VOL.2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, JUNE 5, 1980 N0.57

June 5, 1980 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker , in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. SPEAKER: MR. G. OTTENHEL'!ER: Tape 2084 EC - 1 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hen. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform hen. nernbers of an appointment within the ranks of the Warder Service of the Province, and that is the appointment of Chief Warder Leo Biggs to the rank of Assistant Superintendent of the Penitentiary, a position which has been vacant since the promotion of Mr. Alex Yetman, Superintendent, following, of course, the retirement of Mr. Squires. Mr.

Biggs is a native of St. John's, educated at Model High School. He joined the staff of the Penitentiary in 1958 and has served in a number of capacities as acting Sergeant Warder in 1967, Sergeant Warder in 1969 and Kead Warder in 1974. Since March, 1975, he has served as Chief Warder at the Penitentiary, the main institution on Forest Road. He has successfully completed a number of courses, including a five semester correctional officer's training programme conducted by L~e University and a management tra~ning programme conducted by the Public Service Commission.

His record in the service is one of dedicated and efficient service which has earned him the respect of the various superintendents under whom he has worked. I am sure hen. members join me in congratulating Chief Warder Biggs on his appointment to the rank of Assistant Superintendent. That becomes effective next Monday, which is the 9th of June. SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MS L. VERGE: Hear, hear! Any further statements? The hon. the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker , I would like to further clarify my response to the question raised yesterday by the hon. the m~er for Port au Port (Mr. J.

Hodder) on proposed new school construction for 1980 - 1981. My colleague, the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) made the following statement in his Budget 5474

June 5, 1980 Tape 2084 EC - 2 MS L.

VERGE: presentation to the House on March 28th, and :r quote: "Govenunent will provide the necessary funding to enable the denominational education committees to undertake $12 million worth of critical.ly needed school construction in 1980 - 1981; this is in addition to a similar amount approved a few months ago." Under the Schools Act, school boards are required to contrillute 10 per cent towards the cost of school construction projects and in authorizing school boards, through the denominational education committees,to undertake $12 million worth of school construction, the gove~t share will be 90 per cent o£ $12 million or $10. 8 million. :rn this respect, now that the 1980 - 1981 Budget has received House of · Assembly approval, each of the three denominational education coiiJPLittee .s will be authorized to borrow its proportion of the approved $10.8 million from one of the chartered banks operating in thi _s Province and the denOlllinational education committees will decide wlU,ch school construction projects will be approved.

These proportions are stipul-ated in the Schools Act which states that moneys provided by govenunent for school construction 11ll1St be allocated in the proportion that each of the various denominations bears to 5475

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2085 SD - 1 MS. L. VERGE: the total provincial population using the latest census available. In accordance with this legal requirement the approximate amount that each co~ittee will be authorized to borrow is as follows: The Intergrated Education Committee - $6,210,00; the Catholic Education Committee - $3,969,000; the Pentecostal Committee - $608,000; and the Seventh Day Adventist Assembly is $13,000 for a total of $10.8 million.

When these amounts have been drawn down by the Denominational Educational COmmittees government will undertake to provide to the Committees each year the necessary funds required by each COmmittee to service this debt. I would like to remind this ~on.

House that similar amounts were approved for each Committee under last year's budget so by the end of this fiscal year government will have provided $21.6 million to bank financing for new school construction which together with the 10 per cent required contribution of school boards will result in $24 million worth of new school construction during the fiscal years 1979-80 and 1980-81. . In closing, l'.r.

Speaker, contrary to certain statements that have been made recently there have never been any indication to the Denominational Education committee by the Department of Education and/or this government or indeed any intention that this co11111itment will not be honoured. Also, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to say that about $200 million worth of new school construction haE taken place in this Province over the last ten years but in spite of this major effort improvements are urgently needed to school facilities in a number of areas.

I believe our effort in the past demonstrates our reco9J1ition and concern for new school construction requirements in this Province and we plan to do all we can within the next four or five years to provide necessary resources to the church authorities to permit them to meet all remaining critical school construction needs. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, in responding to the minister's S47S

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2085 SD - 2 MR. OJ. HODDI!lR: statement, it .ls kind of a st:tanqe situation where the minister does not answer the question one day and c:Omes back with a Ministerial Statement the next day in order "" SOME RON. ME$ERS: Oh., oh. MR. G. PLIGH'l': It is out of order, you know. MR. J. HODDER: But, Mr. Speaker, be that as it may, if she had waited I was qoin.q tO ask her another q:uestion today anyhow on it. Mr.

Speaker, t6 answer the minister, the question that I asked yesterday was prompted ·by a letter which was written by the Executive Secretary of the Interqrated Education Committee to one of my colleagues. And in that letter he stated, "As you are awa:re th.e qo'ilernment in its Budget Speech, March 28th, 1980 said that it would be makinq $10,800,000 available to the Denominational Education committe .es for new school construction in this year. However,we have been advised that qovernment is not expecting us to use any portion of thi!ot money for several months down the road." Now I take it frol!l that, Mr.

Speaker, that that means the gove :mment advised the Denominational Education Committees that they did not want them to use this particular money yet and that is the only question I ask and I asked 5477

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2086 EL - 1 MR. J. HODDER: the minister yesterday why that was happening. Is it because the government is waiting for the interest rates to lower or is it because the money is not available or what? But that is what was contained in this particular letter frcm the Executive secretary of the Integrated Education Committee. He go•s on to say,''"However, we have been advised that the government is not expecting us to use any portion of that money for several months down the road. As a consequence, they did not make p~ision in the estimates for the amortization of the $10,800,000.

It is very uncertain at this point in time when any portion of that money will he made available to us to enable us to make a commit­ ment to the school boards." Mr. Speaker, that is why I was asking the question. Either there is some lack of communication between the Denominational Education Committee and the minister's department or, you know- basi::ally I had never said that the minister was backing off of the ~12,000,000,or ~10,800,000 as it translates to the Denominational Education Committee. I had never said that.

The quastion I asked yes­ terday - the last question I asked yesterday concerns - I asked the minister in light of the fact that the Denominational Education Committee had been asvised that the department would rather that they did not send this money next year. Mr. Speaker, I submit this and if you wish I will table it. I did read from it but that is why I asked the question, Mr.

Speaker, and I ask the minister now perhaps that she could contact the Denominational Education Committee to find out just what is going on and perhaps - and I would think that and perhaps answer sometime to the House as to whether there is any relation between the Department of Education and the Denominational Education Committee e• if they are talking to each other or what or if there is any understanding as to what is going on from one camp to the other. MR. G. FLIGHT: Hear, hear: 5478

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2086 EL - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen. the member for Fogo. MR. B. TULJC: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education (L. Verge) and it concerns a report that was - you cannot say it was recently done. It has been done for some time and that is the task force report on education, ~eclining enrollmer.~ specifically,in the Province. As we know,that task force was brought in with great gusto and was supposed to do many things for education in Newfoundland. My question to the minister is just what is the status of that report now?

How many recoll!lllendations have yo~; implemented', how many are you thinking of implementing or are you going to shelve the whole report? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. L. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the final report of the task force on education was released last July. In the approximately eleveR months since,the report has been widely circulated among educators and other interested people throughout the Province.

The Education Depart­ ment invited interested people to respond to the recommendations contained in the report and there has been an excellent response with quite a bit of constructive criticism and input on the many issues addressed by the task force report. The task force did touch on most important questions in education ranging fram the allocation of personnel and other resources to curriculum issues. The recommendations dealing with the allocation of personnel were 5479

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2087 DW - 1 MS. VERGE: used in government's determina- tion of changes to the teachers' salary regulations this year. The recommendations were not accepted in total but the recommendations,along with the constructive criticism from various interest groups,1as a basis for government's decision. Other recommendat~ons are being evaluated at the department, some of them1 can be acted on at :he de­ partmental level, others require policy decisions by government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. B. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) hon. member for Fogo. MR. B. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary question, the Mr. Speaker, one of the s~ries of recommendations that was in that task force report concerns school busing and particularly the distances that different aged students ~nd different classes of students should have to walk at particulartimes of year. I wonder if the minister has acted on any of those recommendations or just what does she have in mind with regard 3 to the recommendations of the school busing? MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, the Education Depart- ment has no present intention of changing the arrangement for provision of free school bus transportation. At present that involves providing free bus transportation for all students living more than on9 mile from their school. arrangement is quite generous compared with the other This provinces of the country. The recommendation of a task force report to vary the distance for older children-and younger children have been looked at 1but at the moment there is no intention to make any change. 5480

June 5, 1980 MR. B. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): hon. member for Fogo. MR. B. TULK: Tape No. 2087 DW - 2 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . A final supplementary, the Mr. Speaker, one recommenda- tion of the task force that the minister has implemented is the recommendation that the positions of co-ordina­ ting principal and co-ordinating vice-principal in the Province be eliminated. And another action that the minister has taken this year is to cut back on the number of regular classroom teachers - I maintain by 102, the minister says seventy-six and I am talking about regular classroom unitis - and in my opinion, Mr.

Speaker, and certainly in certain parts of the Province that I have been in contact with, there has been a serious lowering of teacher morale and, ! suggest, teacher effectiveness in the classroom as a result of the implementation of those two steps by the minister.

My question to the minister is has she, as the chief executive officer of education in this Province, found out that indeed there is a lowering of morale of teachers, and that in many cases we are perhaps sitting on a powder keg where we may find teachers certainly at the next collective bargaining stage walking out of the classroom or even indeed going on strike as a result of some of the things that are happening now? 5481

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2088 NM ~ 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the decision to eliminate the position of co~rdinating or supervising, principals was based on the recommendation made by the task force. It was a recommendation which met with wide acceptance from the various interest groups in education. That position is generally considered to be redundant because of the way that the education system has evolved from twenty years ago when that position was created.

As for the pupil/teacher ratio, since 1972, approximately, when student enrollment peaked in our Province, we have had a loss of approximately 13,000 s.tudents in kingdergarten through senior high school provincewide. This drop in student enrollment of approximately 13,000 has coincided with an increase in the number of teachers of over 700, therefore the number of teachers per student now in our schools is greater than it has ever been, never before have there been so many teachers for so few students in such good school buildings in our Province. And the decision to - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MS. VERGE: - decrease the number of teaching positions for next year,which will coincide wiL~ a drop in enrollment next year compared with this year of 3,000, is made in the context of the total budget. Cushioning measures were adopted for those boards experiencing severe enrollment declines with a three per cent limit on the number of teaching positions any one board may lose regardless of the student enrollment decline, and with the introduction of twenty-five new positions SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh!

Order, please! - for special education. Hear, hear! 5482

June 5, 1980 Tape No . 20 88 NM- 2 MR. SPEAl<ER (Simms) : The non. member for Eag .le River. MR. HISCOCK : My question is also to the Minister of Education. The task force repo .rt recommended that one room schools were also entitled to extra teachers. The communities of Pinsent Arm and Northern Bay down in Labrador are enti tied to two extra teachers, or an extra teacher each • Could the ti!inister provide us with t:he information why these two schools do not have these teachers and why they are in St .. Anthony teaching at the larger schools~ MR.B~~ .MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: That is right. You are righf: on.

The hon. Mini-ster of Education • Mr . Speaker, the decision to allocate teaching units to particular schools ~~ts exclusively with the local .. -- - school board. The Education Department makes block allocations of teacher salary units to each of the thirtr-five local schQol boards in the Province and it is up to the local school board, COlllprising elected and appointed people, c.lose to the local situation, to decide how those units are used, in which schools they are placed, which. subjects they will teach.

I am not intimately familiar with the schools ·to which you refer, but I will take that as notice, Mr .• speaker. .MR. SPEAKER: .MR. BENNETT: The hon. member for St. Barbe • Mr. Speaker, my question is d.irected to the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture, and it is regarding the big game hunting. At this time of year 1 5483

June 5,1980 Tape No. 2089 AH-1 MR. BENNETT: people like to plan their holidays, be it a July holiday or a Fall holiday. I am wondering how long before the draw takes place for the big game hunting? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Recreation and Culture. MR. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Tourism, Mr. Speaker, I am told that no later than the last week in June people will be notified as to whether in fact they have been successful in the draw. MR. BENNETT: MR. SPEAKER: for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: A supplementary. A supplementary. The hon. member Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is of great concern to the people because if they are not notified until the middle or later part of July, they have missed the July holiday season so they would like to have this notification. So if it is going to be after the end of June and then it gets into the middle of July and the last of July 1 they have given up their Summer holidays, Mr. Speaker ! and then they ma~ no~ still get their hunting licence. So I am wondering if there is any way to •pe~d it up. Why d~s it take so long? Because it has been a couple of months al.ready since the applications have come in. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon.Minister of 'l't111ri"'•• 0 "!e~l'!~io!'l and Culture. MR. DAWE: Th~ bunting draw,Mr. Speaker, aoes through Newfoundland Information Services and there is a certain amount of other work that they have to do and they

schedule in various departments and various projects into their scheduling process and I am assured that the the process will not take longer than the end of June . I realize some of the problems in planning holidays but that is as fast as the procedure will allow it to happen. MR. SPEAKER: MR .FLIGHT: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Dinn). I want to draw to ~he minister's attention a situation that exists re the Workers' Compensation Board 5484

June 5,1980 MR. FLIGHT: I am told they are people, Tape No. 2089 AH-2 that is not acceptable, Mr. Speaker. men whom the WOrkers' compensation Board require to come to St. John's for medical attention, for diagnosis or for meetings with the board,are being treated in a sense as second class citizens. They are not getting the travel allowance that other people travelling as a result of requests by government, they are b;!ing housed and forced to live in what would have to be considered second class accomodations in st. John's 1 so I wonder if the minister would want to make a comment on those statements as maee ?

MR. SPEAKER (Simms)' Manpower. MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour and Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any Newfoundlander that is being treated by the Workers' Comp~sation Board or any government department as second class citizens. If the hon. member has specific cases which he would like to relate to me,I will certainly investigate them and see what if any troth there is to it. MR. FLIGHT: ~ supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ~ supplementary question. The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans.

MR.FLIGHT: I would ask the minister then to indicate to the House the travel allowance, that is cents per mile permitted to these kind of people who are required to come to St. John's 1 and would he list for the House the boarding houses or the accomodations that the Workers' Compensation Board makes available and forces the people who come in for those reasons to live in? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any citizen of Newfoundland who is forced to live anywhere, I will 5 it BS

June 5, 1980 Tape 2090 EC - 1 MR. J. DINN: seek the informatjon as to what accommodations are supplied to people who apply for Workers' Compensation and have to for some reason or another come in to St. John's for medical checkups and supply them to the hon. gentleman. MR. G. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G.

FLIGHT: Well, the minister is aware, undoubtedly, as being the mlnister responsible for the Workers' Compensation Board, that tiere are literally hundreds of people per month coming from all over Newfoundland as a result of accidents or industrial diseases and what have you, being put up in accommodations in St. John's. I would ask the minister again whether or not the WOrkers' Compensation Board has selected and listed boarding houses in the city of St.

John's in which these men must live, and in the event that the people do not want to live in these particular accommodations that the amount of money allowed for boarding in St. John's is not adequate to get them into what they consider to be decent accommodations in this city? MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: The han. the Minister of Labour Mr. Speaker, the answer is the same as the previous answers I have given the han. gentleman, I will certainly investigate and find out and get all the information that is available and provide it to the hon. gentleman and to this hon. House. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon, the member for LaPoile. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY: Mr.Speaker, my question is for the hon. minister of Health (Mr. House). Could the minister indicate to the House if all the beds have yet opened over at the Health SciencesComplex or are there beds on the floors over there that are not yet being used? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. 5486

June 5, 1980 Tape 2090 EC - 2 MR. W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take notice of the question. But there is one of the floors that has not been completed as yet and as was announced the other day by the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn), through the hospital board and the :iorkers' Compensation Board there will be extra beds go onstream in that particular hospital, the Health Sciences Complex. I do not know of any beds that are not in use at the present time, but I will take it as notice. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for LaPoile. MR.

S • NEAHY : A supplementary question, A supplementary, the hon. the member Mr. Speaker, the minister also made a statement the other day outside the House that some beds would have to close - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. •SPEAKER: Order, please! I am afraid I cannot hear the hon. member. MR. S. NEARY: - some beds would have to close this Summer because of a shortage of nurses. Could the minister identify where these beds will be closed, what hospitals? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Hinister of Health. MR. w. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, I was responding to a question from the media as to a statement that was made by another person. The fact was that we had had a report in from hospitals in the Province as of the lst of March this year asking about the manpower situation and three of the hospitals indicated that they may have to close some beds. One 1 I think, was St. Anthony, another was the Grace Hospital and another was the Western Memorial.

Since that particular time 1 of course, I know the Western 1-lemorial do not think they will have to close any beds , but there may be some problems of opening some extra beds that would be going onstream later this year in the extended care unit. Other situations that may arise that we have no indication of 5487

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2091 so - 1 MR. W. HOUSE : at this point in time. It is the situation such as happened, for instance, in Harbour Breton last year when there was a severe shortage of nurses there in the Summer but we did not have to close any beds there at that particular time but it was touch and go. So what we are saying now is that we have the indications of the lst of March that that may happen but we are not really expecting that it will. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementary, the hen. member for LaPoile. MR. S.

NE.AR'l: Could the hon. gentleman indicate what impact this will have then on the service? Will it be in the field of surgery that the hospitals will have to cut back? Where will the cutbacks take place? And at the same time the hen. gentleman is on his feet, could he indicate what is being done about the nursing shortage? I believe there was a recruitment programme underway the last time, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. E. Roberts) asked the hon. gentleman a question. Have they had any success with the recruiting programme: Can the minister give us an idea of the amount of the shortage?

You know, is it huge, is it if the hoD. gentleman does not have the figures , could he tell us if it is serious? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. W. HOUSE: We have no new figures and I want to point out that the situation anticipated this summer is no different from what has existed in previous years. Where will the closure be ,if any, I can not say but one of the things that we do find in the Summer that usually a lot of doctors, for instance,take holidays during the Stm~~rer and there is not so much surgery that takes place, S1~T'C"T"Y that is not immediately required.

With respect to nursing shortages, the Association of Registered Nurses of Newfoundland and our department , our manpower planning person. are wo%Xing on looking at the shortage of nurses in the Province and trying to develop a plan and I think they are making good progress on it. When I mentioned that there was some 5~88

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2091 SD - 2 MR. W. HOOSE: effort in rec:Nitinq that was not an action be:i,ng ~en by the department at all, it was two or three of these hospita.ls who were expectinc;r a shortage in the SUIIIDI!r, these were the ooes who were recruitinq and I. am · not aware of what their success h$5 been but I have sotne infO:mation from at least one hospital that they do not think they will have to close anY beds this samner, one of the three. AN RON. MEMBER: MR. W , HOUSE: ~- S:PEAKER: (Sili!IDS) ~- G. WARl!BN: 'fhat is the Wes:tem Memorial. Yes. The bon. the member for 'romqa:t Moantains. Yes, t'lr.

Speaker, my q'\lestion is tO the Minister of Fisheri:es (Mr. J. Morqan). e»uld the minister advise if this br~ure of the Fishing Vessel Assistance Plan appli .es to all fishermen in the Province? 5489

June 5, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. MORGAN: Tape No. 2092 NM - 1 The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I am assuming that he is referring to the new regulations for the Fisheries Loan Board, or the new programme,as it is called, the Fishing Vessel Assistance Programme and that programme and regulations regarding it, yes 1it does include and govern all fishermen throughout the Province~ MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary question, the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, on several occasions now I have heard the minister say, and this government in particular say, that they would be consulting with the people.

I w~ just wondering if the minister and/or his officials have discussed first and foremost with his colleague, the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and North .e_rn Development, and also with the Labrador Resources Advisory Council which this government and this minister say is a consulting body 9r whom they say is a part of the ongoing process between government and the people of Labrador, have they consulted with the Labrador Resources Advisory Council concerning this brochure that they are bringing in concerning bounties to fishermen? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of ~isheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, no.

Speaking of consultations, the consultations took place with all people connected with the fishing industry. The Labr.ador Advisory body is not connected with the industry directly, but therewere consultations directly with the Fishermen's Union, there were consultations directly with the Fish Trades Association, consultations with the Independent Processors Association: in other words, all the organizations and groups connected with the fishing industry were consulted before we made any policy changes pertaining to the Fisheries Loan Board.

And with regard to consultation with the Labrador Advisory body, I did not make any effort to consult with that group. I do not know if any of my colleagues did, or any of my officials in the Department of Fisheries did, but we saw no reason to do that because we had the Fishermen's Union,which represents fishermen on the Labrador 5490

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2092 NM- 2 MR. MORGAN:

section of the Province just as well as the rest of the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A final supplementary, the hen. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I understand from the last part of the minister's statement he does not even know which area of the Province the Fishermen's Union represents. They do not represent any fishermen North of Rigolet, number one. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear: MR. WARREN: And secondly is that the Premier - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please: The hon. member is not permitted to debate.

He has to ask a supplementary question. MR. WARREN: made a statement on October 31st. saying that bounties for fishermen in Labrador would be from eighteen feet up MR. HISCOCK: North of Henley Harbour. MR. WARREN: - and twenty-five feet down would be included for the Labrador fishermen. And here we have the minister going ahead and saying all fishermen are - AN HON. MEMBER: Question please. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: The hon. member has a question. MR.

WARREN: I am jus.t asking the minister the ;final question 1 Does the minister consider fishermen's committees as part of the process of going through or considering when he is makin~ recomffiendations? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that if we had to get down to the point of consulting with all the fishermen's committees around the Province then we would have, I think we have approximately- what? 5q91

June 5, 1980 SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. MORGAN: from people on the other siae? MR. SPEAKER (Simms·): MR. MORGAN: wants the answer, I assume . Tape No. 2092 NM- 3 Oh, oh~ Mr. Speaker, could I have some quiet Order, please! The gentleman asked a question and Mr. Speaker, 5 i! 9 2

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2093 ow - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: in consultation today it is difficult to consult with all the fishermen individually. It is difficult, Mr . Speaker, to consult with all the fishermea's committees that are sitting around the Province - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. J. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. J. MORGAN : Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, please! Order, please! Therefore, , Mr. Speaker, we consult thorough:!.y with the Pis .hermen 's Union .

The Fisher­ men's Union has a membership now of appro&imately, I think, something like 14,000 or 15,000 fishermen in their membership 1 which they consider to be bonafide fishermen. And surely when the Fishermen's Union sits down with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the officials 1 they are speaking on behalf of the membership. And the Execu­ tive Board of the Fishermen's Union we are consulting with almost every day on all matters pretain±ng to fisheries and fishe~ies development. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for S~. Mary's- The Capes. HR . D. HAN COCK: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries. I am just wondering if the minister is in favour of the caplin q:uotas that have been laid down or would he like to see no caplin quotas at all.or 1 indeed,should there be a caplin quota laid down 1 or give up the caplin altogether? MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I am in favour of a caplin quo~a based on the following: the fact that Canada ~as successful in arranging~at the recent NAFO 5493

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2093 DW - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: meetings, North Atlantic Fisheries Organization meetin~ in having a total ban placed on all offshore fishing for caplin. They were successful in getting that achievement at the most recent meeting of NAFO. And we have been saying it for years that there should be a ban on the offshore fishing for caplin because we felt it was overfished for years by the foreign nations.

In order to get that kind of a concurrence of the other nations 1 it was felt that there had to be some concession and the concession in this case was for the country of Canada to agree to place quotas on the inshore fishery. So this year they placed the quota on the inshore fishery for caplin South of Cape Freels 1 and the placed a tonnage, a total tonnage of approx­ imately 16,000, I think it is, 16,000 metric tons. Last year the total catch in that area was 13, 000 metric tons. So I have some reasons to be concerned with the quotas but I agree. with setting the total quota.

But the manner in which the quota is being allocated to fixed gear and to the purse seines I think is going to see the recurrence of the problems we saw in the herring fishery where the fishermen are going to be squabbling over the quotas because certain boats, the large boats have a quota and the six gear inshore ~oats have a different quota and they are going to be complaining about the allocation of each quota. But I do agree with the overall setting of a total inshore quota for caplin this year. MR. D. HANCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the han. member fo:::- c;<,r:,•'s - for St. Mary's- The Capes. 5494

June S, 1980 Tape No. 2093 OW - 3 t1R. 0. HANCOCK: You are having a hrd time with that one today, Mr. Speaker. I was just wondering if the caplin quotas that have bee n laid down will have an effect on the cod fishery around the Province? Does the minister feel that it will have an effect vn the number of cod that will come in the district if there are too many caplin being taken? J1R. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. NR . J. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will say that we have reasons to be concerned right now with the lack of a sign of codfish on the inshore fishing grounds.

It is now the Sth. of June and all along the Northeast coast in particular there is very little sign of codfish including 5495

June 5,1980 Tape No. 2094 AH-1 MR.MORGAN: around to Cape St. Mary's and to St. Mary's Bay, very little sign of cod fish and we are concerned over this and we are wondering why , is it because the caplin has been over fished offsho~e and there is no migration of caplin to the inshore waters which could be a possibility or is it the fishing activity in the offshore? There is presently being 25,000 metric tons taken by the foreign nations of Northern cod in the offshore. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. MORGAN: Oh, oh! Order, plese! It could be that, Mr.Speaker.

It could be the fishing activity in the offshore and it could be the major overfishing of the caplin species in the offshore and thirdly according to scientists, it could be the reason that the water is extremely cold and extremely dirty and there is what they call a slubby water all along the coast and that could be a reason as well. But right now there are reasons for concern because there is little or no sign of codfish in the inshore fishing grounds to date. MR.SPEAKER: The hon.member for Port au Port. MR.HODDER : Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Fisheries (J).<.r.

Morgan), or another question for the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker,in

preamble to this question, since the question is on lobsters I might say that lobster prices are up because I know when I ask the question the minister is going to respond with that particular remark, but since lobster prices are up in various parts of the province I would like to ask the minister why we ·have ·discrepancies through the Province - and I have seen some of the figures which the minister has -why there are discrepancies across the Province of as much as thirty cents a pound, .say, between Port au Choix and Port au Port?

I use those as exan.~ ,J.es out there are places across the Province where you have discrepancies of twenty to thirty cents per pound with lobster particularly in light of the view that the minister said he would be trying to stabilize the prices. I understand that he meant by stabilization 5496

June 5,1980 Tape No. 2094 AH-2 MR. HODDER: as well that the fishermen would sort of get a general price across the board. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. MORGAN: rhe han. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, that question is indeed an important one and I thank the hon . gentleman for asking it because information on the pricing of lobsters came to my attention yesterday.

In fact each and every week 1and almost every second day 1in fact,I get a report from the Fishing Industry Advisory Board,as I earlier said that I wanted to be done,on the pricing of lobsters in the Province and our position has been we want to make sure that there is at least a minimum price of $1.70 and the companies not to go below that and if they go below that price to indicate to the Fishing Industry ~dvisory Board why they are paying less than $1.78.

Fortunately in recent days the market in Boston has improved somewhat and the market for the fishermen here has improved somewhat whereby on the Great Northern Peninsula , Mr. Speaker, for the information of the members of the House,lobster fishermen are now getting in Port Saunders and Port au Choix $2.10 per pound. MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the han. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: The question I asked the minister, Mr.

Speaker, is very clear because I knew what the minister would do, he would get up and he would sound off about the increase in the price of lobster. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: What is the member's point of order? MR. HODDER: The point of order, Mr. Speaker, is that the minister is not answering the question. My question tias specific; my question was what is the minister doing about the discrepancy in prices and why is there a discrepancy of almost thirty cents a pound from 1say 1Port au Choix to Port au Port; why are certain buyers paying thirty cents a pound more than others? 5497

Juen 5,1980 Tape No. 2094 AH-3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! With zespect to the point of order, there is no point of order. The Standing Orders are quite clear. If a member is not satisfied with the answer ~e receives to a question 1he follows the Standing Orders. The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Okay 1 I will make it brief, ~rr. Speaker, and rather than give the detailed information that the House should know anyway I will probably make it tomorrow in a Ministerial Statement and give the information then , so either way. But in answering the question now, Mr.

Speaker, about the discrepancy between the prices paid in the Port au Port Peninsula and those in the Great Northern Peninsula, the pricet . on the Port au Port Peninsula right now by a collector in Stephenville is $1.87 per pound and - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: Minister of Fisheries. MR •. }10RGAN: Oh, no (Inaudible) Order, please! Mr. Speaker, could I have some silenc~? You have about ten seconds. The bon. And the price on the Northern Peninsula, Mr. Speaker, is, as I mentioned, $2.10. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: \fuy the difference in price?

I cannot indicate to the House why the price discrepancy but I think that if the member is concerned over the price being paid to fishermen he could very well make representation to the company concerned and ask them why they are not paying the same price. MR. HODDER: What is the minister doing? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. On behalf of ho~. members 1I would like to ask hon. members to welcome to the gallery today the Mayor of the town of the Goulds in the district of Kilbride and partly in the district 5498

June 5,1980 Tape No. 2094 AH-4 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): of Ferryland 1 I understand, Mayor Lewis Power . SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I am also pleased to welcome on behalf of han. members a group of students from Sunnyside Integrated School in the district of Belle'VIle with their teacher Mr. Don Condoll; We hope they enjoy their visit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES The han. the Minister of Justice. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: If I may · I would like to table persuant to the Statutes and Subordinate Leqislation Act a copy of subordinate legislation which is filed under that a.ct and this, of course 1 is a compilation undertaken by the office of the Legislative Council and this contains additions of the Newfoundland Gazette published 5499

June 5, 1980, Tape 2095, Page l -- apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: between November 9, 1979 and May 23, 1980. I am not sure if all hon. members will wish to have all of this photostated. Some may find it extremely interesting reading but others might find it a little bit dull. NOTICES OF HOTION MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Public Works And Services Act". PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Kilbride. MR. AYLWARD: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 1,145 residents of the districts of Kilbride and Ferryland. The prayer of this petition reads, "We, the residents of the provincial electoral districts of Kilbride and Ferryland, specifically the towns of the Goulds and Kilbride, object strongly to the route of the proposed by-pass road,chosen by the government, through the towns of the Goulds and Kilbride.

As residents of these towns we feel that our best interests would be served if the provincial government, through the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing, found an alternate route such as one adjacent to the Bay Bulls Big Pond pipeline road." Mr. Speaker, this by­ pass road,or corridor for a by-pass road now appears on the St. John's Urban region plan and on the proposed Goulds town plan. And since I have been 5500

June 5, 1980, Tape 2095, Page 2 -- apb MR. AYLWARD: elected, the first time I saw the route proposed or to be chosen, I figured there would be trouble just as we decided to lay out this by-pass road.

This road would interfere with many of the residents of the Goulds, particularly, because it would go pretty well through the heart of the Goulds, interferring with a lot of single family houses, a trailer park, several by-roads through the Goulds and,in particular, this by-pass road will interfere,eitherdirectly or indirectly, with five of the eleven existing dairy farmers who remain in the Kilbride and Goulds areas.

Over the past few years we have enforced anagricultural zone in Kilbride and the Goulds and I would suggest that this by-pass road, if built as proposed, will adversely affect the whole agricultural industry in our districts. This petition, also, Mr. Speaker, is in support of a proposal,which I will deliver to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. Windsor), which was prepared by the town council of the Goulds and by certain residents of the Goulds.

They have put quite a bit of work into this to try to discourage the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing planning people from putting this road in this area and they have suggested that it would b.e moved to an alternate area. This alternate area, I might add, is not going to be,in itself, free from problems, there are also some dairy fa~ers in that area and some hog producers who, also, will have to be accommodated.

But the proposed route, by the people who present this petition, and by the Goulds town council, would not interfere with the people in this community as much as the route as designed on the 5501

June 5, l980, Tape 2095, Page 3 -- apb MR. AYLWARD: urban region plan. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon.the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I just want briefly to support the petition because I think I can claim an assist on this one.

I was the one who put the residents on to the hon. gentleman in the beginning because the people, I believe, on the Shoal Bay Road were the ones who were complaining bitterly because they woke up one morning and saw the government surveyors out driving pegs in the ground, the outline of a road that would go, in some cases, right through the living rooms of some of the residents who lived along that road. And some of these houses, as the hori. member knows, are new houses. Some of them were built within the last year or two with permits issued by the town council of the Goulds. So, Mr.

Speaker, as the hon. gentleman indicated, it is a very simple matter to change the route, change the course of this road and I think it should be done. I think the government should lay off these high-handed tactics of sending in the surveyors, driving pegs in the ground without any warning to the residents who live in a particular area and frightening them because these people actually thought they were going to lose their new homes. And they may yet, I do not know, because there is no .i.ndication that the government is going to agree to change this route.

But in some cases, the house will either have to be removed a.ltogether because the new 5502

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2096 EL - 1 MR. S. NEARY: arterial road or by-pass road, or whatever you want to call it, would be going right through the centre of the house. So I support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I hope the minister will give it the consideration that it deserves. AN HON • MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon the Minister of Forests Re- sources and Lands. MR. C. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I also would like to support fully the petition that was pr.e~ented so~ably by my good friend and colleague from Kilbride(R.

Aylward) and also to say that I support fully the proposal, the alternate prcposal,if you want,beir.g presented to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing(N. Windsor). I would like to take exception to a remark made by the member for LaPoile (S. Neary) in saying that it is a high-handed tactic of government. One of the unfortunate points,as it relates to these types of plans for by­ pass roads and for roads in general,is the fact that that thing was passed at a public meeting and at a series of public meetings in the area of the Goulds ln 1976 or 1977, I believe.

And because of 1 I supppse 1. illmcst an uncaring attitud~ sometimes about long-range planning,people do not pay as much particular attention to it as they might. certainly in the town of the Goulds now,particularly where there is such a great demand for agricultural land and for residential land 1 and when we as a Province are losing more agricultural land each year to different types of land usages,for developments and housing and residential and the like, it is becomming eKtremely important for us to hold on to the s.all amount of agricultural land that we have left.

And certainly for that reason,if for none other,it is good that we would take anotherroute for thatby-passroad that would go away from the agricultural land and go into an area on the back of the Goulds that is not now being 5503

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2096 EL - 2 MR. C. POWER: developed or is not now being used for agriculture. Certainly, as I say, I support fully the petition ~d the a~ternate proposal. But certainly it was not a high-handed tactic of government to send in surveyors without people knowing were public meetings held. as there MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Before calling orders of the day, I wish to welcome to the Galleries on behalf of hon. members and ask hen. members to join with me in welcoming,if they can take a minute or two, it is a very lengthy list of delegations or groups representing various groups.

So would you welcome please members of the following groups:The Association of Registered Nurses of Newfoundland and Labrador, The Early Childhood Development Association, The Canadian Federation of University Women, the Women's Association of Memorial University, Mem­ orial University Association of Women Students, the Newfoundland Ass­ ociation of Public Employees Women's Committee, Newfoundland and Lab­ rador Federation of Labour, Planned Parenthood, Memorial University of Newfoundland Faculty Association, Canadian Research Institute for the Advancement of Women, Nati~al Action Committee on the Status of Women, The Canadian Advisory «ouncil on the Status of Women, the Newfoundland Status of Women Council, The Corner Brook Status of Women council , and the St.

John's Rape Crisis Centre. we trust that they will find the afternoon's proceedings to be informative. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Provide For An Advisory Council on The Status Of Women". (Bill No. 15) MR . SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to move and introduce this bill for second reading to the House. This Bill, Mr. Speaker, represents a part of the continuing determination, will and commitment of the government of this Province 5504

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2096 EL - 3 MR. MARSHALL: to foster and develop women's rights and the interests and concerns of wotBen within our Province. May I say first off, Mr • Speaker, to be on the record on this, that this is really and fittingly so a Bill originally introduced by the Premier and I think it is very fitting that the First Minister of the government should introduce the Bill. He would have hoped to have been here this afternoon to introduce it himself and perhaps he will be before the consideration of this Bill has run its full course.

The Premie:t at the present time is in co:r::ner Brook or was in Cornet' Brook this morning. He left early this morning fo:t a scheduled meeting with the Chamber of Comme:tce in the city of Corner B:took, the Board of T:tade or the Chambe:t of Co111111eree in corner Brook and he is en :route back to St. John's. so hopefully he will be back before the debate is over because otherwise, while I have great pleasure in introducing it, he would, I know.have very much liked to have been here to introduce it himself. Mr.

Speaker, before getting into this Bill which rep:tesents,really,one of the major commitments of this govern­ ment in the area of social policy and social resources, I think it is fitting to reflect on the fact that we are now, as far as this govern­ ment is concerned,almost one year into its mandate. Now 5505

J\Ule 5, 1980 Tape 2097 EC - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: over that period of time, I think if we reflect back we can see that the government has articulated its policies and its aims and directions in various areas. We are familiar certainly with its three main thrusts in the resource policy area and in connection with the fisheries, with the Northern cod, with the necessity of preserving the Northern cod for the inshore fishermen of this Province, and then to the offshore fishery of the Province, and then afterwards to the rest of the Canadian nation.

We are also familiar with its positi~n on the ownership of the offshore resources as well as its position and its determination to rationalize the problem that we face in this Provice with respect to hydro development and hydro resources and recapturing a fair and reasonable rent from our hydro resources, particularly in Labrador. But, Mr.

Speaker, in the social area as well, I think that this government has shown that it is determined to foster both the social and cultural interests of the people of this Province, and it has been evident by the bills and the measures that have been taken by the government in recent times. During this session, we have seen an Arts Council established to foster the interests of the arts in this Province; we have seen the bill for the preservation of areas of land for future generations, the preservation of the wilderness areas and the like.

So we have moved while we have been concentrating, as we must concentrate to some degree on resources. We have not been idle as well, I would submit, Mr. Speaker, in the area of social development. And this farticular bill which we have here is one of the main vehicles of this government in the area of women's rights, in the area of advancing the social and the economic interests of women in the Province. Because, as I said, this government has a real determination, Mr. Speaker, and a recognition of the fact that there must be changes, that changes have to take place in this area as in many other areas.

I would, before I get into the bill, once again refer to the fact that the government has only been in power, 5506

June 5, 1980 Tape 2097 EC - 2 MR. W. ~!ARSHALL : reall~one year. I~ is not quite a year since it received its overwhelming mandate from the people of the Province. And, Mr. Speaker, I think you will see, as I say, when you reflect back that there have been dramatic changes made in this year. When one is involved in governmental process, one hopes to be able to say at the end of the term that things will not be the same as when we were there.

And I think after the first year that this governrr.ent can quite proudly say that there have been changes and there have been dramatic changes in the life of this Province as a result of measures it has taken and as certainly, it undertakes. It is not going to rest on its laurels and it undertakes that in the future there will be even more dramatic changes. Now, this particular bill itself, Mr. Speaker, that we have before the House, this bill establishes an Advisory Council to advise the government and the Premier on matters relating to· the Status of Women in Newfoundland.

By its terms it will set up ,a mechanism or a vehicle whereby there can be brought before not just the government, but the public of the Province, matters of interest and concern to women of Newfoundland and Labrador.

It is envisaged by the terms of ~~e bill that the Advisory Council will be considering submissions from interested groups and individuals throughout the Province from time to time and, as I say, will make recommendations to the government, not only concerning legislation, but wiL~ respect to policies and practices to promote equal opportunity for women and to improve generally the status of women in the Province.

On the other side of the coin, the bill also casts a responsibility onttlis Council itself 1 to ensure that it reports to the government, and by reporting to the government and to the public, the people of Newfoundland, ea~~ year by filing ~ annual report on its activities throughout this year - and it is also provided in the bill that this report will be tabled in the House of Assembly and thereby made public to the people of the Province. 5507

June 5, 1980 Tape 2097 MR. W • .t'.ARSHALL' There is also provision for financing of the Advisory Council - I will speak abo~t that in a moment - as to the current position with respect to financing. EC - 3 It is envisaged that the Council will consist of eleven members who will be appointed by the Cabinet or the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. 5508

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 209 8 so - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: These members will serve without reimbursement and will be appointed for a three year tenn exeept in the first term;the appointments will be staggered somewhat half will be appointed for three years and the other half for two years. The Lieutenant Governor in Co•lncil, the Cabinet, will appoint from these eleven members as well a President and Vice-President who will be the officers of the council and there is provision .< there for the payment of a salary to the President of ths Council.

There will be 1 also, an Administrative Assistant; there is provision there for an Administrative Assistant for the purpose of directing the day to day affairs of the Council. C~vernment this year, Mr. Speaker, has provided funding, the funding is in the nature, to the extent, I believe, of ~90,000.

When one is aware of the financial condition of the Province and one is aware of the budgetary constraints under which we operate, when one is aware of the legitimate demands that come in from all sectors of our society, this represents,really 1 a significant commitment on the part of the government of this Province to the aims and objectives of the Council itself and,as I say, these aims and objectives are for the purpose of fostering the status of women in Newfoundland and their concerns and interests. Mr. Speaker, as I say, I haVI! a great deal of pride in introducing this particular bill.

AN HON • MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. W. MARSHALL : This government has made, I would submit, significant strides in the area of its concern for women's rights. 1\nd I will just enumerate a couple or a few of the measures that it has taken, not that the government intends to rest on its laurels because I understand that we ha·,~ :;..-.~::rited .a situation 1probably 1that has adhered over a number of centuries and changes have to be made and we just can not sit back on our laurels.

But in the past year I would submit that the government has made significant steps in realizinq the commitments that it made during the election and, in particular, the commitments of the hen. the Premier ·~ho has a particular interest in this area, the first being, of course, as we all know 1 the enactment of the Matrimcnial Property Act. 5509

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2098 SD - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. W. MARSHALL: While tlie Matrimonial Property Act itself I do not think it can be styled as purely and simply a matter to benefit women i~ Newfoundland ner se because in our view it was and is a forward and beneficial statute which benefits not just women but the entire family and society and strengthens the fabric of society itself.

It is a revolutionary hill, it will come into effect in three short weeks and government remains very proud of the fact that it took this initiative and it is part of the initiative that government took for puxpose, as I say, of fostering the family in Newfoundland and also fostering the interests of women in the Province. I would also point out that there has been a policy of this government and there will continue to be a policy of this government to appoint more women on boards and councils and corporations and various other organs of the government itself. Again, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice (Mr. G.

Ottenheimer) has already indicated evidence that the government has adopted a policy in the last year which certainly is revolutionary in nature for Newfoundland not necessarily for other parts of the world but here,he has indicated that1he is going to see that women are going to be eligible for appointments and will be appointed to the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. My colleague the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J.

Dinn) recently indicated that there is going to be a woman employed in his ministry for the purpose of looking after the specific interests of women in the workforce in this Province and I think that that also will reap a great deal of benefit and redound ';;o the benefit of all society. Again,in another area in which the government has moved,again in ·the ministry of Justice, the hon. the Minister of Justice and the Department of Justice eo-sponsored a conference which took place on violence in the home which was a very successful and well received one.

We realize, particularly in that area 1 that there is a tremendous amount of work to be done and we look to the Advisory Council and the 5510

June 5! 1980 Tape No. 2098 SD - 3 MR. W. MARSHALL: Status of Women. They I know full well will be able to give us good advice and direction in this particular area because it is a real cronic concern. So in

summary, Mr. Speaker, on that area, SS11

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2099 NM- 1 MR. MARSHALL: I think that this particular act which we are bringing forth now is one of the indications, and one of the evidences which this government has shown in the first year of its commitment and its will and its determination to improve the status of women in this Province, to advance their interests, and to rectify discriminations where they occur. And I can assure the House, and I know I speak for all members of the government, that this particular determination and will which the government has, will be unabated for its term of office , you know, as the years go on.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I again point out that with respect to our commitment and our actions, I have given a resume of that over the past year.nur commitment financially has been the amount of $90,000 which may sound like a fair amount of money to some people and to other people it may seem that wtth the costs and the expenses and the cos~ of living these days, and the cost of everything, that more may be needed.

But it does, and I would assure it represents a fair commitment as far as the government is concerned, and determination from the limited resources which we have, I think it is at this particular state, it is a substantial contribution and an indication of the sincerity of this government to the effect that this is net just a bill that is going to be enacted and forgotten, but it is going to be funded, the council is going to be funded and we hope that insofar as finances can go that this shows the 1 as I say 1the government's sincerity and commitment to it. I started off, Mr.

Speaker, in introducing this bill, by talking about our policies on resources, and again, in relation to this, I think it is relevant for me to once again point out that we cannot consider expenditures and funding for social programmes, beneficial social programmes such as this in isolation. And what I mean by that is that the government intends to, and fervently hopes to be able to strengthen this council with financial and other assistance that it can give.sut the extent to which it can financially, to a large extent, is going to depend to 5512

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2099 NM - 2 MR. ~.ARSHALL: the greatest degree on the .ability of the government, and the future of this Province,to which it is hinged, in realizing its fervent desire and policy to require ownership of our offshore because we think on this · hinges an awful lot of the financing that will be available certainly in the short-term,as well as the development of our fishery, and I think that when people see social programmes of this nature, see programmes of this nature and see what we are doing with it, if they would only realize that we can do an awful lot more if we get control of areas such as that, particularly with resources so that a general policy of the government on its desire to harness our resources for the benefit of the people of Newfoundland will include the Advisory Council and the Status of Women, will include the Art Council, and insofar as we are able to realize this, to realize the rights of the people of Newfoundland, so we will be able to nurture and foster beneficial councils and organizations such as this.

So, Mr. Speaker, I have indicated I would run through then the terms of this bill, what the government has done in the past year. I want to give the House the assurance that the government is not resting on its laurels but realizes that there is still a lonq, long way to go in the real izations of the aims and objectives of the women in Newfoundland. But this is a major piece of legislation,we regard it as such.

It sets up a mechanism which will be not only of benefit to the women of this Province in advancing the interests of the women of this Province in removing discrimination, but it also sets up a very, very useful vehicle as far as the government is concerned to enable there to be a proper and appropriate and well informed dialogue from the representatives of the various women's organizations and from 5513

June 5, 1980, Tape 2100, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: women themselves in Newfoundland to assure that we are doing our utmost to promote and foster the interests of women and to remove, insofar as we possibly can, and as quickly as we can, the last vestige of the unreasoned discrimination that unfortunately still occurs in the Province. So I have great pleasure, Mr. Speaker, in introducing this bill and I look forward to remarks that may be made in the course of the debate to which I will address myself in closing the debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Buttl: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is very unfortunate indeed, very unfortunate that the hon. gentleman had to lower this debate, lower this bill to partisan political politics. The hon. gentleman in introducing the bill dragged in the Northern cod stock, dragged in the :offshore ownership and various other bits and pieces of politics that could have very easily been left out of this. The hon. gentleman in his usual typical fashion in this House, just could not resist the temptation to play politics with the introduction of this bill. Now, first of all, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I think it is a good bill.

We on this side of the House intend to support the bill and we want to congratulate, especially the Newfoundland Status of Women and all the other women~ groups that had input into this legislation. Obviously, the only reason, Mr. Speaker, that we have this bill before the House - it is not the reasons given by the hon. gentleman, not the reasons that we will hear from the Minister of Education (Ms.Verge), the only reason we have this bill before the House is the fact that the women in this 551~

June 5, 1980, Tape 2100, Page 2 -- aph MR. NEARY: particular case carried out a very successful lobby and they are to be congratulated for it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: So I hope nobody is labouring under any illusions that the hon. gentleman who introduced this bill is, in his old age, getting generous with the females in this Province, it came about as a result of representation and input and pressure from the various groups of women - MR. HISCOCK: MR. NEARY: MR. HISCOCK: eight years before. MR. NEARY: They were in there I beg your pardon? They were in here for That is right.

It took them eight years to get around to doing it, and I would have to say that the Minister of Education certainly deserves an assist on this bill. And so, Mr. Speaker, we happen to think it is a good bill and we are going to support it. And not only that, I would like to go a step further, Mr. Speaker, to say this, the hon. gentleman said, 'Oh soon the Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimer) would be admitting females to the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary'. Well, I can go a step further than that, Sir.

The thought has often occurred to me, and moreso here lately, because the Lieutenant-Governor only has another year, has an extension of his term of office, to go before His Excellency retires, I would like to see the next Lieutenant-Governor of Newfoundland a lady. MR. WARREN: Right on! Right on! MR. NEARY: Now, I mentioned this to somebody in tl~e administration one day. I mentioned this to somebody very high up in the government and they said, 'Well, where are you going to find a lady?' 5515

June 5, 1980, Tape 2lQO, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: Now, this is the crowd who were just up boasting about all the social reforms they are bringing in. I said to a minister on the government side of the House, 'If you have - we have no say in it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: The Premier has a say in it. And the ministers on that side of the House can have a say in it. But we cannot have any say in it, we are not consulted. The Premier would be consulted.

And I said to one of his ministers, I suggested to him, I said, 'I would like to see the next Lieutenant-Governor of Newfoundland a lady?' And the minister said to me, 'Well, where are you going to get on?' Now just imagine, 'Where are you going to get one?' I am sure that if you went in the galleries today you could find a dozen, a dozen, Mr. Speaker, we would be proud to have down in Government House. And I hope the administration will take my advice. I hope the President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall) will convey that idea, that suggestion to his colleague the Premier and see what we can do about making the next Lieutenant-Governor of this Province a woman. And then, Mr. Speaker, this same crowd now, who are going so fast with social reforms in this Province as we are told by the President of the Council who was speaking for the Premier, what about the Transition House for battered wives?

Only there a fe~ ' weeks ago I heard and saw on television the proceedings of a conference that was being held in this Province where the government was being condemned for ignoring a request - I forget what group it was now - condemned for ignoring a request - and I saw the Minister of Education sitting in the audience at that conference wh .en the government had 5516

June 5, l980, Tape 2100, Page 4 -- app MR. NEARY: refused - MR . HISCOCK : 'Steve'. . MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. HISCOCK: Family Planning may also have to close if they do not get money. MR. NEARY: That is right. The government refused to provide funding for this Transition House for battered wives and battered children. MR. HISCOCK: coming up now. MR. NEARY: Family Planning is And I am told, Mr. Speaker, that the Family Planning office will have to close very soon if they do not get same funding. So these are just three items that I fling out for the han. gentleman if he wants to piay politics with it. We have no intention of playing politics with it, but 5517

June 5, 1980 Tape 2101 EC - 1 MR. S. NEARY: if the hon. gentleman wants to play politics with it, I can give him a few more items. But I am not going to waste the time of the House doing that, Mr. Speaker, because we happen to think it is a good bill and we are going to support it. Our only hope, Mr. Speaker 1 is that the government will not take forever to draft the regulations. Because the last

section of this bill is very important:

Section 18 - "The Lieutenant-Governor in Council may make regulations for carrying out the purpose and provisicn of this Act." Some: times the wheels of government grind very slowly and the only advice that I can give to the people in the galleries who are interested in tlli~ bill is to make sure that the bill is not passed in this House, signed by His Excellency, the Lieutenant-Governor, and then brought downstairs and put on a shelf down there to gatiler dust. Because in order to make this bill function, you are going to need a set of regulations, and unless you keep after the Minister of Education (Ms L.

Verge), the spokesman or some ministers in the government, the regulations may never be made. So that is one area of concern. The rest of it is fairly straightforward except, Mr. Spe~~er, tilat I have grave doubts, myself, of ~~e wisdom of placing this bill directly under ~~e Premier's office. MR. E. HISCOCK: Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY: Not that I have anything against tile Premier - MR. E. HISCOCK: Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY: - but would it not be better to have the bill administered by another department, by anotiler minister in tile qovernment? MR. E. IUSCOCK: MR. S. NEARY: The z.tinister of Justice (.Mr.

G.ottenheimer). The Minister of - I was going to say Recreation, but that would not be suitable for this - the Minister of Justice prooably or the Minister of rehabilitation, because the Premier is a pretty busy rnan. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, yes. 5518

June 5, 1980 Tape 2101 EC - 2 MR. S • NEARY : I am quite serious in what I am saying. The Premier is a busy man, and he is so preoccupied with offshore oil because that is all he can think about - that you may not be able to get to see him when you want to see him. MR. W. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) • MR. E. HISCOCK: That is a very valid question. MR. S. NEARY: Oh, I see. That is a - I am talking about the bill, I am not playing politics. MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. G. WARREN : oilmyeli tis. MR. S. NEARY: (Inaudible). The Premier has I think it would have been wiser, Mr.

Speaker, to put this bill unde% a minister who can pay more attention to it. Because I hope I am proven to be wrong, but I have grave doubts. This will receive very low priority, I think, in the Premier's office. MR. G. WARREN: I would say in the next election we are going to have about five men on this side. MR. S. NEARY: And I would say in due course that you will see ;m amendment coming in to the bill to put it over in another department.

That does not lower the importance of it, all it does is to make sure that the bill is effective, that the recommendations in the bill and the clauses of the bill and the regulations are enforced. I mean, you can pass all the bills you like in the House of Assembly, but unless they are implemented they are absolutely useless. I am not quite sure if the funding that the hon. gentleman talked about is going to be satisfactory or not - $90,00j. ~ do not know, I have not seen the Budget. I do not if that will adequately take care of the situation or not, but I guess we will just have to wait and see.

There will have to be a year's experience. I presume that is only a tentative amount, that the next time the Budget is brought down in the House that there will probably be, and I hope there will be, an increase in this, because it is going to be very 5519

June 5, 1980 Tape 2101 EC '- 3 MR. s. NEARY: difficult for the Advisory Council to maintain an office. And I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that the Advisory Committee should be restricted to St. John • s, and unless you have a good budg!'\t so that you can travel across the Pr.ovince and open offices in other part$ of the Province, it will boil down that nine things out of ten that are done in this House usually end up downtown st. John's. And there are II\Ore places in Newfoundland than St.John's.

So I hope that the government will provide an adequate budget so that if · the Advisory Council is going to open offices that they will be able to open them in at least all the major centres throughout the Province and have staff in each centre in Newfoundland and Labrador. And that is going to be very elq)ensive, very costly. I doubt if there are enough goverrunent buildings around where the Advisory Council could go to the government and ask the goverruuent if they could use a public building or use one of the offices in a public building.

You would probably end up going out having to rent your own space and hiring your own -staff. 5520

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2102 EL - l MR. S. NEAPY: So I hope that the government will take a look at that aspect of it the next time they bring a budget into the House. I think that the ~udget is too little, myself. I would like to see it double that amount. I would like to see a copule of hundred thousand dollars allocated - MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) worth. MR. S. NEARY: Well, yes, the hen. gentleman is admitting that they need more than that. But at least a couple of hundred thousand dollars to start off in order to do an effective job. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is all I have to say about it.

We are going to support the Bill. We think it is a good Bill. We & wish the Advisory Council the best of luck and we look forward to getting the first report in the House of Assembly, not this Fall but in the new session of the House that will probably open next January or February. Sometime during the course of that session we should have the first report from the Advisory Council and I am sure that all members look forwaro to that day. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the Minister of Education. MS. L. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, it is not an unusual occurence for a member on this side of the House to speak following the hon. member for LaPoile (S.Neary) and to rebut remarks which he makes because a~ we all know the hon. member for LaPoile uses a great deal of the time of this House a..,d speaks at great length.

What is unusual, however, is for a member on this side of the House to rebut his remarks dealing with women's issues be­ cause in all the hours and hours of ti:r.e that the hon. member takes of the time of this House, this, I think, is the only occasion when I have ever heard him address his remarks to the needs and concerns of the women of the Province. 5521

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2102 EL- 2 SOME !'ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS. VERGE: He has from time to time taken is .sue with my position as he frequently calls me a freedom fighter or a women's libber but this - MR. NEARY: lips (inaudible) MS. VERGE: I also call the hon. minister sweet - is the first occasion that I have witnessed when the hon. melllber devoted his full speech to the topic of the needs of the women of the Province.

And I do find it rather peculiar that instead of addressing himself to the major fWidamental sociai and economic problems faced by women, that he would pick on the issue of the choice of the next Lieutenant-Governor. the women of the Province. .AN HON. MEMBER: MS. VERGE: MR. HISCOCK: MS. VERGE: TOkenism is not what is important to Hear, heart What women are concerned about are . basic - Why are you in the Cabinet? - widespread reforms to benefit and improve women, all women of all classes and socio-economic lewls throughout out Province. The choice of a 5522

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2102 EL - 3 MS. VERGE: Lieutenant-Governor ,as the hon. member well knows , is also a matter which rests with his friends and colleagues in Ottawa, the present Liberal Administration there, Mr. Trudeau. MS.

VERGE: Now, to tum my remarks to the matter at hand I would like to say that it is with a feeling of happiness and hope for the fucure that I speak in strong support of this Bill to establish an advisory council on the status of women and my pleasure now is heightened because of the presence in the Galleries of so many women representing a host of organizations who I think share my feelings.

I am confident that the Newfoundland and Labrador Advisory Council on the Status of Women will provide valuable guidance and input to our government which will result in policies and programs benefitting all the WOI!ten of our Province. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS. L. VERGE: And I would like to stress, Mr. Speaker, that it is a commitment of this government to improve the quality of life for all the women of the Province.

This means women of all ages, young women, middle-aged women, old women, women who are single, married, seperated, divorced, widowed, women who are mothers, who are housewives and homemakers, women in the work force, in our fishplants, who work as secretaries, teachers, as nursing assistants, as squid fishers, poor women, women on social assistance, riah women, women who are supported by their husbands, women in every corner and cove of the Province from Wabush to Nain to Point au Mal , Comer Brook, Woody Point, Triton, Grand Falls, Carters Cove, Xelligrews, St. John's 5523

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2103 NM - 1 MS. VERGE: a great A'Umber of individual women have contacted our government and called for the Provincial Advisory Council on the status of women . When the Cabinet met in Stephenville in Januar~ we had an excellent presentation from a woman who lived in a small community on the West Coast calling for the Advisory Council on the status of women and I would like to quote from her brief. She described herself as a woman who is a wife of more tha~ twenty-six years and a mother of nine children, of which all but one have grown up and gone away.

She said, "During that special time in my life my one concern was to do the task I set out to do and do it well. I pride myself today in the belief that I did a good job. However, now that that phase of my life is over I am not content to sit and die, or wait for entrance into a senior citizens home, I want to take on a new role and feel my worth should be of some value out there in the world. The problem is that I do not know how or where to begin again. In my case it is not the unemployment situation that is the problem.

If there were ten jobs for each person in the Province I would still be unemployable because of being out of the work force for so long. " And she ends with a strong plea that an advisory council for women be established to identify the needs of women and take them to government. When Cabinet met in Corner Brook in February, we had another excellent presentation from a younger woman, a woman,I guess,of about my age, who works in a government office, who has acted in a labour union, who is a wife and mother of three school age children.

That woman concentrated her remarks on the special problems faced by the woman at home, the housewife and mother and she said in her brief and I quote, "Even though I am a woman in the work force I can empathize with the housewife. Many of my friends and relatives are in the same boat. I was there myself at one time until the economic situation 552t.

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2103 NM - 2 MS. VERGE: forced me to take a place in the work force to help my family live a better life.

This is not always a situation with a lot of women either, either through lack of education, lack of job creation, or they just want to stay home and raise their family first, put yourself in their shoes and empathize with them, feel their frustrations and maybe then you will start to move a few obstacles so they can look forward to a happy and healthier life:' I am not saying that this proposed advisory council on the status of women will solve all their problems, but at least it will be a start in the right direction.

In addition to these individuals who have spoken out about the need for a government agency dealing specifically with the concerns of women, there have been letters and requests from a number of organizations for this move. Many of these organizations are represented in the galleries here today. Many of them wrote tt.e Premier stating their support for this move. These groups include the Voluntary Status of Women Council in five centres of the Province, St.

John's, the Newfoundland Status of Women Council, Central Newfoundland, Corner Brook, Happy Valley-Goose Bay, and Labrador West, in addition the Newfoundland and Labrador Women's Institutes, this is a large network of women's associations in many communities around the Province, perhaps the largest women's organization in our Province.

The Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Labour,who made a presentation to Cabinet just this week, NAPE, the Newfoundland Association of Provincial Employees; the Newfoundland Teachers Association, of whose members approximately fifty-one per cent are women; the Association of Registered Nurses of Newfoundland; the Catholic Women's League; the Memorial University of Newfoundland Faculty Association; and the Canadian Federation of University Women. Mr.

Speaker, the commitment of this government t~ create programmes and policies to benefit women is one which will improve the situation for women not at the expense of anYOne else bu± 5525

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2104 ow - 1 MS. VERGE: to strengthen the whole society. The aims and objectives of women's organizations to improve the quality of life for women is often misunderstood. Many men often feel that somehow they are being threatened by this process. And I would like to emphatically state that that is not the case and that is not the attitude of this government. I would like to ask your in­ dulgence to quote from a poem which, I think, expresses the kind of approach taken by many of the women's groups and by this government in setting pp a Provincial Advisory Council for Women.

The poem is called, 'For Everv Woman' , and it says, 'For every woman who is tired of acting weak when she knows she is strong !There is a rna~ who is tired of appearinq strong when he feels vulnerable/ For every woman who is tired of acting dumb/There · is a man who is burdened with a constant expectation of knowing everythingi For ever~ woman who is tired of being called an emotional female/There is a man who is denied the right to weep and to be gentle( For every woman who is called unfeminine when she cornpetesjThere is a man for whom competition is the only way to prove his masculinity/ For every wcman who is tired of being a sex objectjTher~ is a man who must worry about his potentcy/ For every woman who feels tied down by her children/ Thereis a man who was denied the full pleasures of shared parenthood/ For every woman who is denied meaningful employment or equal payj There is a man who must bear full financial responsibility for another human being/ For every woman who was not taught the intricacies of an automobile/ Thereis a man who was not taught the satisfactions of cooking/ For every woman who takes a step toward her own liberation/ There is a man who finds the way to freedom has been made a little easier. 5526

June 5, 1980 Tape No . 2104 Dli - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS. VERGE: ~r. Speaker, some people may question why there is a need to establish an agency to look out to the particular concerns of women. They might argue that the needs of women are adequately addressed by the mechanisms now in place, the same as the rest of the population. Of course, government in the past has moved to set up agencies and decision making bodies to focus attention on the needs of other special groups. These groups include the youth, the old people , our senior citizens, native people, rural people and Northern people.

And I think there are many good reasons for taking this move for women. Women ,after all , constitute about 51 per cent of our population. And women as a group,regardless of their age, their marital status, their occupation, their lifestyles, their place of residence, women as a group do have distinctive character­ istics of special needs and concerns common to the group. These issues involve the economy.xany economic issues revolves around women's place in the work force.

Several of these points were addressed in the brief given to government this week by the Federation of Labour and they are illustrated in a recent release from the Federal Minister of Employment, the hon. Lloyd Axworthy who said that although one out of every two women now has a paid job, the jobs held by a significant proportion of women continue to have lower wage levels,inferior working conditions and fewer opportunities for advancement than those held by men. Occupational segregation on the basis of sex has changed little over the past decade.

Canadian statistics indicate that 62 per cent of women work in occupations in the sales, clerical and service categories. 5527

June S, 1980 Tape No. 2104 D\v - 3 MS. VERGE: Occupational segregation is a major obstacle to the achievement of full equality in the work place. social issues. Other concerns relate. to The fact is that single mothers, 5528

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2105 SD - 1 MS. L. VERGE: DOther led single parent families and widows are among our most financially deprived people. Statistics show that today in canada the poorest group of people are elderly women many of whom are widows. Women by virtue of their traditional role as the primary care giver to children have a special interest in meeting the needs of children in seeing that there is adequate provision for the care and education of pre-school and young children.

Kamen have many special concerns in the area of education which I, in my department, am trying to meet. .!l.nd in addition to being a special group constituting 51 per cent of the population with destincitive charactist±cs and special concerns and needs 1 there is an added reason for creating a special government agency to look out to these matters and that is the virtual absence of women from the House of Assembly and from senior ~cision making and policy making positions in government.

And this, of course, is not unique to our Province, it is a worldwide phenomenon so that mechanisms are not already in place to ensure that these special needs and ooncerns are dealt with with the appropriate degree of awareness and sensitivity. Mr. Speaker, I am confident that the structure for the l\dvisory council set out in this bill is an excellent one, In choosing the mcdel a great deal of care was taken.

The l\dvisory Councils which exist elsewhere in Canada, the Canadian Advisory Council and the Status of Women, which was established by the federal government a number of years ago and the Advisory Councils in a couple of the other Provinces, particularly New Br11nswick and Nova Scotia, were studied and the best features of those other councils were incorporated in this bill. Mr. Speaker, contrary to the remarks of the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary), I believe that it is extremely important and necessary that this Advisory Council report 'to the Premier.

The Advisory Council, after all, will be examining a wide range of economic, social and cultural issues, issues which do not fall within the limits of any one government department ,which cross departmental boundaries and which can most appropriately be co:mmunicated to government through the Premier. In closing, Mr. Speaker, it is my belief 5529

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2105 SD - 2 MS. L. VERGE: that this establishment of a Newfoundland and Labrador Advisory Council on the Status of Women indicates the progressive visionary approach of this administration and government in meeting the social and economic needs of all of our people. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : MR. D. JAMIESON : Hear, hear. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, it is not my intention to dwell at any great length on this I!IQSt important measure other than to re-affi":r::m what has been s.U.d alz:eady and that is that we on this side of the House are completely supportive of the principles of this bill. Some reservations have been expressed and 1 I suppose, will continue to be expressed by members of the House of all persuasions and members of the public because this is not the kind of measure that one ean introduce and cover everythi~q at the -same time.

I think it is a learning experience to some extent and perhaps I might be forgiven for reminding members of the House that I have had a great many years in which I am pleased to say that my support for this kind of activity, this kind of legislation has been manifest and where I have been able to do a fair amount. 5530

June 5,1980 Tape No. 2106 AH-1 MR. JAMIESON: I simply want to say that I think an awful lot is going to depend,in the formative period and,indeed, even further down the road 1on the experience that is gained and upon the calibre of people who are appointed and upon the receptivity of the government to the various proposals that are put forward. I can sa~ again with a good deal of experience,that the most impo=tant element in here is to ensure the independence of this particular organization.

If it merely becomes an offshoot or,as it were,an arm of the government,however far removed that may be,then I do not believe that it will function anything like as well as it ought. I say that out of my recollections of what happened and what is happening and the changes that have become necessary with the national equivalent of this particular body.

And there are many, many difficulties that lie ahead but that does not detract at all from the principle of having a group of this kind to ~hom various women's groups throughout Newfoundland and individual women can make representations in the expectation that something positive will be done. I have no hesitation at all in saying that it is an historic step forward to get a group of this kind established,at least to get it established on paper.

But this first few months and the first year are really going to be most important,otherwise we may well find twelve months from now, ten months from now that members of the group feel frustrated, feel that they are not really getting to the nub of the matter, are not being listened to in the way in which they ought to be listened to or perhaps, indeed,that they are being•influenced or sought to be influenced in ways that they do not particularly like.

I do not say that by casting aspersions on anyone but it is the very nature of this kind of organization as,by the way , it was when we were discussing the Art's Council, I think it was recently, that all of these bodies, the most important thing about them is the wide representation that is contained in the membership of the group, that it is not an elitist movement, that it is not a regionally confined representation and that it is also one 5531

June 5,1980 Tape No. 2106 AH-2 MR. JAMIESON: which can feel totally free to act free from what might be described as the big brother, if you want to call it that, of government and the like because one has to remember that a substantial amount of what this organization will be looking at will be, in fact,the actions of government. I think that is one of the most important things that I learned over the years, that it is,in fact, to be able to perform in the role in a way of ombudswoman , if you like in this particular case, with regard to legislation.

So 1therefore,there will be times when the council is going to have to be in a position that it can say to the government and have the government receptive to the fact,that it does not particularly like certain proposals that are coming forward and also that the government is prepared and this side of the House is prepared,to support a legislation which is designed to enhance what the group is proposing and suggesting and what they have clearly , out of their findings , determined is in the best interest of the women of this Province. So, therefore , Mr.

Speaker, I am most pleased that we have managed to rearch this point in development and that during this Session of the House we have been able to get ~his legislation through second reading today and I would hope through all phases before we rise for the Summer. Thank you. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! M.~. SPEAKER (BAIRD): If the han. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) speaks now he will close the debate. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the han. Leader of the Opposition for his remarks that were made.

I would point out that it certainly is not the intention of this government ,in setting up the Advisory Council and leading in this legislation to attempt, and I underline the word attempt because that is all it would be because it would not succeed,but they have no desire of even attempting to make this Advisory Council an arm of the government. And as to his 5532

June 5, 1980, Tape 2107, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: observations, well taken as they are, to the effect that he had hoped that this would not become a regional body, it is not the intention, it is the intention that this be representative of women throughout Newfoundland. Indeed, under

section 6 of the bill itself, there is a provision here that meetings of the advisory council may be held anywhere in the Province. And it is certainly the intention - you do not find that in bills of this nature but by expressing it this way the government is giving its desire and its intent that, indeed, these meetings would be held in all parts of the Province from time to time. So this would, I think, tend to derogate from any possibility of it becoming regionally located.

I cannot add too much more to the words that the hon. the Minister of Education {Ms.Verge), the eloquent words that she made in her presentation with respect to this matter. I will address myself to a few of the observations though made by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary).Asthe hon. the member for LaPoile would anticipate, I cannot resist the temptation so to do. MR. JAMIESON: Try. Try. MR. NEARY: You are familiar with the whole (inaudible) you know. MR. MARSHALL: I realize that, Mr.

Speaker, but I always welcome the views of the hon. the member for LaPoile whether they be in Committee or third reading. So I am just responding, I hope not in kind, but I am just slightly responding, as I say. He said the only reason why this bill was being brought in was because of a lobby from various groups of women in the Province. Now, the first thing I would 5533

June 5, 1980, Tape 2107, Page 2 -- apb MR. ?-1ARSHALL: say to that is that we do not deny that we listened to all groups of women in this Province as well as all groups in this Province and this is indicative, Mr. Speaker, of our - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL : You know, we are very proud, as a matter of fact, of that fact and I would ask the hon. the member for LaPoile - and I cannot resist this - who spent a number of years in government some years ago, what excuse the hon. member had and his administration of that period of time, for obviously not listening to the women of Newfoundland? MR.

NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: answer it any - MR. HISCOCK: revolution. MR. MARSHALL: Can I answer that now? No. the hon. m~~ber can (inaudible) social Well, I mean, if the hon. member wishes to utter two or three words I would not mind, but I have no intention of giving away the floor for the hon. member to deliver a dialogue. The other thing, Mr. Speaker, as well -you talk about a lobby. Look, let me say that this government has enacted legislation here and in effect, I suppose, if you wanted to picture it so, it very much welcomes a lobby. It has enacted a council and it hopes that the council will lobby.

The whole purpose of the council itself, or one of the main purposes of the council is so th.c.t the government can receive representation, so that they will make representations, so that they will bring the interest of the wbmen of Newfoundland to the government. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, this is one of the main reasons why the bill is here, it establishes the for.mal framework for this Province and for this purpose. 5534

June 5, l980, Tape 2107, Page 3 -- apb MR . ~J\RSHALL: And this government has not been shy, Mr. Speaker, to receive in an open manner, the open government that it is, a lobby- if the hon. genteman wishes to call it a lobby he may call it a lobby - the views, the representations of the women of Newfoundland as well as all citizens of Newfoundland.

And we are quite happy to be able to enshrine this in legislation to ensure that in the unlikely event, in years to come, that some other members form the government in the reasonable future, that this is enshrined as a part of the legislation, the law of this land and even though the hon. gentlemen, whomever they may be whofacn the government,may not wish to listen, there will be this particular council set up so that they will have to listen, and it will be formalized.

So, in fact, if the hon. gentleman wants to talk about lobby, we are very proud of the fact that we listen to lobbies, we listen to representations, we listen to all people in the Province and that is one of the re .asons why this administration has got the reputation it has of an open government, not afraid to face the public, not afraid to listen to their views and, hopefully, heeding of their views themselves. SOME HON. MEMaERS: Hear, hear! 5535

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2108 GH-l MR. MARSHALL: The han. gentleman on the other side indicated - he wondered about the wisdom of putting this under the Office of the Premier. The hon. the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) has given a very appropriate reason and good reasons for this, but I would also add that the fact that it is being put under the Office of the Premier means that it is being put under the office of the First Minister of this Province and is indicative of the priority which this government places upon this Advisory Council.

It is to ensure that the First Minister of this Province - that the r~presentatives of women in Newfoundland have an opportunity to get directly to, a direct voice, the First Minister of this Province to assure that other ministers, operating other areas, that they will not get the opportunity to hear and not be heard, as it is, by the First Minister. So, it gives a direct pipeline to the most important ministry, to the most important office in the Province, and we make no apology for that, Mr. Speaker, that is the purpose of the bill itself. AN HON. MEMBER: Unaudible). MR.

MARSHALL: And may I say also - and the hen. gentleman - I should not, really. I do not want to engage with the hon. gentleman who is - MR. G.FL:IGH'l.': (Inaudible). MR. MARSHALL: - hon. gentlemen who are real gentlemen, I do not want to. I might end up disgracing myself. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in closing can I say also - point out to the House that there was a rumour I had heard to the effect that the government - there is some legislation on the Order Paper - and I do not know where the rumour started, but the rumour started somewhere along the lines that we were going to put this off - I think it ¥aS probably engendered by, maybe, I would say, some people not in the Opposition but some people in opposition, few and all as they may be - that we were going to put this off to the Fall session and, of course, nothing could further from the truth. It was our intention to bri~g this in now.

We are now coming, 5536

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2108 GH-2 !·1R. !o!AR.S?.ALL: as I say, to the end or near, and it is dangerous for a Government House Leader to indicate as to when we may be coming nearer to the end of the session because nobody knows when the bills are considered appropriately. TP.e fact of the matter is we are coming nearer to the first part of the second session, nearer to the end, and the very fact that we have brought it in at this time and carried through our original intent is indicative, again, of the importance that we put on this particular measure. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, as I say, I make no apologies to the hon. gentlemen from having an open government, from enacting a measure such as this which formalizes and puts into law, gives legislative sanction to a council of people who have very legitimate interests who, in order for them to be able to assure that the.y will be able to cormnunicat.e these interests to the government, not only this government but in the decades ahead when this government has finished its job in resource development, has finished its job in social development, but to some government in the future, maybe in the year 2020.

Even tl>e grandchildren of the hon. mel!lbers will then have to listen to the views of the Council of Women. That will be because of the Tory administration, no thanks to the Liberal adminis-,. tration who never heeded them for the twenty-five years they were in i' '• power. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR •. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! On motion, a bill, "An Act To Provide For An Advisory Council On The Status Of Women", read a second t:i:me, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently ~y leave. (Bill No. 15) MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Order 36 to number 46. (Inaudible) the hon. Leader of tite Opposition in, just indicate the order of business. 5537

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2108 GH-3 MR. MARSHALL: We would hope to ca11 · the remaining Finance bills, which is the Increase of Certain Pensions, the Financial Administration Act and the Act to Amend Certain Taxation Statutes, and then, by leave of the House, we could, perhaps, go into Committee, clear those that we have in Committee, and if there is any time get back to second reading on the residual bills we have. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: (S~

s) DR. COLLINS: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order 36 you mean, do you not? )- 5538

June S, 1980 Tape 210 9 EC - l MR . W . M."J!SBALL : Did I not say Order 36? DR. J. COL .LI NS: You sa..j.d 38. t'.R . W . ~~HAiiL : My apologies, Mr. Speaker, I am c:orrec .ted by the Minister of Educatipn (Ms L. Verge) and the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins). Order 36. Bill No. 42. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting An Increase Of Certain Pensions," (Bill No. 42) • MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : Before I recOgnize the hon. the Minister of Finance, if I may, although it is not quite 5:00P.M., but rather than have to interrupt in a few minutes , I can inform the House now that I have not received notice of any matters for debate at 5: 30 P.M. whert a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House unless there is some further agreement. The hon. the President of the Council, . . MR. W. MARSHALL: I suggest, Mr. Speaker, in the interest of getting b\Uiiness 1 with leave of the House,that perhaps we could go to 6:00 P.M. today if that is the agreement. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition • .1-IR . D. JAMIESON : Yes, Mr. Speaker, we are in agreement with that and in the process of doing so, I think members should realize that certainly, the member for Torngat Mountain (Mr. G. Warren) and the m2ltlber for Port au Port (Mr. J. Hodder) both gave up what is to them a qUite illlportant part of the parliamentary process 1 that is the so-called Late Show, in order to accoDDIIOdate us, and I am grateful to them, as I am sure, members opposite are. SOME HON. MEMBE~: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: So it is agreed then that we will adjourn at 6:00 P.M. when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House. The hon. the Minister of Finance. 5539

June 5, 1980 Tape 2109 EC - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, when I had the honour and privilege of bringing in that document of great progressive action, the Budget Speech, earlier in this session, it was announced that 'All pensioners will receive an increase of at least a per cent effective April lst and as well, other pensioners who were receiving quite small pensions from previous years' - from years long-time gone would get extra increases. And, Mr.

Speaker, this bill - I will not speak long on this because there is really, I suppose, not t.oo much to say about it - but this bill just puts into effect those provisions in the Budget. The first clause brings in the 8 per cent increase for all pensioners and the second part of the second clause brings in the other increases. So there will be two increases for those receiving pensions in the period from 1961 to 1970.

They will get the~ per cent and then on a progressive basis , going back over the years,they will get on top of that, increasing amounts, so that a pensioner who was receiving his pension on or before December 31, 196] will in actual fact get an 18 per cent increase in pension, and for the calendar year, l972,will get 9 per cent in addition to the a per cent - 17 per cent, and so on and so forth so that when one comes up to the calendar year, l970 1 that such a pensioner will receive 8 per cent plus 1 per cent, in other words, 9 per cent, and then from 1971 onward everyone will receive 8 per cent increase in pensions.

There is in addition to that, provisions there so that the increase in pensions will not go below a minimum amount and then the amount of a pension that anyone can receive will also have a floor underneath it, will not be able to go below a minimum amount. Mr. Speaker, I have great pleasure in ~roving second reading. On 100tion, a bill, "An Act Respecting An Increase Of Certain Pensions," Bill No. 42, read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the Whole House presently by leave. 5540

June 5, 1980 ape 21 09 EC - 3 MR. W. MARSHALL : Orde :: 37. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act, 1973," (Bill No. 49). MR. SPEAKER (Sil111l1S): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, hon. members will remember that in the first Budget of this administration, brouc;tht in last year, it was indicated that government intended to pay interest on o'li'erdue accounts from those supplying services and goods to govermrtent. And it was discovered in trying to implement that intention that in actual fact,

Section 30 of the Financial Administration Act restrains 5541

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2110 IB-1 OR . COLL INS: government from doing it. There was a provision in there whereby government could only pay out the amounts of money actually contained in a contract. In other words, we could not pay out any extra 1 '.tie were constrained from doing so. So this amendment,in a:ctu;U fact, recognizes that fact and corrects it so that we are allowed to pay out monies out of the consolidated fund not only for goods and services received, not only the contract price but in addition to that any interest that may be due because of late payment of an invoice. MR.

JAMIESON: So (inaudible) better on late payments now than you \'lere? DR. COLLINS: Very much better. In the past six months we have undertaken almost, you might say, a campaign to correct this. Some of the difficulties there were these: For instance,there were agencies of government~ for instance, say, take the vocational schools; they would get in certain supplies,say, during the Summer and then they would get billed early in the new training year.

Well,they would have such a load of work put on them getting their programmes into effect that the actual processing of the invoices they would receive wauld just get pushed on the back burner and sometimes we would not receive these invoices for payment as much as nine months later. Quite often these got very much behind times. Now,we have instituted measures in the departments of government so that invoices are processed much more quickly and we are attempting to get the agencies of government to do the same thing. It is not as easy to get the agencies because we do not have the same hold over them.

But we are making as many efforts as we can to do that. MR. STRILING: DR. COLLINS: Are you going to make it retroactive? It is, yes. It will come into force as of when it was intended to come into force, that is the first of April, 1979. This will be retroactive - MR. STIRLING: April, 1979, retroactive for a full year. DR. COLLINS: Yes that is right. 5542

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2110 IB-2 MR. SPEAKER (BAIRD): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I want to ask the minister one question about how did McConnells Advertising receive interest on money that was owed by the Newfoundland Government and then later they had to refund the amount of interest that was paid on the outstanding debt? How did that happen? Could the han. gentleman give us an explanation of that? I think the hon. gentleman is aware of it. It has been in the - we received a letter recently saying that the money had been refunded. But how did it happen in the first place? DR. COLLINS: MR.

NEARY: ~fuat was the question again? McConnells Advertising that had this contract with the Newfoundland Government received interest on money, you know, that they were owed from the Public Treasury. And later they had to refund that interest because there was no authority for paying interest on it. Nobody else in Newfoundland - we are doing it now for the first time - but nobody else received interest on outstanding debts except McConnells. Could the han. gentleman tell us how that happened? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): If the hon. minister speaks now he will close the debate. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I will have to get an answer for the hen. member on that. I can speculate as to what happened but, you know, I presume that going on the announced intention of government that it was done and then· it '"'as found that the authority was not there when the action was given a closer look. But I am just speculating on that. In the Committee stage I will have the information, the details MR. NEARY: Okay.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act, 1973", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 49) Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend Certain Taxation Statutes". (Bill No. 53). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, what this bill does when it becomes

an act is to actually define more fully what a return is. And the present definition just speaks of return and it is related to the 5543

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2110 IB-3 DR. COLLINS: confidentiality of information that comes to goverrunent in regard to the collection of Retail Sales Tax And the confidentiality 5544

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2111 GH-1 DR. COLLINS: relates to return and this defines just what return is because there was some doubt as to what amount of information was intended to be kept confidential in the interests of the taxpayer. It just defines return for the various acts that would be involved, the Gasoline Tax Act, the Retail Sales Tax Act, the Insurance Companies Act, the Insurance Premiums Tax Act, the Tobacco Tax Act. So, that is the purpose of this amendment. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Further debate, the hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR.

STIRLING: Now, it is just a question and he can continue on as if he were on the floor if ~ou have no objections, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No, I will take it as the hon. member for Bonavista North now speaking in the debate. MR. STIRLING: Did this come up as a result of the questions put to the Deputy Minister of Finance in the Public Accounts Committee when the Public Accounts Committee was looking for some information and the Deputy Minister indicated that he felt he could not release that information to the Public Accounts Committee?

Is the purpose now to block that loophole so that the Public Accounts Committee will not able to get that information? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. If the hon. minister speaks now, he will close the debate. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is quite correct. It did come up as a result of the hearings in the Public Accounts Committee, What could be released because of the constraints in the act in regard to confidentiality, that issue came up. An opinion was sought from the Department of Justice as to exactly what had to be held confidential because of the provisions of the act.

As a result of going to Justice to find that out, it was determined by the Department of Justice that the definition of return was imprecise, and this is what makes it (inaudible). 5545

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2lll GH-2 DR. COLLINS: It is not a case of blocking it . It is just determining more precisely what the act intends shauld be . held confidential. It is not blocking it. It is just that we had to go to Justice to find out what return meant, and now we are actually, on the basis of what Justice advises, we are now putting that into written form. MR. STIRLING: Will you permit a question? DR. COLLINS: Certainly, certainly. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The han. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Will you permit a question? DR. COLLINS: Certainly. MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister yields. MR.

STIRLING: Is you advice now that, once this amendment has been implemented, the department can refuse the information which was requested by the Public Accounts Committee? Is that the effect of the advice, that as a result of putting through this amendment you will be able to refuse the information requested by the Public Accounts Committee? DR. COLLINS: No. All it does, and it says that, if information is obtained in confidence during the implementation of taxation, that information is considered just like a return is considered. And, of course, a return is a written thing.

So, there would be no more withholding of information, in other words, no more keeping confidential in the interests of the taxpayer anything more than is done now for returns. There is nothing new added here. It just, really, lays out more clearly what is supposed to be kept confidential. It is not an addition to it, it just defines it. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend Certain Taxation Statutes", read a second time, oraered referre-:: to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 53) MR. MARSHALL: Bill No. 35. MR. JAMIESON: I would like to now order 31 Bill No. 35? 5546

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2lll On motion, second reading of a bill , "An Act To Amend The Education (_Teac}lers ' Pensionsl Act" . (Bill No. 35) GH-3 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the President of the Council. Mr. Spe~, this is purely and simply

an act which. allows the reciprocal carrying over of pensions of teachers from one province to this Province. Before, under the Education Teac!lers' Pension Act, yau could only carry over where teachers had been e,mployed by the Government of Canada, say, up in the NOrthwest Territories or wherever it may be. Now, what this act does is al.lows a teacher to transfer into Newfoundland and, at the same time, carry over his pension benefits fro= another province - his or her.

On motion, a hill, "An Act To Amend The Education (.Teac;hers' Pensions) Act", read a se=nd time, ordered referred to a Committe .e of the Whole House presently by leave. (BLll No. 35) MR. MARSHALL: I move that the House resolve itsel.f into Committee of the Whole to consider said bills. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on said bil.ls, Mr. Speaker left the Chai .r. 5547

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2112 IB-1 MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT): Order, please! Bill No. 7. A bill, "An Act To Amend The District Count Act, 1976". (Bill No. 7) Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. MR. MARSHALL: Order 3, Bill No. 30. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Bill No. 30. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: I am going to take advantage of this bill to ask a question if I may of the Minister of Fisheries in an attempt to be helpful.

This bill relates to Burgee Fish Industries and while perhaps what I have to say is not completely relevant to the first clause, is the minister aware that the DREE agreement, for instance, with regard to Burgee Fish Industrie~ requires National Sea to maintain a very specific through-put in that particular plant?

And if he is not I would suggest to him that he take a look because when the funds were granted to Burgee Fish Industries and/or National Sea - I am not exactly sure - one of the requirements which was undertaken by Nationa~ Sea was that there would be a - and it is spelled out I believe - a reasonable through-put in that plant enough, for instance, to provide, say, for a forty hour week. I may be making up the figures.

But I just wanted to call the minister's attention to this, . on the grounds that if we are talking about landings in Newfoundland there is,in addition to whatever else may be in the package,in the DREE agreement there is a requirement that they keep that plant going at a particular level. I just pass it on. A bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Amending Agreement Entered Into Between The Government And Burgee Fish Industries Limited And Others". (Bill No. 30) Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. MR. MARSHALL: Order 4, Bill No. 34. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order, please: Bill No. 34. 5548

June 5, 1980 Tape No. 2112 IB-2 A bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Service (Pensions) Act". (Bill No. 34) Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without am