VOL. 3 NO. 43 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED i TRANSCRIPT I HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: f 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, APRIL 28, 1978

April 28, 1978, Tape 1569, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 10:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Mr. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have an important matter on which to inform han. members. Last night I received a call from the R.C.M.P. asking to see me in an official capacity. Later last night at my office two R.C.M.P. officers came, properly indentified themselves and informed me that earli~r yesterday there had been issued to them two search warrants; one for the office of the han. member for Humber East (Dr. Farrell) and one for the office of the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary).

They requested my permission to execute the warrants. I asked to see them and examined them. I felt it was then my duty to undergo a process of verification before deciding on the granti~g of permission. verification not of the merits or lack of merits but on the authenticity of the warrants and the fact that they were issued properly.

I personally got in touch with the judicial officer who authorized and signed the warrants and verified that he had indeed issued the warrants and that it was indeed his signature, and that the warrants had been issued pursuant to the Criminal Code and pursuant to the exercise of his judgement that therewerereasonable and probable grounds for so doing . Having undertaken this process of verification, and having come to the conclusion that it would be improper for me as Speaker to impede a legitimately constitutedpolice enquiry, I gave that permission.

Earlier this morning, very recently before the House opened, I phoned the han. the Premier and the han. the Leader of the Opposition and asked if they would both drop into my office at five minutes to ten and I informed them,together, of what had transpired i . J,

April 28, 1978, Tape 1569, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: and told them that I would, and now do, inform the House as soon as the House opened. There is no direct precedent in the House of Assembly for the set of circumstances which I have just referred to. There is no direct precedent, to my knowledge. After personal consultation with responsible officials-in Ottawa, there was no direct parallel in the practice of the House of Commons._ As hon. members know where our Standing Ordersand precedents are silent, then it is the practice of the House of Commons whichprevails.

After discussion with the officials at Ottawa it appeared to me and to them that if there were such a set of circumstances in Ottawa, the procedure which would be taken is the procedure which I, in fact, took. I point out to hon, members

section 19 of the House of Assembly Act: "The House of Assembly and the members thereof shall hold, enjoy, exercise such and the like privileges, immunities, and powers as are now held, enjoyed,and exercised by the House of Commons of the Parliament of Canada and by the members thereof." That makes the privileges of thts House analogous to the privileges of the House of Commons. My consultation with the House of Commons officials informs me that in a similar set of circumstances the action and the verification undertaken by me would have been the action and verification undertaken there.

I would also refer members to the House of commons Hansard of Novermer 29, page 1347 and following, where a situation occurred not completely analogous but which also is instructive in this matter.

April 28, 1978 Tape 1570 PK - 1 Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, this,as you discussed just prior to our coming in,is a precedent that is being established here now. I am not disputing the fact, Sir, I am saying that I think in this particular case, and on the facts as they surface, this is obviously the correct thing to do, and I certainly respect your ruling. I would,however, Sir, suggest that research be done in other areas about the precedent setting nature of this sort of thing.

I think the sanctity of Parliament, and the sanctity of members of Parliament or members of Houses of Assembly is something that has got to be very carefully preserved, although there are days I know when all of us in here do not do much to preserve the dignity of it.

But the fact is, Sir, that I feel very strongly that this sort of thing,as a precedent move, is something that we have to look at in the freedom of parliaments, in rights of members of parliaments and I would only respectfully suggest, Sir, that Your Honour carry on with obviously what you have done, but with more research before any firm precedent is set. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROHE: Mr. Speaker, as Your Honour has indicated, the Premier and I were given the privilege of being called to your office and informed that this had taken place.

And at that time, Sir, both the Premier and I expressed to you, in your office, what the Premier has expressed now, and what I intend to express now, namely; that in this particular case, which is a special case, we believe the right thing has been done.

But, Sir,it seems to me that if there are going to be privileged communications as, for example, between a lawyer and his client, a patient and his doctor, a person and his clergyman, if there are going to be privileged communic~tions which cannot be used in any court of law and which should be immune from investigation, then those principles should extend at least as strongly to members of this ,_ ' I ' - ~ ~

April 28, 1978 Tape 1570 PK - 2 Mr. W. Rowe: House of Assembly, and particularly to Ministers of the Crown. Now I can say this because I am not a minister of the Crown here and now. There are ministers opposite who have undoubtedly confidential information,received from people in this Province and outside of the Province,which should not become public knowledge, which should not be for anyone else's eyes, which would not have been communicated to the ministers if it had been thought for one moment that there was a possibility of it becoming public or if it was going to be for other people's eyes.

So I agree with the Premier entirely, Sir, the right thing has been done here, But we should go on record as saying that this does not establish a precedent in this hon.

House, that the matter should be researched and looked into, and that this House should jealously guard its rights and privileges against executive action by the police or judicial action by courts or by magistrates and ao on, which may conflict with the ~reat principles of Parliament, one of the great principles being that when people communicate with members of this House, and particularly ministers, that should be immune from scrutiny by any other person or source, whether it is police or otherwise.

I am not clear on it, Sir, and nobody has given any thought to it it dropped like a bombshell. here this morning - but we should, as the Premier has indicated, do considerable research and establish ~~idelines as to exactly what privileges members of this House have, particularly the government.

When I was a minister of the government, Sir, naturally you ha.d things in your office perhaps political things or things which somebody had written you in a confidential way, or notes of telephone conversations and so on, confidential things like that- that if I thought for a minute that a police officer could go downtown and see some magistrate and ~et a ' ~ I. warrant and come into my office on whatever grounds necessary- and l remember,it is the magistrate who decides what is reasonable and probable grounds, and we have great respect for magistrates, but there may be the odd aberation, Sir, I must say that this should not be

April 28, 1978 Tape 1570 Pk - 3 Mr. W. Rowe: established as a precedent in this bon . House1 that we need to. research it . And we need to have guidelines so that every member here, every minist:er, and every member of the public who is interested,knows exactly what communicati ons are subject to protection and immunity from scrutiny by other people, police force or otherwise. SQ}JE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear ~ MR. SPEAKER: 1 have heard the bon. the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition. I do not t.lu.nk it would be appropriate to bear a series of comments. ~!R. NOLAN: On a point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: I will bear a point of order. 'MR. NOLAN: This is one of the most serious matters ever to come before this House concern ing every single member of this Rouse of Assembly and all members to come after us. And surely, Mr. Speaker, if there is ever a time when members have an opportunity I I

April 28,1978 Tape No. 1571 AH-l NR. NOLi\..'<: to speak on something like this,now is the time. It is not any case that is currently before the courts or anything else; it is the rights of every member of this House of Assembly. I say now that there is no one in this House has the authority to speak for me • and I am sure my han. friend would certainly say so, or for that matter for the han. members opposite.

It has nothing to do with the case that w~s discussed during this week, What we are talking about is the rights that we have or do not :.ave that could be now very rapidly eroding here before our eyes, And unless we have set up the proper colliiilittees,or t~hatever,right now as suggested by the han. Premier and as referred to by my han. friend opposite - and I mean this morning- then we are being negligent in our duties. tfR. SPEAKER: I have listened with interest to the comments of han. members and certainly find them very relevant.

Standing .Order 84 provides for t he composition, the establishment of a committee of this !louse on Immunities and Privileges. This IIouse does not have one, I do not have the authorit} ' to establish committees, The House does not have one. In the absence of any refinement by this House,ordefinition or explanation of this House on its'rights and privileges,I have no course but to assume that they are analo6ous with that of the House of Co=ons in Ottawa,-w:lich

Section 19 of The P.ouse of Assembly Act states. And in the absence of any guidelines from a llouse of Ass~bly Cor~ittee on Privileges ,it is the pract:ii&:e there tl~at I nave to follow, and it is ~h " practice t!lere that I familiarized myself with and discussed and ilav<:o follo\veu. I certainly concur wit! 1 :1on. :;Je:..Jbers t:1at it t<ould be a ~r e at ~1 e::. lp to th~ Rouse and to the Chair if there ·.;ere such a functioain g c ocw itt~e. :·ill. SP EAK:i::R: :IA. iliCK:l.:L.~: If I may witil c:1., leave of che llouse . Lion. ~iinister of Justice.

I thaak Your Ho~our for bringing this to cte attention of the };ouse, I have no hesita."'lcy in saying that we on this side of the House concur that there should be a Committee of Privileges

April 28,1'.!70 ;,.iR. tfiCIG·L<\i-1 : Tape ~Io. 15 71 Al-l-2 and Elections,which under the rules consists of five members, This I will be prepared to move,the constitution of such a co~ittee,within the next few days after I have had an opportunity to discuss same with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. HR. SPEAKER: :rn.. W.CARTER: STATE::IEliTS :SY ::1INIST:ZRS Han. ~linister of Fisheries. }tr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce this ~ornin& the awarding of the third and final contract for work undertaken by the ;:;over=eu.t oa two cold storage ;,uilC:ir:gs on t!-~e former US Naval B<lse at Argentia.

This contract,which has been awarded to Josh Roberts & Sons Refrigeration Limited 1 ~sin the amount of $4Z4,778 and,like I said,this is the final contract now for the rehabilitation of the two buildings formerly owned by the US authorities at Argentia,the total cost of which will be in the order of $1 million. These two buildings, ar.

Speaker, will be capable of ;,olding eight to ten million poundB of fresh produce a year and this we feel will certainly be very ;,enefical for the fishing industry and will help to some eAtent to eleviate the shortage of holding capability in the Province at G time of the year when it is badly needed~especially during the glut period. So,like I said,this is now the third , the final contract of three coatracts,the first being for the rebuilding of the buildings, the second one being for the electrical work and this one of course being for the refrigeration work. i·1R.

SPEAKER: Hen. ilinister of :•Lines u.nd Energy. l1R PECJORD: lir. Speu.ker, on such a morning everybody relishes in the thought of making statements right nmv after the earlier eventst ~ut life must go on, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce today the Rural Development Authority held its 76th ueetin;; and approved nineteen applications for financial assistance from entrepreneurs throughout the Province. The applications approved had a total cash value of ~213,000, The loans approved

April 28, 1978 Tape 1572 DW - 1 MR. PEr:'KFOIID : will in addition to helping naintain forty full-time and twenty-two part-time positions directly create twenty-seven new full-time and tl~enty-eig!:l.t part-time jobs. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. PECKFORD: Some of the kinds of activities that are being financed by this latest group of approvals include sawmilling, farming, tourism, more agriculture in the blueberry processing industry and also approval of grants for $12,240 for the department's craft program. It ~~ interesting to note here, Mr.

Speaker, that to date the money disbursed under the Rural Development Authority totals $8,989,746,so I am pleased to be able to make this announcement today and to indicate our ongoing efforts to try to create permanent employment as well as part- time employment. The grants through the craft program include funding through the independent marketing program and the establishment of a revolving f~~d for duffel production in the Bay St. George area. SOME HON. 11EUBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. HR. H. COLLINS: !·!r. Speaker, I would like to announce that }~r.

Robert Peddigrew has been appointed to the position of Executive Director of the Helrtoundland 1-fedicare Commission effective from April 1st. ~r. Peddigrew's appointment was recommended by a search committee which was presided o•~r by the Chairman of the Public Service. Commission. He joined the staff of Newfoundland Medicare C'ol!llllission in 1968 as supervisor of the editing division and in 1970 he was promoted I . I to the position of Assistant ¥anager of Processing and Systems, f and in 1971 became a manager of that division. He is a native of St. John's and received his education at St.

Patrick's and l!emorial University. Prior to joining the Newfoundland ~edicare

April 28, 1978 Tape 1572 }1R. H • COLLINS : Commission he uas employed by the Newfoundland Telephone Company. I would also like to say, Hr. Speaker, that ~'r. Peddigrew succeeds l"'.r. Roy C. Moores who was the first Executive Director of the Medicare Commission, a man with a number of years of service in the Department of Health, a man lvho did a great job in that particular field and I want to express on behalf of the government our sincere thanks to Mr. l'oores and also our best wishes to Hr. Peddigrew. SOl'!E RON • MEl-f.BERS : Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS DW - 2 }1R.

SPEAKER: Presenting reports by Standing and Special Committees; Do we have leave to revert to petitions1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: 1ffi. . SPEAKER: Placentia West. Agreed. The hon. member for Burin - l1R. P. C~~ING: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition to this hon. House~ Mr. Speaker, I will give the prelude to the prayer of the petition that was passed to me to present to this House which it is my duty to do at this time. ~lr.

Speaker, I am going to ask for the silence of the House because I have had the experience of presenting many petitions _ I actually know the number-to this House over a period beginning with my first one twenty­ nine years ago. I presented twenty-eight or twenty-nine 1 and this one is without doubt-! have no doubts whatsoever-is by far the most important petition that I have ever presented to this House of Assembly, I am hoping that I 1Yill get the attention of t!'!e l!inister of Justice and others while I a~ presenting it. To the hon. House of Assembly - nm• in session· anr1 ,!"r.

Speaker, I am hoping that the Premier will listen to _· it because I have just said that it is one of the most important petitions I have ever presented to this House. But anyway,

April 28, 1978 Tape 1573 EC - 1 HR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, if they are not going to listen I will raise my voice. I hope I will be heard because my opinion of this petition is it is today the petition of the people of Newfoundland. And I will again repeat the words of my petitioners: "To the hon. House of Assembly now in session. We, the undersigned parents, teachers" - and in this case, _, . I Mr.

Speaker, the people who are parents and also teachers - "humbly sheweth our disagreement with the government's inflexible stand on a twenty-six to one pupil/teacher ratio that will cause in total the primary school, the elementary and central high school at Marystown to lose three teachers in September of this year - a total of three teachers - resulting in serious deterioration in music, physical education, remedial programmes and in programmes for slow learners.

We fear the consequences of such reduced programme~ coupled with increased work loads for pupils and teachers will be a lowered morale throughout the school and thereby cause serious increase in the drop-out ratio." I repeat that, Mr. Speaker, I- I the drop-out ratio. "We, the undersigned subjects of 1: I Her Majesty, humbly pray that the han.

Rouse now in session give immediate consideration that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador withdraw its inflexible stand on the twenty-six to one pupil/teacher ratio in order to avoid any cutback in the number of teachers until such time that the appointed Task Force on education has completed its work and reported its findings and recommendations." AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, there have been traditional words used down through the years ever since I· the people of Newfoundland have had the blessing of the

..! April 28 , 1978 Ta p e 1573 EC - 2 MR. CANNING: House of Assemb .ly, the centre through which they ca:n express their wishes and voices. The traditional words have been - I have always heard them - the member presenting the petition usually will say, "Mr. Speaker, this petition speaks for itself." Mr. Speaker, I do not mind using them again although th~y are traditional. This petition, without doubt, does speak for itself clear and loud, Mr. Speaker. And in this petition there are some twenty signatures from the primary school at Marystown. ·Mr.

Speaker, it is a petition on behalf of that entire school and the entire Burin Peninsula, which makes it very important, and one of my comments would be, I think it is tbe voice of the people of New.fou.ndland today. Now, Mr. Speaker, ,this is one time that I feel almost inadequate to support this petition that I will give my feelings on. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman's time has expired. MR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, if I could have the leave of the House - MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? The hon. gentleman,by leave . ~1R. CANNING: -I will just add'One

April 28, 1978 Tape No. 1574 NH - 1 MR. CANNING: one sentence: I will implore the House on both sides now, to stand up and be· counted and to support this petition. I would be asking that - I would be laying emphasis if I had more time at my disposal - on the fact that government, I think this government or this House should today, agree to at least wi~hhold this regulational rule or policy, whatever you might call it, on the teachers ratio and we should not apply this cutback until such time as a task force has done its work and reported its recommendations.

I ask the petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure !~ to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague and ! friend from Burin - Placentia West (Hr. Canning). ~ir, I might point out in support of the petition that the han. member who now represents Burin - Placentia West, and I stand to be correct~d, was first elected to the han. House of Assembly in 1949, in 1949 elected to the House of Assembly.

He had one brief,involuntary leave of absence and he has since returned but I can safely say that this member is the most experienced member of this House of Assembly and he has said, he own words here this morning, that this to him is one of the most important petitions that he has ever presented, or he has heard presented in this House because it speaks for the whole voice of :le,~foundland with respect to the student/ teacher ratio.

Now, Sir, this petition has been signed by both teachers and parents and it speaks to the twenty-six to one student/ teacher ratio, and the petition itself gives a concrete example of what is going to happen in that Marystown area school because of the inflexible stand of the government on the student/teacher ratio, the implementation of the third phase_ not implementing it- and thereby causing a layoff of three teachers. ihree teachers from that one school? Three teachers in three schools~ is: it?

April 28, 1978 Tape No. 1574 N}! - 2 AN HON. ME}ffiER: One teacher in each. HR. F. ROWE: Yes. One teacher in each of the schools, Sir, and the member has pointed out that this will cause the cancellation of all of these courses of study outside of the basics. Now, Sir, we have been standing up in this House of Assembly, at least since I have had the honour of being a member and we have been speaking about education and ~•e have been talking about the importance of other activities in the school other than the basics, the three R's and this kind of thing.

Row important music education is, physical education is, remedial education is and all these other types of activities that could go on in the school, how important they are to the education of the student, And the member has demonstrated this morning that because of this inflexible stand of the government, three teachers will be lost and there will be a serious deterioration in these other very important aspects and sectors and factors of education in the school. And, Sir, I had the pleasure two or three weeks ago, along with the member for Grand Falls (}!r. Lund rig an) of attending a function at the St.

George 1 s High School in New Harbour where studo;nts became involved in certain aspects of the fisheries and took several days off from their regular courses of study to do an in-depth study of the sealing industry and getting guest speakers in with their slide presentations and experts and what have you. And, Sir, these students learn more about the way of life of certain parts of Newfoundland than they would ever learn i~ ~~y formal courses of study in that school. That is the type of thing that is going to be missing from our school now if we continue on with this inflexible stand, Sir.

And I agree with the member whole-heartedly, that there should be a complete freeze on the layoff of teachers until the educational Task ~·orce has completed its study and reported its 1.. j.- ! i ' '

April 28, 1978 Tape 1575 EC - 1 HR. F. ROWE: findings and made its recommendations. I think any layoff of teachers before that educational Task Force has completed and made its report would be a very serious, premature error on the part of the government. And with that, Sir, I would like to give my full support to this petition so ably presented by my colleague and friend from Burin- Placentia West (Mr. Canning). HR. CROSS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. CROSS: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition. MR. WHITE: A point of o:der, Mr. Speaker . HR.

SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. WHITE: We want to speaK on this petition. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Apparently, there are other hon. members who wish to speak on the previous petition. AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Right. The han. the member for Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, in rising to support this petition, it is indicative, I think, of the vast majority of people in Newfoundland today showing their concern with the government's new policy in · the reduction· of the ratio of teachers in this Province. ~ow, ' ' ! Mr. Speaker, in supporting the petition I am only going to read a letter.

And I do not want to be asked to table t this letter because I just received it yesterday and I do not have copies made of it. But it is so fitting and refers directly to the petition which my hon. colleague

April 28, 1978 Tape 1575 EC - 2 CAPT. E. lHNSOR: here to my left just presented. And the letter is addressed to me. It is from a concerned parent of Deadman's Bay in Fogo district. And it says, "I am sure that this is not the first letter,." - and I might add~ nor is it - "that you will get on the subject of the recent decision of the government for cutbacks in educa~ion in this Province. Do you know that Cape Freels Integrated School Board will lose 5 per cent" - Nr. Speaker, this board will lose 5 per cent of its teachers.

"Your children" - referring to me - "do not attend any of these schools, but mine do and I am very, very concerned about this. I have heard that one of the principal industries in this Province" - and of course, that is nothing new to be heard - "is the fishing industry. As far as I ~m concerned, because my husband is a fisherman, my children do not get the same education as a family in St. John's or Gander. Most of the fishermen in this Province live in the outports and, of course, their children are educated in the outports.

I feel that my children are entitled to the same education as a neighbour's children in the city. I am fed up with hearing that government does not have the money for education. The government has the money to print fancy letters and information about sealing and promoting tourism. If the government wants to keep the ratio of teachers and students at twenty-six to one, then the only hope at present is to make sure that we have a lot more babies in this area to insure that our children can receive a pro~er education.•~ I do not know what that means.

"The education that my children receive is at best minimal and this is not good enough. Fight, Mr. Winsor, like you never fought before to get the government to change their decision. If I and others can be of any further help, please do not hesitate to let us know."

April 28. 1978 Tape 1575 EC - 3 CAPT. E. IHNfOR : Mr . Speaker, I think that letter speaks very well, and it is coincidental that I should have received this yes terda y and my hon. colleague pres ent ed this petition here today. I strongly support that petition and I am su r e, Sir, that it affects the whole populace of Newfoundland. And I am sure the government must no'~ give serious consideration .whethe :r -. or not they will carry on on their original course or take the necessary action to change their programme on education. DR. COLLINS : Hr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The bon . the member for St.

John's South. DR . COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of this petition and in doing so I woul~ like to make just ewo points in giving my support to it. The first point is that I would say that all .parents in the Provi11ce recognize that the primary responsibility for education rests with thetll. And ! would think that every pa.rent is very jealous of this right and

April 28, 1978 Tape No. 157 6 Nl1 - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: responsibility that the education o£ their children is in their hands in the primary sense and in no way is it passed over to the state and that if it were passed over to the state this would be a sad day for our type of democracy. The role of the state in education,I would suggest,is one of support to the parents and this is a role that the state has to take extremely seriously.

The other point about the role in education I think, in our Province, is that this is primarily.excercised by the parents through their religious affiliations and I would think that the majority of people in this Province would have it no other way at this time. The second point I would like to make, !1r. Speaker, in supporting this position is that in supporting education, the state, and in our case the provincial government, should recognize that it is working on a very broad plane. It is npt only supporting one aspect of the activities of this Province, it has to support all activities.

It should not direct its attention in one area so that others are unduly brought into disrepair or are unduly detrimented and I am sure that in support of education the state will remember its responsibilities towards employment, towards other social services, and towards other activities in the public domain· MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova followed by the hon. member for Ferryland. ~!R. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great privilege to stand and speak in support of this petition and here, Mr.

Speaker, we have a clear cut example of a situation where the teacher cutbacks will seriously effect a particular school, or a particular community, a particular area. Three teachers losing - three teachers \-lhich the petitioners said would affect physicial education, music, remedial programmes and programmes for slow learners. Now, Mr. Speaker, these are not at all frills. These are important areas of work for any school, for any school board ~physical I l ( I l .. .. . t

April 28, 1978 Tape No. 1576 NM- 2 MR. LUSH: education, m1.•sic and remedial progral!ll!les and programmes for slow learners, or disabled learners. These are very important programme·s and it is indeed very, '!ery - it must be a concern to every member of this House of Assembly that we are going to see an area in which these programmes are going to have to be dropped or severely curtailed. And here again is an example of quality education being affected by the teacher cutbacks.

There are two major results really of teacher cutback;s and I alluded to these when I was speaking to the debate in the Education estimates a w£ek ago,! think, today. And I was pointing out the two major results of teacher cutbacks, one resulting in multiple classroom situations where a teacher would have to teach more than one class, which is certainly a most undesirable situation particularly today with the demands of the 1970's, the 1980's, with the kind of educational de~ands that people are put~ing on teachers, that there is no 1vav that a teacher can handle sufficiently more than one class.

And the other result of teacher cutbacks would be the reduction in programmes,and here this is illustrated in this particular petition. People are saying that they a.re going to be losing some of their important programmes, namely physical education, music, and some of the other programmes geared towards helping disabled learners_ or disadvantaged learners, I should say, Hr. Speaker, rather than disabled, disadvantaged learners. So this certainly will have a most serious effect on the educational programme in that area.

The petition alluded to the ratio• the inflexible ratio that the government was applying in allocating teachers throughout this Province, the twenty-six to one. Mr. Chairman, there is no question about it that this ratio will severely effect some areas while not having too much effect on other areas. And we have alluded to this that it is the areas of rural Newfoundland thatare going to be wast

April 28, 1978 Tape No. 1576 NM - 3 ~IR. LUSH: severely affected by the imposition of that inflexible formula. Now for the benefit of hon. members, I could give you,

April 28, 1978 Tape 1577 PK - 1 Mr. Lush: for example, the breakdown of the pupil-teacher ratio throughout Canada to give you some idea where we stand in Newfoundland, because we are talking about a ratio- here we are talking about a twenty-six to one. Now we must remember that is the formula used by which we allocate teachers, by which we assign teachers. There are areas where that ratio would be lower than that. There would be areas where it is much, much higher.

But the pupil-teacher ratio right throughout Canada, for example, in British Columbia, it is 18.6, and that is the teacher-pupil ratio right across Canada, the average 18.6. Alberta 18.6, Saskatchewan 18.7, Manitoba 17.8, and we just come to Newfoundland and ours is 19.7 the average, just about 20 pupils per teacher. The average for Canada is 18.6. That is the average for Canada, the average pupil-teacher ratio is 18.6, ours is 19.7.

If we were to use the Canadian average in this Province, if we were to try and achieve the Canadian average of 18.6 1 that would mean in this year hiring just about 500 extra teachers in this Province. MR. J. CARTER: That does not mean though that the classroom classes should have about eighteen or nineteen pupils in a class? MR. LUSH: No. MR. J. CARTER: All of the speciality teachers are locked in with that. LUSH: That is right. All of these- in this ratio,by the way, all the teachers are included. MR. J. CARTER: (Inaudible) superintendents. MR. LUSH: Yes.

Everybody involved in the field of education in this breakdown. MR. J. CARTER: Principals and vice-principals. MR. LUSH: Yes. You see, what we must see is the difference in the allocation of teachers.We are talking about twenty-six to one, right? We are talking-that is just for the allocation, In this breakdown

April 28, 1978 Tape 1577 PK - 2 Mr. Lush: of getting the average everything is included to get the average. But if we were to try and approach the Canadian average right on by 18.6, which is the Canadian average, the Canadian ave~age of teacher-pupil ratio, 18.6 students to every teacher, if we were to approach that in this fiscal year it would result in hiring 475 additional teachers. And that is where we should be going, but instead of that we are laying off approximately 130. And, Mr.

Speaker, to indicate that that will not affect quality, educational equality,is something that nobody can defend, it is an indefensible position, And we cannot defend the position whatsoever to say that these teacher cutbacks will not affect quality education as they are doing so drastically down in the hon. member's district, And

whereas we are laying off teachers this is what we should oe trying to approach, the Canadian average 1which means that we would be this year employing 475 additional teachers instead of laying off 130. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Ferryland. MR. C. POWER: I would like to rise and support the petition presented by the most experienced member of the House of Assembly,who has been here for close to thirty years, myself here being the least experienced member.

It shows that the House can co-operate on matters of common interest, that the oldest, the most experienced member on one side can easily co-operate with the youngest and least experienced member on the other side on a matter that has come general public interest.

One thing that bothers me about this educational cutback is that it seems that sometimes when goverment makes an unpopular decision or a budgetary decision,that it is almost done so without feeling, I would just like to assure the members opposite that we as parents, as past educators on this side of the HOuse, the minister himself as a parent and a past educator,certainly has a great deal of personal concern, and personal interest in this problem. I feel also that maybe the decision was maae without proper or adequate consultation with the ~TA, and with other persons interested ~ I .I I I .. t~ I i j: I

April 28, 1978 Tape 1577 Pk - 3 Mr. C. Power: in education. As I say, I rise to support the petition. There is one word in the petition that, and I suppose it is a matter of interpretat~on,that I find hard to reconcile myself with, !Uld that is that the petition continuously uses the word 'inflexible~ that we are not flexible . on this matter. And I find that by setting up a Task Force last week to study the ramifications of this issue, is in effect saying that we are flexible, that we are willing to listen to r ~_ I interested persons within the Province, we are willing to take their solicitations.

And I assume once that Task Force presents its report, is that if it suggests that we shou.ld go back to the original format, if it is budgetarily possible, then I assume we are flexible, and as a government we shall reconsider ~t is taking place. And I certainly would hope that .governmen .t would do. that after the Task Force report is presented. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! -' J .

April 28, 1978 Tape 1578 DW- 1 MR. C. POWER: I would also would like to say that in this matter that on education,having supported a petition previously presented by one of the hon, ~embers, that education is a concern to everyone.As politicians, as taxpayers, we are spending in this Province over $300. million in education and I as a parent, a politician,and a taxpayer . am somewhat concerned that maybe we are not getting $300. million of value fro~ our educational system.

And I would hope that when this Task Force which will study specifically the pupil - teacher ratio that after that is done that maybe there will make a sincere and complete evalution of the educational system in ~1ewfoundland to make sure we are getting our money's worth and that our students are getting their money's worth,which is a very important factor.

An awful lot of the money spent in education do not get directly into the school system and is the problem that I think we in a province,not a very rich Province,have got to consider; In closing I would like to say that I find pleasure in supporting the petition presented by the member for Burin - Placentia Hest (:1:r. C-anning).

It is a petition that causes all of us a great deal of concern~myself as a parent and an ex-teacher certainly as much concern as any, and I just said that I c'.a hope that t•hen the Task Force is comolete that government will not be inflexible and will consider trlth a great deal of concern the reports of that :<:ask Force. Thank you, ~1r. Speaker. ~'R. SPEAKE::..: The hon. member for Burgee - 3ay d' Espoir. ~'R. R. S D-!MONS: }rr. Speaker, it my great pleasure to support the petition presented so ably by my colleague for Burin - Placentia West.

I believe the petition, and the parade of petitions we have had in recent weeks in this House suggests the need for a full scale debate on this

April 28, 1978 Tape 1578 DW - 2 HR. R. SU<MONS: sub~ect. It is an issue that ·certainly members of the House want to address themselves to and judging by the number of nmnes appearing on petitions it is certainly something that the public of Newfoundland and Labrador Hant to address themselves to. The figure of 130 or 135 teachers as being the number to be laid off is bein~ used. For round figures, Hr. Speaker, if you assume that about 150 were to be laid off this year and assume that they were an average-say if you assume 150 were to be 1when I say laid off I mean a 150 fewer positions this year.

A.l'l RON • MEMBER: It is 127 this year. l'!R. R. sn~~O}!S : Yes, I am just going through an excercise in terms of round figures to make a point 1o1hich I do not think is argumentative.! am not intending to be that.! just want to make a point related to the petition. If you assume the 150 fewer positions at an' average of grade three teaching license ow teaching certificate with threezyears experience. The salary bill would amount to $1,949,700 in respect to these 150 positions. If, Mr.

Speaker, instead of laying off these 150 the government agreed to send 250 teachers on sabbatical- 250,not 2 as vre are noing but 250 this year at half salary, and assume that the persons going on leave at an average of a grade six teaching certificate with eleven years experience at the top of the grade six scale,e~ve him ~alf salary.half of $22,358. The salary hill for that t.;ould be- or I am sorry, t!le salary saving,because they 'rould be on half salary instead of full salary while they are on sabbatical salary,saving in respect to these two 250 people on sabbatical would be $2,794,750. In other words, Mr.

Speaker, if the 250 went on sabbatical the department could not only keep· on the 150 that it would otherwise have laid off 1 it could aleo, ~r. Speaker, hire 100 graduates :I .,

April 28, 1978 Tape 1578 OW- 3 ~IR. R. SU!!!ONS: from the uviverlsty on an internship program at another ~8 ,450,the bottom of the scale. The net eftect, ~. Spe~~r. ~ould be t~at ~e would keep t he 150 teachers that ~e are now laying off,we would take a 100 university students ..,ho •Joule! otherwi-se be without jobs and put them on the payroll and - 'IR. HBITE: You should be Minister of Finance . HR. R.

Sl?-!J>IONS: - we woul~ send 250 away on sabbatical,and we would do all that at no additional cost to the treasury,not one cent additional to the treasury. ;)low the figures are ".)allpark figures and where I say 150 it :!light have to be 147 or where I say 250 it might have to be 240 but the figures are ballp ark figures just to make the point. l<lhat I am saying in effect in response to the comment from my friend for Ferryland (~1r.

PoYer) about flexibility or othenri.se is that there are a number of options here and the cutback of 127 ceac:hers is by no tDean.s the only option that could have been explored. . l I

April 28,1978 Tape No. 1579 AH-1 HR. SH~lONS: If I were not a full time politicans I would, if I had a savory farm and sat in the House part-time on the side,! would certainly accept a cutback because I could afford it. SmlE RON. ·~!EMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. Sn!c·lONS: Pardon? NR. POWER: I am just suggesting, 'would that not compound the problem in 1989 or 1979 or 1980? :1R. snmoNS: Mr.

Speaker, as I understand it,without getting_ into the realm of debate, I understand that the problem is a short-term one and that the third O?ha~e of the teacher - pupil ratio has not been dispensed with,it has just been frozen for a year or two pending better financial conditions, ~at this would do is buy time. I have looked ahead two years_ che people who did the figures for me looked ahead two years,and you could repeat this process for a couple of years.

The member for Ferryland (Mr.Power) is right that after about the third year it would begin to catch up on you financially •• It is predicated on the same premise that the decision to hold off the third phase of the teacher-pupil ratio is predicated,that in two or three years we will be into better financial times and we will be able to continue to implement the earlier proposals. I put that to che i~ouse, ~·1r. Speaker, as a suggeJtion, as an option and I would fiore that it would be brought to the attention of the llinister of Education.

I think it has real merit and it woulJ have the effect of creatiug one hundred jobs and retainiL.g cne l1undred and fi£ ty tnat were ot11erwise goiug to be dispe:....sed ·.dth this year; it would. have t!1e eff.:oct of giving us two i1t.mdr.:od and fifty raore job positior.s in tl1e Province than '"e .G.re goiug to hav~ u::.G.cr t~e present arra.agecents or t~~e arrang.ame.nt t1lat is preseD.tly proposed. I certainly support tl1e petition, :1r. Speaker, heartily support it and lvaut to add my endorsation to the very able remarks made by the member for Burin-Placentia \.jest (Hr. Canning) on

April 28 ,197S ~!R. Sllr•IONS: ~JR. SPEAKER: i:!R. liiCRM&'I; Tape ~lo. 1579 AH-2 the subject. Hon. }li.nister of Justice. I have a word in support of the petition. I do believe that we have strayed a great deal fro~ the prayer of the petition that was presented by ~y next-door neighbour,the hon. member f?r Burin - Placentia \·;est (Nr. Canning) in which the petitioners, tnrough aim,expressed concern over the losing of three teaching positions in their school district area and presumably felt that this may have some serious effect on the quality of education.

I have some difficulty in following the supportive position for the petition taken by the hon. t;~ember for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (ar. Simmons). He allege~ that if we created sabbatical leave for 250 teachers at half salary that that salary would be only $2.5 million instead of $5 million,as I understand it,if they remainded working full time. This uoulcl thereby enable the Prttvince to retain the other ::eaci1ers whose positions are now redundant or will r:.1>t be operative next year.

But that in effect means that we are adding $2.5 million to the annual budget because those who would be retained would still be getting the maximum salary under their grade and certainly if there was an additional hundred hired this year on top of that I do not see how that could constitute a saving out I do see it constituting an additional expenditure of $2.5 million. I think, Hr. Speaker, -.·hat we cannot lose sight of in supporting these petitions is that - and I say first as the Minister of Finance . ~hat that kind of a decision is as much a budgetary decision as anything else.

Any Xinister of Finance,if he wants to be totally popular, all he has to do is lash out all t::.e money the people ask for,vhct~er you have it or not. , That is not feasible .::.or responsible because you only then pass on to your successor the obligation of s;iutting dov;n the ~~orks and I am not going to do that. But, Nr. Speaker, it is significant that in 1973-1974 we had in this Province 6403 regular teachers, We had no specialist

April 25,1978 Tape No. 1579 AH- 3 HR. HICK:!lu~: teachers but we had 557 special education teachers for a total of 6960 teachers with a pupil enrolment of 159,831, In 1978~1979 we will have in this Province 6460 regular teachers, 355 specialist _ teachers, 711 special education teachers,for a total of 7526 teachers whilst at the sace time our schooi population has dropped -.I . I ' .. ' f

April 28, 1978, Tape 1580, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: which means, Mr. Speaker, that between the school year 1973-74 and 1977-78, the student enrollment decreased by 3669 pupils. And during that same peiod, the specialist teachers increased by 539 and the special education teachers by 154 for a total of 693 additional teachers. The result is that for this school year there is a projected reduction of 127. And it is a fact, Mr. Speaker, that everywhere in the Western World where we have seen this very - MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. A point of 9rder has come up. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, it i .s now clear that the minister is not speaking in support of the petition at all, but indeed, speaking against the petition. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that that is not permitted under the rules and tradition of this House. The minister is now clearly demonstrating in his argument that the cutback of 127 is justified. The prayer of the petition is that it is not justified, that the opposite is true. Now the minister cannot have it both ways. Either he can support the petition or he can be against it, but if he is against it he cannot speak in support of it. That is axiomatic and I would ask that Mr.

Speaker instruct the minister to either support the petition or just discontinue participating in the exchange. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER MR. HICKMAN: Speaker. May I? MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: Oh, oh~ Order, please! To that point of order, Mr. The han. House Leader. I will say this, that what I am trying to do is to bring to the attention of the House

April 28, 1978, Tape 1580, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: how the quality of education may be affected either for good or for bad as a result of the petition so ably presented by my colleague for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Canning). I did wander from the prayer of the petition when I responded to the irrelevant comments of the member for Burgeo -Bay d' Espoir and I apologize for that. . I strayed from th.e rules, I should not have responded to that comment because it was not relevant. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Order, please!

Hon. members are aware, of course, that no debate is permitted on petitions, but that statements not exceeding five minutes are permitted as long as they refer to the material allegations in the petition. I would encourage hon. members to keep within those confines. The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: In concluding my very few brief remarks in support of this petition, Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest that all hon. members of this House in their concern for education follow the path that is now being so properly followed by educators and school boards, that whilst there may be fewer regular classroom teachers, that this gives us a splendid opportunity to develop and to spend more time with specialist teachers in other areas other than those that have been mentioned.

This will give us an opportunity, I suspect, in improving the quality of education and in supporting this petition on the quality of education, to spend more time providing programmes for the emotionally disturbed, the multi-handicapped and those whose education is hampered through hearing or slight impairment. That is why I am so pleased to support that petition. •J

April 28, 1978, Tape 1580, Page 3 -- apb MR. CANNING: Would the hon.minister yield for a question? MR. HICKMAN: Oh,yes. Sorry~ Sorry! MR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the minister because this petition does come from his district as well as mine, the whole Burin Peninsula. I am asking the minister if he would tell the House if he agrees that the government should hold off on the cutback in teachers until such time as the Task Force has done its work and reported its recommendations. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CANNING: Does he agree with that or does he -not? MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! I am afraid I do have to point out that the hon. minister's time.has elapsed, His five minutes in commenting on this has elapsed. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CANNING: Is it yes or no? Does he agree or disagree? MR. SPEAKER(collins) : The hon. Minister of Inter- governmental Affairs. MR. DOODY: If there is anyone else speaking on this particular petition I will yield. I have another petition here, Mr. Speaker. MR. MCISAAC: I was just standing - MR. DOODY: Oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Inter- governmental Affairs. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Bell Island in the district of Harbour Main - Bell Island. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOODY: This petition was assembled by the Bell Island Kiwanis Club in co-operation with the town ~ I

April 28, 1978 Tape 1581 EC - 1 MR. DOODY: Council of Wabana and represents the wishes and ideas of a great many different sectors and segments of the populace of the 7,500 to 8,000 people who live on Bell Island. The petition represents their feelings regarding the ferry service, or the lack of service that the island has had to live with during the past years. situation. I am sure hon. members are aware of this I will try to summarize it as briefly as I can, Sir, without minimizing the impact of the ferry service on the island.

Obviously, any of the members of this House who represent districts which are isolated areas know how important that ferry link might be. In this particular case the 7,500 or 8,000 permanent residents as well as the many people from the mainland

section of our Province as it relates to Bell Island who use that ferry service have outlined their thoughts in some detail. The general consensus is, Your Honour, that the ferry is not large enough. I can attest to that personally, as I have had the experience, as I am sure many of us have, of waiting for that particular ferry. There are people who try to get home on the 4:00P.M. ferry to the island and it is often 8:00 or later before they get away from Portugal Cove. My last trip to the island was on Wednesday past, Your Honour, and I had to catch the l:CO P.M. boat to come back to St. John's.

Fortunatel y , I left my car in Portugal Cove and did not bring it over to. the island so I managed to come back, but there were as many cars left on the island as there were on that John Guy, which takes about 22 - 24 vehicles. So the basic concern is a larger ferry, one that is capable of carrying the kind of traffic that Bell Island has to service and one that is able to • i

April 28, 1978 Tape 1581 EC - 2 MR. DOODY: operate in adverse weather conditions in terms of Conception Bay, and that does not mean a particularly heavy,ice-reinforced ship, just a reasonable ship with sufficient power to handle the winds and some ice from time to time. The two ships that are there now, the Katherine, which is a stand-by ferry ~nd operates • I in conjunction with the John Guy for several months of the year, and which is paid for by the Government of Newfoundland, .is really a stand-by ferry and is not adequate for the service either.

So the people feel that an improvement has to be made in the ferry service, and they also feel that an improvement has to be made in the terminals and in the parking areas, particularly on the Beach Hill on Bell Island. So part of this petition relates to the Government of Newfoundlan'd and particularly to the f Department of Transportation and Communications, and I will ! certainly see to it, Your Honour, that it receives adequate attention in that department. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. DOODY: There is a great deal of it which relates to the Government of Canada.

We are presently engaged in negotiations with the Department of Transport in Ottawa regarding the island ferry services, not only the Bell Island ferry service, but the ferry services in some of the Northeastern areas of the Province, and hopefully,- during the process of these negotiations 9 we may be able to do something to help the people on Bell Island to attain this very worthwhile objective. Needless to say, Sir, I fully endorse the sentiments of the people on the island. In this regard I have had a great deal of personal experience

April 28, 1978 Tape 1581 EC - 3 MR. DOODY: lack thereof. with the ferry service, or I realize that there are people in this House who experience varying degrees of the same type of frustration in their particular areas of the Province, and so, Sir, I pass this to one of the Clerks, ask it to be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. Thank you. CAPT. E. WINSOR: MR. SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Fogo.

I support the petition presented by the hon. minister and I am sure what applies to the ferry service between Portugal Cove and Bell Island applies to a great many areas of this Province. I can think of the Greenspond one, the Fogo !~land ferry, the Little Bay Islands one, the St. Brendan's one. They all now appear to be inadequate. And it is very interesting - a few years ago, not so many years ago, the Bell Island service was operated by two much smaller boats than the ones they have there now - the Kipawo and the Minoco.

And there was one period when I, myself,had the good fortune in a much smaller vessel than either of the ones I have mentioned of operating that service from Bell Island to Portugal Cove. The service was maintained, and that is about all you could say about it. You know,

April 28,1978 Tape No. 1582 AH-1 CAPT .E WINSOR: the lifeline was continued between the two places. But now it appears and - I suppose in the heydays of Bell Island much smaller boats could take care of the service there,but now it appears that they cannot do it any longer and there are good reasons for it. There is a great increase in the number of vehicles which we did not have even ten years ago,so this is bringing more demand on the ferry services. ?eople travel to <lay and t:1ey ,.au.t to .so all t:1e -way by car, leave ~t.

John's and go to Portu~;al Cove and put their car on 1 wilereas a fe'; years ago people were c011tent to zo by bus or by taxi to Portugal Cove and cross on t~e ferry to Bell Islm1d anJ t:~n of course cowe back and pick up a taxi or ferry again. Ilut, :1r. Speaker, t::.i;, is a ~roblem that the minister is going to have to face because if,as we understand,the ferry services of this Province will be tai;ea over by t::.e provincial governmer:.t, then of course the baby is going to be placed right in the lap the hon, :linister and Tra<.1sportation,if he ls .otill.i..:J. t:w.~ ?Ortfolio and I hope he -will be.

SONE i:ION. NE.1BERS : Oh, oh! CAPT. WiiiSOR: .Well this may happen, There is a limit on this,you know, The ferry services are to be taken over I believe within five or six mont:1s,and so we would not wish the minister to be without his salary at that short a period, But anyway it is beginnL~g to get a serious problem in transportation and I am sure it affects all the areas -where we have ferries operating. NO\• I can understand the frustration of the people of Bell Island but t:1ey have t<m fairly large ferries there now and it is HR. DOODY: The two do not opel!Olte.

C.\PT. \i'Il~SOR: That is the poL""J.t I \vas going to illake, Hhy do not t:1e two ferries operate, one going and one cotling'? cJR. DOODY: That is one of the requests. It is a matter (inaudible) a million dollar subsidy gotten on the one ferry. CAPT. WINSOR: I know $1 million sounds like a lot of money today,but when you are operating ships $1 million does not seem to be too much money to operate a service such as Bell Island. j- 1 ! !· !

April 28,1978 Tape No. 1582 ~..H-2 CAPT, '..IINSOR: I would rather see perhaps the two ferries operating all year round and then that should provide a better service because if you are going to put all your eggs into one basket and go for one boat then you have no back-up service and I do not think that any company will be able to provide the type of boat and the size of boat that is required on Bell Island in order to keep the traffic flowing,so it is a matter I an sure the minister is going to have to give a lot of consideration to. I certainly support the petition, !-lr.

Speaker, and trust that some action will be given to that service,not only to that service but to other ferry services operating in this Province. ;m. SPF.IAKER: Hon. member for St. George's. HRS :1ciSAAC: lfr. Speaker, I beg leave to present MR. SEfr10NS: Mr. Speaker, could I just speak for a moment, just very brief and to the point? Before we go on to the other petitions I would like just to have a ~rief word on the petition presented by the meQber for Harbour Main-Bell Island (Mr. Doody). First of ail, ar.

Speaker, let me say to him that iii is delightful, nothing short of delightful, if I could get his ear :m. DOODY: (Inaudible) • . :1R. SL11-10NS: Okay. -delightful to see the minister in the supplicant role for a change, in the praying position. He now knows how the people of Gaultois and McCallum, Ramea and Francois and Grey River feel.

I support his petition on one condition, Hr. $peaker, that it is a tandem effort, it is an effort that involves not only the improv~ent in f~rry services on Bell Island but a tandem effort which involves ferry services waich he and his administration have committed for the Gaultois - ~lcCallum area as well. Hear, hear! :·lR. SPEAKER: Eon. member for St. George's. MRS MciSAAC: Hr. Speal<:er, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of ninety-two residents of the community of :·1attis Point in the I ·' -I .I 1: I

Tape ;;o, 15£2 Ali-3 a;.~s i·:ciSA.\C: discrict of St. George's. The prayer of che petition is ,' 1 We the undersigned residents of t~1e coiUiaunity of :·rat tis Point in the provincial district of St. George's 1 do hereby petition this Depar~ent of Transportation and Communications to upgrade and pave the stretch of road from liain Gut bridge leading to our coLilllcnity.

April 28, 1978 Tape 1583 MRS • MciSSAC : "At this point in time the road- is in a deplorable condition and nearly impassable. He are at present without taxi services the taxi owners are reluctant to put their taxis over a road that is in such a run-down condition. If this condition persists there will be no vehicles passing over it,including the school bus.

We have on a number of occasions contacted highway officials complaining of the road conditions but the only thing that has been done over the past few years was a little gravel put here and there which does not improve the driving conditions in anyway whatsoever." Mr.

Speaker, in supporting the petition I would like to say that this road to Mattis Point is a very short stretch of road.! believe from the ~~in Gut Bridge,as we will call it,to the end of the community is probably near a mile It is signed by ninety-ttm residents and I would say that this is every eligible voter that is in the community of Mattis Point. It is a very s~all co~unity. Now a few weeks ago a number of residents got out and barricaded the road and as a result some of them ended up in jail,but they were determined to get their point across.

DW - 1 I have to agree with them that the road is in very very bad shape. It is a road that was - the road in the community of Mattis Point is not that good either,but the stretch from the )·1ain Gut Bridge to where you enter the community is a causeway type· It is an area that was filled in, I do not know how many years ago,probably eight or ·nine years ago,and I believe that the problem is the culverts underneath that causetvay are not large enough to carry the water in the Spring of the year.

Every year they seem to have the same problem,that the water washes over the road and of course all the gravel is washed away and there is nothing but potholes and ruts.

April 23, 1978 Tape 1583 'DW - 2 }ffi.S. HciSSAC: So I would like to ask·the minister if he would have his officials take a look at it and see what the possibility is of having that road paved. I believe that if it were paved it would certainly save the department quite a few dollars because it is a steady cry for ballast or grading.

I h,ave never driven over that road in the past t-~~o years that I could say that it was in good condition and it seems as though no matter how hard the Department of Transportation in the area tries to upgrade it and keep it in good condition,it is just not possible because of the fact that the water comes in over it. It is not built up enough and I believe if it were built up, at least a

section of it if you cannot pave it alJ.,at least the

section that is causing the problem even could be built up and paved, I believe that it would mean dollars to the Department of Transporta- tion. So I will ask that the petition be placed on the table and referred to the Department of Transportation and Communications and hope that they t-!ill give the same consideration to this one as they are going to give to the ferry service for ~ell Island. Thank you. 'ffi.. SPI AKER: The hon. member for Raie ~ 7 erte - White Bay. )'F. T. l1IDEOT1'1': ~r. Speaker, I rise to snpport this very reasonable petition so ably presented by my colleague for St. George's (~frs.

Ycissac). It is not very after.. •,;hen you ":lave a petition presented to the !louse of Assembly that the real gist it,t3e real nature of lt is a suggestion to the ~nister and to his department how to save dollars. And as I understood the prayer of the petition that is exactly what this one is all about.!he ninety- two residents of Nat tis Point in my colleague's district arE' only talking about,I believe, approximately a mile of road that is almost sunk belm~ the level of the groun!i and so it is costly to keep that piece of road even opera table at the moment .So it is a very reasona't-le I r c

April 28, 1978 Tape 1583 ~~ • . 'T. !UDF.Ot'T: petition and 1 ~ould hope that the reasonable !-'inis ter of Transpor tation would dip down into his fUnds and try to find it. It would only be I suppose to do that a couple hundred thousand dollars 1 lf the minister is sear ching ~is pockets now so my colleague is goin g to get he r bit of pavement. But if the re is any pavement whatsoeve r going on out on the Hest Coast this year ,as I am sure there will,! would hope that the minister coul c DW - 3

April 28, 1978 Tape 15 84 EC - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: take this into consideration, find "the $100,000 or $200,000 necessary and do that piece of road to save some money in the long run for his department. HR. NOLAN: Show some compassion. AN RON. HEMBER: It is the short run that we are - !1R. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) The han. the member for Bonavista North. ~iR. CROSS: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 1,155 people of the communities of Dark Cove, Middle Brook, Gamba.

The prayer of the petition reads as follows: "We, the undersigned support the Concerned Citiz~ns Committee of Dark Cove, Middle Brook, Gamba, who prepared a brief and submitted it to the Hinister of Justice, the han. T. Alec Hickman, in July, 1977 • I.t is our understanding that consideration would be given to their request for an RCMP detachment in our municipality. The brief contains valid reasons for the request, and a recent tragic accident has led us to support strongly their efforts in obtaining the above mentioned service.

We feel that with such a spread out area, the detachment at Glovertown cannot possibly provide adequate control. We pray that the affixed signatures will cause your department to give this request a most favourable response." Mr. Speaker, in speaking in support of this petition, I would like to say that this is not a new idea, it is not a new request, because the first request dates back to 1969. But there are a few facts that I would like to state in support of this petition. ' i . l l

April 28, 1978 Tape 1584 EC - 2 MR. CROSS: Certainly it is proved that Gambo, Middle Brook and Dark Cove, these three communities which in fact are one community - one leading into another has the largest population in the communities now served; that is,they have a population of 3,000 people and they are the largest single unit of population that the RCMP detachment at Glovertown serves. True, the detachment at Glovertown serves a population of 12,8044 people, 7,404 of which are located in Bonavista Nor~h from Gambo to Parsons' Point.

The communities are situated on the Bonavista North Loop Road, the main road that leads to the Northern part of the district. It is a busy highway and with improved transportation, naturally it would become busier and carry more traffic as.time advances.

And certainly, that road leading off the Trans-Canada causes much speeding to take place and certainly speeding often leads to accidents that cost lives, and the people feel that the presence of a law enforcement detachment at Gambo would act as a deterrent to drivers and certainly cause them to be more cautious and certainly would cut down on the number of accidents that take place. I may say also that these communities are growing communities. The fact can be attested to when we drive through these communities and see the new homes that are being constructed and the improvements that are being made every day.

Certainly, I would like to state also as I speak in this petition that the inadequate police protection casts no reflection on the job that is being done by the detachment at Glovertown. Under the circumstances, I think the police in the area from Charlottetown to Parsons Point,including the island of St. Brendan's 7 are doing the best job possible with the I ~ I l I . ! I I ~ i

April 28, 1978 Tape 1584 EC - 3 NR. CROSS: number of office~s chat ~re serv·ing there. The short term solution to the problem possibly would be an increase in the number of police at the detachment at Glovertown and I feel tha.t this will be undertaken, but as I said, it would be a short-term solution because the problem is immediate. Bu~ to have an effective job of policing done i .n the area, a detachment of the RCMP set up at Gamba is, I think, the real solution to the problem. Mr. Speaker, I ask that this petition be laid on t .he table of the House and referred to the department to which ~t relates. MR. SPEA~ER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova. . · '

April 28, 1978 Tape ~o. 1585 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, again I rise to support this petition presented by the hon. member for Bonavista North on behalf of the residents of Gamba, Dark Cove and Little Brook, requesting an RCMP detachment be set up in that area, in Gamba. And, Mr. Speaker, the petition that the hon. member presented a couple of days ago is not unrelated to this one in a way because in that one the hon. member was requesting that there be sidewalks put in there and improvement to the shoulders of the road to cut down on the accidents there.

In view of the fact that over the past few years there have been several fatal accidents in that community,and that is related in no small way to the excessive speeding that takes place on that particular highway and the road leading from the Trans-Canada down through these communities. And the hon. member pointed out, as did I, that it is an atrocious road to have to drive through as you leave the Trans-Canada, being brought down to twenty-five miles per hour going right through" a community that is heavily populated with pedestrians on all sides and with no sidewalks and then with people speeding.

I mentioned in support of that petition a couple of days ago that it was a nighmare to drive through that community and it indeed is, people passing you and people from the area try to maintain the speed limits, generally it is people from outside, but that is not always the case. And so the presence of an RCMP detachment there I think would cut down on the speeding and you would only w~~t to compare it with Glovertown.

Glovertown is basically the same kind of situation, where you drive·right off the Trans-Canada onto narrow roads with no sidewalks and yet the town of Glovertown does not come close to the fatal accidents that take place in Gamba. And I think the reason for that is the presence ' I I l I t

April 28, 1978 Tape ~lo. 1585 HR. LUSH: of an RCMP detachment within the community, which naturally acts as some deterrent in preventing people from speeding. · And I think the petition also mentioned the rising vandalism in the Gamba area, and again, Mr. Speaker, there has been a tremendous rise in the vandalism in that area in the past three or four years and this also is another reason vhy the people, the residents, are requesting their own, if you will, detachment of the RC}P.

Now I certainly would not want to see anv reduction in the staff at Glovertown because that is needed; what we need is an additional staff in Gamba, their own RCMP detachment. I could not agree to a reduction in the staff in Glovertown, in that area, because these people have a tremendous area to police, a tremendous area. I do not know, if the hon. member were here he could probably help me,but I believe it goes down to Salvage, · Eastport, which is all a large area, St. Brendan's, which is an island which makes it very difficult for it because it takes a day or a day and a half 'to go to St.

Brendan's,and then I think they cover going the other way down as far as Indian Bay, I am not certain about that but I believe they go as far as Indian Bay because I think Wesleyville has its own RCMP detachment. So that is a rather large area for any one police force to have to truce care of, and as the han. member mentioned, there is no reflections at all on the present work of the ROll' force in Glovertm-m.

Tney are doing a tremendous task under the circumstances but the area is too.too large and I believe that the residents from Gamba have a very strong case for getting their own RC}lP detachment and I would hope that the appropriate level of government · would move quickly to see that these people have their request granted as quickly as possible. . ! . I

• ,::>ril 23 , 1978 Tape o. 1585 ~H - 3 MR . SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bay of I:slands . !1R. HOOD ROW: ~r . Speaker, 1 would like to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague from Bonavista North and so t~ell supported by my hon. friend from Terra Novlil . ln supporting the petition, Mr. Speaker, 1 would like t o say that there has been a general traffic i ncrease all over t he Province and this applies not only to the urban centres but to t:he rural areas as well. ln fact . , . . ~ l f

April 28, 1978 ·Tape 1586 PK - 1 Mr. Woodrow: I am thinking especially now, naturally when I get up to speak I think of the Bay of Islands district, but I have to think of the petition as such. And also, Mr. Speaker, certainly we say that vandalism, and I suppose to a 'certain extent crime is on the increase. Now I would ask the minister, and very likely he will be having something to say about the petition, to consider more highway patrols. I am not think, Mr. Speaker, especially about the Trans-Canada Highway·, but in the various communities throughout the Province.

It seems that young people are inclined to drive at a terrific pace. It is probably due to the age we are living in, and in almost every community children are at play, and it is a wonder there are not more tragedies than we have. We have witnessed a few in the past couple of months or so,as the minister knows~over in my district along the South shore of the Bay of Islands. Also, Mr. Speaker, I feel,anu probably I should give credit to the auxiliary police who are, I think, doing a tremendous job throughout the Province.

And I still think that we should, I do know whether this is possible or not, give more thought to having the Newfoundland Constabulary outside the City of St. John's. I think this would also be very helpful. I think, Mr. Speaker, it is a very important petition and I giv.e it my full support. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte follwed by the han. member for St. John's South. MR. WHITE: Ur. Speaker, I tJas going to say a few words on this, what I thought was something new, but the hen. gentleman for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) stole my thunder.

I was going to say now that the demands are coming in for RCMP detachments, additional RCMP detachments around this Province, we are going to get more of them during the months and weeks ahead particularly as new roads are developed and people find it easier to travel faster and so on over paved roads. I was going to suggest that the Minister of Justice

April 28, 1978 Tape 1586 PK - 2 Mr. White: give serious consideration now, Mr. Speaker, to having the Newfoundland Constabulary expanded throughout the rural and outside areas of this Province, outside of St. John's. The debate has not been raised for the last couple of years, and I think it is time that we raised this debate. There are 300 or 400 or 500 new jobs that would be created for Newfoundlanders outside the St. John's area if the Newfoundland Constabulary were extended. The Newfoundland Constabulary is a provincial police force, it is not a St. John's City police force.

And it is my feeling that it should be extended out, and what a better chance and a better time now than to set up the first outside detachment of the Newfoundland Constabulary at Gamba. MR. SPEAKER: by the hon. minister. DR. J. COLLINS: The hon. member for St. John's South, followed Mr. Speaker, in rising to support this petition I would like to make a comment along the'lines of the hon. the member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) and the hen. member for Lewisporte (Mr.

White), This seems to me a very sensible suggestion, and one that I was going to make myself if I had the opportunity to have arisen earlier. My understanding of the petition is that the citizens in that area are particularly concerned in terms of road safety. The RCMP are a very sophisicated force in dealing with many areas in the prevention of crime and similar matters 1 and one wonders if a detachment is necessary in that area at this time to allay the concerns of the citizens as they have expressed them.

And it would seem that rather than getting into an unduly elaborate mechanism which might take time, and excess expense, we could go some other route and supply some form of traffic control there, and it would seem that the Newfoundland Constabulary, some phase of that could be expanded to fulfill that role. It reminds that in the Conception Bay South area years ago there was a constable from the Newfoundland Constabulary who did an exemplary job. I can remember when I was in that area, in ·. r

April 28, 1978 Tape 1586 PK - 3 Dr. J. Collins: younger days, and I think his name, if I remember correctl y, was Constable Churchill, and be con trolled the whole shore almost up to Holyrood, I believe, from his oliltl home, if I remember correctly. Now these were simplier days,granted, but despite that here was a local person, in a local area, with local respect and he did a very fine job in terms of what was requ1red of him. - . . I ! :' ' i t-i' f i

April 28, 1978 Tape No. 1587 NH- 1 DR. J. COLLINS: And I think consideration should be given to that in circumstances such as we are dealing with now. ~!R. SPEAKER: I had indicated I would recognize the hon, minister next. I usually alternate but I do not think it vital here. The hon. Minister of Tourism, and then the hon. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir. MR.. ¥..0RGA;.'I : Yes, Mr. Speaker, a few words in support of the petition which is from a fairly large area of Bonavista Bay which I am quite fariliar with.

The petition indicates the need for some law enforcement in the area of !·!iddle Brook, Dark Cove, Gamba area and the fact the nearest detachment is approximately fourteen, fifteen miles away at Glovertown, and the fact that the area concerned in the petition is larger population-wise than the Glovertown area, there is a definite need for some law enforcement in that area, and in particular to and in connection with the highway regulations and laws. I agree somewhat with the comment made by the member for Lewisporte (Mr. F.

White) that I think it would be an appropriate time, the next year or so, to look at the possibility of expanding the Ne~rfoundland Constabulary, which, by the way, is doing · a tremendous job in the city of St. John's. I feel that the RC}P should be emphasizing their patrol work and law enforcement primarily on the Trans-Canada Highway when it comes to highway regulations and laws.

I know many times I have travelled the TCH over the past two or three years and found no patrols at all on the TCH,but you move off to a secondary highway and there are four or five patrol cars, but nobody on the TCH, 'What I would like to see, ~!r.

Speaker, in supporting the petition for some law enforcementlis consider~tion given to the possibility of establishing or expanding the Newfoundland ·Constabulary out to areas like the Gamba area, on the secondary highways, secondary roads and to patrol the municipal roads, local roads in these areas and to have the RCHP,primarily, when it comes to patrolling I~ighways, on t:~e TCH only.

April 25, 1978 Tape No, 1537 NH - 2 ~fR. NORGAN: So I support the petition and I sincerely hope we can either have the ~lewfoundland Constabulary out there, hopefully ' the Newfoundland Constabulary, if not at least some law enforcement stationed there over the next year or so. MR. SPEAKER: The han, member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SU!MONS: Mr. Speaker, just a brief word in support of the petition presented by my friend from Bonavista North (Mr. G. Cross). Here is another area where we need at some point a full scale debate in this House and that is about the RCMP role in this Province.

I am one of a growing number of people who feel the RCMP arrangement is not serving us at all very ~~ell in this Province. It was a great novelty,! SUP?Ose,in 1949 to have them in here 1rlth their pretty uniforms and that kind of thing, and it Has appealing to us as we became part of a new nation to have all the colour and trappings of the RCllP. ~ow what we need is some substance. And if you talk to a mayor or a leader in any small community in this Province, he or she will tell you that where they most need protection it is most absent.

If you want to get someone ticketed for going three miles above the speed limit you can depend on the ROll'. If you want to stop a bunch of hoodlums from racing through the main street of ?. town at three o'clock in the morning, dead drunk, at ninety-five miles an hour the RQ~ fellows will tell you quite frankly they are afraid to get involved in it, And they do not get involved in it. And I know of cases upon cases upon cases where the fellows are tearing up the tovm at a ridiculous ;1our in the I:!Orning, at many times the speed limit, and I can quote communities and quote

chapter and verse for you. I can quote cases uhere I personally called the RC~!P at two o'clock in the morning and reported an incident to them, and the answer I got basically is, ''Well, what can we do? What can we do?" Lives are endangered because of the lack of protection, lack of

April 28, 19i8 Tape ::o. 1587 .n1 - 3 !!R. snM>~s: police protection in some of the sllla.ller communities of the Province. To the specific point rai.sed in the petition, ~. Speaker, the need fo r an additional detachment at Gambo just like - perhaps the ~ister of Justice could indicate to me, the matter of locating addi tional detachments, is it embedded in the agreement or is it a matter of discretion for the RC!-lP people? Does the mi.l'lister kno~~ off hand? :".R.

HIC!Q!AN: It is a matter of negotiation be~Jeen the Provincial Department of Justice and the office of the Solicitor General of Canada because the Solicitor General of Canada,very fo r tunately for us, pays the full cost of establishing. !·!R. SI!~!ONS: Okay. I thank the minister.

I want to draw a parallel case and i t is in Ramea in my district where they are having a representation on this subje ct. •he case is not <lt all dissimilar. to the Gambo case which has been cited, dissimilar only in the sense chat there is greater isolation and therefore the ti~ in travelling to the various communities is multiplied when you compare it to areas served by roads. t !

April 28, 1978 Tape·l588 Pk - 1 Mr. Simmons: I have often wondered, Mr, Speaker-this might be helpful to the case made by my friend for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross)- I have often . wondered what kind of formula is used in determining the size of detachments, the number of officers on a detachment, _For example, in the community of Springdale there are five officers, and they serve a population area of about 10,000 people. In the community of Burgeo,which serves about 7,000 or 8,000 people,all of whom have to be reached by water,there is one officer, one officer for 8,000, five in Springdale for 10,000.

In the case of the Springdale example,all areas are accessible by road with the exception of two islands, Little Bay Island and Long Island. So I often wonder about the formula or the rationale behind locating these detachments, and deciding the size of them. I can support his case, and I would hope he would see fit to support mine as it applies to Ramea, and I believe Gambo and Ramea, Mr.

Speaker, are just two of the hundreds of reasons why the entire RCMP arrangement in this Province needs to be looked at in a very scrutinizing way to see if it serving us very well, more importantly to see if it can serve us a bit better than it is right n~. MR. SP~ (DR. COLLINS:) The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition as presented. We have made some reference to policing,of course, during the Justice estimates earlier in this session.

Again I repeat that the petitions we are getting on law and order administration in this Province indicates quite clearly a look of confidence in justice the way it is administered or not administered in this Province. Now it is easy enough, I suppose, to attempt to make the minister the scapegoat, but I mean we talking about a very, very important i thing here. You take, for example, in my own district, Mr. Speaker, I am constantly amazed by the number of break-ins, vandalism, firms being broken into, held up and all the rest, there are people being

April 28, 1978 Tape 1588 PK - 2 Mr. Nolan: victimized, and it has reached the point now that sometimes I hear of it a week or two later or a month later,

whereas just a few years ago if something like this happened it would have been a major news story. Now the frequency is such that it has become a provincial problem, a very serious one. People have lost confidence,! am afraid,in the men,sometimes, and women, who have been engaged by the Department of Justice to administer the legal affairs of the Province. Then you come to the point, is it the policemen's fault, the local Constabulary, the RCMP? I would have to say, no.

I have to say, no, because we have to look to see whether they are given the required personnel, the technology that is available, and most importantly, are we the citizens supporting the policemen in their work. All of us sometimes are prone, we all have to have a fall guy. It is always easy, I mean I have had my share of it in taking my best shots at the Minister of Justice from time to time, But it is a provincial responsibility in the broadest sense. It is easy,maybe politically correct to say get rid of the RCMP. AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR.

NOLAN: Maybe that will get you points· :- But I think the problem is much more important than that. What is needed in the worst kind of a way, and I pray to God the minister will one of those days sit down and rather than have a partisan argument in this House on the administration of justice, take a good hard look at setting up a good committee to see how the communities 1whether it is Gamba, whether it is Burgee, whether it is out in Lewisporte, or Ramea, or in Labrador or wherever it is.

We sometimes have committees set up consisting of alleged experts who will do everything but listen to the people who have the problems, whose homes are being broken into, whose children are being knocked down. Let me give you an example of what I am trying to say; a few weeks ago a four wheel drive that I drive was parked in a certain public place, in other words administered by public money, When my wife came out to drive the vehicle home the rear end had been removed. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh!

April 28, 1978- Tape 1588 Pk - 3 AN HON. MEMBER: You must be kidding. MR. NOLAN: I am not kidding, I will be quite happy to give the hon. minister the place and the whole works, all right. AN RON. MEMBER: Was it daylight? MR. NOLAN: Oh, yes! Oh, yes! Sure. So what happened was apparently -.j l c I

b.pril 23,1978 Tape No. 1589 Ali-1 :JR. NOLAN: sue had off~red to drive some ladies home and she found some difficulty in gettin~ the vehicle in gear, She managed to crawl home practically with the vehicle and someone then, a friencl, fortunately said, "Well maybe there is a piece of ice up under the darn thing.

Let us put it in a garage;• which they did to see if it would tnaw out overnight, And this was done but there was no piece of ice. ~ooarentlv those who have much greater mechanical ability than me say that you can do this very rapidly. ilow what is even more disturbing to me is when you have oeen in politics or in journalism,as I am sure my friend from Lewisporte (~lr .l·Jhite) will attest ,you i1ave cert&in sources of information and what is often times - I am sure the ministers knm.; this, sometimes it is most frustrating. Let me just give you a sequel, if I may, :.Ir. Speaker.

Knowing that the darn thing had been stolen from beneath the t.;agon, the rear end, a week later I heard from another source that I have,quite by accident,that there had been an order in in a certa~ place for this piece of automotive equi?ment. I also understz.nd th~t it was installed in a well-knowa and prominent acto- motive center and I also know the area of the Province who ordered it but. I cannot prove tl'rat ti1e piece of e~uipment was mine. I ai!I not looidng for public sy'!ilpathy or anyti1ing like that, I am only indicating ti1at close to i1ome - and '.Je have all had experiences.

I submit that there is no member of this House who has not been victimized,or his relatives A.J.'I HON l!EHBER: - r.1y car. .lR. ::-iOLAJ.{: Your car, Hell that is what I mean, 5o if therefore, you know, ue are not a ;;elect group~ So I hope ti1at the minist er ~v ill take a i1ard look at :·:hat is going on. I suggest that the ad:uinistration of justice in terms of vandalism and so on is out of na~d coupletely.And I ac not go~ng to stand here and blame the minister.

What I am doin6 is asking the :ninister in the n=e of Goc:! please. please, please let us get together in a non-partisan way and look at the system of policing in this Province as it applies to traffic)

April 2o,l97ii ~1R. NOLA:-!: ~1R. SPEAKER: Tape No. 1589 AH-2 as it applies to vandalism and so on. Order, please! I have to remind the hon. member that his five minutes has elapsed. HR. NO!..,&'/: ~. SPEAKER: · ~m.. HIC:K:L:\..'1: HR. SPEAKER: I thank the hon. Speaker. Presenting reports. If I may have one word on this. liinister of Justice. ~IR. l:iiCKHA.'i: I intended simply to refer to my very excellent meeting with }Iayor Pritchett and her council earlier this 1vee~:. and the hon. the member for Banavista North (Mr.

Cross), but this has gotten into comments concerning the police force that I have an obligation to respond to. Number one,I am not prepared to get myself in a position where I am arguing the Royal Canadian liounted Police vis-a-vis the Newfoundland Constabulary, They are both very excellent police forces. On a provincial basis and a Canadian basis the Ne1~oundland Constabulary has a first class reputation and deservedly so.

It is now ~etting for the first t~e in its 125 year history or more the k:i.:J.d of support that,in my opinion,it should have been getting starting in the thirties from the government and it is now getting it. The :iillyal Canadian Police is 1~it:1 justification ra::!.ked as t !1e ~1or l d' s Oe~t police f o rce ~~1 d it is ilo i: a ~ t! ;;po n s i :,;lG: pu~ition to try &<~ downgra~e "~ci~ efforts.

In this Province today ~e have - I vish I l~d t.1e statistics in front of ;~e nm>,but it is eiti1er; I·Tell it is L;et!:.e.:­ not to quo t2 t h.=w - o.1t we i1ave a very, very l.ar;;e il\Lllber of ~C~ :P officers, !au.:ll lar.;i.:.r than we have ever had in our history .. And ·,.;hilst: we J.lave a certa.iu number unC.er the proviucia: con~ract one 111usc not ov e; ~look tha:: there are 200 o::- 3'J J ~C-· iP uf£icers -~~~ho c.re io. ~1ere and tiley Jo not cost us anything .:r.nd ti1ey are availa!Jle .&:or. law enforceQe:lt .. of t~e Crimin;;l Code "hen we re:quite thelil.

The .:lru;;; squad is outside the provincial contract as we ho.ve IlO responsii:lility L1 n.a::cotics. The fraud squad. ., r

pril 25 ,1973 !ape :<o. 1539 The comtlercial frauu s quad to a lar~;e extent is outside the provincial cor:t:r<:.ct alt:hou&' til<!re are cert:ai.• c:W.rges . T~e formula,~hich is a rat~er complicated ooe,is a ver; attractive .Jne , the financial forcula for this Province. I ru:t apprehensive that the formula is starting to be chang ed because of ext r eme political pressures on ~~e ~ove~~ent of c~.oda by the provinces of Quebec and Ontar~o who do not avail of the services of the R~.

The formula right now is a~out fifty-fifty,~ith t ' e government of Canada paying t he copital account for detachli:Je."l.t quarters arui t hat sort of t ing. ! would not be prepa red to see the ,·ewfoundland Constabulary .;ec: up ir. any ;>art of this Province unless we were in 3 position to give them the same kind of quarters and tile same kind of equipcent as the

April 28, 1978, Tape 1590, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: R.C.M.P.have and that will be a very substantial cost item. In the meantime, we are pressing on with the construction of the first building, the first headquarters for the Newfoundland Constabulary in their history. In the City of St. John's our per capita population of police still compares favourabl~ if not better, than any other Canadian city. With respect to - and people have to realize, I sympathize with the problem of the hon. member for Conception Bay South (Mr.

Nolan) but I am sure he will agree that if we had had three times as many members in the Newfoundland Constabulary in St. John's on that particular afternoon or night when his wife's vehicle was vandalized, it would still have occurred. What we have to look at, Mr. Speaker, is this: Number one, in the Department of Justice, and I am very proud of the professional staff we have right now, we have a prosecutorial staff of about ten or twelve which is an increase from two in five years.

We have the strongest provincial bench we have ever had, again an increase of eighteen to thirty-one, I think it is, in that period. The Crown has no control over sentencing, none, nor should it. The Crown should never have greater rights than the accused. With respect to the particular petition here, last year Chief-Superintendent Farr and I went to Glovertown and met with the council. We agreed to increase the surveillance, and this was done very dramatically during the past few months. Mayor Pritchett was very strong in her praise for the work that is being done by the R.C.M.P. in the Gamba area.

April 28, 1978, Tape 1590, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: But the main thrust,as I interpret it,is that they would like a police presence from a deterrent point of view in their municipal area. They realize that any detachment now1 because of working agreements,must be a minimum of a three man detachment, that this will still not prevent someone racing through the town in a car under the influence of liquor, but it is the presence they are emphasizing . . I will give you a couple of statistics as to what happens, to show you some of the effectiveness of the law enforcement in the Gambo area. MR. SPEAKER(Collins): MR.

HICKMAN: there has been an excellent - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HICKMAN: one minute. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : SOME HON. MEMBERS : Order, please! I am sorry. I wish I could give this because By leave. May I by leave? And I have By leave? By leave. MR. HICKMAN: In 1975, and this is a thing that really counts, in 1975 - I will just take impaired driving - there were twelve impaired driving cases and all twelve were cleared; that means disposed of by the courts. The next year there were six and six. In the first half of 1977, zilch! That is the kind of law enforcement that is becoming so effective in this Province.

And if you look at just one more item, break and entry, in 1976,thirty-three, twenty-three cleared; 1977, eight, five cleared. And remember 1 the police surveillance was increased and there are three members of the Glovertown detachment who reside - although they are in the Glovertown detachment - who reside in the community of Gambo, as I

April 28, 1978, Tape l590, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: recall it, Mr. Speaker. So what I have undertaken with Mayor Pritchett is this, that this new thrust of the council, the new approach I am prepared to - and we only submit statistics and the population count, the area to be served to the office of the Solicitor General. I can make, as I have done on two occasions in the past year, a fairly firm directive but I have to be in a position to justify - why I say I, my officials - to the officials and the Solicitor of Canada that indeed this is necessary, otherwise they will not pay for it.

But we are moving in the right direction 1 I am quite certain, in this case. MR. SPEAKER(Collins): Further petitions. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I vii 11 on tomorrow ask leave to mov~ the House into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions in relation to the granting of Supplementary Supply to Her Majesty for the financial year ending the 31st. day of March,one thousand nine hundred and seventy-eight. How does that grab you? MR. DOODY: That is not bad. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Further Notices of Motion. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER(Collins) : The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the hon. the Minister of Justice, the Government House Leader. I wonder first of all, Mr. Speaker, if he could r f I !

April 28, 1978 Tape 1591 IB-1 HR. SIMMONS: indicate to the llouse when he expects to receive a report on the report of the Fire Commissioner, I would expect, on the fire at Elizabeth Towers a couple of mornings ago? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. HR. HICKMAN: There has already been a preliminary, a verbal report received from the Fire Commissioner. The procedure that is followed in most fires, certainly any. fires involving large buildings or where a lot of people reside,is t~at if it is in St.

John's the Fire Commissioner and the police conduct au investigation and eventually the two reports come in to the Deputy Minister of Justice. The Fire Commissioner is primarily concerned with safety and the other investigative body with cause. If it is outside,it is by the RCMP. So to set ths record straight there is nothing unusual at all 9 but it is standard practice for the police to be investigating this particular fire. The Fire Commissioner yesterday met with the St. John's Housing Corporation and reviewed with them fire safety procedures in Elizabeth Towers.

Firstly I am told-and I do not have a written report and I have to protect myself in this sense by saying it is being related to me second hand because the Fire Commissioner, I gather the man has been really going for the last forty-eight hours because we seem to have had more than our fair share of fires in the St. John's Area • But what has been transmitted to me is that, in fact only as late as a few minutes ago, that the St. John's Housing Corporation at the time they built the Elizabeth Towers ' complied with all of the regulations and all of the : l requirements of the Fire Commissioner at that time.

Fire Commissioner Cardoulis has directed,if direct is the word, he certainly has the

April 28, 1978 Tape 1591 IB-2 HR. HICKHAN: authority to direct if it is necessary 1 the St. John's Housing Corporation to implement some remedial action by adding additional fire protective measures or procedures forthwith. I eannot advise the House of the nature of that because that has not yet been reported to me. But he has moved very swiftly indeed in this. I will have a full report. I am not sure if what the han. member is talking about is a report on the cause of the fire. HR. SIMMONS: The cause. HR.

HICKI!AN: I am more concerned about a report to ensure that there are very adequate fire protective procedures and equipment in that building. That is my number one cause for many, many reasons, as it is the same reason as the han. member for Port de Grave (Mr. Dawe). But the matter is being dealt with very quickly indeed and v~ry effectively. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary to the original question. HR. S IM}iONS: We are not unconcerned about the safety issue. We realize that was in motion as a matter of course. The Fire Commissioner comes in routinely.

The question of cause, I am not sure the minister addressed himself to. Is he in a position at the ~oment to_ I gather he is not in a position to indicate what the cause is,that that report is not complete. So I will put another supplementary to the minister, another question to the minister, Mr. Speaker. On the subject of the executive assistant,or maybe the former executive assistant as the case may be,to the Minister of Industrial Development, I!r. Terrence White, can the Minister of Justice now indicate to us whether Mr. White's contract -- I [ ! I • I . f l ' r r

April 27, 1978 Tape 1591 IB-3 HR. SH!HONS: with the government has been terminated and if so, in what way was he fired. Did he voluntarily submit a resignat~on? MR. BIC!GIA~I: No, I cannot, Mr. Speaker. That questi on has co be directed to my colleague, the Xinister of I~dustrial Development. He certainly would not consult me on that. I just have no idea. HR. SU!MONS: Could the minister indicate where the Minis ter of Industrial Deve lopment is? ~ilL HI CIGiAN: No, I cannot. ~IR. snmoNs: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. The gentleman *e are talking about, Mr .

White, was he re in the House on the night the affidavits and the letter from Kr. White were tabled, or he was in the building a_t the time. · I saw him an hour or so after the d ocuments were tabled. I gather that he bas no t been around since. He might have left indeed the immediate environment of S t. John's within a few hours. A question for the Minister of Justice, Mr. Speaker. Did the minister in any ~ay procrastinate, did he delay • i ! t " ;

April 28 , 1 978 Tape :•o. 15 92 JM- 1 MR. SIMMONS: in any way the setting up of the police investigation until such time as Mr. Wl1ite had left the Province~ MR. HICIOlA~: l~r. Speaker, I find that question offensive. I will not an~.-er it • . I direct that the Chair ask, demand, instruct that that question be ~·lithdrawn forthwith and then we will take the rest of the steps that are necessary. HR. SPEAKER: I would rule that there ;.ras an imputation there towar~ the hon. gentleman to my left of at least dereliction of duty and possibly more serious matters. I would ask the hon. gentleman to Hithdraw it. MR.

SIMHONS: l1r. Speaker, certainly I withdraw any imputation of moti~es. Perhaps I can rephrase the question. MR. HICia!AN: Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to acceot that. That i~ nn~ a >li thdra".val. As I interpret Your Honour 1 s directions - ~lR. SIMMONS: I said I withdraw any indication of motives. Mr. Speaker. unless the minister is standing on a point of order I have.the floor. MR. HICIO".A..'{: l>lR. SPEAKER: MR . HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. an a point of order.

I interpret the ruling from the Chair that the han. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir is to give an unqualified retraction and that was not one. }lR. SPEAKER: I think the situation here is to a certain extent a linguistic one.

The hon. gentleman upon the requirement of the Chair that the question be withdrawn did withdraw it,and I think where the linguistic factor comes up and then said, "I ,,-ill rephrase the question." The original question having been out of order and asked to be wi th dra,m, I can see the point of the rephrasing. 1Tnat I would ask the han. gentleman to do is to ask a question without reference to the previous one withdrawn. Just to ask a question without reference to t he previous one . ~1R. SI~ON S: Mr.

Speaker, I had not intended to be appearing to defy your request. \fuat I wanted to do was withdraw the imputation and then seek certain information that obviously I had not conveyed very successfully in the first question. Ny concern really,and I ;vill put

April 28, 1978 Tape No. 1592 Jm - 2 MR. SH!l·IONS: a question to the minister in this fashion. Is the minister satisfied that the setting up of the police investigation was done as expeditiously as possible and if it w·as not, for what reason was it not done as expeditiously as possible? MR. HICIQ'.AN: Mr. Speaker, not only was the investigation set up as expeditiously as possible but I would suspect that we established a record for the quick setting up of an investigation of this nature. I cannot recall one since I have been Attorney General that was set up so quickly and so broad in its scope.

I repeat ~'lat,number one - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). ~ffi.. HICIO!AN: That kind of gratuitous col!llllent I am sure we can do without. Mr. Speaker, let me repeat,so that there can be no misunderstanding in this House,that there was an alleged affidavit and another alleged or purported document tabled in this House sometime between nine and ten o'clock on Tuesday. The House adjourned at eleyen and at nine o'clock this matter was in the hanc.s of the Crown's law officers with instructions to review it and advise immediately. They met with the RCMP that day, all day,and nothing could be faster than that.

To try and even insinuate that this gentleman l•'hite, you knowlthat I had to say, 'Now who is going to tonight when they hear that, going to do something, 1 is certainly beyond the realm of possibility or even fiction or foolhardiness and falls into the category of half-wittedness. MR. Sll1NONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. :• NR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, one o~'ler supplementary on this subject for me at least. I know my colleagues have some as well.

The Minister of Justice,perhaps :1e could indicate to the House whether an understanding I had yesterday is correct,namEly that the ~~nister of Industrial Development was not informed on the night the documents were tabled he was not informed by any of his colleagues that that was the case. I know the Hinister of Justice cannot vouch for the Minister e>f Industrial Development

April 28, 1978 Tape 1593 IB-1 _I;IR. SIMMONS : in terms of what time he became aware of it. But what I am . asking the Minister of Justice is whether he or to his knowledge any of his colleagues undertook to inform their colleague, the Minister of Industrial Development of the fact of the tabling of these documents on Tuesday night. UR. SPEAKER: The han. Uinister of Justice. MR. HICKUAN: Hr. Speaker, let me say,first of all,I did not speak to nor communicate with my colleague, the Uinister of Industrial Development 9 until I returned from Stephenville yesterday.

And I heard him say,as every han. member did yesterday in this House,that he was not aware of these charges having been hurled at him in the House until after the fire occurred, you know,the following day. But I am not aware of anyone communicating with him and I can assure this House that I did not. MR. SPEAKER: I think the han. gentleman stated that would be his last supplementary. Are han. members now standing on supplementaries? A supplementary, the han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, in the letter written by one Terrence White which was tabled the other night, he made some references to T.V. sets from Alec \.J'alsh to the Minister of Industrial Development and some talk about work to Walsh without tendering. I was wondering if the Minister of Justice could indicate the status of the police report regarding these matters at the present time? MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. HICKMAN: I do not understand the question. MR. SU!NONS: My supplementary will clarify it.

April 28, 1978 Tape 1593 IB-2 }!R . HICIU!AN: Okay. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: The document which the minister likes to call ~n ~lleged affidavii is most assuredly his alleged affidavit, Mr.Speaker, alleged item number twenty-eight says, "When Corporal Eaton and Inspector Murphy attended at my home on August 18, 1977 they told me that they were not there to ask me further questions as they had told me but rather to execute a warrant, etc. etc. There was a search done apparently of Mr. Davidson's home at that point. Obviously there was an ongoing police investigation.

Can the Minister of Justice indicate if his department has any report from that investigation or if any action hasflowed from it or if any charges have been laid? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. RIC !UlAN: I am not aware of any report because I think that investigation was an investigation not initiated in this Province - HR. SII1HONS: Not initiated? MR. HICKlfAN: o~ taking place in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Carbonear followed by the hon. member for Conception Bay ~outh and Terra Nova. MR. R. ~100RES: I would like to direct a question, Mr. Speaker, to the han. the Premier.

Memorial University students are now ending their Winter semester and will he entering the labour market looking for Summer employment. In addition to the federal initiative in this regard, job creation for students, does the Premier or his government have any plans to initiate any job creation this Summer for our students. }!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. I L t

April 28, 1978 Tape 1593 IB-3 ~REMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, it is not just the students unfortunately who are une~ployed for the Summer. It is also the students who are graduating,which is of major concern to both levels of govenment,I would suggest,and to students themselves. I think it is well known that we are working wherever possible with the federal government to have make work programmes for the Summer students who are on vacation during the Summer.

And also to try to develop an economy that will allow the graduates when they are on a much more serious job seeking effort to have the opportunity to take meaningful jobs in the future. With the unemployment situation in this Province,and certainly with it like it is in Canada, it is fairly obvious that that is not an easy solution. But I know that all levels of government are doing everything possible to try tc alleviate it. MR. SPE.AKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for Carbonear. MR. R.

MOORES: I think I am well aware as most bon. members are in the House that the Premier and his government intends to create 40,000 jobs within the next five years. But I would like the Premier to be more specific when he says that he is working along with the federal initiative in the Summer employment job creation for students. Would you please be more specific and inform the House what exactly you are doing? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, as far as the provincial_ government is concerned-the other one would be the subject of a joint announcement - as far as the provincial government is concerned we have a programme this year to employ Summer students in virtually every government department.

April 28, 1978 Tape 1594 PK - 1 Premier Moores: We have particular~ emphasis on the departments such as Tourism, with their parks wildlife, and the emphasis is on Summer students, equally for guides and so on. I do not know what the grand total is, but I think there would be in excess of, I do not know, but I would say in excess of 500 that would be employed in the various government departments. MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated that I would recognize the hon. gentleman for Conception Bay South next. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice, if I can capture his attention. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister would be good enough to confirm- I understand that he or his officials met with the Newfoundland Constabulary or their executive yesterday on certain negotiations that are being carried out. What I would like to ask the minister is this, is he aware that one of his officials indicated to the executive or a member of the executive that they were not to go to the press to discuss the matterS being discussed and negotiated• and that if they did that action would be taken against them? MR. R. MOORES: Go ;way! MR. NOLAN: Would the minister wish to confirm or deny that? MR. R.

MOORES: Dr. Goebbels. AN HON. MEMBER: Go on! MR. HICKMAN: As confirmed and I cannot deny it. There is a labour management group in my department who meet with representatives of the Newfoundland Constabulary periodically, and it has been working very well. They do not report to me. MR. NOLAN: Who do they report to? MR. HICKMAN: They do not report to me on every meeting, it is only if there is some problem arises out of it.

There is a provision in, I think, it is in the Collective Agreement which says that any statements to the press from the Newfoundland Constabulary, I think, goes through the Chief of Police or the President of the Brotherhood with the permission of the Chief of Police. That has been in the f '

April 28, 1978 Tape 1594 Pk - 2 Mr. Hiclailan: Collective Agreement, I believe, since the first agreement was signed. But as to what transpired in a particular meeting, I am afraid I cannot help the House on that, Mr. Speaker, may I while I am on my feet, that is why I asked the han. member for Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) to come over, but I can do it, I think, under this heading, I want to be sure that the House understands the answer I gave the han. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) on this affidavit.

I repeat, there has been no, as I said, investigation initiated in this Province, nor is there an investigation being carried on before this under the auspices of the Attorney General's Department. But I believe some RCMP have been doing work in connection with their outside initiated investigation in the Province of Newfoundland, but they would not report to my department on that. But I did not want anyone to feel that I was misleading the House in to saying that nobody is doing any work on it, because I have learned now, and I guess I knew before because it was in the press that there was some work going on.

MR. NOLAN A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOALN: Again I want to get back to the point of, I understand that a meeting was held, I understand that the members of the executive or a member of the executive was told flat out, 'Donat go to the press or you are in trouble.' Now the next question to the minister is this, Were this group told by a senior official of the minister's department,' 'Do you attempt to contact the minister, You must go through the Chief of Police.' I am talking about possibly . the President of the Union.

I mean this is a threat, and I mean - if the minister does not know will he find out for us? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. .. r

April 28, 1978 Tape 1594 PK ~ 3 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman should not get so excited over that. MR. NOLAN: I see! MR.

HICKMAN: What I am concerned about though,if what the hon. gentleman is saying is true,that it means, what he is saying, is that two groups of employees in my department,namely, members of the Newfoundland Constabulary and officials of my department,have confidential,interdepartmental meetings that become public knowledge~ And I frankly admit that that distrubs me, because if there is one department of the Government of Newfoundland where confidentiality has to be the order of the day, bar none, and if there is one division of that department where it is even moreso,it is the Newfoundland Constabulary.

And what the hon. gentleman is saying to me now indicates that some confidentiality has been broke~, - and I will look into that because no Department of Justice can function, nor would any citizen in Newfoundland agree that it could function. under these circumstances. But to answer the question,it has been Standing Orders for years that any time a member of the Newfoundland Constabulary wants to meet the minister, the meeting is arranged through the Chief of Police. AN RON. MEMBER: Why? !: I MR. HICKMAN: Because that is a Standing Order. And it is the same thing - nothing wrong with it, you know.

And the police agree with that approach. MR. NOLAN: Does that mean if the Chief of Police goes berserk tomorrow that the executive - MR. HICK}f.A.liT: Do not be so silly! Do not be so silly! MR. NOLAN: MR. HICKMAN: Do not be so silly! You know, you are only downgrading the Newfoundland Constabulary when you make these kinds of comments. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HICK}f.AN: We have a first-class Chief of -

April 28, 1978 Tape No. 1595 JM- 1 MR. HICKMAN: Police. We have a first-class assistant Chief of Police and we have a first-class deputy assistant and we have a first-class force of officers and men in the Newfoundland Constabulary and they like some of the rules that are there and they like that rule and t.'lat is the way that it happens. Is the hon. gentleman going to suggest that every_ time that a member of the Newfoundland Constabulary has something arising out of the course of his employment that he should simply walk into the minister's office? How could you have a Cnief of Police?

He would be so undermined - MR. NOLAN: How about their president? (Inaudible). The Chief of Police of the Newfoundland Constabulary has to know everything that is going on in his force and there is only one way he can know it and that is if they want a meeting they go through him. I invite him - I would not think of : Hy practice is that if the Newfoundland Constabulary or the executive of the Brotherhood want to come to see me-and they will admit that I am the easiest person in Newfoundland to see. They have never asked yet to see me that they have not been able to see.

I think that the results of my meetings '>lith the Newfoundland Constabulary have been excellent. I think that because of these meetings we now have a force that for the first time in their career are getting a half decent salary. They are getting good headquarters. They are getting good training and they have the respect of pretty well everybody in this Province. SOl1E liON. }lEMBERS : Hear: Hear! :.!R. NOLAN: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. NR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I uill recognize the han. gentleman for a final supplementary.

I will point out that the Question Period-if hon. gentlemen will please take their seats. MR. NOLA\'<: Mr. Speaker, I will make one - HR. SPEAKER: All hon. gentlemen please take their seats. I will point out that the Question Period is not a period in which there should be debate,nor should there be interjections while a member is asking a I I I -.I .I I I I I ' I I ,. I I I~

April 28, 1978 Tape No. 1595 JH- 2 MR. SPEAKER: question or while a member is answering a question. The han. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: There is a supplementary, ~!r. Speaker. I beg the Minister of Justice to bring to this House confirmation or denial of what I have said. liere officials of the Newfoundland Constabulary threatened by his officials yesterday? Yes or no. If he does not know will he be good enough to please find out and let us know,otherwise we will use our own methods to find out~ l-Ie will not get the information here apparently. MR.

HICKMAN: I certainly 1~ill not accede to that threat nor will any member of the Newfoundland Constabulary. But I can say right now categorically,without even asking,that there was no threat. MR. NOLlu'l: No threat. All right. MR. SPEA.l(ER: I have indicated I will recognize the han. member for Terra Nova next>and follot{ing hi•n the hen. gent;lemiim for Fogo, Lewisporte, Baie Verte~ite Bay,, and Burgee- Bay d' ~spoir time permitting. HR. LUSH: A. question to the llinister of Labour and Manpower, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the minister is in a position to give han. members and the people of this province.any significant information, any new developments with respect to the two major strikes in the Province~namely,the Labrador City strike and the one at Baie Verte? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: Xr. Speaker, a little information and it is the situation at Labrador City that two of the major items that I suggested for impeding a collective agreement have been settled by the negotiating committee forever in the House. W11en I say settled at that it still has to be ratified by the membership.

They are now discussing, starting yesterday,I believe, the wage package. They have stayed at the table, as I requested,and they will stay at the table until such time as they can or cannot come up with a settlement. The situation of course is compounded by the situation at Seven Islands beca