LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 29 July, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Hon. J. Cowan: Committee come to order. The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I have some questions about the social studies curricu lum. I had asked a person who is teaching social studies how they felt about the curriculum and they mentioned the one thing they were doing dif ferently with it was how it moves from 18 00's up to say present, back and forth in the different categories they're dealing with.

He said by and large, they were finding that any teachers he was talking to in other divisions, they preferred to teach it in a chronological order because the students didn't get confused that way. Has that been one of the things where there's been feedback in that curriculum? MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: The Min ister of Educa tion. HON. J. STORIE: I'm told by staff we haven't had that specific comment directed to us by teachers. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What are the objectives of this particular curriculum and to what extent are the objectives being met? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, one of the staff is getting that information. If you have another question, we can just continue. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Again, when I checked with St. James on this particular curriculum, they ind icated they have a tightly structured curriculum. They felt when it was del ivered from the department, if they didn't structure it more tightly - and I mentioned this in connection with the langua ge arts - they really felt there wasn't the continuity from school to school or even would be from division to division.

How do you get around that when you have a curriculum that leaves a lot up to the discretion of the teachers about what is being taught? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, there is a greater degree of flexibility in the early grades, the K-4 years and part of that, of course, is because part of the focus in the social studies program is the commun ity, which obviously will represent a different location for all children in the comparison between communities and there is some flexibility left to the early years teachers to define what communi ties and the scope of the study of those communities. lt gets increasingly more structured as you move through the system and into the 8-12 , 9-12 years, when you have programs like "Canada Today," a Canadian studies course; and "North America, a Geographic Perspect ive;" and "Cana da, a Social and Political History" in Grade 11; and "World Issues," which is an optional course in the 300 level.

MRS. G. HAMMOND: Actually , it was in the junior and high school curriculum that they were dealing with, that they were stucturally more tightened. HON. J. STORIE: The content generally, in the 5-8 span, would be "Life in Canada Today," "Life in Canada's Past", which is a Grade 6 social studies program. Grade 7 is "Spaceship Earth;" Grade 8 is "People Through the Ages." As you can see from the titles, there is a bit of moving around, that we're talking about civilization, the development of civilization, early civili zation. We're talkin g ab out Canada's past, Canada's present.

I guess one could argue about the sequenc e, particularly dealing with Canada specifical ly, in Grades 5 and 6, about whether one should precede the other. The only other comment is that the 7 through 12 is specific; about 75 percent of the course content, the curriculum content is fairly specific and there is some fle xibilit y, 25 percent up to the teacher and the admin istration in terms of the emphasis that's placed on specific materials. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are you ready to come back with the goals? If not, I'll ask another question. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, continue. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I'll go on to the maths curriculum. I wonder if the Minis ter could ind icate how much of the maths curriculum is taught as a core - meaning everyone no matter if they're at the 00 - is being taught as a core subject and how they're teaching it? If they are in semester, do they get so much in one? HON. J. STORIE: Is that true in high school? MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'm talking of high school. HON. J. STORIE: I understand about 60 percent is core and that wouldn't matter how the course was structured, whether it was a full year, semester, trimester. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Here again - I feel as though I'm repeating myself all over the place - but here again the same comment was made - that the way it's structured and they hadn't given me 60 percent; I hadn't realized it probably would be that high -w as when it's common to all that it's far too easy for some and too difficult for others? HON. J. STORIE: I suppos e that's always the case in a classroo m, and it's very much up to the teacher to individualize within the classroom setting to ensure that while everyone receives the core, that everyone is also 2405

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 challenged and it's not always easy. But I think the concept of individualing is one in the elementary K-9 system and is rather well established, and I think it's a good practice. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is that a new curricu lum, or is it the way they're dealing with it, or how long has it been that way? HON. J. STORIE: The maths curriculum is relatively new. lt was piloted four years ago and it has been in effect for appoxima tely three years. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What efforts are being made in the early years to encourage girls to take maths through high school? HON. J.

STORIE: There are a numb er of specific things that have been done over the past few years.

We have been providing some in-service opportunities and have also prepared a videotape, I understand, for use in in­ servicing and for use by career counsellors in our high schools to encourage female students to continue with the Math-Science programs, I guess. lt is a concern; it's been raised by other professional staff within the system and I guess there are a lot of explanations for it, but I think it's something that we cannot deal with alone within the system, that there's an attitudinal, societal influence being brought to bear there which is difficult to deal with and it's been in the system for a long time and despite the best efforts of, I think, teachers and counsellors, it's difficult to overcome.

The best data that we have shows that approximately 42 percent of students in selective math classes were girls and that, again, going by other comparisons with other jurisdictions, we're doing quite well at the high school level.

I expressed concern some time ago about the relationship between what is happening at our high schools where I think we are doing a better job and what happens at un iversities where - and this goes for male and female students - if you go to graduation exercises at univ ersities, you'll find there has been a decrease and it's not just in Manitoba; it's across North America, across Canada, where jurisdictions are bemoaning the fact that there are fewer people registering in the hard sciences.

Apparently there has been in fact an increase of a couple of percent a year over the last few years in females in maths and science. Clearly modest, but there has been some improvement. I don't know if that's a reflection of the work that the department's been doing or it's the culmination of a lot of changes that have been going on generally in society about the attitudes toward women and math and science endeavours. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are the textbooks reflecting women in differing trades and in non-traditional female jobs? I'm referring to all the curriculum. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, staff inform me that all of the curricu lum, K-9, have been reviewed for sex stereotyping over the last two years and that any bias, pictorial or otherwise, has been removed or an attempt 2406 has been made to remove any. To the extent that there are any stereotypes which come through and are overpowe ring, they are noted so that the teach ing staff is aware and can make app ropria te reference, I suppo se, to the ima ges or the lang uage where necessary. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I welcome that. To deal with science, Mr. Chairman, has the Minis ter read Mr. Macek 's report? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, I have. MRS.

G. HAMMOND: Have the recommendations that the former Min ister accepted as good advice been put into place? HON. J. STORIE: I can't say that all of the suggestions that Mr. Macek made have been impl emented. I think there were some legitimate concerns raised. I have referenced those throughout my comments over the course of the Estima tes when referring to the science curriculum and the need to continue to strengthen the curriculum to make sure that it is attractive and is meeting the needs. The curriculum has been reviewed this spring as part of the regular ongoing curriculum assessment.

The science curriculum was tested. If there are further modifications necessary. I expect that would be reflected in the comments by the curriculum review commit tees and there will be additional changes. MRS. G. HAMMOND: This is one of Mr. Macek's recommendations that he made. Has the Minis ter conside red second ing someone from the Faculty of Science to review the science curriculum, or has that sort of thing already been done? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairp erson, the steering commit tees in each of the curriculum areas have representatives from the un iversity community on them, as well as teachers and representatives from other interest groups. You know, it's as broadly based a group with as broad a range of experience as we can pull together.

There are no lim itations to that group; again, representatives from the communi ty, from Manitoba Education, from Manitoba Education, from the teachers in the speciality area group, one from the specialty area group involved, as well as at least two people from the un iversities and colleges, and one person from the relevant ind ustry or relating to the appl ication of that particular

section in the curricu lum. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Just a broad question here. Are there parents represented on the review comm ittees, not just science, but any of the review comm ittees? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, both on the Curriculum Policy Review Council and on the steering commit tees. There are parent representatives from home and school associations, the Manitoba Parent Teacher Federation. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Considering the amount of work that Mr. Macek put into his brief, I was wondering if the Mi nister had considered asking him to sit on the

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 Curriculum Review Commi ttee or some curriculum comm ittee dealing with science? He was shown a spectacular, I think, interest in the subject and has come up with some very good rec ommendations and is someone that may be worthwhile to have sitting on that commit tee. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I believe Mr. Macek actually wrote and ind icated that he would be willing to sit on the High School Review Commi ttee. I believe I ind icated that I appr eciated the offer and certainly I agree with you, he has done a herculean job in preparing material and presenting a perspective.

I would certainly take the suggestion that either the Cu rriculum Policy Review Council or the steering com mittees could certainly invite or use his talents at some point in a more in-depth review of particularly the science curriculum at the high school level, or perhaps even moving to the junior high level, or the middle years, I should say. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I just have one more question on that. Aside from Mr.

Macek, who has, as you have said, shown a great deal of init iative doing this, I feel that there are other parents in the community who have a certain expertise in different areas that are not necessarily school professionals. I think it would be very worthwhile to sort of comb the commun ities and put one or two on the curricu lum. I think parents in general would feel a little bit more relieved if they knew that there was someone who was there who was not, say, from the MTS or the department and yet without putting someone on that possibly had no knowledge of the area at all.

I wonder if the Min ister would take that into consideration and get out into the community a bit because I think, today, there are so many people who have done so much work and could offer a lot. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, I do take that seriously and I can indicate, as I have, certainly there are parents and non-educators on both the curriculum pol icy review council and on the steering committees. In the case of the Curriculum Policy Review Council, there are at least five potentially out of a total of 15 who would be non-teachers, or could be non-teachers.

The same is true of the steering commi ttee where there's one from the indus try or the applied field, one from the home and school association, a trustee which is usually a non-educa tor, as well as a numb er of teachers and people from staff. So there is that opportun ity, and I recognize that we hold no stranglehold on expertise either in the department or in the un iversity necessari ly, that there is all kinds of expertise amongst our parents, they are a resource and we do try and recognize that and use them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to continue some questions with respect to the Macek Report, but before I do that, I'd just like to say that listening to the answers the Min ister has been giving all afternoon, it is clear the Min ister is trying to, I don't know, deli berately or perhaps because he's just new in the department or has new responsibil ity for that department, it appears the Minis ter is evading the issues and evading addressing them directly, giving flowery answers which really mean nothing.

I'm going to ask the Min ister for some specific answers and I hope he can screw up his courage and perhaps accept some of the ideas that have been presented as perhaps good ideas. I would simply point to the Macek Report as one that an individual has submitted as a concerned parent to the Department of Education, and from the time this report was first subm itted to the department to this present time, I would say there has been very little action on the part of the department - or the former Mi nister in this one - in impl ementing some of the concrete proposals that were put forth.

If one examines the example of a science curriculum that is mentioned in this report and takes a look at some of the recommendations that are made, one would have to say the report is right on and the fact the science curriculum is in dire need of revamping and upgrading. I would like to ask the Min ister, first of all, could he describe what corrective measures have been taken to date by his department to correct the faults, to correct some of the errors and impr ove some of the areas that are mentioned by the Macek Report? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I guess we would all like to live in the simple kind of world the Member for Roblin- Russell lives in. Unfortuna tely, we don't. He seems to be in that world by himself. I don't know who he has been listening to over the last number of hours. I have not attempted to whitewash any of the issues. I believe I ack nowledged where there are problems and where we need to make improvement. I believe I've also indicated impr ovements are being made; that things have changed over the last few years. I've tried to address it in the area of curriculum development.

I've talked about some of the initiatives of the past couple of years and some of the things we're working on. I've indica ted yes, Mr. Macek has presented a brief. lt's not as if attention hasn't been paid to his presentation. Meetings have been held numerous times, the concerns have been discussed and I've ind icated here there are other experts or people who perceive themselves to be qualif ied to comment on science curriculum who have said no, things do appear to be alright.

They're not perfect but the science curriculum is appropriate. lt is not out of step with the learning stages of children in Manitoba and while it would be nice to impose another system that one might believe would work, the system we have appears to be working. lt's not without its faults. We are attempting to make impr ovements. The member wanted to know what has been going on through the department. I have mentioned in­ servicing. I have mentioned the importance of the high school review in terms of establishing what we expect from our science curric ulum, our science courses in high school.

What we want to establish is a core curriculum both within the science and math areas and langua ge arts area. So it's not as if some of the concerns, the legitimate concerns that have been raised by Mr. Macek and 2407

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 others are not being dealt with, are not taken seriously . lt's simply, in some cases, a legitimate difference of opinion about what merits action and what doesn't; and in other cases it's a matter of taking the time to address the concerns in a logical and consistent way and not be stampeded into precipitous action. MR. L. DERKACH: Stampeded. Well, it's the Mi nister who is living in a simple world, I think, all of his own. I think the statement he made refers to himself only . I'd like to ask him again specifically about the Macek Report, specifically about the science curric ulum.

What specific measures has he and his department taken to eliminate some of the faults to correct some of the errors to improve some of the areas which were mentioned in the Macek Report? We're not talking about the curriculum in general, we're talking about the specific area that the Ma cek Report referred to. HON. J.

STORIE: I'm told there's three or four specific things: (1) , we have, as I've ind icated already, increased funding for in-servicing in science education; (2), we have added additional support in regional services for responding to information requests; (3), we've spent additional monies for developing and making available resource material for teachers of science and; (4), and also the department undertook a survey of the teaching skills of science teachers and the background of science teachers to determine whether there was any lacking in that respect.

If I can ind icate to the member that one of the areas we did find a weakness and one which has been referenced by other people is the lack of specific and related studies of science teachers across the province; that there is a need for improvement in the background, the academic qualif ications for some of our science teachers. That was a result of the survey that was done and we are moving to correct that in consultation with the Faculty of Education. MR. L.

DERKACH: The Mini ster has ind icated that he has read the Macek Report and I would think that after reading the Macek Report, he has probably made himself aware of the science program that is referred to in the report. Does the Min ister agree that the Macek Report does add ress problems within the program, and does he agree that parts of the Macek Report should be adopted in terms of improving the program? HON. J. STORIE: I've ind icated that some of the concerns that were raised were legitimate. I believe that staff have met with Mr.

Macek and ind icated where there were efforts on behalf of the department being made. They also ind icated that some of the assumptions simply didn't fit into the current curriculum development procedu res, or the perceived utility of the same by other people involved in science, professors at the univers ity, etc. lt's one person's view of all of those issues and many of them may be relevant observations. There is, I guess, another opinion on many of the other issues that are raised. MR. L. DERKACH: Would the Min ister then table those recommenda tions that Mr.

Ma cek made which he feels are going to be incorporated? Would he also ind icate which of the reco mmendations the department rejects, and why they reject them? HON. J. STORIE: I believe Mr. Ma cek has a letter indi cating the position of the Department of Education. All I can tell you, I will certai nly try and get you some corroborating evidence, that our science curriculum is not substantially different and I suppose, therefore, not substantially better or worse than curriculums across this count ry. They follow a fairly consistent pattern. A couple of the essential underlying assumptions that Mr.

Macek makes is that num ber one, the science curriculum, as it exists in Manitoba, is not valid science. Again, there were a couple of specific reference materials that were discussed, but reco gnizing that the overall science curriculum is designed not to be an elitist sort of program, it is designed to be attractive to, and appropriate for, the age grade. MR. L. DERKACH: The Mi nister has not answered the question specifically . Perhaps the department did answer Mr .

Macek and explained to him specifically what areas the department was going to implement because the Min ister stated that there are some areas of Mr. Macek's report that are valid and that they are going to implement. Now, I want to know which those rec ommendations are that are going to be implemented, and I want to know which ones were rejected and for what reasons. Whether Mr. Ma cek received that information or not is not important to me.

I want to know, and I want to have a copy of the response from the Minis ter so that we know which areas the department is going to implement, and which ones were rejected and for what reason. HON. J. STORIE: I could give you a long answer and read this letter of November 18, 19 85 into the record. I think that if I provide it to you, it will simply give you an indi cation of the areas in which we have said yes, here is an area we're working on. If the member would prefer me to read it, I will certainly do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, do you want a copy of the letter or do you want copies for other members? MR.

L. DERKACH: Well, whatever. I think the Macek situation is an example of how frustrating it must be for an individual to present a concern to the department and to get a response from the department and from the Min ister to those concerns. We hear the Min ister talk about the importance of the participation of parents in discussing elements of the curriculum. I'm wondering whether the Mini ster has now changed the policy with respect to the acce ssibility of parents to the department and to himself, as Minister, in making the public concerns available. HON. J.

STORIE: Well, you know, to suggest that, it really does a - I shouldn't use that word - it's really an unfortunate reflection on the time and effort that a lot of staff and people in the department have spent on Mr. Macek's concern. The K- 12 Science Comm ittee met with Mr. Macek. The people in the department, the Dir ector of 2408

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 Curriculum Development, the Assistant Deputy Min ister, the Science Teachers' Association of Ma ni toba president have had app roxi mately six meeti ngs altogether with Mr. Macek, a couple of other meetings with the science consultants, a meeting with the Curriculum Policy Review Council, and innu merable phone calls. I hardly think that's neglect. The fact that an individual with a particular viewpoint was not successful in achieving all that he hoped to achie ve is a reflection of the fact that developing a science curriculum is not a simple matter.

If the member is suggesting that, on the word of an individual, he would adopt or change the curriculum to suit that individual, I would certainly hate to be a part of the system he was running. MR. L. DERKACH: Let me then use a specific example. The Minis ter can bafflegab if he wishes, but let me give you a specific example of . . . HON. J. STORIE: I thought that was pretty clear, Len. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Roblin-R ussell, in a parliamentary manne r, please. MR. L. DERKACH: Yes, in a parliamentary man ner, sir.

On April 8, 1985 the Honourable Maureen Hemphill ordered that her department would critically study the Macek Report. In Octobe r, Mr. Macek had not yet received any kind of written evaluation of his report after numerous calls. One of the reasons given was that the reply to the report was not in a proper form. After pressing this further, it was revealed that actually there wasn't an evaluation that existed at the time; it was all through conversation and dialogue.

This is the kind of frustration I'm talking about that parents and concerned people, who may not have the same view as the department, the kind of frustration that people run into. I'm wondering, is this Minis ter now going to be prepared to accept the views of parents in a more positive light with responses in a more timely fashion? HON. J. STORIE: I have indicated a num ber of meetings that have been held between Mr. Ma cek and representativ es of the department, phone calls. I don't think that's neglect. I have ind icated that some of the conc erns that Mr.

Macek raised have and will be add ressed and are being addressed. 1t isn't a simple matter, and I'm certa inly not about to change the curriculum, implement a one textbook or - what's the word for it? - a teacher-proof system on the basis of one person's analysis. I have ind icated that people from ind ustry, people from the university community obviously have differing views on that matter. I would also ind icate that parents have been involved in the development of science curriculum.

They also are concerned that science material be age-appropriate, that it not develop into a system where those with exceptional abili ties at an early age develop the abili ties of abstract thinking and so forth succeed and others fail. The science curri culum, as I' ve indi cated, is not dissimilar to science curriculums across the coun try. I believe that it is age-appropriate. I believe that it covers some of the fundamentals in science that chi ldren need to know, and that there is some need for improvement, particularly in the area of training teachers.

There is some need for a strengthening of the curriculum and making it more attractive to young people so that we have an increase in the numb er of students taking science and math and, I sup pose, that the High School Review will be determining at what appropriate level and appropriate time frame that science curriculum should occupy in the high school course. MR. L. DERKACH: Well, the former Min ister, along with the present Min ister, have concurred that Mr. Macek cert ainly does have some expertise in the area that he addressed.

I'm wondering whether this present Min ister is prepared to second the expertise of Mr. Macek on a science curriculum review commi ttee. HON. J. STORIE: Well, I have indi cated that he has offered his services in terms of the High School Review, and I indicated that I had many, many individuals and groups who approached me and would like to serve on that. I cer tainly would invite Mr. Macek to present his views to the High School Review Commit tee when they hold public hearings. I would also take under advisement the issue of whether Mr.

Macek could offer his services through presentations to the Steering Commit tee on Science Curriculum or in some other capacity. MR. L. DERKACH: That's very generous of the Mini ster, but he didn't answer the question I asked. With respect to the qual ifying criteria for the High School Review, now can the Minis ter first of all, before we get to that, tell me who is heading up the High School Review panel? HON. J. STORIE: I have indicated that I will be making announ cements within the next week on the composition of the committee and its terms of reference. MR. L.

DERKACH: Well, surely the Minis ter knows now who the person is who's heading up the review panel. I think he has known that for some time. HON. J. STORIE: I've indi cated when I will make the announ cement. MR. L. DERKACH: Well, can the Minis ter then tell us what are the qualifying criteria for the people who he's selecting on the comm ittee? Does he have criteria which he follo ws for people to qualify for the commi ttee, or are there in fact any qualifying criteria for those people? HON. J. STORIE: Well, I'm not sure whether the mem ber is now changing his position.

He ind icated only mome nts ago that he would not want all professionals, that he thought parental involvement would be appr opr iate. So I'm not sure what qual ifications he meant, other than an int erest in education, an interest in high school education, a reasonable, intelligent, thoughtful person, I think would be legitimate requirements for being a member of the com mittee. MR. L. DERKACH: No, I'm not referring to that at all, Mr. Min ister. I'm talking about the professional people 2409

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 who you are going to be sec onding or going to be appointing to that committee. I'm wondering whether these people are going to have a background in the high school education area, or are you in fact going to be getting people who have never worked in the high school area. I would like to know, the people who you are selecti ng, what their specific qualifications have to be in order to qualify for sitting on that commit tee. HON. J.

STORIE: We're talking about a broadly based committee to review the high school curricu lum, requiring expertise in many areas as well as sensitivity of the interests of parents, special interest groups, indu stry, post-seco ndary institutions. I can only tell you, as the member may be aware, that a number of organi zations with a long- stan ding in terest and involvement in education have been asked to submit names so, in all ins tances, I will not have control over who is finally appointed.

Some people have already been reco mmended by other organizations and groups, but I can assure the member that the people on the com mittee will be capable and will represent well, I guess, the multipli city of interests in Man itoba. MR. L. DERKACH: Are there going to be people on the commit tee, of those people who the Minister is going to be selecting, are they going to come from all parts of Manitoba, or is there going to be regional representation as well? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, we have dealt with some of the problems with respect to the size of the comm ittee, but I can assure the member that we will certainly be trying to make it representative and to have urban and rural and Northern representation on the comm ittee. MR. L. DERKACH: In terms of the consultation paper or document, who's going to be responsible for the creation of that consultation paper or process? HON. J. STORIE: Well, the commi ttee itself is going to meet and prepa re a consultation paper for distribution, and I've indica ted previously that it will be as broad as possible distribution for review. MR. L.

DERKACH: Well, because I feel that the High School Review is such an important process and it has to be, I feel, done correctly, is there going to be any in put from parents in developing the consultation paper? HON. J. STORIE: it's really unfortunate the Member for Roblin-Russell wasn't here earlier this afternoon, because all of these questions have been asked. The explanations have been provided.

But I do indicate and I take quite seriously the concern that parents be represented, and I can ind icate that, yes, there will be parents, not only parents whose other capacities are professional or representatives of other gr oups , but representatives of Paren t/Teacher Federations, as an example, and people with no affiliation other than interested mem bers of the public who are parents. MR. L.

DERKACH: Will that criteria then be made available to all concerned groups and individuals so that people who wish to make presentations before the commit tee will then have before them the criteria to help them stay within the parameters that the commit tee's going to be dealing with? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, I've ind icated that the terms of reference will be issued at the same time so that people will un derstand what the commit tee is about in general terms and, as well, that the consultation paper, after it's produced, will then provoke, I presume, additional comme nts from ind ividuals and parent gr oups, represented associations, etc., so that we can have a full and comple te dialogue on the issue.

I've ind icated as well that I intend to meet in all of the regions of the province, in as many locations as possible, with parents, students, teachers and school boards to develop a pol itical sensitivity to the issues that are being raised so that when the final report is issued, I will have some sensitivity to the overriding concerns for the issues that are being raised, apart from the specific presentations that are made to the High School Review Comm ittee.

I would like to add just one thing, that I too believe that this is an important opportunity for us to review and revise the scope of high school education in the province, and will be dealing with this as an important part of gearing up the system for the next decade, perhaps. MR. L.

DERKACH: lt is my hope that the High School Review panel will be more objective in dealing with presenta tions from pr ivate in di viduals and from concerned public and will, I guess, addr ess those concerns that the public make, in an open-minded fashion, knowing that there is a great deal of concern among parents - and even among teachers - with respect to the standard, the quality of education that is being offered: I guess we can pretend that Manitoba's education system is fine, but if we do that we are not really facing the truth because, no matter where you go and if you talk to educators and if you talk to parents, and I think we have seen in the last year parent groups get mobi lized and try to impress upon the powers that be that there is a problem with the quality of education in Manitoba and that we had better take a look at improving the qual ity.

The I. B. program, for example, is just another example that there is a need for improving the overall quality of education in our schools. Before I go to another topic, Mr. Chairman, my colleague has a question with respect to the Macek Report and before I go to another area, I was wondering if he would be allowed to ask that question. HON. J. STORIE: Before the Member for Morris asks the question, I would just ind icate that I recognize that there are problems within the system, but the member is indicating his general, overall consternation about the state of the system.

Earlier this afternoon, his colleague, the Member for Kirkfield Park, indicated that her childr en had gone through the public school system and said, yes, she thought they did receive a quality education. I don't know who the member - (I nterjection) - well, I believe, essentially, that's what the member said. 2410

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 Perhaps her colleague, the Member for Roblin-Russell, could check the record with respect to what was said. I want to ind icate that in the two-and-a-half months that I have been Min ister of Education, I have met with representative parent groups on many occasions and not once was the issue of quality of education raised. The question of parental involvement has been raised; all kinds of other questions, records questions and specific guidelines questions, funding questions have been raised, but I don't believe that is representative, that there is that overriding concern.

There are specific concerns. lt is true that no review of the system has been done for more than a decade and it's time to do it. The forum for that review, I think, has been established and will be announced within the next week and I'm looking forward to it I think it's a healthy process, one that we need to go through and one that should help us establish our priorities for high school education over the next decade. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I've enjoyed the discussion to this point in time, and I'll reverse the tables on the Min ister a little bit, who is so famous for putting words in one's mouth. lt seems to me that, given his last comment, that what he's saying is, yes, he's going to concede that maybe we should have a review of the quality of education, even though in his mind he doesn't think we need one. The Minister shakes his head, but he also ind icated that he's had several meetings with parent groups and not one of them have mentioned quality of education to him so, ergo, in his mind, it can't be a serious problem. Mr.

Chairman, what has disturbed me the most over the last half hour is the fact that this Min ister is sounding so much like his predecessor . . . HON. J. STORIE: And that disturbs you? MR. C. MANNESS: ... the former Mi ni ster of Education, and of course I'm happy that the former Mi nister is here to hear it. Mr.

Chairman, this is a serious matter, and I say to you and I'll end my 10 -minute discourse with a very specific question; but in my view, our students, generally, in high school - and I stress, in high school - are not being sufficiently challenged and in no area is that pointed out more clearly than within the area of science learning. Two years ago when Mr .

Macek brought forward his report, I hone stly thought the Min ister and the department at the time would seriously look at some of the recommendations and, more importantly , accept the objective analysis, at least the methodology that was put into place to develop that report. In my view, the department did not treat the particular ind ividual that fairly, even though I concede to the Mi nister and the former Min ister that there were many mee tings held between Mr .

Ma cek and various department staff; but I think the chronological series of events - and I won't go through them because my col league has done that - would indic ate that this, like so many other areas of education, in my view, has not been taken terribly seriously in a quality sense by the Min ister, by the Min ister past and by the department. Mr.

Chairman, I remember when the optional Family Life material came in and the Mi nister at the time would try and convince the public at large that the criticisms that were being directed toward that particular Calgary curriculum were those of people coming from a very narrow conservative view, people who really were trying to make an emotional issue out of it; and yet, two years later, with pressure, Mr. Chairman, and Mr.

Minis ter, with considerable pressure from the community at large and also from the Opposition, the Min ister finally laid before the House and the people of this province a curriculum that I think is to a large degree acceptable. So I say to the Min ister, when he's considering either Family Life or he's considering a science curriculum, don't be in such a rush to accept the status quo.

Don't be in such a rush to accept what the highly paid professional curriculum development specialists and people within the education commun ity, professionals, are saying, because there are people outside in the community who also have very much a vested interest, mainly that being their children's education, and people who also bring with them a large degree of experience in a whole host of areas that can make major contributions. Nobody should have the complete say as to what curriculum development should be. Indeed, Mr. Macek shouldn't have it. I shouldn't have it and nobody should. Mr.

Chairman, I think we've gone through an exercise where pressure has caused a major revision within the Family Life optional material, something that was not seriously considered by the government when it was originally released. Pressure has caused that and I would hope that the Minister would seriously consider a request from the Opposition. I would hope he would take this as a formal request, that Mr. Macek be appointed by him, by the Minis ter who has the authority to so appoint to this Science Curriculum Review Commi ttee. Mr.

Chairman, there are a large number of people on ther e and we're, as the Official Opposition, requesting that this Min ister name one person and that person is Mr. Macek. There can be no reason, no rationale, because I'm prepared to bet there hasn't been an individual in this province over the last 10 years who has delved into greater detail, into greater depth, into any curriculum subject matter than Mr. Macek and brought forward, not for political gain, not to embarrass anybo dy, but to bring forward for the well-being of all science students and all students within this province, a better curriculum.

He's laid it before the Min ister. His pedigree is the document itself and therefore I request that the Min ister would name that individual to that Curriculum Review Commi ttee. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I answered that request previous ly. I have ind icated that I will consider it. I recognize that it's a request, and I have ind icated that I'm appreciative of the work that Mr. Macek has put into documenting his concerns about the science curriculum.

I want to indi cate two other things: No. 1, the department does refer the science curriculum issues to people outside of the department, from the un iversity 24 11

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 commun ity, from the indu stry. So it is safe to say that there is another perspective being offered, not only in the science curriculum but in every other area. The second point, I have indicated that, yes, the whole area of science curriculum is a concern. it's, again, something that the department has been attempting to deal with but, you know, I referenced the fact that parents had met with me and not raised the question of quality education specifical ly.

There are perceptions out there ab out the acce ptability of high school programs generally and some of the concerns are legitimate and need to be addressed. In terms of the science curriculum, Mr. Chairperson, I have met with the univ ersity presidents. To my knowledge, there has been no commu nication from our community colleges or un iversities which lay out any specific concerns about the relationship to the science curriculum in the high school, to what is going on in universities, to the quality of the gradua tes from our science courses and moving into the universities.

So, I have to raise the question that if the system is so in adequa te. the scienc e curricu lum is so inadequate in our high schools, why hasn't this issue been add ressed to me by uni versity presidents, by the deans of sciences, by un iversity faculties, by the univ ersities themselves? They have never raised that issue with me other than to reflect on the fact that we don't have as many science gradua tes and that is not simply a phenomenon in Manitoba. I want to, as well, indicate that on the whole issue of qual ity, the Department of Education is not alone in that.

While we try to provide leadership, clearly , there are some 60 school boards, some BOO school principals and admini strations, and some 14 ,000 teachers who also are concerned and working toward providing a quality education. Having said I think that's what we're provid ing, it doesn't preclude a review to improve and enhance what we're doing. Final ly, Mr .

Ch airpers on, I would like to table rec ommen dations from the "Science for Every Student," which came from the Science Council of Canada, statements about what they feel should be included in the science curriculum across Canada and what the response has been K- 12 from the department, and just to indi cate some of the areas which have been raised; some of the concerns which have been raised; and some of the suggestions which have been made by the Science Council of Canada which is not a curriculum review body, and to indicate the department, the science curriculum consultants attempt to maintain contact with outside bodies interested in science and science education to ensure our curric ulum is appropriate.

I know that we don't like odious comparisons to other provinces, but I reference again the fact we are not substantially out of step. In fact, we are leading in some areas in terms of science curriculum development. I would like to table that as well, Mr. Chairperson. MR. C. MANNESS: Just two very brief final comments, Mr. Chairman. Firstly , the government takes great pride in the economic side whenever they're leading the nation and in telling us they do so. I just suggest to the Min ister there's nothing wrong with leading the nation in the development of a sc ience curricu lum.

So let's take a lead from ou rselves and from our own people within the community who have a vital interest within that. Secondly , I want to thank the Mini ster, Mr. Chairman, because it's great to enter into some discussion on science curriculum and not have the fact thrown at us that our science curriculum must be doing well because we've won four or five major Canadian awards . . . HON. J. STORIE: I forgot. Excuse me, Mr. Chairperson. MR. C. MANNESS: . . . and I want to thank him for that. HON. J. STORIE: In fairness to staff, they asked me to say that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Ru ssell. MR. L.

DERKACH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to move into the area of the curriculum and the combination of the 00 and 01 programs. Can the Min ister ind icate how many courses in the high school system are being combined at the present time? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, I don't believe I gave the number but those issues, as well, were dealt with this afternoon. Essentially there are only two subject areas where that is occurring. it's language arts and social studies at the 10 -12 level. MR. L. DERKACH: Can the Minis ter tell me when the decision was made to move in that direction? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, about three years ago. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, I would like to indicate what was said last year in Estimates by the former Mini ster of Education when questioned about the combining of the 00 and the 01 programs. The remarks by the former Mini ster was, I quote: "But it isn't a requirement or a direction that the department has decided to go in." Is the Minister of Education now telling us that this decision was actually made three years ago? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I don't have the reference the member refers to.

I don't know the context in which those comments were made and I obviously wasn't the Mi nister at the time. I can only tell you staff informs me that the decision to move in that direction was made some three years ago and, just to make it clear, the courses themselves are not delivered concurrently; the curriculum guides are prepared in a way in which both levels can be subsumed under one. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr.

Chairman, I have to pursue this topic for a little bit because I think there was some misinformation given to Manitobans last year when, in Estimates, the Minis ter ind icated that in fact only one school in one school division was doing that and it was not a direction the province was going to be going in. So, I'd like to know why all of a sudden this year we're 2412

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 saying that particular decision was made some three years ago? HON. J. STORIE: I don't know how that confusion arose other than to say it is an interim curriculum at this point and will be until next year. lt has been phased in at the 10 and 11 year and this year will be phased in at the Grade 12 level, or the 300 level, and so in that context it may have been only referred to as interim, I don't kn ow. MR. L. DERKACH: If the Mini ster would wish, I would certainly provide him where it is he can find that in Hansard and then I'd like an explanation of those comments by the department then.

HON. J. STORIE: Do you just want to give me a reference, a page number there, Len. MR. L. DERKACH: lt's Thursday, June 20, 19 85, Page 319 2, 319 3, and 319 4. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, the questions last year were asked by the Member for Kirk field Park with respect to the combining of the 00 to 01 programs. I know that topic was broached this afternoon. I have some questions I would have liked to have asked at that point in time but could not get in. I would like to ask the Min ister whether or not we have a new program, the blend of the 00 to 01 program?

Is that a new program or have some of the skills been elimin ated from the 00 program, or diluted in other words, so that the 00 or the 01 type student could handle these skills. HON. J. STORIE: No, the exact opposite actually. There has been no reduction of the expectations or the requir ements of the 00 students. The only difference is I suppose the opposite could be said that given the curriculum guide now reflects the similar goals and objectives, the higher objectives that we're expecting more from the 01.

I say that because we're all aware of the need of improved reading, writing, listening and speaking skills in students and the decision was made to allow more flexibility for the teacher to develop higher expect ations. You use higher level resource materials within the context of the 01 course. So it hasn't been weakened. There has been no lessening of the standards in terms of the 00 course.

What we've tried to allow the teacher to do is to use the 00 courses in the 01 areas when it's appropriate, and to use other materials when they feel that there's a necessity because of the level of skill of the students or special interests or whatever. MR. L. DERKACH: So would the Mini ster tell me whether or not the standard for, say the Language Arts in Grade 10 now is, the 00 level? Is that the standard? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, the standard is 00 level. MR. L.

DERKACH: In other words, the Mini ster is now telling me that we have elimina ted the 01 program and the 01 standards and we're into the 00 program and the 00 standards for all students. HON. J. STORIE: What I'm saying, Mr. Chairperson, is that the 00 standard in Grade 10 is as it was, the objectives and the goals of the 00 course, Language Arts, are as they were; that we now believe it is appropriate to have the same expectations in the 01.

However, recog nizing that some 01 students will not have the same language facil ity, some of the resource materials, the instructional materials, some of the strategies that are used in the 01 course, and they're separate courses, will be somewhat different. MR. L. DERKACH: Well, this whole concept then escapes me because the reason that the 01 program was implemented some years ago, was to allow those students who could not handle the 00 program to get some level of skill development but not to the level that the 00 program provi ded.

The 00 program was meant for university entrance, and the skills in that program were of a higher level. Now the Min ister is saying that we can bring up that 00 student to the same level, or the 01 student to the same level as the 00 student, but not in all cases. So what is the standard, what is the variation factor for that 01 kid now? HON. J.

STORIE: I think what we're trying to do is to give the teaching staff the flexibility to move students along in the 01 course, to get them as close to the 00 standards as we can be, rather than set a minimum standard a 01 curriculum which perhaps in some people's view is less appropriate, less accep table, we're trying to leave the teaching staff some flexibil ity, trying to set again the goals for both Language Arts Programs in the 00 and the 01 as being equivalent and yet letting the teachers use some flexi bil ity, recog nizing that students always don't go into the appropriate level course.

There can be a variety of reasons why students choose 01 or 00. All we're trying to do is make sure that students in Language Arts throughout high school get as high a level of skill development as is possible. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr.

Chairman, has this area been discussed by the department with the university and with superi ntendents and with school princi pals throughout Manitoba to get their full accept ance in the direction that the department is moving because no matter how you say it, there still has to be some lowering of expectations in order to have the two students, the 01, the 00 student come up to a standard where they can both enter university. HON. J. STORIE: Obviously one of them is taking a 01 course. That 01 dedication would only mean that different materials, different strategies may have been used in the classroom.

But I've indi cated a couple of times that the idea behind it was to expand the 01 Language Arts Program to make it more compati ble with what the expect ations are of students when they graduate from high school. The thrust of the revised program is to make it a more language development program, to emphasize more than just literature but to emphasize writing and 2413

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 speaking and reading and listening skills to all, both levels. The question was raised about whether there was consultation and yes, there was, that before the curricu lum was revised tha t indiv iduals from the universi ty, the Faculty of English and the Faculty of Education were a part of the review and the process. MR. L. DERKACH: And was the concept accepted by the Superintendents Association, by the Principals Association and by all the un iversities in Manitoba? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, on the Curriculum Polic y Review Council, those groups are represented and yes it was on both counts.

MR. L. DERKACH: So we are seeing the beginning of an end for the 00 to 01 courses in Manitoba then, and what we are going to have one course, a blend of the 00 to 01 and any students taking those would then be able to go into univ ersity? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, the member is being careless in his listening skills. There has been no suggestion that there is amalgamation of these two courses. There are still two distinct and separate courses being offered in the high school program in Manitoba, a 01 program and a 00 program. MR. L. DERKACH: There is right now, yes. HON. J.

STORIE: And there still is, today and for the foreseeable future. There is no amalgamation. The amalgamation has only been in the area of the goals and objectives of the English Language Arts - no longer designated solely as English - but as a Language Arts Program in high school. The purpose behind it has been explained. The purpose is to make sure that we're giving the very best that we can by allowing some flexibility in the 01 program to introduce new materials where appropriate. MR. L. DERKACH: I see we're not going to get too far with this particular topic and this Mi nister so we might as well abandon it.

But I would like to ask the Min ister whether or not in the programs that are taken by Grade 12, is there going to be a demand of Grade 12 students to take more than just the one compulsory Grade 12 program as it is now. HON. J. STORIE: I'm not sure what the member's real question was. MR. L. DERKACH: At the present time, I believe it's true that a student graduating from high school can gradua te and take only one compulsory Grade 12 program and that is English 300.

Is it going to be a demand or an impr oved standard by the department so that students have to take more than the one program in order to get a high school graduation diploma? HON. J. STORIE: Reco gnizing that to get into un iversity, they would need at least a minimum of three 300 Level courses, but I think that again is a question of whether that is appropriate. One of the questions that I'd raised earlier as being an appropriate question for review by the High School Review Comm ittee and that is the designation of core curricu lum and level as wel l throughout the high school years. A good question. MR. L.

DERKACH: Is there going to be any change with respect to the 04 programs that are being offered in the small high schools across the province right now? HON. J. STORIE: I'm sorry, I ... MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . asked was there any change in the 04 programs in the small rural high schools. The Mini ster of Education. HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, the 04 courses have been redeveloped. I believe that process is just finishing. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to know what the findings were from the Kindergar ten assessment and were there any chan ges rec ommended? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, I unde rstand that the report and the recommendations are just being finaliz ed at this time. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Can the Mini ster tell us what changes were rec ommended? HON. J. STORIE: No, the commit tee has not made its report. The report and the recommendations are in the process of being prepared and I expect that they'll be ready in approximately a month's time. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr .

Chairman, the former Min ister had ind icated that she was going to bring in something called peace education, I think; curriculum on peace? Has the process begun to deal with peace education in the schools? HON. J. STORIE: Well, I don't know that it will be formu lated as peace education per se. I think the whole issue of peace and conflict as a world issue is an appropriate one for discussion in the high school system in particular. I think there are opportunities to discuss peace and cooperation and conflict in the context of the Social Studies program at other levels.

But the department is only collecting resource materials at the present time. Again, I suppose, well there are many who would like to see a full- fledged program of peace education or peace and conflict education on the curriculum. That is probably going to take some time to develop and receive approval and become part of the optional courses. lt is, of course, a part of the current issues in Grade 12, or at least it's referenced. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Min ister looked a little unsure when he said it's referenced. What organizations are they receiving the resource materials from? 2414

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the department is developing bi bliographic lists from libraries and those kinds of things at this point. No particular source, other than, I suppose written material, is available publicly in various quarters. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would it be possible to get a list of some of the resources, I guess; some of the organizations or li brary resources that they are looking at? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, I can certainly try and get the member a current list of the resources that have been identified. MR S. G. HAMMOND: Yes, Mr .

Min ister , what is happening with the mid dle years; the juni or high schools? Are they coming to an end or are they K-8's or K-9's and then high school? What's happening; and what direction is the department heading? HON. J. STORIE: Essentially those decisions are being made at the school division level but I guess it would only be fair to say that the models vary; that there are K-9, K-8, K-6 and K- 12 schools, although the K-12 schools tend to be admin istered somewhat differently or be part of the school divisions; small schools in rural school divisions. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, there are a few new schools being built. Are they all over the board, too, or are they generally taking one dir ection? HON. J. STORIE: I guess if you can develop a trend from the last couple of years, it tends to be more K- 8. I just wanted to add a point that really dealing with the middle years, really it's an approach to adolescence in teaching middle years' chil dr en rather than an organizational approach per se that I think is the important point to remem ber. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Well, considering the middle years, if the schools are going from K-8, and then 9- 12 is going to be high school, will they still be separating 7-9's then? HON. J. STORIE: In the K-8 schools, the middle years would then represent 5-8. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'd like to ask about the home education. If the Min ister could tell us how many students are being educated at home, not through being in a remote area say, but through choice. MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. Is the member referring to Item 4.(

g) Correspondence Branch? MRS. G. HAMMOND: Well, if that's where it comes under .. HO N. J. STORIE: Frank ly, I don't kn ow what appropriation number it comes und er. Let's say 6.(e). There are under 200. Now how many of those are taking home schooling because of remoteness, I don't kn ow. I don't think we have that broken down, but there are under 200 in total. Some of those will be taking correspondence courses from the department; some of those will be receiving instruction in the home using curriculum material and some others being used from an eclectic variety of sources by parents or others. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Who validates or measures or tests the quality of home education? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, there are two people attached to the department who interview and are responsible for verifying the adequacy of the instruction and evaluating the student's progress. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is there a sampling of the home ed students who are writing the provincial assessment test? HON. J. STORIE: No, there hasn't been. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Dealing with home education and the quality of the education, are these students getting computer literacy, phys. ed, a second language - just how is it dealt with?

How are these subjects dealt with? HON. J. STORIE: Again that would depend on the resourcefulness and the resources of the parents who obviously have made a decision to educate their child ren at home. I don't think we have any breakdown of what kind of resources are being put in, but certainly I expect there are some home-school situations where the children do have access to home computers, PC's, etc. So there are no requirements other than checking for the adequacy of instruction and evaluating student performance from time to time. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: When I was just doing a bit of checking into home education, an educator told me they were watching CBC and a Mr. Roland McCurdy - I don't know if he's with the department; they thought he was a consultant, I believe, on CBC -a nd this person found it a little bit embar rassing to find someone from the department would be extolling the virtues of home study and more people should be taking advantage. Is that a correct assessment of that program? Did anyone catch it? HON. J.

STORIE: Obviously there are some parents who believe that's a good option for a lot of different reasons and sometimes it reflects religious values in the home, deeply held religious convictions of one sort or another. I believe the public education system provides a quality of education and an assurance of quali ty that won't always be there if parents choose to educate their children in their home, but that's not saying there aren't parents who do an adequate job within the home and I believe if they feel that's a choice they want to take, they have a right I suppose to do that. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I guess my question is dealing with someone from the department advocating things. That seems like a strange place that reports are coming from. 2415

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to ask some questions on the different curriculum that's in the - what's this thing we've got - the annual report? Special needs - the Min ister mentioned earlier that with the Welcome Home Program, the department and Communi ty Services were working together with the divisions - how closely are they working? Are all the children who are moved into the commun ity, are the divisions notified as to what instruction level they're at?

If they know there's going to be say a group home where there might be three or four, is the division notified to let them know where the homes will be located? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, th ere is a good deal of cooperat ion. I ind icate that only a couple of weeks ago the Deputy Min isters from Community Services and Health and Education met with the Superintendents Association to establish a better understanding of the relationships and who would be respon sible for what in that process. But there is a good deal of pre-planning that is undertaken before the move.

Sometimes that is dir ectly with the department, other times with the school division. The school divisions, obviously , when they become aware of the fact that special needs students are being moved to the division, then will avail them selves of the services of child care and development and any of the appropriate grants that are provided to assist school divisions with special needs students. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: With more mainstreaming, at least more advocates for mainstreaming, students who are mentally handi capped, if a group home, or two or three should happen to move into one division, does the department provide extra grants or extra services to that particular division or have they come to an agreement on this yet? HON. J. STORIE: There is a formula for both low incidence support and that may include, depending on the degree of handicap, up to $1 3,300 per child in assistance. As well, obviou sly, support services from the department as needed in terms of assessment and that kind of thing. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: If these students are being moved in all through the year, if a budget is struck, is the money forthcoming to the division in that fiscal year or do they have to wait for another year? HON. J. STORIE: I unders tand there are two points at which Low Incidence Grants can be provided. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What kind of training has been given to teachers to deal with mainstreaming? Has there been something to prepare teachers up to this point other than, say, in-services?

I would think that if a teacher was going to have two or three students, there would be a fair amount of stress and there would be a different type of teaching that they would have to provide to some of these students. HON. J. STORIE: Of course, the in-serv1c1ng and professional development opportunities that either are made available through the professional development activities of the local Teachers' Association or the school division are avai lable, as well as any pe rsonal involvement in professional development.

So many of the teachers are becoming involved in special ed, because of mainstreaming or because of an interest in the area, are doing their own development. Again, because of the fact that those who are multiply­ hand icapped receive Low Incidenc e Grants, there is sometimes additional support provided right in the classroom for the teacher to reduce the stress. I don't think there is any doubt that for many teachers without a great deal of experience in dealing with handica pped children, it is trauma tic.

There are all kinds of expectations, some of them realistic and some of them unrealistic about what is going to be accom plished. it's difficult, but most teachers seem to be coping with it and obvious ly, I guess, we would always like to be able to provide more assistance, but I think school divisions and the department are essentially doing the best they can. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Coping is a pretty tough word. When one copes, usually often you see an end to and a solution. Are there summer school courses?

Has the department made any arrangements with, say, the un iversity on special ed, for summer courses for teachers to take advantage of? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, there are a num ber of special ed courses offered through intersession and summer school at the University of Manitoba. I believe most of them are at the University of Manitoba, and at Brandon. I'm told there are courses at Brandon as well. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The health curricu lum: The Minis ter has just released the Family Life education, the optional unit. Have any of the divisions ind icated that they are going to participate this fall? HON. J.

STORIE: I haven't heard anything subsequent to the release of the material. I did have an indi cation from, I believe, it was Winnipeg 1, that they were interested in looking at the optional material as soon as possible. Again, a num ber of other divisions and groups such as the Superintendents' Association had raised the issue with me requesting that the province move in terms of Family Life Education programming. I think there are a num ber of divisions who are looking for a base upon which to build a Family Life program. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Is the department planning to pilot this once again or are they just going to give it to the divisions? HON. J. STORIE: No, it has been approved as a part of the health curriculum. MRS. G. HAMMOND: When the Min ister says it was approved, will they be looking to the teachers, then, to make recommendations for further changes once it's into a division? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, it is entitled an interim curriculum because there is an expectation that there may be 2416

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 modifications. Certain ly, school divisions are free to adapt the material to include or exclude, I guess, materials as they see fit, but I can't say that at this point when additional adaptations would be made to the curriculum. lt would depend on how successful or how many concerns are raised about resource material in the curriculum itself. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Turning into health, the Drug and Alcohol Program, how many divisions are using the material and have there been any major changes to the program? HON. J.

STORIE: I und erstand that there are four or five divisions currently using the program and that an additional 20 have ind icated an interest in starting in the next year. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I thought the Min ister might be interested to know and possibly had been informed that in St. James, when they did a survey, that was the overwhelming response from both parents and the commun ity, that they wanted more drug and alcohol . . . I think it sort of floored them that there was that much interest in the communit y. HON. J.

STORIE: lt is going into its final form September of this year and that's, I assume, why there's the interest in many of the other divisions. Certainly, any literature I've seen ind icates an overwhelming su pport on the part of parents for tha t kind of information as well. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Getting back to the health curriculum, I understand that there are resources for the first two units, but there aren't any for the rest of them and there are seven units to complete. Is that correct, that there aren't any teacher aids, any kind of resource material for the other units? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, I un derstand that there are two to go out in September and two by next Septemb er. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Voca tional: The Winnipeg South Vocat ional School, is it totally completed now? HON. J. STORIE: The South Winnipeg Vocational Centre, I believe it is completed. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Member for Kirkfield Park, the Min ister said he believed it is completed. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, it is. MRS. G. HAMMOND: There was a press release, and I had it at my fingertips a minu te ago, that ind icated that they were looking for something like $300,000 funding. Did it say from the community? I apologize.

I had it at my fingertips a minute ago, and I've managed to lose it again. I know what it was. lt was a press report, that's what it was. HON. J. STORIE: Am I answering a question? MR. CH AIRMAN: The qu estion was about the 300,000.00. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I apologize. HON. J. STORIE: I didn't know what the question was. You don't have to apologize. MRS. G. HAMMOND: lt ind icated that the school was looking for . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: lt might be an appropriate time to take a short recess. I will declare a short recess for five minutes, and we will return at 10 :00 p.m.

This will allow people to find notes and do other things as they feel appropriate. RECESS MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The

article I'm referring to said the centre is still looking for another 300,000 from non-government sources to cover remaining equipment needs, including the possibility of using loaned equipment from industry. HON. J. STORIE: The Winn ipeg South Vocational Centre was set up in a kind of unique way, and it was always anticipated that the board, which is a separate board, would be soliciting, trying to attract funds from other sources, indus try and private sector, other institutions, to be offered in a c ost recovery kind of way, as well as obviously support in terms of provision of equipment materials. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Have they been successfu l? HON. J. STORIE: I can't honestly say that I've even toured the facility yet, but that's an oversight that I intend to correct in due course, recognizing that there is funding from two sou rces curr ently within gove rnment. One, of course, is the reg ul ar GSE Program, which funds the high school portion or a part thereof, and funds that come from PACE, which supports the adult training that's going on there. lt's an interesting mix in terms of its conception and operation. lt seems to be establishing itself.

Although it isn't to capacity yet, my understanding is that it's moving in the right dir ection. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'd just like to notify the members that the time is ten o'clock for voting purposes. I assume we wish to continue. The Member for Kirk field Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The

article indi cated that the Technic al Centre is operated by Assiniboine South, St. Vital and Fort Garry with each allo cated student spot based on their total high school enrolments. If one division finds they have fewer students, will they allow students from another division to take some of their spots? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, it's certainly possible that they would. They're operated as a separate board so, while they had their origins from those three divisions, they are a separate board and, I suppose, could make 2417

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 arrangements with other divisions as they saw fit, recognizing, I presume, there's some either written or unwritten understanding that those divisions would receive prior ity. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are there any new initiativ es in vocational training? HON. J. STORIE: Certainly, I think the South Winn ipeg Vocational is a new initiative. There are several other new initiatives taking place in high schools in Manitoba.

I referenced one somewhat earlier in the debate when I talked about the relationship which is developing between the community colleges and high schools for the provision of certificates that actually are provided in the high school as optional courses. So that is somet hing new and creat ing some in terest, and something specifically that the High School Review is going to addr ess, is the qu estion of voca ti onal education, its appropriateness, and its future in high schools, how it might develop. MRS. G. HAMMOND: That would be like the child care at Stu rgeon Creek as an example.

I'm going to ask the Min ister if there are any new initiatives in business education. I'm just going to continue on. I mean outside of what is in the annual report. HON. J. STORIE: The only other thing, Mr . Chairperson, would be a proposal for a keyboarding program. I gather that's in the in itial phases at this point. But I'm interested, just as an aside, whether the member has any comments about the program that's being offered at Sturgeon Creek, about the Child Care Program. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I haven't really heard an awful lot about it, except that I know that it's been well accepted and that they were pleased with it. In the busi ness ed, I just was wondering, are they expecting to have more young men in business ed now that pay equity is into place? HON. J. STORIE: I'm very glad that the member referenced pay equity because, you know, when she was asking the question, I was formulating my response and it was going to relate very directly to pay equity. I assume that you would not find women's job ghettos to the extent you do if there, in fact, was pay equity. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: The home economics, I had one question, first of all, because I imagine, although I understand - are there both men and women now, young men and women taking home ec at high school? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, in both home ec and industrial arts. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The one thing I notice that's missing in the home economics course, they talk about clothing, housing, design, foods and nutrition. I see that financial planning is missing. Is there any move to including that in the home ec course at high school? HON. J. STORIE: I'm told that, in terms of curricu lum, it's assumed in each of those areas. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: The reason I mention that, I find that this is one area that women are lacking when they come out of school. If they don't end up in jobs that they're dealing with budgets and if they are in the so­ called women 's ghetto, I was just wondering if it's possible to have a special curriculum or part of the curriculum developed for more emphasis on financial planning. I think it's especially important for young women because they very often don't get that kind of experience or expertise in the job force. HON. J.

STORIE: Two responses - No. 1, in terms of the high school and, again, it's certainly an appropriate question about the content, I think, in terms of high school review. I think the member makes a good point particularly now, that there is some more sensitivity to the needs of both males and females to receive some practical experience on family living - whatever the term is - and I think the issue of financial management would be very appropriately inco rporated in a more obvious fashion into the curriculum with that area and I would like to take that under review. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I'll expect to see it in the next annual report. HON. J. STORIE: Can you just pass me your report and I'l l put that in now. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Physical education, are there any new initiatives in phys. ed.? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, the phys. ed. curriculum is going to be assessed in the coming year, next spring. MRS. G. HAMMOND: In the annual report it ind icates that there are workshop topics, including CPR. Are the students given CPR instruction? The reason I'm asking if there's been any changes to the mouth-to-mouth resuscitation since AIDS has become such a prominent topic as far as health is concerned.

HON. J. STORIE: I'm told, in terms of a health concern, there is a requirement that they use a removable mouthpiece, so it isn't . MRS. G. HAMMOND: In Art, are there any new initiatives? HON. J. STORIE: The senior high school program will be comple ted this year. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Heritage Langua ges - there is German, English, English/German bilingual, junior and senior high German, German in Hutterian schools, Hebrew, English-Hebr ew bilingual, Icelandic, Polish, Yiddish, Ukrainian, Italian, Latin, Spanish, Portugese, Filipino, Chinese.

My question is: Is there one person in the department in each of these specialities who does the curriculum? Exactly how does that work? HON. J. STORIE: I understand there are four language consultants who work with teachers and, in some cases, community representatives to develop the material. 2418

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'm sorry, I didn't catch the first part of that. HON. J. STORIE: There are only four consultants in the department assigned to work directly in this area, they work dir ect ly with rep resenatives from the commu ni ty, in some ins tances, and tea ching professionals to develop the curriculum materiaL MRS. G. HAMMOND: How are the Heritage Languages assessed? Who would do the assessing of the teaching of the languages and how well they're being taught? HON. J. STORIE: I guess the question of how well is best answered by the schools and the parents.

Obviously the school divisions who deliver the programs attempt to get the best qualified people they can. I think in most instances they have been able to find people with language experience within their division, in schools, to offer the programs. In terms of evaluation, evaluation again is done by adminis tration and I suppo se that evaluation is based on (

a) the curriculum and (

b) the performance of the teacher. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Mi nister mentioned parents. I'm sure very often the reason some of the children are taking other langua ges is that the parents lost it themselves, so they're maybe not a good judge on how the student is doing in the langua ges. How much time is spent on Heritage Languages? Are there 50-50 programs in Heritage Languages or is it just like the basic French? HON. J. STORIE: There are bilingual programs in which there is 50-50; those are referenced.

The other ones are anywhere from 30-40 basic programs, essentially like basic French, it would be 30-40 minutes per day. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are any of these programs taught outside of school hours? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, as a matter of fact I met today with the Manitoba Association for the Promotion of Ancestral Languages and got a full briefing of the very many courses that are being offered in what they call suppleme ntary schools which operate in community halls and, in some cases, before school, after school, Saturda ys and Sunda ys. it's been fairly well accepted and seems to be creating a lot of interest in the communiti es. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Do they get grants or are they doing this on their own? HON. J.

STORIE: The grants that are used to support those activities come from the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreat ion. MRS. G. HAMMOND: English as a Second Language, I think if memory serves me correctly there was a report that some of the immigr ant students were going into French Im mersion and didn't have a handle on the English language. Am I correct and, if so, how is this being handled? 2419 HON. J. STORIE: I understand there are very few cases where that is happening. I can only say the parents, for whatever reasons, have chosen that.

I presume it's that they have some confidence that the children will be able to assume other languages. Perhaps some assumption that the English language, perhaps being the predominant one in the commun ity, would be absorbed through the normal course of living and what they're looking at is trilingua l offspring rather than bilinguaL MRS. G. HAMMOND: Even if there are just a few, it must cause some sort of problem if they're taking English and if it's the 75-25 and 25 percent of your time is English, are these children being given extra support; or what's happening to them? HON. J.

STORIE: No, not to my knowledge, unless there's special support requested, the school division may in fact be offering additional support. They're not in a substantially dif ferent position from Francais students who attend school and who are learning English in that proportion of time. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Multic ultural Education, are there any new initiatives in this area? How long has the Multicultural Education been offered in the schools? HON. J. STORIE: Multiculturalism is not a course per se; it is a policy ad the pol icy was developed and has been circulated.

I don't know if it is referenced in the annual report, I assume that it is. it's been extremely widely circulated. I have had responses from most of the school divisions, from community groups, intercultural councils, many others who have ind icated support for it, I believe, including the school division of St. James which sent back a letter ind icating that yes, they in fact not only supported it, but it had been in effect implementing their own pol icy, I believe, for some time. So that is a new initiative.

Dep ending on whether we get consistently good responses, I presume it will be adopted as a policy and if there are some concerns we'll have to address them. But it's at that stage right now where we are looking at the responses to the policy as they come back. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Have there been any suggestions coming out of the division for change or to better deliver the policy? Have some of the divisions come up with good ways to share with others, of dealing with the multicultural polic y? HON. J.

STOR IE: I think basical ly, although not referencing the polic y, school divisions have, by example I sup pose, demo nstrated the im portanc e and the ethnicity of having a multiculturalism polic y. Winnipeg 1, as an example, had a pretty extensive series of activities around Multiculturalism Week. I presume that multicultural policy would not necessarily endorse that, but want to expand the activities to encompass all areas of the curriculum and expand the school year as well. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, is it the Advisory Council that is connected with Culture Heritage?

Do they have any input into this - it's not a program - but into this part of the annual report?

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: MIC has been consulted and asked for a response to the policy but they weren't involved dir ectly in the development of it. That was done internally and with consultants in the department, in consultation with MIC and many, many other community groups. Within the department, I think the member kno ws that there is a Mul ticulture Education Resource Centre. There are a lot of contacts within that group as well who have expressed interest in and contributed in one way or another to the development of the pol icy. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I would think with such a resource as the - what is it called - the ln tercultural . . . ? HON. J. STORIE: Manitoba lntercultural Council. MRS. G. HAMMOND: That's right - with that type of resou rce set up by the Mi nis ter of Cultu re, the department would be making good use of them. HON. J. STORIE: I can only indicate, Mr. Chairperson, that many of the people who serve on the ln tercultural Council are in fact members involved in so many of the other groups throughout the commun ity. But they too have been involved in a sense that their opinion has been sought and their counsel taken. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, the Ma terial Selection Process; are all the materials and books that are used Canadian content? Say if there was a good book on World History that came from the States and was American-made, would that book be used in our curric ulum - and I use the States as an example meaning it could be written wherever. HON. J. STORIE: That's another issue. I'm beginning to get a little concerned here. The member and I are thinking a lot alike in many respects. One of us is wrong.

The question of the use of Canadian material as part of the curriculum and as resource material I have raised on a num ber of occasions with library staff. I was approached by the Manitoba Writers Guild with raising the int erest in having Mani toba-Canadian authors promoted. In reviewing - and I did review the Manitoba Text book Bur eau off erings - and was plea santly surprised to see that we do have a pretty wide array of offerings from Canadian authors in a variety of areas and some Manitoba works represented as well.

But I cer tainly think there is significant potential for enhancing the visibility of our own authors through the school system and perhaps prov iding a little more incentive for our own aspiring authors. So, it's something I intend to pursue and ensure that where possible our talent is highlighted in the curric ulum and in the resource material. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The next one and essentially we dealt with it, there's just one area, Womens' Studies, Bias and Prejudice. lt indi cates that there's an Annual Career Symposium emphasizing career opportunities for women in visible minor ities.

They say they're specific teacher in-service programs. Do they have anything like this that students can attend to get dir ect input? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, I' m told th at the Career Symposiums, both the one in Brandon and the one in Winnipeg had a heavy emphasis on women in a variety of roles, etc., and that, in fact , there was a special science and technology conference for young women, which emphasized the impor tance of their role and their contribution to science. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How were the women chosen to attend the conference? HON. J. STORIE: There was no limitation.

Essentially , their involvement was solicited through the counselling services in school divisions. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Was there good attendance? How many would you say would come from each division or was there one division that sent more than others? If they're going to hold any more, would there be more emphasis placed on seeing that young women get to these conferences?. HON. J. STORIE: I'm told there were approxima tely 500 young women in volved in the Science and Technology Conference that occurred in both Winnipeg and Brandon. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Next, guidance and couns elling.

One of the areas that is dealt with in the annual report is the child sexual abuse prevention and the classroom teacher, and right now at the forefront, of course, is MTS looking for guidelines on whether and how safely they can protect themselves by touching children. Has the Minis ter or has the department been able to come up with any guidelines and if not, will they have some before school starts in September? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, as a matter of fact I met with the President and the General Sec retary of MTS today to discuss that issue, along with a num ber of others.

I just want to put on the record my concern as well in terms of that issue. I've ind icated to MTS and I think it's important that it be said, that teaching is a very personal profession and that the relationship between a student and teacher, in my opinion, is critical to success in the classroom; academic, social, emotional success.

I would certainly not want the current concerns of the profession to be tran slated into gu idelin es which inhi bited tha t relationship, that affection is a very powerful motivator and that disp lays of affection work to reward students and to motivate them and, certainly in the elementary grades, has been used as a motivator and a part of the art of teaching for a long time. lt would be indeed a tragedy if fear and mischief created a situation where teachers could not perform in that kind of a fashion.

Rather than be prescriptive in terms of setting down a list of rules that, well this is situation 7(a), we're in a Grade 5 classroom and this is expected so I shall only pat Jane or John on the head rather than display some true affection or emotion. I think that would be the wrong way to go. Instead, what I've suggested and obviously this will have to be discussed further, is the notion that what we need to have is a very studied approach after allegations have been made, that we're not stampeded into guilt, trial by media or trial by accusation, that in 2420

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 fact due process and the presumed inno cence be the established practice. There may, in fact, be a way of dealing with protecting the reputations of teachers, protecting students obviously from abuse at the same time, but it's a difficult issue and will obviously require a bit more thought. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Will they be asking teachers, when they are being certified or moving into the province from another province - are they looking into it to see if they have a criminal background or if they could be on the Child Abuse Registry for that matter? Is that sort of thing being looked at now?

HON. J. STORIE: Yes. I want to point that's quite a separate issue from the one we've just been discussing. That issue was also discussed and I've ind icated I've taken a number of steps as a result of the most recent incident which has been reported. No. 1, I have written to my counterpart, the Chairman of the Council of Education Mi nisters for Canada, indi cating that I would like the issue of developing an interprovincial protocol for deal ing with the trans fer of problems from jur isdiction to jurisdiction. I have met with MTS.

I will be meeting with MAST and the Superintendents' Association to see if we can develop a provincial protocol to make sure that those kinds of things don't fall between the cracks, between the department's respon sibili ties to certi fy, which to this point is meant essentially that we are checking profes sional qualifications and not doing a reference - we are not the employer in this instance - but to make sure in fact that is done.

My greater concern is that for whatever reasons, inadvertently or intentional ly, there appears to be a willin gness on the part of sending jurisdictions to misinform, that in fact we are receiving, school divisions are receiving glowing accounts from people who have had previous convictions. Now, that may be in the form of a to-whom -it-may-c oncern letter. That isn't acceptable. That certainly is not an acceptable practice between divisions or between jurisdictions.

I think what I'm seeking and will be seeking in my meeting with my counterparts across the country is some reco gnition that we have to have a way of dealing with this, we have to be able to exchange information, and we have to be honest and up front. Because this is too important an issue to be on the grounds of expediency for relieving ourselves of a problem to be creating a problem in another jurisdiction.

So we'll have to deal with it on that level and perhaps come to some understanding about what we're going to do internally to make sure either the employing jurisdiction or the department does the appropriate checking. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I guess to get back to the guidelines, or no guidelines, as the Minister is indicating, this is going to be a pretty tough thing for teachers because once someone has made - and maybe in a city school area - the name may not be well known, may not get around the same way, although I doubt even that, but when you're into rural areas and a teacher has been put under suspicion of child abuse, it would be pretty hard to clear that person's name, because 242 1 if ever there's an instance where there's smoke there's fire, I think this is going to be it.

I don't know how teachers and how the department is going to deal with it, but in spite of the fact it's nice to hug a small child and to show affection, that teachers may end up having to give a pat on the head and a nice smile to avoid running into some of these things. I think it's foolish but maybe in a way to leave it up to the teachers, because I think if these things happen to them, it can destroy not only a career, but it can destroy a whole family.

Everyone is so conscious today of this and I would think the teachers really should get a fair amount of guidance from the Mini ster in this area because it's so important and we're seeing examples in your own mind when you read about them in the paper, you're not sure if it's true or not. You tend, if it's a child, to think it has to be. Yet, sometimes it's a mistake and it's been a mistaken charge, I'm sure of that.

I say to the Mi nister I really do feel this is one area he maybe should rethink because it just can be a terrible, terrible thing to happen to a teacher - certainly we know to the child; we've been all through that and we all agree on that - but I think they are in a particularly hazardous job these days with that always in the back of their minds. I wanted to ask how many of the divisions supply or have counsellors at the elementary level? HON. J. STORIE: Unfortunately , not that many school divisions have full-time counsellors at the elementary level.

I un derstand it may be as few as half-a-dozen that have full-time counsellors at the elementary level. I just wanted to comment on the member's previous remark about rethink. What I'm indicating is yes, something needs to be done to provide some security for teachers. I think rather than trying to prescribe how the relationship between the teacher and student develops, other than common sense which teachers use, is the question of how do you deal with the accusation because it is debilitating; it is professionally damaging if not fatal. You want to deal with it from that point on.

In those instances where, I think it's imp ortant one's in nocence should be presumed and all involved should act that way and provide as much support and continuing support as possible through that difficult episode. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes well, human nature being what it is, that's a pretty onerous and difficult task. The next

part in the annual report was the assessment. I think we pretty well dealt with assessment earlier, so I'm going to carry on. School Li brary Services - are there any new initiatives in that area? HON. J. STORIE: I guess one of the changes the member referred to was the involvement of school lib rary consultants in the curriculum area, one person assig ned to curric ulum br anch, to ensure tha t coordination, I guess, between the materials and the curriculum is done adequately . MRS. G. HAMMOND: I think that's all I' ll deal with as far as curriculum from the annual report. I have the Winnipeg Labour Council Minutes from April 22, 19 86 and it indi cates in Note No. 4 a lengthy

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 letter from Mau reen Hemphill regarding labour issues and labour history placed in the school curriculum. Would it be possible for the Min ister to table that letter so that we would know what the Mi nister was telling me may be cancelled about labour issues and labour history, placed in the school curriculum. HON. J. STORIE: Well, if there are specific questions about the government's position, I'd be more than happy to respond. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Will the Mini ster table the letter? HON. J.

STORIE: I haven't consulted with my colleague, but I'm ind icating that if there are any questions about the government's pol icy, I can certainly ind icate to the member right now what they would be. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What is the policy? I guess the reason I would like to have a copy of the letter is to maybe have questions on, when it says lengthy letter from Maur een Hemphill, possibly the letter itself would lead to one or two questions. But what is the . . . ? HON. J. STORIE: Without having seen the contents, I can give you a brief synopsis.

I'm quite certain of what the letter indi cated and No. 1, it's been a long­ standing interest by the labour movement to ensure that the curriculum, as members have ind icated, there is a need to reflect the interests of women, the interests of our multi- cultural society. There is a need to include information relevant to the labour movement and its history in Manitoba.

What they are seeking is a labour education course and, to this point, the position of the government has been that yes, we are attempting to incorpor ate all of our history, in all of its aspects, in our social studies program, and that we want to ensure that there is a fair balance of perspectives provided through that program so that all people can feel that their interests are presented in social studies courses and in history courses and that their interests are given a fair and open review. So that's essentially what is the essence of the communications that have gone on. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: If it's possi ble, maybe the Min ister would consider tabling the letter. The last thing that I have to ask in this area is: has the Min ister got an answer now for the question I asked about objectives and the extent the objectives are being met as far as social studies curriculum? HON. J. STORIE: We can certainly provide a copy of the assessment review which gives the full set of objectives and an overview of the results of that particular

section of the curriculum, and I can provide that to the member. I think it's a fairly thick document and going over all of it would be fairly time-con suming. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I'd like to make a point, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to return just very briefly to some of the statements that were made recently about teachers and their concern with regard to child abuse accusa tions against them. I'd like to tell the Mini ster, through you, Mr.

Chairman, that I think it is very impo rtant that there be no specific guidelines, that one teacher out of 12, 000 being accused of child abuse represents .008 percent - well then let's make it .0 016 percent. I think that supports must be there for them, aid must be there for them through both the Teachers' Society and through the Department of Education. But, as a former teacher, I will, if I return to the profession, continue to hug a Grade 12 student if that child has, for example, lost their father and needs a hug at that particular time.

I would like to think that all members of my profession would continue to do the same thing. HON. J. STORIE: Hear, hear! MRS. S. CAR ST AIRS: In terms of some specific questions regarding the high school review, will we be continuing to implement at the high school level new cu rricu lum th at is now in the process of being developed, even though the high school review might, it may not, but might, declare that curriculum to be invalid or inapprop riate? HON. J. STORIE: The only answer I can give is, yes; that would sort of be prejudging what the high school review might say. We're on to a process.

I wouldn't expect - I said we shouldn't prejudge and then I'm pre judging - tha t we would have a wholesale condemnation of any part of the curric ulum. What is more likely is a rearranging within the curriculum of priorities, in terms of time, accen tuating one over the other, parts of the curriculum over the other. So that's the kind of expectation I have. There may be some other substantive changes in the organization of high schools, but I think that we would want to continue.

The process has been established, much of the groundwork has been done and, in all lik elihood, it will be required in any event, although there is the possibility I suppose that aspects of it will be suggested, or removal too. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I would also like to return to a discussion that was given earlier by the Minister for Roblin -Russell with regard to the 00, 01 curricu lum.

I became very confused, because I know that Language Arts at the Grade 10 and 11 are not combined, but it is true that at the 300 level, they are in fact combined; that for the three basic units the 30 1 students and the 300 students are brought together and then the 300 students do two additional units separate and apart. Now this may not occur in every high school, but it is in fact occurring in some schools.

I would like the Min ister to comment, if possible, on the reaction of the teachers to this, because when it was first proposed I know there was great concern on the part of teachers that the time of many of the 300 students would be wasted because the curriculum might well have to be watered down for the 30 1 participating students of that class. HON. J. STORIE: There has been nothing, again formally , to me, but correspondence to the branch ind icates that department heads have indica ted that they are finding it accept able and workable and things 2422

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 are proceed ing well. So there have not been violent objections from any quarter. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, S. Ashton: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Does the Mi nister have any num bers as to how many schools actually do have 300 and 301 English students together? HON. J. STORIE: No numb ers, no, but it is fairly common. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: The Min ister ind icated earli er, however, the 200 and 201 and the 100 and 101 will not be combined. Is that correct? HON. J.

STORIE: The only time that wouldn't be the case would be in small schools where a school is making that decision conscious ly. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: In the area of physical education curricu lum, can the Min ister tell me if there's been any movement towards the granting of physical education credits for those young athletes who are participating in intensive athletic programs, for example, a figure skater who skates 20 hours a week?

Is there any consideration being given to an opt-out provision so that the youngster does not have to take phys ed 10 and phys ed 20 in light of the physical activity that she or he is engaged in? HON. J. STORIE: I'm not sure whether that's been conside red seriously. Just an off the top of the head comment, it seems to me you would be into a situation where very quickly someone would be arguing that my 20 hours of chess are an intensive recreation sport activity, or darts. There would then become a pretty broad-ranging discussion about what merited that kind of special treatment and what didn't.

Secondly , I guess the goals of the phys ed curriculum are not simply to provide physical exercise, although that's a prime consi derati on. There's also the consideration of developing a lifelong interest in and kno wledge of and skills in a wide range of sports, both extremely competitive and what are called life sports. I think tha t those students would be mi ssing something, although certa in ly you would have to recognize the pursuit of excellence, I think, is the kind of thing you're talking about.

I think that is done probably in a lot of informal ways in the school system, in that recog nition is given to those people who are inv olved in the pursuit of junior national championships and so forth, in terms of absences, in terms of special considerations in a lot of ways. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I think it's easy to identify those almo st near professional-type athletes in our high school program.

I mean, a young man or woman working at a gold test level in figure skating is obviously a child who is involved in a recog nizable program where there is professional coaching and teaching going on at all times and where they can be easily certified to have been participating at that kind of level. We deal frequently with an example of a structur e in which phys ed is compulsory at Grade 10 and Grade 11 . They must have that half-credit course at those levels.

I think it puts these young athletes at a disadvantage. it's not that they haven't partici pated in life skills sports; they have for nine grades at that particular point. I think that I wouldn't like it to pertain to all young people, but I think there have to be exceptions to this rule whereby the Min ister could, in fact , grant a kid that credit on the basis of exceptional effort in a particular physical area. HON. J.

STORIE: I guess what we're talking about here, then, and I suppose that if a school division felt that it was impo rtant enough to deal with that concern, they could cer tainly offer a local course, an 05 designation. lt would be similar to the credit that is granted for those who have a second language facility credit. So there may be opportunities for school divisions to explore that on their own. I suppose, as a department, we would want to maintain that a curric ulum provides a lot broader objectives than that, but there may be a way around that.

Maybe that's something we could suggest if that issue is raised. MRS. S. CARST AIRS: On the comment that the Minister made earlier about pay equity hopefully leading to an elimination of women 's job ghettos, I invite him to come and to meet my male secretary. HON. J. STORIE: Oh, you're kidding; I've been looking for one for years. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I'm looking now at 4.(b) (1) in particul ar. The 1985 Esti mates indica ted a sum of $2.27 1,5 00 but, in effect, the expenditure was some $100,000 more. Can the Minis ter advise where that increase came from? HON. J.

STORIE: I'm sor ry, are we back on the Estimates? MR. C. BIRT: 4.(b)( 1) . HON. J. STORIE: Apparently, secondments from school divisions are paid out of that appropriation, which accounts for the decrease. MR. C. BIRT: Secondments? HON. J. STORIE: Secondments of curric ulum consultants, which come from the school divisions. I can give an example of one who came from the Flin Flon School Division. He was a computer consultant. MR. C. BIRT: Well, you mean the 100,000 overage or additional expenditure was solely due to the borrowing of staff from other school divisions on secondment? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. C.

BIRT: What was the original amount budgeted, then, for secondments? Why did it go overbudget 2423

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 $1 00,000.00? If it did go over $10 0,000, what was it they were doing? That's a heck of a lot of teachers. HON. J. STORIE: lt's not over budget. lt's taken out of one appropriation, and the surplus shows up in anot her. So it's paid out of Operating, I should say, which is Salaries. lt's budgeted in the Salaries sect ion, but it is paid out of Operating. So you end up with a deficit in Operating and a surplus in Salaries. MR. C. BIRT: Is the Min ister referring to the Operating being line (b)

(2) Other Expenditures? Because that was budgeted for $1 ,392,000 and in fact you spent $200,000 more, so that's up $200,000; the other one was up $10 0,000.00. HON. J. STORIE: No. Are you talking about 4.( b)(1) and (2)? MR. C. BIRT: 4.( 1) and (2). HON. J. STORIE: 4.( b)(1) is . MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you talking about last year, 1985- 86? MR. C. BIRT: The Estima tes for 198 5-86 for (b)

(1) Salaries showed $2.27 million. You spent $2.37 million according to the figure that's here. In Line 2, (b)

(2) Other Expenditures, it was bud geted at 1. 39 and you'v e come in at 1. 53, so it's not quite $200,000.00. HON. J. STORIE: The staff are confused again, because you're referencing 1985 print over 1985 actual. MR. C. BIRT: Yes, the Estima tes of last year to a final figure. HON. J. STORIE: This is the adjusted vote. What's shown here is the adju sted vote, so the explanation I've provided you is correct. MR. C. BIRT: In those two items, there's approxima tely $300,000 spent over and abov e what the Estima tes contained last year. What I'm trying to find out is where did the expenditure come from?

You've indicated that operating line which, if it's (b)(2), expenses are taken out of there and appl ied to (b) (1) . lt still doesn't make sense because you've overspent in both. Mr. Chairman, perhaps if we could just leave the questions and perhaps when we next return there might be an explanation that's readily available. MR. CHAIRMAN: lt's theoretically possible, yes. HON. J. STORIE: I'm quite certain of that. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, the reason I was asking was because when we were going through one of the earlier parts of the department there was a staff transfer, I believe. lt probably was out of Adminis tration; maybe it was Communi cations, of some $45,000, was the person and monies, yet there was no actual increase in Salaries. There's a slight decrease of some $2,000.00. Why isn't the incr ease reflected? HON. J. STORIE: There is some in and some out. The one is transferred in, but . . . The one referenced earlier was from the school libraries? MR. C. BIRT: lt's either that or Communi cations, I'm not sure which. HON. J.

STORIE: I believe it's to that one and there were several transferred out, which accounts for the reduction. Those transfers occurred to MET V. MR. C. BIRT: Is it four positions? HON. J. STORIE: Four positions out, one in. MR. C. BIRT: And the four went to TV. HON. J. STORIE: Pardon me, three went to ME TV; one went to transfer secretary to School for the Deaf. I don't have the appropriation num ber. MR. C. BIRT: So your total of SY's then declined for that particular . . . HON. J. STORIE: In the sub-appropriation, by four, yes. MR. C. BIRT: Okay. Mr.

Chairman, I move that we pass a couple of these subdivisions and then I could go into Native Education and I just have a few questions in there. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.( a)( 1) - pass; 4.(a) (2)-pa ss; 4.(b )( 1)- pass; 4.(b)(2)-pass. 4.(c)( 1) - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, in the Estimates yesterday we went through a fairly detailed breakdown of the financial support and under two or th ree separate lines there was funding, some of it large, some $2 million, some of it $400,000 directed to Native Educa tion.

I believe you can find bits and pieces throughout the Estima tes of Education dealing, in a very broad sense, of Native Education or Native support for education. I'm wondering why isn't it all brought together in one subsection or whatever you call this because this does not seem to reflect the true sums of money that are being spent by other departments, as it relates to Native Education. HON. J. STORIE: Most of the other references have been made to the grant system, the categ orical supports, the other - I guess they're all categorical supports - provided through the Government Supp ort to Education Program.

There have been a numb er referenced. The Native Language Dev elopment Program, the additional support to school divisions because of loss of enrolment of status students, so those are all issues that are dealt with through the Finance and Admin. Branch. These are program-related involvements, primarily K-12. 2424

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 MR. C. BIRT: Ma ybe I can get it this way. Then is this the department that deals with all Native Education matters, even though, say, expen ditur es or some services may show up in other departments? This is act ua lly the nu cleus or the centre for all Native Education matters in the Department of Education. HON. J. STORIE: K- 12, yes, in the public school system, and then there are other . . . MR. C. BIRT: Could the Min ister ind icate the num ber of staff people that are in here, please? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, the number is 14 - that's unchan ged from last year. MR. C.

BIRT: And there seems to be some decrease in Other Expenditur es of some 20-odd thousand. Why is that? HON. J. STORIE: Minor reductions in a number of areas - reduced support for external events, reduced development activity in terms of travel, reduced resource acquisitions, those are the kinds of issues, a total of a $1 9,000 reduction. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I just have a couple of questions as well, Mr. Chairman. What is the grant that is given to the Manitoba Association for Native Languages Incorporated? HON. J.

STORIE: The grant is $15 0,000.00. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Is that a direct grant from your Other Expenditures in this particular

section of this budg et? HON. J. STORIE: No, that would be in 16 .(5), the PACE Division. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can the Min ister tell me if there is any curriculum development going on in this

section of Native Education. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, there is. MRS. S. CARST AIRS: How many of the staff years would be allo cated to curriculum development? HON. J. STORIE: Three. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: What is the coordination, if any, between Manitoba Association for Native Languages which is also developing curriculum and the three staff years who are developing curriculum at the Department of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Well there is certainly liaison, but the Association for Native Languages is in volved in the commun ity, basically pre-school and adults. That is their focus. MRS. S.

CARST AIRS: Well they're certai nly , Mr . Chairman, developing curriculum materials that I und erstand is being used in many of the Native schools throughout Manitoba. My concern is: is there a real sharing of curriculum materials between these two organizations? HON. J. STORIE: I'm told that, yes, there is. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: The Manitoba Association for Native Languages, which is a relatively new organization, has a budg et requir ement of, this year, some $286,000.00. At least, that's what they would have liked their budget to have been.

What was the reason for the department's decision not to incr ease their budget allotment? HON. J. STORIE: Essentially two reasons, I believe that some of the funding that the group was expecting from the Federal Government did not materialize, or there was in fact a reduction. We have stayed with the allocation of resources from last year, so we're providing the same level of funding. There is obviously some intention to review the activities and do an evaluation of the activities to ensure that there is justification for continuing support to that organization. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: In response to the question from the Member for Fort Garry on the $20,000 Other Expenditur es cuts, once again, the Min ister showed it in the areas of professional development and resource acquisition. That is in addition, of course, to professional dev elopme nt and resource acquisition cuts in Curriculum Development and Imple mentation. I'd like to again put on the record that, of all cuts in Education, I find this one the most difficult to comprehend. HON. J. STORIE: Well, I can only indicate that it is a very small reduc tion, some 5,000.00. There are two points I want to make in this area.

One is that many of the services that have been offered by the Native Education Branch over a long period of time have gone dir ectly to support the activities of Treaty Indians. lt is my intention to find a way to recover, find some way to cooperate with the Federal Government in terms of the provision of services.

I think it's important that, as bands attempt to establish a school system on a reserve, the band­ controlled schools, that they be supported. lt's putting the province in an extremely awkward position of wanting to do that, and yet not receiving any reciprocal assistance in a lot of other areas where we haven't made requests. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I agree with the Min ister that every opportunity and methodology must be used to get the proper amounts of money out of those most responsible for Native education.

However, I do think it's important that we remember that we inherit the problems that are not met by an education system. Therefore, it is imperative that, if they're not met by the level that should be meeting them, we don't also reject our opportunity to ensure that these people have the training that they require to enter into a modern soci ety. 2425

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: Well, the only other comment I can make is that the reductions in this branch, there have been small reductions as we try to trim our expenses, and then there has also been an equal thrust on the part of the department to provide more of its dollars directly to school divisions. If you actually track over the last few years, you 'll see that a decreasing proportion of our spending has been spent internal ly, and an increasing proportion has been allo cated to other authorities in the province who obviously feel and I feel have a very great understanding of the local needs.

So it's been a process of trying to meet the needs in the local school divisions and the local bodies by trimming what we're doing. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, I think that is an interesting concept. However, as long as we are going to write curriculum at the central level, we must be prepared to do the professional development and impl ementation of that curriculum to ensure that the curriculum is, in fact, cha ll enging, and th at the challenges therein are recognized and supported by the teachers teaching it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(c)( 1) - pass; 4.(c)(2)-pass. Is that it?

So we finished 4.(c)( 1) and (2); we're on 4.(d). Okay, we will continue on 4.(d). Commi ttee rise. SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Comm ittee of Supp ly, please come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Health. We are now on Item 7. Hospital Program and Personal Care Home Program. The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to raise a few questions with the Min ister under the Capital Program. With very keen interest, I note two of my communities are involved under the Capital Program. Would