LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 23 June, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Pres enting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving of Petitions . . . Pres enting Reports By Standing and Sp ecial Commi ttees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TA BLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Minis ter of Finance. HON. E. KOST YRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker . it's my ple asur e to table the Provi ncial Tax Comparison Tables. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minis ter. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I'm pleased to inform the members and the people of Manitoba that today is Seniors' Day at the Legislature. lt is a day in which all of us here - and all Manitobans - can pay special tribute to the people whose vision and steadfast determination has helped to mould the fortunes of our province. Through the courage . . . their wisdom . . . and their carrying of the pioneer traditions of hard work, stewardship and of standing together in the face of adversity, we' ve been provided with a legacy of which we can all be extremely proud.

I would also like to mention, at this time, Madam Speak er, that in conjunction with Seniors' Day, I shall have the very great honour of presenting the Order of the Buffalo Hunt to an outstanding seni or. Madam Speak er, you may recall that last year, during the same festivities, the Order of the Buffalo Hunt was awarded to another great Manitoban, Stanley Knowles, for his life-long commitment to social change in Canada. Today , Madam Speaker , we will be honouring Ms. Marguerite Chown, who has for many years been a nur se and a teacher of nur ses, in Manitoba.

A tireless advocate of the di sabled and the disadvantaged in Manitoba, Ms. Chown has continually worked for and spoken for those who cannot speak for themselves. I am sure all members offer their appreciation to Ms. Chown for her selfless contributions to the betterment of Manitoba, and, as well, join with me in welcoming Manitoba seniors here today. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speak er. Madam Speaker , on behalf of my Leader and that of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, I am delighted and pleased to concur with the comments just made by the First Minister.

Certainly we, in the Opposition, welcome the opportunity of seeing so many of our seniors here on the grounds, here in this building. Allow me, Madam Speaker , to commend the government for making this event, now I believe a second annual occasion. I recall last year it was a very successful day and I'm sure a very worthwhile day for the many seniors that came, even though the weather was somewhat more blu stery, if I recal l.

Today, at least, it seems that the sun is coming out at the right time, and I'm hopeful that our seniors will enjoy seeing this building, visiting this building and, as the invitation reads, to take full advantage of the occasion. Madam Speaker , it grieves me, therefore, to add the slightest marring tone to this comment. What I am grieved about, Madam Speaker, is that this government would choose this occasion to blatantly politicize the event by having staff and other people hand out NDP propaganda material on the steps of the Legislature when our senior citizens were being welcomed to this building.

Madam Speaker , I say this with regret because surely this government is not that insensiti ve to know that this is all of Manitoba's peoples' building and property, and this government is a government for all people; we can surely leave politics behind us for one brief moment, for one day, the election is over. I'll be more concerned, Madam Speaker , if it should, upon further inv es tigation, find out that government staff was involved in the handing out of this material.

I take no exception to the material that, quite appropri ately, was handed out; the general invitation to the senior citizens; the invitation to visit different offices; the invitation to share coffee and doughnuts with us, Madam Speaker , that the people of Manitoba and the taxpayers of Manitoba are paying - not the New Democratic Party. So, Madam Speak er, I do take exception that this otherwise great da y, and good day, and a day that I want to be a good day should be marred by the in sensitivity of this government. Thank you, Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, thank you, Madam Speaker . On a point of order, just to the matter which was add ressed in the Honourable Member for Lakeside's comments, in respect to the material being handed out. lt was indeed being handed out at the front door in error; that error has been rectified. lt is now being distribu ted in the caucus room and cer tainly we apologize for any inconvenient that might have caused, or any discontent that might have caused members opposite, or anyone else, and we believe the matter has been rectified to their satisfaction and to everyone else at the present time.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Government House Leader did not have a point of order, but a point of information. 1132

Monday, 23 June, 1986 Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. R. PENNER introduced, by leave, Bill No . 26,

An Act to amend The Public Trustee Act; Loi modif iant la

Loi sur le curateur public. HON. R. PENNER introduced , by leave, Bill No. 27,

An Act to amend The Liquor Control Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la reglementation des alcools . ORAL QUESTIONS MPIC - Committee hearings MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I direct a question perhaps to the Government House Leader . I appreciate that he has indicated the immediate order of business, but there is concern on the part of the Opposition as to when the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, Autopac will be appearing before the committee of this Legislature? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Governm ent House Leader . HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, as a matter of practice, we have tried to work with the Opposition House Leader in order to determine the ordering of the different standing committee reviews of the reports which are referred to them . Of course, we have to determine whether or not that particular agency is ready to proceed to committee at this time, and we also have to determine , from our perspective and from the perspective of members opposite, what should be the priority items .

I would be more than pleased to sit down with the Opposition House Leader to talk about what item s are still outstanding in respect to standing committee reviews, and determine the appropriate ordering, by consensus if possible . We've attempted to do that in the past; it has worked on some occasions; it has not on others. MR. H. ENNS: Well , Madam Speaker, I refer anoth er question to the Minister responsible for Autopac. Could the Minister indicate to us just who will be answering to the committe on behalf of MPIC? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster responsible for MPIC . HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, as the Member for Lakeside knows, last Wednesday Cabinet appointed an acting general manager, Mr. Robert Silver. He will be appearing at the committee to respond to any questions , assisted by the chairperson of the Board and certainly myself. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker , I just want to understand this . This is our corporation which does some $240 million-250 million worth of business. We will be reported to by somebody that was appointed a week ago , or a week Wedneday. Will any of the vice­ presidents of the corporation be reporting to the committee at the same time? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I should indica te that Mr. Silver, certainly has a good knowledge of the corporation. He has been a member of the board of directors in an ex-officio capacity. He will also be assisted by the five vice-presidents who have a very thorough knowledge of the operations of th e corporation. MR. H. ENNS: I thank the honourable minister, Madam Speaker, inasmuch as he is in an accommodating mood, could he perhaps insure that the Provincial Auditor is also present during those committee hearings? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, it ' s cert ain ly not customary for the Provincial Auditor to be part of the com mitt ee hearings. The general manager is well acquainted with the contents of the report , as are the vice-presidents who met last week with the Provin cial Audi tor to go through the concerns that were express ed in that report. I think that there are sufficient person s to be able to respond to any questions that the Opposition may have with respect to the Auditor 's Report. Senior's Day - distribution of material MR. H.

ENNS: Well, Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order, although I'm sure you may want to refer to is as a poin t of information lat er on. I direct it to the Government House Leader. It's my understanding, by a message that was just couriered in to me, that thi s blaze orange mater ial was still being handed out at the back of the building; perhaps he could have those instructions . . . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: Responding to the memb er's point, we will certainly make certain that it is not being handed out anywhere else than in the Caucus Room .

MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member did not have a point of order. He had a question. The Honourable Government Hou se Leader. HON. J. COWAN: In response to the question , Madam Speaker, I will leave the Chamber posthaste to inform those who are responsible for the handing out of that material, that that material should be handed out only in the New Democratic Party Caucus Room, rather than in any other part of the building at this present time. MPIC - appointment of President MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourab le Member for Riel. MR. G. DUCHARME: Yes, thank you, Madam Speaker , to the Minister in charge of MPIC. 1133

Monday, 23 June, 1986 Given the recent dismis sal and the im portance of the president, as recently discussed, his necessary duties in the day-to-day operations of the MPIC, the necessity of the immediate appointment to answer the many allegations, and to satisfy the many concerns of the emp loyees and the Manitoba motoring public, will this Min ister be announcing the appointment soon of the new president? MADAM SPEAKER: respon sible for MPIC . The Ho no ur able Min ister HON. J. BUCKLASCHU K: Yes, as was annou nced at the time of Mr.

Silver's interim appointment, it is our hope that we will have a permanent appointment in place within four to six months or so. MR. G. DUCHARME: A supplement to that. Will the Min ister be advert ising national ly, throughout the ind ustry, and throughout the large centres nationally for this new appointment? HON. J. BUCKLASC HUK: Yes. Home Economics Directorate - status of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is for the Min ister of Health.

At this moment, the Home Economics Directorate is under review, the department responsible for putting together the pamphlets for seniors, such as, are on display outside in the hallway, outside this Chamber today, can the Min ister assure this House that these valuable programs will not be jeopardiz ed as a direct result of the six positions tha t were dele ted in the Ho me Economics Directorate? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Ma dam Sp eaker , that statement I think is false, because that has been resolved already, the question of the Home Ecs.

If not, I think it has been announced by the Min ister of Agriculture. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: A new question to the Min ister of Agriculture then. Can the Min ister of Agriculture assure us that these programs will not be jeopardized as a direct result of the deletion of the positions in the Home Economics Directorate? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Spea ker, the premise of the que stion is totally wrong because the government indi cated ini tial ly, after the anno uncement was made, that we were reviewing that whole matter and, in fact, I can assure this House, as I will be assuring other groups, fol lowing upon consultations and further meetings that we will have, that the service that the Home Economics Branch of both the Department of Health and the Department of Agriculture, in the delivery of services to both urban and rural families, will be maintained. Budworms MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Emerson. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: There's a major outbreak of jack pine budworm in the province which is killing many of our jack pine trees. Can the Minis ter ind icate to what extent this outbreak has taken place and what he's doing to curtail it? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minis ter of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , to give an ind ication of the exact number of hectares that are infested at this time that require spraying, I would take that portion of the question as notice.

I would like to ind icate to the member , as I had ind icated to the House earlier this year, that extensive preparations had been ma de for acq ui sitio n of equipment and materials for combating the outbreak of jack pine budworm in various parts of the province; so there was certainl y an adequate degree of preparedness and I'm confident that it is being dealt with. As far as the information on the specific numbers of acres or hectares that are presently being applied, I will take that as notice. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speak er, to the same Minis ter.

Could the Min ister ind icate how much money was budge ted in his budget for the control of the jack pine budworm, and how much money is he planning to expend? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , I would take that as notice. We will be reviewing my departmental Estima tes and that figure is there. lt is a considerable sum of mo ney. There is a large amount allo cated and we are prepared to expend the full amount if it is necessary, but I think it would be premature to judge whether it would be necessary at this time. Silviculture Program -layoffs MR. A. DRIEDGER: A final supp lementary to the same Minis ter.

Could the Minis ter ind icate that if the money is not all going to be expended that he's budge ted there, whether he would rehire those 22 people that he hired one day and laid off the same da y, if the program is not going to use all its money? HON. L. HARAPIAK: To the Member for Emerson, I would like to ind icate again, as we have earlier in this Cham ber, that if the funds were not utilized to com bat the jack pine budworm, that there would be funds allocated for further work in the Silvaculture Program, yes. 1134

Monday, 23 June, 1986 Bill 4 and Bill C-117 - Farm Debt Review Bills MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Agriculture. Given the fact that the provincial Bill 4 and the federal Bill C-117 have the same basic objective, namely, farm debt review; and given that Bill C-117 is to receive second and third readings imminently in the Federal Parliament , has the Minister sought legal advice to determine which bill will take precedence in the Province of Manitoba? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, first of all, there is a flaw in the honourable member 's description of the two bills. The provincial bill is an attempt to assist farmers in their financial difficulties; and the federal bill, quite frankly, coupled with the Rural Transition Program , basically places grease under farmers who are under the skids presently . It's a bill for the bankers, rather than for the farmers, Madam Speaker .

I want to advise my honourable friend that clearly, in terms of constitutional jurisdiction, the province has its full authority dealing with the question of land and the procedural legislation that is now being put forward in this case. It does not have the authority, as I outlined in my remarks when I introduced Bill 4, it does not have the authority to deal with procedural motions dealing with foreclosure on equipment, livestock and machinery, of which we have asked the Federal Government to pass procedural legislation, as they have done in the past in the area of interprovincial trucking . MR. G.

FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Given the fact that this Minister of Agriculture has requested the Federal Minister of Agriculture for the opportunity to include equipment and livestock in Bill 4, and the fact that the equipment and livestock are part of property in Bill C-117 , if he will now support Bill C- 117? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I have indicated publicly, had Bill C-117 , as the member points out, gone as far as to protect farmers in terms of having a negotiated settlement, that we would be prepared to give consideration of withdrawing our bill.

Madam Speaker, the federal bill does not give that kind of protection. What it does give is allow people to come to apply to a panel for a voluntary arrangement. If there is no voluntary arrangement , or if the financial institution does not wish to come before the panel , no one can force them. There is no incentive for the financia l institutions to bargain with the farmers, and that's why, Madam Speaker, one of the main reasons, why we have not supported the federal legislation. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden with a supplementary. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker, a supplementary then.

Has the Minister arranged a meeting with the Federal Minister of Agriculture to talk about this jurisdictional problem and the different objectives that the two bills have, to determine what is best for the farmers of Manitoba? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, our staffs are in communication and, in fact, it's my hope that either later today or tomorrow, I will be attempting to further our discuss ions that we had in the month of May, in Ottawa, and to see whether or not this jurisdictional question, in terms of the possibility of having separate boards, can in fact be worked out so that there would be basically one board in the Province of Manitoba , and that we could cooperatively work to resolve this potential problem. MR. G. FINDLAY: Just quickly , Madam Speaker.

Could I ask the Minister to table that information to the House , as soon as it is available to him? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I will be very pleased to advise members of this House on the outcome of our discussions and negotiations as they proceed and there is something to report to the House . 55-Plus Program - estimated number MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR. C. SANTOS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'd like to direct a couple of questions to the Minister responsible for Employment Services and Economi c Security.

How many Manitobans will be participat ing in the new 55-Plus Program for seniors, and who are about to be seniors? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, it's impossible to tell at the moment. The enhanced and expanded program begins on July 1st. However, we've estimated tha t those 65 years of age and over, another 5,600 will probably be in the new program , and those between 55 and 64 - and that this depends on the applications of course, another 3,700 .

So we expect the total numbe r of Manitobans to benefit by 55-Plus to go up between 9,000 and 10,000 to a tota l of roughly 27,300 people . MR. C. SANTOS: Supplementary, Madam Speaker, can the Minister inform this House and the people of this province how he intends to let every eligible senior citizen be aware of the benefits of th is program? HON. L. EVANS: We do have an advertising program to advise people to participate,

part icul arly those between 55 and 64 years of age, because they can only rece ive the benefit if they apply, and of course, fall within the guidelines . But we do have a comprehensive advertising program using all the media, some transit advertising, and so on. I just might add , Madam Speaker, that as of last Monday, one day alone the office received 1,500 phone calls so there is quite a bit of interest in this. 1135

Monday, 23 June, 1986 MR. C. SANTOS: Final supplem entar y, Ma da m Speaker . Can the Mini ster inform this House, and the people of this province, how much this program will cost Manitobans? HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, our best estimate now is that the program will rise from roughly $3.3 million to $9 million, so we anticipate transferring an additional $6 million to people in low incomes, 55 years of age and over, in the Province of Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . To the Mini ster of Emplo yment Services.

Some of the television commercials that I've seen are rather unclear as to what age you can qualif y. Do you qualify after you're 65 years of age and are on a pension? HON. L. EVANS: Well, as we explain in the pamphlet, Madam Speaker , you qualify from the age of 55 on, but there are two categories, I might say. If you are 65 and over, through the cooperation with the Federal Government Department of Na tional He alth and Welfare, we will automatically know whether you can qualif y under the program, so those people need not apply .

But if you're between 55 and 64, the only way you can get in the program is through an application process. We in vite the cooperat ion of all mem bers, the assistance of all member of the House, getting the word out to those particularly in the 55 to 64 years of age catego ry. Education -Canadian Te st of Basic Skills, provincial norms MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Roblin-Rus sell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Min ister of Education.

Given that the Canadian Test of Basic Skill test results have shown that there is an urgent need to address the quality of education in Wi nnip eg School Division No. 1, and because there is a concern as to how students throughout Manitoba schools are performing in the basic skill areas, will the Minis ter, first of all ende avour to obtain the information giving the provincial norms, and if he has that information, will he then make that information available to, first of all, the school divisions and to this House? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

First I would like to ind icate that there are two sets of two quant itatively different assessments that go on in school divisions. One is the curriculum asses sment, which is the responsibility of the Provincial Government and which has been undertaken since 1979; the other is related more to individual achievement levels, whether they be through basic skills or information. The school divisions are respon sible for student assessment. Part of that assessment, in some school divisions, includes the Canadian Test of Basic Skills; it is not un iversally done.

The Department of Education, the Provincial Government, does not have access to that informa tion. At one time the province did access some of that information. We provide a scoring service to school divisions for the Canadian Test of Basic Skills, or now the Canadian Achievement Test, based on a U.S. test, but the province does not per se have that information or that information base. lt is the respons ibility of the school divisions. And because of the variety of tests that are used, because all divisions don't use it, that is not some thing that the department is going to unde rtake at this time. MR. L.

DERKACH: Well, Madam Speaker , can the Minis ter tell this House how many of the school divisions across Manitoba are, in fact, offering the CTBS Test, as opposed to the CAT test? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker , off the top of my head, no I can't. I believe it's about 50-50. I want to point out, however, that the member's initial question referenced the results that pertain to the Winnipeg School Division.

I pointed out on Frida y that the results in question are not clear-cut, that there's a signi ficant di fference of opi nio n amongs t professionals, amongst teachers, amongst educators in general, about the ethicacy of using tests of basic skills to determine the adequa cy or inadequa cy of a curriculum program, on educational standards. it's not appropriate; it's not deemed to be appropriate for that pu rpose. MR. L. DERKACH: Madam Speaker , a supple mentary question.

In view of the fact that the Minis ter is ackn owled ging that there are some problems, will he then endeavour to seek out the provincial norms and make them public? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I can certainly make public - and the member has already had access to - that information dealing with the provincial standards in terms of the curriculum and the level of achievement that students from across the province have in the curricu lum. The memb er kno ws tha t curric ulum assessment has been un dertaken in virtually every course area - science, math, read ing.

There has also been some supplementary testing which provides, as a result of testing that was done in 19 79,'80 and'8 1, a base from which to compare our progress or the degree of progress in par ticular curriculum areas. That information is published, it is available in the Legislative Librar y. I can certai nly provide the member with copies of the assessment review in each curriculum area since 19 79. lt provides provincial data and gives a pretty thorough review of where our students are in the basic curriculum areas. Education -curriculum assessment MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

I have a new question for the Minis ter of Education with 1136

Monday, 23 June, 1986 respect to a topic he just brought forth, and that is, the curriculum assessment. Can the Minister tell this House how many times the assessment has been carried out with respect to mathematics since 1979? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker , I believe only once . I would point out to the member that there is an ongoing program of assessment, that reading now has been assessed on two occasions, and that what we're establishing, Madam Speaker, is very important tor the long-term development of quality education in the province.

First of all, we have to assess what the curriculum is providing our young people. Then, in sub sequent years, we have to assess how we've developed from that base. I would acknowledge that the whole area of curriculum assessment and achievement in the area of curriculum development has been late coming to the Province of Manitoba, perhaps to Canadian schooling in general, but it is here. We do have some provincial norms upon which to assess our progress over the coming years .

I've indicated that there will be some comparative reports available comparing the early years with more recent testing to give us an idea of where we're going . MR. L. DERKACH: Madam Speaker, can the Minister tell this House whether provincial norms are available to school divis ions on the assessments th at are being carried out? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Madam Speaker, I believe the provincial data is available which shows a province­ wide view of what is happening.

It is not broken down by division , nor by individual school , but school divi sions have some ability to do an internal assessment based on what is happening in the province as a whole . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member tor Roblin-Russell with a final supplementary. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Madam Speak er. I'd like to ask the Minister of Education if he in fact will make sure that the provincial norms, norms I repeat, will be made available to school divisions in Manito ba? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speak er, I believe that is being done.

Patent Act - amendments to re pharmaceuticals MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member tor Ellice . MR. H. SMITH: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health . Recently the Pharmaceutic al Association of Canada issued a newspaper suppleme nt which urged the Federal Government to amend its Patent Act so as to prevent generic drugs manufacturers for producing low-cost substitutes for name brand drugs . Could the Minister indicate what impact such a move have on the consumers of Man itoba? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Madam Speaker.

If this bill was brought in, it would cost the taxpayers of Manitoba between $10 million - 12 million dollars without any benefit to Manitoba . MR. H. SMITH: Will the Minister be urging the Federa l Government to amend The Patent Act, or what action are you contemplating taking? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , with a majority of other Ministers of Health of other provinces , especially in the west, we made a presentation to the Federal Minister. We haven't heard any final reply yet MPIC - Autopac renewal date MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: Th ank you , Madam Speaker.

My question is to the Minister responsible for MPIC.

Given the fact that the end of February is usually a very cold time of the year, therefore , making it very inconvenient and uncomfortable for senior citizens, indeed for most people for that matter , to rep lace licence plates and/ or clean dirt off a frozen piece of metal in order to attach validation stickers; and given the fact that the Canadian Pacific Pensioners Association has recommended that the Autopac renewal date be changed to the end of April , my ques tion then is will the Mini ster consider making such a change to the Autopac renewa l time , thus making it more convenient for most people, and especially for our senior citizens?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister responsible for MPIC . HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, thank you , Madam Speaker . That letter, I believe, was sent to all MLA 's and I should indicate that I've reviewed the conte nts of that letter and asked for the Corporation 's response to that request. MR. G. ROCH: Is there a possibility then that we can expect some changes to the Autopac renewal date, given the fact that you've asked tor a review? MADAM SPEAKER: Will the honourable member please address his questions through the Chair. MR. G. ROCH: I'm sorry Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, and to the Minister responsible for MPIC. Given the fact that he's informed this House that a review is being undertaken on this question, is it possible then that we can expect some changes to the Autopac renewal date? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes. The matt er of an Autopac renewal date has been under review for some time. I've asked the corporation to take a look at the request by this particular group to see how it fits in with the other review that's taking place , and when a decision has been made I shall so inform this Hous e. MR. G.

ROCH: Is it possible that the Minister could give us an approximate time as to when we would know the results of this review? 1137

Monday, 23 June, 1986 HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes. I don't imagine that I would have it for the next month or six weeks, but probably sometime after that. MR. G. ROCH: I would just like to add, Madam Speaker, I'd like to thank the Min ister for undertaking such a review on behalf of the senior citizens of Manitoba. Motive Fuel Tax Levy MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker , my question is directed to the Minis ter of Finance.

Trans Canada Pipe Lines will be offering shipping discounts of about 55 cents per thousand cubic feet for natural gas to Ontario and Quebec distributors, but not to those in Manitoba because of the Manitoba tax on motive fuel. In view of the fact that in Brandon, for example, Madam Speaker , we're told that the average annual bill for consumers could be reduced by $60.00, instead of a projected increase of about $59.00, will the Mini ster reconsider this province's motive fuel tax levy? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urabl e Minis ter of Finance. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker , I thank the member for that que stion. Somehow though the figures that he's been given by someone don't seem to match the facts, Madam Spea ker. If one was to look at the total cost of the added tax burden on the pipeline, one would see that the cost for Manitoba consumers, if it was passed on an equal basis to all other consumers that are serviced by that pipeline, that the cost to a Manitoba consumer would be $1 .50.

If one were to take the argument of the pipelines, in this instance, and put all of the cost on Manitoba taxpa yers, you would find a cost of $24.00 maximum, not the $60.00 that's being suggested by the member opposite which is the same figure that has been suggested by the pipeline compa ny, so somehow their figures don't match. The increase in taxation is one that is passed on like any other increase cost to all consumers of that product, whether they be in Mani toba, or anywhere else. If that were the case the cost would $1 .50 per consumer . MR. J.

McCREA: Madam Speaker , for the Minis ter's edification the figures I gave . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. J. McCREA: Yes, Madam Speaker . The figur es do not come from the pipelines, they come from Inter­ City Gas which is the distributor here in Manitoba. How does the Minis ter propose to stand up for Manitoba in this situation so that consumers in Manitoba can benefit from such discounts, to whatever amount, just like other Canadians can? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Well the position, as I ind icated, is that the amount of money that it would Manitoba 1138 consumers if the company passed on those costs in equitable fashion would be $1 .50 per consu mer, so we will be intending to meet with the company to find out what is behind their situation, where they are suggesting that somehow, because of an imposition of the taxm that they can cost Manitoba taxpayers three or four times, at least, the cost of that tax throughout their system, I think it requires some dialogue and discussion with the companies because to suggest that somehow consumers are going to be im pacted by $60.00, when the actual impact would be $1 .50, requires obviously some explanation from that company .

MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speak er, after the Minister has his meeting will he please report to this House whether the figures he's giving us today are correct and, if they're not, will he come to this House and let us know what the proper figures are MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. lt is not in order to suggest that a Minis ter is telling anything but the truth. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: On the point, Madam Speaker, if I made any such suggestion that the Minister intentionally would mislead this House I would withdraw that without hesitation and without any reservation whatsoever.

I mer ely asked the Min ister if he can confirm the figures he gave today at a later date, after meeting with the distributor. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, Madam Speaker, I can confirm those figures today, or at a later date, because that is the actual figures in terms of the cost of that tax on the companies.

But, as I ind icated, we are prepared to meet with the company , in fact we'll be asking for a meeting because they haven't responded in the past to such a meet ing, but we'll be asking for a meeting specifically because of what they've stated in terms of increasing the im pact to Manitobans well beyond the im position of that tax. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speak er, will the Mini ster turn his attention to the proposed benefit from receiving a discount from a pipeline company , as opposed to measuring out what the actual imp act of the tax is? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

As I ind icated, that situation is such that the company is not being forthcoming in terms of the impa ct of that tax and the way that it ought to be shared by all consume rs of that product, the benefit from its movement through the Province of Manitoba, and the im position of that tax. Any other benefits that they may accrue, as a result of sharing agreements, ought to be dealt with in the normal way, and not im pacted by this or any or other taxation measure of this province, or any other province. Taxation -Business Transfer Tax MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C.

MANNESS: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

Monday, 23 June, 1986 I direct my question to the First Minister. The Premier and this government for some time have been calling for major federal tax reform and, given that the Federal Minister of Finance in the February 26th Budget introduced the concept of a business transfer tax, something akin to a value-added tax , can the First Minister indicate whether the Government of Manitoba has a position or a policy with respect to this new concept of federal taxation? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you , Madam Speaker.

We obviously were aware of the statement in the Federal Budget with respect to that tax measure, and I recently was at a meeting with other Finance Ministers and the Federal Finance Minister last Friday in Victoria - it seems the member has a problem there - and that tax was reviewed by the Finance Ministers and the Federal Finance Minister indicated, in a general way, how they were approaching that tax.

We asked a number of questions and asked for som e clarification on the way they were planning to implement that tax, and we will be continuing that review with the Federal Minister, as indeed are all Finance Ministers in this country, reviewing the proposed tax measures and changes with respect to the business transfer tax with the Federal Minister, and we'll be formulating an opinion once we have the required information, both in terms of its impact on businesses across Canada and its impact on other levels of government , such as, the provincial government and municipal governments in Manitoba. MR. C.

MANNES$: Madam Speaker, as this tax has a potential of bringing forward a radical change in taxation, can the Minister of Finance indicate when the Province of Manitoba will have a policy in place? Can he also indicate what type of time frame that the government is giving themselves to more adequately prepare themselves with respect to this tax? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well , the Province of Manitoba will be formulating a position with respect to that tax once we receive all the information that's been promised by the Federal Government. At this point, we have had some preliminary information .

The Finance Minister has indicated that he will be providing subsequen t information to the provinces on this tax and it will be discussed at a further meeting of Finance Minister s within a couple of months. Until we get all that information, the province will not be passing judgment or forming an opinion until we get all the information so we can make an intelligent decision on behal"f of the Manitoba taxpayers . Taxation - comprehensive documentation of MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementary, Mad am Speaker. The government again has indicated their desire to see major tax reform.

Can the Minister indicate whether this government will be preparing a comprehensiv e document dealing with all areas of taxation federally , as they indirectly would apply to Manitoba? Madam Speaker, I offer the question again to the Minister. I would ask him whether or not it's the government's intention to prepare a comprehensive tax document, given that the Federal Government at this time is considering other ways of taxing ; whet her or not his government is going to prepare a comprehensive document dealing with all areas of taxation? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: As was indicated in the Budget , we are going to be looking very closely at tax reform within the provincial context over the next coming months , and it will be my intention to have, some time later this year, some information and documents that will be available for public discu ssion lookin g at the question of tax refo rm in Manitoba. Business Development and Tourism - tabling of Annual Report MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

Under the now Minister of Education, the Provincial Audito r says th at the Department of Business Development and Tourism was an example of ineffective management information systems and have not submitted satisfactory Expenditure Estimates data for both 1984-85 and'85-86 . Is it that poor management is the reason the report is late in being tabled? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Minister of Business Development and Tourism. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm pleased to be able to indicate to the member opposite that the report that he's asking for will be tab led, I think, tomorrow.

MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Orders of the Day, I'd like to direct the attention of honourable members to the loge to my right where we have visit ing with us today, Mr. Gordon Fines, who was the CCF MLA from 1949-53 for the constituency of St. Matthews. On behalf of all the membe rs I'd like to welcome you to ·the 'Le9islature fhis afteYnoon. 1139 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Elmwood. MR. J. MALOWAY: Madam Speaker , I request leave of the House to revert to Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees.

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed)

Monday, 23 June, 1986 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. J. MALOWAY: Madam Speaker , I beg to present the Second Report of the Committee on Economic Development. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your Committee met on Thursday, June 19, 1986 at 10:00 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to cons ider the Annual Report and Consolidated Financial Statements of A.E . McKenzie Co. Ltd . Messrs .

Raymond Kives, Chairman of the Board , and Keith Guelpa, President and Chief Exec uti ve Officer provided such inform ation as was requested by Members of the Committee with respect to the financial statements and the business of A.E. McKenzie Co . Ltd. Prior to passing the Annual Report , Your Committee adopted the motion moved by Hon. Mr.

Schroeder "THAT item 10 on page 7 in future not be a part of the Annual Report but be presented separately to the Committee." Your Committe e examined the Annual Repor t and Consolidated Financial Statements as of October 31 , 1985 and 1984, together with Auditor's Report for A.E . McKenzie Co. Ltd ., and adopted the same as presented. All of which is respectfully submitted . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for Elmwood. MR. J. MALOWAY: Madam Speaker , I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Kildonan that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you , Madam Speaker , I have some committee changes. Economic Development - Manness for Connery , Birt for Oleson. Under Statu tory Regulations - Birt for Derkach . SPEAKER'S RULING MADAM SPEAKER: Also, before moving to Orders of the Day, on Friday, June 20th , I took under advisement two po ints of order; one by the Honourable Member for Pembina respecting words spoken by the Minister of Energ y and Mines.

I have peru sed Hans ard and have checked the sound system tapes and the re is no record of the statement referred to, therefore, there is no point of order. Secondly, on a point of order raised by th e Honourable Government House Leader respecting words spoken by the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. I have reviewed Hansard in which th e phrase complained of , attributed to the Honourabl e Member for Fort Garry, does appear. These word s were found to be offensiv e by several membe rs; ther efore , I must ask the Honou rab le Member for Fort Garry to withdraw them. The Honourable Member for For t Garry. MR. C.

BIRT: Madam Speaker , I was respon ding to an allegation by one member of the House on the government side to one of my colleagues , and I was responding in anger. I appreciate th at anger has no place in this Chamber, and I also appreciate , Madam Speake r, that it is not my function to protect the rights of the colleague s in this Chamber; it is your function and your function on ly. For that I apologize for making those stat ements to this Chamber and I withdr aw th ose statemen ts. ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Governm ent House Lead er. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker , perhaps before moving the motion to move us into Committee of Supply , I might indicate to the House that it is our intention to continue with Estim ates , calling bills on Wednesday and Friday of this week, Estimates on the other days, and that there will be a meeting tomorrow morning and Thursday , if required , of the Econo mic Developmen t Committee to review the Report of Flyer Industries ; and that tomorrow evening, by leave , we will be dealing with the bill Statutory Regulati o ns and Order s Committee , as well as having the two Committee s of Estimates sit concurrently.

I now move that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the Hous e resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, seconded by the Minister responsible for Native Affairs . MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows for the Department of Agriculture and the Honourable Member for Kildonan for the Department of Communi ty Services. CONCURRENT COMMITT EES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Committee come to order.

We are dealing with the Estimates on Community Services where we 've left Item 3.(b), Page 33, under 1140

Monday, 23 June, 1986 Resolution 31. The Mini ster has a couple of items she'd like to table. The Min ister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, I did undertake last day to table the statistics on the number of adoptions by year since 1975, and also information on the procedures regard ing letters of approval. That is where the responsibility for licensing residential care facilities is designated to people in the field.

If you recall, we got into a little confusion about the numbers of residential placements that were licensed by the staff and we came down to about just under 200 that were done by the staff in our department and just under 500 that are done by means of the letters of approval. So I have the procedure and the criteria for distribution. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While we are on licensing - and this was a great concern of ours that there was not enough monitoring could be provided ... MR. CHAIRMAN: We're not on licensing. We're on 3.(b). We passed Licensing. MR.

A. BROWN: I realize that, so I was just going to make a comment, because we are receiving the ans wer now, mind you, to some of the questions that were being raised, so I hope that we'll have a little bit of privilege to just make a few comments, and so on . MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure. MR. A. BROWN: . . . that we possibly could have missed because of some of the answers which could not be provided at that particular time. There is quite a concern out there regarding licensing in group homes and it's not only in this department, there were other departments which have group home funding.

We notice that one of the areas which would be so difficult to monitor and to make certain - and this is in the area of nutrition, of food. Some of these group homes are operated and owned by people from backgrounds other than Canadian, and they are used to different menus than what is traditionally Canadian, and therefore there are some serious allegations being made about some of the food which is being served.

I wish that the Mini ster would be able to direct her staff to possibly take a look into some of these cases, where somebody from different background does operate one of these group homes, to make certain that the meals, which are being given, are standard meals and that there is good nutritional value. This is a point of great concern. Now gettin g back to 3.(b), we've been asking questions on this $9 million item in bits and pieces and we've received the details as far as staff is concerned.

I wonder if the Min ister can give us a complete rundown of the $9 million expenditure, so that we know where all the money is going to. 1141 HON. M. SMITH: Yes, with regard to the first comment, it is true that licensing reviews fire, safety and health standards, and that includes nutrition-balanced meals. I think, again, if there are specific concerns that the member has about specific homes, we would welcome that information so we can dou ble-check. Just going out to say that if you're a non-Canadian and you serve non-traditional food, to me, is not a sufficient basis on which to check up.

I think in general the concern is for adequa te nutrition and that can come in a variety of forms. So I think, again, I would invite and encourage the member , if he has concern about specific homes, to alert the department so that we do have a chance to be vigilant and ensure that people are well-nourished. Now back to the main question, I think I did outline in general, last day; however, I will review it quick ly.

The general function of this area is providing for departmental field resources for the people who are deliv eri ng social services, vocat ional rehabil itation services, child and family services, mental retardation services, including the use of public funds by external social service agencies. MR. A. BROWN: That's right, that part we did have. Now I would like to have the amounts of money which were going towards these specific areas. HON. M. SMITH: The salaries budget is as you see in your book.

That covers 286 field staff, the same number as last yea r; 98.5 in the mental retar dation and vocational rehab area; 64 in child and family support; 25 in program support; 15 in family conciliation; 15 in admin istration and management; 11 child day care coordina tors; and 45 clerical support; 9.5 term; and 3 unall ocated from the Manitoba Developmental Centre. That's a gradual shift as the downsizing proceeds. There is, as well, a group of 15 in the agency relations group. There's a director, six coordinators, two financial consultants, four accountant and acc ounting clerks, and two admin istrative clerical.

During the year there will be 18 staff reassigned for Manitoba Developmental Centre to regional operations. They'll be pha sed in as follows: 1 children's care consultant, 4 speech therapists, 10 community services workers and 3 clerical support; for a total of 18. Other expenditures in the area show a slight increase of $78,600.00. These are tor the regional opera ting, furnishing and equipment for the 18 reassigned staff as they are phased in from the Manitoba Developmental Centre to support the Welcome Home thrust. MR. A.

BROWN: When an appropriation is not spent or when we are overspent, where does the money go if it's not spent? I notice that in the year 1984-85, the year ending was $7,92 1 ,000, I believe it was, and the actual expen diture was $8,736,7 00, so there was approxima tely $8 15 ,000 overspent. Was there a special request made fr om the Department of Finance in order to cover this, or where did you get the money? HON. M. SMITH: During the budget process, we identify as closely as we can the expected requirements and the criteria being used to dispense moni es.

If, during the year, the volume of service is up or there are unusual

Monday, 23 June, 1986 circumstances, our Treasury is alerted. Again, some of the expenditure items are open in the sense that if the volume is up, the money is made available. Others, if the expenditure is over budget, there has to be an approach to Treasury and a full justification and, if that is complete, then Treasury puts the extra money into the suppleme ntary warrant. If there is a surplus left in an account, it lapses, so it's not available for the following year. MR. A.

BROWN: Well, it seems to me that when you're on $8,736,000, and when you're almost $1 million out on that, somewhere along the line the budgeting has not been done very carefully . I would like to kn ow. Was there some special circum stance in that particular year that you had to go over, or why could you not be closer than what you actually were? HON. M. SMITH: I think the member is working on last year's budge t where a reconciliation statement would have been subm itted for difference year by year. Sometimes, it's the case of a function being moved in or out of an area.

In some cases in agency relations, it was the tidying of previous ways of funding agencies and the move throughout the entire department has been to get to a much tighter accrual accounting method, so that we're more on top of commitments made as they're occurring. We can quickly identify whether there is a divergence from the budget and move in and see whether it's something that can be remedied or, if not, if it's something that is a genuine emerging need. Again, I can't be specific about the previous year's situation, but I'll be happy to answer anything that shows up in this year's budget. MR. A.

BROWN: Well, I checked the reconciliation statement and I couldn't really find out from the reconciliation statement just exactly what had occurred in that particular year. I would apprec iate it if the Min ister would check back one year to find out why we were out that far. lt will be most helpful to know why the extra $815,000 was needed. HON. M. SMITH: Well, again, I do repeat that the member is referring to a year earlier than the year that we're looking at right now. I say I'm more than happy to give a full accounting of the material in front of us.

I don't know whether the member asked that question last year. I presume if he spotted it then, he would have asked and received a reply. In some cases, there are salary agreements that are not completed at the time of budgeting, and so they are added, but they do become an expenditure during the year, so that in some cases would account for a significant variation. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, sometimes it is necessary for us to go back a year because we see the figure that has been budgeted, but then next year we see the figure that is actually spent �nd that is what I'm referring to.

That is why I am going back one year because we only received those figur,es now. HON. M. SMITH: We'll do our best' to look back. I think the memb er's referring to'84-85 is he not, not'85- 86 or '86-87? MR. A. BROWN: I went back to'84-85 and then' 85-86 and '86-87, and I found that sometimes you had bud geted for more money than what was being spent. This particular one where you were out that far, that was of a particular concern of mine. HON. M. SMITH: Again, if the member could submit to us his specific concern, we'll do our best to look it up.

But I think the time you do get the Annual Report for the year completed, before you deal with the budget for the subsequent year and I think that any such discrepancies are best dealt with in that time context. You'r e taking it back another full year. We do table any adjustments that are made because of shifting programs aro und. We do undertake a reconciliation for your assistance there, but where you're asking to go back and really review the 19 84-85 expenditure, vis-a-vis the 19 85-86 budget and the 1986- 87 budget, I do think that the member may be stretching the privilege of this committee somewhat. MR.

A. BROWN: If I remember correctly, 1984-85, that you had budgeted for about $500,000 more than what you actually used; 1985-86 you were over or you required $815,000 more. Now this is the type of thing that I'm wondering, why did we need $81 5,000 more and where did we really not spend them at that particular time? You can only come up with this - at least you have to go back one year for sure from the actual Estim ates that we're on - before you can actually find out whether the monies were used or not. HON. M. SMITH: Well I did describe the general procedure.

If one is under budget, the money lapses; if one is over budget, one has to go through the treasury process to ensure that the money was in fact spent and it was appropri ately spent, and if that's the case, the money is provided through supple mentary warrant. When going through one's following year budget, one still has to justify any year-over-year increases. I think where the member may be having difficulty is that there was a major adjustment to the 1985-86 printed vote, and that occurred because there were 16 staff that used to be paid directly out of this area.

They provided the Child and Family Services in West Winnipeg. You may recall last day, I described how the Children's Aid Services in Winnip eg were provided partly by Children's Aid East ern, partly by Children's Aid of Winnipeg, who had private boards, and then there was a direct service component in West Winnip eg of 15 people.

Now they were seconded to Child and Family Services, West Winnipeg, took them off the direct government pay roll, seconded them over to - plus another person went to Manitoba Health and that was to accommodate the new mode of Child and Family Service delivery where Winnipeg West now has its own board and hires its own people. This was a seconding of staff currently directly emplo yed by us, over to them. That would have accounted for the major shift. MR. A. BROWN: The Min ister stated that 15 staff were emplo yed by external agencies.

Does this cover all external agencies or are these just some external agencies in the City of Winnipeg? Could the Minis ter elabora te on this? 1142

Monday, 23 June, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: The Child and f"amily Services in Manitoba have had many modes of delivery. Some are by private agencies or community agencies which we fund. Some have been provided directly by government. This adjustment was made only to accommodate the shift in Winnipeg, of direct service in the St James area, from direct delivery by government to delivery by a commun ity-based agen cy.

There are ma ny, many more people inv olved in both di rect deliv ery and in agency deli very than those numbers and there's hundr eds of people involved in the service, but this was the only major shift, year over year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I'm correct, the Min ister said that there would be 18 phased in to this particular opera tion, from the Manitoba Developmental Centre. Is that correct? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, during the year, as the reduction in numbers at MDC enables it.

In other words, we will keep our slightly improving staff plant ratio at MDC and then the extras will be reassigned to regional operations. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Throughout the discussion of the Welcome Home Program and the need for closing the Psychiatric School of Nur sing at Manitoba Developmental Centre, one of the arguments presented by the government was that the psychiatric nursing training was not appropriate for the Welcome Home Program. Why will these 18 people be in appropri ate placements in the Welcome Home Program? HON. M. SMITH: Not all the service at MDC is delivered by psych nur ses.

They are the largest group, but there are many others as well. The group that is being trans ferred are made up of,

(1) Children's Care Consultant ... Correction please. The staff spaces at MDC will become available with the reduction in clients there. In fact, there will be vacancies that will be shifted to the regional service delivery by attrition. They will not be live people; they will be staff years. In their reass ignment we will hire in place of people who would have been hired at MDC - the group that I described - one children's care consultant, 4 speech therapists, 10 community service workers and 3 clerical support. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Just to clarif y, Mr. Chairman.

So we're not talking about actual indi viduals, we're talking about staff years. HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I assume that is what results in the additional $670,000 in salary for this particular

section of the budget. Why is there a corresponding in crease of $745,0 00 in salaries at Manitoba Developmental Centre? HON. M. SMITH: Again, the total salaries change would be a mixture of variations in the staff that we have already and the ones that are added, and acc ommodating salary increases; so there's no one simple factor in the salary figur es, but these are, we think, accurate figures. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)- pass; 3.(b)( 1)-p ass; 3.(b)(2)­ pass. The Min ister of Community Services. HON. M.

SMITH: There is one clarification in that the salary for the 18 staff years will show up in the MDC budget this year, but the bodies, in a sense - not the bodies but the spaces - the staff years will be transferred to Regional Service as the need becomes avai lable. In other words, there'll be a gradual attrition at one end and a tilling of the new service del iverers at the other end. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I'd like a further clarification on that. What you're really saying is that these people will not be located in Winnip eg, they will be located around the field, or in the field? HON. M.

SMITH: They'll be located where they're needed. The salary costs are budgeted in 09 3.(c). The 18 staff will be reassigned during the year to this line and will show up next year, their salari es will show up in this area. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 3.(

c) Manitoba Developmental Centre - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I bel ieve that there was one further question on 3.(b), if I'm right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, sorry about that. The Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure if this is the pla ce to ask this question, maybe the Min ister could confirm to me. If I have any questions about Spite House in North Kildonan, could I ask them at this point? HON. M. SMITH: Under 3.(

d) would be appropriate. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 3. (c) - the Memb er for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: The Manitoba Developmental Centre has been rather a controversial item with us in the last while. I wonder if the Mini ster would care to make a statement on the Manitoba Developmental Centre before we start asking questions? HON. M. SMITH: I did give a fairly lengthy description the other night of the general reasons for the downsizing of institutional care and the increase on the community side. The figures you have in front of you are the salaries and other expenditures.

The salaries represent a net decrease of 7 staff that were transferred - 3 to Government Services and 4 to Manitoba Health. The Government Services ones had to do with grounds 1143

Monday, 23 June, 1986 maintenance people , Government Services , in a sense, carries on that responsibility for us; and the Manitoba Health transfers were the psych nurse school faculty. The operating has been increased by $ 14 ,2 00, transferred from Professional Traini ng . That's to accommodate the psych nurse training that is ongoing. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman , I find th ings rather str ange in this Appropriation .

I believe that there's about 60 of the mentally retarded have been transferred into other com mun ities now, as a result of the Welcome Home Program, 220, in total , I believe by Christmas are supposed to be transferred out of Portage la Prairie into other commu nities, as a res ult of the Welcome Home Progra m; yet, we have an increase of $800,000 in salaries. Now what's going on?

Surely, when you' re going to transfer that many of the mentally retarded out of this par ticu lar facility , out of the Manitoba Developmental Centre, then surely somewhere along the line you will be needing less staff to look after the requirements at the Manitoba Develo pmental Centre. So I wonder if the Minister could tell us what's going on? Why are we going to increase this by $800 ,000.00? HON. M. SMITH: Well this is the other half of what I refer red to earlier. The 18 staff years will gradually be transferred to Regional Services during the year.

The salary for this year shows up here for those 18, nex t year it will show up in the regional operations side and that's because the transfer of the staff years will occur during the year, as the institution downsizes . MR. A. BROWN: How many SY 's do we have over there at the present time? HON. M. SMITH: From 670 to 666. The reason the total is - we talked about the 18 leaving - we 're also improving the staff-client ratio. Perhaps I could just give you the

summary of what has been happening on the population and the staff -resident ratio. As of October 1, 1984, there were 785 residents. There were 726 staff years to look after them. During the year there was a deletion of 9 staff year because the farm was discontinued , leaving 717 staff, therefore, the staff-resident ratio we were working with was 717 staff for 785 residents, or a ratio of .91 . At the end of Phase 1, there will be a reduction of 70 residents and 40 staff. There are other variables.

The transfer of 4 staff years to Health for the Psychiatric Nursing School ; a transfer of 3 SY's to Government Services for grounds maintenance ; an addition of 10 staff years for holiday relief, as a result of the last MGEA contract . At the end of Phase 1, there will therefore be 680 staff year, and that ratio, 680 staff year and 715 residents , will be .95 . This will be the situation approximately now, June , 1986 . At the end of Phase 2, there will be a further reduction of 70 residents and 40 staff years , so we will then have a staff-resident ratio of 640 over 645 or .99.

Based on current information , at the end of Phase 2, there will be a further reduct ion of 70 residents and 40 staff years, leaving us with a final staff-resident ratio of 600 staff to 575 residents or 1.04. MR. A. BROWN: Has the Minister had a cost study done on the entire Manitoba Developmental Centre? It seems to me that, in spite of the fact that 220 of the mentally retarded are going to be going into the community , there really is going to be very little saving at the Manitoba Devel opmental Centre, plus the cost which will be picked up in the communities and the Welcome Home Program.

Has the Minister done any cost study whatsoever , to know just exactly in which direction she is heading with her Welcome Home Program? HON. M. SMITH: The total approach of Welcome Home was not take n to cut money. It was taken to provide a better and more appropriate quality care for the mentally retard ed . So the enrichment in the community is being paralleled by some enrichment at MDC . We do have the sta ffing pattern that I could give you and a fair picture of how staff will be phased out at one and increased at the other . So I feel that we have a reasonably good and complete handle on the costs.

The types of variable that will continue to be there are salary agreements that are negotiated centrally, improvement in things like workshops and residential care per diems and so on , that will gradually occur in the field. So I think we do have a handle on the process and the associated costs. MR. A.

BROWN: Well, I agree wit h the Minister that the Welcome Home Program in certain instances is going to be very successful , and some of these mentally retarded should be moved out into the community and I'm sure that the communities are going to provide for them very well and are going to be looking after them very well. The difficulty is going to be coming when you 're going to get into the more serious cases of mental retardation, then I see all kinds of problems arising and the Minister will have to deal with those , of course, when those problems do arise. But it seems rather strange to me, Mr.

Chairman, that the Minister doesn't really know in which direction she is heading. How much more is it going to cost to look after the mentally retarded because of the Welcome Home Program? Is there going to be a saving? I know last year the Min ister said well she expected there was going to be a considerable saving as a result of the Welcome Home Program, that they would be able to be looked after in the community for less money than they could be looked after at the Manitoba Developmental Centre, so we were loo king forward to this with anticipation that this possibly could be happening as a result of this .

But now we see in the Estimates that this certainly is not going to be occurring. As a matter of fact , we will probably be spending more money as a result of the Welcome Home Program than without it. So I would just like the Minister to justify the monies that she's going to be spend ing at the Manitoba Developmental Centre. HON. M. SMITH: I don 't think we ever justified the Welcome Home as money saving.

What we did argue was that if we kept putting money into institutional care and kept building institutions , that there wouldn't be money available for the community option. 1144 The approach we've taken is that the mentally retarded deserve decent and quality care in the least

Monday, 23 June, 1986 restrictive environment. The peo ple who look after them, whether they're in the community fostering them , whether it's their own fam ily even, or whether it's in an institution also deserve reasonable working conditions and wages . So it' s an attempt to build a system that had efficiency, yes , but quality as well. The open-endedness of care for the mentally retar ded comes from two things: (1) that a lot of families received little or no help before, also (2) that there are more retarded people in the community .

I don 't just mean out of the institutions , there are more in Manitoba for two reasons: (1) more children with retardation are being kept alive because of the progress of medical science ; and (2) more are living longer also because of being bette r able to meet their health needs . Our commitment is to give them good quality and as efficient care as we can consistent with the quality . We never undertook the Welcome Home Program as a cost saver to the public purse per se. Now, in so doing, there were some actions we took which reduced expenditure in one area and increased it somewhere else .

We also have tried to get some kind of rationalization so that we don't have it very underfunded in one community and overfunded in another . It will take some time before all of tha t rationalization and system building is completed. MR. A. BROWN: Well, Mr. Chairman, there were a good number of questions asked on this and I know that there are some other members over here who are anxious to go on the Man itoba Developmental Centre, so I'll turn it over to them to ask their questions and we'll pick it up later on. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm having some difficulty with the reduction of 86 staff members which is the number given for the next 8, 9 months, and an increase in staff budget of $745 ,000 .00. Could I have that reconciled please? HON. M. SMITH: I can appreciate the difficulty of the reconciliations because there are several factors involved . The total figure of increase is $745 ,000 .00. That's made up of the reduction of staff from last year. In a sense, we did the same thing last year. Through the year, we reduced 14. Their salary was in the budge t. This year it shows as a drop-off of 516 .5.

There is a general salary increase of 1,061,500; and vacation relief of 200,000 with 10 new staff years added. It was part of the MGEA agreement and that nets out at 745,000 increase. We've been downsizi ng MDC for - we've already been under way for some time . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I'm still having some problems because, as I read it , the $745 ,000 is a 9 .5 percent increase in salary. Now, if you're saying that the increase in salary level is accounting to som e $1 million , what kind of salary raises are they getting there? HON. M. SMITH: They 're with the MGEA and they're on the same agreement as everyone else.

There are the 700-plus staff the re, 700 to 800 staff . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: The MGEA got what , 3.5 percent , 4 percent rai se? How do we get 9.5? HON. M. SMITH: There wer e 10 new staff years put in, their basic salari es, plus for vacation relief. In other words , that was part of the negotiated agreement. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: So essentially we're not really seeing the reduction of 86 staff years in this salary figure? HON. M. SMITH: 86; where did 86 come from? MRS. S. CARSTAIR S: Well, you to ld me that the staff was 726 and now it's going to be 640. HON. M.

SMITH: I was describing the different phases of Welcome Home and projecting into the future . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: But are they not all to take place by January 1 of 1987? HON. M. SMITH : No, in a sense, the re's a year lag. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Well , Madam Minister, I have read a numb er of your statements and you have ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. Could you direct your comments through the Chair . I think we're getting a little out of order here . It shou ld be directed through the Chair. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr.

Chairman , the press releases of the Minister have indicated that there will be 220 less residents at the Manitoba Development al Centre by January 1, 1987. I assumed that those wer e the figures that she was giving when she was decreasing from 785 to 575, with a decrease in staff years from 726 to 640 . HON. M. SMITH: I think the problem is because there's a one -year lag. The staff are laid off during the year and the salary adjustment doesn 't show up until the following year, the staff reduction , and the reduction comes through attrition. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr.

Chairman , that's very true, but this budget goes unt il March 31 , 1987. Surely, by that time, we should be beginning to see some changes in the salaries . Yet we have seen an increase in this budget of $745 ,000.00. HON. M. SMITH: I think the reason is because we have been doin g som e enrichment in staff at MDC at the same time, and also because of the vacation relief element . In a sense , we've had more staff on to cover the 24-hour care . If the underlying quest ion is what is the expected movement out of MDC , I do have the Community Residents Development information .

At the momen t, we're seeing a tota l movement of 210; 69 to date , and the remainder in the next nine months , or eig ht months . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman , let me make it perfectly clear, I wouldn 't have any difficu lty with no staff reducti ons at the Man itoba Developmental Centre at all , in order to enhance the care which the residents 1145

Monday, 23 June, 1986 receive there. However, I'm still having some difficulty reconciling numb ers. However , to move on to another issue, can the Min ister explain why the per diem rate at the Manitoba Developmental Centre is significantly less than that paid to St. Amant? HON. M. SMITH: The re' s no easy answ er. lt's a historical difference that has evolved, I think partly because of Community Services patterns in the past, where services tended to get funded in an ad hoc way in response to particular community groups and there wasn't the same attention paid to equity across the system.

In a sense, it's to try and reduce some of those inequities over time and develop more appropria te service, that we've undertaken the kind of thrust that we have. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, can the Min ister tell me when the per diem rate at the Manitoba Developmental Centre will equal that of St. Amant? HON. M. SMITH: I can't give a date. I think the closing of the gap and the equalization of service is important. We're also und ertaking cooperative planning with St. Amant. Fewer children are going in there now.

They've dealt with very difficult multipl y-disabled youngsters, so that even their constellation of service may alter. I think the effort from the department's stand is to get more comparabilit y, but I can't give you an exact target date for equalization. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, although the Min ister has anno unced that there's a $2.7 million physical facility centre that will be built at the Manitoba Developmental Centre, there is no capital budget for this department. From what department can we expect that to be paid? HON. M.

SMITH: Government Services customarily budgets for government-wide capital. They also pick up some of the maint enance heating costs of an institution like MDC - they pick up all of those costs - so that in a sense, the comparabil ity of the per diems between St. Amant and MDC - they appear more discrepant than they actually are. lt may not be - it's not the only way, obviously, to display costs but that's been the pattern in government. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

One of the concerns that I raised in the Legislature with regard to the new physical facility centre and basically the programs that will come from that centre, was the difficulty of transportation of residents from their Manitoba Developmental housing or buildings, to the facility centre.

In speaking with staff, there seems to be a grave concern that as the level of abil ity of the mentall y-retarded at the MDC declines - that is not the purpose of Welcome Home and I recogn ize that, but everyone seems to agree that it is easier to place those who are less profoundly retarded and, therefore, those are the ones who are getting pla ced first - that there is a great deal of difficulty in accessing that new centre which is to be built.

The staff are concerned about the win ter, when they will have to dress the residents, get them to the centre through snow and whatever, and then undr ess them upon their return, and that there isn't sufficient staff or time to in fact get them to the centre, and that they would have preferred to have seen activity centres placed throughout the Manitoba Developmental Centre, instead of one major centre. Can the Minis ter explain the rationale behind this particular centre? HON. M. SMITH: I appreciate when any building is being designed tha t there are ma ny di fferent configurations that can be looked at.

I suppose one could argue that the whole MDC should be under one roof or that the cafeterias should all be in one place. There are many variables. We haven't heard that particular concern expressed by staff . We do kno w that there is some act ual therapeutic value in people getting a breath of outdoor air . lt may in fact require a little extra coat or cover, but the land is very flat, walks are shoveled, there is reasonable access.

Since one of the goals is often to have people in as nor maliz ed a setting as is possible, having some break in the day where you sort of go out to something that is equivalent to work and a different environment and then return for a meal, or certainly to sleep, may itself add some thin g to the lives of people. There are wheelchairs and so on and, of course, having enough people to push them and not overworking staff is something we're concerned about too, but it's not been a concern that's emerged during the planning process.

I appreciate the member thinks it's a major concern , and we may just have to ag ree to differ, but she has sensitized us to the issue. If we hear any concern, we'll do our best to listen to it and certainly ensure that the building has good access. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I was interested in the fact that the Minis ter mentioned food services. In fact, the food services are located in each and every one of the units at the Manitoba Deve lopmenta l Centre, tha t the individuals do not have to go to common places for food, the food comes to them.

That I guess is the reason why I questioned whether activities shouldn't go to them as well instead of distributing them out. Can the Mini ster give me some idea of when this centre will be com pleted and what kind of additional staff are they looking to in that particular centre? HON. M. SMITH: The expected date of completion would be summer '87. The staffing complement, we're not looking for significantly different staffing other than the gra dual im provement in the ratio.

People do undertake some type of day programming and some type of vocational activity now, and this should just enhance the type of programming that's possible. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I know there are others who have questions about the Manitoba Developmental Centre so I will pa ss them on. I would just like to make this comment that I think a trip to the Manitoba Developmental Centre should be compulsory for every single ML A at least once every four years and then the Centre would not look the way it looks at the present time. 1146

Monday, 23 June, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Nia kwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I hope that some of the points that I'm going to bring up, particularly on the Manitoba Developmental Centre at Portage, will not be repetitive, although I'v e not had occasion to be at this committee meeting previous to now. I'm not going to get down to the point of dollars and cents, things of that nature.

I don't think the Min ister and the Government of the Province of Manitoba are correct in their assu mption that if they moved the psychiatric school or they close down the psychiatric school, it's going to benefit any group at all. I can't see it benefiting any group at all, in asmuch as the Min ister has never , ever, to my kno wledge, been criticized for allowing the psychiatric school or the residence to remain at Portage la Prairie. If there's any criticism, it would be not for money spent but for money not spent.

So I think the Min ister is making a big mistake in making these changes at Portage la Prairie, particularly agains t every recommendation that's been made from everybody else. I don't know where the Mini ster is getting her information, her recommendations, but I would tell her right now I think that she's making a mistake. I've had the opportunity of visiting at Portage la Prairie, going through the school in pretty good detail. lt's an emotional issue, this school. I'm not really just talking about the nur ses at this point; I'm talking about the residents there.

I think it's most important that before a decision is made, that everybody who has anything to do with making that decision should visit the home. I'm not trying to put myself on a pedestal and say I thought enough of the situation to go out and visit the home, but I did. I would hope that the Mini ster's colleagues would go through the same thing rather than just listen to the people who are making the recommenda tion to the Mini ster and the Minis ter herself. I have known in the past where in my area we've had some - I guess the term "m entally retarded" is sort of an all-encompassing term.

I think I would like to say these people are special people rather than mentally retarded and lump them all into special people. it's a more acceptable terminolo gy to me. But we had some special people, some special students in my area that had to change from one school to another because of different school programs. I kno w how it affects them, these changes, having to go from one location to anoth er.

The security of knowing their routine and the security of the regular procedure is like therapy for a lot of these people, and I think the Minis ter has not taken that into consideration by suggesting that some of the special people be moved out of the home at Portage into town into special homes. I can see some benefit from it, but I can see more bad things coming from it. I know with older people you can't take away the security of residence and moving them around from one place to anoth er.

I'v e had a particular case where this has been a fact, where somebody at my home didn' t have the security of knowing where they were going to five and finally they did have that security, it brought their mental state around to a point where it was quite acceptable. lt was 1147 quite normal and quite acceptable. So I think the Min ister, through some recommendations, is playing with something that's going to have far reaching effects.

I give the Minis ter fair warning right now that if anything comes of this, and if it's just a matter of saving dollars, I just can't see why these changes are taking place at this point because if it's a matter of criticism later, and I certainly will stand up and I' ll criticize the Minis ter pretty severely , and I' ll criticize all of the New Democrats for supporting . . . MR. A. BROWN: They've got it coming, Abe; they've got it coming. MR. A. KOVNATS: I mean it; it's a point of . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. A. KOVNATS: Yes, that's right; I've got the floor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think that we have to reconsider these things, and I don't know how long these recommendations have been in front of the Min ister, but I think she's moving too quickly. I would be right there to say if she wasn't moving quickly enough, but in this case I think she's moving too quickly and accepting the reports of people who don't make these reports from the heart, and I think that this is where the New Democratic Party government is losing some of the support that they've had around the province. They're not dealing from the heart; they're strongly looking at dolla rs and cents. And do you know what?

You can't cut down on service just for the sake of trying to show the people in the Province of Manitoba and the public that you are guarding their monies wisely; you've got to deaf somewhat with the heart and I don't think that the Mini ster is dealing at all from the heart here at all, and giving the proper consideration to the people at the home, the nu rses, the residents of Portage fa Prairie and all the people of the Province of Ma nitoba. HON. M.

SMITH: I thank the memb er for his contribution and I guess all I can say is not all hearts beat with quite the same pace, and not all heads have exactly the same idea as to what's good for people. I ackno wledge that if you take away the necessary supports for people and put them in a state of fear or disorientation that's a bad thing, but I also say that if you put them in too restrictive an environment, treat them as patients all their fives and don't give them adequate stimulus and opportunity to develop within their range of capacity , that you perform an equally unsupportable act on them.

So I maintain that we're moving carefully; we are building balance into the system and it's a responsible attitude. There is more resource going in. it's not easily accessed and it's not an inordi nate amount but it is there to provide adequate continuous services for people. I'd just like to say a bit on the nursing school because I do think there should be on the record the perspective that we brought to this.

We're not in the job of only educating professionals or para-professi onals when sufficiently skilled staff are not otherwise available to provide care to our target populations. it's not the Commu nity Services

Monday, 23 June, 1986 Department's responsibility to provide the education programs when they can be provided to the regular education system including colleges and uni versities because they also have a role. The cur riculum at the Manitoba Devel opmenta l Centre is not unique to North America; other provinces in Canada have schools of P sychiatric Nursing where they don't have this specific discipline but there's often an equivalent training program.

The courses that were previously offered at MDC were unique in Manitoba, that were unique, like behaviour modification, will be offered at the two other centres because we 'r e consolidating the training, not eliminating it. A faculty member from the Manitoba Developmental Centre has been in volved in developing and monitoring the new courses. The education component at the MDC hasn't been eliminated, only the responsibilit y for delivery has been transferred.

There still will be opportunity for hands­ on experience and specialization in work ing with the developmentally handicapped, and will still be available through practicum placements. Historically, the three nursing schools have gradua ted between 20 and 25 students a year. In September 1985 when students were no longer being accepted at MDC, Selkirk and Brandon increased enrollment to 35 and 33, respectively. The same number of students will be trained in two centres as was the case when all thr ee were in operation.

With the downsizing of the centre, there will be a surplus of psychiatric nur ses until 1988 or '89. The need for such personnel in the institution and in the community is being closely monitored. The department continues to be an emplo yer of psychiatric nur ses but believes that the care of the mentally hand icapped requires a range of skills and people, only some of whom will need to be nurses. Mentally handicapped persons are not necessarily sick or psychiatrically disabled; they require a variety of disciplines and skills to provide adequate support.

We ag ree tha t the basic training program for psychiatric nur ses under any auspices should assure competencies to deal with the mentally ill as well as the mentally handicapped. it's a more generic approach to training and it'll provide gradua tes with portable skills that can be utilized in a variety of treatment and employment settings. To date, the centre's had little trouble attracting qual ified gradu ates at its own program. With practicum placements at the centre being made available there should continue to be no shortage of qualified personnel with the specialized skills available.

There's no reason to belie ve that cons olidating the training will compromise the quality . The impl ication that the centre residents will be placed in abusi ve situations under the care of poorly trained workers is a di rect and uns ub stantiated criticism with the ins tructors and the curriculum in the two existing training programs. Reports from other provinces ind icate to us that nurses with a specialty in psy chiatric training represent the mi nority of staff in direct service delivery in their institutions, and especially in the community nurses generally provide the health care.

In 1984-85, the full year of cost of operating the Developmental Centre Trai ning Program was $332,000. In 1985-86, the allocation was reduced to $234,300, 1148 resulting in a $97,700 net saving to government. This savi ng was ach ieved through a reducti on in the operating costs, no SY's were deleted. In 198 6-87, the tota l cost to gov ernme nt will be approxima tely $1 79,800, of which $13 8,200 was transferred to Manitoba Health for four SY's. This ind icates a further saving of $54,500 to be achieved this year, including the phasing out of three instructor positions.

Now again, that's the background on the nurse training. I think I've already commented on the general thrust. Again we have asked the community people and the many vol un teers, there are hu ndr eds proba bly app roaching thousands of people, who are involved now, through their community volunteer groups on boards, providing enriched programming and supports, and they will also be available to signal any particular problems or difficulties. We need the community to help us in monitoring the effectiveness of the program. MR. A.

KOVNATS: I thank the Minis ter very, very much for the statement that she has just made. There were a lot of facts and figures but we never really got down to wha t it was about. You can prep are all these statements and hand them out and keep reading them and it doesn't get down to the actual point that I was trying to get across. Maybe I'm not competent enough to get the point across but I'm going to try again. Is there no feeling for the insecurity of these patients? And I don't want to be cited a bunch of figures, that's not what I'm asking.

I'm talking about the security of these people who are being put out into the community and it scares the hell out of them. Are we prepared to do that just for the sake of saving a few dollars and to accept some recommendations that were made by whoever it was, and I don't know who it was, but I'm bringing in the point again. The Min ister, it's going to rest on her shoulders and her responsibility and God help these kids; I think they're the ones who are going to be suffe ring, and I thin k the Min ister should reconsider. HON. M.

SMITH: There are many people who go and get involved in these residential care services and the daily services, who very much care about the feelings of the ind ividuals and their security. But human beings don't always thrive if they're in protected cotton-wool settings eit her. They need, in dif ferent de grees, depending on their stage of development and ability; they need challenge; they need stimulus; they need variety; they need a sense of belonging.

I invite the member to come along with me when we have more time available to visit some of these residences, to review 24 hour planning, to see the types of supports and the quality of life available to people who have moved out of an institutional setting. I've had people visit from Ontario who thems elves are retarded, who were in institutions for one reason or anot her, and have found through the Ontario leadership in this area the opportunity to live in the communit y.

I ha ve listened to them and I've heard the feelings and the intense involvement that they feel in terms of what people with mental disabilities are capable of experien cing. They have told me that by living side by side with people who often couldn't talk or express themselves in the usual way, nonetheless, these people

Monday, 23 June, 1986 had feelings. They responded to being given choices. They responded to having stimulus, to having variety in their day, and their plea to us is to enrich the range of opportunities and choices for people who won't have to go into institutional living and for increasing numbers to leave institutions. We've never said that it could work for everyone and the personal security of each person is important, but a hospital-like setting is not the only place where these securities can be provided. MR. A. KOVNATS: I thank the Honour able Minis ter. That response ap peared to come from the heart.

I would like to just ask the Min ister a couple of other very minor ques tions at this point, but impo rtant questions. Psychiatric services for the patients at the Manitoba Developmental Centre at Portage la Prairie, is it adequate or are we still sending patients from the Home at Portage into Winn ipeg for psy chia tric treatment? HON. M. SMITH: Again, I guess I'm having a little trouble with the definition of what you're meaning by psychiatric treatment.

Are you saying when there's profound ment al illne ss accompanying ment al retardation can we provide appropriate treatment at Portage or do they come to Winnipeg? MR. A. KOVNATS: Yes. Do we have any cases out at Portage that require special treatment that would have to be taken from Portage to Winnipeg or any other place where there was psychiatric services available to the point where we might have to transfer them out of Portage la Prairie for special psychiatric treatment to Selkirk or some other place where there are the psychiatric services? HON. M. SMITH: We haven't had a resident psychiatrist at MDC.

We have delivered psychiatric treatment there in consultation with psychiat ry. MR. A. KOVNATS: I wasn't sure whether the Min ister had comple ted her statement or not. MR. CHAIRMAN: Neither was I. HON. M. SMITH: I had nothing more to say so I shut up. MR. A. KOVNATS: To the Honour able Min ister, the advantage of wearing a hearing piece right here, I could hear some discussion and I thought there was some more information being imp arted to the Minis ter and it never came through. I couldn't quite make out what her assistant was mentioning to her.

I can see the coming down of this whole system at Portage la Prairie som ewhere in the future. I think the natural outcome out of it is that the home will be reduced to almost nothing, and something that had been such a great asset to the community somewhere in the future will be just a bunch of empty buildings there and not being able to provide the services that they were intended to be provided. If's kind of a sad state.

I've changed my attitude toward the Min ister now and if I had said something that was a little bit out of line, I apolog ize because I know it's the Mini ster's intention to deal from the heart and I hope that she won't be guided just by dollars and cents. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERV: If I can echo the sentiments that the Member for Niakwa put through, I think you can be assured that if you go to the Min ister you'll always get an audience, but that is all you get.

Anybody that goes to the Min ister gets an audience and anything that is said is never registered and is never part of the package or the plan. The die is cast and n othing is going to change no matter what facts or figures. They don't want to be baffled by facts. They're just going to carry on in the way they're going. I'd like the Min ister to tell me what services are provided at the Manitoba Developmental Centre by the staff? What various services? HON. M.

SMITH: Well, the 24 hour service supervision with cleanliness and feeding and clothing; medical services; some therapies; some sp eech heari ng therapies; some vocational; some educa tional. The programs have never been at the stage where I'd feel that everyone was getting the most that they could, but that's the range, some recreational activity. MR. E. CONNERV: What kind of therapies are they getting and what number of therapists are at the school? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, again, I'v e given the main types of service.

We can get a breakdown of the staffing in a few minutes, but I don't have it available in front of me at the moment. MR. E. CONNERV: You talked about hairdressing being av ailable, there's physiotherapy . Is this a water treatment type therapy or what type of physiotherapy do they get at the school? Would this be included with hot water pools and that sort of thing? HON. M. SMITH: I'll have that information for you in a few minutes. I don't have it just at the moment. MR. E. CONNERV: Well, while she's getting that then, I'll go to another area. I missed the very beginning. The num bers of staff we have.

Did they break out the admini strative staff; how many there are in admin istration as compared to the floor staff? HON. M. SMITH: I could provide that information this evening. I don't have it to hand just at the moment. MR. E. CONNERV: I'm talking about admin istrative staff. If's difficult to carry on a line of questioning when we're going to get the information, how do we go, jump around to 14 different items and come back to them all tonight?

Why are so many of the administr ative staff living in Winnipeg and not living in Portage where they could be part of the commun ity and feel a better feeling toward the Manitoba Developmental Centre? 1149

Monday, 23 June, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: I apprecia te the problem that the member referred to first. How do we handle this item if the information doesn't come till later? We' ll certainly be acco mmodating here in terms of what items we deal with now and would be willing to return to any item that wasn 't dealt with fully later tonight. With regard to the staff and where they live, there is a recru iting practice that looks for the best qualified person for the job, and it's been the policy that where staff choose to live is their own personal business.

If they choose to commute and take that time and expense on their own shoulders, then they're entitled to that. They aren 't 24-hour live-in staff. They'r e expected to work their hours and, certain ly, if they were at the very senior level, to be on call, or someone equivalent would have to be on call; but, basically, where staff live is their own business. MR. E. CONNERY: The Minister is aware of three or four years ago, when I don't know if they called it West Cold Storage at that time, but there was a large explosion and a huge fire and people had to be evacuat ed.

Is there not a conc ern tha t senior admin istrative people won't be available on short notice, and Winnip eg is - you can't get there in less than an hour no matter where you live. Is there not a concern that there could be some real hazards occur because these admin istrative people aren't there? I gather there's a significant numb er of the top admin istrative people who do live in Winnipeg. Does the Min ister know? HON. M.

SMITH: Again, I think the responsibil ity of senior staff is to ensure that there is a senior person responsible and available on call, but that can be ac commoda ted through quite a variety of living arrangements. I think so long as senior staff are avai lable, that is the limit of their responsibil ity. MR. E. CONNERY: Does the Min ister know how many of the admin istrative staff live in Winnipeg, or outside of Portage, to some degree? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Perhaps I could suggest to the member that I think this line of questioning is somewhat external to the competence of the Min ister to determine the personal pla ce of residence of staff mem bers in a department. I think that it's not in line with the budget, and I would suggest if it's not out of order it would be optional because it's certainly very close to being outside the compe tence of the Minis ter. MR. E. CONNERY: When you're dealing with the safety of a facil ity, I think it has to be the competence of the Mini ster to know who is going to be the backup staff in the case of an emergen cy. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I think that's an appropriate question. MR. E. CONNERY: That's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Your question was dealing with where does the staff reside? 1150 MR. E. CONNERY: Because it was leading up to how could there be somebody senior in position to make some very, very needy decisions right now. MR. CHAIRMAN: If that's the question, it's appropriate. The Min ister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: I think I answered that.

I said the responsibility of the admin istration is to ensure that there are senior people avai lable 24 hours a day. lt need n't be the same senior person, but that there is someone with the authority. Where they live, I think, is a secondary factor and not within the right, real ly, of a government department to dictate. MR. E.

CONNERY: The Min ister just finished saying a few minutes ago that they were not 24-hour type staff, they are admin istrators who come at nine and go at five, or whatever their times are; so I would say that there's a high number of the senior admin istrative staff that are not avai lable for 16 hours or 17 hours of the day. HON. M. SMITH: In any shift-staffed institution, there are probably fewer people in the night shift than in the afternoon or the day shift. That doesn't mean that there isn't a senior responsible person on and appropria te delega ted authority to the needs of what's going on at those hours.

MR. E. CONNERY: I am gathering then that the Minister refuses to tell us who of the senior adminis trators do not live in Portage. Is that correct? MR. CHAIRMAN: I suggested to the member that the residence of the staff members is not an appropriate question, is not in order. The question of whether or not adequa te services are being provided 24 hours a day and adminis trative people are available is in order. To ask the residences of members of the min isterial staff is not in order and I will not entertain that question. If the member has another question, please state it. MR. E.

CONNER Y: Ho w are we to judge the competency of the people who are there if we don't know who's there? I think that is a legitimate question and I think it should be answered. MR. CHAIRMAN: If the question . MR. E. CONNERY: We're talking of the lives of some 700 ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. If the member wishes to know what staff are there at what times, I think that question is legitima te; and if that is the question being asked, rather than where indi viduals live, I think that is an approp riate question and in order.

I am suggesting to ask where indi viduals live is not in order; the question then is what staff are avai lable, senior admin istrative staff, and when. The Min ister of Commun ity Services. HON. M. SMITH: I can unde rtake to get that information for you.

Monday, 23 June, 1986 MR. E. CONNERY: When would we have that information? HON. M. SMITH: We said we could get it this afternoon; but if we're breaking at 4:30, I think it's probably more reasonable to make it avai lable tonight. MR. E. CONNERY: There's a feeling of the workers and the staff of the mo rale at the Manitoba Developmental Centre from the people that I have talked to, including shop stewards from the union and so forth, that there is a very low degree of morale at this time. There are many areas why they believe there's a low morale.

One of them is - and I can't believe that this can happen - the numb er of people who are on term employment. I'd like the Mini ster to tell us how many people at the MDC are on term employment and what is the length of their term. HON. M. SMITH: I' ll und ertake to get that information tor you. Large institutions in the government area are usually staffed with a combination of permanent staff and term, and the term is usually based on what the variable needs are. I know, for example, at Head ingle y, we have a combination of full time and term, but I'l l obtain that information for the mem ber. MR. E.

CONNERY: I am told that there are people who have been working at the MDC tor as long as two years - and maybe there's some longer - and they'v e been working on two-week terms. They're only renewed every two weeks. Is this true? HON. M. SMTIH: Because I have part of the information now, but not all, I think it would be better if I just wait and bring it together as a unit. MR. E. CONNERY: Then we'll go into, I guess it's going to be in two places, with the Salaries and the Other Expenses, the conditions at the centre have deteriorated with, what I'm told, is severe overcrowd ing.

The staff and residents, because they're overcrowded, are in much closer confines, there's a lot more edginess and int er-rela tionship because of the clos ene ss, and especially with some of the more aggressive ones, that the staff are having a much more difficult time and the morale is low because of that. HON. M. SMITH: We have currently 710 in mates at MDC, in the same space that used to accommodate almost 1, 100. The staffing patterns have been gradually improving, rather than going down.

I think some of the understandable morale issues can relate to people who have worked in an institution and seen that as the dominant mode of service delivery, and who, without direct experience in an alternative way of caring for the retarded, naturally feel a loyalty to their in stitut ion. Ma ny people wor king in an institutional setting think that downsizing is somehow failure, and maybe that's a part of our socie ty's tendency, to look at bigness and growth always as better and smallness or phasing down is always failure. As I say, I think that's understandable.

I can also see it from the point of view of the town because they may see a reduction in what was a very important service industry for that town. All those things are unde rstandable. But I think the policy issue before us, as Manitobans, and certainly us as government, is what is the best type of care, with today's kno wledge and in sight and expectations, for mentally-handi capped people. I think that's the issue we have to keep to the fore and then, if necessar y, make the appropria te adjustments in the institutional part of the total service continuum.

Institutional care, as tar as I can see, will continue to be required. I certainly haven't made a jump in my own thinking that it should be elimi nated compl etely. I do know that in some jurisdictions, as I was saying the other day, in New Brunswick, the Minister just closed down an institution that was larger than this one, virtually within a year. lt was in her riding and she just closed it down. Now, I don't know what services exist in the community there. This is a trend that has been going on in Ontario for quite some time.

I'm not an expert on what's going on throughout the rest of the world, but I think you'll find that one of the reasons for it, as I stated last week, was the very learn ing that had gone in the institution about how to train and work with the mentally retarded. They now are seen to have more capacity for learning and enjoyment of life, and satisfac tion, tha n was previously thought to be the case. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30, I'm going to interrupt proceedings for Private Mem bers' Hour. The committee will return at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY -AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Commit tee please come to order.

This

section of the Committee of Supply has been considering the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. We are currently on Item No. 5.(g)( 1), Manitoba Water Services Board, Salaries. 1151 The Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, before we begin responding to some questions that wE'ire raised on the Water Services Board, I have a reply to a question that the Member for Portage, although he's not here, raised about Plains Potatoes at Portage la Prairie applying for a federal grant under the Fruit and Vegetable Storage Construction Assistance Program.

I'm advised that their application was rejected due to concerns of the engine ers in Agriculture Canada over the method in which pressure-treated lumber was in stalled in the repaired roof. The opinion of the engi neering specialist in our department is that the design of the roof renovation, although in novative, is a realistic design which attempts to deal with the problems of wood decay, of providing an economical structure with a reasonable lifespan.

Because of the manner in which the treated lumber was in stalled, precautions were taken which were consi dered adequate to prevent any possible contamination of the potatoes. At present, Agriculture Canada has agreed to hold over the necessary funds pending a review of the situa tion. Our own engine ers prepared and forwarded an extensive report to justify

Monday, 23 June, 1986 the renovation design. The engine ers, with Ag Canada, are reviewing the report and we are presently waiting for a reply from them. I am assu ming that honourable mem bers will pass that information on to the Mem ber for Portage and then he can be advised of that. As well, Mr. Chairman, going back to the Manitoba Water Services Board, the Member for Springfield raised a question dealing with the matter of Landmark the other day in the House, and previou sly, about sewer and water.

I gather he's not here, but I want to provide some information for the record so that honourable members can share it with him about commitments made to the R.M. of Tache for the Landmark project. I want to ind icate that the construction of the Landmark project will be comple ted this year unless, of course, it is delayed by the R.M. of Tache. There's only one contract for service connections to be awarded for the Landmark project. The services connections have been tendered by the Manitoba Water Services Board and the board is prepared to award the tender to the low bidder.

I understand that the R.M. of Tache has requested the Manitoba Water Services Board to award the tender to the second-low bid rather than the low bid. Mr. Chairman, I ask you, I hope that the honourable member not suggest that I be so lax as Min ister that I allow the staff to ignore the public tender process and award tender s to other than the low bid indi scrim ina tely. Granted , we can and have, upon occasion, awarded tenders to other than the low bid, but there is a procedure to follow to ensure the best interests of the taxpayers are met and that procedure is now under way.

In sum mary, any further delay on Tache will be the results of only any position taken by the A. M. council. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Under the cash flow proposals, how is anyone to follow the route that the Jobs Fund monies will be taking in going into the water services area? A year ago, it would appear that it was designated in which areas those funds were going. Will those projects be identified on site, then, or is that money being put into a general cash flow in this area, or how are those funds being handled? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the projects that are listed on the Jobs Fund are, in fact, projects that are being final ized through the Jobs Fund. Additional funds for this year were not put as an addition into water services projects. If there is a need for an additional budget for the Water Services Board, we would have to go back to our own approval mechanism and ask for, in terms of monies, in our regular program. The Jobs Fund monies that are shown there in terms of budget are in fact works that have already been undertaken and these are the finishing touches of those. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not sure I can follow the Minister's reply. Is he saying in the 19 86 budget, as has been given to us, and I appreciate the information that's been given, is he saying that there's no Jobs Fund money included at this point? I'm not 1152 talking about projects. As he explained, the projects that have been started with the Jobs Funds are deline ated separately. I guess I'm referring to the statement on the bottom of the last page where it says funds required for Jobs Fund projects are shown under regular program cash flow. I can accept that statement, but how is there an accou nting of that?

Is it being delineated into certain projects or is it part of the total? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in terms of any monie s that we might receive from the Jobs Fund, they would be specifically related to certain projects like, for example, the Neepawa project would be a Jobs Fund request over and above any regular budget, as an example. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Perhaps the Min ister may not wish to become in volved in my next question, given as it's a procedure that I'm concerned about. lt was pointed out in Public Accounts, I believe by Mr.

Jackson, that there was a lack of legislative control on how the Jobs Fund monies were allocated. Who, in fact, will make the decision on Jobs Fund monies going into Water Services? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in terms of actual determination, there is an application that would be made by Ma nitoba Water Services, through my department, to Treasury Board, and they would review whether or not those projects qua lify under the Jobs Fund or, in fact, whether or not they should be funded through our regular budget.

Most of those projects, initia lly, that are shown on the final page, Jobs Fund, were a process that went through Treasury Board, our own board, to try and delin eate and ind icate which projects might have some Jobs Fu nd application in terms of community betterment and the like, although one could, of course, put the argument that it might be difficult at some time to make a clear delineation. What we did attempt to do is not to mix projects. I don't think we've mixed. We tried to delineate the Jobs Fund projects from the regular budget so that there would not be, in fact, a mix of money per se. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: I gu ess this would be an appropriate place, then, for me to perhaps put my thoughts on record as much as asking the Min ister a question at this point. it seems to me that, following that system, the Jobs Fund dollars necessarily become a supplement to the budget of Water Services or any other department where the funds are delineated, not to prolong it. But would it not be more practical for the departments to have applied for sufficient funds to cover their projects, rather than have to involve the Jobs Fund project? - (I nterjection) - I'll leave it there.

There's an obvious difference of procedure between our two philosophies. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(g) (1) - pass ; 5. (g) (2) (0ther Expenditur es)-pass. 5.(h)

(1) Agricultural Crown Lands Branch: Salaries - the Minister of Agriculture.

Monday, 23 June, 1986 HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , if there are any specific questions that honourable members may wish to put , in the meantime, our Director of Crown Land s who I think members would know, previously the regional director for the southwest region out of Brandon , John Neabel will be joining us, and he is the Director of Crown Lands , if members would like to begin, following on information that they received earlier. Membe rs can in fact start raising those questions. John is joining us now and we can proceed with a review of the Crown Lands Branch . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden . MR.

G. FINDLAY: Mr. Chairman, I don't recall receiving any advance information the Minister mentioned. If he has that advance information, if he'd distribute it now, I guess I'd like some ideas of the number of staff breakdown, and start in that way. HON. B. URUSKI: Sorry , Mr. Chairman , I should have in fact done that.

Crown Lands Branch, staff years , total 44.36 ; Branch Administration , 15; Advisory Committee, 1 staff to the advisory committee; Field Service Supervision, 3.1 5; Eastern District , 7.21; Western District , 14; Agri Land Planning Management, 4, for a total of 44.36, as the staff complement for the Crown Lands staff. MR. G. FINDLAY: What is the present system for granting leases and administering those leases? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , there are a numb er of leases which the branch administers and, of course , I can probably provide the honourable member with some statistical information.

I think members should know that the total Manitob a land base is set at 135.5 million acres . That's the entire land base , of which 114 million acres is Crown land and 21.2 million acres privately held ; and the breakdown of the utilization by resource use: provincial parks take up 3.53 million acres ; wildlife management areas, 7.3 million acres; provincial forests, 3.95 million acres; agricultural Crown lands, 1.9 million acres.

The various types of lease - and before I go into it I'll give the honourable member the breakdown - in 1985, there were 2,641 leases under forage lease, accommodating 1.5 million acres ; 238 leases, these would be cash rental agricultural lease - and I'll go into the description of each lease after I give you the numbers - giving a total of 60,118 acres; renewable hay permits , 1,211 leases or permits, 159,193 acres ; casual hay perm its, 452 , 59,695 acres; casual grazin g permits. 210 , 22,231 acres.

A forage lease , with a term of from 1 to 47 year s consists of one or more parcels of land which are used for grazing or hay production . The lessee is eligible for benefits under the Crown Land Improvement Program. A cash rental agricultural lease with a term of five years, renewable for further terms of five years , is used for annual cropping . The lessee is eligible for benefits under the Crown Land Improvement Program. A renewable hay permit with a term of one year and renewable for further one-year terms is used for hay harvesting.

The permittee is not eligible for benefits under the Crown Land Improvement Program. A casual hay permit , with a term of one year, is not renewable. It is used for hay harvest on lands w