VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 ~.rn. TUESDAY, DECE!1BER 11, 1979 NO. 48

December 11, 1979 The House met at 3.00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (SU!MS): l-!R. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: Tape 1761 PK - 1 Order, please! STATEHENTS BY MINISTERS The hon. Minister of ~lines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, I would like to report to the House and I have to mention that this has already been released publicly, because again we seem to be caught on the pressures of timing on the part of the company and so on.

It was not intentional. in terms of not - if it •.o~as possible it would have been announced in the House fi:::st, but the announcement that Chevron Standard Limited as operator of a group of companies drilling the Hibernia P-15 well has concluded a production test of perforations through casing in the interval. 3,852 metres to 3,858 metres, an interval. of 6 metres, which flowed at a rate of 2,635 barrels of oil - S0!·1E HON. MEMBERS: Hear, !lear~ SOME EON • }1EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

BARRY: - which flowed at a rate of 2,635 barrels of oil per day of 34.5 degrees API gravity oil, that is a desired c;:uality oil, wit..'l. a gas-oil ratio of 890 cubic feet per barrel. The well was tested t..'>rough a 26/64 inch choke for a period of seven hours. No water was encountered during the test. Testing of additional. potential hydro­ carbon zones al::ove the 3, 852 metre level is planned. Part.'lers in t..1.e venture are Chevron, Mobil, Gulf, Petro-Ca.nada and Columbia.

So we can say that we are encouraged by the results of the test of this second zone, this is apart from the previous 800 barrels a day tested in a lower zone, and we look forward with anticipation to the testing of the remaining U.'ltested zones higher up in the well. I might add the cautious note that one ~=11 doth not an oil field make, that there have to be a couple of other step out wells drilled, but t..~s is quite encouraging. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, heat! 4435

December 11,1979 Tape No. l7E2 AH-1 MR. SPEJI:r::ER: (Simms) Order, please! The hon. ll'.eD".ber for Baie 'lerte-l~ite Bay. 1·U'.. PIDEO'C'!': Mr. Speaker, first of all in responding to the statemer.t reade by t.'le minister.~·le didinot have a chan~ to see it baforehand so I will not take very long to respond to it other than to say that of course we on this side of the House welcome the news t.'lat the minister has told us and we look forward in eager anticipation to further reports from him and from the group involved in the Chevron well as to progress being made in the further testing of that well.

I think all Newfoundlanders would welcome the news. The minister is right, one well does not an oil field make and 1 of course,one or two announcements from the ll'inister does not make t.'lat either. But we are pleased to be brought np to date with t.'le testing and we look forward to more concrete evidence as it becomes available. SOME F.ON. :.ffi~ERS: Here, here! ORAL QUESTIONS ~. SPEAKER: (Si!!'I!Is) The hen. member for LaPoile. ~R. NT.ARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. the Premier.

In view of the serious situation that developed on the Southwest corner of the Province yesterday ~.,hen1 without warning, , ' t.'le electricity went out in the Channel-Port aux Basques area and on t.'le Southwest corner of the Province, the Light and Power Company employees went on strike leaving the whole area in darkness for fourteen or fifteen hours without any warning and caused tremendous inconvenience and hardship and stlffering to the people in that a,rea, would the hon. t.'le Premier tell the House whether or not he intends to allow this to go on without intervention of some kind on the part of the Premier of this Province who has taken a hand in other labour disputes? !his is a very serious matter and apparently a pattern is developing that the Light and Power employees wit.'l their rotating strikes intend now1whenever a sto ~ , whenever we - and they had a big storm in Port aux Basques yesterda~by the way ~whenever a storm now takes place in~~ area and . 4436

Dec~ber 11,1979 Tape No. 1762 AH-2 ~~e electricity goes out for any reason 1 that they intend to walk off the job and leave the people high and dry. Would the Premier indicate if he ~1ould personally take an interest in this strike and try to get the parties back to the bargaining table and get this matter straightened out, get this labour dispute straightened out before something of a ver1 serious nature occurs? It could have been serious yesterday in the Southwest corner of this Province. MR. SPEAKER: (Sillllns) The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I will undertake to discuss the matter with the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barryl and the l".inister of Labour and Manpower (Mr .Dinnl to ensure that no stone is left unturned in ~~e government's efforts to ensure ~~at the public are prote~ed in ~~is strike and the kind of blackouts that have occured, apparently yesterday ~ecause of the storm, are kept to a minimum and try to eliminate them if at all possible over the life of the strike.

We will do all that we can and I shall personally talk to the Minister of Mines and Energy (~!r .Barry) and the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Dinn) about it who, I am sure)will in their turn try to ensure that the concerns that the hen. member has are protected in t.'le future. MR. NEARY: A supplem~~tary question. 4437 I I

December ll, 197~ 'l.'ape No. 1763 ;)I{ - 1 h su~pie~entar;, ~h~ hon. mcu~er for LaPoile. NR. S. ~iEARY: I tllank the hen. gentieman for his answer, I L1r. Speaker, and I C.o hope and I ·.~auld like for t.'-le Pren.ier to indicate, that this will not just merely mean what we hear from the L1inister of Labour ano: 1-lanpo'fVer (l1r.

Dinn) so of'!:en, t.'l.at a conciliation officer is standing :O;t waiting for either one of the parties to call up the miniscer or his de~artment 1 that the Premier will call_up the international represen­ tative of ti1e Electrical Workers and the company ana try to bring the parties together as quickly as possible. Because this could, if it is allowed to continue,deteriorate into a very serious situation. So I would like to have, again, the reassurance of the Premier t!.at he will personally take an interest in this dispute. MR. SFEAKE.H: The han. Fremier.

P!<EHI£.R PE.CKFORD: I shall personally take an interest in it. There are two points at issue here tnat I t:1ink the hon. men1Jer is concerned about; one, is the strike itself and to try to ensure that government does all in its po,.·er to see that it comes t:o a speeC.y conclusion, a speedy end. And more irr.portantly, that while t.'J.e strike is on ·that storms and the like which might occur, which would necessitate some of the people who are no"' on strike repairing or rectifying a problem, -that soft!how that is taken care of in the interim.

So we will address ourselves to both those issues to ensure that these concerns are carried out and I can assure tne han. member I will take a personal interest and concern on it. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. noember for 'l"erra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Nr. Speaker, I have a question for the Hinister of Labour and c'lanpower.

In view of the extreme seriousness and gravity of the unemployment problem in this Province demonstrated by the labour force statistics just announced by Statistics Canada showing this Province's unemplo~~ent rate at the intolerable and completely unacceptable figure of 14.6 per cent, and the only Province of C:anada to have an i.ncrease in its levels of unemployment for the rr.onth of •-lovernber. ' in view of the seriousness and travesty of this particular situati.on,can the minister i.ndi.cate what innova~ve plans and programmes or what emergen~ plans or 4438

Decemb<!r ll, 1979 Tape tlo. 1763 DW - 2 MR. '!'. i.t;Sh: proqramces or what contingency plans or progr~es or wh~t pl~~s and programmes does the government have in ~d or have initiated to alleviate this treli',endous prcblem tilis winter? M.~. SFEA.t\.ER: (SII'.l·1S) • -i.'t. PL'it.: Tne hon . l".inister of Labour and Manpowe: . Yes, Mr. Speaker, I share the hon. ll!e!I'.Der • 3 concem a.bout. t;le uqe!J?loymene rate in the Province. It. is one t.hat. will not be fixed overnight.

I can t.e11 the hon. member tnat a comparison of these statistics wnioh I believe are not tn.e most accurate -: I welcome the Fe<ieral ?resident of the Treasury Board having a three-:>-r .onged inveseiga -cion into St.atiseics CanaC.a to see if the staeistics can be i.Dproved. l>ut I will also note that for ~Scves:ber 1977, the unec:?loyment rate was 17.9; Nove=er 1378 ~~e une~loyli'.ent rate was 16 . 5 anc ~ovember of this year , l979,it was 14.6 and I do believe t.~e hon . me:tber will agree that there is an improvement ,,..ith re<>pect t:0 what the goverrur.ent , in =nsultation .,..ith t.tle Fece ral Goverm1::ent1 is going to do.

SCI:le of the ?rog ramr;es -.:ill .:e announcec!, hopeful ly,in the Fea:ral 4439

December 11, 1979 Tape 1764 PK - 1 Mr .. Dinn: Budget and further elaboration will be made by the Minister of Manpower and Immigration (.Mr. Atkey) as the Budget debate goes on. MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the han. member for T~ra Nova.

In view of the Provincial Government's announced commitment to create 40,000 in this Province over the next four or five years, and we have never been able to straighten out actually whether the 40,000 jobs announced by the Premier, the present Premier, were on top of the 40,000 jobs that were announced by the previous Administration, :~ have never been able to get a clear picture of that particular situation 1 but that aside, in view of the government's announced commitment to create 40,000 over the next four or five years, can the minister indicate, one, whether these 40,000 jobs will be jobs created soley and Wholly at the Provincial Government's initiative or whether they are in combination with any plans of the Fede~al Government might have in mind?

And secondly, how do ~~ese figures today fit in with any flow charts that -the government have made wi'f;h respect to the creation of these 40,000 jobs? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, with respect to that question it would require a very detailed answer. I do not know if we have enough.time in Question Period, and I would not want to take up Question Period with just answering that question.

But the fact of the matter is, as the Premier outlined in the House of Assembly three weeks ago 1 that the employment picture which is positive ·, the han. member states the positive side of it, is improving on a year to year basis • SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear' MR. DINN: The 40,000 jobs that the hen. Premier alluded to earlier are additional jobs over and above what jobs we will create with the positive trend ~hat has been created over the past three or four years. The 40,000 jobs are additional jobs that we anticipate 4440

December 11 1 1979 Tape 1764 ?K - 2 Mr. Dinn: with five year plans from all of the resource departments that are bei,ng developed now, and with the plans that the Federal Gov~t h<I!S. So we hope to have a co-ordination of p2."0qrilllllles rather than the type of progr;mmes we · have had over ......... the past few years so that i,n the next five years we anticipate that there wiJ.l be 40,000 additional. jobs for Newfoundl.allders in this Province. S~ HON. MEMSERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH.: A supplement.;lry, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAX,ER (.SIMlo!S l : A final supplementary, the bon. member for Terra Nova. MR.

LUSR: On the basis of these 40,000 jobs, and this considered with the fact that the la:bour force in this Province grows at abooqt the rate of 6,000 to 8,000 a year, which, l.et us take it at the l.owest fig'ure of 6,000 a year, over .five years this would mean 30,000 new entrants into the 1~ f .orc.e 1 how c;an the minister justify the fact that the creation of these 40,000 ' jobs, and considering the growth of the labour force, the yearly growth of the labour fbrce, how these 40,000 jobs will bring o11r Unemployment rate down to 10 per cent, as: .again was announced by the gover;nment? 444:1

Decerrber ll, 1979 'lape No. 1765 D\'1 - l MR. SP:i::.AKER: (SWHS) The hon. ltinister of r..aoour and l-1anpower. 1-I:R. J. OI.:<N: ~ell, that is relatively simple to do mathematically or otherwise, r~r.

Speaker, If the hon. 1r.ember were to note just +--'le normal ~ecrease in the unemplo}'1:1ent rate from 17.9 to 16.5 to 14. 6, that to go aJ.ong for the next four or five years . , plus the 40,000 jobs ~o;e anticipate creatin<; as a result of ti1e programmes, as I have s~ateci earlier 1 aeveloped by a co-ordination of ~~e resource c.iepartllents and. the Federal Government 1 ~>·e anticipate that in that five years,certainly,we will be do~n below 10 per cent,and we do visualize a resattlement progra=<e from tile main!.and part of Canada back to <iewfound- land. ~IR. SPEAiG.R: The han.

Leader of the Opposition. ;'!r.

Speaker, I would like as a supplementary to direct a .:;:uestion to the Pretr.ier in his capacit.t as i-linister of Inter- govermnental 1.ffa.irs. aecause there appears to l:.e contir.uing confusion over ~>·he~'ler or not the statistics are accurate-.:: do not ~'link I am misquoting the Prel!'ier hil!'.self 1 I think at one ;;;oint he said that the new yard- sticks -,..ere necessary· to a.ssess unemplOJ-ment ir~ this Provin:::e - given the fact that r.u:mbers opposite and ~'le government itself some twelve or so rr:enths ago indicated that the real rate of unemployment was substantially ( lligher 1 and that figure also, by the way,was attributed to the present Minister of Fisheries· for Canada (~I.

McGrath) who said that the rate grossly underestimated the nwnber of unemployed, what I would like to ask the Premier is a double-barrelled question if I may. First of aJ.l,is he satisfied tnat the Statistics Canada figures are an accurate reflection now and,sacond, in connection with the studies being undertaken by the Economic Council of Cang.da at the request of the Government of ~ewfoundlanci 1 is the unexr.ploy- rnent or emplop.ent pictt~;;:e 1 whichever way one \,ishes t.::> state it, being examined by that group and when ll"light we have some information from that stud~·? MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. - 4442

December 11, 1979 Tape :-1o. 1765 01-i - 2 PREMU.R PE:Ci<FORD: There are lies, lies and <iamn statistics. l;'irst of all 1 tile M.Uaister of Labour and Manpower ana lli'.{Self and some cf his officials have, over tile last nlllllber of weeks and mont.'ls 1been talking at soUJe lenqth abou .t tilis whole question of 10h;lt should go into reflecting an unemployment rate or an emplol{l1lellt rate for a p:rov'..nce and wilat criteria should be used and whether it should be different from what Statistics caniida and the. Federal Gove:rn­ v.ent use now.

So it depends on what you put in to the front end of the pipe, ~o~hat comes out at the back end. We are looking at th.at now and hopefu1l;j' over the next year or so we will .be allle to brin9 on sufficient individual.s in the Department of Labour and ll'.anpower t.o reflect what we would clasaify as - \What Newfoundlanders would cl;LSsify as a .'Jewfoundland rate of uneq>lOYJDBnt as opposed to or distinct from what is now being said bY the Federal authorities Who use a more national yar~tic:k and national criteria 'Nhicil might not always be tOtally 100 per ~t cwplicable in all cases.

And then, what percentage of the women 'Nho worked - it is like the n.ember for Huni:>er Valley, tile Minister of liealtil (Mr. House) always says allout the Wlemployment, .two years ago in Jackson's Azm, White Bay, there were no f.isll planb 4443

December 11,1979 Tape No. 1766 AH-1 PREMIER PECKFORD : and then last year a fish plant was constructed and put into operation and forty women from that community, Jackson's Arm, got ~tork fer the first time in a fish plant in Jackson's Ann. So last Winter there was an appreciable jack in the unemployment rate in Jackson's Arm because now these ladies who had never worked before did work and now they were reflected in the unemployment statistics.

I do not know if you use that as a yardstick to increase your unempl~~nt rate or not but it seems to me ~~at,therefore,the more you get working in a seasonal activit~· in Newfoundland/ the higher your unemployment rate is going to be in the Wintertime. So one has to determine what the criteria are. So my number one point would simply be we are looking at the possibilities of developing an unemployment rate ourselves, if you will, and publishing it at the s~e time as the federal one to just see whether we can get some - whether there is any benefit in doing that or not.

We are investigating that right now to see if there is any benefit to it. I have talked to people who are doing these studies, the Economic Council of Canada. About three weeks ago they were down, and I had a long discussion with them as it relates to how they view the Newfoundland economy as opposed to perhaps some economist, a Newfoundland economist viewing it and the whole question of unemployr.;ent and ew.ployment and they are studying that whole question of employment and unemployment and it will be an integral part of their report. That is moving along on

schedule and I forget what the timE frame is right ' now off the top off my head 1 but I will be able to get it shortly. They should be making their report, I guess, sometime in the Spring or Summer at which time, of course 1 we will make it~public a~d it might be a good document for debate in this House later-on.

But, yes, they are involved in .the whole question of unemployment and employment and patterns of development and patterns of movement of population and so on within t.'le Province, and the role of the fishery ·and so on, and we have tried to insure that it just does not become an academic document by people who have certain fixed ideas 1 and their blinkers 1 on from Ontario or wherever .4444

December 11,1979 Tape No. 1766 AH-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: so that we do not really get any truer reflection of what the state of our econOI'Iy is than if they did not do the study at all. ~.R. SPEAKER: (Simns) the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: ,,' ·. A supplementary, the hon. Leader of Mr.

Speaker, I would,as a supplementary to the Premier, like to ask him,given the fact that it is now increasingly evident that considerable numbers of bureaucrats and perhaps politicians, on the Mainland,are tending to feel that the unemployment rate in Newfoundland is being misstated; and given the fact that there is what I consider to be a distressing growth in the amount of comment being heard, both within the Province and outsid~ about the lac~ of necessity anymore for social programmes; unemployment insurance, modifications being needed in the like, beca~e of the so-called distortions to which the Premier has referred 1 but given the fact ~~t members opposite themselves have often stated the fact that the unemployment figure for this Province as stated officially was lower than the real level of unemployment - and the Premier made some reference to it, Mr.

Speaker,with regard to the participat~on rate which is the lowest in Canada, given all of those facts my worry and I would like to put it in the form of a question, is the Premier, in keeping with his assertiveness with regard to the Newfoundland rights, the Newfoundland posi tion1 4445

December 11, 1979 Tape No. 1767 SD - 1 MR. D. JAMIESON: ensuring that no changes are made in the levels and the form of payment of assistance and unemployment illsurance until such time as we have far more clarity than we have at the mon.:mt?~ Because,if I may say so, I think that if this is not put to rest it is a reflection, indeed, on some of our Newfoundland workers, that is, that a great many of them are supposedly hangashores and I think the Premier would agree with me that that simply is not true. b'.R. SPEAKER: (Simms) The han. the Premier. P~~ER PECKFORD: I can assure the hon.

Leader of the Opposition that we are doing every~~ing we can to argue forcibly with the federal authorities and with the ministers responsible and other ministers, you know, and view with a great deal of concern some oi the statements that have been made relative to certain social programmes which I tr.ink will remain for a long period of time as an integral part of the overall economic and social system in this country because there will be ups and downs in different parts of the countiy.

You will not have - you can look at it from a NASSAU point of view and say you are better off ten years from now but there will always be peaks and valleys and hopefully the valley in the next ten years will be Ontario and some other place and that the peak will be here.But then again,the longevity of that kind of peak, one never knows and so you always have those and hence, social programmes at a fairly high level will always be necessary.

And hence, I can assure the hon. gentleman that I am very cognizant of that and we will continue to push and <U:gue strongly for a high level of input financially by the federal government in ~'.Jcial. programmes now existing, and to try to be a little more =eative and inno=tive in new programmes that might come forward because we still have a long way to go. I see that reflected in our own social programmes that the Minister of Social Services (Mr. T. Hickey) is always arguing for before Cabinet and Treasury Board 1 almost every second week.

And people who, just this morning 1 were in to see me for various things - the widows and · 4446

December 11, 1979 Tape No. 1767 so - 2 P~UER PECKroRD: other people who find it very hard to make a living ,and to make ends meet and to pay their oil bill in the Wintertime. And so I appreciate what the hon. Leader of the Opposition says and indicate to him that when it comes to social programmes,! am on the progressive side of the Progressive Conservative Party. SOME I:ION. MEl.'IBERS : Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans followed by the hon. member for Stephenville. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. G. FLIGHT: - and it is relative to the Upper Salmon project, the hydro development of the Upper Salmon.

As the minister knows the road is now under construction, I understand ~here is some site preparation going on by Hydro themselves, there are people on the ' site in the various areas that will be undertaken, there are pre-tender documents being arranged before tender calling, I ~nder if the minister would assure the House that he is satisfied that the work going on to date, aod that in letting tender documents, that all the recommendations of the various people that are charged with making sure that that project is done in a way that will minimize any damage ' 4447

December 11, 1979 Tape 1768 PK - 1 Mr. Flight: to the total environment in the area1 that he is satisfied to date that indeed all of the recollll!lendations of the environmentalists or the people responsible for guaranteeing that we minimize the environm:ntal damage , is indeed - that is the situation 1 that the project is being approached in a way tc minimize all the damages possible? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BAF.RY: Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to assure the han. member that all reconnnendations of everybody interested i..."l the environment have been followed.

I am sure they have not. There are good recommendations and there are bad recommendations. But I have had nothing brought to my attention in the last several months by either Hydro officials or members of the general public raising concerns about the way in which the project is being carried on. I have had no concerns raised or brought to my attention by anybody. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Specifically, Mr.

Speaker, I will indicate to the minister that I have become aware from fairly knowledgeable sources, and I do not say that this is a fact, I am going to ask the minister's assurance that it is not a fact, that Hydro's original intention was to clear cut the reservoir, the Upper Salmon reservoir, the flooded area, and that there is now some concern and there is some thought that that may not indeed happen,that the reservoir may not be clear cut and may be. flooded as is. Is there any truth to that possibility. and would the minister confirm whether or not Hydro is thinking along those lines? MR. SPEAKER: The han.

Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, again I am speaking from memory now but it seems to me that the decision was whether the entire area should be clear cut or whether it would be sufficient to cut the edges of the reservoir where the waters would stop and to cut anywhere where the wood would intrude above the surface of the reservior. 4448

December 11, 1979 Tape 1768 PK - 2 Mr. Barry: And I would have to check for the hen. member to see what the - I have known but I just honestly do not recall whether the ultimate decision was to completely cut or just to cut around the edges of the reservoir, but I will find out for the hen. member. MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): A final supplementary, the hen. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, my understanding at the time was that Hydro indicated that there would be a total clear cut, that we would not make the same mistake we made in the original Bay d'Espoir development. MR. BARRY: MR. FLIGHT: There was no cutting. There was no cutting. But what becomes very important in this situation if Hydro changes its mind, and if there is not indeed going to be total clear cutting - the minister knows that one of the fears that the people responsible have in this Province is what that project will do to the caribou herds frequenting the area of the Upper Salmon.

And it is apparently an established fact that the very area we are talking about flooding is the area that they use in migrating, swimming and that kind of thing. And in · any brush at all that is left in the area, in the reservoir that we form, then 1 I mean, every professional man, everybody who knows anything about 4449

Dece~~er ll, 1979 Tape ,jo. 1769 DW - l l'>.R. "'· FLIGhT: the n.igration habits of Caribou 1 that in itself will le a detri.I;-,ent to that tl'Pe of migration and I submit to the minister he should accept nothing.less than . clear cutting. l1R. SPE.'U<ZR: (Sll'll'"..

S) NR. L. :aARRY: The hen. ltinister of Hines and Energy. o'lell, Mr. Speaker, just at first glance I would have to question that state!!".ent just wade by tile non. mewber. If ti1ere were trees left in the very center of where the reservoir is going to be and if those trees are covere~, ~y,we will sa1 as an exaF~le ten feet of water, I have ~y doubts somehow, Mr. Speaker, ~~at that would interfere with the Caribou unless t.1ey are scuba diving i.ll the reservoir.

If the eG;ges of the reservoir are clear cut 1 and i::: ~1e •,;ater depths through­ out the reservoir are a sufficient height above any trees that migi::lt be left in certain inaccessible areas, then, Mr. Speake~, I would submit tnat that,I believe,would be accep~le. aut I will get tne precise infor­ mation for the xr.ember as··:to wha-=. exactly is proposed. MR. SPEA."<ER: The hon. member for Stephenville followed by the hen. rr.ember for eagle River. M.". F. STAGG: Yes, Mr. Speaker, tnank you very ffiUCh for recQgnizing me.

I am again rehearsing for the year 2000 when we get into Ofposition and have the opportunity to ask questions. 1his is an extra­ ordinaz}· day; Mr. 3feaker, and it is only on extraordinary · days t~~t a ~embe~ on the gove~.ent side would ask a question. In light of the obvious Oisappoin~'tlent showed :by the Op,!Josition in the announcement by the t·1inister of the Mines and Energy (Hr. Barry) today1 I ·,.;auld li.ke to ask fiim a question concerning his announcement concerning the hibernia test. I understand that the test was on a six netre portion of the well and that it was at 2,600 bar~els per day.

I would like for him t•· , :'....~o:J.ir,ate to tlle House to the best of his l>no·,.;ledge 1 ana he l:lay have all the information or. this, how many metres of oil bearing formations there are in t.1ia we:l and if he would give us a reasonable extrapolation of what ~1is could mean in barrels per day for the entire well? (Inaudible) the au~~or. 1450

Oecel!.ber 11, 1979 Tape ;-.;o . 1769 o~: - 2 I"IR. F. STAGG: Yes, I wrot:e that: myself . >es, :.> t ob vious y you fellows lii.d no -c wan-e it answere _d today and then I h11-ve a s~ppl e mentarf, ~tr . Speaker . Order , please! I do not. see an answer. 'he non . .tini s ce r of Hin es and hnerg-; . £·1R. t. . <!AiL~: Hr. Speaker, I would reall y like to be able to ans-,;er that <iuestior, but I c anr.ot. SOME liear , ~ea liB. • L . 3i<JUU' : So much for the allegat:ions o= a stage ..;.uest:ion .

H.r. speaker, the only info=.ation chat we can release is that:. theri!! are other nyd ro carbon bea r ing z ones !lig ' ar in the "ell. . tne r e are a nUir.oer of these whic• remain to be testeC: and a p reviou:; stateC'.ent in · · cated that t..1ese exte::td ove::: a conside .rable O,ept:, or t-iti.ckness. '1':1e previous state ll!ent was misincer;?reted to mean that it ;.;as continuou T~at was not sale, It Might or mignt not be 4451

December 11,1979 Tape No. 1770 1\H-1 MR. BA:<F'Y: ccntinuous.No:rn:ally,I suggest it is fair to say,would not be,but it might or might not be1 but there are a n~ber of other hydrocarbon· zones higher up in the well which will be tested over the next few weeks. In fact , they will be commencing testing of the the next day. MR.SPEAKER: (Sil!'il1'

s) AN HON.MEME.ER: !1R. SPF.AKER: next zone higher up right away,within The hon. m~er for Eagle River. A supplementary. If the hon. m~b~r for Eagle River wishes to :,•ield the couple of :ninutes remaining it is up to hir. .• The hon. member for Eagle River. MR.HISCOCK: I would like to direct my question to t.~e Premier concerning the ~Tothern cod stocks. Mr .McGrath has made an announcement that basically 100,000 metric tons are going to be devoted to t.~e inshore fishermen, 45,000 tons are going to be set aside for the Canadian quota and 25,000 metric tons for foreign and Spanish fleets.

I would like to ask the Premier if he has changed his mind with regard to the size of the boats for the Labrador fishermen? From Henley Harpour NorL; it is twenty-five foot boats and then farther sout.; they have to be twenty-five feet or more. The people in Red Bay and other parts of the South coast want to have them twenty-two feet. Also, basically t_;ey are saying they want uniformity on the coast. Instead of cutting it off and saying you can only build a certain size boat up from Henley Harbour North and t.~en 1 all!o 1 a certain size boat from Henley Harbour south 1 they want uniformity on the coast.

J\nd the second thing is with regard to these longliners being built, these twenty longliners, how many of these are going to be for the Labrador coast?And the third question, I wrote the Premier with regard to a :~c~i~l boat building programme for the Labrador coast. Here we have 100,000 metric tons for the Labrador coast, the Northeast coast. Basically, if we are going to make use of that , how can the fishermen make use of this 1 particularly · when there is no bank on the coast to arrange a loan from and,as I said, I think that, basically, some building •1452

December 11,1979 Tape No. 1770 AH-2 MR.!!ISCOCK: programme should be instated for the people as well as uniformity on the coast? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! I want to suggest to the hon.me~ber ~~at he ~~ght wish to place that question on the Oreer Paper. It is rather lengthy. The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I will try and give a short answer to it Mr.Speaker.

Point number one, I am not aware that there is any law which says that a certain size boat must be built on the Labrador coast but I think ~~ere are certain subsidies which are available for certain length boats and it cuts off part way up the Larrador coast. But the phraseology used by the hen. member would imply ,if taken at ~ace value, the words that the hen. member actually uttered 1 that there was something which said that somebody could only build a certain size boat. I know the hen. member did not mean that but the incentives provided do lean towards different size boats being ~uilt on the Labrador coast.

I think ~~at is a little bit different than the hen. member said . I recognize that ~~at problem exists and whether ""e can do anything about it - I will take it under advisement right now. I appreciate the question and understand it ,having fished off the Labrador coast myself one time, out of Mary's Harbour and out of Battle Harbour and out of Matties Cove , Indian Cove, Lodge Bay and Cape Clarles and Square Islands, Tub Harbour and Snug Harbour, George's Cove and William's Harbour, Sandy Hook, Port Hope Simpson.

Secondly, the twenty boats that will be built, whether any of those will be charged against the Labrador fishery or not or somebody from Labrador will get one of these boats or build one of those boats, I do not know, I cannot answer the question, it will depend on whether they fit ~~e requirements of the programme. There is nothing there which indicates that they would nct,or whether some person who lives on the Island of Newfoundland who builds one of these twenty will be fishing of tl1e Labrador coast or not. So there are many ~o~ays in· which one of L~ose boats might have access to Labrador fish.

It could be because a Labradorian qualifies and builds one of these boats or a ~ewfoundlander, 4453

Dec~ber 11.1979 ':'ape l'o . l7i") r;:-3 a boat and goes to the Labrador. 'l'hera aro many, rr.ar.y ways in which !.abracor fish can ~e tal:e:: of! t.'":e t.abraeor coas~.one o! whic!:"! is ::o have a ~radorian ca~ch it and ~~other is to have an Island Newfoundlande r ?uild a boat and qo down and catch it. But no Labradorian is excluded and if they r.>eet t.'":e requirell'ents of the proqrawr.e the!"\ that ~til! !:'e one of the twenty. Thirdly, as it relates to a separate building 4454

December 11, 1979 Tape 1771 PK - 1 Premier Peckford: programme for the Labrador Coast 1 that might be a good idea for us to consider.

Giving the fact that the hon. membar mentioned about the banks, we have not signed any agreement with the banks yet, we are still negotiating and we will not sign an agreement unless we can be assured that it is going to work smoothly and efficiently and all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians will have access to the funds without having to go through any additional problems,especially- those people on the Labr.il.dor Coast where 1as. the hon. has pointed out, banking facilities are not what one would classify as one on every corner.

I would also like to respond anci address the whole issue of 100,000 metric tons, which the hon. member mentioned was the amount of fish off Labrador, and than I think the hon. member did mention the Northaast Coast.That 100,000 metric tons is the amount that the federal authorities 1 apparently 1 from what the hon. member said, because I have not heard this figure yet for 1980 - in 1979 I know what it was, it was around 108,000 metric tons - have indicated out of the 180,000 metric tons total allowable catch, they are going to say, arbitrarily 1 that 100,000 metric tons are allocated for the inshore fishery from Cape St.

Mary's to Gape Chidley. · It is the Labrador inshore fishery, it is the Northeast Coast inshore fishery, and it is the East Coast inshore fishery, so it takes in a lot of communit~es and a lot of fishermen. My only response here: I have not heard that the Federal Government has announced what the quotas will be for 1980, and we , of course, stick to our position that we can use all our fish here in the Province and , you know, we view with a great dea! of concern and alarm the present ways of going about allocating tha Northern cod. NR. SEAKER (SIMMS): Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. ·1455

December 11, 1979 Tape 1771 ?K- 2 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hen. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) had the question dealing with ponies, and I undertook in a very serious vein to provide the han. member with some answers to those very vital and important ques~ions. I checked on the matter of horses and ponies being exported from the Province.

As a result of concerns expressed over the past two months,~ monitoring has been done by the Health of Animals Branch of Agricultural canada as follows: September 25, a shipment of thirty-one horses; October 7, a shipment of forty-five horses and twenty sheep; now, I am sorry if the han. member left out the sheep yesterday in his question, and I take it that he still wants to hear about sheep as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: the han. member's eyes. MR. STAGG: PREMIER PECKFORD: and fifteen cows- SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: four cows. MR. STAGG: SOME HON.

MEMBERS : PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. CARTER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, oh! No. I will not attempt to pull the wool over What kind of boots does he wear? November 5, a shipment of thirty-two horses Hear, hear! No goats? November 18, a shipment of thirty-two horses and And ten Liberals. Oh, oh! December 7, a shipment of fourteen horses. No pigs? And December 9, a shipment of seventeen horses and two cows. The Health of Animals Branch does this under the authority of the Animal Diseases and Protection Act, a

section of which specifies standards and conditions for the loading and transportation of animals. Health. of Animals have received reports back from their staff in Truro, Nova Scotia, saying that animals on the first four shipments named 4456

December 11, 1979 Tape 1771 PK - 3 ?rem.ier Peckford: above were in good condition at Truro. Reports on the last two shipments have not yet been received. SOME BON • M&'fBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECJ<FORD: Health of AAimals personnel have asked for reports fr0111 the ?rovince of Quebec which is tile destination of the horses. So we do not only export power to Quebec, Mr. Speaker, we are now in the business of exporting horses. SO..'!E HON • ME.'IBERS: Horsepower! PRE.'UER ?EC.'<FORD: Horsepower. But nothing has been received there yet.

Provinc~al agricultural staf f assist by reporting shipments of animals when they have occasion to know about them. Bealth of Animals personnel do not know i£ they have monitored all shipments or not. They will be glad to do it, but they must depend on tbe assistance of others to advise when trucks are being loaded with animals. 4457 •

Decemper 11, 1979 Tape No. 1772 NM- 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: The provincial Protection of Animals Act allows the Society for ~~e Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, SPCA, to take animals in distress into custody. Distress is defined, back in my Psychology I days, distress is defined as the state of being in need of proper care, food or shelter, or of being injured, sick or in pain, or of suffering undue or unnecessary hardship, privation or neglect. Mr. Speaker, I am distressed. MR. NEARY: The whole Province is - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: I understand that the SPCA have also monitored some shipmentsof horses, both here and on the Mainland, but as a result had no justification for any action. The local Equestrian Club, another actor in this very serious drama, has now unleashed itself upon us, has discussed its concerns with the Provincial Agricultural staff. L• response the Agricultural branch put an

article in its°Farm Forum publication, a mailing list of 500 to 600, advising people to be sure to get fair market value for their animalP and to consider the long-term consequences of selling too many ponies, thu~ depleting future generat~ns of the population. And, additionally 1 the Equestrian Club has, and I am very happy to report and announce, has made a request to the Canadian Livestock Eecords, to register the Newfoundland pony as a breed of horses. To my knowledge no response has yet been received. Thank you, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I am filing annual reports for 1977-78, and 1978-79 of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation in response to question number 58. AN HON. MEMBER: Do you have - MR. BARRY: I have no idea. Sorry. 1458

December 11, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. HISCOCK: Tape No. 1772 NM- 2 PRESENTING PETITIONS: The han. member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of the rasidents of Fa~ Harbour, and the prayer of this petition - it is not often I have the occasion to compliment the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.

Brett) in this House but with regard to the road work that was done in the community of Fox Harbour, where the minister went in and made the foreman and workmen there do extra work in putting down extra culverts and as a result improving the quality of a road I would say as high as 200 per cent, so I would like to go on record now as complimenting the minister for taking that action.

But,also 1 while this road was being constructed in Fox Harbour, one of the people down in the bottom disagreed with having the road pass in front of his house so as a result he ended up going to the foreman ana the fo~eman ended up suggesting that.if they were going to have the protest,then they should meet at a certain point in the road at a certain time at which they did. And as a result the road was diverted from the original route on up over the bank and now as a result the people down in the bottom, ten houses, are no longer connected by this road, not no longer connected, were never connected.

So the prayer of this petition is that these ten houses down in the bottom be connected up some time in the future and that the Minister of Transportation and Communications provide the money for this. As I said before, this basically is a result of the foreman's action of encouraging the people to launch the protest. But as a result,there are now ten families dow.n there that do not have the facility of the road in any way and I L~ink it is a little bit annoying to see a road, or over $200,000, come into a community and now not be able to use these facilities. ·1459

December 11, 1979 'l'l!.,?e No. t772 NM - 3 MR. HISCOCK: Thac is the praye r of this petition, and I would like to table this pet~tion on behalf of the 22 voters who live in these houses. MR. SPEAl<ER (Simms ) : The hon. member for Tornqat Mountains. MR. ~'ARREN: Mr. Speaker, I wou1d like to speak in support of the petition presented by my colleague fro~ the Southern a.rea of Labrador. H~·ting a). so represented small communities in . Labrador West with no roads, and cominq out here around St.

John • s and seeing all t:.he cars and trucks and highways and everything else, it is really good to see partial roads in those communities along the Labrador Coast . I believe my colleague did say that probably &bout ~~ee-qua.rters to seven-eights of the community is connected by road and there is only j ust a small segment in the co1r.munity of Fox Barbour that does not have the facility , a publ~c highway: 4.460

December ll, 1979 Tape No.l773 SD - 1 MR. G. WARRE.~: Mr. Speaker, in this day and age when we see our Department of Transportation and Communications moving out into many areas of Newfoundland and Labrador and improving our roads, it is only natural that we will see more in the years to come with the road conditions on the Labrador coast. Fox Harbour is just one of many communities that has a very poor road system and anything that the minister oculd do and that the government could do to bring all the people in Fox Harbour - St. Louis together under one road system I am sure would be appreciated by all.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order 2. Third reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Relating To The Establishment And Administration Of Municipal Government In The Province~. {No, 58). On motion, Bill No. 58 read a third time ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. MARSiiALL: Order 15. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Provision Of Lower Cost Prescription Drugs," (Bill NO, 12) , MR. SPEAKER: SOME liON, MEMBERS : MR. W. HOUSE: MR. S. NEARY: MR. W. HOUSE: The hon. the Minister of liealth. Hear, hear.

Mr. Speaker, Do not forget the senior citizens? - it gives me great pleasure to introduce this bill, "An Act TO Provide For The Provision Of Lower Cost Prescription Drugs". Last year, Mr. Speaker, my predecessor announced in the House that the government would be devising legislation to provide for generic dispensing of certain prescription 4461.

December ll, 1979 Tape No. 1773 SD - 2 MR. W. HOUSE: drugs throughout the Province and I am very happy to be following up on that particular announcement. AS the Minister of Healt:h and as a member of the government, I am sure I speak for the government, I am concerned about the cost of drugs to consumers and I think I can speak for just about everybody in this House in that respect. I would not suggest that there is any simple way to significantly reduce the cost of drugs but there are many approaches that can be taken to achieve this objective but it would be unfair to suggest that it is a simple matter.

And I am sure anybody who has got any awareness of the drug industry, t.':ley know it is not simple.because it is a complicated matter wi~':l pricing, marketing policies and 1 also 1·,dth the volume of drugs that are on the market and it is not very easily understood by most people. The oQject then of this bills, I want to point out, is to then reduce and I want to emphasize that word 'reduce' and not control the cost of certain drugs to consumers by requiring that pha=a.cists substitute a lower cost but high quality and therapeutically effective interchangable dr~g.

And there are two points that I would like to make at the beginning, two major points in this respect, One,is that a mandatory generic substitution policy will only apply to a certain high list or a I select list of high quality drugs and high volume drugs and they will be outlined in a formulary which is under compilation now and obviously it can not be completed yet. And the second one, and I think this is very important the second point, is that the generic dispensi ·.<; ~l i.cy will not apply where a doctor indicates in handwriting that no substitution is to take place.

When he says, RPlease do not substitute': it will not be mandatory to substitute. MR. E • ROBERTS: In other words, it will not be permissible! 1462

December 11, 1979 Tape 1774 EC - 1 MR. HOUSE: ·rnat is right. It will not be permissible. And he does not even have to say 'please' 1 he does not have to be mannerly about it, he will just say, 'Do not substitute.' MR. NEARY: (inaudible) MR. HOUSE: The !:linUte you take your eyes off tile you get lost. I am not getting lost, Mr. Speaker, and the hon. member, if he wants to hear what I have to say, can. listen and then he can have a say . MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. HOUSE: I am doing quite well. Mr. Speaker, mere are a couple of reasons for having certain drugs.

There are certain reasons because we have to certainly look at the number of drugs, we cannot take all the drugs there are and categorize them all - it would be too cosUy. So we are looking at the high volume drugs. And the other reason, of course, for stating that a doctor may indicate that he does not want substitution is because of the fact t.'lat sometimes we get people who depend on a specific drug t.~at they have been having. And I use diazepan as an exal:lple. A person may be used to vivol and when they get the lower cost drug, they may refuse it because they have been always used to a SPLCific one.

And that is a good reason for a doctor to be able to say that t.'lere is no substitution. For over a decade, I think perhaps since the late 1960s 1 there has been a number of provinces practicing some features of generic drug dispensing, but as I recall it, there was nothing mandatory until the early 1970s in Manitoba. What it was, the Quad, I believe it was, the federal branch, stated that there is a number of drugs that can be interchanged, but they did not make it mandatory, and as a result, of course, it did not work, because pharmacists were still selling their select drugs. MR. ROBERTS : HR.

HOUSE: MR. aoBERi'S: (Inaudible) prescribing. And selling. (Inaudible) •

December 11, 1979 Tape 1774 EC - 2 MR. HOUSE: No, the doctors were prescribing and they were selling, of course, the drugs that the doctors were pres=ibing. ~1R. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) surely, if a doctor is subscribing and not knowing what he is pres=ibing - MR. HOUSE: Well, he was prescribing a certain brand name rather than the generic name. MR. ROBERTS : Yes, because he did not know the generic name or because it is more difficult to spell the generic name. MR. HOUSE: Yes. Well, right now, I think, what this will do - if he pres=ibes a brand name, the druggist will be obligated to dispense the generic na~re.

MR. NEARY: MR. HOUSE: Why not let the expert get up there? I know who the expert is. I know the expert in drug dispensing. There is one over here and one across the way. Mr. Speaker, the hon. ~~ember is very dis appointed to see somebody else standing up. He wants to have his bionic .mouth going all the time. I think it would be wise for him to keep quiet and let me say what I have to say. Mr.

Speaker, I just wanted to point out that J.'.anitoba, I think, was the first province that made it mandatory that you have substitution of lower cost, interchangeable drugs: Now, I am not going to be long on this, because I just want to point out that there has been a lot of debate go on, there have been a lot of provinces that have already gone into t..'"lis, a lot of them by permissive legislation and a lot by, of course, mandatory legislation.

But what the argument and debate has done is it has stated that the only drugs to be interchanged are those t..'lat are of an acceptaiJle quality and also those that are chemically equivalent, and that is, to have the same number or the same quantity of ingredients in it. The other thing, of course, is that t..'J.ey have to be therapeutically equivalant, and that is within reason, because, as I understand it, you cannot determine fully whether it is going to be "4464

December 11, 1979 Tape 1774 EC - 3 :1..R. HOOSE : therapeutically equivalent . No\~, we have not t:-1e capacity in this Province, of course - and I eo not th.ir.k there is any need for us to - we are going to set up a committee of two pha.rma .c.ists, two C.octors and a member from the Department of Health to compile the fornu1ary. Thae is already taking place now but it is r.ot finalized yet. l':td the reason why it is not finalized yet is because , of course, we have not 4465

December 11,1979 Tape No. 1775 AH-1 MP.. HOUSE: approved the bill, but we are going to de~end on the expertise that we have in Canada who have tested all these drugs and decided t..\}at they are equivalent. And we are also going to look at what has happened in some of the other provinces. I just mentioned that we are going to have two druggists, two pharmacists, two physicians and I think there will be an official from t..~e Depa~ent of Eealth on th±s and we thi~~ this will have to be revised from time to time because 1 of course 1 there are always new drugs coming on the market. So , Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to belabor this any longer. I do have a fair number of notes here and I can go back into the history of this but I think , suffice it to sa~ that it is a fairly simple bill. It just states mandatory substitution, select hig~ volumn drugs only and,of course,these have all been tested by the federal group called Quad,~hich is Quality Drug Assessment. There is no substitution. Generic drugs will not take place where a doctor directs in his own han~1riting that a prescription must be filled as he states.

Dispensing fees, and this is s~ething I want to emphasize: the legislation will not 1 because there is a pharmaceutical act and we are not going to talk about dispensing fees here. It fs not controlled at all. The legislation '"'ill not apply to the dispensing or the professional fee·and I want to p~int out that practically two-thirds of t..~e drugs dispensed in the Province are dispensed through a t..~ird party or for t..~ird party payment.

We have about 600,000 prescriptions per year for indigent drugs and I guess there is a little more than that paid for by such things as the Great West Life, The Blue Cross and other insurance companies. Sc these dispensing fees will be negotiated and I want to point out it will be illegal to sell drugs for any mo~ than the formulary price states. NOW, Mr. Speaker, it is my hope that this bill will mean a saving for a great many consumers who will be required to purchase drugs that are listed in the formulary. I am not going to say what these savings will be. I do not t.~ink anybody can say at this point in time.

There are people who will say - MR. NEARY: Will they be significant? · 1466

Decembe r 11,1979 Tape tlo . 1775 :ie ll,l stat e d t.~at I co not know whethe r it will !:le significant or not .At this point in til"e I cannot sa}· b-ut the only thing that I can say :.s t.'lat ir. reviewin g t.~e formul.aries of other provinces, whic.'l we :-.ave been looking at and particularly at Mani toba 1 the prices for interc.~anc;eable drugs vary from five to ten cents :>er pill . You can look at t.'le diazepan and so~::eti~s ant.irio tics, l«>k and see that muc.'1 variation.

So ,ob viously 1 t.'1e~e woul~ have co be- it is eifficult for us not to be able to say t.'1at t.~e re is going ~9 te a saving. !f you can s ave ten cents on a ?ill, for high vol~n ~ills , that has to ccnstit~ta a savL~g. Mr. Speaker, I am not going t o predict !:hat it will be overly siqni!ica."lt 1 ! eo not kr.~1 . 3ut ! t!:i:\.~ :.-: is a great step >;..'lat we are taking . !t is the r igh t r.ove ar.c! - :.!R ~JI.P.Y : It !s a farce. XR. F.Ot:SE: I co not t.~ink it is a farce,~!:'.

Speak er, I just st ated that if you can save ten cents on a p i ll and scrumoey has to talte three or !:o'.l.r a cay - MR.m:ARY: anc tl':<"t is it. _:1?.8005£: All a doc tor has to say is no sub s titute :·!::. SpeaY.er , the doctors nay, we think and. of course, we have very good reason to believe this, the cocto:: - MF . NF.l'.PY: All they have to co is i~dicate no su!:sti tute anc t.~at is it, ga~~te over. ~~: !''.? . P.Ct'S£: Order, ~r .SpeaY.er, please ! - ll\ay say co not substitute 4467 -.

December 11, 1979 Tape No. 1776 GH-1 MR. HOUSE: bu~ we believe that 95 per cent of the doctors will not indicate that, and we are certain that ~~e only times they will are when they have been directed by the patient to do it or the patient wants a specific kind of pill he has been taking all along. MR. NEARY: 99 per cent of Newfoundlanders do not know what this is all about. MR. HOUSE: Well, that is good, that is good, that is great. You are giving the Newfoundlanders what you think of Newfoundlanders, that they do not understand anything. I think Newfoundlanders happen to be an intelligent group of people.

I believe that, of course, the hon. member has a very poor 'opinion of Newfoundlanders, just like he has a poor opinion of councillors in the Province. He has a poor opinion of all Newfoundlanders. MR. NEARY: The hen. rr.inister is not brinsing in a rreaningful piece of legislation. It does not mean anything. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, this is meaningful legislation. It is attempting to reduce the cost of prescription drugs - MR. NEARY: It is a farce. MR. HOUSE: - and it is going to do that. The han. member, if he does not want to support it, of course, does not have to.

He is over there, he has his own mind, I think he has. Sometimes I wonder if he has one, but if he has his own mind let him get up and speak against it. It is a good, positive piece of legislation. It is going to reduce, hopefully, the cost of prescription drugs, and I do commend it, I do commend it to the House and to the members. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) at this stage. No, I think somebody mentioned some time ase 10 to 20 per cent, it was not me, and I do not think it would be wise for anybody to make that statement.

We are saying that there are differences between 5¢ and 10¢ a pill on a lot of these high volume drugs, and that is a fairly substantial - MR. STIRLING: Is there any research done to find out?

December 11, 1979 MR. ROUSE: up with figures like that. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1776 GH-2 Yes, but they were not able to come What about the senior citizens? Are you going to subsidize their drugs or not? MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, that is not germane to this particular bill at all. This is a bill - MR. NEARY: Oh, I see, but the Premier promi~ed to do it in the last election. MR. HOUSE: Well, that could be in another form. What this is is a bill to reduce, of course, the cost of prescription drugs, and if the hon. member is not in favour of it, of course, let him get up and speak against it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: (Butt) Isle. MR. ROBERTS: The hen. member for the Strait of Belle Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I am an expert, but I would say to my friend from Lapoile (Mr. Neary), and I think he would agree with me on this - we do not agree on everything but we do agree on a great deal, but in the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is king. Now that we have heard the minister's speech - and let me say we are swung over by his eloquence - we shall support the bill and do it gladly. MR. NEARY: We are almost afraid. MR. ROBERTS : Perhaps I may be allowed, Mr.

Speaker, to explain to the Rouse what the bill does and to explain what it is we are being asked to do, because, while I would not call it a great reform - I think the Premier has put that name on this, he has been scraping pretty hard to try to come up with some great refo~ - I would not call this a great reform nor, to be honest and to be candid and to be fair, nor did the minister.

I think the minister made it quite clear that in his eyes this is a most unexciting bill, that it really ought to be dealt with not in a shout of acclarration but in, perhaps, a word or two of hushed welcome, and he made it quite clear that, while he was certainly sponsoring this bill, he 4469

December 11, 1979 Tape !lo . 1776 GB-3 MR. !l.OBERTS: was not going to list it in the list of ten great achievements of 'H.W. Bouse , Esq.', sometimes a member of the Bouse of i\ssembly or a some.,ime member of tile House, \olhich is how history will regard him or, for that matter, any of us. I think this is note a bad bill at all . In f a ct , I think it is a fairly good bill , and it is certainly one which we in this Rouse should pass.

I gather it has been brought in after consultation, and properly so, with the representatives or spokesmen of the P~arrr.ace~ieal »ssociation and the Newfoundland Medical Ass oc iatior., and I think that is em:.irely proper too . ~ also understand - and I would like to say this because I think it is only fitting and proper - that some bouquets should go to the minister's senior advisor, the Deputy ~linister of Health, Dr . Klippert. I \olould say 1:0 th.e minister that he is well served in 1-.is officials in that department.

I think that the deputy minist:er, who is not known to me personally - he was not chere in my days which are a long time ago now, Mr. Speaker , time 1470

Decerr~er ll, 1979 Tape ioio .1777 DVi - l MR. E. ROBERTS: goes whizzing by but the Deput:t :1l.niste::: I hear spoken of in good terms ana I would say to the n;i.nist.er that ia t."'-is Eill 1at least, or the matters connected with this Eill, at least 1 the Deputy Minister has represented him and the government well, in fact, perhaps better than they deserve to be represented given the fact it has taken five or six years to get this Bill put before the House. nut Dr. Klip~ert, I gatner,in particular, went out to Corner Brook last year eit.~er at the direction of the minister or his predecessor, Mr.

Collins was minister then I ·:;uess Nr. l:iarolC. Collins, and appeared at a meeting of tne Pharmaceutical Association and I gather acquitted himself witn some distinction think ti1at should be noted. It is not a matter of bringing public servants into the debates of the House, that is not my purpose nor is it what I have done, it is simply a matter of noting that the ~eputy Minister iL this matter 1 in p~~cular1 has performed good and substantial ~ublic service.

And I would say to the rninister,as was once said to me by one of the men •,;ho serveci. as rr:.y Deputy Hinist.er and was a Deput:{ :tinister to a numLer of ot.'1.er ~!inisters of Health/ · that after all the Deputy ~inister runs tne department, you, Sir, are but t.'1.e Hinister. And that is a correct statement in the law of this Province. It is also, I would suggest 1 extremely wise council for any minister or any politici~• to heeci.. 'lhe deputy ministers are the heads of t:ae depa:.;tlnents 7 t:Oe n·inisters are r..ere ly ti:•e mim .. s ters. That was Dr.

Miller ana I was ~elighted to see thc.t the govenl.IIJent have na.n·ec the old Gene:::-al riospital after Dr . .)tiller and I was even more delighted to see that ur. !!iller was able to be present at the cere~~:onies. Too often these ceremonies are brought about only after the person being honoured has gone to tile great dispensing room in tile sky and is not around or may or may not be able to appreciate what is going on. I do not want to get into t.'1.e t:aeology of that, sir, but is not around in human form to appreciate it. r think cear olti Dr.

Templeman on Bell Island - was Temp alive when ti1ey nc.med the hospital after hin1? 4471. ·,

iJecen.ber ll, 19 79 :!.'ape .~o. 1777 IB-2 !1R. NEARY: Oh, yes. I had a big debate in the House about it. i'!R. ROEER~: ~as he not in a hospital ced or something? MR. Nl.ARY: They aid not want to name i~ after him because he was still alive. ;.m. ROBER'lS: That is it. I knew - Dr. w·alter :ierepleman who was a giant in the medical history of this Province - Ne won tne argument. MR.

RCI:!ERTS : - and a man who served the people of Bell Island for mar.y, many years with very great distinction, 1 think it is fair to say was widely beloved by the people there and there were sorrB when the new hospital on Bell Island - and he had been instrumental in helping to bring it about 1 as said r.ly friend who was ti1en t.'l.e merr.ber for E>ell Island or ~ras about to be elected t.'l..: --mber - the two events were not entirely unrelated I like to think but- HR. NEARY: It was named after I got elected. MR.

ROBJ;.RTS: I agree it came after but hopefully as a result of, at least in part, the non. gentleman's election. Absolutely. HR. ROBERTS: The suggestion was made that the hospital .be named after Temp as Dr. Ten.pleman ;;as known to everybody. I am sure my friend frorr. E.xploits (::lr. Twomey) would have kno· •. n 'l.'exup well and served with ni.m ana I hope enjoyed life with him as only Temp could. And there was some suggestion that we would have to wait until Temp died and that suggestion was scotched and th~ 1 hospital was ' named the WaltBr Templeman - 1 am not sure J.f it is a M• .norial E:.;;spital.

Can you have a Memorial liospi tal to somebody who is a: ;i ve. No. HR. ROBERTS: I was the Walter Templeman or the Dr. \;alter 'Ien opleman l:lospital and fittingly so. 1·lR. NEARY: We smashed a tradition,teally. 4472 > •

December 11, 1979 Tape 1777 IB-3 l>lk. RCB.E.RTS: ~tr. Speaker, this bill does something that I thlnk is significant and I think it is wortilllihile and so I, for one, aDd rr.y colleagues i1ave authorized me to sa7 that they for eignteen others will support it. Wha.t it says is that a pharmacist in this Province - and I speak of pharmacists :Out the act,it shfulc;. be noted 1 in

section 3 ~peaks of persons authorized to dispense drugs and that is a li tUe broader than pharmacists. Doctors are authorized to Qispense drugs and I believe in certain circumstances so are registered nurses. NR. i.fZARY: Right. 11R. ROB£RTS' I am not offering ~~at as a legal opinion. I do not have the Pharmaceutical Act in front of me and I have not cnecked the point.

But the persons authorized to dispense drugs - those ,are the words that are used in t.'le statutes I will simply sa:; pharmacists because the pharmaceutical ..;>rofession has developed in Newfoundland and Labrador now to the extent where, you know, in rr~st communities we do have professional pharmacists at work. I would think there are probably only a half a dozen places in tne entire Province where doctors now dispense drugs

whereas even ten or twelve years ago rr~st doctors in the district medical practices were dispensing drugs 1 probably lllaking as much dispensin~ drugs as they were doing their work as doctors but that is largely over and done with by now. But what the bill provides is that a pharmacist not may :Out shall sell to the person who comes in with a perscription,shall sell the lowest cost drug that t.~at ph~4cist has in stock. And if the pharn'.acist does not have tl1e lowest cost drug, shall sell the drug. in stock at the lowest cost. Now that I does not apply , to ,/ 4473

·, 'I I I December 11, 1979 Tape 1778 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: every drug, it applies only to those that are listed in the formulary, a terrible phrase, the formulary that is to be established by authority of this Act. And I will talk in a moment about the formulary, Sir. But before I do that, I want to note as the minister did, that .doctor may opt out.

He may opt out in respect of a given prescription by simply writing on it, in his own handwriting, a stamp is not good enough, a typewritten thing is not good enough, the handwriting of his nurse or his secretary is not good enough, it must be in his own handwriting, he must write on it, you know, words to the effect, of no substitution allowed. So where a doctor prescribes a specific drug and says on the written prescription, "No substitution allowed" then the pharamists must dispense that drug, and presumably can dispense it at whatever price he wishes. I think, that is how I understand the Act.

If the doctor specifies,shall we say, valium instead of diazepan then valium could be sold for whatever price valium is selling for, not at the lowest price but whatever price. And if the doctor simply says valium, and valium, Your Honour ~ay not be too aware of it, Your Honour has not been in the Chair long enoush to need tranquilizers, but valium is a tranquilizer. I do not pretP-nd to be an expert,but valium is a variety of diazepan and I would think there are millions and millions and millions af capsules of diazepan prescribed in this Province each year.

I will talk in a minute about the cost, but let us take valium as an example and give the Roche Company the free advertising. Do they still give the Department of Health free valium capsules? lffi. W. HOOSE: (Inaudible) . MR. ROBERTS: When I was there they used to give ~s a million or two million capsules a year free. My friend for Exploits (Dr. Twomey} may - is that still the case? DR. TWOMEY: Not now. They were trying to promote their product. MR. ROBERTS: Well 1 they were promoting it by giving it away, literally giving the government all these supplies.

Valium and librium, which I believe are both trade names of the Roche Company, 4474

• December 11, 1979 Tape 1778 PK ~ 2 Mr. ROberts: were being given to the department for use in all of the cottage hospitals. And i£ my friend for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) who was then a full-time doctor instead of a part-time doctor and a part-time member, but was then a full-:time doctor at the hospital in Botwood, if he or ~~y of his colleagues prescribed valium and it came out from the central Pharmacy down here at Pleasantville - MRS. NEWHOOK: (Inaudible) • MR. ROBERTS: They cost the Queen nothing to get except whatever the transportation may be.

And the gentleman · <~.t, I think it is the Roche Company1 they were not doing it simply to be good guys, as the doctor says, "They were doing it to promote the - MR. HOUSE: MR. ROBERTS: but it is -sure MR. HOUSE: MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) • Yes. Valium is the most commo~ly known one, (Inaudible) considered to be - Well, okay. Well 1 the first point I want to make, Mr. Chairman, is that a·druggist,a pharamist must dispense the lowest priced drug unless the doctor speci£ically rules otherwise.

And it will be interesting to see, and only the event will tell us, it will be interesting to see how often a doctor insists upon a specific brand.

I suspect that most doctors now, and as the minister would agree, and as Your Honour may be aware, I have some knowledge of the medical profession, not including my one year in premed at the University of Toronto, but I have an awful lot of friends and relatives who are in the doctor business in one way or another and I sometimes suspect that a lot of the times when doctors prescribe a specific brand name it is simply because they do not know the generic name, or if they do know it, they cannot spell it, because the generic names tend to he very you know, they are chemical names, they can he long and difficult to spell,

whereas the trade names, the ethical name, to use a classic example -of how to twist the language ..:ethical drugs, as if the other drugs were unethical- but the brand name is usually a catchy phrase like valium or librium, or something like that. '1475

December 11, 1979 Tape 1178 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts: And I think my friend for Exploits (.Dr. Twameyt woUld agree that in most cases the brand name is pre$Cribed simply because that is the only one the doctor understands, or because he has had a detailed man frQlll a <kuq company in pushing - you know 1 I was sixteen I guess before I rea.lizeQ. there was any kind of drug in the W<lrld except free samples.

And I suspect anybody who grew up in a hallie where the father was a doctor, you know, had that same experience. liundr.eds and thousands of dollars in free samples were being given out to doctors to persuade them to use a specific l;lrand. So that is being ,ended, and that is a good thing. I Now1 some sa£eguards are being built in because as the minister - MR. TOLK; (Inaud~le) your father sold tlJ,em or gave them away ? lo!R. ROBERTS: My friend for Fogo (Mr. TUlk) as~ed, i f my father sold tl1em or gave them away?

If ·they were to me he probably sold them but to tne rest of the family I guess he gave ~hem away, would be the answer. And there was no medicare in those days. No medicare. t'he bill provides a procedure - and I think this .is important - whereby · '14?6

December 11,1979 Tape No. 1779 AH-1 ~P .• ROEEPTS : ~~ public interest will be protected because the argument has gone on for a long, long time as to whether generic drugs are safe 1 to use a very wide world word loosely, and the answer is that the Government of · Canada a number of years ago set up what is called the Quad programme 1 _I do not know what Quad stands for , but it is a drug equivalency testing programme - MR.HOUSE: (Inaudible) quality assessment - MR. ROBERTS: I do not know. It does not matter. It is called Quad. But what it is the Government of Canada - OR. TWOMEY: Quality assessed drugs. MR.

ROBERt'S: I thank my friend from Exploits a~d I the minister. The Quad prograwme is a equivalency testing programme whereby the relevant people within the Canada Health and Nelfare department, as I understand it 1 test drugs and they then say, alright, ~~is is an acceptable drug in its quality,and its product. Let us take diazepan 1 we are using it again 1 it is a common tranquilizer and a third of the prescriptions written in Newfoundland today are for diazepari . Would it be that high - a third? My friend from Exploits(Dr.TWomey). DR. TWOI'.EY : (Inaudible) common one.

MR. roBERt'S: ----- It is certainly the most common product but it might be as much as-a third,! am told,of all the prescriptions being written tonay in Newfoundland are for Giazepan. It is a very large proportion of - I am told that sixty-five per cent of all prescriptions are less than thirty core drugs but even within that diazepan 1 the tranquilizer 1 is by far the most common drug compound used in this Province today. So the Government of Canada tests a number of these, I Mr.

Speaker, and it say~,Alright!anyone of the following brands is acceptable.for diazepan 1 and then one might be valium and I will mention another one that I am told is paxel, now that is two and I ll!E!ntion those two because I happen to have the prices. The price of ~~ese is quite significant and this is some~~ng the minister ought to have bro~ght out because my friend from.LaPoile (Mr.Neary) was quite properly stressing this. Now, I do not know if there are any estimates as to what will be saved . .. .4477 --

December 11,1979 Tape No. 1779 AH-2 HR.BOBERTS: but I will tell you there are substantial savings because I am told ~~at if one was to take a tablet of diazepan, d-i-a-z-e-p-a-n it is spelled, it is the common tranquillizer, if one was to take a table of that and get the tablet brand named valium -now these prices are wholesale prices to the retailer, ~~ey cost 6.4 cents each, $6.40 per hundred, $64.00 per thousand and that is the price that is charged to the customer to which is added ~ dispensing fee~ Now,Sir, the paxel, to take another brand which I am' told is_ the cheapest one but which is exactly equivalent in a therapeutic sense/ and the Government of Canada through this Quad programme, ~"tat is what they say, that paxel is equivalent to valium in a therapeutic sense and that cost is 1.5 cents a tablet, less than one fourth.

So that is a significant reduction. Here we are talking of thousands and millions of these tablets being sold in Newfoundland each year and now they are going to be available at 1.5 cents each. DR. TIIOHEY : 1.5 cents per tablet. 1-'R •. ROBERTS: Yes,$15.80 per tnousand as opposed to $64.00 per thousand. Less. than a fourth; a very significant savinq. And ·as I said , Mr. Speaker, maybe as much as a third of all t.he drugs in ~Te•~foundland fall •N"ithin ~"tat one category of diazepan. An incredibl -' r:roportion . !t also tells some~"ting about our society but that is another story.

MP .• NEJI.RY: out and bought Smarties. MR.ROBERTS: example to show how it They would be better off if they <Tell( they well might l e. Jl.nother goes - let us take tetracycline which I understand is ano~"ter very common drhg preparation. You know1 if we look at the ampicillins,ampicillin and the tetracycline - I am not sure I can pronounce ~"te next one but I will stagger it- cholo:rpromazine and diazepan, I am told t..llat these four types of drugs or whatever, types of drugs, are a long way towards half the prescriptions written in Newfoundland. t..llose four si~ple preparations.

I mentioned s~e figures for the diazepan. The t!:!_tracycline .r am told that 1 for example, one of the col!'.mon brand names is .4478

Decernter 11,1979 MR. ROBEF.TS: Tape No. 1779 AE-3 ' achrornycin V. Apparently that is a col!'lTIOn preparation a.'1c is >rell regarded. It c;oes for 5.6 cents a tablet and ar.ot!1e r equivalent Grug in ever:! sense but m·,e, . 4479

December 11th, 1979 Tape No. 1780 RA - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: not as highly promot.o~d, tetracyn (spelled t-e-t-r-a-c-y-

n) is two cents each,just about one third,so there are significant savings to be made and I would say to the minister that.e is being modest about the bill, The Premier would not be modest about it. I \o'Ould say to the minister that for once - AN nON. ME.\iBER: l'ffi.. E • ROBERTS : AI.~ HON. MEMBER: MR. E. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) I am sorry? (Inaudible).

Yes, yes, but five cents a pill does not sound very much if the pill cost one hundred dollars, and what I am saying is that in these drugs which are commonly used, extensively used, here we are talking , of cut~g the cost ir. respect of the drug by as much as 1 you know, cutting four dollars down to one dollar or cutting three dollars down to one dollar,one-third,and that is a significant improvement indeed.

Now, it will not reduce the cost of the prescription because on to that,you know , if you buy one hundred diazepan pills and then you add on the $3.50 or $3 . 75 the total prescription will go from,say,ten dollars down to say five dollars. But it will still make a big difference. It will save the government, it should be noted 1 hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. I am told that possibly seven out of ten prescriptions written in this Province are either on the government, - through the welfare clients, or our Blue Cross, or Great West Life, third party plans of some sort or another. AN HON. MEMBER; llllt.

E • ROBERTS : (Inaudible) Well, I am told that it is seventy. My information ,1comes from friends of mine within the pharmaceutical profession; an·1 way it is a very hi.,.n proportion. So, Mr. Speaker, you know, the bi: ,1 is a good one, It is hardly a revolutionary one. Every Province in canada, I am told, has now got some form of mandatory substitution legislation and I am told that at least two Province~ Manitoba and British Columbia 1 have legislation exactly the same as ·1480

. ' December 11, 1979 Tape No. 1780 RA - 2 11111:. E. ROBERTS : this~ ·· So not only are we not particularly refo.rming 1 but we are not even pioneering. But that is not a camplaint,it is just a matter of recording for the record that this is pretty o. stuff. Most legislatures across Canada have moved towards this for long ago. Now I do want to bring out a couple of points that I think are important and that do not detract from the principle of the bill but I think are certainly significant .in considering the principle. The first is, we come to

section three, and that is in sub-section three of

section three 1 it provides in certain circumstances a doctor I am sorry 1 not a doctor - a drugist, a dispenser shall -shall, not may- shall provide drugs other than the lowest listed one. I simply want to ask the minister, perhaps when he speaks to close the second reading debate 1 if he will tell us who determines the general availability of the distribution of a drug.

The clause,as Your Honour will note,is hinged upon the wordstgenerally available 1 because those whether or not a drug is , 'generally available' is the factor .which dete.rmines whether or not it shall be dispensed in a situation were the druggist does not have the lowest priced one to have. He must substitute, but he must substitute the higher priced one at the low price , assuming the low priced one is generally available, I want to know who decides that, please, and whether that will be noted in the Formulary? And also I think there is a grievous flaw in

section eight 1 and I will bring this to the attention of the minister in the hope that he Would consult the draftspeople with a view possibly to amending it.

Section eight says in its entirity, R for the purpose of avoiding doubtliit is hereby declared that no action lies against arry person because of the prescribing or ~spensing of a substitute drug listed in the formulary - capital F-under this act~ Now I know what they are getting at1 but I would say to the minister that that clause does not meet the need 1 because I venture a legal opinion-and I think it is a sound one - that would absolve a person dispensing a drug in the Formulary and dispensing it negligently, I want to see- . 4481.

• December ll, 1979 Tape No . l780 ~ - 3 MR. E . ROBERTS: in the

section - I am not offe~ing words to go but J: thought I do offer, .I wa."'t to see words put in that:

section that would say that, you k."'ow, this does not: re:r.ove the responsibility of the person dispensing the drug to act with due care and caution and not negli gently / and I ar.1 sura the minister 1482 -.

December 11, 1979 Tape 1781 ~IB - 1 MR. ROBERTS: would agree with that. But I say to him that that section,which is not offensive in its principle, but that

section does provide,I think,a defence to a change - I do not use that as a ::rimin;~.l charge -a defense to an action at common law that a druggist had acted negligently.tihat is needed, I think, is that we want to say, and the

section comes close to it,that simply because a person substitutes paxel, to use my earlier example of the Diazepan, instead of librium or valium, t.'lat that in itself is not the ground for an action. Sut if t.'le druggist is told to prescribe, shall we say - I am just using figures - five milligram tablets of diazepan ,and prescribe twenty milligram tablets, and as a result the patient suffers an overdose f=m taking the number of tablets, then that action should still lie against that pharmacist. And yet this

section here, as it is now written, in my view is open to a lawyer coming in,defending that negligent pharmacist and saying 'but ,:'l;Y I.ord, dismiss this action because

section 8 of the Generic Dispensing of Prescription Drugs Act says that no action shall lie because of the prescribing or dispensing of a substitute drug and the defendant in this action dispensed a substitute drug'. So you have got to find better words t.~an that 1I say to the minister. I t.'link it is possible, I think it is just a case where adequate instructions have not been given to the draftsmen, and surely there is time between now and committee stage to consider t.~e point and I would think it is one where an amendment ought to be brought in.

It is not a political or partisan issue • I do t.'l.ink,t.~ugh,that the bill is capable of being improved in that respect. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, I do want to say that we on this side, with a note of regret, have come to t.'l.e realization that this great reform t.'l.at was trumpeted by the Premier is not really of any value in addressing what we believe to be t.'l.e really serious preble~ in Newfoundland and Labrador today ,and that is t.'"le case of those persons, particularly older people, who are not economically capable, To use an old phrase we do not hear anymore, are medically indigent, perhaps I should say pharmaceutically indigent. •4483

December 11, 1979 Tape 1781 NB - 2 Five ninutes left£ I have not been speaking for an hour! Well now, I wish the clerks 1 Mr. Sp<!aker, with all respect,would get their act together. I understand I have an ho~ to speak in respect to a bill and I do not mind being given notes but if the clerks would be kind enough to get their act together. How long have I been speaking, twenty-five minutes? Well 1 that is fine. MR. SPEAKER: They left out (inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Well., no. They left out a ~~ree, Your Honour.

I am not berating the clerks but the Standing Orders do say that ~~e member speaking in response to a minister is allowed an hour. I do not intend to use the hour 1 but I will probably need more than five minutes. I could use the hour if Your Honour wishes, Your Honour, I think, would agree I am capable of it. AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. roBERTS: I shall say nothing of that, Sir, except to say that the Premier was talking about cows and we are used to hearing him talk about bull, Sir. Now, Mr. Speaker, where was I before this unseemly interruption by Your Honour.

I was saying there are a class, or there is a class,to be grammatically and syntactically correct, of people in Newfoundland who are phar.naceutically indigent. In the old days we used to use the tenn medically indigent, in the old days before ~:edicare. A ~dically indigent person or a pharmaceutically indigent person is not an indigent person; he or she is simply a person who cannot afford to provide the type of :noney that is needed to buy medical services 1 where they were to be purchased as they were in many places in the old days or in this case grugs.

And it is quite possible for a person to have prescribed for himself a regime of drugs that is a very expensive regime and will still be expensive even with the generic substitutes. This can be a very heavy burden economically upon people. Now this bill does absolutely nothing to address itself to that at all.. The government 4484

December 11, 1979 Tape 17Sl HB - 3 l: could make a very heated speech about the shabby treatlnent of a bunch o~ men, as they then were- they are now a bunch of men and women - of qove:t:IUDent,wno before the election, speakinq . . ,,: ...... . ~ . through the mouth, through the lips o~ the qentleman from st. John's East Extern, l: ;un not Sllre what his cabinet Portfolio was then- it is n0w the Minister of SOcial Services (Mr. Hickey) -held out to people a belief th~t they would be givinq,that the qovernment would be 1485

, . ' December 11, 1979 Tape No. 1782 GH-1 ~IR. ROBERTS: presenting to the House and to the people of this Province a programme to help the medically indigent people, and then after the election the government repudiates that callously, carelessly and, I think, cynically. I want to say quite simply that there is a need. It would cost, I am told, about a million dollars a year. A million dollars a year to do what? It would cost about a million dollars a year to bring in a pharmacare programme for senior citizens. We are now the only Province in Canada, I understand, Mr.

Speaker, that has no provision for senior citizens. We do have provision for a person getting social assistance, and if he or she happens to be over 65 then, you know, you are still qualified, but there are many people - and the older people are much more subject to this because, as we get older, we use more drugs and the need is greater - there are many older people who do not qualify for social assistance.

They do not come within the rulings of the Department of Social Services and who, yet, find it a very heavy burden to provide themselves or their family, their spouses, usually 1 with· the drugs that are needed. I would think any one of us who deals with constituents, and I would think most of us do, can find examples. There is not one of us in this House, I venture, Mr.

Speaker, who has not at some point in the last - well, the guys who are new it does not apply to - but at some point within the next year then, including the members newly elected here, has not had a letter from a constituent who is finding it a very heavy economic burden to provide himself or herself with the drugs that are needed. You know, a few of the hen. gentlemen opposite here - my friend from Harbour Main (Mr. N. Doyle), I am sure, has run into that 1 or my friend from FoJt~z ~ay and Hermitage (Mr. D. Stewart) or my friend from Humber West,or the gentleman from St. John's Centre (Dr.

McNicholas), both in his work as a member and in his professional life as an ophthalmologist, you know, has run across people who cannot afford, have to do without something else, have to do without some necessity, to provide themselves with drugs. Now, I say to the minister that ·1486 -.i

December 11, 1979 Tape No. 1782 GH-2 MR. ROBERTS: the government are going to save a lot of money on this bill. It will probably save them a million bucks a year. I have not looked up - I might as well though - what we are spending - !·IR. liOUSE: MR. ROBERTS: MF.. liOUSE: MR. ROBERTS: Abcut $4 million. I am sorry? Appoximately $4 million. We are spending about $4 million now through the Canada Assistance Plan on, you know, the drugs for social assistance people. Now, we will save at least a million on that.

The governme~t will be at least a million bucks in pocket because of the subsidy, and I think that is a fair estimate. If this bill, this new plan, does not save one dollar out of four then it is not doing its job at all. We will save at least a fo~th. So there is the million bucks. The minister does not have to win the favour of the flinty denizens of the Treasury, who instinctively say 'no' to any proposal to spend money. They always have and they always will.

You know, perfectly decent people when they go to work for the Treasury become flinty eyed, hearts of stone, bowels without compassion, simply because they work for the Treasury. MR. STAGG: Bowels have no compassion. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, and the hon. gentleman from Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg) is a bowel without compassion, ~nd I ~ean when I say, though, there is something about - maybe it is some sort of blinkers which the people who work in the Treasury, ministers and officials alike - and I have known some perfectly fine chaps, Sir, who have become ministers of finance, and when they get to be minister of finance they cease to be fine chaps ar.d they cease to regard that most people in the world, you know, may need some help once in a while. Then when they cease being minister of finance, as in due course they do, they become perfectly human and decent again.

I mean, ~ohn Crosbie· was perfectly human and decent when he was not .4487 •.

December 11, 1979 Tape No. 178 2 Gn-3 MR. ROBERTS: the minister of finance. We will find out toniqht. MR. STAGG: (Inaud;ible). MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I think a generic drug is quite relevant to this. We will find out tonight, we will all need Valium after tonight. We will need tranquilizers. I say to 'lilY friend from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) that he would be better at h0111e answering' letters from humble solicitors soliciting an answer from him, than trying to sl;low his lack of knowledge of the rules of this House because what I say is perfectly relevant. MR. STAGG: I 'ii'ill give my client. an ultimatum. MR.

ROBERTS: The hon. gentleUJ;an is giving h;is client an ultimatum. His client may give him an ultiluatum, there beinl] a second lawyer now in the Town of StephenVille to go to. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! I think that is irrelevant. M!,l.. ROB~: Is it? I would ~. Sir, it is completely relevant to a pharmacare programme. To wander back to the point in response to Your Honour's ultimatum, I would say to the minister that, you know, this need for senior citizens i,.s a very real one, and I have just shQwn him how he can find a million bucks.

He does not have to ask the Treasury for another nickel. · He can si.J:Dply say, "Look, I have saved you enoug'h, I have saved you enough on the -. 4488 -.

Decemeer 11, 1979 Tape llo. 1783 IB-1 HR. ROEE?.TS: generic drugs, saved you enough there to enable us to fin~~ce a pharmicare programme for senior citizena!' maybe a programme whereby every senio::: citizen pays the first buck on a perscription or tl1e first 10 per cent or something.

And there are certainly people ~~ho C.o not need it but there are many, many people througnout this Province - and ~~ere are few things more heart-renc.ing tnan getting a letter from an old lady who is having co take a list of drugs a ruile lcng 1 all of them legitimate, all of them prescribed by the doctors 1 and s;,e is living on an income just above social assi:otance, just above t!J.e line where she can - now if si1e were lucky enough not to :>ave t.i1at income 1 she could go and get a card 1or whatever it is,from th~ welfare or whatever they call them, they are not welfare officers an}'W.ore. AN liON.

MEMBER: Social workers. MR. ROBLRTS: Social workers. A damn few of there work on occasion,! can tell you. aut the social workers g.!.ve you - you know,you get in the system and you get your drugs t.'len. But if you are unlucky enough to be just above the line then you cannoc get any help and you are on your own. And,as I say 1 I would t~~nk ever] member here has run across a case or two of ~•at in working ~ i t.'J. his constituents . And these are people who deserve ;1elp. These are people who need it.

And the minister can find t:te money. i'-.nd that technique ·worl>s1 you know. wnen I · .. as -'iealth ,.;inister I persuacleci. my colleagues in the Cabinet 1 including my friend from LaPoile (1-lr. Neary) - is he ~'le only one left? l:iow we change! i'ffi. NEARY: Only a couple of us survived it. MR. ROBERTS: A couple of us survived and there are a couple more on the other side, when the tide sweeps out on them. 1-lR. NEARY: That is right. _J-IR. ROBERTS: But, Mr. Speaker - and may there .... be no moaning at the bar when the tide goes out to .sea, Mr. Speaker A."' EON . ~!EMBER: (Inauciible) . MR.

ROBERTS: wnen I see the gentleman for St. John's North (Mr. J. carter) 1 I think we all need a bar or a barrier. 1489

wecember 11, 1979 'l'ape •<o. 1783 IB-2 HR. ROB.CR'l'S : Mr.

Speaker, the point 1though 1is wt.en I was Health Hinister I sold my colleague from LaPoile (Mr. 1'1e~) 1 anti a number of others ,a bill of goods and a legitimate one lie increased the flrogranur.e of dental care for children, the progranme of free dental care for chileren,and I financed it by bringing in my famous or infamous proration scheme for the doctors ,which caused the doctors no hardship but gave the treasury enough money to be able to finance the ~xtension of the programme for dental care for children which I think was a much better use of the money.

I would say to the rr~nister now that he is going to save at least $1 million with tr~s bill. And the only people - the citizens of the Province will not lose this - the only people who are going to lose it are the shareholders of ti1ese great 1 expensive drug companies and I hold no · brief for the m. ~heir indecent profits will be a little less indecent now. So we are taking $1 million a year out of the pockets of the shareholders of these corrpanies. Now ~~e only question is,where is L1at ~1 million going to go?

Is it going to go into the maw of u~e Treasi.lry and be used for all the myriad of purposes that tne Treasur.f 1.0se 3loney for,or can the minister use the el~uence which is his to co~. and and convince his colleagues to do something that needs to be done and t;1at is bring in a pha.rmicare prograrrme? A million bucks, I underscand, from people- and I have taken counsel with 1->eople in the field - woulC. go a long "ay towards proviW.ng tile ::enior citizens of this Provir.ce wi~• assistance in drugs. Aud I would tl·~nk it shoulci b<a a (inaudible). ~tayoe after, you know, I coulci suggest variations.

If I was being ~•e minister I could J::.e very creative about this. 11aybe the first fifty dollars a year of a ci.rug bill each of us f>ays,or a senior citizen pa:~-·s but after tnat the gover=ent picks it Uf' ti•rough tile J?ha~·;ricare. Yo~ kr.ow, there ought to be some ~1ay to J:..e equitable and I think that ~~at is a very mucn needed reform in this Province. It is probably the one gap left in the spectrum of social services. So I would say to the minister that if ne - you know, he is not particularly proud of this bill and I can understand that.

It is a good bill. lt will get support anC. it will do some goo<i 1 but the real good this bill can do is not just '4490 -·.

~cemcer 11, 1979 'I ape ,{o. 1783 L>-3 ~$. ROBr.R7S: in cut:tinc; clown what people pay fer drugs,bat in usinc; so~e of euat money t:o benefit the z;eople wno need help . ~C. if he reall}' '"'ants to make a mark as ~!i.nister of lieal tll - anci. I bel.ieve he does ,and tl:at is a 1E!9itin.ate and a laudible aim - tnen let h.im ador t the kind of suggestion ! h ave n:ade . Policicall~· it would be a good thing. I mean , :U.s own colleao;ue , the ger:tleman for St . .ror..n's E.ast Extern (N.r. Hickey) ctid prol!'.ise i;;; and has now reneged on t hat promise or ~uid i c caken out fro m under him .

I kno w it: is a ne~o.· admi.>ti.stracion but1 you kno~,it is che sag~ group of men and a rose by any o ~~er na:~ is just as sweet 1a.,d a c;ove=r ,:ent: by ..my otner nar...:. - ac.uini.;tracion 1 I s.'loula say"- cy any ocher nan1e smei.ls just. as badly . so, you know, the min iswr has a., OF,?Vrtunity here and I have show"TI him how he can go to the flinty-e yec. fiends of the 'Ireasury or tne 'i reasurJ Soarc anc ., say, It is not going t:o ccsc us any money and I can C.o some gocd . ?lease let r..e go a.'lead wit:h it ." But thE oill itself, Sir, ~ t hink is a st:e? forwa.rc .

I think that: it shoul!i not be sold as a sreat refonr, beca use i:; is not a great refoD:1 1 but it is a progressive .;:ieee of leg.islatior. a.,c., mat being so ,we 'AFHl support a.'\d we will do so qlaaly . Thank you. 1491

December 11, 1979 SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. PATTERSON: Tape No. 1784 GH-1 Hear, hear! The hen. member for Placentia. I would like to say a few words on this bill. I am sure all members on this side of this House and on the opposite side of the House would certainly go along with the views expressed by the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) with regard to providing drugs for senior citizens. Now, I do not know what the cost would be, and if the cost is a million dollars that is hoped to be realized through this procedure would be sufficient to do it.

I have a long interest in drugs and dispensing of drugs. I did a study of a Royal Commission that was set up by the Federal Government of Canada to deal with this matter. At that time, I took it up with the Liberal government of Newfoundland. I wrote several letters to the Telegram. I wrote the Minister of Health of that day and the letter came back stating, "It is not our policy to become involved with private enterprise.

We do not want to do anything that conflicts with private enterprise." At that time, I was suggesting that the drugs in the outports be dispensed through the ~ospitals and through the nursing clinics. But that was the attitude of the Liberal government of that day. I have letters to prove it, letters published in the Telegram giving the prices of drugs as high as 1400 per cent. MR. NEARY: You are getting worse than the member from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) now, you are- MR. PATTERSON: getting better. MR. NEARY: MR. PATTERSON: I hope I am getting better. I hope I am - you are so bigoted.

Is there anything bigoted abOut supplying drugs to people who c~~ot afford to buy the drugs? First, you are ~gainst ~,e councillors, now you are against the old aged people who cannot afford to buy the drugs. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) say it was. MR. PATTERSON: Well, if you were listening, he said I am bigoted; he said I am very bigoted as a member. 1192

December 11, 1979 MR. ROBERTS: MR. PATTERSON: MR. ROBERTS: MR. PATTERSON: Tape No. 1784 GH-2 I know the hon. gentleman is bigoted. Pardon? I know the hon. gentleman is bigoted. You do know, well, that is about all you know. You are wrong on that one. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) new members. MR. PATTERSON: I am telling you that I wrote the Minister of Health in the Smallwood government, I produced the letters he~e, and they wrote back and they said, "Look, it is not our policy to become involved with free enterprise". MR. ROBERTS: MR. PATTERSON: the cottage hospitals. MR. ROBERTS: MR. PATTERSON: MR.

ROBERTS: MR. ,PATTERSON: But what has that got to do with this? I was trying to get the drugs back into What has that got to do with this? Down in the han. member's district of- But what has that got to do with this bill? If you would listen, you would learn, but that is what is wrong with you, you do not listen, you cannot listen. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I am quite prepared to listen, but the han. gentleman - MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) On a point of order, the han. gentleman for Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: The Strait of Belle Isle, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman, like any of us, has to be relevant, and I would ask - MR. PATTERSON: ~ · speaking · - . MR. ROBERTS : MR. PATTERSON: or feed - MR. SPEAKER: MR. PATTERSON: drugs. Is there anything more relevant than ·- ' Mr. Speaker - -of drugs? I am not talking about turnips Order, please! - or cows or sheep, I am talking about 1493

December 11, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) Isle on a point of order. MR. ROBERTS: Tape No. 1784 GH-3 Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Thank you, Sir. Now that the gentleman from Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) has resumed his seat, I want to simply say that he must abide by the relevancy rule as we all must, and the relevancy rule quite wisely is widely interpreted, and so it should be of a considerable degree of latitude, but I fail to understand, and I would simply ask Your Honour to ask the hon. gentleman to bring his remarks' to the point of this bill 1 which deals with lower cost prescription drugs. What that has to do with free enterprise is neither one way or the other, and I just ask Your Honour to draw the bon. gentleman's attention to that rule. MR. PATTERSON: (Inaudible) possibly (inaudible). MR.

SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. gentleman for Placentia. MR. PATTERSON: When I studied the report of the Royal CoiDID,ission on D_rugs, I became aware tha.t drugs - MR. ROBERTS : MR. PATTERSON: MR. ROBERTS: MR. PATTERSON: Wnat was it on? - drugs - the Royal Commission on Drugs - (Inaudible). Yes - no, no, it ~ras not. It was set up in 1960 by the Diefenbaker . government, about - MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR. PATTERSON: 3000 pages, yes. MR. ROBERTS: They will show up. MR. PATTERSON: And they stated - it was stated in that repo:t:t . that-drugs. -were_.,.selli-ng . as ~igh as_.600 _to_ 140.P P.er ~en1:;.

AN HON. MEMBER: MR. PATTERSON: MR. SPEAKER: MR. PATTERSON: MR. SPEAKER: MR. PATTERSON: (Inaudible). It was more expensive - Order, please! - to buy the drugs in a corner drugstore - Order, please! - than it would be in a hospital. 1494 -.

December 11, 1979 Tape No. 1784 GH-4 MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) The hen. gentleman is speaking to the point of order? Is the hen. gentleman speaking to the point of order raised by the hen. member from Belle Isle? MR. PATTERSON: MR. ROBE.l~TS: MR. SPEAKER: No, · I am just continuing with my remarks. Learn the rules of the House. First I have to rule on the point of order. I rule that this is a difference of opinion and the hen. member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) - MR.

PATTERSO"cl: The hen. member for Lapoile now would like me to bring up a few speeches he made when he was opposed to the Liberal government and how the people on Bell Island, the poor, downtrodden people, who were no longer - they were neglected because of the Liberal party - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. PATTERSON: I do not want any of your kisses, come back and listen. Yes, he will not come back and stand his ground now, because I could go down and bring up those speeches. When he attacked the Smallwood •:J"OVernment over decertifying of the I.W.A. - MR. NEARY: A very weak defence. MR.

PATTERSON: It is not a very weak defence. If you would learn to lj5ten, you would probably move up in the front benches; you are on the back benches, and that is where you are going to stay. The hen. member says that -4495 . .)

Dece~~er 11,1979 Tape No. 1785 AH-1 MR. PATTERSON: it is not relevant. He is talking about using ~1 million we hope to realize if this bill is enacted and transfer it to the poor people. I am sure all han. mern~ers on that side anc on this side are concerned with the people who cannot afford to buy drugs. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. PATTEF.SON: Nm-•, I could not l::e any more relevant than that.

But down in the han. member's district fer S~ ~ Mary's -The Capes they were getting their drugs at the clinic there, so that has been cut off and these people have to drive forty miles into Placentia to pick up a few drugs,so I think that is wrong. MR.ROBERT!:: Has the present government changed that policy or have they carried through with it? MR. PATTERSON: Well 1 it was only a few weeks ago it was brought to my attention, I intended to bring it to the hon. member's attention. I am sure he will pursue it and I will assist him with Ll,at.

MR.ROBERTS: I will simply say to the han. gentleman ~,at I think there is a lot in what he says on that point 1 but I ~fill tell him that ~'1e present administration 1and their predecessor ~l,e Moores administration,have followed t.,at policy tmreservedly and the Minister of Health (Mr.House) ,! think, could name a half dozen examples where hospitals have stopped selling drugs and private pharmacists have set up. That policy continues .Soif you are going to nail t."f}e Smallwood aeministration 1go at it1 but be consistent because the others are still doint it. MR.

PATTERSON: That policy was first inacted in Ne•,o~foundland in 1966 when L'le drugs were taken out of the Cottage hospital in Placent:ia and transferred to the drug store• That was a Liberal policy. I-__# - ~ -- - - :-- - -~ MR.ROBERTS: It is still there in 1979 under the Tory government M..~ .PATTEFSON: I am not trying to hide that. I mentioned the fact that these people down the shore - . 1496

December 11,1979 Tape No. 1785 AH-2 AN RON .~.filER: It is still an (5.naudible) policy. I can name you six or seven MR. PATTEPSON: But it is not a good policy. It is not a good policy. That is all I have to say on this bill. I support ~~e bill. It is a good bill. It does not go far enough and I am sure once the oil is found off the coast there in sufficient quantities 1~e will be able to provide our senior citizens with drugs. SOME EON. ME1$ERS : Here, here! HR. SPEl'.KE"f' :_ (Butt) If ~~e hon. ~inister of Health spea<s now he closes the detate. The hon. Minister of Health. MR.HOtTSF: Mr.

Speaker, I just wnnt to thank the han. me~bers for their support of the bill. I also want to co~mend t.!'l.e Leaoer of the Opposition (Mr.Jarnieson) and my colleague here for their remarks and I do not ~rant to let it go without saying ~"at I did have excellent advice from my staff, the Deputy and other merr~ers of the staff. New I want to get down to a couple of the points that were made there. The member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts) was mentioning the differential in price.

It is very, very dangerous,! think, to say that we can save twenty-five per cent or $1 million on the indigent drug programme because you do not know exactly what can happen. I do not expect that the prices will remain static,what they are now. AN HON .MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. HOUSE: There is,yes, my number. There was perhaps an eight~ per cent saving in some drugs, particularly when you can get them for two cents in one situation and you can get them for seven in another. l~R. ROBERTS: for just a s~~ond? If the hon. minister would yield The ones I choose , the two I gave, were very high volumn.

Those two classes of drugs may together account for as much as fifty per cent of the prescriptions written, or whatever the phrase is -issued, ll'ade , prescribed-in this Province, so it is significant in that sense. I just did not take an isolated exar.~le or two, I took the ·1497

December 11,1979 Tape No. 1785 AH-3 MR. ROBERrS: big ohes. MP.EOUSE: I want to mention tllat in that particular group there is first something like six partic:ular drugs and they do range from two cents 1 or just below two cents to seven - between the highest price and tll!! l.ciwest price • The one other point there that he did ~~~ention, about who dispen.ses, we are aware that there are more. than pha:ouacist ::;> dispensing. We have, I think, in the Province, we have a lot of medical officers who do dispensing 1partiCUlarly in the remote areas. In one or two ca5es, I believe, we still have nurses dispensing.

We are teyi119 to eliminate that. The Pharmaceutical ~sociation itself is trying to eliminate that,but Of course you ~rill not b.e able to do that until such a time as the p.rovince is properly MR.ROBERT.S: And in so doing it, in fact, you are going a<,;ainst the point advocated because that is why hospitals are being stopped from prescribing drugs. You cannot have it both wa.y. MR.EOUSE: Now we get back to numl)e,z- 3B(2f. Now the han. l!lember !llenti .oned, I think, where the lowest price substitute drug is not generally available within the Province. 1498

Decemoer 11, 1979 ~ape :.lo. 1786 IB-1 ~IR. RO:CERTS: Yes. I wonc;er who detenni..:l.cS that. l1R. HOUSE: Well,I think it will be deten~ed perhaps the department and the formulary, the people who develope the formulary, I guess. The reason for that particular phrase tnere or that p~rticular clause is the fact t.'lat there may be sor.;e tin;e that tile finr.s are not able to supply and in the event of a strike, for instance, the Roche firm may have a strike and c:J.Y.£•ot supply the drug. In that case you would not have to pay for the cheapest drug, you would pay for the second or whatever one was available. ~!R.

RCJ:c.i:.IaS' 1hey will be notified, will they? HR. liOUS:E.: Yes. HR. ROBER'IS: You know,a flier will go out saying here are the generally available drugs this week or this month. i·!R. liOUSE: Right. I think that ·.-auld l:.e the • proper channels, the proper '<<ay to do it. LJow the other one that the hon. rr.eillber mentioned there was

section 8 and I eo not know if that should be in t.~ere at all to begin with because - MR. ROB.E..i:crS: Oh 1yes it should be, yes. MR. HOUSE : Well 1 I just want to point out that the first is there just absolving people from blame for followiny tile ac~. ).!R. ROBERTS : If the rr'inister will yield for a mor..ent? MR. :OOUSE: Right. i1R. ROBERTS : I suggest to him, Mr. Speaker, it ought to be in there because otherwise you could have - I know it is asinine,but as somebody in Dickens said, 'The law is an ass!

You could have somebody following the act and yet open to un action for damages because he had prescribed something. So I think it is relevant that it is in there although there might be a defense that, you know, a person following a statute. But the fact remains that it is easier to put it in there provided the negligence point is dealt vith. MR. nOl:SE; l1r. Speaker, what I was going to say is that all ti.at is doing is saying there will be no action taken agaL,st a pharmacist for following t~= law or for living up to the tenets of 4499

December 11, 1979 Tape tio • l 786 IB-2 HR. liOUSE: thls act. There is a Pharntaceutical Act MR. ROB:t;IU'S: not what that

section says. MR. HOUSE: That is not what it say3. That is - that makes a pharmacist liacle if he, for instance, over-prescribes, if he gives a ten milligram j?ill rather than a two and of course it knocks somebody out,that is taken care of in another act. MR. ROBERTS: I am not (inaudible). MR. hOUSE: But possibly, Nr. Speaker, if '-'e - and it is not changing it, it is just perhaps clarifying it by sayi~g perhaps for ~~e purpose of avoiding doubt it is hereby declared that no action lies against any person by reason only of the prescribing or dispensing of a substitute drug in accordance with ~~is act. :1R.

ROBERTS: MR. nOUSE: HR. ROBE:KTS: words like ~'"lat and I ~'llnk that - It is the san-,e thing pretty v:ell. If the ~inister would yield again since, you know, we are in an interesting and constructi•1e dialogue. He, I would suggest, might consult with the legal officers because, as to;e •1ave all leamed, there is nothing causes Irore grief than a:zr,endr.:ents being drafted other than by the officers who do it.

But that sort of thing would do it or we could add notwithstar1ciing, you know, the negligence or what have you ,but that sort of thing, sure. 'hlat Wl.ll take care of it. ~- EOUSE: we are in third reading. MR. ROBERTS: reading. 11R. nOUSE: Mr . Speaker, we will lock at that \\'heil No, no we will not, no. Comr~ttee Cotranittee reading. Mr. Speaker, with regard to the senior citizens 1 of course this act is net, this is only

an act to prescribe lower cost perscription drugs but I will point out that tl.ere are a number of drugs that we are prescribing in the indigent drug programme, there are senior citizens who have a lot of dr.1gs, for instance, insulin and that sort of tiring r and if "1500

December 11, 1979 'la;.e i'lo. 1786 I.B- 3 l,tiL :.:ousE:: they only have the income t.>:ey !'lave fror:t old age pensions , U: a lot of cases they a.re prescribed •.:it.h a dr.uq card and of cour se we ave one very particular one. thac is the cystic fibrosis for younger children or for anybody. Clf course 1 they all get fre;, drugs. Anci we still have, of course, the dental programme which is e).:tenci,ed and ~uite a good programme. So we are not complet ely void when it is helping out ~ople who are in need . so , ~!r. Speaker, I "ould t.ank member s once again for ·t heir support on tl'lis bill anC.

I move secon d reaciing. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Pro'l!l.O.e :'or Th e Provision Of Lower Cost .?resciptio ·n Drugs", reac a second time, ordered referred to a colll!littee of t he ~fnole House or. tor::.orro 1.: . iBill ,·o. 121. Order 4, ai~l o. 17. On motion , second reaCing of a bill, ";.n Act Respecting Str.all Claims". (!lill ao. 17) .Y.R. SFEA..l\:ER: The non. President of the Cc;mc i l . '1501

December ll, 1979 Tape 1787 PK- 1 Mr. Mar shall : Mr. Speaker, this,although a significant Act, I do not it will probably engender a great deal of debate, although I would be very interested to hear what any hon. member may wish to say with respect to it. This Small Claims Bill will be the second bill that we propose to present to this House for the purposes of replacing the present

Summary Jurisdiction Act. The other bill that will be presented to the House will,if we get to the next order of the Day 1 will be order 5. This p3....-ticular bill, the Small Claims Bill would provide a framework for rules on practice and procedure to deal specifically with small claims. One important change in this bill is that jurisdiction in small claims would be increased to the amount of $1,000. In other words, the Small Claims Court which is envisaged will be considering amounts of up to $1,000.

At present the Provincial Courts jurisdiction is limited to $500, as hon. members may know, particularly the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms), except in the cases of municipal taxes in which cases then the jurisdiction of the court is $1,000. This is , for members who may not be aware, the jurisdiction then of the Provincial Courts, formally known as magistrate courts.

The bill also provides for a rules committee to make rules and proce.;J.ures relating to small claims including costs, recording, and pleadings in small claims,because it is necessary and the government is very concerned about implementing a means whereby small claims can be dealt with expeditiously and as cheaply as possible. The Provincial Court judge would have the power to subpoena necessary withesses, this is also in the bill.

The present provisions,as I say, ofthe SU11111lary Jurisdiction Act providing for examinab.on of a judgementdebtor and order for payments by him in appropriate installments have also been included. The court itself, of course, as any Provincial Court,will provide that appeals may in certain instances be made to the District court. So in essence really what this does is it sets forth~ it amends, and replaces the

Summary Jurisdiction Act to 1502

December 11, 1979 Tape 1787 PK - 2 Mr. Marshall: provide with respect to small claims, and I think the most important,salient matter about this bill is that it increases the jurisdiction to $1,000. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hen. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, in connection with this bill, I think the president of the Council (Mr. Marshall) touched on a couple of things that I was going to mention in connection with it as well.

I am assuming in this particular bill that the figure .of $1,000 is just in a sort of- I am not sure what the rationale, you know, it was just plucked out of the air, it is an arbitrary figure. And I am not so sure that we could not give jurisdiction to the Small Claims Courts of a figure a little higher than this, maybe even double it to $2,000. But be that as it may, it is an arbitrary figure and I am certainly glad to see the figure being raised from $500.

The Rules Committee is also an extremely good idea in connection with this matter, so that rules can be made that would make it a little easier for the person who is owed smaller amounts of money to go into court and be able to use the process of the law to collect the money that is owed.

And, of course, to make it easier so that the ordinary individual who is owed a small amount of money can go in without s battery of lawyers with him, because in lots of cases, of course,where you do have a small amount of money owing people are reluctant to use the courts because, you know, you recover $100 and you pay a lawyer $150 and it is not a very good return on your investment. I would like to ask the President of the Council to confirm or otherwise in connection with tb.is particular

section the Rules Committee is to consist of, the ones who will make the rules, consist of two judges, one of whom is the chief judge- that, of course, is the chief judge of the Provincial Court under this Act- a member of the Law Society of Newfoundland designated by the Benchers , appointed by the Benchers,and then one person designated -.

December 11, 1979 Tape 1788 118 - 1 l1R. THOMS: by the Attorney General. This gives me just a little bit of hesitation. I have not had the opportunity really to give it a great deal of thought. I am wondering if the idea behind this particular - the appointment of one person by the Attorney General is that this would-be a layman who would serve on this oommittee.

I suppose that in the strict sense if it is not to be a layman ~~en of course you really have three people representing·~~e Department of Justice or the Attorney General on this committee because really the Attorney General is the boss in a sense of the judges. For myself 1 I would like to see here a lay person being represented on this committee, who, I think, could bring some good ideas to such a rules committee when they formulate the rules in connection with the practice and procedure and so on.

Apart from that 1I believe the President of the Council mentioned the fact that it is a new procedure to give the judge the authority to subpoena a witness or any person who is necessary to be a witness to appear before the judge. I do not think this act needs a great deal of debata, Mr. Speaker, except to say that we will support it. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) If the hon. the President of the Council speaks now and he will close the debate. .!"-~· MARSHALL: I would just like to reply briefly to the few items mentioned by the hon. member for Grand Bank, Mr. Speaker.

First of all,I would agree with him, as he indicateS., that t.':Le selection of any aJ:!k:)unt has to to be arbitrary The fact that it is ~a $1,000 I think is indicative of inflation. It was not so long ago-it was $200 1.and then it went to $500 and now it is $1,000. AN HON. ME.."'BER: (Inaudible) !1R. MARSHALL: He suggests $2,000. I have no doubt in ...... --.......--- the not too distant future it probably will go to there, but we had to pick a figure and Sl,OOO was thought to be the reasonable one.at the time.

With respect to the rules committee, I think his suggestion is quite good that we should have really a layman on that rules committee and I will . 4504

December 11, 1979 Tape 1788 MB - 2 MR. ~lARS HALL: . certainly pass it on to the Minister of Justice. I do not think,though,~at we would like necessarily to provide that it should be a