount basis, in a position to use milk in a way which we felt in the long term was very adverse to the poslti.Jn of the consumer. lt was our view that if the big wholesalers were allowed to squeeze out the small wholesalers and then develop a complete monopoly of the Industry that the consumer in the long run would pay a heavy price indeed.

We weren't prepared to see that happen. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, it would appear the Minister isn't concerned about the price of milk to consumers. Will the Mini ster of Consumer Affairs check with Joan Friesen as well with the small wholesalers who are, in fact, going to be the ones that are squeezed out with the change, Mr. Speaker, the small retailers, and the implications on small wholesalers that there are implications and pressures being placed on small business people that have to be checked out?

But I would ask him if he will check with Joan Frlesen, and if he'll check with the industry before this move is allowed to take place? HON. R. PENNER: The answer Is yes, Mr. Speaker. Home Management Systems - conflict of interest MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On May 17th, and again on June 5th, my colleague the Attorney General took as notice qu estions regarding the involvement of an employee in my department with respect to some items. I'm pleased to provide a response to those questions.

I would like to report to the House that the report that was requested by the Government from the Provincial Auditor has been received with respect to that employee and her business relationships and I'll be giving copies to members of the House. I should report that the report clearly indicates that there's no evidence of wrong-doing by Mrs. Hyworon. 1687

Thursct.y, 7 June, 1984 The report do es go on to note, ho wever, that in li ght of this case that there is grounds to review the conflict of-interest-guidelines that have been put In place by this government. My colleague, the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission, is in the process of do ing this. I should add that prior to the receipt of the report fr om the Provincial Aud itor, and I would like to thank the aud itor for the prom ptness In provid ing the government with this comprehensive report. Prior to th e receiving of th at report my Deputy Mini ster interviewed Mr.

Hyworon on Friday last and as a result of that interview it was the view of my Deputy Minister that while there was no evid ence of wrong-doing that it would be advisable for Mrs. Hyworon to take steps to di sengage herself from any management or control fu nction with respect to he r outside business interests. To this end she has given instructions to her legal advisors to place he r share of what essentially are fa mily assets into a blind trust and is in the process of resigning fr om any di rectorsh ips or any operational involvement of any kind in these businesses.

I should point out that she had , in line with established policy previously, filed information on these business interest both with her former Deputy Minister, in the Department of Finance, and my Deputy Minister in the Department of Industry Trade and Technology. In conclusion I feel I should dr aw to the attention of members of the House a statement in the Au di tor's Report with respect to Mrs. Hyworon's cond uct and performance of he r du ties in my de partment. Th e Aud itor indicates "t hat there is no qu estion as to her commitment to her work within the Government of Manitoba.

She is highly de dicated to he r work and her effort is exemplary. I should add that I share this view, Mr. Speaker. Manitoba Federation of Labour - feasibility study HON. E. KOSTYRA: In addi tion I took as notice a qu estion on May 28th also fr om the Member fo r St. Norbert with regard to a Jo bs Fund grant to the Manitoba Federation of Labour fo r a feasibility study. I can report that grant ha s indeed been paid out in the amount of $15,000 as ha s a matching grant from the Federal Government of $15,000 for a total for that particular feasibility study of $30,000.00. Sask. Potash - Order for Return MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Government House Lead er. Some months ago my colleague, the Member for Charleswood , filed an Orde r for Re turn asking fo r the amounts of money that ha ve been paid to Mr. Dombowski, and Mr. Messer, former he ad of Saskatchewan Potash Corporation and the former Minister of Mines in Saskatchewan. Can we have an indication from the Government House Leader when we might expect that Return to be filed? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Soon, Mr. Speaker. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, a supple mentary then to the Minister of Energy and Mines. Will he give us upd ated information in addi tion to the Orde r that ha s been fi led to tell us what sort of contractual arrangement has been entered into with Mr. Dombowski and perha ps Mr. Messer, if he's involved, in do ing the present consulting work for the government? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, that's exactly what I intend ed to do. Th at's why I said that the material will be coming soon.

In fact, I think I did inform the Member for Charleswood that I would be providing not only information as to what this government has been spend ing with respect to consultants to try and get a potash mine, but what the Conservative Government spent, Mr. Speaker, in an unsuccessful attempt to get a potash mine. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speak er, a qu estion supplementary to the Minister then. Would he consid er just de aling with that Information that we asked for and forget all the nonsense that he 's trying to bring in on the periphery of the issue to try and cloud it?

Will he just concentrate on the information that we asked for and be able to file it right away, and if he wishes to present the other information to the House he can do that whenever he wishes? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Sp eaker, when th is government accepted their Orde r for Return, and I must say that the record of the New Democratic Party Government, in terms of following order, returning and provid ing information, is 10 times better than the Conservative Government's record was from 1977 to 1981. We Indicated, Mr.

Speaker, that it would be best for the people of Manitoba to get an unde rstand ing of the context in terms of what money was spent for consultants to help governments get potash. We indicated some time ago that that's how we would provide the information, Mr. Speaker, and I'm surprised that the Member fo r Turtle Mountain now is somehow afraid of find ing out what he should have known three years ago. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Lead er. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, just furth er information for the Member for Turtle Mountain.

When the Orde r was accepted , it was accepted subject to certain condi tions as stated by the Minister of Energy, but also subject to cond itions with regard to commercial confid entiality. Education - Science MR. SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Member fo r Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to pose a couple of addi tional qu estions to th e Minister of Ed ucation regardi ng the state of qu ality of education and Science within this province. Mr. Speaker, I'm wond ering if the Minister can inform the House whether 1688

or not the Department of Education is funding, in part, the symposium to be held at the University of Manitoba, I believe on August 13th to 17th, the International Chemistry Symposium, at which time the great architect of social chemistry within this nation, Prime Minister Trudeau, will be the keynote speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that as notice and provide that information. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speaker, I'm wondering, seeing that the Minister also appears to be one of the speakers at that symposi um, whether or not she can find out how much the department is directing towards funding that particular event. I'm wondering if she could also inform us how Mr. Trudeau speaking at this particular event, funded I believe in part by her government, will address the concerns of 60 percent of the people In this province who have genuine concerns regarding the quality of education in our high schools. The Gasoline Tax Act - ch arges MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain . MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. Can the Minister advise whether or not charges are still being laid under The Gasoline Tax Act in an effort to prosecute people who have impr operly used coloured gasoline? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co operative Development. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance having had to leave the room for a meeting, I'll respond as Acting Minister and what I can ind icate to the Member for Turtle Mountain is that we will take that question as notice and get the answer to him as soon as possible. Herbicides and pesticides, use of MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Mi nister of Environ ment. The Mi nister of Environment is proposing regulations to be imposed on the muni cipalities for the application of pesticides. Are one of the regulations that he's planning to impose that before any pesticide is used, that the municipality will have to give 90-day prior notice to the use of that pesticide? MR. SPEA KE R: The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Speaker, the draft regulation that is out for consultation right now is just that, a draft regulation out for consultation to the various agencies of government and municipalities. Copies are available, including one for the member opposite if he wants one, and we're open to receive comments from all of these interested parties. What will the final regulation contain, Mr. Speaker, is too early to project at this time. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to move the motion for the House to go into Supply, but before doing so I believe there may be a disposition, Sir, to stay in Committee of Supply through Private Members' Hour. So before I move the motion, I would ask if there would be leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? (Agreed) The Honourable Minister. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would therefore move, seconded by the Honourable Mini ster of Health, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself Into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of personal grievance. Mr. Speaker, the House, I believe, is beginning to draw to a conc:usion and there is of course a resolution on the Order Paper which will shortly limit Private Members' Hour, and with Speed-up just around the corner there will be few, if any more, opportunities for members to discuss proposals of considerable interest.

I wish to once again raise with the government what I believe is a matter of the utmost importance and urgency, and that is for them to give some guarantee or assurance to this House that they will introduce a procedure for constitutional amendment. Mr. Speaker, I believe that their failure to do so raises a lot of concerns on this side of the House and In the general public in particular.

Because what they are saying to us, in effect, Is "trust us," and I don't think there's anyb..,dy on this side of the House who will ever again trust the government when it comes to the introduction of ; constitutional amendment. They should attempt to divorce themselves from the whole psychological 'lnd political developments that occurred in the province in the past year and look objectively at a procedure that could be introduced that would satisfy not only the members of this House but the members of the total commun ity. Mr.

Speaker, I note with some amusement the fact that the government is no longer very interested or big 1689

Thuraday, 7 June, 1984 on the question of referendums or plebiscites, because it wasn't very long ago that the Minister of Government Services, who was then the Minister of Municipal Affairs, rose in this House in March, 1983, and responded to a question from the Member for St. Norbert. And the Member for St. Norbert at that time put the following question, on Page 788. He said, "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of clarification.

Could the Mini ster indicate whether or not there is included in this bill, Bill 21, authorization or the power for a munic ipality to hold a referendum on nuclear disarmament or on any other question." That was the question and the Minister, the Hon. A.

Adam, said at that time, "Section 92 does deal with that. lt doesn't specifically state any question that a municip ality wishes to deal with, but that would be one of the items, I presume, if a municipality wanted to deal with that question, they could put that question or any other question that they feel they would like to have an opinion on." Then he concluded by saying, "I might add, Mr.

Speaker, since it was announced, that there would be a change in that particular section." Then he said, "My phone has been swamped with commendations and compliments for having changed that section." - (I nterjection) - Well, I think it probably was. The Min ister probably got a flurry of phone calls commanding him for his interest in the democratic process and his interest in plebiscites and referendums and an expression of popular opinion on matters of interest. Could the Minister indicate where he recieved those compliments and kudos from? Was it his family or his friends or the media?

He did receive some compliments and I have no doubt of that. Unfortu nately there has been a change of heart, and unfortunately

whereas the government - (Interjection) - well, the Minister says there hasn't been a change of heart. Perhaps he is still interested in the opinion of the people of Manitoba as expressed in plebiscites and referendums. I mean, all of us are interested in public opinon and all of us are interested in public opinion at election time, but some of us are interested in the opinion of the people of this province on matters of great importance or matters that could be potentially divisive. I think there are times when plebiscites and referendums should be intr oduced. None more so, Mr.

Speaker, first and foremost, than on a Constitutional amendment and I am saying to the government - (Interjection) - well, the Mi nster didn't get any calls on that. He probably got a few calls from Ste. Rose on the government's proposals to amend the Constitution. - (I nterjection) - No, he didn't receive any feedback. Well, then I would recommend to him that he go home to his constituency and talk to some of the people and get some feedback because most of us, we got calls and one of my colleagues to the right, she received calls on your behalf, and I'm sure answered those calls in your best interest.

You probably couldn't have said it better. Maybe other memb ers received calls, on behalf of government members who may or may not have been answering their telephones. - (I nterjection) - Mr. Speaker, the Member for Turtle Mountain received some on behalf of the Member for lnkster. I certainly received an earful one day from a gentleman from ln kster right outside the building, on the front steps of this building. I don't remember his name, but I remember remarking that in debate in the House, that some gentleman - (Interjection) - no it wasn't Sid Green, no. He may be the object - (Interjecti on) - MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A. DOERN: Mr. Green may be the next MLA and he may receive the calls, but he was not the one who was registering the complaint. Mr. Speaker, I say to the government several things. One is: they themselves indicated a year ago, quite forcefully, that as a matter of policy and a matter of legislation, that they wanted to amend The Municipal Act to allow the municipalities of this province to canvass opinion, to take opinion, to allow people to register an opinion on matters of public imp ortance. The mun icipalities - 23 of them - did that on October 26th last year.

The government also was elected on a slogan of "we listen." That was their slogan. That was their Premier's point - that he was a man who listened to the people. There should be no problem whatsoever with the New Democratic Admin istration supporting plebiscites or referendums on matters of public importance. Mr. Speaker, I have tried in this House to raise this matter. I proposed a motion which was out of order. I intend to reintroduce that next Session. I don't see any point now in trying to reintroduce it because I don't think there's adequate time to do that In this Session.

By the time it gets on the Order Paper, comes up through the system for debate, the Private Members' Hour will be finished, but I certainly intend to reintroduce a similar motion in the House. In terms of the proposal that I suggested, in terms of a proposal that the government should consider, they should consider on Constitutional Amendments a new procedure other than the one we presently have which is that by a simple majority vote, the Province of Manitoba can recommend to the Federal Government a change In its legislation in regard to the Constitution. That's not enough, Mr. Speaker. That isn't good enough.

I would say that the government should only proceed if - and only if - it has the support of the majority of Manitobans. That cannot necessarily be demonstrated in a vote that took place In 1981. We all know the system. I understand the system. We live and die by the parliamentary system, but the government surely cannot argue, surely cannot contend that it has at this time the confidence of the people of this province, either in general or specifically on this particular proposal. In a way, Mr. Speaker, we already had a dry run and we had that dry run in this House in the sense that a plebiscite was held.

There were 175,000 people voted against the government proposals and some 52,000 voted in favour. So you had 225,000 - 230,000 people express their opinion and it was because of that that the government withdrew its legislation. Mr. Sp eaker, I say that we have, In effect, experimented with the very system that I'm proposing. The government had a majority and the government could have rammed its legislation through, but there was a plebiscite and because of the plebiscite the 1690

ThundaJ, 7 June, 1184 government decided not to proceed. lt's that kind of a proposal that I'm saying that the government should formalize. That kind of a procedure that the government should introduce into this House. Take that as a first step. Take that as a first run, but those are the political facts of the matter, Mr. Speaker, that because of the fact that the people of Manitoba gave an expression of their opinion, the government did not proceed.

Now, the government has a different line and that is of course that it is because the opposition blocked them with bell ringing that they had to give up. · Well, Mr. Speaker, I can't give the exact medical analogy, but that's like treating the symptom rather than treating the disease. lt's dealing with only the manifestation of a problem rather than dealing with the problem itself. We know that all that has been accomplished this Session, in regard to amending the Constitution, is that they have taken away a weapon of the opposition, the ability to ring the bells. Mr.

Speaker, I'm saying to the House Leader and to members of the government that that is not solving the problem. I warn the government, as well, that they should not, in their wildest dreams, consider the re introduction of that legislation, because they now would have an easier passage in the House because the opposition couldn't ring the bells. You know, there are some on this side, Mr.

Speaker, and I say to the Member for Fort Garry who, when he spoke in debate in the Cham ber on this general question, said - and perhaps said to me personally, I shouldn't quote him personal ly, but it's perfectly consistent with what he said publicly - he said, in effect, that the government wouldn't dare re-introduce this legislation. But you know, there's another theory, Mr. Speaker, and that is that sometimes when people are desperate, they will do wild things. Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Fort Garry makes a logical point that no government, realizing it would stir up the public and suffer serious political defeat, would introduce a measure. But there is another theory, and that is that if a government realizes it is going down to certain defeat, that it might then do things regardless of the consequences.

That's a very dangerous thing, and that was pointed out to me by a friend of mine, that if the government decides that political defeat and oblivion is their fate, they may then resurrect these proposals and say, regardless of the outcome, meaning, well, we don't care anyway, we're going to slam this in. We'll do it as "a matter of principle" and that would be a dangerous thing, Mr. Speaker.

That is a concern of the public, and it is a concern of mine that we should not have to worry or be concerned about the government bringing In the same proposals or some new version thereof, on the gr.:IUnds that they could get it through because the opposition could only debate the matter for a number of weeks and then closure could be introduced and then the bills may ring, but the vote may be held whether the opposition is here or not. So I think that is a real concern. 1 simply say, Mr.

Speaker, in concluding, that the public stood behind the opposition in their endeavours to block this legislation and i read just one line from a letter written February 13th, in the Winnipeg Sun, saying "Keep bills a-ringing until NDP wakes up." - (I nterjection) - Yes, those were the - it was the sound of music - and this line said, as follows. This is from somebody named Eileen Roberts, and she said, in her letter, "P lease keep the bells ringing until Howard Pawley realizes we won't submit to blackmail." Those were her words. I say, Mr.

Speaker, that it should be difficult, it should be uncommon, and it should be rare that a constitutional amendment comes before this House, and the procedure for the passage of such an amendment should be difficult and should be complex. lt should never be a simple matter for any government of any stripe to bring in a constitutional amendment and ram it through the Legislature. That must be, of necessity, a rare, complex, and difficult procedure. So, Mr.

Speaker, I simply conclude by noting that there was talk of a package, that there was some Ind ication giv en by the House Leader and the . government, that we would not be dealing with bell ringing in isolation, that we would be dealing with a procedure for amending the Constitution, and I say to the government that that is still outstanding and that I, for one, will not rest until this government, or its replacement, brings in a procedure for amending the Constitution that includes widespread pu blic participation and discussion. Thank you, Mr. Speakar. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: May I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have 16 adults and 46 students of Grade 5 from the George Fitton School under the direction of Mr. Thickens. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Employment Services. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Su pply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Business Development and Tourism and the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Co-operative Development. CONCURRE NT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. We are now considering Item 3.(a)

(1) Tourism, Travel Manitoba: Salaries; 3.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures; 3.(a)

(3) Grant Assistance- the Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to start by f.o�.<ing the Minister a few questions about the Whiteshell area and the Mantario concerns. And that having been down into that Big Whiteshell this past winter and having met with a few of the tourist operators and so on, they seem to express a great concern with the Department of Natural Resources new parks concept for that area of leaving out motorized boats for travel and fly-in fish camps, etc., that the persons who are located in that area that derived their livelihood from tourism and have 1691

Thursday, 7 June, 1984 in some cases fairly substantial investments into lodges and tourist camp operations appear to be very concerned that they are not going to have the same livelihoods in the future because of the Parks Branch ruling out motorized boats and fly-in fish facilities, or the ability to fly into these camps. I would like to ask the Minister if there is anything that he or his department can do to ease the tension on some of these camp operators in the Mantario area? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I'm aware of the matter that the member raises. lt is a matter of concern, no question, because it does involve the viability of the various people that have established operations in that area some number of years ago, and some of those of course are not able to continue to operate as of last March, I believe it was. lt is an area, though, that is beyond the jurisdiction of this province, and any role that we have played in it of course is to hear out and meet with the various people, that is, our staff, and we have to monitor the disturbance that has been created by the Whiteshell fly-in.

But we really don't have a mechanism to deal with them directly in that they are the clients of another department, and this probably is a matter that should be more properly debated in the Department of Natural Resources. MR. W. STEEN: I appreciate the Mini ster's answer, and I can tell him that I did sit in on that aspect of the Department of Natural Resources Estimates and it was debated at some length. I also feel from a tourist point of view that he as Min ister and I as critic have an interest on how the operators are going to be affected.

If we, as government, are spending money to lure American fishermen to Manitoba and yet the other arm of government or another arm of government, the Department of Natural Resources, is making it more difficult for tourism is take place, especially when you think that it's existing tourism, it's not an area of wilderness that is undeveloped. lt has been developed for tourism and has been in that state for some years. I recall talking to one of the operators and he says, yes, there are three families that derive their income from our operation.

If we are going to be handicapped by the Department of Natural Resources so that we can't have motorized boats on the lake for fishing purposes, we can't have the fly-in facilities to get our customers and clients into the lake, we're only going to be able to earn enough income from this operation to feed one family and not three as has been the case in the past. So I am trying to put forward a position on behalf of the tourist operators. I recognize and realize that we should have some areas, perhaps, of wil derness trails for the persons that want to go trail hiking and the real true so-called outdoorsman.

But surely , we can live together - the naturalists is what they call themselves - and I'm told there are only a handful of them that are real sticklers for banning motorized equipment from the Mantario area. I would hate to see some of these operators go under because of a few dozen people in Manitoba that want to create naturalist trails and so on.

I hear the Member for ln kster barking in the background about hundreds and thousands, but in talking to members of the Naturalist Society, they say it's a few dozen who are sticklers for having their own way and not being capable - (I nterjection) - and willing to live with the others and so on. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR . W.

STEEN: I would hope that the Minister, when he's dealing with his colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, will stick up for the operators that have been there for the years in the past and would do his best to try and limit these areas of wilderness trails to a size that sort of meets the demand. I would totally disagree with the Member for lnkster on what the demand is because I've been led to believe by people who are members of that association that it's only a few dozen that say that they can't live with the camp operators and get along with them. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know what we can gain by continuing that debate, because it is an area that was debated in the department that had jurisdiction over that question. The Department of Natural Resources is the landlord of the land base that is publicly owned in Manitoba and has established a certain policy in that particular p art of the province, and all agencies, public and private, of course, then have to conform to that policy. So, I don't know that there is anything productive to be gained from having that discussion a second time around in this committee.

I presume the member has made the point to the other department. We have tried to assist, that is our department has tried to assist, some of those people that have been dislocated by way of offering new location possibilities to them and things of that nature, but we are certainly not in a position of determining policy for the Crown asset that is there. That is the responsibility of another department and a decision has been made. MR. W. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm glad to hear that the Minister says he has met with the concerned operators, and that his department will do everything within their power to assist them on relocation. I thank him and his department for taking those steps and would encourage the Minister and his department to continue to monitor the situation on behalf of the tourist ind ustry and from that point of view.

I fully realize that the Department of Natural Resources has the authority. lt's one thing for them to have the authority, but on the other hand, hopefully, the Department of Natural Resou rces and the Department of Tourism are both working in the same dir ection and that is to make Manitoba a better Manitoba. Particularly when one considers that the Minister responsible for Tourism's constituency likely entails a portion of the Whiteshell, he would have an interest in that part of the province. Unless, Mr.

Chairman, one of my colleagues has anything further to add, I was asked by the Member for Emerson if I would bring this to the Minister's attention from a tourist point of view, which I have done, so I would say that's all as far as that aspect, unless one of my colleagues has anything to add. 1692

ThundaJ, 7 June, 1114 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the Minister's correct observation that the jurisdiction of the land in question that my colleague has been talking about in the Whiteshell is In the Department of Natural Resources, but 1 think the issue that we're trying to raise is that surely the department that the Min ister is responsible for, Tourism in this instance, has a very Important role to play in developing the accessibility and the land use In particularly this area in question.

Without getting into debate with the Member for lnkster about this subject matter and being familiar with the area, having had the privilege of enjoying many years of camping in that area and not having any continuing interest in that I add, before the Member for lnkster charges me with conflict of interest, but knowing that the geography of the area in question, served as it is by our major Trans-Canada Highw ay, served as it is by our major costs that we have publicly and privately encouraged in that area, whether it's townsites like Falcon, the infrastructure in roads that have made l;1kes like Crowduck, Mantario, Moosehead, Whiteshell, Sheep Lake, all the little lakes that have been now placed in a very restricted area in terms of tourist access is something that I think ought to worry this Min ister.

I have no objection if we want to do that hiking and that setting aside specific areas of land that satisfy the naturalists. I think we're particularly blessed in Manitoba that we're not under the pressure that other jurisdictions in other countries in the world are; we do have, thank God, a reasonable amount of wild erness to preserve. 1 would have, for instance, and indeed had faced this same question as the last Minister of Natural Resources in the previous admi nistration, but quite frankly would have not acceded to this request.

My direction to the department would have been to have looked harder at the newer Nopiming Park for setting up the kind of wilderness areas that we have finally settled onto in this area. But 1 raise a bigger question. My understanding is that this is only one part of it. We're talking about the same thing at Spruce Woods. We're talking about the same thing at Grassy River Park in the North and in the Flin Flon area, and there are different concerns.

In the northern park, economic concerns become the greater concerns. lt happens to fall in one of the better mineral bearing zones of the province, so you have all kinds of concerns from the prospecting people, from the mineral people, from the mining people, which I'm sure the department is aware of. But in places like the Spruce Woods and Whiteshell, these are parks that are meant to be seen and meant to bA enjoyed by as large a num ber of Manitobans first ly, Canadians secondly, and then, of course, whoever else wants to come and pay us a visit during the tourist season.

So I ask the Min ister just to kind of keep a steady hand on the wheel, and not let some of his colleagues get carried away with this hiking business here. The map that they've got, obviously it wasn't produced by the Tourist Branch advising tourists to dispose of human wastes in shallow trenches 10 cm deep, at least 15 metres from water; I would have thought the Tourist Branch would have handled that matter a bit more delicately. All in all, I would say to the Minister that he should take a firmer grip on his department and recognize that he has a responsibility in tourism, not the Member for lnk ster. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for lnkster. MH. D. SCOTT: Thank you. I'll try to get a firm grasp on the proper issues here. lt's tough to follow

an act like the Member for Lakeside gives us all the time, but in dealing first with land policy, which the Minister is quite correct, is not the responsibility of his department. When the Member for Lakeside was the Minister of Natural Resources, it was a time when we actually started the movement towards, or not started , but continued the movement towards the master plan in . process and that is now accepted not only in Manitoba, but in other jurisdictions across this country and more and more throughout the world. Tourism, I must say, has many aspects to it.

The aspect of tourism that the opposition only sees unfortuna tely in dealing with our wil derness areas is the fishing Indu stry or the hunting Industry. lt goes far beyond that. There are many people who are looking to go especially from large urban centres such as Winnipeg, and people are brought in or are coming in from other provinces and south of us from the U.S., who are looking for a good wilderness experience, looking for an area where they can go out and partake in their activity. These are tourists that are very valuable to us as well.

To write these persons off, I think, is totally erroneous on behalf of any government, when it's talking about tourist policy. There are different levels of tourism, different types of tourism. and you don't exclude one type to the benefit of all the others.

What we're doing, in what the example of the Mantario Wilderness Centre within the Whiteshell Park is, is saying to tourists throughout the country and throughout the world that here we are preserving an area for a unique type of tourism; that we can have people come here and enjoy what they are looking for in a natural environment and not be disturbed by the other forms of tourism which are taking place throughout the rest of the province. We're not talking a huge tract of land here. As a matter of fact, it's only 12 percent of the Whiteshell Park and a very very small little jewel, I might say, of the shield.

If I could just, for the members opposite, it's my un derstanding that just thr ough the Mantario Wilderness Education Centre there is in excess of 1,000 people a year go through that centre. That's nothing to sneeze at. During the summer months, when they have the Mantario Wilderness Skills Program working out of that centre, they bring in up to I believe 18 persons as a limit of its capacity per week into that centre from some time in late June right through until t" 3 end of August. That to me is a fairly significant amount of tour:sm in that area, if you want to speak of numbers.

That does not count the number of persons who go in, do not make use of that centre, but just go in either hiking or most of them, probably three quarters at least, in the summer months are going in via canoe. You're talking, in total, there would be several thousand people using the area for varying lengths of time. 1693

Thursday, 7 June, 1984 In the U.S. I had an example back in - I think it was - '77 or in '78 of going to an island in Lake Superior called Isle Royale, more properly called "Isle Royale." - (Interjection) - I'm not sure what the comment from Sturgeon Creek was. but it probably wasn't terribly compli mentary. lt isn't usually. That centre - (Interjection) - There was very deep, very clear, very cold water and I'm sure even the Member for Sturgeon Creek probably would have turned purple had he gone swimming in the water it was so cold. He turns purple in the House without even getting in cold water, just hot water.

That island brings, I understand at that point, in excess of 17,000 hikers a year onto the island. lt is a tremendous resource to the people of the United States of having that area where it is attracting that number of persons who come to enjoy a wilderness setting on a non-interrup tive basis. I would hope that we would follow the lead that the U.S. Government set way back in the 1930s when they opened that island up and started it out as basically a hiking park, a hiking and a sailing destination as well.

I would hope that we would follow that along in Manitoba of trying to target that particular area, yes, provide maps. Provide maps, as this map is, it's a map that does not deteriorate. When it gets wet you can put it up to dry off, it's not going to shrivel up. You can't burn it though. - (Interjection) - I wouldn't want to, you can try, Harry. Start right now and tell us how many calories it's got in it. But in conclusion, Mr.

Chairman, I want to speak on behalf of a great ma ny Ma nitobans who see a tremendous worth in offering various and different types of tourism potential and opportunities in Manitoba, both for the citizens of Winnip eg, the other citizens of Manitoba and for visitors to our great province. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I don't anticipate that we're going to resolve the issue here today but I think it's incumb ent on members who represent areas which play an essential part on the tourism as well as the recreation make-up of this province to speak out somewhat on this particular line. Tourism , Mr. Chairman , is something which the eastern part of the Province of Manitoba and especially the eastern part of my riding relies very heavily on it.

The difficulty we have with the development of a wilderness area - and I'm sorry the member is leaving right now - is that you've got a situation developing where you have had camp operators, people who have provided fly-in fishing services and that type of thing, that have developed a livelihood over the last number of years. Now, not to down play the wishes of the people who are the naturalists, who want some places left in a natural state, I want to say to the Min ister that I feel that part that has been designated is the wrong area.

If there is a wilderness area to be created, why don't you really take a wilderness area? Why don't you go up to the Manigotagan area, the east side of Lake Winnipeg, or even up towards the Hecla Island area? There's lots of wilderness area up there where there are no existing camp operators, where there are no existing people that will be adversely affected by this. The Member for ln kster forgets one thing, that while he talks about tourism, the average person that wants to do what he wants to do is this type - and I hate to stereotype people - but we're all seen them.

They drive up with their Volvo or their Reneault with a canoe on the top, they unload their Granola bars and their distilled water and wheat germ into a little packsack, then they get into their canoe and paddle off. They don't spend a single dollar within that area. Now that's fine, that's what they want to do, but to the guy who's operating the hotel or the guy who's trying to make a living renting motorboats, Mr. Chairman, it doesn't work.

That is not tourism, per se, because what's happening there, it is a form of recreation and what we have seen happen in eastern Manitoba is that we have had a substantial area taken out of multi-purp ose use, designa ted for a very very small segment of the population, and I think it is the wrong area to do that. If the government intends to provide this type of facility, I would encourage them to do so.

But to take an area like the Whiteshell which is prime, what I consider tourist area, and do that to that area, I suggest to the Min ister, and he knows from the east end of his riding what effect that has on the camp operators and on the people who are flying in fishermen and the like. What we've done here is we have really taken away the livelihood of some people out in eastern Manitoba and we're going to see - and I predict in that whole area - a decline in population because of that, and instead of having these operators being able to expand their facilit ies, many of them will have to reduce.

Because the people that will be using the Mantario facility are not the type of people that will use the facilities of the operators, of the tour people, and people who are trying to make a livelihood out there; they don't use those kind of services. So we've set aside a piece of the park and I would again urge the Minister to use his good persuasive powers within his caucus. I know that he's got enough ill battle on so many issues that he's got to fight with his colleagues on, but surely this Member for lnkster, who is a wilderness hawk, his influence in . MR. H. ENNS: His wings could be clipped. MR. R.

BANMAN: Yes, his wings could be clipped somewhat and maybe his flight path could be directed maybe on a northern path more than eastwards towards the Whiteshell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I don't think we should go back into the history of the master plan for the Whiteshell. That particular project, I believe, was launched by another administration for other reasons, perhaps.

I think one of the problems we have, however, is that we kind of get cornered into accepting from time to time someone else's mode, if you like, as being the more desirable one over others and there's always a conflict between various interest groups with respect to what should happen with resort areas. One of the observations that I think it's fair to make is that we perhaps are too preoccupied with one corner of the province in making those decisions. I think we've 1694

Thursday, 7 June, 1884 probably been at fault for many years in that respect. Th ree-quarters of Manitoba is a wilderness area; the one-quarter is populated. I think that's a fair calculation. There is probably a lot of logic in arguing the point that where we have already populated areas, we should not now depopulate or change the use of those areas, because of a particular thrust of a particular group. That's really what the members opposite are arguing about at the moment. I believe there Is room for a very thorough review of Manitoba resource potential for all needs that should be met.

Given the fact that we have such a large geography with so much unsettled area, there shouldn't really be much of a conflict and perhaps some greater effort has to be applied in that respect to bring about a policy that is satisfactory to all particular interest groups in a way that minimizes the disturbance to the public as a whole. That should be the objective. To the extent that we achieve that of course is hard to determine, but that is really where I would want to pursue it as a department.

But I have to tell you that with respect to decisions already having been made, those decisions were made essentially a year ago or more, so we're not In a position of having to go back on those decisions and start the process all over again. The Wh iteshell Study has been under way for some number of years. I'm not certain just whether I would totally concur or otherwise in the final package that was adopted had I played a role in it at the time.

You know, that's a speculative point, but it is there, decisions have been made, and we have to live with those for the moment. - (Interjection) - Well, to the extent that they have affected people that have had to relocate and the relocations have taken place, it's pretty hard to change those things, they've already occurred. I do regret that for some people there is economic loss; that Is a concern indeed.

I have to say though that I have no area of maneuverability In that regard, since that is not my area of responsibility, and therefore cannot offer any particular hope other than to assist those groups relocation or whatever else that they might wish to do In the recreation, tourism area. MA. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, dealing with another issue. I note, for instance, that there are no substantial increases in Salaries or Other Expenditures other than I assume normal Inflationary costs. Grant Assistance in fact is down somewhat on Items 1, 2 and 3.

I raise this only because I'm also aware that in dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources there were no additional provisions for any contingency plans In terms of extra salaries or extra expenditures in their Parks Branch Department. I raise this because we are of course aware that we will have two distinct bumps in our tou rist industry this year; namely, the visit of Her Majesty, and of cou rse the visit of His Holiness the Pope.

I would ask the Minister, is the Department of Tourism preparing any special efforts to help direct the expected, very substantial, numbers of visitors to Manitoba?

I know of the arrangements of course at Birds Hill Park for the Pope's visit, but it would seem to me that the Tourist Department could expect, even though the visits are brief and short, but there will be a natural willingness on the part of many visitors to spend some additional time in the province, to perhaps visit some of our facilities. lt would seem to me only prudent to somewhere plan for the best possible reception of these visitors, so that when they come to this province that they have the feeling and experience that they are being efficiently and well looked after. lt may be an opportunity where we have many visitors coming to this province tor the first time to Impress them with the facilities that we have, with the friendliness of our people - which 1 have no doubt will be exhibited - but more importantly on these occasions, particularly when under stress because of numb ers, tha t Information booths, information material, and the likes of that be there and In place to assist this very dramatic number of people that we expect.

I appreciate it's a short visit, but nonetheless I would expect the Tourist Department to be involved in it.

Now, the Minister may say to me that arrangements are being made through the Jobs Fund, or through the Parks Branch, and that may well be, but it seems to me that from a tourist point of view it's a golden opportunity, particularly if the num bers are believed that upwards to 200,000, or 300 ,000, or 400,000 people are expected to come to us on the occasion of the Pope's visit that the Tourist Branch be particularly prepared to put it's best face forwflrd and to impress many visitors, perhaps many of them for the first time who normally would not come to us, to return to us in other years.

So I ask the Minister, the Estim ates don't indicate any facility to provide that additional service. I look forward to his replies. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Lakeside perhaps is not aware that there is a special provision that has been approved for the two occasions which operations are housed in the offices of the Executive Council, and therefore we are not playing a direct role with respect to either of those two events.

What we are doin g Is attemptin g to facilitate information availability for travellers entering the province from other jurisdictions per se, out of province, out of country. The reception centres are going to have all of the information. We have a toll free line Information package for whoever wishes to use that mechanism, and we are extending the length of the operation of the reception centres in light of the Pope's visit late in the fall. So those changes have been made, but essentially the bulk of activities will be directed through and from the offices as established by the Executive Council. MA. H.

ENNS: Fine, I appreciate that. I only have one comment you know. it seems to me though Mr. Minister that the, you know, the experts in handling the tourist trade reside in your department. I 1on't know what the expertise emanates out of the :xecutive Council. They may have trouble running Executive Council properly, never mind directing, you know, 10 0,000 tourists. I would hope that the resources, you know, will be drawn from your department.

Monies may be housed in Executive Council, but that the Tourist Branch will be playing a lead role in terms of the planning, the reception, and the necessary work that would be associated with these people. 1695

Thur8day, 7 June, 1984 HON. S. USKIW: Well, I think the other point we should touch on, Mr. Chairman, is that the tourism literature that is out is going to provide information with respect to both of those occasions, and also the inserts that are used by the newspaper media. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr . Chairman, the Tourism Estimates are on one line. These fellows in the Tourism Department have been doing that for years and getting away it.

Mind you I didn't mind when I was Min ister, but do you still have it structured in the Tourism Department in development, marketing and tourism information? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, under the marketing, which the Member for Lakeside was referring to, can the Minister tell us what the budget is for advertising this year as far as the marketing is concerned? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, the numb ers are essentially identical to last year.

We spent $997,000 last year and this year it'll be 976 with one change and that is that we have the co-op advertising package, which is $83,000, on top of that. So that's the joint advertising package with the private sector. So in total we're over where we were a year ago. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is there still within the Marketing Department awareness programs for the people involved in the tourist ind ustry in Manitoba? HON. S. USKJ W: That comes under Destination Manitoba, Mr. Chairman. MR. F.

JOH NSTO N: Well, then referring to the marketing and the subject the Member for Lakeside was on, the Member for Lakeside said that they hoped that all these thousands of tourists that we'll be having come to Manitoba will come back pardon me.

Is there anything being done to encourage these tourists, these thousands of tourists that will be in Manitoba, to remain in Manitoba for two or three days to travel Manitoba, especially into the rural areas to assist the people in the tourism areas of the Province of Manitoba, which I believe there are seven, and what is being done working with the Tourist Industry Association and the department to try and have these people travel the province and spend more dollars? Every day a person spends in Manitoba is a real benefit to the tourist industry and there's going to be thousands of people in Manitoba. HON. S.

USKIW: Well, the new effort, Mr. Chairman, apart from the ongoing advertising that we do provide is the Telidon service that we're introducing this year, wherein we will have seven locations serviced in that way; all the reception centres, Eatons, and the Museum of Man and Nature, where people will be able to use that system for the first time to give them a complete picture of what is available in the Province of Manitoba both in events and facilities. We also have information kits that will be handed out and things of that nature. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Is the department, when the Minister mentions in his opening remarks and refers to the information centres, are they opening up any new information centres? In other words, we had a trailer down near Morden and Winkler; we had just a little stand on the east side of Winnipeg. Is there any plans to have larger tourist information centres so people can rest a bit, maybe have a cup of coffee and have chats with our tourist Information people regarding the province. HON. S. USKIW: The only new facility that is being constructed is at Deacons Corner.

Apart from that, all of the other facilities have been there for some time. There's a new trailer at Russell, Manitoba, but it's not a new facility. lt's not a new location, it's a new trailer. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Did we buy the trailer from a Manitoba trailer manufacturer this time? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman. A good point. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The other one was bought previously. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(aX 1) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, under the marketing program, I mentioned the Tourist Awareness Program. There is a program, but the funding comes under Destination Manitoba.

Is that correct? HON. S. USKIW: That's what we said. Yes, that's right, Mr. Chairman. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The development

section of the department, what are the specific plans for development of Tourism? We talked about marketing, we talked about kits, we talked about information services, but the people within the development department, that takes in the planning as well. Are there any specific plans? I know you mentioned your co-op advertising and your new Information phone, direct line, and the other Telidon information. Are there any other tourism plans for assistance to develop more tourism in Manitoba? HON. S. USKIW: Essential ly, what we are doing is continuing on with the various Destination Manitoba programs.

In the marketing end, or the development end that the member is interested in, we are involved in design, support, delivery of tourism awareness programs throughout the province, customer service program upgrading. We have 24 locations for a train and trainers' program for Destination area operators, skilled training packages. That whole package runs about $1,15 0,000.00. That's total for Program 5. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Department of Creative Services, that worked within the Department of Economic Development and Tourism, I was informed that it has now been moved to the Queen's Printer. Is that correct? HON. S.

USKIW: Yes, that's correct. Mr. Chairman, I believe there are two people who were moved over to 1696

Thurtday, 7 June, 1184 the Queen's Printer. Those are of the technical side and the remaining group is within the department. Five are still within the department. MR. F. JOHNSTON: What is the grant to the Tourist Industry Association this year in the Winnipeg group, and, of course, there are the seven associations throughout the province. They used to be on a specific formula for grants. Is that formula still the same? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, the formula is the same and the numbers are the same as last year - $189,400.00. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, that's all I have, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple of questions dealing with the information that the department does provide. I'd like to know, is that information constantly upg raded, or once it's fed into the Telidon system, does it stay there, or how often do they upgrade the information? HON. S. USKIW: Traditionally, it's an annual change, Mr.

Chairman, but with Telidon services we are able to update it on a cu rrent basis; it's an ongoing process so that as new information is made available, it's fed into the Telidon system, so we can be very current on that system. MR. H. GRAHAM: I'd like to ask the Minister then if he would mind correcting some misinformation that was put out. The Strathclair Fair this year: Strathclair is not on Highway No. 6, it's on the Yellowhead. Anybody that tried to get to Strathclalr by going up No. 6 would end up in a little bit of difficulty. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, if he doesn't mind, I have a series of questions from his opening statement the other day, and if I could I wouldn't mind dealing with Tourism as a total package when we pass both (

a) and (

b) as one. I would like to start by talking about the tour bus market. He mentioned the other day that it's showing a growth of some 13 percent. This, to the Minister, has always been an area that I have felt that Manitobans have not got their share in the past, and I can cite an example of being in Duluth, Minnesota, last summer and seeing four buses on a tour that came out of Toronto. They came around the north shore of Lake Superior and then they returned back through the states from Duluth, Sup erior, and back home. There are these natural routes that these tour bus operators like.

They don't want to be away from home for more than four to six days and sometimes it's difficult to get from Toronto to Winnipeg and then back and do it in six days and see what they want to see in the Province of Ontario. I would like if the Minister could give me some indication: are we being successful in talking to tour bus operators, both in Ontario and in the northern states, about Including Manitoba and Winnipeg onto more of their routes, and Is this 13 percent increase a one-year shot because of some happening?

This year, certainly, I guess with the Queen's visit and the Pope's visit, there should be extra tours coming just at that specific time. So, I would like the Minister to comment on that aspect of tourism marketing. HON. S. USKIW: Yes, I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that we have two people who work on that particular area specifically, working with bus companies and various travel groups throughout the continent. We are going to have some special effort provided for the Papal and Queen's visit in that respect.

So, it's an ongoing process and it's our feeling that the growth factor generates a fair amount as a result of our promotional activities. MR. W. STEEN: I would imagine at this time next year we will be asking the Minister how the Telldon system worked in its first year and he and his department will be able to provide us with some statistics as to how successful it was. I notice that other provinces are embarking on such a :-rogram and I think it's well worthwhile entering into such a proposition.

Another area that I'd like to ask the Minister some questions about is the rural destination areas attractions program that he cited. He talked about the Ukrainian Folk Arts Centre and Museum In Dauphin and made reference to the Harbour Front Improvements Park - to the park area in Gimli and so on, some new facilities in Flin Flon, Snow Lake and The Pas and the north and that. Can the Minister go Into a little bit more detail as to what is the department actually doing in the way of facilities to some of these particular areas? What is actually being built in Dauphin?

Is it a museum and is the government cost-sharing it with the Ukrainian people In the Ukrainian community and the Town of Dauphin, or is the government paying for the whole thing itself? I have seen the Harbour Front Park at Gimli on a number of occasions. I think it's an excellent improvement. Is it the province that's paying the whole share? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the Ukrainian Folk Arts Centre and Museum at Dauphin, the initial phase is a $3.2 million venture of which the province has approved a half-a-million dollars to date under this particular program under Destination areas. MR. W.

STEEN: My question to the Minister is, how many years do they expect to phase this project in over? HON. S. USKIW: My understanding is that it's ultimately a $20 mill ion venture. lt's proba bly a decade in development that's going to take place. MR. W. STEEN: The Gimli Harbour Front Park is that one that's being jointly shared cost-wise with the people in the community or Is it total provincial funds? HON. S. USKIW: The total in the Gimli area Is $426,000 of which we're putting up $247,000.00, and that's completed. 1697

Thur-.day, 7 June, 1984 MR. W. STEEN: Another area that I'd like to move on to is an area where the Minister made reference to the Tourism Awareness Program and specific manpower training programs. Then he mentioned the Manitoba Hotel Association and the Manitoba Restaurant and Food Services Association and so on. Does the department get involved at all with the training at Red River Community College of the two year certificate course in hotel management? HON. S. USKIW: We play an advisory role there. We have one person that sits on an advisory committee. MR. W.

STEEN: An area that I would like to see the Minis ter and the department perhaps expand its interest, and I don't think it would cost us very much money, is working with those two associations - the Hotel Association and the Restaurant Association. I find many Winnipegers and Manitobans say that when they cross the Canadian/U.S.

Border and they're down into the Grand Forks, Fargo and Min neapolis area that they seem to be of the impression that the persons that are supplying the services, whether they be at the hotels or in restaurants and so on, always seem to be somewhat more courteous than our own people that are providing the services up here.

I think that if government along with the associations, because it's their members that are carrying out the services to the public, if we could point this out to them more often and get this tourism awareness and get this so called "Friendly Manitoba" feeling being pushed forward and being promoted far more than it has been in the past. Does the Minister have a comment along those lines?

I know when he spoke at Portage at the tourism meeting he recalled returning from United States himself and unfortunately he had that great flight that seemed to stop every 250 miles to pick up some more milk cans, but I'm sure that the Minister has travelled in the States as often as any member of committee and I'm sure that he would say that from his experiences that the people waiting on you in restaurants just seem to be a little friendlier and a litter more aggressive down there.

I would like to see us Canadians become a wee bit more aggressive and friendlier when we're providing the services to our people that are visiting here. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the point that the member is making. I think one observation that still has current value is that they do give more coffee away down there than we do here. One Is able to still get two or thr ee cups for the price of one in many places in the U.S., but apart from that I think we have upgraded our system a fair amount in the last several years.

We did have a departmentally run awareness program some time ago, but it has been decided, and In conjunction with the wishes of the industry, that the industry develop its own awareness program to which we lend support. We have put together, I believe, a manual. The do's and don'ts sort of idea for the ind ustry and we are working very closely with the private sector in trying to improve the quality of service that we have to offer here in the province. We hold workshops, seminars and it might be of some interest to members to know that our chefs are -the Canadian Cup was won by the Manitoba chefs.

That should be of some interest. They're going over to Frankfurt to compete in that part of the world, so we are making some end roads and scoring on a least some occasions with respect to our abilities to cater to this kind of an industry. MR. W.

STEEN: Another thing I'd like to point or make comment about, although the Minister and his staff are very much aware of it, is a program that was started a few years ago when our Canadian dollar was so much different than the American dollar that our good restaurants have a card near the cash register where it at least indicates to our American visitors what the exchange rate would be.

Naturally with our dollar being as low as it is tod ay, this is something that should be continued on, and through the Restaurant Association and the Hotel Association really embark on doing everything within our power to convice these people that are members of these two associations to have these cards available in a spot within their facility that is easily seen and to encourage our American tourists to come to Manitoba. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the industry has taken on, very aggressively, that question and promoted the idea of providing a 30 percent bonus on U.S. dollars.

Portage la Prairie, I believe, took the lead in that respect. We also are in the process of setting up an exchange system at Emerson. We have tendered for that service and we should be making an announcement fairly soon. MR.

W STEEN: In another area that I'd like to ask the Minister a question, he talked about the new federal Industrial and Regional Development Programs and then goes on to mention that a total of $3.4 million in loan assistance has helped $12.2 million worth of capital development of the private sector in accommodations and attractions, can the Minister give some examples of where some of this money has been spent?

What types of facilities or even name the fa cilities that have been receiving monies from this, so as a Manitoban and as I travel throughout the province I can appreciate better facilities as a result of government assistance? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, did the member want a regional breakdown or specific projects or just examples? MR.

W STEEN: What I would like the Min ister to do, if he wouldn't mind, is that perhaps at a later date he could provide me with the Information, the list and so on, so that I as his opposite can peruse it between now and next year and appreciate how government is assisting the private sector. The reason why I specifically wanted to ask for it is myself and a few of my colleagues will be participating in the Grey Owl Golf Tournament this weekend.

A neighbour of mine who operates a restaurant at Clear Lake or Wasagaming was telling me that a Winnipeg lawyer bought the Wasagamlng Lodge and has received su bstantial government assistance in upgrading this lodge and that I'm going to have my eyes opened up when I see it this weekend, that it's been substantially modernized and upgraded. So I was just wondering if this was monies from the 1698

Thur8day. 7 June, 1984 provi ncial area that's gone in to make such an improvement. HON. S. USKIW: Yes, it's money from Destination Manitoba, Mr. Chairman. We've had 78 applications that were approved in'83-84 for rural areas, about $2 million in total. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MA. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for his support for a Destination Manitoba grant that was recently finalized in my area, that being for the Mystery Lake Ski Complex of the Thompson Ski Club. lt was a $178,0 00 grant.

I know in previous sittings of this same committee I lobbied the previous Minister and she certainly gave it her full support. We're very pleased with that in Thompson. I did want to indicate for the record that not only is it going to assist in the expansion of the ski facilities in Thompson quite greatly; also, as the Minister I'm sure is aware, there is a proposed hotel expansion under way and that will add about 30 new suites.

One of the factors in that certainly is the expansion of tourism potential through such things as the Mystery Mountain Ski Complex. - (Interjection) - As the member ind icates it's the Mystery Lake Ho tel. In fact, I understand Destination Manitoba is also involved in that expansion as well which I'm very encouraged to see. I can indicate from conversations with other constituents that it certainly appears that it won't be the only hotel expansion that we might be seeing in the next period of time.

I think there's a real sense in the North that we have a great deal of tourism potential which is untapped and grants and programs such as this will help us tap that potential. In fact, what I would like to say also perhaps at this time is that I would hope that we would continuously review the application and the criteria for the Destination Manitoba Program, because as everybody realizes the destination areas do not include a good part of the North, and I think that there are some significant areas of tourism potential in my own area, around Thompson, which should be included as destination areas.

As a matter of fact, if one looks at it, I think one will find that it's not just Thompson, it's a whole series of areas in the North, such as Churchill, for example, and other communities which do have tourism potential. So I guess I'd like to thank the Minister for his support for tourism thus far in my area, but also signal perhaps that I'll be lobbying further hopefully for some changed criteria to the Destination Manitoba so that even more projects in my constituency and other constituencies will be eligible. MA. CHAIRMAN: 3.( a)(1) - the Member for River Heights. MA. W.

STEEN: The Member for Thompson just brought back to memory a question that the Member for Pembina asked me to ask, and that is the ski resorts at La Riviere. Were there grant applications from the ski resorts there and were they successful in receiving any grants? HON. S. USKIW: Yes. Apparently they have, Mr. Chairman, yes. MR. W. STEEN: What, received grants and received monies? HON. S. USKIW: They did. The member must be referring to Holiday Mountain. MR. W. STEEN: Right. HON. S. USKIW: Yes. MR. W. STEEN: All right.

With the undertaking that the Minister will supply me with a list of successful grant applications, monies and so on, as far as I'm concerned, Mr. Chairman, we can pass the Tourism

section without the Hor seracing Commission. We can pass 3.(

a) and 3.(b), please. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)( 1)- pass; 3.(a)(2)- pass; 3.(a)(3). MR. D. SCOTT: On anyone of them, it doesn't matter, I just want to pick up If I could on . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Let me call 3.(b)( 1), then you can do it on the next one. 3.( b)( 1), Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement: Salaries; 3.(b)(2), Other Expenditures - the Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Okay, fine, I just want to pick up once again on the service that we have in our restaurants and the eating industry.

I'm wondering if there's been any consideration to work alongside T.M., the Tourism Association of Manitoba, towards establishing some sort of a rating system so that the operators themselves would be kind of like self-governing and setting up a restaurant indicator measuring system, one star to five star or however, like they have for instance in some other countries. France, in particular, has that and you have an idea what kind of restaurant you're going to from the sign outside, also with guidebooks and one thing and another that are available.

There's one thing that they would certainly be considering but it's something I find not just here in Manitoba, I must say it's other jurisdictions. I'd like Man itoba to get a bit of a jump I guess on this. I judge the condition, or a lot of restaurants I quite frankly judge partially not just on the food and the service but the maintenance of the building and in particular in the washrooms.

So many of them are very poorly maintained and you wonder when you go in after the meal to clean up whether or not you're going to come cleaner or dirtier at the end of it. it's partially I understand the responsibility of the Department of Health as well for the sanitary aspects, but certainly the tourism Industry itself I would think would want to have a fairly significant role and play a larger role in promotion and self-policing of the quality of maintenance standards that they have in there, in their washroom facilities and restaurants, in general.

Could the Minister inform whether there have been any talks with the Tourism Industry Association of Manitoba on providing or moving towards a grading system? I say that they should do it, because I don't 1699

Thuraday, 7 June, 1984 think it's the government's responsibility to get in and do this necessarily. lt's something that they will benefit from and that they should be working with in co operation through themselves to promote tourism in Manitoba. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, the member perhaps isn't aware, but we do have a classification system for accommodations. MR. D. SCOTT: Yes. HON. S. USKIW: What we don't have is the restaurant side and there are discussions under way with the industry with respect to that.

I think the initiative really should come from the industry and we should be part of that, but we shouldn't be imposing it on the industry. We've also assisted in developing a code for them, so there are discussions in that regard. MR. D. SCOTT: So the province is actively engaged in encouraging industry to move towards setting these standards? HON. S. USKIW: Yes. MR. D. SCOTT: That's very good, Mr. Minister, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(bX1 )-p ass; 3.(bX2)-p ass. 3.(cX1), Manitoba Horse Racing Commission: Grant Assistance - the Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, on the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission, I would say that I'm led to believe from the outset that the Minister hasn't had the Horse Racing Commission under his jurisdiction for too long a period of time, and that many of the difficulties that the Horse Racing Commission are currently facing were difficulties that were there well before he became the Minister. I see that his department is giving a news release out right now. Does the Minister wish to read the news release into the record? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, it probably isn't necessary to read the press release.

But, what it in essence suggests is that we, indeed, have made some changes with respect to the membership of th e commission. We are appointing two new people to replace the chair and the vice-chair. lt's our hope that by doing this, along with other things, that we are going to be able to restore, shall we say, confidence in the industry in Manitoba. The commission that was there up until this point in time did have to wrestle with a lot of problems and difficulties because of the previous ownership situation and the viability problems that were evident at the time.

We hope that's behind us, well we know it's behind us now. But, resulting from that particular interlude, very stringent regulations were introduced in order to respond to a tough situation of the time. We think perhaps now is the time to take another look at that, given the fact that we do have a very responsible and credible operator in place, one that has had a great deal of experience in the industry. it's our hope that by helping to put on a new face on the industry in Manitoba that it will help offset the negative effects of competing areas that are about to take place.

We believe we have to put together a package that is promoted by government and Industry together, a lot of good will is important in that regard and we want to set the stage for a very healthy Industry in Manitoba for the benefits, naturally, that accrue from the operation in the tourism field. We've had many discussions with various components in the industry, the owner of the track, the horsemen, and we believe that what we are doing now is going to achieve the ends that I have just described.

Minneapolis is going to be our competition in about a year's time and it's time that we, in fact, set aside all of the so-called differences of opinion and argument and try to work out a solution that is acceptable to the province and to the industry so that we are out there beating the drum for a healthy horse-racing industry in Manitoba. MR. W. STEEN: My first question to the Minister would be, right from· his announcement, the new Chairman, Mr.

Chisvin, who is a senior partner in MacGillivray and Company and he's also the Chairman of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commis sio n, the Mi nister makes reference to the fact that there have been difficulties at the track, not only from the ownership of the track, but now competition from Minneapolis coming in. Does he not feel that perhaps we are stretching Mr. Chisvin a little thin by asking him to take on the difficult task of being chairman during a problem period as well as handling the liquor Control Comm ission chairmanship, as well as, perhaps, trying to carry on a practice of chartered accountancy? HON.

S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, that's a fair question. We have discussed that with Mr. Chisvin and we're advised that he has ample time available to himself. His role in the business firm is quite light by comparison to what it was over the years, and he is in a position to take on additional responsibilities. I might add, however, that it Is intended that this be a short-term appointment. 1t is intended that his appointment will take us through the sort of reorganizational period with respect to the operations of the board and with respect to the review of the regulations.

Once we're satisfied that the Industry is functioning in a reasonable manner, we probably will then appoint someone else and relieve Mr. Chisvin. lt is not intended to be a permanent appointment. lt's a trouble-shooting appointment, in other words, is what we're suggesting for the moment. MR. W. STEEN: Might I ask the Minister what was the thinking or the reasoning behind changing the reporting date of the annual and Auditor's report with regard to the racing commission? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm not even certain as to that.

That decision was made a year ago, and indeed, was debated in the Estimates of one year ago. lt was concurred in by the Provincial Auditor. The 1700

Thureday, 7 June, 1884 Provincial Auditor recommended, apparently, that a 15- month report would be reasonable and they proceeded on that basis long before there was a change in Min isterial responsibility. it's history as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not sure of what importance it is to him to raise it at this stage. MR. W.

STEEN: To the Minis ter, I can certainly see that the Provincial Auditor cannot audit all branches of government at the same time, and most practising chartered accountants try to have their clients stagger their year ends so they can keep a fair and equitable workload for their accountancy practice. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why it was recommended that the year-end date be changed. I'm told that if a person wants to change their year-end date and the period is going to be greater than 12 months, that normally it's customary to put out an interim report to cover the period that is greater than 12 months.

But perhaps the Provincial Auditor feels that an interim report isn't necessary. I just woul .::l like to point out to the Mini ster that the 1979 report was tabled on February 28th of 1980, two months afterward; the following year it was January 9th, just nine days into the year; and the following year it was only 15 days into the year. Here we are going well over 15 months. Another area with the racing commission that concer!Js me is that their expenditures have grown and grown at a very rapid rate.

If we go back about five years, we'll see that they were spending something over $1 00,000 a year to operate; and now, as of the last report, they're over 400-and-some-odd thousand, and we don't know what they will be this year because the report hasn't been published. There's a sum of money in the Estimates, and I want the Min ister, if he will, to take a look at why the rapid growth in the expenditures of operating the racing commission. I'm told that a few years ago, by Order in-Council, that the honorarium paid to commission members was increased and that perhaps this was justifiable.

But I'm also led to believe that rather than just the chairman attending the Canadian Racing Association meetings, that now the whole board goes to the meetings. Last year the meetings were held in Vancouver and the complete board went out to the meetings for a four-day conference. Well these things are going to start to cost a lot of money and the legal fees with the Racing Commission have increased dramatically over the last few years. Old-time rs from the board tell me that when Mr.

Halter was the chairman, that he was a practising lawyer and many times these small legal items that had to be attended to from the Commission, he did them, and he did them free of charge, because he was a member of the board and being paid a honorarium to be a member of the board. Now they farm the legal work out. Two years ago, they had a Winnipeg lawyer who billed them $13,000 for a report and the report was never acted upon. They changed the executive di rector two years ago, perhaps it was a personality clash between the then acting director and the chairman of the Racing Commission at that time.

The executive director of two years ago was a graduate chartered accountant that had been a horse owner and knew the horse game, as it could be said, and being a practicing chartered accountant, he had the business experience to be on there. He was replaced by a person from Ontario who didn't have an accounting background and therefore couldn't do most of the accounting work. They increased the staff members from two secretaries to three secretaries. The former executive di rector told me once that he had a difficult time keeping one secretary busy out there.

He couldn't believe it that they would have three secretaries for the executive di rector. In a nutshell, Mr.

Min ister, with the costs of operating the Racing Commission tripling over a few years' period, I might tell him that there's approximately 1, 000 thoroughbred races in a season or 100 days of racing, at 10 race cards per day, that if he had took the $300,000 extra money that was being spent on running the Racing Commission and you divided it by 1, 000, we could increase the purses by $300 per race. it's the Manitoba horsemen that are having the difficult time, at this time, because the purses haven't been increasing over the last few years and the costs of being in the horse racing busi ness have been skyrocketing. 1701 Another area of interest perhaps to the Min ister perhaps is that 35 percent of the wagering at the track is done by personnel who work at the track or own horses. it's not uncommon to see a horseman who has a favourite horse running in a race to be a substantial bettor on that race.

All horseman, I am told, believe that their horse is the best and therefore their horse is going to win and they are heavy bettors. So I say to the Min ister, I am hoping from his announcement this afternoon, of Mr. Chisvin embarking on taking a total review of the track, keeping in mind that Min neapolis next year will be having a track. In the past a great deal of tourism dollars to Manitoba has been people from the northern United States from as far away as Min neapolis and I would say, from here on in, that anybody who would reside in Fargo, North Dakota, it Y..

Ould be easier for them to travel to Minn eapolis to their track than up to Winnipeg, in spite of the fact that our dollar has a lower value. So these are some of the areas I would hope that the Min ister would pass onto Mr. Chisvin and that the Minis ter would himself take an active part, in trying to see that this track is maintained in Manitoba, because it is a major tourist attraction and the horse-racing business in Manitoba is big business. There are in excess of 400 persons earning their living at the track and the track has got a bi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-3-38a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 3rd hansardpdf 38a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b616df9ffb39948dfdc5323ae3bbcdd6f472c57a

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