LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 23 June, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: The commi ttee will come to order. We are on Page 33, dealing with item 3.(c), Resolution 31, Manitoba Developmental Centre. The Minister of Commun ity Services. HON. M. SMITH: Just a brief statement. I understand that just before we adjourned, I inadvertently referred to residents as inmates. I apologize very thoroughly for that. lt's not my mode of thinking and I do regret having made that slip. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Mr.

Chairman, prior to the supper hour, there had been some discussion on the Welcome Home Program. I want to preface my remarks by saying that I am a father of an autistic son, so I have some experience in dealing with the handicapped. I want to compliment the Minister on the initiative that she has taken in the Welcome Home Program. There was some discussion prior to breaking for Private Members' Hour that the Portage Home was a great institution, that it was providing a needed service, but I think that you have to look sometimes at the needs and services change.

I think that if we can come up with a better way of dealing with the handicapped, then we should be looking at that. I think the initiative that the Minister has come up with is a better way of dealing with it when they can come into the commun ity. lt isn't very often that the communit y gets an opportunity to have an institution of this sort, or not an institution, but a home in their communit y. I know there is an example in The Pas where there was a children's home being set up there.

There was a real resistance to it coming into the communi ty, but once it was established, there was great support from all the service clubs in the commu nity and the commun ity itself. There's a sense of pride in the community now that th ey are helping these underprivileged citizens of ours adjust, as close as they can, to normal living.

I guess I've had some experience with volunteering with people who have come out of institutions, and I think there is a time when they're afraid and they have fears of going out into societ y, but I think that's where we, as fellow huma n beings, have a responsibility to support them. They can adjust and become more comfortable with living in society. I have seen examples of it happening where, when given an opportunity, they become comfortable and they can adjust and lead somewhere near a normal life.

You can point to recent examples of where the Welcome Home Program has worked successfu lly, so I think that you should be encoura ged rather than condemned for taking the initiative in this Welco me Home Program. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The Minister wants to respond to a question asked earlier by the Member for Portage, and then the Member for Portage can continue. The Minister of Communit y Services. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, first I'd like to give the staff breakdown. There were questions about the staff and the programming.

In the medical/nursing area: 6 medical, 380 nursing, 3 pharm acy, 7 physiotherap y, 3 nursing education. In the program area: 12 psychologists, 7 social services, 15 vocational training, 8 in the teaching area, 6 in recreation, 1 in pastoral care, 4 in speech and communication. In the support and admin istration: 7 on clinical records, 15 on admin. services, 50 on dietary, 40 on housekeeping, 30 on laundry and linen, 5 in personnel, 4 on staff training and development, 8 on mobile service, 1 on volunteer services, 3 on stores, 1 on fire safety and securi ty.

That makes a total of 618, plus 1 contract person and 47 contingency or term. The contingency and term are divided into 32.5 for medical/nursing, 0.5 for program and 14 for support/administration. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERY: Is there a copy of that for us? There's no way we can write that down at that speed and we can't memorize it. Are there no copiers around that we could . . . HON. M. SMITH: lt will be available tomorrow. There's more material here perhaps than what you have asked for. MR. E. CONNERY: Mr. Chairman, I object.

You know we asked for informatio n to be available to this committ ee so that we could study the Estimates and make an adequate comment ary on the Estimates. The material is there; all we need is to have it copied. When the Minister had it, why can't the members here have it? When we're in a line of questioning, it's important to have that material. MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps I can clarify for the mem ber. Under the rules, there is no requirement for the Minister to respond at all.

I think the fact is, if you wish, I would think, with the agreement of members, we can defer this item until the material is available and go on to other items. But just to make it very clear, as in question period, there is no obligation on the Minister to respond. The Minister has volunteered the information and says she will have it tomorrow. If you wish to defer the item, we could consider that and if the comm ittee is in agreement, we will do that. 1169

Monday, 23 June, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: lt's got more information than he asked, but it's . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Ok ay. The Minister has just stated that she will get you copies of the information with the extraneous material, so if you want to go onto another subject while we're waiting for that. MR. E. CONNERY: Do we have the names of the senior admin istrators or the positions of the senior admin istrators and those who are available in Portage outside of the daytime hours, not necessarily the names but the head adminis trator and then in sequence, and who are available on short notice? HON. M.

SMITH: I'll give you the adminis trative man agement coverage pa ttern. The execut ive management consists of a CEO , the adminis tration, personnel programs and medical. They work Monday to Friday, 8:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. The central nursing office, which is staffed with Nurse 5 to Nurse 7 - there are levels of seniority, or at least experience and training, 7:00 a.m. till midnight, seven days a week. They handle emergencies and reque sts within their areas of com petence.

They retain a phone list of available staff to handle issues tha t could arise out side their jurisdiction, including the director of nursi ng, the assistant director of nursi ng, medical director or designate. They're all on call, along with all the others who could be called in, but they do have that list. From midnight to 7:00 a.m., each unit has a unit su pervisor on site, a psych nurse Level 5. Each supervisor has a phone list for decisions beyond the jurisdiction and, again, the phone num bers of assistant director of nursing, director of nursing and so on. MR. E.

CONNERY: Of the top three that you've listed, how long would it take them to be at the school in the case of a severe emergency? HON. M. SMITH: They're probably all within an hour. They could be in phone connection immedia tely. MR. E. CONNERY: I believe that answers my question, Mr. Chairman, that in the case of a severe emergency, the top admin istrators are some time removed. A phone call is one thing, but being on site to obs erve what is happening, I think is what is required; so the point is made that the top admin istrative staff are not available on very short notice to be at the site. HON. M.

SMITH: With respect, I said within an hour; there are some that are there in shorter order. I suspect the mem ber is getting at the question of do these people live in Portage. I think we dealt with that earlier, that if they or th eir designate are th ere to deal with emergencies, that where they live is their business. MR. E. CONNERY: Why was Portage singled out as the psych nursing school to close, instead of Brandon or Selkirk? HON. M. SMITH: I think I provided that answer in the earlier statement I made about it. Our department is not in the business of training staff for del ivery of program.

There was that one grouping where we were delivering the program, but it was in fact psych nursing in Manitoba as a generic training, with three special areas of expertise. lt's our belief that the consolidation of the training in the other two schools, and the communi ty colle ges and the universities are all deeply involved in the development of personnel, that was the best way to provide that particular type of training. I have pointed out to the member several times that some provinces have actually done away with the psych nursing speciali ty. There was some of that fear when this move was made.

We have assured the psych nursing groups that we expect them to continue to play a role in the differentiated pattern of health care del ivery services in Manitoba. We've also outlined for them what the likely future job areas were in the three areas of specializa tion or of work lo cations tha t they are prepared for. MR. E. CONNERY: Why is it that the gradua tes of Brandon and Selkirk are somewhat reluctant to work at the Portage MDC? HON. M. SMITH: The only experience in the past has been when there was training in each of the three centres and each ha d developed a degree of special ization.

With the consolidation we have been going through a revamping of the curriculum to include specialization or at least special theory and pla cement, sort of for everyone, plus some additional options for specialization at the MDC. We are not likely to see the results of recruiting for some time, but we do anticipate a slight surplus in site nurses until around 19 89. MR. E.

CONNERV: I think it's fairly well agreed amongst the nursing people that it is more difficult for people to work with the mentally retarded than it is with the mentally ill, that the without hands-on experience and work ing at the Manitoba School, getting their training there and getting a gradual acclimatization to the mentally retarded, this is where they've had it much easier and have fitted into the MDC much easier. Does the Minister not agree with that? HON. M.

SMITH: There's a range of opinions about how nurses should be trained, whether it should be in hospital sites or in col leges and then take their pract icum. In fact, in Manitoba, we've retained quite a lot of hospital base training and for this particula r group of nurses what we have done is built into their curriculum theory relating to all three disability groups and practicum pla cement in all three. MR. E. CONNERV: The students from Brandon and Selkirk will still have to come back to Portage for orientation. Wh ere will the students and the staff stay when they come to Portage? HON. M.

SMITH: The nurses' residence will continue to function for about two-thirds of the year at what the required level is. Not all the nurses' residence beds are being phased out. MR. E. CONNERV: But after this year, what's going to happen when those are pha sed out? 1170 j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Monday, 23 June, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: lt's not planned that they all be phased out. We've said all along that the area where the nurses were and where the old school was is only being downsized. Accommodation is being retained so that all the people trained at Brandon and Selkirk spend some time doing practicum placement at MDC. MR. E. CONNERY: What period of time will they spend at the MDC per year? HON. M. SMI TH: lt's about six to eight weeks. We don't have the precise time. MR. E. CONNERY: What will this residence be used for the other weeks of the year? HON. M.

SMITH: Well , since there'd be a rotation group keeping it busy about 22 weeks of the year, it would be vacant the rest of the time unless there was some special - you see in the training sometimes there are options that students can take - and if some opted tor some practicum placement there, that's over and above their basic training, then it would be available for that purpose. MR. E. CONNERY: So the Minister is saying that all of the people coming from Brandon or Selkirk will have residence space available at the MDC? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. E.

CONNERY: Where will the staff, to train the students while they're at the MD C, come from? HON. M. SMITH: One will stay at MDC and in a sense deal with all the classes that come, and the others will travel with their classes. MR. E. CONNERY: Since they will be travelling and so forth and staying away from home, won't that be fairly expensive? HON. M. SMITH: The type of training required is the top priority and it's felt that the practicum placement is an important part of the training. MR. E. CONNERY: What expert said that this was the proper type of training? HON. M. SMITH: What?

I didn' t understand the question. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you repeat the question? We didn't hear it. MR. E. CONNERY: What expert said that this was the proper training that the new program was on? HON. M. SMITH: The negotiation as to the content of the psych nurse training was arrived at in a consultative process with the people who have been involved in the three schools. MR. E. CONNERY: Who were the psych nurses involved in the program? HON. M.

SMITH: The psych nurses, as they relate to the faculties that are involved, there was initially some contention by them that they were in charge of the content of psych nursing; and reading of the legislation, in fact, did say that they had a right to be consulted and to have input into the content but not necessarily to the location and where the instruction would be given. But meeting with the Psych Nursing Association, they maintained that the two-year training program was to train a generic worker. They all pass the same exams and are equipped to work in any one of the three major locations.

If over and above that they choose to specialize in a particular area of work and pick up further training, then that's certainly encouraged, but the basic training is the generic training. MR. E. CONNERY: Is there is provincial staff of psych advisers, etc.? HON. M. SMITH: I think the only provincial people would be the faculties of the psych nursing schools and then the organization of psych nurses thems elves.

There has been a general review in the Department of Health which you might want to ask the Minister of Health about as to the people power needs in the nursing field and health care throughout Manitoba for the future. That was where the determination was made that the differentiated pattern of LPN's and RPN's and AN's and, indeed, some advance training for AN's would be retained in Manitoba. That hasn't been the case in every province across the countr y.

In some areas, this specialty has disa ppeared, and some of the apprehension of the phych nurses was related to that; also, I think it's in Ontario it's disappeared. In Saskatchewan, all the training is done through the community college and there's been quite a debate going on among nursing professionals and health care experts as to what is the best way to train nurses. In Manitoba, we've gone for the mixed mode, I guess you would say, hospital-based, with some of the more advanced nurses taking more of their theory at universities.

There's quite a few different levels, as you no doubt know, in the nursing profession. MR. E. CONNERY: There used to be a Dr. Lowther at Portage la Prairie who was very imvolved, in fact, one of the leaders in the Welcome Home Program, and I believe he's on your staff. What is his position with the psych nursing school closing? HON. M. SMITH: Dr. Lowther is a person who has done a great deal in the field of mental retardation. He is cu rrently on our staff as a medical consultant on a case-by-case basis. There is a wide range of knowledge and expertise in the field now. I don't personally know where Dr.

Lowthe r stands on all the issues. There's quite a range of experts now in the field and, like experts in any other field, they don't all see eye to eye on every issue, but there is a general movement over time away from the exclusiv ely medical mode l to the mo re community based model. MR. E. CONNERY: There's an

article that was in the "Portage Daily Graphic," and I don't have the date but 1171

Monday, 23 June, 1986 I think it was a year, year-and-a-half ago where he really was very concerned over the closing of the psychiatric nursing school. lt says here that he's the Chief Medical Consultant to the Provincial Department of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: I unde rstand how the member might think that he would be the only person to comment on medi cal matters. In fact, he's a consultant on individual cases; he's not a consultant on all the services to the whole system of services to the mentally retarded. MR. E.

CONNERY: Can the Minister tell me why, according to the reports that I have, that the level of academic achievement at Portage was higher than that at Brandon and Selkirk? HON. M. SMITH: I'm sure there are many, many reasons for comparative performance at different schools. Again, the consolidation of the three schools into two will hopefully bring the standard of all three, what was all three, for all the stud ents up. MR. E. CONNERY: Or will it lower them all down to the lower level? That is the concern. If Portage was a good school, why wouldn't it have been kept open?

Also can the Minister explain why there was a much higher attrition rate at Brandon and Selkirk com pared to Portage, double or more at Brandon and Selkirk compared to Portage? HON. M. SMITH: Well, again, the factors of comparing the three schools, I'm sure we could develop a long list of factors in which some would be up in some areas and some in others.

Again, the decision to consolidate was not based on one being bad and the other two being good. lt was based on a notion of consolidating training for an appropriate numb er of psych nurses to meet the expected need in that field in the future. it's irresponsible of us to go on training larger numbers than we think the system is going to employ, and it's irresponsible of us to try to carry on fairly sophis ticated training in too many locations.

Now the member may disagree with the particular consolidation pattern, but I think the intent was to strengthen the program all around and to be fair to the people being trained, that they would, in fact, have a training which would enable them to be mobile and to achieve employment in the next decades. Because when we train, we don't train for yesterday or even today; we train for tomorrow and several decades to come. MR. E. CONNERY: Well, if the Minister had three cars and two of them were in bad shape and one was in good shape, would she trade off the good shaped one? lt just doesn't make sense.

The figures are there, the facts are there, that Portage was a very good school of nursing, and we've closed the best school of nursing. I find it very difficult to comprehend the logic behind that. HON. M. SMITH: Well, I think on this, we just may have to agree to disagree. I think the judgment that one school was great and the other two were rotten is extreme and unfair. I think there are some criteria that are being cited; there are other criteria, but the overall purpose was to consolida te and strengthen. MR. E. CONNERY: I want to go back to the term em ployee.

Did yo u get the informati on on term em ployees and what length their terms are, etc.? HON. M. SMITH: We had only the total num ber, not that amount of detail. I can get that for you for tomorrow. MR. E. CONNERV: Okay, in the overcrowd ing area, we discussed it a little bit, that some of the areas are overcrow ded. If I remem ber, we had so many postponements on stuff that we couldn't get answers on. Westgrove, we have ind ications there are 23 residents where there should only be 15. Is this a fact? HON. M. SMITH: On the overall issue of overcrow ding, I'll repeat what I said before.

There were 1, 100 at Portage. We now are slightly over 700 with the same space; so the overall allegation of overcrow ding is, I don't think, justified. As for the capacity of individual buildings, again, we're looking up that detail, but again the mem ber is quoting from - I don't know where he is quoting those figures from. We could either carry on while we look up that information, or just hold for a minute while we find it. Westgrove is one of the larger buildings and its capacity is 150.

The names that you are using and the standards may apply to some of the cottages, because I don't think any of the main buildings are of that scale. What we do have are the main names of the residences and their num bers. Again, I don't know where the member has drawn his notion of standard. As I say, we are using a building that did hold 1, 100. We now have it down a little over 700 with a goal of 550. There are in fact 21 0 in cottages , 188 in Southg rove, 120 in Northgrove, 45 in Eastgrove and 150 in Westgrove, totalli ng 71 3. MR. E.

CONNERV: What is the standard set by the school for the square footage per resident when there are two or more in a room? HON. M. SMITH: Again, the type of detail that the member is asking is so far apart from the reality there. Many of the people at the school have been living in large dormitories. As I've said, the same space that did house 1, 1 00, we now have down to a little over 700, with the goal of 550; so the space available to each person is on the inc rease.

Again, when you ask about standard, we're building in our standards with the new facilities that we're putting into group homes, and so on; but when you deal with an old facility that has had a great many people, in a sense, you just keep improving and improving. So we aren't operating so much with a standard, as trying to aim at the best quality we can get there. MR. E. CONNERV: Is the Minister's staff not aware of the standards and procedures at the Manitoba School? HON. M. SMITH: Well, we can obtain square footage and provide that for you later. it's our belief that as 1172

Monday, 23 June, 1986 we're making more space available to people in a more varied program, and as we are improving the staff ratios , that they are more critical components of quality. MR. E. CONNERY: Well, the memo, which the Minister doesn 't seem to get from the MDC that I seem to get , the centre has set an ideal requirement of 60 square feet per person where there are more than two beds in a room. The Fire Code Table 31-1-14(

a) says that the minimum will be 50 square feet per person . Can the Minister assure us that there is at least 50 square feet per person , if not , 60? HON. M. SMITH : We are aiming at 120 squa re feet per person, and we're way in excess of 60 square feet at the presen t time. MR. E. CONNERY : That, according to the reports that I have had and information coming out of the re, has been fairly accu rate. I would hope the Minister would check on that and verify that that are the facts of life because I'll be checking also to verify it and I hope that the Minister isn't wrong.

When we 're looking at the people moving out into the community out of the Manitoba Developmental Centre , and we see the physiotherapy and the nursing, the vocational training , the teaching of pastoral care , speech and communication therapies , how does the Minister feel that the residents that move into the community are going to get the quality of service that they are getting at the Manitoba Developmental Centre? HON. M. SMITH: It's part of the planning process that we ensure that we give people equal or better service in the community to what they had in the institution.

The vocational training, there must be a day activity program planned, and we've been working with our workshops to develop standards there and get plans for appropriate expansion and identify the different levels of need. The total system of service delivery in the community is being developed. There is work with medical people. There is a crisis team that is going around dealing with behavioural problems. There's a lot of training programs going on of people. It's a total support system that is being planned and developed.

I di d refer earlier to the four speech and communication people who would be moving over to the regional operations during the year. I guess the basic question that I would like to - agai n, maybe it's not appropriate for the Minister to throw out a question , but when I'm put in the position of answering a long line of questions, I really would like to ask the member whether he is trying to say retain institutionalization at any cost, or is he saying a more mixed program is okay, provided it's well done? It would help me a lot if I knew which position he was adopting. MR. E.

CONNERY: The concern that I have, and I think that our party has, is not whether we keep the facility at its level in Portage la Prairie because it provides jobs; we're concerned that the residents get the best care for them. But there is a real concern that moving people in these numbers into the community that in effect they will regress. The results over the past years, unless the program is just radically upgraded , people have come back into the Manitoba School after two or three years outside , and have regressed so far that it took several years to get back to where they were.

So we've seen the results of them going into the community where they weren 't properly supervi sed, they weren't in adequate homes, and I don't think that this province has the money to be able to do what the Minister is saying. First of all, would the Minister tell us what towns they're looking at moving people into and what kind of a spread? HON. M. SMITH: I have for distribution a list of the program planning that's in place for the next period of time for 137 people. Now , this doesn 't name all the towns that curre ntly have community service for their disabled , but I will name the towns.

Remember that this whole process is organized by region, and there are local regional teams , both staff and volunteers in the area, who are working to identify people at risk and also MDC clients who can move out. In preparing plans for residential care , for vocational care, for medical care , the whole 24-hour pla nning, the towns where the residences are - well, we can distribute it. Just to put it on the record , I'll just run through quickly: Somerset, Winnipeg , Grandview, St.

Malo, Winnipeg , Winnipegosis , Stonewall, Winnipeg , Altona, Portage la Prairie, Austin, Winnipeg, Kildonan, Winnipeg, Winnipeg , Winnipeg, Winnipeg , Winnipeg, Swan River, Winnipeg, Winnipeg, Winnipeg, Brandon, Winnipeg, Winnipeg, Brandon, Brandon and Riverton. In other words , each region is developing their residential program to meet the needs of their particular population. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, J. Maloway: Mr. Connery . MR. E. CONNERY: I asked earlier, in the physiotherapy sector , what sort of facilities are at the Manitoba School.

Did they have the hot water relaxation and that sort of thing at the Manitoba Developmental Centre? HON. M. SMITH: No, we haven't had the hydrotherapy. MR. E. CONNERY: When we look at the number of towns that the residents are going to go into , is the Minister going to increase the number of support staff significantly? HON. M. SMITH: Please repeat it; I missed the question. MR. E. CONNERY: How does the Minister feel that the number of people that we have can cover that territory, or are you going to increase the numbers of support staff significantly? HON. M.

SMITH: I think, when we get to item (d), we can talk about the support staff in the field, remembering that the mental retardation workers will be very actively involved in the planning and monitoring, but the service delivery will be usually by arm 's-length community groups, so they won 't show as staff on our staff. Actually, the mode of payment is per diems based 1173

Monday, 23 June, 1986 on level of care and type of activit y, and then that is managed by local boards or foster parents or whatever . MR. E. CONNERY: As the number of staff is reduced at the Manitoba School, what is the

schedule for reducing the administrative staffing? HON. M. SMITH: Proportionately. MR. E. CONNERY: Is there a plan in place? Do they know which ones, like not necessarily what person but what staff person will be going? HON . M. SMITH: We aren't publicly designa ting positions but we have target numbers, proportionate ones, and then it'll be a pesonnel management proce ss because normally we don't like to dismiss people; we like to, by attrition, manage the downsizing or the redeployment . MR. E.

CONNERY: Can the Minister tell us how the committee that decides if an individual should go into the community and then discusses it with the family , how this committee works , how it's structured? HON. M.

SMITH: I'd like to, before I get into that, just table the Welcome Home fact sheet so that you can see the distribution by region just so that when you see this sheet which identifies the people for whom planning is proceeding well, the first sheet I gave you identi fying the residences in the towns is a Manitoba housing approval list; the other list is the one that shows the individual planning and it is a longer list than the housing approval list . Now you asked about the process used for identifying.

We set up a provincial committee made up of staff from the department and representatives of provincial advocacy organizations. They were responsible for setting the criteria and monitoring the regional plans . The regional committees were set up, again, with regional staff and with representatives of advocacy groups in each region .

Their task was to identify people at risk in their community of institutionalization if they didn 't get better support services, at the same time , to start in a consultative process with the MDC to identify people who could move back from the institution and the criteria were that the local team was to work with the parents and the community . Only where there was agreement would the person from the centre be moved. MR. E. CONNERY: Has the Minister talked to the two people that I named that felt they were being bullied or coerced into having their relative moved int o the community? HON. M.

SMITH: Yes, the other day - I haven 't talk ed to them personally but I have this information about them. Again, I won't give names but you did refer two specific names to me alleging coercion or failure to take family wishes into account . The first person has a sister who is a resident at MDC. This person had been involved in the 24-hou r planning . She'd been contacted with respect to a specific placement and refused to agree to that placement . She did, however, want to come out to

part icipate in the planning and did so. She subsequent ly refused to agree to the plans which were then suspended. The resident was subsequently taken off the placement candidate list ing and remains at MDC. The other person has a resident daughter who had been previously discharged. Her placement had broken down and she's one of the few recent readmi ssions to MDC. You may recall I gave you the numbe rs of readmissions over the past few years and although we are bringing the numbers down quite dramatically , there is still the occasional need to readmit.

We've never said no one should be readmitted ; we've said provide support to the extent you can in the community but if it is deemed desirable , then readmit . The parents feel unsure at this point about making another subsequent attem pt but want to continue participation and planning . They've agreed to review specific placement plans when and if these occur . Meanwhile the resident remains at MDC.

Again , if this member or any other members have any concerns about coercion, I urge them to get in touch with us because we've specifically put the criteria into the program and instructed all our people workin g with the program that coercion not be used. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: As I understand it, we're still under Manitoba Developmental Cent re - (Interjection) - I have been coming and going a little bit, is that correct? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That's correct. MR. J. McCRAE: A little while ago, the Member for Niakwa was talking about the far-reaching effects of MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Could the member use another mike? That one doesn't seem to be working . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman , a little whi le ago the Honourable Member for Niakwa referred to the far­ reaching effects of the decisions made respecting the Manitoba Developmental Centre. In that connection I'd like to ask the Minister a question abou t CO R Enterpris es in Brandon - Am I coming through , Mr. Chairman? - Is Brandon the only location of COR Enterprises ? HON. M. SMITH: Yes.

There are many non -prof it comm unity organizations delivering day activity and pre­ vocational / vocational training to different groups of disabled . COR is the only one of its group , in other words , it's not part of a chain but there are similar­ type organizations in many other communities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Last week, Mr. Chairman, the Minister handed out these sheets breaking down funding to the various community social agencies . I take it COR Enterprises would be one of those administrative grants to occupational activity centres? 1174

Monday, 23 June, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: The mode of funding vocational centres is by a combination of admin istrative grant and then per diems based on level of need for their individual clients. MR. J. McCRAE: Can the Minister give us broken­ down figures for COR Enterprises in Brandon for'85- 86 and '86-87 including the grant plus the per diem? HON. M. SMITH: The specifics, I can get for you for tomorrow. What we're doing with all our workshops is trying to convert them to a similar type of funding.

In the past they've been all over the map; partly because of the way, as I described earlier, a lot of social services have just developed here and there, depending on local initiative and they've negotiated different types of funding. What our aim is is to get them all on a type of grant that gives them an admin grant and then per diems based on level of need. The standard approach to the per diems that we're trying to get sort of regularized right across the system, $8 per person was the average.

If people go through the standards that have been developed by the Manitoba Council for Rehabilitation and Work in cooperation with us, if they meet the standards that are now in place, they qualify for $10 per diem, unless they're severely handicapped, in which case they can get up to $20.00. We're trying to get the combination of administration, because to a certain extent it doesn't vary on a strictly pro-rated basis, and then a series of per diems. MR. J. McRAE: Mr. Chairman, sim ilarly now, ARM Ind ustries is listed under Community Social Services in this handout that the Minister gave us.

Is it a similar situation for the funding for ARM Ind ustries? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, we did hand out that list before, but we said at that time that some of the grants were straight grants; some were on a different format. lt was for work performed or something like this, admin plus per diem. The questions that you're now raising about workshops would be more appropriately dealt with under 3.(

d) Programs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Cha irman, I expected that comment would be coming either from the Minister or from you. In trying to make it relevant, I will ask the Min ister now if she knows how many inmates, or residents I should say, of the Manitoba Developmental Centr e are now en rolled in the COR Program in Brandon? Is that information available? HON. M.

SMITH: Again, I don't know if the member is asking an historical question, in which case it would take a fair bit of research to see how many are there who had at some point been at MDC, or whether he's referring primarily to our Welcome Home thrust. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I'm referring to the Welcome Home thrust, I'm sorry. HON. M. SMITH: Ok ay, we can get that for you tomorrow. We don't have the details. MR. J. McCRAE: I would thank the Minister for that. The point I'm making, Mr.

Chairman, is that, as I understand it, there is a waiting list of a considerable length for people to be enrolled in the COR Program in Brandon, and if there is a flood of people coming from the Manitoba Developmental Centre into our COR Program in Brandon, certain people who are in the Brandon area, or in the Westman area, they'll be victims because that waiting list will grow longer. I know of one example, Mr. Chairman, of a person who has to stay at the Assiniboine Centre and wait for a considerable length of time to get into the COR Program.

I just think that what we're doing is we're not considering the far-reaching effects referred to earlier and tha t other programs are going to be stretched to the breaking point because more people will be wanting to get into the system. HON. M. SMITH: If the premise the member made was accurate, then his conclusion would be, but the premise is not accurate. We don't move anyone out of MDC until we have a plan for the day program or vocational placement.

When we discuss the vocationa l rehabilitation, we can refer to the gradual expansion of that system, but we aren't expecting there necessarily to be enough places without further development. So we're working with that group, as well. No one could leave MDC until that plan was in place.

I think the prob lem in the past with deinstitutionalization, in the whole range of the disabled, was that often people looked only at, well, with the mentally ill, perhaps with managing the symptoms with drugs or whatever, and possibly at the residential placement, but not at the 24-hour needs, day activity, recreation, transportation, whatever. Our approach is to build in the 24-hour planning, seven days a week supports before we move anyone out. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that answers my question satisfactorily except that I might ask the Min ister, can she gu arantee th ose people in the Westman area, who require the programs offered by COR, that residents of the Manitoba Developmental Centre will not disp lace them on any waiting list? HON. M. SMITH: I repeat that the MDC clients won't move unless there is a plan.

Now, the overall sufficiency of supply in vocational rehabilitation services is being dealt with by promoting the developmental da y programming in an area so I guess the only potential might be if there was some priorization between post-mentally ill and mentally retarded, or whatever, because ARM has a bit of a mixed population but it's primarily mentally retarded. Again, we realize the need to expand that type of programming and that is being synchron ized with the Welcome Home. MR. J. McCRAE: The only point I make, Mr.

Chairman, is that there are people who would like to work their way from the COR Program to ARM, which means that people are a little better in control of their faculties once they've got to the ARM Ind ustries Program. lt seems that the best way to go is that people who are 1175

Monday, 23 June, 1986 ready to go to COR, and they 're on the waiting list , shouldn't be bumped because what they're doing, while they're waiting, is absolutely nothing, and wast ing their time . In terms of their own rehabilitation, time is being lost and in some people's cases, that lost time can put them into deeper throes of desperation. That happens when people lack orient ation; their memory is impaired . They 're not ready to go to the ARM Program but are for COR; and if COR isn't available, then they're caught in a bind. HON. M. SMITH: Again, if you run into an individual case, then let us know.

We'll see what can be done . The idea of the vocational is to not keep anyone who is able to be placed in a business or service area . Not everyone will be able to go out into some type of integrated workplace but the goal is to have as many as are reasonable to move out. So it's a case where the local community can really help show the way, and some communities have responded really well by taking one or two, sometimes with a supp ort person, into the private secto r. It's that sort of total spectrum effort that we're looking at. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for that answer .

I do have a case that has been brought to my attention and I will raise it with the Minister privately. Thank you . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Mr. Chairman, one last question . I had asked some other questions earlier in t he afternoon and I don't mean to prolong it but to get back to the psychiatric nurses - I have some question s on group homes but I guess that will be in the next

section . The psychiatric nurses, I would believe, would receive some on-site training with some of the residents of the Portage Home . I would think that this would be of great, great benefit to those nurses, to be able to work with children and people , residents of the home, because I know it's not all children, and in return, also being of great benefit to the nurses, it would be a great benefit to the residents . With the nurses being removed from Portage, how will the benefits that I was talking about, that were accrued to the patients at Portage , be supported?

Are we hiring more staff to look after these residents, fro m the lack of staff because of the removal of the psychiatric nurses from the school? HON. M. SMITH: There are two parts to your question. All these students who are training now at the Brandon and Selkirk courses, will spend six to eight weeks practic and placement at the MDC . They may also go for an additional optional practicum if they choose. They will as well get theory on mental retardation in their course . In terms of staffing impact, nurses in training , although they may enrich a program , are not generally relied on to provide the basic care.

They 're there in a training educational sense , not as the staff displacement. MR. A. KOVNATS: The only thing that I can suggest, you know, if it was a cost-saving feature, I can 't see 1176 the savings in financing if we're going to have to bring psychiatric nurses from Brandon and Selkirk to Portage to do the work that the psychiatric nurses were doing before with this on-site training. So I don't think we can use it as a cost-savi ng feature. HON. M. SMITH: I did read into the record ear lier the saving.

It's our belief that the consolidation of the schools will in fact strengthen the training of all thre e groups, and in fact give the trainees versatile training for the future so they will be equipped to handle the shifts in demand for the next decades , because they will have the training that will enable them to go into any one of the three areas where psych nurses are used in large numbers . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS : Mr. Chairman , I'd like to return to a couple of issues, one being the nursing school and the other the who le question of overcrow ding .

If I heard the Minist er correctly, she said we have in fact had 785 residents in recent times at the Manitoba Developmental Centre. Is that correct? HON. M. SMITH: Well, 1,100, that was the peak. MRS. S. CAR STAIRS: That was 1,100 some couple of years ago but I understand that in the last year or so the height has been about 785. HON. M. SMITH: It's been going down since the pea k of 1,100 so unles s you were more specific about the years it' s difficult for me to give a ... If you want to go year over year we have that data. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Well, I don 't think I want to do that.

But earlier this afternoon when we were talking about staff years the Minister herself used the figure 785 residents, 726 staff years and I thought tha t was the figure, either early in'85 or'84 . HON. M. SMITH: October 1984. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: October 1984. So we're really in fact talking about almost two years of a staff or of a resident population of 785 or less. Well, in the last couple of months we have in fact moved 120 residents out of Northgrove. We are down now to a complement of 721, by some figures 713; it really isn 't sign ificant.

What it means is that some additional 50 residents have bee n placed in cottages , Southgrove , Westgrove or Eastgrove, over what were occupied since October of 1984. Perhaps this is the reason why the staff is now complaining about overcrowding . I don 't think it' s a comparison with 1, 100; I think it's a compar ison with more recent figures . HON. M. SMITH: The capacity of Northgrove was at 220 but in'84 it had around 200; and in June 1986, 118; so that's 82 reduction , and then the overall reduction was 75 so there 's a difference of seven distributed throughout the whole institution. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Well, let's go at it another way, Mr. Chairman . We had 785 spread among four building s

Monday, 23 June, 1986 and cottages . We are going to lose 220 , which gives us a total dec rease of 465, but in fact we're going to have 550. Now my figures come from 785, your figure of October 1984; 220 who will in the next little while in order to meet fire marshal! regulations, we are going to eliminate 220 residents at Northgrove; that would give me a figure of 465 . We're not going to have 465. HON. M. SMITH: 565 . MR. CHAIRMAN: 565, pardon me for correcting your addition . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you. We're going to have 550 . Is that right? HON. M.

SMITH : Again the 550 was the target initially as a minus 220 but it was based on our population . The population has fluctuated or was fluctuating , 565 is what we can now see as achievable by next March . We thought of 550 as a rough target levelling off figure but we haven't got it engraved in stone anywhere. It could be a bit higher or a bit lower , it might fluctua te year by year. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: With regard to the nursing school , perhaps I misunderstood earlier statements by the Minister, but it was my understanding that one of the reaso ns for closing the nursing school at Portage was that we were overtrain ing and that the department didn 't think it was fair to train women and men in a career for which there would be no potential job placement. But then I heard the Minister say that we were increasing numbers that we were going to train at Brandon and at Selkirk . Now , how do those figures become reconciled? HON. M. SMITH: I know it's confusing.

The psych nurse specialty within nursing is primarily found working with psycho-geriatrics, the mentally ill and the retarded , and the mentally disabled . In future, as far as we can project , the demand for psych nursing in psycho-geriatrics will go up because we're living longer and there's more of that type of ailment with an older population . The demand for the mentally ill will stabilize or go down sli ght ly as we develop more community options in that system , and the demand for psych nurses for the reta rded will go down somewhat.

The total number of psych nurses will be somewhat the same but the mix within will shift. We believe that since these projections are best guesses and we live in a human world that sometimes brings us surprises, that it is wise to train psych nurses now to be able to have the basic skills to work in any one of those three areas, that they can also accommodate a preferential training within that basic training . MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: With regard to the staff breakdown , there were for '85-86 , 384 nursing staff which I understand are not all psychiatric nurses and I do understand that; but that nursing staff is going to save for '86-87, a some 380 . In a discussion with the Director of Nursing at MDC , he assured me that the majority of psychiatric nurses , in fact almost all with very few exce ptions , came from the Manitoba Developmental Centre School of Nursing and that they have bee n, until this year - and they see no reasons why it will not be this yea r - be able to place all of their graduates .

They have never had very many applications or work at Portage from either the Brandon School of Nurs ing or tile Selkirk School of Nursing . Is the Minister not concerned that if ther e is not a nursing school at the Manitoba Developme nta l Centre that there will not be trained people to fil l the jobs which naturally come about through attrition? HON. M. SMITH: One of the reasons that the non­ application and the attempt to stay in the town where they were trained developed was that the three different schools were starting to develop rather different specializations .

In the consolidation, what has happened is that the curriculum has been required to become stronger and more balanced between the three work areas that are available in the future . All of the stud ents - not just the Portage group - but all of the students will be required , as part of their basic traini ng, to spend six to eight weeks at the MDC. In addition, they will have a strong theoretical component in that field; so the training for all of them , in a sense, is being strengthened in the mental disability , mental retardation area. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr.

Chairman, has there not always been a practicum at MDC for nurses trained at Selkirk and Brandon? HON. M. SMITH : Not as long, and the theoretical part, has not been as well developed. Again , it's a debate that's gone on throughout nursing as to whether workers are always supplied from local training or whether there is another type of training that can be done at various centres, such as community colleges , and then people in our mobile society find work by going where the work is. We think we have a viable arrangement now. We'll be watching it very carefully.

Should there be any difficulty in recruiting, we can take remedial measures ; but training in the actual town is not the only way to achieve job entry . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: One final question, and I realize it's to some degree outside of her department's purview, but has there been any consideration to what additional costs might be accrued to the Brandon and the Selkirk schools because of their increased class enrolment? HON. M. SMITH: That was worked into the consolidation planning . I should add that we are not sure we can guarantee all the graduates of this year 's class from MDC, a job at MDC .

In other words, we 've already hit a slight oversupply situation. It' ll depend on attrition and so on, which is never precisely predictable . 1177 MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: That was true last year too, as I understand it, but within four months of the gradu ating ceremony everybody was placed at the Manitoba Developmental Centre . When these input costs - and I really do promise, this is the last one - when those costs were put into

Monday, 23 June, 1986 the consolidation figure, were they also deducted from the so-called saving that we're going to have as a result of the closure of the nursing school? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, again the measure had some element of cost saving and some element of improved training . A province of this size to have three separate schools training that number of students just did not seem to us to be practicable. Our department is not generally in the job of training nurses and the consolidation did seem to have merit. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Mr.

Chairman, we talked about the crowding and we have some difference of opinion whether there's crowding or not at the Manitoba School. I believe I'm right . Is there air conditioning at the residences? HON. M. SMITH: This is Dr. Larry Hardy , who is one of our resident experts in the field. He has worked at the centre and is now respo nsible for a lot of the direction in the Welcome Home area . There is air conditioning in the dining room, in the medical ward in Westgrove and there are a few window air conditioners throughout the building , but the total facility is not air condi tione d. MR. E.

CONNERY: I'm told the temperature on warm summer days can go as high as 37 degrees Celcius in some parts of the facility. That was before they moved extra people into it. HON. M. SMITH: We have hot summers. Again, it may be a desirable goal to have all public buildings air conditioned . As I say, it' s just the state of where we're at. MR. E. CONNERY: Just as a comment, I'm told that the now-closed-down dairy barn had a better air mov ing system than the facility had for the resident s, which I think is a pretty tragic commentary .

In the evening, what is the maximum number of residents to a qualified person in the night shift, to be on hand? HON. M. SMITH: The minimum ratio of staff is one to 15 and we have never been below it in recent years . There is a total of 56 people on staff during the nights . That would be nursing staff, 41; 12 housekeeping; two in the powerhouse; one on the switchboard, for a total of 56, and the minimum requirement is 47. It's checked every night and we use casual or overtime staff wherever necessary, if there's illness or vacation . We're never below the minimum ratio and generally exceed it, substantially.

MR. E. CONNERY: What is the maximum then tha t can be looked after by one individual? HON. M. SMITH: One to fifteen. MR. E. CONNERY: I asked the maximum. HON. M. SMITH: That becomes the maximum. It's the minimum staff ratio, so that means it's the maximum number any one person would ever have to deal with; but we're usually in a better ratio than that. MR. E. CONNERY: It's been brought to my atten tion that there are at times as many as 30 residents to one staff member. The concern then becomes the Northgrove residence, which is in the process of being closed down . HON. M.

SMITH: These ratios are based on the number of bodies that are available to help, on the staff that are there to help in the event of a fire condition. Again, if the member has evidence of that not being the case, I'd appreciate it if he would bring it forward . MR. E. CONNERY: I think I mentioned that it's been brought to my attention . . . HON. M. SMITH: That's a vague allegation . MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could just perhaps interrupt the member, the Minister gave a figure - this isn't a place for dispute - you are suggesting that you have othe r figures .

The Minister suggests that if you can bring it to her attention that she would consider it, but the Minister gave the figur es that she has from her staff , so I th ink this is not an item or an appropriate place to dispute information . The Member for Portage. MR. E. CONN ERY: I would request then that the Minister go back to staff and check to ensure that the ratio of 15-1 is in fact the maximum. But keeping in mind the power house people and so forth are not at the residence themselves, and in a case of an emerge ncy there would be loss of life.

I think the reason that I was concerned about this, especially with Northgrove, and I think the Minister now has copies of the confidential memo - well , it 's not a confidential memo to my knowledge. The memo was brought to my attention that during a fire drill in this building on November 18, 1985, "difficulty was experienced with the locks on door s leading from ward to ward by myself and personnel from Government Services .

The doors themselves are badly in need of repa ir and should be replaced to standards of the fir e and building codes and be equipped with magnetic locks and pan ic hardware connected to the fire alarm system ." The memo ends , "It is in my opinion that this bui ldin g is not safe for the habilitation of residents in its present state." We have one concern that the re is far more than 15- 1 ratio of residents to staff . On top of that we have a facility that in itself is very safe.

If there is a situation where they're moving out and it was cosmetics , painting or even new shades or whatever that was needed , that is something that could be postponed, but this is fire safety and in a case of a fire we could lose lives. It would appear from statements of the Mini ster that she's prepared to risk that. 1178 HON. M. SMITH: I think the member has heard me speak on this issue many times before. I repeat the challenge that I put to him once again. If he has any specific allegation to make - a name of a person , a

Monday, 23 June, 1986 time and a place - I will look into it, but vague allegations, I submit, are not responsible on his part. Now I am currently distributing two papers : one that gives the Northgrove fire and safety upgrading and the key points about it; the other that has notes on the specific memos that the member sent to me. He may recall that when he raised the issue in the House , I said that I would check into the memos but what I suspected was they were a selection of memos that did not give the context or the full range of memos .

Now in my notes there is an explanation for the sequence and the substance about each of those memos. I can read the entire two pages into the record or the member may read them, but I think he will find that there is an explanation. For example , the one about the door that stuck , there was one door that stuck and it was fixed that day plus the standing order that should any problem be had with the twice-monthly fire drills , that the doors were to be given top-priority attention.

There was also a series of negotiations with the Fire Commissioner raising all the issues that the memo from their particular fire and safety person raised . The Fire Commissioner agrees that the actions we have taken are sufficient to protect the residents for the period of time in which we will continue to occupy Northgrove. The fixing of those locks was going to require changing the door frames, not just installing locks that could then be replaced. Again, if the member wishes, I could read the entire four pages into the record or he may read them and raise any questions he has. MR. E.

CONNERY : When was the Fire Commissioner with these last discussions - when did those last discussions take place? HON. M. SMITH: As the member will see in the notes on Northgrove letters , Item 3, the Fire Commissioner did know about the locks and did concur with the decision not to proceed at this time . This was last winter when the incident that was being referred to took place. We have had another go-round with the Fire Commi ssioner and he agrees with the measures we are taking.

He did suggest one or two minor additions, but he agreed that the total package of measures that we have taken are appr opriate for a building that is soon to be demolished.

I refer to Point 3 on the Northgrove fire and safety upgrading where it says there are standpipes and hose systems checked , nozzles replaced with updated plastic adjustable nozzles, all obstructions in hallways and stairs are removed , one-stage fire alarm system connected to the power house in the local fire department, new pull stations installed, smoke detectors installed in high-risk areas - more are being installed now, fire drills are held twice-monthly, a metal cabinet is provided in the elevator room, all unnecessary combustible s are cleaned up, approved-type extinquishers in all recommended areas, and night staff are on duty at all times to required ratios .

MR. E. CONNERY: When was this meeting with the Fire Commissioner, this last one? I think I missed the date. Did it take place after I raised the question in the House? HON. M. SMITH: After the question was raised in the House, we got a report on all the series of meetings and communications to respond to the ones that the - the member submitted a couple of memo s. He didn't have the total series of them . We had dealt with the Fire Commissioner last wint er. He knew abo ut the particular problem with the locks and concurred with our decision.

So we had met with him , I presume it would have followed shortly on the memo from the fire and safety officer there who referred to the locks and reviewed the plan that we had to see and reassure ourselves that we had appropriate protection. To be doubly sure , we have met with him again just recently to double check because the last thing we want is to expose people to undue risk of fire . MR. E. CONNERY: The Fire Commissioner , did he get copies of these memos through this process in time? Was he kept aware of what was going on? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, he received the memos but he also sent some back.

The list that you gave us was not a complete list of exchanges. You had some select ones but you didn 't have the total series, you didn't have the sequence . MR. E. CONNERY: Why did the Fire Commissioner, when made aware of what was going on, say that he would have to take another look at it? He didn't make any indication that he had the memos. I phoned the Fire Commissioner 's Offic e myself and talked to Mr. Thorimbert. He gave no indication that he had copies of these memos and told me personally that he had not received them from the department and he would look at them when he received them .

So I mailed copies to him of what I had. HON. M. SMITH: The people at MDC, when they saw the memo from the fire and safety person , checked that the loc ks were in fact being dealt with, if they should stick , and then they checked wit h the Fire Commissioner that the plan that we had for fire safety, and not replacing those locks at this time, but putting in the other safeguards, were in fact in place . Now, there is a relationship between the Fire Commissioner , Government Services and MDC.

I asked the Government Services Minister , who has also given me a series of communications with the Fire Commissioner, and he at all times feels that he was being informed and was supportive of the provisions that we have taken . MR. E. CONNERY: Is it part of the routine that any memo to do with fire safety, especially the one at Northgrove, goes immediately to the Fire Commissioner 's Office? HON. M. SMITH: Well there 's a series of reporting stages, both within MDC and with the Government Services people who work on the budgets for fire upgrading.

The Fire Commissioner has to ensure that there are periodic inspections, or that he agrees with our plans. I think we have been in touch with him on a regular basis to check the plans that we have as 1179

Monday, 23 June, 1986 acceptable. Whether all the flow of memos goes to all the people all the time - I think there is a line of authority through which these memos flow. But he was aware of the issues raised in the memo from the fire and safety officer and concurred with our plan to handle the fire safety. MR. E. CONNERY: On June 13, Mr.

Chairman, I asked a question of the Minister about the material that was being stored at Northgrove and a fire system and, by Hansard: "Madam Speaker , it's been alleged that there's some plastic pipe that has been purchased, but the total upgrading is more complex than that." In her own piece of paper that she has circulated, it now shows that there was 373 electrical smoke detectors, 13 heat detectors, 17 smoke indicator lights, part of an electrical smoke test, 46 bells, 14 hands ets for voice commu nications, 44 speakers, 13 panels, 2 master panels and 2 fire alarm controls.

Now in all of the answers that we've been getting, it leaves me somewhat uneasy when we see that a few pieces of, alluded some plastic pipe turns into this sort of list of material? Could that be explained to me please? HON. M. SMIT H: In 19 74 and 19 77, ther e were extensive reviews by the Fire Commissioner of things that needed doing to bring the MDC up to par. Since that time, there has been a program of fire and safety upgrading and now it's virtually complete, except for the more mode rate changes made in Northgr ove because it is going to be retired.

There are some at Southgr ove which is being done now and will be comple ted when the renovations are done and there is one non-residential area that remains to be done from a long listing. Now when these programs of upgrading were being done , at various times some of the equipment was bought in bulk, but these elements are a relatively small part of the total cost, because to put the magnetic door locks into Northg rove would have required changing all the do or frames. lt's a much mo re extensiv e renovation task than just using these small pieces of equipment.

Now it used to be assumed that an institution, once it was there, would stay forever and that there would not be any plan to close down. However, for us to stop our entire Welcome Home Program and the demolition of Northgrove because we had on hand some pieces of fire upgrading equipment that might turn out not to be used, would seem to me to be inverse logic. So that's the explanation for there being those items in the inventory. MR. E. CONNERY: Was the Minister not aware of what was at the MDC in such a very serious position of fire safety? Did she not know what was there? HON. M.

SMITH: I certainly didn't know all the detail in the inventory. I did know that when we made the decision not to put several million dollars into a fire and safety upgrade of Northgrove, but to plan to close it down, that we consulted extensively with the Fire Commissioner, so that we would have a viable fire safety program in the interim. lt would have been foolish to do it if he said you have to put the several millions dollars in anyway. We wouldn't have accelerated the move to the community as much as we have, but it was a vital piece of the planning to know that he was in approval of our approach.

Now the fact that there were some elements in the inventory - again items which probably thr ough Gov ernme nt Services can be relocated and used elsewhere - to me was not the germane issue, and I certainly didn't ask detailed questions of that sort, because Government Services handles a great many buildings in the province and they would be aware of any inventory such as this and I'm sure would move it around, if they didn't think it was needed there, either for repair or expanded use. MR. E.

CONNERY: I'm not an expert on Beauchesne, so if I say something wrong, I'm sure you'll remind me and I'll withdraw it, but it leaves me very very nervous that the House was misled if the Min ister now says that she knew it was more than just some plastic pipe. I feel that ... MR. CHAIRMAN: lt is out of order . If the impl ication is that the Minister deli berately misled, that is external to the rules. MR. E. CONNERY: I didn't say "deli berately," but I'm concerned that the Minister had some knowledge of more than just plastic pipe being there, but tells us . . . lt makes me very nervous.

Is all of this proper information getting through , or is there a lot of misinformation and, if there is misinformation, we have a serious concern. HON. M. SMITH: I didn't have knowledge of the detail of the inventory at that time. To the best of my knowledge, the plastic pipe was what was stockpiled. Again, this is a more detailed inventory and can set the matter correct. lt seems to me that my area of responsibility was to see that people were safe and that we were proceeding on

schedule with the Welcome Home thrust, so that we would be able to retire this building at the expected date. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: lt was my understanding that about 220 of the mentally retarded were going to be moved by Christmas. Now I hear the Minister saying that this is going to take till March, is that correct? HON. M. SMITH: Janu ary '87 is the target date for emptying Northgrove. There are to be 45 new pla ces in the Southg rove, as a result of the renovation going on, that can be used if we aren't quite at our 220 by Januar y.

So it does provide us a temporary safety net and then when those beds are emptied, they'll be available for improved space for the remaining people. MR. A. BROWN: Of the 220, how many will be moved by Janu ary 1, 19 87? MR. CHAIRMAN: If the member will refer to the Welcome Home fact sheet, I think he has those figures there, if I understand the question correctly. 1180

Monday, 23 June, 1986 MR. A. BROWN: I just found the fact sheets and I'll determine where this total is. According to the fact sheet, then there are supposed to be 210 moved by January 1, 1987. Is that correct? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, with the potential of the three­ month safety net, if you lik e. The y'll be out of Northgrove, but we may have to use some beds in Southgr ove for a short period. MR. A. BROWN: I und erstand that so far there really have been very few moved. What is it? - 40 have been moved so far? HON. M. SMITH: There's a net admission of 5 and a discharge of 80.

Again, as I said, in the development of the Welcome Home, we are also providing some accommodation for people at risk in the community who are being acc ommoda ted as well; so that we now feel we have 14 0 beds in development in the community that should be ready by December 31. A minimum of 85 current residents at MDC should be accommodated by that. The rate at which the institution is downsized is partly achie ved by slowing down admission and by looking after at-risk people in the community and partly by planning to move others out.

Again, the planning is the time-consuming part of the operation and a lot of our plans will, in a sense, come to fruition close to the same time. MR. A. BROWN: The Minister, in answering the Member for Portage, said that the SY's were going to be decreased according to the number of decreases of the mentally retarded staying at the MDC. However, when I asked the Minister earlier whether there was going to be a substantial decrease in SY's over there, she said not really, because those mentally retarded remai ning in Por tage would be mor e severely handicapped and would require more SY's to look after them.

I wonder if the Minister can give me some explanation as to the two differences in the answers that she has given. HON. M. SMITH: I think the member will find that I did not answer as he said. I said that we are improving the staff ratio at MDC to improve the program, not because people are more needy. There may in fact be more needy people there, but I don't think I answered the way the member said. So we're trying to improve that program at the same time. MR. A. BROWN: Can the Minister give me a breakdown in Other Expenditures? HON. M. SMITH: These are for the general operating costs of the institution.

There's an in crease year over year of 72,200. This is made up of a reduction of 75,000 because of the phase out of approximately 70 to the communi ty, 67,200 for federal sales tax and 80,000 for a food and clothing inc rease. MR. A. BROWN: So this is mainly in food, clothing and items of that nature, the Other Expenditures? 1181 HON. M. SMITH: The member might use his good offices to get us forgiveness of the federal sales tax of 67,200. MR. A. BROWN: My next question, Mr. Chairman - (Interjection) - is this ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. A.

BROWN: ... out of $90,443,000, there's only $2,25 0,000 Recoverable from Canada. Now which items are not recovera ble? This seems to me a rather inordinately low recoverable. HON. M. SMITH: Again, the answer is complex, but I think important to understand, and again maybe the member can be some help to us at the federal end of things. In 1977, when established program funding was introduced, prior to that they used to share 50-50 with our costs at MDC. Under the new regime for adult residents, based on a needs test, they would accept only 50 percent of costs up to the OAS /GIS level.

Now if an OAS /GIS level tod ay, that's Old Age Security, Guaranteed Income Supp lement might be in the $8,085 range, the Federal Government would only accept responsibility for half of that or somewhat between $4,000 and $4,500,

whereas at about $75 per diem 365 days per year, the cost to the province of caring for each resident is more in the neighbourhood of $34,000-$35,000.00. So we're getting about $4,000 for an expenditure of $34,000.00. MR. A. BROWN: When the Minister embarks on new programs like the Welcome Home Program or whatever program she may want to enter into, does she not negotiate and try to get funding from the Federal Government before she implements these programs?

I can very well understand that if there's been no dialogue with the Federal Government that they will not accept their responsibility for a program which they had not been a part of. Yet when the Minister goes into any program it would seem to me only logical that she would try to get at least 50 percent funding from the Federal Government before she would implement a new program. HON. M. SMITH: Again, I am very happy to hear the member join our ranks in trying to get 50-50 cost­ sharing on all important social programs.

We are in the process of renegotia ting the Vocational Rehabilitation and Development Program for the day programs for the disabled. We are trying to get a better deal under Canada Assistance Plan and we, as you well know, have been fighting the good fight, leading the fight across the country on EPF, and the increasing reluctance of the Federal Government to shoulder 50 percent of the cost ... Are you a little sorry you asked? . . . And it's progress on all these fronts that is necessary before we are going to get federal money here.

Now we could as a province have said, we won't do anything until the Federal Government acknowledges the shared responsibility and comes in on it. Quite frankly 1 would have been ashamed to be Minister

Monday, 23 June, 1986 responsible for the retarded citiz ens in Manitoba and have done that even though there would have been good fiscal arguments for following that course. MR. A. BROWN: Well, we're quite familiar with the tactics the Minister is using. She will come up with her own program and go on and say well, this is what we want and so on, but there is really no negotiation. HON. M. SMITH: That's not true. MR. A. BROWN: The Federal Government really is not involved with the type of planning which would be needed between the two levels of government in order to come up with an acceptable funding program.

So this is the concern, Mr. Chairman , that I have, at the type of negotiation that is going on. There is no way that the type of negotiating that the Minister is doing that she is going to be getting funding from the Federal Government because the cooperation is not the re. HON. M. SMITH: The member is assuming that we haven't, at every federal-provincial meeting of officials and of Ministers in the last two years, laid on the table these very, very needs and pleaded for some kind of recognition of a more equal cost-sharing across this country for social services.

We've done it in every form for every area of need and I find it just unthinkable that the member would sit there and make those allegations. Some particular individuals, we've asked them to specialize in the department on looking for possible ways of getting better cost sharing. Under the economic programs there is a system in place of regional directors who do, at the staff level, work out a lot of these joint planning approaches.

As a matter of fact, the whole system of ERDA agreements and general development agreements that preceded them had developed some kind of cooperative planning mechanism, but on the social side we've never had that . I would welcome the member 's support and encouragement of colleagues in Ottawa to develop something similar on the social side because I think the development of the social programs in Canada is one of the greatest achievements of Can ad ians of this century , if you please.

And I think to maintain and develop where it isn't quite in a mature state would be the greatest achievement that we, as a government, could possibly achieve. I look forward to the member 's wholehearted support and if he wishes to put it in writing I'd be even more delighted. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER : Mr. Chairman , I'd like you to return for a moment to the sheet that the Minister passed out before that refers to 137 beds under the Welcome Home Program in the Status Report as of June 17, 1986.

In the Annual Report for 1985 the Minister , on Page 19 they referred to some 137 or 38 individu als returned into the community. Are these the 137 beds that are being talked about in the report? MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, do you have the page number? 1182 MR. G. MERCIER: Page 19. Now that was in the photocopy, not in the glossy version. HON. M. SMITH: If I have deduced correctly what you're referring to , you 've added up the 61 individu als placed in the community and the 77 at-risk person s as of December 31, 1985. That would total 138 but not all from MDC .

The list that we handed out with the note , the 137, that is the future situation and is the list of mortgages that are firm with MHSC. In fact , we have planning that's coming to its maturity and we think is realizable by next January over and above that but this is the list of homes where the mortgage has been approved, un der MHRC, Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Minister then saying that none of these beds on this sheet are presently in existence? HON. M.

SMITH: Again , the Annual Report went to March 31 and we' re now th ree months later , so some of these will be starting to phase in. In other word s, we're one-quarter of the way through this year. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, I ask a question then. For exa mple , the St. Mal o residence . There presently is a community re sidence there. Is this an additional res idence in St. Malo? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, these are incremen tal. MR. G. MERCIER: And SPIKE presently exists. Are these additional beds? HON. M. SMITH: This is their new facility. MR. G.

MERCIER: What is the relationship then between the Welcome Home fact sheet, which refers to 140 beds currently in development and the status report as of June 17? HON. M. SMITH: Just before I address that, that really comes under Item (d), not Item (c). I suppose because we're talking about the instituti on and the community program as linked - (Interjection) - Yes. You're referring to the fact sheet in the Annual Report , are you? - (Interjection) - The difference in number, the 137 list is the mortgages that have already been approv ed.

Others are in process ; there's applications in. - (Interjection) - Sor ry, these are the ones appli ed for. The others are at the next lower stage of planning . MR. G. MERCIER: Which is at the lower stage of development? HON. M. SMITH: There were two fact sheets handed out, one titled Welcome Home Fact Sheet and one titled Financing of Community Residenc es, Welcome Home Program . The Welcome Home fact sheet , the 210 is the group whose planning is sufficiently far along that we believe by next year, by January , March if we run into snags , will be achieved.

The financing list is the one s where we're at the application for mortgage stage , so they're somewhat more advanced than some of the others ;

Monday, 23 June, 1986 but we feel that we will be able to complete and flow the funds, final approvals for the 210 . MR. G. MERCIER: Where will the 210 operational beds be for 1986, relating to the Welcome Home fac t sheet? Where are they going to be? HON. M. SMITH : The numbers are listed by regi on on your Welcome Home fact sheet. If you want the breakdown region by region, we do have a report - we have one copy of the regional report and the update. We can get a copy done and distributed. That would identify the towns and so on where the beds will be. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, it's difficult to pursue this lin e of questioning without having the sheets that show the 210 specific beds that you 're projecting for all of 1986. I move that committee rise . MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee , please com e to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply has been cons idering the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture . We are now on Item No. 6.(a)

(1) Policy and Economics Division, Administration: Salaries - the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , before we begin our discussion in this area , I would like to take this oppor t un ity of introducing to members of the committe e, the Director of our Economics Branch , Heather Campbell. The Assistant Deputy Minister is away at a function tonight. Craig Lee is the Assistant Deputy Minister. He may be joining us later this evening if he return s, but if he is not back then perhaps at our next meeting.

As well I'd lik e to present , particularly for the honourable member, numbers of farmers ' crops, major grains and oilseeds by region and numbers of livestock producers, all that information that the Member for La Verendrye wanted from us. We have that information now, one for the Member for Virden and the Member for La Verendrye, for their information , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden . MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you , Mr. Chairman .

Certainly I know that I have a number of members who want to ask questions in this area, and I'd just like to make a few comments before we get into the area in any depth. But as I look at the industry of agriculture , certainly where we've developed in the past 100 years wasn't developed by having a lot of regulations in place ; and we're moving into an area where a lot of the regulated commodities are going to be discussed . In terms of my view of agriculture, I think our industry in this province and in this country as a whole has developed exceedingly well in 100 years .

It was built on personal initiative; it was built on pride; it was built on desire to accomplish, and as much as members opposite want to play down the word , the word "profit" had a lot to do with the initiatives and incentives that came into making agriculture what it is in this country. So we must never lose sight of what it takes to make the industry grow. When I look across the water at China, a country that used to import a lot from us, they put more initiative, more incentive into the hands of the local person and their production has increased tremendously over the last numbe r of years.

I know man y members on this side have a lot of concerns about ability of farmers to produce , in other words , keeping the regulations open so that they can produce, and a lot of concerns about small , mixed farmers being able to produce a number of commodities to supplement their incomes . We're going to hear some comments from this side regarding the dair y industry, for sure. There 's been a significant problem with quo ta transfer ever since the government on the other side came into power.

Quota transfers weren't taking place ; a freeze was brought in, a retirement policy was floated , you haven't been able to find the solution. I consider it's imperative that a solution be found fairly soon in that industry, because if I hear anything from the control commodities is continuing in the dairy area about transfers of quota . I would like to have the Minister start by telling us in the Economics and Policy Division what are some of the major initiatives that are going on within that area . I would like him to comment on what's going on and then we'll question from thereon . HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps I should start by giving the regular technical data of the staff and staff complement in the division: There is an administrative staff of two , which covers the Assistant Deputy Minister and his stenographical support, and in the Economics Branch , we have a total staff complement of sixteen . You have two Branch Administration, five Economic Market Analysis, two in the Statistics and seven in the Policy Analysis, for a total of sixteen. In the Natural Products Marketing Council , you have a total staff complement of four, two Administration and two in Inspections and Research and Analysis.

Milk Prices Review Commission, you have no staff years there; the staff complement there is provided for by the Policy and Economics Division for the Milk Prices Review Commission . In terms of the Farm Lands Ownership Board , you have four staff years in the Board Administration, complementing that branch in the research status to the university, and that basically deals with that branch of the department. The major area dealing with the Policy and Economics area is really ...

The responsibility of the branch is for the collection, storage and analysis and dissemination of statistics, marketing production information on Manitoba 's agricultural commodities. The branch provides advi c e, information and recommendations to senior officials , other branches and agencies and farmers and members of the agricultural industry. The branch also is responsible for providing leadership and coordination of long-term policy and program developments within the 1183

Monday, 23 June, 191.16 department. It develops policy an progra m priorities for the department consistent with the overall direction and priorities of the government as a whole, and of course some of the main reports compiled by the Analysis Section, the Manitoba Markets Weekly Report, Periodic Situation Outlook Reports, and most agriculture commodities, as well as the Outlook Conference in Brandon and Winnipeg . The Statistics

Section does do the analysis and dissemination of agriculture statistics for Manitoba. Of course, that branch assists in the preparation of the Yearbook of Manitoba Agriculture, the estimates dealing with net farm income, farm capital, outstanding farm debt, bankruptcy statistics, seeded area, estimates, Monthly Agricultural Conditions Report and Weekly Crop Report, Agriculture Land Values Report, Farm Income-Outlook; those are some of the areas in terms of the statistics that we provide.

In the policy analysis area, any of the major policy areas that we would be doing work on whether it's the quota question or whether it is in the interprovincial discussions dealing with interprovincial marketing and the regulated area, the Policy and Economics Branch would do analysis work for the governmen t. The report and the background work on the chemical pricing and dissemination would have been assisted work prepare d by that branch.

Most of the follow-up work would be ongoing in terms of providing advice whether it be to the Beef Commission doing the analysis of the Federal-Provincial Tripartite Program, for example , that we put out and went out to the country meetings as a separate entity to the Beef Commission because we felt that there should not be the Beef Commission to be seen as if they're criticizing a federal program, really should be someone else, even though we felt that responsibility should have rested with the Federal Government, but there was no one doing it and the media certainly wasn't picking it up even though that information was there.

We felt part of the process should be the preparation of what we would say a factual presentation of both how the program would work, the federal progra m; what benefits or disbenefits might be so the producers at least would know what they're faced with and providing input back to the government as to how our decision making would go on . MR. G. FINDLAY: I guess a comment then on the Beef Commission study that was discussed around in the meetings this spring .

Certainly, the individual in the department that prepared the analysis did a very line job, a Neil Hamilton, of presenting it at the meeting that I sat in on for information purposes. He answered questions in an unbiased way but he mentioned the Beef Commission not wanting to get caught up in the controversy. I will say that once the Beef Commission members spoke in the meeting, he certainly indicated what direction he wanted the farmers to lean, and then they filled out the questionnaires.

The member from the department did a good job, but I wouldn't say the Beef Commission kept the position unbiased through the entire discuss ion. I would like the Minister to tell us what he's planning to do with regard to the recent Wheat Boa rd announcement that the freight charged to producers of Manitoba should be increased by around $5 a tonne to sort of freight back-off costs. I know he's answered this question in the question period. He said it 's a federal problem , but let's look at it this way, Mr. Minister.

The Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan are basically in competition with us when it comes to paying freight costs. They've decided that we have an advantageous position. I asked the Minister what the dep art ment is going do to dete rmi ne if Manitoba has an advantaged position over the other two provinces. They do not.

Even though the decision on whether to implement this kind of policy has been delayed by one year, August 1, 1987, is not that far away, and what is your department doing to protect the producers of Manitoba in this situation, to demonstrate facts and analysis that give some information that we can use in the argument that's going to have to take place with the Wheat Board to protect farmers of Manitoba? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , there may be some further work that we should be undertaking but let's remember that we did not put th at proposal forward, it was put forward federally and we took a very strong posit ion - yes, I would say that the influence of the new member of the Boa rd of Com missioners of the Canadian Wheat Boar d may have had, I don't know, I won't make any comments one way or another - but certainly that's been an area 'that has been put forward as a result of the new commissioner coming from the Province of Alberta and the perennial comments of producers in Alberta , dealing with the question of barley and the shipments to the West Coast, as somehow being a greater cost and an unfair burden on those producers from Alberta, and on that basis that there should be som e change in the structur e.

As the member knows we've taken a very strong position in this area, along with several farm organizations. I'm not sure at this point in time whether it is, as some members might suggest, incumbent on us to come up with alternatives to this scheme . Quite frankly , we believe that the system now in place is fundamental and was fundamental since the beginning of the pool ing of prices and, really, if there are changes being made, one has to examine what those changes would do to the whole area of pooling and the whole pricing structure and how they treat transportation.

We're certainly ope n to further suggestions and work with farm communities, but I'm not of the opinion at this point in time that we should be now pro-acting and looking at alternative suggestions to the one that was proposed. Quite frankly, we believe that the situation as it presently exists, is the one that should contin ue to be in place. MR. G. FINDLAY: Certainly we wouldn't dispute that it shouldn 't change from where it is, but the fact is that there are parties out there that want to have it changed and they 're working towards that direction.

They have produced some facts already which we have to counter , and in this section, we'll see further down, you 're tied in with the University of Manitoba in terms of research grants there and certainly they have resources in their Economics Department that could do a significant analysis in this direction. You should have resources in your department that could do an economic analysis. 1184

Monday, 23 June, 1986 I would thin k that we' d better mo tivate some discussion in that direction and try to get some facts out that will support our cause to keep things the way they are, because they're not going to stay the way they are without some work to keep them there. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I have no quarrel with what the honourable member is saying in terms of us doing some further work to strengthen our present position and making sure that we retain the - and I would not say the benefit - the equity of pooling in terms of transportation costs and the recognition of how we hsve evolved over the last 60, 70 years in this whole process; and basically we can in fact restate not only our position but the implications of what the changes are and what should take place and how fundamental it is.

We can do that and highlight that to say this is what the impl ications are and here's why it should remain, but we would be in fact elaborating a bit more on what we've already said. MR. G. FIND LAY: I'm sure he's well aware, but we sit in the centre of Canada here, mile agewise, the furthest from salt water east or west than any other province. You can talk about salt water to the north, but that's only accessed by Northeastern Saskatchewan and some of the producers in the northern part of Manitoba so, in the long-term, we have the most to lose if we don't get active and move in that direction. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Ho nourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, at the risk of getting into an argument with the Minister of Agriculture, which certainly we don't want to do because this is a neutral political forum, surely the Minister of Agriculture is not saying that as the Department of Agriculture, as the Minister responsible tor farmers, and anything that impacts on them as significantly as that freight rate or that backoff from the West Coast proposal the Canadian Wheat Board made, anything that has that major an impact, particularly on farmers in the Lac du Bonnet area who will be more impacted than, for instance, in my area or the Member for Virden's area, I think it's absolutely inc umbent upon this Minister of Agriculture not simply to state that he likes the status quo, but rather to back that up with some factual research.

The expertise is available, as the Member for Virden pointed out, it's at the University of Manitoba, Faculty of Agriculture. The Minister has even used some of the independent research firms that do good agricultural research; for instance, in the Crow rate debate he used independent firms to develop information.

I think it's absolutely incumb ent that this Minister, if he's going to say "well, the status quo is fine," to develop the kind of position papers and the factual presentation to justify why he believes it should stay, because there is a lot of dollars on the table with this move, and Manitoba is in a position of having fewer farmers tha n Saska tchewan and Alberta, particularly Alberta, and have the most to lose.

I think it's bordering on negligence that the Minister simply says "wel l, we like the status quo," but we're not doing anything to research and defend our position to maintain the existing freight rate structures. Mr. Chairman, what did you say from your seat? HON. B. URUSKI: Let your colleagues bring that forward. MR. D. ORCHARD: No. See the Minister is trying to get into a partisan political debate and trying to blame the Federal Government for something again. This came out of the Canadian Wheat Board and its membership. My honourable friend says it has to be a legislative change.

What would happen if that legisla tive change comes in? I suggest this Minister of Agriculture would say : "Oh, it's another evil doing of the Federal Government," after having sat on his rear and not developed any kind of information to defend the Manitoba position.

When I was Minister of Transportation, we defended Manitoba's position in requesting road upgrading funds to compensate for rail-line abandonment The former member for Lac du Bonnet, when he took over as Highways Minister, continued that study - upgraded it, updated the numbers to bring them up to current status to present a unified voice from two governments. There was nothing political about that. We started out fighting the federal Liberals - we're still fighting the federal Conservatives on that. That's not a political partisan issue. This one isn't either, this is a Canadian Wheat Board potential decision.

Unless this Minister defends the farmers in Manitoba with some factual backup as to why the status quo should remain, then he is in effect abandoning the debate to Al berta, who will, for certain, put in the dolla rs into researching their position and present a unified strong voice. If this Minister thinks that he can just say, well, the status quo is fine without backing it up, he's abandoning his responsibility to the farmers of Manitoba.

I urge him to use some of the money that he's got in his department to fund some research into it, whether it be at the University of Manitoba or through private firms. lt would be money well spent to protect Manitoba farmers in their freight rate structure. Anything less, the Minister is not doing his job. Well, are you going to do it? Are you going to do it? MR. G. FIND LAY: Agree or disagree. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicates he told my critic what they'll be doing; in other words, nothing, and he is going to let the Manitoba farmers go undefended in this potential freight rate change.

That's what the Minister has indicated he's going to do is nothing. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I've indicated to his colleague that we will be looking at this whole area and that's what I intend to stick by. MR. CHAIRM AN: 6.(a)( 1)- pass; 6.(a)(2), Othe r Expenditures-pass; 6.(b)(1), Economics Branch, Salaries-pass; 6.(b)(2), Other Expenditures-pass. 6.(c)( 1) , Ma nitoba Na tu ral Produ cts Ma rketin g Council, Salaries - the Member for Virden. MR. G. FIND LAY: I guess the first thing I'd like to ask the Minister to record for us and give some dis cussion 1185

Monday, 23 June, 1986 on is the number of appeals that r ... we occurred in the last year and compare it with the last three years prior to that, and what areas those appeals have come forward in. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, our secretary of the Natural Products Marketing Council - and I'm sure the Member for Virden is closely familiar with him - Gordon Ma cKenzie will be joining us and will be providing the information as to the num ber of appeals that have come before the council in the last year to see whether we can provide him with as much statistical information as we can in this area.

In the calendar year 19 85 there were - oh it's a fiscal year - April 1, 19 85 to April 1, 1986 the re were 11 appeals and 4 were granted, 7 were dismissed. You can break them down in this area: milk, 7 - 2 granted, 5 dismissed; eggs, 1 dismis sed; beef, 3 - 2 granted, 1 dismissed. MR. E. CONNERY: I didn't catch that. HON. B. URUSKI: Beef. MR. E. CONNERY: Beef? HON. B. URUSKI: Yes, under the Beef Commi ssion. MR. E. CONNERV: I wanted you to go back three years to compare those total numbers. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we'll have to get my honourable friend that information.

We don't have it here tonight, but I believe that there would have been more appeals in the previous year, especially in the milk area, in the whole area of milk. Milk has been the biggest number of appeals anyway, whether it's cream or milk appeals. MR. G. FINDLA V: Why would there be more appeals in milk than in other areas? What's the major problem that's in that industry? HON. B. URUSKI: Mostly in the area of cream quotas and the number of producers in the whole area.

You're looking, for example, in the poultry industry, at probably as many less than maybe a half of the producers in all three feather commodities as there are in the entire dairy industry. So the dairy industry, of course, by the sheer num bers is greater than eggs, chickens and turkeys put together in terms of numbers of producers. You have a lot of activity in the cream area against cream allocations because the whole quota system on cream was really , virtually, I could say, unregulated in terms of how the board dealt with the global quota and the individual quotas. So there were a lot of difficulties.

The board would allow producers to go on their last year's quota and then towards the end of the year they were granting all the applications that were coming, and before the year ended they put a halt to the whole process, so there was an awful pile of appeals over the last number of years. That's the kind of things that resulted in appeals to the council. MR. G. FINDLA V: Certainly, in the milk area, there's been a fair bit of concern expressed to me, and I know you've heard it, too, about the transfer of partial quota.

I'd like to know what the Minister would like to share with us in that area in terms of changes that are going to be upcoming. He flew the retirement policy past and I don't think it was received well. What direction are we going in now? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I can go this far.

Fairly intensive discussions have taken place over the last numb er of mo nths sinc e the re-election of this admin istration in trying to, in as cooperative a way as we can, resolve this longstanding problem of partial transfers of milk quotas, yet trying to protect the integrity of the system and recognizing that there has to be some flexibility in that whole area. Where we will end up, I will not be able to say this evening as to what the final outcome will be other than there are discussions going on between the council and the Milk Board, which we hope will be concluded very sh ortly.

If there will be any changes, I would hope, if the discussions are productive, that whatever changes we bring about will be in place for the beginning of the next dairy year, which would be August 1. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was afraid I'd alm ost missed this portion of it here and I'd be remiss if I could not get a few kicks at the cat here because this has been a very important part of my area of concerns. I'd like to start off with asking the question: Who actually made the decision that there would be no transfer of Class 2 quotas?

Was it the Minister or was it the Manitoba Natural Products Marketing Council that made that decision? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I would think, in legalese terms, I would be held responsible for that. lt was on recommendation of the council to me in terms of what was happening in the industry with partial quotas, but certainly the decision rests with myself. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister also indicate with whom was the negotiation actually taking place?

Is the lobbying taking place with the Minister - I'm talking of the Manitoba Milk Producers Marketing Board - are they negotiating or lobbying the Min ister? Are they negotiating with the Natural Products Marketing Board Council? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, with all the boards, there are ongoing discussions that take place in terms of changes in their marketing plans. The discussions that are now being held with the Milk Board and government are with the committee of board members and committee of council. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: I'm wondering if the Minister could maybe clarif y a thing that's been bothering me and the dairy people. What was the rationale for stopping the transfer of Class 2 quotas outright, which is totally contrary to - we had the Minister of Natural Resources at that time, the Member for Lac du Bonnet, who allo wed fish quotas to be sold together with their equipment, which is completely cont rary. 1186

Monday, 23 June, 1986 What I'd like to know is why this particular group in the dairy industry was singled out to be persecuted, in a sense, by not allowing them to have these transfers there. That's exact ly what it is, Mr. Ch airman, a persecution of a certain element in our agricultural society, a group that is doing well. They've been able to look after themselves relatively well. Here, all of a sudden, from out the blue, we have the interference from a Minister, you know, who I think obviously had his head in the sand, or something like that, and cannot really justify this kind of an approach.

Now he's backing off; he comes out with this crazy retirement program that 95 percent of the dairy people rejected out of hand. Now he's finally pushed into a position where he has to start com ing back and negotiating. And I just want to indicate to the Minster some of the problems that it has created, for example, with people who want to borrow mon ey, the disadvantages that it put the Manitoba dairy farmers compared to people in Ontario, B. C., other areas, where under FCC they can borrow up to $3,000 per cow with quota because they have value on quota.

In Manitoba, under MACC, under FCC, at the banks right now, we're down to $1 ,000 per cow with quota. Every time the Minister gets into a little bind, Mr. Chairman, then he starts making fun and trying to - he's a pretty sneaky guy in that respect, you know. When the heat comes on, then he tries and wiggles out of it. In this particular case, I'm not just going to let him wiggle out of it that easy because he made a poor decision and I'd like to know exactly where it's at right now. He indicated negotiations are going on.

If the Minister is talking of a 60/40 negotiation, I want to know the rationale for that kind of thing because it's again a reversal of his position. He has created all kinds of confusion in the dairy industry. There's farmers out there, young farmers, that have to expand for economic reasons, that want to expand. There's older farmers that want to reduce their herds. Nothing can take place like this. I want to know exactly. I'll give the Minister a chance to maybe explain what his objective was when he put these farmers in this disadvantageous position for borrowing money.

Their equity with banks, for example, has been eroded. They used to borrow up to $3,000 per cow with quota, and the Minister knows that. Can anybody imagine how naive this individual is, or some of the people, by saying there was no value on quota. They were dealing under the table for the longest time, and honest people were forced to take and sign affidavits saying there's no value on quota when everybody knew they were dealing under the table. So what is this Minister trying to acc omplish? I'd like to have some rationale for this. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the hono urable member has answered his own question, quite frankly. 1t was his admin istration that brought in this whole policy area of sale of quota with cows with a declaration that said there is no value for quota. lt was his colleague, the Member for Arthur, who gave direction to the Natural Products Ma rketing Council that says anyone that is gaining value by the sale of that cow with quota, his quota should be cancelled. That's what your government said. We're only enforcing what your government put into place. That's quite frankly what we did. We said it's happening, quota is gaining value.

The member is right. In terms of farmers losing equity, it's because they said, well, we're lying on the one side because we're signing declarations saying that there is no value for quota but, on the other hand, FCC is saying, yes, we're putting on $3,000 per cow or whatever the amount was of quota, whatever the amount is, and we now . . . pardon me? MR. L. DERKA CH: Who's in charge? Who's in charge now? HON. B. URUSKI: The lending institution made their own decision. A MEMBER: No. HON. B. URUSKI: The lending institution, FCC, made their own decision when it came to lending. They came, Mr.

Chairman, to a meeting that I held in Brandon, talking about this whole question of fish quotas and quota values. In fact I offered the dairy producers the same policy as fishermen have. Did they take me up on it, Mr. Chairman? No, they wouldn't take me up on it because all the production would have gone out into the wind. They wouldn't take me up on it. I offered the milk producers the same quota policy. In fact, if the Honourable Member for Emerson is now saying we should have the same policy in dairy as we have for fishing, let's have him say so. I'd like to know whether that's what he's saying.

Let's have the same pol icy that we have in fishing as we have here. - (Interjection) - Let me finish, Mr. Chairman. I'm sure that he doesn't want to take that up, but if he does, let him tell me. Mr. Chairman, the lending institutions came to that meeting and argued that there should be a value for quota. Let the marketplace determine the value is so quite frankly, they were caught.

They were caught in a bind that they had loned out money, based on their assu mptions that there should be value for quota and if that farmer sold out they would in fact sink the next farmer deeper into debt and he would be coming around because if he'd buy the other farmer out, he'd be coming around saying, I can't recoup my mone y. I need either greater prices for my milk to cover up this expenditure with this big debt load or at least confirm the policy of value for quota and let us continue on like they've done in Ontario and the other provinces; that's what was being argued.

But the honourable member should know that it was his own government's policy that we're enforcing. MR. A. DRIEDGER: The Minister, like usual, when he gets into a bind, talks out of both sides of his mouth. I used the fish qu ota as an ex ample of the inconsiste ncy, where one department is saying that we will allow value on quota and you can sell these things, and then the Minister - and he still hasn't answered my question and we'll stay here until he does - what 1187

Monday, 23 June, 1986 was the rationale for disallowing Class 2 quotas? He doesn't know. What was the rationale for that? HON. B. URUSKI: When the honourable member indicates that part of the declaration that - I told him that - farmers made was that they declared there was no value for quota. He admitted here in this House himself, Mr. Chairman, that there was value for quotas. What we were doing was enforcing that very declaration that producers were signing. We're saying it was getting out of hand.

Producers were admitting the mselves that the system was going nowhere; it was really a boon to the cattle dealers, to the middlemen in the process, and they thems elves wanted the system done away with, quite frankly. The produc ers the mselves said, if we do anything let's at least get rid of the cow dealers in the whole process and the Milk Board would have wanted to as well. They made certain proposals to us; they were not accepted. We made a proposal back to them in terms of the retirement allowance and that wasn't bought.

Now there are discussions going on and, as I indicated, I can't give an indication of where it's going until the discussions are in place and there is some sort of a proposal put forward by the Milk Board and the marketing council; but there are discussions going on to try and resolve the situation of the partial transfers of quotas. But what the end results will be, at this point in time, I am unable to say because if I say something here tonight and the discussions go another way, I'm sorry, I won't be able to deal with that question down the road.

Let the discussions proceed, and they're working, and once they've been concluded we will be bringing those changes forward and of course the government and the Milk Board will be announcing them. MR. A. DRIEDGER: The Minister just actually verified what I indicated, that he didn't know why he imposed a restriction on Class 2 transfers. He doesn't really know. But he took and singled out the group of dairy people in Manitoba; and this is a government and a Minister who says I listen to what the people want; 95 percent of the dairy people told him what they wanted.

He's been at meetings enough where he was lucky to get away with whole skin because they were coming after him pretty heavy and he would not listen. Ninety-five percent of the dairy produc ers rejected his crazy proposal, the retirement proposal that he had. They've told him what they want. They want buy and sell of quota; that's what they want. So the Minister, realizing th at th ey're not acc epting his retirement package, is now backing off and saying, okay, negotiate with the guys, see how close can you get.

Ok ay, supposing that we're looking at, and I would suspect without having any knowledge of how the negotiations are going and I don't know whether it will jeopardize anything or not, but I insist on discussing it here, but if we're looking at a 60-40, 60 percent can be transferred for a cost, and 40 percent goes back into the board for reallocation, can the Minister explain how he justifies that kind of an approach, and if there's 40 percent going to be going back? I suspect this is where the Minister is at. He didn't like the 80-20 that there was before.

He tried to kick the whole thing out and now he's coming back up the steps again slowly, kicking and screaming a step at a time and I dare say, Mr. Chairman, he knew that part of our policy during the election was that we would allow buy, sell of quota, which is what the people wanted. I want the Minister to explain to me how he can justify, or how he visions this 60-40 business, if that is what it's going to be settled at, what is going to happen with the 40 percent that goes back to the board? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I will not indulge into any speculation on what the final, or any kind of a plan might be, because the moment I start indulging into possibilities, then quite frankly we're all over the place. There are so many combinations that one could make assumptions on of what this might be, what that might be and, I'm sorry, the honourable member can continue all he wants. I can't get into that discussion because there are discussions under way and they haven't concluded.

For me it would be, quite frankly, and I think for the honourable member, if he wants to go on a particular course of action, let's say, the 60-40 that he wants to go on, and if it should happen, let's say it ends up at 50-50, what then will he say? Will he say the roof fell in on me, and the Minister even was worse than I predic ted he was. So, Mr. Chairman, at this point in time I would find it quite unproductive. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, the roof fell in the moment that this Minister stuck his nose in a business where he had no business sticking it in, with the dairy industry.

But I want to hear the justification of the Minister if there's going to be an apportionment. Let's forget which apportionment, but obviously there was before, it was 80-20. Wh atever the apportionment is, how does the Minister see that portion that is going back to the board being allo cated to prod ucers? Is it going to be on a first come, first served basis? Is it going to be according to a list that's been sitting there for 10 years with almost 400 names or over 400 names on there? How does he envision that to proceed? There must be a game plan.

I want to know where the Minister's going with this whole project. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, any quota policy that will be agreed to and set will have the premise that the quota is the responsibility and the property of the board. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Is he talking of the Milk Produc ers Marketing Board? Is the Minister then saying that they will have the adjudication to do with the quota as they please, in terms of allocating it? Or is the Minister going to be setting out guideli nes that young farmers can get into this thing? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, those kind of options I'm sure are being dis cussed.

What the outcome ultima tely will be, as I said, I can't ascertain and speculate at this point in time. But I've indicated that the basic principle embodied in any transfer policy would be, that the quota is the property of the board and I believe that would be generally accepted by most 1188

Monday, 23 June, 1986 members in this House, maybe not by the Member for Emerson, but I think most members would in fact accept that propostion. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister stuck his nose in here, disrupted the whole system. Can he now tell us what he envisions happening with this thing? - because even no matter what agreement they come to, if he doesn't like it he's going to get in and change it again to his liking. I want to know the direction that he feels he wants to go with this thing. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the honourable members have heard my speeches before.

He knows what my speeches are when it comes to trying to lessen or have no value for quota. However, what the outcome will be, I still do not have any proposal that has been, in fact, finalized and presented to me for consideration to my government. But as I've indicated to all honourable members, discussions have been ongoing since April 21 when I met with the board, as a follow-up to my reappointment to this office, to continue the work that we began over the winter months and that's where they took off from and they're still ongoing. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister is saying that he's hiding behind th e fact that negotiations are going on; that's fine and dan dy. But he is the man who makes the final decision that will okay it or veto it again and that's why I'm asking him, what will he accept? Will he accept value on quota on a percentage basis? He, himself, would you accept value on quota on a percentage basis? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, at this point in time there are discussions going on and I would think . MR. A. DRIEDGER: You're hiding behind it. HON. B. URUSKI: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the member says, "You're hiding behind it." What the end result will be has yet to be se en, whether or not th e government will accept what the recommendations are between counsel and the board; in fact, at this point in time how I feel in terms of the whole process it will have to be accepted by the entire government. The member knows the strong positions that I have taken on the whole question of value for quota to attempt to minimize that.

I'v e always indicated that one can't get away from that whole area comp letely when it comes to entire unit transfers because of the, I would say, the margin of error or in terms of the evaluation process that goes on; and quite frankly even if you're 10 percent out on the evaluation of an entire farm unit, one can attribute that 10 percent to the value on quota. So I have always taken the position that there could be, and likely is, some incalculable amount that can be argued and attributable to value for quota in a unit transfer, based on the whole question of assessment.

The question in the dairy industry is one that we've struggled with, is to try and find a way and to recognize that some movement of quota - a partial movement of quota in terms of dealing with some margin of 1189 expansion and contraction in an industry - is different than it exists in the feather industry, generally.

I guess that's probably the area where I have had the most difficult time, personal ly, in recognizing that aspect that the dairy industry is somewhat different to the feather industry in that one area dealing with the need for movement of cows and the need for 20, 40, 50, 60, 100 litres in terms of one's operation and having some flexibility there. That's probably been my most difficult area of accepting some freer movement. But what the area and the final outcome will be, Mr. Chairman, the members can speculate and they can sit here for the next two months and talk about what's going to happen.

I will not engage in that whole area anymore. They've heard my own personal opinions on this whole area and until some recommendations are in and are acceptable to government, then that decision will be made, yes or no, and will either go or else we'll have another big battle over that whole question and that's where it's coming to. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, what a difference a day makes. The