Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MAY 6, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 64

May 6, 1974. The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 1526 (Afternoon) PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourablP. member for White Bay South. RH - 1 MR. W.N. ROWE: I beg the forbearance of the House, Sir, to present three petitions which I received in the last few days from communities in my district, the district of White Bay South. The first one, Sir, is a petition from just about all of the residents, I believe, nearly all if not all of the community of Seal Cove, White Bay South. The

preamble which is not done out in strict form but is in the nature of a letter with the petition appended thereto is as follows: "We express our dissatisfaction with the condition of the road from Seal Cove, White Bay to Baie Verte, a distance of nine miles. Since this was the first road built in the area after Confederation we feel it should be given some priority. In October of 1973 a letter was received from, and they name an official here, Sir, which I do not want to read to the public record, an official of the Department of Highways stating that crushed material was placed on the entire length of the road.

This statement to our knowledge is false and misleading. In light of the very little co-operation we are receiving we are once again submitting a petition with the hope of getting some action in the very near future. Approximately two hundred people travel this road daily to work and the school bus with standing room only carries arotmd seventy children to the school in Baie Verte. In view of the amount of taxation paid by these wage earners into the economy of the country,we feel that the time has come for action on this piece of highway." Sir, I support this petition completely and wholeheartedly.

I know that the roads which they refer to in this letter appended to the petition has become over the last few months a morass, a quagmire over which it is nearly impossible to travel. The only remedy, Sir, of course is to upgrade the road and to pave it at the earliest opportunity. I do hope that the government takes the prayer of this petition to heart 5258

May 6, 1974. Tape 1526 (Afternoon) RH - 2 Sir, which I support completely and that before too long, hopefully during this construction season,they can upgrade that road. It is a short road, Sir, serving quite a number of people, nine mile road. It should not cost too much out of the public treasury to do the upgrading on that and in due course to have the road paved.

The second petition, Sir, is from the community of Coachman's Cove in White Bay South and !!;Oes as follows: "We the undersigned people of Coachman's Cove hereby petition the government to take necessary action to have the road from the pavement end at Baie Verte to Coachman's Cove upgraded immediately and subsequently paved at the earliest possible date." That petition, Sir, is signed by I believe. everyone who was in the community at the time, signed by just about everybody in Coachman's Cove and has a letter attached to it from the connnunity council at Coachman's Cove wherein they support the petition as well.

They say that this stretch of road which was constructed about fifteen years ago has not seen substantial upgrading and very little repair since that time. "We are now asking as taxpayers of this Province that something be done immediately in our favour." That is signed by the Chairman of the Community Council at Coachman's Cove. Sir, once again my remarks concerning the Seal Cove petition apply equally as well to the petition from Coachman's Cove.

I do hope that the government with its $46 mi-llion of construction money this year is able to find some to reconstruct or upgrade,at the very least, this road to Coachman's Cove. Thirdly, Sir, and finally I have a petition which is signed by the teachers and students of a school in Baie Verte but it is signed by the students who come from Fleur de Lys and Coachman's Cove. The two coumunities are not far apart, to go from those two communities by bus to go to school in Baie Verte. "We the undersigned of this petition, teachers and students of St.

Pius Tenth, bus drivers and parents who have not signed the previously forwarded l'etition, 1' I placed a petition before this House from the same community, Sir, some weeks ago demanding that the highway between 5259

Hay 6, 1974. Tape 1526 (Afternoon) RH - 3 Fleur de Lys, Coachman's Cove and Baie Verte be paved. This is a matter of safety and protection for persons travelling on that highway and using the school bus.

There is a letter again, Sir, appended to the petition,from one of the students,in which he makes mention of an incident in which his elderly uncle, eighty-six year old uncle who was taking with some kind of a medical emergency had to be"rushed"to the hospital - I use the word ''rushed", Sir, with quotes around it-was rushed to the hospital and took an hour and twelve minutes to drive those fifteen or so miles from Fleur de Lys to Baie Verte. That was an emergency,of course, so they were probably taking every kind of a risk to do so.

I think, Sir, the facts of these petitions or the prayers of these petitions and the facts that we have all heard in this House during the present debate on the estimates speak for themselves. I think, as I have said in the House and said publicly, that the road conditions, the condition of the gravel roads throughout this Province have reached a record low. I know that since I have been member of the House of Assembly some seven or eight years, I have never had so much- what would one call it? Well, com­ munication certainly from the district but communication of a different kind.

It is almost a sense of desperation and people are becomillf: desperate about the condition of their gravel roads. Without wanting to get into a debate on it, Sir, I will simply emphasize what I have said before,that I support these petitions. I ask that they be received by this honourable House and referred to the department to which they relate. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hermitage. MR. R. SIMKJNS: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition ort behalf of eighty-four residents at Mccallum in my district.

The petition relates to the desperate need in that community for a water system, Perhaps if I could read the petition, it summarizes the problem very well, "We the undersigned citizens of McCallum want a water system for Mccallum. We were promised a water system when the by-elction was held here in 1973. 52ti0

May 6, 1974. Tape 1526 (Afternoon) RH - 4 The government said the system would be installed before winter. Winter is over and we are still waiting. They (the Government) brought in a drill rig when the election was being campaigned. As soon as the election was over it was taken out. People here were still left with polluted waters to drink. The water we are drinki~ is surface water. It has been tested and termed polluted and unfit for drinking purposed by the Department of Health.

Sometimes when the water is being boiled after a heavy rain it smells and · if you by chance try to steam food with it it tastes too bad to eat. We feel that if the majority of our community are taxpayers we deserve better than this. Winter time we have to go in a boat,no matter how bad the weather,to get water to drink and cook with. At times we have had to melt ice to get water for washing and such purposes. We feel that if the Provincial Government cannot finance the cost of a water system then it should make application to the Federal Government for assistance.

We want some commitment made to supply us with a water system before much more time passes." As I have said, Mr. Speaker, that petition has been signed by eighty-four residents of McCallum and that would certainly constitute almost every adult citizen in the Col!DDunity of Mccallum. The fact that just about everybody in Mccallum has signed the petition is itself, Mr. Speaker, a clear testimony of how strongly and how united in their concern they are concerning this matter. Not only, Mr.

Speaker, do they have lots of reason to be united but they have plenty of reason to be very frustrated because they have all ready had commitments,including at least one commitment in writing from the present administration,to install some kind of a water system in the community. There are studies.

At least two engineering studies have been done with respect to water facilities in this cmmnunity and while one of the studies recommends a method which is quite costly, it is for government to say if it is too costly, but there is another method which has been reconnnended and which is not being pursued to my satisfaction nor to the satisfaction of the people in the co111D1Unity. 5261

May 6, 1974. Tape 1526 (Afternoon) RH - 5 I did start to say, Mr. Speaker, that the people of McCalllJl!I have had at least one written c0111111itment an.d so what they said in the petition about a commitment for a water system before winter sets in is not a rather loose rendering of some promise made to them but almost a word for word repetition of a promise that had been made.

Indeed I am now looking at the letter in which that promise was made to the people of McCallum by a minister in the present administration who wrote on November 5 and said in part that it was the government's intention to install a water system before winter sets in. Now if they had done so, Mr. Speaker, it would certainly have been some kind of a record,keeping in mind that the letter was only written .on · November 5 but that is by the way now because the winter has come and gone, as the petition points out.

I would implore upon the Minister of Municipal Affairs who himself is involved in the making of that commitment and implore upon his colleagues in government to do something concrete other than make promises, do something concrete about the very desperate need which exists in this cononunity. It is not the case of people looking for a more · convenient way or looking for a slight improvement in an already good situation or fair situation. It is a group of Newfoundlanders who are asking what must be one of the basic rights of anybody anywhere, that they have good drinking water.

Through no fault of their own they do not ~ave it. I say it would not take any great sum of money. I have seen the goverID11ent's study on this point. I implore the Minister of Municipal Affairs to expedite this matter so that the people of Mccallum have an adequate water system in this present year. I beg leave to introduce the petition and ask that it be referred to the department to which it relates. MOTIONS: MR. J. OTTENHEIMER: I give notice that I shall on tomorrow ask leave to present the following bill, "An Act Further To ,\Jl)end The Local School Tax Act." MR. J. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow as leave of the House to move the House into a Committee of the Whole - 5262

May 6, 1974. Tape 1526 (Afternoon) RH - 6 to consider certain resolutions in relation to the advancing or gauranteeing of certain loans and to move the House into a Committee of the Whole to consider a resolution in relation to the raising of loans on the credit of the Province. MR. H. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Local Government Act, 1972." MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could with permission of the House revert to ministerial statements.

I have a short statement here that I wish to make in connection with pensioners. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave to make a ministerial statement? On motion agreed. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the government announces that a Group Medical Insurance Plan is to be made available to Provin.cial Government pensioners and anticipated implementation dated June 1, 1974. I might explain that certain of the government pensioners when they were in government service, some of them werein a Group Medical Insurance Plan.

Even though they went on pension they stayed in that plan, That has all been replaced now by a new Group Life and Medical Insurance Plan financed by the govern­ ment and our employees. That does not cover pensioners. So arrangements have been made - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: I will come to that. Arrangements have been made for a Group Medical Insurance Plan to be made available to Provincial Government pensioners as of June 1.

Coverage provided under this plan will be similiar to that available under previous plans which were cancelled by various insurance companies since the beginning of this Y,ear. The Mutual Life Assurance Company of Canada has agreed to under­ write this plan which will provid~ coverage for the following items: First:eighty per cent of prescription drug cost; second, the difference between the ward rate and the semi-private rate for hospital beds and third, the cost of major medical items such as hearing aids, wheelchairs and 5263

May 6, 1974. Tape 1526 (Afternoon) RH - 7 ambulance services, etc. The Provincial Government has agreed to contribute fifty per cent of the total premium leaving the cost of the pensioner $6.46 per month for single coverage and $12.92 per month for married or dependant coverage. Letters are now being mailed to the various pensioners informing them of the new plan. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS TO WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: (See index attached) ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Premier intends to comment upon a statement that was made on national television on Saturday night by P.C. Senator O'Leary,that if therewere an election called that the P.C.s would lose one seat in Newfoundland because of "that fool" that is running the affairs of Newfoundland at the present time. Does the Premier care to comment on that? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am sure the honourable member for Bell Island is well aware that the question period is designed to ask questions for which an urgent and immediate answer is required. I do not quite con­ sider that to suit. MR.

NEARY: In view of the fact that it was on national television,! thought that it was urgent, Sir, and the Premier is anything but a fool, believe me. I am only trying to get Newfoundland's reputation back, Sir. Perhaps the Premier would care to comment on it. HON. F.D. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, only in the context that elder statesmeD and spokesmen in the Liberal and P.C. Party have been know to wander every now and then. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier could give us some infor- mation on his meeting this morning with the representative of Reids on the land controversy in this Province. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. MR. MOORES: We had a meeting this morning, Mr. Speaker, with Mr. Reid and his people as well as the representative from the Department of Forestry, including the minister. The situation is,now that we have talked to Mr. Reid 5264

Hay 6, 1974. Tape 1526 (Afternoon) RH - 8 about his proposal, we are in a position now to start drafting a govern­ ment position that we feel will be satisfactory, which we will be making available to Hr. Reid as quickly as it can be compiled. I can assure this honourable House that the proposal that we will be draftin~ for Hr. Reid and his company will be in the best interests of the people of this Province. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Will the Premier indicate then that all land sale will be frozen until the matter is negotiated between the government - MR.

M>ORES: Until such time as this has either been concluded or otherwise, Hr. Speaker. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I understand the Premier was in Churchill Falls over the weekend throwing oil on troubled waters down there. Would the Premier indicate what the problems are at Churchill Falls? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the honourable member, that comment is totally irresponsible. There are no troubled waters in Churchill Falls, as a matter of fact quite the reverse. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, then Mr. Speaker.

The Premier or his minister did indicate that there were problem~ at Churchill Falls. Does this mean there are resignations of the senior officials down there? What are the problems at Chruchill Falls? MR. ·MOORES: There was never indicated, Mr. Speaker, that there were problems at Churchill Falls, to the best of my knowledge - to be as facetious as the member for Bell Island. We wnet down to see if the place we bought was still there. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the minister could tell us,because it was the minister who said that there were problems down there that needed to be ironed out.

Would the minister care to c0111D.ent on the meetings? What were they all about? What are the problems down at Churchill Falls? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. HON. W. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, at the risk of exhibiting to the honourable House an inferiority COIIIJ>lex,he usually gets to me after fifteen or twenty 5265

May 6, 1974. Tape 1526 (Afternoon) RH - 9 shots to the Premier. Eventually he wilL There are some problems at Churchill Falls certainly none that are not capable of being handled very properly if irresponsible people like the honourable member for Bell Island do not keep saying that there are problems there. HR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: Excuse me. Sir, I think he wants to make a speech. I will answer the - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: a speech? MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: Inaudible. Order, please! Am I to answer a question, Sir, or does he want to make Carry on, boy! Do not be so childish.

There are really no problems in Churchill Falls that I know of right now. We have ongoing conversations with the senior management and with the other people that are working there. Things are working very well indeed. We have no resignations that I know of at all since the government's involvement. Things are going along very well and we are just keeping the people aware of government's position. They are telling us what their input and what their concerns are. I really see no problems at the present time and hopefully there will be none. HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, to get back to the honourable the Premier again, Sir, I still did not get any information, I still do not know what the problems are. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The honourable member did not ask a question yet. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I gave the minister a chsnce to answer the question and he did not answer it. We will find out eventually because I understand there are resignations at Churchill Falls. Would the Premier care to revise his answer that he gave the other day concerning a statement made by the honourable Mr.

Jameison in connectio~ with the increase in the cost now of developing the Lower Churchill? Mr. Jameison today stated that you ·could not use that old trick of saying he was misquoted,because he was not mis­ quoted and that the government had not taken into consideration certain 5266

May 6, 1974. Tape 1526 (Afternoon) RH - 10 costs of the Lower Churchill when they said it was going to cost $1.2 billion, I think it was. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the government's position is exactly the same as it was before. There is no reason to date,with the exception of the increase in bond rates, interest rates _,,.. 5267

May 6, 1974 Tape 1527 (afternoon) IB-1 throughout the world,which can have a bearing on it. That bearing would have nothing like the amount that Mr. Jamieson talked about at that time. Mr. Jamieson phoned me immediately after that question was asked in the House and the subsequent publicity, to advise me that he was also talking about the inter-island system that would have to be developed. He assumed that that was not in our fi~re. What it boils down to: I am sure that Mr. Jamieson was quoted accurately, ~r.

Speaker, but we are saying as far as the Gull Island project is concerned there were a great many· figures used that were not relevant to that particular project. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir. Could the Premier indicate now then what the correct figure is? What is the estimated cost of the development of the Lower Churchill. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, when the contracts are let and we have the actual bids, we will be able to do that exactly for the honourable member. MR. NEARY: That is shiftjng the ground, Sir. In other words they do not know. Sir, that is about the size of it.

I wonder if the Premier could clear up this matter of the dispute, the confrontation that is developing between the province and Ottawa on the jurisdiction of offshore mineral rights. I am sure that the Premier would like to set the record straight. Is it not a fact, is this not the position, that it will only go to the Supreme Court.by mutual agreement between the province and Ottawa? ls this not the position? Or if there should be no agreement reached, that Ottawa shall take the province to court or the province shall take Ottawa to court? Just what is the situation?

It seems like there is a confrontation developing here. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, on the legal

interpretation,the Minister of Justice can answer much better than I can in that regard. I can tell the honourable member for Bell Island the province's 5268

~av fi,1974 Tape 1527 (afternoon) IB-2 position regarding offshore oil. When the Prime ~inister announced in the House that the federal government would be taking the province of Newfoundland to court, this particular statement did not bother us very much except that there was a letter in the mail at the ti111e to the Prime Mjnister suggesting that a negotiated settlement would be the better way to do it because court cases of that sort take, not unusually it could be as lone as a couple of years. We take the position, Mr.

Speaker, under no uncertain tems or without any intention of giving, that this province and the i,eonle of this province have the right in effect to control our own destiny throughout our own lands. We consider the continental shelf to be under provincial jurisdiction. Now, I can say at the same time that a negotiated political settlement, as long as the terms of reference are right. that jurisdiction situation can be put to one side.

However. if we cannot sit down and negotiate all the many terms that have to be negotiated on such a major policy decision, such as at what rate will future discoveries if they are made be developed, at what rate will the development be in the province? Does the provinc~_have first call on the oil? Does the province have the first call on the servicing of the rigs and on the supplying of the rigs? Exactly what are the terms and conditions and regulations that will be put into play? We are ready to sit down with the federal r,ovemment and talk about all these matters and put jurisdiction to one side.

However, if that is not satisfactory to the federal government, we are nrepared to go to court. MR. NEARY, Mr. Speaker, would the Premier indicate then if it is correct that he and I believe at least three or two or three of his ministers have been invited to Ottawa to sit down and talk this matter over with Mr. McDonald, the federal !-finister of Mines and Energy_, or the Prime Minister1 t-lR. ¥00PFS: ~r. Speaker, it is totally incorrect. I will he going to Ottawa later this week to have a meetinP- with the Prime ~inister.to~ether with a couple of my colleagues and a few 5269

May 6, 1974 Tape 1527 (afternoon) IB-3 federal cabinet ministers,on a totally different subject. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Finance could indicate to the House if it is correct that the duty will come off West Indies rum as of July l this year? HON. J.C. CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): I will have to take that under investigation, Mr. Speaker. I hope it is true but it is not a matter that affects me of course because I do not drink West Indies rum. AN HONOURABLE ME1'1BER: Champagne only . MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, seeing the Minister of Industrial Development is so talkative today, I wonder if the minister would care to inform the House if communications between his office and the }•inister of DREE,as would appear the case in his statement over the weekend, his sarcastic, caustic, sneering statement - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate if there is a breakdown in communications between his office and the minister's office in ~ Ottawa in connection with the investigatic:Jlt(, the studies that are being made in connection with a steel mill ·for Newfoundland? I' HON. W.

DOODY(MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): No, Mr. Speaker, there has been no breakdown in communications between our office and the office of the Department of Regional . and Economic Expansion in Ottawa. The steel mill thing, we have never been consulted at all on it. MR. NF.ARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister indicate then if he has been kept fully informed on what is going on in this connection. would the minister indicate if he intends :,o Jrotest either in writin1 or orally to the minister on this group who came in here a week or two ago and made a whirlwind tour, as the minister called it, and then took off back to Ottawa? Does the minister intend to protest this? MR. DOODY: I understand from the content of the question that my protest has already been interpreted as a protest by the honourable 52"/0

May f,, 1974 Tape 1527 (afternoon) IB-4 member a·cross the floor. Certainly we will protest at any time that Ottawa decides to take unilateral action to decide where or when or if some major significant event should take olace in the province. We have expressed it verbally and in writing and shall continue to do so. '-ffi. NEAP.Y: ~r. Speaker, I have one more question for the ~inister of Transportation down here or the Minister of Justice. I am not ouite sure whose jurisdiction it comes under, Sir, but I will put the question to the ~inister of Transportation. Has the minister received any representation either from (

a) truckers, either individually or collectively or (

b) from concerned businessmen who are objecting to one firm get tin11 a monopoly to pick up freight on the St. John's waterfront? If so, what does the minister intend to do about this situation? WiU any protection be given the independant truckers who have been supplying th:l.s service frr a good many years on the waterfront? MR. T.P. RICKEY (MINISTER O"P TRANSPORTATION): Well, Mr. Speaker, I attended a meeting on Friday with some memhers of the Board of Trade and the Truckers Association.

We have been made aware of the situation, We have been aware of certa:fn discussions between Newfoundland Steamships or Clarks Steamships and the Board of Trade and CN with regards to occupancy of certain properties on the waterfront and their request for additional space. The latest situation with regards to the truckers is one which has developed within recent weeks. I cannot say that we are in a position as a government to deal directly with it. Our role in this kind of situAtion is a - it is in a very sensitive area.

It is one of liaison and supervision or bringin~ the various parties together rather than anything else. I do not think we can take unilateral action. However, the situation is ,mder control as far as we are concerned. There are meetings going on. There is an additional meeting _set for I believe t'lo'O weeks from now. :MR. F. ROWE: Mr, Speaker, I wonder if the Premier or the Minister of Industrial Development could inform the House as to what is goinii; 5271

May 6, 1974 Tape 1527 (afternoon) IB-5 on in Savage Cove,in the electoral district of St. Barbe North, where I understand a number of tents or a , camp site have been erected at the present time. Rumor has it that they are getting ready to proceed with the building of a tunnel rmder the Straits of Belle Isle. Could the Premier or the Minister of Industrial Development inform the House as to what exactly is going on up there? MR. DOODY: The minister just got back from a savage cove. No, Mr. Spe~ker, there is no unrest among the natives of Savage Cove as far as I know.

The tents that are being set up there are in connection with some 9urvey work that has to be done at the Straits crossing and the extra work that has to be done on the geologicaL This may be something less than the answer that the member is looking for but I will undertake to find exactly what the tents are doing up there. As far as I knew, we had things pretty well straightened out as regards to the treaties with the people involved in that area. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, that is not an entirely satisfactory answer.

I realize that the minister probably has to dig up the information but if something is going on up there and if the minister looks at the picture of the map on page 33 of the Budget Speech, Savage Cove happens to be the place where the transmission line connects with the island portion of the province. Could the minister inform the House, Mr. Speaker, as to who is doing this work at the present time. What company or whether tenders have been called for the survey work? AN HONOURABLE f.lEMllER: James G.Reid and Sons. MR. DOODY: No, James G. Reid and Sons are not involved as far as I know.

Now, the work that is going on there and the work that will he going on will be under the continued agreement that the government has with BRINCO at the present time and they are looking after that very end,in consultation with and in conjunction with the Teshmonts and their group. It is part of the ongoing programme 5272

nay fi , 1974 Tape 1527 ( af t ern oon) Ill-6 of .findinp; the information that is necessary to decide whether or not it should be a suhmarine crossin~ or a tunnel crossing or a cable crossing. MR. 1". ROWE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. This is really what I was p;etting at.

Was it the intention of the surveyors of the company or the government involved to consider the possibility of building a transmission tunnel instead of a submarine cable under the Straits,in order to do an analysis of the rock structure and this sort of a thing in order to have a look at the feasibility of putting a passenger tunnel at a later date? !ffi.· DOODY.:. Well, three questions later, this is what the whole thing is ahout.

In order to find out whether it is economically feasible to do one or the other, they are now puttin~ tents up in Savage Cove so that they can get th~ work done and to find out what the answer is to the question that the honourahl e member has just asked. 'IR. NEARY: }Ir, Speaker, I wonder if the ~inister of Tourism could inform the House if he is responsible for this place mat, this very colorful place mat, "Newfoundland, Confederation Celebration, 1949- . .r-~ 1974. '' nown un_demeath ''The Ode To Newfoundland" and ''Let us Celebrate Togeth~r• · and a fish net down in the corner.

Could the minister tell us if his department is responsible for the distribution of this? HON. T. DOYLE (MINISTER OF TOURISM): No, we are not, Mr, Speaker. MR. NEARY: Thank r.od, ~r. Speaker, because that is printed in Ontario. Sir, I wonder if the Minister of Fisheries or the Minister of Fural Development could inform the House if they are going to Japan to look at equipment that is manufactured in Japan or is it manufactured in some other country? Would the Minister of Fisheries care to answer that? MR. H. COLLINS (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Mr.

Speaker, I presume the honourable member is referring to a statement which my colleague, the Minister of Rural Development 9 made a few days ago concerning a proposed trip to Japan to take a look at the way they do things 5273

May 6, 1974 Tape 1527 (afternoon) IB-7 down there, the way they handle our spawny caplin. They seem to be past masters at putting those in those nice cans. They tin them in cans. We want to have a look at the industry down there to see what might be of interest to us. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I was going to say all the spawny caplin are - but I will not. Would the minister care to inform the House just how many other people will be accompanying him and the Minister of Rural Development on this trip. How many officials of both departments? How many other people will be going on this trip to Japan?

Where in Japan are they going? MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am speaking from a lack of knowledge. As I say, the honourabll? member is referring to a statement which my colleague made over the weekend. He did mention it to me and ask me if I would like to go along. Just who is going or anything else - it is a proposed trip which the minister indicated to newsmen that he was proposing to take. Just when it will be, who will go we do not know. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, with the reputation of the massage parlors in Tokoyo, who would not want to go on a trip to Japani' I wish the minister would ask me to go.

Is the minister going to spend thousands of dollars of the taxpayers' money and just brush it off? He does not know where he is going, what he is r,oing to see or - 'MR. COLLINS: I did not say I was going. 'MR. NEARY: Well, the ~inister of Rural Development said the minister was going. ~LLiNS: Perhaps the ~inister might have said that the honourable member was going. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. COLLINS: Well, is the minister going? MR. MOORES: I would just like to say that I heard the same announcement and there is nothing definitely decided about any trip to Japan at this time.

There is a possibility that with their very advanced methods in fishing and other areas that such a trip could be contemplated but there is nothing decided on at this stage. 5274

May f.i, 1974 Tape 1527 (afternoon) lll-8 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Rural Development goinR to be in his seat today so we can p,et some informatJ.on out of him about this trip? Perhaps 'Ir. Rursey down there who has had tremendous experience in this can P.iVP. them all the information they need. They do not have to ~o to Japan to get the information. !'ffi· ~OORES: Mr. Speaker, we miFht even consider including the member for Bell Island because they tell me they havp an excellent method over there of eviscerating the trash fish as well as the other types. "'R. SPEAKER: Order, please!

"-P. r.ROSBIE: ~Ir. Speaker, may I answer a written question'l It is one of the few. It is question number lQ on the Order Paper, April Q MR. SPEAKEP: Tloes the honourable minister have leave to give the answer to the question. Agreed. 1-rn. r.ROSBIF.: The question was asked hy the honourable member for White Bay South who asked something about the Cape Lounge Limited, The answer is that the Newfoundland Liquor Licensing Board has not received an application from a Cape Lounge Limited for a licerw to sell beer, wine and spirits at an establishment to be built on Shea Heights.

Therefore, I have not made a decision on the application, There is also a written reply too in case the honourable member did not grasp that, MR, SP1'AT<F.l1: Order, please! It has just been brought to my attention that we have from the Charisma Collegiate in f.pringdale twenty-six p,rade XI students with their teachers.Mr. vercer, ~r. Carew. On behalf of all the members of the House of Assembly I wish to welcome you to the galleries today and trust that your visit here is most interesting. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply. Mr.

Speaker left the Chair, MR, CHAIR1".AN (1'1R, STAGG): Order, please! The honourable member for White Bay South. MR. W. ROWE: I presume, Sir, we are still on the same subhead. ¥R. CHAIR'IAN ('!R. STAG<;): 1701-(01) .-n:lnister's salary, Transportation /'76/-/P/ 52}5

May 6, 1974 Tape 1527 (afternoon) IB-9 and Communications. MR. W. ROWF.: That is right , ~ir. There is an awful racket around the committee today, Sir. Very short statement, Sir, and a very brief question but I think i.t is a matter of some importance and I would like to hear the ~inister of Highways have something to say about it. I have not been doing too much dri.ving on our - ?-IR. CHAIR~AN (MR. ~TAr.G): Order, please! Honourable gentlemen to my left seem to be engaging in a number of conversations which interfer with the Chair's

interpretation of what is heing said and so on. I think that the honourable member to my right, the member for White Bay South.has the right to be heard in silence. MR. W. ROWE: Thank you, Sir, for your protection. I have not done too much driving around the Trans-Canada Highway this spring, Sir, contrary to other years. I did over this weekend drive from here to Marystown. It was nighttime driving one night, Sir.

I have to confess to the minister and to the co11111ittee that although I think I drove prudently and with as much care as I could muster, the trip, Sir, especially on the Trans-Canada Highway, was one of the most dangerous ordeals that I have ever gone through in my life. There w~s a light snow falling and, Sir, I had no idea half the time if I were on the highway or not. I could not see the center line which was gone completely and half the time I was driving I was just guessing hy the side of the road, a vague difference in color between the shoulder and the hardtop.

With the light snow of course falling into the headlights, sometimes that would even be obliterated. Now, Sir, that was a light snowfall. I am wondering - I have not been driving in the fog lately hut I am wondering, Sir, what kind of an ordeal it would he if there were heavy fog on the road as there usually is in certain portions of the Avalon Peninsula and some parts of the Trans-Canada Highway. Sir, J would like to as~ the minister one or two questions bearing in mind the fact that we had some fatalities and some accidents 5276

T.ane 1527 (afternoon) IB-lfl over the wce~end on the roads. I have no idea what was the cause of them or what hro11rht them about. There were one or two accidents I believe on the Trans Canada J!i,:!hway.

I do not know if they were in the daytime, nighttime or what, Sir, if they were in the nil!'ht­ time, I can see now from that short experience I had and I am sure other members - perhaps the member for Hermital!'e who drives back and forth quite frequently between Springdale 1>nc'I the member for Ronavista North who drives hack and forth • Usually when I am goinp to my district, I fly to Deer Lake and take a car frcm there so that I do not drive as much as I used to.

Sir, if anybody is clrivinp: on the Trans Canada HiP,hway in the nighttime and unless it is a clear, moonlit night and there is no precipitation whatsoever and no fol!', then that road has all the attrihutes of a disaster situation, Sir. I am surprised that there have not been more accidents on the Trans Canada Hil!'hway than there have been and of course it has been characterized by some people as almost a field of carnage. Sir, I would like to ask the minister one or two questions. How often are those center lines painted? It seems to me it has been a couple of years now since they were painted.

They were white and then they were painted yellow. I believe that was two years ago. I think every member in this committee who has driven on the Trans ranada Rir.hway particularly on the foggier portions of it, Sir, 5277

May 6, 1974 Tape no. 1528 Page l - MW will admit that the situation as it presently exists is totally inadequate for safe driving. As a matter of fact, Sir, to say it is unsafe is to use too mild an adjective when applied to the Trans Canada.

The Trans Canada Highway because of the present situation, Sir, I would say it is almst disastrous in its possible consequences to the drivers, the motorists of this province, particularly on the Avalon Peninsula where, of course, we have more fog than usual, Now on the road going down to the Burin Peninsula, it is a newer road and perhaps the lines have been painted on it more recently, It was not too bad, I must admit.

As long as the yellow line was there and visible, the fact that there was some fog or snow really did not make that much difference, Your lights were playing on it anyway and you could get an idea and keep a pretty good grip on what you were doing, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the way the Trans Canada Highway is now, Sir, with fog or light snow, you have a tendency to get mesmerized by it and you have no bearings whatsoever. I think the minister should explain to the committee what his department is going to do about it.

Are they going to paint these centre lines now as sqon as the weather becomes good enough to do it? Can I get some information from the minister as to how often these lines are painted? If they are painted every two years, Sir, then I would suggest, as a member of the House, trying to at least raise the standards of public safety in the province, that if they are done every two years that it should be changed to every single year, Otherwise, Sir, the Trans Canada Highway is going to become even more a scene of carnage than it has the reputation of being now. I would like to hear from the minister, HON. T.

HICKEY (Minister of Transportation and Communications): Mr. Chairman, the Trans Canada Highway is painted yearly,in answer to one of the questions raised by my honourable friend, We had some trouble with paint a couple of years ago, I believe that was when we switched from white to yellow. It is my understanding, according to my staff, that that 5278

May 6, 1974 Tape no. 1528 Page 2 certainly would not be attributed to the problem which the honourable member refers to. We are not quite sure really but we do acknowledge that this is a serious problem and we certainly acknowledge that we are aware of it, We are attempting to determine exactly what has caused it or if we can do anything to prevent the paint from disappearing as quickly as it does. One reason for the wearing out or disappearing of the paint is the use of studs in the snow tires by motorists. We are not in a position to say, Mr. Chairman, that this is the only cause.

I can tell the honourable member that it is a matter which is under discussion and under investigation. I can also tell him that, as in other years, the roads , the Trans Canada Highway especially, will be redone this year and that this work connnences as early as possible, weather permitting. MR. P. THOMS: Mr. Chainnan, to carry on from where I left off on Friday in trying to squeeze out some information from the minister, I was not very successful at that.I must say I was really disappointed. Mr.

Chairman, under the heading htghway construction, we were asking the minister for a list of the reconstruction and paving that his department is going to carry out during the coming season, also provisions. I believe, Mr. Chairman, the minister suspected that we wanted a list and the price. What we are asking for is just a list. We are not interested in the amount of dollars and cents at all.

I wonder if the minister could just give us a list as to whether or not a certain road is going to be reconstructed from point A to point B or is going to be paved from point A to point Bora certain bridge is going to be replaced during the coming season. We were not at all interested in the price. I do not believe that this is too much to ask. I think it is the duty of the minister to give this committee this information. Our people certainly expect this information and rightly and justly so they should have this information. Mr.

Chairman, I think the minister should submit a list of these projects to this committee so that we can pass along the information to the various districts, to our constituents,and let them r: ')-, 9 ::> '- l

May 6, 1974 Tape no, 1528 Page 3 Jtnow what is in the plans for this year because my people in particular are very, very concerned. We have had very little highway work in our district fOI." two years now, not that we got all that much before the present administration came into office but at least we did get some. We did get some provincial money into highways. Our people are rather disappointed with the performance of the present administration in providing an adequate highway system for the district.

I sincerely trust that the minister can respond to this small request and inform this committee as to what his department plans on doing during the coming season. Now, Mr. Chairman, another aspect, I would like to bring to the minister's attention is that two years ago the highways agreement, that is the Trans Canada Highways Agreement with the federal gov~rnment ran out and there were at least two sections of the Trans Canada Highway which were not upgraded, One of these sections,from Square Pond to the west boundary of the National Park,is mostly within my district.

As far as I understand, there have been no new agreements signed with the federal government. Now the minister or the admi~istration at least, have had over two years, not the minister because he has not been there for over two years yet but at least the administration have had over two years to make proposals to Ottawa and to discuss having an agreement signed so that these two sections of the Trans Canada Highway can be upgraded as the rest of the Trans Canada Highway is. Mr. Chairman, I might point out to the minister that the

section of the Trans Canada Highway in my district is the most deplorable

section in the whole of Newfoundland._Just west of the depot there in Grand Siding, we have a very bad condition where there are several bumps and they are just not bumps and dips. One dip there is about a foot deep. I asked the minister last spring,in this honourable House, if he would have this section, about 100 feet of ~2·0 ~ 0

Me.y 6. 1974 Tape no. 1528 Page 4 highway there, at least torn up and reconstructed and paved. However, nothing was done and this last month we have had the flashes up there, the little light there night and day. There have been numerous minor accidents in this same spot again this year. We had them last year and we had them again this year. I again ask the minister if he will undertake to have this 100 feet of highw~y on the Trans Canada torn up, replaced and paved so at least this

section of highway in the spring of the year will be at least up to a standard of a trunk road. It is certainly not up to the standard of the Trans Canada and it will not be until that '

section of the Trans Canada is reconstructed and paved again. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would also like to ask the minister about the Bonavista North highway, Highway 40, the

section from high Marsh in Trinity around the Loop to Gander Bay. The minister sat in his office with myself and a representation from the services conmittee of the area ~he week before last. We were rather disappointed with the response we received because we have no positive response. I would like to ask the minister if his department has anything in the wind to do any work in this

section of the trwik road this year? I 11111 sure the minister is already aware that there are ninety-four miles of road from High Marsh to Gander Bay. This is one of the two largest trunk roads in the province that is left unpaved and unreconstructed up to this present date, the other being the road on the Great Northern Peninsula. Certainly the people of my district and I am sure I speak for the people in the District of Fogo also, they are looking foward to some positive action on this road during the coming season. After all,we have been two years now waiting for some kind of a programme to be implemented.

The minister has had two years. I am sure that they have done a lot of planning. They set a lot of priorities. We are looking forward to finding out exactly what these plans and priorities for these two districts are as far as road construction is concerned in the coming season. 52G1

May 6;1 1974 Tape no. 1528 Page 5 In my district also, there is the road from Eastport out to St. Chad's and to Burnside. The road in Eastport is paved almost up to the boundary of my district. Rossie did that some years ago. AN HON. MEMBER: A good man. MR. THOMS: Yes, Ross is a good man. At least all the people on the Eastport Peninsula think he is a good man, according to the reception he has been getting lately Mr. Chairman, I would like to find out exactly if the minister is planning on reconstructing and paving that road this year or,if not, at least - reconstruction.

I went over that road just two weeks ago and it was practically impassable. I am sure the minister will admit that they had to take the chl.vert and place it right on the top of the road that was built some years ago in order to drain off the water to make it passable. The road down to St. Chad's at that time was completely washed out and it was impossible to get downin to the community. Now, Mr. Chairman,there have been petitions presented to this House,in June of 1972, to have this road recone~ructed and paved. There has been no response from the minister's office.

So far we cannot find out if the government at all plans on implement:!,ng any progr1111111es as far as construction and paving is concerned in this area. Now, Mr. Chairman, in May, 1972, when we were putting the estimates through this honourable cOlllllittee for the Minister of Highways at that time, the minister at that time asked each member if he, would wubmit to him a list of programmes that each member would like to see implemented in hie district. At that time, I believe the acting minister was the present member for the District of St. Barbe. At that time the Hon. Dr.

Farrell was, I believe, sick but I am not sure • .Anyway, Mr. Chairman, after that request I typed up a letter and I typed up a list of the priorities of the construction and paving programme 5262

May 6, 1974 Tape no. 1528 Page 6 that I thought should be implemented in my district. I have not yet received any response to my request. I am sure the letter and my submission is on file in the minister's office. If he cannot find it, I can certainly supply him with a list. I would like to run down the list for the minister now, The firet one, of course, was the causeway in Culls Harbour. This causeway at that time was in a deplorable condition and U ,e undercarriage was very weakened and eaten away by the water.

Thanis be to God! mother nature took over and took the rest of it out and away,down goes the causeway, That is why we have a Bailey bridge across the causeway in Culls Harbour. The government failed to respond to the r,quest of the people in the area, the Town Councils of Glovertown and Traytown and representations made by myself, They did, however, respond to the call of nature or to the work of nature. I am quite thankful for mother nature for at least getting through to the minister and getting some movement out of that department.

The second one was the Highway 40, from !rinity to Newtc,wn, The minister has at least two petitions in his department on file. I would like to know what the minister is going to offer us this year on this. I would emphasize to him again that the reconstruction and paving of Highway 40 is as far as I am concenied in Vf district, of the ut110st necessity. It has top priority and it should be at least one of the two priorities of the present provincial government,because it is the second longest highway in the district which is not paved at the present time.

The minister has admitted to me that it is, if not the first, the second in line for paving and reconstruction. I trust that his office will find the necessary funds to carry out a fair­ sized pro~ramme on this highway this coming season. The third one was the reconstruction and paving of the road from Eastport to Buron.de. This road, as I have already stated, is in a deplorable condition and it was never worst than it was last sUIIIIDer, 52G.3

May 6, 1974 Tape no, 1528 Page All the gravel has been graded out of it and in many cases we are down to rock bottom. There is no such thing as grading this road because there is nothing left to grade. 7 The fourth one I had on the list was the paving of Highway 40 from Traverse Brook to Trinity. This thank God! was paved last year with a most generous donation from DREE of $600,000, The minister's department allotted this so that it could be paved, This was 10.3 miles.

Also on my list I requested that a road to Shamblers Cove from Highway 40 be constructed for the benefit of the residents of Green's Pond and in time we would hope that a causeway would link the Island of Green's Pond with the mainland portion of our highway, Green's Pond is the second oldest community in Bonavista Bay. It has had a long, outstanding and very colourful history, It has made donations, economically and socially to the province. Its donations to this province have been outstanding. Its population at one time did go over 2,000. At the present time it has levelled off at approximately 500.

We have fifty-four fishermen there, Mr. Chairman. They are very hard-working and industrious people, They have withstood the temptation of resettlement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Bear! Hear! MR, THOMS: There is no w·ay that these people are going to resettle, They are putting up a strong fight, I certainly support them and I trust that the minister can do something within his department this year to help these people, to give them some encourageaent for the future and designates few dollars so that that road,out to Shamblers Cove at least, this year can be constructed, We are not asking for a real trunk road.

We are just asking for a byroad off a trunk road. We are not asking for pavement, at least this year, If we could only get the road constructed out to Shamblers Cove, this would 52G4

May 6, 1974 Tape no. 1528 Page 8 just give us a 2,000 foot trip on the ferry where at the present time they have to go from Valleyfield, which is a distance of six miles and at this time of the year, especially even today, this

section is blocked with ice and I doubt yery much if the ferry is in operation. It was not in operation yesterday. r doubt very much if it is in operation today. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that if we had this road out to Shamblers Cove, this would certainly solve a lot of the problems in the area for the residents of Green's Pond and certainly give them a new lease on life. How, Mr. Chairman, another island in my district is the Island of St. Brendan's. St. Brendan's is another island with a strong-willed people who have resisteq. the temptation of resettlement. They have hung .fast to their little island.

They have made a good living for themselves !llld there are about six miles of highway on the road - connecting Shalloway Cove, Shoal's Cove, Dog Cove Aylward I s Cove·. This is a very small an~ very narrow one-laned highway. The people are not asking for very much, Mr. Chairman. The highwa~ ­ has ·never been graded with a grader but graded with a D-4. It is a very, very strong 52G5

May 6, 1974 Tape 1529 (Afternoon) PK - l P.C. Community. Do not ask me that because it is embarrasAing but there are an awful lot of good people there , Mr. Chainnan. I wouio like to see the minister do something to help them out as far as the condition of their highway is concerned on the isl~nd . All they would like to see at the present time ls thmt the highway be properly constructed. The highway is just being bulldozed out of the bush th ,!·tc with - there has really been no engineering work done on the highwey.

There are all kinds of small dips and turns.and if t his highway were .1ust straightened out a little and pro-perly constr ucted the people of St. Brendan's I am sure would be forever grateful, The other piece of highway I have on my list is the piece of highway just one mile from the Trana Canada Highway to the Town of Bent~n. This Cull's Harbour Highway went in with the Causrway, Sir, and they also asked for a restructured highway and paving. But the little road from the Trans Canada Biahwav to Benton, ju• t one aile lcng,and it certainly would not take very IBIICh money to pave this little piece of highway.

I am quite sure with the new t0"1nsite going U'P in Benton, there· are roughly forty buidling lots being sold there right now. I understand thirty-three are sold and there are possibly a dozen or twenty hausea going up there this year. AN HON. MEMBER: How lon)!:? ~IR . THllMS: One mile. Just one mile. That is all they are asking for. It is just a flick of the pencil and it is done. I am sure the minister will take this into consideration and I trust that he can give these peo'!lle this pavement this year. AN HON. ~ER: Upgrading too. "R. THOMS: No just paving. The upgrading is done.

The good Liberal government before them did this. So if they would be kind enou~h to put a black surface on it, we would be indeed most grateful. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are others here that I have, for examnlP the highway to Newtown and Cape Freels. 1 am Foure they will be done once the main ~1ghway, Highway 40,ia done. This is the list, ~r. S~eaker 0 I submitted it to th~ ~inister of

May 6, 1974 Tape 1529 (Afternoon) PK - 2 Highways on June 29, 1972, at the minister's request or the Acting minister's request, who was the Member for St. Barbe South. And with the exception of the Causeway in Cull's Harbour and of couse the pavement last year, I have no response from the minister as to the other projects. So I would certainly like to hear the minister comment upon these areas and ask him if he could at all inform this honourable Committee whether or not he intends to respond to these request this year or not? Now, Mr.

Chairman, before I go on I also have a question to ask the minister. lt is a rather ticklist one, one that he has sputtered off about before and one that I sputteredoff about before and I am sure when he see this little red book he knows what is coming. Mr. Chairman, on New Year's Eve,because of a little commotion kicked up,by the Member for Trinity North I believe, as far as the highway einployess are concerned in the various depots in the Central Newfoundland Area:the employees were ordered out to work on New Year's Eve and New Year's nay.

I have been informed that they were told that they would not be paid time and a-half, they were to be paid straight time. Some of these employees, Mr. Chairman, when they heard that they were only going to be oaid straight time refused to go out to work, some of them absolutely refused and some of them did not go to work. Mr. Chairman, now while it started in the Clarenville depot, it also spread to the Gambo depot and the Lumsden depot. Some of the emnloyees were very concerned and very, well to say the least they were certainly put out at that time.

Of course they tried to get the minister and I suspect on New Year's Eve it was very hard to get anyone although someone said that - one of the employees said that he was speaking to the minister or to the minister's secretary and he got no response from the minister whatsoever. This, Mr. Chairman, to me is a very ~erious situation because I believe it goes against the agreement that the minister and the Minister of Finance last year signed with the people, the employees of that department.

I refer to Article (13) and Article (14) of the agreement that these two ministers signed at that time in which it specifically states that when personnel are called out on over-time that they shall be paid time and r::" - -, ,.;Lu f

May 6, 1974 Tape 1529 (Afternoon) PK - 3 a-half. Now, Mr. Chairman, some of the people,in three of the depots I believe,refused to go to work and some of them were suspended. None of them as far as I know were fired but they were suspended for, I am not sure how many days but I believe some of them were suspended for a period of seven days. I know some of them were for sure. I do not know if there were any other suspension,either less than seven days or over seven days because, Mr. Chairman, I have her.e in my hand a letter which was written from the District Director, Mr.

Langdon,and he informed one of the employees that he was suspended for seven days. Mr. Chairman, I would like for the minister to reply to that and ask him if this situation has been resolved and whether or not any of these employees,because of their refusal to work for straight time on New Year's Eve and New Year's Day, if any of them were in fact fired? Now, Mr. Chairman, before I sit down I just want to bring to this Committee's attention, Heading 1707, I trust that I can deal with it here or should I wait until 1707? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: Well okay, Mr.

Chairman, I will not deal with Heading 1707 but I would like to ask the minister - the name of his department is Transportation and Communications; Now, Mr. Chairman, I understand that Transportation makes up possibly ninety-nine per cent of his department. I am wondering, Mr. Chairman, why do we have the word "Connnunications added on to the word "Transportation?" I notice, Mr. Chairman, that in the estimates the total vote for Communications is $28,500. The total vote for Heading XVII - Transportation and Co!llllunications is $59 million.

So we have a very, very small portion, it is not evan a drop in the bucket, Mr. Chairman, $28,500. Now, Mr. Chairman, it is an interesting thing to note that under this heading, not under the heading but under Communications, we are going to spend $28,500 this year. I believe we are going to spend out of $28,500 we are going to spend $26,000 in salaries; we are going to spent, I believe $1,000 in travelling and for office rental I presume we are going to spend 5268

May 6, 1974 Tape 1529 (Afternoon) PK - 4 $500. Now, Mr. Chairman, this is going to amount to something like over $27,500. Yes, $27,500. Mr. Chairman, I would like to bring to your attention that there are only twelve members of us in this Committee at the present time. Could we, Mr. Chairman, have a quorum? MR. CHAIRMAN: Ring the bell! We have a quorum. MR. THOMS: I again would like to stress the point of Communications within the minister's department. We have. the minister spending a total of $28,500 for Communications. As far as I know this is all that we are spending on communications this year.

We are spending $26,000 on salaries, $1,000 for travelling and $500 for office space. Now, Mr. Chairman, here we have a total vote of $28,500 and on actual COIIDDUDicatione,radio conmunications, we are only spending $1,000. So in fact what we are doing, we are going out with a $1,000 bill in our hand and it is costing us $27,500 just to spend $1,000. MR. CHAIRMAN (STAGG): Order, please! The _honourable member while he prefaces his remarks by indicating that he knew that he was not to discuss Head 1707 has nevertheless proceed ,,.••· to do just that.

I suggest the honourable member's conments might well be reserved until we do eventually get to Head 1707. He is dealing with particular items rather than general. MR. THOMS: Yee, Mr. Chairman, I was dealing with Communications - Transportation an~ Communications - taking the Communications

section of it. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, just to briefly sum up and again make my humble request to the minister that he submit to this Committee a list of roads this year that he is planning on reconstructing, not with the prices attached. We are not at all interested in the dollars. Also submit a list of paving, we would like to know where - for miles, but not for dollars. Also a list of the bridges that he plans on replacing during the coming season. I would like to point out to him in particular .the bridge in Indian Bay,which at the present time is in a very serious condition because,as he is obviously aware, his department had to rush down there 5289

May 6, 1974 Tape 1529 (Afternoon) PK - 5 last Thursday and reinforce it because if they had not the whole bridgP. would have washed out. I am afraid if this bridge is not replaced this year, we will have another Cull's Harbour situation on our hands. So I trust, Mr. Chairman, that the minister will respond favourably to my humble request and that I will be able to leave this Committee and inform my good constituents that the minister is going to give us a little reconstruction this year, give us a little pavement and possibly replace a couple of bridges. MR. CHAIRMAN (STAGG): The Hon.

Minister of Transportation and Co11111unications. RON. T. P. HICKEY (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUNICATIONS): Mr. Chairman, they say,"The last shall be first and the first shall be last." Is that the way it goes? So I am speaking in terms of the question the honourable member raised. Let me very briefly deal with his comments on Communications. Before I do, Mr. Chairman, let me say that I will be very happy to provide some detail when we come to that heading.

Let me first of all say in relation to his comments that he is at loggerheads with his colleague the Member for Labrador North who apparently places great importance in the field of co111111unications and accuses the government of having done nothing oy way of research or representation or having accomplished nothing in that field. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that we in my department view the area of co111111unications as being a very important one.

This administration views it a very important field and one which lip-service was not even given to before, despite the fact that it is the life-blood of a great number of our people because of the sparse population and isolation throughout the province. To say, Mr. Chairman, that because there is a small amount of money in relation to the total vote for my department, to say that this is the degree of importance is not a valid statement because as the honourable gentleman undoubtedly knows the field of communications to a great extent is under the jurisdiction of the federal government, many areas of it.

It is a matter, Mr. Chairman which is presently and for the past year undergoing a thorough debate and discussion, as to the 52~0

Hay 6, 1974 Tape 1529 (Afternoon) .PK - 6 practical side or the rea~oning 1;,ehip.d the whole question of jurisdiction and why the fede:ral government should have the kind of contr.ols or should at least be exercizing the kind of controls that they are. very often at the expense of a great number of our people. So , M:r • Cha11:11'an, while the amount of 1110ney is small , it is a very important aspect of this department.

I am sure the honourable gentleman WQuld not disagree with some of his counterparts, members of Liberal Administrations in other provinces, who for quite some time have 1>laced great empha.,ia on cQIIIIIJUnications and in every instance,with the exception of those who have a department c011tPletely made up of c0111111Jnications, namely; the frovince o-f Quebec, Every other department a-ttaches ~ ' ) ,,,/ ., '-''-"'-

May 6, 1974 Tape No. 1530 NM - 1 communications either to the Department of Transport. as in thP case of British Columbia,or Department of Highways in other provinces. It was in keeping with the trend across Canada that this administration set up the Department of Transportation and Communications, replacing the old Department of Highways and brought into it several other areas of jurisdiction. So, Mr. Chairman, we should not play down the importance of the field of communications just because we are not spending a great deal of money.

We will be spending more as time goes on and as there is a need but at the present time it is a matter of discussions and meetings at tl1e ministerial level, federal provincial conferences and this kind of thing, to get a policy on communications off the ground, Really we are breaking new ground in this province in regards to communications because,as I said earlier, nothing had been done before. I will deal with the subject, Mr. Chairman, in a little more detail for the honourable member and some others who have raised questions in regards to it.

I think when I am finished they will agree that they would indeed not want to see this province abdicate its responsibility in the field of communications, especially when we are behind the rest of Canada under a number of headings in this very vital field. My honourable friend from Bonavista North referred to the Loop Road,at a meeting which he had with me, with a delegation from his district and he mentioned, Mr. Chairman, or he indicated on Friday, that I placed all the blame on, as he referred to it, Uncle Ottawa, that it was Uncle Ottawa's fault. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I am sure the honourable member would not want that statement to go uncorrected because that is not a valid statement. I did not at any time say that to his delegation ~or to him. I got into the discussion of DREE and Ottawa participation only when I was presented with a letter signed by a gentleman from Mr. Jamieson's office, a letter which I might say annoyed me very much because,as per usual, as in many other cases, people from DREE or people at the Ottawa level

"ay 6, 1974 Tape No. 1530 NM - 2 whoever they might be, find it very convenient to pass the buck, so to speak, by informing honourable ~entlemen of the opposite side that they have made available again to this province more than $10 million for road construction and that they do not see why this province cannot accede to their request to upgrade and pave a certain road, knowing full well, Mr.

Chairman, at the time that letter was written, knowing completely that this province does not, I repeat, does not call the shots, make the final decision as to what work is done, what DREE money is used for and on what project. I referred to the honourable gentle!DBn and his delgation a number of examples where this province might well want to do a certain project only to find that Ottawa would not agree or that Ottawa would have something else in mind. Now, Mr. Chairman, if that is not placing the situation correctly, I do not kaow what is.

I did not feel that the honourable gentleman and his delegation went away with the wronp: impression, I thought I had made our case very clear to them with regards to the federal government's control and participation indeed involvement in the decision-making process with regards to expenditure of those funds. It is most unfair, Mr. Chairman, for anyone to suggest that they have made a chunk-of money available to the pr~vince and we should therefore have no problem in getting our road upgraded and paved. This in fact in a nutshell was the contents of that letter. It goes completely against the real situation.

What is even more important, Mr. Chairman, or what puzzles me and what irritates me and my colleagues a little bit is that the people who write those letters have full knowledge of what the real situation is. Mr. Chairman, we are not prepared to accept all the blame. Tndeed we are prepared to accept very little of the blame when it comes to how and where DREF. money is spent. We do not say, Mr. Chairman, that we have no imput, I am not saying that. We do say however that for the most part we can recommend a programme comprised of fifty projects totallin?, five times the amount of money we are going to get. It is

'fay 6, 1974 Tape No. 1530 ITT1 - 3 all to little avail, if there are a number of areas in the province DREE wish to spend that money on during that year. It is like heating your head against a stone wall. Sure, •ir. Chalnnan, we sit <lo1m and discu,as, debate, ne11otiate, but where does it end. It ends finally, Mr. Chairman, in most instances with the Denartment of Regional and Economic Expansion doing what they want to do. It is very important, 'lr. Chairman, that the record of this honourable House be set strair,ht on that. I think it is a fair statement to make, Mr.

Chairman, that this orovince, this government would welcome, would b.e more than pleased if the Denartment of Regional and Economic Expansion were to say to us, ·,Here is your SlO million, let us know what your priorities are and p.o ahead and spend it." That would not be unusual, JI,. Chairman, it would not be settinr. a nrecedence if that were done. If that were the case, this administration woul<l not renege or would not ahdicate its responsibility of taking full responsibility as to how that money was spent.

But when we do not havP a say or when we have very little to say in comparison with the total situation then it is most unfair for anyone to b_lame us or lav the responsihility on our doorstep if a oarticnlar oroject be not clone. vr. Chairman, I am sure the honourable member realizes that or maybe first of all,let me acknowledge that he is perfectly correct. Of course it frees up provincial money jf in fact this province were poinp to spend an equal amount of money on those same projects that DREE indicates we should soend that money on. But that is not alwavs the case, }1r. Chairman.

I am not saying in any way that the same projects would always be done if the province had a free hand to spend that money so in that context we are not freein<> an enual a111ount of money provinci;,lly. It is a fair statement to say that 1 t helps p.reatly the overall provinc1.al picture in terms of total projects being enpaged in durinp that particular construction vear. 52~4

"ay 6, 1974 Ta-pe No. 15 30 NK - 4 nut. Mr. Chairman, I aJ!I sure the honourable p,entlernan realizes that for every million dollars that this administration can nut into highways that there are ten times the number of projects, maybe fifty times the number of projects, certainly more than ten times the number of projects that are required to be done and this administration is bein(!; pressured to do. So it comes back to the same old story, 't,fr. Chairman, just what do you do 7 How do you split up that money fairly and squarely? How do you do :! t, "r.

Chairman, takin(!; int·o account economics where you can, saving $100,000 when you can, and spending it, Mr. Chairman, where a reasonable unit.~rice will be reflected, depencing upon the availability of contractors and equipment? So there is a whole host of factors involved before a final decision is reached with regard to this kind of work. The honourable gentleman referred to poor road conditions. 't,fr. Chairman, I cannot find fault with that statement.

It is made by every other honourable r,entleman, althourh I have to say to him that road conditions in his area are not as bad as they are in other areas,and I refer to the Great Northern Peninsula. I think it is fair to say that there are more problems in that region of the province than any other with the exception maybe of Labrador South where th~re are only just a few miles of road in comparison with the total amount of mileage insofar as the Great Northern Peninsula is concerned. Of course those roads are not in topnotch condition. Mr. Chairman, they are not going to be.

They cannot be as long as our climate remains the way it is, as long as we are attempting to do the best we can to replace equipment and as long, Mr. Chairman, as we have unusual winters, as we have had thi's year. I can only repeat what I said before and I do not want to belabour the ooint because it has been covered adequately,in my mind, that this had been an unusual year. My department had done everything nossible by w~rking weekends and overtime• Our ~ost of maintenance this year has skyrocketed and no one knows where we are headed in terms of labour

May 6, 1974 Tape No. 1530 NM - 5 costs when the demands are continuin~ to increase by our people for better roads, better service, better conditions. So they might; Mr. Chairman, nobody finds fault with that. Mr. Chairman, the honourable gentleman from Bonavista North referred to a

section of the Trans Canada Hip,hway and he terms it the worst

section in the province and I think, I am not so sure that he is not right. I certainly would not quarrel with him saying that it is one of the worst if not the worst. I want to tell the honourable gentleman, Mr. Chairman, that we have replaced that

section of the Trans Canada Highway three times . It is next to impossible to correct the situation that has developed there and it is because of the way the road was built in the first place and the conditions under which it was built and it is a continuing problem. Mr. Chairman, it is certain to the degree that the honourable gentleman refers to, that something will have to be done. I assure him that this matter is already under consideration. It has been inspected on a number of occasions.

We are doiny. the same thing now as we djd other years, attempting to try and determine what we are going to do this year that might be a little different, with the hope that we do not have the same old problem next year or the year after. It is a continuing problem, We do not necessarily have the answer to it. We will do the best we can. Mr. Chairman, he referred to the Bonavista North Highway, I believe there is something like ninety miles or more. I can only tell the honourable gentleman that one has to consider that highway in relation to others.

Nobody doubts the need for road work, highway upgrading and paving but again I call to his attention that there are other areas in the province in just as bad a condition and worst which will have to receive the attention of this govermnent, at least on a share basis,and therefore it would be certainly wrong for me to indicate to the honourable gentleman in any way that that road or the problems of the people who live there are going to be solved in a given period of time. Again, the whole svstem of determining what can be done and what has to be done will have to apply to that road as well as the others, 52~6

'-lay 6, 1974 Tape No. 1530 NM - 6 He referred to the list of projects. ~r. Chairman, I am not going to delay the committee . I do not wish to delay unduly the conmittee and use the time unnecessarily which is available to all honourable gentlemen opposite and therefore I will just briefly say,in my view, honourable gentlemen may disagree with me but in my view my reasons are good and sound. I am convinced that I know what I am doing in refusing to table a list or indicate a list of projects on an individual basis during this present year. I have said, Mr.

Chairman, t~at I will not refuse, that I will be more than happy to discuss with honourable gentlemen opposite, the same as those on my own side, the various projects, whatever is to be done, whe~ the opportunity presents itself and when the time is right. I have no alternative, Mr. Chairman, but to stick to that position since I believe it is the rip,ht one, I believe for me to deviate from it would be very wrong. Finally, Mr. Chairman, the honourable gentleman referred to some alle~ed suspension, some people who were alleged to have been suspended for seven days. Mr.

Chairman, I want to say for the record of this committee that that statement is not true. There has been no one in relation to the problem as outlined by my honourable friend suspended for seven days. There were a number of persons . I am not sure of the number, suspended for two days. I want to correct too, Mr. Chairman, the statement made by the honourable member when he referred to those employees involved refusinp. to go to work because they were not going to be paid anything othei;- than straight time, not even time and a half. I want to say to the honourable member, ~Ir.

Chairman, that that statement is also untrue, that on public holidays, Christmas Eve was one which this administration designated as one, those same honourable gentlemen that the member referred to were paid double time. That New Year's Eve was a half day, that was considered on that basis, the same as a public holiday. The members of my staff who worked that half day were paid 52~7

1-!ay 6, 1974 Tape No. 1530 NM - 7 double time. I want tQ further correct a stat ement made by the honourable memher when he suggested that the refusal by those members of my staff to work was in keeping with the terms and conditions as outlined in the wage and working ap,reem<mt as siimed by my department, my own peopleand Treasury Board and NAPE. I want to say that the issue which broul';ht on the susp e."lsion was not at all in conflict with any conditio .ns as outlined in the wage and workin g agreement . I want to say, ~r.

Chairman, with regret,that only after the y.reatest consideration and deliberation did I approve a two day suspension for those people and I felt very, very badly doing it because one does not want to see anyone su·spended. However, Mr. Chairman, I have a great number of persons workin~ in this departme nt and a great number of persons that I am responsible for and I would ·

!-lay 6, 1974 Tape 1531 (afternoon) suggest they look to me for equal and fair treatment.

If I am going to let people off and let them call the shots as to when IB-1 they are going to work or the conditions under which they are going to work under, then, Mr. r.hairman, we might as well put t~e locks on the door · and tell each and every one of our steff, "Well, you know, you work when you feel like it and you name the conditions under which you want to work. ' For me to have turned my eye away from this situation and refused to suspend them when it was recommended to me, could only have been classed as a most irresponsible decision. Chaos would have developed, Mr. Chairman.

Never again could we really depend on any

section of my staff to come out and work except whenever they felt like it. The real issue the 'honourable member refers to here was not brought ahoQt as he indicated by the honourable member for Trinity North or anythinp. the honourable member said but was brought about by a situation wbich developed and which came to light in Trinity North. Indeed that situation, Mr. Chairman, was applicable in several parts of the province wher on Christmas Fve memhers of my staff got stuck on the same road that the travelling puhlic wer:e stuck on, stuc;k trying to· p:et to their equipment, 'Mr. Chairman. I was not even aware at the time. had not even come to grips with that particular

section of my department in terms of shifts and those conditions under which my staff report for work. I had not had the occasion to be a]l that familar with it. I never had the understanding, Mr. Chairman, that any member of staff who could be classified as an emergency employee or an essential employee would have to heat his way through a storm to get to a piece of snow removing eou\pment or a sand truck jndeed to make the highway safe for the travelling pi.thlic. It must p.o without saying, Mr. Chairman, that that jndeerl is a most unioue situation. What was I to rlo?

Was I to accede to the demands of a few and place in jeopardy the rest of my staff not to mention the general public who use our highways? When I became awarE', t'r. Chairman, of th,:, conditions under which my staff were re,>ortinp, for work on holidays or Sundays or what have you, I immediately made a change. 52~9

'lay (,, 1974 Tape 1531 IB-2 I have no rep.rets for making that change. Jt is still in effect and as far as I am concerned it will continue to he in effect. If some mcmhP.rs of my staff do not like thflt. Hr, Chairman, then a]l I can say to them is that I am sorry, that they should look for another p-rofession or another field to work in :If they art> not pre~arcd to come to grins and realize the kind of joh thev are in. thC' kind of tRslrs thev are expected to perform. A.r-, HOl.OURARLE }!El-'BF.F: Arc they not coverec1 hy an agreement? !<R. HICKrY: Yes, they arc, ~r. Chairman, covered hy an agreement.

There is nothing in the agreement which says or which indicates in any way or nothini;!' that can he misconstrued even to mean that those persons are not on the joh when they are required. This gets right down to the meat of the whole subject. They are not only on call, Mr. Chairman. right now they are on the premises. They are where the equipment is. This is the trouble. This is where the trouble arose. They were in the habit of going home and being on call.

On this particular occasion and I am sure on occasions before, that probably never reacted our attention, our people just did not get to the equipment in time. As a result, persons were stranded on the highway. It is fine, ~r. Chairman, for someone to shout in favor of those few persons who were suspended but those same people, !-'r. Chairman, would be the very first to shout if an ambulance coulc1 not get over that highway,if an expectant mother could not get to hospital, if someone with a h_eart attack could not get to hospital. Who would be blamed then? Not those employees, ~r. rhairman. I would be hlamed.

This administration would be hl amed. ~r. Chairman, I would not necessarily disagree with any member opposite who would have something to say about it if that kind of situation were allowed to develop. It can be very plainly seen that the decision I took to chan~e that policy was the proper one. Those persons are essential employees. They must not be home, miles away f-rom their equipment,waitin~ for a storm and then not ahle to get to their equipment. They must be on the job. Thev are heing paid. Why should they not be on the jnb? That is the whole 5300

}lay I\, 1974 Tape 1531 IB-3 crux of· the problem, ~r. Chairman. Those personF refused to work. They were tolrl they would get double time on a holiday or a half a holiday. They were well aware of the fact that they would get time and a half for overtime. It is just a red herring that has been dragged across this whole issue by those persons in an effort to get someone to support their cause. Well, ~r. Chairman, the issue is closed. It is not about to be reopened. Those gentlemen have been told by me in a letter. They have been told by me through other persons.

As far as this department is concerned, it has no intentions of reversing that dectsion. It has no intentions of brinp;ing back that old policy which cannot guarantee that my staff, the essential employees, wil] not be on the highway when they are required. That, Mr. Chairman, to me is the criterion that we have to use. That is the only yardstick hy which to measure the competency, the efficiency of this department as it applies to snow-clearing and ice control. As I said earlier, it was with regret that I approved the suspensicm of those persons for two days.

Any memorandum or any document from my department suggesting to anyone a seven day suspension, ~r. Chairman, I am unaware of. If the honourable gentleman · has something in his possession which suggests it, I can assure him that none of those persons were suspended for seven days, that thi:;, might well have been the immediate decision of the district director and I cannot really fi.nd fault with that because if he is not goinp; to maintain control of bis staff and if he does not have the confidence of ourselves at headquarters, then his job becomes all that more difficult. In short, }Ir.

Chairman, it becomes impossible. While no one was suspended f~r seven days, I can appreciate a district director issuing thi.s kind of memorandum telling an employee that unless he reported for ~•orl< he would be suspended for any 17.iven number of days. Mr, Chairman, I hope that clears un this issue because the honourable gentleman in question accused me through the news media of susoending those persons and f!ivinp: mv hlessing to their suspension long before, months before in fact 5301

Yay 6, 197l, Tape 1531 1B- 4 t1'C'V ~,e-rr finlllly susprnnerl for two days, That is fair, Mr, Chairman, He reacted wl-icn som<"' of mv employees probat,ly made renrf'sent;ition to him; except for me to say to him that what he should do in future is not necessariJy itccc-nt the ,,rord of those persons but checl< it out. I al'l sure he will find that he will get full co-operation from my staff in terms of makinp; this kind of information available. It is the only thing to do, '-'r. rhairman. We had no choice in the matter and as I said before, it was unfortunate that the whole situation developed. CAPT.

WINSOR: Mr. rhairman, while the minister is discussing the road commonly known as the Loop Road, has he given any thought if and when that road is upgraded and paved, to redirectine: that part of the highway which now runs through Carmanville, outside of the community? T think traffic is beginninp: to get so heavy now that it is very dangerous to have the highway pass throup:h any community. I wonder if the minister would tell us. I believe two or three years ago or three or four years ago tl:ere was a plan to redirect that road that leads throught Carmanville,on the inside of Carmanville.

In saying that, Mr, Chairman, I do not suggest to the minister that he abandon the idea or the plan to pave that road through Carmanville. I think most of it was under contract last year. There is another question I wculd like to direct tr the minister. There seems now to be another technique of paving. Heretofore b£'fore pavin,s took plaC'e most of the road or all of the road invo]ved would he upgraded before it was paved or before the black ton Pas laid. However, last yeRr there seemed to he a new technioue, that is ju.st going and spreadinJ? the Pavement over the road as is or as was.

Now, has the rni.nister any report on whether that type of pavin~ is standing up? I have reason to believe that it is not in the area of r.ander Bay. Some of that pavement which was just spread over the road as it was - it had not been reconstructed - is now breaking up. If on the other hand it has proven to be satisfactory, then of course it is only a waste of money to upgrade an awful lot of roads. Every rravel road in the province can be naved within 5302

l-'ay 6. 1974 Tape 1531 IB-5 a very short period of time, I do not know t.1hether it is standing uo or not or whether this kind of pavement or that kind of reconstruction is standin~ uo. I am sure the minister has a report.

If that techni~ue of laying the black top on the road is working, then I can see t.1here t.Tithin a year or two years there is a salvation for all the gravel roads. because what little was thrmm down or spread in Gander Bay was certainly a godsend to the neo~le living along that stretch of road where the gravel is so dense and so penetrating ir the homes,ruid in the peoples' lungs I suppose,in the hot and dry weather. So, those questions I would like to get the minister's opinion on because as I say, people are very nruch concerned and very ar,xious to km,,., whether this pavement will stand up.

The other matter is of course the Loop Road. As the member for Bonavista North outlined here, that affects the Fogo district very much. They are all anxious and very much concerned that there will be a beginning this year on both ends, working towards the center. Would the minister be able to tell us some.thin~ on that? ~•R. HICKEY: t-<r, Chaiman, I thank the honourable gentleman for raising the ~uestion of paving of a road as is. I had intended to cover it. If it be the wish of the committee, we can cover it in a little more detail when we come to some other heading.

Let me just say that it is true that we have been experimenting with certain roads, pavin~ as is or almost as is. "'r. rhaiman, the honourahle member when he referred to the cost is very much correct when he says that if this process can he developed or were found to he practical and sound, it is the salvation of a lot of our people,for a lot of roads which are unpaved as yet. Costs are l!iicalating at such a fantastic rate that it is just impossible, Mr.

Chairman, for this province,~>ith the revenue that it has and the financial connnitments that it has,to hrin!!' about the paving of r!)ads and the upgradin~ of roads as quickly as in fact they should 5303

~layf,,197l. Tape 1531 IB-6 he done, as quickly mayhc as it is completely essential that thev should he done, not nrr.essa.ri ly accedinp.; to somebody's request , not necessarily givin,:,: somehody what they want or p;ivinp; an area what they want but p;ettinp. a road done to keeo it passable.

Because as we havr heard and as I have indicated several times during discussion in the past couple of days, the nutrber of miles that are required to be done in this province and the condition of those miles of road are such that we are reaching a very difficult situation because the roads are old and they are worn down,in a lot of instances right to the foundation,and somethinp.; just has to be done. •1r.

Chairman, this administration almost immediately realized that we should do something or we should find a way to reduce the cost, to pave roads j f necessary which would last for a given number of years even if j t meant 1·hen we were probably in a little better position financially to go hack over them, to redo them, widen them or what have you. ~r. r.hairman, there are a number of things involved before one can pave that road. Assuming the foundation is bedrock or assnminp; that whatever weak spots or soft spots there may be that we replace them and do just that kind of upgrading only.

We have to take into account when we pave that road the level of the road. Is it too far below the terrain,which will create a real snow clearing problem? Has it got to be brought up so many feet in certain areas so as to ensure at least that we will have a fip.;h ting chance of keepinp; that road open in the winter? Is there proper c'litching rossi1'1e without major reconstruction,which will again assnre us at least that when we pavE' it we will not p.;et washouts, we will not get the roadbed weakened by excess drP.inaJ!e?

All of those things, }Ir. r.hairman, have to determine whether or not we can pave a road basi.cally as is. I think it is fair to say, Hr. Chairman. that we believe that we should pave roads basically as they are. I think our 5304

May 6, 1974 Tape 1531 rn-7 experience hAs told us that this can he done in certain areas. To what degree in terms of mileage is a question which we are attempting to find the answer to. It will take a little while to do the proper kind of investigation hefore we have that answer. It is also fair to say that we believe in

Hay 6, 1974 Tape no. 1532 Page 1 - MW what could be called I suppose a crash programme of providing as good a road as possible in terms of paving that road as is,wherever possible .. and of paving that road, Mr. Chairman, with the least expenditure by way of widening, the removal of hills and so on. I think if one were to travel abroad, they shall find that there are a lot of roads paved that have turns, bends, hills, valleys and whatnot. I think, Mr.

Chairman, if there is anything that we have to say to the taxpayers today Lt is that for their own benefit in terms of getting a decent road as well as for their benefit financially, we are going to have to settle for a little less standard than we have been in the habit of reaching. We all would like and we all .want a decent road and we all would want a road which when it was done, it was done. That theory, Mr. Chairman, has its merits and cannot be questioned nor cannot be thrown out purely on the basis that it does not make sense. The fact of life is that it does.

If we had the resources, that . is the way to do the job. Mr. Chairman, the fact of life is that we do not have the resources. Instead, we have a lot of people scattered throughout this province. We have close to sixty per cent of roads still unpaved. Something must be done, some means must be found to reduce the cost to a fair degree if we are ever going to provide a paved road for the majority of our communities, the majority of our people,within a reasonable length of time. Indeed, Mr. Chairman, it can be said that we should provide a paved road for all of our communities.

If we are going to do that, then we are going to have to settle for less than what we have been shooting for over the past number of years. Mr. Chairman, we are working towards that goal. Bit by bit, month by month, we are gathering information which will tell us, hopefully, in the not too distant future as to what course we should follow and to what degree of success we can expect in tersns of stretching our dollars, getting more miles of pavement on existing roads with relatively little expenditure by way of upgrading. 5306

May 6, 1974 Tape no. 1532 Page 2 Mr, Chairman, , there are a whole number of issues involved in it, It is not sort of black and white. I cannot say to the committee that this is the policy, It is the policy we want, it is the policy we recognize that is necessary if we are going to acknowledge the request of all of our people within a reasonable period of time. It is a policy, Mr. Chairman, which we are pursuing vigorously and hopefully will be able to decide at least to a ninety per cent degree to follow within the not too distant future. _MR, NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, one is not in style in this debate unless one says a few words on behalf of one's own district, I want to deal with transportation in a much broader sense, Sir, but before I swing into the question of transportation and communications in a broader sense, I would like to get in a plug or two for my district too, Sir, About two years ago, Mr. Chairman, the minister's predecessor - I think it was then the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, acting minister, no it was the President of the Council. About two years ago, Sir, the President of the Council waa also at that time Minister of Highways.

I am not sure whether a letter went out under the minister's own 1ignature or under the signature of one of his officials but I think it was the Minister of Highways who sent out a circular letter to all the members of the House of Assembly asking the members to submit proposals of the roads that they would give top priority to in their various districts. I remember writing the minister back, I do not know if all the ministers responded to the request or not.

That was not the first time that that kind of a request was made, Sir, because on two or three previous occasions under the - is that the minister who did it? AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

NEARl:: Well it was not the first time that that kind of a request was made because under the previous administration, at least on one occasion if not two occasions, a circular was sent around to the IIIE!mbers of the House of Assembly, as a matter of courtesy, I suppose, to find out what the members considered to be the priorities in their districts as far as road reconstruction, new roads snd road paving were concerned. 5307

May 6, 1974 Tape no. 1532 Page 3 Well, I was one of the members who replied to that circular letter. I pointed out to the Minister of Highways at the time that a paving programme had begun on Bell Island and it was by no means complete and that in order to complete the progrllllllle the Middleton AvenJe Road, which extends from Parsonsville down to the district vocational school at the West Mines, needed to be upgraded and paved. This is one of the busiest thorou~hfares on Rell Island. I would consider that to be a number one priority.

The other piece of road on Bell Island that needs to be upgraded and paved is a road called the East track. Now a few years ago there was an agreement made between the town coW1cil and the Department of Highways at the time whereby the Department of Highways - no, the town council agreed under this fifty/fifty cost­ sharing programme to pave a piece of highways road on No. 6 Ran~e on the Green and the department promised that at some point they would in turn pave the East Track for the town council. Well that agreement, Sir, was never carried out.

I doubt very much if the town coW1cil ever paid back anything of the fifty/fifty amount that they committed themselves to under this formula. I doubt if any of the DX>ney was ever paid back. I doubt if the council ever paid one cent towards the programme. Nevertheless , there was a commitment made on behalf of the department to upgrade and pave a road known as the East Track, which runs directly from the front of the island right into Bennett's Street, right into the town area. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the minister, when he is replying to some of the other questions that have been put to him, if he could tell me if there is going to be any road reconstruction or paving done on Bell Island in the current fiscal year? Mr. Chairman, like many other members who have spoken in this debate, I am of the opinion that there has been in the last couple of years a downgrading, a deterioration of all roads in this province, Sir, bar none, including the Trans Canada Highway. 53u8

MilY 6, 1974 Tape no. 1532 Page 4 AN HON • MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: The best piece of road we have in this province at the present time is the road to the Burin Peninsula which was completed a year ago by money sent down from Uncle Ottawa, from that great Liberal Administration in Ottawa. No thanks to the Member for Burin, the Minister of Justice, no thanks at all, Sir: Now they are down there and they want the Loop Road upgraded, and paved, and I do not blame them. They will probably get it done this year, too. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: to them. AN HON. MEMBER: MR, NEARY: MR. HICKMAN : to him. MR.

NEARY: (Inaudible). Tenders are called? Well, I will say, more power (Inaudible) • No, Sir, federal money, DREE money. Does the honourable gentleman wish me to read it out Yes, read it. out and let me hear it. It i~ a part of the DREE Progra1111e. MR. HICKMAN: Field tenders have been called for the reconstruction of approximately seven miles of highway from Fortune towards Lama.line. _MR. NEARY: Does it say that in the tender? No, they do not say where the money is coming from. I think the Minister of Transportation and Communications will tell us that there is DREE money there. MR. HICKMAN: Not a cent. MR.

NEARY: The Loop down on the Burin Peninsula, the road called the Loop Road. Is that DREE money? Is it? I am asking the minster. Is that money coming from Ottawa or is it provincial money? la it cost-shared? MR. HICKMAN: From Fortune . towards Lamaline. MR. NEARY: From Fortune towards Lamaline, the road called the Loop Road? 5Ju9

May 6, 1974 Tape no. 1532 Page 5 MR. HICKEY: No! MR. NEARY: It is not OREE money? Well the minister is getting the lion's share this year, I can see that. He must be the fair-haired boy in the cabinet. Mr. Chairman, what about the road to Grates Cove? ls there going to be any paving over there this year, the road going down to Grates Cove? MR. HICKEY: I do not know right off hand. MR. NEARY: The minister does not know right off hand. Well the Member for Bay de Verde has already told the people over there that the road is going to be paved this year. MR. HICKEY: But all - MR.

NEARY: Rumours now floating around over in that area indicate that it is not going to be paved. MR. HICKEY: All honourable gentlemen tell people that, They know they tell it at their own risk. MR. NEARY: They tell it at their peril. They are risking their lives. If it be not done, theyshall have to run for cover in the heat of the summer when the duet starts to fly up. AN HON . MEMBER: No, they are busy paving, MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I would like to ask the minister if the road to Grates Cove is going to be paved this year? What about the road to Point Leamington? Is that going to be done? MR. DOODY: Next year.

MR. NEARY: Next year? Where did that voice come from? Out in the corridors? The Minister of Industrial Development juet woke up, just came out of the common room. I just heard his voice from the corridor out there. The new Manuele Bridge I understand. is under construction. The work was called off for the winter months. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible), 53i0

May 6,1974 Tape no. 1532 Page 6 _MR. NEARY: I heard the minister's voice crying in the wilderness out there. How much paving is the honourable minister going to get up in his district this year,in Harbour Main? My cousins up in Harbour Main - FIR. DOODY: _MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). No, they are all Tories. They are all Tories, every one of them. God love them. Well I do not know if they are all Tories. I think they have seen the light. They have been converted. I think they have been converted in the last couple of years.

How DRJch paving is there going to be up in Harbour Main this year or is the Minister of Justice going to get it all down on the Burin Peninsula? MR • . DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, the minister tells me that there is no federal money. This is all provincial money that is going to be spent on the A Loop Road. But, Sir, with all due respect to DREE, with all due respect, I ~ave to say' this, (I consider myself to be a pretty fair-minded individual, pretty fair-minded) Sir, that DREE has been pretty kind Co the Burin Peninsula, pretty kind. The people of this provin.ce, Mr.

Chairman, the people of thia province are beginning to get wise to the kind of a game that is being played. They are getting wise, Sir. They want to know, the people down in my colleague's district, down on the Great Northern Peninsula, in St. Barbe North, want to know why there is no DREE money being spent down there. AN HON. MEMBER: Do not forget Bonavista North. MR. NEARY: No, down in St. Barbe South, none in St. Barbe North and none up around the Leader of the Opposition's district; all down towards the new National Park or on the Burin Peninsula. AN HON.

MEMBER: Jack Marshal .! and Don Jamieson are heart-to-heart.

May 6, 1974 Tape no. 1532 Page i MR. NEARY: Ah, they may be heart-to-heart, Sir, but the people are beginning to ask why they are not getting their fair share of the DREE money. Now, I realize, I am not politically naive, Mr. Chairman, not exactly politically naive but I think the time has come, Sir, to spread it around a little bit. Your Honour, I am sure, would like to have a few dollars of DREE money spent out on the Port au Port Peninsula, would he not? I was out there, I think last year,and drove down over the Port au Port road. They could use a little DREE money out there, could they not?

I am sure they could. They could use a little DREE money down on the Cape Shore, could they not? The Cape Shore Road, where my colleague from Placentia East nods his approval, one of the worst I would say without fear, Sir, apart from the road to Red Bay, from L'~se au Clair to Red Bay. Apart from that piece of road, I would say that the Cape Shore Road is the worst in this province. How much DREE money is going to be spent on that? MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: None? Are we going to spend it all on the Burin Peninsula? Look, Mr. Chairman, I hope they get every road •own there paved.

One will not be able to walk ®1111l\ there unless one is walking on six inches of pavement. The people of this province, Sir, are beginning to ask why they are not getting their share of DREE money. Now everybody is in agreement with it. Why are they not getting it? MR. THOMS: A weak provincial government, that is why, MR. DOODY: After the next federal election,when Jim McGrath gets the DREE money, we will see a shift in it then. MR. NEARY: Well Bell Island happens to be a part of Mr. McGrath's district. I hope we can get a bit of DREE money spent over there. Bu~, Sir, let us be fair about it.

Let us be politically fair about it as far as that is concerned. I am a good Liberal I think, as good a Liberal as one can have. I am a half decent Liberal. But, Sir, there are a lot of people asking a few questions as to why they

May 6, 1974 Tape no. 1532 Page 8 are not getting their fair share of the DREE money, why it is all concentrated in one area. I am not begrudging any part of Newfoundland DREE ·money to reconstruct or build or pave new roads •• MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: I am getting the people I am accusing mixed up? I am not accusing anybody. If the minister, Sir, responsible for DREE wants to - no, I do not think the minister responsible for DREE is going to run for the Leadership , He may. I do not know, he may. I heard in a recent poll that was done, Sir, I had a report I think on Saturday night, in Newfoundland - HR.

DOODY:" MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). The former Premier took everybody,seven to one I aa told. I do not know who did the poll. I hope it is not like the one that was in the "Hont~al Star" a couple of years ago. Could we have a little water here, Sir, or a little milk or something? Anyway, Sir, maybe Mr. Jamieson, I do not know, 11&ybe he is interested in the Leadership of the Liberal Party. I would say that he is a good man. He could probably sweep this province and probably have a land-slide victory for the Liberals.

I would like to see the money spread around a little more, Sir, this road money spread around a little more, the DB.EE money, spread around a little more,spread out. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, when I stand in this honourable committee I like to lay it on the line, tell it as it is. That is why we have this· love affair going between the two of us. Now, S-ir, we could use some of that money on the East Coast of Newfoundland.

Sir,· before I get away from my own district and get into the broader aspects of transportation in this province, I want to remind the Premier again of a commitment that he made in two

May 6, 1974 Tape no. 1532 Page 9 provincial elections to the people of Bell Island . I am quoting from a clipping, Sir, from the October 30 edition - October 30. When was that election? What date was that election in October? AN HON. MEMBER: October 28. MR. NEARY: No, it cannot be October 30, it must be October 3, 1971. If I can get the Premier's ear there for a minute, I would like to get his reaction to this becauae this is a clipping from the October edition of the "Evening Telegram", 1971, prior to the first provincial general election. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: October 20, 1971. Yes, that is right.

"The Tories promised free transpQrtation on ferries operating within the province:(Bell Island staff;) "All ferries operating within the province will offer free transportation if the Progresstve Conservative Party forms the government after October 28.. Party Leader, Frank Moores, announced here Tuesday night." AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Okay, I will read the whole thing, "Speaking to about 150 residents who attended a party rally in the C.L.B. Armoury, Mr. Moores said: 1 A P . C. Government would consider all provincial ferries to be extensions of the provincial highway system. ' " AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: That is right. The Premier said that back two years ago, October, 1971. What I want to find out is what the Premier has done about it since then'. MR. MOORES: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: What has Ottawa got to do with it? This is a commitment that the Premier made, This is an election promise that the Premier has not kept. What has Ottawa got to do with it? Perhaps if I sit down, the Premier will tell me what Ottawa has to do with it? 531.4

May 6, 1974 Tape no. 1532 Page 10 MR. MOORES: (Inaudible). MR. THOMS: This was a promise made. This was a promise that was never fulfilled. MR. NEARY: The Premier went on to say: "This would eliminate the situation which now exists ... ,, ~ ~ ~) j l. 0

May 6, 1974 Tape No. 1533 NM - 1 ~~NEARY:_ where Newfoundlanders who must use ferries pay more for their transportation than other Newfoundlanders." I agree with that statement. That is a factual statement which I agree with. "Mr. Moores was here in support of the party's candidate in the district, a thirty year old insurance underwriter, Bern Fitzpatrick,who will he taking on the incumbent Liberal Steve Neary in the election. Hr. Fitzpatrick said Premier Smallwood had promised earlier that the Rell Island ferry would be taken away from a man who lives in Toronto and be turned over to a local committee to run.

He said this promise was never kept and if he were elected he would press the j!:Overnment to carry on the nlan ." The poor fellow never got a chance. He went in the greenhouse business instead and became a - A::s HON • '-IE~!BER: A farmer. MR. NEARY: No, he went in the greenhouse business and became an agent for some sort of liquor or rum, I do not know what it is.'' Hr. Fitpatrtck also plerlj!:ed to seek to have Rell Island included in the Department of "!'leP;ional and Economic Expansion, DREE ," I agree with that too but that is being done, no thanks to ~-!r.

Fitzpatrick. '''fr. 'foores told the audience he was not aware he would be addressinJ? the meeting until five hours before it was held. Earlier Mr. Fitzpatrick had said he had not known there would be a meeting until 11:00 P.M." 'fonday, desperation move, get the Premier in, ·Neary is ahead. So he onlv found out about this five hours beforehand. "nr. Moores flew to ~t.

John's from Deer Lake Tuesday morninp. and spent most of the day in meetings with party organizers and in recording radio and television commercial material." ~ CllAIRM~B..:._ Order please! 1-/hile what the honourable member is dealing with is historical and very informative, I suggest that the matter :ts irrelevant to head 17rJl-Ol, however all honourable members wishinp: it to continue, the Chair is certainly entertained with the ide.a. HR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, the honourable Premier not only made this cotnmitment in the 1971 Provincial r.eneral Election but also. Sir. a~ain 5316

'fay 6, 1974 Tape No. 1533 HM - 2 repeated his co11D11ibnent, repeated his promise in 1972, only this time I do not think the honourable Premier went to Bell Island but Mr. Fitz~atrick who was again the incumbent bit the dirt for the second time - just repeated and repeats it here again now, Sir • . But, Mr. Chairman, the point that I am making is this, that we see no evidence whatsoever, no evidence whatsoever that the Premier and the government have done anything about this promise.

Now I lcnow that the Minister of Transportation and Conmunications at the present time is carrying on negotiations with Ottawa to improve the ferry service between Bell Island and Portugal Cove and to find a second ferry, either as a replacement for the John Guy or the Kipawo. These negotiations are currently going on, . Sir; and I am working very closely.incidentally,with the minister on these negotiations. But these negotiations, Sir are only designed to award somebody a ten year contract to operate the ferry service between Bell Island and Portugal Cove. I know, Mr.

Chairman, I know that the Government of Canada, the Water Transport Committee of the Canadian Transl)Ort C0111111ission, would be very happy to unload the ferry service on the p~ince. They would be very happy to be able to pass the _1urisdiction of that service back to the provincial government, where it belongs by the way. The only reason, Sir, the only reason that the Canadian Transport Conanission, The Water Transport Committee,ar~ going along with the jurisdiction of the Bell Island ferry service on the Tickle at the present time is because ~r. ~mallwood managed to pawn it off - AN HON. MEMBER: Mr.

Diefenbaker, was it not? MR. NEARY: No, Sir, Mr. Diefenbaker was not there at the time, Let me correct the honourable gentleman. I do lcnow a 1-ittle bit about the Bell Island ferry service. AN HON. ME!:fBER: I krtow he does. MR. Nf:ARY: I know a little bit about it. I do not know all about it but I know a little bit, probably that much. I have had eno~h to say about it in the la.et ten or fifteen years and I have bad enough to do with it when I was working and living on Bell Island. AN HON. MEMBER: The poor CN people, poor ~r. Smallwood. 5317

Tape No. 1533 NM - 3 MR~EARY : But anyway, Sir, Mr. Smallwood, the former Premier, managed to pawn it off on Ottawa, p~wn it off because Mr. Pickersgill was the Minister of Transport who was very sympathetic towards Newfoundland and very p.enerous I might say, a nice gentleman, Sir, I suppose one of the finest ministers that we every had in the Government of Canada, bar none. f_@'T. WINSOR: A great statesman. MR. NF~~RY: A fine distinquished Canadian and a great statesman and a great politician. AN HON. MEMBER: Represented Bonavista-Twillingate. MR. NF..ARY: But Mr.

Pickersgill, Sir, was the one that took over the jurisdiction of the Bell Island ferry service and ever since, when Mr. Pickersgill was there,it was fine. We could always 110 back hut once 'Ir. Pickersgill left, Sir, then we could no lon11er P,O to the well. We were dealing with a 1troup of people then who were hi11hly impersonal. Anytime we approached them on the Bell Island Portup:al Cove ferry service they turned up their nose at us and said, ·•well why does the province not do somethin!!;?

Why does the province not take it over?" But anyway the jurisdiction is there and now in the last couple of months we see a move on the part of the Department of Transport in Ottawa to try to pass the jurisdiction back to the province. The minister's involvement at the moment, my understandinp. and the minister can clarify this or correct me when he stands to speak again.

The minister's involvement at the moment, as well as my own, is to try to convince the Canadian Transport Commission that they should award a contract only to the company that has tendered a oroposal that is in the best interest of the people of Bell Island, a oroposal that will see no increase in rates on the Tickle, a proposal that will see no downgrading of the service, no reduction in the number of trips that are being operated at the present time, as a matter of fact if anythinp., Sir, an increase in the number of trips.

Now up to about a week ago, some of the civil servants in Ottawa who were negotiating with the minister were under the impression that 5318

May 6, 1974 Tape No. 1533 NM - 4 the province was going to take over the service, at least they were going to negotiate in good faith to take over the service and that the province would award the contract. Only last week, Sir, I was able to change the minds of some of these officials in Ottawa, that the province was not the slightest bit interested in taking over this service unless and until a satisfactory service was put there, a first class service was provided, adequate to take care of the real needs of the people of Bell Island.

I ·think the minister and I are on the same frequency as far as that ·situation is concerned. MR. HICKEY: R111.ht on. MR. NEARY: We are right dead on, Sir. No wonder we have got a love affair going and I am quite prepared, Sir, at any time to lay aside my nolitical differences in the interests of my constituents or in the interest of the people of this province. Jam quite prepared to do it anytime. Yes Sir, I am.

I did it and the minister was good enc.ugh to come to Bell Island with me,on my invitation, on behalf of my constituents to attend a public meeting, and the member for Green Bay came over, representing the Premier. I can tell the House right now, Sir, that both gentlemen equipped themselves extremely well at that public meeting. ~. DOODY: The Minister of Rural I>evelopment. MR. NEARY: No. The Minister of Rural Development came on a previous occasion. · MR. DOODY: Before you assassinated him. MR. NE~ No, Sir, I did not assassinate him.

I have a job to do in this House and I think I gave the minister praise and complimented him for his co-operation on behalf of the - Mr. Chairman, I hope nobody is under aay illusions that if I have some criticism co level at my new-born friend over there that I will not do it, because before I am finished talt.ing about transportation I might have to take a few flicks at him. That is a part of the game