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March 1, 2017

41st Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcript 2017-Mar-01 (PDF)

L048 - Wed 1 Mar 2017 / Mer 1er mar 2017

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 1 March 2017 Mercredi 1 er mars 2017

Orders of the Day

Supporting Children, Youth and Families Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur le soutien à l’enfance, à la jeunesse et à la famille

Introduction of Visitors

Oral Questions

Energy policies

Forest industry

Energy policies

Infrastructure program funding

Energy policies

Energy policies

Infrastructure program funding

Waste diversion

Energy policies

Senior citizens

Hydro rates

Mercury poisoning

Consumer protection

Hydro rates

Correction of record

Visitors

Correction of record

Introduction of Visitors

Members’ Statements

Property taxation

Tommy Simpson and Larry Costello

Arie Nerman

Larry Garrett

Northern transportation

Blood donation

Walk for homelessness

Religious observances

Business awards

Notice of dissatisfaction

Reports by Committees

Standing Committee on Regulations and Private Bills

Introduction of Bills

Choice for Patients Seeking Addiction Treatment Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 concernant les choix qui s’offrent aux patients à la recherche d’un traitement de la toxicomanie

Petitions

Government services

Employment standards

Nanjing Massacre

School closures

Child care

Dental care

Health care funding

Alzheimer’s disease

Consumer protection

Services for the developmentally disabled

School closures

Orders of the Day

Time allocation

Medical Assistance in Dying Statute Law Amendment Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 modifiant des lois en ce qui concerne l’aide médicale à mourir

Adjournment Debate

Hydro rates

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

Orders of the Day

Supporting Children, Youth and Families Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur le soutien à l’enfance, à la jeunesse et à la famille

Resuming the debate adjourned on February 22, 2017, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 89,

An Act to enact the Child, Youth and Family Services Act, 2017, to amend and repeal the Child and Family Services Act and to make related amendments to other Acts / Projet de loi 89, Loi édictant la Loi de 2017 sur les services à l’enfance, à la jeunesse et à la famille, modifiant et abrogeant la

Loi sur les services à l’enfance et à la famille et apportant des modifications connexes à d’autres lois.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate.

Mrs. Gila Martow: I’ll be sharing my time with my colleague the member for Dufferin–Caledon, who has been a fantastic advocate for children and youth. I know she’s going to continue to be dedicated and involved, even though she recently passed the torch to me. I’m the newly minted critic for children, youth and families for the PC caucus.

It has been over 30 years since this piece of legislation was overhauled. Of course, we’re speaking today on Bill 89, Supporting Children, Youth and Families Act, for anybody who just turned on the channel at home.

It’s really time for an update; I think we all agree. While we might differ on some small parts or wonder how best to implement or fund the system, we’re all in agreement that we want the province of Ontario to promote the protection, best interests and well-being of all our children.

For years, many organizations and stakeholders have pointed to ongoing issues with the child welfare system. The Auditor General has laid out problems with the ministry’s accountability in three separate audits, in 2003, 2008 and 2016. For too long, there have been serious deficiencies in the system which have let our most vulnerable slip through the cracks—and in some cases, even death.

I’m going to mention two, because I really think that their lives were not in vain, even though they were cut so short.

Katelynn Sampson was murdered by two caregivers in their Parkdale apartment on August 3, 2008. When paramedics found her lifeless body, it was covered in 70 gruesome wounds. An autopsy showed she had died of septic shock stemming from her injuries. I think that her name is a name that all of us will carry for the rest of our lives. I think that in her memory, this new bill was drafted.

As well, we remember Jeffrey Baldwin, whose death, also from septic shock, after years of mistreatment by his grandparents, led to significant changes in policy by children’s aid societies in the granting of custody to relatives.

Many advocates for children’s rights believe that our services need to be more child-centred by focusing on the rights and wishes of the child. I think that it’s difficult. It’s difficult sometimes, Mr. Speaker, to engage with a child who has been traumatized. But I think that we can, and we should, do more to speak to the children themselves, and not just to find out their wishes: I don’t think that you get a clear picture of the situation a child is in without even trying to talk to the child.

Children should be encouraged to express their views freely and safely, and their views should be given due weight in accordance with their age and maturity. Children should be consulted on the nature of services they are receiving, and advised on decisions made and informed of these rights.

The bill also attempts to focus on the importance of a child’s or youth’s identity—for example, culture, race, sexual orientation, gender expression, etc.—in how and what services are provided. Many community organizations are raising concerns about what this entails exactly. I am concerned myself that this Liberal government hasn’t done enough to address those communities’ concerns. I would like to see a lot of consultation. I’m hoping to see people make it down to committee, and they can email as well. They don’t have to make it down here in person. People can even phone in.

I’m hoping that before we go to committee, we meet with our community members in our ridings and get their viewpoints.

We all know that this new legislation is attempting to better match our Human Rights Code. We hear oftentimes about human rights. It’s important that our child protection workers are encouraged to have conversations with the children so that they’re better able to successfully place them in our communities.

Youth themselves who were in care were engaged in developing this piece of legislation to better focus on the rights of the child. Child protection workers should have conversations. I think that it’s very important to have those tough conversations, when it’s age-appropriate, in the right circumstances, with the children about their feelings, their background and their interests.

I want to mention that there’s a big problem in our province with mental health wait-lists. It wasn’t something when I was a child that you heard so much talk about, the mental health of children and youth, but I think we’re understanding now that we need to intervene at much younger ages and deal with things, that it’s not just the phase that a child is going through. We need more pediatric psychiatrists, and we need more beds in units for children and adolescents who are in mental health crisis.

We hear that there is some change in the language in the bill. “Crown ward” is being changed to “child in extended society care.” They are removing the term “runaway.” The term “abandoned” is being replaced with “parent not available.” Words are just words sometimes, but they can be powerful in changing the whole dynamic of what we’re referring to. We’re not referring to a child as wanted or not wanted. I’m reminded of the series The Paradise that I think is on Netflix now, where they refer to “foundlings” and “wanted” children versus “not wanted” children.

It’s just horrific when you realize the language that was used not that many decades ago in terms of children in our communities who don’t have proper homes.

Lauren Israel is not the only family law lawyer in Ontario who is worried that there’s not enough money available to address the long waiting list for services for child and youth counselling. She specifically mentioned the lack of psychiatric beds. She would like to see more parenting courses that are culturally and language appropriate, especially for parents in custody or on bail. And there are still a lot of families, she reminded us, who lack proper housing.

There’s a lack of specialized lawyers in legal aid and a lack of Family Court rooms. After all, if you can’t get a courtroom, timelines are useless. I want to say that again, Mr. Speaker: If there are long waiting lists and you can’t get a courtroom, we can pass whatever legislation we want. We can say that a child has to see a pediatric psychiatrist within a month if they’re exhibiting signs of mental health distress, but if there are no spots available, are we really doing what’s in the best interests of the child?

We always talk about the weak link in any chain—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you.

Continue.

Mrs. Gila Martow: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have to say that after three years of talking in the Legislature, I don’t notice it anymore. It’s amazing. We should all be respectful when there are new members in the House and remind ourselves that it’s tough when you first get here, those first few months, to be able to talk over—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I’d rather you heckle me.

Mrs. Gila Martow: Well, heckling for sure—that’s tough—but background conversations as well. I guess we all learn to go into a zone.

Again, Lauren Israel, the family law lawyer I was talking to, wanted us to know that she finds our courts are very sensitive to kids. I asked her if she had any concerns. She said that, really, she finds that the judges speak to the children a lot, that they are very sensitive and consider things such as the child’s age and maturity and the level of understanding, and are also very cognizant of the risks in children’s young lives, what the potential risk is based on their decisions.

She also feels that our social workers are extremely conscientious and really do visit the kids appropriately. She checks up on it in the files, and she feels quite confident that, for the most part—obviously, we all know the social workers have families as well, and medical concerns. There could be times when there’s a bit of a struggle in a specific agency, but she feels that the agencies, certainly that she is working with, are doing a great job.

There’s part of the bill that focuses a little bit on extra-provincial child protection orders. This is an interprovincial project, sometimes, with children. They could have one parent in one province, a parent in another province, or parents have moved and the teenager is acting out because they don’t want to move. We have to be able to coordinate with the other province.

I would ask, again, that the people who are drafting the legislation and looking at amendments consider what’s going on in other jurisdictions so that we’re more in line, so that we’re not having kids on long waiting lists or problems in understanding. Even language has to be well thought out and in line with other provinces.

My next topic is youth justice. There are reasons why youth are not incarcerated with adults, and I think that we all agree with that. Whenever, though, we make legislation there always seems to be unintended consequences. I would ask that we go through every piece of this legislation and we take the time to think of possible unintended consequences.

We wouldn’t want to see, say, a gang where—I think that it’s been discussed in the past in our media that a gang will recruit somebody under the age of 18 to have them do whatever serious crime they’re looking at participating in because they know that that youth will not be charged the same way that they will if they are 18. I think our courts have smartened up to that and take that into consideration, and we do see, sometimes, children under the age of 18 being treated more like adults. I think, again, it talks to our justice system and the judges’ and lawyers’ understanding of the ins and outs of what’s going on.

Society expects us all to help the youth develop the skills they need to reach their potential. We don’t want to incarcerate youth and just have them get out and go back and look for whatever gang they were involved in, or whatever activity they were involved in that put them in there in the first place. We don’t want to have that revolving door in our youth centres. We have to make every effort to ensure that they’re getting the support—emotional support is very important, as well as some kind of training.

I would hope that, in our youth centres—I have never been to any of them, and I have that on my list of things in my new portfolio I would like to do and have a much better understanding of.

But the flip side, if you’re working with difficult youth, is that we have to keep our employees safe. I think that I would like to take a second to offer condolences to the family members of a youth and a worker who died just this past week in Kawartha Lakes, in a fire that seems to have been deliberately set by one of the youth in the group home. These tragedies can happen with kids who aren’t in care. They have a fight with parents, or things can go from bad to worse in a family home. But we certainly have to provide the protection for the workers in the home.

I’m sure that there’s going to be a lot of investigation and, hopefully, maybe from that investigation there may be even amendments put forward for this piece of legislation based on the tragedy that just occurred last week.

When children are being incarcerated or acting out, they often have to use some kind of mechanical restraints to protect not just the workers, but the youth—I don’t want to call them children—themselves. It should never be used as a means of punishment. It should really be used, we understand, for protection—and we all agree; I’m certain about that. There are, outlined in this piece of legislation, the exact circumstances when mechanical restraint equipment can be used. It might change depending on the settings and the circumstances, and we all understand that.

We can’t put ages, because we all understand that you can have a 12-year-old who is stronger and bigger than the workers there, while a 16-year-old might not be.

They are seeking to replace the words “secure isolation” with “secure de-escalation.” We’ve been talking a lot in the Legislature about people being isolated for very long times—months, and even years—in our adult detention centres—jails. But we certainly wouldn’t want to be isolating youth. The whole point is to rehabilitate. How can you possibly do that if they’re locked in a room by themselves?

Another family lawyer that I spoke to is Colin Tobias. His wife is also a lawyer. They wanted to express that they’re very happy to see that we’re expanding the age of protection to include up to the age of 18. But they want to remind the Legislature that kids vote with their feet. We can implement whatever rules we want, but especially with youth, we really have to have them agree to whatever the plan is and to sit down and to have that plan, and not just tell them, “Today we’re doing this, and tomorrow you’re going there, and the next day we’re doing this.”

I know, from my own experience with my teenagers, that nobody likes surprises. We don’t like surprises. We’re not that happy when we show up to debate one bill, and we’re being told by the government, “No, we’ve put that aside. We’re going to be debating another bill today.” You feel a little bit flustered. You feel a little bit anxious if you’re not prepared. But it’s more than that, Mr. Speaker: You feel disrespected sometimes. It’s very important with youth, with teenagers, to ensure that they feel part of that dialogue and part of that discussion, and that they don’t feel disrespected.

I think that a lot of times, we forget our children are growing up. It’s tough for a parent who is used to—I see the pages are all agreeing with me. It’s tough for the parents to realize that their young child is now moving into adulthood and has opinions and interests of their own.

Colin Tobias, the lawyer, told me of a recent case of a kid who turned 16 on a Saturday, and they couldn’t convince him to go into care. They wanted him to go into care before he turned 16, because they knew that then they wouldn’t be able to get him into care. They were able to have that discussion and convince him to go into care for one day on the Friday—just for one day.

They said, “You can get to leave on the Saturday, so it’s just for one day, to go into foster care so that it will be an option for you for the next two years, and if you do decide you want to go into care, that option would be available.” They did convince him to do that, and he went into care for the one day. I guess now he’s on the roster.

I think that’s why we’re seeing the consequences of those situations, and the frustration of social workers. It’s not just about children turning 16 and needing to go into care. They may have needed to go into care when they were 15, and refused. Now, when they’re 16 and a half, they decide they do want to go into care, and they can’t, because they hadn’t been placed before.

What we hear over and over again, from speaking to people who work with youth in the communities, is that education is the way out. I think that’s the answer for every community. That’s the challenge. As people who have experienced life, we understand that education is vital to reaching your full potential, but it’s very hard sometimes to convince teenagers of that.

The suggestion was made to me that they would like to see the high school credit system more of a province-wide high school credit system and more of a seamless system—I marked this down; it’s my words—sort of virtual schooling, with some kind of virtual school board. We see sometimes, for home schooling, that there is sort of a province-wide supervision of children who are home-schooled. So why can’t we do that for children who are struggling or in care, so that they’re not necessarily having to switch school boards if they’re being moved around a lot or if it’s a very complicated situation?

Maybe there could be more of a province-wide school board that can supervise their education and move them more seamlessly so that if they do half a year at one school board and half a year at the other school board, they’re not losing that course credit, because they completed the course, except they did it at two different school boards. It’s not so easy. Sometimes it can be transferrable. It’s not so easy to transfer it. It’s a lot of work, I imagine, for our caseworkers. When we need them out there doing other work, we have them dealing with the school boards.

I’m just throwing that out as something that we can have a discussion about at a later date.

I spoke to a lawyer who works with children—a third lawyer—who mentioned that large foster homes are often in Peel and Durham and that kids are moved between boards suddenly. The specific problem is the special-needs services—that’s the big challenge, the special-needs services and our kids. She said that there are long waits for specialized service classrooms, and that about 80% of kids are involved in the court system and about two thirds of those have educational gaps and need specialized classes.

The crisis, she feels, is the elderly cohort of foster parents who are retiring, and she’d like to see more wiggle room for who can foster a child. I don’t know exactly what her experiences are, but my understanding is that some foster parents feel unable to have more than one child in their home and they’re pressured into taking more children than they want to handle. Oftentimes, parents have sort of complicated schedules that they need to support; and perhaps there are two homes that want to help out for half a year and half a year.

I’m not saying that’s ideal, but I think that if we have such long waits for foster parenting, we really need to do more to get in those communities and ask people what it would take for them to be a foster parent.

A lot of times, people have misconceptions about what’s involved. They think they can never go on vacation. And what happens if they get sick suddenly? Are they stuck? They don’t understand that there is a process to have the children moved temporarily if there are one or two vacations a year—obviously, not somebody who travels a lot.

I just wanted to talk about the Child Protection Information Network, CPIN, which is being implemented—in some agencies, it’s already fully implemented. It has been a big challenge. We’ve heard a lot of discussion in the Legislature about other software—SAMS—and it doesn’t seem that we’re necessarily ensuring that the bugs are worked out. I don’t know who exactly makes the decisions about information technology in the Legislature, but we certainly saw from eHealth that taxpayers’ money was not spent wisely in terms of computers and software, and we didn’t really accomplish anything with the billion dollars in eHealth.

I’m sure that with CPIN we’re making progress, but it seems like there are a lot of flags that have gone up from the agencies. They have to go to the centralized ministry, and they understand why: because they want the problems to be fixed so that in the other agencies the problems are fixed as well. If one agency fixes their IT problems, the other agencies might not know about it if it’s not going to a centralized place. On the other hand, if it’s going to a centralized place, there are complications.

We know CPIN is trying to streamline all the agencies across the province so that there’s better tracking of the children and who is taking care of the children. I think that if we have a better system in place, it would be of huge benefit to the challenges we have in our community with human trafficking of youth in the sex industry. So we have to do everything we can to ensure that the process goes faster and more effectively.

We are hearing a lot of concerns about CAS amalgamations. In this new piece of legislation, we give a lot of power to the ministry and the minister in terms of forcing some amalgamations and what that would mean in our communities. Again, I would like decisions to be made. Obviously, there are efficiencies and monetary concerns. Specifically, now that we’re increasing the age of care to 18, there are a lot of monetary concerns. I think that, again, we have to be making these decisions in the best interests of the children, the youth, the care workers and the foster parents.

Everybody really needs to be considered when we’re making these types of decisions. We certainly don’t want to fix one problem and see that we’ve created way more.

I want to mention access centres for children. I didn’t specifically see anything addressed in the Legislation about access centres, but I understand that they really don’t have much space available evenings and weekends. For people who aren’t aware, these are centres where parents can go and have visits with their children, if they have visitation rights, but they have to be supervised. They have to have an appointment; they don’t just drop in. Obviously, their child has to be brought there.

Obviously it’s challenging for a foster home to have to bring the child on an evening or weekend, but the child is in school during the week. The parents have work, possibly, during the week. I would like to see more of a community discussion on maybe creative solutions to access centres.

We have an eye centre up north where they go with a clinic. It’s mobile. They have a mobile eye clinic going to northern communities. We hear of mobile libraries that used to go around to communities before they had Internet and e-books. I’m wondering if maybe that’s one solution that I’m going to throw out there, that maybe we need mobile access centres that could move around and provide supervision in different locations and be more accessible. That’s why it’s called “access centres”; it’s supposed to be accessible.

I just want to mention the Ontario Indigenous Children and Youth Strategy, which is a big part of the discussion of this legislation. We’re repealing the terms “Indian” and “native” and replacing them with “First Nations, Inuk or Métis.” They want to improve the reporting about services provided to our indigenous people. We have a very unique relationship here in Ontario, and I think that there’s talk of having more agencies and more training in the indigenous communities themselves to manage their child welfare concerns. We have to consider all the impacts on those communities, those children and those families.

Jordan’s Principle is about Jordan River Anderson, who was an indigenous child who died in a hospital, born with multiple medical problems. The reason he had to die in hospital and not go home and receive home care—he did have a home to go to—is because apparently the governments in 2005 were arguing over who should pay for his at-home care. That’s a tragedy, and that has been a focus of this piece of legislation as well as others: How do we ensure that we streamline things and have things more efficient and do what’s in the best interests of the child and not necessarily fight between different ministries and different agencies in exactly the same province?

I want to summarize a bit by saying that the PC caucus and I intend to support Bill 89, but we’re looking forward to proposing some amendments in the committee and hearing all of the input from the communities. Bill 89 will, of course, increase that age of protection to include 16- and 17-year-olds.

We’re hoping we will see some good data collection and better accountability and effectiveness of service, and revise the rules around adoption and licensing of children’s residences. We feel confident that Bill 89 will not prevent any parent from adopting or maintaining custody of a child so long as those parents provide or can provide the care, support and safety that the child deserves.

This bill comes after many organizations and stakeholders have shown that the current system is failing many of Ontario’s children. It also marks the potential to replace the 32-year-old piece of legislation and ongoing problems that still mean that children often slip through the cracks.

To be fair, we don’t hear about all the good stories, and there are tens of thousands of them. There are fantastic foster parents. The care workers, as I’ve said, are working very hard. Unfortunately, those don’t make it into the newspaper headlines.

We want to see more clarification about when the ministry can remove children’s aid society board members, appoint supervisors to take over societies and even force amalgamations of societies. We all know that a clear process will give both the agencies and the families some clarity on how they can expect to follow through. If you have a concern with a child protection agency, what are the exact steps that you should be taking before the ministry would take over?

We’re particularly supportive of increasing the age. We think that aging care to 18 would go a long way to fighting human trafficking. We have to ask: Where is the money going to come from? We understand that children—this is what I was told by the ministry staff—won’t be forced into care to the extent that they are before 16. They’ll be given the option not to go into care but still have monetary support by the province. I think when they told me that, they were kind of hoping that not that many children who are 16 and 17 will want to go into care.

I would suggest that I think a lot of children will want to go into care if they hear that’s the standard. Children and youth tend to often do what their peers are doing. If they hear that most 17-year-olds who don’t have a home are going into the care system, then they will be more willing to go into the care system. So it might take a while until we get the numbers up.

I want to mention my colleague the member for Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock, who worked so tirelessly to prevent our vulnerable youth from becoming victims in the skyrocketing trade of humans for sex. It really is a modern-day form of slavery.

My PC caucus colleagues and I will do our best to ensure that this legislation protects children and ensures they are provided with the services they deserve.

I just want to mention a couple of things. I was taught by my late mother that there are no bad kids. We won’t say there are no parents who aren’t adequate for taking care of children, but a lot of times it’s just a bad match, and it’s just not the right child for the right parent.

I spent a lot of time, and I still do, with many teenagers in my community because they want to volunteer for community service hours or they are interested in politics. Their parents are always like, “You spend days with my child. How can you stand them? They’re so sarcastic; they’re so rude; they’re so grumpy.” I just always feel that maybe we need to have a program in place where we trade each other’s teenagers, because I find everybody’s teenagers wonderful. Mine can be grumpy sometimes.

It is an interesting scenario sometimes—and to do better education, I would point out, of our own children in the school system: not just parenting classes or home economics classes or things like that, but to really have those discussions with kids about anger management, that there may be a time in your life where you experience anger, where you’re literally seeing red, and to count to 10 and to learn how to deal with that.

I’m going to pass the rest of my time to my colleague the member from Dufferin–Caledon. I look forward to hearing what she has to say.

I would remind everybody that it takes a village to raise a child.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Dufferin–Caledon.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Thank you to the member from Thornhill. For someone who has just taken over the file in, I think, the last two weeks, clearly she has a very good handle on what needs to be updated and some of the issues that the minister and the government are facing.

There are a few things. The advantage of being the second lead is that we’ve already heard from the minister and the parliamentary assistant on this issue. There was one frankly disturbing comment made by the parliamentary assistant that I would love, in the two-minute response, for her to clarify and expand upon.

From Hansard on February 22, the comment was made: “We hope that through consultation with societies and communities, there will be voluntary restructuring to improve services to children, youth and their families.”

If the goal is to improve the child protection system in Ontario, then I believe that sentence needs a lot more meat on the bone. Please explain to me how making child protection agencies larger, how amalgamating them so that individual communities no longer have what we’ll volunteer CAS boards participating—when we take that away, how does that make child protection agencies and child protection in the province of Ontario better? It really struck me when she said that in her opening remarks, and I would love to have some clarification.

Frankly, I think this bill is about the larger issue. We have, in the province of Ontario, ministerial directives; I call them “thou shalts.” “Thou shalt do the following.” The Minister of Children and Youth Services will issue a directive. It will go to every—in most cases, they’re called children’s aid societies, but for the interest of consistency, call them child protection agencies. It says, “Thou shalt”—I’ll use an example—“contact a family or open a file within 12 hours of receiving a phone call on a child of concern.” “Thou shalt.”

We also have a “thou shalt” in the province of Ontario that no child protection agency can pass a budget that is going to be in a deficit. I’m not sure about this government, but it’s pretty challenging to figure out how many child protection calls you’re going to get in any fiscal year.

We put all of these very stringent limitations on child protection agencies, and yet we also don’t acknowledge that it is a system that is fraught with issues.

Now, to suggest that the issue is “we must amalgamate,” to me, is such a false argument. For her to open that door with her opening remarks is very concerning to me. All it did was raise a whole bunch more of issues and concerns with child protection agencies—volunteer boards—who are sitting there, trying to do the best job that they can do with all of the directives and the “thou shalts” that already exist.

Back to Bill 89: Let’s talk about CPIN for a minute. CPIN, of course, came about as a result of one of the many, unfortunately, coroners’ reports and inquests into children who have passed away in the province of Ontario—unnecessarily, I would add.

CPIN’s goal, CPIN’s idea, is that every child, every individual, every person who has any kind of interaction with a child protection agency will be entered. The goal is that another agency who is also looking at that child—because to my colleague’s point, we move, people move, children move around—another child protection agency can enter that child’s name and go, “Oh, they’ve already had an interaction with ABC child protection.” The problem is that there’s no date stamp on when the individual file was accessed, or by whom.

You actually have a situation where very, very private, personal, detailed information is in CPIN, and too many people can access it, and, more concerning, whoever accesses it is not checked. So I can’t pull up my file and say, “The following four individuals from three different agencies in the province of Ontario have accessed my file.” That is a problem. We have to solve the glitches—to be kind—that are occurring in CPIN as we expand it province-wide.

There’s no argument, I don’t believe, in the value of having a central database. The problem is, if you’re going to have a central database, can you please make sure that it protects the people that you purport to protect?

Bill 89: For some time—well, 32 years, actually—this legislation has not been updated. I’m actually pleased that we’re finally getting into some amendments and some updating. Some of the language is being changed, which is a positive thing.

The simple, tragic and unfortunate reason for why we need to reform the child welfare system is because of Katelynn Sampson and Jeffrey Baldwin and the coroners’ inquests that followed.

The shocking and tragic death of Katelynn in 2008 drives home to me why we need to get this legislation right and that the details matter. The coroner’s inquest into the death of Katelynn Sampson provided 54 recommendations to the Minister of Children and Youth Services alone, and 173 recommendations in total. The simple number of recommendations from the inquest indicates how much work there is to be done. For too long, there have been serious deficiencies in the system which have let our most vulnerable slip through the cracks. The knowledge that we need to do better grounds my support for this bill.

We certainly need to protect children from deadly or bodily harm, but we also have to consider the outcomes for children, their families and their communities. A common concern I hear regarding children who have been engaged with the child welfare system is the quality of their life during and after the time they enter child protection, mental health services or other services that the Ministry of Children and Youth Services provides.

According to the Ontario Association of Children’s Aid Societies, only 44% of former foster children graduate from high school, compared to 81% for the general population. Almost half of the estimated 8,000 Canadian youth experiencing homelessness this year lived in foster care or a group home. We need to do better.

According to a study from Michelle Patterson from Simon Fraser University, “Studies of youth ‘aging out’ of the foster care system indicate between 11% and 36% experience street homelessness and approximately one third live with family, friends or acquaintances because they cannot afford permanent housing.”

As we debate this legislation and hear from witnesses in committee, it is essential that we consider how the proposed legislation will impact children and how it will improve their lives during and after when they are in the child welfare system. I support Bill 89 and its attempts to ensure child safety. After 32 years, it’s time. There are some important changes in this legislation, and I hope they will make significant differences for the safety and support of children in Ontario.

The most reported measure in the legislation is the expansion of the age of protection to include 16- and 17-year-olds. The expansion of the age of protection for these children has been widely advocated for by politicians, advocates, service providers and children themselves. In my discussions since the legislation was introduced, the concept of expanding the age of protection has received widespread if not unanimous support.

Over the years, service providers have expressed serious concern about the lack of protection for 16- and 17-year-olds. Too often, these service providers are not able to help a child, who is clearly in need of assistance, because the act does not allow a child protection agency to make a temporary care agreement with children aged 16 or 17. The alternative for many of these children who need CAS protection could be staying in a dangerous or abusive situation, or running away and homelessness. The numbers prove that out.

Age should not be a determining factor for a child receiving a service which will help them achieve their potential. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child defines a child to include every human being below the age of 18. Providing services to a child to age 15 does not make sense when we know that people aged 16 and 17 are not only children, but they are also vulnerable to abuse by caregivers. We also know the ages of 16 and 17 are particularly important for development and times of great change for children. It seems prudent to ensure those kids receive the same support as their peers.

Under the current system, children are slipping through the cracks simply because of their age. In some cases, service providers are aware of a need to protect the child but are not allowed to act, because the individual is 16 or 17, unless they are already in care. Rather than another tragic example of a child not being recognized by the child welfare system as needing assistance, these instances are where service providers know of a child who needs help but the current legislative system means they cannot receive the help they need. The proposed legislation would address this discrepancy by requiring a children’s aid society to protect children aged 16 and 17.

One potential positive that this part of the legislation may bring is an added lever for the province of Ontario to combat human trafficking. Human trafficking is a heinous crime where victims, mostly women and children, are forced to provide labour or sexual services through coercion, all for the direct profit of their traffickers.

Human trafficking affects children in every walk of life, but according to the RCMP’s 2013 report, Domestic Human Trafficking for Sexual Exploitation in Canada, individuals are most susceptible to traffickers when they need financial support or desire love and affection. The RCMP’s report also indicates that many victims are runaways from group homes or their primary caregiver’s residence.

The RCMP report also points to a growing trend of youth being recruited from group homes. I want to repeat that: Kids in group homes, under the care of the province of Ontario, are being recruited by human traffickers. We have to do better.

Mental health disorders are also exploited by human traffickers. Specifically, the RCMP points to attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD; fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, or FASD; and learning disability as mental health issues which make children more vulnerable to human trafficking. The ability for a CAS to protect children aged 16 and 17 at risk or currently being trafficked is a positive element of this legislation.

Speaker, I’m sure that you are aware of the great work of my colleague the member from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock, and her advocacy on the issue of human trafficking in Ontario. I sat on the Select Committee on Sexual Violence and Harassment with the member, and Ms. Scott—Laurie—truly led the charge for the select committee recognizing the significant problem of human trafficking in Ontario and sharing some surprising and disturbing facts that many in the public are not aware of.

While we assume that human trafficking is more commonly associated with foreign victims crossing international borders, in fact, the committee revealed that over 90% of the victims in Canada are trafficked domestically. Shockingly, the province of Ontario is home to 65% of the human trafficking cases reported in Canada. Between 2007 and 2013, 75% of the 78 human trafficking charges laid in Ontario occurred in the GTA. Only 10% of the charges occurred outside the GTA and the Golden Horseshoe.

I think this is an important time to remember that Ontario is actually the only province left in Canada that does not protect children up to 18. I would suggest to you that there is a cause and effect that is happening on the human trafficking side. If 65% of the human trafficking cases Canada-wide are in Ontario, and we’re the only ones who aren’t protecting children up to the age of 18, methinks there is a problem.

The select committee recommended that “the Ontario government provide resources for the development of a coordinated approach to help victims of human trafficking, allowing providers of support services and the criminal justice system to share information and work collaboratively,” and that “the Ontario government develop a multi-ministerial, province-wide strategy on human trafficking.”

While the ability of child protection agencies to protect children aged 16 and 17 may help service providers keep young girls safe, there is still work that needs to be done to help stop this crime from occurring. Overall, there has been widespread and long-term support of expanding the age of protection. Even the ministry’s own 2015 review of the CFSA indicated that they had received 10,000 signatures on a petition to raise the age of protection to 18. The ministry was aware of the broad support and widespread calls for this change to be initiated. The government, however, seems to have neglected several legislative opportunities to take this necessary step.

You may recall that the Progressive Conservative caucus has had two separate private member’s bills calling for the expansion of the age of protection to include 16- and 17-year-olds. Former Barrie MPP Rod Jackson’s Bill 88 proposed allowing temporary care agreements to be made with children aged 16 and 17. Rod Jackson’s advocacy on this issue put the troubling scenario of children aged 16 and 17 being turned away from service into the spotlight and provided a straightforward solution, which all three parties supported.

Mr. Jackson’s advocacy on this issue led to him being presented with the annual Youth Legal Services Award. The award is given to an individual who has provided an outstanding contribution to the lives of street-involved youth, both by supporting the Street Youth Legal Services program and by acting as a motivator and leader in reducing youth homelessness.

While Bill 88 did not receive royal assent, his proposed legislation helped pave the way for the proposed legislation, Bill 89, which we are debating today, so my congratulations to Rod Jackson for his work and advocacy finally being adopted. While private member’s bills often get stuck in committee despite having support from all three parties, it’s a victory when an individual’s solution to a problem is put into legislation. Well done, Rod.

More recently, the member from Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry proposed similar legislation in Bill 32, the Right to Care Act, in 2016. So the government has had two separate opportunities in the last four years to address what many saw as an obvious gap in child care. MPP Rod Jackson’s Bill 88 was sent to third reading. I’ll just say that four years ago we could have done this. Well done for finally getting there, four years later. By creating a legislative mandate to protect these children, it is my hope that it will create another lever for the government to address the heinous crime of human trafficking.

To recap: The expansion of the age of protection to 18 has had all-party support for some time. It was widely supported by advocates and service providers, and can provide a series of positive repercussions on vulnerable children, including protecting children from human trafficking.

But it took 14 years for this government to get around to making the necessary changes. This begs the question: What took so long? The government has had 14 years in office and two private members’ bills to make this widely called-for and necessary change. It’s a shame that the change is only coming before us now.

Service providers support the move because when a child slips through the cracks of child protection, it can be felt in other areas of the child welfare system. I’ll give you an example.

I was approached by an individual who told me a story. Two girls who clearly had issues were in a home. The one child was 16; the other child was eight. Now, there’s a thing that happens in the late teenage years, and that thing, as my colleague from Thornhill mentioned, is that they start to assert themselves more. Trust me, Speaker. I have two teenagers; I know whereof I speak.

The 16-year-old said, “Enough is enough. This is not right, what’s happening in my home, in my family, and I’m going to make it better for my sister, because I’m about to leave. I’m out of here soon.”

So she told a trusted teacher. The trusted teacher called the children’s aid society. The children’s aid society opened an investigation. They said, “Yes, in fact, there is an issue in this family and we must deal with it.” What did they do, Speaker? They took the eight-year-old and put the eight-year-old in care. That child is now getting assistance; there’s now going to be some help.

Guess what happened to the 16-year-old, Speaker? Nothing. So now that child is actually in more danger. The pressure points and the issues that were happening in the family have just been blown apart, because now they know someone blew the whistle, and that 16-year-old became far more at risk.

So what does the 16-year-old do? The 16-year-old doesn’t have the option of going into the child protection system, so the 16-year-old is faced with, “Do I stay in a home that is hurting me, that is dysfunctional? Or do I choose homelessness? Do I choose the street?”

That’s what we’re doing by not making these changes. That is a true story provided to me from a worker. So we can’t sit around and delay this. We have to get moving, because children’s lives are in the balance.

The government needs to seriously consider how the expansion of the age of protection will affect the abilities of children’s aid societies to provide effective service. I’m sure the last thing this government wants is to seek to protect more children, only to spread the current resources too thin, leaving vulnerable children without the help they need.

To add to the concern about ensuring effective service, it appears that concerns about the funding model of the CASs across the province is boiling over in several labour disputes. The minister would be aware that between September 18 and December 15 of last year, 435 front-line, administrative and support staff at Peel Children’s Aid went on strike. The strike was, according to the numbers provided by the Ministry of Labour collective bargaining information services list, the largest number of person-days lost since the ministry started tracking strikes at children’s aid societies. It was also the largest strike in terms of the number of employees involved.

Now, of course, we are aware that 140 workers are locked out at the Nipissing and Parry Sound children’s aid society.

If there is a growing trend of labour disputes at children’s aid societies, the minister must be concerned and be advocating to deal with the financial pressures of children’s aid societies across the province, because you are expanding their mandate. After all, the resulting labour disputes have the potential to have our most vulnerable children slip through the cracks yet again.

I believe the government needs to seriously consider making an appropriate funding allocation, along with the expansion of the age of protection to 16 and 17, so we can ensure that children who need protection receive it.

I think it’s important to note that, while we’re talking about protecting and expanding 16 to 17, there is no one in the province of Ontario who has yet to actually give me what kind of numbers that could involve. How much of an expansion are we talking about? Is it 1,000 children? Is it 5,000 children? Is it 10,000 children? If the ministry can’t answer that question, then you are going to have a very challenging time funding and dealing with the children’s aid societies, who, back to the directives and “thou shalts”—“Thou shalt now be responsible for this additional responsibility.”

Another example of where the government has not taken action can be seen in the recent Auditor General’s report on children and youth mental health. The auditor found that, despite concerns being articulated in 2003 about the oversight of the children and youth mental health program, the ministry still does not “monitor and effectively administer this program to ensure that children and youth in need of mental health services are provided with timely, appropriate and effective mental health services, and to ensure that mental health services are delivered efficiently.” This is on top of a 50% increase since 2008-09 of hospitalization for mental health problems.

Guess what happens when children don’t get service? Guess what happens when treatment is not in place, when wait-lists are your option? When you go into crisis, you get hospitalized—a 50% increase since 2008-09 of hospitalizations for mental health problems.

The auditor recommended that the ministry should define program requirements and monitor whether children and youth mental health agencies are delivering mental health services according to ministry requirements.

The auditor also recommended that the ministry should establish accountability agreements that clearly describe the responsibilities of both the ministry and the lead child and youth mental health agencies.

Part III of the legislation has many provisions that allow the ministry to do what the auditor proposed. Good. It requires a society to enter into an accountability agreement with the minister as a condition of receiving funding. I want to remind people that children’s aid societies in the province of Ontario cannot pass a deficit budget. So there are controls. What you need to do, now that you’ve told them what you want them to do, is that now you have to properly fund it.

It also provides the ministry the authority to request the collection of information. If you don’t measure a problem, you don’t know there’s a problem and you can’t fix it. Children are falling through the cracks because we don’t know who they are, where they are or what they need. This begs the question: How many more children are we going to be able to assist when we expand that age from the current age-out at 16 to 18?

We are left with a similar question to the one surrounding expanding the age of protection: What took you so long? The Auditor General pointed, nearly 14 years ago, to the failure of effectively overseeing youth mental health dollars. Only now does it appear that the government is providing itself the levers or the desire to start tracking the services it provides.

If you take a look at the information provided by Children’s Mental Health Ontario, the need to ensure that children are receiving care is obvious. According to CMHO, children in the Ottawa region are waiting on average 575 days for counselling and therapy. That’s a year and a half. That’s insane. When you consider the rapidity of a child’s development and the changing needs and mind, the notion of waiting 575 days is shocking.

I’m even more frustrated by the lack of progress in assisting our young people when I think about the 18 months I spent on the Select Committee on Mental Health and Addictions. We presented 23 recommendations with all-party support seven years ago; yet, here we are: a 50% increase in hospitalization. Clearly there was a problem, clearly we gave some solutions that had all-party support, and we’re still waiting.

There seems to be a trend emerging where the solutions with broad support that could make serious benefits to children’s lives are not acted upon. I hope that the government takes the new powers the legislation gives to start effectively tracking the services it provides to ensure that its funding and services are what children need.

I’ve heard concerns from individuals about the powers given to the minister under

part III of the legislation. My colleague from Thornhill covered a lot of this. I think what I really want to reinforce is a couple of things.

The expansion to 16- and 17-year-olds is a good thing. Get on with it. Make sure you fund it appropriately. Don’t ignore the treatment that needs to happen on the children and mental health side, because we have waiting lists all across the province. I happened to highlight one in Ottawa, but I can give you examples in the north, in Niagara, in London. They’re all, frankly, horrendous. These are children who—when you actually treat them as the illnesses are emerging, you can make a real difference and move forward in their lives.

If you let it fester, if you let it lead, if—God forbid—you let it age out and they have to go to an adult mental health waiting list, then we’ve only exacerbated the problem. So we really need to deal with that.

Again, children’s aid societies—and I’ll go back to my original opening comment: You are encouraging children’s aid societies to amalgamate. But you don’t say why. You don’t explain how that makes better child protection in the province of Ontario. In fact, I would argue it’s quite the opposite. What you’re doing is, you’re taking the community away from the child protection agency.

If I can brag for a minute, I have a relatively small child protection agency—one of the largest and one of the smallest. They’re both very effective because they are community-led. We have volunteers who are sitting on those boards, and the only reason they’re doing it, trust me, is not for free coffee. It’s because they want to make a difference in the lives of children in our community.

I hope that in the two-minute response, we get some kind of explanation as to why you think amalgamation is the be-all solution for this problem, because I don’t think it is. I think you need to properly fund and allow communities to do what they do best, which is help their most vulnerable.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Miss Monique Taylor: I’d like to congratulate the member from Thornhill, who is the new critic to children and youth services, on her half-hour portion of this debate, and then the member from Dufferin–Caledon, the previous critic, and her thoughtful

interpretation of Bill 89, Supporting Children, Youth and Families Act.

It’s an intensive 300-page bill, so there’s a lot in this. It’s not often that we change an entire act. We’re pleased to see that this is before us, but we understand the concerns. A few of those same concerns that I’m noting, I also heard within the PC lead. We heard things about “thou shalt.” Well, within this bill, there are so many “mays” instead of “thou shalt,” they’re concerning to us.

The members talked about CPIN and the concerns that are happening there. It’s a real fact that there’s a deficit in the funding when it comes to children’s aid societies regarding the CPIN information. Children’s aid societies were not given nearly enough dollars to make sure that the implementation went smoothly. They’re way over budget on the CPIN, yet they’re still facing difficulties. I’ve heard stories that when they’re punching children in that they know for sure are there, those children are not in the system.

We have missing people in the Child Protection Information Network. We have a very intense procedure for being able to get to the information that they’re actually looking for, and that is just causing more burden on the children’s aid society workers who are already completely overworked, with less resources.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: I would like to thank the member from Thornhill, the member from Dufferin–Caledon and the member from Hamilton Mountain for their comments today. Two minutes isn’t a long time. I’m going to try and get through a few points that I think are very necessary at this time.

The changes to the children’s aid societies are absolutely going to be transformational. We know that the public expects the best for our children’s aid societies and those that offer protection to children and youth. That is why this proposed legislation is going to strengthen the ministry’s ability to hold children’s aid services accountable for the service they provide, and for the management of the funds. That is critical.

The legislation will also give the minister the authority to appoint or replace a minority of board members, including the chair, and to appoint a supervisor temporarily to operate and manage a society where it is deemed appropriate.

But, Speaker, let me be clear. Absolutely no decisions have been made on society amalgamations at this time. We know that amalgamations can support more consistent service delivery and access to high-quality care. Societies that have chosen to voluntarily amalgamate have improved the delivery of services and the quality of services to families. They have improved their governance and they are now better serving all regions in the province.

The proposed legislation would give the minister the authority to compel two or more children’s aid societies to amalgamate where it is in the public interest to do so. However, we do recognize that amalgamations are a very complicated exercise, and our government is committed to a thoughtful and consultative approach.

I do want to also acknowledge and congratulate the member from Thornhill for an excellent job this morning on her 30 minutes. She’s captured lots of the relevant points in the bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Harris: I will concur with my colleague across the aisle. I would also like to congratulate both our colleagues here, the members for Thornhill and Dufferin–Caledon, on an excellent one-hour leadoff on Bill 89, the Supporting Children, Youth and Families Act.

Speaker, of course when we’re talking about families, children and CASs, I want to get out quickly an issue that was brought to me by a constituent when it comes to adoption. There has been a program in place now for some time. I believe it’s to encourage families to not just foster but then to adopt. There is a case where a family adopted siblings from a mother that the CAS was involved with. The rules state that the income threshold for targeted subsidies is based on the average income of a two-parent family with children in 2011.

So there’s the potential for a third sibling to be put up for adoption, and this family, of course, wants to keep the children together; the CAS does as well. But as soon as they exceed the $93,700, they’re completely ineligible for this funding. I did write the minister a letter on this. I had a chance to speak to him again last night about it. I think it’s important that they look at this to allow for—you know, the minute he makes $93,800, they’re completely cut off. Of course, we want to keep these children together.

I may have an opportunity to get more into his letter in the next two-minute go-round, because I know I’ll have, hopefully, an opportunity to do my 10 or 20 minutes on this particular bill.

But I want to thank my colleagues for an excellent job this morning. We look forward to further debate.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Mantha: I want to thank the members from Thornhill and Dufferin–Caledon as well, who brought some very thoughtful discussions here this morning, particularly the last member who closed on her remarks. You really care about this issue. That definitely came out in the words and your comments that you brought out this morning.

That brings me to looking forward to—this morning, I was hoping to start hearing some of the comments from our member, the member from Hamilton Mountain. I know she’s been a huge, huge advocate on these issues. I’m looking to learn from her in looking at further debate on this particular bill.

Mr. Speaker, let’s not kid ourselves: This is a big bill. It’s going to require a lot of discussion. We’ve had some systematic problems within the children’s aid society for far too long. Many of our children have been falling through the gaps. It’s not by a want or a will. It’s just by having those services that have not been appropriate—and the funding levels for these individuals who have the care, who have a conscience, who are trying their best to bring in the service for these kids in their care.

There’s a big component out of this bill that I’m going to be looking forward to, because many of my First Nations—across my riding, I have 21 of them. A lot of them are looking to step forward to getting the care under their own umbrella for their community members, because who better to care for First Nations kids, respecting their traditions, their culture, their way of learning and their language? They’ve been at this for well over 25 years.

This is a bill that we got on December 8, just last year, and here we are. It’s going to take a lot of discussion in order to get this through and to get it right. I look forward to having the debate with members from all sides of this room.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Thornhill has two minutes.

Mrs. Gila Martow: I want to thank my colleague the member for Dufferin–Caledon, the member for Hamilton Mountain, and the members for Kitchener–Conestoga and Algoma–Manitoulin for their comments.

I want to just touch on a couple of quick things. One is that I mentioned many of the family lawyers that I had spoken to, and there seemed to be a consensus that there was a problem with CPIN in terms of being able to search within documents.

We all know that one of the key points of having a computerized system is so that you can do multiple searches, not just one search; you can do all kinds of complicated searches. For example, in medical records, you could search a medication. If there’s a problem with a batch of medication, search for a medication. It goes through everybody’s file and it prints out everybody’s name who is on that medication. You can imagine what kind of time it would take to go through paper charts looking for that kind of information.

The lawyers say that, yes, they can get a printed copy of a chart, but it’s very repetitive because of the way it’s designed. It doesn’t have a system in place to erase stuff that’s repeating the same page or paragraph or box that it was in. They can’t search within a document. They can’t search for a keyword or a certain name. They could get pages and pages for a child’s document, and they have to read through it if they want to find something. That’s really redundant and a waste of everybody’s time, especially if the lawyers are charging a client, or they’re legal aid lawyers and they’re charging the taxpayer.

I would like to see some huge improvements in terms of the searchability of CPIN.

We had 165,000 referrals in Ontario to our aid societies in 2015-16. That number is rising. It’s unfortunate, Mr. Speaker.

We need to ensure that our children are safe as much as possible.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): It being 10:15, this House stands recessed until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1013 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

Mr. Monte McNaughton: I see, in the members’ gallery, Louis Roesch from Chatham-Kent. I’d like to welcome Louis to Queen’s Park. He is from the OFA and a business person in Chatham-Kent. Welcome.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: I have two guests up from the University of Windsor today. Professor Brian E. Brown and Dr. Jamey Essex are over here. Welcome again to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Speaker, I know there are number of folks from the OFA here today, but I want to make special mention of Bruce Buttar from the riding of Northumberland–Quinte West. Welcome, Bruce, along with all your friends.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I’d like to welcome to the members’ gallery today Philip Menecola. He is a third-year Ryerson University politics and governance student who is on placement in my office until the end of March. Welcome, Philip.

Miss Monique Taylor: I had the privilege of speaking with the Dietitians of Canada this morning. I would like to welcome some dietitians from Hamilton. We have Wendy Gamblen and Michele MacDonald Werstuck. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Peter Z. Milczyn: I’d like to welcome to the Legislature, from the beautiful community of Leamington, my OLIP intern, Hannah Iles.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: We have Dr. April James from Nipissing University here today, with the Ontario Confederation of University Faculty Associations.

Mr. John Vanthof: I’d also like to welcome my friends from the OFA, particularly a close personal friend, Peggy Brekveld.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I’d like to introduce all of CanWEA here today and also welcome the president of CanWEA, Robert Hornung. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mrs. Gila Martow: I’m very happy to welcome the mother of page captain Kyra Labonte. Her mother, Melanie Filotas, is in the public gallery this morning.

Ms. Jennifer K. French: I am pleased to welcome guests of page captain Jack Ryan today from Oshawa. His mother, Jane Ryan, joins us, and his nana, Anne Marie Beattie. Welcome to the Legislature.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I would like to give a big welcome to all the members of OCUFA, the Ontario Confederation of University Faculty Associations. It’s a great bunch of people doing great work instructing and researching and doing all the good stuff in our universities.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Please join me in welcoming representatives from the OFA: Keith Currie, president of zone 13, which is Peel, Simcoe and York; Bruce Buttar, director of zone 12, which is Hastings, Lennox and Addington, Northumberland and Prince Edward county; and Louis Roesch, director, zone 1, Essex and Kent. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: The Canadian Federation of Students are with us today as well. I have four introductions from down my way: Ronald D’Aguilar, Youshaa El-Abed, Danjel Popaj and Justine De Jaegher. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: I’d like to welcome to Queen’s Park the Dietitians of Canada, including regional executive director Jennifer Buccino and government relations coordinator Leslie Whittington-Carter, as well as other dietitian members of the association.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: I’d like to welcome to the Legislature today the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, including Drew Spoelstra from Niagara Peninsula.

Mr. Bob Delaney: On behalf of the member from Mississauga South, I would like to recognize guests of page captain Connor Ludwig today. His parents, Sue and Michael Ludwig, are in the public gallery this morning.

Also, join me in welcoming all of our friends from the Canadian Wind Energy Association, particularly president Robert Hornung, whom I had the opportunity to speak with earlier.

Mr. Norm Miller: I would like to welcome, from the Ontario Confederation of University Faculty Association who I met with today, Dr. Henry Hornstein from Algoma University, Dr. Gautam Das from Lakehead University, Dr. Brian Ross from the Northern Ontario School of Medicine, Dr. April James from Nipissing University and executive director Dr. Mark Rosenfeld from OCUFA. Welcome to Queen’s Park today.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Trinity–Spadina.

Mr. John Fraser: Thank you, Speaker. I’d like to welcome—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Trinity–Spadina.

Interjections.

Mr. Han Dong: Sorry, Speaker, I didn’t hear you. I would like to also welcome the Ontario Confederation of University Faculty Associations to Queen’s Park today. I encourage all members to join them at their reception in committee rooms 228 and 230 between 4:30 and 6 o’clock this evening.

Mr. John Fraser: I’d like to welcome the Dietitians of Canada, who are here this morning. We got to join for breakfast. There’s Leslie Whittington-Carter, Jennifer Buccino, Angela Cuddy, Marilee Stickles-White and Wendy Gamblen.

Hon. Jeff Leal: I would like to thank President Keith Currie, the president of OFA, and to take a moment to thank the OFA for their delicious breakfast this morning at the Legislature and all the great work they do for Ontario’s agri-food sector. There are five OFA board members sitting in the members’ gallery this morning that I would like to recognize: Louis Roesch, Bruce Buttar, Peggy Brekveld, Larry Davis and Réjean Pommainville. We welcome them to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Granville Anderson: I would like to welcome Mikael Eklund, who is an associate professor at the University of Ontario Institute of Technology. Welcome.

Mr. Grant Crack: It’s a great pleasure for me to also welcome the members of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture who are with us this morning, as well as my friend Monsieur Réjean Pommainville, qui habite dans la municipalité de La Nation. Bienvenue, monsieur Pommainville, aussi.

Ms. Soo Wong: I would like to welcome my intern. I just noticed she’s sneaking into the chamber gallery, so I want to welcome Leslie Munoz, who is my intern for this session.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: I would like to welcome today to the gallery the teams from the Second Harvest, GreenScience Technologies, Club Coffee, Repair Café and Flashfood, who would like to invite you to the launch of the long-term circular economy and zero waste strategy. They have booths over just across the hall, from all of those. I know my critics are joining me to launch the strategy and to introduce you to some of Ontario’s circular businesses.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further introductions? Seeing no further introductions: In the Speaker’s gallery today are guests of mine, acquaintances and friends. Joining me, with a lifetime of experience as an executive on the OFA, is a friend of mine, Larry Davis. Thank you, Larry, for joining us.

Also, from Ducks Unlimited, we have Patti Ronald. Thank you for joining us, Patti.

Mr. John Yakabuski: When’s Joe Peters coming back? When’s your brother coming back?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I banned him.

I welcome all of our guests to the House.

It is

now therefore time for question period.

Oral Questions

Energy policies

Mr. Patrick Brown: My question is for the Minister of Finance. Again, as the Liberals always do, they play a shell game. The latest shell game is shifting hydro bills around. We saw it with the clean energy rebate being replaced with the HST rebate, while people’s bills still go up.

The latest leaked plan suggests that costs from your hydro bill will shift to your tax bill. Mr. Speaker, HST, income tax, the fees: The money needs to come from somewhere. Will this government come clean and acknowledge that, in their leaked plans, taxes are going to go up? They’re simply playing a shell game.

Hon. Charles Sousa: I’m very proud to say that we’re balancing the books. I’m proud to say that we’ve reduced our deficit, as of December, to $1.9 billion, $2.5 billion above plan.

We’re taking every step necessary to protect the interests of all Ontarians and taxpayers to ensure that we invest in the things that matter for the long term to make us competitive.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I just want to remind members I have to hear your questions and answers. When those kinds of ovations take place, and the interjections, it just simply raises the temperature in the House. I’d appreciate it not happening. Also, the responses to those—it would be helpful not to do that.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: But there’s so much to applaud.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Timmins–James Bay, I don’t need your editorial. Thank you. I’m being serious here.

Supplementary.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Mr. Speaker, again to the Minister of Finance. Rather than answer a question on hydro, the government chooses to cheer their government talking points.

I will once again try to ask a question about hydro. Ontarians are struggling with their hydro bills, and I’d appreciate an answer to a question on hydro.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Durham, come to order.

Mr. Patrick Brown: This is the government that introduced the global adjustment. This is the government that for those 30 bad contracts that they’re now saying they might look at, they received $1.3 million in donations.

My question is: Will the Minister of Finance come clean and acknowledge that this latest leaked plan is simply a shell game of shifting funds from the hydro bill to the tax base?

Hon. Charles Sousa: The member opposite hasn’t produced any plan whatsoever. What we have done is invest over $50 billion to $60 billion in new hydro construction: more transmission facilities, more clean power plants, enabling us to get off dirty coal and ensure we protect our environment.

At the same time, we now have greater integrity in the system, which we didn’t have when the Conservatives were in power. We had blackouts and lots of brownouts. We are ensuring that in the future, that does not happen. We’re investing to protect the interests of all Ontarians and ensuring that our electricity rates go down to protect and mitigate those increased costs.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Start the clock. Order, please. Thank you.

Final supplementary.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Again to the Minister of Finance. The Minister of Finance brags that there are less brownouts, but the reality is there are more. Since 2012, there have been 275% more power outages. So the system is not more reliable.

You signed bad contracts. This government signed bad contracts. They brought in the global adjustment. They have created a mess. Rather than simply giving the government talking points, what I’d like is for the Minister of Finance to apologize to the people of Ontario and say he’s going to return the donations that the Liberal Party got for these bad contracts.

Will the Minister of Finance at least encourage the Premier to return those donations for those bad contracts?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I’m very pleased to stand and speak to this, of course, Mr. Speaker, because Ontarians do remember those rolling brownouts and the blackouts and the smog days. Those are a thing of the past, thanks to this government. We invested $50 billion in generation and transmission—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know the PCs forget what it was like when they were in government. You know what, they’re desperate to create a problem when there is none—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I bet I can stand for 54 minutes. If the comments continue, I will.

As soon as I sit down, if it starts, I stand again.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Pointing to power outages from falling trees and dump trucks hitting lines—we’ve actually made sure that we’ve built a system that is reliable, one that we can rely on. That’s what we’ve seen right across the province with the $50 billion of—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Your time is up. Supplementary?

Mr. Patrick Brown: New question.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Sorry, new question.

Forest industry

Mr. Patrick Brown: My question is for the Minister of Energy. Since I can’t get an answer on the Liberal donations for these bad contracts, since I can’t get an answer—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): It is never a bad time to stand and withdraw something that you said that shouldn’t be said—because I couldn’t pinpoint who it was. I don’t think that that’s parliamentary. I think it’s time for us to elevate our game here.

Finish your question, please.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Mr. Speaker, since I can’t get an answer on the massive increase in power outages, let me try a different tack. We all know about Frank Dottori, an absolute legend in the forestry sector. He brought his hydro bill to the finance committee. The bill was $12,600, but only $363 was actual electricity. The rest was the Liberal global adjustment, delivery fees and taxes.

I understand the Minister of Energy is going around saying everything is rosy; everything is fine with hydro. Will the Minister of Energy acknowledge that this is a huge problem for the forestry sector?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: We’ve been working very hard as a government to ensure that we have a reliable system and a clean system. But when you’re looking at the forestry sector—I acknowledge the Minister of Municipal Affairs and the MPP from Thunder Bay, the Minister of Northern Development and Mines. They have done great work in ensuring that our forestry sector is actually saving money on their electricity bills through the NIER Program. The Northern Industrial Electricity Rate Program is saving forestry companies 25% on their energy bills.

They have some of the lowest rates not only in Ontario, not only in Canada, but right across North America. We’re seeing a success in this sector. We’re going to continue to find ways to help that business continue to grow and prosper.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Again to the Minister of Energy: The Minister of Energy says they’re working hard on hydro and forestry. Stop working hard, because we’ve lost 50% of our forestry jobs. Our hydro bills are skyrocketing—among the worst in North America. Again, listen to what those in the industry are saying. Frank was wondering why we’re killing jobs in Ontario because of hydro. In his own words, he said, “Most jurisdictions use energy costs to promote economic development, not kill jobs, which is what we’re doing in Ontario.”

The government can throw out any number they want, any talking point they want, but will the Minister of Energy at least acknowledge that we have a hydro crisis and it is killing jobs in the forestry sector? It is killing jobs in northern Ontario. Will you at least acknowledge we have a crisis here?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I also, again, want to thank the Minister of Municipal Affairs for pointing out that Resolute in Thunder Bay, because of their low energy costs—not only with the NIER Program but with some of the other programs that we’ve brought forward as a government—are actually seeing this facility being either the first- or second-lowest in terms of energy costs in their entire fleet.

But we recognize that there is more that can be done and will be done—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Nipissing, come to order.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: —and that’s why we continue to bring forward a plan. We are—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Right after I asked the member to come to order, he continues. I would ask the member to come to order.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So we’re bringing forward a plan. We’ve already helped reduce rates by 8%. We’re going to be doing more, and that’s a lot more than what the opposition has done, because they never invested in the electricity sector. The example is the rolling brownouts and blackouts that we saw before we took power.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Again to the Minister of Energy: The Minister of Energy says they’re acting. They got rid of the clean energy rebate and replaced it with an HST rebate. Bills are still going up. The forestry sector is still struggling. We’ve lost 52% of our forestry jobs. There is nothing to celebrate here. You are killing jobs. This government is killing jobs in northern Ontario.

It’s more than simply hydro. What Frank passed on to the finance committee in terms of this crisis—he said that he has been in business for 40 years and, for 40 years, aside from the hydro, what he has actually seen is red tape triple—absolutely triple—in the forestry sector. It took him eight months to open a gravel pit to repair roads.

Mr. Speaker, it’s bad enough that they’ve created a crisis in hydro. How can they allow a crisis in red tape?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: The Minister of Economic Development and Growth.

Hon. Brad Duguid: Speaker, let’s talk about red tape, because this government, this province, is leading the world when it comes to reducing regulatory burden. We’ve reduced 80,000 regulatory burdens over the years—80,000. We have before the House a bill called the Burden Reduction Act. That’s going to save between $13 million and $31 million for businesses. We have our Red Tape Challenge, which is out there helping small, medium and large businesses save hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars.

This government is leading the way when it comes to reducing regulatory burden. Our Open for Business program has been a huge success. We’ve been nominated more than any other province in this country by the CFIB for their Golden Scissors Award, acknowledgement from a third party that we’re reducing the regulatory burden for businesses in this province better than anyone in the country and better than anyone in the world.

Energy policies

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: My question is to the Acting Premier. On Monday, the Premier indicated that she believes that there is no link between public affordable hydro and lower hydro rates. The Premier also claims to like to make decisions based on evidence. So let’s look at the facts: Manitoba has a publicly owned hydro system, and their rate per kilowatt hour is 7.38 cents. Ontario’s system is, of course, a private system, and during mid-peak times our rate per kilowatt hour is 13.2 cents—almost double. Even during off-peak hours, Ontario families and businesses pay more than Manitoba.

Can the government indicate now, looking at these facts, that there is absolutely no link between public ownership and lower hydro rates?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: To the Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I’m pleased to rise and respond to that question because, of course, Quebec and Manitoba are blessed with geography. They have legacy hydro. Going back and talking about Manitoba—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Same rule applies.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Speaking of Manitoba, when they were in power they cancelled the Conawapa program and made sure they cancelled the conservation program as well.

We’ve actually rebuilt a system that we can be proud of and that is reliable and clean. We’re making sure that we take it to the next level and make it as affordable as possible for as many people in this province as we can.

When we’re looking at broadening the ownership of Hydro One, we’re on track to raise the $9 billion that we intended to put into infrastructure to continue to build Ontario up.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: It looks like the government is unconvinced.

The government mentioned Quebec. Let’s talk about Quebec. A family across the border, our neighbour in Quebec, if they look at their bill—they also have a publicly owned system—they would see a rate of just 5.71 cents per kilowatt hour—5.71 cents. If an Ontario family looked at their bill and they did something as wild as trying to cook dinner for their children before off-peak hours set in at 7 p.m., they could see rates as high as 18 cents per kilowatt hour—18 cents.

How can the government deny the connection when the facts state very clearly that public hydro systems are more affordable and more cost-beneficial than the private systems that we’ve seen so far?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: It’s obvious to me now that the NDP has no idea how our energy system in this province works. We actually need to generate power. We don’t have the benefit of geography like they do in Quebec and like they do in Manitoba. We need to build our generation. We do have some hydroelectric power, but there is a cost to nuclear, there is a cost to wind, there is a cost to solar—and we built that. We’ve done it, making sure that we can be clean and green and reliable.

The one thing that is very important for us, as a government, is that, when we rebuilt this system, one that governments of all stripes forgot about and never invested in, we actually made sure that we can now rely on this system. It cost us significant money, but we’re going to make it as affordable as possible for people.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Lower hydro bills start with public ownership and public control of our electricity system. It’s a fact.

But here’s the problem for the Liberal government: The problem for the Liberal government is that public ownership of the hydro system benefits everyday Ontarians, and it benefits all of us. But all the evidence, all the facts point to this government and this Premier wanting to only help well-connected insiders. Their policies have only benefitted a small group of insiders on Bay Street, not the rest of Ontarians.

The Premier has purposely ignored people on Main Street to the benefit of the people on Bay Street time and time again. Why doesn’t the government understand that when people pay for electricity, they don’t expect to pay for the profits of private companies?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: The system that we have built in Ontario, the system that we’ve invested in—$50 billion in terms of generation and rebuilding transmission—benefits every single Ontarian.

When we’re saving $4.3 billion in health care costs, that benefits everyone in this province. When our air pollution deaths have dropped 23%, that is significant and benefits everybody in this province. When we have our air pollution hospitalizations drop by 41%, that benefits every single Ontarian.

So we’ll take no lessons from the party that has no idea about putting forward a plan that makes sure—all they’re talking about is pushing ideas to the future. We’re going to bring forward immediate relief to help—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Start the clock.

New question.

Infrastructure program funding

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: My question, again, is to the Acting Premier. Yesterday, the Premier said that she didn’t believe that Ontario could have an affordable, public hydro system and, at the same time, build infrastructure. She said it was an either/or; she couldn’t stop her decision to sell off Hydro One.

I’m sorry to bring facts into this argument, but we’ve been doing that for a long time, actually. We’ve been building infrastructure and at the same time maintaining a public, affordable hydro system.

When the Yonge subway line was built in Toronto, the government didn’t have to sell off hydro. When the University subway line was built, we also had public, affordable hydro systems. When the Bloor-Danforth line was built, there was no sell-off. Even Mike Harris built the Sheppard line before trying to sell off Hydro One.

It’s not a surprise. In this province, we have built public infrastructure, transportation infrastructure and maintained a public, affordable hydro system. So why does the government think that it can’t be done, when it’s been done so many times before?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: To the Minister of Transportation.

Hon. Steven Del Duca: I’m delighted to have the chance to speak about the incredibly ambitious and unprecedented transit projects that our government is investing in currently.

No other government in Ontario history has invested as much and as consistently in public transit right across the greater Toronto and Hamilton area, in Waterloo, in Ottawa and in the 99 communities across this province that have public transit systems. Those are communities that, by example, are benefitting from the doubling of the gas tax program that the Premier recently announced just a couple of weeks ago, which is great news for all those communities.

I’ve said this before in this Legislature: Just for once, I would be delighted to hear a member of the NDP caucus stand up and provide people in this chamber and those watching at home with any sense of a plan to build public transit in the GTHA or beyond. They’ve never presented that plan. Perhaps in the follow-up question, that member from Brampton will provide some semblance of a plan.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Speaker, the first step of that plan will be to win the election and to remove the Liberals from power.

For 100 years, Ontario has had public, affordable—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of Municipal Affairs, come to order. Although he hides behind other members, I can still hear him.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: People in Ontario don’t buy the Liberals’ false choices, that we can’t have a public hydro system and still build infrastructure. For 100 years, we’ve had affordable public hydro. We built highways. We built bridges. We’ve connected Kenora to Ottawa and Timmins to Windsor. We can build infrastructure and maintain a public, affordable hydro system. How can the Premier continually state that Ontario can’t do this when we’ve done it so many times before?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Minister of Transportation.

Hon. Steven Del Duca: I think everybody in this province knows that in the last election campaign the people of Ontario had a chance to review that very thin platform from that party. They rejected it: nothing on transit; nothing on transportation. Two and a half years later, we see they still present nothing.

Every single project we brought forward—the Eglinton Crosstown; support for the Scarborough subway; building the Finch West LRT; the Hurontario LRT; the Hamilton LRT; support for Waterloo’s ION LRT, support for the LRT in Hamilton; support for doubling of the gas tax and so much more that we are doing in every corner of Ontario, including Bramalea–Gore–Malton—that party consistently rejects our plan to move the province forward, to build more transit, put more transit into service, providing a stronger economy and a more positive quality of life for the people who we, on this side of the House, are damn proud to represent.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. I’m going to ask the member to withdraw.

Hon. Steven Del Duca: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: But what a good clip.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Nepean–Carleton, please come to order.

I want to make sure she heard me.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Oh, yeah, I did.

Mr. Steve Clark: I’ll help.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Don’t help her.

Final supplementary.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: All across Ontario, we built schools, we built hospitals, we built libraries, we built public pools, courthouses, waterworks, all without—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I did have plans to make some kind of remark on this side, but when the other side starts to dive into it, it makes it hard for me to throw that out. But I always try to be unique, and one side or the other, I might decide one side needs to be on warnings and the other side not, if that would help.

Please finish.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: So we built schools, we built hospitals. We built all this infrastructure, all without selling our affordable public hydro system. We’ve done it all. When the Premier states that Ontario can’t build public infrastructure, can’t build transportation infrastructure, can’t build public transit without selling off affordable public hydro, how does she expect the people of this province to believe that?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Minister of Transportation.

Hon. Steven Del Duca: I have to say on behalf of everyone on this side of the House that I want to thank the member from the NDP caucus for belatedly recognizing what everybody in Ontario knows: Premier Kathleen Wynne and our government are consistently building the province up, investing in infrastructure. Hopefully with their support we’ll continue to be able to do that. Thank you so much. It’s greatly appreciated.

At the end of the day, what the people of Ontario expect is, they expect a government that’s able to do more things than one thing at a time and do it well. That member referenced health care infrastructure. He mentioned education infrastructure. I’m very proud, as Minister of Transportation, to be working with my colleagues to invest more in transit and transportation. We’re going to keep doing it.

I hope this new spirit of openness and honesty and forthrightness in this chamber from that caucus will continue in the months ahead. Perhaps working together and maybe even working with the Tories, Speaker, we’ll get more done for the people of Ontario.

Energy policies

Mr. Todd Smith: Thank you, Speaker, and good morning. My question is for the Minister of Energy this morning.

Ontarians are tired of these vague cabinet leaks and shell games with their hydro bills. If you believe the leaked story this morning in the Star, the Liberal government is about to make all Ontarians pay for the colossal failures of this government over the last eight years and the electricity crisis that they’ve created.

Is the government extending the payout period for electricity companies that donated $1.3 million to the Liberals? We want to know, yes or no. Is that going to happen in their plan? Why don’t you deal with the actual crisis in electricity, which is the skyrocketing costs that go along with these fixed contracts that you’ve signed with renewable energy companies? Is this government committed to no longer signing expensive, fixed-rate contracts?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I know on this side of the House, we’re very proud of the work that we’ve done with our renewable energy sector. I know CanWEA is here today. We’ve ensured that we’ve built a system with a supply mix that relies on renewable, that relies on nuclear, that relies on gas and water. We have a system that is the envy of North America. We have the States, we have many subnationals and we have many of our partner provinces calling us up and asking us to help them with the system that we’ve built.

We’re going to continue, though, to find ways to reduce rates for people, families and businesses that are having a hard time making those payments. We will continue to work hard, but right now we’re going to make sure that we bring forward this plan. We’ll make sure that we have immediate relief for Ontarians in the very near future, but no decisions have been made at this time.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Todd Smith: One day the minister is saying, “What a great job we did;” the next day he’s apologizing for the crisis they’ve created in electricity; and the next day he’s saying he did a great job again. If you stick a quarter in this jukebox, you’re going to get one of those records. That’s what you’re going to get from this Liberal minister.

If it was as easy as this morning’s vague cabinet leak to fix this problem, then why didn’t you do it years ago? Why didn’t you fix the problem when Xstrata left Timmins to go to Quebec? Why didn’t you do it when the greenhouses in southwestern Ontario went to Michigan? Why didn’t you do it when businesses were telling you that their electricity prices were going up by double digits year after year after year? Why did you wait until a year out from an election to announce that you suddenly have a plan to solve the crisis that you created in electricity—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you. Order.

Minister?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Once again, I’m very pleased to rise to answer the question, because the one thing that the opposition member forgets about is it’s this government that had to rebuild that system that actually had businesses shut down. They forget about that so quickly.

I know the Minister of Economic Development and Growth will want to talk about the constant growth we’re seeing in this province, thanks to the efforts we’re making to ensure that we can keep high-paying jobs in this province.

The one thing that the opposition member also forgets, and there are a lot of things that they forget to talk about, is that 42,000—42,000—high-paying, clean-sector jobs are now in this province thanks to the investments that we have made, which they voted against every single time.

I know the honourable member forgets a lot of the things that we do as a government, but I know the people of Ontario won’t. I know our industry players don’t forget that we are the party that’s invested in—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Be seated, please. Thank you.

New question.

Energy policies

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: My question is to the Acting Premier. I’ve been meeting with seniors in my riding who live on fixed incomes. They tell me they are forced to make tough choices while they’re at home during the day. They are being forced to turn off the heat; they can’t cook their meals. They can’t stay up all night to shift their hydro usage to off-peak hours. For seniors, hydro is not a luxury the way it is for the Premier. Will the Liberal government scrap their ineffective time-of-use hydro pricing policies, as the NDP has proposed, and reduce hydro bills for seniors?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: The Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Once again, I’m pleased to rise. The whole reason why we’re actually bringing forward a plan is to make sure that those families, those seniors who are struggling, who aren’t seeing the benefit of our economic rebound, who don’t necessarily see the benefit of us rebuilding the system—that we can actually find ways to help them even more. We’ve done that with the 8% reduction, but we know we can do more.

The Ontario Electricity Support Program is something that seniors can use and that many other families can use: those that use electric heat and those that need medical devices. That’s why we recognize that we can find a way to do more. That’s why we’re actively working right now to find immediate relief.

I know the member opposite talked about the NDP proposal. There was nothing in that proposal that had immediate relief. We’re working on finding a relief package that will be immediate.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: Speaker, the Liberal government’s own report shows that time-of-use pricing does not encourage conservation or shift away the demand that the government has hoped for. All it has done is punish ratepayers who can’t use hydro during off-peak hours, like seniors, like stay-at-home parents and like businesses. The Premier can reduce the bills of these ratepayers immediately by scrapping time-of-use pricing, as the NDP has proposed. Will the Liberal government scrap their ineffective time-of-use pricing policies now?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Absolutely not. What the NDP doesn’t see is that by scrapping time of use, the rates for every single ratepayer in this province will go up. We’re making sure that that’s not going to happen. That’s why we recognize that there are some families that actually could benefit from a different type of plan rather than time of use.

We’ve worked for the last six months with our system operator on having them come up with some alternatives for that type of program, but that type of program, that type of change, won’t be immediate. That’s what we’re working on: immediate relief for families. They’re talking about maybe some things that possibly might add up in the very, very far distant future. We’re working right now for immediate relief.

Infrastructure program funding

Mr. Peter Z. Milczyn: My question is for the Minister of Infrastructure. On this side of the House, we know that infrastructure is about more than just bricks and mortar; it’s about creating and sustaining jobs, growing the economy and enhancing the quality of life for all. That’s why I’m proud that our government is making the largest investment in critical public infrastructure in this province’s history: building the schools, the hospitals, the roads, the bridges and the public transit that Ontarians need to thrive in the 21st century in communities all across Ontario, including my own of Etobicoke–Lakeshore. This is not just putting shovels in the ground; it’s putting people to work.

The opposition has been claiming that we just pay lip service to this. This is simply not the case. The Leader of the Opposition, in repeating it in speech after speech, is hoping nobody is paying attention to the facts. Facts still matter in this province. My question to the minister: Can he share the facts about our infrastructure investments?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Thank you to the member for the question. There are over $14 billion in major projects under way in this province as we speak, and Infrastructure Ontario is in the process of procuring $11.8 billion more. We have delivered 29 brand new schools; new courthouses in Durham, St. Thomas and Thunder Bay; the Herb Gray Parkway; the Union Pearson Express, and Highway 407 East. We have finished 100 major hospital projects, including a $474-million mental health facility in the Leader of the Opposition’s own riding. Now he has been telling everyone who will listen that this government can’t get shovels in the ground.

In the last three years of the Harris government, they spent just $2.2 billion a year on average in infrastructure.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Essex, come to order.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Now they have the gall to lecture us when we’re spending six times that amount. Our investments in infrastructure are at historic levels.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Peter Z. Milczyn: It’s unfathomable to me that anyone paying attention could claim this government isn’t getting shovels in the ground when there’s over $14 billion of projects under construction as we speak. But perhaps the opposition isn’t paying attention. If they were, they would know that in their leader’s riding, the government is providing more than $10 million in formula funding this year alone.

It’s of great importance to the Premier and to the minister to ensure that we are building up communities in every region of the province, from small towns to big cities. I know there are many funding programs, such as the Ontario Community Infrastructure Fund and the Clean Water and Wastewater Fund, in place to help municipalities of all sizes.

Could the Minister of Infrastructure please explain what our government is doing to ensure that communities everywhere, including the leader’s riding, are benefiting from this historic infrastructure investment?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: The member mentioned OCIF and water, programs we are very proud of and that have been warmly welcomed by our municipal leaders. We are investing $100 million in expanding natural gas access to underserved areas in the province, something that party has never done. We are tripling our community infrastructure fund to $300 million, and we negotiated with the federal government to ensure that clean water and waste water funding flows to every municipality in Ontario. That means every member in this House, including every member opposite, will see investments in their riding.

Everywhere you look in our great province, there’s evidence of a major investment that is getting shovels in the ground and putting Ontarians to work. The Leader of the Opposition should look in the mirror and vote for Kathleen Wynne.

Waste diversion

Mr. Ted Arnott: My question is for the Minister of the Environment. On Monday in this House, the minister refused to accept responsibility for the Ontario Tire Stewardship program, suggesting instead it was the fault of the previous government. That statement was false. The Ontario Tire Stewardship was established in 2009, six years after the Liberal government was first elected.

Last February, the minister told this House that he would have the Ontario Tire Stewardship wound up within a year. Today is the first day of March. The year has now passed. Will the minister explain to this House why he missed his deadline for winding up the Ontario Tire Stewardship and why he is now planning to extend it by another 22 months?

Hon. Glen R. Murray: I’m glad they are doing fact checking, Mr. Speaker, because the entire legislation that turned out to be problematic—which the member opposite agreed was not working—was passed by the Conservative government in 2002. That laid out a system that led to a series of market failures. You’re quite correct about the tire stewardship organization, but I think a little humility on both sides would be helpful here because the system didn’t work.

We had Bill 91 and Bill 93, both of which we couldn’t get through this House and were stalled by the opposition, which would have fixed this years ago. We had not a single question for 18 months on any of the IFOs or stewardship programs by the party opposite until the government last year passed Bill 151 and there was a Toronto Star story. We got our first question.

We had already fixed the problem, Mr. Speaker, before they even—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary? The member for Huron–Bruce.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Back to the minister. I find it passing strange that this minister was not doing his own job, casting oversight on his own eco tax program, and now he’s missing his own deadlines.

Beyond the alleged theft of half a million dollars under his nose, there’s another issue the minister needs to own. OTS has a surplus of $50 million. That’s right: OTS, an agency of this government, gouged Ontarians for an extra $50 million. When Ontarians buy new tires this spring, we’re still going to pay that eco tax.

Will the minister tell us where this extra money is going? What is it being used for?

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Again, Mr. Speaker, this is passing precious and strange. The decision to turn the entire operation over to for-profit companies and pull the public sector out of it was a decision of the government opposite. We inherited that when it was all deployed, and tried to fix it on three separate occasions.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): You’re just a millisecond away from being warned.

Finish, please.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: It was this Premier who, two years ago, said, “I’m not happy with this system,” and ordered this minister to investigate. We then proposed radical restructuring and the elimination of the IFOs, in consideration that there were these risks. Then we ordered an investigation, which is currently under way, without any prompting from the opposition. Look at the owl; look at the eagle. We’ve done our job. When are you going to do yours?

Energy policies

Mr. Taras Natyshak: My question is to the Acting Premier. A constituent of mine from Amherstburg, Mrs. Linda Eaton, shared her hydro bill with me. Last year, her bill was $372 for January. The Premier promised that bills would go down for rural ratepayers like Mrs. Eaton, but that’s not what happened. This year, her January bill was over $500 for roughly the same amount of energy used, and her hydro delivery charge has doubled in two years.

Will the Premier provide real relief for ratepayers like Mrs. Eaton and reduce her rural delivery rates to what urban ratepayers pay, as New Democrats have proposed?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: To the Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I’m very pleased to rise and respond because those Hydro One R2 customers, which are 330,000 households, have seen a $60 reduction off of their delivery line. That’s because we acted when we heard that many in rural, remote and northern parts of our province are paying a higher amount.

We do recognize that we need to do more. That’s why we’re looking and working on a plan right now to provide more relief to specifically like the person that the honourable member mentioned, because R2 only provides that relief to 330,000 households. They do get that 8%, and we do recognize that those folks who do live in rural, remote or northern parts of our province do pay a higher proportion on their bills.

That’s why we’re continuing to act. They’re seeing the benefits of a clean system, a reliable system and a green system. We’re now going to make sure that we can make it as affordable as possible.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: Speaker, forgive me, but it sounds like another Liberal stretch goal, like the 15% off auto insurance that we never saw. We won’t hold our breath.

Mr. and Mrs. Eaton are seniors living on fixed incomes. They don’t have access to natural gas and they don’t have a choice but to heat with hydro. They’ve done everything that the Premier has told them to do in order to lower their bills. They do their laundry and their dishes during off-peak hours. They keep their living room temperature at 18 degrees. They even keep their kitchen temperature at 13 degrees. But their hydro bills keep going up, even though the Premier has promised that they would go down. Will the Premier get rid of unfair rural delivery rates and reduce the bills for families like the Eatons?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: There are two parts within that question. The first one I’d like to respond to. It relates to natural gas. I think it’s important to also highlight that our government is investing $100 million in a grant program to make sure that we can get natural gas out to as many communities as possible. I know that the Minister of Infrastructure has been spearheading that and doing a great job with that.

Applause.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Yes. When it comes to doing more for families like the honourable member mentioned, we do agree that more needs to be done. That’s why we’re working very hard right now on a plan that will provide immediate relief. We will make sure that we work on this plan and roll it out as quickly as possible because we do understand that, while we’ve invested in the system and while we’ve made it clean and while we’ve made it green, it needs to be as affordable as possible. That’s why we’re working very, very hard to ensure that we can get this done as quickly as possible, to do just that.

Senior citizens

Ms. Daiene Vernile: My question is for the Minister of Seniors Affairs. The minister is now leading a new, full-fledged ministry which is dedicated to the well-being of Ontario’s seniors, and it’s reshaping how we view aging in Ontario. This decision shows the commitment that both the Premier and all our members are making to support older adults.

In my riding of Kitchener Centre, the head of a local retirement home told me recently that today’s seniors want to be active and lead a life of purpose, regardless of their age. We have long-term-care facilities, community centres and educational programs designed especially with today’s seniors in mind.

Minister, we know that you’ve been very busy working to transition to your new role, and you have some very interesting ideas on shaping this ministry.

Speaker, could the Minister of Seniors Affairs share with us some of her aspirations in this new, important role she has?

Hon. Dipika Damerla: I want to begin by thanking the member from Kitchener Centre for the question. I have to say that I’m truly honoured to be the Minister of Seniors Affairs.

I can’t think of a better time than the year 2017 to create this stand-alone ministry, and that’s because, as we all know, 2017 is that watershed year. This is the year when in Ontario there are more people over the age of 65 than children under the age of 15. There are 2.2 million seniors in Ontario, and I say that’s 2.2 million very good reasons to create the stand-alone Ministry of Seniors Affairs.

Here in Ontario, we have a vision: We want to make Ontario the best place in the world to grow up and grow old in. I commit to giving life to that vision.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

You’ve been out almost every day meeting with seniors and stakeholders, hearing their concerns and offering them support. This is a very important undertaking—listening—and it’s no doubt greatly appreciated by the people with whom you have visited. It’s important for all members to get out and to hear feedback from people who we are working to support.

Speaker, could the Minister of Seniors Affairs please tell us about her recent tour? She has been criss-crossing Ontario chatting with people and listening to them; I, for one, would like to hear what happened on this tour.

This winter, I travelled across the province to meet with seniors face to face, because I wanted to hear from them first-hand what their concerns are. That’s why I visited elderly persons’ centres in Ancaster and Hamilton, met with seniors in Cobourg not once but twice, spoke with university students about tackling the challenges of an aging population at Trent University with Minister Leal, and listened to a diverse group of advocates in Etobicoke and Newmarket with MPP Milczyn and MPP Baker.

I was in northern Ontario with Minister Zimmer and met with the Naicatchewenin and Mitaanjigamiing First Nations, and I visited Sandy Lake to announce funding for a new elders’ hub. But I’m not done, Mr. Speaker. I intend to continue touring the province.

Hydro rates

Ms. Laurie Scott: My question is to the Minister of Energy. Last month, the Leader of the Opposition and I visited the Cedarvilla farm in Selwyn township in the riding of Peterborough, where we heard from local dairy farmer Randy Bullock that his hydro bill has tripled over the past 10 years. He still has the same number of cows that he did a decade ago, he has been improving the efficiency of his business and he even milks the cows by hand to save on hydro costs, but still those costs have skyrocketed, and the government’s 8% rebate is nothing but a drop in the bucket.

The hard-working farmers across rural Ontario are tough and proud, but as Randy puts it, it is just too much. My question to the Minister of Energy is, when will the Liberal government stop forcing agriculture, one of our main economic drivers, out of the province with their irresponsible hydro policies?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Minister of Agriculture.

Hon. Jeff Leal: I want to thank the honourable lady from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock for her question this morning.

Just to give you a little insight, particularly in the dairy industry in the province of Ontario, over the last two years, the dairy industry quota in the province of Ontario has increased by 6% each and every year. What does that tell you, Mr. Speaker? That tells you—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

Hon. Jeff Leal: —that the dairy sector is growing significantly in the province of Ontario. Agriculture and agri-food processing contributes $36 billion to Ontario’s GDP each and every year.

Mr. Speaker, this morning, at 5:30 a.m.—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): To the end.

Hon. Jeff Leal: Mr. Speaker, at 5:30 a.m. this morning, 800,000 Ontarians woke up to pursue their careers in agriculture.

The honourable lady says that the quota increase has nothing to do with us. Yes, it has absolutely everything to do with us. We work with the dairy farmers each and every day—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. I’d like to remind the minister that when I stand, you sit.

Hon. Jeff Leal: Yes, sir.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Ms. Laurie Scott: The cost to agriculture because of the rising costs of energy is real. You can’t ignore that.

The government’s response to the ongoing hydro crisis has been something to behold. For years, they denied there was a problem. Then, they blamed the problem on anyone else but themselves. Finally, they admitted that they are responsible for the hydro mess but offered Ontarians a weak and tone-deaf response. Ontarians saw through the government’s actions and told them that they were doing far too little, far too late to respond to the growing energy poverty in the province.

Today, we hear that they’re once again scrambling to try to buy back Ontarians’ trust. But how can Ontarians trust this government to do anything to solve the mess that they themselves created over 14 years of mismanagement? Tell that to the dairy farmers.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Jeff Leal: Well, thanks very much, Madam Speaker. I just want to reply to the supplementary. The honourable member should know, of course, that the dairy quota in Ontario is worth about $6 billion, and it’s growing each and every year. The party opposite, when we proposed a risk management program for everybody else outside of the supply management sector, didn’t support it.

But in the back concessions in Ontario, we’re hearing now that the Leader of the Opposition—

Interjections.

Hon. Jeff Leal: We’re hearing in the back concessions in Ontario that the Leader of the Opposition may be endorsing Maxime Bernier as the next federal Conservative leader. Mr. Speaker, you know what mad Max wants to do? To get rid of supply management—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Oxford will withdraw.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Prince Edward–Hastings, come to order—second time.

The member from Oxford will withdraw.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Everybody just tone it down.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): No comments.

New question.

Mercury