VOL. 4 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MAY 24, 1979 NO. 36

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1471 ow- 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in _the Chair. MR. SPEAICER: Order,please! PRESENTrNG PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The hon. member for St. George's. MBS. MCISAAC: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 2,370 residents of the St. · (ieorge 's district • .. The prayer of the : petition is as follows: Electri.city _·if one of the basic essentials of living-~ Newfoundland has one of the hiqhest electrical rates in the caunt:ry coupled with the highest rate of unemployment.

Low income people and those on fixed incomes are finding- it va:ry difficult to meat the rising- cost of living. This rate increase souqht by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro must be disallowed by the provincial government and we, the undarsiqnad, petition the government to taka a firm stand aqainst it and also request that government seek alternate sources of inexpensive electricity for the people of the Province. we cannot afford another increase!' Mr. Speaker, in speaking- to this petition I sincerely support the petition presented by 2,370 of my constituents.

I think this is a biq majority of the voters of the district considering the fact that quite a few of the people from my district were included in the petition that the hon. mald)er for LaPoi.le (Mr. Neary) presented a few weeks &flO/ alonq with tbe fact that I still have seven co1111111mities that still have not sent in their petitions. So this is certainly a siqn or an indication thatc people are ve:ry, very unhappy with the p:roposed increase in el~ricity rates. The people raalize,as I do, that they just cannot afford and do not know how they can possibly pay hiqher rates for electricity.

Their price now .· llith the cost of living is so hiqh that most of the them are falling- behind in their electrical bills along with other bills ud there is just no way in the world that they. can cape with it. 3775

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1471 DW. - 2 MRS. ~ISAAC: So, thaqmJ.y utarnative is to t%y and qet gove:mment to -do sOJQethinq about it1 to probably freez;e the rates or p~,at the cl.mps on NewfoUII.dland and LabradOr Hydro in . - way or fcnl so as to allow the people in the Province to be a!Ue to eat ina:taad of hav:i.Jl9 to dish it all out in eleCi:rical rates. MOst of thea are goinq without: ot:her thinqs 6 '!'hey are 3776

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1472 NM- 1 MBS. MCISAAC: cutting down on their grocery bills, they are going without some of the other necessities because they find themselves with bills tilat: range from ~7G ~ .uv.tl.l, 1 _;_,;: jvU. .!.::. not have electric heat 1 up to probably around S200 if you do have electric heat, and they just cannot cope with it. And I sincerely hope that the Premier will take a sincere look at this. This is not the only petition that has been presented,as we know.

We have had petitions presented from other areas and I will be back with another one from seven other communities shortly, if the House is open. And I hope that the Premier will take a look at it and see just what he can do about it as far as freezing the rates are concerned. I do not imagine that he can lower them any but I hope that he can prevent them from increasing again. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker , I would like to once more, for I guess the twentieth time this session, perhaps the fiftieth time in the last couple of sessions,! would like to associate myself with the remarks made by an hon. member of this House, this time in the person of the member for St. George's district (Mrs. Mcisaac), who very capably presented a petition on behalf of her constituents. Did you say 2,200 names? MBS. MCISAAC: 2,370. MR. W. ROWE: 2,370 names of people from St. George's district, in addition to some names of people from St. George's district that my hon. colleague, the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) presented there a couple of weeks ago, another several hundred, you are talking about - MRS. MCISAAC: Plus seven ea.unities to be heard from.· MR. W. ROWE: So you are talking about more than half at this point of the constituents of that great,historic district of St. George's having voiced their absolute disapproval of any further increases in the cost of electrical rates for domestic consumers, householders,

• May 24, 1979 '!'ape No. 1472 Mtt. w. ROWE:: in this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not goinq to repeat aqain for the thirtie~ or fortieth time the arg131Dents which we have presented in this hon. .Bouse 119'linst an increase NM- 2 in the electrical rates. They are part of the record now. Melabers have stated thein, restated them, re-iterated them time aiid t.ime again. I just wish to ~rt this petition once more, that would brinq it wall QVer 100,000 names now, -11 over 100,000 names of people who have signed petitions which have been presented in this House.

I would say, Sir, that the 100,000 or so voters of this )?rovince, about one-~d of the votss of the Province who have signed their names would .certainly ~ joined by the other 200,000 who ,have not for various reasons siqned their name ·to any petition up to the' present, decryinq the prospective increases in electrical rates. Once more, Sir, let us jUSt qo on the reccrd as sayinq that electricity 3778

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1473 PK - 1 Mr. W. N. Rowe: has to be treated not as a luxury, but as a vital necessity, that the rates as they are now applie(' adversely .• affect people in an unfair manner: there are people who can afford the increases in electrical· rates, there .u-e far more who cannot afford further increases in electrical rates without it cutting into, eating into the Slllllll amounts M money which they have available for other basic necessities of life as well. Mr.

Speaker, there is a moral. duty on behalf of this government, any government of this Province, to keep down the cost of electricity, not only because it is a necessity, but because the government and government creatures such as the Hydro Commission, and private enterprise for that matter in the quise of Newfoundland Light and Power Company Limited, spent years encouraging the consumption of electricity in this Province, encouraging people to get into electrical heating , for example, only to have the rug pulled out from under them when the electrical energy cost crunch came on this Province, as othu parts of the world, and now they find themselves hopelessly 1 in many cases 1over their heads,unable to afford the cost of electricity rates .

And therefore this government should do what has been done in other jurisdictions, what is being proposed in other jurisdictions, and what we, Sir, as a Liberal Party want to see done as part of our policy- this government can do it,or we can do it as long as the people benefit- that is that there should be a freeze on electrical. rates until such time as we know where we stand with regard to the Lower Churchill and the Upper Churchill power that might be available to Labrador ,md to the people of the Island part of our Province which may have the effect of drastical.ly reducing the cost of electricity to domestic consumers.

Domestic consumers, householders, Mr. Speaker, cannot afford any further increase· in the cost of electricity. And r suppo~t the petition presented by the IIIElmber for St. George' s district (Mrs. Mcisaac) 100 per cent, Sir. And I hope that other members will be bringing similar petitions into this House as the session wears on. . 3779

.. May 24, 1979 Tape 1473 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (MR. OT'l'ENBED!ER) : ThE! hon. member for La.Poile. MR.~: ~uO !)er cen"J:. Mr. Speaker, I wish I cou1d support the peti. tion MR. W • . ROWE.: Yes. MR. m:Aln': . My hen. friend supports it 100 per cent, but I qive idliltever support I c~ give the petition presentl!!i by my colleaque, th4\! meml:ler for St. Geor9t~'s (Mrs. Mcisaac), Mz-.• speaker. I thiak Probably we are gettia:q up ·near now to ~e 120,000 lllll%k.

Every ~ new thal> c,;oes by there are two or three pEititions beinq presented i:.n the House I 8, 000 and 10 , ooa Newfoundlanders, probaJ)J.y signing s~ of these petitions for the second time, Mr. Speaker, because a couple of years,a9Q 1 hon. members will recall 1that we had 50,000 signatures on petition$ presented. to the Hollse • 3750

• May 24,1979 Tape No. 1474 AH-1 MR. NEARY: So far the prayer of the petitioners, the consumers of electricity in this Provine!!!, their plea has fallen on deaf ears. Now, Mr. Speaker, we hear the Government House Leader practically every other day now taking to the air waves and telling- us what a. wonderful job they government is doing in the House this seuion, what a wonderful proqramme we have going in the House and What we are accomplishing. But we have not heard anything yet:­ SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME IION. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Oh, oh!

The bon. gentleman is looking at what is happening through the eyes of a lawyer and anything that benefits the lawyers the hon. gentleman thinks is woonderful leqislation 1but it does not put any bread and butter on the tall1e of the ordinary people in this Province and it does nothing about the ever increasing electricity rates. MR. MORGAN: You are stopping that. You have stopped that so far (inaudible) last week. MR. SPEAn:R: (Mr.Ottenheimer) Order, please! Order! MR. NEARY: I will stop the hon. gentleman pretty soon, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman keeps telling ,11s about the wonderful proqramme.

Well 1 let us hear s~thing about things that the ordinary Newf~undlander likes to hear about- electricity rates, uhat the government is going to do about electricity rates • Out in Manitoba ten days ago, the government of Manitoba took the big step of putting a freeze on electricity rates in that Province by subsidizing the generation of electricity from the public treasury. Now that has been done in this Provin~ for years but the only thinq here is that the government here reversed itself.

They issued an ultimatum to Newfoundland Hydro that they were to make a profit or break ev-·1 and that is why electricity rates are going .up because of the action that was taken by this government. I do hope, Mr. Speaker, that the next time, and this seems to be a new trend that is developing and I am 3781.

• May 24,1979 Tape No. 1474 AH-2 MR. NEARY: prepared to say yet whether it is a good thing or a bad thing/ the Premier now is holding news conferences about once or twice every -ek or so and giving it wide­ spread publicity before he has the news ooaference then holding his press conference oand issuing veiled threats to the opposition by saying if the Opposition are not good boytl, do not toe the line, then I might pull the plug and have an election. MR. SPEAUR: (Mr.ottenhei.mer) The hon. gentlaaan will probably realize that lle is qetting into extraneaus Dtat:ters, at least extraneous to this petition. MR.

NEARY: Thank you, Yoa Honour. I just merely wanted to say, Sir, that we are not worried about the threats or the possibility of an election. We are quite ready.Any time the hon. gentleman wants to pull the plug with the way the popular vote turned out in the federal election well 1 certainly,- would be glad if the hon. gentleman did it soon.

But in the meantila.e, Sir, I do hope that the next tiDte that the hon. gentleman has a news conference that he would say something useful, something beneficial to the people of this Province; call his news conference and have the newsmen ask him, "What an you going to do about electricity rates in this Province?" That is the question. These are the kind of questions that people want answers to. Unemployment, the cost of living, electricity rates. That is what people want to hear about. 3782

- -- • May 24, 1979 Tape 1475 EC - l MR. NEARY: They do not want to hear about the foolish old legislation that will .be a bonanza for the lawyers; they wa.a.t = i1ear ailoue-wha.t the. <Jt.lv.l.r:IllloO>r•t. i;, goiu9 1::0) do ..bQ .. t ;;l;.aiz ~= a.a.d daughters getting jobs and about how they are going to pay thei.r electricity bills, MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) Order, please! Order, please! I. must point out that the bon. gentleman is getting into a wide-ranqi.ng area not rel.ated in any clear sense to the prayer of the petition. MR. NEARY: 'Dlank you, Your Honour.

But I. do support the prayer of the petition, Sir, and I do hope the next time the Premier feels inclined to have one of these news ccnferencea that he will say soD"Bthing and not just waste the time of the newsmen and his own time that I am sure he oould .be spending down in his office by making an announcelll!nt of what the gove:mmant is going to do about the ever increasing electricity rates in this Province. Are they going to put a freeze on or ·are they not?

To be or not to .be, that is the question • So I would like for the Premier to provi.de the nawsmen ,and in turn the people of this Province with the answer of wha.t he is goinq to do about the ever increasing electricity rates in this Province. AN HON, MEMBER: MR. SPEAlCER: MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! The bon. the President of the Council, Mr. Speaker, about the only thing the government plans on at present about a freeze is to put a freeze on the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, the bon. 1118111ber was talking about the matters which have occ:ured in the Houae and I am just wondering if we might revert to Statements by Ministers so the !'il:st Minister, the hon. the Premier, can make a statement. 'l'he hon. gentleman there opposite need not get tense - not just yet - but it is a very important statement just the same that I think the House and the public would .be interested in. MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave to revert to Statements? . 37G3

• May 24, 1!?79 Tape 1475 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: We will allow the han. gentleman to revert, S:ir. can we. not dispose of t:lUs peti.tion f:irstr ... finish this li~tie p.io:oce oi. bu.::>illaiioll anol ::han .:avart - MR. llOllERTS: Coma back on petit.iDns then. MR. IIIEARY : - and than we. will come back on petitions. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) I am not sure if the hon. the P:re.mi.er is speakinq on the petition or is readillg the lllinisteri.al statement. P'REMIER PEOCFORD: I was speaking on the ministerial statement. MR.

SPEAKER: There being no further speakers on t.!lis petition, I recognize the hon. the Premier on a minista:cial. state11111nt. PREMIER PECl<FOlm: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and thank you to the mambers opposite. Mr. Speaker, for the last seven years, the previous Liberal Governmant in Ottawa disputed this Province 1 s ownership of our offshore mineral resources. However, the new Prime Minister El.ect, Mr. Clark, has agreed to confizm this Province's ownership of its offshore mineral.s and thus remove the grounda for tha.t dispute and the currant reference to the Supreme Court of Canada.

The resol.ution of the offshore ownership problem is a IIIAjor event in the history of this Province. If the oil is there, as I feel. it is , the way 111ay very we.ll. be cl.ear for this Province to become a 'have' province. Any doubt as to this Province's right to maximize public revenues and eJ~t~loyment and co-rcial opportunities through a set 3784

May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1476 so - l PREMIER PECKFORD: of offshore petroleUIII regulations will now be removed. Similarly, there will be no doubt as to this ProV1nce's r~gn~ to oon~l ~e ra~ or aeve•opmen~ ~ ensure ~t we as a people are not swept away in a sea of change. The settiement of the dispute will improve the Province's position in the eyes of the financial co11111unity. To facilitate the rather ccmplicated process involved in Ottawa's confirmation of the Province's title, I wish to announce that formation of two special. Offshore ownership COIDIIIittees.

A cabinet Committee has been established consisting of myself as Chairman, the hon. William Ma.rsball, President of the Executive Council1 the hen. T. A.lex Hickman, Minister of Justice and the b.on. William c. Doody, Minister of Mines and Energy. In addition, a SPBCial Officials CCIIIII1i.ttee has been established consisting of Mr. Cabot Martin,my Senior Policy Adviaor,as Cha.irman1 Mr. John Fitzqerald, Assistant Executive Director of the Intergovernmental Affairs . secretariat1 Mr. William Porter, Assistant Deputy Minister • of Energy in the Departlllent of Mines and Energy, and Mr.

Stephen Millan, Special Advisor. Both Mr. Fitzgerald and Mr. Millan have previously served as Assistant Deputy Minister of Energy and were involved in the evolution of the Province's offshore policy.

The Cabinet Coumi.ttee, assisted by the Officials Coumi.ttee, will be responsible for: (1) a tb.orouqh analysis of all issues related to Ottawa's confiZlllation of the Province's ownership of its offshore 11\ineral.sl (2) the preparation of a detailed plan and timetable for the actual confirmation of our title by Ottawa: (3) discussions with Ottawa concerning such confi.J::mation; ( 4) the development of a formal. agreement and associated federal and provincial legislation to secure the offshore minerals · ownership :tights of the Province: and (5) the development of the administrative structures required to efficiently manage the Province's offshore mineral resourses. 3785

• May 24, l979 Tape No. l476 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: With regard to the latter point, I should point out that the Province has deliberately not built up its a<im.i.llist:L4tive capCIDillty prio-r tu t:ne election of l'k. ~j_ark because the outcome of thi.s dispute was in some doubt. With thi.:s doubt now removed, it wi~l be necessary for the Province to hire a significant number of offshore oil experts to adminis~ our offshore resourses.

Indeed, it will be necessary to work closely with the existing federal offshore oil bureaucracy in order to ensure that ths process takes place in a smooth way and does not disrupt cu=ent and future offshore oil drilling programmes. The process of confirmation of title is, by its nature, a rather complex one.

It wil~ be necessary, for instance, to establish formal working relationships in such areas as fisheries and the environment, where the Federa~ Gover!llllent will continue to p~y the major role 1so that the fisheries and tile environment are ful~y protected. we are all aware, I am sure, of the enormous task facing Mr. C~k in the immediate future and the many demands on his t.ime and the time of his new Cabinet; consequentiy, 3766

• May 24, 1979 PREMIER PECKFORD: in this matter. AN HON. MEMBER:. PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape No. 1477 NM- l we may have to be a little patient For several years. However, I am sure that the new government in ottawa will co-operate with the Province to ensure that this matter is dealt with in a speedy and smooth manner. MR. NEARY: Oh 1it is not cut and dried. PREMIER PECKFORD: The two committees I have announced here today will initially concentrate on preparing a fully documented proposal as to the ~~st manner of proceeding for presentation to Mr. Clark at his earliest convenience. MR.

NEARY: I thought it was aut and dried. PREMIER PECKFORD: Let me re-iterate that the confirmation of this Province's title to its offshore mineral resources by the federal government is a fundamental turning point in our history as a Province. I personally look forward with great anticipation to working with the new Prime Minister, Mr. Clark, and his government in this great venture. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer) : MR. W. ROWE: Thank you. Hear, hear! That is saying something. The hon. Leader of the epposition. I must say, Mr.

Speaker, it is a serious matter but one has to chuckle and smile a little bit at it. It is serious in that perhaps the Province will benefit from this policy of the Progressive Conservative Government in ottawa and perhaps it will not. I will not belabour the issue because my hon. colleague, the member for Eagle Rive:r; (Mr. Strachan), our spokeSIIIal1 on these matters 1 will undoubtedly be studying this and will have something to say on it in the House when we have a chance to debate it. 37o7

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1477 NM - 2 MR. W. ROWE: But, Sir, what the Premier just said, and without getting into debate, really amounts to a very premature statement on the setting up of some committees • .MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. W. ROWE: Not un1ike the Prime Minister' s transitional committees he set up, consulting firms he has hired in order to allow the smooth takeover of power by a party, that also is unheard of in the annals of constitutional government in Britan or Canada . But, Mr. Speaker, that is neither here or there. We certainly welcome anything that may benefit this Province.

I doubt very much if what the Premier has stated here today will have the tremendously additional economic benefit which he says it will have. If you compare the two policies, the former Liberal Administration federally, or the Liberal Administration federally and the Progressive Conservative Administration to come,you will see, Sir, that the economic benefits are not all that different. And my colleague can probably go into it in some detail later on, as will I. But, Sir, we are coming to a very much more important matter.

Up until now we could have assumed that the Government of Canada would utilize its vast resources in order to administer to a large extent, patrol, control the resources under the 200 mile limit. Now we find that the Premier has already announced that there will be expenditures undertaken by this provincial government,with its meager resources compared to the federal government, to set up administrative machinery which preslllllllbly will have to be used to look 3'788

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1478 DW- 1 MR. W.N. ROWE: after this new resource to :-which we will have 100 per cent ownership. And I would submit, Sir, that that will be Sc I would lik~ t~ ~e what ~~ final aqreemant is on th&t whenever it -y oome. I notice also the P:r::emier is very apoloqetic abOut the fact that the final aqreement, the final 1 detailed statement as to exactly what this new ownership policy will be1 is not likely to ccme for some time.

I would sWmi.t, Sirt that it has wry little to do with the work load on the Prime Minister's desk since thez:e are officials 1 and Cabinet Ministers, presUJM.bly,who can work on it on a day to day bailis. I would sublnit, Sir, that the question is not quite so simple as Hr. Pecltford - sorry Mr. Clark and our Premier,· whom I just referred to by n- have indicated it would be over the last nUIIIber of months.

It is a 11111.tter which is complex and difficult in terms of administration, in terms of pattollinq the, situation, in terms of the controls which haV8 to be exercised aqainst other countries who may come in, in terms of what happens outside our 200 mile limit • All of these problema, Hr. Speaker-, are not simple and certainly they may not be within the capaCity of this Provincial Government to deal with 1 especially in te%11111 of the expenditures and the finances which will be needed in order to do it. Now, Mr. Speaker, I will not say any- thinq f1:rther at this point in time.

I would like to see, if the Premiar woilld consent to it, the exchange of correspondence or the telezes.;; or whatever has passed between the Pn=ilier and tbe Pr..;me Minister llect in the last d&y or so which .::-confinns 1 as he has stated naw in a Ministerial Statement 1 tbis policy and this aqreement in principle between himself and the Prime Minister Elect ill ottawa or in Jaaper- wherever he is at the mDIIIBnt. I would like to see that, Mr. speat.r .. It seems to be a very premature s.tatem:ent and I would like to see what it is based on exactly.

Perhaps, the Premier oould let us ha"Ve ill-look at the co=espondence or the telexes of whate"Ver other form of. COIIIII1Wlication was used in order to come to this agreement in principle. 3789

• Hay 24, 1979 Tape No. 1478 ow- 2 MR. W .N. ROWE : The question is not si.alp1e , Mr. Speaker. It is c0111pl.icated aqai.a by the fact, just to brinq in anothe% rather extraneous -.tter, bat it is COIIIPllcated by the fact that the Go'ft!:mment of canada El.ec:t differs from our own Provincial Goverillaallt with z:espe~ to Petxocan,whidl. wdJ.l. ba- a ve.ey lU"ge zole or: sht>uld have a lazqe :m1e iD the exploration certainly and pe:dlaps in SODB of the ildlllinistntion that may go on as fu ae the offshore resouzces ;u:e c:ancemecl. Bow is *t problem goiaq to be resolved?

Bas the ~ergot a position nav whicn ia simi.Uar to Mr. Clark' s or ;u:e they still &t logqerheads il8 far as Petzocan as an institution, a policy ant of the Federal Gdve:mment . 3750

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1479 PK- 1 Mr. W. N·. Rowe: in terms of exploration, and perhaps controls an administration of offshore resources, are they still at loggerheads lh.ar .. or i~.ave they come 1:0 some id.nci or an agreemen"t;l !Joes our Premier agree with the Federal P.C. Government position that Petrocan should be disbanded, thrown out the window, or does he think that Petrocan should be kept in existence and in operation? Because that will have a large say, a large role to play 1 I would assume 1 on offshore resource development, control and administration. Many questions arise, Mr.

Speaker, and the whole tenor of the Premier's statement this afternoon indicates that it is not a simple situation at all; there seems to be some backtracking already in terms of time, and in terms of what the details of the final agreement will be. We will watch it with a great deal of interest, Sir, and we will be making some other statements as this session carries on.

But I would submit, Sir, the final position, and this is probably where the people of Newfoundland and Canada had been misled very badly, the final position assumed in the final agreement will not differ very much from the position which has been taken for the last number of years by the previous administration in canada, in terms of financial support and administration and expenses which will have to be assumed by this ·Provincial Government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPE.lUCER (MR. O'l"l'ENHEIMER) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, we are back where we began a half an hour ago. I would like to present a petition,if I might, Sir, in behalf of 142 residents of the community of Red Bay, which is in the Labrado~portion of the district of the Strait of Belle Isle, a community in that portion of the district which after the apparently imminent dissolution will be in the district of Eagle River. 3791

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1479 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts : I think the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is perhaps succinctly arid effectively stated by the heading and then perhaps say a word or two in support of it. "Let it be known that

whereas the present delivery of health services in the Province of Newfoundland stresses the importance of home care and preventative medicine; and

whereas the travel cnnditions between Red Bay and the existing nursing station at Forteau are difficult at best and frequently impossible,causing visits by medical personnel to be brief in duration to permit adequate nursing care and teaching opportunities, as well as being irregular; and

whereas the COI!IIlWlity has shown its concern for adequate medical service by means of the provision of a nursing clinic within the COI!IIlWlity Hall, we, the undersigned residents of the village of Red Bay1 do hereby request and petition the International Grenfell Association and/or the Department of Health of the Province of Newfoundl.and to take the necessary steps to appoint and settle a full-time nurse at Red Bay.." The petition,as I have said, Mr. Speaker, is signed_ by 142 of the citizens of that community, and that is just about every adult in the cOI!IIlWlity of Red Bay. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to support the petition very strongly. I think the request which it makes is modest. It is not only reasonable, it is a very modest one in this day and age to ask for the appointment of a nurse to serve a community of about 350 people. I do not know how many hon. members here know Red Bay • Some, I believe, are familiar with it from campaigns including the famous or in£amous by-election in the Summer of 1972. But Red Bay is 3792

May 24, l979 Tape l480 EC- l MR. :ROBERTS : the most Northerly communi.ty on the road portion.-the road in Southern Labrador- -a OCIIE\mity located about about fifty miles or forty-five miles by road from the nearest medical facility of any sort, and that is the nursing station at Forteau. The road between Pinware and Red Bay is one of the marvels o:f this Province. One of the ~s is that anybody ever gets over the road because it is in incredil:lly bad shape.

It is an affront to t:ha Depart::aant of Highways, an affront to the goveJ:niiiiUlt of this Province, an a£front to the people of this Province that it is in the condition in which it presently is, and, I may add, lest the minister thiDk I am just being down on him, it has been in pretty well that condition since it was built back in the late l960s. It runs along a spectacular gorge, the Pinware River. It is in incredil:lly bad condition., Por large parts of the year it is just not passable,days on end in the Winter and particularly in the Spring break up time.

I do not think there is any other part • of this Province, Mr. Speaker, where citizens, 200 or 300 or 400 of them, are so far from medical help of any nature whatsoever. The Minister of Health (Mr. House) is fairly new in the portfolio, but I think he is filllli.liar wi.th the needs of the people in this Province, at least in a general way, and I think he would have to agree with me there is no part of this Province where people are that far from medical help, from even first line madical help.

And given the amounts of IIDney that we are now spending on medical services, given the way in whicll facilities are being developed throuqhout this Province, I think it is high time that the people in Red Bay had a full-timll nurse. They have done their share. They have provided a building whi.cll is used as a clinic by the nurses who came there, by the doctor who comes by airplane or by road, because there is no aoctor stationed as yet in that part of Labrador. The petition is directed to the I.G.A. as well as to the Department of Health.

The I .G .A. , . of course, can only respond if the Department of Health provides the appropriate and neces&iliY 3793

• May 24, 1979 T.ape 1480 EC - 2 MR. roBERTS: fundin.g. 'l'hen the I.G.A. will find the personnel, wlll station them and will operate the delivery system which, of course, is their role. Th,. l.li.A. do not linci any moWiy now, or any significant amount of money. As is the same throuqhout the rest of this Province, the I.G.A. deliver services whi.ch are funded by the govert~~~~ent. I think they do a good job of doing that, but be that as it may, unless the money is provided by the Minister of Health and by the govemmant as a whole, the I.G.A. can do nothing at all. I think, Mr.

Speaker-; the. prayer of thi.s petition is . one that ouqht to COIIIIIIIII1d itself to thi.s House. I would hope that the government wlll be receptive to this. we are not talking a very large amount of money, possibly $20,000 or $25 ,000 a year to hire a nurse and to provide the necessary support facilities.

It would provide a vexy qreat benefit to 300 or 400 of as fiDe a people as there are in this Province, people who are independent, wllo are living in a very beautiful but very remote part of this Province, people who aow do not have access to medical services even remotely comparable to those available to every · other Newfoundlander and every other Labradorian. I support the petition, Mr. Speaker • . 3794

May 24,1979 Tapa No. 1481 AH-1 MR. SPEAXER: (Mr. Strachan) The hon. member for Eaqle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speeker, I support the prayer of this pstition very strongly. The member for the district, the melllber for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) has just indicated that the camanmity of Red Bay, as of the House dissolving and a new election the next time around will be in the district of Eagle River, the Southern part of rrr cl1s.trict which is split.

But rather than repeat all the points raised by the member,what I would like to indicate also is that in addition most of the people of t!tat Labr!ldor Coast area spend most of their time on the land or on the sea and DIOst of their work,if one analyses it and looks throuqh the nallber of cases which are presented to the hospitals and the mission stations, the nursing stations, a great deal of the work is of IQ'I ._E'}ency natuze1 it is work in which help is needed almost in'lllediately, assistance is needed almost immediately .~causa of the nature of the work of the .

I • people we find that there are 91m shot wounds or boat accidents or accidents on land and of course there is a great need, a necessity under these kind of situations for immediate help, ~diate professional help. I have seen along the Labrador Coast, and anyone can see who wants to visit the Labrador Coast, a CJr&at deal of tragedies, personal tragedies, peopJ.e<.who are either =ippled, people who are badly maimed or hurt and so on because they did not have at that time in the past inllediate help, immediate professional help which would save a limb, save a leq or whatever else that was required.

So what I would like to state here is that I support the prayer of the petition. The people have obviously dona their part. It is not as thouqh they are asking for something without having done anything. I think a great deal of the requests that we see in this House , and a great deal. elsewhere 1 are requests for things , total handouts, they are putting their hand out without committing themselves at all to do anything. I think in this case here they took 3795

• May 24,1979 Tape No. 1481 AH-2 MR. STRACHAN: the initiative, they built the nursing clinic, they put it in place, the same as the people in Charlottetawn 1 for instanoe,who did it all by donations and by their own work, Charlottetown on the Southern Labrador Coast 1 and requested a nurse and finally got one.

For this we ca11111end the Department of Health.And aqain i."l the COIIIIIUility of Red Bay I think there is no reason why an eaaential service, not a service which should be denied people as a luzury, but aa essential service should be satisfied almost ~diataly especially in view of the fact that people contribute to the benefit of the Province and also work on the land and on the sea and need this kind of service at all times during the year without havinq to worry about freeze-ups, break-ups , bad roads in Winter or blizzard conditions for three or four days at which people haw to risk their lives to try and get medical service to them. petition.

So I strongly support the prayer of this MR. SPEJ\KER: (Mr.ottenheimerl Bon. member ofr LaPoile • MR. NEARY: Mr. Spellker, I just want to have a brief word on this petition, Sir. I wholeheartedly support the prayer of the petition. I was one of the members that the hon. gentleman referred to who spent some time in that area during that infamous by-election that the hon. lllelllber referred to back in 1972.

I canvassed every house in Red Bay, went door to door, in that campaign and I travell~ over that road between Red Bay and L'An--au-Loup · quite often.And I IIIUSt say, Sir, one day - I believe my colleaque to my left here was with me -wen I refu.ed to drive over one of the hills, I qat out of the car and wal.k9d; and I am. not usually a very nervous fellow when it comes to drivinq . on roads or highways , but I got out and walked. I would not take any chances • Can :rou i.maqine , Mr.

Spellker, in the Wintertime peopl.e dawn there in Red Bay, in that ll ttle CCIIIIIIlUni ty in the Wintertime when aircraft or helicopters cannot fly in or cut and the road is bloclted with snow, can you imagine the anxiety and the torment and the worry 3796

• May 24,1979 Tape No. 1481 MR.~: on the people who liva in that cailaiRmity. I think it is a~·ve%1' ---able request. The people theiiiSa~vas have al.Zeady proVided tbe fliCilides in the provide th- with a Dln'M oa a year-I'Omld basis. It is a very reaaonale naquest, Sir, aDd I tbiDit tl:lat the qove:aDt~Dt sboald 1'allci:DcJ Uloat: tllat by-e,lectioa, Sir, I belie- it was the ~ for si:. jclm's last Extezn(Mr.Bickey) got lost- ~ he was \ 3797

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1482 ow- 1 MR. S. NEARY: knoc:king en doors in Blanc Sablon in the Province of Quebec before he r.ali.z•d that he was in the wronq Province • MR. E. ROBERt'S: An area that has since ~e PQ. MR. s. NEARY: An area that has gone PQ.I do not know if the hon. gentleman had anything to do with that or not. But the hon. gentleman got off the ferry, took off, started knocking.·an dOOJ::S in Blanc Sablon in the Province of Quebec. MR. W.N.ROWE: That was our first takeover bid. MR. S. NEARY: That is right! Mr.

Speaker, the point I CUll making is bow this hon. crowd can have any reqar~ or any compassion at all. for the people in the Straits, the people l Who live in that co1111111nity of Red Bay. Maybe the n.- lllinister of Heal.th (Mr. House), who has travelled that coast in his capacity 1with the school board, may have some compassion in his heart for the people down there.and may grant the prayer of the petition. But we do hope, Sir, that the government will give it very consideration. Nothing is more important, Mr.

Speaker, in this Province than the health of our people. so I do hope, Sir, that before too~long that we will •ee a full-time nurse stationed in the conmmity of Red Bay. PM:SENTING REPORTS BY S'l'ANOmG AND SPECIAL COMMI'l"l'EES MR. SPEAKER: (OTTENHEIMER) Before cal.ling the next routine pro- ceedinq,I will wel.COII'II!!'"to the House of Assembly on behal.f of hon.. members five Grade VII~"- students fram Roncalli High School in A-vondale acco~anied by their teacher, Brother Turner. 1 know bon. 1118111bers join me in wel­ coming these students and their teacher to the House of Assembly. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! NOT.ICES OF M:)TION MR. ~PEJUCER: Hon. minister. 3798

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1482 OW- 2 MR. MARSHALL: If I could at this time get the routine motion for Tlulr.lday over,I move that the House,when it adjourns today stand adjourned until lO:OOr t:olDOrrow moming and Ulal: cite sit'C.iA9 hours from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. be substituted for the reCJU.lar sitting hours from 3:00p.m. to 6:00p.m. MR. SPEAXER: The IIDtion is that when the House adjourn today, it adjourn until tomorrow, Friday,and sit from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. Those in favour "Aye, contrary "Nay", carried. MR. SPEAKER: (OT'l'ENBE:IMER) MR. W.N. ROWE: ORAL QtJES'nOHS The hDn. Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question or two to the Premier conceming the Come by Chance refinery negotiations. I thought the Premier might have a Ministerial StateD!nt today on it since he made :10111e statements outside the House yesterday. MR. S • NEARl!' : MR. W.N. ROWE: He wanted to play politics with the election • I fear, Sir, that that may be so.

But, Sir, anyway I will ask the Premier to tell the House what are the difficulties that are now being encountered with the negotiations with First Arabian COrporation, especially with respect to, apparently, the problem that I have been reading~in the news reports-I have not~ heard a statement here - the problem regarding emission controls, environmental problems that have apparently delayed negotiations and which may require a further extension of the deadlin• for the conc:Uasion of n~tiations. Would the Premier just touch on that, Mr. Speaker? _MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

First of all,I think all hon. . members reserve the right that when the House is closed that they an. allowed to make statements to the press and that they should try to inform the public of Newfoundland and the -voters of New~oundland through whatever means that are at their disposal of information which is of the public interest and therefore I take exception to the comments 3799

.. May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1482 OW - 3 PREMIER PECICFORD: made by the Leader of the Opposition that he feels that it is somehow improper and unusual for the Premier · of the Province to inform the media and other people of the Province about ongoing 11111.tters of great importance to the people of the Province. ADd I think the Leader of the Opposition will continue to consult with and inform the press in the same WllY as I will continue to do and I hope we can get some kind of agree-nts as to that being the peoper Wlly to proceed. MR. SPEAKER (MR. O'l"l'ENBEIMER): Order, please!

I IIIUSt point out tD hon. members that occasionally a questioner and oceuionally an anlllMrer stray beyond the confines of the _question :cand answer period 1but the Chair '110ul4 ask hon. .·members to minimize such straying. Hon. Premier. PREMIER PECD'ORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , I will attempt to do my best to respond to comments and questions to members on the opposite side of the House. To get to the matter at hand,there is no undue delay, Mr. Speaker, in the neqotiations that are ongoing.

The Leader of the Opposition sort of indicated that there were additional stumbling blocks over and above,or additional problems or additional items that have suddenly and rathar'miraculously entered into the . 38~0

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1483 SD - l PREMIER PECKFORD: negotiation between Government and the First Arabian Coz:poration, well, that is not true. There are a number of outstanding i ssues regardless of who puts in a proposal for the reactivition of the Come By Chance oil refinery. A number of those factors that have to be negotiated, have to do with enviroiUDent, have to do with finance ability, have to do with m=kets, have to do with crude oil supply and therefore these are to be negotiated in onqoing talks between the corporation involved and the Government and that is what is happening now.

On the matter of environment specifically, as I indicated yesterday there is information from the corporation concerned that the kind. of crude oil to be used in the refinery is somewhat different than the kind of ~e oil that was used in the refinery when it opened the first time, that the sulphur content of the crude this time will be much higher than the sulphur content the first time which, therefore, brinqs up the question of air pollution and the kind. of standards. that wauld be needed to accOIDIIIDdate or arrest or otherwise control that kind of pollution.

This is one of the areas of negotiation naw beinq talked to with First Arabian Coz:poration. MR. W.N. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: (Ottenheimer) Opposition. MR. W.N. ROWE: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, hen. Leader of the What is the situation? I mean, tile Premier has done an admirable job of sayinq that the crude may have hiqh sulphur content and so on but what is the situation. If this crude source is, in fact, used, where is it from? Mr. Speaker, I wauld ask the Premier 1 fir~, _111~e is the crude supposed to be coming from, number one?

And number two, if the crude is so different from that employed earlier in the refinery 1 what are the ramifications of it in terms of additional finances that are necessary, in terms of possible delays in the start up of the refinery and in teriiiS of the

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1483 SD - 2 MR. W.N. ROWE: possibi~ity of a fw::ther extension ·. of time havinq to be given beyond June 30th to First Arabian Corporation? appreciate it. MR. SPEAKER: (Ottenheimer) PREMIER PECKFORD: Ho:n. Prlllllier. !.'irst of all, Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. w.N. llr:lwe) for indicating that I am cioinq an admirable job. Secondly, on the question of where the crud~ caaes from 1 the crude supply will be e~ from the Middle East Wider the First Arabian proposal.

The question of the kind of crude. and what ramifications thAt will have upon the. financability of the project , that is yet to be determined. There are additional environmental studies goinq ahead presently by the co::poration, by Government to try to ascertain what impact the higher sulphw:: crude will have upon the financability, ; upon delays or exta.nsions to the time beyond June 30th and it is not totally clear yet just how that will impact upon the delay, upon cha:nginq the time aDd on the fi.nancabili ty. MR. W.N. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, hon.

Leader of the MR. W.N. ROWE: Let me put it this way, Sir -it is difficult to elicit any specific information -does the Pre:aier expect to have to give a fw::tber wttension beyond June 30th to First Arabian Corporation before their proposal is either accepted or rejected? MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I am not sw::e at this moment in time, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps in the next couple of days I will be more sure afte:r;. we have ongoing negotiations which will be taking place in the next few days. 3802

• May 24, 1979 MR. W.N. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: (Ottenhe:imer) the Opposition. MR. W.N. BOWE: Tape No. 1483 SD - 3 Further supplemen ta.ry, Mr. Speaker. Further supplementary, hon. I.eader of This raises the question as to whether just bQw well the negotiations - not negotiations 1 .because I wculd assume that the Goverm~~ent is waitinq for information, waiting .for ccmmi~ents. They are simply waiting.

What about the financial status of First Arabian Corporation and' its ability to provide the Government with the info%lll&tion or camitments necessary to show that they are in a position financial.ly to reactivate the refinery? Has there .been any chanqe on that? Rave they satisfied the Government yet'2 Aside from this crude, this apparently sulphur polluted crude oil resource, have they satisfied the GoverrDent that the finances are available to get the refinery going? MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Premier.

PREMIER PECKFOBD: As the I.eader ··of the Opposition undoubtedly knows, the source of crude and the availability of crude oil is a key factor in the financability and in the raising of funds. If one has the source of crude, well then that is linked directly to the raising of capital, so that, therefore, as insofar as crude oil supply affects the raising of capital, that

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1484 NM- 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: matter is fairly well in hand and we have fairly valuable information and valid information to indicate that the FJ.rst Ara.Dl.an CorporatJ.on are in a position i::o i".i.!J.i:UlC<: the reactivation of the refinery.

Whether other ongoing negotiations as it relates to environment and other matters of concern to the government will increase or decrease the total capital cost or the sale price, ongoing meetings with ECGD or the receiver or other people involved in the refinery so that that would extend the amount of money that would be needed 1 still remains to be seen. But we are fairly confident at this point in time that the financability component of the proposal is a fairly realistic and reasonable one. MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): A supplementary. MR. W. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, a final supplementary unless something dramatic arises out of the answer 1 which I doubt. Mr.

Speaker, the Premier seems to be relatively vague on the source of crude oil -· - the Middle East - but he does not know whether the crude which apparently may be the crude employed in the refinery will affect this or affect that or affect the other thing, let me ask the question directly to the Premier, have First Arabian Corporation supplied the government with a crude oil source, a specific source, or are they still in the realm of possible sources and is this what is causing the problem that this possible source may have too high a sulphur content?

Or have they come to the Premier and said, "Look, this is where we intend, we have a commitment with regard to the crude oil sources where we intend to get our crude oil, this is the situation, now what can we do about it?" Is there a specific undertaking from First Arabian Corporation to the government that this is the source of the crude oil, this Country, this area, this is the source of the crude oil, period, or are we still in the area of vagueness and possibilities with regard to the crude oil source?

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1484 NM- 2 MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): The han. Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am not trying to be vague as the Leader of the Opposition has indicated. As the han. member is well aware, when the government is involved in talks and negotiations on something as large as this, and certain negotiations are still ongoing where change can occur, then one has to be careful about how one responds to questions like ones that the han. Leader of the Opposition is now putting forward.

The crude oil supply is a fairly definite source at this point in time as we have been informed by First Arabian and Ashland Oil. It is a definite source of crude and there is no problem with the crude oil supply. MR. SPEAXER: for Bellevue .• MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, the day before yesterday the Premier was in the media saying that the Come By Chance oil refinery may never open and it depends on how many other oil refineries may be built on the Eastern Seaboard by the United States Government • That was the day before yesterday and that kind of put a little damper on the hopes of the people out there who were thinking, "Well, we will have a contract with First Arabian, we will have the oil refinery open perhaps before Christmas." Then yesterday the Premier comes out to put another little damper on their hopes by bringing in a motherhood thing that cannot be disputed, "Well, wa do not want to pollute your air so therefore here is another little thing." I am wondering if what the Premier MR.

NEARY: cabot Martin (inaudible). MR. CALLAN: - is not actually doing is letting the people down gently, do not want to let them fall too hard but letting them down gently by bringing in these things. I want to ask the Premier - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Actually, if the hon. gentleman had said his last few words just a second earlier 380-5

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1484 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Ottenhei.mer): it would not have required an intervention. I was going to require the hon. gentleman to proceed to a question. MR. CALLAN: '!'hank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier to tell us honestly and truthfully, are there any difficulties, complications in the dealings with the First Arabian that will lead the Premier perhaps next week or the week after that to come out and say the whole thing is off, you know, this is what it is leading up to. Would the Premier be honest with us? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier .

PREMIER PECKFORD: I thank the hen. member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) for relating the various public statements that I have made over the last number of days to bring the House up to date on the statements so that we have a clear idea of what has been said in the last three or four days as it relates to the Come By Chance oil refinery reactivation • The situation is - as the hen. member for Bellevue wants me to be, I am trying to be straight and honest in the statements that I make as it relates to the Come By Chance oil refinery - number one, there are no what one should classify as special difficulties or problems with the ongoing talks with First Arabian Corporation.

They would be there with any proposal. There is nothing unique about their proposal which brings to bear · on it certain kinds of problems which ordinari.)..y would not be there under any other proposal. That is number one. Number two, there are problems with, as there would be with any proposal, 5

May 24, 1979 Tape 1485 PK - l Premier Peckford: government's reaction to certain environmental concerns that we would have relating to the reactivation given the kind of crude oil supply, it seems to be the one that is available at this point in time through First Arabian for the reactivation of the refinery.

Thirdly, as I guess anybody who knows in the energy field that one of the reasons why as the reactivation of the Come By Chance oil: refinery is even being considered at this time is because there is a high demand for a refined product on the Eastern Seaboard of the United States, and there is an extremely low supply of refined product within the United States itself, in the Continental ' United States, on the Eastern Seaboard, pr.imarily because environmentalists and conservationists in Vermont, Maine, New H~shire, New York, the upper New York State, Massachusetts, and New Jersey now have implemented high standards that cannot be met easily,.and some even, for example, have stopped shopping centres from going ahead on conservation and • the land used grounds • So that therefore it is highly unlikely that in the immediate future there will be additional refining capacity established on the Eastern Seaboard, making the reactivation of the Come By Chance oil refinery more attractive.

MR. CALlAN: Why did you say it? PREMIER PECKFORD: You know, that is what I have been saying, and that is why it is important that there does not seem to be on the horizon any additional refineries to be established on the Eastern Seaboard which would mitigate against this reactivation effort right now. So I do not see that factor as being important in the overall equation of whether Come By Chance opens or closes. I am not trying to be ominous or hint about something that government might be doing next week or the week after.

I am just indicating that we have to be sure because we are looking at a different environmental set of circumstances 1 given a higher sulphur crude,before we can allow and put our stamp on any kind of proposal like First Arabian's. But things are moving along fairly well. We are presenting our concerns on all the various parts of the proposal

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1485 PK - 2 Premier Peckford: to First Arabian. They are coming back with answers. We are going back with more concerns. And we are negotiating - back ana forth Oil al:i. thase · points l::iyht top ·;..nL..i.l· tl1e present =ment, rod will continue to do. And we will continue to try to inform,as we are now doing. I would not read anything special into what has gone on to date to indicate no opening of Come By Chance or opening. There is a proposal there for opening and we are working to try to make that a feasible thing. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (MR.

O'l"l'ENHEIMER): I will hear a supplementary from the han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde, then the hon. gentlemen for LaPoile, Terra Nova, and Eagle River. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the Premier indicated that they have a fairly definite source of crude or sources of crude. I would like to find out whether they have a fairly definite single source or various sources and secondly, whether that fairly definite source . of crude is in fact crude which contains this high sulphur content .

Would the Premier indicate whether there is a definite source or sources on the one hand, and whether the source or sources have all the high sulphur content? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: There are a number of sources for the crude that First Arabian and Ashland are looking at and have definite, number one. And the high percentage of all the sources put together is high sulphur crude. MR. F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. ROWE: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker, if I may? A final supplementary. Would it be fair to say,therefore, Mr.

Speaker, that in fact the First Arabian companies now are really looking for a new saurce of crude oil for the purposes of reopening this refinery if all of these sources have a high sulphur content? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier •

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1485 PK - 3 PREMIER PECXFO.RD~ No. we are still working under the present source of crude,which is a high sulphur =ude,because we have not firmly establislled ··whether in fact the results of the ~:f.tiUng of that hi9h sulphur crude would be a negative factor as it relates to the environment. '!hat is to be established thrcuqh environmental studies that the corpo:ta.tion are havinq done themselves, and which the Provincial Government are involved in. MR. SPDKER (MR. Oll"l'ENHEIMER): The hon. member for Terra Nova, folloWed by the hon. gentleman for Eaqle R.i. ver. MR. LUS:S:: Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask a question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower {Mr. Dinn) or the President of Treasury Board (Mr. N. Windsor), whichever llli.nistel: feels he is most conversant w.ith the que.stion. I wonder if the minister could inform us quickly, briefly and concisely about the status or success of scnue of the more troublesome negotiations that are qoinc; on between the government and the Public Service l!llq)loyees, the teachers and tl1e nurses and the like?

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1486 EC- l The hen. minister. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) MR. N. WINDSOR: Yes , Mr. Speaka.z:. The teachers - we have made rec:ent offers to them which they are now QOnsiderinq and we would hope to get an answer back. from them in due course. The city police - meetings will be hald, scheduled, I thi.Jlk, for tomc:rrow so negotiations are 01190inq there. 'l'he nurses - aqain, we have made offers to them.; neqotiations are ongoinq and further IIIBetinqs are scheduled for next week. Hospital workers - a ClOnciliati.on board is now beinq appointed. The Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Di.nn) has approved a ClOnci.liation board for that qroup and they are beinq appointed. Is there anybody else you want to find out about? MR. LUSH: Pilots. MR. N. WINDSOR: Pilots - there l.s a good situation, Mr. Speaker. I am qlad the hon. qentleman asked ma the question. I should perhaps mantion that one first because it is the 1110st critical • We had a n1.1111ber of the co-pilots who reported sick. t.hi5 1110l:ni.nq and left us without fire fightinq protection in the Central N-foundl.and area where we had some fires underway •. 'lh&t pxoblem has now been overcome. We have crews on staff.

The situation with their negotiations is that the final offer has been made to them which they are brlnqinq to their meJIIbership for a vote and we expect to haW! a response on that by June S.th. We were, however, quite upset with the rather irresponsible action taken this 1110rninq. MR. NEARY: You cannot say you were not warned. MR. N. WINDSOR: All. of the QO-pilots - if the ben. qentlaman would allow me, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: O:rdar, please! MR. N. WINDSOR: All. of the ClO-pilots reported in sick.. I am not in a position to say whether they were sick. or not but it sounds 1110st unusual.

We feel it is rather irresponsible to leave the Province without any fire protection knowinq full well that there was a rather serious 3810

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1486 EC - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR! fire in Central Newfoundland. We take a veey dim view of it and we have expressed our conce.rns rather cl.ea.r~y ~ the 1:r.ion !.aU!c.r:s -:mo ~= a~d •.ri~'l :JS a::::l. =...-:!! QJin; t!l.ei= utmost, they aay, to get these people back to work.. Nevertheless, we have made other arrangements sa that the water bombers are new figh.ting the fire. I also =derstand that it is raining in the Central N-foundland area so there is not any imminent danger. But it was a serioua situation and we were qui.ta concerned about it. MR. SPE.AlCER: (Mr.

Ottenheiatr) '1he h.on. the member for Eagle. River followed by the h.on. gentleman from LaPolla. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to follow up on a question to the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) from last week, and I thank both hi.lll and the member for Exploits (Dr. Tw~yl for allowing the provincial sales tax on th.is one pieca of equipment, the blood gas analyzer, to go throuqh being exempt on sales tax.

I.G.A. and a number of groups in Labrador have now asked me. to ask the minister to CODSider establishing in principle that equipment bouqht by the I..G.A. hospitals in Labrador will be exempt from all future sales tax the same as many other exemptions are allowed for many other groups because of the foz:ma.ti.on, because it i.s the I.G.A., which is a private organization, then they !lava to pay th.is sales tax which seems a ridi~oWi situation.

Sa I wonder if the minister would consider immediately establishing the principle of allowing tllem in Labrador to be eJaSmpt from sales tax for the purchase of very necessary and very needed hospital equipment? MR. SPEAKER: Tile h.on. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I think we. would appreciate any direct representation from I.G.A. over this mattar. 'l'o my knowledge, apart from _ ~e hon. member, who very c ~..-=ctly and very admirably and laudably brouqht up the question, except far the. h.on. member's represantation, I de net believe we have h.ad any direct representation on this and I think we would wa.lcoDB it. Tile second thing :t might say is that in the budgetary process the whole question and the whole subject of the retail sales tax incl.udinq exemptions or possible exemptions thereto is a matter that is being reviewed. I will certainly note it. 3811.

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1486 EC - 3 DR. J. an.I.INS: I. think r indicated last day that this would be given consi.Oe.ration. D. ~~ {Mr. Ottauho:;oimc.r) '1he bon. the llleiiiDe.r for l.ai?aile.- MR. NEARlr: Mr. Speaker; my question is for the Minister of Health, Sir. I.n n.., of the fact. that the. P%1::1-Ufe IIII)'VUIBnt in Newfoundland seems to be qrowinq steacU.l.y alld. becomi.nq ~ sQ.onq~ would the. hon. gentleman indie&te to the.

Hawse a bal.l.parjc. fiCJU& - I. kzKnr the. hem. gan:tl.elllan does not have the sta.~tics riqht at his finqertipa - the DDI!Iber of abortions done in ~dland hospitals last year and the nmaber of abortions that the bon. qentleiUil anticipates will be dallB in · this calendar year in this P%1:1ri.nce? MR. SPEAUR: MR. HOUSE: Tha hon. the. Minister of Heal.th. Mr. Speaker, it is COIIIIIOil ICDowledc;e the nmaber that wa.s dQne in the last year. I.t was 534, I. think, and 3812

May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1487 NM- 1 MR. W. HOUSE: that is put out periodically, the number of abortions per year is put out periodically by the committee that screens the number of app~cants for abortion. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimerl : A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the han. gentleman indicate, Mr. Speaker, what government hospitals are now doing these abortions? The majority of these abortions I presume were done here in the city of St.

John's• Would the hon. gentleman tell us what government hospitals, what hospitals that come under the hon. gentleman's control, the number of abortions done in these hospitals,roughly? I know the hen. gentleman does not have a specific figure. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, all the abortions done of course are done under the Criminal Code Regulations and they are therapeutic abortions. I do not know, I can give you a ballpark figure, • most of them done are done at the Health Sciences Complex because that is where they are done here in the city and Eastern Newfoundland.

There were about fifty or sixty in Corner Brook, a few in St. Anthony, and two or three in other hospitals. And these are all, as I say, done ·,through a committee and they are classed as therapeutic abortions. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the concern being expressed of the abuse of the abortion laws in Canada, Sir, does the han. gentleman think now that it is time as Provincial Minister of Health to take a good hard look at the abortion - I am sure the people in this Province would he shocked to hear that 534 abortions were done in government hospitals last year. And certainly that is not 1 at least it strikes me as not being in keeping with the spirit of the law and the committees that were set up at these hospitals. And what I am asking the minister are these committees being properly policed?

Is there abortion on demand now in this Province or is abortion just 381.3

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1487 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: granted under certain circumstances? Does the minister himself feel on moral grounds if nothing else that it is time to take a good hard look at the situation to see if the law of the land is being abused? MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot say whether I think it is abused or not. The fact is that there is a committee and that committee reviews every case. For instance there have been questions that have been thrown out saying that certain doctors recommend more people for abortions than others.

The case is that, when they have looked through all of this 1 that is not the case and there have been a lot of withdrawals from the applicants. We believe that it is being done in the proper spixit and when you look at Newfoundland in relation to other provinces and you look at what the committees have to go through 1 we believe that people are acting very responsibly. the time.

It is under constant surveillance all As a matter of fact 1 it was only a couple of weeks ago that I met with the hospital board in one of the hospitals 1 but I never met with the committee and I do not intend to meet with the doctors on it but I meet with the hospital boards 1 of course 1 and that is a topic of discussion. So at this time I think we have got to carry on as we are because I do not believe it is out of control. It is not up appreciably over last year and it does not seem to be up over the year before last - last year' s figure - and they do not seem to be up appreciably this year.

And as I said there have been some that a lot of people have had requests to the committee and the committee has turned it down. So there is definitely not abortion on demand. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, and then the hon. member for Fogo. . 381.4

• May 24, ~979 Tape No. 1487 mt- 3 Mr.

Spe<!k~r, I would .gather from the hon. gentleman' s answer that the hon. gentleman is quite satisfied that the CO!I!IIlittee is meeting reqularly, that al:lortionS aee l:ie.inq perfo:rmed in conjunction with the rules and regulations that have been laid down, that abortions will only be grantced under extreme circumstances, difficult circumstances and that the law is not being abused and the bon. gentleaaan is satisfied in his own mind that is eveeythinq is going according to the spirit of the law, according to the rules and regulations, and that the hon. gentle!IIIUl is R'ltisfied that between 500 and 600 abortions in Newfoundland · every year are absolutely essential and necessary and that the han. gentleman can condone what is ha,ppElnin<J at the present time, especially at the Health Sciences Complex where you have a slaughter house one day a week.

MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer) : Order, please! The hon. Mini.ster of Health. MR· HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I am never satisfied first with anything 1 but I have reason to believe from the discussions that I have bad that it is being done within the spirit of the Criminal Code, 381.5

• May 24,1979 Tape No. 1488 AH-1 MR. ROUSE: within the spirit of therapeutic abortions • There is some argument as to what do you consider therapeutic is, for physical or emotional or mental reasons. 'l'hat is being decided by this COIIIIIIittee, a professional COIIIIIittee 1 and as I said we have every reason to be cautious but I have every reason to believe that it is being carried out in the proper spirit. MR. SPEl<ICER: (Mr.Ottenheimer) CAP1'. WINSOR: Ron. member for Foqo. I would like to direct a question to the han.

Minister of Transportation and eommunications (Mr.Brett). 'l'he wazm,sunny weather that we h&ve been getting during the past few days has created a lot of dust p:roblems liiUch earlier this year than usual. Can the minister inform the House when he expects that calciUIII will be spread on the gravel roads around the Province? MR. SPE.IU(ER: MR. BRE'l"l': 'nle hon. minister. Mr. Speaker, I cannot be S,?::lcific about each c:omanmi ty throuqhout the Province because it is our intention to use calciUIII chloride in all the built-up areas of the Province -that"is,where there are no councils.

I do know that the proqr21111111e was suppose to start, I think, yesterday or the day before but I do not thilllc that every COIIIIIIunity will qet it the same day. So in actual fact the proqra11111111 has started in sane parts of the Province but how long it will take to complete the whole Province I cannot say. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Order 2. MR. SPEAICER: Order 2. MR. W.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, on Ordars of the Day, with 1-ve. The hon. the Premier, I IIIBnticmed to him a little while aqo, I thouqht he was qoinq to rise ont Orders of the Day. He has probably forqotten or is preoccupied with s0111ethinq.

But, Sir, we have had a recent political event in Canada. We have a 3816

May 24,1979 Tlq)e No. 1488 AH-2 MR.W.ROWE: new Prime Minister Elect and we have a former Prime Minister who is about to retire from that great office. I wonder if the Premier would move a motion ' of conqratulations to the Prime :·Minister Elect aDd a 110ticn of beEt wiShes to Prime Minister Trudeau on his retirement from that office, perhaps temporarily or perhaps permanently, to be endorsed by all sides of the House, drafted in appropriate lanquaqe by Your Honour and sent to the two han. qentlemen? MR. SPEAKER: (Mr.ottenheimer) The han. Premier. PREMIER PECD'ORD: Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition and I had talked about this earlier and I intended to do it and I overlooked it and I apoloqize for havinq overlooked it. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition an appropriately worded teleqram to the Prime Minister Elect, my qood, qood friend, Joe Clark and also to the outqoinq Prime.-Miniater, Pierre Elliott '.t'%udeau, and best wishes for a lonq retirement from both the Prime·Minister's • office and ·as leader of the Pederal Liberal party of Canada • MR.W.~: To be drafted by the Speaker in appropriate lanquaqe.

IIIR. SPEAKER: It has been DIOved and seconded that letters of conqratulations in one case and of beat wishes in the other case be sent to the Prime Minister Elect and the present Prime Minister. Those in favour, "Aye", contrary "Nay" 1 Carried. MR. MARSHALL: Order ; 2. Bill No. 2 On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend '!'he Increase Of Pensions Act, 1961, •" read a third time, orderd passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 2) MR. MARSHALL: Order 3. Bill No. 7.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Repeal the Teacheri:'o Loan Act, • read a third time, order passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 7) 3817

• ~ 24,1979 '!'ape No. 1488 AH-3 MR. MARSHALL: Order 4. Bill No.l2. On motion, a bill, •An Act To AlneDd 'l'he Int:el:pretation Act," read a thi%'4 tUB, orlier passed and its title be as on the Orlier Paptr. (Blll No. l2) MR. MARSBALL: OXder 5. Bill No. 27. On IIIOticm, a hill,"An Act To AJneDd '1'he Inceme 'l'u: Act, n read a third time , orlier passed and its title he as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 27) MR. MARSHALL: Order 6. Bill No. 30. On motion, a hlll, "An Act To l!mend 'l'he Sec:Uri ties Act," read a third time, order passed and its title he jlB on the Orlier Paper. (Bill No. 30) MR. MARSEl.LL: Order, 7. Bill No. 31 • . 3818

• May 24, 1979, Tape 1489, Page 1 -- apb On motion, a bill, "An Act To Enable Gaden's ~ted And Labatt Breweries Of Newfoundland Limited To Become Federal Corporations," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 31). MR. MARSHALL: Order 8, Bill No. 20. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Maintenance Orders (Enforcement) Act," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No.20). MR. MARSHALL: Order 9. on motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Bill No. 15, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN(Cross): Order, please! The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Before we allow the

short title to pass, Mr. Chairman, I believe the government owes us, the Premier - the Minister of Justice, unfortunately is not with us - the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) . certainly - OWe us some kind of an explanation as to whether or not they are going to provide us with the data, the information that we have been asking for now for the last couple of years in connection with the operation of the mill at Stephenville, .when the government had it under its control, to find out just what it is we are disposing of.

The hon. the Premier promised to give us an updating on RCMP investigations into the Linerboard mill - two investigations, I believe, are in progress. one, we understand from the newspapers is 99 per cent complete and the other one, we do not know what stage it is in. -~~er thing is that there seems to be an outstanding contract, an outstanding agreement. Once we pass this bill hon. members will realize, we are rescinding the old act, we automatically rescind the 1972 act setting up the Liner board company.

But there seems to be an outstanding law­ suit, or a difficulty of some kind with a marketing company in 3819

• May 24, 1979, Tape 1489, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Hamburg, Germany known as Schurfeld and Company. I am told they were suing the Newfoundland Government for something or other. I do not know, Mr. Chaizman, what it is all about.

I asked the Premier to get me the information ten days ago or a week ago an.d the hon. gentleman promised me that he would, as the hon. gentleman promised the House that he would lay on the table of the House all the data, all the information, give an account of the stewardship of the operation of that mill when it was under the control of tne Newfoundland Government. we have not seen any evidence yet of how the $3~0 ~Ilion or $400 million involved in the Linerboard mill was spent.

Three hundred million dollars we know went toward the completion of the mill, the start-up and the maintaining and operation of the mill. We know that. We know $155 million of it went toward the construction of the mill, but what about the other $150 million? we have no accounting of it. And we have no accounting of the $100 million or so that passed through the hands of the board of directors in connection with marketing the product. No accounting! Mr. chairman, it is criminal! It is unconstitutional!

I cannot think of words strong enough to say, Sir, to express my feelings about the government's stonewalling on this matter, refusing to give us any information so we can make a judgea)Elnt in our minds as to what it is we are selling. What happened to all the equipment that was out there at Labrador Linerboard? What happened to all the equipment that was up in Goose Bay? Is that going to be given to Abitibi Price? 'l'he government for some reason or other, Sir, are stonewalling. Why are they stonewalling?

They are leaving the impression they are trying to be half decent and half honest in trying to level with the House and level with the people but,having said that, ~t looks like they are going to pick and choose what they are going to be honest about and what they are going to level with the people about. - 3820

• May 24, 1979, Tape 1489, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: Three hundred million dollars plus over a hundred million dollars worth of product shipped to Europe and the United States and no accounting to this House • 3821.

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1490 PK- 1 Mr. Neary: I can hardly believe it, Sir. I cannot understand why the media have not gone on the warpath and on the rampage. They _ kick up-a fuss about silly little things like leakinq police reports, and here you have $400 million, $300 million or $400 million involved, passed through the hands of three ministers on a Board of Directors of that company, set up by this House, and they refuse to give the House any information in connection with the disposition or the spending of that $300 million or $400 million.

But I know the hon. gentleman will get up and say he is repetitious , the member is being repetitious • I suppose I am being repetitious. How can you say $300 million, $400 million any other way than to say it? And that is what they are stonewalling on. And we do not know what it is we are approving right now. What else goes to Abitibi? What happened to all of the equipment that was out there? What happened to all of the equipment up in Happy Valley-Goose Bay? MR. MABSHALL: Mr. Speakar, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. CROSS): A point of order has been raised. MR.

MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is (inaudible) is not relevant to the matter 5efore the Committee at this time. He is bringing up all of these points and then ending with the question, how else can we make a judgment? Now the fact of the matter is that the House, Mr. Chairman, has already made a judgment on this, the principle of this bill, which is the sale of the Labrador Linerboard mill assets to Abitibi, and this is not the purpose for its consideration in Committee. The House has already decided that. We have said that over and over again.

You are getting to the stage where you almost have to paint it on the walls. Now the matters that the hon. gentleman is bringing up, theX may be of great interest. I know the¥ have been asked again and again in the House and various answers have been given from time to time 1 but the point of the matter is this is not the place to bring it up. The hon. gentleman is being completely irrelevant to the question . 3822

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1490 PK- 2 Mr. Marshall: at issue, which is a clause by clause consideration of a bill which has already been approved in principle by this House; and he is bringing up matters and ending it by saying, "How else can we make a judgment?" already been made. MR. NEARY: The thing is, Mr. Chairman, the judgment has Mr. Chairman, to that point of order. Sir, Your Honour, will recall that during second reading when we debated the principle of this bill the hen. the Premier, the hen. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Doody) promised this House that they were going to lay certain documentation and certain information on the Table of the House before the bill was passed. MR. MARSHALL: It has been given. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, that is the point_, it has not been given. The hon. gentleman merely stated that $300 million was spent in Stephenville on the mill, but will not give us any details, will not give us access to the information, will not give us an accounting of the stewardship of the time the government operated that mill from 1972 up to the time it closed. And, Mr.

Chairman, I sUOmi t I am perfectly in order to ask for that information and that we should not pass this bill, go through it clause by clause until we have the information. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. CROSS): To that point of order. I think what the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is asking is additional information_, and I would have to rule that he is in order. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am merely asking a few questions of the government, Mr. Chairman, and Your Honour certainly is being most helpful and most democratic in allowing me to put the questions to the Premier again.

Is the Premier going to give us any more information on the operation of that mill, or ·will the government continue to stonewall? I asked about the company in Hamburg, Germany that is suing the Newfoundland Government. I would lika to know why they are suing? I would like to know how many outstanding lawsuits the government has against it as a result of the operation of Labrador - 3823

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1490 PK - 3 Mr • . Neary: Linerboa.rd, Mr. · ·Cbaizm.an? t would like to know abotrt tbe progress of the J?olicec i.n.'l18stigati0115 i~to the - aDd let . me repeat again, Mr. Chairlllan, what I am sayinq,beeaWJe obviQW<~l,y this bits not sunk in ~et, Labrador t.inerboaz'd;wben it was operated by the government, the Board of Di:rect:ors got t.ogether. Mr. Ingram was on tbe Board of Directors, .. 3824

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1491 EC - l MR. NEARY: Mr. Kraft of International Forest Products was on the board of directors_, and they all qot together and tiley scu.ci, 't.ooi, it we can ge~ ~320 a ton ror li.nerboard tha~ woul.c1 :Oe a vary good price.' Is that not ri.qht? Is not that what they said? MR. MABSHALL: Sorry, but (Inaudible) , problem. MR. NEARY: Well, I wish somahody was in hi.s seat so he could confirm what I - MR. ROBERTS: It is the Premier you want. MR. NEARY: But the hon. gentleman seems to know all about Come By Olance and Linerlloard. He might be able to give us the answer.

But anyway, let me repeat for the benefit of other members. What they did was they qot together, the people who were marketing the linerlloard, the manager of the mill and the three ministers who were representing the Newfoundland Government, and they all agreed, 'If we can get $320 a ton for linerboard that would be a good price.' That would be wonderful. So off goes Mr. Kraft, who was on the board of directors of Labrador Linerboard, who a:lso owned the company who was marketing the linerboard, and they got $320 a ton plus $110, that is $430 a ton they got for linerboard·.

But did they give it all to the LineJ:board mill in Stephenville? No, Mr.Chairman. What they did was they said, 'Well, that crowd only want $320- we will keep the other $110 ourselves.' ,They gave $55 to the middleman and they put $55 in an offshore account in Bermuda or some other country. That i.s whAt happened. I am asking the hon. gentleman - let me go back over it again if rdf hon. colleague will permit me. 'l'he board of directors of Labrador Linerboard - Mr. Ingram, the manager of the mill was on that board of directors and Mr.

Rebert Kraft, who owned the company that marketed linerlloard was on that board of directors - they all qot together and they said, 'If we can get $320 a ton for lineJ:board that would be a very good price.' Is that not correct? Is that what happened. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • 3825

• May 24, 1979 MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: Mi\.. ·~= Tape 1491 I am asking the hon. gentleman. (Inaudible) • EC- 2 us the annual report of Labrador I.inerboard and the qovemmant have stonewalled and refused to qive. it to us. But let ma car.ry on with my trend of thought. Off qoes Mr. Kraft t:ben to the various countries of the world where they were marketing linerboard and said to the middleman, the bzoker, 'Give us $430 a ton for linerbaard.

That czowd of suckers in Newfo1mdland only want $320 and we will split the difference, you keep $55, we will take $55 and put it in an offshore acco1mt in the West Indies or in Ew:ope. ' Now, is that not what happened? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • CAPT. WINSOR: Have they investigated it? MR. NEARY: No, they have not investigated it, because I wrote the Superintendent of the RCMP here last week about the investigation and I discovered, much to my amazement, that it took. them six 1110nths to carry on an investigation in Canada. It is down South of the border the action was , not in canada. 5o there are still, Kr.

Chairman - and I could say a lot about that but I am qoing to say it in dua course­ there are a lot of facts, Sir, that have to come out about Labrador I.inerboard - a lot of facts, and we are not getting them. And now we are being backed up in a co:mer and a&k.ed to approve this bill clause by clause and we do not know what we are app:r:ovinq. MR. MARSHALL: You must. You called it a bad deal _so you must (inaudible) something. MR. NEARY: It is a bad deal, Sir. I.t ia a bad deal because, Mr.

Chai.l::!~Lul, let IIIB say to the hon. gentleman with all due respec:t . that there was no need for that mill to close. 'lhat mill. could be still operating, it could still be p:r:oducing linerboa.rd. 'lhere would be 1110re jobs. MR. MABsHAI.L: Not under (inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, under any company they could be producing linerboard - more jobs, no inte~tion in the mill. There was no need of giving it away to Abitibi for $45.5 million. 3826

• Ma,y 24, 1979 Tape 1491 EC- 3 MR. F. B. ROWE: 'lha Praier &dlllittad that takinq it o'ftr and. c:losinq it - Mil.~· a IIILstake. ~. I want to fiDd out bow much. of a ID.stake it wu. And it loolts like tbe qaftl:IID*lt ua qoinq to continue to stoMWaU and. t:bu:e i.a not IIIU¢l alsa we. can say about it except tha.t I. do bope, Mr. c:ha.izllan, tba.t the editorial wri.tezs, the ll8WSIIIIU1 in this P%ovince, will.

Jtaep this in the JlaQk of their llliDcis tha.t ban you h&va a go--t tha.t ia so arzoqant aDd has. so lllldl cantalapt for the pegple of this Province - and· they clai1ll they ue going' to be honest. and tlley u:e c;pinq to leVIU, but they are gainq to pick the thinqs pn Which. tbay ara goinq to be honest with tha peQple. '1'hey ue stanawaUinq and refusinq to 3827

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1492 GH-1 MR. NEARY: give the House any information on how that three to four hundred million dolLars was handled of taxpayers' money and all the mismanagement involved in it and all the skulduggery and all the corruption. That is what we want to know, Mr. Chai.rman, and I will keep repeating it over and over again. Han. members may not like it. I would like to find out, for instance, why Mr. Hans Swmen and Mr.

Erik Myer are now over in the comfortable pew in Zug in switzerland, thanks ~o the taxpayers of Newfoundland and Labrador, after ripping of three million dollars skimming it off through the sale of Labrador Linerboarn - skimming it off. One of these gentlemen worked for Stirling International, the company that I laid the documentation on the table of the House that was forced to put $55 a ton into Egret in Bermuda, Sitrling International of San Francisco.

One of the gentlemen who worked for that firm is now over with his own company; over in Zug in Switzerland, after skimming off three million dollars by getting his $55 a ton, splitting up the $110 - $55 for Mr. Kraft and his crowd and we do not know who they are, and $55 for the middleman. Mr. Chairman, I think we are entitled to have these facts in front of us before we make a fool of ourselves and I am going to keep at it, Sir, until I get the facts one way or another.

The other day I told the Minister of Justice I may be forced to go down in the court and get a writ of mandamus and force the Newfoundland Government to give us an accounting of that three or four hundred million dollars, of how it was spent, and give us an accounting of their stewardship for the four or five years that they operated Labrador Linerboard. Mr. Chairman, this foolish nonsense abou~ us holding up the bill, we are not holding up the bill. The people of Stephenville could have had a better deal than they are getting right now. There was no need of closing that mill in the first place.

They could have had a better deal and can probably still have a better deal. MR. ~HALL: (Inaudible) expert (inaudible) MR. NEARY: I am an expert on that, Sir. I know right from wrong. I know right from wrong. I know when the government is stonewalling. I know when the government 3828

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1492 GR-2 MR. NEARY: is refusing to give the people information, three or four hundred million dollars worth, and the Peoplt! of Staphtmvillc know· it a..1d they k.now what "'" arc t:.a:kin.;, about:, they know we are not holding up the bill, As I said in second reading of this bill, Mr. Chairman, I said then that r am really happy for the people in Stephenville but I am sorry for the people of Newfoundland, the taxpayers of this Province who were ripped off right, left and centre. Mr. Chairman, hon. gentlemen will have to take the responsibility.

They were the ones who set up this International Forest Product Company to market linerboard South of the border, incorporated down in Massachusetts. Why was it? Why was that done, Mr. Chairman? Why was it not given to a Newfoundland company?

Anyway, Sir, these are some of the questions that I would like to get questions to and if I am boring the hon. gentlemen or if I am boring the members of the press, I would lilte for them to ask themselves one question, "How much information have we gotten out of the government in connection with the spending of three or four hundred million dollars of taxpayer money?", and the answer will come back loud and clear that the Government House Leader merely told us that it cost $300 million to take over,complete and operate the Linerboard mill and that is enough for you to know.

That is what the gentleman told us the other day. Would that be enough for the hon. gentleman to know when he was on this side of the Rouse with all the stories and reports that are reaching our ears about the gross mismanagement involved in Labrador Linerboard? No, Mr. Chairman, and I am going to keep at it until I hound the life out of the hon. gentleman, until I get the information that I am looking for • carri-ed. MR. CHAIRMAN: on motion,

short title, Bill No.lS, On motion, clauses (1) and (2), carried. Shall clause (3), carry? Ron. member for Eagle River. 3829

May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1493 SD-1 MR. I. STRACHAN: On these clauses here - I want a ruling from the Chairman now - obviously the seetions that we are debating are stated here but. refer to the principal agreement. 'lhey refer, also, to the schedules md appendices wiU.ch are attached. can we , therefore, ge~ in and debate these appendices and the different thiDgs which are attached, the schedules attached and so on? I Is that allowed in Committee? MR. W. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) will carry the principal agreement so the teDII o! the principal agreement is now a matter of debate, as I understand it. MR. I.

STRACHAN~ It is now a matter of what? Mr. Chairman, could we get a ruling on it? I respect the House Leader's view but could we get a ruling on it? MR. CHAIRMAN (CROSS): Certainly in debating Clause 3 you would be able to debate the appendices in the agreement. MR. STRACHAN: You would? MR. CHAIRM.!IN: Yes. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Chai:cnan, I have no desire to delay the passage of this through the House.

I stili say that our • main.objections and the only objections we have in all these different agreements, in reading through them and trying to sift through them, our main objection is still an objection as laid forth by the member from Lapoile (Mr. Neary) that surely what we have been asking for is an accounting to know the value of the asset which is now bei.nq sold as of the sixteenth day of November, 1978. It is an agreement which - we are now debating sanething which has occur2ed. It has happened. It is over. With the passage of this bill, Labrador Linerboard will no longer exist.

I would imaqine the name will change •. Everythinq will change - Labrador Linerboard - and it will be something in the past, But what we are arguing about here is before it goes out of existence forever - and really on the sixteenth day O'f November, 1978, according to 3(2), then this principal agreement changes _forever the name of the operation, Labrador Liner}Y.)ard will no longer exist - what we have asked and what we 3830

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1493 GH-2 MR. STRACHAN: are asking for is an accountability of the assets of the operation. How can you est.imate whether it is a -;cod C.c.:::1l o::: a !;ad d~'i' · 'l'he Ho!OSe Leader !.ndJ.catea to us· th.at we know it cost $300 million, we know it was sold for $45.5 million, thez:efore, it must be,in this Province,a good deal, or we know enough to make up our minds whether it is a good deal or a · bad deal.

It is obvious in any company, and this is not just an ordinary private company, it is obvious that in any Crown corporation in which every lllltlllber of the public is a shareholder by vested right in this.f~ouse, that therefore they do require an accountability to this House , an accountability to the press and an accountability over the years as to where the $300 million has gone so that everyone can make up their miDds. Surely in a· Crown corporation there is even a greater onus on the directors of the corporation to make this available.

Surely we must see exactly what the assets are, what the assets are worth. Surely we must be able to determine exactly where the money has goneJ the 4.5 million obtained - before this agreement goes through and Labrador Linerboard now becomes defunct, a. dodo, SCIIIIething that is gone, finished - when this deal -s made on the sixteenth day of November, 1978, we must know this. It should be tabled in the House. we are not trying to stall the operation. Obviously it is to the benefit of the people of Stephenville. we have said that over and over again.

It is not to the benefit of the people of Happy Valley - Goose Bay and the people around there bee a.use what they have seen is something going up and something go down and collapse, so it is not to their benefit. But,olwiously, it is to the benefit of the ccmpany, Abitibi Price, to the people of Stephenville who are back working, and we are not arguing that whatsoilver. What we are arguing is that here is a. public corporation and we cannot be told where the money went, what the assets are worth, how the worth of the asset was ascertained.

What we have been told is that the $300 million asset is worth $45.5 million. We are given no 383j_

• .May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1493 Ga-3 z.m. STRACHAN: breakdown. we are given no statemults. we a:r;e qiven none of the finaneia1 st:atements, the accountabi.li-ty, a coii&O·lj;dateci balant:e sheet. we-ilave never ·l:Jeen q.iven· 4' ecms.:rUiiiii:ed b&lance sheet. · The Minister ~catas that it is not in existence the same a5 we hava for Hydro. Tbua is not one in existence or i:E it is, it has not been tabl.ed, . 38.32

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1494 IB-1 MR. STRACHAN: we have not seen it. We were given no breakdown, so how can we ascertain _the value of the _a$sat. information. What we are asked to do here is to agree that $45.5 million was a good price without knowing , us the shareholders and everyone in the Province being the shareholders in this corporation, without knowing the va.l.ue of the asset to ascertain whether $45.5 million is a good purchase price or a bad one. It probably was a fairly good deal under the circUIIIStances. It probably could be a good deal.

But how can we ascertain that on the 16th day of November, 1978 it was a good deal unless we know the value of the asset? We cannot know the value of the asset, exactly the same as any small company must indicate to its shareholders, we cannot know the va.l.ue of the asset unless we know exactly what was poured into the business, where the money was spent in the business, how it was spent, the depreciation, the whole expenses. We cannot ascertain, for instance, the gross profit, the figures shown from revenue.

We cannot work out the cost of sales • So how do we know what the value of the asset was unless we are given an accountability? It seems idiotic to me that small companies in this Province get penalized if time goes by,any more than six months beyond their financial year, and they cannot give an accountability for income tax purposes or for other purposes and here we have a public corporation which we have put $300 million into and we have not obtained an accountability. We do not know what the asset - MR. MAliSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN(Mr. Cross): A point of order has been raised. MR.

Mli.RSHALL: I do not really wish to interrupt the hen. member but I do think it is necessary, Mr. Chairman, for this procedure on bills to be se.t down once and for all. The hon. gentleman is now debating.With respect to the bill itself he has mentioned two or three times in his remarks, "How can we make the judgement?". Now, Your Honour allowed this type of debate to a limited extent to go on when we were considering Clause 1 and Clause 1 was the title of the bill. Perhaps 3833

May 24, 1979 Tape 1494 IB-2 MR. MARSHALL: there is, well there is justification for it if Your Honour makes on a clause by clause consideration of the bill itself at which time we debate details of the clause itself, whether the clause is properly expressed or properly expresses the intent or properly expresses the purposes determined when the bill passed second reading. I quote to Your Honour Beauchesne, the fif~ edition, to substantiate the point of order which I am now making and I think it is an important one that Your Honour will wish to consider.

Page 232, paraqraph 768, subsection (2). well I will have to read subsection (1) first to give sense to subsection (2), otherwise they will be out of context. "Before beginning its clause by clause study, the committee will usually call the sponsor of the bill and such witnesses, as it deems necessary, to give evidence upon the merits of the bill. "

(2) This debate on Clause 1 (if it is not the

short title) is normally wide ranging, covering all the principles and details • of the bill. " So this has been the procedure in Committee of the Whole. There is a distinction between Clause 1 which is the title of the bill and brings in all aspects of the bill itself and the other clauses. But, Mr. Chairman, if we are to get in the position where on each and every clause of a bill, in Committee stage, there is to be a debate on the principle of the bill itself which has already been determined, the work of this House will grind to such a slow pace that we will never accomplish anything.

In this case there happens to be five or six clauses. In addition to what went on in the House itself we will have six or seven separate debates on the principle of the bill. Now, I submit to Your Honour that it is accepted and it is authority and I have given Your Honour authority for it, that when yo~ are in Committee and certainly when you are off Clause 1 of the bill, the title itself, that we are in a situation when we are considering 3834

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1495 DW- 1 MR. W. MABSHALL: the details of that clause itself and remarks in debate wide-ranging on the principle of the bill itself is oompletely out of order. As I say, X do this not because of what the hon. gentleman is saying because in a sense he is rape4ting what was already said on Friday by him and the member for Lapoile (Mr. Neary). I think this is an i.J!Iportant point of order and one. which should be decided to detenlline the course of future. dealings in the Colllllitte. of the Whole. MR. I. STRACHAN: Mr. Chaiz:1111111, to that point of order. MR. CliAiliMAN: Han. -.iler. MR.

I. STRACHAN: Mr. Cb.aiman, obviously what the. House Leader has stated is obviously correct from Beauchesne.. But, obviously one can only apply that to this specific instance in front of us. if we consider the clauses which we are debating. And if we consider the clauses which we are debating now then the clauses obviously state that the principle agreement 3 (1) is now se.t forth, first in the appendix, and is now beblg ratified, confirmed and adopted from. that date, the 16th day of November 1 1978.

Surely what I am stating is that before we can approva this clause here) that we. are therefore ratifying, confirming nad adopting the principle agreement from that date, the 16th. day of Novemberr - surely 1 therefore 1if I cannot atjree that we have sufficient information obviously available to us then I cannot agree to ratify, confirm and adapt from the 16th. day of November the sale. of tha Labrador Li.nemoard mill for $45.5 million. Surely, the point that I &Ill raising is very pertinent ~ to the

section I am discussing. Maybe the rules are correct you are stating but surely one ~t, therefore 1 look. at the clauses that I am debating before one can rule me either in or out of order. MR. OIAIRMAN: (CBCSS) I' wil.l adjourn for five minutes before I make a ruling. RECESS MR. OIAIRMAN: Order, please! I feel I can make a ruling now on that point of order. As members will recall there was a like point of order that was b:roaght up on last Friday.~~~:~rninq and then I cited from Beauchesne 3835

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1495 DW- 2 MR. CHAIRMAN: page 220, paragraph 7l2, the third clause, it says, "In committee the details of a measure are the primary objects of consideration with alterations in its provisions being proposed." At that time I ruled the bon. !EIIIbar for LaPoila (Mr.Neary) out of order.Certainl.y we h&ve a very refined,possibly,point of order hare. If the han. member for Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan), certainly, was debating the sale of the li.nerboard mill and its conversion, if he is saying that he cannot aqraa with the sale of the linerboard lllill 1 whi.ch ._ already :been debated, then he would be out of order. I think what is happening here he is asking for additional information and debating Clause 3,real1y. and in that sense of the wo:rdinq he is asking for detail.s from Clause 3. We are close here to possibly being out of order. But he cannot say that he. oppo•es the sale of the linedloard mill because he has already agreed to it.

In first and second reading •.:he has already agreed to the principle of the bill. MR. I. STRAC!iAN: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. I. STRACHAN: Mr. Chai:z:man. Han. member. Mr. Chai:z:man, thank you very much. Of course, what I was deaatinq wag I am not opposed to the sale, I am not opposed to the principle of the bill 3836

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1496 GH-1 MR. STRACHAN: and I stated this again a number of times. I am not opposed to that at all and we could obviously s-conewal.l., belabor tile point; ~o ut1 a....lJ ~oJr~ Qn~ ask.. It i= ol::v!.='J.z that we are not going to get the information that we are looking for, but what basically we have asked for and I think it is ridiculous - we are standing here on a point of principle rather than anything else what we are asking for is what is the asset worth that we are asked now here to ratify? We have agreed with the principle of it. Let us sell the mill.

We have been told that to sell that mill on the sixteenth day of November, 1978, was in Clause (3) here, (3)iii, that that mill is worth or we are being offered a price of $45.5 million. we have been told that all the information we need is that it has cost $300 million to this Province. There is obviously a loss; you would say a loss; obviously it is a loss, if something has cost $300 million to the Province as a cost and therefore has a selling price of $45.5 million.

Basically what we are asking for is, "Can we have an accountability of the asset, the worth of the asset, what has gone into it, the financial statements so that we can decide whether under the circumstances that possibly even at that obvious loss of $45.5 million from $300 million that the sale is a good sale because it is the only way it could go through?" And we agreed to the principle that the mill had to be sold. What we are asking for here is basically an accountability. I am not going to belabor the point any longer, Mr. Chairman, or get involved in further points of order here.

I think that, as I stated before, there should be a limit to these through bills and so on, but there is a very serious point that I do not think we are getting across, that what we are being asked to do here is to agree to the sale of a mill which will become history as of the passing of these clauses without knowing the~tewardship, the accountability, the assets, without having financial statements in front of us to see exactly the position of the operation and to see whether the sale will be a good sale or a bad sale. . 3837

• Ma,y 24, 1979 Tape No. 1496 GH-2 MR. STRACHAN: If I was a shareholder in a company to be told what the House Leader has told us on Friday and again today that all ·we uaed to know is that w;c ha-.. ·e pou=ed ~JCC :dllior. i:ltc that operation and to ratify this principle here and this agreement here, all we need to know is that $300 million has gone in, we are getting $45.5 million for the sale of it and therefore we can make up our own minds whether it is a good deal or a bad deal. If that is the only information we have, then obviously it is a bad deal - MR. NEARY: That is all we have. MR.

STRAC!mN: - because it must be a bad deal. What we are asking for is, how can you justify - it is a good deal, there is obviously a great deal of circumstances, a great deal of operational costs and maintenance costs, depreciation, changes, renovations, etc., etc., and that is a very complex situation, so what we are asking for then is an accountability. It is obvious that the government is not intending to give us this accountability.

The Minister of Forestry, I believe, told us that we would not even get statements, simple statements, financial statements such as the Hydro put out in their operation here which is not even a breakdown, a tremendous good breakdown. It is not something that you want to go through with a finetoothed comb and then start breaking down again, but at least we do get consolidated balance sheets and statements. We have not been able to get one of these for the Linerboard mill. We are asked to agree that the sale go through. we have agreed in principle that the sale should go through.

Now, what we are trying to ask ourselves is whether what we are letting go through is good or bad. As far as the people of stephenville are concerned, it is good. As far as the Province i~ concerned, it is good. All we are asking for then is how come at $45.5 million this -is a good sale? And surely there is a principle involved. ' 3838

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1497 GH-1 MR. STRACHAN; It is obvious; I think it is amazing. I would not belong to a company which denied me access as a director statements. And what we are being asked to do here is belong to that kind of company. So, Mr. Chairman, I have no intention- I will not be speaking on the bill again - I have no intention to carry on arguing this point if we are not going to get the information. It is obviously not forthcoming. To me it is almost amazing that they can state this and I therefore conclude that the principle is good but has many clauses here which I totally disagree with. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Cross): Before we go on with further clauses, I wish to inform the House that I have been informed by the Speaker that there are no matters for debate on the late show this evening at 5:30. The hon. member for Burgee. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, we are on Clause 3(1) which seeks to ratify the agreement, the sale of the Linerboard mill • All of us, Mr. Chairman, in this House have already indicated that we are in full agreement with the principle embodied in this bill, namely, to provide for the ratification of the sale of the Labrador Linerboard mill and its conversion to a newsprint mill. That, Mr.

Chairman, should never be construed as meaning that we can endorse the detail·because we do not know the detail. The government have apparently made a deliberate decision not to tell us what the essential detail is. My colleague from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) has put a number of pertinent questions today about the kinds of things we would need to know. We have not got any answers. I am particularly disappointgd in the Minister of Finance hare who could give us some of these answers.

He has them, I am sure, at his fingertips or he has access to the answers, and I would appeal to him in particular to make some of these answers available to us. 383!)

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1497 GH-2 MR. SIMMONS: What is behind this particular agreement? We do not know. We really do not know - not being told - and I suggest, Mr. Chairman, ·deliberately not iJeing told. Are we to · construe citat: even !n negotiating the sale of a mill this government has bungled just as badly, not in the fact of the sale, Mr. Chairman. I am one of the first to say in this House that the sale is a good thing if only because it undoes that secret - not secret - that scandalous first act in taking over the mill.

That should never have been done and if for no other reason than it undoes that it is a good thing. It ~longs in private enterprise; should never have been taken out of private enterprise, but that, Mr. Chairman, should not gloss over, should not cover up the I clumsiness of the agreement. If it is that, let us find out. We do not know because they will not tell us any information. What have they got to hide, Mr. Chairman? What do they have to hide on this one?

Is it just clumsiness; is it just bad negotiating or did they sell out? were they so anxious to unload the mill that they sold out unconscionably to the degree that they cannot admit? Is it another example of the incompetent management at the political level that we saw during the period when the mill was under government management and ownership? Is it a continuation of that? What is our friend,, Dick Green's role in this particular agreement? That one I would like to know. What is he getting out of this particular agreement? He is the lawyer for Abitibi to begin with.

He is the PC bagman, now discredited, but also, Mr. Chairman, I understand that he has been spending some time over in Stephenville, bought up a number of properties over there just before this agreement was effected, a number of rental properties. He is one of the larger - Dick Green the Tory bagman, the lawyer for Abitibi is also one of the larger 3840

May 24, 1979 Tape 1498 IB-1 MR. SDmONS: rental real estate owners in Stephenville right now. MR. NEARY: The inside track. MR. SIMMONS: He obviously had the inside track on this one. He obviously knew a lot more about the details of the agreement than we are being told as elected members of this House, Mr. Chairman. And that galls me a bit, Mr. Chairman, that a private citizen because he has the right political label can have access to the information and I, an elected member of the House representing the people of this Province, cannot get the information not because it is not available, Mr.

Chairman, but because I am of the wrong stripe politically, because I sit on the wrong side of the House intne view of those who sit on the information, Wei are not asking for any great-dark secret bits of information, we are asking for some information that ought to have · been compiled and ought to be in the government's interest to make public. I cannot have it but Dick Green can have it, can have it well before the fact of this agreement so he can get out and line his own • pockets by buying up some real esate out in Stephenville, a fair amount of it.

I am told that right now he is one of the larger, in terms of dollar value of real estate, one of the larger owners of real estate rental properties in the Stephenville area. I am also told that he bought all of it within four or five months before this agreement ' ' came into effect o'r before this agreement was effected, beiore the date-- of November, 1978. Within a few months he moved very quickly and bought himself a fair amount of real estate which he is now rather successfully renting to Abitibi people and Abitibi related people. He had the information, Mr. Chairman. He had no trouble getting it.

We are having a fair amount of trouble on this side of the House. Now, Mr. Chairman, earlier some speakers - I will not get into particular names because it was a general chant from the other side of the House - a number of speakers were suggesting that somehow we on this side were against the bill. No, we are not against the bill. We are very much for the bill which would hand this property back to private enterprise. We are against the 384:1 I ! ! ! . i

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1498 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: sec:reti veness of the deal. We may well be against some of the details W: tho:~ ua.U. i.E - c:oulci onl.y know wilat tile decail.s -re.

I put ·my fiJ19er on one detail which is known. 'l'he government • s own asseSSillell.t of the value of the iaill, the governaent' s own assessment tabled in this House a year or so aqo indicate& that the scrap val.ue - tho.se are the words in the gcvernment docwaent - the scrap value of the illill back in 1977 was $65 lllillion. 'l'hat was the scrap value. '!hat is if you toQk the thing and just diSllliUltled it and sold it bit by bit to scrap dealers,as it were, you would have $65 million in t:,h.e pocket. MR. REAllY: One machine alone in that lllill was worth $100 million. MR.

SIMMONS: And they sell it off for $45 million. They are going to have to ta]Jc a lot longer and a lot harder, Mr. Chairman, before they convince me or convince anybody else that they oould not have qotten a better deal than that. You see, Mr. Chairman, that is where we are at a disadvantage . Abitibi may have gOod reason to be.lieve that $45 million is a fair amount of cash to lay out1 depend:i11g on what else they had to lay out and where, and that is what I would like to know. What is this mill really costing Abitibi? Is it just . 3842

May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1499 ow- l MR. R. SI.MKlNS: $45 • 5 mil.li.on or we:re the:re certil.in other obligations on Abitibi 1 the kind of obligations that were put on Scr:.WDC: ; over the:re; Remember that one? Front door - X dollars; back door - Y dollars. That was the deal with Scrivener. Tell us the whole deal if you have nothing to hide. Tell us the deal! $45. 5 million front door, how much back door? MR. S • NEARY: Well, it was anouqh. to buy out EPA. We will ~ to that one later on. MR. R. SIMMONS: What is the deal? We cannot blame Abitibi, Mr. Chaizman. They saw a gggd thing.

They know a good thing when they sea it and they grabbed it. They happen to be very good corporate citizens. They have dona very well. Let us not fool ourselve~ they are in the business of lllllking 1110ney. That is what they are in the business for and-. anybody who tries to pretend that they are in the business for ar.y other reason is somewhat begging the question. They a:re in the f:ree ma~et system, the free enterprise system~ they are in it to DIUe • 1110ney. But, their :record as corporate records go is not that bad in Canada but that does not mean they do not know where the bargain basement sales are.

They keep track of th8111 and they found this one and they grabbed it up. Nor did it come u a real surp~ise to Abitibi that this one was ' gcing to be on the market. I submit, Mr.

Cbatrman, that if you look at the pattern .: of Abitibi's involvement in this line:l:board, the day it was taken over by government throuqh the period when the Advisory Committees were appoi.nted 1 keeping in mind Abitibi ' s :representation on those coati. ttees, Abitibi from the very beginning, with government help and assiatanca, aided and ilbetted by government, if you like, Abitibi had the inside track on this one all the while • Indeed 7 if I were in the market to purchase an asset 1 u unfair as it might seem- I will put it to you this way -I 100uld . have the best chance of getting a bargain on tha asset if I could have a chance for a year or two to depreciate the asset first to,say 1 superficially 3843

• May 24, 1979 Tape No. 1499 ow - 2 MR. R. SIMMONS: depreciate the asset, tell the country tel.l the world it is not worth anything, tell everybody it has to close down, go through the motians of depreciating the asset so then I can buy it at a buqain basement price. The sin would not be mine, the sin would be the owners of the mill who allowed 1:1e to do that, wba would put DB in a position to be able to do it. The blame, Mr.

Chairman, if the best price the government could command is $45 million on this one, the blame rests at the door of the gove%IIIII8Jlt for allowing competitorsiin the paper business 1 like Abitibi, like Bowater, to have an input in vital decis.iona about taking over the mill, about closing down the mill, about converting the mill. 'rhey had a vested interest, they had a conflict of interest fzom the very beqinni.nq and they should 1 of course, never been involved in that particular role. My point in ra.isi.nq it, Mr.

Chairman, is that from dq one if Abitibi had an overall strategy to acqui~r:e the mill at some point down the road, they were certainly in a positicm from day one too affect an acquisition at the cheapest, the lowest possillle. price. You have to take your hat off to them for being so successful in getting the price so low. What other prices, Mr. Cllairman, have they been obliged to pay? We cannot get the questions. We. cannot get the answers. We can only speculate. 3844

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1500 IB-1 MR. SIMMONS: If we speculate wildly at times, Mr. Chairman, which I do not think I am doing right now, if we do it is because the government again refuses to give us some pertinent answers 6n this particular point. I believe, Mr. Chair.man, before we clue up the debate on Clause 3 I believe my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, has a few words he would like to say on it. So I will have a listen to what he is going to say and I may well raise one or two other questions.

But I do appeal to the Minister of Finance to level with the House on this one and· to give us some answers to the questions which have been raised by my colleague, the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan). MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Cross): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, Clause 3 is the clause of course whereby the agreement is ratified 1 it is the operative clause. We in this House,! suppose,unanimously voted in favour of the principle of the bill but we also mentioned at the time that we would be questioning seriously some of the ramifications of the bill.

Now my colleagues have stated various objections and I am not going to delay the House at all now1 I would simply like to repeat, to reiterate something which I said during the debate on second reading. Like my colleague from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) I am very surprised that the media has not picked this up a little more, namely that we are asked to ratify an agreement and we do not know what the agreement is, Mr. Chairman.

We see the wording of the agreement in the appendix to the bill but there are so many items which Abitibi Paper Company is privy toJas one of the signatories to this bill, to this agreement rather, yet we in the House of Assembly are not privy to those items and we are asked to ratify the agreement as it is set out in the bill itself with some essential items left out altogether, we have no knowledge of. Mr • Chairman, I consider that to be the most contemptible use of this House ever perpetrated by a government in t.'l.is Province . 3845

• May 24, 1979 Tape 1500 MR. W. ROWE: New the hen. minister concerned was good enough to send over to me some financial statements concernina the operation of the Linerboard Mill over a number of years; general financial statements, an auditor's report and financial statements which gives the general financial standing over the years, and the last one I believe was the year ended March 31, 1978. That gives us some information. I am surprised that it was not tabled beforehand, Sir.

But there are many other items as well which form an essential part of this agreement which the hen. the minister and the government generally do not see fit to table in this House. Now, why would they not, Mr. Chairman? There are a number of schedules to the agreement, LLL-1 through to 7 or B,I believe,in which we see that Abitibi Company is taking over certain benefits of the mill and the government is assuming certain liabilities . We have reference to outstanding legal actions against the Linerboard Mill. What 11re they, f·1