Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLANO 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Wednesday, June 21, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 37

June 21, 1972 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 898 P. ·0 l - MRW . PETITIONS MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask leave of the House to present a rather unusual petition on behalf of the fishermen in Torbay who fish out of Tapper's Cove. The prayer of their petition, Mr. Speaker, is to ask the government to either secure markets for their catches of cod or work out a formula whereby the full-time fishermen in the area will be compensated for loss of earnings on a similar basis as farmers in certain parts of Canada and the United States .. .:e paid for not farming. Mr.

Speaker, I wholeheartedly support this petition. The honourable members of the House know that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states: "Every person is entitled to a decent living," These people, Sir, are being discriminated against despite their hard work and their determination to eam a living for themselves and their families. I ask, Mr. Speaker, that this unique petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to whatever department it relates. MR.

SPEAKER: I would like to say that I think this is quite out of order in presenting a petition and I would ask the honourable member to remove the object from the honourable House immediately. MR . NEARY: Thank you Mr. Speaker. HON. J. c. CROSBIE (Minister of Finance): Mr, Speaker, I would like to make an announcement on behalf of the government. The members of the House will be pleased I am sure, Mr. Speaker, to hear that negotiations have been concluded between the negotiating committee of NAPE, representing employees 2840

J ,1nP. :>.1, !972 Hr , Crosbie. Tape no. 898 Page 2 in various open-vote classifications in the public service, particularly the Department of Highways and the negotiating committee representing Tn~astiry Board. The items agreed to in the negotiations have been ratified by a majority of the employees in the bargaining unit. The detailed collective agreement is not yet ready for signature but the matter of prime concern to the employees at the moment is the implementation of a negotiated reduction in the hours of work.

It, was agreed in the negotiations that every effort will be made to expedite the introduction of the forty hour week after the agreement had been ratified, The government today, Mr. Speaker, have agreed to the institution of a for.ty hour week for open vote employees in the Department of Highways and I think there may be some in Public Works, to commence next Monday, June 26 . The work week will be reduced from forty-five hours a week to forty without any reduction in pay for those employees. I think there are about J.500 that will be concerned in the matter.

The other provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement will be included in the detailed agreement when that is ready and drafted 1which may take several weeks. The government have approved the entering into the agreement covering the x1orking hours so that that wil1 come into effect this coming Monday. Mr. Speaker, as honourable members of the House know, this has been a big point of contention with many of these highway workers, From next Monday then there will be a forty hour week without any reduction in pay.

They will also receive the normal five per cent increment that all civil servants are receiving this year. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, from our side, of course, we welcome this. As the mini•ter said this has been a long-standing matter. I think the first steps towards resolution were taken last fall but it has taken a while to work out the details. I am very glad now that they are being worked out. I may say that our surprise is somewhat the less because I read in the newspapers last week that it had been ratified. I assll'.lle that that was ratification by the employees side of the relationship 2641

June 21, 1972 Mr. Roberts Tape no. 898 Page 3 and what the minister is now telling us is that the government have also ratified (whatever the correct phrase is) or agreed to this and as of M<..,1day coming it will be implemented. I wonder if the ' minister co.uld give us sO!M: indic.ation, M11. Speaker, of what the cost of this will be? From a rough guesa • I would say that it would be about one-ninths of the amount paid on open-vot.e salaries, or will there be a reduct.ion in the total number of man hours worked in the province this summer? 2842

June 21, 1972, Tape 899, Page 1 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: Insofar as the cost is concerned, Mr. Speaker, it will be within the amount provided for in the estimates, then the employees concerned will get the increment of five percent but no further increase,

whereas the employees not affected by the forty-five hour - who were not on the forty-five hours,are going to get five percent plus an additional four percent that is being negotiated. MR. ROBERTS: I did not make the question clear I fear, !fr. Speaker, if I may try again. The men will now get the same amount for forty hours that they would have gotten for forty-five, and in addition they will get the incremental payment of five percent,which is very handsome.

Now, if we are to have done on our roads in the province thi~ summer, the same man hours of work as last year, obviously we will require more men or more hours. MR. CROSBIE: Right. MR. ROBERTS: And thus more cost. I am wondering if the minister could tell us whether there will be an additional cost or whether there will be a reduction of the number of man hours worked? I guess another way to put it, will there be more people hired because it will take nine men now to do what eight men did formerly1 I think my mathematics are correct.

Yes, there would have to be some additional people hired because of the reduction of the work week. MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: There will be no reduction ln the amount of work to be done? No. HON. E.MAYNARD (MINISTER 0~ LABOUR): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of the House to table the breakdown under the Highways Heading9i as stated in session last night during the estimates. This is the breakdown of projects to be carried out this year under Heading 1711-01-02 and 08. There are copies for all members of the House. MR. H.COLLINS (MINISTER OF HUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make an announcement on behalf of the government with 2643

June 21, 1972, Tape 899, Page 2 -- apb regard to the St. John's Housing Corporation. Mr. Francis J.O'Leary has been appointed Chairman of the Corporation. Mr. Alec G.Henley has been appointed deputy chairman, Mr. Claude E.Dawe a member, Mr. A.B.Butt a member and.the previous members, the Mayor of St. John's, Mr. Adams, Mr. Eric Mercer, the City Engineer, Mr. S.J.Hefferton, the hon. T.P.Hickey and myself remain as members. Mr.

Speaker, there will be an opportunity on the debates of the minister's estimates to discuss the merits of these appointments which have been well heralded in advance, at least the political ones. I wonder thour;h if the minister could tell the House, Sir, what if any salary is to be paid to Mr. O'Leary, Mr. Dawe, Mr. Butt and Mr. Henley? I am particularly interested in what if any salary is to be paid to Mr. O'Leary as chairman of it. Is this to be a full time job? If not, what is the salary? If so what is the salary? }'R. COLLINS: The salary to Mr. O'Leary, Mr.

Speaker, is $10,000 and he has decided to give this job almost undivided attention. The remaining members,other than ministers, will receive thrity-five dollars per board meeting. MR. ROBERTS: Thirty-five dollars per board meeting and a pay-off to O'Leary. MR. SPEAKER: -------- Are there any other reports of Standing or Select Committees? MOTIONS: HON. T.A.HICKMAN (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill entitled, ''An Act Further To Amend The Judicature Act.•· MR. MAYNARD : Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Restrictinr; The Termination Of Employment Of Substantial Numbers Of Persons In Certain Industries.•· MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tommorow I will ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Respecting Tenancies Of Residential Premises." 2b44 ...... r •

Juue 21 , 1972 , Tape 899, Pa~e 3 -- apb ORDERS OF THE DAY: !'~-'.-!.:.!:..ROHR_:_ Hr . Snea kt' r, I would like to address a questio n to the 'Minis t er of F.duca t ion. Is it a fact that a f ederal - Provincial pro~ramme for the training of workers for anticipated oil industry in the Atlantic Canada, and a new agreement on adult vocational t rainin(I has been outlined by the Minister of Education for Nova

June 21, 1972, Tape 900, Page 1 -- apb Scotia. And in view of the fact that an agreement has been workeu out to develop a regional approach to training that includes the Atlantic PrQvinces,and of course that would include Newfoundland, can the Minister of Education infonn the House as to what part Newfoundland has had to play so far in the development of this particular progr8l1111le? Also, Sir, what part Newfoundland will play in the implementation of the new training programme? !!_Q_N. J.A.CARTER (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker, that is a very important question that the hon. member for St.

Barbe North has addressed to me. I would like to take it as notice and I would prefer if he would put it on the Order Paper. Once it does appear on the Order Paper, I will make certain to have as comprehensive an dnswer as possible drafted in reply. MR. ROWE: A supplementary question to that.

Does the hon, minister realize that Nova Scotia is to take the overall responsibility for developing the training arrangements, and that because of the competition that we normally see between the - amongst the Atlantic Provinces, does the minister think that there may be a possibili~y that the Province of Nova Scotia may be in a position to benefit from this programme to the disadvantage or detriment of the Province of Newfoundland? MR. CARTER: I can only say, Mr. Speaker, at this time, that the faster the hon. gentleman puts that question on the Order Paper, the faster I will have the answers supplied to him.

MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. In view of the fact that the previous administration had allotted to the university one hundred and thirty fellowships for the past year, is it true that to this date there are only sixteen fellowships that have been granted? Is it also true, that the Minister of Finance ordered 1 shortly after taking office, that the remainder of the fellowships be discontinued? MR. CROSBIE: ------ Mr. Speaker, with respect to the latter part of the

June 21, 1972, Tape 900, Page 2 -- apb question, that is completely untrue. Not an iota of truth, not a jot of truth, not a tittle of truth, not a teensie~weensie bit of truth in the latter part of the statement. As to whether only sixteen fellowships have been granted, I do not know as I never checked on it but I will check on it for the hon. member; MR. THOMS: Thank you. ~- F.W.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Finance.

Does the Minister of Fiance realize that there are at least fifty-nine graduate students who have been recommended for graduate fellowships, who will not now receive them because of the new policy that he has announceu? MR. CROSBIE: No. MR. F.ROWE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister of Finance undertake to investigate this matter, because it is my understanding that there are fifty-nine students who were recommended for these fellowships and will not now get them, So, would the Minister of Finance undertake to investigate this particular •situation? MR. CROSBIE: Definitely. MR. F.ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Minister of Finnace. Does the Minister of Fina~ce realize as well that there are a number of teachers in this province who resigned their teaching positions this year in order to attend ••• MR. MARSHALL: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. That is not a question, that is a statement under guise of being a question, and for that reason it is out of order. If the hon. member wants to ask a question, let him ask it, but he should not prefix it by statements of facts and assumptions that may or may not be true. If he wants to ask a question as I say ••• MR. W.N.ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, to the point of order, can I speak to the point of order? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member should perhaps rephrase his question. 2847

June 21, 1972, Tape 900, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Would Your Honour hear the argument before he rules? MR. W.N.ROWE: Ordinarily ••. MR • SPEAKER: (First

part inaudible) the ruling I guess. MR. ROBERTS: Well, all r!ght. In the fut~re then, would Your Honour hear arguments before Your Honour makes a ruling. No, We will not debate the ruling, I accept that. MR. ROWE F.B. Mr. Speaker, you have ruled? AN HON. MEMBER: I guess it was. MR. F.B.ROWE: ~tr. Speaker, I am asking the honourable Minister of Finance whether he realizes that a number of teachers have resigned their teaching positions in order to attend university next year to pur3ue graduate studies? They were counting on getting these graduate fellowships.

Sir, now they do not know what to do, they have resigned their jobs and they will not get this $2,500.00 that they were counting on . MR. CROSBIE~ ------- On a point of order. This is not a Question, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is making a speech and we have already had five days of speeches on the education estimates, SO}'E HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) Order please! MR. SPEAKER: ~. ROBERTS: To the point of order, the hon. Minister of Finance I submit is wrong. The hon. member for St. Barbe North is asking the question,whether the Minister of Finance realizes that a certain situation exists.

Obviously, in asking it the member must describe 2648 ... f,

June 21, 1972 Tape 901 briefly and succinctly,as I submit he has done in the situation. Now t he minister either realizes it or he does not. If he does, fine. If he does not then that is it but the point of order I submit is specious. I think the question is quite in order, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Again I would like to remind all honourable members that their questions should not drag into speeches. They should be short and to the point. If members insist on making speeches in their questions,! shall have to rule them out of order. MR. ROWE(F'._!'1~): A question for the Minister of Finance.

Can the Minister of Finance tell me briefly why the fellowships were reduced in the first place? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the question is not in order. It is a complete abuse of the question period and this whole matter has been discussed for five days. The brief answer is because there is not enough money to do everything that needs to be done because of the reckless and wasteful extravagence of the honourable gentleman's party when they were in power for the last twenty-three years. MR. ROWE(F.W.)_: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROWE(F.W.): A point of order. MR.

CROSBIEr That is an answer to your question. MR. ROWE(F.W.): Some answer. That is a beautiful answer. MA· CROSBIE: That was a beautiful question, a simple-minded question. MR. WINSOR: Before you go into orders of the day, Sir, may I direct a question to the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Has he received a request from the conununity council at Carmanville for assistance to provide some oil to oil the streets through Carmanville? MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we have received numerous requests from different munic1palities across the province for water and sewer systems.

I had hoped that when my estimates come before the House JM - 1

June 21, 1972 Tape 901 ,JM - 2 maybe that is the appropriate time to deal with it. MR. WINSOR: Perhaps the honourable minister misundersto~d my ~uestion. I ask if any assistance had been requested for oil to oil the street through Carmanville. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I would sug~est that that question be directed to the Minister of Highways. MR. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, could I direct a question to the honourable Minister of Labour.

The minister informed the House last week that the early part of this week he would indicate to the House whether or not the government would set up an industrial enquiry to look into the safety and health hazards at the phosphorus plant at Long Harbour. !his is mid-week, Mr. Speaker, and I am wondering if the minister could tell us whether the government has taken a decision on this matter. MR. MAYNARD: No, Mr. Speaker, no decision has been made, for a couple of reasons.

Number one I talked to both the company and union officials in separate meetings and the union has indicated to me that they have ask for an industrial enquiry commission related to the last accident or since the last accident at the ERCO plant. They did not indicate to me in the meeting, . that they were too much concerned whether they had a commission or not. The union and company officials however have agreed to a giant meeting with the Department of Labour officials and safety and health officials on the 29 of June. I assume that I will be able to report some progress after that meeting is over. MR.

NEARY: I would like to direct another question to the honourable Minister of Labour. l?ould the minister indicate to the House whether or not his department has representatives in Western Labrador in the event that his department may be called upon to try and resolve the confrontation between the mining companies and the steel workers who are now on strike in the area? MR. MAYNARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we do have representatives in Labrador C:· ( i'·' 0 ~u iJ ·-

J une 21, 19 72 Tap e 901 JM - 3 or in the Labrador area. I believe today that he may be in Seven Islands but he is available for that area. On that particular subjeet,if t may, Mr. Speaker, t would like to point out that this particular man has spent the last two months in Labrador with the exception of some five or six days and has been all that time involved with conciliation work with both the tron Ore Company of Canada and Wabush Mines. These conciliation procedures were carried out giantly with the conciliation officer from Quebec and the conciliation officer from the Federal Government. MR.

ROWE_(F.W.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education. ts there any truth to the -report in today's news that a ladies application for a teaching position ha.s been refused because she would not sign a line to reveal what religious denomination she belonged to? MR. CARTER: M-r. Speaker, I have not yet had an opportunity to read this morning's "Daily t'ews" and neither have t received any word of the situation which the honourable member for St. Barbe North relates. If the honourable member for St.

Barbe North would provide me with such information I would be more than happy to look at it and then comment. But at the moment 26-51

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 902 NC - l I know no more about it than I did five days ago. I have not heard any word, whisper or hint or talk of any such thing but I would be more than happy to look at any such situation. MR. ROWE (F,W,): Would the minister be kind'enough to investigate this particular situation and supply us with the information? MR. SEEAKER: I would like to remind the hon, member that I do not think it is in order to ask a minister whether a statement in a newspaper is correct or not and I assmne the same thing applies to radio stations. On motion that the House go into Committee of Supply, Mr.

Speaker left the Chair. MR. ROBERTS: (1015-06-05) Mr. Chairman, when the Committee rose last evening, we were just about to begin on this item and as this is the gist to the Government of Newfoundland.of Medicare, as 1 understand it, unless the format has been changed completely, that is the net cost to this province of the Medicare scheme. This is the only opportunity where the Co111111ittee can discuss Medicare,as 1 understand it. There were one or two things 1 wanted to say. First of all I would ask the minister, Mr. Chairman, why the amount is down from about $3.2 million last year to $1.9 million th1s year.

Last -· year, as I understand it, the revised cost that I had was $2,4 million, I see it has gone up to $3.2 and these are the revised figures ••• No, I am sorry, the revised figures were $2 million Sir, the net cost, and it seems to have gone up to $2.4. I may be misreading the figures but could the minister tell us, Mr. Chairman, whether the $3.2 million,which Medicare did actually cost the province last year, was a significant c~ange from the forecast estimated by the officials at the time I was minister? I guess that is the first question. &"!· ,- ~· 2· ~u;; ....

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 902 NC - 2 ~R. ROBERTS: I would also be interested to hear him say why it is ,,r.opped to $1.9 million this year, Now as Jour Honour is intimately familiar, the grant that is paid by the ~vernment of Canada to the ~overnment of this province, the Government of Newfoundland, to enable that government to finance_the medical care scheme is not related directly to the payments that we make. It is paid to us on a basis of the average per capita cost in the participating provinces.

I believe that all provinces are now participating and as Newfoundland makes up about 2.5% of the population of Canada, any expenditures we make are obviously insignificant. Now if the net cost to Newfoundland is dropping and the net cost to Newfoundland, Mr. Chairman, is the difference between what Ottawa gives us and what the scheme costs, then it could only mean that our per capita cost is not rising as quickly as the national per capita cost, Now on one hand we can welcome that, Sir. The Minister of Finance would welcome it and rightly so because it me.ans the cost to the treasury of the province is less.

Indeed if this keeps up, if this is a trend and that trend continues, we are only a couple of years away from the point where the province is actually making money on Medicare in a sense that the money that would come from Ottawa on the per capita grants is actually greater than the expenditure by this province on the medical care plan. Now I am somewhat at sea, because in years past there was printed in the estimates, sometimes as an appendix and sometimes in the actual estimates themselves, a budget of·medicare,showing what

June 21. 1972. Tape 903 Page 1. was to be stacked, totalled, I do not see the information this year. The minister has apparently ordered it to be removed. I wonder if he could tell - I am not saying the minister has scood up in his desk in the department and ordered, you know ordered that it be removed. But the minister brings in the estimates he must take the responsibility for them. No way is there any indication what the people of Newfoundland will spend next year on the medical care scheme. I imagine it is the order of fourteen or fifteen o~ even more million dollars.

We should have that information I think, Sir. I would like to know why it is dropping, why the cost is dropping to the province. Does that mean that our per capita cost is not escalating anywhere near as rapidly as the national per capita cost? If that is so, is that an indication that we are falling behind in the effort to provide the people of this province with something approaching adequa;e medical services ?

One of the reasons why our doctors incomes are so high.and they are high- the minister said so last night and everybody who has ever looked at the matter knows they are high- one of the reasons they are high is that we have so few doctors per population. I suppose the technical term is the doctor patient ratio. Our doctor patient rario·is inadequate on a provincial basis. I understand in parts of the province it is quite adequate, here in St.

John's and so forth 1where apparently it, according to the national average 1 is adequately doctored But certainly in the rural areas of the province the doctor per patient ratio is quite scandalously high. I think the minister mentioned one place where it is one to 5,000. My guess is that that varies. There must be other parts of the ....

June 21, 1972. Tape 903 Page 2. province, Buchana was it? I was going to say there are other parts including Buchans, St. Mary's was always one of the chief sore spots in - I believe the only doctor is Dr. Seide­ l forget the gentleman's name and he serves a large area. So the minister may be able to tell us a little about that. There is precious little information about the medicare scheme. I wonder also if the minister could expand somewhat on his remarks last evening with respect to the proration business. I agree with him that prorations are not the answer to all the prayers of this world.

They produce the saving ' of about $250,000 last year. Not to be sneezed at but as the minister said it is about two per cent of the total expenditure. It is less than two per cent, it could be one and a half per cent. It is two-fifty,on the figures the minister tabled. There were three categories, the cutters, the non-cutters and the - In any event it is not a large amount of money_. That was not the reason prorations were brought in.

AN.HON.MEMBER: Slashers MR.ROBERTS: There are no slashers, there are cutters and non-cutters There are cutting specialists and non-cutting specialists, just as there are cutting remarks and non-cutting remarks. They were brought in as an emergency or as a measure that was taken in lieu of any other measure that anybody can think of. The interesting thing is that after a year and a lot of work by the medical association, by the medicare commission and I have no doubt by the minister himsel~ no one has been able to find a better solution. I would like the minister to tell us,Mr.

Chairman, along what lines he can see a solution emerging. Are we going to have a new fee schedule? There were reports in the press,from Corner Brook,the N.M.A. Convention·,there would be one. If so,will it be the same 2605

June 21, 1972. Tape 903 Page 3. as before with merely increases in the individual items. Will it cost more money to the province? Will it solve the rual-distribution which I think all concerned will admit there is within the profession. We have not asked the minister this year. We will next, for a list showing the famous two specialists,but I think the list which was tabled last year and the report of the commission that was tabled not too long ago by the minister both show that there are grave inequities. The internists I believe are very low, relatively speaking.

If you can call fifty or sixty thousand dollars a year as a gross payment low, but, low relative to the, some of tie cutting specialists in particular. I am not speaking of the one of a kind, E.E.N.T and the plastic surgeons but some of the surgeons tend to go very high and so forth. Well are those inequities to be corrected in a new fee schedule? I would like the minister to give us a little more information on the whole m~tter. Just to recapitulate,! would also like him to tell us a little about the medicare scheme. We do not need to go into the scheme, I think every member of the House is familiar.

It has been in operation now for three years. The doctors have made it .work, It has worked very well, It has had problems and still does. But perhaps he could say a few words on the cost, what it is going to cost this year. Why, the grant, the net cost is down S1.3 millions to the province. Does that mean that the national capita cost is climbing ever faster than ours or what? do not know what it means. It must ~ean something. I 26~6

June 21, 1972 Tape 904 PK-1 MR. ROBERTS: Perhaps the minister could tell us, I guess he can only tell us if I sit down,which I will now do. DR. ROWE: The honourable Leader of the Opposition is in almost complete knowledge of the Baxter Guardian Embassy Fee up ~til relatively recently. To come back first of all to the figure of $3.189 million last year to $1.9 million this year, this is a change in the accounting format and that accounts for the difference. I understand that the detailed budget of M.C.P. was the estimates in only one year 1at the request of the previous Minister of Health, when it was taken out.

MR. ROBERTS: Will it be tabled again now? DR. ROWE: We will table the annual report of M.C.P. - MR. ROBERTS: Would the minister table it now for the committee? DR.ROWE: The information? MR. ROBERTS: Yes. DR. ROWE: I can read you a considerable amount of information on the whole financial setup of medicare at this time. MR. ROBERTS: What I am interested in is what is going to be spent on fee for service this year and what is coming from Ottawa that sort of thing? What it amounts to is a balance sheet. This is not a balance sheet. It was printed as an appendix one year, I know1 I had it done. Dk.

ROWE: The total expenditure of the Newfoundland Medicare Commission in 1971-1972 estimates, the administration cost was $16 million compared with $14 million in 1970-1971. MR·. ROBERTS: What is estimated ne;ct year on that? DR. ROWE: The average gross payments for servi~e doctors, which has already been tabled 1 after the p~tation,was $49,000 that is compared with $51,000 in the previous year. The total amount withheld due to proration, which you asked me to comment on, was $240,755. MR. ROBERTS: That is in round numbers. 9 b·· r" '7 ,.. -.;

June 21, 1972 Tape 904 P· - 2 DR. ROWE: Presently the percentage is about $250,000 or about two percent of the total. The cost next year, I have not got the exact figure in front of me, but we estimate something similar. Certainly the costs in Newfoundland are not going down? certainly the national costs are not going down.

But the point that I would like to make is,at the NMA Convention in Corner Brook, I made a statement on behalf of government, as far as policy was concerned, and this was to the effect that at the present time no consideration will be given to an increased in fees to the medical profession while our present financial crisis is upon us, There are two points to be remembered (1) is that there will be an increase for those who have not been treated fairly in the time that medicare has been in operation.

Their income is based on their time hours and their skills and their training which is a very skilled speciality at the present time. It has not been awarded in the same way that other categories of the profession have been rewarded and they, therefore, will get an increase,the amount of tax being worked out, As far as the remainder are concerned, what I have said to the NMA is that we can take the globalbudget and if we can get a slight decrease in one category, we are prepared to make an increase in another category.

In other words, we are not increasing the total cost of medicare but what we are prepared to do is, if some segments of the profession will take a slight cut-back,we can push certain other relatively low segments up. We are working on this at the present time. MR, ROBERTS: I wish the minister well, but DR, ROWE: Thank you very much. So there is no vast change in the costs of medicare since last year.

June 21, 1972 Tape 904 PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: Would the minister then, Mr. Chairman, get perhaps this afternoon for us the total expenditure that the government estimate will be made by the Medical Care Commission this year. I would have thought that it would be up over last year maybe $1 million or $2 million.

Secondly, would the minister also get the amount comparable to the $3,2 million because if they have changed the accounting then I am lost and I suspect I know as much as most members of the House, except possibly some of the ministers,about this and I suggest then we are all lost,If it cost $3.2 million last year, what would it cost on a comparable basis this year? One of the basic principles in accounting, of course, is present your data in a way comparable from year to year. Perhaps the minister could ask the relevant officials to dig that up? DR.

ROWE: There are people waiting in the wings who were scratching previously MR. ROBERTS: I can imagine that too, Mr. Chairman, again that is another of the good things that the minister has inherited from his predecessor. DR. ROWE: We shall now pass on to another item, You mentioned the question of the doctor-patient ratio, Aguathuna for instance, one doctor for 5,800 people. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible, MR. ROBERTS: Well at the present time, we are hoping so, but at the time when you go down you get Bishop's Falls one doctor for 4;00 people. Well that is ~500 people more really than a good working load.

You can go right through, as I am sure you have seen the figures before,Carmanville one doctor for ~000 people, through the whole list of areas and I am interested in Buchana again, because the doctor shortage is considerable. If we could have twice the number of doctors in the province now and I would exclude the urban centres such as St. John's, Corner Brook, probably Grand Falls, twice the

June 21, 1972 Tape 904 PY - 4 DR. ROWE: nlDDber of doctors elsewhere in the province would give us a reasonbly goo1 coverage, but one does not see that for many years to come, We have to accept the ,fact that doctors in these areas that are of a high population,low doctor staff,will have extra incomes under the fee for service scale and this has to be anticipated. MR . ROBERTS: Inaudible. DR. ROWE: Pardon me? Well they are very hard workers and one has to - well they are very good under the fee for service. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, yes, but some of the boys here in St. John's - DR.

ROWE: Well this was always called the"' Holy Crosf!" MR. ROBERTS: By people from Corner Brook. DR. ROWE: Those who wish to practice outside of St. John's felt. There cl .. 1,_ ..._ was a certain degree of prestige perhaps to be a St. John's practitioner, while I am sure the outport doctors such as myself were quite happy to put ourselves on the line with the amount of work that is done, MR. ROBERTS: What I said, there are many high earners in St. John's, indeed if there are offenders they would be in St. John's. DR. ROWE:There are a few offenders outside of St, John's as well. MR. ROBERTS: Very much so.

Very much so, .It may frighten the Premier to know that there are doctors getting $150,000 and $160,000 a year in general practice, DR. ROWE: But it might interest him to know already that one doctor will take calls for eight or nine doctors on a weekend and how can you - MR. ROBERTS: How many hours a week can a man work before his efficiency goes! DR. ROWE: Well this is the point,~ Well it is Sundays like this that makes doetors decide they want to get away with their families ~660

June 21, 1972 Tape 904 PK - 5 DR. ROWE: and one doctor will take all of their calls. I think in some ways he has to be admired for the amount of work that he did. MR . ROBERTS: Very much so, but then the question is can one doctor do the work as well as he should? DR. ROWE: Well this is a question, How do you decide? MR. ROBERTS: If the minister is sick, he wants to be the ~ighth patient on the list. DR. ROWE: Well I may some times be very glad to have that one person if he is the only person that is there. Does that satisfy the question M.C.P, and proration? MR. ROBERTS: I think so, Mr.

Chairman, we could go on at some length but I think it will probably have to wait until the NMA and the government come to some sort of an agreement, whatever they do. I think the important thing is that the minister's statement 1 that if there are changes in the fee

schedule that he has set for the present - but that could mean,you know,tomorrow or we will take it at least it means a year, at least the current financial year 1 it is the matter of the same size pie,and the doctor - DR. ROWE: I did emphasize ,at the moment we are working on the g1obal changes within the global budget. MR. ROBERTS: Right. In other words the same size pie, th~ same total expenditure and if the minister at some point, well when the information will be sent into him 1in a minute. I notice we are using orange slips today instead of blue slips.

June 21, 1972 Tape 905 JM - 1 DR. ROWE: Is there some comment on the fact that he spotted the blue papers? MR. ROBERTS: Well, the honourable gentleman's officials should have known and doubtless did know that I would spot the papers, I used to see a great number of them. In any event, Mr. Chainnan, the important thing is that the doctors of the province will have the same size pie to divide up when it comes to the medic are budget. They may divide it differently and I wish the minister well. DR. ROWE: At the present time. MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, at the present time,which means at least a year. ~.!h_ROl~: It could well be. MR. ROBERTS: I mean we are not going to say tomorrow,all of a sudden .. he pie gets bigger are we? We are talking about the current financial year. Next year well anything may happen next year. DR. ROWE: I explained this in some detail at the convention. MR. ROBERTS : Yes, but I was not at the N.M.A. Convention. I am not a member of it. DR. ROWE~ You seem to be well knowledgeable about it. MR. ROBERTS: I am very knowledgeable but my source from the N.M.A.

Convention has gone to San Francisco and Idaho so I am not as well informed. One other question and it will be stretching medicare but since I did not ask it on community ambulances. Are we going to get an ambulance in Englee? How is that for going right down to the heart of the principle. DR. ROWE: We have provided sixteen and there are five applications as at the moment for this year to be processed. It is on one of these. MR. ROBERTS: Five out of sixteen. DR. ROWE: We do not have five out of sixteen. We have five - AN HON. MEMBER: Happy Valley. DR. ROWE: five.

Happy Valley is one of the five~and Englee is one of the .... ., ..

June 21, 1972 Tape 905 MR. ROBERTS: How much money do we have? $50,000 will buy a lot of ambulances. DR. ROWE: Well also you have to remember the $12,000 that we give. So we are establishing a list out of the five at the moment who will be receiving the ambulances. MR. ROBERTS: There are going to be five given this year, are there? DR. ROWE: There will certainly be three. MR. ROBERTS : Three. JM - 2 DR. ROWE: We have five applications and there will certainly be three. There may be five and three out of five is not bad. We have five applications and we are go.ing to give at least three, MR.

ROBERTS: The member for Burgeo is two out of six and that is not bad. He is not here. Thank you. I will pursue it another time, Mr. Chairman. The minist~r named Happy Valley and Englee, what are the other three? DR. ROWE: Where we have received the applications from? Glovertown, I will give you this as soon as I can find it in this book. MR, ROBERTS: (Inaudible) • DR. ROWE: I promised you I would give it to you when I find it. If you would like to carry on in the meantime,as I have a volume of notes here. On motion, sub-head 1015, carried. MR. ROBERTS: Are there any postings here in dental health? DR.

ROWE: Well, the problem is getting the dentists. I mean there are sixteen part-time government dentists out of the total dental population in the province. If we stick to the same . number of dentists this vote will be sufficient. If we can get more dentists we will have to consider .more money. MR. ROBERTS: Any prospect of more?• Any coming out of Dalhousie this year? 26J3

June 21, 1972 Tape 905 DR. ROWE: Hopefully. I think you are aware of the fact that there is some problem with bringing English dentists into this province because of the examinations on this side but there is an arrangement whereby they can come in and work under supervision as is done in the IGA. What we are trying to work out with the Dental Association is that we bring them out and put them in certain areas where we really desperately need dentists,and they are inclined to co-operate. We are now trying to work out a formula for this but how many we can get this year I do not know. MR.

ROBERTS: Any hope, this is a perennial question which all oppositions ask on mobile dental clinics. Now I know the answer, ~iuat the minister is going to say. JM - 3 DR. ROWE: ··---- We are considering this and all we are doing at the moment is talking and getting figures and doing investigations. The same way I mentioned last night about the mobile clinic for the Bird Cove area, we are trying to get costs on setting up a mobile clinic to serve up and down that coast, the same thing applies. On motion, sub-·head 1017, carried. MR. RO~RTS: Any new immunization programmes this year? Are there any new ones? DR.

ROWE: We are carrying on with the other ones. There is a bit of an upheaval about smallpox vaccination,of which you are aware. Recently it was made noncompulsory and now there is the question of bringing it back again although the interesting point is that in certain countries the death from smallpox vaccination have been greater than the deaths from smallpox. On motion, sub-head 1031, carried. MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the honourable minister a question? Within my district and I realize possibly in other.sections of Newfoundland we have islands where we have people and in my district we have two

June 21, 1972 Tape 905 JM - 4 islands which a·re completely isolated during at least three months of every winter and they were completely isolated one island in particular, St. Brendan's,for five months of this winter and they were without medical services of any kind with the exception of a doctor visiting in St. Brendan's I believe once a month and a nurse perio~ically, I am not sure how often, in Greenspond.

I wonder if the minister would give anv thought or consideration to the idea of at least stationing a nurse on a part-time basis during the winter months in these locations and there may be many more through­ out the island? DR. ROWE: The honourable member might be very happy to know that only yesterday the assistant deputy minister visited St. Brendan's and officially opened a clinic there. As far as nurses are concerned, Sir , I will be very happy. There are many areas,if we can get the personnel to go there we have the money to pay them. The question is if you can get me the body, the person to go there.

We are trying to recruit public health nurses all the time and as I mentioned last night I think a long range answer to this might be in encouraging males to go into nursing so as we can get some stability,as we talked about last night. The only problem is one of personnel. We are quite happy to put a nurse there if we can find someone who will go there and stay there. J1R. THOMS : (Inaudible). DR~ ROWE: We had a campaign last year, a Gross Advertising Campaign for public health nurses and what did we get? Five. MR. NEARY: Pay the honourable member's expenses over to England. MR.

ROBERTS: On the public health nursing business, this is one of the everlasting questions. Has any thought been given by the minister to the business of trying to train a category nurse? The problem is we have always looked to England particularly for the midwife nurses

June 21, 1972 Tape 905 and certainly in my district and in St. Barbe North and in Labrador North, Labrador South and in parts of St. Barbe South, certainly the northern parts the Hawkes Bay-Port Saunders Area,the midwife nurse is the direct front-line delivery. Now the interesting thing is that this has been worked out by the IGA over fifty or sixty years by necessity and the advanced medical thinking in Canada is more and more moving towards this now again out of necessity,but coming full circle.

JM - 5 Has any thought been given to trying to develop a new category a little less than our present public health nurses or a little more than a public health nurse and a little less than a midwife nurse? ,;: .. ROWE: There is a programme going on at Dalhousie University hut unfortunately this course,which by the way got considerable input from Dr. Paton who was very knowledp,eable on the type of training required but,unfortunately,the course is about two years and this is a little too long. So in fact the CMA are investigating this business.

You are talking about the physician associate or the nurse assistant, the nurse practitioner, trying to work out details of how these people can fit into the whole makeup of the picture. It is very definitely being looked at. On motion, sub-head 1032, carried. MF .• WINSOR: 1033(01): Mr. Chairman, is this the place to ask the honourable minister the question. Last year I believe was the first year that 2686

June 21, 1972 Tape no. 906 Page 1 - MRW the motor vessel, "Christmas Seal" was not operating. How is that working out now? It was being done by x-ray rolling vehicles 1 except I think in Labrador, In Northern Labrador it is still carried on by the motor vessel or the hospital ship the "Strathcona II." Are we getting as good a result now or better than when the motor vessel the "Christmas Seal" was operating? DR.

ROWE: I think the member could rea l ize that back when the "Christmas Seal" started operations about in the late 1940's, practically any where you went in the province, you could pick up cases of tuberculosis. With the tremendous improvements and communications, the hospital services and x-ray, it has been found that in the last few years the mass surveys, by virtue of the boat, were not really warranted.

There were so few places that the mobile clinic could not get to and the fact that you did so many thousands of x-rays, without getting one positive person, Not only in Newfoundland but in the whole of North America the question of mass x-ray surveys has now become very much a very small operation.

I think the answer to your question is that in most areas now hospital with x-rays are available, where there are roads and mobile clinics available and the work of the "Christmas Seal" tremendous as it has been down through the years, has reached the point where it is not economically feasible and from the point of view of the diagnostic results, the survey was not wise to continue. MR. WINSOR: I think that the service should be better than with the previous arrangement. BR. ROWE: It would be better to have it continue to operate the - MR. WINSOR: No, I say the present is - DR. ROWE: I would think so. MR.

WOODWARD: Mr. Chairman, before we move on I would like to ask the honourable minister,seeing that the mobile clinics or the x-ray are going into communities where they have roads (I am thinking in terms of the number of cases of tuberculosis thatwere on the Labrador Coast, 26G't

June 21, 1972 Mr.

Woodward Tape no, 906 Pag:~ 2- particularly in the norther communities and the Eskimo areas and now that we have discontinued or I understand that the services have been discontinued as far ,as the "Christmas Seal" is concerned and I doubt very seriously if the mobile clincis that have been travelling around the province can travel over water and get into those areas) I wonder if the honourable minister would take into consideration to see that there is still a prograame continued, I think these are the most vunerable areas in the north, I am sure that he has talked with the Grenfell Mission officials about this.

We would not lik.etx> see the service discon .tinued. There are still a number of tuberculosis cases coming from the Eskimo colDlllunity. DR. ROWE: Dr. Paddon runs still a tuberculosis laboratory and dispensary, North West River. He is very aware of the problem within Labrador and is keeping his x-ray services relatively busy and continuing to get people x-rayed. I am quite happy about the fact that Dr. Padden has been there for many years. He is well aware of the problems and is continuing his specific interest in this particular disease. MR. ROBERTS: _!)R, ROWE: On motion total subhead 1033, carried.

Why the large - We have increased the number -of public health inspectors by about seven at the moment. There is an escalation as well in the overall civil service cost. MR, ROBERTS: Any plans to open any new officers. - judicial 1ministerial, prerogative? DR. ROWE: We have requests for certain areas on the south coast who feel they have been neglected as far as the - they are served at Corner Brook • .lfR, ROBERTS: Where is that? DR. ROWE: They are anxious to have one established at - MR. ROBERTS: Not where is Corner Brook, DR. ROWE:1.. I think Burgeo is one particular place, ..

June 21, 1972 Tape no, 906 Page 3 MR. ROBERTS: Is the minister thinking of establishing an office in Burgeo? DR.ROWE: Thinking! Requests have only come relatively recently. I have not had time to work into the - MR. ROBERTS: Mich thought precedes action, I would assume. On motion 1034-01, carried, On motion total subhead 1034, carried, MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, 1035-01, we have an increase of about a third in salaries.

It is from $180,000 up to $257,000, DR, ROWE: If all the posts should fill we will be spending this amount of money -you notice there health, education, school health, industrial health, nutrition and audiology, speech therapy, laboratory, mental health and physical medicine, Well physical medicine money may be in but there is nobody available at the moment to utilize the funds, As to the question of the number of posts and the numbers that can be filled - MR. ROBERTS: Did the Treasury Board really leave the minister the extra money? DR. ROWE: Oh, I think we have access to the extra money, MR.

ROBERTS: The estimates are padded, There is no more hope of finding a physicist next year. DR. ROWE: Oh, I would not say that. We have had three or four physicists pass through here in the last several years, MR, ROBERTS: I know we have. DR. ROWE: The next one we get I am sure we will keep him. MR. ROBERTS: The problem is they pass through, I got.SO¢ that he comes and goes. On motion 1035-01 carried, On motion total subhead 1035 carried, On motion total subhead 1051, carried, MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, 1052-01, this is the salary vote for H,M,N.D. I do not propose to spend a long time on it.

What I have to say about this, I said in the budget speech, The minister has made

June 21, 1972 Tape no. 906 Page 4 some statements before or since and indeed I think in his opening statement, which by the way was reprinted almost verbatim in the evening paper - there was a handsome picture of the minister, It was very nicely done - I.nformation Newfoundland. • AN HON. MEMBER:(Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Is it not nicely donel The minister will take it home to his wife, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Hold on "the burp from Burgeo." Have at him boy: Ha·,e at him! It is too good to be true. It is too good to last. Mr.

Chairman, the only thing I would ask of the minister is if he could give the committee an explanation. The Minister of Finance in his budget speech and the Minister of Health subsequently both in the House and outside have said that the reason the Mental Hospital is not g?ing ahead, the new addition is not going ahead this year is that the money is not there and other priorities and all that. I do not propose to debate that. I think it is shameful. That is it, It has been well hashed over. What I want to ask the minister is what happened between April 17 and May 31 with respect to this?

On April 17, the minister according to a newspaper, "The Evening Telegram" of April 17 had said: "Tenders for the first phase of a 200 bed extension to the hospital for Mental and Nervous Disease in St. John's would be called after the budget is brought down in the House of Assembly." The Health Minister - it names the honourable minister said: "funds for the '\1 er extension are in the departmental estimates,and stated that a start on construction will be made this year." It goes on to give some details. That was the 17th. day of April, Sir. The newspaper report may be inaccurate.

They have known to be inaccurate before. The minister shakes his head, I suspect it is accurate. I will not press the minister on the point because I know what happened. I do not know in any harsh - 2b'70

June 21, 1972 Mr, Roberts. Tape no, 906 Page 5 I know what happened in the real sense of the word. If the minister wants to say anything about it - it is somewhat embarrassing I would think, Sir, when the 17th April the matter is placed in the estimates. The minister states it is in the estimates.

On the 31st. day of May, when the Minister of Finance brings in his budget and tables the estimates, the matter has been excised, I would like to know what happened between then.If the money were not available, surely a project this large or a matter this signficant,if the money were not available at the end of May,I would like to know · II.ow it was available in mid April.

Now as I have said both - I am in a sort of a charitable mood because it is a nice sunny afternoon and everything is going so well and becauseof all sorts of things - does the minister know that in England the Queen addresses everybody, all the peers of the realm,as cousins? Because I am speaking to my peers I am feeling very charitable and 2b'11

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 907 NC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: and all that. I will not press the minister because I suspect he is not to blame. I merely want to put it on the record and give him the opportunit! to make a coD111ent if he so wishes. DR. ROWE: I want to make a statement for the hon. Leader, First of all I was not misquoted and the information that I gave to the press to the effect that we are going to call for tenders on the Mental Hospital was indeed true and it was my hope at that time that the amount would be budgeted and that it would be in the estimates. However, in the interim, we had a meeting in Ottawa.

You will remember a number of ministers went to Ottawa on various matters concerned with the province and one of the questions which were posed to ti,e Minister of Health in Ottawa, the Federal Minister of Health,was the whole question of the state of the mental health services within the province.

As a result of this, without going into too much detail, it was decided as a result of the talks that we had, that special requests and briefs would be made and forwarded to the Federal Government who have , said they will look with great sympathy on the problem in Newfoundland with regard to a mental hospital, the facts of which are well known and that this brief has been so sent. I would add to this the fact that we were faced with a capital construction programme of upwards to $100 million. There were holes in the ground in each of the areas to which we were committed and these had to have the priority.

On the basis of, and I am not going to say promise, on the basis of the suggestion of the possible help from Ottawa, it was therefore decided that we would wait and see what came as a result of our negotiations with Ottawa on the question of an immediate start on the mental hospital. I trust that answers your question. MR. ROBERTS: We are certainly onto something very new. Ottawa have given money for capital funds since the old $2,000 per bed grant which was phased out a couple of years ago, there is the new health resources funds and 2872

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 907 NC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: so forth but I have never before heard of a programme by Ottawa to aid with capital constructior. of psychiatric facilities indeed they excluded them, and still do,from hospital insurance, except the ten per cent ratio in general hospitals. The minister said it was a hope but not a promise. DR.ROWE: I would like to be specific on that. Mil. ROBERTS: Yes that is what I am going to ask the hon. minister, if he could perhaps expand a little on it because I could be mistaken.

But I would be very surprised if I am not standing here one year from now without any assurance from the minister of any help from Ottawa on mental health, If it is to come,it is a break-through. Every province in Canada will be queuing up out in front of Hr. Monroe's office tomorrow. Help for capital construction in psychiatric facilities held, Help for any sort of construction,they ~ould queue let alone psychiatric. So I wonder if the minister could be a little more specific because this is an entirely new topic, DR.

ROWE: Well one of the things that came to our attention was the fact that up until now DREE had not made any specific decisions with regard to application for projects of this nature. This has been considered with Mr. Marchand and Mr. Monroe, so the basis of it is that it is possible that under this negotiation, that some DREF. funds may be available, This is the basis on which we a~e ••• Through the Federal Department of Health and Welfare and DREE we may, and I am not giving the word "promise" I am just saying that we are endeavouring to get funds through this channel. MR. ROWE (WM.): ~years perked up, Mr.

Chairman, when the hon. minister mentioned DREE in respect of capital construction for health services because unless the federal attitude and the federal plan indeed the federal law has been changed drastically in regard to these matters, then the hon. minister cannot look forward to any money from DREE for health services. 2b'73

June 21, 19 72 Tape No, 907 NC DR, ROWE: This was not the impression given us by the Assistant Deputy Minister. MR. ROWE: The reason I say that, Mr, Chairman, is because . the dep~rtment, DREE, was set ·up to help as far as infrastructure was concerned, that terrible word for public services of a capital nature, As far as infrastructure is concerned, DREE was adamant that it was not going to divert any of its funds into programmes under which there were already joint federal-provincial programmes 3 like Health, like Memorial University for example, and this sort of thing.

They would help where the primary, indeed probably the only responsibility was a provincial one like in road construction, municipal services, schools and this sort of thing, So I was very interested to hear this statement made by the minister. I do not want to put words in his mouth, He has not said that they promised anything.

He has not promised anything, The Government of Canada has promised nothing in this regard but I am interested to hear that there may be in fact a glimmer of light from DREE with regard to other needed capital works in this province like hospitals because I think that DREE is going to be or can be an avenue whereby a great number of federal dollars can be diverted into this province. Because there is no check on it.

In the other programmes, the federal-provincial programmes, there is always a formula of some surt, or some sort of a check and provinces are watching jealously to make sure that there is no overrun in one province or another. But under DREE, the DREE concept is based of course on need and if you can once get a sphere of interest or a sphere of public works under DREE,well then really the sky is the limit, depending on our planning and the amount of money which Ottawa is prepared to give to the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion.

So I must say I am very interested and I do hope that the minister is successful in his endeavours in that regard. 28'74 !..

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 907 NC - 4 DR. ROWE: But there is another side I would like to mention on this, the question of industrial areas health projects.For instance, he mentioned an area such as Come By Chance where there is an industry developing and I gather from the conversations that if we can prove that we are building up an industry we have also to build up facilities and services to look after people in these industries, In this direction we seem to get not an unfavourable impression from DREE that this is an area in which their funds coul 1 also be channelled, MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, I wish the minister nothing but good fortune, I would be surprised because the path is well beaten on this and I also caution the minister, I may not be wise in very many things and may not even be wise in this but I have been dealing with Ottawa a little longer than the minister has and I was in Ottawa on different business at the same time as the hegira took place, and this friend of mine who is not unconnected with the administration of Canada said, "well delegations come and delegations go but the Civil Service goes on." He should be on his guard and not - the Premier equally, although the Premier I suspect is a little more knowledgeable.

He was a member in Ottawa, at least in name,for three years. He is tightening his no they will not do that to him but the minist r should not get his hopes built up anymore than he has and he has been very frank and said his hopes are not very high. I will not say another thing but go· ahead, DR. ROWE: I was just going to say that I can assure the honourable Leader of the Opposition that I will not spend the money until I have a little more definite certainty than I have today, MR. ROBERTS: Well I am glad to hear that.

I can assn re him that if he had any doubts, I suggest that the Finance Minster - Over the past three 26'75

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 907 ~ .5 MR. ROBERTS: or four years the Treasury Board developed a fiendishly effective set of controls. There used to be a time when minister~ could go ahead, particularly at the end of the year, and make committments and all sorts of things and the'Deputies were the great ones, the votes were thrown open on March 28 and then it was open house for the next month and the government would be three years trying to recapture control of the new programmes that had been then introduced, The Premier knows the sort of thing I am thinking about.

If he were to speak to his Deputy Minister, Mr, Channing, he could find out the sort of thing that used to go on. It was one of the great deficiencies in the controls and we picked it up about three or four years &B~, about the time Mr. Groom became Deputy Minister of Finance. However, the other thing I wanted to say was with reference to this, to ask the minister and here we may be getting into the area we will be discussing when we come to Head XX, Mr. Chairman, so I will have to tread warily.

Is there any prospect that if we get money to help with mental hospitals or hospitals period,because it would be of just as much help to the province if the Department of National Health at Ottawa or DREE would agree to build the hospital in Corner Brook and that would then increase the money,that would then free some ~oney that could be used elsewhere or so the theory always ran on special areas. But the government have been talking about a sectoral approach which has some merit. It has its weaknesses.

Kowever, what I want to ask the minister is whether he could say anything as to whether there is a possibility that if money is made available for hospitals there would be less money made available for infrastructure of other kinds or for resource development programmes of some sort or another. This is getting close to Head XX but I think it is still related to Health, Mr, Chairman. DR. ROWE: There is an overall statement, the policy 2876 .... ,

June 21, 1972, Tape 908 Page 1. we would have to agree that until our major capital construction programmes are out o:- the wa_, i.'.1e_·e will be relatively little money for other projects in Health,if this is what you are asking. MR.ROBERTS~' Well, not really I did not make myself very clear. DREE they were once called the colonial office of ~ewfoundland. I think there is much truth in that.

DREE have cut out a certain sum of money, Indeed, Ottawa I understand is now on five year P,B.S systems five year forward budgeting, There is probably someone up in the treasury board building in Ottawa who could tell us if he would, but he will not 1 obviously,what sort of expenditures DREE envisages in this Province for the next four or five years. We were talking earlier we were talking about medicare about the pie and the global budget, There is in effect a global budget for re gional etonomic expansion.

The government of Canada are now in this sort of budgeting system, I am wondering whether there is any possibility if the money is switched in the hospitals it will not go into water and sewer systems or into vocational schools or into roads or into any - My colleague,who is much more familiar with DREE than I am,says there is a very real possibility that that could happen. In other words we may be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

The minister may succeed in getting a few dollars to give us this mental hospital,which would be a very good thing, but at the same time it might mean a fisheries development programme is axed. or that a water and sewer system is axed or a road programme is axed or whatever, I wonder if the minister has given any thought to that aspect of it. MR.ROWE: Mr. Chairman, my thought is that there would have to be additional funds. It would not be a question of sacrificing some other department for the benefit of this. My answer is that I will working on the basis that it would be in addition. 2b'77

June 21, 1972. Tape 908 Page 2. MR.ROBERTS: I will let it go by saying I doubly wish the minister success and I do hope he can prevail upon the Minister of Finance to get and the cabinet to'put this progralllJlle back either this year or next. It is needed. It is at least as important as anything else in the capital project. It is fair to say that it went on for twenty odd years,nothing was done. The last extension to H.M.N.D. was done in 1949-1950-1951. There may have been the commission that started it for all I know. The place is an affront to civilization.

The whole mental health service in this province,as the minister said,needs to be improved. But we need the physical facilities out there. It is not a lot of money,it is a couple of million bucks, which I know if piled in one dollar bills before the committee is a lot of money. When we look at a five or six hundred million dollars expenditure which we will have, even the present minister of Finance will not succeed ~-n reducing that. He may try but he will not be allowed to succeed. He was not allowed this year either. But, you know it is not a lot of money for a need as great as this.

I can only hope - the minister cannot - I hope I am wrong but I doubt if you will ever get any money from DREE.I think that may be a very faint and wishful hope if it is a matter of any extra money. MR.ROWE: Let me say emphatically that apart from DREE or Ottawa the next high priority item on the list of government development is the mental hospital. On motion subhead total 1052 carried. Subhead 1062-03. MR.ROBERTS: Any new services and new programmes MR.ROWE: This relates entirely to the cost of operating them now, government hospitals. 26'78

June 21., 1972. Tape 908 Page 3. MR.ROBERTS: I know precisely what it relates to,1062-06-0I-02-03. What I am asking is whether any new1 we got to the stage the past couple of years Mr. Chairman, where hospitals were unable to continue existing services the then authorized level, but any new services or any extension of service,new programmes and the like were listed on a priority list and everybody in the department had a crack at them. The minister of Highways (acting) would be delighted to know that priorities are not a new item it has been on the go for years.

Whatever the treasury board said was available by way of funds was made available then new things were brought in. We have a $5 million increase this year which is about fourteen per cent. I wonder if there is any new services in here. MR.ROWE: Salary increments represent $1,500,000, the operation of new and extended facilities particularly the 100 new beds at St. Clare's accounts for $1,100,000. The hospital cost of increased unemployment insurance coverage is $500,000 general increase and increase in supply cost $lmillion a total of $4,580,835. MR.ROBERTS: Will he tell us what he plans to do with that money?

MR.ROWE: What he plans to do with the money? MR.ROBERTS: Well the minister has to authorize the expenditures? There is a $5 million increase in the request. MR.ROWE: Salary increments $1,500,000. Operation of the new and extended facilities at St. Clare's $2.6. The cost of the increase in the unemployment insurance another half million. The general increase resulting from the increase cost $1,400,000 that is a total of $4.5 million. MR.ROBERTS: That leaves half a million dollars,what is going to be done with that?

MR.ROWE: Well it can be used for the purchase of certain hospital '- hospitals not operated by government. That is one way in which - MR.ROHERTS: We had $5~5,000 for equipment last year and we have $500,000 r .... •• ~ b i.,

June 21, 1972. Tape 908 Page 4. this year. What new services are being contemplated this year? MR.ROWE: Apart from St. Clare's we will not have anything else ready under new services. MR.ROBERTS: I am not making myself clear 1 Mr. Chairman. By new services I do not mean new facilities. I mean for example, are we going to pick up the full cost of the c~ronary care at the Grace General here in St. John's. We still have some beds closed in some hospitals in this province,are they going to be O?ened? Are we going to have perhaps a new heart surgery programme at the General? That type of service.

I know what I am getting at - I know the estimates v~ry well,at least. If the minister wants to get us the information - MR.WOODWARD: If I may be permitted for a second 1 Mr. Chairman, in the current of the operating cost of the hospitals if the honourable minister could tell us what portion of this $14 million is allocated to the Grenfell Mission, if you do have a breakdown of that cost and if you do not have that already available,is it possible for it to be tabled so I could see what the operating cost is - the allocations to the Grenfell for the operation of the hospital.

MR.ROWE: You want the amounts for each individual hospital. Hospitals not operated by government. Gross cost of operating. M.J.Boylen Hospital $489,000. Captain William Jackman $734,000. Carbonear Community $667,000. Central Newfoundland $2,461,000 Children's Rehab. Centre $570,000. Dr. Charles Janeway Hospital $4,371,000. Grace General $5,202,000. I.q.A. Hospitals ~nd nursing stations $3,884,433. Notre Dame Bay Memorial $1,034,000. St. Clare's $3,745,000, St. John's General $8,958,000. St. Luke's Home $149,000 St. Patrick's Mercy $280,000, Western Memorial $4,030,000. Buchana $111,000.

Under hospitals also we have included the amount of operating cost of the 2b80 -~ ,.

June 21, 1972 Tape 909 JM - 1 Red Cross Transfusion Service which is a tremendous service and which cost $245 , 684.00. I trust that is the information needed. MR. ROBERTS : Yes, that is it. DR. ROWE: I am sorry, we had to get it from the wings. MR. ROBERTS: 1062(07)(01): Mr. Chairman, on this, it is a large vote, I wonder if the minister could 1ust perhaps in a few words indicate what each of the amounts is for. I know that St. Clare's, I would suspect that is the final payment on the 200 new beds representing a net addition of 100 beds. What are the others for? Could he quickly go down the line for us? DR.

ROWE: The International Grenfell one, the amount of $1~6.non was granted for the payment of $26,000 which was the third of ten annual payments on ten new nurses residences. It includes an amount for planning with respect to the new hospital at Happy Valley and the important new boiler plant for the ~forth West River Hospital and this is a very important item which - MR. ROBERTS: I know all about the boiler plant in the North West River. DR. ROWE: For two additional doctors 1 houses in the Happy Valley Area. MR. ROBERTS: How many in the Happy Valley Area? DR. ROWE: Two additional houses.

The Western Memorial of course takes into account the $80. million overall and the $4. million,about, which is allocated for this year. The health science complex is well­ known as the new general hospital and the medical school with teaching facilities up to $14. million. The Grace Hospital extension,which is completed,in the amount of S85,000. MR. ROBERTS: Is the chimney finished now? DR. ROWE: Yes, there are still some discussions on the financial arrangements with the Grace General on the amount to come back. Physically the structure is completed. Notre Dame Bay Memorial $1,800,000. 2681

June 21, 1972 Tape 909 MR. ROBERTS: Is that the completion of the project? pR. R~IB: No. Under the next one (08) , the Conception Ray Hospi'.:al­ that does not exist and should be scratched through and called the Carbonear Community Hospital. MR. ROBERTS: Well, the minister cannot amend it but one of his colleagues can 1 if he wishes. DR ROWE: It is a misnomer for the Carbonear Pospital, the Carbonear Community Hospital: MR ROBERTS: One of the minister's colleague's hospital.

D_B. __ ROl~_:_ Now under community clinics, I went last night in my opening statement through the names of the places,if you want me to repeat e.~m again I will. There was the J)eer Lake one which is contracted and almost completed, the New World Island one which is about to start, the St. Alban's one to which we have committed ourselves and ,rlll he starting in the near future.

This is the diagnostic and laboratory facilities and examining rooms. (Inaudible) the clinic at Codroy, the residence for the doctor at Port Saunders and the Western Bay site extension and the possibility of Terrenceville and Trout River and of course Bird Cove. MR. ROBERTS: Does the doctor propose to operate the Port Saunders one himself? DR. RQ_~ No, at the present time we are putting up the residence and the idea is that the clinic will follow but this will still be under the aegis of IGA. JM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Because last year when we put a residence into Roddickton, the pilot project on that,the IGA built it.

The money was paid to IGA and, in turn, they built it. I was just wondering if there was any change after. DR. ROHE: Well, I was very happy to see IGA conti_nue to be responsible because they can obviously get personnel sometimes when we cannot. MR. ROBERTS: IGA took it over after the government had a problem - 2882 ...... , . , .

June 21, 1972 Tape 909 P.~ ROWE: There is another example, the government wants to get out of operating any hospitals and clinics,then somebody has to take over so I am very happy about that. .TM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: What views has my honourable colleague from Bell Island on it? MR. NEARY: That satisfies me, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1062(07)(08): This has been amended to read Carbonear CotTllllunity Hospital. On motion, sub-head 1062, carried. On motion, sub-head 1064, carried. On motion, sub-head 1065, carried. MR. ROBERTS : - -- ------- Mr.

Chairman, on the cottage hospital one the only question I h;ive to ask would be if the minister would tell us,there is $]00,000 in here for capital, is that Cone by Chance? What plan? What is going to be done with all that money? Q_R~ JiOWE ~ 1066? MR ~_~]!F~!~: Yes, the cottage hospital vote, Mr. Chairman. DR. ROWE: 1066(09)(08): That $100,000 is provided for extensions to the cottage hospital at Corne by Chance to provide adequate facilities and some improveroent in the index facilities.

I think you are aware of the fact that Come by Chance being a growinr. industrial area the facilities for treatments in the outpatients and indeed the hospital are quite unsatisfactory. We are very aware of this an<l we are making funds available at least to make a start on improvinr, the facilities particularly in the outpatients. MR. ROBERTS: Mav I ask, Mr. Chairman, what it is going to cost to finish the project? Is it a one or two or a three year type thing? DR . .. ~\•~:. - I think we are thinking in terms of $150,000 for this particular facility. MR.

ROBERTS : ., ____ .., __ _ Have the administration, Sir, any plans in respect of

June 21, 1972 Tape 909 any of the other cottage hospitals? Let us see, we have done the past few years Channel, Burgeo, Burin, Grand Bank, Harbou~ Breton I think was done last year. Are there any others in the works? Any other plans for work on the cottage hospitals? ~~- R~~~ Not specifically. There was a problem with the heating plant in Botwood Hospital which has been gone into but there are no specific plans at the moment,to my knowledge. MR. ROBERTS: The alterations programme will end with Come by Chance? nR. ROWE: At the present time, to my knowledge. MR. WINSOR: About the cottage hospital at Brookfield, Mr.

Chairman. I understand the outpatient thing there gets very overcrowded and ::·u,abersome. DR. ROWE: I do not know. I will take a note of that. MR. ROBERTS: There was work supposed to be done last year on it. MR. WINSOR: T do not know but they are still complaining about the lack of space. On motion, sub-head 1066, carried. MR. ROBERTS: 1067(01): Mr. Chairman, only one or two very brief questions. Is the psychiatrist Dr. Gough coming back? I have seen some reference to it, I think his time is about come. Are there any other plans to provide new services in the Gander Area? DR. ROWE: Well, as you know Dr.

Gough has been a long-standing practitioner in the cottage hospital system. He did quite a few years in Gander. He has been doing a CQurse in child psychiatry with the idea of coming back to Gander and is due to come back sometime in the next, r ·· 114 ,:;,bo JM - -4

June 21, 1972 Tape 910 PK - 1 DR. ROWE: within the next month or two. We should mention that he has been trained as a child psychiatrist. There is only one other, to the best of my knowledge. Now that '. ·,~re i·· a psychiatrist _:i\ "lt recently entered into practice in Grand Falls, I think what we should do is try and get Dr. Goff and the psychiatrist tocooperate, both hospitals are relatively close together, I think we could work up really a good psychiatric unit between Gander and Grand Falls, now that each has a specific type of psychiatrist with them. Dr.

Goff yes is completing his course in the near future and is due back in Gander. MR. ROBERTS: Any new services? How is our ophthalmologist working out there? DR. ROWE: It is very interesting, I have asked to arrange a meeting between the ophthalmologist and the optometrist and I think it will be very interesting. MR. ROBERT~: Is this just in respect of Gander, Mr, Chairman1 DR. ROWE: No, no, in respect of providing services throughout the province. One of the big problems is that the ophthalmologists are in such short number. They do a lot of refractions.

If we could somehow have the optometrists and the ophthalmologists to liaison - MR ROBERTS: Even they have come a long way. We now have optometrists who suggest that they be tolerated •• DR ROWE: Anyway we have asked for a meeting between the optometrists and the ophthalmologists in Newfoundland because there are several problems, Fogo,for instance, is writing in about a visiting optometrist. I realize this problem exist in quite a number of areas. The interesting thing is to try and get the co-operation of both these bodies so that they can service these specific areas. MR .

ROBERTS: One of the practical problems was that you go to an ophthalmologist and have your glasses measured, Your Honour, the government pay the bill through M,C.P. If you go to an optometrist

June 21 , 1972 Tape 910 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: and have them measured, you dig into your own pocket or get the welfare to pay it, which leaves me to ask, where do we stand on this eternal question - there are so many questions in health areas of bring optometry within the services provided through the medical care plan. I see Ottawa have agreed to put it on the right base for the new formula. DR. ROWE: Would the honourable Leader mind if I asked him if he had any success in this direction? MR, ROBERTS: I am sorry? DR.

ROloIB: Did the honourable Leader have any success in this direction himself in the years in which he was the minister? }ffi , ROBERTS: I was completely successful, Ottawa have now agreed to bring the cost of optometric services within the base from which they will provide medicare 1 minus any press reports. DR. ROWE: They have not been accepted 1 As far as I know, we cannot yet include optometric services within the stages of M.C.P. MR. ROBERTS: No, but in the rate base for the escalation on the new global formula, DR.

ROWE: The question you asked was,whether we will see the day when optometrist fees can be paid for by M,C. P? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, which is a provincial decision, but right now it will cost us all the money and not the FISP, DR. ROWE: Hopefully at the Health Ministers Conference this will be considered because it is a decision to be taken in isolation, I would suggest. MR. ROBERTS: This is considered every year, I guess I keep going to ophthalmologists. On motion 1067-01 cattied, DR. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, attention to the honourable member for Fogo, you will notice in the vote 08- in construction and alterations, it was utilized for Brookfield and Fogo. There is not an amount allocated in here for Brookfield. I am sorry I did not realize that 2086 -~-

J une 21, 1972 Tape 910 PK - 3 DR, ROWE: when you asked the question. MR. ROBERTS: 1068-03 - Are all the beds in the Roddickton, now in operation? DR. RO~..:.. Yes, except they have a problem which came to my notice a day or two ago the perennial problem is a lack of,shortaRe of staff in the swnmer and for the next couple of months while this shortage of nursing staff exist there will be a number of beds . But we did open a number earlier this winter, but just purely temporary Because of the staff problems during the SUllllD.er there will be a slight decrease in the number operative. On motion 1068-03 carried.

On motion total subhead 1068 carried. On motion total subhead 1069 Larried. On motion Block Provision Canada Pension Plan carried. On motion Block Provision Unemployment Insurance carried. On motion Block Provision Medical Staff Salary Increases DR, ROWE: I have no plan at the present time to hire executive assistances in the department. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. DR . ROWE: Not within the department at the present time. On motion Current (Capital) carried, MR. J. G.ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Chairman, before you carry the total for health, I have no wish to delay the proceedings, but I think it would be negligent of me, as a representative of the people of Labrador City and Wabush, if I did not extent a sincere vote of gratitude to the Provincial Department of Health and to the Newfoundland Medical Association in regard to the way they co-operated in alleviating a very difficult medical situation in my district. The feelings were running very strongly prior to a visit by the Minister of Health in mid-February and in March,through the co-operation of the Newfoundland Medical Association, a rotating

June 21, 1972 Tape 910 ~ - 4 MR. ROUSSEAU: system was set up to provide temporary relief for residents of Labrador City and Wabush. The programme was to have lasted until the end of May but it was extended through July through the kind co-operation of the parties involved. At the end of July we hope to have secured permanent relief for our medical situation. The people of Labrador City and Wabush have asked me to extent our sincere feeling of gratitude to the Department of Health and to the Newfoundland Medical Association, in particular, to the Newfoundland Medical Association, to Dr.

Lawton, who was the immediate past President 1 to the President, Dr. Duff,the President Elect, to all the Table Officers and to Gerry Lynch his secretary and to all the doctors who participated in the rotating programme, We feel, Sir, that the NMA in this situation had discharged its responsibility to the people of Labrador City and Wabush and should accordingly be praised for its gesture of concern for people in need, We thank them very much. On motion Head X - Department of Health carried. XI - Social Services and Rehabilitation. HON. T.P. HICKEY: (MINISTER OF SOCIAL SERVICES AND REHABILITATION): Mr.

Chairman, before we get on to the various subheads I suppose it is customary that I make some general remarks. I do not intend to make them very lengthly.As we go through there will be some pertinent questions I am sure, in terms of possible changes,and the information that I hope to provide at that time. I should say at the outset, Sir, that my department is undergoing a thorough investigation. I am not sure if that is the right word, maybe a reassessment, from the point of view of improvement both in the programme and in various aspects of it as it applies to the people we serve, 2088

June 21, 1972, Tape 911, Page 1 -- apb Certainly one of the areas in which we have already moved is in the increase in staff (in our field staff which we will p:et into later on in some detail) increases in staff whi,~h have been necessary, J"r. Chairman, for quite a number of years. I am happy to say that we have heen able to move in this direction already. Another area which needs to be looked at is the Child Welfare Division. We have made some improvements here. There is certainly a need for a great many changes in the welfare programme as it applies to neglected children and the adoption programme.

As we go throup:h I hope we will he able to supply some information in this particular cate!!ory. One particular area which is of concern to us is the number of children who have been cominp: into care over the years, and we believe that a more thorough form of service, a chanp:e in direction and certainly some additional services are required in this area, because we believe that if we were providing some additional services such as case work and counselling by some of our professional people, a fair number of those children that we have taken into care in the past would not be in care. }~r.

Chairman, I do not think it is necessary for me to outline in any detail the desirability of children remaining in their o~m homes even under not the best of conditions, but certainly in too many instances we have to take them because of lack of service. We have not been able to provide the reouired service and we have not been able to follow up because of heavy case load and in some instances, because of the lack of professional help. There is, ¥r. Chairman, a realignment of my staff in the field insofar as deployinp: certain professional people to certain areas, where they can we believe c1o the most good.

From a rehabilitation point of view, this is essential and we believe that in a very short time,with this new kind of direction and this new attitude on the part of this department,we will see some benefits accruin!!'. from it. 2b89

June 21, 1972, Tape 911, Page 2 -- apb It has already been indicated, Mr. Chairman, in the Budget Speech,that there are going to have to be certain cut-backs in terms of housing, repairs and what have you.

We will get into that and what we propose to do, I feel that it is necessary an~ I would be less than honest as minister if I did not outline and say here in this House that it is necessary on the one hand and why it is necessary, It is not just enough to refuse people assistance or to have any cut-backs in the form of assistance that we provide, without giving a clear-cut explanation and in fact a justification for it, Ore thing has become more evident as time goes by and that is that some of our people are expecting my department to get into housing in ~ mucr great way than I believe we should.

It is questionable in fact whether or not we should be in housing as far as we are. But certainly, a good hard look is going to have to be taken at this particular Heading and this particular problem. Either we are going to have to get into housing in an even preater way than we are and develop some kind of sane or sensible programme, er we should get out of it altogether. It has to be said, Mr. Chairman, that the rising cost of building materials and the manner in which monies were expended have to be looked at. A good look has to be taken at this particular problem and there has to be some new direction.

In fact, we have taken some steps in this area. As we go through the estimates, Mr. Chairman, we will r-:et into correctional services and I think it is better that we wait until we pet to those Headings for me to give certain information as it would apply there. I think I can end very quickly by saying that the department as a whole needs a thorough going over. It is getting just that. We have made some improvements,as I said.

It is going to take a long time to do it because we must move slowly, cautiously, always with the thought in mind that we are dealing with human beings and that we must be very careful about the steps we take. I can assure this House, Mr. Chairman, that any steps that we take in the way of cut backs, will be taken only when they are absolutely necessary. On the other hand, the steps that we take on the other ..... r •

June 21, 1972, Tape 911, Page 3 -- apb end as it were, will be taken for the best interest of those people we serve. I feel that after this fiscal year we will be able to show some real gains and we will be able to justify quite quickly and readily the changes that we have already made, It is also necessary for me to say that in line with the increases and the improvements that we have made in the programme shortly after taking office, it is also necessary that we now take a look at the programme from the point of view of how it is bcinp administered.

With the increase in staff, with a kind of new direction of that staff and with some emphasis at least placea on an investigative branch, small thoup;h it may be, we must, Mr. Chairman, ensure that the money we spend is spent properly and goes to the people who need it most. I am not so sure that this has been done in the past. In fact, almost weekly there is an indication that in fact it has not. I am not necessarily sayinp that this government is adopting a hard line insofar as welfare recipients are concerned. Certainly this is not the case, in fact it is the opposite.

We must insist that if money is being wasted in this department, if people are beating the system, we must seek those oeople out. We must remind then continuously that this is a service. It is not there for the taklnr., whether it is needed or whether it is not. Eligibility must be proven or must be shown to a reasonable extent. With thls in 11'.ind, Mr. Chairman, it is my intention to place some emphasis on investipation 11n the larger centres at least, so . that we can bring our programme in line so that the funds that are dispersed will po to the people who need it most.

There are areas that we have not been able to touch on this year as yet. For example, I would cite just a couple: The provision of eyeglasses, the provision of dentures and certain items of this nature which will cost money. Mr. Chairman, if becoming more efficient and if doin~ a better job as a result of reducing the case load and havinp our additional staff we can save some money in those areas, then certainly the place C": ,· .'\ 1 ,;;u ~

June 21, 1972, Tape 911, Page 4 - aph that that money should be applied is to those additional services that we are not now providinsr.. I think, ~fr. Chairman, that this should be sufficient at the moment so that we can' get on. As we g~t to the various Headings I am sure that we can provide the information and answer :,ny qvestions that hon. members have on the other side. .\';::'-

June 21, 1972 Tape no. 912 Page 1 - MRW Mr. Neary. Mr, Chairman, I have a few general remarks to make on - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon. What was that burp from Burgeo sayint, Mr. Chairman? The minister told us of some of the changes that he had in mind concerning the department as it presently exists.

I should only say at the outset that the Department of Social Services and Rehabiliation is probably one of the most wide-ranging departments of government, Most people have a tendency just when they think about the Department of Social Services and Rehabiliation that it is a place you come for a hand­ out, All they deal with is short and long-term assistance. Most people have the wrong impression of the department.

It is a department that looks after people who are unemployed through no fault of their own; looks after unemployed invalids; looks after the aged; looks after mentally retarded 1physically handicapped adults; mentally retarded and physically handicapped children; looks after children who have been deserted; juvenile delinquents, boys and girls who run afoul of the law; looks after the Indians and Eskimos in Northern Labrador; provides grants for private agenencies. It is a very wide-ranging department,Mr. Chairman,and probably one of the most important departments of government.

It is probably one that touches on more people than all the other departments of government put together, including the Department of Health. The Department of Health just deals with sick people. The Department of Education deals with the education of children, adults, The Department of Social Services and Rehabiliation touches on just about every family in Newfoundland at one time or another, When I was minister of that department, Mr. ehairman, I stated publicly on a number of occasions that I thought that social assistanc~, as we know it now, was really a clUIIISy way for looking after people who are in need.

I still maintain, Mr. Chairman, that it is a most clumsy way for taking care of people who are either unemployed through no fault of their own or unemployed invalids. I think the

June 21, 1972 Mr. Neary. Tape no, 912 Page, department needs to take on a completely new direction, Sir. I think that - this was some unfinished business that I had to leave bebind 1 unfortunately, I ~as hoping that ~would be able to stay in that department long enough to carry out a pilot project in the province on the guaranteed annual income. Mr. Chairman, I assume that the future will follow the immediate past in the great emphasis on producing material goods that go to improving the material standard of living of our people, not only here but this is happening all over the world.

We must assume, Sir, that the increases of productivity will depend upon improvements in production technology. thal will see •~e substitution of machines and machines controlling machines for human hands. What we really have to take a good hard look at, Sir, is how we are going to distribute to all the people the fruits of our gross national product to those, Sir, who ordinarily will not be able to earn a livelihood through work. Work, if the present trend continues, just will not exist.

Now, Sir, as I said,the establishment of a guaranteed annual income was one of my ambitions and it is one that is getting a great deal of attention. Members probably know a little more about the guaranteed annual income than I do, Sir, but it is really based on a principle that will give to the workless a share of what is produced by the combination of workers and machines which they operate, Another solution to the problem of unemployment, Mr. Chairman, is what the Government of Canada is doing now through the Opportunity For Youth Programme and the Local Initiative frogramme.

Instead of distributing income to the workless as a free gift,as the minister rightly pointed out, the Government of Canada have been experimenting for the last two years with the Opportunity For Youth Programme and the Local Incentive Programme to create work that could ordinarily, Sir, not be justified on economic grounds, but where the public treasury would subsidize wages of those who were either employed in the low income brackets or for those who had no income .~

June 21, 1972 Mr. Neary, Tape no. 912 Page 3 and this could either be done in the p.rivate or in the public sector.

Now, Sir, if the forecasts of the economists and the statisticians and the experts are correct,and they could very well be off the beam, Mr, Chairman, I think it is better for a government to plan for what is going to happen say five, ten years from now, instead of ignoring the situation and be compelled in a few years from now, with the unpleasallt reality that there is no plan of action to confront the increasing unemployment that is taking place, I think, Sir, this sort of a government would be very foolish indeed and one that would not be deserving of the support and the trust of the people. Mr.

Chairman, what I am trying to say is that it would appear to me at least for us to take a senaiile attitude and direct our energies and our resources into helping the private sector to create as many jobs as possible and to provide income for the unemployed employables through the guaranteed annual income. As I say, Sir, the jobs in the private sector could be created through government subsidies, I think ~hat this would be much better, Mr. Chairman, than just doling out

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 913 the money without any opportunity of it being earned by the recipients. NC· 1 Now, Sir, I realize that in order to accomplish this that the minister and the administration will'need concurrence of the Government of Canada and I might say, Sir, that I pushed hard at the various Federal-Provincial Welfare Ministers 1 Conferences that I attended when I was minister, for permission to br:i.ng work programmes under the terms of the Canada Assistance Plan, that is the Plan whereby Mr. Chairman, the Government of Canada pays fifty per cent of the cost of all welfare programmes in the province.

I might say, Sir, that I was rather pleased that a gr~at deal of progress had been made along these lines and my understanding is that the Government of Canada will now allocate funds both for make work projects and pilot projects to test the i~pact of the guaranteed annual income on people in selected areas right across eanada, So, Sir, it was when I departed from that department, that I was in the process of selecting a community in Newfoundland to conduct a pilot project to see what the impact of the guaranteed annual income would be .on the people in a specific area.

The experts tell us, Sir, that the real danger in the guaranteed annual income is that it destroys initiative', that people would prefer to take the guaranteed annual income than go to work. So therefore Sir, it-has to be done in an area where there are employment opportunities, where people are exposed to employment opportunities. I personally think that Bell Island, where we had that great economic disaster back in 1966,would be an ideal place to experiment with the guaranteed annual income because we are not too far from St. John's, the people can commute back and forth to work.

There is a great opportunity on the island to createmake-work projects and people would be exposed.to employment ... , -.

.June 21, 1972 Tape No. 913 NC - 2 opportunities. However, there are other places and the reason I said Bell Island, Mr. Chairman, was because you can have clearly defined bouncaries. It is an island. There is no overlapping. The danger in doing it in a specific part of St. John's is that all the people in one area would want to move into the area where the experiment is being carried on because the assistance would be much more generous. So I would strongly urge the minister, '·fr.

Chairman, to follow through on the plans, on the foundation that w~s laid in the department,to become more involved in make-work projects and to carry out a pilot project on the guaranteed annual income. Now, Sir, I do not want to spend too much time on this. This is a subject that we could talk about for a lonr, time. I do not intend to delay the item hy item appraissl of the estimates. There are one or two questions that I would like to ask the minister before I take my seat but 1Mr.

Chairman, before I do that, the minister in his opening remarks did not say too much ahout the care of senior citizens in the province. Now, Sir, hon. members might remember about a year and a-half ago 1when we had the Provincial Development Conference over here in the Arts and Culture Centre, I announced at that time the Liberal policy on the care of senior citizens in this province. I stated, Mr. Chairman, that our number one priority was to keep people in their owri homes as long as possible because, Sir, as hon. members know,this is where they are the happiest. We planned on doing this, Mr.

Chairman, by giving senior citizens more generous cash assistance and be more generous in our assistance in material to repair their houses and by organizing home visits and establishing day care centres and a meals-on-wheels programme.

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 913 NC - 3 I might say, Sir, that prior to my leaving the department, we had already entered into an agreement with the V.O.N. here in St. John's to carry out a pilot project on the meals-on-wheels programme. Now, Sir, when it became impossible then for the elderly people to remain in their own home, it was my government's intention at the time, to have a n\Dllber of residential homes scattered throughout the province and before resigning from office, Sir, we had made commitments to Lewisporte, St. Anthony and we were taking a hard look at the Southcoast.

My hon. friend from Fortune Bay would be delighted to hear that--: and a number of other centres strategically located throughout the province, The residential type home, Mr. Chairman, ~~uld be a kind of a home that would accommodate about fifteen, twenty, twenty-five residents. These would all be ambulatory people, no bedridden people ih the main centres across the province, Sir. Incidentally, Mr. Chairman, there was a Cabinet Directive. We had .made a co111111itment in writing for a guarantee of occupancy and financial assistance to both St. Anthony and Lewisporte.

I would like for the minister,when he is winding up his remarks,if he would comment on this. Now, Sir, in Grand Falls, in the major centres, St. John's, Gander, Grand Falls and Corner Brook, we planned on having nursing homes which could take care of people when they could no longer fend for themselves either in the residential type homes or in their own homes,due to illness or for some other reason. Sir, I might point out to the hon. minister that an Order­ in-Council had been issued giving the Grand Fall inter-faith group the green light on an eighty bed home in that area.

Corner Brook, Sir, had already been well under construction and is partly occupied by now and construction had begun on the senior citizens home in Gander. "'. --g ,; b Ll ...... r:

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 913 NC - 4 As I indicated, Sir, a commitment had been made to Lewisporte and St. Anthony for ninety-eight per cent occupancy and other financial assistance to get their homes built. This was some of the unfinished business, Sir, that I had to leave behind. nut there was one other very imp·ortant matter and I would like for the minister to take this into consideration, Sir, that I was planning on dealing with and that was in the area of providing transportation for our senior citizens. I had hoped, Mr.

Chairman, to negotiate with all licenced passenger carrying services within our provincial boundaries for the purpose of securing free transportation for properly identified old age pensioners. So that in spite of their deminishing physical powers, Mr. Chairman, senior citizens would have transportation to and from these day-care centres that we were going to establish,and to and from recreation centres as well as to and from the homes of relatives and friends, thus establishing, Mr.

Chairman, a new,much deserved and much desirable dimension to the lives of those who are rapidly approaching the destined end of lifesspectrum. Now, Sir, this is a new concept but one in my opinion that is very deserving of the consideration of the minister and the government. I would like to see this programme continued, Mr. Chairman, and perhaps the minister could indicate whether or not this will be done.

When I made my departure from the Department of Social Services, Sir, I am most happy to report to this House, that I left the Department of Social Services in the most capable hands I suppose that we have here in Confederation Building.

June 21, 1972 Tape 914 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: I would say, Sir, that the Department of Social Services yea, I would say this, although I did not have any experience in the Department of Health or in the Department of Education or in the bigger departments of government. I was acting minister of a number of other government departments. But I would have to say, Sir, the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation was one of the better run departments. It was well run, Sir, and it had a good staff, excellent staff.

I am sure that the minister will have to admit that when he walked into the office that he found the finest group of Newfoundlanders, the finest staff' he could find anywhere in Newfoundland. So, Sir, I was very happy to leave that department in the most capable hands. Now I understand, Mr. Chairman, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation, Roy Roberta,retired as of the end of May or the end or April, I am not quite sure which. I have not heard an announcement yet, Mr. Chairman, as to whether a successor has been appointed or not, perhaps - MR. HICKEY: A voluntary retirement.

MR, NEARY: I think it was a voluntary retirement. I think if Mr. Roberts did actually go, as he had indicated to me when I was minister there that he did plan on taking early retirement, I think it was as of the end of May. I would like to ask the minister if he would indicate if a succ~ssor has been appointed or when a successor will be appointed? One project that I did in that department that I was rather proud of, apart from the adoptions programme, Mr. Chairman, the adoptions programme was really my pet, The minister just made very vague reference to it in his opening remarks.

But when I went into that department, Sir, there were almost 650 little children in this province who had no moms and dads of their own. They did not know what it was like, Sir, to have a permanent home, When I left I think that ~.

June 21, 1972 Tape 914 PK - 2 MR. N~~J!:.. total was reduced to about 275, Sir. The tragic part about the 275 was that these were children in the older age groups they were anywhere from two and ~-h4lf, three, four, five years of age and as a child gets older it is harder to place the children because most adpoted partents want babies and they try and get them right from the hospital. So, Sir, this was one of my pet projects, I was rather proud of that, But I was also proud of the fact, Mr.

Chairman, that I was able to for the first time in this province opened two institutions, Exon House, right down here under the hill,not too far from Confederation Building, for the care of mentally retarded and physically handicapped children. I was able to take over a very fine building in Carhonear, Saddle Hill, the former Halfway House,which I renamed Harbour Lodge,for the care of mentally retarded and physically handicapped adults. When I left the department, Sir, I think probably the number of beds that were occupied were running around maybe forty-five percent or fifty percent.

But, Sir. one of the ~reatest needs in this province and I think the Minister of Health touched on it in his opening remarks last night, one of the greatest needs in this province today is for the care of mentally retarded and physically handicapped adults. The honourable minister knows that right in here in the sanatorium, in the old sanatorium on Topsail Road, as far as I am concerned, and I think the honourable minister will agree with me that that building should be demolished, The people should be moved out of it into a new institution , Sir.

So I did make some progress along the lines of looking after these people, not enough. The building may not be fully occupied yet, I do not think Exon House down here is fully occupied ye~. Talking about the care of physically handicapped and mentally retarded children, Sir. Exon House will only look after those children who are not troublesome. 2901

June 21, 1972 Tape 914 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: I would venture to say, Mr, Chairman, that in this honourable House today that there are members, probably every member, who know of a case where there is a mentally retarded child in a home, ten , eleven, twelv~, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years of age, troublesome, locked in the bedroom, a lot of cases locked in the basement, tied on. It is a fact, Mr, Chairman, the honourable Minister of Health could probably verify this.

I know of case.a and the honourable Minister of ~ocial Services probahly knows of a lot of cases because the correspondence comes to him and it is brought to his attention. Because, Mr. Chairman, we have no facilities in this province at the present time for these kind of children nor for these kind of adults for that matter. We have beautiful buildings for the ones who are not troublesome, but we do not have adequate facilites for those who are troublesome. I was glad to hear the honourable Minister of Health say that the next item of priority on his list of priorities would be a new Mental Hospital.

I think that is badly needed, Sir. But I think also that equal consideration should be given to adequate facilities for looking after , I do not know if "troublesome" is the right word, Mr. Chairrnan,perhaps the minister knows how you would describe the type of mentally retarded and physically handicapped adult that I am talking about. You would not call them troublesome, but incurable and the Mental Hospital is no place for them because they retard the progress of the Mental Hospital and they should be in a separate institution. So that is what I am getting at, Mr. Chairman.

But anyway, we did make a fair amount of progress and I think that the minister should indicate whether or not he plans on continuing this progra111111e. Now, Mr. Chairman, the minister mentioned in his opening remarks increase in staff, Well this is something,when I was minister of -~

June 21, 1972 Tape 914 PK - 4 MR. NEARY: the department,that we had given a considerable deal of thought to, Sir. I stated publicly again in this province,as far as I was concerned, that our trained personnel in the Department of Social Services were being wasted. They would spent three, four or five years at university, get a degree in social work and then come out, Mr. Chairman, and you know what . we do with the social workers and the welfare officers, we make clerks out of them. They sit down behind desks.

People come in, they issue assistance, write out a cheque, fill out a form, write out a check and send them away with their assistance.

So about a year and a-half ago, I asked the Regional Administrator in Corner Brook, the western part of the province, if he would indicate to me just how many clerks would be required to replace the welfare officers, I intended to carry out an experiment in the western part of the province and use clerks in the offices so that the welfare officers and the trained social workers could be freed up to go out and do the counselling for which they were trained, either do it in offices or do it in their own homes, do it in the homes of the clients.

I know lawyers do not like that term, when you talk about welfare recipients. They do not like to hear them called "clients." But, Sir, they are human beings, Then I also planned Sir, on computerizing the system, bring it up to date. It is an outdated system, Sir.

What I was hoping to do was take an area, for instance, like Southern Labrador where you have a transportation communications problem, Take an area like Southern Labrador and do the same thing that the Unemployment Insurance CollDllission does, Sir, send them out their form, have them pick it up at the post office, pick it up at the welfare office, fill out a form and send it in and have the cheque mailed out, It was an experiment that I would liked to have completed, Sir. I already removed the stigma from welfare by replacing the old voucher

June 21, 1972 Tape 914 p - 5 MR .• NEARY: system with cheques ,in the fac·e of severe crtticism, Sir. But we have to put the system,bring it into the seventies. Sir. you can hire all of the trained staff that yo\l like,and God only knows the staff is needed, I agr~e with the honourable minister. I fought with Treasury Board for three years, I did manage to get some increases in staff, But increases in staff is not the answer, Mr. Chairman, because the case load is going to increase, -~ .. "-~-

June 21, 1972 Tape 915 JM - 1 unemployment is going to get nrorressively worse, Sir. There are going to be - I think this trend is already established. You are going to see more breakup in families. I sometimes wonder, Mr. Chainnan, if the basic unit of society today is still the family and I doubt it. The minister said in his opening remarks more children, he is very concerned about this about the number of children coming in to care. Mr. Chairman, I was very concerned about it. T sometimes wonder if we did not make it too easy for children to be made wards of the state.

I do not think, Sir, that increasing the staff in the offices is really the answer. I think vou have to clo two thinp;s. You have to put clerks in where vou now have trained social workers and welfare officers and you have to computorize the system. Now, Sir, the honourable minister made a sort of a vague reference to housing and the honourable minister said that investigations were bein11: carried out to see how the cost of housing could be recluced. Well. Sir, I would just take the opposite view myself. I would say, Mr.

Chairman, without fear of contradiction,that the cost of building material and materials to repair homes in this province are going to increase. There is no way to stop it. You might be able to keeri it from going comrilete]v out of hand, Sir, but, Mr. Chairman, with the climatic conditions that we have in this province and with the older homes deteriorating, Sir, there is no way you can deny people assistance in material to repair their homes.

Sir, I do not know, I have not checked with D.B.S. but I would say, right off the top of my head, that anywhere from sixty-five to seventy per-cent of the homes in Newfoundland,where you have a cold wet damp cJimate,are no insulation. Sir, no insulation. Up on top and nothing around the bottom of the house to protect it from the northeast wind. No water and sewerage, Sir, would not even think about it. The water would probably freeze up. The house probably

June 21, 1972 Tape 915 JM - 2 would not stand the shock of a toilet flushing, go down to the outhouse. I would say, Sir, there are sixty-five per-cent of the houses in Newfoundland like that. Then the honourable minister tells us that he is going to see if he can reduce the cost of building materials, material to make houses wind proof and water tiP.ht. Sir, I cannot see it. I could be wrong but I cannot see it. I think we should be lashing out more building materials, Sir, to people. Spend the money, lash it out to them in buildini materials.

The Minister of Finance might not agree with it but: the Minister of Finanre is living ouite comfortable over on Circular Road, Sir. He has his central heating and his water and sewerage, his indoor plumbinv, and, Sir, he can s~~nd in this House and he can say, 'A quarter of a million dollars was spent on Bell Island, so much was spent here." Sir, I had a proposal put to me by the committee over on the Blackhead Road and I can tell the honourable minister that I had no hesitation at all in approving it.

Under the Local Incentive Programme, Sir, the citizens committee over there made an application to repair homes on the Blackhead Road, homes of people in the low income and the no income bracket. They could get their application approved by the C'..overnment of Canada if the Department of Social Services would provide the material. Sir. I had no hesitation at all. None whatsoever,but I think the Minister of Finance has been pep.ny wise and pound foolish, Sir. If you do not repair the homes you are goin~ to have to build new ones for these people.

I think it is far less expensive for a government and the taxpayers of this province to try to repair the homes, Sir, then to go out and build new ones. The honourable member for Port au Port is smiling at that but he knows what I am talking about because I can remember the day in Commission of Government when they made a study of Newfoundland, sent over the express from England,and Stephenville, Winsor and Bell Island (,"

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 916 Page 1 Mr, Neary. tell us about the experiment we carried out in Northern Labrador; the fish plant we built at Naine. We planned or duplicating the effort at Makkovik. This last year it was a tremendous success. There was full employment in Naine last year, Mr. Chairman. Would you believe that? There were women out working in the fish plant. I was there. I saw it with my own eyes. There were women working for the same pay as men. There was no discrimination, equal pay for equal work in this fish plant in Naine where they were processing Arctic char, smoked salmon, pickled trout.

The delicacies are on the table of the people of New York, the great restaurants and hotels in New York. The "Galloping Gourmet" has not heard of it yet, Sir, but I am sure he will. When he does, you will look at your television one of these nights and there will be the Arctic char and the smoked salmon, Sir. It is a delicious product. I do not know if the hon. member for St. John's South tried it yet. Perhaps the "burp from Burgeo" could get him some. Seriously, Mr. Chairman, it is an excellent product. It took the place of the fishery in Northern Labrador which has failed for the last few years.

Sir, that plant performed wonders in Naine. We hired Ian Stratton, who was over here at the College of Fisheries and who is now with the Extension Service at the University, We hired him as a consultant. He went in - as a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, he was partly responsibile for developing the Arctic char, when he was at the College of Fisheries. He went in there and opened up this fish plant for us. I would have retained Mr, Stratton as a consultant to duplicate the effort in Makkovik, Then you would have a fish plant on either side, Sir.

The fishermen would be be able to come either way, It would have been a tremendous boom for Northern Labrador, Sir, and I am sure we will hear more about it from the honourable member for the district. I have not been there. I think it was back when? Was it in June or July or August I went there? It was prior to my retiring from the department, The honourable member has been there since. He will probably verify this to the honourable

June 21, 1972 Tape no. 916 PagL 2 members of this House what I am. saying. I would like to see that programme continued. Now, Sir, I thlnk that is about.all I have to say at this moment. There are some questions that I would like to ask when we get to the subheads, On the boys' and girls' training home, Sir, I do not intend to get into a hassle with the minister over this. Honourable members will remember the abuse was heaped on me when I was on that side of the House, the criticism and the abuse because boys and girls were running away from the homes - running away. There was abuse, Mr.. Chairman, political hypocrisy. I am not referring to the ho~ourable minister but there wer