Manitoba Hansard — 23 May 1984 (Sitting 27, 32nd Legislature, 3rd Session)

32-3-27

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

I ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 27 - 2:00 p.m., WEDNESDAY, 23 MAY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARR OLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOS TY RA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLI NG, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIE R, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCH ARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vie SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKI W, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D.

James Constituency Ste. Rose Springfield Thompson La Verend rye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Vir den Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Rus sell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flan lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP IND NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 23 May, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERI AL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to file the 13th Annual Report of the Manitoba Law Reform Commission; the Annual Report of the Manitoba Police Commission; and the 1983 Annual Report of the Ma nitoba Hum an Rights Commission. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a statement to make. Mr. Speaker, I would like to announce today the results of an in-depth investigation of 22 active and inactive landfill sites in Manitoba. The investigation was part of the second phase of a federal-provincial study into Manitoba landfills.

The study determined that eight of the sites, those at Baldur, Douglas, Little Black River Indian Reserve Number Nine, Mariapolis, Neepawa, Ninette, Rapid City and Shellmouth do not require additional monitoring or remedial work. lt was indicated that activities at these sites have not adversely affected public health or the environment. However, additional monitoring and other work will be performed at the remaining 14 sites. My department and Environment Canada will be working with the mu nicipali ties involv ed to carry out ma ny of the recommend ations proposed. In accordance with this, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to announ ce today that the Ma nitoba and Federal Gove rnment s have each commi tted $40,000 for additional monitoring work at these and other landfills in the province. This work will be undertaken immediately and is expected to be completed in one year. I will now briefly detail some of the findings of the studies as well as some of the work which will be performed. In Brandon, methane gas was detected in two occupied commercial buildings on the aband oned landfill located at Victoria Avenue East and Twelfth Street. Gas migration is also occurring both on and off the site.

As a result, additional gas probes will be installed around the site; floor probes and air in the commercial buildings will be monitored daily and gas probes outside the buildings will be monitored initially on a weekly basis. As a precaution, some residences and buildings adjacent to the landfill site will be checked for the presence of methane gas. lt has been recommended in the studies that the sites at both Portage la Prairie and Virden should be relocated as soon as possible.

Activities at these sites have contamina ted groun dwater used for drinking purposes and as a result additional monitoring of wells in the vicinity of these two sites will be conducted. Five sites, those of Naplnka, Rivers, Winnipegosis, Swan River and Miniota require immediate upgrading of operational procedures. The report indicates that some of the contamination of groundwater has resulted and it is recommended that consideration be given to relocating these sites. Additional test drilling and well sampling will be conducted at the Winnipegosis and Swan River sites.

In Miniota the operation of the town's sewer system will be investigated and upgraded if necessary since this has been identified as partly responsible for well contamination. The report states that five closed sites at Stony Mountain, Winkler, Minnedosa, Stonewall and CFB Shilo should be properly covered to prevent additional dumping. Well monitoring will also be conducted in the vicinity of some of these sites. Mr. Speaker, in closing, I would just like to add that the reeves and mayors of the municipalities involved are being notified of the results of the study.

I should also mention that the detailed reports on these sites are available for examination upon request. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I also would like to thank the Honourable Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health. The report seems to be quite consistent with what was expected, otherwise we never would have had to look for this report in the first place.

There has been contamination and things of this nature going on for many years and I'm glad to see that the government has decided that they were going to proceed in all haste at this point. I think that the government should take into consideration, and they have mentioned it, but consultation with the different municipalities concerning the regulations should be an ongoing factor. I think that the government should make some attempt, or at least advise now, what assistance will be coming to the municipalities If and when there has to be relocation of some of these places where there has been contamination.

We'll be looking forward to seeing that the recommendations are carried out and at no greater cost than what has been indicated. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before Oral Questions may I direct the attention of honourable mem bers to the gallery. 1092

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 We have 120 students of Grade 5 standing from the Buchanan Elementary School under the direction of Mrs. Brown. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Legislation - appearance of MR. SPEAK ER: Th e Ho nour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. My question is for the Premier. The Attorney-General has circulated amendments which he is proposing to The Liquor Control Act, but is unwilling to bring forward if the opposition is opposed.

As well, in his capacity as Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, he has circulated proposed amendments to The Securities Act, which the Chairman of The Securities Commission says are urgently required to be made, but the Minister has indicated that he is reluctant to bring it forward if the opposition has serious reservations, or would want to debate it at any particular length.

My question to the Premier is, will he now turn over the reins of office to the defacto government, the Progressive Conservative Party in opposition, or better still, will he call an election so that the people can clear the air and have a government in place that will be willing to carry on as a government should and bring forward necessary and urgent legislation when it's required? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, it appears that the Leader of the Opposition must have had a very fitful night last night, and must be living indeed some sort of - I don't know what to say - carry-over from that fitful night that he had last night. I trust that as the day proceeds he will become just a little bit more restful than obviously he was last night. The Attorney-General, I'm sure, will respond to the specific questions pertaining to the draft legislation. HON. L. DESJARDINS: One min ute they want co operation ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, so much for co operation.

You know, I recall, Mr. Speak er, in the last Session when the Leader of the Opposition as a memb er, not Leader of the Opposit ion, came over and sat down to talk to me about co-operation on certain bills. Apparently that isn't a two-way street. Both of the proposed sets of amendments are technical, non political, and we wanted to make sure that the opposition was aware, and if they had any concerns that indeed they were not technical that we would be aware of that. Well, I want to say to the Leader of the Opposition and the Member for St.

Norbert that if that's their view of co-operation, to turn it around and make of it the kind of thing that they've made of it, then let them go back to their nightm ares. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, co-operation is one thing, and certainly we on this side want to be co-operative. We want to ensure that the busine ss of the House proceeds but, Mr. Speaker, when the manner of co operating is to place before the opposition a threat that says, and I quote . . . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G. FILMON: . . .

"This is an urgent request by the Chairman of the Securities Commission, but I would be reluctant to place it on the Order Paper for this Session if the opposition had serious reservations and would want to debate the matter at some length. " Mr. Speaker , is the gove rnment prepared to take responsibility to bring forward urgent legislation, or is it now wanting to turn it over to the opposition to run the affairs of the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't recall whether or not ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H.

PAWLEY: . . . the Member for Tuxedo, the Leader of the Opposition, was in the Legislature. I believe it was in the Session of 1980 when I thought in fact the former Attorney-General had done a very reasonable thing in the dying days of the Session. Towards the end of the Session there was a very complex, a very detailed Mechanics Lien Act, as I recall, and the Member for St. Norbert, the former Attorney General, said if in fact the opposition is able to accept it, fine, we can proceed with it. If the opposition is not able to, then it will be held over till the following Session.

Tha t seems to me to be a co-operative and reasonable approach, and I believe it parallels with the approach of the present Attorney-General. Certainly when we are dealing with matters of extreme technical, legal, complex matters, it is a matter that involves input, satisfactory opportunity for members, as indeed the Member for St. Norbert gave members on our side, when we sat in the opposition, sufficient opportunity in order to peruse that complex, that very detailed Mechanics Lien Act. I think it was back In 19 80 that indeed that took place. So, Mr.

Speak er, if the Leader of the Opposition is indicating he doesn't want co-operation and wants us to table legislation of a very complex, detailed nature that would involve all the finest lawyers in Philadelphia to deal with in a great period of time, we can do that. But I would think, Mr. Speaker, that the Leader of the 1093

Wedneeday, 23 May, 1984 Opposition would appreciate an opportuni ty to ensure that in matters such as complex, legal areas that he would indeed wish adequate time for consultation. If not, the Leader of the Opposition can indicate so to us and we can proceed with the legislation. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I concur with the statement of the Premier about The Builde rs Lien Act, which was a very complex act of over 100 pages, but since he doesn't appear to be aware of this so-called very complex te chn ical act th at the Mi nister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs has given us, I'll table it. lt consists of three pages which he is reluctant to bring forward un less we promise not to debate it. So I'll table it, Mr. Speaker. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Again, I'm somewhat at a loss as to what the Leader of the Opposition is - I remember his former leaders from time to time used to suggest that members were acting like a wet hen. I wouldn't like really to go that far, Mr. Speaker, but again I'm rather surprised at the over reaction on that part of the Leader of the Opposition. Obviously if the Leader of the Opposition is indicating to us that there are no serious legal problems or no complex issues, that they're satisfied with the draft legislation, then surely in a very straightforward, a very simple way, advice can be submitted.

Let us proceed with a technical, legal bill and proceed and complete it. Lotteries MR. SPEA KER : The Honourabl e Memb er for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question to the Minister in charge of Lotteries and would ask him in light of the court decision handed down yesterd ay, which will not allow retailers of lottery tickets to sell both the Federal Government's lottery as well as the Western Lottery products, could the Min ister inform the House whether or not the Western Lotteries Foundation will be allowing retailers who opted to sell both, and who were then subsequently cut off by the 6/49, to rethink their position if they want to and to keep on selling the Manitoba product rather than the federal product? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, if some of these people come to their senses, there's no doubt that we'll look favourably on their request. Burns plant closure MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS : I would like to pose my question to the Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health. Because of the environmental impact, has the Minister of Environm ent been part of the discussions with Burns in trying to keep the plant open at Brandon? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourabl e Minis ter for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the member would like to put a little more detail in his question. I'm not aware of what environmental impact he's referring to. The plant closing in Brandon, as far as I know, has primarily an economic impact, and if he's referring to an environmental impact I would like him to specifically state in his question what he's referring to. MR. A. KOVNATS: Yes, I was making reference to the environmental impact. Because of the possible health hazards of decaying dead animals, what preparation has the Minister taken to replace the rendering facilities that will be lost at Brandon? HON. G.

LECUYER: I am not aware of what measures have been taken at this point. We'll have to take that question under advisement. MR. A. KOVNATS: Well, I don't want to go into too great a detail, because the Honourable Mi nister's Estimates will be coming up pretty soon, and even though he asked for more details, I don't think that would be wise for me at this time to go into greater detail. But there is a big concern concerning the closing of the rendering plant at Brandon and it doesn't appear to be economical for a rendering firm in Winnipeg to go all the distance to Brandon to pick up the dead animals.

Will the Province of Manitoba, the New Democratic Party Government of Manitoba, assist rendering plants from Winnipeg, which will be the closest ones to serve that facility, will they assist in a financial way in picking up the debts, if and when the plant closes at Brandon? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is hypothetical. The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, it's not that I'm challenging your ruling on it being hypothetical, but would the Minister investigate that when the plant closes, what facilities will be available for rendering dead animals in Brandon? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, clearly the rephrasing is still a hypothetical question. The question of whether or not the plant will close is still very much up in the air and that question has not been addressed, although there are discussions ongoing. MR. A. KOVNATS: To the Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health, can the Honourable Minister advise whether there has been any discussions with the Provincial Government and Burns in upgrading the facilities for rendering at the Brandon Burns Plant? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can neither confirm nor deny that, Mr. Speaker, but on the other hand, I can assure the member across, 1094

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 all members across that if and when Burns should be closing in Brandon and before that, we will look into the matter, in terms of determining what alternatives are available in terms of a rendering plant for farmers located in the vicinity of Brandon or southwestern Manitoba. Camperville - education MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Education.

I would ask the Minis ter if she can confirm whether she or any senior staff members from her department have met with the so-called Mini ster of Education from Camperville, to discuss the education services with respect to that Metis community? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Could have had my job last night, Mr. Speaker. However, the Deputy Minister had a meeting with the - 1 can't remember his name - no with the gentleman concerned and it was to provide information to him about the laws that allowed or did not allow us to pay out funds to school divisions.

In that information - and I have followed up in a written letter from me providing all this information - we told him that we were not able, under the existing laws, to pay out money to any other than a legally constituted school division or District No. 1 and if a commun ity is concerned about quality of education or any other matter, they have a procedure that they can follow and that is the Board of Reference and it only requires 10 resident electors to sign the petition to request that a hearing for a boundary change take place. So we basically informed him that there were two routes for them to follow.

One is to work with the existing board to improve the quality of education; or secondly, to apply to the Board of Reference to have a boundary change and have a separate school division set up for their children. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I direct a further question to the Minister. Was any commitment given to Mr. Richards with respect to that communi ty becoming part of the Frontier School Division? HON. M. HEM PHILL: No, Mr. Speaker. lt was a long night last night. I've almost forgotten the question, but not quite, Mr. Speaker.

There was no commitment made that they could join Frontier because that's not what they have decided to do. They realized there are a number of options. One is that they may join Frontier School Division, or they may choose to. The other is that they may ask for a Board of Reference hearing to separate and have a smaller separate school division, or to try and work out some negotiations and work under the umbrella of the school division. Since they clearly have not made up their mind what it is they want to do, it's premature to give any indi cation of approval.

However, they know what the procedure is and that we will follow it very quickly should they decide to use it. MR. D. GOURLAY: A further supplementar y, has the Minister or any members of her department had any discussions with the Duck Mountain School Division with respect to the Camperville situation? HON. M. HEMPHILL: I think that we're in frequent communication with school divisions and are continually talking about their needs and their problems as we are with that school division and many others. So there has been some discussions.

My understanding is that the position that the board is taking is that they're quite prepared to sit down and talk about the issue of quality of education, because they have some of the same concerns that are being presented by the parents. There clearly are some problems that have to be dealt with and they're willing to explore them. The other position they're taking is that un til something happens to determine otherwise, they are legally responsible for the education of those children and will continue to carry out those duties until there is a change in the legal responsibility. MR. D.

GOURLAY: One final question, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister indicate whether there are any further meetings contem plated or sched ule d with the Camperville people regarding their education services? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I believe that what we have done to date has provided adequ ate information and sufficient information to them to outline the procedures that they follow should they choose to follow them.

We have also indicated to them that once they make their choice and have decided what they do, if they get in touch with my department we'll give all the information and help that we can in order to speed up the process or make sure that it goes through in a reasonable period of time. The ball, so to speak, is in their court. Video cassette regulations MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Cultural Affairs. Does the Film Classification Board now classify, censor, or regulate video cassettes for the home market in Manitoba? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, no. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister monitoring the new legislation regarding video cassettes being intr od uced in the Province of Ontario? HON. E. KOSTRYA: Mr. Speaker, we are aware of the introduction of legislation, I believe it was yesterday, 1095

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 in the Province of Ontario. We'll be reviewing that once we receive a copy of that legislation. MR. R. DOERN: Can the Minister indicate whether there is a classification, or censor provision, regarding video cassettes in any of the Canadian provinces at present? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Perhaps the Honourable Member for Elmwood would wish to ask his question on an ar ea within the administrative competence of this government, not of other provinces. Alcohol Foundation - library MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Honou rable Minister of Health. I would ask him whether he has had time to pu rsue an answer to a question that was asked by my colleague, the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek last week, relative to a letter that went out from an info rmation ar ea mana ger for the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba indicating that the William Potoroka Memorial Library was going to close its doors to the public? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Yes, I could give my honourable friend the same answer as I gave last week that that letter as far as the government, as far as myself is concerned, was premature. There are discussions that had gone on before that between myself and the Executive Director. I'm pretty confident that we'll be able to service the people in the library. What we'r e trying to do is to prevent, or to stop, any duplication the same as the lib raries that come un der my hvnour able friend the Minister of Culture. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, would it be fair and reasonable then to conclude that the Minister is giving this House and the public, who draw on that resource, the assurance that the William Potoroka Memo rial Library is not going to be closed to the public? HON. L. DESJARDINS: lt would be pretty close. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the reasons given for the proposed closure had to do with budgets and financing of the position involved would the Minister agree or concur that it would seem an un reasonable step to take in view of the fact that the AFM is advertising in the Winnipeg Free Press at the present time for an external progr am consultant, in a salary range from $32,000 to $39,000 per annum, and for a community programs person in a salary range of $35,000 to $43,000 per annum. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Asking for the Minister's agreement is asking for an opinion.

Perhaps the honourable member would wish to rephrase his question to seek info rmation. MR. L. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, can the Minister assure the House that if the AFM is in a position to advertise in the Winnipeg Free Press at the present time for two senior persons who would be paid in the range of $32,000 to $43,000 a year in the programs field that it will then not be agreeable to him that the William Potoroka Library should be reduced in staff? MR. SPEAKER: I'm not sure whether there was a question in there. The Honou rable Minister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Can I answer the first question? lt was much clearer. MR. L. SHERMAN: Perhaps I could go back to my original question, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister confirm that the AFM is advertising for two community programs people, in salary ranges from $32,000 to $43,000 a year, and if that's the case does it seem reasonable that there should be any thought being given to the closure of the William Potoroka Library? MR. SPEAKER: The second part of the question is hypothetical. The Minister may answer the first

part if he wishes. The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I think that in times like we'r e going through, of course, you have to priorize and some of the programs might have to be terminated or cut a bit. The situation is though that if any of the programs are going to replace old programs, that will have to be discussed before and that wasn't done at this time. Alcohol - education MR. L. SHERMAN: One final supplementa ry, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Minister for the efficient way he dealt with that series of questions. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister advise the House of when the new Education Program developed by the Alcoholism Foundation Educational Advisory Council will be in place in the schools? I remind him that there was a progr am developed to replace the old program of Building the Pieces Together. lt's sitting on a shelf somewhere and I would ask him, when is that program going into the schools? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I think that this question would be better directed to the Minister of Education.

Our department through the Alcohol Foundation will develop programs but it is up to the Minister of Education as to what will be taught in the schools of Manitoba. STEP Program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r fo r La Verendrye. 1096

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister in charge of the Treasury. Board and would ask him whether he could inform the House whether he instructed the Minister of Emplo yment Services to cut back the Student Temporary Employment Program this year by some $1 28,000.00? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co-op Development. HON. J. COWAN: Well, I think that the member who asked that question, and who was a member of Cabinet perviously, understands the process very well, therefore I shouldn't need to elaborate upon it for him.

The decisions that were made as a part of the Estimates process are decisions that are made by Cabinet as a whole, and they have the support of Cabinet as a whole, and I don't think any more need be said about that. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister then. I wonder if he could then inform the House in light of this $12 8,000 cutback in one of the student emplo yment programs, will the Minister inform the House whether that money was used in the Jobs Fund to advertise their job creation programs? HON. J.

COWAN: Well, I think there are a large number of Jobs Funds projects which are available to individual busin esses, to individuals within the province, to non profit organizations such as community organizations, groups, and co-operatives, credit uni ons, Caisses Populair es, and that those people should be made aware of the availability of those funds to assist them during these difficult economic times.

The Jobs Fund has been developed to provide that sort of long-term and shorter-term support to our economy. lt is a project of which we are very proud, and it is a project to which we believe every organization, regardless of the sophistication of their information gathering system, should have equal access. That is why we tell the people about it. lt is a program that has provided innum erable benefits to this province, will continue to do so, and should be accessed freely by individuals who might make use of it. They need to know about it. We will make them aware of it. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Sp eak er, in light of the government's drive to spend millions of dollars on informing people of what's happening in this province will he use a few of those dollars to inform the people of Manitoba that this government cut back $128,000 out of a Student Aid Program which, Mr. Speaker, has once again put some students at a disadvantage in this province? HON. J. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, I won't believe that students of this province were in anym ore of a disadvantage than they were under the time that that member was a member of government.

The types of impositions that were imposed upon the student body of this province were well known when, in fact, there were mass protests in front of this building that were directed at that government's activities and rightly so because they did not have the wherewithal, the courage, or the consideration to make certain that students were not unduly imposed upon by their actions. What the member has done now is taken one specific project, and one specific numbers of dollars, and suggested that because of decisions that were made around that project we are imposing upon the student body in this province.

That is not the case; the record is very clear that that's not the case. Other members of Cabinet have indicated exactly what they are doing in order to support those students in their efforts to gain an education in this province, and we will continue to support students in their efforts to attain that education because we believe that it is for the long-term benefit of the province as a whole.

Certainly the member s can pick and choose on whatever programs they want, but if they want to be accurate in their analysis, in their assessment, in their proclamations, then they should take a look at what we are doing overall for the university sector, what we have done for the past couple of years, and what we will continue to do to ensure they have access to those educational opportuni ties. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourabl e Min ister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member raised this matter last night in our Estimate's review.

I made it clear at that time, with regard to STEP, there are more people under the STEP Program this year than last year. Furthermore, there's more money being spent under Careerstart. Mr. Speak er, there is some misapprehension, the STEP Program is only for jobs in government. I explained to the members there are many job opportunities in the private sector, and under our Careerstart Program there was an additional amount that will be spent this year over last year. Furthermore there are two or three other major programs for young people that have yet to be announced.

We had indicated that last night very clearly in Estimates, so the member is really misleading the House and misleading the public by asserting that there is less money being available for job creation. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister should not accuse another honourable member of misleading the House. The Honourable Minister of Emplo yment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speak er, I didn't imply that the member deliberately was trying to mislead the House, but that type of statement gives the wrong impr ession as to what's actually happening.

There's more money being spent for job creation for young people this year than there was last year. There will be more jobs created than last year. MR. SPEAKER: With that explanation, the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, a simple question to the Minister of Employment Services. Could he confirm 1097

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 that in his Estimates this year the information that he tabled yesterday, that in the STEP, Student Employment Program, he has allocated $128,000 less than last year? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, this is really a repeat of our Estimate's discussion which went on last night and which will go on soon, but the amount of money that the honour able member -okay, the honourable member is talking about a very small amount. We're talking about $128,000 that he referred to, out of a total of $2,249,100, so that is a fractional amount.

We are talking about 868 students who will be employed this year compared to 862 last year. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, and I repeat, that this is a program for . MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honou rable Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I ask you, Sir, to recognize that a straightforward question was asked about a very specific program, a prog ram that we are all familiar with, a program that has its individual line in the Estimates books, and certainly the Minister can answer: is there less money in that app ropriation than there was last year? That was the question. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able Government House Leader to the same point. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the same point of order. Mr.

Speaker , although question per iod has traditionally been used as opposition time, but is certainly time that belongs to all member s who are not member s of the Executive Council, I would submit that it's an abuse of question period to ask Ministers during question period for confirmation, since confirmation questions, Sir, are no rmally out of order to begin with, to ask questions for confirmation of material that was presented and is on the record of this House the very night before in Estimates. What we have here, Mr. Speaker, is Estimates review through question period.

Sir, that's patently out of order and then to bring into question period, by repetition, questions of confirmation is certainly out of order. Mr. Speaker, for member s opposite to then complain that the facts that are being presented are in some way far too long in the way of answe rs, when they already know the answers, when they had the same questions last night in Estimates, when really the only purpose for doing it is because last night in Estimates there wasn't any media there, I think it's an abuse of this whole question pe riod in the way games are being played in question period in this House.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I can hear only one membe r at a time. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker. the Government House Leader knows full well . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside to the same point. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the Government House Leader knows full well that it is against our House rules to suggest that we are imputing motives in any way. I ask, in fact my colle ague, the Mem ber fo r La Verendrye, has a point of privilege. lt was the Minister who rose on his own accord to charge him with misleading this House. Mr.

Speaker, that is the matter of privilege and the matter of order that we have in this Chamber. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Lakeside's point of order is well taken. I think it is improper and I withdraw any suggestion of imputation of motives, but I must suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the rules of our question period and our House are being abused by the kind of tactics that are employed today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for La Verendrye to the same point. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We were trying to establish in this House whether or not this government had cut back eight to one Student Employment Progr am. lt was clea rly demonstrated last night, Mr. Speaker, and for the Minister of Employment Services to get up and try to indicate that I was misleading the House was totally wrong and for the House Leader now to impute motives to me is another example of this government trying to weasel out of a situation that is developing in the last little while. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

For the information of honourable members, Beauchesne does say in Citation 359(8), "A question that has been previously answered ought not to be asked again." If the honour able member s do have the information from Estimates or any other proceeding of the House, it is not a proper subject for question period. The Honour able Member for Roblin-Russell. Asessippi Provincial Park MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. Mr.

Speaker, at the time Asessippi Provincial Park and the Shellmouth Dam were developed 10 years ago, the Rural Municipality of Shellmouth lost some $83,000 in assessment and were promised compensation. Can the Minister advise me why now, when they're hiring an operator to manage the concession booth at Asessippi Provincial Park, they brought somebody in from Dugald, Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I'm not familiar with the alleged compensation due to the R.M. of Shellmouth 1098

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 and certainly not familiar with any recent appointment. I certainly can take that as notice. A MEMBER: Pork barrel. MR. W. McKENZIE: I thank the Honourable Min ister. Mr. Speaker, also can the Minister explain to the municipality and the various people out there as to the reason or reasons why the local people who tendered for the position were somehow turned aside? Is it the policy of this government to hire outsiders, when there are all kinds of local people there that are fully qualified to manage that concession booth? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I've indicated that I am totally unfamiliar with the competition or the appointment that the honourable member mentions; I've taken it as notice. I want to assure him and all members of the House that matters like that are left to competitions. I presume that this compet ition was held within staff and it was recommended. I certainly didn't see anything of it, and certainly to suggest that there's some favoritism has nothing to do with this Minister or this government. Tuberculosis outbreak on Indian· reserves MR. W. McKENZ IE: Mr. Spea ker, I thank the Honourable Min ister.

I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, Chief Longclaws and some of his band members called my office this morning and drew to my attention that the TB outbreak on the reserve last year - I believe there was some 23 cases, those cases have escalated to another 44 that are being monitor ed - I wonder, can the Minister advise the band and the community out there if he's prepared to send out some staff to take a look and see how serious the matter is at Waywayseecappo? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker , it's an odd situation where the request should not go through the Minister of Health, but through somebody in opposition. If they want any request from us, it would be that they should get in touch with us directly, then we would know what they want. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, just for clarification, do I understand that it's not the right channels to go through the Mini ster of Health regarding this matter or should they maybe go through the Department of Indian Affairs?

I'm still not sure what the Mini ster is referring to. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'm referring to the request that apparently was made, it should be made directly to the Department of Health. Burns plant closure MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Agriculture in his role in Cabinet in negotiating with the Burns Company in Brandon on their plant shut down. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to quote from the middle of the third or fourth paragraph in the Chairman's letter of the recently tabled Manitoba Hog Producers Marketing Board Report, tabled by the Min ister. "The ind ustry faces major competition from packing plants in the USA, who in many cases have fully modern and efficient operations, plus they have a labour rate and fringe benefit advantage of approximately 40 percent. This kind of competition will no doubt reflect the producers' returns being pressured downward in Canada." Mr.

Spea ker, my que st ion to the Min ister of Agriculture in his role in the Cabinet to prevent the closure of the Burns plant in Brandon, and in his negotiations between labour and management, has he made his Cabinet colleagues aware and knowledgeable of this statement by the Chairman of the Hog Producers Marketing Board? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. lt is not in order to quote an outside source and to use it as a subject of a question to the Minister. The honourable member should know that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The tim e for Oral Questions having expired, Orders of the Day. MR.

D. ORCHARD: On a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina on a point of order. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I beg your indulgence to indicate to me whether reports tabled by Ministers in this House may or may not be quoted from in paraphrasing questions to the Min ister. MR. SPEAKER: Questions are to seek information and should not be argumentative or to have matters quoted to the Minister. . Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Mini ster of Agriculture was seeking information from him, using information he had at his disposal.

Was my question out of order because I was seeking information, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. 1099

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I would like leave of the House to make a non-partisan statement. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Minister have leave? (Agreed). The Honourable Minister. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to bring to this House information about a unique activity taking place tomorrow in my constituency. Assiniboine School is holding its first Annual Safety Day. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first time a school in Manitoba has organized such an extensive, broad-based community event with a safety theme.

On May 24th, for the full afternoon, the students, parent-council, teachers and administration in conjunction with many government agencies and community groups are holding their first Annual Safety Day. The purpose of the event is to introduce the community to the many aspects of health, safety and accident prevention . Mr. Speaker, I am proud to note that this Safety Day embodies the principles of caring, compassion and co operat ion.

I am sure all members will join us in supporting Assiniboine School in its endeavor to unite parents, neighbours and students who are working together to make this school a safer and healthier place in which to grow. Through the co-operation of government and private agencies, this event is able to reach many people on a broad range of topics. Both the Fire and Police Departments are participating, along with the Humane Society, Workplace Safety and Health, Red Cross, Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and many others.

This will be a fun event starting with a school parade at 12:30 p.m. complete with banners and posters made by the students. In the afternoon. the classrooms will have displays and experts on hand to explain their services. The parent council will be serving coffee and light refreshments. On behalf of the organizers, I would like to invite all members of the House to attend. I would hope that the example set by the Assiniboine School in focusing the attention of young people, their parents and teachers on the broad aspects of safety will be a model which other schools may wish to emulate.

We wish them every success. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, without for a moment detracting the very worthwhile undertaking that the Assiniboine School is embarking on, I just want to bring to the attention, through you, Sir, and to the House that leave for non-partisan statements will be less inclined to be given if that privilege becomes abused in any way. Mr. Speaker, the tradition of the House is well-known.

We take a moment to record in the public record, recognize, particular achievements of Manitobans In sporting or in other events that are noteworthy. We don't, Sir, take that occasion to provide publicity occasions. We all have laudable affairs in our constituencies, we all have laudable undertakings by different public service groups in our constituencies, that we could all make a similar kind of statement that the Minister of Natural Resources just made.

I am only suggesting to the Government House Leader that a time-honoured tradition will go down the tube if it's abused and leave will not be granted for those kinds of statements in the future, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader on the same point. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the point of order raised by the honourable member opposite. lt is not the intention of members on this side to abuse that time-honoured tradition and we certainly believe that the Minister of Natural Resources has announced an important day and event in his constituency tomorrow.

We will take under consideration the concern the member has expressed that notices of this type may not be appropriate for non-partisan statements. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to make a non-partisan statement regarding achievement . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Leave has not been granted. The Honourable Government House Leader. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, it would be my Intention to move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply but I would ask also, Mr. Speaker, if there is leave from the House today to dispense with Private Members' Hour so we could sit in Committee of Supply until 5:30. If there is such leave, I would then add that to the motion and move that we sit in Supply through until 5:30. (Agreed) HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I would then move, seconded by . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MER CIER: On a point of order, Sir.

I think if the Government House Leader is going to move that sort of a motion, it should be appropriately made at 4:30, with all due respect to individual private members. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood to the same point. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, I think it would be appropriate for the House Leader to 11 00

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 indicate that he was going to ask for leave at 4:30 but not to ask for it in advance of 4:30. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I asked for leave. I thought I had received leave. I am doing this in the same fashion as has been done on each similar occasion this Session. The purp ose of asking at this point and moving straight into Supply is so that the committee will not have to rise, the Speaker be called in again, leave asked and the House return into commit tee.

Furthermore, on a Wednesday, Sir, when the House is not going to be sitting in the evening, the committee would then not know whether it should interrupt its proceedings at 4:30 or rise. If having risen at 4:30, it could not then, even with leave, reconvene. So, Mr. Speak er, I think the procedure is appropriate and, if there is leave, I will move the motion. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANS TETT: Mr. Spe aker, I would move, seconded by the Minister of Health, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House · resolve itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supp ly to be gr anted to Her Majesty with th e Honourable Member for The Pas in the Chair for the Department of Education; and the Honourable Member for Burr ows in th e Chair for the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security. CON CURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EMPLOYMENT SERVICES AND ECON OMIC SECURITY MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Comm ittee, please come to order.

We are presently considering Item No. 3.(b)

(3) Em ployment Services, Employment Development and Youth Services: Emplo yment Programs - the Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if I could ask the Minister if he has had the opportunity to get the information I requested yesterday at the be gi nning of the consideration of his Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. L. EV ANS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have some information now that I would like to give to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. I want to make it clea r, however - there seems to be some misu nderstanding - with regard to the date at which Mr.

Doug Davison left the department and joined this particular firm. I noticed in the Winni peg Free Press of tod ay, Wednesda y, May 23rd, that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is quoted, and perhaps he's misquoted, whereby he says that, "Doug Davison joined WMC last November, a month after the contract came into effect." Of course, that is not true. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition is shaking his head, so obviously he didn't say that to the press. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, if I may for the record, I did not indicate that Mr. Davison had joined WMC a month after the cont ract was negotiated .

My understanding is that he joined on or about the 13th of April. I am not certain as to the expiry date of the contract, but perhaps the Minister could indicate. My understanding is that it was in late March. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad that the honourable member clarified what he had said to the press. The fact is that the last day of employment of Mr. Davison with the government was April 13, 1984. I under stand he began employment with this consulting firm around the first week of May.

With regard to the contract itself, in answering the other questions of the member, the Leader of the Opposition, the contract with WMC Associates was to review various policy areas as part of a departmental effort to focus and repriorize the initiatives of the Employme nt Services Division. Now specifically, there were three areas to be reviewed. The first area was regarding the federal-provincial relations as they affect our employment and training programs. A great amount of money is cost-shared with the Federal Government, particularly under The National Training Act.

At that point, the department felt and the government felt that it was worthwhile to analy ze the contex t of these fe deral-provincial relationships with the primary emphasis between this department and the federal Department of Employment and Immigr ation. In this context, the consulting firm was to document the history of the federal-provincial agreements with the emphasis on training and employment policy and programming.

They were to examine the overall nature and operational aspect of federal-provincial relations in this area, and they were to construct estimates of a fiscal account of the relat ionship between the Manitoba Government and the Federal Department of Empl oyment and Immigr ation which would be used for future negotiations and fiscal planning between the province and Federal Government. In addition, under this topic, the firm was to provide suggestions for pos sible departmental rest ructuring and other organizational procedures that we may want to change. That was one area.

The other area to be considered by the consultants regarded Provincial Appr enticeship System and Program to review the most effective means of organizing and conducting the Apprenticeship Program and they were to look at various aspects, looking at the current legislation and the legislative practices, the regulatory practices to look at the various programs that we had in place and to make suggestions for improvements and maybe suggest even further analysis that should be done. The Apprenticeship Program, I might add, is still with the Departm net of Labour.

In addition, there was to be a review of the aviation and air indus try training in Western Canada. Using a 1101

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 recent develo pment we were going to use this as the model for future co-operative planning between the government and industry with respect to training and we were going to look at various aspects of that. There's a lot of detail on this, but we were looking at the Western Aviation Manpower Planning Board as an area to be studied and as a model for future industry training agreements. We have received some parts of this report; it's not complete.

In other words, it's still in the process of being received, but it's basically a report for internal operations and for negotiations with Ottawa. The Treasury Board app roved an expenditure of $52,400 for professional services and up to $15 ,000 for expenses which totals therefore $67,400.00. We anticipate, however, that the final expense will be lower than this. We anticipate that the final expenditures will be approxi mately $55,000 or about $12, 000 less than originally anticipated.

The contract work inv olves not one person, as the member referred to last night, but rather a team of three people are working on this and that Mr. Davison is not a part of this particular study group and is no way connected with this study, I'm advised. I think those were the general areas of concern that the member had. I've tried to cover all that I could remember at least. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if I could ask the Minister, who specifically has been delivering the services on this contract? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, the personnel involved, the project director is Mr.

Doug McArthur and the other two researchers are Mr. Rob Henderson and Mr. Jeremy Hull, H-U-L-L. MR. G. FI LMON: Mr. Ch ai rman, is the Mi nister indicating then that the work is still being done? HON. L. EVANS: lt's in the final stages. I understand. Yes, it's in the final draft stage that they've been working on, they've been doing some revisions, so we anticipate a final report soon. MR. G. FILMON: The Treasury Board approval was for a period of time expiring March 31, 19 84. Has that been extended? What agreements have been made with respect to that? HON. L.

EVANS: Well the amount that we're paying is as indicated. Normally when you pay out in a different fiscal year, it has to come out of that fiscal year, so not all of the money of course has been paid. We're holding back a large amount until the final report has been received, which is a prudent thing to do. I can dou ble-check, but normally the moneys paid out in this fiscal year come out of this fiscal year's appropriation. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Labour was quoted then on the 2nd of May, following my questions.

She was quoted publicly as saying that the report had been comple ted prior to Mr. Davison joining the firm. Was she in error? HON. L. EVANS: I understand at that point they had a second draft of the report, but it's still being revised, so I guess there was a draft report but it wasn't in the final finished stages that was acceptable. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, in fact the Minister of Labour was in error and did indeed give information to the media that was incorrect about that, that the report had not been completed in its final form at the point on May 2 when she gave that interview. HON. L.

EVANS: Well I would have to check. I'm not quite sure what she said. MR. G. FILMON: Well if the work is still being done and if a final report is still being worked on, she was obviously in error. We'll take that up with her. We'll pursue that with her. Obviously it's not a matter to be dealt with, with this Minister. I am curious, Mr.

Chairman, as to know why one of the principle parts of the investigation, that into The National Training Act and Federal-Provincial relations with respect to emplo yment training programs, that is an area that is almost totally funded and/or delivered by the Department of Education in co-operation with the Federal Government - I recognize that there is federal funding there - but the delivery of those training services and pr ograms is almo st tota lly by the Department of Education. Why would this department be funding a study into that? HON. L. EV ANS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, it's our department that has the responsibility for negotiations with Ottawa. We have a unit that specializes in The National Training Act negotiations and general admin istration of those funds. Those funds flow, based on the discussions we have with our counterparts in Ottawa and arrangements and agreements made. I discus sed this matter for example, with Mr. John Roberts a few months ago at a Federal-Provincial Conference and it is a matter that is dealt with by this department, The National Training Act.

Subsequentl y, of course, it's the Department of Education and to some degree the Department of Labour that delivers the training. That is correct. MR. G. FILMON: Was the objective to gain additional funding from the Federal Government to try and gain additional transfer funds? Is that what this firm was hired to instruct the government on? HON. L. EVANS: Specifically, to put us in a better position to negotiate better arrangements for Manitoba. Obviously, the general objective is to get as much federal assistance in various areas of employment training as possible.

So we felt that by obtaining some historical background and by looking into the whole spectrum of federal-provincial relations in this area, not only between Manitoba and Canada but what was going on with the other provinces and so on, would be to our advantage and we believe it will be to our advantage. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could indicate if he expects to be able to make public the report that he receives from this organization? 11 02

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, it wasn't our intention to make it public because it was meant to be a document that would provide gui d ance for us in negotiating with the Federal Government. I don't know whether it's in the public interest to make this available to the people ultima tely that we will be negotiating with. lt seems prudent and advisable to utilize it as an in house document for these purp oses. MR. G. FILMON: Will any of the recommendations put forward by this organization be made public? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, it is not our intent.

Hopefully , it will result in better programming and what will be made public, I suppose, if we're successfu l, is the fact that we are able to do more in the way of training and that we are able to get more federal dollars. This is a substantial amount of money we're talking about. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, $55,000 or $60,000 is a substantial amount of money to pay. I cannot find any indication that WMC Associates is registered either in Manitoba or Saskatchewan. Does the Minister have any idea why that company or that organization is not registered under either a business name or as a corporation? HON. L.

EVANS: I don't know why it's not registered, Mr. Chairman. But I want to point out with regard to The National Training Act that although the contract you suggest is a rather sizable sum of money, we're talking about a National Training Act which is up for renegotiation within the next few months. In 19 83-84, our budget, under The National Training Act - this is federal money - is well in excess of $51 million. We're talking about $51 ,343,000.00. A great chunk of that is moneys that go and flow to our educational institutions.

There are other kinds of moneys, training allowances, industrial training programs and so on. lt is very substantial and very very important to our thrust in training workers for the Manitoba labour market. But I would also point out that was only one element. There were a couple of other elements as well in the report. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairma n, is the Mi nister indicating that there is no one in the government service now who has any expertise or experience in negotiating these federal-provincial agreements? HON. L. EV ANS: Mr. Chairman, I'm not suggest ing that we don't have the negotiating skills.

We have the responsibility for the negotiations. What we're asking is for data, information. We want to have documentation so we can back up some of our arguments, but we will do the negotiating. it's our responsibil ity, not a private consulting firm. MR. G. FILMON: Is there no one within the government service who is capable of providing that data? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Ch airman, it's a matter of allocation of resources.

I was not the Minister at the time this decision was made, but I assume it was felt that it was the kind of work, because it was a one- time type of research effort, that it was advisable to use outside consultants. This is the eternal problem whether you do in-house research or you ask an outside agency to do research. I personally am inclined to do as much of this in-house as possible. That has been my view over the years. But from time to time, I recognize that it just makes sense to use an outside consulting firm.

I assume, given the workload of the research staff and others who could do this kind of research in-house, that they were perhaps tied up on other things and had other projects to be involved in, that this was the way to go to get this particular job done for the department. MR. G. FILMON: No further questions, Mr. _Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.( b)(3 ) - th e Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yesterday I asked the Minister for a series of statistics which he said he would be providing today. Maybe we could start off - or if he'd like me to ask the questions again, I could. HON. L.

EV ANS: Mr. Chairman, I have a number of statistics here and I'll be glad to provide this information at this time. I hope I have all the information that was requested. In the area of Careerstart- I'm not sure which member asked these, I believe the Member for Gladstone asked a number of questions as well. She asked a question on Careerstart advertising. I don't know whether she's listening or not, but the Member for Gladstone asked about the amount of money we spend on advertising the Careerstart Program in this year, and the number we have now, the estimate we've made is $41 ,689.00.

That's the total placement of the ads, primarily in newspapers, daily and weekly. We also had some in radio station announcements. But this is a very very minor portion of the total expenditure, which I imagine the member is interested in, it represents .005 percent of our total expenditure, so that is 1 /200th of 1 percent. it's a very minor amount, so that's the advertising. There was another question regarding applications received. In 1983, 4,406 appl ications were received; of these 4,272 were app roved and approximately $7.2 million was expended on 5, 776 positions. That's $7, 1 88,000 on 5,776 positions.

This year, 1984, we received 5,802 applications and, of these, 4,648 were approved, so that's roughly 400 more than last year, for a total of $8,468,826, representing 6,086 positions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Out of the 4,272 app roved last year, in other words, what was the take-up? What percentage are you looking at of people that have their applications approved and then don't take either the full length of time or just don't pick up on their approval? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, that is a phenomenon.

There's always a percentage, there will always be a percentage of drop-off, but I think that's indicated when I told you that we spent $7,1 88,000, that was the actual 11 03

Wedneaday, 23 May, 1984 expend iture I un derstand, and we actually had 5,776 jobs. This year we anticipate, because we believe we have a higher quality level of approval this year on the kinds of jobs, we don't anticipate the same fall-off. We think that our total spending will be well over $8 million this year. There's going to be some fall-off, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but we think there will be less. Our staff advises that we anticipate less fall-off because of the kinds of applications we approved. MR. R.

BANMAN: Has the Minister got sort of a percentage -like in'83 -was there 5 percent fall-off or what happ ened? HON. L. EVANS: Last year it was about 15 percent in dollar terms. lt was about a 15 percent drop-off or slippage or whatever term you wish to use. As I said, we anticipate this to be considerably less this year. MR. R. BANMAN: I wonder if he could give us what was approved in'83 and in '84 in the Estimates in his de partment for Careerstart? HON. L. EVANS: it's a bit complicated. We can get that information.

In last year's Estimates there were no dollars in this department for Careerstart, it all came from the Jobs Fund. This year we had $3.1 million given to our department and the balance was topped from moneys from the Jobs Fund. MR. R. BANMAN: Last year, all your funding came from the Jobs Fund and this year, some $5 million will be coming from the Jobs Fund. HON. L. EVANS: Approximately. MR. R. BANMAN: Some of the criteria this year was a policy where applications that came in, that instead of providing two or three to one em ployer, what they tried to do was go ahead an d app rove more applications.

I bring this to the Minister's attention because some of the people that did get two or three last year maybe applied for two this year and were cut down to one. That has caused a lot of problems out there because you can, un der the program, stipulate the individual that you'd be hiring. I kn ow one person in particular that hired three people last year under the program, had two people hired this year and then of course just before the second student was to start her work, her job, the em ployer was informed that he was only getting one student. So what has happ ened?

Have the criteria changed somewhat this year? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I believe we discussed this last night. I guess the member wasn't here at that time. As we indicated, there was a greater number of applications this year, and we did have to spread it around more . I also in dicated last night that in previous years the City of Winni peg, which now has about 60 percent of the Manitoba population, received something in the order of 25 percent to 30 percent of the total expen ditures. lt was really lopsided.

This is a Careerstart program for all of Manitoba. it's not a rural program, it's a province-wide program and this year there is a greater ex penditure in The City of Winnip eg - not 60 percent, but much more percentagewise than last year. We also noted last night, and I guess I'm repeating myself, that there is a higher level of un employme nt in the City of Winnip eg than there is for Manitoba as a whole, the exception being remote communities in the North.

But the un employment situation is worse in the City of Winnipeg than it is in rural Manitoba and of course, as I indicated there is a greater population of young people requiring jobs in the City of Winnip eg. This year , we were not able to accommodate employers for three jobs, perhaps as they've had last year, but because we have been more selective generally across the province, we believe that the quality of the job is better. In fact it usually is better.

Interestingly enough, an analysis of applications show that the first job applied for is usually better than the subsequent jobs, in terms of the kind of work that they have to do and the amount of skill involvement, etc. The criteria, basically, are outlined in a pamphlet on the Careerstart. I went over them last night and indicated what the criteria were and they're basically the same as last year, but as I indicated the one main difference is that we had to accommodate more applications from the Winnipeg area. In terms of priorizing of the jobs, we asked the em ployers to do that.

They tell us what their number one priority is, their number two and number three. We approve it on that basis and as I said it's approved in the field. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Maybe the Minister answered this as well yesterday, and I apologize if it is a re petitious question, but when the applications were received were they dealt with on a first-come, first-served basis or not? HON. L. EVANS: All the applications were in by March 26th and then the staff reviewed them. As I said, they were priorized by the employers and we in turn priorized them.

I gave one example in terms of the criteria and this is referred to in the pamphlet, and that is we would give some priority to the disadvantaged. For in stance, if one em ployer had a physically ha ndicapped person in a wheelchair, let us say, as opposed to another employer, everything else remaining equal, we'd like to give the handicapped person the chance, so there was that kind of priorizatlon by the staff. Generally speaking, the criteria were the same as last year. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: The reason I expressed some concern is because I've had a lot of calls from people who obviously made application and have been refused. Just an example, in the home community where I live, in the Village of Grunthal, four different organizations and people made applications and all were refused. They haven't got anybody working in the community and this is why I asked you exactly what were the criteria or how was this ha ndled?

The applications, basically the four different on es, one dealt with a sports association, a non-profit organization; the other one was the UBD ; one was a private individual; another 1104

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 one was a business, and all four applications for the jobs that were applied, everybody was refused in the commun ity. I have a few cases like that and this is why I raised the question of how was the qualification established to some degree? HON. l. EVANS: We allocate about a third of the spending to non-profit organizations and two-thirds to business and commercial organizations including farm operations. The reason for that preference of course is that on the commercial side the businesses are required to pay $2.00 at least towards the cost.

The non-profit, we pay the whole $4.00, the whole minimum wage plus 10 percent for employee benefits. Other than that, the criteria are basically the same. As I indicated, we had to spread the money out more and we zeroed in on where the heaviest unemployment was and that's what the statistical surveys show us. We think it makes sense to zero in where the heaviest concentration of unemplo yment is. Having said that, although Winnipeg has 60 percent of the population, it's still not getting anywhere near 60 percent of the mone y. it's far less than that. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: One of the concerns is that when they get their rejection it says basically, because of the lack of funding they do not qual ify. The question I ask is, what do we have to do to qualify? In other years, for example as I say, within my commun ity, with all four applications being rejected, they ask what do we have to do to get somebody? Just the fact that there isn't enough funds, then the question has to be asked, well where has the funding gone or where have the jobs gone.

The impression in my constituenc y, for example, is that the money must have gone to other areas, certainly not within the rural area. HON. L. EVANS: Well, as I indicated, Mr. Chairman, there has been an increase in the City of Winnipeg, because last year I believe, if my memory serves me correct, it received 27 percent of the funds even though it has 60 percent of the population. As I said, it is not anywhere near receiving 60 percent of the total funds. I would say that in your own riding, for instance, in that area, you're still getting higher than average per capita amount of assistance.

You are getting a disproportiona te amount in the Emerson-southea stern area of the province. So if you ask, where did the money go or where has the money gone, essentially there is more money being spent in the City of Winnipeg. it's as simple as that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Min ister a few questions. How much money did you spend on advertising on the Careerstart Program? MR. CHAIRMAN: That question has been answered before. MR. W. McKENZIE: Okay, thank you.

Can I ask the Minister, what are the funds available at your disposal this year for Careerstart, and how much did you have last year? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we just answered that question as well. MR. W. McKENZIE: Okay. I'm concerned, because the Minister said it's the same as last year, Mr. Chairman, and it is not the same as last year. Roblin alone had 60 applications accepted last year; this year, there are only 32. The Town of Russell has been turned down. The Town of Roblin has been turned down. I have sent five or six to the Minis ter in the last two weeks or so. They've all been turned down.

All these people are exposed to that highly sophisticated advertising program and these brochures, and they all feel that they should qualify. I'm wondering, what kind of response is the Minister providing to these constituents who are keenly interested, who file their applications. and then now have all been turned down? HON. l. EVANS: As I was indicating last night, we have had to use certain criteria for priorization. For instance, if an employer this year was given some federal money, Canada Summer Works money, well we felt we should give it to the employer who has no money from the Federal Government.

If an employer had been getting, last winter, money from our department under the Manitoba Employment Program and another empl oyer didn't get any assistance last winter, we felt that we should give it to the one who didn't get any assistance before. If an employer had a handicapped person, everything else being equal, and another employer didn't have a handicapped person, we would be inclined to favour the employer who is going to give somebody in a wheelchair a chance. So those kinds of considerations were taken into account.

But generally speaking, the staff have done an excellent job in spreading the money as widely as possible. As I have ind icated earlier this after noon, the applications far exceeded the amount of revenue we have. We are going to be spending considerably, and I've given those figures out, considerably more this year than we spent last year, we've indicated that; and we have also indicated that the total expenditure on advertising is .005 percent of the budget. I think that comes to something like 1/ 200 of 1 percent. it's a very minor amount of the total spending.

So generally, the answer to your question is the answer I gave the Member for Emerson and that is, we felt it was wise to concentrate on areas of highest unemployment. Let me make another - because I guess I'm now repeating myself - Winnipeg has the highest concentration of unemployment, and we happen to have a lot of young people, a high percentage of young people in the City of Winnipeg as well. But I want to make this point. There are other efforts to create jobs for young people and not so young people. We will be anno uncing later this year new programs or revisions of previous programs.

Last year, we had the Manitoba Employment Action Program. There will be a modification of that announced for later in the year. Also we talked about the STEP Program, that created over 800 jobs. We have some other announcements we'll be making once we finalize the details that will involve opportunities for young people. I hope people in the Roblin area will have an opportunity to get some assistance that way. 11 05

Wedneeday, 23 May, 1984 But the decisions were made in the field, and the managers had an allocation and they had to do their best within those allocations. If I could have double the amount of money - I'm laughing because it's a large amount of money - if I could have, say, 16 million instead of 8 million, we wouldn't have said no to anybody, I suppose. I'm not sure. If I had a lot more money we would have been able to accommodate everybody and more. But we are spending more money this year.

We'll have more people employed, but we have had to say no to some people, and we've had to say one or two instead of three, to some others. MR. W. McKENZIE: I hope the Minister will try and explain to me where he and the government went wrong on this program, because I think if he checks his records he'll find there were few if any concerns or letters expressing anxiety from the area last year, but this year there are all kinds of people who are really uptight. Did you over-advertise? Did you make promises that you can't fulfill, or where did it go wrong because I didn't have any concerns to speak of last year?

And I'm sure the Min ister can check the files. But I've sure got them this year, and he's got a bunch of the samples on his desk that I wrote to him and explained, that these are loyal, dedicated people and, all of a sudden, they're high and dry with a program that they thought was in place. Where did they go wrong? I would sure like to be able to tell them. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I don't think we went wrong. I reject that we went wrong . We are going in a direction so that we can more effectively address the unemplo yment of young people in Manitoba.

As I have said before, the greatest concentrat ion of unemp loyment is in the City of Winnipeg. The rate of unemployment is higher in the City of Winnipeg than it is for Manitoba as a whole and therefore, it seems to me th at it's rational and wis e to tackle the unemp loyment in the areas of greatest need. Having said that, I would tell the Honourable Member for Roblin that if the moneys you receive are strictly on a per capita or proportionate basis, there would be even less money spent in that particular area of the province. lt's still more than your population would justify. But we're looking at population.

We are looking at unem ployment levels. I think that's a matter of being fair and trying to be equitable. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, one final question, I wonder if the Min ister can tell me what he is writing back to these people that have been turned down. What kind of a letter, because one constituent phoned me today, and he laughed about the type of letter. He is going to send me a copy of it for tomorrow, I don't have it today. What kind of response are you giving to these applicants that have been turned down? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that it's a form letter - a rejection letter is a form letter that was used in previous years. lt's not from me, it's from the Regional Manager. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)( 3) - the Member for Minn edosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. In the Min ister's opening state ment, he mentio ned the Mani toba Employment Action Program. I wonder if he might describe that program to us. HON. l. EVANS: The Manitoba Employment Action Program is a program of wage subsidy available to people of all ages.

Generally we pay 50 percent of the employee's hourly wage up to a maximum of $4.00 per hour; that's both for the business and the farm sector. The employers are responsible for recruiting their own empl oyees and all employers are required to provide a minimum of 300 consecutive hours of employment. Employers in the non-pr ofit community organization sector will only be allowed to apply for a maximum of two positions; employers in the business farm sector can apply for a maximum of three positions. We're discouraging hiring of immedia te relatives, we are discouraging them but they are eligible to be hired.

The areas to be covered are essentially southern, rural Manitoba, Winnipeg, and eight larger communities in Northern Manitoba. We will have this year a special measures component to encourage the hiring of the disadvantaged people who are unemployed. The definition of unemp loyed is being expanded to include 15 hours per week or less. Generally speaking it is a wage subsidy program and we're hoping that it will be able to get launched this fall. MR. D. BLAKE: To the Minister. I unde rstand they're hoping to have it launched this fall, so it's not in place yet, there's been no take-ups under that program to date.

HON. l. EVANS: Oh, I'm sorry I didn't hear the question, I'm sorry. MR. D. BLAKE: I take if from your remarks that you said you hoped that it will be launched this fall. lt's not in place now? HON. L. EVANS: That is correct. I have to make a correction. We've had two years of the Manitoba Emplo yment Action Program,'82-83,'83-84, and that is now concluded, the'83-84 is now concluded. The'84- 85 will be starting up sometime this fall. The descri ption I gave you was of last year's program'83-84. There may be some minor modifications for'84-85, but essent ially it remains a wage subsidy prog ram.

We are considering another component involving training as well, but when that's determined we will make that information available. MR. D. BLAKE: I wonder if the Minister could tell us what take-up there was on the program in the past year. How many people involved? How many jobs created? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, last year we received 2,4 17 applications. Of that number we approved 1, 789. Then there was some subsequently cancelled, so finally we dealt with 1, 589 applications which covered 1, 863 positions or jobs. lt in volved an expen ditur e of $5, 1 55,000.00. 1106

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 MR. D. BLAKE: For 1, 589 jobs. HON. L. EVANS: I'm sorry, for 1, 863 jobs. MR. D. BLAKE: Well, I'm confused now. You had 2,417 applications. There was 1,7 89 approved which boiled down to 1,5 89 final? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, after it was cancelled. MR. D. BLAKE: Then you say that you've employed 1, 600 or so. HON. L. EVANS: I'm sorry, those were the applications, 1, 589. Finally the bottom line is 1,5 89 in applications, but those applications were equivalent to 1, 863 jobs. MR. D. BLAKE: Some were for two positions. HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MR. D. BLAKE: So 1, 863 jobs cost us $5, 155,000.00.

HON. l. EVANS: Yes. MR. D. BLAKE: What duration? Was that for the full year? HON. L. EVANS: No, it varied but the maximum was 20 weeks under that program. The total num ber of work weeks - I can give you that number if you like - is 35,923 work weeks. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, that confuses me when we get into work weeks and staff man hours and . . . HON. L. EVANS: Well, if you divide it by 52 you get work years. MR. D. BLAKE: I don't have my computer with me. That sounds like a pretty heavy program for 1, 800 jobs, $5 million. What does that work out to per job quickly Mr. Scott with your applicator there? HON. L.

EVANS: I think that averages $2,767 per person. MR. D. BLAKE: For four months, five months work? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, as I was ind icating, in last years program,' 83-84 we paid $2.00 per hour in the business sector, and the em ployer could pay $2.00 or indeed more than that if he so wished. So the private employer is putting in an amount at least equivalent to this, if not even more. MR. D. BLAKE: I guess there would be quite a number of cases here, Mr. Chairman, where this would qualify them for the number of weeks required to put them on unemplo yment insur ance and then the feds pick it up. HON. L. EVANS: Yes.

MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to ind icate to the Mini ster that a number of Careerstart applications in my area have been refused this year. Some of these people had been participating in the program under various names for various years. I just want to indicate to the Minister, and he's received some correspondence from these people, that as a result there will be students who don't receive work this summer because of the failure of that business and organization to qualify for Careerstart funding this year.

Now the Min ister and the government from time to time have attempted to make quite grandiose claims about the success of the program, and indicate that it is working quite well. But unfortuna tely the proof is not in the pudding because it is not working for many people in my area and other areas that have been mentioned already. I would like to ask the Min ister if he can provide us with information as to the areas in which employers who have received approval to hire under Careerstart are located? Where are the employers that are hiring students under Careerstart? HON. L.

EVANS: First of all, this is a subject we have been discussing with four or five of your colleagues last night and tonight, the same . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: These have been discussed to death already. MR. D. OR CHARD: Mr. Chairman, I suggest the students are wanting it to be discussed to death. HON. L. EVANS: That's fine. I'll just repeat. Mr. Chairman, last year, we spent on this program slightly over $7 million. I haven't got the figure in front of me, $7.2 million. This year, we anticipate spending well over $8 million. So there is going to be a lot more spent this year.

I would like to remind the honourable member the last year, I believe, of their administration for this comparable program, their expenditure was something in the order of $3.5 million. So this year we're spending nearly three times the amount that he made available for students in 1981 and I daresay inflation hasn't tripled in that time. So there is no question that we've got more money available for more jobs than ever before.

But the fact is that - and I've indicated this previously - we've had to priorize even though we're spending more money this year, we observed in our records that in past years the City of Winnipeg, which has 60 percent of the population, received between 25 and 30 percent of the funding. Now this is a provincial-wide program, it is not just a rural program. There are some programs that are strictly rural.

There are some programs that are strictly northern, but this is a province-wide program eligible to businesses and non-profit organizations in the City of Winnipeg as well as in Pembina riding or any other part of Manitoba. In asmuch as Winnip eg has 60 percent of the population and inasmuch as the rate of unemployment is higher in the City of Winnipeg than it is for Manitoba as a whole, we have an excessive concentration of 110 7

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 unemp loyed students and other young people in the City of Winnipeg and it makes sense to put the money a bit more where the concentration of unemployment is. So even though it has 60 percent of the population, it still will not receive 60 percent of the money. lt will be receiving more than last year. I think last year it was about 27 percent. So this is the fact.

Even though we're going to be spending roughly a million dollars more this year, the fact is that we felt that it was important to zero in on the concentration of unemp loyed youth and you can only do that by spreading the money around a little more broadly. As I have indicated to the members previously, if an emplo yer has had an indication from the Federal Government of getting Summer Works money, we feel that we should give it to that employer who doesn't have any such assistance.

If one employer had three positions last year, he may have had to do with one or two this year so we could give money for his colleague down the street, an opportunity to hire some body. So generally speaking, that is the essence of what is happening this past year. I think I've said it about seven times in the last two days. MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't like the proceedings of this committee to be ·like a broken record. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, maybe you might let the conversation go on, it won't be a broken record. Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister since he indicates the statistic of some 27 percent last year for the City of Winnipeg, what does he exp ect tha t percentage to be this year? HON. L. EVANS: Well this is preliminary, probably about 42 percent, approxima tely. MR. D. ORCHARD: Does th e Min ister have a breakdown for the rest of the province to indicate what percentage would be going into Northern Manitoba, for instance, compared to last year? HON. L. EV ANS: We have some numbers. We'll have to do some percentage calculations, I guess. This year in Northern Manitoba, we've app roved approximately $625,000.00.

Yes, roughl y $625,000 In No rthern Manitoba. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister have a comparable figure for last year? HON. L. EVANS: Just a moment. I have to revise that figure for the North, that was a week old. it's revised every week, I guess. The figure this year for the North is $729,000 approved, which is down from last year. Last year it was a shade over $1 million. MR. D. ORCHARD: Since this has gone up 100,000 a week, would it be fair to assume that by the end of the month it will be approaching that million dollars, or are approval of applications finished? HON. L.

EVANS: I don't expect it to go up to any exte nt. There may be some mi nor revisions. The appl ications are in and th e appr oval process is essentially finished. MR. D. ORCHARD: lt would appear as if the City of Winnipeg, if I have followed the Minister's figures correctly, will receive approximately 15 percent more of the Budget this year than last year. Could the Minister indicate from what general area of the province - and it appears as if the North may have dropped by a couple of hundred thousand dollars - would rural Manitoba pick up the balance, or is the City of Brandon down as well? HON. L.

EVANS: In this Table I have figures by region and I' m advised by my Deputy that there is a bit of a problem because the regional boundaries are different between two years; there is some adjustment there, so it's not pertectly accurate. But all of the rural areas would have had less money if you're going to put more money into Winnipeg. Even though the total amount of money is up, the North and other parts of rural Manitoba have had less money. MR. D. ORCHARD: Could the Minister make available to members of the committee, that regional breakdown this year versus last year? HON. L.

EV ANS: I could give you the information, Mr. Chairman. Do you want me to give you the Estimates now? MR. D. ORCHARD: That would be fine. MR. L. EVANS: I could round this off to the nearest 100,000 or nearest thousand if you like. Do you want dollars or do you want jobs? MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, to understand the program, to make sure that we're talking about the same thing, the level of subsidy is the same this year as last year, so $1,000 last year would create the same number of jobs as this year? HON. L. EVANS: Excuse me, I'm sorry. I wonder If the Member for Pembina would repeat that. MR. D.

ORCHARD: You indicated what values we wanted you to give the answer in. Jobs, of course, would be the most explicit, but if dollars are only available and the subsidy rate of $2.00 per hour has not changed this year from last year, a reasonably accurate calculation, I assume, could be made of dollar values only were available, but jobs would be the ideal if the Minister could provide those figu res. HON. L. EYANS: Well, my Deputy was just pointing out again that there are some changes in the regional boundaries for various admi nistrative reasons which I won't go into.

So in comparing Westman North, we don't have anything to compare it with. That was com bined wit h Westman Sout h. Westman is spli t between South and North - I'm not sure why - most other areas are combined as Westman Region. Then I think there's some change in connection with South Central. 11 08

Wednesday, 23 May , 1984 Because these are still not final, I'm wondering if I could provide a table to the opposition, to the official critic and the Member for Pembina, giving the number of jobs, the nu mb er of weeks, the numb er of applications and the dollars, give you a complete table for the entire province by region on a consistent basis. This is not consistent and it's misleading. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, just let me clarify what the Minister has offered here.

Is that going to be a table of where they estimate to have the money spent or is this going to be actual figures which would take several weeks, presumab ly, to make available? HON. L. EVANS: Hopefully, next week sometime we could make this available. This will be approvals. There's always a certain amount of drop-off during the year, but it'll give you a fair idea of the distribution. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, that would be fine. Now the Minister has indicated that there is a shift from rural Manitoba to the City of Winnipeg involving some 15 percent of the program funding.

I assume - or maybe I shouldn't assume - did the Minister make a policy decision to undertake that shift? HON. L. EVANS: lt was a decision taken by the government, involving myself as a Minister. As I said, it's a policy based on the unemplo yment problem that we have in the Province of Manitoba. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then in developing that policy which would indicate a shift to the City of Winnipeg, can the Minister indicate whether there were any other areas, i.e. Brandon, for which it was a policy decision to shift additional funds this year compared to last year?

If that was the case, what regions and what areas are involved in getting more money? HON. L. EV ANS: The policy decision was only with regard to the City of Winnipeg and therefore all the other areas were reallocated based on their population. MR. D. ORCHARD: Just one final area if the Minister could - he indicates that traditionally 25 percent, 27 percent, 30 percent of the money was allocated to the City of Winnipeg. MR. L. EVANS: Last year was 27 percent, so I imagine it was in that ball park. MR. D. ORCHARD: That would seem to bring up the que stion as to why.

Were there fewer applications from the City of Winnipeg than from the rest of Manitoba, so that they were allocated only 27 percent of the funds? Were they late in their application and the money was allocated on a first-come, first-served basis? Why was the City of Winnipeg receiving less money? HON. L. EV ANS: First of all, in every year you don't approve all the applications, but there tended to be less awareness on the part of the business commun ity, I think, in the past years. There's certainly no shortage of non-profit organizations take-up.

They can take up the whole budget if you approved every non-profit group in the City of Winnipeg. But the point is that we would only all ocate a certain amount. I've suggested a one third amount for non-profit because we pay the entire wage bill,

whereas on the business side we pay only half the wage bill. We don't have any field staff in the City of Winnipeg. Rural areas have field staff. We have various offices, as we indicated last night, around Manitoba and I guess the business community has been a bit more aware of it because of the field staff functions. MR. D. ORCHARD: One last question. With less money going to rural Manitoba, are there fewer field staff in rural Manitoba? HON. L. EVANS: There is a reduction of one. The field staff, however, are engaged in many programs. This is only one.

In the winter time we will have several other programs un der way. We have one or two other programs under way now, but there will be other programs this coming fall. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Mr. Chairman, leaving Careerstart for the time being anyway, does the NEED Program fall under this heading? HON. L. EV ANS: I believe it's under another line, Mr. Chairman. That's under Page 61 (d), Federal-Provincial Programs Co-ordination. MRS. C. OLESON: Okay, well I'll ask my questions on that in that area then. What about that program to do with the engineering and science graduates?

Does it fall in this line? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Minister then indicate how many students received help under this program and what was the funding? HON. L. EV ANS: This program is still under way. There are 77 gradua tes in the program. MRS. C. OLESON: When you say it's still under way, are you indicating it's the same students involved this year as last year, that this is an ongoing program with the same people? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, it's a one-year program.

The employer must take that student for a whole year and many of these students didn't get started until late last year or early this year. MRS. C. OLESON: What is the funding for that? HON. L. EV ANS: it's a $1 million allocation, but it's available for expenditure in both fiscal years. MRS. C. OLESON: The Senior Citizens' Job Bureau - is that something that's under this Minister? Is it in this line? HON. L. EV ANS: We used to provide a grant to the seniors' organization for that function, but they withdrew 11 09

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 their application because they have quite a bit of federal money, I understand. MRS. C. OLESON: So that's no longer a provincially funded organization. HON. L. EVANS: There may be some money from the Department of Health because the Minister of Health is undertaking to be the focal point for all programs for senior citizens. There's funding of the various drop in centres, such as the Brandon Civic Senior Citizens Incorporated. That is funded by the Department of Health; also the Age and Opportuni ty Bureau is funded by the Department of Health, but they're not job oriented.

They're considered to be part and parcel of good sociability, leading to better health I suppose. MRS. C. OLESON: In the' 83-84 Estimates, there is reference to a Community Unemplo yment Counselling Centre. Is this something that this Minister has in his department? HON. L. EVANS: I'm advised that it stayed in the Department of Labour. MRS. C. OLESON: lt stayed in the Department of Labour. Then if we could move on to (4) ... MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (b )(3)- pass. Ther e are no appropriations in these two other lines. I will not call them. 3.(c)(1), 3.(c)

(2) Immigr ation and Settlement Services: Salaries and Other Expenditur es - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Jus t a moment. In No rthern Development Agreement . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no money involved. MRS. C. OLESON: Well just bcause there is no money doesn 't say you can't talk about it. MR. CHAIRMAN: We don't pass it though. We can discuss it. MRS. C. OLESON: Maybe the Minister would explain the program of why there is no money. Who is travelling and why? How come it isn't costing us anything? HON. L.

EVANS: That program was essent ially one for, I believe, Northern Manitoba. lt was funded under a cost-shared arrangement with the Federal Go vernment under th e Northern Deve lopment Agreement. However, we determined this year that we would cancel it, partly as a part of our fiscal restraint. I am not suggesting we wouldn't have it in future years, but this year it was decided to not proceed. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (c)(1) , 3.(c)

(2) Im mig ration and Settlement Services: Salaries, Other Expenditu res - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Minister tell us what programs fall under this department. I have a listing here that I got from the Labour and Manpower Annual Report of 1982 which, of course, may not be up-to date, and the Labour Annual Report isn't available yet. I wonder, could the Minister indicate what programs fall under this department. HON. L. EVANS: There are various programs. I could maybe refer to it in terms of the division of this branch.

We have a program in Demographic Analysis Unit which analyzes the level and composition of immigration to Manitoba, including refugees, and examines Manitoba's ability to absorb newcomers into our labour market and the impact on health and social services. There is another unit called the Newcomers Services Unit whereby we work with newcomers to help them obtain employment opportunities if they need that help. We also provide certain information to them about provincial health programs and other matters pertaining to their settlement in the province. Then, of course, there is a research and planning group.

Generally, it provides assistance to new people, newcomers. We have had some discussions with various cultural and ethnic groups in Manitoba and they are pressuring us, if you will, or requesting the Manitoba Government to become involved in providing more specialized services for immigrants such as mental health assistance and so on. This is something we are looking into. They are particularly concerned about English as a second language. We spend quite a bit of money helping groups, such as, the West man Multicultural Council that sponsors English as a Second Language.

Of course, this goes on in the City of Winnipeg as well. MRS. C. OLESON: The English as a Second Language Program, was it taken out of the Education Department, or does this department monitor it and fund it and the Education Department delivers it? Is tha t a fair assessment? HON. L. EVANS: The Department of Education does most of the training. We provide a bit of seed money to some organizations, and there is a joint committee between Education and our department. MRS. C. OLESON: The Minister mentioned mental health problems with immigrants.

There was reference in that report I mentioned on a Steering Committee for Refugee Mental Health. Is that committee still active, or has it reported and are the recommendations being adopted? HON. L. EV ANS: Mr. Chairman, I haven't seen the report myself, but the department now has received a report and we'll be holding some discussions again with some of the organizations and groups of people affected by it. MRS. C. OLESON: Will that report be tabled? HON. L. EV ANS: We hadn't considered that. I think that it could be made available eventual ly, but I don't know.

I think we were going to discuss it with particular groups of individuals that are imme diately affected. There are various newcomer organizations, recent 111 0

Wednesday, 23 May , 1984 immigrant groups in Winnipeg who are particularly concerned about it and they would like to see some action. lt all doesn't have to occur, of course, in the Department of Health; it could be the Department of Community Services through Child and Family Services. In addition, there is another overall report on mental health, that's the Pascoe Report. But this is another one that you're asking about which deals specifically with Southe ast Asian refugees. There's a matter of trying to reconcile their recommendations with that of the Pascoe Report.

I don't think there is any problem in making it public, except I would have to dou ble-check to see to what extent there are references to individual problem cases and that. MRS. C. OLESON: Also, in that publ ication, there was reference to an education committee of the Refugee Workers Training Program. HON. L. EVANS: Just following up on that point, there is a training program now under the Core Area Initiatives Program. They have some money, and I understand there has been an allocation for that type of activity. MRS. C. OLESON: That would just be beneficial though to people in the core area of Winnipeg? · HON.

L. EVANS: Yes, I believe that is where the concentration is. There are 18 people being trained present ly. MRS. C. OLESON: In the Order-in-Council of May 16th, No. 582, there was an allocation of $25,000 to the Newcomer Services Sup port Program Project. Could the Minister elaborate on that allocation of funds? HON. L. EVANS: Is that 25,000, did you say? That's an overall amount that will be made available and we expect to get applications in and that will be distributed to the organizations that apply.

Last year, I can ind icate the organizations who received help: The Westman Multicultural Council; the Knox Day Nu rsery, they have a guide for facilitating integration in day care; International Geographical Union had a refugee migration symposium; Teaching English as a Second Language in Manitoba, there was some money for materials and development of the course; ILGWU, International Ladies Garment Workers Union, community group development. There were several others. Teaching English as a Second Language, another three in various areas involving different people, different workshops and training symposiums.

There is one to the National Association of Canadians of Origin in India for some workshops that they had. There was some money for the In ternational Centre for an immigr ant services review. There were 10 projects in all and I don't think we have processed the applications this year yet. MRS. C. OLESON: You mentioned the International Cent re. Does this department help fund tha t organization? HON. L. EVANS: We don't give bulk or block funding or whatever it's called. What we pay for is some money for a particular program to assist immigrants, but we don't give it block funding.

That's covered, I think, by some federal money. I'm sorry - federally it's under the Department of the Secretary of State, but I believe our Department of Cultural Affairs gi ves them some assistance as well. MRS. C. OLESON: I think that's all I have on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Department of Em ployment Services and Economic Security, are they now responsible for the allowing of immigrant workers into the agricultural community in Portage? Is this the area in which this should be debated? I tried to debate it last night under the general

preamble but I guess this is where we would want to do it now. HON. L. EV ANS: I und erstand that the Department of Agriculture is primarily involved. That's where the action is. We play a role in terms of ensuring that offshore recruitment of temporary farmer workers is consistent with our provincial policy, that recruitment of offshore labour do es not have a negative effect on job opportunity for Manitoba residents. All parties in this arrangement would agree that the process has had and continues to have a positive effect on our labour force.

So, generally, we are looking at the stability and working conditions for resident workers in the Portage la Prairie area. But in terms of immigration, obviously the Federal Government has to be involved and certainly, since 1975, it's also involved the Manitoba Farm Workers Association and the individual vegetable growers as well as our own provincial Department of Agriculture. 1111 I believe the member asked about the number of workers coming from Mexico. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, the question is: What is the num ber of emplo yees coming in now to Manitoba from offshore or out of country to work within the vegetable indus try now compared to last year? HON. L. EVANS: These are workers in the Portage area working in the vegetable indust ry. Last year there were four employers who requested 33 workers and they obtained 31 workers; 31 arrived. This year, 1984, the same number of employers, four employers; they requested 29 workers and we expect 29 workers will arrive later this year. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I am pleased to hear the Minister say that there is support from all areas and all departments in this particular area because of the fact that in his prior administration, prior to us getting into office, they'd totally elim inated all workers from coming in and allowed the vegetables to rot in the fields and prohibited the Portage vegetable farmers from employing people. We reversed that policy and I am now glad to see that the local workers are integrating in with the offshore workers and that it is supplying a needed group of people.

Apparent ly, from the sound of things, this year's requirements will be met.

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 There is another area of concern that I have. I would ask the Min ister what involvement and what propositions, or what support has he put forward to the Federal Department of either Labour or Immigration, or whoever is reponsible for it, to support the custom combiners out of Manitoba that are desirous of going down into the United States to play a role in what has been traditionally a pretty important part of keeping their payments up and making a livelihood. What has he personally done, or his department, to encourage the use of Manitoba combiners in the United States? HON. L.

EVANS: We are not involved in that area at all. lt's strictly handled by the Department of Agriculture. MR. J. DOWNEY: I would have thought, Mr. Chairman, that the Min ister of Employment Services and Economic Security would have at least shown some interest in view of the fact they are responsible for the allowing of people into the Province of Manitoba to work and are involved in the harvesting and the working in the vegetable fields, that he would have at least shown an interest in support of the people from this province wanting to move into the Un ited Sta tes to find employment for their machines.

I am disappointed that he is just really sloughing it off, saying that it's up to the Department of Agriculture, ho hum type thing. There are a lot of people with a lot of investment, it's been a traditional activity, and I am extremely disappointed the the Min ister hasn't seen fit to at least enquire into it and to see what he could do to support Manitoba custom combiners. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I think the more custom combiners we can have working south of the border, the better. it's like exporting our services, our talents, and it does bring money into Manitoba.

So the more we have of that, the better and I, personally, am very supportive of that type of activity. I am simply saying, however, thus far at least, the jurisdiction and the lead for this has not been in this department. it's been left with the Department of Agriculture and I am advised they are pushing pretty hard on that. That's what I am being told anyway, and I certainly give the Minister of Agriculture any support he would ask of me. Thus far, I believe the Department of Agriculture feels that that is their bailiwick and I am sure they are doing their best.

I hope they are handling it well but, thus far, we have not had any jurisdiction in that area. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I stand to be corrected, but I don't believe anyone, either the federal or the US level have had any contact from either the Government of Manitoba or any of the Min isters, Agriculture or this current government. I am extremely surprised that somebody wouldn't have picked up the ball, and I again want the Min ister of Economic Security and Employment Services to put every effort forward.

I know he has indi cated that the Department of Agriculture should be carrying it, I would say that jointly, particularly Employment Services, if he is concerned about the employment of people from Manitoba in carrying on this kind of activity should have become actively involved. I would hope that he would, from here on in, play a little more active role in all departments of his res ponsibil ity, not shun off that respo nsibili ty to someone else who is not looking after it. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(cX 1) , 3.(cX2)-pass. 3(dX1) Federal-Provincial Programs Co-ordination, Salaries; 3.(dX2) Other Expenditur es; 3.(dX3Xa) Selkirk Training Plant, Salaries. The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, just a moment. You seem to be looking at your book all the time. I would like to make a few comments. Mr. Chairman, dealing with the Federal-Provincial Program and particularly the Selkirk Training Plant . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: I have not finished calling the item yet. I'm just naming the item instead of just naming the letter. MR. J. DOWNEY: I see, I apologize, Mr. Chairman, for interrupting. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(dX 1) - I'll repeat - 3.(dX 1) Federal Provincial Programs Co-ordination: Salaries; 3.(dX2) Other Expenditures; 3.(dX3Xa) Salaries, Selkirk Training Plant; 3.(dX3Xb) Other Expenditures; 3.(dX3Xc) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations. The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have a few questions on the Selkirk Training Plant. However, I'll yield to the Member for Gladstone at this particular point. I'll be back. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. lt was indicated before that the NEED Program falls under this line.

I wonder could the Minister indicate the number of jobs through this program for this year and for last year and the level of funding. HON. L. EVANS: To date, a total of 2,635 jobs entailing 54,483 work weeks of employment have been created on 156 approved projects. The provincial approvals have totalled in excess of $1 1. 8 million. As the member realizes, it's a joint Federal-Provincial Program. I believe the total program Estimate was $24 million, $12 million from each level of government. As I said, we've approved just a shade under that $12 million, so all approvals have occurred.

The program will operate until June 30th of this year. That is the cut-off time. There are a few projects around that will not be completed by then, at least in terms of the utilization of this money. We're hoping to get special dispens ation from Ottawa for an extension for some of the projects in Manitoba beyond June 30th, hopefully, to September 30th. MRS. C. OLESON: What type of jobs does this include? HON. L. EVANS: This is aimed at creating employment opportunities for those who have exhausted their 111 2

Wednesday, 23 May, 1984 Unem ployment In su rance benefits. Our funds are designated for project wages and where applicable, for assistance to emp loyers with the project wages of individuals recalled from a formal recall system of laid off emplo yees. The federal funds are available for both wages and other costs such as employer contributions, material and equipment.

I don't have a list of projects, but I could give you some examples: Town of Carman, Boyne River clean-up; the Town of Morden there was an upgrading of the sidewalk system; Morden District Hospital, renovat ions, additions; Kinsmen Club of Morden, construction of a new day care; Mennonite Village Museum; St.

Pierre Curling Club - it can go around the province - the Gladstone Arena Commit tee, construction of storage building, install ice plant pipes and flooring, that was $1 5,480, that's in addition to that Energy Demonstration Project, I believe that was a separate thing - Teulon United Church, renovations to the church; the Royal Manitoba Yacht Club - I'm just picking some at random to give you an idea - Gimli ·H arbour Park dev elop ment; Klinic In corporated; Pembina Woods Housing Corporation.

Oh yes, here's something that's dear to the member's heart, I know, the Manitoba Agricultural Museum for construction of two buildings to house articles for the museum, received a total under this program of $20,782 for that work. In addition to that, the Gladstone Arena Commit tee - I guess I mentioned that - $1 5,480.00. (Interjection) - Well, we'll take a look, I think that maybe it depends on the organizations that have applied. There may be, who knows? Okay, South western Manitoba, Onanole, Brandon, Shilo, Neepawa, Boissevain, Minnedosa - those are the communities that have been involved. MRS. C.

OLESON: Then these jobs are all short-term, they're not intended to be a long-term job, they're a fill-in for people who can no longer get Unemployment Insurance? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, these are essentially construction jobs and they're for people, as I said, who are UIC exhaus tees. That was at least the federal thrust. MRS. C. OLESON: Interim help. HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I notice the funding for the Selkirk Training Plant and the associated expenses are down from last year.

Is that still providing the same level of training by reducing the funds, or what is the reason for the reduction ther e, Mr. Chairman? HON. L. EV ANS: There's no reduction in the level of activi ty, but ther e was a tra nsfer of $58, 800 for maintenance, etc., to the Department of Government Services, and a $1 4,600 provision for provincial sales tax allotted to'83-84 but wasn 't budge ted in'84-85. So, it's really a bookkeeping change. The level of activity is essentially the same. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, the plant out there, as I und erstand it, the objective is to bring and has been so since its inception under the years of George Hu tton and the ARDA Program, where it was established and the objective was to bring particularly people out of the North, probably Natives, to bring them in and give them a little more of a training and woodworking and that type of work and then move into the steady emplo yment in furniture busine sses and wherever there were related indus tries. What numb ers of peo

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-3-27
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 3rd hansardpdf 27.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b77492742237d8b233080abeeb3f48e63f213e4a

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