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December 6, 2017

41st Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2017-Dec-06 (PDF)

L132 - Wed 6 Dec 2017 / Mer 6 déc 2017

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 6 December 2017 Mercredi 6 décembre 2017

Strengthening Protection for Ontario Consumers Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur le renforcement de la protection des consommateurs ontariens

Introduction of Visitors

Wearing of pins

Visitors

Oral Questions

Energy policies

Northern transportation

Energy policies

Energy policies

Minimum wage

Government advertising

Violence against women

Highway safety

Group homes

Landlords

Economic development

Group homes

Liquor licensing

Hospital funding

Visitors

Annual report, Auditor General

Introduction of Visitors

Financial statements, Auditor General

Members’ Statements

Northern Ontario

Violence against women

Co-operative movement / Mouvement coopératif

Violence against women

Energy policies

Maureen Prinsloo

Diagnostic services

Community newspapers

Long-term care

Reports by Committees

Standing Committee on Public Accounts

Standing Committee on Regulations and Private Bills

Introduction of Bills

Co-operative Corporations Amendment Act (Audit Exemptions and limits to Non-member Business), 2017 / Loi de 2017 modifiant la

Loi sur les sociétés coopératives (dispenses de vérification et plafonnement du volume d’affaires réalisé avec des non-membres)

608524 Ontario Inc. Act, 2017

Statements by the Ministry and Responses

National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women

Petitions

Landfill

Pharmacare

Services for persons with disabilities

Child care

Curriculum

School closures

Long-term care

Employment standards

Highway improvement

Long-term care

Employment standards

Guide and service animals

Orders of the Day

Building Better Communities and Conserving Watersheds Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 visant à bâtir de meilleures collectivités et à protéger les bassins hydrographiques

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Strengthening Protection for Ontario Consumers Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur le renforcement de la protection des consommateurs ontariens

Mr. Naqvi, on behalf of Ms. MacCharles, moved third reading of the following bill:

Bill 166,

An Act to amend or repeal various Acts and to enact three new Acts with respect to the construction of new homes and ticket sales for events / Projet de loi 166, Loi modifiant ou abrogeant diverses lois et édictant trois nouvelles lois en ce qui concerne la construction de logements neufs et la vente de billets d’événements.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, I believe that the parliamentary assistant for the minister will be making her remarks later in the debate.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Mr. Jim McDonell: It is a pleasure to offer my final remarks on Bill 166 as it comes to third reading before us. I participated in the committee hearings both during the public deputations on the bill and of course during the clause-by-clause consideration. The concerns of the PC caucus and many stakeholders who warned of the failure of this bill to address key issues in the industry it affects have gone unaddressed by the government. It is only right for us at this point in time to point out some of these issues before the government proclaims this bill into legislation.

First and foremost, the portions of Bill 166 that reform new home warranties in Ontario only reflect some of the outcomes of the Cunningham report. Justice Cunningham was commissioned by this government to look into Tarion and the administration of new home warranties. The minister at the time seemed to want to predetermine the review’s outcome when he said they expected the review to find Tarion doing a good job and meeting expectations of protecting consumers. To say he missed the mark would have been an understatement. Justice Cunningham built an unassailable argument that Tarion was not doing its job and was beset by a persuasive conflict of loyalties arising from its structure.

It was the only avenue for new home builders to be licensed and for consumers to receive compensation for shoddy building work. As the administrative authority, Tarion had the majority of its board of directors composed of the same people it regulated, licensed and from whose common warranty fund it paid consumers who complained about the builders’ work.

Tarion wore too many hats, out of sight of the government, that for over a decade allowed Tarion to drift apart from government leadership and oversight. It was shielded from key accountability legislation, including such measures as the Auditor General’s oversight, which the government rejected again when they had the opportunity to insert it into Tarion’s governing legislation during the clause-by-clause.

Tarion, like any other administrative authority within this ministry, mandates that businesses practicing in the field it regulates become members and pay substantial fees to the regulator. Membership of Tarion is not by choice and any agency with such a captive constituency should be made transparent and accountable.

Justice Cunningham hit the nail on the head when he recommended removing part of Tarion’s mandate, to begin expunging the conflict of loyalties that existed within it. Under Bill 166, the decisions regarding warranty payouts will be made—

Mr. Taras Natyshak: Point of order.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Point of order.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: Speaker, I’d like to know if we have a quorum.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Clerks’ table?

The Clerk-at-the-Table (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): Speaker, a quorum is not present.

The Acting Speaker ordered the bells rung.

The Clerk-at-the-Table (Ms. Valerie Quioc Lim): Speaker, a quorum is present.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Continue, the member from Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry.

Mr. Jim McDonell: Under Bill 166, the decisions regarding warranty payouts will be made by another agency, to be designated at a later date, while Tarion or another corporation will take over as the regulator of the building industry. We agree with that.

What we disagree with is the way the government decided to neutralize most other suggestions brought forward by the report. The justice stated very clearly that new home warranties are not a natural monopoly and therefore should be opened up for private sector insurers, as we’ve seen done in the western provinces with great success.

The justice also put great emphasis on independent dispute resolution when disputes surrounding a home warranty payment arise. The reason for this is clear: The warranty authority collects money from builders for the warranty fund, and has an interest in preserving this fund and, thus, to minimize the payouts out of it.

This was a major consumer complaint against Tarion itself. It spent so much energy arguing and frustrating consumer complaints that people gave up, due to the time and costs involved in actually having their rights enforced.

You cannot have a truly impartial warranty system without an independent adjudicator. Fighting the warranty authority’s argument for denying a claim should not be done by assessing whose legal pockets are the deepest but by assessing whose argument is the strongest.

Justice Cunningham laid out a well-thought-out framework. When disputes with the warranty authority arise, the matter would be referred to independent dispute resolution, and the appointed mediator or arbitrator would be able to hire an independent expert to ascertain the facts around the claim and have the costs borne by the authority.

The government implemented no part of this dispute resolution framework. The only nod to it was a provision that allows the authority to offer alternative dispute resolution if it so wishes.

The authority’s ability to raise and retain funds is significant. There is no reason for them to opt for a cheaper and more consumer-friendly dispute resolution process when the default option is action at the Licence Appeal Tribunal and the courts, where litigants, especially self-represented ones, are at a disadvantage.

The government’s inaction on most of Justice Cunningham’s recommendations is deplorable enough, but the method by which they worked to suppress the justice’s report and its guidance compounds the problem.

Reviews by independent professionals often find hidden and not-so-hidden flaws in agencies and programs that the government would rather not be revealed. When such damning reviews come out and recommend change, the government of the day has two options: Adopt the change, or reject the change. They hold the ultimate power, as is proper to the majority of democratically elected representatives, to say yes or no, and they owe it to Ontarians to state such a position clearly.

For all his flaws, the former Minister of Health, George Smitherman, embodies on the government side the positive trait of owning up to exercising government discretion. When the Sharkey report recommended a minimum standard of care, he explicitly said no and took upon himself, as the minister responsible, the consequences of such a policy decision.

This crop of ministers is different. Instead of saying no, they outsource their responsibility to be accountable to Ontarians to a hand-picked, secretive working group. We heard from the only consumer on the group, on the record, during committee. We heard of the outright dismissal of the justice’s recommendations, the swearing of participants to secrecy, and the pervasive atmosphere of a preordained outcome completely alien to the spirit of the justice’s proposals.

The government cannot hide its neglect of the Cunningham recommendations behind the working group’s smokescreen. They did not want Tarion changed. They did not want its flaws aired out for all to see, and when the report hit them like a ton of bricks, they sought to control the fallout and preserve whatever benefits of the old system they could.

The PC caucus submitted reasonable amendments to address the lack of accountability, the lack of competition and the lack of independent dispute resolution mechanisms in Bill 166’s reform of Tarion. All of our amendments were in the spirit of the justice’s desired direction for new home warranties in Ontario, and all of our amendments could be adopted without compromising the government’s focus on keeping the monopoly system for the time being.

Our amendments concerning enrolment of new homes and builds in the plan sought to ensure that the government-mandated plan could continue to exist, and certain private insurers’ plans could be designated by regulation as equivalent and thus eligible to compete with it in the future. If the government chose not to allow private insurers into the market, it could simply fail to pass the regulations enabling the private sector provision of home warranties and leave the framework a monopoly, as it would have been anyway.

Justice Cunningham recommended that Ontario follow the lead of the three western provinces where home warranties are not a government monopoly. We agreed that it was time to enable a future government to undertake such a transition. The present government, instead, chose to reject the amendment outright.

Unlike administrative authorities, insurance companies are subject to strict oversight by financial regulators, have very stringent capitalization and solvency requirements, and are subject to dispute resolution mechanisms that are far superior to those proposed in this bill for the warranty authority. Moreover, insurers are subject to an independent ombudsman service, unlike the warranty authority whose ombudsman will be internal.

I received a copy of the General Insurance OmbudService annual report in the mail this week, and I read through it to examine how they handle cases where there are disputes between the consumer and the insurer. I found a particularly interesting case. It’s very representative, as it concerns buildings, repairs and proper service. We have case study 3, and I’ll just read part of the resolution.

“The insurer initially questioned whether the mould was caused by the improper repairs, or was a pre-existing condition and not caused by the sewer backup. Also they questioned their responsibility for the actions of the restoration contractor.

“The case escalated to mediation, where further investigation confirmed that there was no pre-existing mould, and that this was caused by the initial work of the restoration contractor. An agreement was reached during mediation resulting in the insurer paying an additional amount above the policy limit for sewer backup. This also reflected the obligation an insurer has to ensure that repairs done on its behalf by a contractor must be done correctly.”

It just goes to show that in the insurance industry, there is a system that protects the consumer, unlike what we’re seeing here in this government’s Bill 166.

That’s a dispute resolution system we can support. It is a pity that the government would not give Ontario consumers that option.

We submitted a further amendment that would have given consumers the upper hand when deciding whether to resolve a dispute independently or through the Licence Appeal Tribunal and the courts.

Participants in the Cunningham review highlighted the depth of their distrust of Tarion, its procedures and its officers. It was incumbent upon this government to give consumers a dispute resolution process that they could trust, which the government failed to do. Leaving independent dispute resolution as a gift of the warranty authority, rather than as a consumer’s right, does nothing to help restore trust in a system that has been beset by conflict and distrust for decades.

Other opposition amendments that the government chose to reject included specific oversight and transparency measures for both the builder regulator and the warranty authority, including making them subject to freedom-of-information requests. Freedom of information is an essential tool for transparency, allowing the members of the public and the media to peel away the veil of secrecy that surrounds many government decisions.

When such decisions, including regulation-making powers, are outsourced to an arm’s-length agency such as Tarion, the TSSA, the ESA and other delegated authorities, the need for transparency becomes even more urgent.

After the Cunningham report was released, the Minister of Government and Consumer Services admitted that Tarion had drifted too far away from government oversight and leadership, appropriating to itself prerogatives and mandates that should belong to the government alone.

It would be too easy to blame the situation that Justice Cunningham uncovered at Tarion on Tarion itself, the industry, its stakeholders or someone else, yet this issue was allowed to simmer and grow over the course of many years of a failure by this government to reign in self-regulating agencies and to listen to the many complaints by consumer advocates and licensees alike.

During my tenure as critic of this portfolio, I have met with stakeholders who have said in no uncertain terms that the delegated agencies were either not doing their job or keeping everybody in the dark about how they actually administrated the delegated legislation. Meanwhile, the agencies continue to exact high membership and compliance fees with little or no transparency on how they are to be spent.

Those among the insiders who are willing to speak off the record would often confirm the need for reform and for transparency yet also concede that such initiatives would not go far in the current legislative climate. This was an abdication of leadership by a government that has forgotten that when it comes to industrial self-regulation, the prerogative to lead, instruct and direct rests with the government.

Complaints about the way Tarion was managed and operated had been pouring in for years, yet the government’s talking points on the beginning of the Cunningham review endorsed the status quo—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I’d just like to remind the member from Niagara Falls that when he enters the chamber and leaves he is supposed to acknowledge the Chair.

Mr. Wayne Gates: Thank you. I appreciate that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you.

Mr. Jim McDonell: Complaints about the way Tarion was managed and operated had been pouring in for years, yet the government’s talking points at the beginning of the Cunningham review endorsed the status quo. Someone was clearly out of the loop.

How the government manages the transition from Tarion to the new regulator and warranty provider model will determine whether this model will succeed or not. They have taken a modest lead in splitting Tarion in the future and restoring control over Tarion’s regulation-making powers in the interim, but just passing legislation is not enough. There will need to be a constant vigilance by the government on consumers’ behalf to ensure that the new authorities comply with the mandate and act in accordance with the public interest principles they are supposed to serve.

Ontario’s economy as well as economies across the world depend on a healthy construction sector. Aging housing stock needs to be replaced, desirable communities need to welcome new residents, and rental and new ownership supply in the GTA needs to be greatly enhanced. All of these objectives require strong builders and confident consumers. We can’t have either without a trusted regulator and a trusted warranty framework that would assure consumers that their largest investment is safe.

The government’s proposals on Tarion reform fall dramatically short of the reforms contemplated by Justice Cunningham and of consumers’ expectations. Through the committee, we proposed a number of amendments to achieve what we believe to be the bare minimum of an acceptable solution to Tarion’s shortcomings. The government defeated all of these amendments.

Bill 166 also makes sweeping changes to the entertainment industry in Ontario, and I would like to dedicate a few moments to examining the potential unintended consequences of the new Ticket Sales Act, as outlined in Bill 166.

The government took action on ticket selling several times, most recently by relaxing regulations under the Ticket Speculation Act to permit the resale of tickets above face value. The reason behind this action was clear: if legal resale avenues are, by law, less profitable for the ticket holder than the underground market—often operated through cash, in-person, unverified and unverifiable transactions—the majority of tickets in search of another owner will gravitate towards the market where no price caps are in effect.

Beyond concerns regarding new ticket-buying technology and fairness, event tickets are no different from any other good for which there is a limited supply and demand that far outstrips it. Many fans are willing to pay prices far above those charged by event organizers and artists. In this reality, ticket resale becomes a profitable business for those with the technology and the time to sweep up large quantities of desirable tickets for the sole purpose of diverting them to a secondary market.

Let’s agree on one principle: Event tickets are not an investment security that one buys with the hope of selling for a profit. The secondary market for tickets exists ostensibly to serve certain very identifiable demographics. First, there is the consumer who can’t attend the event they planned to be at for whatever reason. The second category is holders of so-called holdback tickets who need to get rid of them.

Holdbacks are a constant point of contention amongst advocates for consumer interests in the ticketing industry and major event organizers. A holdback is a ticket that isn’t put up for sale, but given to an artist or sponsor, a radio station, a mobile operator, a charity, a credit card company or some other entity for distribution.

The reasons for holding back tickets are numerous, and often many of them are legitimate. The issue lies in the quantity and proportion of the holdbacks. If I am an average consumer looking to purchase a ticket to an event, I would prefer to know whether I have a better chance of getting a ticket by waiting patiently at my computer for the tickets to go on sale, or whether I am better off buying through my credit card company or calling the radio station.

Some events reported that up to 75% of the tickets had gone on pre-sale or pre-distribution outside ordinary public sales, creating an artificial shortage of tickets that could be bought by actual fans. We heard clear requests from stakeholders in the ticket industry to disclose the actual number of tickets that will be put up for sale. This would serve two purposes. First, it would strengthen the principle of transparency in ticket sales by ensuring consumers know how many tickets will be available from the primary seller. Second, it would serve as a deterrent to the event organizers from holding back what many consumers would consider an unreasonable amount of tickets.

The government seemed to be on the right track when they drafted such a provision in Bill 166. The objections to this transparency measure came primarily from large event organizers, whose arguments were found, quite frankly, less than convincing. Ticket-buying bots perform thousands, if not millions, of operations per second, and future computing power increases are likely to bring this speed up even further. The seating charts for venues are well known and publicly available on platforms like Ticketmaster, even before the tickets go on sale.

Whether an organizer discloses how many or which tickets go on sale or don’t go on sale, a millisecond-long attempt at buying a ticket is all a bot needs. If it fails because a ticket is not available, the bot simply moves on before you or I had the opportunity to even think about it.

Bots are the problem. Bulk-buying practices are the problem.

As Bill 166 made its way through the Legislature, the CBC ran several stories regarding people who allegedly made massive profits by bulk-buying event tickets and reselling them for several times their face value. When the Tragically Hip announced their 2016 tour, which turned out to be their last with Gord Downie, tickets were sold out in fractions of a second and then promptly reappeared on the secondary market.

What can we learn from these events? First, the obvious conclusion is that someone who held onto a ticket for seconds or minutes before putting it up for resale never intended to actually go to the event in the first place. These tickets were bought solely for the purpose of resale. This is a business and therefore taxable and subject to strict auditing rules, which bulk-buyers do not comply with, and it’s an unfair practice at the same time.

The government can pursue these scalpers in all but name through existing legal channels, such as business tax evasion; through new channels, such as banning the use of bots; or by giving primary sellers or artists the tools to nix these behaviours themselves. Bulk-buying robs fans of the fair choice to buy a ticket at fair value and leaves traces, which I mentioned in my leadoff remarks during second reading. I will touch on them again today since none of them were addressed by the government during the amendment stage.

Digital traces can include very similar Internet protocol addresses used for transactions, the same credit card or multiple credit cards registered to the same billing address, a shortened timespan between the primary purchase and listing on the secondary market, and frequent transactions unlike those of an occasional consumer, season ticket holder, the most loyal fans or others.

The take-home message is that whatever means of bulk-buying tickets this government chooses to forbid, the scalpers will find a way to bypass the legislation. The process of drafting, revising and implementing new regulations is slow and cumbersome and can’t be expected to keep pace with developing technology driven by very fast and very reliable profits.

What we need is a primary ticket marketplace that has the power to enforce ticket-buying equity, and decisively. When tickets sell out in a matter of seconds to purchasers exhibiting a pattern of bulk buying, primary sellers should have the option of cancelling the sale and depriving the scalper of his or her goods.

All the government needs is to provide them with the confidence of legal backing should the inevitable disputes arise with disappointed profiteers. We had an amendment to that effect, a PC motion the government dismissed without so much as a word of debate. Our motion would have made it clear that if you buy in bulk and your tickets are cancelled, you would have no recourse against the primary seller when enforced.

Another amendment concerned disclosure of the seller’s identity, something stakeholders pointed out to be fraught with risk if individual consumers and average fans were caught up in the net. Selling a ticket through a reputable secondary ticket platform involves a certain degree of trust and mutual guarantees, especially on the part of the secondary platform, which ensures that the purchaser does not get defrauded.

If an individual consumer wishes to sell an unused ticket, their name and contact details have no importance to the final purchaser as this transaction is one of those for which the secondary ticketing framework exists. As long as the secondary platform ascertains the seller’s identity, that the seller is indeed a consumer and not someone who makes a business of selling tickets on the secondary market, then disclosing the contact information to the final buyer has no impact on the security or the trustworthiness of the transaction.

If, on the other hand, the seller is a high-volume seller or a corporation that is doing business in the ticketing industry, then the final buyer deserves to know their ticket comes from someone who is neither the primary seller—i.e., the event venue—or the average consumer, such as you and me.

The government did not even consider these arguments, sat in silence, and voted against the amendment. In committee, the government members went as far as voting against amendments that would have given them flexibility in the face of the inevitable unintended consequences of this legislation. Experience in other jurisdictions shows that price caps do not work, and Ontario will be no different.

People in possession of a ticket that they do not wish to use will still be able to get top dollar for it. It makes no sense to forgo a profit by going through a legitimate online marketplace when, in reality, most scalpers on the street corner will give the ticket owner more money for the ticket in untraceable cash. The consequence of this behaviour will be the emergence of a much stronger unregulated market for tickets, with the potential for increased fraud.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Stop the clock, please. I will just remind the member from Timmins–James Bay that when he came into the chamber, he did not acknowledge the Chair. When he walked in front of the Chair over to the minister, he didn’t acknowledge the Chair. When I stood up, he finally acknowledged the Chair. So please acknowledge the Chair.

Continue.

Mr. Jim McDonell: Thank you, Speaker. The consequence of this behaviour will be the emergence of a much stronger unregulated market for tickets, with the potential for increased fraud. Price controls can create two things: shortages and black markets, and sometimes both. Consumers deserve better from the government, but this government is burning bridges that it would need for the retreat.

The price cap is being set in stone in this bill, rather than being prescribed. It is a dramatic reversal from this government’s general attitude to consumer legislation that would defer everything to regulations issued at the minister’s office. If a price cap is shown to not work as intended, the government will likely have to submit rushed legislation to soften the cap or remove it altogether. The process can take weeks or months, as proceedings in the chamber show quite clearly. Our amendments sought to give the government a way out of this predicament. We understand their intention to impose a price cap: It is popular and it looks decisive. It is also unlikely to work.

Had our amendment passed, the government, upon realizing their miscalculation, could have issued appropriate regulations to address the issue and adjust the price cap to a level that satisfied market demand for the ticketed events. Instead, the government voted the amendment down.

I gave you the example of the Air Canada Centre, where I tried to buy tickets a couple of years ago. I went to theaircanadacentre.com website and found, on checking out, that it’s actually in American dollars, with a fairly hefty delivery fee from Chicago. One would not expect theaircanadacentre.com to be an American company, but that’s the type of thing that happens with the Internet.

There is one good provision of the Ticket Sales Act: Everyone, bar none, agrees that the use of ticket-buying bots should be banned. Ticket sale websites use validation procedures such as CAPTCHA to prove that we are human before allowing us to make a transaction. Such a system that is designed to bypass this guarantee of an equitable ticket-buying process or any other guarantee to the same has no place in Ontario.

This ban runs into immediate limitation, acknowledged even by the Attorney General’s own counsel present at the committee. Ontarians are not the only innovators in technology, and we are by far not the only consumers or businesses with computers. Ticket sales for events across the world are transacted across national and language lines, and enforcing Ontario bans abroad is an unrealistic proposition.

An unscrupulous scalper could be operating from some modern tech headquarters in a country with a weak rule of law and reselling bulk-bought tickets through a ticketing platform’s headquarters in the US or operated from the cloud, making enforcement all but impossible. This is another story of good intentions running amok into the brick wall of a high-tech, globalized reality.

The Ontario PC caucus supports an equitable ticket-buying process, and we would have supported good policies to that effect. What this government is about to create instead is a flourishing black market for tickets where consumers will be as protected from fraud as they are protected today from outrageous price inflation from the secondary market, i.e., not at all. We stand for getting policy right. The government instead is looking to win the next election, with little regard for what may come afterwards.

The solution to rampant, large-volume buying of event tickets for profit is a strong co-operation between the artist, organizers, primary sellers and secondary ticketing platforms to ensure only the intended clients use these tools. Ticket buying for profit should not be a business. Tickets can be purchased for distribution across a network of concierges, for instance, or for inclusion in a tour package. These are legitimate uses that do not involve a simple business proposition of buying tickets and reselling them at three times the value.

Moreover, such arrangements should be negotiated with the event organizers and these tickets issued as a proportion of the holdbacks, not sniped from consumers waiting for the minute tickets go on sale. Bulk buying is unfair to consumers as it is unfair to artists, who see none of the benefits of the great demand for tickets for their shows. It is a wealth transfer on a massive scale to people who have no business in entertainment and potentially to financial havens with lax tax regimes.

The Tragically Hip debacle gave the government the impetus to look at ticket sales in Ontario and to fix the system to make it fair for fans. They managed to reduce the transparency in the process and potentially lay the groundwork to return to the black market. We cannot stand for this.

Speaker, I know my time is up, as I have another colleague who wants to speak on this. The government has failed to bring this legislation to a level that we feel will protect the interests of Ontarians or ticket buyers. We will not be supporting this bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Mr. Wayne Gates: I’m glad to rise and speak on Bill 166. I think this is the end of speaking on the bill. Thank you for allowing me to rise and speak today on third reading of Bill 166.

We’ve done a lot of work on this bill, and there has been a lot of input to get us to where we are today. There are a few aspects of this bill, the Tarion portion and the ticket portion, where we see some successes but also some serious flaws. I’m going to go over those today.

What I can really say here is that the Liberals missed a very good opportunity to fix a serious problem in the province of Ontario. These are not opportunities they didn’t hear about. They missed chances to correct the wrongs that have been occurring and will continue to occur in the province of Ontario. While moving forward on these topics is absolutely important, I am just let down that so much evidence and thoughtful work that was provided to them was ultimately missed.

I’m going to start with the biggest portion of this bill and the part of this bill that has likely received the most media attention: Tarion reform.

Let me start with the biggest item that was left out of the bill, and that is a focus on protecting consumers who buy newly built homes. That’s what this was supposed to be about: protecting consumers.

Winter is coming on, and anyone who has spent some time outside knows that the weather is getting colder. This is the time of year when we begin to hear a lot of complaints about Tarion. That’s because the wind gets colder and starts rushing through people’s homes, and that’s when they realize they bought a new home that wasn’t properly built.

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Timmins–James Bay is warned.

Go ahead.

Mr. Wayne Gates: So they turn to Tarion, or they try to fight to get their property fixed properly, and they run into the failing system that exists today and, quite frankly, has existed for a number of years in the province of Ontario.

When we’re talking about what I’m going to talk about today, I want you to think about that situation as it gets colder. Imagine your kids are at home, freezing in the brand new home you just paid a fortune to buy. Or maybe it’s worse; maybe there is leaking occurring in the house, and the basement is entirely covered in mould. Maybe it’s cold; maybe it smells bad. Either way, the one place you’re supposed to be comfortable becomes a nightmare to live in every day.

You haven’t done anything wrong. All you’ve done is work hard your entire life, save enough money and buy a house.

So when a government sees a situation like this, how do they not take the side of the consumer, the side of the family and, quite frankly, the side of the community? How do they see people losing their livelihoods and bankrupting themselves trying to get justice, and decide not to act? How do they see a situation like that and not use every tool in their power to right this awful wrong?

These stories aren’t new in this place. The PCs have been hearing them, the Liberals have been hearing them and the NDP has been hearing about them. Everywhere you go, if you’re knocking on doors, you’re hearing about what’s going on in our neighbourhoods as we all see houses being built in our communities.

These stories aren’t new. These stories were the stories I raised during the second reading of this bill. These stories were raised by my colleagues in the NDP: Jagmeet Singh and, before him, Rosario Marchese. Both of these men were brilliant legislators who brought forward strong and smart laws to protect people, laws that were ignored by this government for a number of years.

So when this government put Bill 166 forward, we all thought we saw a space where we could work together, where we could reach across the aisle and put into practice what so many people had brought to our attention. Unfortunately, as most of the amendments we put forward were voted down by the Liberal Party, this did not happen.

Mr. Speaker, make no mistake about it: Change has to happen. People in this Legislature have to listen.

The way that Tarion is set up today, and the way that consumers are gouged and left stranded, is fundamentally flawed, and we owe it to our constituents to right this wrong.

This bill could do so much more for the people of the province of Ontario. You can simply look at the amendments we put forward, if you want to understand how this bill could be much stronger, and how consumers, unfortunately, were ignored.

Mr. Speaker, here is a handful of amendments that the NDP put forward which were shot down by the Liberal Party. I’m going to read them out because I think it’s important. I think it’s important for the Liberal caucus who are here today to hear these.

The act’s purposes to include promoting the construction of properly built new homes: Somebody on that side tell me what was wrong with that. Don’t we all want to have homes that are built properly?

The act’s purposes to include providing timely and useful information to new homebuyers about builder and vendor performance, and that that information be made available easily and on time—I’m asking my colleagues: What’s wrong with that amendment? There’s no cost to that amendment. All it’s doing is protecting consumers who have worked their entire lives to try to buy a home in the province of Ontario.

This is interesting, because I’m subject to this, Mr. Speaker, and I know that you will be interested in this because you’re subject to this as well: The newly created authorities be subject to the Public Sector Salary Disclosure Act, known as the sunshine list—what’s wrong with that? Do you see anything wrong with that, Mr. Speaker? I don’t think you would.

Allow the minister to require qualifications for board members of designated corporations and to ensure that there is some degree of consumer protection there: There’s no cost to that, but it makes the bill stronger. It got voted down.

All of

schedule 4 to come into force upon royal assent, not proclamation: We know that all this does is push it past the election; that’s what that’s about. What we said is, if this is important for consumers who have waited 10, 15 or 20 years to get this bill done, why not get it done immediately? Why are we pushing it out to 2020, 2021 or 2022? Our consumers need help today. Our families need help today.

The fifth one may sound confusing to some people but it’s important. It’s important because that difference is the difference between these changes taking effect as soon as the bill has passed or them taking effect after the election. That’s what I tried to explain, just a little bit there, Mr. Speaker. You see, if the bill is enforced upon royal assent, then that’s as soon as it has passed. So it gets passed—it’s probably going to get passed here maybe tomorrow or the day after or next week, but I know it’s going to get passed soon. The other option allows the ministry to drag their heels, and we all know what that means: 2020, 2021, 2022 or 2023.

We have been calling for Tarion reforms for over a decade and the government has done nothing. They’ve done nothing to heed our calls or to protect consumers, and yet, just months before an election, suddenly your reform bill appears before the House. So if you add that up, you can see why I’m concerned about this small but significant detail. Consumers need protection today, not a decade from now, not three years from now, not five years from now.

Mr. Speaker, the minister herself has said that many parts of this bill will not come into force until 2020. We’ve all heard the stories. I know the way it works in here; I know a lot of people are not listening. But I know the consumers are listening at home. I know they’re out there. I know they’re scared to death. I know they have been fighting Tarion for years. I believe all of us have an obligation to take care of our constituents, and this bill certainly isn’t going to do that.

Well, as many of you know, there’s an election in 2018—and I know you guys are all going to like this part of the speech—an election, I truly believe, the NDP will win. And when we do, we won’t be afraid to put consumers first.

But let me get back to my point on this bill lacking consumer protection measures. You know what? You don’t need to take it from me. We stand up here and we talk. But you know the best way to talk about it is to talk about people who have been affected by it. You can talk to Barbara Captijn. In June of this year, the Minister of Government and Consumer Services set up a closed-door consultation group of 11 people, of which she was the only independent consumer advocate. To her, “The group was stacked toward Tarion representatives and those with business ties to Tarion.” I didn’t say that, Mr.

Speaker; that’s not coming from me. It’s not coming from the NDP. It’s coming from a person who sat on that committee and that’s how she felt. So right off the bat, she says right there that the group that was supposed to provide advice on this legislation was stacked towards Tarion. I don’t get it, by the way. I don’t understand why we’re protecting Tarion.

When she appeared before the committee, she went on to say, “I believe this is the wrong approach to take in consultations about public policy. They should not be behind closed doors and they should not be confidential.”

I think that’s fair, I think that’s balanced, and I certainly think it’s reasonable. Does anyone here disagree with that? Put your hand up, those who are listening, if you disagree with her statement—because I don’t think we do. Does anyone disagree that public policy discussions should be open, transparent and represent all the residents who live within Ontario, not just the ones tied to big business?

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Windsor West was in committee that day and asked the consumer representative, on the record, questions which I believe need to be mentioned here. On the issue of transparency, this exchange occurred:

“Mrs. Lisa Gretzky: Okay. Do you feel that the working group was transparent and accountable to the public?

“Ms. Barbara Captijn: Well, we were told to be confidential about who said what. I don’t have a problem with anybody quoting me on anything I say on behalf of consumers, but apparently, that was not the wish of either the ministry or the people in the consultation group. I think that’s wrong.

“We were told to act ‘in the best interests of all Ontarians.’ If that’s what you’re doing, there’s no reason for secrecy, there’s no reason for confidentiality, because you’re acting without vested interests in the interests of Ontarians. I believe that’s the way it should have been conducted.”

To the Speaker: I appreciate you listening to what’s being said here because I think this is so important. It’s important to listen to the residents. We can all stand up here, as elected MPPs, and say whatever we want, but this is what’s being said by the residents of the province of Ontario, and we’ve got an obligation to listen—particularly to the only consumer advocate on that consultation group.

With over a decade of public outcry and so many people who have a stake in this game, why were these consultations held in secret? I ask you, Mr. Speaker—maybe you can answer that for me—why would they do that? Why were members of this group made secret? Why was the group stacked with Tarion insiders? Somebody help me out here, because I can’t answer these questions. These are all questions that I hope the government will answer, because they’re so important to consumer protection.

Mr. Speaker, there are two more exchanges between the member from Windsor West and Barbara that occurred in that committee, which I believe accurately describe what I’m getting to here.

The first is:

“Mrs. Lisa Gretzky: Do you feel that the working group had proper representation for consumers, and was it a free and open process as far as properly analyzing and looking at the recommendations that had been made previously?

“Ms. Barbara Captijn: No to both of those.”

Again, that’s not me saying that; that’s somebody who lives in the province of Ontario.

The second one is:

“Mrs. Lisa Gretzky: I want to thank you for being here today. The first question I’m going to ask you is pretty straightforward: Do you feel that Bill 166 properly protects the rights of consumers?”

Do you know what she said, Mr. Speaker? She didn’t give a long-winded reply. It was one word: “No.” There you have it. A person who was asked to advise the government, who was there to debate public policy in favour of the consumers, read the bill and made those comments.

Clearly, this government has so much more it could do for consumers. But we see how they feel about protecting them. It’s clear. Again, we’ve been raising this issue for a decade, and they only decided to act immediately before an election.

In fact, there’s an MPP in this House—and I won’t name which one, because I don’t think that’s really fair, but I think it’s fair to tell this story—who stood up here last week and said some very rude things about our party and about our hydro motion, which seeks to put a plan in place that will lower hydro bills, protect people and put hydro back into public hands. That’s how we feel.

Here’s what happened here—Mr. Speaker, look at me, because this is shocking to me. He was here saying we don’t actually care about the people of Ontario, yet that same MPP blocked a consumer advocacy group on Twitter. Why did he do that? Do you know why they’re doing that, why he blocked them? They were tweeting stories of people who were struggling to deal with issues with houses they bought that weren’t properly built. Why do people do that? Mr. Speaker, and my colleagues: Why would people do that? Do you know why they do that? They’re desperate. They’ve been fighting Tarion for two, three or five years.

They’ve lost their homes. People have ended up losing their homes; they can’t get mortgages. That’s why they did it. And you know what? They’re tweeting to us because it’s our job. It’s our job to try and help them.

If we’re honest with ourselves, we all know that people come to our offices every day and we all try to help them. There are some days when we can’t help, and we have to tell them that. We have to say to that constituent, “I can’t help you.” But in this issue with Tarion, nobody in this Legislature can say that we can’t help that consumer. What we have to do is take on Tarion. We’ve got to take them on and make sure they’re doing the job that they’re supposed to do. This bill doesn’t do that, completely. It certainly doesn’t.

Consumers deserve better in the province of Ontario. They’re tweeting their stories of people who are struggling to deal with issues in houses they bought that weren’t properly built. Imagine that. He tells us we’re out of touch because we put forward a hydro plan that actually works for people, and he’s blocking the public from proving to him how desperately they need his help.

I’m looking at my colleagues. I’m looking at my colleague from St. Catharines. I can go to that colleague and tell him how desperate some of the people in St. Catharines may be, and do you know what? He’s going to listen. He’s not going to block them on Twitter. He’s not going to do that. Why would an MPP do that? It’s wrong.

I hope that clarifies the issue around consumer protection. Again I point to the group Canadians for Properly Built Homes. They’re a group of hard-working citizens who are trying to get this government to do the right thing and protect consumers. They aren’t hard to find. They produce recommendations that are grounded in public policy, and they make sense. We don’t always agree on every single issue, but they can be very easily approached. We can have conversations. We can work together. We can make this province better for new homebuyers and those stuck in a system that’s not working.

They do work with our office, and there’s no doubt in my mind that they’d be happy to work with the minister to do that work here. They’re open to dialogue, and they’re reasonable people. The minister can work with them and make this legislation stronger.

In the event that the members in this House right now will not seek out the group, one of their members, Dr. Karen Somerville, came to us here at Queen’s Park and to the committee. She told a story in the committee that I think is worth reading into the record and important for each of you to hear. This is in her words, not mine:

“I’m going to start by telling you about one of the many people suffering due to the inadequacies of the current legislation and the current model.” She showed a picture of Daniel Emery. Here’s the short story of Daniel’s experience based on what she told us:

“In 2007, he bought a newly built home in Port Dover. There was no occupancy permit. He quickly found serious code defects, including Ontario building code violations. He contacted Tarion, and he understood that Tarion would help him. He waited for over three years for Tarion to help. Tarion did not help him.

“His insurance was cancelled due to the construction defects and mould in his home. Without insurance, Daniel could not get his mortgage renewed. Without a mortgage, his home went into foreclosure. In 2011, Daniel Emery became homeless. Daniel is still desperately seeking compensation from Tarion today.

“Bill 166 will do nothing to prevent a situation like Daniel’s from happening again. Bill 166 does not provide compensation for Daniel or other families who feel that they have been wronged by Tarion. Again, Daniel’s story is just one ... of many, many across Ontario.”

If anyone from Tarion or the government is listening right now, Daniel still needs you. Daniel needs you to fix this situation. Daniel did nothing wrong; Tarion did. Nobody should end up homeless because of Tarion.

Instead it seems they’re listening to powerful lobby groups, groups that have been lobbying for this for a long time. Make no mistake about it: They are powerful lobbying groups. Make no mistake about it. We know who they are.

Down in Niagara, we have a lot of people who work in the trades. They are some of the best trades workers anywhere in Canada. I truly believe that. When you build something locally with our local skilled trades, it gets built properly, and we know it’s a safe work environment.

It’s some of these same groups that have been trying to push for less and less restrictions on the amount of training and certification required to build these homes. Well, nowhere is that more evident than in some of these examples.

Do you honestly want someone wiring your house or installing a sprinkler system who isn’t certified to do the work? I ask anybody here. You can yell it out—you guys like to heckle. Mr. Speaker, would you want that for your home? These are truly matters of life and death. It’s about the safety of our children and our grandchildren. It may be more expensive for builders to use them, but they keep our families safe and ensure the job is done right.

When we see companies that are trying to make it easier to get around certifications or to make their complaints process so difficult that consumers abandon it, we need to look at their motivation. I can’t speak for them, but it’s easy to make some judgments. At the end of the day, we want people to feel safe and secure in their homes and feel that their homes are reliable. These issues are all intertwined and can’t be and shouldn’t be separated by any government.

There is one part of the bill I’d like to talk about in very positive terms, one part of the bill the government actually got right, and that was the support of the NDP amendment to bring Tarion under the oversight of the Auditor General. We’ve raised this issue numerous times in this House and actually put bills forward on this. I cannot say how proud I am to be the critic who will finally see this occur—all of this hard work to shine a light on the Tarion corporation and to show the issues we all know are occurring there have finally come through.

This measure for transparency was so important even my colleagues in the PC Party supported it. It’s important because the release of the People’s Guarantee and their $6-billion budget hole prove that they are not the party that cares about transparency, but even they came around on this one and saw it was good to support it. I believe the knowledge that this amendment was accepted strengthens this bill and goes a little way to correct something that was wrong before. Obviously, we would have preferred to have this sooner, but it’s better now than never.

During the second reading of this bill, I laid out a vision for what I would prefer. As mentioned, change needs to happen, and needs to happen now. People like Daniel are depending on all of us. And there are people in my riding that depend on us, too—and your ridings.

As I mentioned last time, I was doing some canvassing in my new subdivisions. I have lots of new subdivisions in Niagara Falls. Canvassing always reveals a lot about what’s going on in your neighbourhoods. It’s essential to me, and there are some stories that relate to the issues in this bill. These people have many of the same concerns when we go to their doors and listen to their concerns.

They wanted a new hospital built. We absolutely deserve quality and timely access to health care in Niagara Falls. We’ve wanted that for a long time. We need to get the shovels in the ground and get it done and get it open as soon as possible. That’s a big issue at the doors in the Falls, so you expect to hear that.

Obviously, hydro rates: Decent hard-working people in Niagara are struggling to cover the cost of hydro rates. They need relief, and they need it now. So you expect to hear that at the doors.

We also heard about pollution. As a matter of fact, I raised this issue a number of times in the House—the raw sewage that’s being dumped in our Niagara River—which is absolutely terrible. We deserve rivers and lakes that are swimmable, fishable and drinkable. It’s inexcusable to think that people are dumping sewage into our river. Our government must act on that.

So we expected that. You expect to hear about the hospital; you expect to hear about the raw sewage. It’s a big issue down in the Niagara riding. We expect those things. But the one that was coming up more and more in the new subdivisions was Tarion. I was a little surprised at that, but that’s what they wanted to talk about on the doorsteps. I’m knocking on doors in new subdivisions in Niagara Falls and this is what people are flagging me down about, and it’s only going to happen more and more. Houses are going up. They’re being built like crazy, so if you don’t address this, the situation will get even worse.

Together, we’ve been able to do some incredible work. We’ve proven that when we work together, we can be an effective force and get things done. This Liberal mess can be fixed, and we can work together to make life better for people in all our communities, not just my own.

Mr. Speaker, there’s another portion of the bill which I’d like to touch on before my time runs out, and that portion deals with ticket sales—something that I’m quite familiar with. There has been a lot of debate about this. I think we almost all agree that something needs to be done. We’ve got people here in Ontario who are trying to see sporting events or trying to see a concert and the tickets disappear before they even have a chance to buy them. We’re talking about selling out in seconds. It’s ridiculous.

I know my colleagues on the other side will know this story. I remember when my daughters were a lot younger, and I was working at GM at the time. I used to love taking my girls to see the Blue Jays games. It was a great day out for myself and my family. My daughters ended up being amazing ballplayers, and they loved going to see the Jays.

It boils my blood to think that people working in that plant today can’t take their kids to see a Leafs game, a Jays game, maybe even a soccer game or go to an Elton John concert because computers pick up the tickets and then resell them at a higher price. Sporting events and concerts are supposed to be for everyday people. What happens when you have two or three children? You can’t afford $150 a ticket. It’s just not reasonable. We know we have to handle this somehow.

Some of the provisions of this bill work, but once again we offered solutions that would make the provisions even stronger. The one that I thought was really good was the provision that would require a venue—now think about this—to release how many tickets were on sale to the general public. Does anybody in here not think that’s fair and reasonable, to know how many tickets are actually going to be available to the public? For example, if a venue had 20,000 tickets, they would need to reveal that only 8,000 or 9,000 ever went on sale.

We always expect that some tickets will be what they call “holdbacks.” I don’t know if anybody has heard that word before, but that’s what it’s called. These are tickets meant for the VIPs, family members, friends, radio stations—things like that. The issue is, when there are so few tickets being sold, demand goes up. When tickets reappear on the secondary market, they are almost unaffordable for our families to take our kids and our grandkids.

Mr. Speaker, during the debate on this bill, I had people contact my office and tell me they knew that venues were withholding up to 90% of the tickets they had. The general public never even gets the opportunity to buy tickets. When we make public how many tickets they sell, we know it’s transparent. I raised the question on this, so I think it’s fair and I think it’s balanced to raise it again today. At one point, we actually agreed on this, meaning the Liberals and us agreed. The provision was in the original bill, which we supported.

But then the pressure came and the lobbyists came, and suddenly the provision was removed from the bill. Mr. Speaker, I actually questioned the minister about this in the House during question period. I still believe it makes sense and it should be there.

I can prove it’s a problem, and I think I’ll do that. I have a few minutes left.

During the committee hearings on this bill the representative from StubHub was asked if tickets appear for the first time directly on their site instead of ever being released to the public. Do you understand what that means? The tickets for the event are on StubHub before they are ever released to the public. You know what his response was to that? I was surprised by it, by the way, I’ll be honest with you—yes. Many times they have leveraged their own resale platform. Before they even went to the public, they were on StubHub. You know why they’re sold out in 30 seconds? It’s because StubHub already has the tickets and they’re already jacked up in price.

“We have artists and promoters who come directly to StubHub to use us as a distribution channel. Those are not tickets being resold; those are tickets that are being sold for the first time where they are trying to capture the true market value of that ticket out the door.”

It goes even further than that. When pressed further by the member for Windsor West, they had this to say: “It’s unclear to us what the actual holdback numbers are, and I think this is another area that warrants significant study. The only study that we can point to right now that did look at ticket holdbacks comes from the state of New York. The New York attorney general commissioned a study, and it was published in February 2016. In their research, they cited that on average, only 46% ... ever make it to sale to the general public.

For high-demand events, that average drops to 25%.” For a higher-demand event, like somebody like Katy Perry, whom I know a lot of people know, “that dropped as low as 12% to 15%.”

Mr. Speaker, it’s right there in black and white. If you can’t get tickets, one of the major reasons could easily be the fact that almost no tickets go on sale. If this government makes this information clear and they limit holdbacks significantly, they can release thousands of tickets into the marketplace almost immediately, like that.

In some cases, contracts have already been signed and would have to be honoured, but it would allow for the future of Ontario to be one where families could actually get tickets to events to take their kids and their grandkids to. We work hard. We deserve to be able to get tickets to events that we want to see.

The proof is right there in black and white, so I don’t understand why the government backed off on this. I could see that even some of the Liberals were nodding their heads this morning that they think it’s something that’s not right.

Another issue that was flagged to us was the ability to request an actual hard copy of your ticket. I know some of the members—we’ve had issues with this. Just imagine a young kid going to see a Jays game on his birthday. He gets to the front and finds out that the ticket has already been checked in. If there was an actual hard copy of the ticket to sell, it could reduce counts of fraud. And that’s happening. I hate to tell you, it happened to me once.

These two measures, along with stricter resale measures, limiting holdbacks and capping ticket resale prices, could make a real difference in the province of Ontario. It wouldn’t just be for the residents, either. As many of you know, I represent the riding of Niagara Falls. We have world-class hotels down there, the best hospitality staff in the entire world and Niagara-on-the-Lake and Fort Erie. People come for the Falls, but they stay for the hospitality in my riding. One of the things that draws them is the concerts. They go to concerts; they go to stop by the Falls; they go to the casino.

It’s all part of the tourism. If we made tickets more available, we would have more people coming to Ontario.

As many of you know, we’ve been working hard to get an entertainment complex built in Niagara Falls. It was announced not that long ago that we’re going to have a new 5,000-seat complex down there, which is great; we’re extremely happy about that. But we still have lots of work to do. I’m working very hard to make sure the complex is built with local workers, local businesses and local engineers. We’ve had some success there, and we’re thankful for that. If we use local skilled trades, we know it will be safe and we know it will last.

But part of making the entertainment complex a reality was proving we could bring people to Niagara Falls to use it. If we release thousands of tickets onto the market and make concerts accessible, we would be creating jobs in places like Niagara and Windsor, particularly border towns; Sarnia.

Mr. Speaker, let me conclude my few remarks. I hope I’ve made it clear that I’m happy to see legislation brought forward to address these issues, but there’s more that can be done. While the debate is open now, let’s take the opportunity to seize the moment and make the changes that truly protect residents and protect consumers.

Lastly, I want to thank all of the tireless advocates and voices who reached out to us during the debate around Bill 166. Some of those stories were hard for them to tell. Their personal knowledge and their experience have been incredibly moving, and I can’t thank them enough for the work that they’ve done.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate it.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you.

Hon. Michael Coteau: Point of order.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Minister of Children and Youth Services on a point of order.

Hon. Michael Coteau: Mr. Speaker, I’m seeking unanimous consent for the Attorney General to be allowed to speak a second time on debate on the motion for third reading of Bill 166,

An Act to amend or repeal various Acts and to enact three new Acts with respect to the construction of new homes and ticket sales for events.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Do we have unanimous consent? Carried.

Third reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): It being close to 10:15, this House stands recessed until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1010 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

Mrs. Lisa Gretzky: It is my honour to introduce the following individuals who are visiting us today from the Ontario Principals’ Council: Frank Palumbo, Ann Pace, Kelly Kempel, Bernadette Bruette, Peggy Sweeney and Rachel Gruber; and two principals I met with this morning, Nancy Brady from Ottawa-Carleton, and a special shout-out to Mark Campbell, who is a principal at Amherstburg Public School in a neighbouring riding to mine. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Michael Coteau: I just want to take a moment to wish Arianne Persaud a happy birthday. She is my legislative assistant, and of course, one of the best in the Legislature.

Ms. Soo Wong: I have a lot of guests here today. I want all of us to welcome them. From the Salvation Army, Mr.

Glenn van Gulik; Major John Murray, territorial divisional secretary for public relations and development; Major Pat Phinney, Ontario Great Lakes division, divisional secretary for public relations and development; Major Everett Barrow, Ontario Great Lakes division, divisional commander; Lieutenant-Colonel Jennifer Groves, Ontario Great Lakes division, assistant divisional commander; Major Violet Barrow, Ontario Great Lakes division, divisional director of women’s ministries; Major Bruce Shirran, Ontario Great Lakes division, executive director for the great New Life Centre, Sudbury; Mr.

Bradley Harris, Ontario Central East division, executive director, Toronto housing and homeless supports; Mr. Jeff Barrett, Ontario Central East, divisional secretary for business administration; and Major Karen Puddicombe, Ontario Great Lakes division, pastor, New Hope Community Church.

Welcome to Queen’s Park. I hope all of you—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Welcome.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Please join me in welcoming, from the beautiful riding of Dufferin–Caledon, Cindy Abela, James Dawson, Tove Schmidt, Dwight Gross, and Ben Adams. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: First, I would like to welcome from our page captain Andrew Stevenson his grandparents Lynne and David Atkinson. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

I also want to welcome leaders from the Tibetan community, all who have served on the board of the Tibetan Canadian Cultural Centre. We have, in the members’ gallery, Kunsang Tanzin, Sonam Dorjee Chungpa, Lobsang Chozin, Gelek Gyaltong, Kalsang Dolkar, Tsering Tsomo, Tenzin Khedup, Karma Youngdue and Tenzin Tsochung. Tashidelek and welcome to Queen’s Park.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Welcome.

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: I would like to extend a very warm welcome to Steph Crosier of the Kingston Whig-Standard from my riding of Kingston and the Islands. She’s in the press gallery right now. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: I know they have been introduced, but I would like to introduce them because they are constituents of mine: Dr. David and Lynne Atkinson, whose daughter taught me to drive a standard. I probably owe them a couple clutches that they don’t know of. Welcome.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Welcome.

M me Nathalie Des Rosiers: I would like to welcome representatives from the co-op movement. We have had a very pleasant co-op breakfast co-hosted by the all-party co-chairs, the MPP from Oxford and the MPP from Windsor–Tecumseh.

I would like to welcome Michelle Vieira from Ag Energy Co-operative, director, sales and member relations, vice-chair of the Ontario Co-operative Association; David Cork, managing director, the Federation of Community Power Co-operatives; Janice Johnson, chair of the Ontario Co-operative Association and marketing manager of GROWMARK; Luc Morin, le directeur général du Conseil de la coopération de l’Ontario; Julien Geremie, directeur général adjoint du Conseil de la coopération de l’Ontario; Clément Panzavolta, business development officer du Conseil de la coopération de l’Ontario; Audrey Aczel, communications manager, Ontario Co-operative Association; and Peter Cameron, the acting executive director of the Ontario Co-operative Association.

Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Raymond Sung Joon Cho: I’m very happy to welcome, from Whitefield Christian Schools, teachers Ms. Dorcas Jew and Mr. Robin Cleland; and students Nathan Fraser, Badina Daniel, Joshua Sole, Krishan Thanarajah, Aaliyah LaFleur, Max Wang, Wyvern Wang, Grace Yiu, Grace Vanden Heuvel, Amy Vilvarajan, and David Yacoub.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: I’d like to welcome Mark Campbell, who is the principal of the Amherstburg Public School in my riding of Essex. Welcome, Mark.

Hon. Mitzie Hunter: Today at Queen’s Park, we will have a very special group that will be touring: 27 grade 10 students from West Hill Collegiate Institute, from my great riding of Scarborough–Guildwood. I look forward to meeting them and their teacher, Jane Sorel, at the grand staircase. Mr. Speaker, they have been visiting Queen’s Park for the last four years.

Wearing of pins

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of the Status of Women on a point of order.

Hon. Indira Naidoo-Harris: A point of order: I believe you will find that we have unanimous consent that members be permitted to wear rose pins today to recognize the National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The minister is seeking unanimous consent to wear the rose pins in recognition of the National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women. Do we agree? Agreed.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Before we begin question period, a reminder that there has been a warning carried over from this morning.

Visitors

Mr. Arthur Potts: I want to introduce the great students from the Neil McNeil school, technically in Scarborough Southwest, but so many of these kids come from Beaches–East York.

N-E-I-L. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Oral Questions

Energy policies

Mr. Todd Smith: My question this morning is for the Acting Premier. It’s about the Liberals’ latest gas plant scandal.

The Ontario Energy Board warned the government in 2009—this was back in 2009—that ratepayers could be bilked out of millions, and the Liberals did nothing about it. They warned the Liberals again in 2011, and again, the Liberal government did nothing. Now we know that Goreway wasn’t the only gas plant that decided to treat Ontario ratepayers like their own piggy bank. This government tried to hide that for years.

This looks like a smokescreen on the part of the government, and it happened under a succession of energy ministers. Both the members from Scarborough Centre and Ottawa West–Nepean were Ministers of Energy during this misappropriation.

So, Mr. Speaker, how many Liberals does it take to cover up a $100-million scandal?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member will withdraw.

Mr. Todd Smith: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Excuse me—without comment.

Deputy Premier?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: The Minister of Economic Development and Growth.

Hon. Brad Duguid: Handling another minister’s file like this is kind of like being a grandparent, in some ways. I get to handle the file and work with you on this today, and then, after the weekend, I’ll probably get to hand it back to the minister, when I’ve probably had enough of it. I’m pleased to be acting on behalf of the Minister of Energy today.

Again, let’s put this all back into perspective. The IESO was made aware of some potential ineligible costs that had been going on within the system. They fully investigated those costs. They recovered the vast majority of those costs. They levied a $10-million fine, the biggest ever levied in these kinds of circumstances. They posted the report and the record on the OEB website, so it’s there for all to see. They’ve taken steps to ensure that the system has been strengthened so that it won’t occur again.

I’ll continue more about what some future actions are going to be, in the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Todd Smith: The member opposite was the Minister of Energy when some of this gaming was going on, and his seatmate was also a Minister of Energy while this gaming was going on at Goreway.

This Goreway natural gas plant got the final draft of the report from the OEB in July. The government got the report in September. It was made public November 2, but amazingly, the Goreway executive who was helping write the new electricity market rules didn’t resign until last Friday. That was after Cabinet Office received their advance copy of today’s report by the Auditor General.

Speaker, if we pull the phone records for the energy ministry and Cabinet Office for the end of last week, would we find calls to Goreway power or the IESO pressuring them for a resignation?

Hon. Brad Duguid: This entire process is conducted, as it appropriately should be by the IESO, the Independent Electricity System Operator for Ontario. I say that because I think a lot of people don’t know what the IESO is. Their job is to ensure that our electricity system is regulated—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I might get there quicker.

Carry on.

Hon. Brad Duguid: Mr. Speaker, their job is to ensure that the electricity system is properly regulated. They’ve done that; they’re doing that job. They found some ineligible costs at a company, and, in fact, there were some other companies, as the member indicated, that have been here. They’ve taken action. They’ve cleaned up the system, strengthened the system to ensure it can’t occur in the future, and they’ve recovered the vast majority of funds.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Mr. Todd Smith: The member opposite can try and distance himself from this all he wants, but again, he was the Minister of Energy when this gaming was brought to light by the energy board, and so was his seatmate.

These Liberal scandals have a pattern: First, there’s the mind-numbing incompetence, then there’s the lack of oversight. We wonder who’s minding the store over there when hundreds of millions of dollars are being wasted in this sector. Then there’s the clumsy smokescreen that comes up.

Then, like a child called into the principal’s office, the government ministers hang their heads and tell Ontarians how sorry they are, but because no one’s ever held accountable over there by the Premier or anyone in that government, no one actually learns anything, so the same mistakes continue to occur over and over again. There are two former energy ministers in cabinet who both fell asleep at the switch. No one’s minding the store.

To the Acting Premier: Why are those ministers still in cabinet?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please.

Minister.

Hon. Brad Duguid: Speaker, I’ve been pretty forthright in my responses to the member on two consecutive questions, and the member persists in trying to get political with this, so perhaps I should respond in kind.

Let me remind that member that he’s part of a party that better be very careful when they’re making allegations of exploitation and gaming. When you look at their tabloid that they recently put out—talk about gaming people, claiming a 22%-income tax cut when it’s nothing of the sort. That’s just a bogus claim. You look further and you see $12 billion in cuts, none of which are transparent, none of which are defined.

What kind of energy programs are they going to cut? What kind of education programs are they going to cut? What kind of health care programs? They’re on pretty thin ice over there when they make those kinds of political allegations, if you ask me.

Northern transportation

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Good morning, Speaker. My question is for the Acting Premier. Citing non-existent savings, this government callously cancelled passenger rail service to northeastern Ontario as part of a plan to sell off Ontario Northland. It was only after we called in the Auditor General, who revealed there were no savings to be had—in fact, it would actually cost taxpayers $820 million to sell off Ontario Northland—that this government partially halted the sale.

Today, northerners are left without rail service while options in southern Ontario are expanded. Northerners were rightfully furious with the Liberal decision to cancel the service, fearing job losses and the end of a historic transportation option to and from Toronto for medical and other purposes.

Speaker, to the Acting Premier: Does she agree with the PC plan to bring back passenger rail service?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation.

Hon. David Zimmer: Thank you for that question—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): You will wait until I acknowledge, please.

Carry on.

Hon. David Zimmer: Thank you, Speaker.

People living in northern Ontario do have the right to rely on public transportation to travel between their communities. Especially in those remote communities, they rely on that transportation for essential access to essential services.

So what have we done? We are improving the intercommunity bus services in northern Ontario, and that’s why just this past Friday we announced that we would work with existing private carriers to continue improving the intercommunity bus services. What that has led to is that communities are going to benefit from that announcement. Those communities include Hearst, Hornepayne, White River, Red Lake, Emo, Rainy River, Fort Frances, Atikokan, Red Rock and other communities.

We are going to provide return service five days a week between all communities covered by the ONTC or private carriers, thanks to this new funding.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary? The member from Parry Sound–Muskoka.

Mr. Norm Miller: Back to the Acting Premier: While some northern Ontarians relied on the train, for remote northern communities, including many First Nations, air travel is the only reliable year-round mode of transportation. This government has shown they do not care about the needs of northerners in many ways, including when they increased the aviation fuel tax by 148%. As a direct result of this increase, northerners have seen the cost of everything from food to fuel to personal travel for medical appointments go up. Our Ontario PC leader has recognized this issue and committed to reversing the 148% increase to the aviation fuel tax for all northern airports, large and small.

Will the Deputy Premier admit that this increase has created unnecessary hardships for Ontarians living in remote northern communities, and will she agree to reverse this tax for northern Ontario?

Hon. David Zimmer: Minister of Finance.

Hon. Charles Sousa: As the member knows, aviation fuel tax was previously amended in 1992, and it was at 2.7 cents a litre. The majority of aviation fuel is the federal tax, and we have made it clear that the recent decrease in jet fuel prices, greater than four cents per litre—an increase in aviation fuel tax has been phased out between 2014 and 2017.

As we know, what we’re trying to do is ensure that we provide support for those municipalities in regions of the north to ensure that they get more funding, which these members on the other side have consistently denied them. We have put forward increased funding for the OMPF and other support systems for the region.

The aviation fuel tax is meant to provide even greater revenues for the communities, and the member opposite knows that the majority of that is the federal government and our proportion of that amount is about one cent per litre.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary? The member from Sault Ste. Marie.

Mr. Ross Romano: To the Acting Premier: Investments in northern Ontario will not be confined simply to bringing back the Northlander or reversing the aviation fuel tax. It’s about economic development as well. The Ring of Fire is the single greatest opportunity economically that northern Ontario has ever seen. It’s estimated that it will create 5,500 sustainable jobs and increases of upwards of $2 billion in government revenues. Under the People’s Guarantee, Patrick Brown and a PC government will ensure that we are committed to building roads to the Ring of Fire.

Since it was discovered, this government has done nothing but made broken promises and entered into bad faith negotiations with respect to the ring. After 10 years since its discovery, construction of the roads are still not under way. In fact, the Ring of Fire isn’t even mentioned in the most recent fall economic statement.

Mr. Speaker, to the Acting Premier: Will this government finally admit that any reference they make to the Ring of Fire is nothing more than an election ploy?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Hon. Bill Mauro: The member opposite missed the announcement in August of this year. The Premier was in Thunder Bay with the Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation, the Minister of Northern Development and Mines and myself as we made the announcement, followed through on our commitment. First Nations were in attendance at the announcement at the same time, Speaker, and everybody is aware that they have signed on, moving forward not only with one road, an east-west, but also with a north-south from the Nakina/Aroland area straight north into Marten Falls. It’s a very exciting announcement.

Speaker, it still remains surprising to me that members of the Conservative Party will stand in this place and pretend as best as they are able that they will somehow provide more fiscal capacity for northern Ontario municipalities, when in fact they are the party, when in power, that downloaded massive amounts of financial responsibility onto the backs of residential property taxpayers not only in northern Ontario, but in every one of the 444 municipalities across this province.

Energy policies

Mr. John Vanthof: My question is to the Acting Premier. Yesterday, we learned that a private gas plant in Brampton gamed the Liberal government’s system for managing private electric contracts to the tune of $100 million. We know the company was fined $10 million by the OEB for the fraud, and the Minister of Economic Development and Growth told reporters they had also paid back the full $100 million. But the amount paid back by the private gas plant is blacked out in the Ontario Energy Board report.

Will the Acting Premier tell us when the people of Ontario will be able to see for themselves that this private gas plant company has paid them back in full?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: The Minister of Economic Development and Growth.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I’ll share with the member some of the facts on this as they have come forward and some, actually, reported today. In all—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Excuse me. We’re in warnings. Thank you.

Carry on.

Hon. Brad Duguid: In all, the IESO negotiated 92% of the costs coming back. That includes the $10-million fine.

The challenge here is, some of these are disputed inappropriate costs that the company would take a different view on—as to whether they’re inappropriate or not. So there was a—you could call it a negotiation between the IESO and the company to determine which of these costs were really deemed to be ineligible. The fact that 92% was recovered, in the eyes of the IESO, was deemed to be fair to the company but more so to ratepayers.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. John Vanthof: Again to the Acting Premier: If it’s indeed true that the vast majority of these costs have been repaid by the company, can the Acting Premier tell us when people will see that on their hydro bills? When will they be paid back for this fraud?

Hon. Brad Duguid: The fact is that, yes, indeed, 92% of the costs are in the process of being paid back. I can’t confirm that those dollars have flowed yet, but they will. My understanding is, they’d go right back into the IESO and the rate system, but you’d have to check with finance and our accountants to determine exactly how that cash flow happens.

I appreciate the question. Certainly, we may be able to determine a more in-depth answer for you in checking with the finance officials down the road.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Mr. John Vanthof: Ontario families and businesses are struggling under the weight of soaring hydro bills. Rates have gone up by 300% under this Liberal government, and now we learn that in addition to paying for the hydro they use, families were forced to pay $100 million to a private gas plant company for no reason at all.

I’ll ask the Acting Premier again: How will she ensure that the people of Ontario who paid those hydro bills get their money back?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Again, Mr. Speaker, let’s be very, very clear: $100 million has not been lost; $100 million, in fact, has been—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Excuse me. I’m not 100% sure, so I’ll just wait.

Carry on.

Hon. Brad Duguid: In addition, the company that was accused of exploiting the process has been fined $10 million. That money has flowed back into the system. Ratepayers are not going to be out. There is a dispute in terms of some of these costs; there’s no question. I think that speaks to the system—the definition of what appropriate costs ought to have been.

The IESO has strengthened that system, as well, to ensure that this can’t happen in the future.

It’s an unfortunate circumstance. There’s no defending the company, but at the end of the day, the IESO took the actions that it ought to have taken, and ratepayers have been compensated.

Energy policies

Mr. John Vanthof: Once again to the Acting Premier. The OEB report on the newest gas plant scandal says that the team that monitors private electricity companies has been raising red flags about this kind of activity for years. It points out that the Liberal government’s loopholes have allowed private companies to take money from Ontario families and businesses with very few consequences.

If the Liberal government knew about the $100-million fraud and the loopholes and let the private gas plant get away with stealing money for so long, why didn’t anyone do anything about it until now?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Minister of Economic Development and Growth.

Hon. Brad Duguid: The IESO is the organization that administers these matters and deals with these matters. It’s not the minister or the government that engages in these kinds of discussions and negotiations with these companies, nor do we do the procurement; it’s the IESO that does that.

They identified that there was an issue going on. They investigated the issue. The issue did take some time. It was apparently very complex and difficult to determine. At the end of the day, they determined that there were some ineligible costs that were claimed by this company and a few others. They took the action to recover the vast majority of the funds that had been deemed to be ineligible claims, and they fined this company $10 million in addition to that. So, Mr. Speaker, I believe they’ve taken the action they ought to have taken, and certainly at the surface it seems like it’s a pretty fair result.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. John Vanthof: This is a long-standing issue. The Brampton gas plant alone was able to defraud the people of this province for almost three years before it was discovered. The OEB report says: “The systems that are in place ... have created opportunities for exploitation, to the serious financial disadvantage of Ontario ratepayers.”

Why has this Liberal government allowed private energy companies to exploit the people of Ontario for so long?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Once again, let me repeat: The IESO has recovered the vast majority of the funds that were in dispute and, indeed, levied a fine to the company in question. So ratepayers are not out here for the vast majority of those ineligible funds. That’s, I think, point number one.

Point number two: When something like this occurs, it does mean that there must have been some kind of a problem or a flaw with the system that was in place. In this case, it would appear that the definition of “eligible costs” was probably not clear enough, and the IESO has taken measures to correct that, which is the appropriate course of action for them to take.

The dollars have been recovered, the IESO has taken appropriate action to ensure this doesn’t happen in the future and, indeed, a market renewable system is being put into place where this will never, ever happen in the future.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. John Vanthof: This is not an isolated incident. There is a systemic issue with how this government allows private energy companies to operate in Ontario. The government knew about this fraud, and they did nothing for years.

The OEB report went on to say, “The panel has frequently commented on the substantial inefficiencies and opportunities for exploitation that are associated with different elements of the design of the wholesale electricity market.” You knew about it, and you did nothing.

I’ll ask the Acting Premier again: Why has her government allowed the people of Ontario to foot the bill for the shenanigans of private energy companies for so long?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I have to correct the member again. The funds that are in question have, for the most part, been recovered. When he says “foot the bill,” indeed the IESO has recovered the vast majority of the funds and levied a $10-million fine to the company.

There is no defending a company that exploited this system. At the same time, we need to ensure—and the IESO is very aware of this—that they need to be more vigilant in their systems when they put those systems in place, to ensure that there is clarity in what eligible costs ought to be or ought not to be.

They’ve made the changes they need to make to that system. I think that’s what Ontario ratepayers would expect of them. They’ve recovered the vast majority of funds on behalf of Ontario ratepayers. I think Ontario ratepayers would expect that as well. And they’ve levied a $10-million fine, the largest ever, on that company. I think Ontario ratepayers would expect that as well.

Minimum wage

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: To the Deputy Premier: The Russian Olympic team were not the only folks to receive a ban yesterday. Last night, CTV London reported that the Port Albert General Store is closing this winter for the first time in 150 years, a direct result of this government’s bad policies. Six employees will be out of work this winter just before Christmas.

When it reopens this spring, Speaker, the Deputy Premier, a summer client, will no longer be welcome there. Can the Deputy Premier explain to the House why she has been banned from the Port Albert General Store and tell us how many other Liberal caucus members have been banned from small businesses throughout the province because of their bad decisions?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Deputy Premier.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: To the Minister of Labour.

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Perhaps the member opposite can explain: When you had the chance to stand up for working people—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): To the Chair, please.

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: —in the province of Ontario, you turned your backs on—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated. The member from Lanark–Frontenac–Lennox and Addington is warned. And I’ll wait for the others, if you’d like to add?

To the Chair, please.

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Speaker, a third of people in the province of Ontario currently make less than $15 an hour. Half of those people—more than half of those people, Speaker—are between the ages of 25 and 64. That’s the time when they’re trying to raise families, pay rent, buy clothes for the kids, put the kids through school, put food on the table. This party opposite has denied these families the opportunity to do that, and now they pull out a gimmicky question like this?

Speaker, we all had an opportunity to stand up for working people in Ontario. These guys turned their backs on them.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: You guys are joining the Trump team.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Infrastructure is warned.

Supplementary?

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Again, back to the Deputy Premier: This party, this government, just doesn’t get it. These six people will be earning zero dollars per hour because they’re losing their income through the winter months, because this owner has no other options but to close.

Speaker, I am sure this is just one example of many more to come.

In the People’s Guarantee, we will still move forward with minimum wage increases, just more slowly. This is an approach that the Ontario Chamber of Commerce said would mitigate job impacts by 74%. Will the Deputy Premier sign on to the People’s Guarantee, help us fix the mess that her government has made and save jobs and small businesses throughout Ontario?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please. Thank you.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Lambton–Kent–Middlesex is warned. You all want to get the last word; I do.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): A little louder, and I’ll warn you.

Minister?

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Quite the contrary to what the member is asserting, when the opportunity was given to this House to support working people—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Huron–Bruce is warned.

Carry on.

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Thank you, Speaker—to support working people in the province of Ontario, these guys refused to stand up and be counted. The Ontario economy is leading the G7 in economic growth. We’ve got unemployment numbers so low, that we haven’t seen in decades. The Ontario economy is doing well, and when this party had an opportunity to vote, just last week, they voted against paid sick days for Ontario workers, they voted against child death leave, crime-related leave, disappearance leave, pregnancy leave and domestic violence and sexual violence leave. These folks had an opportunity to stand up for working people in the province of Ontario—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Nepean–Carleton is warned. I’ll do this all morning if you like.

Carry on.

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Then, they put out the glossy magazine that tells us they’ve lost $12 billion in costs. They don’t know what to do to it. Then, they tell us they’re going to roll back the minimum wage—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Be seated, please.

New question.

Government advertising

Mr. Wayne Gates: My question is to the Acting Premier. Yesterday, the publicly owned Niagara-on-the-Lake Hydro issued a simple and straightforward request: Keep your political messages off our residents’ bills. Nobody likes to receive a bill, but right now the Ontario Energy Board forces local distributors to print Liberal messages on their bills. They’re forcing utilities to include lines that refer to savings from their hydro scheme, savings that aren’t actually there. The so-called savings this government is forcing them to print is nothing more than costs they’ve kicked down the road, a plan which won’t lower bills and won’t bring hydro back into public hands.

My question is simple, Mr. Speaker. Local distributors are asking the Liberals to stop forcing them to produce bills that contain their political advertising for a plan they don’t believe is actually creating savings. Will the Acting Premier listen to local distributors?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: To the Minister of Economic Development and Growth

Hon. Brad Duguid: I think the only people in this province who don’t want ratepayers to know they’re getting a 25% cut on their energy rates are the NDP, and maybe the PCs. I understand why the member would be upset that ratepayers are being informed that their bills are going down by 25%.

This government doesn’t design the energy bills. In fact, we’ve heard—and I’m sitting beside a previous energy minister—time and time again from ratepayers that they want to see ways to ensure that the bills are easier for ratepayers to understand. That’s what the OEB is looking at on behalf of ratepayers. I think they’re doing some good work in that respect.

But I do understand why the member wouldn’t want them to be aware of their 25% cut to their energy rates.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Wayne Gates: Again to the Acting Premier: Let me quote Jim Ryan, the chair of the publicly owned Niagara-on-the-Lake Hydro utility. He said, “Putting political messages on the invoice is simply wrong,” and frankly, we agree with him. Keep your political spin off people’s hydro bills.

In answer to his response, residents are smart enough to know that if their bills have gone up 300%, they aren’t seeing savings no matter how many times you write it on their bill. Will the Acting Premier stop insulting people whose bills have skyrocketed because of bad decisions and remove the political messaging from the peoples’ hydro bills as requested by local distributors?

Hon. Brad Duguid: There are no political messages on the bills at all. Informing ratepayers that they’re getting 25% off their energy costs is information—information that they deserve to have in spite of the efforts of the NDP to ensure that they don’t know that they’re getting 25% off.

Why would the member not want his constituents to know that their energy rates have gone down by 25%? The only reason I can think of is a political reason on their part, that they don’t want their members to know that we’ve brought energy rates down in the province of Ontario by 25%. We’re very proud of that.

At the same time, he ought to let his constituents know that we’ve also built a clean, reliable and affordable energy system in the province of Ontario. It hasn’t been easy. It’s taken a lot of investment. It’s taken a lot of time, but Ontarians have a clean, reliable, affordable energy system that they can be proud of.

Violence against women

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: My question is for the Minister of the Status of Women. Today is a day of national remembrance and action on violence against women. It is an emotional day for women and Canadians across the country, who remember with great sadness the events of December 6, 1989.

We will hold an annual commemorative event in my riding of Kingston and the Islands at Sydenham Street United Church, organized by Leigh Martins; I thank her for her efforts.

On December 6, 1989, 14 young women were murdered at l’École Polytechnique in Montreal. They were young women—engineers—and their lives were cut short by a senseless act of misogyny by a man who said he wanted to kill feminists.

Minister, can you tell me what this province is doing to challenge, every day, the deeply rooted attitudes that lead to violence against women?

Hon. Indira Naidoo-Harris: I’d like to thank the member from Kingston and the Islands for this very important question.

Speaker, 28 years have passed, but we will never forget what happened to those 14 young women, and to the women and girls who have suffered violence in this province.

As the Minister of the Status of Women, it is my priority to ensure that women and girls feel safe in this province, and to help build a society where women can live free from the fear or threat of violence.

But the harsh reality is that 83% of domestic violence victims are women. The reality is that women are four times more likely to be victims of homicide. The reality is that one in three women will experience some form of sexual violence or harassment in their lives.

That is why we are working tirelessly to improve the province’s response to domestic violence and to create a gender-based violence strategy. Our strategy will integrate the sexual violence and harassment action plan, the plan to end violence against indigenous women, and our human trafficking initiatives, and will update the Domestic Violence Action Plan.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: I would like to thank the minister for her answer.

The statistics are truly alarming. My colleague is right: We need to take action to change attitudes and perspectives on gender violence, because this affects us all.

Hashtags like #MeToo have shone a light on how prevalent sexual violence and harassment are in our homes, our workplaces and our communities. Women are showing enormous courage and strength by speaking out, and we need to make sure they know that we are listening.

Gender-based violence impacts not only survivors but their families, their workplaces, their communities and their relationships—forever.

Mr. Speaker, can the minister please outline specific new policies that address the needs of survivors of violence, and their families, in our communities across this province?

Hon. Indira Naidoo-Harris: Thanks to the member from Kingston and the Islands.

Speaker, I’m pleased to speak about the cross-government supports we are providing to Ontario women. Here is what we’re doing.

Working with the Ministry of Labour, we will be providing paid leave for survivors of domestic and sexual violence. This means that a survivor can keep their job and escape a violent and abusive relationship, to seek support and safety for themselves and their families.

With the Ministry of Housing, we are helping survivors of domestic violence and human trafficking to escape violent situations by providing faster access to housing through our portable housing benefit. These survivors will receive priority access to income-based social housing.

I’m also pleased to report that front-line workers in the hospitality, health, education and community services sectors are now able to access training to help them recognize and respond to sexual violence and harassment on the job. It’s part of It’s Your Shift.

We’re working hard to build a future free from the threat or fear of violence for women.

Highway safety

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is for the Minister of Transportation. Last week saw another tragic crash on Highway 401 in my riding, which left two people dead and four injured. Mayors in Leeds–Grenville took their concerns about highway safety to the minister way back in March, after a horrific fatal collision involving a hazardous chemical. They demanded action to make the highway safer and protect motorists and first responders, and the minister ignored them for six months.

Here’s how Prescott mayor Brett Todd described the ministry’s response: “We waited six months to get that first meeting. We lost a great deal of time there.”

Speaker, the minister is meeting with these frustrated mayors on December 15. Having wasted so much time spinning his wheels, what measures will he announce to end the carnage on our highways?

Hon. Steven Del Duca: I want to thank the member for his question. Of course, I have said many times in this chamber that whenever we have any injury—in particular, any fatality—on a highway anywhere in the province, it is something that the ministry obviously takes very seriously. Our condolences go out to the families of the loved ones who are involved.

I have had the opportunity—and the member from Leeds–Grenville would know this. He and I have actually specifically chatted. He has come to see me about this particular challenge that municipal leaders and the travelling public in eastern Ontario are facing.

The member did neglect to mention that I’ve already had one in-person meeting in Kingston with his mayor and a collection of other mayors from eastern Ontario. It took place a number of weeks ago. I found it to be a very productive meeting. I heard a variety of opinions and input provided by the mayors from eastern Ontario. I think they felt that that first meeting that took place weeks ago was a worthwhile meeting and set a very solid foundation for how we intend to move forward.

As I committed to at that meeting that took place weeks ago, I expect we’ll have an update in the next number of days to provide to the—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: Back to the minister: I want to remind the minister that the mayors aren’t coming to the table just to hear him talk. The only commitment this minister has made is that widening the increasingly congested highway to the six lanes we need isn’t happening. Despite the dangerous conditions, he says that eastern Ontario can wait. Let me tell the minister: That’s unacceptable, and we need to hear real solutions.

Since May, there have been 16 people killed and 18 people injured in a dozen crashes on the 401 between Trenton and Cornwall. The snow is flying and the busy holiday travel season is upon us. Again, my question: Why did the minister waste so much time, and what measures is he going to announce to make eastern Ontario highways safer and to save lives?

Hon. Steven Del Duca: As I said in the first answer to this member, we at the ministry and I, specifically, take this area of responsibility extremely seriously. I have said on many occasions the safety of our roads and highways, from my perspective, is not meant to be nor should it ever be a partisan issue.

I have to say, despite my best efforts to convey that message not only to that member, to his leader, to their team but also to our municipal partners, it is borderline shameful that this member would stand and try to take some sort of partisan jab over an issue that is extremely important to me, to the ministry, to the travelling public and ultimately to his—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Niagara West–Glanbrook is warned.

Carry on.

Hon. Steven Del Duca: As I was saying, as members in this House know, for the last 16 consecutive years, the province of Ontario has ranked first or second across North America for road and highway safety. It will be my pleasure to continue to work with Mayor Todd, the rest of the eastern region mayors, the OPP and the ministry to make sure that we get this right.

Group homes

Mrs. Lisa Gretzky: To the Acting Premier: Yesterday, I rose in this House to talk about a man named Esa who died trying to escape the horrific conditions in an unlicensed group home. Esa paid the landlord almost $4,000 for one month in that mouse-infested basement, where he frequently was locked inside.

Sadly, Esa’s situation is not unique. “You could see the cockroaches swarming, almost a moving carpet,” one man said of his time in an illegal home. Countless other residents have reported unsanitary linens, overcrowding and going for days without food.

My colleague from Welland introduced Bill 135 in May, which would establish a framework for the licensing of these homes. If the government is not willing to create more spaces in long-term care and affordable, accessible housing, then the very least they could do is establish a framework for licensing.

Is this Liberal government willing to make the commitment today, pass Bill 135 and license and regulate these group homes?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: To the Minister of Health.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: I’m happy to speak to this important question. I share the concern that’s raised by the member opposite that these stories from individuals who rely on these environments—care homes, group homes—to provide the necessary supports, to provide an environment which is conducive to their getting well and staying well—these reports are definitely troubling.

I think the member understands that there are a variety of individuals who may avail themselves of these types of residences, so this is necessarily an effort that requires work across ministries. I’ve asked my ministry to take the lead to look at the situation in care homes and group homes, particularly those where we find vulnerable individuals, and to interact with stakeholders, clients and residents themselves to find out what more can be done.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mrs. Lisa Gretzky: Back to the Acting Premier. We finally know who is responsible for this issue: the Minister of Health, who yesterday said that it was a “cross-ministry issue,” meaning that the people who have lived and died in these horrendous conditions should look to all the ministries that have failed them.

The Ministry of Health has failed to ensure there are enough long-term-care beds, mental health supports and housing for people leaving hospitals.

The Ministry of Community and Social Services has failed people with developmental disabilities who face a decade-long wait-list for housing.

The Ministry of Seniors Affairs has failed to address dire issues of seniors living in poverty.

The Ministry of Housing and the Poverty Reduction Strategy has failed to provide support to municipalities to crack down on these unlicensed homes with numerous safety violations.

Saying that this is a complex, multi-ministerial issue does not excuse this Liberal government for ignoring this problem for years. Will we get a commitment for immediate action today so that nobody else has to live or die in these horrendous conditions?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: The member opposite surely knows that municipalities have oversight. They have the regulatory ability to pass bylaws, and many, if not most of them, do.

I know that she’s heckling right now. This is a very serious issue, and we’re taking it seriously, Mr. Speaker. There is no government before this government that has stood up for and created stronger regulatory environments for long-term-care homes. We’ve strengthened oversight and responsibility for child care, for daycare and for retirement homes. All of those were completely unlicensed and unregulated under an NDP government. We have provided the strongest regulatory environment for these facilities in the history of Ontario.

I have committed to have my ministry take the lead to look at group homes and care homes, which contain a variety of individuals under municipal oversight. We’ll look at it with stakeholders and with residents to see what might be done.

Landlords

Mr. Jack MacLaren: My question is to the Minister of Housing. Eli Saghbini is a landlord who is suffering the unfairness of the Landlord and Tenant Board and the rules which heavily favour the tenant. Eli had a tenant who did not pay the rent on August 1. He filed the Landlord and Tenant Board N4 form on August 2, the Landlord and Tenant Board L1 form on August 16, went to a Landlord and Tenant Board hearing on September 18, got an eviction notice for September 30, and called the sheriff on October 2 to post an eviction notice on the tenant’s door to leave by October 12.

The tenant left. Two and a half months had passed, and Eli is out of pocket $4,000 plus costs. This isn’t fair. Minister, can you help Eli by restoring fairness for him and all landlords?

Hon. Peter Z. Milczyn: I want to thank the member for Carleton–Mississippi Mills for the question. I want to express empathy toward Eli Saghbini and to reassure that we understand their concerns and that there are protections in place for situations like these.

Small landlords have a critical role to play in providing housing throughout the province. We know that the vast majority of landlords are fair, reasonable and hard-working.

The RTA, which came into effect in January 2007, lays out the legal framework for governing landlord-tenant relationships in Ontario. It also created the Landlord and Tenant Board. We’re proud that the Landlord and Tenant Board is able to answer approximately half a million calls per year from tenants and landlords and process about 80,000 applications per year.

Tenants and landlords may apply to the LTB as well as go to Small Claims Court to resolve disputes. We’re committed to supporting this co-operative system that helps both landlords and tenants, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Jack MacLaren: To the Minister of Housing again: Eli Saghbini is a small businessman who is struggling to cope with the landlord-tenant rules that are not fair to landlords. Eli offers the following suggestions for changes: (1) create a problem tenant directory; (2) allow landlords to collect a damage deposit; (3) shorten the time for the N4 form notice of application from two weeks to one day; (4) shorten the time for the L1 form application to the hearing from four weeks to one week; and (5) reduce the landlord application fee from $190 to $50, the same as the tenant.

These changes would create fairness for landlords and tenants. Minister, will you make these changes?

Hon. Peter Z. Milczyn: I want to assure the House that we’re committed to ensuring that landlords and tenants are always protected under the law. This government also knows that small business people have so much to offer this province, and we understand the pressures that are sometimes put on them.

Mr. Speaker, I note the member has listed a number of suggestions that he has, but I want to remind the House that before a tenancy starts under the Residential Tenancies Act, it allows landlords to do the due diligence, to do credit checks, to check on past rental history, references and guarantees, and to comply with the Ontario Human Rights Code when they ask these questions. Landlords have the opportunity to do this due diligence. We maintain that by doing this, landlords can protect themselves.

It provides for a fast-tracked eviction process. It allows landlords to evict when deliberate damage is done to a unit and it protects other—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

New question.

Economic development

Ms. Ann Hoggarth: My question is to the Minister of Economic Development and Growth. There’s a lot going on with the global economy, and a lot of uncertainty. It appears that here, we can be confident that Ontario’s economy is headed in the right direction.

Parents in my community want to know that their kids are going to have access to employment, workers want to know that their jobs are safe for the foreseeable future, and business owners want to know that Ontario is a good place to invest and grow business. I want to assure the people and families in my riding of Barrie of just how strong our economy is today. Can the minister please provide an update on Ontario’s economic progress in light of this month’s jobs numbers?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I’m delighted to inform the member that this past month, we’ve seen a record amount of job growth in Ontario. We’re up 43,500 net new jobs in the province of Ontario. That is the largest increase since February 2008, before the global recession.

We also passed another milestone last Friday. We have now created over 800,000 net new jobs since the global recession. More accurately, that’s 843,200 net new jobs. We continue to lead the G7 in growth. Our unemployment rate also hit a new low at 5.5%. That’s the lowest unemployment rate we’ve seen in 17.5 years in the province of Ontario.

Mr. Speaker, there’s every reason to be confident that Ontario’s economy is doing well today and we’re headed in the right direction.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Ann Hoggarth: Thank you to the minister for that answer. This is great news to the families all across Ontario.

There is no question that our investments in people and infrastructure and our business growth initiatives are paying off for the people of this province. There’s no question that this economy is doing extremely well. This is shown again by the fantastic job numbers this month—43,500 net new jobs in one month is remarkable—along with the lowest unemployment rate in 17 and a half years at 5.5%.

In fact last year, in my riding of Barrie, unemployment was the highest in the province at 7.9%. Now it is at 3.4%, the lowest in the province and second-lowest in the country. That translates to over 17,000 jobs in my home town of Barrie in the last year alone.

However, there are uncertainties today in the global economy, whether it’s NAFTA, Brexit or emerging technology. Can the minister outline to this House what risks exist for our economy going into the future?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Mr. Speaker, Ontario is in a position of strength. Being in a position of strength means that if we stay the course, we can withstand any risks that emerge in the changing global economy, be they risks from NAFTA or emerging technologies or any other types of global change.

We’ve also stepped up when it comes to the new economy. We want to ensure that we’re at the cutting edge of technological development. I would say that Ontario is not only a leader in economic growth for today’s economy, but we’re going to be a leader in economic growth for many decades ahead. That means we will be able to pass on to our next generation an economy that we can be proud to pass on to them, that comes with the opportunities many of us have had in the past—maybe even greater opportunities. That would not be happening without the investments we’ve made in our people, our talent, innovation, infrastructure—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

Group homes

Ms. Laurie Scott: To the Minister of Children and Youth Services: 10 months ago a group home in Oakwood, in my riding, burned to the ground killing two people, including one child. This sad incident highlighted many flaws in our province’s management of group homes.

This past week we saw a disturbing

article in the Toronto Star about the abuse and violence faced by group home staff, as well as the lack of training and oversight by the ministry.

As a member of the government’s panel reviewing the residential care system put it, “You know your system is based on the flimsiest of foundations when you have absolutely no standards on who can do this work.”

The Ontario Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth had previously said he is fed up with the situation, but we have seen little action from this government.

Why is the government allowing our children and care workers to live in such terrible conditions?

Hon. Michael Coteau: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member opposite for the question.