April 6, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 571 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Tuesday, April 6, 1976 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] MR. SPEAKER: If the Assembly agrees to take a moment, there is a photographer in the gallery who would like to take a picture of the Assembly. I think he would like us to be reasonably immobile. head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 229 The Matrimonial Property Act MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill 229, The Matrimonial Property Act.

The purpose of the bill is to ensure that in all marriages, both lawful and common-law, all property acquired after the marriage would be considered to be jointly owned by the partners to the marriage. If a divorce were to occur, all matrimonial property would be divided equally between the couple. [Leave granted; Bill 229 introduced and read a first time] head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS MR. TESOLIN: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleas­ ure to introduce to you, and through you to members of this Assembly, some 16 ambitious 4-H Club members from Lac La Biche. They are accompanied by leaders and parents, Mrs.

Sikora, Mr. and Mrs. Phillips, Mr. and Mrs. Trefanenko, Mrs. Morton. They are seated in the public gallery, and I would ask them to rise and be recognized by this Assembly. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to introduce to you, and through you to the members of the Assembly, students from the English class of the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology. They are in the members gallery and are accompanied by their instructors, Mr. Atwal, Mr. McFarlane, Mr. Parritt, and Mr. Ramsell. Mr. Speaker, I welcome them to the Assembly and congratulate them for taking an interest in the legisla­ tive proceedings.

I hope they will not be disappointed by the type and form of English used today by the members. head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the reply to Motion for a Return No. 209, concerning a detailed breakdown of the costs of the very successful European mission. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Gasoline Retailing MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Business Development and Tour­ ism.

At what stage are negotiations among the minister's department, the Automotive Retailers' Association of Alberta, and the industry people, regarding the problem the automotive retailers have brought to the government's attention on a number of occasions, the existence of independent service sta­ tions especially in Edmonton and Calgary? MR. DOWLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier on several occasions, we have listened to the presentation of the ARA. They were afforded a meeting with the Minister of Consumer and Corpo­ rate Affairs, the Premier, and me some time ago.

We had some officials of the department at that meeting. Since that time we have discussed individually with the five major companies involved the matters they brought forward to us. At that time we indicated that we would examine the problems they indicated existed. I have since indicated that we will await the finalization of the Isbister report, presently being developed in Ontario, to determine where we should go and whether we should take any further action. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister, just so there's no misunderstanding of the government's position.

Is it now the position of the Government of Alberta that it is not going to take any action on this particular situation dealing with gasoline station operators, until the Isbister Commis­ sion has reported in Ontario? MR. DOWLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, we find it consid­ erably difficult to take any precipitous action, bearing in mind the number of things which exist in Alberta which make it fairly easy for businessmen to survive in the private enterprise system: the lowest corporate and personal income taxes, no sales tax. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed. MR.

DOWLING: We have a tremendous health scheme, an excellent educational scheme. We have. MR. SPEAKER: Possibly when we get into the fields of health and education, we have left service stations rather far behind. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Is the minister aware that between six and eight of these private service station opera­ tions in the city of Edmonton have had to announce to the company that they're going to have to close their doors, and that these decisions have been made in the last 10 days?

572 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1976 MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, I would suspect there are businesses opening and closing all over Alberta during the course of every day. I have not been apprized of any individual closures, although some people do choose to participate no longer in a particu­ lar business venture. They may decide to move into some other area which they find more successful. We know that some businessmen involved in the retailing of gasoline have decided over the past year not to remain involved.

In those cases where they have decided to leave of their own volition, the companies have in some cases given them a severance, in some cases amounting to one year of the profit of that particular operation to the former operator. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the minister, and to rephrase the ques­ tion. Is the minister's department involved in mon­ itoring weekly the number of private service station operations in Edmonton and Calgary which are having to go out of business because they simply can't make both ends meet? MR. DOWLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon.

Leader of the Opposition has said a number of things. He is indicating it is his view that these people are going out of business because they can't make both ends meet. I think he makes an assumption that may not necessarily be true. We do not monitor the number of businesses that start up or cease to function over the course of a month or a year, but some monitoring is done through the companies branch. If the hon. member wants to find out about that sort of thing, he might contact the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, just one further question to the minister.

In light of the serious situation faced by automotive retailers, is the minister prepared to give instructions to his department that there be ongoing weekly monitoring, to convince the minister what really is happening as far as small service station operations in Edmonton and Calgary are concerned? Is the minister prepared to give direction that that kind of monitoring go on in his department, starting now? MR. DOWLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, if we deem it advisable, we will most certainly do it. At the moment, we have no intention of doing it.

We are very much aware of what's happening in the market place in Alberta, as is the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. We see each other very readily, and we will continue to do as we have done in the past. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the hon. minister. During the minister's discussions with representatives of the Alberta Automotive Retailers' Association, were any warn­ ings given to the minister that, unless action were taken, a large number of service station operators in Edmonton and Calgary would in fact go broke? AN HON. MEMBER: Order. MR. NOTLEY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, let me put the question to the hon. minister. During the course of these discussions, was representation made by members of the Alberta Automotive Retailers' Asso­ ciation that the situation is in fact so serious that many service station operators at this point in time will have to go out of business unless action is taken? AN HON. MEMBER: Order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is repeating a question which I believe he asked a moment ago. I think it's necessary to remind ourselves that all answers by ministers are strictly voluntary. There is no obligation on a minister to answer a question.

Nor is there any obligation on a member to be content with the answer; but that does not give rise to any right to repeat the same question. MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, could I ask a supple­ mentary of the minister? I'd like to ask whether his department does any monitoring with regard to the markup on fuels to see whether in fact there is sufficient for them to operate in a proper manner. MR. DOWLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have consis­ tently done that through the Provincial Treasurer's office and our own.

The indications are that we do in fact maintain, with rare exceptions, the lowest tank wagon price in all of Canada, the lowest tax on that commodity in all of Canada and, on the average, the highest markup at the retail level. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the hon. minister. Has the government discussed with other oil companies the rack pricing formula that I believe Husky Oil Ltd. has announced? MR. DOWLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have dis­ cussed that with Husky.

You must, of course, realize that the Husky organization is different in its make-up than are the other four majors to which I've referred at some times. We're still in the process of examin­ ing it. Husky has not made that an overall policy as far as I've been informed to date, but their situation is slightly different from the other companies. MR. TAYLOR: A supplementary to the hon. minister. Are we complaining about the prices being too low or too high? MR. DOWLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, in a free market place you'll never catch me complaining about a free market. AN HON. MEMBER: What's a free market? DR.

BUCK: A supplementary question to the Premier. When the executive of the ARA met with the Premier and his ministers, was the seriousness of the matter brought directly to the Premier's attention? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, during the course of that discussion I think it was quite clear that there was a considerable difference of view. We, in the government, pointed out on a number of occasions that in this province they had, as the hon. minister has just answered, the lowest gasoline tax by far, and

April 6, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 573 a higher overall dealer markup than any other part of the country. They made their points of view. The government representatives responded with theirs. There was a natural difference of opinion. We said that we would follow up on it. Of course, that's what the hon. minister did. During the course of the meeting with the Automo­ tive Retailers' Association we asked them about self- serve stations.

Whether they seriously wanted the government to get involved in restricting the free choice of individual consumers to reduce their costs by using a self-service operation — was that part of the Automotive Retailers' Association position? They advised us, and I was pleased they did, that they had retracted from that position. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the . . . MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the last supplementary on this topic. MR. NOTLEY: Has the department obtained specific estimates of the dealer margin that actually exists on an average basis in both Edmonton and Calgary?

If so, what is that average? MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, at the moment that average varies considerably, bearing in mind the fact that in the city of Edmonton, at least, a bit of a price war exists. The overall average in terms of cents per gallon is still the highest in all of Canada. I'm not in a position at the moment to furnish that number but I will, of course, provide it at a future session. ECA Study — Hinton MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my second question to the Minister of the Environment.

Is the minister in a position to indicate to the House the nature of the studies the ECA is going to be doing in Hinton with regard to emission levels at the forest products plant? Has the minister authorized a full­ blown public hearing? MR. RUSSELL: It's not a public hearing the ECA is holding at Hinton, Mr. Speaker. I did discuss this matter with the chairman of the ECA, and agreed that they should do what they are now doing. I've also asked the department to co-operate fully.

A review of the situation in Hinton is being done in response to a petition received from a group of citizens to see if there are any hazards of a medical nature as the result of effluents in the air or water in the Hinton region. That is being done. MR. CLARK: A further supplementary question to the minister. Is the minister in a position to give us some sort of time frame when he expects a report from the ECA, in light of the concern for health? MR. RUSSELL: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I don't foresee it as being the kind of activity that would take a long time. The request came in last week and we've responded.

The review the petitioners asked for is already under way. MR. CLARK: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the minister. Is it the intention of the minister to make the ECA findings public when he receives them? MR. RUSSELL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that's standard procedure with the ECA. All their reports are tabled. Habitat Conference MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the hon. Premier. Will the Government of Alberta will be represented at the Habitat confer­ ence slated for May 31 to June 11 in Vancouver? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, I would refer that question to the Minister of Federal and Intergovern­ mental Affairs or the Minister of Housing and Public Works. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of both of us, initially there will be representation by various government levels in the province of Alberta. The hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works will be involved at the Vancouver conference. Perhaps he would like to say a few words as to the specific involvement. The municipalities would also be involved. MR. NOTLEY: During his estimates. MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, I'm only going to answer on behalf of myself.

I am told that I am part of a Canadian delegation, and will perform accordingly. But there will be a provincial delegation. My under­ standing is that it's under Mr. Johnston, the Minister of Municipal Affairs. He will be able to tell you more about the provincial delegation and what in fact is going on with respect to municipal activities and the various four areas of activity being worked on by a number of departments at this particular time. MR. PURDY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, could the minister add to this now? MR. JOHNSTON: I guess there's an expression about the buck stops here. Mr.

Speaker, let me say very briefly that the Alberta participation has been very active, although perhaps limited by finances. It has addressed itself to the common problems that have been focused on by the United Nations review of human settlements. Indeed, we are doing very much to establish our participation. We will be sending approximately 25 provincial delegates to this conference in late May and early June. MR. PURDY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. At this particular time, what ongoing steps is the government taking on its own in co-operation with the Habitat conference?

MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, first of all there are what we call non-governmental organizations, which would embrace such community projects as those prompted by the town of St. Paul and by some of the Indian bands, and which will have a direct influence on the Alberta position at the NGO conference, which

574 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1976 runs simultaneously with the United Nations confer­ ence in Vancouver. As well, we have developed a provincial audio­ visual exhibit which will put together some of the solutions we have found to the human settlements problems in Alberta. My department under my spe­ cial projects group will be putting together a cata­ logue of demonstration projects, which will be a permanent record of the Alberta position. Together with that, the Canadian Exhibit will be reviewed during Klondike Days in Edmonton, sometime in July. MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Munici­ pal Affairs.

Will the results of the conference be made public, or will they be used on an ongoing basis? MR. JOHNSTON: I suppose the answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is indeed both. We hope to have some short-term solutions, but from the United Nations conference — both the NGO and the United Nations position — we hope to have some longer term remedies which will be useful to us in Canada and in Alberta. DR. PAPROSKI: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Premier. I wonder if the hon. Premier would consider non-cabinet members attending this conference so they can continue to expand their horizons. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.

AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed. Edmonton Exhibition Association MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the hon. Attorney General. In view of certain interest in the city of Edmonton, have the department or officials of the department given any consideration at present to holding a judicial inquiry into the affairs of the Edmonton Exhibition board? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I don't know where the interest in this subject comes from.

The only repre­ sentation I've had on this point was — I think last summer — from a citizen of Edmonton who claimed to be part of an action committee, suggesting on behalf of it that such an inquiry be held. I like to know with whom I'm dealing, and I responded to this individual by asking him to indicate on whose behalf he was asking for this inquiry and whom he repre­ sented. As far as I know, I have not received a response, and that was many months ago. The short answer, Mr. Speaker, is that to my knowledge I have no requests for an inquiry, judicial or otherwise, into the Edmonton exhibition.

I am certainly not proposing any such inquiry. If I were even thinking of such, I would be talking to the officers of that association. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the hon. minister. Has the minister or his department initiated, or are they planning to initiate, extradition proceedings against those officials of Royal American Shows who failed to make recent court appearances for charges laid against them in Alberta? MR. FOSTER: My understanding, Mr. Speaker, is that not all of the charges against those individuals are extraditable.

But to the extent that they are, at the present time we do not intend to proceed in that manner. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the hon. Attorney General. Can the minister advise the Assembly why the department does not choose to proceed with extradition proceedings? MR. SPEAKER: I think that in view of there being court proceedings under way in this case, even though they may temporarily not be proceeding actively, we must be very circumspect about inquiring of the minister concerning this kind of information. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I could supplement the first answer given by the hon. Attor­ ney General, with regard to the question relative to judicial inquiries raised by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. The hon. members may wish to be aware of the fact that the government is reassessing the situation with regard to judicial inquiries in this province. Having regard to recent experience, the results have proven to be such that a number of innocent people have been affected both in terms of expense and by the general nature of the charge.

We are doing a reassessment whether or not there is some alternate route to legal proceedings on the one hand, and on the other, a normal departmental investigation — a judicial inquiry by some other route where the full factual disclosure may be desirable for the citizens of the province, but the impact upon innocent people being affected by such a broad-ranging charge has to be weighed in terms of civil liberty in this province. Food Poisoning MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. Minister of Social Services and Community Health. A very short explanation is necessary first.

Consumer's Research reports that the U.S. Federal Center for Disease Control has checked an outbreak of 34 cases of diarrheal illness, 17 of which were hospitalized. It has traced this illness to consumption of raw or very rare hamburgers. Since there were over 300 cases of poisoning in Alberta last year, have any cases of food poisoning been traced to eating very rare or raw hamburger? MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't have that information. I'd be pleased to check and advise the hon. member. MR. TAYLOR: A supplementary to the hon. Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

Is any monitor­ ing done of the state in which hamburgers are served at the various places in the province? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, not by my department, no.

April 6, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 575 MR. TAYLOR: I might say some are even worse than the one brought to the Legislature by the former Minister of Highways. Guaranteed Annual Income DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Social Services and Community Health. What is the Alberta government's position regarding the recently announced direction of the federal government to have a guaranteed annual income program involving all provinces? MISS HUNLEY: Mr.

Speaker, aside from meeting with the federal government and the other provinces, we're looking at that with a very cautious eye, in view of the fact that there have been some very dramatic changes in direction by the federal government lately. I think it's well that we keep that in mind when we are negotiating or discussing any future program. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion. Does the hon. minister have statistics or information to indicate whether, if we participated in such a plan, it would cost the taxpayer more or less?

MISS HUNLEY: No, but it will be one of the things that we will certainly have in mind, should we ever decide to enter into such an agreement. DR. PAPROSKI: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Does the Alberta government support a universal plan, or a selected group for guaranteed income supplementation? MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, we actually haven't taken a stand on supporting any, although we've agreed to examine a proposal from the federal government whereby there might be income supple­ mentation on a selected basis.

I think the philosophy behind it would be acceptable if all the terms are agreed to, and if we found that it would fit financially within our own priorities that those who work should be better off than those who don't. That would be our approach to negotiations with the federal government. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKER: I understood the hon. member's previous question to have been the final one. I think we should avoid a series of final supplementaries. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, thank you. Peace River Hydro-electric Potential MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Premier.

I was wondering if he could advise the Legislature when the $2 million study of the hydro potential of the Peace River will be completed. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I'm afraid I'm not in a position to answer that directly. I'd refer it to either the Minister of the Environment or the Minister of Utilities and Telephones. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, that study was arranged for by my predecessor in office some 18 months ago. We expect it will be complete about the end of May. MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister of the Environment. Have any discus­ sions taken place among your department, B.C.

Hydro, or the B.C. government in regard to the joint development of hydro on the Peace and the potential flooding of waters back into British Columbia? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, the Government of British Columbia is also carrying out studies for two possible hydro sites inside the British Columbia border. The proposal is that when all the studies are complete there will be a joint comparison of the cost benefits and the economics, the advantages and disadvantages to the citizens of both provinces. We would expect that work would be undertaken later this year. MR.

NOTLEY: A supplementary question to the hon. minister. Will the $2 million study be made public once the department receives it at the end of May? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I can't give a commit­ ment at this time with respect to that question. Certainly, we would endeavor to make as much information as we could possible. I know the reports are highly technical at this time. I'm waiting until I get the final

summary report to see if it could be distributed. Compak Foods MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Business Development and Tourism. Could the minister indicate the present status of Compak Foods Limited at Lethbridge? MR. DOWLING: Yes I can, Mr. Speaker. As I indicat­ ed in my address on the budget presentation, Compak Foods was put in receivership some time ago by the Alberta Opportunity Company. There were several reasons for this, the basic one being that there was non-payment of the loan. The firm has been advertised for sale across Canada.

A considerable number of presentations have been made to purchase the Compak Foods organization. However, my last report from the Opportunity Company indicated that none of the bids were what it considered acceptable. The matter still rests with the Opportunity Company for further action. MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate whether loans obtained by producers to have equity in the plant were guaranteed by AOC? MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that they were not. The loan was to the Compak organization, and that was as far as it went. VS Services Ltd.

Contract DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my question to the hon. Minister of Social Services and

576 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1976 Community Health. I'd like to know if the contract between the government and VS [Services Ltd.] has been signed. MISS HUNLEY: No, Mr. Speaker, it has not. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, to the Attorney General. Is the Attorney General in a position to indicate what background information has been sought in the claim that the CSA is making about the lawsuits pending with VS foods? MR. FOSTER: Mr.

Speaker, all that has come to my attention on this subject is a copy of a brief tabled in the House by one of the members opposite, I think, and a press release which was delivered to my office today, I think, before coming to the House. In the press release, the president of the Civil Service Association seems to be calling upon me to make certain inquiries. I'm a little unaccustomed to receiv­ ing that kind of invitation by press release. I have not talked personally to Mr. Broad. To my knowledge, I have not received any correspondence from him on this subject. It may be that others of my colleagues have.

I'm not aware of that at the moment. Frankly, unless I hear from Mr. Broad directly, my inclination is to write to him and suggest that I am receiving these kinds of communications asking for certain conduct on my part relative to this proposed contract. I would like to confirm whether this does represent his views. If it does, I'll be happy to respond to them. Municipal Airports MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Transportation. Perhaps a short explana­ tion would be in order. It concerns the Lethbridge airport terminal facility that was built 30 years ago to last for six months.

Because it's a federal matter, continued representation has not produced results. My question to the hon. minister, Mr. Speaker, is: does the Alberta government contemplate a policy regarding terminal facilities at municipal airports? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, we're looking at the situation particularly in regard to the Lethbridge airport, which is now operated by the federal Ministry of Transport. We've certainly supported the city of Lethbridge in its representations to the federal gov­ ernment relative to the upgrading of the Lethbridge airport.

I'll be meeting very shortly with both the MLAs for the city of Lethbridge and the mayor and some of his council relative to how we might proceed in the future. We'll also have some discussions with the major carrier out of Lethbridge, Time [Air Ltd.], relative to the improvement of the terminal. MR. GOGO: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the minister. This is perhaps of great urgency, because it concerns the safety of Albertans. As I understand it, the airport emergency service should operate in Alberta during scheduled air line time. It was brought to my attention this morning, Mr.

Speaker — and my question to the minister flows along this line — that two morning flights out of Lethbridge to Calgary and Edmonton are before the airport emergency service is in operation, that is, from the hours of 6 to 8 a.m. My question to the minister is: is it possible that the Alberta government could look into this with the federal authorities, with a view to protecting Alber­ tans and, in particular, the constituents of Lethbridge? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, I'll certainly take that up with the people in my department, and I'll have an answer for the hon. member very quickly. Gaming Regulations MR.

LITTLE: Mr. Speaker, may I address this ques­ tion to the hon. Attorney General? Mr. Speaker, while answering a question pertaining to casinos during yesterday's question period, the hon. Attorney General made reference to "an expanded investiga­ tive capacity". Would the Attorney General advise this Assembly whether he is contemplating a new investigative unit which would report to the Attorney General's Department? MR. FOSTER: Mr.

Speaker, I think I said — or if I did not, I intended to say — that the investigative capacity of the department is essentially the law enforcement agencies of the province or, in short, the police. I would expect that in this sector we'll be looking for some additional capacity in the police forces of the province. However, we'll probably also be looking for some additional capacity in the department itself. That will be investigative capacity that would com­ plement the police initiative and, in some cases, would be different from the skills they are able to bring to this problem.

First Ministers' Conference MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. It's with regard to the coming first minis­ ters' conferences. Has the Premier received the invitation or the telegrams from the first minister? If so, will the Premier again press for the $2 increase in oil? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, yes, I have received the invitation, although the date is not yet finalized as to whether it will be May 5 or May 6 in Ottawa. As far as our position is concerned, we will of course approach the discussion prepared to listen to the views of others.

But the experience of a year ago indicates the probabilities that we can find a situation where 11 governments are going to agree — the situation of producing provinces and consuming prov­ inces, and some with a mix of positions, some consuming and producing at the same time — would be something that I would think would be very diffi­ cult. We won't go with a closed mind. We'll approach the discussions in the hope that such an approach may occur.

But we feel pretty strongly that the jurisdiction, as I've mentioned on a number of occasions in this House, is divided between the producing provinces and the federal government: the producing provinces with their jurisdictional ownership over the resource; the federal government with its jurisdiction with regard to interprovincial trade and commerce.

April 6, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 577 MR. R. SPEAKER: A supplementary to the Premier. One of the other areas that we discussed earlier, I believe when the Premier was away at a special meeting, was with regard to shared-cost programs. Will these also be on the agenda? Will it be the intent of the government to retain the present cost- shared programs or potentially opt out of some of them? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, no. I was here for the responses yesterday by the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs and the Provincial Treasurer. Two meetings have been suggested by the Prime Minister.

The first one on May 5 and May 6 has to do with energy pricing. The other meeting that is being proposed for the middle of June is a meeting on shared-cost programs, as I understand it. The Provin­ cial Treasurer explained yesterday in the House and the recent finance ministers' meeting indicated that, as the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs has advised me, it would be at the June meeting that the shared-cost programs would be brought to the fore. As to the Alberta government position, I think we'd go back to where we were in November 1971 at the first first ministers' meeting.

We take the view that the better situation in Canada would be to have the provinces, with their responsibilities for health care and education, conduct their responsibilities without imposed situations by the federal government, so we would be free to establish our own priorities, to find our own quality approaches, and to reduce costs. The answer for the federal government, when you look at their jurisdiction under the British North America Act, is obviously to reduce its share of personal income tax by a transfer of personal income tax points.

If the hon. member checks the record, I think he will find on this occasion we have a position similar to our predecessors in office. Auto Insurance Infractions Sentences MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Attorney General. I wonder if the minister is in a position to advise the House whether he has had an opportunity to review the recent sentences in Medi­ cine Hat at the provincial court level, wherein persons charged with failing to carry the compulsory insur­ ance now required have been sentenced to one day in jail, rather than to pay the minimum $400 fine. MR. FOSTER: No, Mr.

Speaker, I'm completely unaware of the decision of the court in that respect. If the hon. member is suggesting that there is something out of line in the determination of the court — and I don't know the circumstances — the appropriate remedy for the Crown is, of course, to appeal the matter. If he would like me to look into that, I'd be happy to do so. Apprenticeship Training MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the hon.

Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower, and ask whether or not a memo has been sent by the chairman of the provincial Apprenti­ ceship Board suggesting that the length of apprenti­ ceship courses may be cut. DR. HOHOL: Mr. Speaker, for the information of the Assembly, the matter of the length of programs, the content, and the total circumstances in which appren­ ticeship training is delivered in Alberta is, has been, and will continue to be under constant review. I have no recollection of a specific memorandum of that kind, but that could well be. In any case, the subject is under review. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, is one of the reasons for the review the difficulty in recruiting staff at technical institutions? DR. HOHOL: No, not specifically that at all. To be more precise in my answer to the question, to the best of my recollection the review has particular reference to one trade, a trade yet to be designated under The Tradesmen's Qualification Act, and is not of general application to all the trades under The Apprenticeship Act and The Tradesmen's Qualifica­ tion Act. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question for clarification.

Can the minister advise whether there have been any difficulties either in recruiting or retaining staff in the trades at our technical institutions, bearing in mind the competitive wages in industry? DR. HOHOL: Yes, Mr. Speaker. There's no question that, like the tradespeople on site in some parts of Alberta at some times, the same factor applies to instructional staff when the requirements are two­ fold: first, the full journeyman status in the specific trade of instruction; and secondly, a year of teacher training at a recognized institution in Alberta.

Under those circumstances and with the requirements of industry in the field, there are difficulties in getting journeymen instructors in some trades for some of our vocational/technical schools. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the hon. minister. In light of the option now being considered by the Attorney General's Depart­ ment with respect to providing extra increments to government lawyers, is the Department of Advanced Education considering the same policy with respect to instructors at NAIT and SAIT in order to compete with the private sector? DR. HOHOL: No, Mr. Speaker.

But I think it's important to recollect that some years ago, when the vocational/technical agreement was signed between Ottawa and the provincial governments, part of the agreement was that the provinces would assign bursaries to tradespeople who would leave active practice in the field and go to the institutions for teacher training. Subsequently, when the market for teachers was generally filled in this area, the school boards of this province — and others as well — withdrew the bursary program.

For the information of the Assembly, a modest incentive bursary was returned to the Students Finance Act this fall and was passed under the

578 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1976 regulations. So we have this incentive to the stu­ dents, rather than to the practitioners. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, one final supplementary question to the hon. minister. Is the review now being conducted by the department considering reducing the hours of training at institutions such as NAIT and SAIT? DR. HOHOL: I'm sorry I missed the import of the question. I would simply say that the review doesn't focus solely on the length of time. When a trade is being reviewed for designation, it has to meet several criteria, one of which is length of time.

It doesn't relate to the capacity of the institutions to meet the instructional time. That simply wouldn't be fair to a trade. It isn't how we designate it. If there's no capability for instruction, it simply means fewer apprentices meet the aspirations they have. At the same time, I want to point out that 22 per cent entries for registrations is a record for 1975 and '74. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, just to clarify that . . . MR. SPEAKER: Possibly we could come back to this topic on another occasion. We have some questions waiting. I do like to respect hon. member's designa­ tions of final supplementaries.

Calgary Social Service Department MR. KUSHNER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct this question to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health. Is the minister in a position to inform the House if the negotiations in fact have been completed as far as the provincial government taking over the city of Calgary Social Services Department is concerned? MISS HUNLEY: I understand the city of Calgary has agreed to enter into the agreement which we offered all municipalities. But it has not come to my desk officially.

I'd have to check whether it's been signed through officials in my department who have that authority. MR. KUSHNER: A supplementary question. If that is so, it seems to be progressing. When it does happen, will there be a saving? I understand there has been some duplication of services. MR. SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. member, perhaps the question is to be considered hypothetical now. The question of a saving could be brought up when the matter is a fact. MR. CLARK: A supplementary question to the minis­ ter.

Is the minister in a position to indicate whether a commitment was given to the city of Calgary, in the course of negotiations between the minister's de­ partment and the city, to guarantee that the regional aspects of the program — offices being located in various regions of the city of Calgary — would continue under the minister's department? Also, was a commitment given by the government to the city of Calgary that the employment opportuni­ ties portion of that program would continue if the program was taken over by the province?

MISS HUNLEY: I can't recall exactly what type of correspondence went forward from the department. I do know that we will negotiate with the municipali­ ties. We're particularly interested that the rights and salaries of the staff will be protected if they wish to move into government employment. I'd have to check what commitments were made about regional offices. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, one further supplementary question to the minister.

I wonder if the minister would check on the question of regional offices, and on the continuation of the employment opportunity program which the city of Calgary's social welfare people have done an excellent job in developing. MISS HUNLEY: Yes, I'd be pleased to do that. But I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that we also have an employment opportunities program, with which we are very pleased, functioning out of the department at the present time. We feel that we're having good success with it as well. MR.

KUSHNER: My supplementary question to the minister is: at the time negotiations took place were any particular guidelines set that there would be no loss of jobs if the negotiation was successful? MISS HUNLEY: Yes. I just answered that question, Mr. Speaker. We did agree with the municipalities that their employees would be protected and could move into government employment if they so wished. Coal Gasification MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Energy. Is a pilot project on coal gasification being undertaken by the government? MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, there was a recommenda­ tion from the Energy Resources Conservation Board that the province proceed with a pilot project on coal gasification. There is provision in the department's budget to do that in the coming year. Assuming that budget is approved, work will on among the Energy Resources Conservation Board, the Alberta Research Council, the Department of Energy and Natural Resources, and the private sector to work out the terms of reference of the coal gasification project. MR. TAYLOR: A supplementary to the hon. minister. Will this pilot project likely take place this year? MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, it is our intention to commence the project sometime in the 1976-77 fiscal year. Airport Fees MR. McCRAE: Mr. Speaker, [inaudible] question of last week from the Member for Little Bow. The question was on the legality of a $1 increase in the user fee for passengers coming into the local munici­ pal airport. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate question period isn't the proper place for bandying legal opinions, but I wonder if I might share with the members a viewpoint I do have on that matter. It is, Mr. Speaker, that

Section 212 of The Municipal Government Act appears to

April 6, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 579 give the municipality authority to levy a charge for fees and levies for the operation of the airport. Mr. Speaker, there may be some dispute as to what in fact constitutes an appropriate fee: whether it would include a return on invested capital, or what; whether or not the municipality could in fact generate funds for general revenues. I might say, Mr. Speak­ er, it does appear that the municipality does have effective power to levy the charge they are now levying. However, there may be some who might wish to dispute that.

That would be a matter between them and the municipality. Mr. Speaker, the government does not intend to refer this question to the courts nor, to the best of my knowledge, does it intend to introduce legislation that would change the subject at this time. Industrial Relations Board Decision MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, on another matter, a question was raised yesterday by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. If the House is willing to have me go beyond the question period, I could give him an answer now. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Speaker, the question yester­ day related to what the hon. member referred to as the recent "Fuller decision" by the Board of Industrial Relations. I said at that time that I would look into it. The question was whether or not, in the light of that decision, there would be a directive to employers in the province, in particular the hospital boards, point­ ing out that it isn't proper to ask employees to go without a day's pay. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's question unco­ vered an incident which I think is extremely isolated and, in its own right, a genuine curiosity.

It seems that one of the branches of Fuller's had indeed operated for one day in December without, at that time, properly paying their employees. It was a local management decision, I'm informed, made by the local manager of that particular branch. I won't go into the reasons for it at the time, but the supervisory staff was also going to work that day without pay. The upshot of it all was that the Board of Industrial Relations itself wouldn't have that sort of thing before it as a matter for a hearing, but some of the labor standards officers of the department did learn of it.

No doubt it had been reported to them by one or more of the employees. They went back to meet with the people of that particular branch of Fuller's and caused the wages to be paid. In fairness to the company, I should say that the head office was finding out about it at the same time and instructing the local branch to do the same thing. I'm not aware of any continuing difficulty over that incident, Mr.

Speaker, and would only close by saying that when the hon. member asks if informa­ tion is going to other employers not to do the same thing, bearing in mind the laws of the province and the understanding that most of the citizens have of them, I have every confidence that that caution isn't necessary. MR. DOAN: Mr. Speaker, could I ask that we revert to introductions. MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps we might do that on Orders of the Day rather than in the question period. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition, the hon. Member for Innisfail, and the hon.

Member for Lloydminster would like to revert to Introduction of Visitors. Does the Assembly agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS (reversion) MR. DOAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce to you, and through you to the members of this Assembly, 35 students from the Delburne School Grade 10 Social Studies class. They are accom­ panied by three teachers, Mrs. Smith, Mr. Meurn, and their principal, Mr. Ricksiedler, and their bus driver, Mr. John Poffenroth. They are seated in the public gallery. I would ask them to stand and be recognized. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to introduce to you, and through you to the members of the Assembly, a man in the Speaker's gallery who in fact was a member of this Assembly for a goodly number of years, the former Minister of Health in the govern­ ment of the province of Alberta, the former Minister of Lands and Forests. I suppose the best way to describe Dr. J. Donovan Ross would be, a little man with a big heart, once you get under that red hair. So I'd like to ask Dr. J. Donovan Ross to rise and receive the recognition of the Assembly. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to introduce to you and through you to the members of the Assembly, 26 Grade 11 students from Lloydminster who are visiting us today. They are accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Abraham. They are seated in the members gallery, and I would ask that they stand and be recognized by this Assembly. head: MOTIONS FOR RETURNS MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I move that the following motions for returns stand and retain their place on the Order Paper: 130, 156, 157, and 158. [Motion carried] 129. Mr. R.

Speaker proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) subject to the concurrence of the Association of Couples for Marriage Enrichment of Edmonton, copies of all application forms, contracts, and correspondence which passed between the

580 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1976 Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and the association in respect to the grant made to the association, as documented in Sessional Paper 112/75; (2) the appropriation number from which the grant was paid. [Motion carried] 134. Dr.

Buck proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) subject to the concurrence of the Bowles' Association of Alberta, of Calgary, copies of all application forms, contracts, and correspond­ ence which passed between the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and the associa­ tion in respect to the grant made to the associa­ tion, as documented in Sessional Paper 112/75; (2) the appropriation number from which the grant was paid. [Motion carried] 135. Mr.

Clark proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) subject to the concurrence of the Klondike Grey Cup Committee of Edmonton, copies of all appli­ cation forms, contracts, and correspondence now held by the Government of Alberta, which passed between the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and the committee in respect to the grant given that organization, as documented in Sessional Paper 112/75; (2) the appropriation number from which the grant was paid. [Motion carried] 136. Mr.

Clark proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) copies of all studies commissioned by the government relating to the proposed pilot project for downtown redevelopment in Slave Lake, from September 1, 1971, to March 1, 1976; (2) the firms and/or consultants hired to prepare such reports and the fees paid or payable to each of these firms and/or consultants. [Motion carried] 137. Mr.

Clark proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) copies of all studies commissioned by the government relating to the proposed pilot project for downtown redevelopment in Lacombe, from September 1, 1971, to March 1, 1976; (2) the firms and/or consultants hired to prepare such reports and the fees paid or payable to each of these firms and/or consultants. [Motion carried] 138. Mr.

Clark proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) copies of all studies commissioned by the government relating to the proposed pilot project for downtown redevelopment in Peace River, from September 1, 1971, to March 1, 1976; (2) the firms and/or consultants hired to prepare such reports and the fees paid or payable to each of these firms and/or consultants. [Motion carried] 143. Mr.

Mandeville proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) subject to the concurrence of the Alberta Chess Association of Calgary, copies of all application forms, contracts, and correspondence which passed between the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and the association in respect to the grant made to the association, as documented in Sessional Paper 112/75; (2) the appropriation number from which the grant was paid. [Motion carried] 144. Mr. R.

Speaker proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) subject to the concurrence of the Alberta Free Balloonist Society of Calgary, copies of all appli­ cation forms, contracts, and correspondence which passed between the Department of Cul­ ture, Youth and Recreation and the society in respect to the grant made to the society, as documented in Sessional Paper 112/75; (2) the appropriation number from which the grant was paid. [Motion carried] 147. Mr.

Clark proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) subject to the concurrence of the Hungarian Youth Dancers of Calgary, copies of all applica­ tion forms, contracts, and correspondence which passed between the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and the organization in respect to the grant made to the organization, as documented in Sessional Paper 112/75; (2) the appropriation number from which the grant was paid. [Motion carried] 148. Mr.

Mandeville proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing:

April 6, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 581 A list of all export contracts which have been concluded since January 1, 1975 after the rendering of advice, information or assistance to the exporter by the Alberta Export Agency, giving the names of the principals, the commodities involved, the dollar value thereof, and the relevant dates. MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, I would recommend that all hon. members defeat this motion. We regret that we are unable to accept it for several reasons. First of all, the Export Agency is involved with Alberta companies and individuals to conclude private transactions.

The details of these transactions are privy to the principals involved, and the Export Agency or the government should not be in a position where they are asked to disclose the details of these transactions. Mr. Speaker, it's inherent in the private-enterprise or competitive-enterprise system that there are cer­ tain confidentialities that take place in the market place during the course of such things. It would be a breach of faith if the Export Agency were to divulge any of the details asked for in this order for a return. It seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that the future of the Export Agency, the successes it has had to date, and those it will obviously have in the future, are there and have been there because we have been able to build up confidence in the market place with the people who deal with us on both sides of a market, the seller and the buyer. I would hesitate, I'd be derelict in my duty if I recommended that this motion pass. One final thing, Mr. Speaker. We [will be] dealing very quickly in public accounts with the Export Agency.

Without divulging any of the principals or this kind of thing with regard to the transactions of the Export Agency, I'm sure the overall, global figures will be available if the questions are asked in that Public Accounts Committee. I would suggest that all members vote in opposition to this motion. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, in taking

part in the debate on this motion for a return, I think everyone should recognize that this motion for a return asks, first of all, for a list of all export contracts. Now this work [of] the Export Agency is paid for by public funds. It is accurate that tomorrow we will be dealing with the Export Agency in public accounts.

But if one looks at the travelling expenses the Export Agency has incurred during the last two to three years, and the kinds of activities the Export Agency has been involved in, for the life of me I can't see why any self-respecting businessman in Alberta, any Alberta company, would feel they were being infringed upon if this information, a list of all the export contracts, is made public.

Secondly, "the names of the principals, the commodities involved, the dollar value thereof . . ." To be asking for this kind of information when it relates to government expenditure — I hear the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources say, what will it do to the competition? Well, when they make use of these kinds of services they know it becomes public information. DR. BUCK: Even the bull semen. MR. CLARK: Yes, even bull semen became public information, rather begrudgingly. AN HON. MEMBER: After the fact. MR. CLARK: After the fact. So, Mr.

Speaker, when we're saying that we can't make this kind of information available because it's going to have some detrimental effect on business development and on what's really going on as far as the Export Agency is concerned, from our point of view it really looks like the reason the minister doesn't want this information made available is that it would then be pretty clear how successful or unsuc­ cessful the Export Agency has been. I can't see why we can't make this information public. For the minister to say, we're going to discuss the Export Agency tomorrow — I'm sure, Mr.

Speak­ er, that if we were to let him off the hook today, when we get into public accounts tomorrow he wouldn't be giving us any more of this kind of information. Candidly, Mr. Speaker, if we're going to have an examination of the Export Agency to know in fact what's going on, to be able to see the kinds of activities [it's] involved in, I'd be very interested in hearing from anyone on the government side just how this kind of information is going to hurt the competitive situation of Alberta companies.

If in fact there are one or two situations that were to fit in that category, the minister could have come to the person moving the motion today, and we would have been pleased to make some exceptions along that line. But to simply say we're going to have a carte blanche, bring the curtain down, and in fact not make any of the information available, Mr. Speaker, is a sad commentary with regard to open government. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I seem to recollect a debate somewhat similar to this, I believe it was in 1973, over whether or not the loans from the Alberta Opportunity Company would be made public.

All the arguments we heard today from the hon. minister were presented then. But in thinking better of the situation, Mr. Speaker, the government changed its course on that one. I respectfully suggest that it reassess its position on this motion for a return, too. There may be rare exceptions when the release of information could prejudice the competitive position of the company. If that's true, then as the hon. Leader of the Opposition has properly pointed out, it should [be] incumbent upon the minister to come to the member requesting the information and suggest that there be certain exceptions. Mr.

Speaker, I don't believe that exceptions prove the rule. In my judgment, most of the information requested in this motion for a return is necessary if members of this House are to make a sensible evaluation of the operation of the Alberta Export Agency. Mr. Speaker, it isn't good enough to slam the door and simply say "confidentiality". That isn't good enough, Mr. Speaker. Even when the minister presented the argument, he didn't present any reasonable explanation as to why that confidentiality would be seriously hindered if this motion for a return were passed. Mr. Speaker, we're not asking about patents.

582 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1976 We're not asking about the specifics of product formation. The kind of information requested in this motion for a return is consistent with this Legislature knowing what is going on. Mr. Speaker, it isn't good enough to come in and say, we'll have a general discussion on the situation at a public accounts meeting, when in order to make sense of the general discussion we have to know the specifics, or at least enough of the specifics to be able to make a sensible evaluation. Mr.

Speaker, I believe the motion for a return is reasonable and certainly consistent with open gov­ ernment. I hope the members will pass it. MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I'd just like to make a few brief comments, particularly with regard to that area of the Alberta Export Agency that has been involved in agricultural exports from this province. First of all, after listening to the debate, it doesn't take very long to understand which members of this Assembly are acquainted with normal business prac­ tices. Mr.

Speaker, surely the Leader of the Opposi­ tion should be aware that in Alberta there are half a dozen meat processors, half a dozen seed companies, a variety of people in the forest industry, and a number of manufacturers.

If every time one of those companies or individuals called — by letter, tele­ phone, or whatever — on the Alberta Export Agency for advice, information, or assistance which might be in the nature of inquiring about tariffs, freight rates, or some other thing — if the Alberta Export Agency, through the minister, were then to make public all the relevant details, which obviously the Export Agency may not even have, with regard to the commodities involved . . . MR. NOTLEY: Contracts. Just contracts. MR.

MOORE: . . . the dollar value thereof, and the relevant dates, it would put those companies in a very, very poor competitive position within the prov­ ince. Not only within the province; people in similar lines of business throughout Canada would then have all the information about their business available to them. If the hon. member who proposed the motion has worded it wrongly and doesn't want what's asked for, that's a different matter.

But what's asked for is simply information that would put the Export Agency in a position of not having any confidence whatsoever in terms of the public it is supposed to serve in this province. Mr. Speaker, I would urge, as the Minister of Business Development and Tourism indicated, that it be defeated. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to say we've heard nothing but nonsense from both ministers on this particular item. I'm sure if any other one can stand up, he'll give us the same kind of nonsense.

The Minister of Energy has sat here and chuckled away for a whole session, rested quietly in his chair, and hasn't got up and entered any of the debates. MR. GETTY: Ask me a question. MR. R. SPEAKER: We want to hear him today if he has something to say about this particular thing. He wants us to ask him a question. Tomorrow I'll certainly look after that aspect. MR. NOTLEY: He's shy in public. MR. R. SPEAKER: Shy in public. That's right. But I think the real crux of the issue that we've got . MR. CLARK: He operates better behind closed doors. MR. R. SPEAKER: You're right.

Off the balcony, in the back room, government and business sort of co-operate and co-ordinate. That's what I want to talk about in regard to this resolution. That's what we're asking about here. The fact is that this government has been so expansionary in the last four or five years that it has forced private enterprise — and two ministers got up and said, we have to respect the private sector's procedures. That's right. But when you allow a government to expand to a place where the only place these private sectors seem to be able to come to get funds is government, what do you expect?

They have to come, and then we have to protect them. I think part of the public-private partnership is the thing we are talking about. MR. CLARK: Public information. MR. R. SPEAKER: If we're going to put public funds into the private sector, at that point in time we as legislators must know what public money is being given to the private sector and what the relationship is between the public sector and the private sector, so we can examine it and be responsible to all Albertans. That's what this thing is all about. It's a deeper thing than just the little cursory review the two ministers gave it.

The examination they gave is totally unfair. That's why I'm concerned about this thing. Look what it says in the resolution. Two of our members have already referred to it: "export con­ tracts which have been concluded". Which have been concluded. MR. MOORE: What export contracts? MR. R. SPEAKER: Well, maybe there are none. If there are none, then say "none". All the return has to say is, "none are concluded." If they are ongoing, just say they are ongoing. That's all we ask. There are two or three other parts to the resolution.

If there is some data the minister cannot provide for us in this Assembly, why doesn't he speak to the point? He generalizes right across the resolution and says, I don't want to give them anything; we've got a great deal going with all these private companies. We over here don't have to know that kind of thing because we don't know that much about business anyway. That was the reference of the Minister of Agriculture. [interjections] That might be right too. But we can all prove ourselves in the market place. Anybody who wants to get out of politics, go out and get yourself an enterprise. The point is, Mr.

Speaker, there is public money. The government has been expansionary. It's hard for

April 6, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 583 a private business to avoid public money at the present time. They're involved. As an opposition we have the responsibility to examine those expendi­ tures, review them, and make a judgment as to whether they are right or wrong. All we're asking for at this time is the information to do that. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, may I add to the observa­ tions which have been made in this House regarding export contracts.

May I take as an example an export contract which may be negotiated between the Alberta honey co-op, a company in Japan, a company from eastern Canada called Billy Bee, and again, maybe the same company in Japan. If you were to ask to have this export contract tabled in the House, if that was the competi­ tion of this company, you would then be able to find out the prices for which the negotiations have been held and thereby underbid this export contract the next time it comes around.

Whether this is honey, sulphur, fertilizer, or machinery, let's say, needed in Indonesia for the development of their oil production — be it non- explosive contact motors or whatever they are — in any case, if I were an exporter in this province knowing that on some future date I would be [subject] to having my negotiations and contracts tabled in the House, I could not possibly agree to even phone the Alberta Export Agency to ask them whether a certain mileage charge or a charge for f.o.b. contracts is interpreted differently in Indonesia than it would be as far as the consulate of another country is concerned.

Mr. Speaker, I think another addition should be made to this one. I think we should really be concerned about what the Alberta Export Agency is, what in general are we doing in the province of Alberta to promote the export business? In other words, what is the percentage of the cost of the Alberta Export Agency compared to the export busi­ ness now, as compared to export business in the year 1970? I think by that we can probably then determine what the value of the Alberta Export Agency really was. DR. BUCK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, following the minister of unsolicited grants, I would like to say that there has been the exact opposite. [interjections] Well, all the hon. members have to do is look at the Order Paper and find out some of the phony grants that have been given out, then they can hiss. And they can hiss in public. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member from . . . DR. BUCK: Clover Bar. MR. SCHMID: . . . I should say Fort Saskatchewan . . . DR. BUCK: Clover Bar. MR.

SCHMID: . . . consistently uses this House, I think, for making statements he doesn't dare to repeat outside the House because of charges that would be laid against him, which he has done only two weeks ago. One, just one, what he calls "phony" grant, just one, excepting the one that was applied for by a member of the news media — I would like him to state just one phony grant that was made, excepting the one that was made by a member of the media. MR. CLARK: What about the ball team you financed last summer in Edmonton? MR. SCHMID: Well, let him state one grant that was phony, excepting the one. MR.

CLARK: The financing of the ball team. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, what we're trying to do . . . For $6 million I could buy a lot of votes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, [inaudible] that statement. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, sit down. AN HON. MEMBER: Quiet, Walter. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to speak . . . [interjections] Mr. Speaker, I will not sit down for any member of that lousy government at any time . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. AN HON. MEMBER: Apologize. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. member has just made a statement in which he referred to being able to buy votes for $6 million.

I would ask the hon. member to consider that statement fully and careful­ ly, and to consider whether he would like to make some explanation of it. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, if you'd like me to withdraw the statement that $6 million buys a lot of votes, I will do so. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, I would like to have the privilege of expressing my view in this House in the debate on Motion 148. AN HON. MEMBER: Speak to the debate. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to inform the hon.

Minister of Government Services that if the hon. minister would like to go through the Order Paper and look at some of the rather peculiar grants that have been handed out through the hon. minister's former department, I think maybe he would find that very interesting reading. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege, the hon. member is maligning organizations in this province . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. We are dealing here with Motion No. 148. I apologize for interrupting the hon. minister on a point of privilege.

Perhaps I may be anticipating too much, but I would respectfully suggest that if there is going to be a discussion concerning the appropriateness or other­

584 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1976 wise of any grants at all, that must be done either in the debate on the estimates, or under a proper notice put on the Order Paper, for which all hon. members may then adequately prepare themselves for discus­ sion, rather than to have the matter introduced obliquely in a debate on a completely different topic. I would therefore respectfully suggest that if there is to be any further debate concerning Motion No. 149, it be confined to whether or not the requested informa­ tion should be given, because that is in fact the essential point of the motion. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, the motion in question is Motion No. 148. You said 149, but the motion is No. 148. MR. SPEAKER: Right. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the hon. Minister of Agriculture that if the minister would anticipate what unfair advantage a company which is receiving government assistance would have over another competitor, possibly that information should be made available and should be made public. But really, all this return is asking for is a list of export contracts which have been concluded. MR. GETTY: With who? DR. BUCK: When you sign a contract, Mr.

Minister, that contract is signed, it's a fait accompli. Therefore the thing is ongoing, Mr. Speaker, and the deal has been consummated. So the minister doesn't have to get so exercised about that. Mr. Speaker, what we're really trying to find out is: does this Export Agency do the job it set out to do, and is the taxpayers' money being wisely spent or not? That's what we want to know. Mr.

Speaker, if we're to sit in this Assembly and not do our job of finding out if the taxpayers' money is being properly spent, then we might just as well all get that rubber stamp — that side and this side — just stamp everything, pick up our pay cheques, and go home. MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I just thought I would ask the hon. members, when they get this sort of false indignation which they like to express every now and then, if they really were prepared for the debate today. Normally I would expect, at least from the hon. member Mr. Speaker, a little bit better than that.

I suspect some of the others, too, felt that perhaps they should get into something they really hadn't thought too much about. But if we're going to talk about expenditure of public funds, perhaps we should wonder about the public funds that are going to the opposition. MR. NOTLEY: What's that got to do with it? MR. GETTY: To have them prepare such a sloppy motion for a return, Mr.

Speaker, which in fact looks to me totally impossible to answer — if you take a look at it, it's "a list of all export contracts which have been concluded" — well, with whom? — "since January 1, 1975 after the rendering of advice . . . by the Alberta Export Agency". Well, who would know that? DR. BUCK: The Export Agency. MR. GETTY: I mean, if someone asks the Export Agency for advice, fine; they give it to them. But who knows whether they go and enter into a contract with anybody? They don't say anything about what the contract's all about.

They could have been entering into a contract for the rent of their building, for crying out loud. Now, Mr. Speaker, the silly part of this is that they've got up and argued about it without even knowing what they've placed before the House. Once one of these is approved, the House has a responsibil­ ity to do everything possible to answer it. To me, if we're going to worry about the expendi­ ture of public funds, it's the $250,000 or so that the opposition is getting, and then they keep coming up with these sloppy, ridiculous motions for returns. MR. CLARK: President Nixon couldn't have said it better himself.

MR. GETTY: I've been on the other side myself, Mr. Speaker, and I know what the hon. members are trying to do. They're trying to get information. But surely they have a responsibility to the House to do a little bit more thinking, a little bit better planning, and bring before this House reasonable, well-intentioned, respectable motions for returns, and not this sloppy mess we see here. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, the hon. minister says "well-intentioned". I would like him to withdraw that statement, because that motion was well-intentioned. [interjections] MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, it's obvious that the point of my message is getting home. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to say a word or two on the resolution. If the resolution said, "list of all export contracts which have been concluded since January 1, 1975" and stopped there, I think I could support the resolution, because I would know exactly what it was asking for. But it doesn't stop there. It says, "a list of all export contracts . . . after the rendering of advice". Now if the minister did not render any advice, and left those contracts out, there would be a proper complaint.

But that's what the resolution says: "after the rendering of advice". So if anybody analyses this from a grammatical point of view, any contract concluded without the rendering of advice would not be included. I'm simply analysing it as a simple English-language structure. "A list of all export contracts . . . after the rendering of . . . information" — if no information was rendered, and a contract was concluded, the minister could not include it in this list.

Do we want a list of all the export contracts, or do we want a list of just those that were completed after advice was rendered or after information was given? The next one is even worse — "after the rendering of . . . assistance to the exporter". What type of assistance — verbal assistance, legal assistance, agricultural assistance? There must be a million kinds of assistance, but if assistance of any kind was not given, the list of contracts could not include that particular contract. Mr. Speaker, the way the resolu­

April 6, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 585 tion is worded makes it almost impossible for anybody to support it. I wouldn't mind having a list of all export contracts which have been concluded since January 1, 1975. But if I'm going to get the list, I would like it to be complete, not limited by these three items of a subordinate nature, grammatically speaking, where the contracts listed will only include those who got advice or to whom information or assistance was given. Now the next part bothers me a great deal.

It bothered me in 1955, when the then Leader of the Opposition — the Liberal opposition at the time — wanted the names of all members of the Legislature who dealt with the treasury branch. At that time, I dealt with the treasury branch. I hadn't borrowed any money from the treasury branch, I had never asked for any particular preference from the treasury branch, but I dealt with the treasury branch.

When that was asked, I made up my mind that if my name were going to be spread on the Order Paper and in the newspapers saying that I had so much money in an account in the treasury branch — it wasn't that much, it was a relatively small amount — then I wasn't going to take a chance in dealing with the treasury branch any more. So, Mr. Speaker, I withdrew my account from the treasury branch. Because that danger from the opposition still hangs over the heads of the members, I have not gone back to the treasury branch, much as I want to. I would like to deal with the treasury branch.

But if there is any chance of some government some day acceding to a resolution like this and giving my name, the amount of money I borrowed if any, the amount of money I have on account if any, to the general public, then I'm not going to take a chance and deal with the treasury branch. It's that simple. Hundreds of other people are going to do the same thing. Now surely, if we don't want to nail the Alberta Export Agency — the hon. members can giggle all right, but let them answer the points I'm raising.

They can giggle like little kids, but let them tell me where this resolution . . . what I'm saying about this resolution . . . MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker . . . MR. TAYLOR: . . . is not correct. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the hon. member is alleging we are giggling about what he is saying. That is absolutely untrue. Our discussion here was about something totally different from what the hon. member is . . . and that's wrong. MR. TAYLOR: I accept that, Mr. Speaker. I thought that instead of giggling, the hon. members would be listening to the arguments. That's why we're in the Legislature.

MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. It's very easy to sit and talk about one subject here, listen to the other at the same time, and understand both. MR. TAYLOR: Well I'm glad, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is so versatile. I think most people can do one thing at a time, but I didn't know they could do three or four things at a time. Maybe that's the reason they don't do any of them well. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that if we don't want an Alberta Export Agency, we can move for the deletion in the proper place, in this Legislature.

But if we're going to expect that agency to do a job, to get our markets in various parts of the world, then we shouldn't be hounding them with this type of thing. So, Mr. Speaker, as far as I'm concerned, I cannot support this resolution, because in my view the group that moved it doesn't really know what it's after. MR. SPEAKER: May the hon. member conclude the debate? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. MANDEVILLE: [Inaudible] debate on Motion 148. I usually don't get involved in this type of harassment. I really didn't intend to. I appreciate the minister's comments on the resolution.

I do believe very strong­ ly in sanctity of contract in any manner. I was asking for contracts that were concluded — if there are some real reasons, I would certainly give up and not want this to be made public. However, we do get inquiries from different people. One example was that we had some people getting in touch with us from the Export Agency. There were some people here from Ger­ many wanting to buy some cattle, and they indicated that we didn't have any cattle available.

In some of these areas, if we had this information we'd be able to divulge it to the people who are concerned with this type of Export Agency we have in the province of Alberta, which I think is doing a reasonably good job. I would just like to say that we spent more time, Mr. Speaker, on the wording of this particular motion. I'm going to be the first one in this House to say that I'm not a professional in trying to word a particular resolution. So I went to the trouble to get Mr. Amerongen, our very capable Speaker, and Mr. Clegg to help me word the resolution to bring it before the House. MR.

NOTLEY: Ho, ho, ho, Getty. Shame on you. MR. MANDEVILLE: I can recall last fall when the legislation of the hon. Minister of Energy and Natural Resources came in. We had amendment after amendment on The Natural Gas Pricing Agreement Act, which . . . AN HON. MEMBER: He needs more research, Fred. MR. CLARK: [Inaudible] and he asked to pass them on the same day too. MR. MANDEVILLE: However, I apologize if the word­ ing of the motion wasn't right. But it's clear what I wanted. I wanted the contracts that were concluded.

If any information was pending, I didn't want that type of information that would cause any contracts not to be concluded. This particular resolution was asking for only the contracts that were concluded. [Mr. Speaker declared the motion carried. Several members rose calling for a division. The division bell was rung]

586 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1976 MR. SPEAKER: In case I was heard to say that the motion was carried, I think it's obvious to all hon. members that I intended to say and should have said that it was defeated. However, that will now await the outcome of the division. [Three minutes having elapsed, the House divided as follows: For the motion: Buck Clark Mandeville Notley Speaker, R.

Against the motion: Adair Hansen Paproski Appleby Harle Planche Ashton Hohol Purdy Backus Horner Russell Batiuk Horsman Schmid Bogle Hunley Schmidt Bradley Hyland Shaben Butler Hyndman Stewart Chambers Jamison Stromberg Chichak Johnston Taylor Cookson Kidd Tesolin Crawford Koziak Thompson Diachuk Kroeger Topolnisky Doan Kushner Trynchy Donnelly Leitch Walker Dowling Little Warrack Farran Lysons Webber Fluker McCrimmon Wolstenholme Getty Miller Young Ghitter Moore Zander Gogo Musgreave Totals: Ayes - 5 Noes - 62] [Motion lost] 150. Dr.

Buck proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) copies of all application forms, contracts, and correspondence now held by the Government of Alberta which passed between the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and the Drag Racing Association of Medicine Hat in respect to the grant given to that organization as docu­ mented in Sessional Paper 112/75; (2) the appropriation number from which the grant was paid. [Motion carried] 152. Mr.

Clark proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: Copies of all correspondence between the Solicitor General of Alberta and the Solicitor General and/or Attorney General of Canada with respect to Bill C-83,

An Act for the Better Protection of Canadian Society against Perpetrators of Violent and Other Crime. MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move a small amendment to this motion, just a small addition. After the word "Crime" at the end of the motion, add the words "subject to the concurrence of the Solicitor General for Canada and the Minister of Justice for Canada". [Motion carried] 153. Mr.

Mandeville proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) subject to the concurrence of the Misty Ridge Ski Club of Barrhead, copies of all application forms, contracts, and correspondence which passed between the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and the club in respect to the grant made to the club, as documented in Sessional Paper 112/75; (2) the appropriation number from which the grant was paid. [Motion carried] 154. Mr. R.

Speaker proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) subject to the concurrence of the South Central High School Group of Oyen, copies of all applica­ tion forms, contracts, and correspondence which passed between the Department of Culture, Youth and Recreation and the organization in respect to the grant made to the organization, as documented in Sessional Paper 112/75; (2) the appropriation number from which the grant was paid. [Motion carried] 155. Mr.

Taylor proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) how many inmates in each of the following correctional institutions: Fort Saskatchewan Correctional Institution, Spy Hill Correctional Institution, Lethbridge Correctional Institution, Peace River Correctional Institution were (

a) under the age of 18 years, (

b) between the ages of 18 and 25, (

c) over the age of 60 as at December 31, 1975; (2) how many of the inmates in each of the institu­ tions in the 25 years and under categories had been in prison (

a) once before, (

b) twice before, (

c) three times or more before; (3) the average cost per inmate per day in each of the institutions. MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make a small amendment to this motion. I have copies here for you.

April 6, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 587 As to paragraph 2, the motion should read: "how many of the inmates in Calgary Correctional Institu­ tion and Lethbridge Correctional Institution in the 25 years and under categories . . .", and so on. Just for those two institutions. The last paragraph: "The average cost per inmate per day in each of the institutions for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1975." The reason for the amendment, Mr. Speaker, is that only this year, with the estimates now before the House, will we be able to develop a sophisticated inmate profile capability.

Over the last year, we've only been able to go on spot checks at various states in the institutions. For paragraph 2, we only have the information available for Calgary and Lethbridge. [Motion carried] 159. Mr. Clark proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: A copy of the report done by Price Waterhouse Associates for the Government of Alberta on the surveys and mapping divisions of government departments. [Motion carried] 160. Dr.

Buck proposed the following motion to the Assembly: That an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: An itemized statement of the cost of holding the Municipal and School Boundaries Advisory Commit­ tee hearing in Consort on March 4, 1976, including: (1) the cost of the rental of the Sportex Hall in Consort; (2) the cost of transporting all provincial govern­ ment employees and members of the Municipal and School Boundaries Advisory Committee to and from Consort; (3) the cost of transporting MLAs Henry Kroeger, J.E. Butler, Charles Stewart, and Hon. Dallas W.

Schmidt to and from Consort; (4) the cost of advertising the hearing; (5) the cost of transcribing the proceedings of the hearing. [Motion carried] [Mr. Speaker left the Chair] MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would ask the government . . . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member will have to get unanimous consent to put the Speaker back in the Chair, because at the moment I'm not here. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, perhaps with unanimous consent I could do that. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] MR.

NOTLEY: I'd like to ask the Government House Leader what the intention of the government is with respect to Tuesday afternoon business under Gov­ ernment Designated Business. We're going into committee at this stage. To what extent will we be debating those government members' motions which would ordinarily come up at this time? Are we going to be looking at estimates from now until the end of the session? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, that depends very much on how the business of the Assembly moves along in the course of the weeks ahead.

Last week, a motion proposed by a government member was suggested on Friday by the government whip, pur­ suant to the notice required for today. The notice given last Friday was for the Government Designated Business to be Committee of Supply. On another occasion it could be Committee of the Whole on bills. So the item chosen would depend on the manner and the flow of the various government business in the Assembly. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to say a word or two on the point of order. It seems to me this is going to take time away from private members' resolutions.

There's certainly not very much time now in each week, when you come to think about it. I can see this if we're getting close to the end of a session, but there's a great number of resolutions on the Order Paper. It appears to me that, doing two a week, we're not even going to get a chance to debate some of them. I really think private members' day has some signi­ ficance and some importance. I would ask the government to take a pretty careful look at whether or not it wants to reduce the amount of time already allotted for private members' resolutions. Personally, I think it's inadvisable. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps I could mention that my information is that the general approach to Government Designated Business on Tuesday, certainly during the early part or till the middle of most sessions, would be that it would be for the designation and debate of motions moved by government members. However, as has happened today, bearing in mind that the agriculture estimates took one full week, the government members felt they wished to proceed with Committee of Supply.

On the question of private members' time, I under­ stand this Assembly probably has the largest amount of time in terms of hours devoted to private members' business of any in Canada, the 10 provinces and Parliament. However, I will bear in mind the comments by the Member for Drumheller. It's to be remembered that the temporary motion under which this House is now acting is sessional only, and will expire at the end of this second session. At that time we might well wish to consider the various submissions of the members as to how the rule has worked and what ways it could be improved. [Mr.

Speaker left the Chair]

588 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1976 head: GOVERNMENT DESIGNATED BUSINESS (Committee of Supply) [Dr. McCrimmon in the Chair] MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee of Supply will now come to order. Department of the Solicitor General MR. CHAIRMAN: Last day we were having general questions to the hon. minister. Are there any further questions of a general nature to the hon. minister at this time? If not, Mr. Minister. MR. FARRAN: Mr. Chairman, would you like me to conclude the debate on the title and

preamble, then go on estimate by estimate? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I would. MR. FARRAN: Mr. Chairman, the first points were made by the hon. Member for Drumheller. He made the point about the tremendous costs of the adminis­ tration of justice and the Criminal Code that fall upon the province, even though the laws are made by the federal government. This is very true across the country.

A position has been made by all provincial Attorneys General and Solicitors General that in this area of social service, the federal government is not pulling its weight and should be paying more of the costs of the courts, of legal aid, and of the service departments for the courts, such as the Department of the Solicitor General which provides a correctional institution. By agreement, the federal government does pay for the very small number of convicted federal prisoners who are housed in our correctional institutions.

The next point the hon. member made was that he didn't think there was enough actual correction going on within the institutions. He referred to a case from his own riding of which I am well aware, having also spoken to the father. Of course, it's not easy to communicate to the public at large that what they're running in a correctional institution is not a Sunday school. To have parent involvement in the way that parents can be involved in the education system is not always possible.

The person who the hon. member thought had led his constituent's son astray being housed in the same cell — well, that really was not accurate, because only in Fort Saskatchewan are there two to a cell. In Spy Hill, he might well have been in the same dormitory or in the same cell block, but he wouldn't have been in the same cell. However, he was eventually transferred to one of the bush camps, which I believe proved to be satisfactory for his rehabilitation.

The member also referred to the possibility of citizens' councils taking some activity in the correc­ tional field, as they do in some jurisdictions in Europe. It is my hope that once the pilot restitution program in Calgary has proved itself, we can set up lay restitution councils throughout the province. Of course, these can only be additional options to the judges at time of sentence, and the courts will not use these options unless they have complete faith in their ability to follow through. But it is a good thought from the hon.

Member for Drumheller, and I'll bear it in mind as soon as we've ironed out some of the teething troubles from the existing pilot restitu­ tion project in Calgary. The hon. member talked about recidivism and repeaters.

From reports I have seen from both our own correctional institutions and ones elsewhere in the continent, it's my understanding that up to 70 per cent of the inmates of correctional institutions are repeaters who've had a previous criminal record, and that generally the rate of recidivism has remained constant at somewhere around 60 per cent, whatever method one uses, whether it's the hard line or the soft line.

However, I don't accept this as any excuse for not continuing to try to rehabilitate, because even a small movement of just a few percentage points — if you could reduce it to say 56 per cent instead of 60 per cent — would be of immeasurable benefit to the public at large. My own conviction is that there is a limit to how much good can be achieved by straight counselling. An enormous amount of counselling goes on in our province at the present time. Children are counselled in school, counselled by child welfare workers, counselled by social workers — they're almost counselled into oblivion.

We have endless counsel­ ling in the correctional institutions too. We have social workers, life skill workers, all joined. Some of these offenders have been counselled endlessly since they were juveniles, since they were perhaps 12 years old. I think that if we can swing the pendulum a little bit towards greater activity, there might be more therapeutic value in action, outdoor exercise, and vocational training than in the constant paternal advice.

Prisoner profiles: as I explained in moving the amendment to the hon. member's motion for a return, to date we've only had limited capability to give the detailed statistics about inmates that that motion called for. But we have provision in the budget for developing a greater capability in this regard. The hon. member pointed to the first progress report from the pilot restitution project in Calgary, pointing to a few problems.

The problems they point to are, first of all, that when you're fixing up an agreement on restitution between the victim and the offender, prior to appearance in the court, there may be considered to be a tacit admission of guilt. So some of the defence counsels are tending to advise their clients not to enter into a restitution contract, because they then perhaps lose their chance of acquittal on some technicality. This is a problem we'll have to surmount by consultation among the Crown prosecutors, the judges, the defence counsel, the offenders, and the victims themselves.

I hope that won't prove to be an insurmountable barrier. The other problem they've encountered is that no contract under our system is valid if it's made under duress. So they must be very careful not to insinuate to the offender that he is going to get some special consideration from the judge and therefore might be well advised to sign the contract. This may be so; there may be some sort of unwritten understanding that this is so, but they can't use it to persuade someone to sign a contract. Also, in our system there's an antipathy to the plea bargaining that goes on in the United States.

So the restitution contracts

April 6, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 589 cannot smack of plea bargaining. However, I think most of those are minor objec­ tions. By and large I'm satisfied with the progress of the pilot project. If the judges have faith in it, perhaps it will save some offenders charged with minor offences from incarceration. Apart from protecting society in the case of violent criminals, I don't believe that the actual imprisonment of someone really does much good in terms of rehabilitation. It may be a deterrent and a warning to others, but I don't know that it has all that much corrective value.

If a judge will take into account a restitution contract regarded as a consent judgment, in lieu of sending the offender to prison, I think usually more will be achieved, if our own structure is strong enough to follow up to make sure the contract is enforced. Of course, if the contracts are not enforced, some of the judges won't have faith in the idea at all. The second phase of this fine-option program, now being instituted in Edmonton, doesn't have any of these objections that the restitution move has, because work-for-fine is after sentence.

The judge has delivered his verdict and it's a question of trying to help the convict pay his fine within the time the judge has allowed, to avoid going to prison. The hon. Member for Clover Bar, who's not here today, made one or two very inaccurate statements which obviously prove his memory is short. He was accusing the present government of certain actions which were carried out by the former government. He wanted to know why this government had moved young offenders from Bowden. Actually the young offenders were moved from Bowden by the former government.

When this government assumed office, Bowden was already a regular correctional institution with inmates of all ages. The institution was in a bad state of repair. It would have required in excess of $2 million to put it in shape. It was in a poor location for young offenders should we have decided to turn the clock back to the situation as it was before the decision was made in 1969-70. It was too remote from the cities of Calgary and Edmonton, from which most of the offenders came, and therefore reduced the prospects of family visits and support from the educational and social services generally.

There were not so many vocational schools and this type of thing to which they could go. So the decision was made to sell this institution to the federal authorities. It's now being run as a medium-security institution, and of course like all others it's still housing people of comparatively tender years, like all our institutions. The majority of the inmates will be under the age of 25.

The hon. member talked about the appointment of the director at Fort Saskatchewan Correctional Insti­ tution, wanting to know just why we had delayed in appointing a director from the 20 applicants who responded to the competition. Just to assure the hon. members that is not an easy exercise or a very popular job — I think I was rapped over the knuckles for saying a few weeks ago that it was something like being made captain of the Titanic. I should have said it was more like being made leader of the Social Credit party.

I'd just like to point out the history of previous wardens at Fort Saskatchewan, how many there have been. It's been a long tale of woe. I'll go back to the appointment in March 1959 of Mr. Holt. He lasted till November 1962. From November 1962 to October 1963, a Mr. Henderson was warden. From October 1963 to November 1967, Mr. Wilson was warden. From November '67 to April '68, Mr. Jackson was warden. From April '68 to June '72, a Mr. Noel was warden. From June '72 until August '72, a Mr. Lake was warden. From August '72 to December 1973, a Mr. Desrochers was warden. From December '73 to September '74, Mr.

Lake was back in the job as warden. Mr. MacDonald was the warden from September '74 to February 1975, and as of February 1975, Mr. Anderson was appointed and is still in the position. You see there have been a large number of directors of that institution in a comparatively short duration over the years, and I'm not surprised. The hon. Member for Clover Bar also talked about the deployment of the RCMP. Last year the province of Alberta asked for an extra 125 constables. At one time the federal authorities were saying we would be lucky if we got 26.

We finally ended up with an allotment of 70, which was not bad in light of the practice across the country in respect of other prov­ inces, which also didn't get their allotments filled. So in deploying the mounted police, the assistant commissioner in charge of K Division and I have to take into account the fact that they're thinly spread over a wide area and have to be used with a maximum effectiveness. It's not possible to have a detachment in every small town and every village. We just haven't got the men, and I don't believe that in terms of economics or sensible control it would be advisable.

One has to have an NCO in charge of younger constables to some degree, if discipline and proper activity are to be ensured. I believe we are getting the best benefit we possibly can out of the comparatively undermanned force. The force is being held to a population ratio of one uniformed policeman to every 800 people. The hon. member talked about Check Stop outside drinking establishments, and I will discuss this possi­ ble tactic with the various chiefs of police. He was obviously under the impression that the Check Stop budget paid for the activities of the police on the ground.

Actually, the $250,000 in this budget is for the advertising and educational back-up to the actual work done by the police forces in the field. It has been reduced by $50,000 this year, because we have already carried out some of the television production during the current year, and we won't have to produce more shows. We have enough now in our library to be able to intersperse the little trailers that we've already got in our library. The same applies to the displays for newspaper advertising. The hon. member talked about an alleged nervou­ sness among the townspeople of Fort Saskatchewan.

I've had very amicable correspondence with the mayor and his council, and I don't think there's any problem. On the one hand, the mayor is naturally apprehensive for his people in the event of dangerous criminals escaping from the maximum security wing of the institution. So he wants better protection in that regard. On the other hand, he would like a more aesthetic fence. So the compromise is that the new perimeter fence will be built behind the ornamental hedge. There has to be some degree of compromise between the two views of making it safe and making it pretty,

590 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1976 and I believe I have achieved this to the satisfaction of the mayor. I don't know if I've achieved it to the satisfaction of the hon. member who also wants both things. He wants it to be secure with a fence, because he complains, perhaps rightly, about the number of escapes. At the same time, he still wants to keep the open atmosphere of a minimum security institution with beautiful open gardens and no peri­ meter fence. So I think we'll strike an acceptable compromise.

Day parole: the hon. member suggested that there were some jobs going in the fertilizer plant in Fort Saskatchewan. I'm happy to hear that, and I will get our corrections people to follow this up. We're always anxious to find employment for inmates at the conclusion of their sentences or while on parole. I think gainful employment and regular work habits may well keep them on the straight and narrow path and return them to a useful role as citizens in our society. Employment is one of the keys to successful probation and parole. The hon. member talked about the highway patrol.

All I can say is, we're just in the process of interview­ ing applicants for the job of commanding officer of this 70-man patrol. They still do check for purple gas. My wife was stopped three days ago, and had a sample taken out of her tank near Water Valley. So it's still one of their duties to make sure that people are not using purple gas illegally. Fortunately, she didn't have any purple gas in the tank. He wondered about insurance. They have not been directed to check for pink cards. We're leaving this at the moment to regular policemen as opposed to auxiliary police. The hon.

Member for Medicine Hat-Redcliff, during the question period, raised the subject of a judge who had sentenced some accused to only one day in jail instead of to the $400 minimum fine. I'll certainly look into that, but the reason for the $400 minimum fine is that it was felt the fine had to at least equate with the premium that had been avoided. If the average premium now is around $400, it doesn't make any sense to have a fine at a lesser level. Otherwise, it would be an encouragement for people to drive without insurance. The hon.

Member for Spirit River-Fairview raised a general point about a crackdown on drunken driving. I think that I, the government, and all members of the House agree with his position that maximum en­ forcement must be used to try to reduce the incidence of impaired driving. You're aware of course, as all members are, that we did introduce the minimum suspensions for first offences: six months for impaired driving, three months for refusing to blow, and six months for hit-and-run, effective January 1.

I certainly will be discussing general strategy with police forces for even further tightening of measures against impaired driving. Under Check Stop, I think I told the House the other day that over half a million vehicles were stopped last year. The availability of the RCMP: I think I dealt with that in my response to the questions from the hon. Member for Clover Bar. Although we're not totally satisfied, the situation is considerably better than it looked as though it were going to be last October.

The question of remands is beyond my jurisdiction as a service department for the court, but we have continually brought this problem to the attention of the Attorney General and the judges. I understand that the Chief Justice very recently sent a letter to every level of the court and members of the bar drawing attention to what is, in his words, becoming an almost scandalous situation, where we have people waiting for months on end for trial, and trials being adjourned for what seemed to be comparatively flimsy reasons.

The hon. member asked if a lot of the native people serving time in the correctional institutions were there for non-payment of fines, and the answer is yes. In Lethbridge, the largest number of native people are incarcerated for sentences that are $50 or 15 days for being drunk in a public place. They're serving comparatively short sentences for offences normally related to the abuse of alcohol. The capital expansion of Fort Saskatchewan: per­ haps we could discuss that when we get down to the actual estimates. Most of the capital portion is in the estimates of the Department of Housing and Public Works.

We'll be spending some $5 million in the capital budgets for the correctional institutions this year, and they'll be under the estimates of the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works. The renovations are for both. The hon. member wanted to know whether they were to make more room so we can get a better flow of prisoners within the institution or for security. Well, a little bit of both.

They are improving the security in the exercise yards, better bars on the windows, better lighting outside, a fence around the maximum security wing, now a fence around the playing field and the whole com­ plex, and a tunnel to link the two main buildings. What is called C block is separated from the main building and is now being linked by a tunnel, which was under construction at the time of the last big escape. I'm happy to report that the last of the four who escaped was picked up in Vancouver the other day. He's an escape artist, and for the time being they are holding him in Vancouver.

We'll have to pay special attention to him, if and when he comes back to Fort Saskatchewan. AN HON. MEMBER: Will there be an inquiry? MR. FARRAN: The hon. Member for Drayton Valley also talked about drunken driving, the degree of enforcement, and the penalties assessed by the judges. I took his remarks under advisement. I'll be talking to the Attorney General and, presumably, to the recently appointed Chief Provincial Judge. In speed limit enforcement, this year we'll try to improve the level of enforcement on existing posted speed limits.

There is a provision in these estimates for increased air patrol but, of course, that is only effective during daylight hours. Mr. Chairman, I think that answers all the points raised by the hon. members. Could we begin to go through item by item? MRS. CHICHAK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a few additional remarks for the attention of the minister, and I would like him to comment on some of them. I'm sorry I didn't get into the debate a little earlier, but I think that really isn't significant at this time. I've had — as I'm sure other members have had — representations from the public expressing concern

April 6, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 591 about the glamorous appearance of the institutions we are building and the standards we are setting there, that we're providing for those who are sen­ tenced as a result of infractions of the law, and that these institutions in fact provide a more comfortable and brighter place to live in for some period of time than many citizens [have] who are observing the laws of the land, who are earning their own living and not usurping the public purse in order to sustain them, and whose income level is such that it does not permit them to have these very comforts.

I think there's a great deal of concern being expressed in this particular area by much of the public. A very high standard of menus is regularly being provided, which much of the citizenry in the lower income level cannot begin to think about, even once or twice a month. These people are concerned about where our values are taking us in this particular area. Concern is expressed with regard to the high standard of recreation and entertainment provided within the institutions.

We recognize that we are trying to rehabilitate citizens, perhaps because of some contribution socie­ ty as a whole has made to their failure, and is trying to rectify this and assist in bringing them out of their dilemma. But how far do we move in the area of providing them with rehabilitation? What in total do we then consider is still part and parcel of the necessary rehabilitation to bring them out? Concern is expressed from time to time that in fact these institutions are providing such comfort and so many benefits that, really, many individuals prefer to return.

When they are released from the institution [they] simply carry out such acts as to violate the law of the land so they can return to the institutions, because they are far more comfortable. It is easier to live there, have all these benefits, and not have to shoulder the responsibility that one must have in society, in earning one's own living without being a burden on the public purse. Time and time again I, and I'm sure others, have expressed an expression from the public at large [about] inconsistency in the courts in the meting out of penalties in relation to the infractions.

The incon­ sistency is probably more noticeable with respect to the accused who are at what one might consider the lower status level of society. I don't like to use "class" to classify or indicate in that manner, but I don't know that there is any other way to be clear and distinct about the matter. Time and time again, the societal status of the accused appears to be relevant to the kind of penal­ ties meted out. If in fact this is the

interpretation or the reaction is quite accurate, I think this surely must have some kind of psychological effect on the citizen who is being dealt with in the courts. It must have an even greater effect, particularly if the accused, by some chance, was not directly involved in the infrac­ tion of the law, but under certain circumstances really has difficulty proving his innocence or is involved indirectly, and therefore is included with another citizen who in fact may have been instru­ mental in a plan for violating the law. I'd like as well to ask a question of the minister with regard to whether he is aware what kind of consideration or planning goes into the time

schedule and locations of the peaking of the Check Stop program in its implementation. I don't know if the hon. minister has heard any rumors. Of course when we hear rumors, we have to evaluate them. We have to think about rumors that perhaps members of the police forces are not that convinced that the Check Stop program has a considerable value. If, in fact, this does exist in the membership of the force, it would seem to me that the implementation or the planning of the implementation would be affected, because this would be done in a negative way.

Is there a concentration of the Check Stop program in areas and at times, particularly late at night when people are coming out of drinking establi­ shments? What kind of checking is there? Members of the public generally who do not visit or attend these premises become very annoyed that many patrons coming out of them have had what appears to be far in excess of their limits. There are no police cars around. There is no checking on this area. I'm not making accusations.

I'm simply asking the minister if he has had these kinds of representa­ tions, if some consideration of this matter has been taken up with the police forces, and whether he feels it is necessary to look into that matter. With regard to the matter of the unsatisfied judgment fund and payment for motor vehicle acci­ dents in situations where there is no insurance coverage — where the individual who has perhaps caused the accident, because of his or her inebriated condition, no longer has the protection of insurance coverage, and the fund is being paid out — have we examined that area of restitution sufficiently?

A case that comes to mind, without naming indi­ viduals, is one where a certain individual — very active in public, expressing and working for the concern of citizens in a committee, very righteous — has requested that the government should provide funding to assist groups of this nature to carry on the work on behalf of citizens. He himself was charged for causing an accident.

His financial situation is such that there is no way that the person who suffered the damage could collect under any kind of circumstance from that individual, because he had nothing seizable, nothing that the sheriff or any process of the law could possibly collect from him. Have we looked at that area to find some new ways in which, if such citizens are irresponsible, they in fact would not be permitted to have a licence to operate vehicles? Mr. Chairman, those are a few of the comments I wish to make at this time.

Perhaps the minister, after one or two others who wish to speak, would make his remarks on the matters. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Chairman, very, very briefly, if I could ask just one question of the minister. Would he comment on the type of rehabilitation being carried out in the areas of job and vocational training in our institutions? Would he also indicate whether such training is being pursued on an out-of-institution basis, and whether in fact every institution has this type of job or vocational training available for those who are incarcerated? When I talk about out-of- institutional training, Mr.

Chairman, I'm indicating here that when the incarcerated individual leaves the institution, he or she can carry on his training, and the placement for that training is assured, so that the individual will hopefully maintain his position in the

592 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1976 mainstream of society. The other question I'd ask in that area is: when such an individual commits himself to a job or vocational training, whatever the case may be, [does] the institution give serious consideration to shorten­ ing the term, if he's committed to that? MR. FARRAN: Mr. Chairman, just on the two remarks. First of all, the points raised by the hon. Member for Edmonton Norwood, when she referred to the glamorous appearance of these institutions. Well, I can tell you they fall far short of paradise.

They may not be exactly the dungeons of the seventeenth and sixteenth centuries, but Fort Saskat­ chewan itself is a very ancient institution which was certainly designed on the eighteenth century concept. There is no attempt in any of the institutions to make them glamorous, or plush, or lush. All we want is that they should be utilitarian, and bright enough to try to reduce the incidence of tension among the prisoners, which might lead towards a riot or some other sort of disturbance. They are not glamorous. None of them is like the Sheraton, the Hilton, or the Ritz.

When the remodelling of Fort Saskatchewan is completed, I'd be happy to take any members on a conducted tour. They'll see that, despite the invest­ ment of some $2 million, these places fall far short of any description that would use such words as "glamorous". Carpeting was introduced into the women's dormitory, a comparatively small dormitory, because it was thought that bright surroundings for long-term female prisoners were, in a sense, rehabilitating. The ancient concept that you could rehabilitate by chaining somebody to a wall in a leaky, water-filled dungeon wouldn't apply today.

However, I can give you my assurance that there is no attempt to make these places a home away from home. They're not of that nature at all. The chief punishment, of course, is loss of liberty, which is man's most precious and valued freedom. They do lose their liberty, and their lives do become regimented. The hon. member talked about a high standard of menu. Well, the food, according to our advisers, is nutritious. It is not as good as some of the inmates would like it, but I believe it is adequate.

Some of the comments I've had from the doctors who inspect the prisoners is that we tend to give too much carbohydr­ ate, and they are discharged a little more overweight than when they came in. We'll certainly be looking into that. Again, the menu is wholesome and adequate, but it is not of a standard one would find in the Edmonton Plaza or the Calgary Inn. Recreation and entertainment: there are limited areas for recreation and entertainment. I am certain­ ly hoping that I can improve the opportunity for outdoor exercise.

I am conscious that the more activ­ ity there is in an institution, the greater danger there is to security. The more you move people around, the more likely it is that a few will pop under the fence. We had two yesterday who escaped from a work party in Calgary. One doesn't react to that by saying, no more work parties in the field. If they're at work in the fields, you require more correctional officers to supervise, and your security is less. It's quite obvious to everyone that the most secure position in an institution is when everyone is locked in his cell.

But it is not the best for our attempts at rehabilitation or good morale in these institutions. Some of the so-called entertainment at the moment doesn't consist of much more than playing crib in a crowded corridor. All these institutions do have gymnasia. Those prisoners who are in minimum security, and sometimes medium security, can use the gymnasia. I would like to