ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. Jame• Welding Speeker VOL. XXXI No. 378 - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 31 MA RCH, 1983. Printed by the Office of Ille 0_,s PrmhK. Province ol Mtlllilobll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elij ah HEMPHIL L, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Ll oyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECU YER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry· T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West El lice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Ru ssell St Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnks ter Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 31 March, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee come to order. We certainly want to facilitate the proceedings of the Committee, so we will start early. We are now on Item 3.(d)( 1) . The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Minister had some information. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I imagine the Honourable Member for Pembina is referring to some informatio n th at was reque sted this mo rning, particularly , I guess, with regard to Central Vehicle Branch. Is that what the honourable member was referring to? All of it, I believe, has not arrived and we are attempting to get it all together at this time. I wonder whether the mem ber would care to continue until such time as we are able to provide it. I stated this morning that we would endeavour to have it by 2:00 this afternoon.

There are still some parts of it that are not complete and I would like to have all of the information before we provide it to the mem bers. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: That's all right, even if we don't get it today and we happen to finish the Estima tes today, the Minister will provide that by letter to us at any rate, I would take it. Also, he might be able to provide by letter to myself on the question of the television sets, etc. Any of the questions that aren't answered before his Estimates are completed, he can reply by letter. That's acceptable practice, it's been done before.

HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I haven't been able to determine that we would not be able to provide any information in a fairly short period of time except for the use of vehicles by MLAs on government bus iness on behalf of Ministers. That is something that requires going back to every departme nt and would be some time in coming. It would seem to me that that would be appropriate for an Order for Return and if the honourable member, for that piece informati on, would want to ask for an Order for Return, it seems to me that would be appropriate.

The rest of the information we can gather from within our department and we may even have it very shortly this afternoon. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I find that somewhat passing strange that the Minister has agreed to provide the informati on, so I think it would be compl etely unnecessary to file an Order for Return when the Minister has already agreed to provide the information. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just think it would be more appropriate for that part.

I did not say that I would provide all of the information, I said I would attempt to get all the information that I could for the honourable mem bers for this afternoon. All I'm saying is th at pie ce of inf ormatio n is partic ularly ti me­ consuming and if the honourable members want to ask for that kind of information, as they have with the SAs and EAs for uses of government vehicles and so and it involves all of the other departments in going back for a lot of time-consuming work, I think that they should register that in the House for an Order for Return. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I find that even stranger because the Minister has agreed, or at least before we rose at lunch hour had agreed to provide the information. We're not in any rush to receive it this afternoon. If it takes him two weeks, three weeks, whatever time it takes him to provide it, I'm quite willing to wait and I would hope that he would provide us with the information. HON. J. PLOHMAN: As I said, Mr. Chairman, we will have as much information available as soon as possible and we will get that to the honourable members. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)( 1) -p ass; 3.(d)( 2) - the Member for Virden.

MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I believe it was about a year ago in this particular department, there was some controversy regarding the activities of a certain mem ber of the Civil Servic e who worke d in this department, who was subsequently reassigned to a different position, I believe, pending the outcome of a court case. Can the Minister indicate whether that court case has proceeded and, if so, what the results were? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I under stand that the court proceedings have been held and a decision will be handed down in about mid-April on that. MR. H.

GRAHAM: At the present that member of the Civil Service is still working for the Department of Government Services, still working in the Supply and Services Branch. Is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, the. individual has been reassigned to other duties within the branch. MR. H. GRAHAM: That is all I wanted to ask on that. Seeing as how it's before the courts it's highly improper for us to deal with any aspects of that at this time. 1288

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Agreed, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)(2) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, dealing with the Purchasing Bureau of the government, for quite some time I think there are members on this side of the House, and probably members on the other side of the House, who obviously at some time or another have wanted to ask some questions about the purchasing policy of the government.

Would the Minister be kind enough to provide us with some detail of how this government goes about the process of purchasing goods and services for the use of all of the Government of Manitoba? I think it would be beneficial to all of us if we could understand exactly how the Purchasing Bureau works. Could the Minister give us a short resume of how that works? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, when requests for materials and goods and services come from other departments they go to the Purchasing Branch of the Department of Government Services, which assists in putting together tenders for the goods th at are requested from the ind ividual departments. These are co mp iled in conj un ction with the de partme ntal personnel and the Purchasing Branch people and these are then sent out for tender, under normal conditions, over a certain amount. There are various details that can be given as to when tendering is done and when it is not done in terms of the amounts. I can get those figures.

I believe everything is tendered - under $25,000, the figures may be obtained by soliciting figures or bids from individual suppliers by phone or by letter. Above that, it is done by the regular tendering process, where this is sent out - depending where the goods are req ui red - tenders are sent out to supp liers and advertised as well, so that they're aware that certain goods and services are required. They can then put a bid on for those services. These are, after a certain time, evaluated in conjunction with the department that requires those services or goods.

Usually, it's been a longstanding practice, the lowest bid is accepted. We are certainly looking at this time, and we have been for some time, evaluating tenders on the basis of the lowest tender . However, under certain circums tances, other than the lowest tender may be accepted. Primarily when an out-of-province bid is marginally lower than an in-province bid, and at that time, on occasion, the bid may be awarded to the in­ province bid. That is some general information. If the honourable member would like to get into more specific details, we can follow that up. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

For the time being, I would like to confine myself to the activities of the Purchasing Department. In the under $25,000, wher e it is not necessary for, acc ording to our regulations or your general directions that you have outlined, where the province invitel? bids without public tender, could the Minister indic ate to us who receives the - shall we call it - the preferential phone call and the opportunity to place a bid, and who is that does not receive it? Are there any gu idelines in that respect? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I should advise that this is incorrectly stated that phones were used for this purpose as well. This is not used. They are presented; the quo tations are received. What happens is that the information is sent out to suppliers who are registered on our lists, who have indicated an interest previously or have successfully bid in the past, and they are sent copies of the requirements and then they can submit a bid, a quotation. MR. H. GRAHAM: How does a person become registered then to be eligible to receive or to be invited to bid on these smaller items? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, any supplier can ind icate tha t he is in terested in rec eiving information. We have had requests from individual MLAs from time to time and other people who have indicated to me that they have a constituent who is interested on bidding on certain kinds of commodities that are supplied by the government, and then I refer that to the department for inclusion on a list of suppliers who would receive information. MR. H.

GRAHAM: I would ask the Minister if any consideration has been given to the use of the Trade Journal and the government automatically sending out invitations to all those who are registered in that particular line in the Trade Journal in Manitoba. Has the government ever attempted to do anything of that nature? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we do certainly try to use every means at our disposal to provide the information. As a matter of fact, I feel that we can improve it.

It is certainly absolutely necessary that as much information gets out to suppliers, particularly in the rural areas, where they may not necessarily be aware of all of the opportunities that might be present for government supplying and we use various methods. I am not certain that the Trade Journal is used for that, but I am advised that we do attempt to get information out to any suppliers who have ind icated any interest at all and ask them sometimes whether they are interested in bidding in future contracts, if they are going to show any interest.

They'll indi cate that they have no future interest or that they do have interest. I would like to see us maintain a comprehensive and up-to-date list of all suppliers so that they would be notified in a particular area, particularly for localized contracts. If there is a particular supply that's needed in one community or one area of the province, then I would like to see that all suppliers in that area are notified that is going to take place and are sent out information so that they could bid on it.

We also get information from Economic Development on new busi nesses and so on that are developing and may have the capacity to supply us with certain goods or services. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated earlier that from time to time he does get information from MLAs who request specific people to be placed on that list. I would suggest that leaves quite an onerous burden on the MLA to provide them with the list of all 1289

Thurs day, 31 March, 1983 ������������������� · the people that are interested in bidding on government contracts. I find that is something that I really wouldn't want to see happen because an MLA could be quite conscientious in his work and still overlook in his constituency someone who would be interested in bidding in a particular field. So I would hope that the Minister doesn't rely too much on that particular field to provide him with a list of suppliers. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I gave that as an example, that is, where we add to the list.

When they are not on the list and a particular MLA has requested - and I use that as an example only - of course that is not the only source, it is not even close to the only source of making a list and I'm not suggesting it is the job of the MLA to do that. It's an example of what I said, where we respond to requests from individual MLAs to make sure that an individual supplier in their constituency is listed if they are not listed already.

The list has been built up over the years and it is constantly being added to and deletions made when busi nesses are no longer in busi ness or no longer supplying a particular item, and so on. This has been built up over a num ber of years and I am advised that it is quite a comprehensive list. I am certain that it is not fully comprehensive at all times so there is room, as I said, for improvement to make sure that all possible bidders are made aware. But I understand that it is a very comprehensive list that's been built up over the years. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I want to assure the Minister that I did not raise this question without a very legitimate reason. I have had suppliers of various services that government requires from time to time from my area, ask me about a job, why they weren't in vited to bid. They find out after the work has commenced because it has never been tendered that, yes, the work has commenced and somebody , maybe from 200 miles away, is doing the work when there is a person equa lly qua lified right in that very area who probably would welcome the opportun ity, and I give the Minister an example.

It was several years ago in the Muni cipality of Shoal Lake where the Town of Shoal Lake had requested of the Water Services Board that there be an expansion to their source of water for the town, they were desperately short on water. The Water Services Board decided that they would do some testing for water and there was a drilling rig brought in from southeastern Manitoba to do the testing - not the development of the well - but just to do the testing and I presume that was done under this thing, where there was no tenders let or anything.

At the same time there was a persCY.1 in the Shoal Lake area who was an expert in finding water and testing for water, who had drilled thousands of wells in that area over the last 40 years and his general knowledge of the area and his ability to find water were infinitely superior to that of the man that was brought in. He didn't know anything about it, had no opportunity to bid on it and the result was that the cost to the Town of Shoal Lake was a great deal greater because the Water Services Board natu rally turns over the costs of their surveys to the town.

They just provide the service and charge it back to the town, and it cost the town considerably more than most people thought was necessary, because if they had used the man that was in the area he could have found them what they were looking for at a much cheaper cost. It would have been a saving to the province and a saving to the community as well. I list that as an example, so that the Minister who provides these services should alert whatever departments are involved that probably the best source of supply, the source of knowledge and the chea pest job that they can get is probably right in the local area.

HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I certainly agree that there has to be more work done on local sourcing, and certainly we're doing that in the Purchasing Branch which deals primaril y with goods. The example that the honou rable member gave was dealing with services. The Water Services Board would have let that contract or would have engaged the contractor thems elves. It certainl y woul dn't ha ve been done th rough our Purchasing Branch.

However, I understand the analogy that is being made by the honourable member, and I agree that we have to continue to put greater emphasis on local sourcing of suppliers and are comm itted to doing that. The department is certainly taking a greater interest in that area already and we are certainly , as a government, commi tted to that kind of action as well. MR. H. GRAHAM: On another matter dealing with the same general field, and this is in the sma ll contract for purchase, what criteria does the department use for drawing up their specifications?

In particular, is there any preference given for Canadian-made as opposed to foreign-made goods, and what are the criterion that are used for drawing up the specifications in any of these tenders? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the department attempts to provide performance specifications as opposed to physical descriptions and brand names of goods; so, therefore, when any reference made to performance specifications is made on the basis of provincia lly produced or locally produced goods, specifications referred to are from catalogues that are of provincially produced goods as opposed to other provinces or out of the country.

So by moving towards this, we feel that it gives greater advantage for the local suppliers to meet and identify with those kinds of products because we're not talking about something that is foreign-produced or out-of-province, some brand name that is commonly referred to. We attempt to refer to, as I said, performance specifications that relate to the provincially produced goods. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I would like, at this time, to refer the Honour able Mini ster to some correspondence that I have received from last year.

In essence, it was a letter from the manager of Quest Metal Products Ltd. of Winnip eg and it was add ressed to the Honourable Al Mackling, Minister of Natural Resources, dealing with the Gull Harbour Resort Hotel and the kitchen facility addition. It's dealing in particular with ventilator and fire extinguishing systems where the specifications that were listed in the tender form, I 1290

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 presume, were American Seko (phonetic).

When the request, which was a Manitoba firm, made a clean air ventilator which was approximately $2,800 cheaper than the American one, and yet their bid was not accepted because it didn't comply with a specification which was American Seko, so I would ask the Minister if he has followed up that letter which was add ressed to the Honou rable Al Mackling and also to the Honourable Muriel Smith, Minister of Tourism, whether any of that correspondence has come to his attention and if so, what changes have been made in their tendering processes to alleviate some indi screpancies there? HON. A.

MACKLING: The Minister can answer the specific question that the Member for Virden raises about tendering practices, but I think the member should confirm that the correspondence on this with the Department of Natural Resources confirms, that at the request I think of some of the - and maybe it was that particular tenderer - the specifications were changed to accommodate Canadian equipment but notwithsta nding the change, the successful bidder was someone other than the person who complained about the specifications provided for American equipment.

The matter was dealt with fully and if the honourable member wants all of the detail in respect to that, that of course can be dealt with under the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. I thought I'd put it on the record that it is only part of the picture that the honourable member is presenting. So far as a specific about tendering practices, I think that's a good que stion and the Minister can deal with it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. I think this example that is pointed out by the honourable member is a good example of what we're trying to eliminate and avoid in the futu re.

There certainly has been proba bly numerous cases in the past where this has in fact taken place. Perhaps it used to be that it was more the rule than the exception, that we were not specifying clearly enough that performing specifications that could be met by local manufacturers.

Of course, we are trying to elimina te that as much as possible and wherever we find cases like this we would revise the specifications and make a conscious effort even before they occur of course to elimina te this kind of practice; but wherever it does occur, to revise specifications so that it doesn't happen in the future, and I think the honourable member has pointed out one of the problems that we are addressing. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I would like to again qua lify. I was not asking for the particulars in the particular deal.

The concern I had was in the actual specifications that occurred when the tenders were called for, and when we are trying to promote Manitoba­ produced goods to find that our own government, our own purchasing department is specifying American­ made goods as the specs that are necessary to qualify for the tender, that is the concern that I have and that is the reason why I raised the issue. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I think it's quite evident that was what was coming through when the 1291 honou rable member raised the issue and I think it can be said clearly that we agree we are trying to elimi nate that kind of a problem that obviously has existed in our pur chasing practices in this province through numerous governments. We are particularly trying to make an effort. We have singled this out as an area that we want to improve on so that we will be indeed able to purchase locally manufactured goods as a priority over out-of-province goods. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to go on record as indicating that in principle there is no que stion tha t I agree - and I think everyone in government agrees - that we want to ensure that in our tendering practices we give the fullest opportunity for Manitoba manufacturers, Manitoba suppliers to provide the goods. But in the case that the Honour able Member for Virden refers to, it wasn't that the Department of Government Services put this work out for tender as I recall.

This was a Crown corporation that operates the Hecia Resort, Venture Tours Ltd.- I believe that's the formal corporate name, I stand to be corrected on the formality of the name - and that board engaged a consultant and where I had more problem then in respect to the type of equip ment, was tha t the consultant was the person whose firm then got the contract. You will recall there was some valid concern on the part of some about how that had come about and I personally didn't like the appearance of that. We went into it and it seemed to be fair enoug h.

However the concern was, that the consultant had provided for, in the specifications, American-type equipment when it really wasn't necessary that it be American equipment. There was Canadian manufactured equipment available equ ivalent to that type of equipment. That was corrected but it wasn't the Department of Government Services tha t ha d been in volved in the dr aft ing of the specifications.

But nevertheless the department I'm sure under the Minister, like all of us, are concerned to make sure that the departments and any Crown corporations bear in mind the desire and the will of this government to give the fullest opportunity for local manufacturers and suppliers to supply on contracts for which government has any direct or indir ect responsibili ty. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Just to add to that, I just want to mention that we hope tha t through Systems Develo pment and computerization of our purchasing branch that we will be able to follow up on these kinds of problems in more detail over a period of time and that we will be able to detect commodities that we are consistently purchasing out of Manitoba and that the various amounts of commodities that we're purchasing from various locations and so on, so that we have an accurate background of the kinds of commodities that we are purchasing through government and where they're coming from.

That's one of the reasons why there's an increase in Other Expenditur es under this particular appropriation, because we are developing a

Thur sday, 31 March, 1983 system for purchasing in the government. Following the implementation of it, we will be able to keep a better track of where the purchasing is taking place and amounts and so on. As well, we are also hoping that we will be able to have Crown corporations follow this kind of a method as well, so they too will be making specific efforts to cut down on purchases and on writing specifications that make it very difficult for local contractors and suppliers to supply the goods in Manitoba.

So it will apply over a period of time to Crown corporations and agencies as well and no t just to gov ernme nt departments. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the wish of the comm ittee to pass 3.(d)(2)? The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: No, Mr. Chairman, I just raised one issue. I don't think it's the only one and it's just a very recent vintage.

I believe this practice is still carrying on and I would like to refer the Honourable Minister to a request that was made of him, I believe, by the Honourable Member for River East and his reply to the Honourable Member for River East of February 18th of this past year, "This is in response to complaints you have received from Mr. Tendies, Advance Avionics Aircr aft Li mit ed some months ago reg ardin g two tenders placed through the Purchasing Bureau of this department. "I understand Mr.

Tendies indicated he had not received the response to his letters reques ting information on Tender 15 -7 17 and Tender 12 -15 15. I am advised Mr. Dennis De Brincat of my staff spoke to Mr. Tendies on two occasions - October 20th and November 17 th - and asked to meet with him to answer questions concerning the tenders. Mr. Tendies did not respond. "With regard to the complaints, I can provide the follo wing information. Tender 15 -7 17 awarded to King Radio Corporation of Kansas, U.S.A. on the basis of lowest bid of $7,285 Canadian, including duty, U.S. exchange, brokerage and shipping to destina tion.

Advance Avion ics' tendered price was $8, 11 7. 75 Canadian, plus 5 percent revenue tax, and the bid did not include the specified microphone or power supply. The estimated cost of the two items is $735.00." Again I refer to the specified microphone and I would ask the Minister if those specifications again were by name brand or by engineering standards? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would not be able to say at this particular point whether they were by name brand or whether they were by performance or engineering specifications, as the honourable memb er said.

I would hope that th ey would be lis ted as performance specifications and that any brand that met those particular specifications would then qua lify for the bid, as meeting the qua lifications of the tender. However, in that particular instance I can't, at this particular time, follow- up in detail as to whether the tender did or did not, and if it did not, why it did not. But I, certainly consistent with what I said earlier , would like to see that performance specifications are what we are including in our tender forms and not brand names. MR. H.

GRAHAM: The Minister went on with his letter and he said, "It should be noted the foregoing tender was placed on behalf of the Manitoba Government Air Division." He said, "The Air Division is recognized as a dealer." Now I understood the Government Air Services to be primarily concerned with providing a service for the government, and here we find that they are, in fact, in the busi ness of selling radios. They are a dealer. Can the Minister clarify that statement? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Yes, I understand they're a dealer for that particular commodity because the manufacturer did not have a dealer for the requir ements of their commu nication equipment here in Manitoba. The Air Division, of course, is under the Department of Transportation. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, again this raises another point. The Minister stated that they are a dealer for a particular product and we have just gone through the other part of it earlier, where we are more concerned with specifications, rather than particular products.

We now find an arm of government is a dealer for particular products and, as such, the government is pur chasing particular products, disre gardin g the engineering specifications and the general specifications that should be applied, rather than naming of products. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that is the product that was specified by the client department, the Department of Highways and Transportation, and that is, of course, a problem that has existed, as I mentioned earlier , has existed for some time.

It can occur from time to time that client departments are specifying certain things and certain brand names, perhaps even sometimes, because that is what they have been using to meet their needs. We have to work, I would think, to get away from that and in this particular case, they were specifying a particular kind of microphone, I believe, and as I said that was what was asked for by the client department.

I think after we have been able to implement our policy more fully, provide better commu nication to all departments of what our priorities are, what we are attempting to do in purchasing, that we will elimi nate to a greater degree, as time goes on, these kinds of incidents. But certainly , I am not going to be defensive at this time or say that there are not situations where things are happening that are not as desirable as we would like them to be and this may be one good example where that has occurred. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, just let's go back and remember.

This is a letter written by this Minister, who is in charge of the Government Purchasing Department and he is the one that has written the letter. I haven't written the letter, it's his own writing and he goes on further and says, "The Air Division is recognized as a dealer and can purchase equipment and parts directly from this manufacturer at dealer prices." This 1292

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 is the Minister who is in charge of purchasing for the Province of Ma nitob a through the Depart ment of Government Services, and he's telling us that the Manitoba Government Air Division can purchase directly from this manufacturer. I was always under the impression that these things were provided by Government Services and it would not be proper for the Manitoba Air Services Division to be purchasing directly. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, also in that letter I did indic ate that the ov erriding question on these tenders is on the specifications them selves and that of the use of brand names. The Purchasing Bureau, to the extent possible, does tender by specification and not by brand name, however, when other branches of government are specifying highly technical equipment, it may be necessary to give clarification to requirements a commodity must have, by the use of a brand name produc t as an example. In such situations th e purchasing regula tions, as appears in every tender form, governs the evaluation in the award of the tender.

I would say that paragraph does outline the concerns that we have and this is on one that has occurred previously, I don't know the exact date of when this tender was let out, last fall I believe, but we will certainly follow up on that particular situation in the future and try as much as possible to eliminate this kind of thing from happening. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister has conveniently jumped further on the letter and I've got a long way to go on this letter yet.

I just want the Minister to confirm or deny that the Manitoba Government Air Division, according to his letter, can purchase equipment and parts directly from the manufacturer at dealer prices. Is that a correct statement or an incorrect statement? Remember it's your own letter. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Thank you for that reminde r. I would like to express my thanks for that. Of course, I woul dn't have realized that it was my own letter even though I had signed it, would I, Honourable Member for Virden? MR. H. GRAHAM: I don't know whether you recognize what you've done or not. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I have, Mr. Chairman.

I'm quite aware that my signature was on this letter and that I have signed this letter and written it. I can tell you that the advise that I have is that they are recognized as a dealer for the pu rchase of certain equipment. They have been in the past and this was the situation at the time that this occurred. I feel that it is possib ly, if it's going to lead to purchases of out-of-province goods, where they could be purchased in province, that this matter can be looked at. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, is the Minister then prepared to issue a directive to Manitoba Air Division to cease and desist as acting as a dealer, and that in future all purchases will be made through the Department of Government Services, and they are to desist from purchasing di rectly from manufacturer at dealer prices? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The specifications were outlined by the Air Division and I would be prepared to discuss this matter with the Minister of Transportation, to discuss exactly why the benefits, the advantages of the Air Division dealing directly on this particular matter, and if there can be any improvement made in the procedu res and the system that is currently in place, we will look at doing that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Natural Resources. HON A. MACKLING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I think the Minister has indicated concern to discuss the matter with his colleag ue and look into this purchasing practice and this dealership practice. My que stion to the Minister is how long has the Air Services employed this dealers hip arrangement? Has it been ongoing for some years or is this a new departure? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not exactly sure as to the length of time that this has existed but it certainly was in place at the time that this particular bid was made and I have no reason to believe that there were any changes made before that, that we have reverted to this method, but I can certainly find out the answer to that question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll go on then to the next sentence in the Minister letter.

He says, "This of cou rse results in dollar savings to the government, but also does have the effect of making it more difficult for dealers, such as Advance, to match prices on equipment man ufactured by King Radio." He said, "Advance Avionics are aware of this situation." Now, Advance Avionics is a Manitoba firm. I don't believe that the same can be said for King Radio Corporation. While we recognize that the Manitoba Government Air Division is also a Manitoba firm, I don't think it is our intention to have them operating as a dealer in competition with other dealers in the Province of Manitoba.

Is that a correct statement? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I think that is the opinion in the words of the honourable member. I can't comment on that. I could say that dollar savings, of course, is not the only concern , but certainly it has to be a concern of the government and if certain things can be purchased at times cheaper elsewhere, that it is done.

I said earlier that we are attempting wherever possible to provide methods by which we can purchase Manitoba goods wherever possible, and as I mentioned in our pu rchasi ng policy , where there's a margi nal price difference, that we could award a contract to a local supplier . But all of the economic impact and value 1293

Thursd ay, 31 March, 1983 added, etc., has to be made before a decision like that can be taken on a particular contract. MR. H. GRAHAM: Wel l, we'll go on with the letter then. In the next part of the letter, the Minister indi cates that Tender 12 -1 515 , Item I, 1 only VHP AM ground-to-air base station 11 8- 135.95 MHZ digital tu ning acceptable." And you say, "Because specifications were not met, this part of the order was cancelled and will be retendered at a later date." Mr. Chairman, I am also in receipt of a letter that was sent to Mr.

Phil Eyler by Advance Avionics Aircraft, the same company that had been referred to earlier in the letter and the letter starts out "Dear Mr. Eyler: I am in receipt of a copy of the response from Mr. John Plohman and in reviewing some of the replies, it is no wonder that this present government is financially unstable. "Page 3, Tender 12 -1515 , Item 1, 1 only VHF AM ground- to-air base station 11 8-13 5.95 digital tuning acceptable. He stated that these specifications were not met and would be cancelled and retendered at a later date. "According to Advance Avionics that is not true.

The fact is that the order for the same part of this tender was awarded to Star Ute Communications. Model was a John son 727 base type amount ing to $1 ,5 56 Canadian." Could the Minister pl ease clarify that point? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman , it is my understanding that the information as itemized in my letter is cor rect. I ha ve, thou gh, asked for an investigation further as a result of the letter that the honourable member is referring to and if, in fact, he is correct, then I will certainly follow up on that and take whatever action is necessary.

However, I'm at this time advised that was the correct information and that's why it was included in the letter. I would just say, Mr. Chairman, that we are asking for a further report on it as a result of the follow-up letter. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I just raised these things to point out a few things that are occurring in the Pu rchasing Department of the Department of Government Services. Apparently there are discrepancies that the Minister may not be aware of and it leaves me with the suspicion tha t perhaps not all is well with the Pur ch asing Department of government.

The Minister has indicated that he is carrying out a further investigation in this particular case. I would hope that the Minister would probably carry out a larger investigation to see to what extent things of this nature might be occurring and to take all steps to make sure that the philosophies and the general principles that he has annou nced to this commi ttee today, are adhered to. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, wher ever there are complaints, we will certainly look at. We are always anxious to find out if there are problems that are occurring.

Certainly there has always been, I think there always will be, some variations from what we would like to see in a large department and what occurs depending on the nature of the purchases that are made. Some of the purchases are very sophisticated electronic equipment and so on, and it's not as easy to apply the general rule, the performance specifications to them, but we will attempt to do that. I certainly appreciate that the honourable mem ber has raised this concern again. I was concerned in this particular instance and have as I said, responded to the last letter by asking for further information on it.

When we get that information, we'll follow it up. I believe there always has been and there will be variations from what we would like to see, but we have to deal with those when people come forward with their comp laints or their concerns, as there always will be when you're dealing with the public, when you're dealing with purchases. People are concerned if they do not get the tender. That has happened in many cases and if adequate expl anations are not there, then I would like to know why and I certainly would find out why.

In all cases though, I would hope that we are able to provide adequate information to supp liers, to individuals and to companies who are concerned that their particular tender or bid was not the successful one. We certainly welcome them to come in and discuss the tenders in detail with us. MR. H. GRAHAM: When the Honourable Minister completes his investigation into this particular matter, would he be good enough to provide me with a copy of his report? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Certainly , I would be willing to provide the honourable member with a copy of any correspondence going forth on this and I can say, as well, th at we ha ve al mo st $10 0 milli on worth of purchases in a year in this department. So there's bound to be, and I understand, a very small numb er of compla ints percentage-wise for the huge amount of purchases that are made through this department. Certainly , the ones that the honou rable member would hear about would be the ones where people are complaining, but I don't think that is indi cative of the overall performance of the Purchasing Branch. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3. (d)(2)- pass; 3. (e)(1) - pass; 3.(e)(2)- pass; 3.(e)(3) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, in the Acquisition of Materials for their Inventory, could the Minister indi cate to what extent those materials are made in Manitoba or in fact made in Canada as well? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the inventory, it is largely made up of furniture, construction materials, food and food-related materials, clothing and janitorial suppli es.

I do not have the exact figure of percentage that is for provincial that is Manitoba-made, but it is a large percentage that is currently purchased locally within the province. But as we have indi cated, we feel, and I think the honourable member has indicated, there are specific examples where purchasing is still being done out-of-province and we're trying to bring that percentage up as high as possible or as close as possible to 10 0 percent. There will always be some purchases that are made out -of-province because 1294

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 certain commodities maybe are not available, but we would attempt to reduce that as much as possible. I can't say whether it's 80 percent. That seems to be a figure that I have heard, 75 percent or 80 percent of the goods are produced in Manitoba, but I am not exactly certain whether that is an accurate figure. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (e)(3)-pass; 3. (e)(4)- pass; 3.(f)( 1) - pass; 3.(f)(2) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: The Tele communic ations Branch, I assume, co-ordi nates the telephone service, telex, all the com mun ication services used by the various branches. boards and departments of the government? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Yes, the Tele com mu nications Branch is responsible for the installation of services and the use of procedures and policy guidelines for tele commu nication services for government, as well as operating the centralized switchboard, receptionist services, ass embling and compiling the interdepartmental telephone di rectory information, reviewing, evaluating, preparing the reports on existing tele commu nication services within the Government of Mani toba, and liaison ing with the MTS Tele com muni cations Services with MTS as to the services required by the Government of Manitoba.

That is basically the realm of responsibilities falling under the Tele communi cations Branch. MR. D. ORCHARD: When the Min ister made his opening remarks he ind icated that there was an intergovernmental Centrex system that was approved, I believe, for co-ordination and installation back in, I think. about June of '81, but I'm not sure when it was. Now, I take it that's been completed. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I should say that has not been completed. It is in the process of being installed and will be completed, going onto that I believe in June of '83. MR. D.

ORCHARD: When we gave approval to that Centrex system, I recall the projections of some fairly significant cost savings in the telephone bill of the province. But yet, in Other Expenditu res, we've got a $340,000 increase which doesn't seem to fit with the projection of the cost savings that the Telephone System has indicated would have been available should we go to this Centrex system back in '81 - I believe it was approved in '81. What's the reason for the $340,000 increase in this expenditure? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The Other Expenditures figure is higher because the department is being billed di rectly by the Telephone System for WATS coverage and the budget does not reflect the reduced amount that is being bil led through the other departments for DOD. So what we have here is the amount shown that is bil led directly to this department for WATS coverage.

We then are able to collect in recoverables, if you will notice in (f)(3); a much greater amount from other departments, from other appropriations. from $1 25,000 to $930,000, so we're able to offset that by recovering a large percentage of the costs for the WATS and therefore our total costs are less. If you would work out the difference between those two appropriations, you would see that our total amount is much less than it would have been under the previ ous system. Departments will no longer have DOD costs in their budg ets, so that is a sign ificant saving overall to government. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Ok ay, I think I tried to follow the Min ister 's answer there. Our departments, line departments of government, are still paying telephone costs, or do they all appear under the $1 ,571 ,400 and then bil led from Government Services to the various user departments according to the amount of usage? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that is correct. Government Services bills them for the costs that they incur of that WATS cost. Any direct distant dialing that they do would be paid di rectly to the Telephone System . MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, then is the Minister saying that within the $1 ,571 ,000 that we're not necessarily seeing the entire telephone costs of the Government of Manitoba, the line departments of the Government of Manitoba? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Practically all, Mr. Chairman. There may continue to be a small amount of ODD in there but basically that will be primarily the total amount. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, then is the Minister justifying the $330,000 increase by the fact now that it's a greater percentage of line department calls being billed through the Centrex system and then recovered from the line department appropriations? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is correct. There will be about 2,000 more phones on Centrex, that previously were on WATS, than there were before when they were on ODD which is a more expensive service. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Could we then go to the other line departments that are in this Estimate Book, have them develop their telephone costs for us, and they should be down because this one is up. Would that be a fair assumption? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Their total costs for tele commun ication service for phones will be down because WATS is cheaper than di rect distant dialing, so you should be able to find a corresponding saving in other departments. MR. D. ORCHARD: Can the Minister show us that? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: My understanding is that we would have to go to each department to determine exactly what their costs were and what they are now, to show it and that it's not done, even as a separate appropriation. Each department is done as a code, and therefore it would be difficult to isolate from each department. 1295

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 MR. D. ORCHARD: I'm not sure how accounting or how Public Accounts - I've never really looked at this in Public Accounts - but is it fair to assume that someplace in Public Accounts there's a total telephone bill made up of what is under this appropriation, plus other appropriations throughout the department, is that a fair assu mption? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm advised that could be isolated in pub lic accounts. MR. D.

ORCHARD: But, it is still going to happen that because of the Centrex system that was installed, assuming there is no change in the volume of calls or where the calls are placed. If we're talking apples to apples, you 're going to have lower telephone long distance calls with Centrex? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the estimation is around 15 to 30 percent decrease in costs. MR. D. ORCHARD: Ok ay. So that means 15 to 30 percent on 1. 5 million or the total bill, just on the bill you bill through this department or on all bills? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, 15 to 30 percent decrease on the total DOD costs that were previously incurred by all departments. MR. D. ORCHARD: Has the Min ister in the Commun ications Services brought in any new services in the last year or so? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There have been a numb er of additional WATTS lines that have been added effective after March 1s t, 19 83 and there were two additional WATTS lines added to Saskatchewan, Ontario and Alberta, seven lines from five; one was added for B.C. and Quebec, one additional line was added there; we have 18 lines currently, we will be adding another four when Centrix is in. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I assume that part of the new services is the - well I guess it's an 800 numb er or whatever, but your universal numb er to call an MLA that's available toll free through rural Manitoba. That's a service, I think, that's come in in the last six months or so. What's it estimated that's going to cost for a year's operation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: For a year's operation approxima tely 20,000. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, from time to time, and I don't have the numb er with me, but from time to time one can phone a numb er and I don't know whether it ends up in the Teleco mmu nications Branch, but you phone this numb er and you get the latest good news from a Minister of the government, is that a new service? HON. J. PLOHMAN: It certainly hasn't been a service that I know that we've added since I've been Minister, I think that this existed last year already. I don't know how many years previous it existed. I could find out exactly when that was instituted. MR. D.

ORCHARD: That would be very helpful if the Minister could find out when that service was brought in, what its cost will be, what the purpose of the service is and whether all memb ers of the Legislative Assembly will have access to putting messages on this dial-in, phone your government information service. Would it be possible, for instance, opposition MLAs to like wise put a message on there to inform the public of things that they think are important to the information that they should have about the operations of government? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I wish the honourable member would be a little more specific as to the numb er and who answers it and so on, but I would think that any service such as this would give information about government and therefore would involve Ministers of the Crown as opposed to MLAs. However, as I said, I would be willing to get more information on that particular service that he's referring to, if he could be more specific how he gains access to it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I haven't found that I had a great desire to phone in and hear the golden tones of the Minister of Cultur al Affairs talking about the various grants he's given out and the Minister of Agriculture on the Crow rate and things like that. I haven't taken advantage of that, but there is a numb er that one can dial. I think the Minister could probably find out what it is, because after all I believe the government is paying for it. I believe his department is probably paying for it and I think he should probably be able to find out the numb er and how much usage there is of it.

If the Minister, when he's checking it out could find out the numb er of calls that have come in for this num ber, I know calls are monitored on those open access lines so that we're bil led on a per-call basis, and if he could ind icate whether MLAs in the Assembly could have access to putting messages on that particular service. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, certainly we'll find out, Mr. Chairman, exactly what the cost is and if it's not being utilized the way it should be, maybe we should be advertising it a little more and making it available.

It sounds like, if it's containing press release information and so on, that it might be a good service, but I would look into it, Mr. Chairman, and find out exactly what the costs are and exactly how it is operated. MR. D. ORCHARD: At the same time would the Minister advise whether memb ers of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition could put their press releases on it as well. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we will certainly find out all aspects of that service for the public. - (Interjection) - MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I'm not quite finished my line of questioning. Mr.

Chairman, I detect from the end of the table that the Minister of Natural Resources thinks that is not a proper request and he said something to the effect, 1296

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 not in your lifet ime, and now says, hear, hear, when I suggest that he's thinking it's not a proper request. But, you know, Mr. Chairman, there are a great numb er of Manitobans out there who, of recent, have found themselves unwilling to accept as forthright and correct information, for in stance, the Go vernment News Services press releases that come out.

Because there have been a num ber of instances pointed out in the House, as you're well aware, where the information was not entirely without a political bias to it and News Services has tended, particularly in the case of the rural newspapers, radio stations, etc., over the years come to rely on News Services as a factual presentation of new program announcements, etc.

That doesn't seem to be the case in the last year, particularly when the First Minister saw fit to bring the Government News Services out of, I believe, the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, although I'm not sure of that, and bring it into reporting to the Premier's Office and reporting through his press aide, Dan O'Connor. It was after that move that many of the rural media have que stioned the reliabil ity and the im pa rtiality of Government News Services and in - (Interjection) - if the Member for Springfield seems to have a problem with what I'm saying, I trust, Mr.

Chairman, that you'll recognize him sometime this afternoon so he can unload whatever's bothering him. In the meantime, I believe I have the floor. MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the members please speak one at a time? MR. D. ORCHARD: Do I have the floor, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is no question that the objectivity of Government News Services has come into qu estion with its new reporting through the Premier's Office.

What people are finding somewhat questionable is now the use of government funds to have an open line where you dial in and you get the latest up-to-date message from a Minister of the Crown.

There are those who, for whatever reasons, call that propaganda and they object to having taxpayer money being spent on promoting a political message, in their eyes, to the people of Manitoba using taxpayer dollars, because not all taxpayers in the province favour our political party or the government's political party and they tend to want news services not to be a politica l and propaganda arm of the government of the day, but rather a factual source of information that they can provide their readers with an objective breakdown of new programs, changes in programs, changes in regulations.

When the news services and these phone­ in telephone lines come in with, from time to time, biased messages, it destroys the objectivity in news services and deprives Manitobans, to some extent, of knowing what their government is doing. There is forum and there always will be a forum for political messages from MLAs and Ministers of the government and that's a press release put under their signature into thl:lir local newspapers or into the regional newspapers.

I would like the Minister to get us a little more information on how, when this particular telephone service came in and what its cost is and, particularly, whether all members of the Assembly would have access to putting their messages on it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I believe that, without having information on this line, it's probably that the honourable member has isolated where he has found out about this line and that is, he believes it's part of Information Services and, th erefore, probably will be paid for by Information Services.

It seems to me that he's objecting with the medium that is being used. If it's a news release forum from Information Services, that's okay, but if it's on a telephone, it isn't. I don't understand that this, in any way, would deprive Manitobans of what the government is doing. I heard that statement from the honour able member as well. I don't think that Information Services has any more political bias now than it ever had, and certainly isn't perceived that way by the public.

People are aware of the information coming from the government through Information Services, certainly through many forms of the media, and I cannot think that the honou rable member would be able to point to any particular examples to back up his statement that it is more political. Certainly, that is in the mind of the beholder as to whether they feel it is tactual or whether it is political.

The gov ernment certainly feels that the information given out through Information Services is factual information as always has been the case, as all governments, I'm sure, feel when they are supplying information about government to the public. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know the Minister may believe that what he said is correct and I hope he does, because then he'll continue to put out the same kind of - he won't change the system and that will, in no small way, lead to favourable elect ion results against him.

Now there is point-blank cases of misinformation going out under Government News Services. I pointed an instance out to the Minister of Agriculture last week. He has not brought back the information I requested to correct the message in Government News Services bull etin s. So, you know, there is a problem with information that's going out ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair reminds the Member for Pembina that the speeches should be relevant to the topic, to the item or clause und er di scussion. Information Services is under the Department, Executive Branch. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. I noticed that you were quick to jump on the Minister when he was mentioning News Services as well, and I thank you for that. Mr. Chairman, the telephone service that I referred to is, no doubt I believe, part of this Tele communications appropriation. I do not believe tha t it is part of Government News Services but, if it is, it will be bil led to you and be part of this appropriation even if it is redirected in its billing and recovered from News Services. So I think it is, in all likelihood, within your jurisdiction to find out and provide the information. 1297

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 �������������������� · HON. J. PLOHMAN: I have al ready stated, Mr. Chairman, that I will certainly find out where that service is being provided . I ind icated tha t earlier to the honourable memb er. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, my question has to do with the - I'll yield to the gentleman, if he likes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park has the floor . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you. My qu estion is about the telephones and it has to do with the members' telephones.

This is just a question to find out if it is possible for a member to have either another line installed and pay for it themselv es in their offices, if this would be a consideration through Government Services. Because when you're using, with the limited time, and you have someone tha t yo u're lea ving messages with, it becomes an impossibility ever to get someone through on your line if you're using it at all. My request is not for the government to pay for it, but something that a member would be able, if they would like that extra service, to pay for it themselves. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, this is the first such request that we've received from any members and I would certainly be prepared to look into providing that additional service if mem bers feel that it is inadequa te, and I think that we should then consider it. I would be prepared to look into it. If the honourable member would care to see me on this matter, I could follow it up. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I thank you, through the Chair.

I don't want to be causing a matter of undue cause but when I have heard people talking about constituency offices, I think an extra phone probably would suffice in many cases and for my own part, I would certainly be willing to pay for it, and I will bring it to the Minister's attention. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I took it that the honourable member was not wanting the government to incur any greater costs.

However, if we want to look at it as a service for members, in terms of all members being able to avail themselv es of increased telephone service in terms of the lines, then I think that would be a matter that should be discussed at the Board of Internal Economy, or whatever body is in existence at the time, that deals with services to members. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(f)(2) - the Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to comment earlier when the Member for Pembina was commenting about services to mem bers with regard to the use of the new service call-in num ber.

I had some reservations about making any such service available to mem bers, whether the y be gover nment back benchers or opposition members, for two reasons. One, because the government has a responsibility for the di ssemi nation of new service in formation, regardless of how the Member for Pembina feels that information may be constructed and whether or not he feels it has a political bias. And two, I don't think the Department of Government Services should be directly involved in determining what types of services should be provided by memb ers.

As the Minister suggested to the Member for Kirkfield Park just now, those services should be provided by the Board of Internal Economy and if the Member for Pembina wants to see that kind of vehicle provide those kinds of services, then I would expect his support with regard to a reform of that particular board and providing for an all-member board, which is going to be responsible for providing services to members.

So far that kind of support hasn't been forthcoming from him and until he decides that he wants a voice in the provision of services to mem bers, it's inappropriate for him to try to get it through the backd oor. I think it's inappropriate for the Minister of Government Services to take it on his own hat to try and provide those services. I think it would be wrong for him, so I think he's quite right in suggesting that these things should be referred to the Board of Internal Economy. Another thing I have problems with, Mr.

Chairman, is a suggestion by the Member for Pembina that news releases by the Information Services, whether they be provided through the Telecom muncations Branch in the special call-in telephone service that's being provided, or whether they be the news releases that are provided directly to the media by the Executive Council. The News Services Branch are political in some way, or biased in some way. The member has made a very serious allega tion, yet he's offered no proof.

He hasn't tabled one letter from a radio station or newspaper saying that they found that there's been a substantive change in the quality of these releases since the government changed. He's offered no proof and yet he's laid that kind of allegation on the table. Now perhaps he's going to want to make that allegation again when we get to the Executive Council Estimates, but when he ties it to what's being provided on the telec ommu niation service, I think he has an obliga tion to lay some proof before this committee when he makes those kinds of irresponsible allegations.

It only makes one recall the hundr eds of thousands of dollars that were spent telling Manitobans they were sitting on a gold mine before the last election. If he wants to talk about political advertising, ifs a very di fferent thing when we talk about tha t kind of advertising. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ma y I rem ind the Member for Springfield again about the relevancy to the item under discussion? MR. A. ANSTETT: With respect, Mr. Chairman, I am discussing exactly the item that you considered relevant when the Mem ber for Pembina was makin g his irresponsible accusations.

I'm only responding to the relevant comments, the comments that you considered relevant from him, in suggesting to him through you, Mr. Chairman, that if he wants to make those kind of accusations in the Department of Government Services' Estimates, then they not only have to be relevant but he's going to have to back them up with some facts. 1298

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Just with relat ion to the comme nts from the Mem ber for Springfield, certainly we don't really want to get into big cost issues when it comes to supporting big costs for the members. When I'm referring to a telephone, I'm talking about one little old line for a member who may want it. Now if this means it's going to be extensive cost for everyone, I don't think we're willing to get into that sort of a thing.

So possibly the Minister could just take a look at this type of thing and just even to bring a cost in would be a help. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I too, want to say a few words about the advice offered by the Honourable Member for Springfield. I find it rather strange that he would suggest that we break the law, because I understand it's illegal to tape a telephone conversation without the knowledge of the parties involved. - (Interjection) - You did. You wanted proof. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You know the Member for Springfield does get things twisted around in his mind on a regular basis. There was no desire on my part to obtain anything - as he puts it - through the backdoor as a service for members. What I was pointing out to the Minister of Government Servic es through this line 3. (

f) is tha t his Tele communi cations Branch does offer a line where Manitobans can phone this numb er and receive a message from various Ministers of the Treasury Branch. My qu estion quite simply was, would the Minister ind icate what the policy is in whether there was an opportunity for mem bers of the opposition, because a Democratic Government only works when people have access to both sides of any question.

I think my question and request to the Minister was just to simply investigate whether the polic y framework un der which this telephone service was developed would allow, from time to time, having Her Majesty's loyal opposition put a given message on tha t telephone line and have Mani tobans, who wish in formation, to get that information from them. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I would appreciate if the honourable member would give us the numb er so that we could find out this magnificent numb er that so many Manitobans are using to dial directly to the Legislature to get information directly from a Minister. The numb er has not been given, I've never seen it in a telephone book anywhere and I've never seen it advertised anywhere. So I would like the honourable member to provide that information as to where he can phone from Pembina, so that we can share that information with everyone else.

The inquir ies that I have made, the MLA toll-free line is provided through the Telec ommun ications Branch and there is a line also provided by a di rect line to the Brandon provincial building. But at this time they are not aware in the department of that particular service through Telec ommuni cations Branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(f)(2) - the Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, this Tele commu nications Branch, is this the branch that's responsible for dealing with Manitoba Tele phone System and providing them with the necessary information for MLAs' listings, telephone di rectories? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: That information is provided through the Tele communic ations Branch (Interjection) - that's right, and the listings have not in the regional directories, however, been prepared by the Manitoba Tele phone System themselves. MR. A. ANSTETT: In the absense of the Member for Emerson, who shares a regional telephone directory with myself, I realize the Minister has assured him that the error that's happened twice with regard to his listing in that di rectory won't happen again.

But I'd like to know from the Minister whether any direction has gone out through him to the Telecommun ications Branch and then hopefully to MTS, or directly from him to MTS, in his responsibility for that Crown corporation to ensure that not only will the Member for Emers on's listing be properly provided tor in the regional directory for Eastern Manitoba, but that something better than a listing of constituencies and MLAs' names will appear in regional directories in the future.

I bring to the Minister's attention the fact that muni cipal offices and other pub lic contact points are lis ted in the front of the regional directory with their add ress, the town in which they're located and street add ress and their telephone numb er, but MLAs and federal MPs are listed only by name and political affiliation and constituency which, if the purpose of the telephone directory is to enable the public to reach these people, is certainly of no assistance whatsoever.

I know the Member for Emerson shares my concern in this regard, so I bring it to the Minister's attention both on his behalf and in my own interest. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, as I ind icated in the House, the Tele commun ications Branch of the Department of Government Services now will review the proofs before they are printed by MTS to elimina te the error that occurred in the last year with regard to the regional telephone di rectories.

Previous ly, the Telecommun ications Branch did not review the regional directory information which was, as I said earli er, a condensed version of the main di rectories and now we will be doing that. So we will attempt to make every effort to eliminate that problem that has existed. In terms of the telephone num ber, the listing, I believe, also includes the caucus telephone number in the above, the listing of all of the MLAs indicating whether they are New Democratic or Conservative. There's a number in the regional directory, above.

There is a numb er of the caucus that I've seen - I don't think that there is for the ind ividual num bers - and I've ind icated that 1299

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 there was originally a reque st I believe by one of the members. I believe it was the Member for River Heights, who had sent a letter to Saul Miller, and I saw that response from the Chairman of the Board for the Manitoba Tele phone System in which the member had asked for having a telephone numb er present, and we had ind icated that would be the case in the future, that the caucus numb er would be lis ted in the new directories. Now, if the honou rable member is shaking his head that it wasn't in the past, that's true, but in the future the caucus numb er would be listed. MR. A.

ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, just to correct the Minister's impression as to what I was ind icating by the shaking of my head. The regional directories contain no telephone num bers whatsoever on the page which lis ts ML As and MP s. The Manitoba all-p rovinc e directory does contain, as does the City of Winnip eg, in the blue pages, the information the Minister suggests has been included in the more recent di rectories.

That was included both in the City of Winni peg directory last June and in the new Manitoba province-wide di rectory last November, but the regional directories that were issued this winter contained none of this information.

As the Minister well knows, representing a rural area with the advent of the rural small regional directory several years ago, most rural constituents tend to rely on those directories and put the larger bulky province­ wide directory aside because the small book serves almost all of their needs for their local calling areas and for the short, long distance calls in the neighbouring commun ities. So those tend to be the phone books that are beside the phone in most rural homes and in small towns and villages.

So I think it's important that the listings for MLAs that are contained in those books provide adequate information, since rural residents are not going to be consulting the larger directories. In addition, Mr. Chairman, I have some concern about the types of listings that are provided in rural directories for MLAs.

If one were to look up the name of the Member for Dauphin, or the Member for Lac du Bonnet, or the Mem ber for Em erson , or the Mem ber for Springfield, one would find the format for that member's entry unde r his name alphabeti cally in his home exchange and in those other exchanges within his constituency for which he'd paid a listing fee to be different. Some are in bold type, some have the name of the constituency beside the member's name, others don't.

Now, I realize that's up to the member to determine what he wants to pay for, but I think your Tele commun ications Branch could make all mem bers aware on a universal basis of what is available so they know exactly what they're paying for and what they can get Otherwise, every member is dealing individually with the Telephone Business Office and mistakes do occur.

I point out for the Minister's benefit that my listing in the City of Winni peg directory last June advertising a Zenith num ber, which I pay for at my own expense, for my constituents who have Winnip eg exchange numb ers is listed under Andy rather than under Anstett in the alphabetical listing. Now, luckily in my case, that turns out to be on the same page because of the sim ilarity of the two names. In addition, Mr. Chairman, my Zenith numb er and my name are listed in the yellow pages under "Signs." Now, that tells me that there is no co-ordi nated approach.

Now, the Minister smiles because I brought this to his attention before, but I want to put it on the record and ind icate that in terms of co-ordinating the listing for MLAs, and for MPs because they also are pri mary contact points for the pu blic with their governments at the federal level, should be a co­ ordina ted approach where everybody knows exactly what they can get, what it's going to cost them and how it should be done.

I think that's a benefit to all members but primarily to members in rural areas, and I'm sure the Minister agrees with me on this, but I think it's valuable to have staff not only hear it today but have it on the record, so they know what we're looking for in this regard. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we'll endeavour to provide the information as to what is available. Certainly that is service that we can provide. However, the actual dealings with what the ind ividual memb er would finally want to have has to be a matter between him or herself and the Manitoba Telephone System. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(f)(2)- pass; 3.(f)(3)- pass; 3.(g)( 1) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, proceed down to (g)(3). MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)(1) -pass; 3.(g)(2)- pass; 3.(g)(3) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indi cate to what extent government mail is parcelled to regions for distribution there and the subsequent postal saving that occurs in that respect? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that wherever there's a major provincial building, such as Brandon, Dauphin and similar types of facilities, mail going there is bundled in one grouping and sent out and then it's distrib uted from that point. MR. H. GRAHAM: Could the Minister ind icate, or has he any information as to the saving that cccurs in that respect? HON. J. PLOHMAN: In terms of the actual dollars for that particular matter, it is a considerable saving for the postal services.

However, the actual dollars I don't have in saving as to whether everything was to be mailed out individua lly as opposad to bundling it from a central postal service here in Winnipeg. But it certainly is a significant saving to do it that way, than to mail it individ ually. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, another item. I would like to ask the Minister if other means of communic ation, such as courier service, appears under postage. HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, courier services are paid for by the individual departments. 1300

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 MR. H. GRAHAM: So it doesn't appear under postage at all. HON. J. PLOHMAN: It doesn't appear under this appropriation. I can say though that we are bringing it to the departments attention to reduce the use of courier services wherever possible to save on costs to government and we have taken that responsibility to notify departments on this matter so that they would be aware that courier services can be quite inefficient in terms of commu nication distribution. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)(3)- pass; 3.(g)(4) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I notice we have an item of $30,000 Recoverable which Go ver nm ent Ser viees is attem pting to recover from Other Appropriations this year that they never attempted to recover in the past Could the Minister indic ate what that entails? HON. J. PLOHMAN: This is an attempt to recover the costs from departments when there is any special or large mailings that go out from departments that are not of the usual nature. MR. H. GRAHAM: Could the Minister be a little more specific? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I will attempt to get the honourable member some specific examples of large mailings that are recovered from ind ividual departments. MR. H. GRAHAM: Are you including express and freight as well? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, that is not included in that figure, Mr. Chairman. MR. H. GRAHAM: All I can say is I wish the Minister well then. A $30,000 saving is a $30,000 saving. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, if there's a new program that hadn't been planned for that is added by a particular department then we would attempt to recover the costs tor mailing for that particular program.

That is where the $30,000 would come in. As you said, we're hopeful that we can collect that amount but that is not necessarily so. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)(4)- pass. RESOL VED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exce eding $7 ,29 1,4 00 for Go ver nment Services, tor the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 84- pass. The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: No, Mr. Chairman. The Member for Pembina undertook to provide a telephone numb er for the Minister. He has gone to get that but he will give it to the Minister on his return. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. 1301 I have some information, Mr. Chairman, before we go on perhaps that the honou rable member would like unl ess he wanted to receive this after, and if he would like we could continue to progress with the Estimates. I have the num ber of four-wheel drive vehicles, for example, by departments here. The Department of Agricultur e has 17; the Department of Na tu ral Resources has 66; the Department of Highways has 9; the Environment 3; Energy and Mines 3; and I don't know where the Elite Potato Farm gets in there, but that's a total of 99. MR. H.

GRAHAM: I would like to know where the Elite Potato Farm got in it too. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The Department of Agriculture has 17 , plus one would be 18 . MR. CHAIRMAN: What's an elite potato? A MEMBER: Where is the potato farm? I don't know. Probably in Harry's constituen cy. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. My understanding is, that the Premier has used Ministerial pool cars on four occasions when his car was being serviced but has not used the pool car except for when his own car was being serviced. I have the Central Vehicle Branch, the gasoline purchases.

The order went to Imperial Oil this year on December 28, 19 82 - 2.5 million litres regular and unleaded gasoline - the total was $666,250.00. There were seven bids rang ing from $666 ,0 00 up to $747,000.00. I'm also told that Mohawk have never indi cated in the past a desire to bid and therefore did not submit a bid this year as well. I'm not aware why they have chosen not to biJ. However I'm going to be asking why they have not bid so they are not included as one of the seven bidders in there as I indicated Imperial Oil was the low bid.

The Manitoba Beef Commission has been assigned, I understand, two vehicles, the General Manager one, and the Marketing Manager one, for a total of two. MR. H. GRAHAM: Could the Minister check that again please? I think there may be more recent information. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, certainly, we can check it.

The Department of Agriculture is, I believe, currently in Estimates as well and would be able to answer the numb er of vehicles that they have for the Beef Commission but the latest information that we have and we received today was, that there are two and I can certainly check that information for the honourable members. MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the pleasure of the committee with respect to Resolution No. 84? Pass. We are now on Item No. 4.(a)(1)-pass; 4.(a)(2)­ pass; 4.(b)(1 )-p ass; 4.(b)(2)- pass; 4.(c)( 1)- pass; 4.(c)(2)- pass; 4.(d)(1) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I notice there is a significant increase in the salaries here. Could the

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 Minister indi cate how many additional planners he has in his department? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there have been five additional SY's added for the Planning Branch. These particular people are coming from - 10 of the people to form the Planning Branch are coming from Design Services and Project Management. So there is a total of 10 coming from those two departments and an additional five will be hired to form the new Planning Branch.

Coming from the Design Services will be one administrative secretary, two architectural planners, one drafting technician, and from Project Services will come four space planners and two acquisition officers, so a total of 10 . Those are the current staff that will be moving towards the Planning Branch to form what will be a 15 -member Planning Branch, 10 from within other existing branches and five new ones to serve the function of planning for the department. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, having taken all those people from Desi gn and Project Ma nagement, I presume they have been repla ced by others in those same departments as well because the salaries have not decreased there, or are we facing a dupli cation of salaries again? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the figures on the left have already been reduced to reflect the changes of the SY's. The increase in the salaries is due to the factors that I ind icated before at the beginning of our Estimates, 27th pay period and so on that I ind icated earl ier.

So they have already been adjus ted to reflect the changes in the numb er of personnel. MR. H. GRAHAM: Is the Minister telling us then that the figure, for instance, in Design Services of $1, 21 8,900 on the left-hand column is not the figure that was actual for last year? It has been reduced? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There has been a reduction in both the Design Services appropriation and the Project Management appropriation to reflect the movement of SY's from those two branches into the Planning Branch. MR. H. GRAHAM: Can the Minister indicate when those transfers took place?

In fact, it might be advisable if the Minister gave us a complete sheet of SMY's for this particular seg ment, for the Project Services segment; in fact, even for the whole department, SMY's and the transfers that have occurred and show us where the people have been transferred and things of that nature. I'm sure, he has those sheets readily available. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I've just ind icated very clearly, Mr. Chairman, that there were 10 SY's transferred from two branches.

Design Services have given up four and Project Management have given up six that have been real lo cated for 19 83-84 Budg et purpo ses to the Planning Branch. In addition to that, there are five new SY's added. That is why there is as much of an increase as there is there, almo st doubling from 287,000 to 51 5,000 in the Planning Branch. That function, the Planning Branch function, part of that was happening in Design Services and Project Management in previous years. So that's why that is being indicated as having an expenditure of that amount for the previous year, although it wasn't done in a separate branch.

Now the formation of a separate branch includes those 10 people from the other two branches and five additional people, so we have a transfer out of 10 people from Design Services and Project Management into the Planning Branch. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I think that everyone who has had anything to do with government has always been somewhat concerned with planners if you have them dispersed, one or two here and one or two there.

When they are individually accountable, they're usually pretty good people but, when you put 15 of them all together, there is a tendency for them to go hog wild and nobody is really responsible. I think that we've got a Pandora's Box here that we're not too sure - I hope the Minister knows what is going on there because he hasn't shown us yet what is going to happen when you put 15 planners all together in his department. That is only one department of government. It does cause us some concern here. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I indicated earlier that these people are not all planners.

There are four space planners, as I ind icated, who are moving from Project Services who evalua ted the need for space for the government in terms of leased acc om modation and bui ldings, accommodation for various departmental offices. They will continue to do that function in this new Planning Branch. There will also be the acquisition officers now under this Planning Branch. Previously there were two. Now there will be three because they have had difficulty in meeting the needs, in working with other departments to meet the needs of th ose departments for consolidation and so on.

This department has been set up to provide space planning for the government, primarily with regard to working with other departments in planning their programs, · their space needs, as they outline their programs for institutions, for example, where they are needed th ere; where ther e's been a gap in th e Government Services being able to work with other departments in planning the space requirements for their programs as they develop, and so •hey have to work together on that.

We want to be able to also assess when we should be leasing, when we should be building, those kinds of decisions would also be made in this Planning Department. So, we've taken some of those functions from other branches and put them together into a Planning Branch. By no means is there going to be 15 planners. There is a director required for that particular branch and there is a secretary, typist, clerk and so on, who are as support help, support assistants.

We beli eve that those functions are necessary in government to help us plan for the space that the government needs and work with other departments in laying out the space requirements that they have. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is the Minister saying that when we look at the left hand 1302

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 column line un der Design Servic es Project Management, those figures aren't the print from last year, they are the print from last year less the transfer, is that what I take to be correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's what I said, Mr. Chairman, they transferred out the people that will be forming a new Pl anning Branch and th erefore reduce the appropriation by that much. MR. D. ORCHARD: When did those transfers take place? HON. J. PLOHMAN: They haven't, Mr. Chairman, taken place. In fact, they have taken place for Estimates purposes, they will be taking effect in April. MR.

D.·ORCHARD: Well, you have further fuzzified the mud ification of what you are saying, because you're telling us that they're still in the Design Services and Project Management, but yet you've removed them from those lines, you've put them in another line, where they're not there until next year.

I think what the Minister should do is provide us, for each salary line in the Estimates, the SMY count from last fiscal year and the SMY count for this fiscal year so that we can try to help him understand where these people are going and what they're doing, because I may be wrong, but I don't recall setting up the Estimates, showing a transfer in salaries from the previous fiscal year before it occurred.

It seems to me that when we had staff shuffle-a rounds in the Department of Highways - and I'm open for correction on this - I believe that we showed the print plus the reconciliation statement of the salary increment and that was the only change. We didn't show staff changes until we got into the right-hand column for the fiscal year in which the staff changes were going to take place.

The Minister seems to be telling us that he's struck these Estimates along a little different line and to make it become more clear what he's done, if he could provide us with the SMYs from last year and the SMYs for this year so that we can have sort of a path to follow as to what he's accomplished and determine, indeed, how many SMYs there are in addition and how many deletions there are. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we can go through exactly how many SYs were listed in each of those branches and provide that information.

It's not a long detailed affair, we're dealing only with two branches within the same appropriation, within Project Services. We are dealing with two branches that have been changed to form another branch. It was done this way, I imagine, by Finance to present in a clear way exactly where the function was moving from. Last year that function still existed to a certain extent in Design Services and Project Management. Another way to do it would have been just sim ply to put zero in those and left the other appropriations up where they were.

However, they have chosen in Finance to lay the Budget out this way so that it would clearly ind icate that some of those functions did exist previously in other branches. So, they've ind icated that those functions· will be part of the new branch that is going to be formed. We are dealing with Estimates for 19 83-84, so we're dealing with the right-hand side of the column as the honourable member knows, and those are the numbers that we are asking for approval, not the members on the left. But the num bers on the left are structured in that way to show that function did exist before.

Had they put zero on the lef t-hand side, it would have looked like they were entirely new function and entirely new people being dealt with there. MR. D. ORCHARD: Let me ask the Minister another question. The Minister has ind icated to us that under the lef t-hand column under (b)(1) and (c)(1) that there is a reduction showing staff that have been transferred out. Are we to assume that the $287,200 in (d)(1) has those reductions from (b)(1) and (c)(1) added in? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, that is correct. Mr. Chairman, it is the reductions from (b)(1) and (c)(1) that form (d)(1) .

In addition to that, there is the provisions for five additional people. MR. D. ORCHARD: In last year's Estimates, there was no Planning Branch, is that fair to assume? HON. J. PLOHMAN: There was no Planning Branch as such, as a separate ident ify. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay, I think it's getting a little closer now. When you go from the lef t-hand side to the right-hand side, the increase is reflected not only in salary increases but in additional SMYs. But, am I still correct in assuming that the Planning Branch, as it is to exist in fiscal year 19 83-84, does not yet exist? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes.

It does not exist as of today, March 31s t. It will come into form tomorrow, April 1st is the new fiscal year. At that time, during the next few days, the branch itself will be set up. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, can the Minister, as this happened last year, provide us with his SMYs throughout the Estimates on a nice little printout sheet, so that we can have it on file and follow what he's doing. We'll give him an opportunity to do that on Monda y, we certainly don't expect him to do it in the next 10 minutes. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, last year, the Design Services had 46 SYs in that branch and now there are 42. - (Interjection) - Mr. Chairman, I would like the honourable member to listen; he's asked this question five times, I've told him five ti mes, he still doesn't understand it. I want to list out the exact numb er of SYs; I said how many were transferred out before, now I'm giving the honourable member the total numb ers that were in that branch last year and this year - 46 last year, 42 this year. So, that's 4 from Design Services. I indi cated that earlier.

In Project Management there were 21 last year, now there will be 15 in the new fiscal year. So that accounts tor the other six. The Planning Branch had zero last year, it will have 10 from those two appropriations this year. That gives you the complement of 67 last year and 67 this year. 1303

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 MR. D. ORCHARD: I want to thank the member for his very good information on those three lines and can he provide us with a printout sheet on Monday that shows the other lines? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm not clear exactly what the honourable member wants. Does he want an outline of how many SYs in each branch? We've told the honou rable member in my opening statement exactly how many SYs there are in the department; reduction and net reduction of 12 over last year, and we said where the changes were, in which branches there were reductions, in which branches there were increases.

So I would like to know exactly what the honourable member wants on his nice neat slip of paper that he's talking about. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, obvious ly the Minister had a nice little sheet of paper from which he collated those facts. If he could provide that to the commit tee, it would enha nce the understanding of where his staff SMYs have been going, where the transfers are, where the increases are, where the decreases are.

If he were to provide it and if he wants me to go through every line in the Estimate, I'll do it, but if he were to provide in every line, where it says Salaries, the SMYs for last fiscal, SMYs for this fiscal year. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Certainly we can provide that information, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(d)(1) - pass; 4.(d)(2)- pass; 4.(e)(1) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, in Land Acquisition there's often, I guess, cases that tend to get difficult to handle maybe for a numb er of reasons.

But I've got a couple and I've been work in g with the Land Acquisition Branch to atte mpt to get some thing resolved. One, I'm most embarrassed to say, goes back all the way, I believe, to 19 76. I didn't hear about it until about '80 or '81 and it still isn't solved. This is a chap, Robert Shields is his name. His land was, I believe it was expropriated, but I'm not sure whether it was expropriated, but it was purchased for the redevelo pment of No. 3 Highway through La Riviere.

There's been an awful lot of back and forth stuff and I was trying to get it resolved, but unfortuna tely an elect ion prevented me from doing tha t and - (Interjection) - No, no, this was in about '81 that he finally - yes, it's been going on since '76, it's been going on a long time, but he's been a patient man thinking he's going to get it resolved and he just come to me with it in either late '80 or '81. It's a complex one, I'll grant you, it's a complex one. I thought it was very close to being solved about a year ago and I contacted him again and it's still back and forth.

I wonder if the Minister might make an effort to try to take this one on and see if he can get it resolved, because it's going - I'm quite sure it's '76 - so that makes it seven years now, going on seven years. If he could take a look at that one and at some point in time just see if he can't get it resolved, get through the various paperwork and whatnot. There's another one that I'd like to bring to the Minister's attention. It's an Edward Gordon McGill at Clearwater. I've been back and forth on this one a couple of times.

It's land that was required for the redevelopment of - I don't have the numb er here - I can't tell you the P.R. numb er, but it's the gravel provincial road that goes north from Clearwater up towards Rock Lake. If the Minister could put a little spark under the negotiations here and get things speeded up, it would be greatly appreciated. In general terms, does the Minister have - Oh no, I'm on the wrong line. The Minister might want to see if he could help with those two particular ones. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we'd be very pleased to take down tha t in formation from the honourable member and look into those two cases. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(e)(2) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was away for a couple minut es. Under the Land Acquisition, could the Minister give us a general rundown on the poli cy, or is there a policy in government in the acquisition of land for projects which may be several years down the road? At what time does the government move in and purchase land, or are they more concerned about putting caveats against the property for its future use?

Is there a policy at all, or is it a case of treating each thing on an individual basis? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the Department of Government Services, through the Land Acquisition Branch, would respond to requests from individual departments, as they make known their requirements for land for projects that they are planning. We would react to those requests and try to achieve the results as quickly as possible. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, that does cause me a little concern because I'm sure if any department requir es something, they will go to Government Services and say, get this for me immedia tely , even though they may not need it for 10 or 15 years. I just wanted to know if Government Services, in its operation, tries to evaluate each request, or do they thems,'lves make any attempt at all at trying to evaluate the needs of the department, or do they just go out and carte blanche accept the recommendations from each department and try and implement it as quickly as possible? HON. J. PLOHMAN: All new acquisitions, Mr.

Chairman, have to, of course, get mini sterial approval in the ind ividual departments and also, new acquisitions have to be app roved by Treasur y Board before Land Acquisition, Department of Government Services, would act. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister give us any ind ication then of how much land the province has acquir ed and then found out later they didn't have any use for it, and what attempts have been made at disposing of it? 1304

Thursday, 31 March, 1983 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we don't have the exact figure. I would n't have it available at this time, in terms of the exact figure, in terms of the numb er of hectares of land that have been purchased and that are then not utilized. I'm advised that it is a very small percentage of acquisitions. MR. H. GRAHAM: Would the Minister have available an inventory of land acquisition that his department has acquir ed for various departments that still has not been utiliz ed by those departments? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised we can get that information for the honourable member.

It might take a little bit of time, we certainly can't get it today. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I raise this issue because it is a concern to the people of Manitoba. I have had constituents who've had their land either acquired through expropriation, but it has not been used for the purpose for which it has been acquired and in some cases the government has owned that land for a numb er of years and there appears to be no attempt by government to utilize the land, and yet they are still sitting holding it.

I think it would be in the interests of the people of Manitoba if the government would give us an inventory of that so that the people would know how much land government, in its contrived haste, has acquired and then found out that they didn't later on need it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, it's quite p�ssible that there would be instances in Highways, for example, where there was land that was acquired and then the particular job did not go ahead and so that land is sitting, it may still be needed in the future. But we can identify those sections where that has occurred and how long it has sat there.

I'm certain that this has been the case through several governments in the past, and what the honour able member is pointing out is a problem that he would like to see add ressed at this time. It has built up over a numb er of years. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30, comm ittee rise. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture, Item 5.(hX1) - the Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I wasn't just clear at the adjournment of the comm ittee that the questions asked by the Member for Rhi neland were being add ressed or taken as notice and that the Minister was going to respond at some other time. Is that what he's proposed to do? The question is: is he going to deal with the questions of the Member for Rhi neland now or at a later time, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, if the memb er recalls, I ind icated to the honourable Member for Rhi neland that the report in conjunction with PFRA is in the process - those studies are in the process of being done, dealing with the Altona situation, and I indicated to the member that we'd send him, provided the copy isn't too voluminous, at least a summ ary of their recommendations in the report dealing with the water supplies as soon as we had it, at a later date, Mr. Chairman. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I have very little more to deal with on this and I understand there were some questions the other night, specifically on the Roblin Irrigation Project, the effluent project, that in all reports that I have read, has worked very successfully. Is the Minister or does the Minister plan to implement or install any of these kinds of disposal systems in any other communi ties in Manitoba in the coming year? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that we need at least another year of practical application and ana lysis before we would be making tho se determinations as to how much further we'd branch out in these areas. Mr. Chairman, while I'm on my feet, the Honourable Member for Turtle Mo untain raised a numb er of questions prior to the lunch hour. I answered some of them, but I will go through his questions about the contract on ecological agriculture. His questions were: Who wrote the terms of reference? The consultant, V. Scott, along with members of staff developed the terms of reference. Who is providing economic services?

Economic services are paid for by the consultant, and the person working under the consultant is Michael Jansen. The contract and terms of reference were approved by Treasury Board. Su pport was received from many caucus members, inclu din g support received from individua l farmers. The report is expected to be available within the next two weeks. Costs of the contract will remain as outlined, but the department is considering an extension of time to allow for collating and completing of the report. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(hX 1)-p ass; 5.(hX2)- pass; 5.(

j) Agricultural Crown Lands Branch:

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, dealing with the Agricultural Crown Lands Branch, I want to have the Minister, if he is able to, justify how he was able to change the policy and advance the charges for Crown lands used through the Department of Agriculture, or adminis tered through the Department of Agriculture, increase those rates without taking into account the returns that the cattle producers are receiving. As well, Mr.

Chairman, without adhering to any guid elines implemented by the Federal Government, the 6 and 5 guidelines, at a time when everyone in society is trying to deal with the tough economic conditions, admi ttedly by the Minister implementing a Beef Stabilization Program, and at the same time saying it is to help them on one hand, and then on the other hand he's going to take the money out of their pocket, and is not sticking to the kind of formula that's been 1305

Thur sday, 31 March, 1983 in place over the past many years; really removing from that policy of using the formula of returns to the cattle producers from the marketpla ce, and now saying that his objective is to recover the admin istrative costs for the province over a period of some th ree years, in crea sing it in some cases to some particu lar individuals by 30 to 70 percent on their Crown leases this one year with the objective of going to a 100 percent recovery within three years. I, Mr.

Chairman, would think that the Minister in his timing, and in his announcement, should have been more carefully put together. As well, Mr. Chairman, I have a qu estion for the Minister of Agriculture. Why would he tell a group of ranchers in his own constituenc y, or in the Mem ber for Ste. Rose's constitue ncy, that he would have representation at a meeting of some 200 to 300 farmers that are concerned about the Crown land increases, and there was, in fact, no one from his office showed up?

I understand the director of Crown lands was at that meet ing and I unde rstand th at the Crown lands representative from Dauphin was at that meeting. But, Mr. Chairman, I think the meeting were somewhat expecting a member of the Minister's personal staff, someone to bring a message back. I don't think it is the responsibilty of the Department of Agriculture staff to go and defend the Minister politi cally . If that's what he thinks his department should do, then I think he is using them in an incorrect way.

I think there was a clear understanding by that group of ranchers and farmers in his neighbouring constitue ncy, if not directly in his constituenc y, to have had a representative there to bring back the message that they wanted him to hear. Mr. Chairman, I don't see how the Minister can sit here and justify increases to the farm community in Crown lands when, in fact, he realizes or should realize the difficult times that they're having. The point I want to make, Mr.

Chairman, is, now that he has changed his policy of charges on Crown land to saying that it is now the responsibility of the farmers to pick up 100 percent of the adminis tration costs, how can he, at the same time representing that farm commun ity, justify the kind of increased wages that he's giving to the civil servants who are getting a lot more increase than any farmer is through the returns of his. commodities? Something doesn't add up, Mr. Chairman.

I cannot understand why this Minister of Agriculture, at a time when the farm community is having one of its most difficult times from the recession, says that his policy is now to change and he is going to get a cost recovery for the Department of Agriculture over a three-year period and not taking into account the returns that those producers are getting for their livestock. He cannot justify it, Mr. Chairman. He cannot justify it to this Chamber or to the farm commu nity, and I say, Mr.

Chairman, further evidence of that is in the fact that he was unable to attend - and I know that was the night that the House opened, but he didn't have anyone specifically representing him on a politic al basis from his office. He didn't have anyone there but staff to take the kind of guff that he should have been there to take, and the kind of criticism, is what I should have said, Mr. Chairman, which he or a representative should have been there to accept. He wasn't able to go to that meeting because of the House opening. I was invited; I wasn't able to go, Mr. Chairman.

However, I can assure you that I phoned two people precisely to be there just to put forward or to bring back the kind of message that I felt was important. But he didn't have anybody there, Mr. Chairman; he indicated he would have, but he didn't have. And there is only one reason, I would think, why he didn't have - it's because he can't take the heat, Mr. Chairman. He can't take the heat or the criticism or, in fact, he can't justify the policy that he introduc ed for the renters of Crown land. Is that the objective, Mr. Chairman?

I ask the Minister, is it his objective, as a member of Treasury Bench, to have compl ete cost recovery through every department of government from here on through? He is saying that the farmers who rent Crown lands over the next three years will have to pay the full cost of admin istration of the Crown Lands Branch. Is he saying that all his Cabinet colleagues from here on through have got the same policies? That every Minister is now going to make sure those people who use government property, that all those costs are going to be recovered by the use of those programs? Because that's what he's saying.

I haven't got his press release here but I can get it pretty fast. His press release stated that his objective, Mr. Chairman, was to get the cost recovery of the admi nstration of Crown lands. It's a deviation and a change from the one that was in place, the one that was in itially put in place, I believe, by their admin istration; it was carried on and there was a reimplementation of that during our term of office, but held steady because the livestock market didn' t increase. But now he has deviated from that, Mr.

Chairman, and he is just saying his present policy is to get the admin istrative costs of the Department of Agriculture back on Crown lands. I don't think the farmers in Manitoba should be expected to do that, Mr. Chairman, particula rly at a time when they're going through the type of economic recession that they are being faced with.

I would ask the Minister to try and justify how he's been able to make such a policy change and if he is in fact going to have his other Ministers in the same Cabinet that he sits, have all departments aim towards that kind of a target, where all the costs of government are paid for by the users of Government Services, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, first of all I don't beli eve that the honou rable member is fully aware of how the formula that is in place on Crown lands works and I won't even try to explain it to him, because I venture to say that he may not understand it. I am certain that he is unfamiliar with the workings of the formula. Mr. Chairman, I should mention to the honou rable member just to set the record straight about meeting with producers, a call was received by my office, Mr. Chairman, from the representatives of the Reeve of the LGD of Alonsa.

At that time I was away - I did not take the call myself - the call was referred to my deputy's office, who informed the Reeve that there would be staff representation at the meeting, Mr. Chairman. In fact, I have to say and I have to admit that I was not 1306

Thursday, 31 .March, 1983 advised by my own staff - and that's a fault of my own - that that meeting was in fact occurring that evening, because the call was put through and referred through the office. But notwithstanding that, Mr. Chairman, staff did meet with the farmers of the area at which time a comm ittee was set up of producers and muni cipal officials in that area, which I had the occasion of meeting just the other day. We had a several hour meeting to discuss the whole issue of Crown lands. Mr.

Chairman, as a general policy, we have felt that the users of the service of Crown lands provided by the government should pay a fair share, not as the Member for Arthur alleges, a full share, but at least a fair share for the cost of providing that service. Thus, if costs go up, the fees charged for using this service need to increase as well if users are going to continue to pay their fair share of the costs of that service. Mr. Chairman, Crown lands used for forage leases are the cheapest lands in the province for beef production.

Fees for these lands have not increased since 1979, yet they are available to only a small number of beef producers in the province. About 18 percent of Manitoba's beef is raised on Crown land.

The cost to the public to provide these Crown lands have increased each year sine 1979, thus, these farmers and ranchers - I have to say and they recognize it although I will discuss what happened at the meeting a little later on - are I would say, fairly fortunate to have the availability of Crown lands for them but they have had a sign ificant break in their costs compared to the majority of beef producers in the province who do not have access to Crown lands. For this reason, Mr.

Chairman, it was decided to increase the forage lease rentals for 19 83 and again in 19 84 which would have farmers who use Crown land continue to pay a fair share for this use. As a result of this increase, the average cost to graze one cow on Crown land leases, if fencing costs are included, rose to $1 7.84 in 19 83, from $16 .17 in 19 82, or an increase of $1 .67 per cow, or just over 10 percent.

I use the word "average" advisedly knowing that there are areas of the province - and Alonsa happens to be that area of the province and some Northern Affairs areas - where the increases in percentage terms far exceeded the norm that I have talked about, Mr. Chairman. But this compares to an estima ted cost of $64.00 per cow for private land operators. Since making this announcement, Mr. Chairman, a numb er of farmers and the committee - I met with the comm ittee this week on Monday, Mr.

Chairman - of producers from the area that the Honourable Member for Arthur mentioned earlier and my colleagues, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and the Minister of Public Works joined me in the meeting to meet with the delegation from that area. Although our regulations do not allow for a complete change in our formula until the establishing of rates before 19 85, Mr.

Chairman, in meeting with the farmers we have decided that we will set up a comm ittee of producers around the province to review, not only our rate structure, our formula, but as well look at the rela tionships of Crown land lease rates to other lands in the other provinces. Mr. Chairman, I should mention to the Honourable Member for Ar·thur, when we discussed the lease rates and the impact of the formula on specifically the area that he comme nted on, Alonsa, the average lease rate in Alonsa came up to approxima tely $10 .19 a cow; it ranged from 9.39 to 10 . 19. But I want to tell you, Mr.

Chairman, that in our discussions, the farmers indicated - and this came as a surprise to myself and to our staff - they said that the $10 rental rate per cow was not exorbitant, but they felt that somehow those lands that they had under their jurisdiction could not carry the num ber of animals that they were being charged for, Mr. Chairman. That's what came out of the meeting.

I said notwithstanding that, I asked them for their advice as to a makeup of the commi ttee, terms of reference, and that we would be prepared to set up such a comm ittee within a month to two months - I talked about a 45-day period - to see what kind of terms of reference could be developed and where we would go for 19 84 and thereon. Mr.

Chairman, I did as well tell them that if there were recommendations, that the committee could come back with some recommendations that showed that somehow our announc ed increases for 19 84 would be out of line, we would be prepared to hold those increases and review them for 19 84, but the 19 83 increases have and will stay, Mr. Chairman.

We believe that in terms of the rates of Crown land, even in the areas where the percentage increases were of the 30 to 50 percentile range, the lease per cow in those areas is still the lowest rental rate on any Crown land in the province notwithstanding that rental rates for uses of private land or PFRA far exceed the rental rates that are charged on Crown lands. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr.

Chairman, in reply to the remarks of the Minister where he says it's still the cheapest, I don't argue the fact that it is the cheapest, but one thing that I wonder is whether the Minister has been looking at what happens to people that have Crown land, that are leasing Crown land, because no services are provided to that land in terms of roads. drainage, dugouts, fences. All these things are the cost to the farmer. They pay their own shot on these things, plus having the concern that many of them have with a Minister like this. The security of that kind of a lea