Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 66A (32nd Legislature, 4th Session)

32-4-66a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 10 June, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. A. ANSTETT introduced, by leave, on behalf of the Min ister of Health, Bill No. 54,

An Act to amend The Health Services Insurance Act (2). INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 24 students of Grades 5 to 12 standing from the New Hope Christian School under the direction of Mr. Peters . This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for La Vere ndrye. There are 35 students of Grades 4 to 8 standing from the Poplarfield Elementary School under the direction of Mrs. Chu dy. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minis ter of Agriculture.

There are 23 students of Grade 6 standing from the Montrose School under the direction of Mrs. Hanna. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Crop reseeding due to windstorm MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. My question is for the Premier and it follows upon reports of the damage that occurred in the windstorm on Saturday to various parts of the province, and particularly losses that could result in rural Manitoba.

My question to the Premier is: in view of the fact that crop insurance regulations, where some varieties dictate that if the crops are not reseeded by today, that they will not be covered, I wonder if the Premier could indicate whether or not his government's prepared to intercede to give a few days grace so that people can accomplish the reseed ing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: That question, of course, should be di rected to the Minister of Agriculture. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to advise the Leader of the Opposition that I have asked crop insurance officials to contact Ottawa to see whether or not a 24-hour to 72-hour extension can in fact be approved. The honourable member should be aware that part of the program does allow farmers to receive the 25 percent reseed ing benefit as well as 50 percent of an actual claim.

Going on the experience of 1980, during our severe drought year, I am advised by crop insurance officials that strips which farmers are being asked to leave, a 12 foot strip for every 40 acres, those strips that were left ind icated to crop insurance that although on the surface damage appeared to be severe, the damage nevertheless during the 1980 drought and the like, previous experience has shown that damage initially appears far worse than actually is the case.

Although farmers are being asked to make their decisions and do their reseed ing, leaving a strip, nevertheless, we have asked Ottawa to consider anywhere from a 24-hour to 72-hour extension. There is also the possibi lity for farmers, Sir, to seed other varieties of the same crop which does allow them an additional 10 days in terms of seeding time. Those kinds of decisions can be made, but we have asked for that consideration and we hope to have some advice later today on that matter. Cellulose insulation - approval of MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Minister of Housing, and it follows upon correspondence from suppliers of cellulose insulation who have appealed to the housing corporation to have cellulose insulation approved for installation in Manitoba under programs covered by government loans and grants. lt is my understanding that the cellulose is approved both by CMHC and other provinces. I wonder if the Minister intends to act upon that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that matter is currently under review. MR. G.

FILMON: I wonder if the Minister could indicate approximately when he expects to be able to give some response on that matter, this being construction season and a time when a good deal of cellulose insulation could be installed. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I am not able to provide a definite time commitment at this time; however, the review is taking place and a decision will be made as soon as possible. Crop reseeding due to windstorm MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I address my question to the Minis ter of Agriculture. it follows along the question asked by my leader. 2757

Monday, 10 June, 1915 Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister, in view of the fact that showers are forecast today and tomorrow, and in view of the fact that equipment and seed is in place and farmers are wanting to know what crop insurance is going to do- all they are waiting for is an adjustment to take place and they can reseed - will the Minister indicate and tell us whether there is some contingency plan in place to allow some other people to adjust, or is he just going to wait for Ottawa over 72 hours? Certainly he has to have a more definitive answer than he has given us thus far. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I thought, in my reply to the Leader of the Opposition, I indicated to him that farmers are being advised that they can, in fact, reseed immediately, that they should be leaving a 12 foot strip for every 40 acres and go ahead and reseed. The benefits will be paid, once the adjustment is made, on the basis of that strip. I caution, and I raise that caution, in that previous experiences of the corporation have shown that losses were not quite as severe as originally were thought to be .

But the corporation has given farmers that assurance that they can in fact reseed. We are trying to have adjusters be in the field as quickly as possible, they are in the field now, but with the number of calls and the like, there is no doubt that claims are backed up. But, Sir, that advice is being given to all farmers who wish to reseed immediately. MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I asked the Minister if any consideration is being given to relaxing the regulations so as to allow other individuals, other than crop insurance adjusters, to verify loss, particularly in those cases where entire and complete fields have been wiped away because of the heavy winds. Would some consideration be given to allow other people to verify crop losses? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I want to advise the honourable member that some adjustments have been made and in terms of some of the assessment that the leaf area of the crop, while it has been damaged, nevertheless the basic root network and the growing portion, the basic body of the crop is still intact. To suggest that we should now get everyone adjusting crops, Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure that would be advisable to either the farmer and/or the corporation.

But the practice of allowing a strip to be left certainly would indicate the nature of the crop that was there and would provide ample opportunity for an assessment and an adjustment to be made in the next two or three days. Hydro - 5 percent rate increase MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro. Mr. Speaker, last Thursday at the Standing Committee of Public Utilities the executive officer, Mr.

Arnason of Manitoba Hydro indicated quite clearly to committee that Manitoba Hydro would require a 5 percent annual rate increase to consumers well into the year 1994 to do two things: to re-establish the reserve fund at a satisfactory level as indicated by spokespersons for Manitoba Hydro; and to further quote Mr. Arnason, "that these increases would be necessary to cushion" what Mr. Arnason described as "a potential rate shock that could result from the transferring of construction costs of the Limestone Generating Station to the rate base." Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister of Energy is, that over the weekend this Minister and his Premier have indicated that these rate increases will not in fact happen and my question simply is, Mr. Speaker, whom are we to believe? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member is probably aware that he should not be asking questions on a topic which is before a committee which has not yet reported to the House . Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question to seek information on a matter which is not before that particular committee? MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, just on the point of order, I believe that what we are trying to do is make sure that, particularly in front of that committee that regrettably has a history of not always having the best of information put before that committee by very responsible people, namely, executive officers of Hydro who have subsequently had to resign. MR. SPEAKER: What is the point of order? MR. H. ENNS: Yes, there is a point of order.

I think it is extremely important that the members of this Chamber and, more particularly , that the members of the committee, the Public Utilities Standing Committee of this House, have some indication as to whether or not the information that we are being made aware of, who is speaking for what. My direct question, then, Mr. Speaker, to try to follow your admonition, to the Minister of Energy: will Manitoba Hydro be allowed to increase its rates 5 percent annually to the year 1994 as indicated by their executive officer? MR. SPEAKER: One moment, please. The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W.

PARASIUK: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, the president of Manitoba Hydro provided information to me some time ago indicating that the projections indicate that with annual rate increases at or below projected long-term rates of inflation, that would be sufficient to provide Hydro with positive net revenue. That means that the real price of electricity In Manitoba will further decrease in the future and help Manitobans have the lowest electricity rate structure in Canada and the United States.

So, assuming a 7 percent inflation rate - he was saying that the hydro rates would be 5 percent, 2 points less than inflation - assuming a lesser inflation rate, then hydro rates would be below 5 percent. That's what was clearly said. What Hydro is doing in a responsible way is showing that in the future 2758

Monday, 10 June, 1985 hydro rates will increase, Mr. Speaker, by less than the Member for Lakeside's salary will increase, which means that in the next 10 years he will have more purchasing power to buy more electricity for his dollar than he would have today. We are virtually the only utility in North America that can make that claim while bringing on new construction facilities, Mr. Speaker, so that we will not only be able to maintain that position through the 1990s but well into the 21st century. MR. H. ENNS: The committee was told, Mr.

Speaker, that whatever the increase, the executive officer of Manitoba Hydro says it has to be 5 percent to the year 1994 for Hydro's purposes. My understanding of the statements made by both the Premier and the Minis ter of Energy over the weekend is that they will have monies, hydro revenues, to divert into their so-called Heritage Fund. But, Mr. Speaker, you can't put the same 5 percent or the same money into two different places. That's my question, Mr. Speaker. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, we have indicated that money will flow from Hydro profits into a Heritage Fund in 1993. We have ind icated, Mr.

Speaker, that rates will increase to build up the reserves for drought and also to be used in a way that could cushion any type of unforeseen circumstance, as well as any type of new generating station at a rate that is less than inflation. So I ask the Con servatives whether in fact they are against that policy, because we can keep hydro rate increases below the rate of inflation, less than the rate that bread goes up, less than the rate that gasoline goes up, less than the rates of other consumer goods, Mr. Speaker. We think that's the proper policy. Are they agreeing with that policy or not? MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans will remember when inflation was in double digits, at 9 and 10 percent. They had no rate increases for a period of four years when the last Conservative administration was in office. My question to the Minis ter is: can Manitobans expect a 5 percent increase minimal of the hydro rates to the year 1994? HON. W PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, we have never said anything of the sort. What we have is that, if inflation is 7 percent we would be under it, and that projection was at a 5 percent basis. If inflation is 6 percent or 5 percent, the rate of increase would be looked at every year and, Mr.

Speaker, it could quite easily be below 5 percent. We have said that. lt will be related to inflation and it is our long-term intention to keep it below the rate of inflation. And I'm surprised that the Conservatives somehow want us to raise it higher than the rate of inflation. We, on this side, don't want to do that, Mr. Speaker, we will keep the rate increases below the rate of inflation while prudently managing the corporation so that we don't put artificial rate freezes on that force Hydro to suffer losses. That is imprudent, that's the wrong way of running a busine ss. Sawatsky, Gary - parole conditions MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General with respect to Mr. Gary Sawatsky who was charged with murder on the Ma y long weekend. My question does not concern the merits of that case, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Sawatsky was placed on, as a condition of his parole in August of 1984, was ordered not to associate with members of the Los Bravos organization. Would the Attorney-General investigate this matter and inform the Hous e as to why the police departmen t's recommendations, and suggestions that Mr.

Sawatsky was indeed associating with members of the Los Bravos organization, why those recommendations to the parole authorities were not followed through with, and Mr. Sawatsky's parole was not withdrawn or suspended, prior to to the May long weekend? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I am astonished at the question. The member knows full well that parole is a federal matter run by the federal authorities; it is not run by the Government of Manitoba, and is not run by myself.

If he has a question, first of all, whether or not that was placed as a parole condition; if it was placed as a parole condition, then the question is appropriately directed to the Winnipeg Police, why didn't they enforce it? If it wasn't placed as a parole condition, although recommended, then that question should be referred to the federal authorities. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the Attorney-General is responsible for the adminis tration of justice in this province.

I asked him if he would consult with the City of Winnip eg Police Department in order to determine why their suggestions or recommendations to the parole authorities were not followed through. HON. R. PENNER: Well, I take it that the member is providing information to the House, namely, that a recommendation by the police to the Parole Board was not followed by the Parole Board. If that is the case, then I have no hesitation ih inquiring from the authorities responsible, the Minister responsible federally for the Parole Board, the Solicitor-General, why that was so.

I have to deal obviously on a Minis ter-to-Min ister basis, and would have no hesitation In doing that. I just want to be sure of the facts. If the member has facts of the kind that he's now advising the House, if he'll simply provide me with those facts I'll be more than happy to follow it up with an inqu iry to the Solicitor-General. Shorting, Clarence - mandatory parole MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the Minister of Community Services and Corrections.

The Attorney-General has indicated in the past that he has made no recommendations to the Federal Government with respect to mandatory release and the Min ister of Community Services and Corrections has said that this is a matter for debate. Mr. Speaker, I would ask her if she would review the record of one 2759

Mond•J, 10 June, 1186 Mr. Clarence Shorting who was released on mandatory supervision while serving a sentence for robbery with violence- was released in 1981 - charged and convicted of rape and sentenced to four years and, while imprisoned, was released again in 1985 on mandatory supervision, and has just been charged last week with a case of sexual assault, break and enter with intent. Would she investigate that case and advise the House whether or not she will change her position with respect to mandatory supervision and mandatory release? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General on a point of order. HON.

A. PENNER: First of all, this is entirely a federal matter; but secondly, to my point of order, I have said publicly - and I don't want my position misrepresented even inadvertently and I am prepared to assume that it's inadvertently that I am opposed to mandatory release - I think that the parole mechanism works best on a case-by-case basis. So I don't want the impression left that somehow you have in this government, because it's not within the purview of this government, but in this Attorney-General, a supporter of the mandatory parole which had broken down and we know that it has broken down. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I placed a question to the Minister of Community Services and Corrections. I wonder if she would answer it. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I am having some doubts about whether the subject matter of the last few questions are within the administrative competence of a Provincial Government. However, if the Minister wishes to answer, she may do so. St. Pierre School parents - meeting with Minister MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the First Minister. A group of St.

Pierre parents met with the Premier in Vita on Friday and indicated, or served notice, that they planned to meet with the Minister of Education on Tuesday coming at 7:00 p.m. in the evening. The Minister of Education has refused to meet with this parent group. Is the Premier going to instruct his Minister of Education to meet with the parent group from St. Pierre tomorrow night? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the matter in question is one that will be dealt with. As to the Minister and the group in question from St.

Pierre, the matter is a matter pertaining to, according to my understanding, a school division matter, the Red River School Division, and unless it is shown to be a matter involving provincial jurisdiction, I don't know why the Minister would be meeting with the group involved. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well, to the First Minister then. Is he indicating that the Minister of Education will not be meeting with this group tomorrow when they come into the House at 7 o'clock? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I heard about the meeting that I was having with the parents in the newspaper. When people want to meet with somebody, they don't inform a third party of a time and a date that they are coming for a meeting without knowing that the person that they want to meet is going to be there and is available. As it happens, I will not be available at the time they have chosen at 7 o'clock tomorrow night. However, I am prepared to meet with the parent groups, and I will be communicating this to them.

I think part of my concern has been that there are two parent groups on this side of the issue, as we all know, not just one parent group, and that it would be very difficult for me to appear to be meeting with a group on one side of an issue, a group of parents, without being prepared to meet with the group on the other side of the issue, the other set of parents. So as long as everybody understands that if I meet with parents, I will meet with all parents, and will meet with parents on both sides of the issue.

I am prepared to set up a meeting with them at a time that is mutually acceptable to both of us, and I will be communicating that to them. MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the Minister of Education then, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister indicate whether the parent group that is supporting the 50-50 language program in St. Pierre have asked officially for a meeting with the Minister of Education? HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, they have not, Mr.

Speaker, but that doesn't take away the concern that I have, that in a very sensitive issue like this that is by law in the hands of the school division to decide when there is a fair amount of controversy and concern in the community and there are groups of parents on both sides of the issue, whether or not both sides request a meeting with me, I believe it is inappropriate for me to have a meeting with just one group of parents on one side of the issue.

So I will be communicating to them that I am prepared to meet, providing everybody understands that the offer will be made to both groups of parents on both sides of the issue. St. Pierre teachers - assistance to MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. A. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education concerning the three teachers at St. Pierre who are being transferred because they signed a petition along with some 450 other parents. Can the Minister provide any assistance or protection for these three teachers? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. 2760

Monday. 10 June, 1115 HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot . Although there are protections in place for people who believe they have been aggrieved or have not been handled in a fair and judicial way. They have a number of avenues that they can follow and, obviously, they should and probably are having discussions with the Manitoba Teachers' Society who advises, informs and supports in areas like this. They have rights to arbitration hearings and to the courts if they feel they have not been fairly handled.

They do not have redress and I do not have authority to deal with issues of hiring or firing of teachers in school divisions. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to ask the Minister whether she can provide any assurances or guarantees of freedom of speech or freedom of expression to teachers In the classroom or in their capacity as citizens after hours. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the points that the member is raising, and that is that people should have a right to speak out, should have a right to say what they believe and should have a right to freedom of speech as something that we all agree with. I suppose that he is trying to relate the two, the earlier question with the transfer and the suggestion that this is being done because people have spoken and the action is taking place because of that.

If that were the case that would not be determined by me; I am not a judge. lt would not be determined by the Legislature or the Department of Education; it would be determined by either an arbitration process or the courts. Violence in schools - concern with MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I address my question to the Minister of Education. The headline today says, "Drugs, violence at school alarm mother." The Winnipeg School Division vice-chairman - I believe it's Vince Bueti - indicated that an increase in violence at division schools has been noted by the board.

Can the Minister indicate whether the Department of Education has been apprised of this situation, and can she further indicate whether or not this is a growing trend in other school divisions throughout the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, we were not apprised of the specific numbers. I know that the school division does ask for reports every two or three months and this information comes into them. I think the remark was made in the media that there has been some increase. I do not know how serious it is or how big a problem it Is.

I expect that if it would seem to be either a growing trend or a serious problem that we would have heard about lt. We have had no formal communication with the school division prior to this, although we made contact ourselves this morning, and we are informed that their knowledge to date was that they were not aware of a specific problem that was outlined in that particular school, and they were following it up and indicated they would report to me. So if I get additional information about either that particular school situation or the situation in general, I will report to the member. MR. C.

MANNESS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The same individual, the vice-chairman of the board, indicated that the need for suspensions appears to be increasing mostly for violent behaviour. What Is meant by violent behaviour and, again, to what degree Is it increasing within the public school system? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Those are exactly the questions that, clearly, I need direct and specific Information for before I can make an Intelligent answer. lt's that kind of detail that I don't have, that I haven't been given, and that I require before I can answer the question properly.

Toronto-Dominion Bank - expropriation of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Urban Affairs and ask him that, since some weeks ago I wrote him a letter asking him about the Toronto-Domlnlon Bank branch office at Portage and Kennedy, whether it had to be expropriated by the North of Portage Development Corporation, and since I've received a letter back from lzzy Coop, the president, saying that the building would be demolished and that it could not fit Into the plans of the North of Portage people, Is the Minister and his department satisfied that all avenues were Investigated as to see whether this building could be saved? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. L. DESJ ARDINS: Mr. Speaker, we are satisfied. They have to proceed fairly soon, they have to proceed on on time. lt certainly wouldn't be fair to the others. The bank had been advised, so they must start as soon as possible. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder If the Minister could find out for the Members of the Legislature what the cost of expropriation and demolition of such a building Is to the taxpayers of Manitoba. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I suppose I could, then I might as well get the full Information, the demolition and expropriation of all the projects known as North of Portage project. Careerstart Program - process of appeal MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Employment Services. 2761

Monday, 10 June, 1815 Some time ago, I asked the Minister how long it took to process an appeal under the Careerstart Program and the Minister undertook to get that information for me. I don't believe he has answered that yet; does he have that information now? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I had thought the honourable member would be in the Estimates process which has been going on for several days where we had discussed Careerstart and other programs at some length. However, I can advise him that the appeal process takes between one day and one week.

COMMITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Before we proceed with Orders of the Day, I would like to advise the House that we would like to make a minor change In the committee scheduling for this week.

We had scheduled Public Utilities for tomorrow morning at 10 :00 a.m. and Thursday at 10:00 a.m. to accommodate the requirement for clause-by-clause consideration of Bill 2, Sir, sponsored by the Minister of Health, which is now at clause-b y-clause stage In Law Amendments, suggest that we will move Public Utilities Committee, scheduled for tomorrow, to Thursday, only, and then next Tuesday or Thursday, if required, and hold the Law Amendment Committee meeting tomorrow at 10 .00 a.m. So Public Utilities is delayed till Thursday, Law Amendments tomorrow at 10:00 a.m., Sir.

Sir, would you call Bill 4 for second reading? INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to calling the bill, I wonder if I might direct the attention of members to the gallery where we have 10 students of Grade 7 standing from the Aberdeen School under the direction of Mr. Billows. The school Is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Burrows. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORDERS OF THE DAY SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 4 - THE MUNICIPAL ACT HON. A. ANSTETT presented, by leave, Bill No. 4,

An Act to amend The Municipal Act, for second reading. (Recommended by Her Honour the Lieutenan t Governor) MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This bill to amend The Municipal Act is essentially an administrative and technical bill with only a few clauses that address changes In principle and those are, In a very complex comprehensive statute, minor changes as well.

I will be distributing, and the Clerk has for distribution, copies of detailed explanatory notes setting out the present section, the proposed change with the reason for the change. Those notes only run four pages, Sir, and will assist members In discussion at committee stage. Sir, for example, the minor and technical changes reflect reorganizatlonal changes within the department, the Municipal Budget and Finance Branch Is now referred to as the Municipal Advisory and Financial Services. That change takes place throughout the act.

References to the Manitoba Water Supply Board, which disappeared many years ago, are now being brought up-to-date in accordance with the new name, the Manitoba Water Services Board. I won't refer to those changes In every

section in which they take place, but that updating has been done in places where it is appropriate. Sir, last year, we made a change, of necessity, because of the complex and detailed nature of the bill, Sir, running many sections and a full volume In our Statute. To assist members, I would ask leave to make reference to specific sections to assist members at this stage. We made reference, Sir, last year, to the provisions in the act which deal with unorganized territory, and we need to include . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Does the honourable Minister have leave to make those specific references?

Leave has been given. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for St. Norbert has reservations. I will try and do it without specific reference to the sections then. Sir, there is a

section then in which the "letters patent" reference is being extended to include unorganized territory. No additional powers are contained in the amendment, it's purely a matter of clarification. There is also an amendment to another

section in the act, Sir, which provides that ward boundaries, which are to be changed, must be changed prior to the year of the election. There is a somewhat more substantive change, Sir, in a

section which deals with the powers of municipalities insuring their councillors and employees from liability. The current act provides that a municipality can purchase comprehensive insurance, but it did not provide for exemption from personal liability for members of council; nor did the

section specifically authorize the purchase of insurance coverage to contend with the payment of legal expenses, Sir. The additional clauses to the original

section which deals with this matter will clarify those concerns which have been raised by both municipal associations, the Union and the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities. As well, the question of the payment of legal expenses is clarified in a new provision to these sections of the act, so that municipalities will have authority to provide for liability insurance for members of council. Members of this Legislature, I'm sure, have been aware over the 2762

Monday, 10 June, 1985 last numb er of years, in the late '70s and throughout the' 80s, that there have been increasing cases involving mun icipalities and litigation with ratepayers or outside agencies. The act did not specify what the position of an individual, either an employee or a member of council, was when the matter went before the courts. This makes it very clear that their liability accrues to them because of their role as a muni cipal councillor or an employee and is not attached to them personally, Sir.

This is in accordance, Sir, with requests we've had, as I mentioned earlier, from the associations and municipalities at large. Another area in which municipalities have expressed concern, Sir, has been the whole area of procedural by-laws at the municipal leveL One of the things which has occurred in many instances is that ratepayers and others attending at council meetings have been unclear on the procedures in effect. In the past, there have been sample procedural by-laws provided to councils, and councils have chosen whether or not they would enact a procedural by-law. This minor change in this

section will require municipal councils to pass procedural by-laws. The department will modernize, brush up, make more current the sample procedural by-law which we supply to municipalities on request and the change in the act does not specify that the procedural by-law sample supplied by the department must be the one that's enacted. But for the benefit of members of council and for the benefit, more particularly, of the public and their municipali ty, each council will be required to have a procedural by law.

The act will provide that the time and place of holding of meetings and the calling of special or general meetings would have to be clearly set out in the by laws. Most municipalities have these kinds of items clearly set out in procedural by-laws now, although some have either neglected or refused to establish procedures which will be a matter of public knowledge. The act will now require them to do so.

The procedural guidelines which the department has established over the year, although they won't be made law as such, will now be offered as a way of addressing this concern, and council will then have an assurance tha t th ose people appearing before them and councillors themselves have a set policy and can rely on an orderly process in the conduct of council business. lt is my hope, Sir, that eventually we will have, within reason, a standard procedural by-law across the province that, with some modifications, meets both the needs of the cltizenry of the province and the needs of local councils with some variations to accommodate local circumstance.

Another very minor technical amendment provides some flexibility for municipal councils in holding their Inaugural meeting, once again a request from the municipalities. The old provision provided that all municipal councils In the whole of the province had to have their inaugural meeting on the same day, basically at the same time to provide for the indu ction of the new council. There is provision now for some flexibility in the establishment of that date. lt is proposed that these meetings will be held not earlier than seven days or later than 14 days following the date of the election.

As well, the question of coping with the proposed meeting where a quorum will not be present, is clarified and I expect that municipalities will welcome this increased flexibility in dealing with quorum problems. Ano ther section, Sir , is amended to cla rify the question of establishing and utilizing reserve funds in an uni ncorporated village district. The provisi on, Sir, will clarify the right that many assumed was there all along for UVDs to establish reserve funds. The question of raising amounts required for reserve fund purposes is also clarified.

Another section, Sir, will be amended to make it clear that the municipal Conflict of Interest Act applies to uni ncorporated village districts. That application removes the requirement for certain references In contracts and penalties contained in the current act so that

section can then be repealed. That wasn't picked up when the municipal council Conflict of Interest Act was brought in, and this now will extend that to UVDs and remove the limitations on UVD councillors which exist. One of the benefits, Sir, of the conflict of Interest legislation was that it freed municipal councillors from those restrictions. This will now be extended to UVD councillors. Another section, Sir, Is being changed to provide some flexibility for the Department of Municipal Affairs and for municipalities with regard to parks boards, muni cipal committees or organizations where the municipality is represented. For example, Sir, at the present time the

section requires a municipal auditor to examine the books of a municipal recreation board if the municipality is represented in the form of one of its councillors on that board. The proposed amendment will provide some flexibility so the Director of Muni cipal Advisory and Financial Services may accept an audit report which is not done by the person appointed as municipal auditor. This Is a matter which has been raised by many municipal councils, and I'm sure the proposed change will be welcome.

I trust members opposite have also heard th e complaint that the cost of a municipal auditor audit on a minor commun ity organization to which the council may contribute some funds or on the board of which a municipal councillor may sit can be prohib itive and, on some occasions, represent an amount equal to the full budget of the organization. So, Sir, it's proposed to offer some flexibility here.

Another amendment, Sir, clarifies the authority of Manitoba Properties Incorpor ated to pay grants In lieu of taxes, because of the ownership by Ma nitoba Properties In corporated of certain property In municipalities on which grants in lieu of taxes are presently being paid and have been paid In the past. As presently worded, there was some lack of clarity and certainty as to that author ity, although members may wish to discuss the detail in committee.

The proposed amendment will make it quite clear, Sir, that Ma nitoba Properties Incorporated has the same obligation as a wholly-owned Crown corporation, to pay grants in lieu of taxes to municipalities and my department will continue to be the vehicle for those payments as it has in the past. I believe, Sir, that concludes the matters of any Import in the amendments. lt is not an extensive bill, Sir.

I believe that all of the amendments which affect the municipalities directly and which have been discussed with them in principle over the last year and, In some cases over many years, will be welcomed by municipal 2763

MondaJ, 10 June, 1985 government and the municipal associations. I hope members, if they have specific questions for committee stage, will make use of the detailed guide to the amendments. I commend this bill to the House, Mr. Speaker, for second reading. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister. I would ask him on what principle should the taxpayer be compelled to pay for the legal expenses of a councillor who Is negligent?

On what basis should the taxpayer pay his legal expenses or any part of his premium for Insurance coverage, or is this being done simply to emulate the provincial model which the New Democratic Party started in the mid-'70s after a slander action against a Cabinet Minister and continuing to provide insurance coverage for a record number of negligent or libelous misstatements by Cabinet Ministers? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I regret that the Honourable Member for St. Norbert frames his question that way. I regret it for two reasons and I intend to answer it very specifically.

But if the context of the opposition commentary on this amendment Is to suggest that the willingness of a member of the public, a ratepayer, or anyone else, to sue a person holding elective public office Is therefore a reflection on the person who holds that office, I'm appalled. The municipal leadership throughout this province has experienced, as have members holding public office at the provincial level, an increased number of suits reflecting on their role as elected public officials .

And they have expressed concern, Sir, that that liability is personal and that they have no protection from their municipality. Now, if a member of council were to be found negligent in the performance of his or her duties, Sir, 1 expect that the electorate would deal with that member of council.

But, Sir, to assume that because a member of council, In the performance of his or her duties, and this is the role to which this liability would attach, is to be sued by a ratepayer or anyone else in this province or from some other province, is to be sued for how they voted on a subdivision application, is to be sued for any other thing, I would expect that in that public role we would deem it only fit and proper that they would be offered the protection of the municipal corporation which they're elected to serve.

If the member is suggesting, Sir, that municipal councillors should not receive that protection, I would certainly like to hear him put that on the record on second reading. Their experience over the last number of years is a public one and there has been a dramatic increase in the number of those types of suits filed.

Now, while I don't accept the assumption the honourable member makes in his question, that because members of this government or of the Schreyer Government experienced some suits, and he suggests, Sir, it's because in some way statements made are Irresponsible or whatever, to then assume, even if that assumption were correct, that the same applies to those municipal officials who are being sued, I think is an offence to the municipal leadership of this province, without my even commenting on the offence that members on this side take from that comment which suggests that any time we are sued - and I don't know if I'm fortunate or unfortunate in not being in the category of those who've had that experience .

MR. C. MANNESS: You will. HON. A. ANSTETT: The Member for Morris says I will; I'm glad that he expects that I'll be here a long time. That's certainly my plan, too. I hope the member appreciates the principle that's being addressed here and in no way suggesting that municipal councillors are being irresponsible In the way they do their job in offering this protection to them. I trust , Sir, that he'll make clear in the debate on second reading that in asking that question he was not making that suggestion either. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell, that debate be adjourned. MOTION prennted and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Goverment House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would you please call Bill 7 for Second Reading? BILL NO. 7 - THE AGRICULTURAL CREDIT CORPORATION ACT HON. B. URUSKI presented, by leave, Bill No. 7,

An Act to amend The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act, for second reading. (Recommended by Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor) MOTION prennted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In bringing forth this amendment, Mr. Speaker, it is our intention to broaden the definition of farmer, to allow for loan assistance to legitimate part-time farmers who wish to eventually make farming their sole or major occupation.

Sir, part-time farming has become an Important alternative for many young and beginning farmers to enter the industry because of growing equity and capital requirements of the industry. Off-farm income Is a major way of building up equity to provide the minimum capital needs to get started in farming; and furthermore, Sir, the current credit policy of MACC does not enable MACC to provide credit assistance to those legitimate part-time farmers who would not be able to rapidly 2784

Monday, 10 June, 1985 accumulate sufficient equity to develop a viable farm unit. During my winter meetings, Sir, on farm financing , approximately 350 farmers were surveyed as to their preference for loans to various types of part-time farmers, and they ind icated a strong preference for a numb er of options that we should consider as being eligible for MACC financing. Basic target groups, according to their preference, would be previous full time farmers who as a result of adverse economic circumstances have been forced to obtain full-time or part-time off-farm jobs in order to sustain their farm operations.

That certainly is a category that was supported by farmers surveyed and it would allow those individuals to keep a farm base and of course would ease, as one would say, the re-entry process into full time farming as their financial situation would improve. Of course, by not losing that farm family, the rural community and rural Manitoba would benefit by having those people stay on the farm. The second category that was supp orted was those who wish to start farming but do not have an adequate farm base to be full-time farmers immediately, but wish to phase into full-time farming.

Typically this group would have to phase into full-time farming, and in order to get into full-time farming, of course, the capital required is very high and one would need substantial equity to be able to get that capital. To purchase a one

section grain farm, I think, in southern Manitoba would require a capital investment of anywhere between $300,000 and $400,000.00. MR. C. MANNESS: Less now. HON. B. URUSKI: Less now, the Honourable Member for Morris says. An individual would require at least $1 50,000 to $200,000 cash down payment to have any hope of long-term viability on the basis of grain prices as they are. And this again would ease the entry of young beginning farmers, with little or no family support, into agricultur e.

The third area being considered and being supported by farmers, is those who want to gradually take over their parents' farm, the inner-generational transfer. This would assist, as I indic ated, to allow farm families to transfer farms to their next of kin in an orderly fashion. So we want to indi cate clearly that this amendment to the act is not intended to open the doors completely; it is intended to have MACC provide financing for those who wish to maintain a working career, and supplement their income from farming. We don't want to have that occur.

Our hope is that farming, the intent on farming, that farming will be a full-time occupation for those people entering it. We don't want to provide the opener for the professionals who wish to set up hobby farms as a supplementary source of income, that is what is not intended. So the definition and the expansion and the criteria will be developed through regulations.

And I want to indic ate to the honourable members, of those who were surveyed, almost three-quarters of the respondents to the survey showed support for MACC provi ding financing for part-time farmers; 96 percent of those who responded agreed that financing should be provided to those who have been forced to work off the farm; 78 percent of those who responded suppor t financing for those who wish to ph ase into agriculture; and again, 98 percent of the respondents support MACC financing for those who gradually want to take over their parents farm, while maintaining a full-time job. Mr.

Speaker, it was also very clear that 81 percent of those respondents felt that MACC should not - and I stress that should not - provide financing for those who wish to use farming as a supplement to their off farm incomes just as a way to use the income tax for write-offs and professionals. So, Mr. Speaker, we recommend these changes to the members of the Assembly and we hope that they will approve these amendments so that we can have the corporation begin doing the necessary work in developing program changes as it applies to part-time farming. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question?

The Honourable Member for Roblin-R ussell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, that debate be adjourned. MOTION preaented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If there is a predisposition to dispense with Private Members' Hour tod ay, I would be prepared to move us Into Supply on that understanding. MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? Leave has been granted. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I beg to move, seconded by the Min ister of Education, whose Estimates start today, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker, we will be continuing consideration of the Estimates of Employment Services and Economic Security in Room 255. If they are completed at some point today, it would be our intention to then commence consideration of the Estimates of Indus try, Trade and Technology. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MOTION preaented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for Education; and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for Emplo yment Services and Economi c Security. 2765

Monday, 10 June, 1185 CONCURRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EM PLOYMENT SERVICES AND ECONOMIC SECUR ITY MA. CHAIRMA N, C. Santoa: Committee, please come to order. We are considering Item No. 3.{f)(4)(

a) Northern Development Agreement - Canada - Salaries; (4)(

b) Other Expenditures; (4)(

c) Northern Youth Corps; and (4)(

d) Less: Recoverable from Northern Affairs. The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think we discussed the Northern Youth Corps earlier, so we can by-pass that one. But the Northern Summ er Youth Education Program, what is the fund ing for that program? MA. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, that program involves, as is noted, $1 90,900 worth of expenditure in the'85- 86 year, involving just a little over 7 staff years.

The program provides summ er education opportunities for children residing in remote or semi isolated northern communiti es through access to a 12- day educational and recre ational program. The first and last day of each session are design ated as travel days to enable children to be transported from their community to Cranberry Portage. So, in effect, it's a matter of bringing in people from these remote communit ies for a 12-day education and recreational experience.

Al so, there are 16 post-s eco ndary students specializing in fields related to youth education who are employed - they are summer jobs for these younger people who are employed - as counsellors. The staffing of course includes counsellors; there's a nur sing adminis trator, kitchen help and so on to run this little training centre. MRS. C. OLESON: Is there any cost to the students attending? HON. L. EVANS: No, there is no cost, Mr. Chairman. MRS. C. OLESON: I note from the Annual Report that these are Grades 4 to 9.

Can a student go more than once and does that program run all of July and August? - with different groups it would be 12 days. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, they would normally only go once in the summertime, although they could go a subsequent year, perhaps. MRS. C. OLESON: I think we can pass that item. MA. CHAIRMAN: 3.(f)(4)(a)-pass; 3.(f)(4)(b)-pass; 3.(f)(4)(c)- pass; 3.(f)(4)(d)- pass. 3.(f)(5)(

a) Stevenson Aviation and Technical Training Centre, Salaries; 3.(f)(5)(

b) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minis ter give us an outline of this program? Is it a new program? What necessitated it and where is it located? HON. L. EVANS: it is new. lt was established in response to a need identified for a training facility in the provi nce to provide programs in aircraft mai ntenance. At the present time, the centre is delivering what's called in-school portion of the very first Aircraft Mechanics Apprenticeship Program to be found anywhere in Canada.

In addition to apprenticeship training, the centre offers a wide range of manufacturers' endorsement courses and other indus try-specific training with respect to Transport Canada's lic ensin g and regulatory requirements. I guess to put it in another way, what we're doing is training people who will be working, in large measure, not necessarily total but in large measure, in remote northern communities. There we need people who have mechanical skills to fix up aircraft that may land, may need some repairs, in those remote communi ties. Generally, it's a program that has been endorsed by industr y.

I understand that we do upgrade and retrain indus trial employees to make them qualified to work on specific kinds of engines and that sort of thing. Some of the money Is obtained by charging back to the Canada Employment and Immig ration Department, like buying of spaces as In a community college. In addition, we obtain some revenue from the companies who send their employees there. MRS. C. OLESON: So there are students from other provinces. What does it cost the student to attend? HON. L.

EVANS: Okay, maybe the important thing, without getting into the numbers, although we've got some numbers here, for anyone out of the province we recover the full costs of it, either from CEIC or the employer. So it's fully paid for from Saskatchewan, let's say, so there is no burden on the Manitoba employer. In total, of a $202,800 expenditure - this Is the total, the bottom line - we'll be recovering $191 ,000 in this program. So there is not much of a net cost to the taxpayers. it's very - 10 percent, less than 10 percent. MRS. C.

OLESON: Well, when I meant cost per student, I should have also asked then, do Manitoba students pay a tutition fee, say, to both, or is it funded through this department? HON. L. EVANS: The individu al doesn't pay. it's either CEIC or the company that employs the individual. MRS. C. OLESON: Maybe we can pass that, too. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(f)(5)(a)- pass; 3.(f)(5)(b)-p ass. 3.( g)

(1) Hu man Resou rces Opportunity Program: Salaries; 3.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures; 3.(g)

(3) Financial Assistance - Cl ients; 3.(g)

(4) Hu man Resou rce Opportunity Centres - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Are there still seven of these in operation? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, there has been no change in the numb er from last year. MRS. C. OLESON: How many people were served by this? Or could the Mini ster give us a brief resume of how the Human Resource Program works and what sort of assistance they give to clients? 2766

Monday, 10 June, 1985 HON. L. EVANS: Okay, there are two aspects. The prog ram, of course, encompasses the centres. The centres are only one part of the program. The program itself involves all kinds of vocational counselling, work assessment, general counselling to people who are unemployed, and with particular reference to welfare recipients. In fact, this program I think got started originally back in the '70s with an attempt by the Government of the Day to try to seek employment opportun ities to people on social allowances, social assistance. So it is of a general nature; there is a lot of liaison.

In fact, one of the reasons for putting the welfare or the social assistance money in with the job programs and these kind of programs was to bring everything together. So there is a great deal of counselling that goes on. For the year 1984, which is the last year that we have, there were 509 cases of vocational counselling; there was 204 cases of vocational training and so on; 181 were placed In Human Resource Centres. Now there could be others going into the Human Resource Centres other than referenced by this particular staff, 1 would understand. But I'm sorry; that is of Januar y 1, 1984.

As of December 31, 19 84, there were 204. This is broken down, and I think there is some information in our Annual Report; but in total as of December 31, 1984, there were over 1, 000 cases of people assisted either in vocational training, work training, referenced to Human Resource Centres, employment follow-up counselling and so on; so there's that staff.

But as I said, the centres themselves, there are seven around the province and what we have been doing is something in larger measure this past year, I believe, something we started a couple of years ago, and that is to reach out from the centre with our work experience program. Up until about two or three years ago, all the work pretty well of the Human Resource Opportunity Centres was done under a particular roof, sort of a sheltered workshop more or less, rather confined to the workshop. There were exceptions, of course.

In Winnip eg there were work crews going around painting and so on but, by and large, most of it was of the shelter workshop variety. What we've done now is added that component. We've continued the sheltered workshop component, but we've added now the work experience program as of a couple of years ago, and we're continuing with that. What it does, of course, is to help those centres reach out and assist people in Glenboro, Souris, Virden. lt would reach out and replace people in other communities and, therefore, it has a broader impact on the province. So to that extent, it is good.

The work experience program, we are prepared to place people after they have had a certain amount of life skills training, etc., and counselling, in real work positions, perhaps with a muncipal council, a hospital, some private small businessman or whatever and they get the work experience right on the job. At the same time our counselling people, more or less, keep an eye on the progress of the individual and so on. The ulti mate ideal, of course, is for these people to obtain full-time regular employment at the end.

Some do, some do n't. it depends. lt depends on th e circumstances. lt depends on the individual. But I would say we are the foremost in Canada in this kind of programming. On a proportionate basis, I don't think any other province is engaged in this kind of activity to the extent that the Province of Manitoba is. I recall being at a conference a couple of years ago where many of the provinces said that they had been getting out of this kind of service. I thought that was unfortunate because I think its something that we have to do more of, rather than less of.

In terms of the centres, in 1984 we served 1, 490 participants and in 1985 we expect to serve about 1, 500. Of th ose, 650 were in a commu nity base work experience program and 350 were in special programs. I'm sorr y, that's in addition . The placement into employment or to further training out of that 1, 500 were 540, and 210 completed the program and were considered ready for jobs. Some of them did obtain employment within a few weeks, but others we don't know. The bottom line is we felt that 750 had positive completion from that program.

So what we have done over the years is to expand the throughput of clientele. We've kept the size of the staff down, and we have been able to handle more clients because we've gone out to the private sector. We've gone out to muni cipalities. We have gone out to organizations and said, look, here are some people who need some work. We're going to continue to pay them this allowance. Will you give them a chance? Will you give them a job? In Winnip eg here, there have been all kinds of interesting cases where we've placed people even in government departments and so on, including Mother's Allo wances.

Some people have been on Mother's Allowances for years and their children have grown up, but they're having a hard time getting back into the work force. This program can help them. There are quite a few success stories where women, In particular, have been given a chance, whether they're working in an office or In a technical lab or whatever. Some of them have been employed thereafter, so it has had some pretty positive impact. I'm not saying it's as good as we like it to be. it can always be better, but it's an effort that Is worth pursuing in my view. MRS. C.

OLESON: The referrals to this program are mainly from your field staff then, field workers? HON. L. EVANS: The referrals are from the field staff, Mr. Chairman. There are a variety of places, not only our employment counsellors, but we get it from the city welfare departments, rehabilitation services of different kinds. There are different agencies around. Our own social allowances staff in the department might refer, so there are a variety of sources of names. MRS. C.

OLESON: The people taking this program who are on social assistance - and you mentioned that in some cases a lot of women were helped by this Is there a system for them for day care and babysitting services while they're taking these programs? HON. L. EVANS: In fact, it's typical If a woman or a man who is in the program and is only able to work if somebody looks after the children during the day in 2767

Monday, 10 June, 1815 a day care setting, they are eligible for day care services just like anybody else is. MRS. C. OLESON: You said your department approached busi nesses and municipalities and others to place these people. There, no doubt, is a great deal of effort made to place them in their own community setting. HON. L. EV ANS: Seven centres pretty well covers - mostly, I guess, southern Manitoba with the exception of The Pas. In most cases, people are working in the areas that they come from. I guess there may be the odd exception. In some cases, people may have to move or they travel back and forth.

In places like Amaranth, they may have to come Into Portage or over to Dauphin. MRS. C. OLESON: We could pass this section, I think. MR. CH AIR MAN: 3.( g)(1 )- pass; 3.(g)(2)- pass; 3.(gX3)- pass; 3.(gX4)- pass. Resolution 57: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $12, 746,500 for Em ployment Services and Eco nomic Secur ity, Employment Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 198 6-p ass. Item No. 4. Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, (

a) Salaries; 4.(

b) Other Expenditures - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Mr. Chairman, there is a decrease In allocation for this department both in the Salaries and Other Expenses. Could the Min ister explain? HON. L. EVANS: There are three fewer staff, from 13 down to 10. We've repriorlzed, reallocated some of the work. Some of the work that was done by the bureau, we are asking some other departments to do and also through computerization we've got some economies as well. MRS. C. OLESON: How ma ny government departments rely on this department for their statistical information and what departments are they? HON. L.

EVANS: Virtually, the bureau interfaces with all departments, some a little bit more than others and also with the Crown corporations. For example, Manitoba Hydro, in doing its estimates of future load growth, future demand, growth for the hydro, they want to get some estimates of population growth in Manitoba and they rely on the Bureau of Statistics for the official population projection for the province.

Here's an idea of the departments that use them the most, the Department of Finance is one of the bigger users; our own department uses them for the labour force statistics; Industry, Trade and Technology uses them quite a bit; Business Development, and so on. Then there is general information for the public. There are requests from the business community and others out there. There is a general liaison with the Federal Government. We have a lot to do with Statistics Canada.

Under the legislation setting up the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, we have access to certain detailed tabulations of Statistics Canada for Manitoba that we wouldn't have had otherwise. lt enables us to get more details, particularly of rural Manitoba which we wouldn't get out of the Statistics Canada reports. I might add that the bureau is going on into doing as much original work as possible and we're particularly trying to get Into small area data where we're using postal codes to get subprovincial small area tabulations which were never available before.

We can only do that with the co-operation of Statistics Canada. They have been engaged in a sourcing directory recently to identify supply capabilities of Manitoba firms for Limestone and other Hydro projects so that we can maximize the work in the Province of Man itoba. Another important bit of work is preparing economic counts of the Province of Manitoba, the gross provincial product and all that type of material, many provinces are now trying to produce their own, and I guess Manitoba is one of the last to come into this, so a lot of work is being done there.

They undertake reviews and surveys for different departments from time to time and act in a service capacity. MRS. C. OLESON: Do they do any service for the private companies and so forth that require statistics? You don't do any contract work of that type? HON. L. EVANS: No, Mr. Chairman, the bureau does not sell its services to the private companies. lt doesn't act as a consulting agency. We are not competing with the private consultants in that respect. However, there is one caveat.

Sometimes there may be a project un dertaken between a private sector and th e government, say, looking at some sort of a tourist study or whatever, and we will of course provide any data that we can to help them, but generally we are not in the private consulting business. MRS. C. OLESON: What about the Health Department? Do you prepare statistics for them? HON. L. EVANS: The Health Department tabulates a lot of statistics from Mani toba Health Services Commission. Those are their administrative records that they keep on people in hospitals, etc.

The most critical piece of information that they use from us is population projections for regions within Man itoba to help project senior citizens populations 10 years, 20 years down the line with regard to the need for nur sing homes, for example. MRS. C. OLESON: Has this department, the Bur eau of Statistics, always been with, say, the Community Services? Has it ever been with any other department? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, it used to be with Industry, Trade and Technology and before that with Economic Development. it's been with two or three other departments. MRS. C.

OLESON: Was it a matter of the workload that it was put into this one, or did this seem to be, to your government, the best place to fit it in? HON. L. EVANS: it's always been related to an economic portfolio type of department. I can tell you, 2768

Monday, 10 June, 1815 I was the Min ister that brought the legislation in and I have a particular interest in it. MRS. C. OLESON: You felt that it should stay with you? HON. L. EVANS: I will let you in on a state secret. For eight years I worked for Statistics Canada and I know a little bit about the organization and some of the problems. MRS. C. OLESON: I think we can pass that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass this one? 4.(a)- pass; 4.(b) pass.

Resolution No. 58: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $372,700 for Employment Services and Economic Security, Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1986- pass. Back to the Minis ter's Salary, Item No. 1.(a) - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this was an item that the Minister is aware that I am dealing with and without using names, I wish to bring the concerns that I've had on behalf of this particular person. I had written to the Min ister.

First of all, I spoke to him in the House regarding this matter; wrote to him, sending him all the information on the 29th of March; sent another letter on May 22nd and received a reply on June 5th, all the while getting calls from the particular person that this was concerned with. As far as I am concerned. in this particular case, and I am sure there must be others, it sort of read like a bit of a horror story.

I found when I went over this, just this one case - and this is someone, I might add, that is not in my constituency at all but someone that just didn't seem to be able to find anyone who would help out - I can see that although I have done this on her behalf, I am feeling badly that I haven't been able to help any more either. The last concern that she had and the thing that I particularly wrote about was hydro overpayments.

I und erstand the department wanting to pick up these payments, but when someone turns in all their receipts over one year, and the overpayments are nof caught then, but they are caught the following year when you go back a year-and-a-half, I think that is an error on the part of the department and I think it's an error that the department should be picking up. I know on behalf of this person I had asked that the whole thing be picked up because I really feel that over the years she has had to battle tooth and nail. I don't know where they get the strength, quite frankly, to have to do this.

She has had appeals on food allowances - because she is a diabetic - turned down. The Min ister has okayed it; then has to appeal for retroactivity, turned down again, and the Minister okayed that from what I can gather. She's just had a long line of fighting the department.

I would think that someone who is in her sixties, who has been on social allowance for a long time, health is not good, and certainly this sort of thing does not help it, I think there is something very dra stically wrong in the department because I don't feel that she is the only one, but what I feel what does happen, Is that not too many of them have the energy to fight back. I am sure I wouldn't have. it would be enough to make you turn to drink.

But I think in cases like this woman who has had difficulties, $10 3 does not sound like a lot of money; to someone who is on social allowance, $10 3 is a lot of money.

What happened to this particular person is - and I und erstand that the department felt they were being more than generous by cutting the payments in half, at least the amount she had to pay in half and she was made to pay back I think it was $11 .30 a month rather than I suppose $22.60 to which it might have been - but they cut her hydro payments back from $ 15 to $9, so she had a total of $17 .30 a month taken off her monthly payment, and some of this, six months of that, was an oversight by the department.

I really do feel in this case, then possibly it should have come off whoever's salary it was that made the error. Since that's not possible, and I am being a bit facetious when I say that, it just makes me feel that why should this woman have to pay for an error made in the department?

I kn ow you want to balance your books, but I can't help but look at all the grants that I have seen through your department going to all sorts of different organizations, and I see the amount of money that's been spent on the International Year of the Youth, and while these things are all very nice, in times, and in hard times, I think some of this money could be cut back. If you explain to the youth of today that they're possibly getting money at the expense of women who are on social allowance, they might be a little bit more eager to do things on their own. I know they are.

Any time you talk to any of the young people today, I want to tell you they are more than responsive. They und erstand where it's at. They know the hard times they have going to university. The ones who can't go to university get jobs; they know times are tough. I don't think anybody ever tells them about people like this. While they're getting funds to have an Inn ovative program, someone etse is having a hardship. I really find that this woman has just had a terrible, terrible time because of this department.

Now, when I phoned her to tell her about the contents of the letter where the Mi nister ind icated tha t: "I regret the difficulties tha t she has experienced and the dissatisfaction she has felt with the social allowance program. I do not feel it would be appropriate to comply with your request that the $ 103.68 overpayment be refunded. To do so would result in the inequitable treatment of other social allowance recipients who must comply with all social allowances policy requirements." If that's the department policy, fine.

But when she turned in invoices the year before and it wasn't caught then, she darned well shouldn't have had to pay it a year after. I think it's pretty disgraceful. Not only that, when I phoned this woman about your reply, it turns out that they decreased her hydro bill such that now the department owes her $27.00. There is something wrong with the system. Never should we be in a position of your collecting this money from her, and then they've deducted lt. They've made th e payments to her on the hydro so low that now she's in a position that she has to collect from the department.

There has got to be a better way to do this. 2789

Monday, 10 June, 1985 This woman, over time, has gone to the Ombudsman; there's been money spent there. She's been to Legal Aid; there has been money spent there, far more than the amount of $10 3.68 was ever going to come to. If it had been caught in the first place, you wouldn't have had the complaint because she wouldn't have complained about going back a year, but she certainly had a legitimate complaint going back further. The time that she has had to take going down, seeing all these people on this Issue - she's a real fighter, and 1 can't admire this woman more for having to battle the system.

I know that all things are not perfect, but I tell you, when I have read the file on this particular woman, from Day One she's had to battle. If she's not battling food costs, she's battling something else. This is just one case that has come to my attention. 1 had another case that came to my attention on something very similar, but this is the one that just seems to go back time and time again. it's almost you get the feeling when you read the correspondence, and I hope that you did read it, that the minute you battle the department then, boy, they're going to get you. You don't dare question.

I can't help but get that feeling for all that the Deputy Minister wrote letters saying what they were doing and how they were going to review cases and how they reviewed her case, it seems a shame that the Deputy Minis ter had to step in so often in this case and that the Minis ter has had to step in.

I feel that there's something very wrong In a department - I would have thought that someone like this person, when this hydro bill came up, that they would have been reviewing her case with extra, extra care because going back to I think it's probably the late '70s - I've just picked up the files from about'82 - she's been battling with the department. I understand when people are on long term, but at the very same time I would think when this person's file came up, someone would have red flagged it and said, look, stop, let's take a good look at this person. She's had to battle.

But the feeling that I have had reading all the correspondence that it's the reverse. Wha t has happened is when they see her file, it's stick it to her. That's the feeling I get out of it, rightly or wrongly. I'm sure this is the feeling that she has, because she's down every other week. She is having to trot down to somebody, whether it's the Ombudsman, whether it's the department. This isn't right; this isn't the sort of thing that should happen to people. They are in dire enough straits. This government is constantly talking about helping women.

Well, I think this was a good case, and I think even if the Minis ter had not been able to come up with the whole $10 3.68, he sure should have been able to come up with the six months before. That should have been at least some measure of relief for this woman. In the correspondence from the Ombudsman, and I'm not referring to her medical file which they threw out, I un derstand that. I'm just going on just generally what has happened to this woman and how she is feeling about the system.

They are saying in each case that the anti-poverty organization, when they wrote a letter on her behalf, that it seems that she has been harassed by the department, like anyone who looks at the file feels that. I feel that the Minister is very remiss in not coming to a better solution than he did on the hydro bill, because here again Is someone - and they have a hard time fighting. There is nobody really that fights on their behalf, because nobody even knows they're out there half the time. it's like there is a forgotten part of society out there on social assistance.

I under stand that the Min ister can't step In, in every case. But good heavens, the correspondence has been going on for about three or four years to the department and to the Minis ter. Everything's done under duress. I can't help but feel that this is one person and that it's happening to so many more, only we won't hear about those women because they haven't got the energy to come forward. HON. L. EVANS: As I have indicated to the member before, she herself has agreed and, as described, this is a case that has been around for a long long time.

The Ombudsman, as I understand, did clear the department on the administrative side and we have taken the usual measure of having Mrs. Harder's case being looked after by the Deputy Director of our sout hwestern district office in Winnip eg, rather than a regular councillor. I just say this - a couple of points - we have over 22,000 cases we are dealing with in the Province of Manitoba. That does not include any of the municipal welfare, that Is handled by the cities, we reimburse them.

But we are dealing with 22,000-plus cases and in any admi nistration it Is impossible to always be perfect, it is impossible to always be making the right judgment. We have a large staff, we have hundr eds of people in the field dealing with social assistant recipients day in, day out. I guess the service is only as good as your staff out there. it's like Eaton's or The Bay or any big organization; your impression of Hudson's Bay is as good as the clerks that you deal with in that store, I suppose, and the kind of service you get.

Again, I am not familiar with all the Ins and outs, but perhaps she may have had some un fortu nate circumstance. But the problem is that you have all these agencies available; the Ombudsman was available, the Ombudsman looked into it, cleared the department. There is the Welfare Appeal Board which she and any recipient is entitled to go to. The Welfare Appeal Board are not civil servants, they don't work under the Deputy Minister. The Chair and the Welfare Appeal Board are directly responsible to the Minister and they are free, under the act, to make adjustments, and they do make adjustments.

So, she had that recourse and she has gone through them as well. I believe In this case my Deputy Minis ter also met with this individual regarding this hydro overpayment, as well as, with other concerns. I don't know what else I can tell you, except to say, it is very very difficult. I can't, as a Min ister, wipe out a debt; I can't wipe out a debt for anybody. The only way we can wipe out a debt is to go to the Cabinet and have a special Order in-Council passed.

The problem that I see, and that I am advised by staff, is that from time to time these overpayments occur and to collect back we usually have a deduction from the regular future monthly payment of some amount, hopefully it's not too much, so that it is not too much of a burden. But, if we allow it In one case, then we have no justification for not allowing it in other cases. So what the member is bringing up is a major policy issue. I think what the member is bringing up, because 2no

llondeJ , 10 June, 1985 she feels great compassion for this individual, and I can understand that, is that we should have a policy that if we make an error - if I didn't misunderstand her, if I heard her properly - if it is the department's fault In making an overpayment that the department should be responsible and, therefore, there should be no bill back or requirement to pay back an overpayment, if it was the department's responsibility. I think that was the suggestion.

What I find in this field of welfare and social assistance is that whenever you make an adjustment in a policy, and even something that sounds pretty innocuous or whatever, it always ends up with a lot of money. The suggestion was made that we provide phones to everybody. Well, our best estimate of that, because 75 percent of our clients now have phones and they take it out of their regular allowance, that would cost us at least $1. 5 million.

So a little adjustment for one individual, you multiple that by thousands of cases and you're always talking about an adjustment of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, and right now we're paying nearly $15 0 million In social welfare to the people of Manitoba, or whatever the number is, it's shown in here. lt varies, but it is a lot of money. So, if the member would like, we can sit down further, or I could have her sit down and talk to my deputy and go over this further.

I think the most important thing is not necessarily all the specifics of the individual case, but more the policy implications of the case. The one policy implication that I could see Is that we should take the responsibility where we make an error. We had what was called a Ryant Report, Ryant Commission, and some major suggestions were made with regard to changing procedures, but every one of them had a very big cost.

We were talking about tens of millions of dollars everytime; it looked so good, it looked so right and so proper but we, as a government, have got to come up with that money, and that's our problem. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I understand, Mr. Chairman, about the cost. On this particular overpayment, I think if it had been reviewed, or the department had reviewed the one year and had forgotten the other six months that they had overlooked. Because I think going back one year on somebody who is on social assistance is certainly long enough when they're reviewing it from year to year.

If they can't find the overpayment after one year, then that's not the recipients fault. I think, as In anything else, and you'll find this In business, too, when lt turns out to be their error, after a number of years, people sure go after them. I feel what is happening, in cases like this, is in most cases people cannot fight back; they don't have the resources, usually they don't have the strength. We have someone here who does and she'll probably die fighting the department.

Unfortunately, I hate to think that it might be because she's having to fight that she might go earlier than she had anticipated; but that is her feeling, too, that her health is getting worse from all this and not better, and I can well understand that. What I do feel is that the department could possibly, If there are a lot of cases of overpayment and underpayment, that maybe they could review six months and then that doesn't hurt the same way when you are looking at hydro bills and when you're looking at these bills.

These people have to do it anyway and they're turning it in so it wouldn't be any problem for them possibly to look at it in hydro overpayments, or whatever payments there are like that where it does cost, because that $1 7.30 a month for six months is a lot of bucks when you haven't got very much. I really think that they might look at looking at it a little ·more frequently so that this sort of thing doesn't happen, because I'm sure it is happening all the time, and that they must be very careful when they do one year.

I think after one year is finished and you have told the person everything is fine, I don't think you go back on them another six months. If they have to find some way of taking it out of expenses, or something else out of the department, I suggest that's what they do. I would think in very short order that these errors wouldn't reoccur, but I think that there should be something done. I think what I'll do is I will take the opportunity to meet with the Deputy Minister on this and go a little bit further because she did give me some other information that I prefer not to put in public.

I do think that there is never a perfect system, possibly, but when you're dealing with people who are underprivileged, and In so many cases it is women who are struggling, and in lots of cases, they don't know their rights. That was the case of this person, too, it was just as she went along and she started to battle that she found out what rights she did have. I think they have to be extra, I'm trying to think of the word - careful, is probably not the right word that I'm grasping for - but I think when dealing with these cases, and I know there are many, but then that's the problem today that we have.

We've got so many people who are out of work, so many people who can't get jobs, you can't but lay that at the department and the government. This is part of what happens when you're In government. You say you're creating jobs. We're looking, and you see more and more people going on welfare, more and more people having to be on unemployment insurance and we have a big problem. So there's a lot more that needs to be done.

But I think in cases like this the department has just got to bend over backwards when it comes to dealing with these people, and letting everyone know just what their rights are so that this doesn't happen again. HON. L. EYANS: I appreciate the member's concern. I just want to make this comment, that in this area of administration I find that whoever is responsible is in a no-win situation, because there are many many people such as the honourable member who feel very compassionate towards a lot of our clients, and who feel we should be doing more and better, etc.

Then there are a great many people of our fellow Manitobans out there who think we're too soft on welfare recipients, that we should be a lot tougher and there are just too many people abusing the system. I might advise, the overpayrnents don't normally come from utility bills. My understanding is it's from other things where people may have other living arrangements that are not reported and other income that's received that is not reported regret1ably, then when it's found out subsequently , then an overpayment has been 2771

Monday, 10 June, 1915 discovered and adjustments are made. That's the more commonly known case and I don't want to pass any judgment on them. I'm just saying those are the facts. But I just want to say this, that in some cases we pay the utility payments dir ectly so there is not even a cash payment. lt goes to the recipient. We would pay it directly. I want to also make this general observation. I think what we have in Manitoba Is, with all of Its administrative difficulties, we have a fairly generous system.

What's been going on around Canada in the last two to three years has been a cutback and a reduction in assistance to the poorest people in the land. If you are under 30 and single in some of the Maritime provinces and, I believe, Quebec, you could get $15 0 a month, take lt or leave it. That's for everything. You're supposed to live on $150 a month, food, clothing, shelter and everything and, of course, they can't. I was In New Brunswick, and the New Bru nswick Mini ster said, yes, we only pay $15 0.00. I said, well how do those young people manage? He says, well they shack up.

They get together, four, five, six in a room, and then there are all kinds of social problems that emanate from that. The Province of Man itoba, the Government of Manitoba has not cut back. We have not discrimi nated against young people. Whether you're 18 or 80, you're entitled to the same rates that have been established to help people who are In need. To that extent, I think we're like a shining beacon In the way we've treated the people on welfare. The other point Is, that in some provinces, they have really attacked the rights of women.

In the Province of British Columbia, because there was discrimination I think between fathers' allowances and mothers' allowances, Mr. Bennett and his government eliminated mothers' allowances. There are no such things as mothers' allowances in the Province of British Columbia anymore. They removed them a couple of years ago. In B.C., a mother - it doesn't matter how many children - she has to be prepared to go out and seek and find work and prove that she's getting work before she can get any help.

In the Province of Manitoba, you automa tically get social assistance if you have dependent children and you have no other source of income. lt's almost like a right, and it has been like that for 25, 30 years, ever since the system started. I'm just using those as two examples where, in my judgment, in my view, some of our Canadian sister provinces have gone backwards. They have cut back, and they've made it much more difficult in the name of saving money for the poorest people in the land. Our government on January 1, 19 82, increased social allowances rates by 16.5 percent, way and above inflation.

The honourable member perhaps knows what I'm going to say and what I'm talking about because, regrettably, under the admini stration of Mr. Lyon, the rate of increase of social allowances was below the rate of inflation. Inflation was, let's say, running 9 percent, 10 percent, 11 percent, and the social allowance recipients were getting an increase of two or three percentage points. That hurts. That really hurts when inflation is raging and you're getting only a quarter or a third of what the rate of inflation should dictate.

In January 1, 1982, we increased by 16.5 percent to try to catch up, and we did bring our social recipient rates up very substantially. Since that time, we have kept pace with inflation as we've been able to calculate it. I'm just making that as a general case. I say, by and large, the Province of Manitoba has been generous, is generous. No system is perfect. You'll always find some problems. I would like to and I do appreciate the member's concern, because it is a genuine, legitimate concern and I have made some notes based on her concerns.

If we can maybe make some Improvements to the administration, I would be the first one to try to do that, and we'll see what we can do. But I do repeat, any1ime you make a so-called imp rovement, it usually costs the taxpayers more money. The taxpayers of Manitoba have been damn generous to social recipients in this province to the tune of $14 0 million to $15 0 million a year. MRS. C. OLESON: I don't want to either increase, decrease. What I would like to point out Is, I think some of the fault is in the present system.

I don't care about Saskatchewan or some of the other places particularly, and it's Manitoba that I'm concerned about, and so often it's the women in Manitoba who we have to be concerned with. So where we find places that they've got to fight, these are the things that we're going to fight for here in Man itoba. These are the concerns that I have as an opposition member and would have as hopefully a government member, that we would look at these things and try and make changes that are sensible and that do not add to the cost, because as you say Manit obans have always been generous in every way.

But there are lots of cases right in this department where I have seen lots of money going out the door that I think, especially in some cases, where if tt was explained what's happening to another segment of society that people are willing to say, well, look, I don't really need that. But no one seems to be explaining. All they seem to be doing in society today is pointing out, look, they've increased the tax on chocolate bars. I find great fault with things like that where they don't say to somebody, we're doing that to maybe help someone else.

I think that governments in all areas could do better in explaining the reasons that we might have to help other people. HON. L. EVANS: Another point I would like to make is that, particularly with young people but of all ages, we are designating special allocations under our Manitoba Jobs Fund programs, like the Manitoba Jobs and Training Program. We make a special effort in the department to identify people who could get out and work and they do want to work. Most people do want to work. So we're bending over backwards to say, okay, here's somebody who is on welfare. Here's our jobs program.

Let's do what we can to get the private employers, because it's the private employers that are hiring them. We're not hiring them, but we're making the wage subsidy available to the private employer and we're saying to the private employer, here are some people that are available. So as I said, that was the rationale of putting all the welfare money in with the job programs and so on and, hopefully, somehow or other provide opportunit ies for a lot of people who are disadvantaged. 2772

Monday , 10 June, 1985 So I'm proud of the fact that we have allocated 25 percent of our monies under of the Manitoba Jobs and Training Program for Special Needs, including social allowance recipients and including women and there are some disabled cate gories and so on, but we recognize it and I agree with the member 100 percent. We have to do as much as we can to give these people an opportunity, and I'm sure we both agree that the vast majority of people who are healthy and capable of working do indeed want to work. They would much rather work any day. MRS. C. OLESON: Mr.

Chairman, there were just a few things I wanted to mention. One of them was an Order-in-Council that I received after we had discussed the Youth Ye ar programs and that Order-in-Council was authorizing $650,000 to the International Ye ar of the Youth. Now was that to pay for the projects that we have discus sed earlier , or was that in addition to the $530,000 for projects that we discus sed earlier? HON. L. EYANS: I don't have that to read but, if I understand the mem ber, I believe she is refe rring to the authority we had to spend up to $650,000 In the way of grants to youth organizations.

Original ly, it was $500,000 but, because we had so many requests, we increased it by $1 50,000 to give us a grant authority of up to $650,000, but all of those monies go to the young people, that's all grant money. MRS. C. OLESON: And in a further Order -in-Council of May 29th, it authorized the Minis ter to hire an executive assistant at $29,050 per year. Was that in addition to the staff that we were discussing under the Admin istration before? HON. L. EYANS: No. MRS. C. OLESON: That was within that parameter . Now another matter.

Some time in January, when the Mini ster was speaking to a group, he was suggesting that busi ness people should pay a tax, that businesses should pay a tax to help with job training. I am just wondering If the Min ister had pursued that, and is he thin king of Im plementing it, because I think the employers in this province would not take too kindly to that sort of a suggestion since they already train a fair lot of staff and since they pay the taxes that go into these job training programs that government does.

So I am just wondering if the Minis ter is considering making that a part of a new budget that he might bring out. HON. L. EYANS: Mr. Chairman, no, we are not thinking about bringing that in as part of a budget or a new tax or anything like that, it was a suggestion we made to the Federal Govern ment, to our sister provinces. If you did anything, such as, create a special training tax or a training levy, that would have to be done nationally; I would never suggest that we do that alone. A lot of monies are now being paid out for training in indus try, but we felt that there would be more equ ity.

What's happening is a lot of the big companies will take advantage of the training mo nies and the little companies may not; we thought it would be more equitable, we thought there would be more attention paid to training in indus try if you had this fund. There were some other arguments, so we threw it out as an idea. We did discuss it at one federal-provincial conference but that's about as far as it's gone. MRS. C.

OLESON: Well, in just summing up this department, I didn't notice in the discussions of social assistance any policy changes, anything new really to be built into the sys tem, particularly in one area that makes me wonder, and that is the incentive, or in this case is non-incentive.

Now for people on social assistance to take part-time work, at the present time, any monies that they acquire through work or, I guess, in many other cases through compensation or gifts and so forth, it is immedia tely deducted, of course, from their social assistance. lt seems to me that some method could be found that would encourage people to find jobs and to help themselv es.

I am sure, when the Member for Kirkfield Park was discussing the problem that she was bringing to the Min ister, people are willing to work, but in the case of people on social assistance, when every dollar is taken off that assistance, it doesn't give them much incentive to try and do at least part time work and, in doing the part-time work, getting thems elves some experience and something to write out a resume, something to tell a future emp loyer as having some experience. So I am hoping that the Minis ter's department is working on that area, it does concern me.

I know, as he said before, any changes you make usually end up in costing multi-dollars but I think that's one area that we could look at. lt's been mentioned to me many times, in di scussing this both with recipients and others, that there should be something to encou rage people to take jobs when they sometimes get the opportun ity, even on a very very limi ted basis, but some percentage or something worked out that would allow them to keep some of that because, of course, there are expenses that come up especially with families that wouldn't be covered under social assistance.

As we all know, any of us that have raised children, they want things and feel they need things that I am sure the social assistance doesn't allow them. I was concerned when I read the list of the Youth Ye ar projects that had been approved. There are some interest ing and, I am sure, some worthwhile projects there, but when you weigh that against some of the needs of some of the people in the province, as the Member for Kirkfield Park was saying, you have to look at it and wonder if some of the youths really do need these.

Even though they are a one-time thing it see ms like a lot of money to spend over .5 million, when there are so many people that could so badly use these funds.

When I first read the Youth Ye ar suggestions and looked at them, oh, there were all kinds of suggestions that looked like a lot of fun, but then to read the actual list of things that were done and the multi-dollars spent, it makes one wonder when you get calls from people who have severe financial problems, that are on social assistance, or are losing their businesses or their farms because of no fault of their own, and then we see this kind of money spent. lt does make you wonder because we are not the affl uent society that, perhaps, we once were and I think that has to be taken into considera tion.

MoncbiJ, 10 .lune, 1885 I don't think I have anything in particular now to mention. I think we have covered pretty well everything fairly thoroughly and there is always question period if there is something we have missed. HON. L. EVANS: I appreciate the member's comments. I just want to make one small point, and that's with allowing recipients to keep their wages. We have to be gu ided by the federal guidelines because we cost-share with Ottawa. We have some grandfather rights that enable us to allow the recipients to keep more than the nationally permitted amount, I've forgotten the percentage.

Recipients can keep a certain amount now; we can't go any higher because the Federal Government won't let us go any higher without losing cost-sharing. We brought it up at the last federal-provincial conference suggesting that that limit be raised, but I don't know whether anything will come of that. I agree with the member, though, on that point. But we do pay more than the national average, or we do allow more than the national guidelines simply because of some sort of grandfather rights that we have from years ago apparently. But those are some good points. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (a)- pass.

Resolution 55: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,266,800 for Employment Services and Economic Security , Adminis tration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 198 6-p ass. We shall take a small recess while we are waiting for the next department to be considered. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, the committee requests that we recess until 8 o'clock, by leave. MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave, the committee members shall return at 8 p.m. this evening. (Agreed) SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Education.

Does the Minister have an opening statement? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. lt Is my pleasure to intr oduce the Estimates for the Department of Education. In doing so, we will be distributing $573 .6 million to school divisions, an incr ease of $11. 8 million, or an increase of approxima tely 2 percent, Mr. Chairman. For the third year In a row, there will be no in crease in the provincial levy on property tax for education. Mr.

Chairman, with the new government support program Introduc ed for passage this Session, I believe we have successfully been able to do the following: we've been able to correct the major deficiencies In the old program and we know that they were, using 1980 as the base year, was causing a lot of problems for a number of school divisions.

Having a funding form ula that was based on heavy in creases in enrolment, based on large numbers of students, caused a lot of disparity for our smaller schools and school divisions, so we have moved away from funding just based on large numbers, In order to deal with those inequities. One of the examples there, of course, Is our well-proven by now and very successful Small Schools Program which recognized the special needs of small schools, regardless of the numbers of children they are educating.

One of the other major deficiencies was the fact that there was no equalization program In the old support program, and we have Introduc ed an equalization program that we have impr oved each year so that, In this coming year, we will be distributing $56.8 million which will reduce the range in special levy mill rate on property between the wealthiest and the poorest school divisions. I might add, Mr. Chairman, that had we not introduced the equalization program, I believe that about half of the divisions in the province would be in serious financial difficulty.

We have also brought In a weighted per pupil block grant which helps us deal with the Issue of declining enrolment. One of the other factors that we looked at, Mr. Chairman, was socio-economic factors and the effect of poverty on educating children.

I admit that it is unique for an education system and a Department of Education to admit, I think they all recognize, but not too many of them like to admit that this has a major effect on a child's ability to learn and, I believe, that we are one of the first provinces in Canada to Introduc e a program that we call a compensatory program that had $2 million in it last year, and this year will provide an addition $1 million throughout the Province of Manitoba, specifically to address the large and increasing number of high risk disadvantaged children. Throughout the province, Mr.

Chairman, this Is no longer an Inner city Issue, although it used to be perceived as an inner city Issue, school divisions, rural, northern, right across the province, are reporting to us that they are also having Increasing numbers of high risk children.

Apart from correcting the major deficiencies and dealing with a major Impact on education of children, the socio-economic factors, we've moved In a number of areas of priority and we've moved on computer education where we've expanded our support and our resources on curriculum development, training for teachers, development of software and acquisition of hardware. We are continuing on the, quite successful I think, early identification program, and we are Increasing our support for special needs children, particularly In the area of severely multlhandlcapp ed children, children In institutional care.

We are moving in a significant way on programs for the blind and some Increases in support in programs for the deaf. These are the areas that we moved in that were, and continued to be, top priority areas for the coming year. With the help of school divisions, Mr. Chairman, we were able to maintain board expen ditur es as we predicted.

We were able to maintain programs, maintain staffing and impr ove, in a number of areas where there was the greatest need, and I think that is something that all of Manitobans can take credit for, because that is not happening in other jurisdictions across the land and it has only been achieved here, I think, through the co-operation of trus tees, superintendents and teachers in the Department of Education working

Monday, 10 June, 1815 together: one, to get the best amount of resources that we can; two, to distribute them in the fairest way; and three, to still continue to deal with the high priority needs. All of us, I think, have been prepared to put maintenance of programs as the top priority, and maintenance of existing jobs as the second. Mr.

Chairman, I believe that, as we go through our estimates, we will be demonstrating that we have moved in almost all areas, even though this is a difficult resource year and there are limited resources; that we will have, either by better ma nagement or by reallocation of resources, been able to mai ntain programs and address the high priority needs. School divisions, Mr .

Chairman, were also very pleased at the savings of thousands of dollars, in fact, I think our estimate suggests that school divisions across the province will probably be saving about $2 million because of earlier payout to school divisions by the Department of Education, thus reducing their need to borrow as much money. This Is something we all want to get away from, we simply don't have the luxury these days of spending any more money than we have to on interest rates.

So I think that was an important move that we made where we put money in the budget to pay the money to school divisions more quickly so they would have lt for their programs; but secondly, so they would not have to borrow as much money. In the curriculum field, we are continuing to shift from development and implementation and we're moving our resources, both financial and personal. Resources had been redistributed on about a 60-40 basis - 60 percent for implemenation and about 40 percent for curriculum development.

We're moving a lot in the area of co-operation with the school divisions and curriculum implementation, instead of designing an implementation program that comes from the Department of Education and is laid on the province as a whole. We are going to each Individual school division, finding out what they're Implementing, at what stage they are at, and what help they need, and we're designing joint programs, co operative programs, between school divisions and the Department of Education where we are working together with them on their Implementation program.

Our assessment program this year is going to cover two very important areas, the first one will be the kin dergarten program, and this one has not been formally assessed since it was brought into place. I think it Is very important we know how important our early years are, and lt is very Important that we now take a good look at our kind ergarten program and have an evaluation to see how successful it is and whether or not there are any Im provements that we can make.

We'll also be doing a review of the English program; and the other two that are designated, after the Kindergarten and the English will be, I believe, Science and Math. We have moved to provide support for Heritage Language programs, Mr. Chairman, through grants, through the development of curriculum, and through resource materials.

I must say that I am very proud of a centre that was opened about a couple of months ago that we call the Mu lti-Cultural Resource Centre in the Department of Education. lt Is a part of the library, but it is a very special part and a unique part. lt Is a resource centre for multicultural resources for additional support for curriculum for teachers in the classroom. This is a case where you, with co-operation and sharing, can get very good resources and materials without developing them all yourselves and spending a lot of mo ney.

This centre has some resources going In from us and some staff, but largely we're gathering material from the cultural and ethnic group themselves who are sharing it and volunteering to let us use lt with other groups and organizations that have already prepared material. So it's a case of, by finding out what's there and by sharing and co-operating, we're getting an excellent centre.

I think we already have calls on this, and a number of other areas, from across the countr y where they're finding out tha t we're moving In a very progressive way in a number of areas like this, and the Resource Centre Is one of them. I annou nced a short time ago the Accelerated School Construction Program, and this obviously Is going to be a major thrust of the Department of Education this year. We have more than doubled the money that we're putting into school construct ion. We had 15 million In last year, and we're putting in 37 million this year.

Its priorities are going to be related to the new criteria for building schools, and we're focusing largely on renovation and upgrading of older schools. As we know, Mr. Chairman, the large amount of money in the last decade or so has gone to the building of new schools, something like $300 million over a period of 17 years into construction of new schools, and about $15 million Into renovating and upgrading older schools. So from that figure alone it's clear that we have a lot of catching up to do In the renovation area. We are moving In two other areas that are Important.

One is we're encouraging communi ty use. We are encouraging school divisions to incorporate into their plans some community-use space, and that would be determined by the unique needs of the various communi ties, whether it be day care; in some cases, it might be community kitchens or that kind of thing. That can be determined by the communities, but we're encouraging that. We're not just encouraging, but we're requiring energy con servation measures.

We have a lot of Information now that shows us that, by building In, whether you'r e renovating an addition or building a new school, by building certain elements Into the design that we can save a lot of the heating costs down the road. Since the amount of money for operating the 714 schools across the province runs Into literally millions and millions of dollars, this is clearly an area that we have to move.

So we'll be providing school divisions with criteria that they will be building into their plans, and also holding some workshops and giving them some help and Information on what we should have In the area of energy conservation. The interesting thing about that, Mr. Chairman, is that it isn't the really expensive gadgets or pieces of equipment that saves the money, although there are some of those around. The ones that are really cost saving ventures are the smaller things that can be built in quite easily without a large amount of money.

The Bureau de !'Education Franc;;aise is continuing to develop its curriculum materials for the thr ee 2775

MondaJ, 10 June, 1885 programs, and is working with the Federal Government on a number of projects and proposals that we have before them. I do want to say here that the Bureau is recognized across Canada for the high quality of curriculum materials that it has developed. We have a lot of provinces looking to us and looking at our curriculum in this area. We intend to continue in the area of Child Abuse Prevention Program which we started last year but it's a very important program. We are working this year with the parents.

We have a program going with the Home and School Federation where we are going to send out kids and put on workshops for the parents. This will be a joint program between the Department of Education and the Home and School. So this is an expansion of a program that's very important, but that recognizes that both the parents and the school and the teachers have to work hand in hand when we're dealing with such sensitive issues as child abuse. We've contin ued with our public in volvement activities, and there are a numb er of them.

The library being open to the public is becoming more and more successful and a larger number of the public are recognizing there's a tremendous resource there and are beginning to use it. Our Layman's Guide to The Public Schools Act, by all records - I'm not sure what the numb er is to get a Canadian best seller, but we've way surpassed that. I think we have distri buted last year about 40,000 copies, and we're expecting to distribute about another 15,000 copies this year. MR. C. MANNESS: I asked you for a copy and I never did get one to read. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Oh, my goodness, I'll run right down and get it.

Imagine distributing 55,000 copies to the public, and the Member for Morris was not able to get one. MR. C. MANNESS: I asked about a year ago. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Did you? I'll give you a dozen. MR. C. MANNESS: No, I only want one. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Anyway, it's clear that parents want things like laws affecting their child's education put in simp le, English langua ge that they can understand, and we will be updating that. Frontier School Division, we announced that we would allow the move toward local control where communit ies were ready for it and wanted it.

I have set up a resource team that is presently available to go into those communit ies that wish to move prior to the next election. We had our first education series this year. Its purpose was, of cou rse, to do a better job of informing the public about major educational programs, and I'll have more information on that at a later date. We will be dealing this year, and focusing on inner city education and inner city schools. I will be discussing that at further length, the action that we hope to take there.

I think we all know that's an area and the school division that has the largest concentration of high-risk children, and it has to be recognized in terms of the resources and support that is given to them. The Department of Education previously really only serviced outside of the boundaries of the city limits, so they serviced the rural area and the northern and remote areas.

I understand why that happened probably initia lly, and I think it was largely because the needs were great out there and the rural and remote divisions did not have the numb ers of professional people perhaps that larger urban divisions were able to have. So they needed more help perhaps and more support.

Ho wever, I think it's clear now that really the Department of Education should be servicing the entire province, and when the needs of the inner city are as unique and high as they are in our, and in every inner city dealing with large numbers of high-risk children, we have to move our resources and support to meet those needs. I expect to make some Improvements and changes in our Canadian Studies Programs at all levels, both the public school system and in our colleges. We'll be talking more about those, I think, at a later date. I think, in

summary, Mr. Chairman, we can be proud of our achievements. I think we can be proud of the level of funding, and you have to look at the level of funding we've given the schools and the education system over the three-year period, not just this last year. You have to look at how we have allocated and managed the funds we've had, and I think we've done a better job of using the money that we have had, and eliminating unnecessary activities or programs. We're doing quite a good job, I think, of training and retraining of staff. We've done this in both the Department of Education and in the colleges.

Since this is a trust of the future that other employers are going to have to undertake, it's imp ortant that the Department of Education be one of the frontrunners, I think, in terms of recog nizing the need for and providing training and retraining opportunit ies for staff. We have improved our programs in a number of areas. We have taken initiatives in the top priorities, and I think we've done it during limited resources and without some of the very serious negative things that are going on in other provinces.

We haven't cut back seriously in our education programs; we haven't interfered or controlled board expenditures; we haven't taken over negotiations between divisions and their staff; and we haven't had major layoffs in staff. So our resources have been limited, as have they been in other provinces across the country, and yet we have managed to maintain both our education system and our staffing. I want to go on record as saying thank you to everybody who was so co-operative and participated. lt was a tough job. I think we've done it well.

I think the details, I think probably the major general points that I would like to make in opening up my Estimates, it is a difficult year for us all and I think that we have managed well. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, it's a pleasure once again to enter into the debate and the discussion associated with the Minister and the Department of Education Estimates. Mr. Chairman, when I was reflecting on how I would prepare an opening statement for today's Estimates, 2776

Monday, 10 June, 1185 I thought that it probably would not be wise to move into too many sp

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-4-66a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 4th hansardpdf 66a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b7e0520f653aa3cf1da8a2181e7887b8204c57c2

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).