April 10,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLII No. 16

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Dicks): Order, please!

On behalf of hon. members I would like to welcome to the

public galleries a delegation from the community of Francois compromising people

from the Local Service District and Transportation Committee. They would be Mr.

George Durnford, Darryl Marsden, Aubrey Greene, Colin Greene, and Kevin

Strickland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have some questions for the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs, some serious questions about a serious matter that has

surfaced over the last number of days. I think it would be an understatement to

say that previous Budgets introduced by this government, and certainly the 1995

Budget, recently introduced, show little support for rural Newfoundland by this

government.

My question for the minister concerns the enormous cutbacks

for fire protection services. First of all I would like to ask him if he would

confirm that the amount of money which will be eliminated, or cut, from his 1995

Budget for essential fire fighting equipment, using their own words in the

Budget document, for the various municipalities around the Province is $827,500?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: The figure that you quoted would be the figure

based on last year's actual spending in comparison. I think that is what you are

getting at. Let us talk about a $1 million budget that we had last year for fire

fighting equipment and this year it is $250,000. He is absolutely correct.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Can I ask the minister also if he can confirm a report that

the total amount of money on file in requests from municipalities for essential

fire fighting equipment of various sorts is more than $5.3 million, and would he

also table a breakdown of the information under that heading, and what equipment

is needed and where? In other words a listing.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, the total amount of requests for

this year exceeded $5 million but within that $5 million, and I am not sure, but

I thought yesterday, or on Friday I was told that $3.2 million was the

reacquisition of new trucks for fire departments in the Province that had

equipment and were applying for extra equipment, or to replace the twenty year

old trucks they had. Communities around the Province that do not have any

equipment at all, it is less than $2 million, as far as I know.

With regards to tabling the request, I don't think there

would be a problem with that and I would certainly do it as soon as I possibly

can.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a

supplementary question.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for his answer and look forward to

receiving that information. I am not sure his numbers are accurate, they don't

jive with the information provided in the letter written by the President of the

Fire Fighters Association.

Now, Mr. Speaker, if reports are accurate, and I refer to the

story in The Evening Telegram on the weekend which the minister probably

has seen, the minister tried to give the impression after the Budget Speech was

made, in interviews that he gave subsequently, that these cuts are not all that

serious and that they won't adversely affect municipalities. Now surely he has

been aware or is aware that since that time there have been serious concerns

raised publicly about his comments.

I would like to ask the minister a specific question: Since

he is quoted at least as saying publicly that only two fire trucks will be

financed, therefore the rest of the municipalities won't get the funding for

their requests, can he tell us who these two lucky communities are that will

receive the trucks? What method did he use to determine the winners' eligibility

and what method was used to determine the ineligibility of all the others who

will be the losers?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I think I can reply to three

questions. I believe there may have been four or five there but I will try my

best to reply to all of them.

Number one, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland is the only Province in

Canada that has a fire fighting equipment program. Number two, it was a

budgetary decision that we had to make, that the government had to make as it

related to my department. Now maybe the easiest way to do this - and I refer to

some of my colleagues who sit on the other side of the House who were mayors -

maybe the easiest way to do this would have been to reduce the MOG to all

municipalities and then that would have given me the extra million dollars to

spend in fire fighting equipment, but I didn't think at the time that that would

be the correct method to use. You have to remember something else too, Mr.

Speaker, that fire fighting equipment is the responsibility of the municipality

and it is the town council or the city council that must take the lead and the

responsibility in regards to providing its volunteer fire department with

adequate fire fighting equipment.

The last or, one of the last questions my hon. friend asked

me was: Who will get the fire trucks and if there were two fire trucks. Well,

Mr. Speaker, the estimates haven't been approved yet in the House, we are not

finished with the Budget procedures; I would think, if it is anything like other

years it will be probably October or November before I will be in a position to

say who is going to get the money out of the $250,000. It happens to be a

procedure that you go through every year and assessments have to be done with

fire trucks and fire fighting equipment and tenders have to go out. In fact, I

would think that the majority of the fire fighting equipment that was announced

last year is not even in the Province yet in some cases. It is not in the

Province, it has been tendered and has not been brought in. So it will probably

be late this summer before we can make the announcement.

Now the other misconception that the hon. member has, Mr.

Speaker, is that we are going to spend the $250,000 on two fire trucks. I did

not say that either, I don't know where that came from. Maybe the $250,000 will

be divided up into twenty-five or thirty communities and we will be giving out

fire fighting packages. I don't know at this particular time. I would suggest

that when the House opens next fall, maybe that would be the right time to ask

me that particular question.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, there is no harm to say that the

minister is living in his own world. Half the stuff he commented on there I

didn't ask him, had nothing to do with it and I certainly didn't ask the last

question. So it must be his prepared text that he is reading from, his prepared

speech.

Now, Mr. Speaker, having heard all of that gobbledegook by

the minister, can he therefore tell us why or if in fact it is accurate that

after meeting with the fire fighters association, the president of the fire

chiefs and fire fighters association, that he promised to review his departments

program cuts with the governments Social Policy Committee. If the explanation,

as he just gave, is it and he has no concerns about it, why did he promise to

review it if in fact that is accurate, is that an accurate statement?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I take exception to the fact that

someone would stand in this House and say that I have no concerns about

volunteer fire departments in this Province. I had to reply to a question last

week based on the same accusation. There is nobody in this Province who realizes

the importance of volunteer fire departments around this Province any more than

I do and I take exception to that. I said to the members of the association, the

Volunteer Fire Fighters Association, sometime ago when they asked me if I could

set up a meeting with the Social Policy Committee of Cabinet, I said to them yes

I could do it. I had a meeting with them on Thursday morning and at that meeting

I suggested that maybe now would be a good time for him to meet with the Social

Policy Committee because they had some questions as it related to the reductions

in finances for volunteer fire departments, and this might be a good time.

I certainly didn't make any commitment to the volunteer fire

departments in this Province that I would review personally the decision that

Cabinet made. I don't have the authority to do that, and I didn't do it, but I

did provide the opportunity for the Fire Fighters Association to come in and sit

down with the Social Policy Committee, and at that particular point in time,

then they can make their comments known to a number of members of Cabinet, and

that is all I have done.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will leave it to the minister and Jennifer Smith, who wrote

the

article in The Evening Telegram , who said, in fact, that you did

promise to review the program cuts with the president. That is between you and

her, unless she has you on tape, then perhaps your words will be taken as

gospel.

By the way, I don't know what allegations he is referring to.

I didn't make any allegations. I asked him some questions. Maybe there are

others out there who made allegations about his lack of concern; in fact, it is

pretty evident in the letter that was written to him.

I want to ask a supplementary of the Premier about this same

matter. I would like to ask the Premier: Has he been briefed?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: Okay, do you want to get briefed now?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SIMMS: Has he been briefed on this serious matter?

And, more importantly, is he familiar with the letter that the President of the

Fire Chiefs and Fire Fighters Association of Newfoundland and Labrador,

representing 7,000 fire-fighters, most of them volunteers, who said, in his

letter, that cuts of this magnitude could jeopardize the lives of fire-fighters

and the municipalities that they are trying to protect. Is the Premier aware of

this?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, the volunteer fire-fighters

of this Province are one terrific group. Maybe people don't realize that not

only do they give of their time as volunteer fire-fighters, but my experience

with most of them is that they are also the community leaders who provide

leadership in other activities within the community, so nobody wants to do

anything to put volunteer fire-fighters in jeopardy or danger. I suspect,

however, that the comment is a rather strong statement made for the purpose of

making the point as effectively as he possibly could that he doesn't like the

reduction in capital expenditures for fire-fighting equipment, and I understand

that, but I don't share his view that it has put anybody in jeopardy or in

danger.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, the Premier didn't answer my

question. Is he familiar with this letter? Has he seen this letter? I think he

should read the letter. If he likes, I will send over a copy to him. He should

definitely read it, because I think it is a little stronger than that. It even

goes on to say, and I quote for the Premier: `We fully understand your

government's responsibility to be fiscally competent. They understand that. But

to balance the Province's sheet by compromising the basic safety of our

fire-fighters and the public is by no means acceptable. There is no price on the

value of human life.'

Now, I think it is a bit stronger than that I and I strongly

urge the Premier to read that letter and have a discussion with his minister

about it, maybe even talk to the President of the Fire Fighters Association. I'm

only quoting from his correspondence, a copy of which I will send over to the

Premier. Let me ask him specifically, because I would like to get it on the

record if he is absolutely certain: Is he comfortable, understanding all of this

now, with this letter, the public comments that have been made, the fact that

his government have cut, in fact, 75 per cent of the budget under this

particular area - 75 per cent, in excess of $800,000 - is he absolutely

comfortable that no municipality is going to be left with substandard equipment?

More importantly, is he absolutely satisfied that the basic safety of our

fire-fighters and the public is not put in jeopardy as a result of his

government's cuts?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I have total confidence in

the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. I am confident he knows what

he is doing and he will manage it quite correctly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, nobody can guarantee that

nothing will ever go wrong, that nobody will ever be hurt fighting a fire, that

fire-fighting equipment may not be the cause. I can only say that over the years

the government - not just this government, but the former government, too -

contributed substantially and supplied a lot of fire-fighting equipment

throughout the Province. The time has come now for municipalities to take a

greater share of their own responsibility for service in the area. The

government has provided for an amount that would enable it to take care of

emergency or difficult situations, but the government can't continue on

providing the capital for all fire-fighting equipment in the Province. The

municipalities have to take their own share of the responsibility. No, Mr.

Speaker, I can't guarantee anything, but I am satisfied that nothing this

government has done has put anybody in jeopardy, nor will it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have

a question for the Premier concerning the ongoing negotiating fiasco between

Canada and the European Union as regards overfishing on the Nose and Tail of the

Banks. There have been recent media reports that Canada has agreed to take Spain

and Portugal off the list of countries whose boats can be arrested if suspected

of illegal fishing. I'm wondering if the Premier has been briefed recently on

the ongoing negotiations. Can he confirm for the House if indeed this is a fact,

that Spain and Portugal will be taken off that list when Spain continues to

blatantly overfish, even today as negotiations are supposedly taking place?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, yes, I've been fully briefed

on what is proposed for the agreement. Yes, I've expressed approval, with some

considerable degree of reluctance, but in recognition -

AN HON. MEMBER: Approval?

PREMIER WELLS: Yes, but in recognition that Canada has

not the ability to simply dictate the way fishery will be run beyond the 200

miles. We don't have the ability to do that. The Canadian Government has tried

to bargain some kind of a reasonable arrangement. Those are not the

circumstances it would put in place if it had the sole say in the matter. It has

to bargain with the European Community on the issue.

As to what is contained in it, Mr. Speaker, I don't have the

right to say in detail what is in it. I will leave that to the Minister of

Fisheries and Oceans, or at least I would seek - I don't mind disclosing it - I

would seek his approval before I would do that. I am not in any position to

confirm or deny that the provision that the hon. member asked for is in it or

not. I just point out to members that it is not simply a matter of Canada being

able to direct the way things are going to be, it is a matter of negotiation.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition

House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have to be honest with the Premier and tell him I am

absolutely flabbergasted that he would say, as Premier of this Province, that he

supports that - I mean, really!

PREMIER WELLS: I didn't say I support it.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Reluctantly support it, he said, unless

I misunderstood the Premier. I thought he said he reluctantly supported -

MR. TOBIN: Reluctantly gave (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, gave it - or support it.

PREMIER WELLS: (Inaudible) clear it up.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: What I said was, with some degree of

reluctance I expressed approval for the overall agreement. I just got through

saying whether that is in it or not, he will have to go to the Minister of

Fisheries and Oceans and find out. I can't confirm or deny it. That is what I

said. But in terms of the overall agreement I wanted to indicate to the member

that yes, I've been fully briefed. The minister has kept me posted on a

day-by-day, and sometimes hour-by-hour, basis of the developments. There has

been a representative from the provincial Department of Fisheries, so we are

very much aware of what - the minister has been involved in it on a regular

basis.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

A further supplementary to the Premier. There are a couple of

items that have, I guess, been received with scepticism by our people. One is

the matter I just raised, in that they cannot believe that Canada would even

entertain taking Spain and Portugal off the list, for obvious reasons. The other

one is the report that Canada has agreed to allow the European Union to put

their own observers on their own vessels. What is the point of the Spanish

observing the Spanish overfish? That is the question: What is the point?

I want to ask the Premier again: Has he raised any objection

to this particular matter with the Federal Government? Is it the position of

this Province that they support such action of the European Union putting their

own observers on their own vessels so that they can then watch them overfish?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I can say again that the hon.

member and anybody else who wants to should go to the Minister of Fisheries and

Oceans directly. Now, I don't mind asking him if has any objection to my making

it public, because I certainly don't have any objection, and I will explain my

views with respect to it. I won't express any opinion on any individual aspect

of it raised by the member until I know it is made public, or the minister has

no objection to my making it public.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I guess I could say it is even worse than I thought, by the

sound of it all. This morning there were some media in the Province carrying the

Minister of Fisheries as saying that it really doesn't matter what agreement

Canada reaches with the EU, that Canada won't be able to control the Spanish

overfishing anyway. I'm sort of flabbergasted by that, because what has the last

month or so been about with the arrest of the Estai , the cutting of the

net, and now those supposed negotiations ongoing? Let me ask the Premier really,

does he himself believe, regardless of the end result of those negotiations,

that it will not have any positive impact on our fish stocks by getting Spain

particularly to stop overfishing? Does he agree with that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: I heard the interview attributed to the

minister this morning and he never said anything even remotely like what the

hon. member just said. What he did say was that as far as Canada is concerned,

it has worked out an agreement with the European Union. It is up to the European

Union to bring Spain into line. Now, whether or not they will be able to remains

to be seen. If they cannot, then one thing is clear, Canada must continue the

action that it took in the past. If they cannot bring Spain into line, Canada

must continue that action.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WELLS: Now, the sensible, responsible way for

Canada to try to achieve a resolution of the problem is to negotiate a solution

with the European Union. It has done that and as far as Canada is concerned it

has worked out an arrangement that, with reluctance, Canada could live with. It

is not what Canada would prefer but it is one that we could live with for the

sake of protecting not only the turbot stocks but the other stocks. Now, it is

up to the European Union to bring Spain into line. If they do not, Canada will

have no alternative but to continue the course of action it started three weeks

ago.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford -

Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister

of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

On Saturday evening, a tragedy was narrowly avoided in a

traffic accident in St. Phillips. A vehicle went over a forty-foot embankment

and overturned in a river. In today's Evening Telegram , credit is given

to two young men, Leonard Tucker and David Hann, for their heroic action in

effecting the rescue of a mother and her two small children who were trapped

inside the car. However, Mr. Speaker, this morning in a CBC radio interview with

a Hattie Wheeler, it was indicated that a frantic call to 911 went unanswered

for more than five minutes. Is the minister aware of the situation? Has he asked

for an investigation into these circumstances?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the situation

and staff in my department, the deputy minister, in fact, was talking to the

Fire Commissioner's office and the Fire Chief this morning. There seems to be

some mix-up here with regard to the actual telephone call that a particular lady

made. There were apparently two other calls made that were recorded and acted

upon immediately. It seems right now that there is some problem in actually

trying to identify whether the lady actually dialled the 911 number or not. I

have asked my staff, I've asked the Fire Commissioner's office and the Fire

Chief to look into that particular question to find out exactly what happened on

that particular call. I am also led to believe, Mr. Speaker, that there were two

other calls that came in on and around the same time as the lady said she made

her call, and both of those calls related to the same incident. As far as I know

and from what I am being told from my department, from my staff, is that 911

call was never received. They don't really have an answer for why the 911 wasn't

received, unless there was some problem with the telephone or she dialled the

wrong number or something. But they are investigating and I hope to have a

proper answer maybe at a later time for the member.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford -

Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister. Of course,

he recognizes it is a great worry to all residents if 911 calls go unanswered

for five minutes. I am wondering if he would assure the House that the results

of his investigation and that of his department will be released to the House,

and therefore, to the public at the earliest possible time?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. REID: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and may I say also that the E

911 service that the government just introduced and will be working on in the

next three or four months will hopefully enhance that whole system. Now, I am

not saying there is anything wrong with the system now but very few complaints

come in or have come forward in the last number of years, on not being able to

reach 911. It is the first one that I've heard of since I've been made minister

and the first one I've heard of. I don't remember hearing of one. I can

certainly assure the member that as soon as the report is available to me, I

will certainly make it available to the House and, in saying that, I add, that

is why this government is taking the approach that we have. I would like to have

911 in Carbonear, I say to the hon. speaker. I am sure people living on the

Northwest Coast and the South Coast would like to have 911. It is a much better

system, one that works. It is a much better system and with the enhanced system

that we are bringing in, hopefully, things like that won't happen again. Thank

you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The

Capes.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today

are for the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

The deadline for private interests to submit proposals for

the operation of the twenty-nine provincial parks that government closed was due

on Friday past. Would the minister be able to tell the House today: were

proposals submitted on all twenty-nine parks and when will the names of the

successful applicants be made public?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture

and Recreation.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There were, I think in total we met, with respect to the

issue this morning, some 140 different proposals with respect to twenty-eight

facilities however, of the twenty-eight that were on the list or twenty-nine, I

think there were three, all of which were basically described as scenic sites

that occupied less than an acre. Where there was no expression of interest in

terms of anyone from the public, a private sector operator from the general

public wanting to operate them as a provincial park or a lookout of any sort, so

it looks like those three which we can probably identify in a day or so -

because we are still waiting two or three days to see if there are any further

expressions, Mr. Speaker, that were postdated on April 7, which was the deadline

but might have been in the mail over the weekend - but as of today, there looks

like there might be three of them that would not operate at all but they are

three in the category of being very small, land bases of particular scenic sites

that we will not operate in any way and it looks like there is no member of the

general public who wants to operate them either, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St.

Mary's -The Capes.

MR. MANNING: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I received the information that proposals to privatize the

Pipers Hole Provincial Park will include a plan to construct a roadway into the

Bay du Nord Reserve and some other development within that reserve. In order to

allow this to happen, government will have to change the Wilderness and

Ecological Reserve Act and I would like to ask the minister: are there any

changes being proposed within his department to the WERE Act that would allow

roadways or other types of development into the wilderness reserves such as the

Bay du Nord?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture

and Recreation.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I am not aware of the proposal that the hon. member refers to

in his question. There have been expressions of interest with respect to the

park at Pipers Hole near Swift Current, the details of which I am not aware of

at this time, and I have not been approached by anybody either outside of

government or from officials inside the department who are suggestion that we in

any way, shape or form change the status or boundaries of either of our

wilderness reserves including the Bay du Nord Reserve.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Environment.

The Auditor General's Report states basically, that your

department is in a mess with respect to management practices. There is no

strategic plan, the department's report supplies insufficient information to the

Legislature to hold the department accountable et cetera.

Does the minister agree with the Auditor General's report and

what does he plan to do about it?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, you know, the Department of

Environment is moving ahead very much so and it appreciates what the Auditor

General has written and has commented back, but I would like to inform the House

that we are well underway to doing a strategic plan for the department. As a

matter of fact, we have already had a planning session with our directors and

with all our management staff and we are very much so, in the next number of

months going to address the concerns that were put forward by the Auditor

General. We have a strategic plan which outlines a list of priorities that we

are working on and a full agenda for the Province, and I think, Mr. Speaker,

that in the next few months as they unfold, that, that question will be duly

answered.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern, a supplementary.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Minister, the Auditor General's report also states with

respect to environmental management and control activities, that policies and

procedures are not adequate to ensure the department and all its charges comply

with relevant legislation and standards. In particular, much of the legislation

is outdated and vague, that monitoring and investigation activities conducted by

the department are very limited, including other problems.

Does the minister agree with the Auditor General's

conclusions and what will be done to correct these problems?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

MR. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the member for his question. We are now, Mr. Speaker,

this year, undertaking a reform of our environmental legislation. We are taking

the five or six acts we have and putting them together under one piece of

legislation. We are going to modernize our legislation for the future, this

process will be done as a public process throughout the coming months and we

think that that will deal with a lot of the issues that the Auditor General has

brought up, but we are also doing a regulatory reform and as the member is

aware, we have government service centres being set up and some of our

Department of Environment officials will be included in that and that should

help with that process also. A whole range of initiatives are underway to deal

with what the Auditor General has identified, and I think as that process

proceeds we will see, especially with the reform in the legislation, because a

number of her concerns that were identified talk about having legislation that

deals with the issues, and we are very sure that over the next very short period

of time we will have the legislation that will deal with these concerns.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has expired.

On behalf of hon. members, I would like to welcome to the

Speaker's Gallery, Mr. Svend Robinson, the Member of Parliament for Burnaby -

Kingsway.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to present the report of the Resource Estimates

Committee. The Committee has considered the matters to it referred and has

directed me to report having approved, without amendment, the Estimates of the

Departments of Tourism, Culture and Recreation; Fisheries, Food and Agriculture;

Industry, Trade and Technology; and Natural Resources.

On motion, report received.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I want to table the report,

Exceptions to the Public Tendering Act, November, December, January and

February. Mr. Speaker, I might add, in all the years they were in government,

they never, ever, tabled those reports.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to present a petition signed by fifty-five

residents of my constituency, people from the Jackson's Cove and general area.

The prayer of the petition is: We, the undersigned, petition the hon. House of

Assembly to have government cause Memorial Hall in Jackson's Cove, which was

built by public funds for public use, be handed over to a publicly elected

community board of directors.

Mr. Speaker, when this issue first broke some weeks ago now,

I guess, I received a number of petition sheets from the citizens in the local

area, and I presented them in small batches over the last while, while the House

has been open, in this early spring Session. Now, with the Easter break about to

occur, I thought I would table the remaining sheets, some fifty-five names, to

show in total that we have many people in the general area who have been

concerned by what has gone on there.

When the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs replied

to this very early on, he scoffed at the low numbers of names that I presented

in an early petition, indicating that the concern that I was bringing forward

didn't have widespread public support. Before we close for Easter, I thought I

should finish off tabling all the names that I had, just to show that I have

tabled the names of roughly 80 per cent to 90 per cent of the voting public in

the Jackson's Cove area.

Since last bringing this matter before the House, there has

been a publicly elected board of directors basically running the hall for the

last number of weeks. They have conducted community activities in the hall. They

have conducted fund-raising activities to raise a legal defence fund for their

particular committee.

The dictatorial, unelected committee, chaired by very

prominent local Liberals, still exists. It is still demanding to take back

control of the hall, but so far the citizenry has not given in to their

requests. They have, through pressure on the local police department, through

pressure on this provincial government, tried to, by force of will, by force of

personality, take over the hall again, but to no avail. The bulk of the

citizenry in Jackson's Cove has stood firm, and the hall is still in the hands

of the general public and their democratically elected committee.

The latest development is, the lawyer for the dictatorial

committee has written the lawyer for the publicly elected committee, asking for

a meeting in Grand Falls. There may be some break, some crack in the armour, of

the committee that so far has been elected by no one and answering to no one; I

guess time will tell.

I just wanted to bring to the attention of the House just

where this matter sits, and to assure hon. members that should this matter

continue to drag on after we resume our sitting after the Easter break, I no

doubt will have other petition sheets from citizens of the area to keep pressure

on the government to recognize the birth and growth of democracy in the

Jackson's Cove area. It has not been good enough for the government to sit on

its hands and ignore this matter, and certainly if something good doesn't come

of this democratic exercise I will continue to press it both in the House and in

the media so that democracy will prevail in due course. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, we are going to deal with the

first of the Concurrence debates today. That is limited by the rules to three

hours. In theory we could go to 5:42 p.m. I don't anticipate we will, but in the

event that we will perhaps I should first of all clear the way for us to do so

by moving that the House not adjourn at 5:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the House do

not adjourn at 5:00 p.m. All those in favour, `aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye!

MR. SPEAKER: Contrary-minded, `nay.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay!

MR. SPEAKER: Motion carried.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: The Speaker has the most amazing powers of

perception, I say to my friend for Grand Falls.

Your Honour, would you be good enough please to call Order

No. 3(a). My friend for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir will speak first, of course.

MR. SPEAKER: Order No. 3(a), Concurrence Motion for

Government Services Committee.

The hon. the Member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir.

MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a few remarks

to say on the Concurrence debates. As we start off I would like to thank the

members of the Committee: the vice-chairman, the Member for Bonavista South, the

Member for St. John's East Extern, the Member for Harbour Grace, the Member for

LaPoile, the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island, and the Member for St. Mary's

- The Capes.

In the Government Services we considered the Estimates of the

Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and with that Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing; the Departments of Works, Services and Transportation,

Employment and Labour Relations, Finance and the Public Service Commission.

I will make a few general remarks about that because I know

it will be carried on. I took a few notes from my chairman's position during the

Committee debates and outlined exactly what was happening, what questions were

asked, and I'm sure they will be debated here at some length this afternoon as

we go through.

The first department we did was the Department of Municipal

and Provincial Affairs and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. During these one

of the topics that was discussed was the local service districts, particularly

that in these areas the snow clearing was now being done by the Department of

Works, Services and Transportation, had previously been done without cost, was

now going to have to be paid for by those local service districts. There was

some concern that the local service districts wouldn't be able to pay for this

snow clearing and would be - I'm sure that it will be discussed here at some

length today. Because there is a concern in rural Newfoundland about what is

happening in some of the local service districts.

Under the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing branch of the

Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs there was some concern about the

RAP by virtue of the fact that it had been reduced. It seems that the money that

was going into it had been reduced, and they recognized that it was a

federal-provincial agreement. There were questions asked concerning financing of

condominiums at the Marble Mountain area when there was a crying need for social

housing in this Province. The question was asked: Will the profits from the sale

of those condominium units be turned back to the Province so that they will be

able to be used in social housing?

Under Works, Services and Transportation there were certain

questions raised which I'm sure will be discussed further here today. The doing

away with the motor vehicle inspections for licencing, that was raised, and I'm

sure my friends on the other side and maybe some members on this side will have

some concerns about it. Photo i.d.s was raised as another concern, and the

distance that some people have to travel to have these photos taken. The

minister answered that and said it was impossible to do anything, only the areas

that he had. I'm sure there will be more on that. Again, snow clearing, which is

always one in the department, that was raised and discussed at some length.

The last one was the ferry service on the South Coast. I'm

sure that there will be much discussion of the ferry service on the South Coast

before it is all over. As a matter of fact, we have a delegation in the gallery

today from Franois who are concerned about some of the things that are

happening now in the tendering process that has taken place on that, and they

have had meetings with the minister, and there are concerns about the fact that

it was taken over and the Province relieved the federal government of their

responsibility to provide this, a decision that was made in the Terms of Union,

but I am sure that this will be discussed another day here in the House with

some more detail than we are going into right now.

Under the Department of Employment and Labour Relations,

there were certain things discussed which I am sure will come in for more

discussion here this afternoon, for instance the Employment Generation Program

that the minister so graciously brought in in January of this year, or February,

which helped provide many weeks of employment for Newfoundlanders. Some of the

other things that were discussed under this one was the hiring at Hibernia, and

the minimum wage, and I am sure that all of these will be open for more

discussion as we get into the debate here this afternoon.

Under the Department of Finance and the Public Service

Commission there were certain questions, and very few questions under the Public

Service Commission, but as is general when you discuss the Department of

Finance, the conversation was open and pretty near any topic that anyone wanted

to was discussed.

I could go on into details of this, but these are roughly the

notes that I, as the Chairman, took as we were going through, and I thought it

should be noted that this is what was the main thrust of the estimates.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. GILBERT: What departments? I said them once, but I

will say them again for the benefit of my friends over there on the other side:

Municipal and Provincial Affairs; Works, Services and Transportation; Employment

and Labour Relations; and the Department of Finance; also, Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing under Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and the Public Service

Commission under Finance.

As I say, I thank the members who served on the committee

with me. We got through the estimates in the three hours allotted. None of them

went into overtime. There was a general agreement there. Everybody seemed to be

pretty well agreed that they went well. I don't know if they got the answers to

the questions, but in the discussion this afternoon I am sure there will be some

repeat of the questions that were asked in the committee stage.

With that, so as not to carry on, I am sure that members have

other questions. I outlined what happened. I again thank the committee, and I

move the adoption of this report without further talk so we can get out of here

now.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am happy to rise today on the Concurrence debate. As the

Chairman of that committee said, it was a very good committee. The committee

functioned very well, and there was good participation by all committee members.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Vice-Chairman.

MR. FITZGERALD: A good Vice-Chairman, yes there was.

There was a really good Vice-Chair. There were a couple of other committee

members, the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island, the Member for St. Mary's -

The Capes, the Member for St. John's East Extern, Harbour Grace, and LaPoile,

and everybody showed up on time and it was a great exchange of ideas.

There is one thing, as a new member, sometimes we think this

is a waste of time, or something else is a waste of time, but it is a good time

for people like myself, who are new members, to come and ask questions, and to

get the minister's attention, and to get the attention of the minister's staff

as well, and it goes on the record. Lots of times during Question Period in the

House we know we are all limited to half-an-hour, and there are a lot of

questions we would like to get on, but because of certain critics in that area

who would like to ask other things, or because of the time limit, or the time

frame, we don't always get to ask the questions and bring forward the concerns

of the people in our districts, and to get the minister's attention and the

staff's attention, so it is certainly good in that sense.

I feel also that the ministers themselves, when they come and

sit on a committee as committee members, come with a different approach. They

come being very sincere and, as the questions are asked, they answer them to the

best of their ability. It is not always a time to make political hay because the

media doesn't pay a lot of attention to it. The media is very seldom present,

but still it is a good time to get some information, and a good time to feel out

the minister and his staff on what they think of certain ideas and certain

suggestions. They don't limit you to only the Budget Estimates, or to the salary

details. They are pretty flexible and you can general questions on a wide range

of topics. You can also get into direct questions, specific questions from your

own district. This always adds something to it and gives you a chance to get on

the record and show the people of your district that this was a concern of

yours, it was addressed, and here is what the government policy is on those

issues.

Mr. Speaker, I was very happy to take

part in the committee.

The four sessions were held here in the House. I think the Chairman of the

committee got a jump probably on most everybody else and we didn't find

ourselves having to go to the Colonial Building down at the other end of town,

or we did not have to come back too many nights. I think it was one night we had

to come back here after supper, and the other events were held right here in the

House of Assembly.

One of the topics that was up for discussion and came under

the heading of Government Services was Works, Services and Transportation. It

was a good time to bring to the minister's attention a very real concern in my

district, and that is the condition of Route 235, a road that leaves Route 230

at the intersection of Southern Bay and goes all the way to Bonavista. It takes

in the historic district of Bonavista South and goes all down around the

coastline of Bonavista Bay. It shows the real beauty of the whole area there.

Mr. Speaker, it was a good time to bring it to the attention of the minister and

to get his comments on record. The people down in my district have been trying,

unsuccessfully I might add, to get the minister to come down to a meeting and to

travel over that

section of the road. When the minister was sitting here the

other day he was very accommodating. I am not going to get into that now anyway.

It is a very serious concern, that here we are today going

out and closing down schools, trying to combine schools and saying it is not

unrealistic to expect people to get on a bus and travel fifteen or twenty

kilometres, or thirty kilometres, over a stretch of roadway. We are doing this

in the one breath, Mr. Speaker, but on the other hand I am not sure that we are

making the commitment to maintain our roads and our highways so those people can

travel safely to school.

On this certain

section of highway that I refer to, Route

235, it is almost like an obstacle course, trying to get away from the bumps and

humps. The minister continues to talk about the winter, it is the bad weather we

have been experiencing, they are frost bumps, and those bumps will disappear

when the sun starts to shine, but the minister is wrong, Mr. Speaker. He doesn't

know what he is talking about, because he can drive down over this stretch of

road in July and August and he will find it is just as dangerous and just as bad

at that time of year as it is now. It is a

section of roadway, I guess, that you

might say is worn out. I don't know if there is a life put on it. Maybe the

minister can answer this, if there is a life put on a

section of roadway how

long a paving job should be expected to last before it has to be recapped, or

before the road has to be reconstructed.

I think I did hear the minister say at one time that twenty

years or twenty-two years is pretty well the life of a road and, Mr. Speaker,

this certain

section of roadway certainly falls into that category. The road is

in excess of twenty years old. It is about twenty-five years old and at the time

it was constructed, Mr. Speaker, I am not so sure that the contractors had to

abide by the rules and regulations as they have to now. I think it was a

situation where contractors probably got away with a lot more and made a lot

more money in those days than they do now, because inspections weren't so

critical and weren't brought to the forefront as the minister expects them to be

now so that they will get the value for their dollar.

I suppose, when you look back on paving in those days as

well, when we had all gravel roads, it was a situation where the members of the

day went out and tried to get whatever dollars they could for their district,

Mr. Speaker, which is what they should have done, but having received maybe many

times fewer dollars than should have been brought forward to complete the work -

and the work was stretched out and the job was stretched out in order to

accommodate a wider area or to accommodate more kilometres for paving than

should have been included in the tender and in the budget. But there were no

arguments in those days because at least a little black top was going down, the

dust was cured and everybody was happy. Now we are paying the price for it, Mr.

Speaker.

When you go down over this stretch of roadway - in fact I go

down over it at least twice a week, Mr. Speaker, even when the House is open.

Even when the House is open, I say, I travel Route 235 at least twice a week,

and I don't mean going down and coming back as two occasions, Mr. Speaker. I

make a trip down there every Saturday and every Sunday morning and I can tell

the minister that when those people call in complaining, when you hear them on

the open line shows and when you see the children writing letters to him - which

I know he has received - when you see the children calling to his office and the

school teachers and the parents, Mr. Speaker, they are not calling because they

want to occupy the minister's time or want to be a thorn in his side, they are

calling because they are concerned. The parents are concerned because their

children get on that bus in the morning and arrive at school sick. They arrive

at school suffering from motion sickness. This is a very, very common complaint

from the whole area.

Now, off that Route 235, there are two spur roads as well,

one going out to Upper Amherst Cove and the other out to Tickle Cove. It has

gotten to the point today that even the wholesale trucks that go up there to

service the businesses in the area, Mr. Speaker, the convenience stores and the

food stores, they would normally go there on two occasions a week. They had a

schedule that twice a week they would make their visits to those stores.

Naturally, it was done because they were making money and they were providing a

service. Mr. Speaker, it has gotten to the point now where this road has

deteriorated to such a condition that those trucks have refused to go there

twice a week. They go there now once a week and the threat is always brought

forward that if there is not something soon done with your road, then we may not

come here at all. While you are driving down the road, Mr. Speaker, it is not

uncommon to see car parts, auto parts, tail pipes or mufflers like you would see

on the old gravel roads years ago. When you would go down in a mud hole and you

would have to wait for somebody to hook on to you and tow you out of the mud

hole then there was always a muffler left behind or a tail pipe. This is what

you are seeing today on this stretch of roadway leading from Southern Bay down

to Bonavista.

Mr. Speaker, then we continually talk about one of the

vehicles that is going to take us into the 20th Century. One of the vehicles to

take us there, Mr. Speaker, is tourism. Now, I don't know how we can ever expect

people to drive here from the United States or from other parts of Canada to

come with their motor homes - or even our own people, Mr. Speaker, even our own

Newfoundlanders to take their family cars and go down over such a roadway. I

fear Mr. Speaker, if they go all the way they will make only one trip and they

will never, ever go back there again.

Now, tourism is a very important industry on the Bonavista

Peninsula when you look at what has been taken away from us and the things that

we are not allowed to do anymore there as it relates to the fishery with the

moratorium on. One of the things that we looked at and set our sights on and one

of the things that everybody is promoting, Mr. Speaker, is tourism.

At one time, in the Town of Bonavista, tourism meant a

strange license plate driving through the town, it didn't mean much more than

that, because people were earning a living in a traditional way. They were

either going out in their fishing boats and earning their living as

fisherpersons or they were going to work in the plant; they didn't need tourism.

If people visited their town, they were hospitable, they showed them the

wonderful sights and took time to talk to them but, Mr. Speaker, as far as

really going out and paying a lot of effort to the tourism industry was

concerned, it wasn't done - it wasn't needed.

I remember, the Member for Trinity North, one time, when we

were at a meeting in his district, made the comment, `I wonder why Bonavista is

so far behind Trinity when it comes to tourism.' And the member was right,

Trinity is far ahead of any other town on the Bonavista Peninsula, far ahead;

but the reason they are ahead of every other town is because they recognized

what they had to offer, and the people there needed the jobs, they needed the

income, they needed tourism; there was nothing else there for them. Mr. Speaker,

they were made aware of the beauty of the area, they preserved their culture and

they expounded on it and built up all the things that were there, its

attractions, promoted them and today they are doing very well. The people in

Bonavista, didn't need tourism and that is why they find themselves now, so far

behind.

Mr. Speaker, as more and more people go to Cape Bonavista, as

more and more people go down and drive out and picture themselves at a site of

land closer to Europe than any other place in North America, and look out and

see the whales, see the icebergs - sitting in their cars, Mr. Speaker, they can

see this. And as they see those things, the beauty of the area, and enjoy the

clean air and the nice environment, the hospitality of the people there, more

and more people are now beginning to see what tourism means and they are seeing

it through the eyes of a tourist rather than we would from our own eyes.

We look at those things, the rocks, the sea, and we think how

bad it is, it has nothing to offer, but it does, it has a lot to offer. So, Mr.

Speaker, that is the reason why this road that I continually talk about here in

the House - and I have written the minister, I have brought it up in Estimates,

Route 235 - that is why it is so very important to the district of Bonavista

South and to the parents and children of the area who must travel both ways on

this Route 235 every day in order to get to school, to work and to access any

government building, Mr. Speaker. Still, the minister refuses to go and meet

with the people.

He has asked them to come to St. John's, he is saying: Come

to St. John's, we will meet with you in here, but that's not what they want to

do and I don't blame them. Let the minister go down and travel over the road. It

is obvious that he doesn't know exactly what is causing the problem there, he is

saying it will disappear in a couple of months time, he is saying that he will

go down there before the winter is over, but if he is going to do all those

things, then it is time for him to go out now and start making good on some of

the promises he has made.

Those people, Mr. Speaker, the concerned parents in the area,

got together about two months ago, met there in the school, 200 of them, got out

on a moment's notice, came out and talked about this particular roadway and what

they could do in order to have it improved, for government to realize the

deplorable state it was in. They talked about such things as keeping the

children home from school; the bus operators were there and talked about keeping

their buses off the road; the students were there and talked about being sick,

Mr. Speaker. Some other people were there and talked about blocking the road and

letting nobody through but they were realistic, Mr. Speaker. They said: Hang on

now, let's look at this, let's give the minister a chance, let's give the

department a chance. Let's call the office, let's make him aware of it, and

let's see if he will come forward, and come down and meet with us, sit with us

first-hand and hear our concerns.

The minister was approached. He didn't want to go down and

meet with the public. He felt a public meeting would turn into a shouting match

and it wouldn't accomplish anything. He might have been right. The group of

people who met at the school that night took all that into consideration. They

said: What we will do is we will form a committee to meet with the minister in

case he doesn't want to have a public meeting. They formed a committee and ever

since that meeting two months ago, they've been trying to get the minister down

to meet with them as a committee, and he has been continually putting them off,

saying: Maybe I will, maybe I won't.

Anyway, the meeting hasn't happened. I think it is to the

minister's detriment that he hasn't allowed it to happen, because I'm sure there

are many ministers over there who would have gone there and would have met with

the people, and addressed the concern, and would have been up front with them

and told them when they could expect repairs to be done. If we are going to

promote our own towns, if we are going to promote the areas where we find

ourselves now without any economic stimulus, one thing we have do, and that is

look after the infrastructure that we have in place. If we don't maintain our

roadways and if we don't maintain the rest of the infrastructure out there, then

I don't know how we are ever going to attract anybody to come to those areas to

create industry or to create some economic stimulus in the area.

Another incident that was brought to the minister's attention

was the amount of overtime paid out to government workers during the snow

clearing time. What they do, is they advertize or post up the hours of overtime

that people work. I went into one depot on the Bonavista Peninsula at the end of

January, and found, up to that time, they had in excess of $60,000 paid out in

overtime. I said to some of the workers there: `Boys, you are making lots of

money, making lots of overtime.' They answered: `Yes, boy, you know, it has been

a bad winter, the weather has been bad and we have been working a lot of hours,

and we get time-and-a-half for everything over forty hours, and then they get

called in and what have you.' I don't know the exact way that their collective

agreement is structured but I think it is pretty well standard - time-and-a-half

after forty hours, so many hours for call-in, et cetera.

Mr. Speaker, some of those snow plough operators, some of

those labourers who are - I think there has to be two on what they call the

flier that operates the side wing of that - some of those people are working in

excess of twenty hours at a time. They go back and get four hours rest, and

they're out again, sometimes for a further twenty hours. Now, I'm wondering, if

we are paying those people time-and-a-half, and we have a lot of people out

there today looking for a job, why the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation doesn't possibly look at hiring extra people in the wintertime.

They would certainly be providing a service, it would certainly be cheaper for

them in that they would only have to pay straight time. Then, also, there is the

safety part of it. I don't think anybody would want to go out and work twenty

hours and have four hours rest and another twenty hours and four hours rest.

This happens day after day when you see the type of weather

that we have been experiencing this year. I'm sure it happens on the Burin

Peninsula as well. In fact, probably the two most capable people here in the

House, the hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West and the hon. the Member

for Grand Bank, got stranded down in their towns. They couldn't make it here one

day. I think they were even late getting in to the House, and I know they make

every effort to get here.

So, Mr. Speaker, another grave concern of some of the people

who work for the Department of Highways - and I might add, before I go on, when

I talk about hiring other people in the wintertime, and giving them a chance to

work, a chance to be productive, a chance to get off unemployment insurance and

contribute something to this society, I might add that those people, too, are

concerned about the safety part of it, and there is a very, very real fear about

contracting out.

I wouldn't want to bring about any unjustified fears, but it

seems that a lot of people today working with the Department of Works, Services

and Transportation, have a real problem with the minister and the secretive way

he operates the department, asking a lot of questions because they are hearing a

lot of rumours about contracting out. The minister himself, here in debate when

he was asked a question, a pointed question, about lay-offs in his department,

skated around it - maybe, maybe not, but there are going to be changes. They are

restructuring the old department, and as a result of that you are going to see a

lot of people laid off.

Let's get back to talking about the snow clearing and the

people I suggested might be hired on to operate the snowplows, and to do away

with the time-and-a-half and the double time, and all of this. Look at all the

people we have trained under this TAGS program and under the NCARP program to be

heavy equipment operators, all done and sanctioned by the Federal Government,

paid for by taxpayers' dollars, so now those people are out there unemployed,

quite capable of doing those duties, but find themselves today unemployed, and

our own government could be giving them the opportunity, to go out and go to

work and be productive citizens right in their own towns, travelling back and

forth. Those are some of the concerns that were brought forward to the Minister

of Works, Services and Transportation.

Another big issue raised in that particular session was the

inspection of vehicles. And the minister, every time that it was brought forward

here in the House and somebody asked a question, or somebody got up and made a

comment on it, his first reaction was: Who are you representing? It's no trouble

to know who you are supporting; you are supporting the garage owners out there.

Well, what is wrong with supporting the garage owners? What

is wrong with supporting people who are creating employment, who are providing

employment, and up until now were providing a real service to everybody with a

driver's licence and everybody who operated a vehicle?

The minister continues to say: But we are all responsible

people. You know when there is something wrong with your car. I know when there

is something wrong with mine. Maybe we do, but a lot of us don't react to that

until the problem becomes apparent, and sometimes when it becomes apparent it

might be far too late, because you may end up by losing a life or by having an

accident and somebody will be killed, or maimed for the rest of their lives.

If the minister wanted to do away - and this was another

thing he continued to bring forward: How about the fellow who goes around with

the inspection book in his pocket, writes out the inspection slip and charges

you $15? If that was a problem out there, and I am not sure that it was - in

fact, I don't think it was - if somebody was doing it, then we should deal with

the person who was causing the problem. Don't bring in rules and regulations to

affect everybody. If you go out and catch somebody drinking and driving, are you

going to bring back prohibition? Are you going to do away with liquor? No, you

deal with the person who was causing the problem, the person who was caught.

If that were a real concern, and if there were many people

out there, then do away with the inspection fee. Still maintain the inspections,

still maintain the safety, but if there are people abusing it, do away with the

inspection fee and you wouldn't see the people that the minister referred to

going around with the book in their pocket writing out slips and charging

fifteen dollars. I am not so sure that was ever a problem, but if it was, then

that would certainly have solved it. Now, the minister says we are still going

to have an inspection, it is going to be done by the RCMP on the side of the

road.

MR. EFFORD: You don't know what you're talking about.

MR. FITZGERALD: The RCMP is going to stop you. One of

these days you are going to drive out, the RCMP will stop you and he is going to

do the inspection. He is going to check the ball joints, he is going to inspect

your muffler and he is going to crawl up under your car. Well, if we are paying

RCMP officers to do inspections on our cars, then it is about time we saved some

money and looked at doing it another way. It is about time that the Premier and

other people in Cabinet with a bit of common sense, talked to the minister and

brought him back to reality, Mr. Speaker, because this certainly doesn't add

anything to the safety on our highways.

When you look at the cost of registering your car, and the

price you are paying in taxes on gasoline, the cost of your insurance and the

taxes you pay to buy a car - double taxes to buy a car; and you don't even get

credit on a car that you trade in, with your GST. Looking at the taxes we are

paying, we certainly deserve better roads to drive over than we are witnessing

today. Now, the minister continues to go out, and the Cabinet, and say we

brought in a balanced Budget. Mr. Speaker, there should be no pride from the

government benches on the other side when you have to go out and look at the

type of roads we have to drive over and the rest of the infrastructure out there

in place today, Mr. Speaker, and where government is shunning their

responsibilities, it should bring no happiness or joy to them.

Mr. Speaker, insurance cancellations is another example. The

minister - and I have no other choice but to believe him on this one because he

is much more aware of it than I am, the way the computer system operates and the

way that the government department is structured; but I can never be convinced

and I will never understand how I can go out today, go to an insurance company,

buy insurance and write him out a check for three months or two months, give him

a down payment, never make another payment, walk away and not have to worry

about insurance again until I go to renew my license, until I renew my vehicle.

I will never understand and I will never accept the minister's explanation or

his staff's explanation that it can't be done, it can't be done, there is no

way. Now, let me go and apply for insurance - if I am going to go to a member's

office to buy insurance -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, just a minute to clue up?

MR. SPEAKER: Clue up.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, just a minute to clue up

even though I think I am allowed half-an-hour.

MR. SPEAKER: You had half-an-hour. Your time is up, Sir.

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I thought the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation would be inclined to give my colleague leave for a few minutes.

I don't intend to spend a full half-hour but there are a

couple of issues that I do want to raise as it relates to the Concurrence Debate

and what we are dealing with today. One, Mr. Speaker, is the Department of

Works, Services and Transportation. What has happened here is that the Minister

of Works, Services and Transportation tried to become the Minister of Fisheries.

He went down on the White Hills, Mr. Speaker, with a blow horn, went all over

the place shouting out, and brought a crowd back to his office in Confederation

Building. That's what the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation did,

and he went to a Cabinet meeting -and all the crowd were at the meeting, the

Dave Gullivers of the world and all the crowd who were going to save the

fishery. They were all meeting in the board room with the Minister of Works,

Services and Transportation.

AN HON. MEMBER: He is not listening.

MR. TOBIN: Oh, he is listening, don't worry about that.

The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation went up to

Cabinet and said, Now boys, have a good meeting and if Cabinet is not long I

will be back; so about half-an-hour after they were up at the Cabinet meeting,

this knock came on the door in the board room, and it was the minister's

executive assistant. The minister said, Get the boys out quick. He said, I will

see if I can find somewhere else for them, so Earle McCurdy had to take them all

and bring them down to the fishermen's office.

Now, what happened in Cabinet that day was that the Minister

of Works, Services and Transportation lost it all. The Premier took him on and

told him he was not the Minister of Fisheries, that Bud Hulan, as bad as he is,

is the Minister of Fisheries. So John had to drive them all out of his board

room. His knuckles were rapped to the extent that he couldn't carry the budget

of the Department of Transportation in Cabinet. He came out with $10 million,

the lowest amount of money for Works, Services and Transportation since

Confederation. It used to be Public Works and Services and Transportation, two

separate departments, but when you put it all together, it is the lowest amount

of money since Confederation, since 1949, and it all happened because the

minister lost his clout when he tried to short-circuit the Minister of Fisheries

- that's what happened. Any minister who could lose the battle to the extent

that in 1995-'96, we would have less money than we had in 1955-'56, there is

something wrong, I say to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

AN HON. MEMBER: He has no clout.

MR. EFFORD: The only clout I have (inaudible) I guarantee

(inaudible) worry about the roads.

AN HON. MEMBER: What roads?

MR. TOBIN: Yes, what roads, Mr. Speaker? The minister

can't do a lot with the measly amount of money he got this year. Make no mistake

about it, he cannot do very much. Now, I do not know about other members but in

my district I have already announced road work three times this year that has

been approved for me by the minister. When tenders were to be called I announced

it, when they were called I announced it, when they closed I announced it, and

now, when they were awarded I announced them again, four times - a new ramp on

Harris Drive from Marystown, which we have been trying to get for years; repairs

to the Beau Bois road; repairs to the causeway up in Creston, the new causeway

that we built a couple of years ago. I have announced it all four times, I say

to the minister.

I would have liked to have gotten more and I am still hopeful

that I will get a bit more. I would say there are members in this House who will

not be able to do what I had the opportunity to do. It is not that the minister

would not have liked to give everybody money, Mr. Speaker, it is just that

Cabinet gave him the lowest amount of money since Confederation, so what can the

poor old minister do? What can the poor old minister do?

MR. EFFORD: Imagine the time you wasted saying absolutely

nothing!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Here is the real Minister of Fisheries

coming in now.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the problem with the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation just walked in the House. All he has to do is

look over his shoulder. There is the problem - no, the other way - when he took

you on in Cabinet and said, I am the Minister of Fisheries. What were you at in

the White Hills, what were you at up in Ottawa meeting with Brian Tobin? The

Premier came to the aid of the Minister of Fisheries and slashed the Budget of

Transportation to $10 million or $12 million, that's the problem.

The Minister of Fisheries knows what I am talking about. He

knows full well what I am talking about. I do not know why the Minister of

Fisheries took it to the extent that the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation had to order him out of his board room. My colleague, the Member

for St. Mary's - The Capes was one of the people in the board room. He was one

of the people in the board room when the call came through, `get out'. One

fellow had a job to get back and get his brief case.

MR. WOODFORD: The call was a 911.

MR. TOBIN: Yes, 911 could never have operated faster.

We know now who has the influence with the Premier, who has

the Premier's ear, it's the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture. There

is no way that firemen could leave a fire hall faster than they had to leave the

boardroom of the minister. My colleague, the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes

was one of the people there. He couldn't get time to tie his shoelaces. Get out,

get out, get out! the minister said. `The minister said he is going to be hung

if you don't get out' - the row up there.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the minister will have ample

opportunity after I sit down to get up and tell us about what took place. The

Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture can get up and tell us about what

took place. I don't necessarily agree with the Minister of Fisheries, Food and

Agriculture doing what he did. I think the Minister of Fisheries, Food and

Agriculture should have accepted the fact that the Minister of Works, Services

and Transportation had the interest to go to Ottawa and meet with Brian Tobin on

an issue that was of critical importance to this Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: You don't know what you're talking about.

MR. TOBIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do, because I heard him

saying it, and if he said it he knows what he is talking about. Is it true or is

it not that you drove the people from your boardroom, I ask the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation?

AN HON. MEMBER: Did he leave when he was asked to leave?

MR. TOBIN: Did he leave? He wasn't there.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, he wasn't there.

MR. TOBIN: No, he wasn't there. He (inaudible) from

Cabinet.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation that there are roads in my district that need

work done on them this year. The road to Monkstown, for example.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) either one of you over there!

MR. WOODFORD: The heat is on - you can't take it!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Works, Services

and Transportation couldn't take it when I - he ran away. I say to the Minister

of Works, Services and Transportation that the road to Monkstown, from Davis

Cove to Monkstown needs improvement. It is all a dirt road, but from Monkstown

to Davis Cove it is impassable right now. Trucks cannot get out there with

supplies for the community - that's what is happening.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: The suppliers' trucks - M. A. Powell - no, not

them now, whoever it is, Mr. Speaker. Who are the suppliers? What trucks go up

(inaudible)?

AN HON. MEMBER: T.R.A.

MR. TOBIN: T.R.A. and that group, Mr. Speaker, I say to

the minister of -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No.

AN HON. MEMBER: Red Harbour.

MR. TOBIN: Red Harbour. Red Island is in my district,

believe it or not, (inaudible) livyers.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: All I say to the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations, is there is not too much red left in my district anywhere.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Red Harbour, Mr. Speaker, is in my district,

sure. My colleague, the Member for Bellevue has relatives who live in Red

Harbour. As a matter of fact, his first cousin is one of the best poll captains

I have.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) give the bologna to.

MR. TOBIN: Bologna? I don't know if it was Roberts or

Smallwood who gave out the bologna, but it was one of them, Mr. Speaker - must

have been Smallwood. No, what they gave was they gave out the chit for beer,

right? for seven or eight dozen beer. The boys went in to get the beer and they

said to the dealer: Instead of us taking the six dozen beer we will only take

five dozen beer and a bologna - that's how they got the bologna, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: That's one thing `Loyola' (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: It happened in Ferryland. The beer and the

bologna was picked up in Aquaforte.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: I know what you did with the beer. What

did you do with the bologna?

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, I wasn't in on it, I say to the Government

House Leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: They scooped it out with a spoon, you

said.

MR. TOBIN: Well, if they scooped it out with a spoon, I

met them up in the country. They had a big spoon, used to pull off the middle of

the road, and all you could hear was: Vote for Ed; vote for Ed.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: About 2:00 in the morning every fellow with a

beer and a big scoop of bologna, and they were all going to elect Ed Roberts as

the next Premier.

MR. ROBERTS: Those were the days (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: They were the days. And I was supportive -

AN HON. MEMBER: What?

MR. TOBIN: I was supportive of my friend for winning it.

I thought at the time he was the best person to lead the Liberal Party. I was

never a supporter of the Liberal Party, but you had to put Newfoundland first,

which the majority of the delegates at the convention did, and they elected him

leader.

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) declare my support for

`Sullivan'?

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

MR. ROBERTS: Or would you prefer `Verge'?

MR. TOBIN: Me?

MR. ROBERTS: No, who I should say I support.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I think it was the Premier who

said to myself and my colleague, the Member for Grand Bank at our federal

leadership convention: In the best interest of the Liberal Party, I would like

to have Kim Campbell leader, and in the best interest of the country, I would

like to see Charst leader. I think that is what he said. That is what I would

say about the Member for the Strait of Belle Isle and the former Premier of

Newfoundland. In the best interest of Newfoundland, I thought they should have

elected the Member for the Strait of Belle Isle at the time.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: So he never became Premier.

MR. TOBIN: No, he never became Premier.

I will tell you another little story about the Member for the

Strait of Belle Isle.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, no. When I came in here first, if there

was anyone in this House on the other side who was intimidating, the Member for

the Strait could be extremely intimidating to new members. One day, I finally

thought I had taken enough from him, and told him what I thought of him, and I

never had a problem with him since, and I have never stopped telling him what I

thought of him ever since.

Mr. Speaker, Employment and Labour Relations comes under this

heading as well.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh boy, now we're going to hear it!

AN HON. MEMBER: Name the committee, `Tom'.

AN HON. MEMBER: The shadow committee.

MR. TOBIN: His brother-in-law was on the committee. I

tell you, the same fellow who approved double billing for Workers' Compensation;

that's who was on the committee - not the Member for St. John's South, he is not

the person, in my judgement.

AN HON. MEMBER: Would you mind pointing at him? Would you

point at the fellow you think is guilty.

MR. TOBIN: I will tell you one thing, when it is found

out it is going to hurt his leadership chances. He is behind the Speaker now,

and he will be further behind him when the people find out what is going on. The

Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs is going to move ahead of him. I am

hearing that the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs has the backing of

the people with the money.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Big backers.

MR. TOBIN: He's got big backers. I am hearing that the

Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs has all of the consultants tied up,

but I can tell you, the crowd that was out in Gander, he might not do very well

from them, the crowd that faxed me in all the information.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Who do you think they will support over

there?

MR. TOBIN: Who?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: That crowd.

MR. TOBIN: What crowd?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The crowd you got the fax from.

MR. TOBIN: Who would they support?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes.

MR. TOBIN: No doubt about it, they are supporting no one

over there, and if the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation doesn't soon

start coming clean on the John Cabot set-up, if he doesn't soon start telling us

how much it is costing, Mr. Speaker, not only will the Speaker and the Minister

of Municipal and Provincial Affairs be ahead of them, they will be far behind

the Member for LaPoile if he decides to run. He will be far behind the Member

for LaPoile, he is going to -

MR. W. MATTHEWS: What about the Minister of Works,

Services and Transportation, where does he fit in it.

MR. TOBIN: The Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation does not even fit in it, not in it.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No?

MR. TOBIN: The Minister of Fisheries, Food and

Agriculture would be better.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, I heard the Member for Fortune -

Hermitage was due his support from him.

MR. TOBIN: From whom?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: From Works, Services and Transportation.

Is that true?

MR. TOBIN: Oh, I will tell you right now whom the Member

for Fortune - Hermitage is supporting.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: He was telling John he was supporting

him but then he (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, he did not. No, no, he did not.

The Member for Fortune - Hermitage, Mr. Speaker, in my

judgement, will make up his mind whom he is going to support on the last ballot.

MR. CAREEN: When he hears the speeches.

MR. TOBIN: In the last ballot after he hears the

speeches. He won't jump into it but if he does, the Member for Fortune -

Hermitage will support, I would think, the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation, my judgement is he will support the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation. Probably now, where he is working with the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs, he might have to support him but his choice was the Minister

of Tourism, Culture and Recreation and probably still is.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: He was the Minister of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation - but I can tell you who is going to decide on who is going to lead

this party, your party, come the fall, Mr. Speaker, come the fall. Do you want

me to make a prediction?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, sir.

MR. TOBIN: Okay, and it is that the Premier will resign

probably in October. The Minister of Finance and Treasury Board will take over

the party and there will be a Leadership next spring and the Minister of Finance

and Treasury Board will not be a candidate; that's my prediction, and that

there's a group, Mr. Speaker, the Speaker, the Minister of ITT, the Minister of

Environment, the federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, and a few more like

the Larry (inaudible) of the world, is going to be the crowd who decides the

next leader of this party. That's who is going to decide the next leader of your

party and the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations -

MR. WOODFORD: Lots of meetings on the West Coast

(inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

MR. WOODFORD: Lots of meetings on the West Coast

(inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Bud was over there, perhaps he is

running. Bud was over there for the big meeting he told me this morning, he is

running I bet you.

MR. WOODFORD: Big, heavy meetings too, some big names.

MR. TOBIN: - and Danny is going. The Member for Eagle

River, Mr. Speaker -

MR. CAREEN: I said: he might be called `Bud', but is he

any wiser?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: I say the Minister of ITT was listening

outside -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: - and heard what I was saying, Mr. Speaker,

and slipped in.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Speaker is back too Glenn.

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Speaker just came in. You got them

in, you got them all in.

MR. TOBIN: If that's the case, I wouldn't be one bit

surprised that the meeting was in the Speaker's office, that they left the

Speaker's office

AN HON. MEMBER: Who, Chuck and the Speaker?

MR. TOBIN: Chuck and the Speaker.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Is Brian Tobin out there too?

MR. TOBIN: I don't know if Brian was there but I will

tell you what I said. The Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation is up

there clapping his chest basically on wanting to be the next leader, I say to

the Minister of ITT and the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation is at

it and I told him that you would be one of the people who would decide on whom

the next leader of the Liberal Party is, you and Tobin and Kevin Aylward and the

Speaker -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, not the party whip, no no; and I will tell

you what I said to the minister: You, the Speaker, the Minister of Environment

who, by the way, Mr. Speaker, to whom I want to say this, is that in the last

shuffle the Premier had in this Province and when he brought in new members -

how many new ministers did he bring in?

AN HON. MEMBER: Five.

MR. TOBIN: Five? The Minister of Environment is head and

shoulders above all of them, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Environment is a

credit, when you look at what the Premier brought in, the Minister of

Environment has done an excellent job, he is never in the trouble the Minister

of Employment and Labour Relations is in, he is in trouble since he came in

here. The Minister of Social Services, Mr. Speaker, is crucifying the poor. Who

else came in?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Hulan.

MR. TOBIN: The Minister of Fisheries, Food and

Agriculture, the greatest contribution that he has made so far, was to get the

Premier to tell the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation to stay out

of fisheries matters and to drive everybody out of his office, but I have to say

it in all sincerity that I believe the Minister of Environment is doing an

excellent job.

AN HON. MEMBER: What about the Minister of Health? He is

in the race, too.

MR. TOBIN: He might. I wouldn't doubt but he would be in

it. That wouldn't surprise me, because he hit his head -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: The Minister of Health.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: You will be supporting the Minister of

Health.

MR. TOBIN: I don't care if the Minister of Health is in

it or not. None of them have the ability to manipulate and connive like the five

I just mentioned.

MR. FUREY: Are you going to be able to work with Verge?

MR. TOBIN: Work with Verge? I have worked with the Member

for Humber East, I say to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, for

the past fourteen years. For fourteen years I have worked with the member, and

never had a problem working with her.

AN HON. MEMBER: She wasn't your leader.

MR. TOBIN: She wasn't leader? Sure, she was leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: I say to the Minister of Social Services, she

is no expert on picking leaders, because she was at our leadership convention

before.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: She was at our leadership convention before,

and I can tell you who will not win the leadership of the party.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: I can tell the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation that when he turned his back on the fisherpersons of this

Province, when he allowed the Minister of Fisheries and the Premier to put the

clamp on his mouth, when he allowed that to happen, he lost it all. He doesn't

even support a separate Department of Fisheries in this Province - stood up the

other day and voted against a separate Department of Fisheries, as did some

other people, like the Member for -

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Eagle River, old yellowtail.

MR. TOBIN: No, Eagle River didn't sign it, but I will

tell you who did sign it.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Who?

MR. TOBIN: The Member for Fortune - Hermitage, and the

Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island signed it, too.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: He signed the petition?

MR. TOBIN: He signed the petition.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: The other day, how come you stood up and voted

against it?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Who else signed it?

MR. TOBIN: Who else signed it? The Member for Bellevue.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Member for Bellevue signed it, yes.

MR. TOBIN: Fortune - Hermitage, Bellevue, Mount Scio -

Bell Island, Fogo, Twillingate; who else signed it?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: I am after making a lot of good points here

today, Mr. Speaker; I am not sure which one you are talking about.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: The Minister of Environment, I have said what

I have to say about him. There is only one thing I would say about the Minister

of Environment that I haven't already said; he should have been in the Cabinet

since 1989, and if it wasn't for the vindictiveness of the Premier, and the

spite and everything else that is in that man, he would have been in Cabinet in

1989 and he would have done a good job, but because the Premier wanted to get

even, he sat one of the top people he had in the back benches. That is why he

wasn't in Cabinet. Those are the facts, the truth, and everyone in this House

knows it, and most people outside know it.

Municipal and Provincial Affairs is under this heading as

well.

AN HON. MEMBER: How is Efford doing?

MR. TOBIN: What?

AN HON. MEMBER: How is Efford doing?

MR. TOBIN: How is Efford doing? In what, the leadership?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Efford is not going to do anything in the

leadership.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: He asked me how you were doing in the

leadership, and I said you are not going to do anything in it. To tell you

something else, John doesn't care if he does well in it or not, as long as there

is a leadership.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, he doesn't care if he is in it or

out of it as long as there is a leadership.

Municipal and Provincial Affairs is under this heading as

well, as is Finance. I will get to Finance directly.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, I am not giving you a rundown. I just put

John in his place.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) pockets.

MR. TOBIN: John, I told you yesterday, they are in my own

pockets. They are not where you spent a lifetime with them in somebody else's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Welcome the interim leader back. He

wants to welcome the interim leader back.

MR. TOBIN: Isn't that -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, my time is just about out. I

better -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: I didn't spend a half-hour up already, did I?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, you only just started.

MR. TOBIN: I believe the Clerk made a mistake, Mr.

Speaker.

MR. DUMARESQUE: What happened to the seven candidates

(inaudible)?

MR. TOBIN: What is that?

MR. DUMARESQUE: What was happening to the seven

candidates from the caucus (inaudible)?

MR. TOBIN: What happened to the seven candidates...?

MR. DUMARESQUE: That were going to run for the leadership

in the caucus who were banging on the doors (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, eventually they will run. I say

don't you ever doubt that one day the Member for Grand Bank will be premier of

this Province, I say to the Member for Eagle River.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: I can tell you right now, and I told him today

that he said he was going to think about it, that I offered my full support, and

if he was in there, Mr. Speaker, I would be four-square behind him. Make no

mistake about that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Four times, and twice for council. Six times

I've been elected, I say to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.

AN HON. MEMBER: Six!

MR. TOBIN: Five. Six! Six times, Mr. Speaker. I would say

that to the Member for Eagle River. The Member for Eagle River is no friend of

the SPCA either, I understand. What happened to what you were going to do if you

didn't get in Cabinet, I ask the Member for Eagle River? When you were going to

frame the poor old Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, I would ask the

Member for Eagle River. I don't know if the Minister of Employment and Labour

Relations knows what I'm talking about or not, but he had a plan to frame you if

he didn't go in Cabinet. He had a plan to frame you. The Member for Trinity

North knows what I'm talking about. The Member for Fogo knows what I'm talking

about.

MR. DUMARESQUE: (Inaudible) made it all up.

MR. TOBIN: No, he didn't make it up. One of these days

when the Premier is here I might tell him. I might tell the Premier what the

plan is, Mr. Speaker, and tell him to make sure his dog is not out around the

door.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: For security reasons I would tell him.

MR. TOBIN: For security reasons, yes.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Ask him what he said he would do with

the Premier's dog.

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Ask him what he was going to do with the

Premier's dog.

MR. TOBIN: No, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Question Period.

MR. TOBIN: No, that is enough about that, Mr. Speaker.

There are more important things in this Province to deal with than the Member

for Eagle River, what he was going to do if he didn't get in Cabinet. He got to

be a parliamentary assistant. Probably better than being in Cabinet, and the

poor old dog survived.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, in conclusion -

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

MR. TOBIN: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

MR. TOBIN: - we say to the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board that I didn't get an opportunity to get into what he is involved

in, Mr. Speaker, the skulduggery. I didn't really get into the skulduggery this

evening, and I may have another opportunity.

AN HON. MEMBER: Why?

MR. TOBIN: Why? Because my time is just about up, and I'm

only speaking by leave, and if I expose the Minister of Finance and Treasury

Board for the skulduggery that they have all been involved in over there with

the Trans City -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to expose the Trans City

deal -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TOBIN: The friends of the Premier, the friends of the

government, Mr. Speaker, they have to be exposed!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave!

MR. SPEAKER: Leave has been withdrawn.

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, let me say that it is sad that

when I get into the meat of the corruption they withdraw leave.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm glad to have the

opportunity to say a few words on the Government Services Committee. I would

just like to say that the hon. member spoke for his half-hour. He said he didn't

have much to say when he started off, but it doesn't take long I suppose when

you get excited like the hon. member did, talking about leadership conventions

on both sides of the House.

I would like to make a few comments if I could on different

departments that fall under the Government Services Committee. I would like to

make a comment afterwards on the episode that the hon. Member for Burin -

Placentia West touched on in relation to what transpired over at the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation's office back a few months ago, but I will

wait till the minister comes back to try to get some confirmation. Because I

myself was puzzled when the Member for Burin - Placentia West called me

yesterday and told me that he had received a call on the weekend concerning this

meeting that we had at the Department of Works, Services and Transportation and

he wanted to check out a few things for the House today. I was surprised because

I did not mention it when I came out and the member had all the information

first hand, I say to him. I think he got it from the sources who were also at

that meeting but he has left now so I will wait until he comes back to touch on

that, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to touch on, if I could, the

Employment Generation Program. I would like to say to the hon. minister that we

were pleased to have the opportunity to have some programs in the district so

that some of the people out there could find some much needed work. We were very

concerned about how it all transpired over the time of a few weeks to get the

programs approved, to get them out into the districts and to find that the

criteria was very strict and that many people who were looking for work did not

have the opportunity even to apply for the programs. As a result of that, there

was tens and tens of thousands of dollars, I say to the minister, that had to be

returned to his department or was not allotted due to the criteria. With so many

people looking for work it really was hurtful that so many people were still

left out in the cold even after this Employment Generation Program was

announced, Mr. Speaker.

I heard the other day on the radio - and maybe the minister

can give me a nod if it was true or not - that there is a proposal gone to the

federal government now from the provincial government - the Premier was on

Saturday I believe and I thought there was some type of job creation program

that they are working on or trying to make some deals with the federal

government on. Is that the case?

MR. MURPHY: You have to ask the Premier.

MR. MANNING: I have to ask the Premier. Yes, well, again

we can't make any big announcements and take away from the Premier, I say to the

minister. They are working on something and I am sure that the people of the

Province are interested in what they are working on as it relates to job

creation and some type of training work program. According to the Premier on

Saturday, there were discussions - some type of work in that area, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister that the programs that were announced in the Budget under

his department, as it relates to the different programs, the sixty week program,

the 20/20/20 subsidized program, is that up and running for this new year as of

now, Mr. Minister?

MR. MURPHY: We are finishing off some negotiations and

tying them up now. All members of the House should have a total package as we

did, Mr. Speaker, in conjunction with the Employment Generation Package. All

members will have a full package to understand the Employment Generation

Programs associated with the BRIDGES, which is the womens' program, the student

program is separate and of course the 20/20/20 which is 40/60 employer/employee.

We will have all of that out very soon.

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, maybe the minister could also

enlighten us on the student program for the summer, the youth program for the

summer. Usually around this time of the year, organizations that had had

programs before usually get an application in the mail automatically to apply

for this years program such as with the federal government. Two questions, is

there any word on a federal challenge program yet? Usually it is out around

February I believe and I have not heard much on it yet myself. In relation to

your program for youth, over the next few weeks do you hope to have something

out?

MR. MURPHY: I will suggest that the challenge program

will be announced by Minister Tobin and/or the appropriate minister, Mr.

Axworthy - maybe Mr. Tobin, maybe Mr. Axworthy. That is the federal program,

totally funded federally. The program associated with the stipend for

post-secondary university students, fifty dollars plus their credit back into

their fall semester and what have you. Those programs of course, will be active

this year.

MR. MANNING: Is that a few dollars or two dollars?

MR. MURPHY: A few.

MR. MANNING: A few? Okay, that sounds a little bit

better.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: You see you get up here in the House and you

ask a few questions of the minister and -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes I know. We are just making some comments

on different departments, asking a few questions -

AN HON. MEMBER: It is a Concurrence debate.

MR. MANNING: You get up here in the House and ask a few

serious questions about some programs that concern the people in your district

and the Minister of ITT, who is travelling all over the world trying to find a

few jobs to bring into Newfoundland is now condemning me as a member for

standing up and asking, on behalf of my district, as the member who is

responsible for labour in the Province, a few questions concerning work. I

cannot understand it, Mr. Speaker. I just cannot understand why the Minister of

ITT, with the ambition he has to lead this party into the election, would get on

like this about people looking for work in the Province. Maybe it is jet lag, I

say, Mr. Speaker.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Perhaps he has been down to the vodka -

MR. MANNING: Maybe he was down to the old Carling O'Keefe

building having a look around. Someone said to me the other day that you are

God's gift to Aeroplan. Whatever that means, I do not know, Mr. Speaker. It is

very interesting. I get up and ask some serious questions of the minister for

the simple reason that the questions are being asked me concerning the youth

program for the summer and concerning the Employment Generation Program.

I would also like to say that under Employment and Labour

Relations there is an opportunity to provide work for people in the Province,

and hopefully to come up with some type of programs, not just a job creation

program as much as some type of training that will be associated with those

programs. I would like to ask the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations if

there are any plans within the department to come up with some type of program

that would provide work and training, where a person would train for so many

weeks, then go into the private sector, in some type of subsidy program for the

private sector or something. Not just a short-term emergency program like you

had last winter but something that would be more long-term and more beneficial,

and that hopefully would create more permanent employment. Is there anything

going on within party discussions in relation to something similar to that?

MR. MURPHY: The member is -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I have not recognized the minister.

The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.

MR. MURPHY: As the member is aware I guess the biggest

problem we have in the Province right now is the displacement of all those

people who have lost their livelihood because of the groundfish. We are working

hand in hand with our federal counterparts on an early retirement program which

the member is aware of, both for fishers and plant workers. That is on the upper

end, the finishing end of the work, and we are also discussing with the feds now

a program something similar to what the member is talking about. Of course it

would not be fair to discuss that while negotiations are going on so I just say

to the member that, yes, we are working on those type of programs and

initiatives.

MR. MANNING: I have no problem at all. I heartily applaud

the minister and his officials if they are working on the type of program that

would have some type of training and be work related and that would be long-term

with the possibility of creating more positive jobs.

I say to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation

that I would like to touch on what the Member for Burin - Placentia West was

asking you about, because he called me yesterday all concerned about the fact

that I was thrown out of your office. The Member for Burin - Placentia West

called my home yesterday and asked me what happened at the meeting they had. He

asked, after the rally up on the White Hills did the Minister of Works, Services

and Transportation invite you back to his office for a meeting? As a matter of

fact the Member for Fogo said to the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation: would you mind if we used your board room to have a meeting of

all the concerned groups, to get ready for the rally that was proposed then, for

down at the St. John's harbour front?

We went over and met in the board room of the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation. We were about half an hour into the meeting

when we received a 911 call to get out - to get out, move it - that was it, no

discussion, no explanation. We were sitting down in the minister's board room,

and I didn't mention it because I just followed... They told us to move out, so

we moved out, but the Member for Burin - Placentia West called me yesterday and

wanted to know all the details of what happened over at the minister's office. I

said: Why do you want to know that? He said: I got a phone call from a

businessman in St. John's who is very upset because he heard that this had

happened.

So I explained to him what we had discovered afterwards, that

the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture was very upset because the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, the Member for Port de Grave,

had been in Ottawa a few days before that and dropped into Minister Tobin's

office, had called the Member for Fogo to organize the rally up on White Hills.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, really?

MR. MANNING: Oh, yes. The Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation upset the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture because he

went up to Ottawa on a transportation -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: No, no, I am just trying to explain so we

will make sure that everything is out and everything is straight, I say to the

Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. I wouldn't want it any other way.

Why we got kicked out of the office, I had to tell a little bit of the story

beforehand. What happened was that the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation travelled to Ottawa on transportation business.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) took care of business.

MR. MANNING: Don't worry; I would say the Minister of

Fisheries took care of you much better than he took care of me.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: He told you who you were allowed to have in

your office and who you weren't. I would say that is calling the shots. He told

you who you could have in your office and who you couldn't.

Anyway, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, I

would just like to explain for those who are wondering why we got kicked out of

the office, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, who was in

Ottawa on transportation business, went to see Minister Tobin, called the Member

for Fogo from Minister Tobin's office to tell him to arrange this rally on the

White Hills.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Yes, a good job. I was part of it, and I say

to the minister, a good job. We were up on White Hills that morning and we had a

good crew around. The Member for St. John's East Extern was there.

We were wondering where we could have a meeting, so the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, with what I thought was an

excellent idea, suggested that we meet in his board room. I said: Why not? He

was good enough to give us his board room, and about forty or forty-five of us

went over to the board room and met. We were in the board room for about ten or

fifteen minutes when a call came that we had to get out, move, right away. They

didn't have time to explain the situation, but we had to move. The reason, we

found out afterwards, is that the Minister of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture

was very upset because the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation

allowed us to go into his board room and meet. He said: You are not the Minister

of Fisheries. He pointed his finger at him and said: You are not the Minister of

Fisheries; I am.

The Premier agreed with the Minister of Fisheries, Food and

Agriculture. He ordered the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation to

get those people out of his office, and we had to move.

MR. EFFORD: What were you doing up in St. Anthony?

MR. MANNING: What?

MR. EFFORD: What were you doing up in St. Anthony?

MR. MANNING: I was up there helping to elect the

delegates.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I will tell the Minister of Works, Services

and Transportation, I was sent to St. Anthony on a mission and I delivered. I

delivered in St. Anthony, and I didn't have to buy any coupons. Don't you worry.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING : There you go now, Mr. Speaker. There goes

the minister and the Member for Fogo. I am sorry that the Minister of Works,

Services and Transportation had to leave, because I wanted to touch on the road

work out around the Province. I know that other members have touched on it also,

before me. We have a problem in the districts, in a lot of cases, with roads. I

have calls coming in. As a matter of fact, I have people coming in to see me

tomorrow concerning some certain roads in the district that have been put in

deplorable shape over the past winter, and are in desperate need of repair.

I've talked to the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation on the issue, and hopefully some dollars will become available to

recap or to do something with the roads situation. Because the bus operators are

complaining now, and the schools are complaining, about the roads and the safety

of the children on the roads, due to the situation with the pavement and the

highways over the winter months.

I hope to bring the issue to the Minister of Works, Services

and Transportation and hope that he will do something about it over the next few

weeks, because it is a very serious issue in the district, as many members on

this side of the House and I'm sure on the other side of the House have the same

problems within their districts.

I will touch on another department if I could for a moment.

It is the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. The fact that there is

a serious down loading from the federal government to the provincial government

now has brought forward down loading from the Province to the municipalities. In

the case of many municipalities in my district, it is that due to the closure in

the fishery that the tax base has been almost - I won't say totally eliminated,

but certainly reduced or greatly reduced as to the taxes that can be collected

within the communities. Therefore it is causing some problem for the

municipality to deliver on services and take care of essential services such as

garbage collection and street lighting, et cetera. The fact that the Province is

down loading in some cases because of the federal government down loading on

them, that is making it much more difficult in municipalities.

I've met with most of the councils over the past couple of

months. Several councillors have resigned over the past year or so due to the

fact that they can't seem to make ends meet as it relates to running the

municipalities. I think it is a very serious concern. I talked to the minister.

I'm certainly interested in what the minister plans in relation to regional

councils that they talked about last year. Where my district is spread out so

much in geography it is a concern to many municipalities in the district about

the plans for regional councils and exactly what they will encompass over the

next few years.

I'm pleased to have the opportunity to bring forward some of

those concerns on behalf of the people of the district, and that the hon.

ministers that are responsible for departments will look at rural Newfoundland

in the way that at least - not to write it off, but indeed try to enhance it and

try to make sure it survives. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (Crane): The hon. the Member for Baie Verte -

White Bay.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to rise

to make a few comments today on this Concurrence debate. In particular I'm going

to start off by making a few comments on some discussions I've had recently with

a community in my district that has shown a lot of perseverance lately, and

probably showing perseverance against all odds. That is the community of Harbour

Deep. You know, the great fishing capital. In fact, the Member for St. John's

East Extern is very excited about going there for a little fishing trip maybe

later. Maybe we will.

The community of Harbour Deep. It is a great community used

as an example of a community that has gone against all odds in a lot of ways.

Maybe it is a good example of a community that showed it can persevere and break

the odds and still come out and be positive. It has a community council in place

there now that keeps in contact very well. It also has gotten together and

showed an enthusiastic approach to trying to do something for themselves. As I

say, it was a good example for any community in this Province.

First of all, the thing to realize about Harbour Deep is the

isolation factor. Of course, with the situation there that in the wintertime

they only have a flight that is possible, the only way to get in there. Of

course the summertime there is also the ferry. That particular community, I

guess in respect to a lot of the communities in the Province, has relied so much

on the fishery. As a matter of fact, Harbour Deep I would say was near 95 per

cent maybe of dependence on the fishery. Now even the latest talks I've had with

the people in that community - and I'm glad the Minister of Environment is here,

because I have a concern I want to raise about that particular community with

regards to the environment now in a few minutes - but first of all to just

update the House, because the House has heard me speak often on this particular

community.

They have just received word a little while ago - and the

Minister of Natural Resources probably is aware of this - is that Abitibi, which

owns a large part of the forest land in that area, has decided that they would

give back to the Crown what is known as the Mooney block in that area. The whole

idea of this surfaced about a year ago when of course the resettlement question

came up there. Of course, we went there, we met with the people, and they

started to look at the idea that the fishery will not be the same ever there

again, and if it will ever make an impact on the community again, so they

decided to look at another industry that was possible in that area, and that is

the forestry.

The latest news, Mr. Speaker, is that Abitibi-Price has

decided that they will return that land that they have held for so many years

now in that area called the Mooney Block which is a very good piece of land as

far as the forestry sector is concerned and they have decided to return that to

the Crown.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the next step of course, is for that

community, if they are going to look into the forestry industry in that area

which they haven't before, is that they want to do the right thing, Mr. Speaker,

that's the whole idea. I talked to the mayor just this morning again. They

believe that, you know, if they are going to look at the forest sector in that

Province, the forest industry in that particular area, then they want to do it

right, they don't want to do it ad lib or at once, at one fell swoop and do

something hastily that they might regret later, so they decided that they want

to do it properly and so the next step of course, is to make sure that they do

it properly by having a full study done of the forest industry in that area.

In that light, Mr. Speaker, I know they have contacted

different departments of government and they are looking for funding to have the

study done properly so that if they do turn into a forest industry in that part

of the Province they will do it properly. Now, so far, I can gather from the

council and from the mayor that they have run into some obstacles and of course,

it is the same old story, Mr. Speaker, that relates to so many parts of this

Province and so many people in business and everything else, is that, they have

run into red tape; red tape on top of red tape and of course, now they are being

choked by it and as a matter of fact, that was the mayor's concern this morning

that they have gone through so many departments and have so many faxes come to

them, that they don't know really, where they are as far as the study is

concerned for that area.

So, Mr. Speaker, I bring up that note today so that the

Minister of Forestry would first of all, hear it, that these people want to move

on and try to develop this particular industry in that area and of course, they

are going to need all the help they can get. They are a very small community but

they are trying to do something for themselves and I think the job of any

government, for any community, is to try to make sure they are helped in any way

possible so that they can get through the red tape and bureaucracy that cover so

much of these developments in the Province.

Now they are also having a problem - The Minister of

Environment is in the House right now and I thought I would raise this for them

now and maybe talk to the minister about it again later and that is, they have a

dump in the community that was built not very long ago and, Mr. Speaker, if I am

not mistaken, I would like the Minister of Environment to check into it for us

and find out if that dump was actually built far enough away from the town. From

the complaints I have now, Mr. Speaker, is that the dump is not very far from

the town, it is within two kilometres from what I can figure so far, and that,

Mr. Speaker, poses a lot of environmental problems to the community.

The people in that community are very disturbed right now

because, as a matter of fact they have a dump right on their doorstep, not far

enough away so that the smell doesn't come into the town, so, I hope the

Minister of Environment is aware of this and I will raise it with him again but

the people in the community are very worried about this. Also, in that same

community, the three things they have asked me to raise an