LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 5 May, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle­ Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James) introduced Bill No. 56,

An Act to Amend The Child Welfare Act. MR. GARY FILMON (River Heights) introduced Bill No. 58, The Interior Designers of Manitoba Act. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER (Emerson) on behalf of Mr. Warren Steen (Crescentwood) introduced Bill No. 54,

An Act to Grant Additional Powers to Charleswood Curling Club Ltd. and Bill No. 46,

An Act to Amend

an Act Incorporating The Regent Trust Company. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed with Oral Questions, I would like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery on my left where we have 30 students of Grade V standing from General Byng School under the direction of Ms Bissky. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Health. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System. In view of the fact that there is some confusion in northern Manitoba pertaining to satellite reception and broadcasting systems in northern Manitoba, can the Minister advise whether or not his government has prepared a specific policy in regard to the provision of expanded television services in northern Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, the government has a general policy of encouraging and indeed hoping for the transmission of additional television services throughout the north as rapidly as possible. Part of the frustration of that general policy and part of the difficulty encountered is the rather laborious and long drawn-out meetings that involve the federal regulatory body CRTC.

The question that the Honourable Leader of the Oppostion refers to was dealt with at the Public Utilities Committee meeting last Tuesday and Thursday at which time the position of the government and the Manitoba Telephone System, I believe, was reasonably explained. MR. PAWLEY: A supplementary to the Minister: Can the Minister advise whether he will be presenting a submission to the CRTC outlining theprovince's position re expanded television services in northern Manitoba? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, the positions of the government have been before CR TC and will continue to be before CRTC through the offices of the Assistant Deputy Minister of telecommunications, Mr. Doug Smith. These are a series of ongoing meetings. We were hoping to perhaps culminate in some final decisions with this respect that a Minister of Communications Conference scheduled for Vancouver in June of this year, in other words a month from now. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, by way of final supplementary to the Minister, can the Minister advise that he will be prepared to meet with any interested parties pertaining to the government's position in regard to clarifying the province's position in providing television service in northern Manitoba? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure, just as are the members of the opposition, we are meeting with and have met in the past with interested parties in pursuing this service, not only in northern Manitoba but in other parts of the province of Manitoba.

Just recently our caucus and our individual ministerial offices received such indication on the part of one interested company, and I am sure the same is true with members opposite. The direct answer to his question is, certainly we are always prepared to meet with people who have the need for clarification or who have problems where government may be of some assistance to them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAM USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance whether he can indicate today just when he intends to bring down the Budget. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, I will advise the House within a day or two of the exact time, probably some time early next week. - (Interjection)- Never know. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet with a supplementary. MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of, I believe it is Municipal Affairs whether or not he is in a position to indicate just 3217

Monday, 5 May, 1980 when elections are going to be held in the LGD of Alexander? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. DOUGLAS GOURLAY (Swan River): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That decision hasn't been made at this point. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that it hasn't been made, but is he in a position to tell us just when it will be made. MR. GOURLAY: Very soon, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education, and ask him in view of the new social planning analysis of the city of Winnipeg which was released last week, whether he is prepared to reassess the provincial position in view of the staggering rates of unemployment, high welfare, crime, etc., in the city of Winnipeg, and whether he is willing to reassess the provincial position vis-a-vis funding for special needs and special programs in Winnipeg School Division No. 1 to combat these serious social problems. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A.

COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I think the particular report that the Member for Elmwood refers to has information that is relevant not only to my department, but probably to my colleagues in Health and Community Services as well. I can assure the member that we will certainly take that particular report into consideration in our deliberations. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask t,he Minister, who is, of course, famous for being the master of understatement when it comes to problems in the core area, whether he would consider bringing in a special warrant, if he were persuaded of the necessity as indicated in that report, to properly fund Winnipeg School Division No. 1 programs? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the member is aware that any move of that nature would be undertaken by the government by the Treasury Board. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister whether he concurs with the position of the Mayor of Winnipeg who recognizes that when schools close in a core area it leads to further deterioration and further problems and is in effect the beginning of a vicious circle? I wonder whether he has seen the Mayor's statement and whether he concurs with that view. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Whether a Minister concurs or not, in my mind does not really add to information in this particular question period. Would the member care to rephrase his question? MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister whether he recognizes the problem being confronted in Winnipeg School Division No. 1, where they are considering closing schools because of a falloff in population of school children, which then in turn leads to a further moving away of children, of parents with families, and a further deterioration in the core area, whether he sees that as a vicious circle and whether he has any solutions or words of wisdom for school trustees confronted with that problem? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, certainly we are well aware of the problem, and of course it is linked to declining enrolments and linked to declining birth rates in this province, I would say to the member - not only in this province, but in the country as well. If there are some solutions that he would like to put forward, I would be very pleased to hear them, because there are no ready or pat solutions to that problem that we see at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a fourth question. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Minister whether he does not appreciate that where a declining population results in the closing of a school, that the result is that fewer children move into that area, older people do, transients do, and you have a deterioration of that program, so that the aim of the government must, to a certain extent, be to maintain schools even where there is a declining population of school children, even if it is at some extra expense, because the social costs will be greater still than the education costs. MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest that we are starting to deal with what is possibly a hypothetical situation to some extent. The member talks about social costs, he talks about educational costs, and without referring to any absolute figures at all. I would say that this is something we have to weigh and measure rather carefully as to balance. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. Can the Minister provide us with information on the federalHog Stabilization Program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON.

JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to thank the member for his interest in the hog producers in the province, something that we very seldom get from the members opposite. The federal government did made an announcement today and there will . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. 3218

Monday, 5 May, 1980 May I suggest to the honourable member that he stick to the subject of the question and provide the information necessary. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The federal government did in fact make an announcement today to help the situation that the hog producers are facing today and there will be a payout of some 2.46 per hundredweight, which figures out to about 4. 10 per hog. There are some approximate 4,000 hog producers in the province of Manitoba, so it means something in excess of 4 million that will be received by the producers of Manitoba.

The farmers who have been producing hogs have seen somewhat depressed prices and I am sure this will be a welcome announcement. Although some of the particular details of the announcement or the formula used might not be of satisfaction, at least the moneys that will be coming, I am sure, will alleviate some of the immediate problems. MR. BROWN: To the same Minister, I wonder if the Minister could tell us whether there will be any subsidy for producers who produce weanlings only. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, the program for The Agricultural Stabilization Act is for slaughter hogs only. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture whether or not he can advise the House as to whether Canada is a net importer of pork and beef, or pork or beef, at the present time? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, at this specific time, no, I can't give him the details but we have been in fact an importer of meats over the certain period of the past year or two, but specifically at this particular point I would have to get the update on that particular information. MR.

USKIW: Yes, could the Minister advise the House whether or not in the year 1979 Canada was or was not a net importer of meat? MR. DOWNEY: Again, Mr. Speaker, I would take that question as notice to get the specific figures on the status of the Canadian import situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister in charge of parks.

I would like to ask him whether the Provincial Parks Nursery at Birds Hill Park will be planting young trees again this year in the same fashion as in the past and if not whether those trees will be planted elsewhere in the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM: I'll take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, a question to the Minister of Finance.

In view of the fact that International Mineral Corporation earned a pretax profit of 24 million in its 1979 tax year on the sale of some potash property in New Brunswick which it had explored in a fashion similar to its exploration proposal here in Manitoba, can the Minister advise as to whether the Crown in its agreement with IMC has negotiated for a right of first refusal by the Crown to repurchase the interests of IMC in that potash property which it is currently beginning to explore? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I think perhaps that part of the agreement is yet to be dealt with. The present agreement calls for the rights of IMC to do the exploration work pursuant to the final feasibility study. So that sort of thing is not yet dealt with in any potential agreement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere with a final supplementary. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, again to the Minister of Finance, I understand that part of the agreement hasn't yet been completed, but has another part of the agreement been completed with respect to the province of Manitoba giving IMC a right of first refusal to purchase its share or interest in this venture? MR. CRAIK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, but the undertaking from the province to IMC that deals with the other part of it, any other obligations would not be spelled out until any final agreement was entered into. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere with a final supplementary. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, again to the Minister of Finance, can you advise as to whether there has been any agreement entered into with IMC dealing with the price of any of this potash that might be sold, in view of the fact that IMC in all likelihood would be selling it to its parent corporation making fertilizer in the United States? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, those kinds of details have not been dealt with. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Northern Affairs.

My question is, in view of the fact that the situation in the Local Government District of Alexander arises solely as a result of the lack of a quorum and that the council had been proceeding normally up until that time, would the Minister assure himself that there are no substantial 3219

Monday, 5 May, 1980 changes with regard to the operation of that municipality, and would he assure himself that the present administrator will not revoke decisions that have been made by the duly-elected council pending the election of a new council? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I didn't quite hear what the member said, half-way through the question. I would if he could just re-ask that question, please. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the Local Government District of Alexander is not operating under a duly-elected council simply because of the lack of a quorum, and since the Minister's administrator is now in charge of council activities, because of this lack of a quorum, would the Minister see to it that the status quo remains, that is, that decisions made by the previous duly­ elected council are not revoked by the administrator because of the hiatus in terms of elected councillors for themoment, and that the status quo remain until elections are called, unless there is an urgency of some kind. MR.

GOULAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank the honourable member for rephrasing that question. I can assure the member that this will be considered. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, in view of the Minister's affirmative statement, would he see to it that certain equipment that was bought by the duly-elected council is not sent back, because I understand the administrator is talking about revoking the decision of the elected council with respect to certain municipal equipment. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I can assure the House that some decisions with respect to the purchase of equipment has already been decided upon. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, may I receive the assurance from the Minister that the administrator has not revoked the decision of the duly-elected council. May I also, Mr. Speaker, ask the Minister whether it would not be prudent for the administrator to consult with the reeve of the council, who was elected, before any substantial changes are made in the council's operations, since the council ceases to operate simply because there was not a quorum. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the case of the grader, the fact remains that the acceptance of the grader took place some three of four months ago. High interest payments had accumulated and the decision had to be made with respect to the grader, and that has been made. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster with a fourth question. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, may I then understand whether the administrator has taken it upon himself, in spite of the decision of the previous council, to undo the purchase of a grader, which was made by the previous council, and that the status quo which the Minister indicated would maintain until an election took place, has in fact been disturbed by the administrator, against the decision of the duly elected council. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That decision was made by myself, not by the administrator. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR.

BOSTROM: I would like to direct my question to the Minister who would be most responsible for dealing with the social problems in the city of Winnipeg. I expect that would be the Minister of Community Services. I refer to the two studies that have been released recently by the Winnipeg School Division and the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg, which have clearly pinpointed the serious problems in the central area of Winnipeg, which seems to be expanding now. Rather than calling it the core area, I refer to it as the central area.

I would ask the Minister if he and his department, or in co-operation with Cabinet collea gues, is attempting to bring together a comprehensive training and employment programs to deal with the scandalous levels of unemployment that are faced by the people that are living in that area, and I refer to the Winnipeg School Division report which ranks the schools by the unemployment levels of their parents, and they're as high as 55.8 percent unemployment in some areas. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, I have not seen that report myself as yet. l'msure my department has. And as the honourable member is aware, being a former Cabinet Minister, we have a cabinet committee called the Community Services Committee and I'm sure that will be a subject that we will deal with at that committee of cabinet, which is made up of the Minister of Health, the Minister of Education and myself, and one other Cabinet Minister. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that this report was prepared in December of 1979 from data coll ected from the Winnipeg School Division, and this is up-to-date data, I would expect the Minister would be dealing with this by now and not just merely expressing hope.

My second question, however, is to ask the Minister if he, in his departmental responsibilities, intends to introduce or improve the social programs that would be required as a back-up to deal with the special problems faced by families with single parent head of household, and I would refer especially to day-care programs and programs of that nature in that area of the city where a high proportion of the families seem to be single parent families. 3220

Monday, 5 May, 1980 So I would ask him if he is actually attempting to do something and not just simply saying that he hopes that it will be done. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, as the honourable member knows, we have increased the number of spaces in our day-care program this year, and the majority of the day-care spaces in the Winnipeg area are in the inner core area, and so they will have the opportunity of increasing their spaces by ten percent with the program that we have proposed this year.

In addition, I will gladly discuss the other programs that are presently in existence under our portfolio in our estimates which we believe may be started this week sometime. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland with a final supplementary. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the study reveals that 63.2 percent is a high statistic regarding the number of families that have students coming from single parent families, I would ask the Minister if he feels that a ten percent increase of the nature which he is proposing, which is, in effect, an increased cost to the parents as well, is adequate to deal with this very serious situation. I simply feel that this is not adequate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General.

Would the Minister confirm that no member of the legal profession, or an individual is exempt, automatically, from prosecution regarding the laws of Manitoba? HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I believe I can confirm that no one is exempt from the laws of Manitoba. MR. WILSON: In addition, Mr.

Speaker, while I personally have the greatest respect for the law enforcement workings of the RCMP, the recent MacDonald Commission, it has brought to my attention that one or two members of the RCMP have been involved in dirty tricks, and my supplementary question is, where would a lawyer or an individual file these charges? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the recent publicity from the MacDonald Commission revolved around something called Operation Checkmate, and I have received assurances from the Solicitor General of Canada that none of those activities took place in Manitoba within our jurisdiction. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley with a final supplementary. MR. WILSON: If information was available regarding dirty tricks within the province of Manitoba, and suggesting such things as polygraph tests, where would the lawyer or individual file these charges? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that they could be filed by contacting our department or the appropriate police department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Government Services.

Can the Minister indicate what action his department is taking in regard to the Min ister of the Environment's concern over the ordering and purchase and use of the chemical 2,4,5-T in the province by government agencies, and specifically, can the Minister indicate if he is prepared to direct his department not to purchase 2,4,5-T in the future for use in the province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Government Services, co-operating with the Minister of the Environment, in collecting the necessary data that he asked for as to those departments and those services of government that have in the past, purchased those chemicals. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would also like to know, from the Minister, if it is his intent to direct his department not to purchase 2,4,5-T for use in the province of Manitoba from this period on. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, when the department has received specific instructions from the Department of the Environment, then I suppose that that will be a matter that will be passed on through to the different departments, but my understanding of the position of the Department of the Environment at this point is that we are collating or bringing together the various amounts and the different departments that have, in the past, used this chemical, and for what purposes. There will then be an assessment of whether or not that should carry on. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR.

COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro. As there is some suggestion that 2,4,5-T is also being used by Manitoba Hydro, can the Minister indicate what quantities are on hand, what quantities are now being ordered for purchase by that department, and can he further indicate what actions he has taken in regard to preventing further use of this controversial and hazardous chemical in the province of Manitoba by his own department, Manitoba Hydro. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, with regard to the details, I think that the member would be better advised to direct that to the utility when it appears before the committee. I will inquire as to whether or not the chemical is under current use and attempt to gain that kind of information for him. 3221

Monday, 5 May, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Education. I would like to ask the Minister whether he is in receipt of a new enrolment projection report. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Education. MR. COSENS: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital with a supplementary. MR. WALDING: I would further like to ask the Minister whether such a report is now being produced. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I can explain a little more clearly to the member.

My department is continually updating the enrolment statistics, so when he asks me if we have a new report, my answer is no. I can assure him that we are constantly keeping the statistics we have up to date. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital with a final supplementary. MR. WALDING: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister then if his department has issued an updated, modernized version of the enrolment projection within the last few weeks and if that is the case, would he make a copy available to the opposition. MR.

COSENS: I would be quite prepared to make any copy of a projection of that type available to the honourable members, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question to the Minister of Agriculture: In view of the fact that the Min ister was encouraging increased hog production in the province a couple of weeks ago, what programs does he have, what programs does Manitoba have to help those hog producers who are now going into bankruptcy? What does he plan to do about that? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. MR.

DOWNEY: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I think it has been stated many times over that our position as a government is that on nationally produced agricultural commodities, that the federal government would be the best government that should administer and provide the kinds of programs that he is referring to.

As far as the production of hogs in the province of Manitoba, because we make up something like 1 percent of the North American hog population, that in fact Manitoba could play a greater role as far as the production of hogs are concerned with the amount of packing house industries that are available, with the spinoff to the other agriculture producers, the feed grains industry, that in fact it is important that we expand our hog population. I also stated at that particular time, Mr. Speaker, that it should be done under sound business planning and on a longer term projection rather than just a year.

I would also like to state, Mr. Speaker, that this has been the first time since 1971 that we have seen a depressed hog price where in fact the producers were losing substantive amounts of money. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose with a supplementary. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the province of Quebec is providing massive assistance grants to encourage hog production in Manitoba, what is this Minister going to do in order that we do not lose that production that we now have in place? MR. DOWNEY: I guess, Mr.

Speaker, one of the things that I have indicated to the hog producers of this province is the fact that we would have to look at what alternatives would serve the hog producers' long-term interests, and one of the things we have said we would do is to encourage the federal government to continue to update and to make changes to their Federal Stabilization Program that would in fact help the Manitoba producers. We havebeen meeting with the federal government.

Number two is to look at the tools available to the department, and that of course is the Manitoba Agriculture Credit Corporation, which has funds available for lending money to young and family farms, that in fact there may be some ability there to lend money to the hog producers. At this particular time, Mr. Speaker, those are just some of the alternatives that we have available to us. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose with a final supplementary. MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that probably Quebec will be asking for a market share, once they have achieved the majority production in Canada, we'll be caught without our share, our production. I would like to ask the Minister whether or not he has discussed this with the federal government, in this regard, and we will be forced to go into a market share with no production in Manitoba, the way this Minister is handling his department. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I am somewhat surprised to hear those kind of comments come from a particular party that believed totally in supply management, that in fact you can regulate the agricultural industry so that it in fact only produces a certain amount of supplies, of goods for the domestic market. I would have to say, Mr.

Speaker, that in our discussions with the federal Minister, that we in fact indicated to him that a meaningful producer participatory contributory type stabilization program was in the best interests of the Manitoba hog producers, that we did not support a national hog supply management program, which in fact the 3222

Monday, 5 May, 1980 federal Minister has indicated he feels would be the answer to the problems. We do not support that, Mr. Speaker, and in fact feel that the stabilization method is the best method, allowing the producers to take advantage of the domestic and international markets that are available to the Manitoba producers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to address a question to the Minister of Finance, who on April 3 agreed to accept a verbal Order for Return dealing with a tax refund discounter.

He renewed that undertaking on April 24. Can he undertake to see to it that we have that Return before his Estimates? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I will check on that immediately. My apologies to the Member for St. Johns; I expect it should have been back by now. It is probably an oversight on the part of the office. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address the Attorney-General and ask him if he is now prepared to make a report, which he undertook to do on May 1, dealing with the censorship of books on newsstands. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR.

MERCIER: I am not prepared to make that report today, Mr. Speaker. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister indicate whether there are any prosecutions being considered by the department dealing with the material which his department had taken off the stands. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I can only indicate that I understand through the newspaper that a complaint has been received. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns with another question. MR. CHERNIACK: You are right, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the Attorney-General whether he has received and can make available to the Legislature a copy of a report of a study which was launched by the Federal Department of Justice over a year ago dealing with user fees and Legal Aid. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the Legal Aid Society has received a draft report which the author has acknowledged is lacking in a number of areas. My understanding is that the Legal Aid Board and the author of the report have been considering different considerations and different facts and different proposals. When that is completed, a report will be finalized.

I believe now the author of the report is somewhere in the United States doing further studies on another matter and that may be the cause of the delay in producing the final report. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. MR. MINAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some time ago, the Honourable Member for Wolseley raised questions on how a social allowance recipient could make use of taxi service. This is the information relating to a provincial recipient, not necessarily a municipal recipient. I would first like to advise the House, Mr.

Speaker, that at no time do we issue vouchers directly to any social allowance recipients for taxi services. They are there and available primarily tor medical and emergency needs. In the case of a district office, the person requiring the medical service would phone into the district office and advise that they required such transporation and then the person in the office would decide whether in fact the transportation was required and would make note of it. In the instance of after-hours, there is an emergency available that allows a similar decision to be made if they have to go to a hospital.

In the rural areas where after-hours' emergencies occur, it is required by the recipient to get the signature of a medical officer at the time of receipt of the treatment and then the bills are considered at that time. In the instance of the rural area, the same exists. If they have to go to a hospital where there is no district office available for phoning to concur that the trip is necessary, then the signature of the medical doctor is required to show that in fact the visit was necessary.

At the end of the month all taxi bills that are received from taxi companies are scrutinized and those that do not correlate with the approved ones are not paid until they are verified that in fact they were required for medical services. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder then if the Minister might be able to tell me the combined cost to the taxpayers.

If provincial cost is over 450,000, if you add the federal costs - in other words, his answer was only pertaining to provincial policy, and if you add the municipal costs, would he be able to give me a figure of the federal, provincial and muncipal use of taxis? And can the Minister confirm that Mr. Ziprick the auditor agreed with with the suggestions and is conducting an investigation at this point in time? MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest to the honourable member to check with the federal counterparts and municipal counterparts with regards to the dollars of moneys spent on taxi transporation last year. I do not have those figures. With regards to his second question, I understand that possibly the provincial auditor may be investigating the use of taxis at the present time, but I have not confirmed that is in fact the case. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, time for question period having expired, before we proceed with Orders of the Day, I should like to draw to the honourable members' attention, 80 visitors in the 3223

Monday, 5 May, 1980 gallery. These are wives of delegates to the Canadian Labour Congress and on behalf of all the honourable members wewelcome you here this afternoon. COMM ITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member tor Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have some changes to make on the Public Utility Committee, substituting Mr. Enns for Mr. Craik, and Mr. Orchard for Mr. Ransom. MR. SPEAKER: Are those changes agreed to? (Agreed) ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister for Government Services that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member tor Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Health and the Member tor Virden in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment. CONC URRENT COM MITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT MR.

CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. We are on Resolution 38, 5.(c)( 1). The Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. In light of the information that has become public over the weekend, perhaps we should ask the Minister what he has done in regard to effecting his intended ban of the use of 2,4,5-T. We now know that certain government agencies, Government Services, has been reported as ordering it in for purchase.

It has been reported that Manitoba Hydro is using it and, of course, there is always the question of how many individuals and companies within the private sector are using 2,4,5-T. I would ask the Minister if he can advise us as to any progress he has made in regard to making certain that this chemical is not used in the province, and bring us up to date generally as to the status of his efforts. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Chairman, no decision has been made, as I indicated on Friday.

I am awaiting responses from the various departments that I have contactd and until I have received those responses, I will be making no further decisions. MR. COWAN: Am I to understand then, Mr. Chairperson, that it is perfectly acceptable now for a government department to continue ordering the purchase of 2,4,5-T for use in the province of Manitoba. MR. JORGENSON: Until a decision has been made, Mr. Chairman, there is no change in what has been the practice of past years, until a decision has been made to the contrary. MR.

COWAN: Just on that point, then, I don't know as if there is too much use in pursuing it further if the Minister has made up his mind to the tact that there will be no restrictions placed on the ordering of the material eventhough there is considerable controversy surrounding the material and even though Manitoba is one of the jurisdictions that is continuing to allow that material to be used in light of the evidence, the best available evidence, I might add.

I would only protest the Minister's inaction on this and to suggest that we hope that that material which he hopes to compile is done so very quickly and that this ban is imposed. We would like to see the ban imposed now, of course, because we do believe the chemical to be of that significant enough hazard, or potential hazard, as to severely restrict the use of the chemical in the province and therefore would like to see the ban imposed immediately.

But if that is not the case, we can only hope that he will proceed with all due haste to adequately determine what purchases are being made and where it is being used, so that the ban will be imposed in the near future. But that is second best, clearly second best in the opinion of the opposition. We would wish to see those restrictions go on immediately. If the Minister is to allow government departments to continue to purchase and to continue to use 2,4,5- T, in light of the evidence, then he is presenting an unfortunate example for the private sector. They will not be predisposed not to order the substance.

They will not give the credibility to the Minister's concerns that I am certain the Minister would wish to be given to his concerns in this matter. They will say, and justifiably so, that if the government is allowing it to be used, then why can't we use it? If the government is allowing it to be purchased, then why can't we purchase it? If the government is allowing it to come into the province, then why can't we bring it into the province.

And for all the arguing that we might wish to do, for all the dissuasion that we might wish to do, and those were the intentions of the Minister, to dissuade people from further use of this chemical, in the light of all that, they will still bring it in because the example, the very concrete, specific example, that is being given to them by government is that it is perfectly acceptable to use this substance.

The Minister has some concerns, but there's no ban, therefore, why should we have to suffer through not using this chemical when government itself will not take that responsibility to restrict its use within its own departments. So we do protest that action, we are concerned, we just believe that the Minister's intentions, while 3224

Monday, 5 May, 1980 they may be honourable and decent and good, are not being followed through in action, and that concerns us very deeply in that all the good intentions are worth very little, if in fact the concrete example that is being given to people is that they may, and that they should continue using this substance. So we do protest the Minister's lack of action on that, and we can only hope that he will see his way clear to imposing that ban, as have other jurisdictions, at the earliest possible moment. Today wouldn't be too early, in our opinion. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(c) - the Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I have to thank the Minister for presenting to me the monthly

summary of environmental accidents, and he was very prompt in getting that to me and I do thank him for the consideration. However, in the letter to myself, he does indicate that the company or the individual involved in each incident is named in the report, and he asked me not to - he suggested that it is not the practice to publicly identify those individuals or companies, because that public identification may well, in fact, deter them from voluntarily reporting incidents in the future.

And the suggestion there is that I not release that information publicly, also, although I don't believe that it's spelled out. And I can only assure the Minister that I don't intend to betray the confidence at this time of this report until we have had such an opportunity to discuss this in further detail. I don't imagine that we will be able to do it during these estimates, but by correspondence and by conversation over the next little while, but I do want to speak to the issue. And the issue is two-fold in this instance.

No 1, we have talked in some great detail over the past few days in this department's estimates about the right of the public to know. The Minister has recognized that right byre-imposing an information officer, which was taken out of the system by the previous Minister shortly after the change in government. The Minister has recognized the importance of the public knowing; he has indicated that there will be courses going into schools; they are doing all that is in their power to make certain that the public understand the significance, understand the details, of the environmental concerns that we all have.

This is an important part of the process. And if you will recollect, Mr. Chairperson, you will note that we have supported him very strongly in that process, that we have agreed that it is integral to the whole success of his operation, that the public know specifically and fully the details of the hazards that they face.

We have spoken to it in the context of the workplace, we have spoken to it in the context of the environment, and yet we have a statement of policy by the Minister that they do not want the public to know full details as to environmental accidents and environmental incidents, because it may deter the individuals that must report, or should report these, from voluntarily reporting such in the future.

So what that does, in fact, is it allows a company that may, on three or four or five occasions, and I haven't had time to go over this report in detail to determine if that is the case, so I'm speaking in a hypothetical sense now, but it may allow that company to continue on with sloppy work habits that may be resulting, or sloppy work practices that may be resulting in spills, without public pressure being brought to bear on these particular companies, or individuals as the case may be, because the public doesn't know.

Now, I'm certain that the Minister is bringing pressure to bear on these, and I again will commend him in those actions. I am certain he is sitting down, if there is an instance of one individual or one company, or one industry, creating many of the problems that are listed in this report, that he would sit down and say, you have to clean up your act. There is a problem here, I have a responsibility to the environment of this province, and therefore I am recommending very strongly that you put in practice such mechanisms as to forestall and prevent such occurrences in the future.

But without the clout of legislation, without the clout of regulations, without the clout of some statutory mechanism to do that, the Minister is at a disadvantage. We have talked to that subject, also. But if the Minister had the public behind him on this, that would provide him with additional clout. That would provide him with an additional pressure that he could place on individuals, corporations and companies that may be, in fact, not following all the proper procedures all the time.

So what I would suggest to the Minister is that he review his policy of not making these names public; I will be corresponding with him, and until such a time as we have reached an impasse in our conversations and transfer of correspondence, I will not make those public. I'm not saying when that should happen, but I do believe that there is a responsibility upon the Minister to allow the public full access to information such as this, and will try to encourage him to make that decision on his own in the future. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

JORGENSON : If I may just make one comment on the member's statement. I think that if he carefully reviews, if he hasn't already, I'm sure he will, the list of accidents, he will indicate, although certain companies are mentioned quite frequently, it is the franchised dealers that to a large extent, it is on their premises to a large extent that the accidents have taken place, and in most cases, I would venture to suggest that the accident was a result of human error. Much as we would like to, it seems very difficult to presume that one can correct that by legislation.

We hope that the losses - and indeed there certainly are losses every time there is a spill of that nature, to the individual and the company involved - will caution them to make sure that more adequate precautions are taken during the normal course of the delivery of the product, or the storage of the product, or the transfer of the product.

We trust that that lesson alone is sufficient alone to discourage or to minimize the number of accidents, but in addition to that, as I have pointedout to my honourable friend, we are bringing in amendments to The Clean Environment Act this year with a hope that perhaps we can further minimize the incidence of spills and accidents. 3225

Monday, 5 May, 1980 MR. COWAN: Again, Mr. Chairperson, we commend the initiative and reserve judgement on the actual implementation of that initiative until such a time as we have had opportunity to review it and examine it. On the report - and I won't mention the name of either the community or any other specifics - there is an environmental accident report in July of 1979 in regards to two 5-gallon cans of a herbicide being spilled in a village within the province. Can the Minister indicate if he knows what herbicide that was and if it was 2,4,5-T or a similar substance? MR.

JORGENSON: No, I couldn't answer that question. If that accident took place in the farming area, in all likelihood it was 2,4-D, or 2,4,5-D, which is a variation of 2,4-D, which is not considered a dangerous chemical, because that is the chemical that is most widely used in the rural areas as a weed control measure. MR.

COWAN: I will just assure the Minister that we are trying to pass through as quickly as we can these estimates, so that we can go on to other estimates that are coming before the House, and also at the same time assure the public that if we do not mention a specific item or a specific concern at this time, it does not mean that it either takes less prominence in our own minds or that we do not intend to pursue it in the future. We just wish to point out that there is only so much time that we feel that we can expect of the Minister in any one department.

We will continue those conversations on privately, as the Minister knows we have in the past. I would ask a couple of other questions. One, I would like to go back to a statement the Minister made in regards to sampling of the stack at Flin Flon. I believe the context of the statement was, the staff representative for the United Steel Workers in Flin Flon had written a letter to the Clean Environment Division and they had asked, why is it that the stack is only sampled once a year, and I asked that question of the Minister one evening during the estimates.

The Minister came back that the fact was that the stack is a tall stack and happens to be 825 feet tall, and that there was difficulty in getting people to sample that stack. I would just ask the Minister, at that time I had very little knowledge of how that sampling takes place, but in the meanwhile have been able to determine, through my trip to Flin Flon and asking people there, that there is in fact an elevator that takes people up to the stack.

There is an outer shell and an inner shell, and it is in between the inner shell, and that electricians, say, go up that stack on an average of once a week, or a couple of times a month in order to check out lights, in order to check out other installations that may be necessary to run checks on. Why is it not at that same time other individuals are going up so that they may monitor the stack? Is there a technical problem in regard to that, since it is obviously not the problem with getting people to climb that stack, which both he and I had thought at that time. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, I have just been advised that we do have a position open for a stack sampler right now and that competition has been running for some time. We are unable to get any applicants. So it would seem to me that it is not the kind of position that people rush to fill. It may be necessary to add some incentive to that position in order to get somebody to do it. MR.

COWAN: What the Minister poses is then a difficult problem but the fact is that corporations and governments alike have been able to get people to do some fairly onerous tasks from time to time and I would suggest to him that it is indeed within their ability to hire a stack sampler. I am not commenting on how they should do it, but I would hope . . . MR. JORGENSON: We just simply advertise. MR.

COWAN: I would hope that they would do that very soon and that sampling would take place on a more regular basis than once a year in regard to especially that stack and other stacks that may be emitting pollutants into the air. In last year's estimates, the Minister at that time indicated that there was a study being done on arsenic contamination in the Snow Lake area. I would "ask the Minister if that study has been completed and if it is available for perusal by the opposition. MR. JORGENSON: The member raises a question that has not been brought to my attention. I will have to get the information on it. Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that we hope to have that particular report ready by the end of this summer. MR. COWAN: Can the Minister indicate now if they have found high levels of arsenic in the area. MR. JORGENSON: Suspect, I am told. MR. COWAN: Would those levels be from the gold­ mining operation that has ceased operation in that area several decades ago? MR. JORGENSON: Yes. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairperson, that would tend to indicate that either there was widespread contamination of arsenic at the time, or that there is still aresenic in the area that is being stored and that may be seeping into the water system.

I would ask the Minister if any research has been done to determine if arsenic is being stored in the area, and if so, under what conditions that is being stored. The reason I bring this up is that we are all familiar with the Yellowknife arsenic instance and the fact that there is some concern now that arsenic will be stored in abandoned underground mine sites at that area, mine shafts and drifts and stopes, and that there is some concern that it may eventually work its way into the ground water system in that area. I would ask the Minister if we are faced with the same potential problems in the Snow Lake area?

MR. JORGENSON: I am advised that we are not aware of any arsenic being stored at the site, but we are concerned about the tailings and it is in that area that we are concentrating our investigations. 3226

Monday, 5 May, 1980 MR. COWAN: Perhaps it is premature but I will ask the Minister at any rate now, and we may have to discuss it at next year's estimates, or at a time when that report becomes available, but can the Minister indicate if there has been any consideration given to removing the tailings or to neutralizing the tailings so that they will not erode off into the water system. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, we will await the report, which should contain some recommendations, before we make a final decision as to what we will do. MR.

COWAN: Will the Minister make copies of that report available to residents of the area who have expressed a concern to me? MR. JORGENSON: I see now reason why we can't. I can think of no good reason why the report can't be made available. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Of course, I would appreciate a copy, if possible, so that we can go over it. Is the Minister's department now conducting surveys of a similar nature foreither arsenic or other chemicals that may be entering the environment as a result of mining operations in the province? MR.

JORGENSON: The monitoring that is being done is being done with respect to the tailings that are being produced by the mines, and it is in that area that the monitoring is being conducted. MR. COWAN: I would ask the Minister if monitoring is being done of areas like God's Lake where there was a mining operation, a gold-mining operation, in fact, a number of years ago, a similar situation that has occurred in Snow Lake where there may well indeed be arsenic contamination of the area as a result of that gold-mining operation in the 1930s, I believe.

It was God's Lake Gold Mine that was at least partially owned by Sherritt-Gordon Mines at the time, who had closed down their Sheridan operation because of low copper prices and had at that point gone into gold mining and had built and operated a mine in the God's Lake area. I am not certain whether there will be an arsenic problem there but I would ask the Minister if his department has attempted to determine if such exists and if so, if there is a report available on that? MR. JORGENSON: Not as yet, Mr. Chairman. There is a bit of a backlog and we are attempting to catch up to it.

It is on the list of those that we intend to do some investigations. We intend to do all of the mines, whether they are currently in existence or have been abandoned. It may take a little while to get around to all of them. MR. COWAN: I would just ask the Minister then what process is being followed in regard to these surveys. Are they taking water samples; are they taking samples of the tailings; are they in fact taking samples to determine if the arsenic has worked its way up through the food chain to human beings in the area and, if so, in what concentrations? MR. JORGENSON: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that all of these things are being tested, the effluent, the tailings, and the water itself. MR. COWAN: Then finally I would ask the Minister if there are tests being done on residents of the area to determine arsenic levels that they may have encountered as a result of living in close proximity to potentially contaminated lakes and rivers? MR. JORGENSON: I am advised that up to this point, we haven't uncovered any reason to conduct that kind of an investigation. If my honourable friend can bring some evidence that it may be necessary, we could start conducting those kinds of tests. MR.

COWAN: While I don't have evidence that there is in fact contamination of human beings as a result of living next to arsenic-contaminated sources, water sources in particular in Manitoba, we do know from examples and experiences in other jurisdictions that if you do have high levels of arsenic present in the environment, there is some suggestion that those may make their way through the food chain and through direct contact into residents of the areas.

So I would suggest that without my having to bring forward specific information, it would be incumbent upon the Minister, in light of that experience and in light of the problems that have been encountered in the Northwest Territories, etc., to conduct those studies, to initiate those studies on his own initiative so that we can then be assured that there is no problem rather than having to first prove the problem before we do conduct the survey into how extensive that problem is. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, if our surveys indicate that we are reaching hazard levels in any given area that, I think, would be a fairly natural corollary and we would then certainly undertake to conduct tests on humans. MR. COWAN: I would ask the Minister then if any surveys have indicated that those levels might be present or that those levels are suspected to be present in any of the areas in Manitoba. MR. JORGENSON: Not so far, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(c). The Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes, Mr. Chairperson.

Well we are jumping around a bit and I would just, in hoping to conclude that portion of the discussion unless my colleagues have something else to say, is to indicate that we see a need for these sorts of surveys to be conducted. We see a need for them to be conducted in all due haste because of the knowlege that we have gained over the past number of years in regard to experiences of this nature in other jurisdictions.

I would hope that the Minister would expand upon them as soon as is possible and I understand or I would suspect that with their new laboratory they may well be able to do that, to push more samples through in a shorter period of time, so I would hope to be able to discuss a number of these areas at next year's estimates. 3227

Monday, 5 May, 1980 In the meanwhile we can only suggest that the residents be made aware of the survey results as a matter of course because they do find out that the surveys are being conducted, especially in the smaller communities in northern Manitoba. It's hard to have a person come in from a government agency and do testing and sampling without most people in the community knowing what it is they are doing. It's hard to keep that sort of information from them and I don't believe that we should attempt to.

So what I would suggest happen is that when the Minister is conducting surveys in the area, that perhaps they call a town meeting to suggest that they will be conducting the surveys and why they are conducting the surveys and allow the residents an opportunity to voice their concerns. You may well find out that they are experiencing difficulties that may be associated with the contaminate that you are dealing with which would help you no doubt in your survey.

You won't find out unless you ask them specifically and you should ask them at some point or another to determine if they or members of their families have shown these sorts of symptoms. I would suggest that when you go into a community or an area to do the sampling that you hold a hearing similar to a Clean Environment Commission hearing. Say we are in here to do this survey; please don't become alarmed; please don't become overly concerned, it's part of a normal practice, although we do believe that there may be a problem here.

We are trying to determine the extent of it and we will be reporting back to you at such and such a date, so that they know full well that they can expect the results from you. The Minister knows full well what I am talking about in light of the MacGregor incident, that communities can get wrong information, can get correct information, can get all sorts of information that they don't have the ability as a collective community to deal with because they haven't been tied into the process at the right time or right from the start.

I would only suggest that those public meetings become a matter of course to serve a number of purposes. One is to allay any fears that may be created; No 2 is to advise a community of when they can expect the results; No 3 is to involve the community in the test results because many of those communities have long-time residents who may be able to provide you with information that you would not get from other sources.

I had opportunity when flying back from Flin Flon to sit next to the environmental director from lnco, and in our discussions with him he suggested that lnco was now doing a very extensive survey on the sintering plants in regards to determining the carcinogenic properties of nickel. The problem that they've found is once they went back ten years the records became very few and far between, that the record keeping a number of years ago was not comparable to record keeping today.

What they had to do was then go around to each individual worker who had been there during that period of time and say, what were conditions like? Was it this dusty or was it that dusty or was itdustier than that? And they had to build up a case file going back three or four decades on the basis of personal opinions of workers who had worked in the plant. The reason I bring that forward is you may indeed have to build up the same sort of case file in regards to how much of the contaminate was released into the environment - was there a pipe running straight into the lake at such and such a time?

The workers who had worked in those plants and who are still long-term residents of those communities can be able to provide you with some very extensive and detailed information just from their memory, so you tie them into the process in that way. And, of course, we are both in agreement that the public should have as full and complete data as they can on the hazards that they may face, so that is of course another reason for having them involved right from the start.

And I can suggest that at the end of the investigation or at a point during which the investigation seems to be passing from one stage to another, that the community also be called in to discuss the matters that may have� been found and to provide input as well as output in regards to the study. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, having been raised in a small community myself, I understand what my honourable friend is saying about not being able to have a government inspector of some kind moving in there without everybo(jy in town knowing what he is doing.

I thank him for reminding me to practice what I have been preaching to my colleagues about holding meetings in areas where government projects are being undertaken so that the full and complete knowlege of the nature of that project can be given to those people, and I most certainly, since I do believe in this practice, will insure that is carried on in the future whenever we move into an area to do tests.

I think it is an excellent idea because the thing that can happen, as my honourable friend has pointed out, is that if wrong information gets around and one rumor starts building upon another one then you have a completely distorted picture of what the objective of the exercise is and it is far better to have that straightened out right at first so that everybody knows exactly what is happening. I thank my honourable friend for reminding to do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(c)( 1), the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

I would like to talk a bit about what is happening at the Pinawa Station in respect to reports that may be coming to the Minister in regard to environmental accidents. I had asked him the question in the House during the question period and had not pursued further in that particular instance awaiting this opportunity to discuss it during the estimates procedure.

I would ask the Minister if he can indicate if the department does in fact have in its possession reports of accidents and incidents involving radioactivity or involving other environmental hazards that have occurred at Pinawa and what is being done with those, and does the Minister intend to make them public? If not, why not would be the following question, of course. MR. JORGENSON: The publicizing of a report of accidents within the confines of Atomic Energy property themselves, that is their responsibility. We 3228

Monday, 5 May, 1980 do have continuing meetings with them in which environmental or accidents, whether it takes place inside or outside are discussed. But the ones that we do get a report on are the accidents that take place which involve the environment outside the area comprised of Atomic Energy and we are then completely informed and there are reports on those particular accidents, but that's the only ones that we do have. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

While we were talking about that Whiteshell plant, has the Minister heard any complaints from the company or from any of the workers with respect to health problems incurred by any of the workers who are at that site? MR. JORGENSON: At the Pinawa plant? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. MR. JORGENSON: No, I wouldn't be the one to be receiving those reports. If they were mports dealing with health problems of the workers i11 that area, I would presume they'd go to the Workplace, Safety and Health people in the Department of Labour. MR.

COWAN: They would actually go to the federal Department of Labour in that regard, and that's something that I would dearly love to discuss with somebody, but I don't think this is th1e appropriate time nor place to discuss it. But any workplace incidences, accidents, or concerns woulld go through the federal department. As a matter of fact, for the information of the Member for Rossmere, there is a cohort study that is being done in regard to determining any adverse effects of low level radiation on the workers at Pinawa.

I'm not certain whether it's tied in to studies that are being dlone at other nuclear establishments, but I do know that they are doing one in specific regard to Pinawa, and we should expect those results 20 years from now, because that's what they have to do in that particular instance, to allow for the time' lag between exposure to low level radiation and potEmtial hazards that may show up down the road at some other time.

I would ask the Minister, what is the flow process for a report that comes to him from the department, and I'll speak in specific terms now, because it was a matter that we had addressed to the previous Minister during the estimates procedum and during the question period in the House, and 'that is, there was an incident that occurred in regard to the spillage of some radioactive contaminated water outside of the confines of the plant, although there is some indication that it was kept on the property itself, it did not enter the public system.

I asked the Minister, in the question period, I believe, and I'm not certain whether I followed it up in the estimates procedure or not, but I know I asked the Minister in the question period whether or not he was expecting a report on that, and he indicated that yes, he was expecting a report on that, and that in fact, they were expecting reports on other incidents that may have occurred, if such did occur.

In other words, what they were asking for was a detailed, compiled list of accidents that may have occurred at the Pinawa stations, so that they would have a better knowledge of exactly what was happening there. I would ask the Minister if he has received that yet, or if the previous Minister has received it, and if it is in his files. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, we were advised of that particular spill, as I have indicated, and our people were there, as they are in every case that a spill of that nature is reported to us, and a report is compiled.

My understanding is that Atomic Energy will be releasing a report on that particular matter very soon. I'm not sure just how soon is, but my honourable friend has been in politics long enough to know that. MR. COWAN: Just so that I am straight in my own mind, and the record is straight, that would be the spill that took place in regard to radioactive contaminated water that made it into a drainage ditch system within the . . . MR. JORGENSON: That's the only one that's taken place since I assumed this portfolio.

That's the only one that I'm aware of, because that's the only one that has taken place, to my knowledge, since I assumed the responsibilities for this portfolio. MR. COWAN: Perhaps we're not speaking about the same incident then, because the incident I'm addressing myself to occurred when the previous Minister was in the portfolio, because he was the one whom we directed questions to during the question period, as Minister of the Environment. Has there been one since that time that may have occurred during the Minister'sown experience and portfolio? MR. JORGENSON: There were two accidents.

One was in 1977, and that involved a coolant; the one that my honourable friend is referring to, he is right, it did not occur while I had the portfolio. It occurred when the previous Minister was responsible for this portfolio. That was in May 19 79. It's on that particular accident that the report will be made available shortly. MR.

COWAN: Yes, I would ask the Minister if, to his knowledge, and again, just so the record is certain, have there been any other incidents that would have resulted in potential possible or actual exposure to radioactive materials or contaminants to the general public at large, as a result of activities that were carried on either at Pinawa operation or that were carried on as a result of the Pinawa operation being where it's at? MR. JORGENSON: None that I know of that would have created a problem to the general public.

There have been problems inside, but they occur from time to time and they are handled internally by Atomic Energy. They are sort of housekeeping matters. MR. COWAN: As the Minister may have guessed, or anticipated, because he is good at that, I am thinking of some specific instances that have been either reported in the press or have been suggested to me by individuals who prefer to remain anonymous. One of course, is the incident where a tour was going through the facility, and a number of 3229

Monday, 5 May, 1980 school children, or one school child, I'm not certainly exactly of· the details, picked up some radioactive contamination on their clothes, and those clothes were then confiscated, he was given other clothes to take with him outside the plant, and those clothes were sent back to him at a later date. Although it did happen within the confines of the Pinawa establishment, it was exposure to a person not normally associated with the working s of that establishment. I would ask the Minister if he can confirm that.

There was a public press report as to that, and also indicate if he knows of any actions that have been taken to ensure that such incidents do not happen in the future to tourists. MR. JORGENSON: I don't know if my honourable friend has been through the Whiteshell research establishment, but as one goes through from one area to another, you are constantly monitored by machines to determine any radioactive material, and I believe it was on one occasion, and I've been through there several times, that one of the people in the party did have a positive response on his shoes, and he had to remove them.

So that is not an unusual thing, I think that's a pretty regular thing that is done, monitoring to ensure that people who are leaving a particular area are not carrying with them some contaminated material. MR. COWAN: In this instance, Mr.

Chairperson, if I recall the report correctly, and I don't have it before me, so I may not be 100 percent accurate in my recollection, but I do seem to remember that this person picked up a substance, that it was not a matter of something attaching itself to his shoe, but he had actually handled it and was in the process of either carrying it or had put it down and left it there, but had contaminated himself. Is that an accurate reflection of what had happened in that particular incident, according to the Minister's .. ? MR.

JORGENSON: I have no knowledge of that particular accident, but I suppose that that is possible. I think it would be highly unlikely that people would be picking things up, but I wouldn't want to make any comment as to whether or not that's a regular thing or not. I think not regular, but I suppose that under circumstances, it could happen. MR.

COWAN: There's another incident that was not reported in the press and that I have no way of substantiating, except by asking the Minister if he hasany knowledge of it, and asking him to check into it, and that involved a steam clean operation at a facility in the community that was using equipment from Pinawa. They had a hose there that was capable of handling the pressures that were necessary, and there was some fear that that hose might have been contaminated and was brought out into the general environment.

Now, I would put a strong caveat on that statement, because I have not been able to confirm it either with conversations with individuals other than the person that explained it to me, or with conversations. with others who might have reason to know. But I would ask the Minister if there has been any report of such an occurrence that has come through his office. MR. JORGENSON: No, Mr. Chairman, I am advised that we know nothing of that particular incident. MR.

COWAN: Perhaps the Minister could take those sketchy details, which I have just presented to him, and ask if that was indeed the case - whoever the appropriate authority would be in this case, I don't know - but if he could ask and report back to me, either by correspondence or by the vehicle of the House, I would appreciate it. MR. JORGENSON: We will just take that particular question of my honourable friend's as notice. It will be in the record and at our next meeting with Atomic Energy we will see if we can't identify the two problems that he has raised. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further to that, Mr.

Chairperson, I would ask the Minister to, in those conversations, also to try and determine if there have been other incidents which we don't know of, because from time to time you hear a story, and that is exactly what it is, a story, and when you are dealing with subject of radioactivity, there is a fear that is sometimes justified, sometimes not so justified, but is always present, and one has to try to work with the knowledge that the stories that you are getting may in fact by elaborations and may be manifestations of that fear.

It is important also that we know all the facts, and that is why I bring it forward to the Minister, that is why I hope that he will bring it to the proper authorities at the station and will determine as to the correctness of the report that was given to me by an individual. It has also been noted that the station has in its possession, and I am not certain that I am using the proper terminology, but it has been referred to as a hazard report.

That report would be a report that would indicate and outline specifically what would happen in the case of a major problem at the plant, in the case that there was a total breakdown, or that there was a very large scale emergency. I would ask the Minister if his department has been made aware of that report, and if they have a copy of that report, and if they are under orders not to present that report, as I believe the facility itself is. MR.

JORGENSON: I am told that we are in the process of developing what are termed contingency plans with Atomic Energy, together with Emergency Measures, which my honourable friend is aware is now in the process of re-organization. That process is not completed, so I am unable to report with finality as to the nature of those plans, that will, I hope, await further developments until they are completed. I might say that report will be made public. MR. COWAN: In regards to the specific report though, the colloquial term for which I understand to be the hazard report, is the Minister's department in possession of that?

Has the Atomic Energy Commission made that report available to the Minister so that they know what the ramifications of a major accident would be for the Manitoba environment, and can therefore devise on their own, as well in conjunction and cooperation with other agencies, specific measures to deal with such an 3230

Monday, 5 May, 1980 occurrence if in the unlikely incident that it might happen? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, at this stage I am not aware of the existence of that report, there may well be. It may be made available to us or we may be made aware of it before our discussions are finalized on the overall plans. MR. COWAN: Is the Minister's department involved in any way in the discussions and the meetings that are going on in regard to the use of mine sites or the use of the Pinawa area for disposal of radioactive wastes? MR.

JORGENSON: No, we are not involved in those discussions, because we, as I said earlier, we agreed to the rental of the Crown land on the explict cond ition that it be not used for storage of radioactive waste material. MR. COWAN: Perhaps I missed that discussion while I was in Flin Flon and I don't want to go over ground that we have already covered, except to ask the Minister, are we talking in specific about the experimentation that the Atomic Energy Commission is suggesting might be done in the area? MR.

JORGENSON: The area in question was leased by Crown Lands, and it was leased by Crown Lands on the condition that it was going to be used for experimental purposes in determining rock formations and underground water formations in that particular area. The condition that was attached to the lease was that it was not to be used for storage of waste material. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. understand, following our discussions on Friday on 2,4,5-T, at which time the Minister indicated that he was considering a ban on the purchase of the product and since then there have been reports published to the effect that government departments had in fact on order a fair quantity of the chemical to be used in highway brush spraying and the like within the province of Manitoba. Has the Minister indicated what his position will be, now that the province has on order this chemical, in view of his statements of last week? MR. JORGENSON: That matter was dealt with before my honourable friend came in.

It was dealt with at length by the Member for Churchill. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(c) - the Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A few years back we had a problem with pollution of drinking water in the Birds Hill area. There was considerable research being done; they couldn't seem to find out what was causing this pollution, and I wonder if the problem has been solved and if the department has been able to ascertain just where the pollution was coming from and what is the present status of the drinking water situation in the Birds Hill area? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

JORGENSON: I am advised that particular contamination resulted from the underground storage of gasoline and it lead to the development of the regulations that, to the best of my knowledge, has now corrected that situation. MR. JENKINS: The Minister says that they have established regulations for the storage of gasoline. Would this be for service stations or where, say, a refinery is involved? MR. JORGENSON: Everybody. MR. JENKINS: On the underground storage of tanks. How often are these tanks inspected, then? Are they inspected by the department? MR.

JORGENSON: The tanks, as my honourable friend knows, are inspected regularly by inspectors and through the measuring of quantities in those tanks, they can tell whether or not there is a leak. And if there is a suspect leak, then action is taken to correct it. MR. JENKINS: Through you to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, is it the department that does the inspection? Is it the Environmental Control inspection staff that do the inspections? MR. JORGENSON: No, the individual himself does it with a dipstick and they have to keep records, which are then inspected.

The dipstick method will tell him, if he knows much he has sold or used, the dipstick will tell him if there is any that has leaked out. That is then reported and steps are taken to correct it. MR. JENKINS: How often do the service stations report to the department; is it on a monthly basis, every three months, six months? MR. JORGENSON: Every day, on a daily basis. MR. JENKINS: On a daily basis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Also, a couple years ago, we seemed to have a problem in East Selkirk with the drinking water in that area.

It never seemed to be able to be tracked down, whether it was a feedlot operation or whether it was sewage from a school. I wonder if the Minister could bring us up to date on that situation and whether the problem there is still the same as it was, or has it been ascertained where the pollution is coming from? MR. JORGENSON: There were a number of areas that were suspect. The school was one of them; the feedlot was a second one; and then some drainage was suspect.

We believe that the major source of contamination results from the proliferation of private sewage disposal sites in the area which are contaminating the underground supply. As you know, there are quite a number of homes scattered throughout that district. Their sewage fields are located throughout the entire area. There has been some corrective action taken with respect to some of what we considered to be known suspects, but this is a little more difficult one since it involves private 3231

Monday, 5 May, 1980 property. I expect that unless we are able to redesign all of the sewage fields and to correct that situation that exists in that area, the problem will not be completed eliminated, but it has been reduced considerably. MR.

JENKINS: It would probably be a dual jurisdiction, but what I am thinking about is, in new cottage areas that are being developed, what is the criteria and regulations that the department - I imagine it would be Public Health as well - with the installation of septic tank fields now, is it tighter than it was a few years ago and are we working towards the holding tank idea where the sewage is not spread out over an area and the emptying of these tanks periodically to make sure that the ground water in those areas are not being polluted. MR.

JORGENSON: If my honourable friend has ever talked to someone who attempts to get permission to install or to build a cottage in one of those areas and to install the sewage equipment, he will know that the regulations have been tightened considerably. I constantly get complaints from people who feel that they are too stringent. In addition to that, of course, the land use policies are going to make it more difficult to build in those areas to the extent that they have been building in the past.

There are quite stringent regulations and I am sure my honourable friend can find them in the regulation book if he chooses to look for them. They are contained in Manitoba Regulation 272-76. They deal with regulations under The Clean Environment Act respecting private sewage disposal systems. If he cares to look that one up, he will get a fairly complete idea of how stringent the regulations actually are. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(c) - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, a few minutes earlier when I asked the Minister about the issue, the reports that departments have been purchasing 2,4,5 -T, the Minister indicated to me this was extensively dealt with by the Member for Churchill when he was questioned by him. I spoke very briefly to the Member for Churchill and I still have some comments to make with respect to the government's and the Minister's position in this regard. On Friday, on initial questioning from myself, the Minister gave us the impression, or at least he left the impression that the government was moving very swiftly in this respect.

They were intending to ban the use of the chemical because they felt that in light of the controversy . . . MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, if I may just make one ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. JORGENSON: . . . correction here. I thought I made it reasonably clear �hat I was planning to recommend to Cabinet the action. Cabinet has not been involved in this at 1his stage. It has been my activities up to this point. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, while the Minister says Cabinet has not been involved, that it was his activities, that's right.

The Minister, upon furthering questioning during the period of our discussions, did move away from what I would have considered at least a fairly firm position that he took with respect to the banning of the chemical, and then started backing away even further, saying that before he would do anything, he will write a letter to his counterparts in the various Departments of Agriculture and the Minister responsible for Hydro and Highways, to see what kind of chemicals were in stock and that they should not be purchasing.

I understand from news reports over the weekend that in fact there have been tenders placed by the Minister of Government Services and the government as a whole in purchasing quantities of this chemical for use this summer.

Unless my information is wrong, from the news reports, if the Minister has clarified that, but if they are in fact accurate, then the Minister's statements really didn't mean very much on Friday, or there is certainly a lack of communication between himself and his colleagues within Cabinet who have jurisdiction over their various departments who, in fact, do purchase chemicals such as this for brush control.

The Minister indicated to us Friday that he would be recommending that a ban be placed and that his statements of Friday would, of course, lead distributors in Manitoba to get the hint that likely they should not be ordering any more quantity into the province of Manitoba , that certainly his statements of Friday would be enough direction to those distributors and users that likely the Government of Manitoba would be putting a ban on the product. It appears that the government position, as it now stands, to the public is saying, Do as I say but not as I do.

The Minister can get up and say, I, as Minister of Environment, am opposed to the use of this chemical because of the controversy that is surrounding it, and I am telling the people that I intend to put a ban, but I am not saying anything to my colleagues; let them tender it and let them use it. Does it give the impression to the public of Manitoba that this Minister has the concerns of the entire population at heart or is he merely saying, Well, it would be a nice thing to do but now that I have backed off that statement, maybe we should allow another year to go by.

I think there has to be some clarification given to us by the Minister of the Environment as to, really, what does he mean? He started from a very firm position on Friday, pulled away from that, reports that the government still is tendering and purchasing the product, and now he says, I was going to write letters to my colleagues. Is the Minister prepared to take any firm action now to rescind those tenders that have been called for by the government, to hold back. We weregiven the impression on Friday that all that was going to be used was what was in storage, the stocks that were there.

Certainly, if tenders have been called for, is it not incumbent on the Minister, after his statements earlier on Friday, that this matter be pulled back and not gone ahead with. I would like the Minister to give us some clarification on it. 3232

Monday, 5 May, 1980 It gave us the impression that there was action on behalf of this Minister of the Environment but, you know, we haven't had action. It appears that we have really gone backwards from his position on Friday. MR. JORGENSON: My honourable friend seems to be laboring under the impression that there is a considerable amount of this chemical that is being used by the private sector. There isn't. The major users of the chemical are government departments. I have asked those departments that I feel are maybe using the chemical to give me a report on what the present status is.

Until I have received the answers to those questions, I intend to take no further action. I intend to take action or intend to make a decision after I have received those reports from those departments. Up to this point, I haven't received them. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Minister can say that he will wait for those reports.

Is he not prepared, after making his statements on Friday that he is prepared to ban the use of the product - after reading the reports, can he not pick up the phone and check with his colleagues whether the Department of Government Services, on behalf of various government agencies, has in fact tendered for the chemical.

If they have in fact placed tenders, does the Minister not feel that only one phone call would do the advice and get the message across to his colleagues and to the departments that there is the intent of his department to recommend to Cabinet to ban this very chemical, that they should not even be ordering this chemical this year, let alone use the chemical that we recommended should be shipped back to the distributors on Friday. That's the action that he gave us the impression he was going to undertake, that he would in fact see what stocks were available.

He gave us the impression that, look, he would be in a more difficult position if he in fact would not use the chemical that was already in stock rather than trying to find a place to dispose of it, that may be a greater problem. That's what he indicated to us on Friday. It gave the impression that he was very firm in his osition. Is the Minister now denying that the government has not placed tenders for the purchase of the chemical? If they have, what is he intending to do about it? MR. JORGENSON: As I told my honourable friend, I don't know whether the departments have placed tenders.

That's the reason I sent out the communication. That is the reason I am asking them, to get that information. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, surely there must be a much easier or simpler method than writing a letter to a colleague whom he sits with in Cabinet to ask him whether his department is in fact tendering for the product, and if the department is in fact tendering for the product, is the Minister prepared to say, No, in terms of the controversy that is here, we are not prepared to use it. Recall your tenders and stop the purchasing of this product. Is the Minister prepared to do that? MR.

JORGENSON: The Minister has, in his communication with the department, has already advised them not to place any further orders until the matter has been decided upon. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister indicating now that the present calls for tender will be rescinded and there will be no further purchase of the product, other than what the Minister gave us on Friday? The Minister told us on Friday that he would look at the stocks that were presently there and see what action he would take on what was in stock. Today he is movingeyen away from that position.

He is already saying that there shall not be, or may not be any more tenders beyond what is already called for. Or is that what the Minister is saying? MR. JORGENSON: I have told my honourable friend what I placed in the memo to the Ministers, and I have asked them to provide me with certain information regarding their intentions. I have asked them, if they have not placed orders, to withhold orders until the matter has been decided upon. MR. URUSKI: Maybe I misunderstood the Minister. I just want to understand him quite clearly.

Is the Minister telling us that there will be no tenders for any products of 2,4,5-T that we have discussed, any purchases made by the government at the present time? MR. JORGENSON: I'm not sure yet, and I won't be sure until I have replies from the various departments as to whether or not those tenders have been placed already, or have they been received, or have they yet to go in. That's the information that I'm seeking. MR.

URUSK I: Can the Minister give us the assurance then, that in the event that the tenders have been called for and have not been opened, in fact the deadline has not been reached for the opening of the tenders, that the whole process will be aborted, that there will be no tenders called for and there will be no purchases made? MR. JORGENSON: As I indicated to my honourable friend, a decision, as yet, has not been made on this matter, and when the decision is made, then I will communicate with my honourable friend. MR.

URUSKI: Is the Minister then indicating to us, to myself, that he will in fact be purchasing the product and spraying, and using it in the province of Manitoba this year through governmental agencies? Is that what the Minister is telling me? MR. JORGENSON: My honourable friend is using his own language. I have simply told my honourable friend the action that I have taken, and we're waiting responses from the departments to make a final decision. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, it appears that the Minister certainly either is reluctant, has received some kind of marching orders from someone down the line over the weekend, because he certainly has moved away from his original position and the assurances that he gave, as I understood that he 3233

Monday, 5 May, 1980 gave on Friday, in my mind in any event, that he would be recommending a ban and that there would be no further purchases made, and he would be reviewing government's position with respect to stocks which may be on hand in government agencies; that was the extent of his investigation, that there would be no further purchases, and upon our urgin g, he would be reviewing what the governments would do if there were large stocks in any of the governmental agencies that were using them, namely hydro, highways, or water resources and agriculture.

Now he is saying, well, we've called for tenders, we are in effect not sure when we're going to do it, and we may be spraying this year. Well, Mr. Chairman, it appears that the Minister is really waffling on this issue. I thought that he was concerned with the controversy that has surrounded the use of this chemical, I thought he was sincere, and maybe he still is sincere if he clarifies, may be my misimpression that I have gotten from him, but it appears to be that he certainly has waffled on this issue, and he's backed right off. And the reason, I'm not certain what his reason is now.

He felt, and he said on Friday, if there is some doubt, he would rather be on the safe side of the issue, and rather be, I think if I recall the impression that he left, was that he would rather be safe than sorry, and that he would not use the chemical involved if there was any danger of its use. And that's the impression that he left. And now it appears that he has no intention ofliving up to those statements. He intends to move away from what he originally said to going ahead, since some departments have likely called for tenders and the use of that chemical will be continued. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman,., I can assure my honourable friend that my department will not be ordering any of the chemical. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCH AK: Mr. Chairman, dealing with hazardous chemicals, there is one other that has come to my attention that I would like to discuss with the Minister at this time, and it is formaldehyde. It appears there is some evidence of incidents of formaldehyde poisoning. An

article appeared in the Saturday issue of the Regina Leader Post dealing with this matter. Formaldehyde poisoning, caused by foam insulation. Foam insulation, Mr. Chairman, in the homes. Now, I realize that at this particular point, in view of the fact that formaldehyde has been used as an insulator for quite some time, that the problem may have reached a level which is beyond this Minister's control, and may perhaps have to involve the Ministers of Health, Labour and others, but be that as it may, it certainly doesn't absolve this Minister from shouldering his share of the responsibility.

To acquaint the Min ister with what has been discovered, apparently there was an incident in Saskatoon of formaldehyde poisoning. A family was forced to leave its home -because three children, ages nine, six and three, were entered hospital more than 50 times due to exposure to formaldehyde fumes from the insulation. And the

article goes on to state that among the problems resulting from formaldehyde poisoning are respiratory distress, extreme swelling of lymph nodes, skin rashes that can cover the whole body, birth defects, cancer, irritation of the eyes, nose and throat, headaches and nausea. And this apparently happened in a home which is more than 20 years old and insulated last December.

Apparently some of the symptoms reached the point where a doctor suggested taking out some of the really enlarged lymph nodes in the children, and since this exposure to fumes started three or four or five months ago, the children have been taken to the hospital emergency department more than 50 times because of the symptoms. And apparently there is medical evidence to indicate that illnesses of this kind can be attributed to the inhalation of formaldehyde vapour.

There has also been another case in Saskatchewan where a similar case was discovered, and that was in a school gymnasium where formaldehyde insulation was used to insulate it, in some community east of the city of Regina. Now, although it may be true, Mr. Chairman, that at this point there may not have been too many cases of formaldehyde poisoning being uncovered, but that doesn't prove that the problem doesn't exist. It may only indicate that at time we are not aware of it, but that the problem may be of much larger proportions than we know it to be.

This morning, I spoke to an insulating contractor, one who claims he does not use formaldehyde in insulation, but he uses something else, and he tells me that this could happen, it could happen for a number of reasons - (1) improper application, and particularly in the application of formaldehyde in very old homes where there might be cracks and what­ not in the walls, and upon contact with air, and I'm not a chemist, and I want to apologize to you Mr.

Chairman that I cannot really explain the process that happens in accurate, scientific terms, but anyway, something does occur which does cause the formaldehyde to evaporate, to convert back into a gas and escape into the environment. Now, this contractor also told me that there is a danger in using old formaldehyde. Whether it causes exactly the same problem or not, I don't know, but he did tell me that the formaldehydes are date stamped, and there is a date beyond which it is not recommended to use it.

I want to stress the point that I don't know whether the date limit is for health reasons or for some other reason, but he seems to think that there might be some health factor connected with putting the date deadline on it. And he tells me thatit's not uncommon for many contractors to use formaldehyde beyond the prescribed or the set safe useage date that may be stamped on the drum. And usually they are smaller contractors who buy a franchise to go out and insulate homes, and the deal normally is, you buy the equipment, and you buy a certain stock of formaldehyde.

And they are, of course, given the assurance by the franchise seller that because of the popularity of the program, because of the fact that governments have recognized the value of insulation from an energy conservation point of view, that the stuff virtually sells itself and if one were to go out knocking on doors this afternoon, by dinner time you will have enough customers to insulate all the homes, 3234

Monday, 5 May, 1980 to use up all the entire stock of formaldehyde that you buy with your initial purchase. Of course, it doesn't quite happen that way. So some of the contractors are stuck with several drums of formaldehyde beyond the date marked on the barrel, and they use it. So he tells me that it may be the use of old formaldehyde which contributes toward this problem. Now, as I've said, Mr.

Chairman, I know that we have not heard of too many cases of formaldehyde poisoning, but that, in itself, doesn't prove that the problem doesn't exist, but it may be that there might be varying degrees of poisoning in the milder form, but the occupants of the homes themselves may not be aware of what their real problem is, and hence aren't doing anything about it.

Or in other cases, they may go to a doctor and the presence of formaldehyde in the walls of the home might be the last thing the doctor would think of and might diagno se the ailment somewhat differently , or attribute the symptoms to some other causes, and prescribe a treatment that doesn't really solve the problem.

So hence I would urge the Minister to enquire into this matter to satisfy himself and satisfy the people of Manitoba that, on one of a number of points, either that whatever formaldehyde was used in the insulation of Manitoba homes had been applied in a safe manner and that the occupants of those homes are in no danger of any hazard to their health, or in fact, life, or if the Minister should find that there is some evidence of formaldehyde poisoning or a risk of formaldehyde poisoning, then I would urge the Minister to take the appropriate action to discontinue the use of formaldehyde in the insulation of homes in our province.

The Minister may say that that may be somewhat beyond his scope of authority, that the chemical was federally approved and given its blessings by the federal government, well, in that case then, I would urge the Minister to take the matter up with the federal authorities and do whatever he can to discontinue the use of this chemical. I want to tell the Minister that if he were to pursue such a course of action, that he certainly would not be alone.

Apparently the use of formaldehyde as an insulator has been banned in some of the states of United States of America, a few anyway, and I understand that there are about 14 or 15 others that are considering banning it, which does make it a significant number. Then I would also want to point out to the Minister, if he is going to give us undertaking that he will do that type of a check to determine whether or not there is any risk to our health being caused by the use of formaldehyde as an insulator, not to overlook other buildings which are high in the formaldehyde content, namely, mobile homes.

Apparently formaldehyde based glues are used on plywoods and wood veneers, which by and large constitute 90 percent of the structure of a mobile home. I am advised that formaldehyde based glues are used in large quantities, as one could well imagine, in making a sheet of plywood must be a fair amount of glue that is used in gluing the plys of the woods. There, too, there might be some cases of either defective construction of plywood or whatever, which may lead to formaldehyde poisoning to some degree.

I would urge the Minister himself and perhaps in conjunction with his colleagues, because he might want to involve the Minister of Health in this matter, to check into the matter to see whether there is any signficant level of formaldehyde poisoning. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, I shouldn't say significant level , because I don't think that any level of poisoning of any kind should be tolerated.

I would suggest to the Minister that if he shouldfind even the slightest shred of evidence of formaldehyde poisoning that he should then exercise whatever authority he has to put a stop to the use of this chemical which, on the basis of medical evidence, appears to be poisonous. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, as a result of the publicity, and I'm not sure if my honourable friend missed it last fall, given to this subject, we had a number of people, and we invited people to phone us if they felt that formaldehyde was suspect in any change in their health.

We did have a number of calls, about 26 in fact, people called and we tested their homes, and in only 2 of those 26 cases did we find any minor amounts of formaldehyde, and our health authorities indicated to us that they were not considered to be hazardous. In all the other 24 cases, there was no evidence of formaldehyde poisoning, so there were other things that were causing the problems other than urea-formaldehyde. The matter has been looked at, there is a program.

If people feel that there may be a problem, all they have to do is to contact our department and we will have someone out there to test to make sure that there is no problem as a result of the use of formaldehyde insulation. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, I am not convinced that approach or that course of action is really good enough, to simply invite responses from the public, in other words saying, look, there is formaldehyde insulation being used and if any of you are suffering from the following systems or feel that your health might be in some way adversely affected by the presence of formaldehyde insulation in the walls of your home, contact us. Because, in the first place, with some of the people it might be too late, the damage might have reached the stage at which it is irreparable.

Secondly, I am not certain that every individual might be able to detect the effect of formaldehyde gas on his system early enough. It would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that if the Minister really wanted to satisfy himself that there is no danger in the use of formaldehyde as an insulator, and I want to remind the Minister again that it appears that there are many states that are concerned about it, and I am sure that the respiratory system of the people living in those states is no different from the respiratory system of the people living in Manitoba.

Therefore, I would suggest to the Minis ter that he take a more aggressive approach to the matter to satisfy himself as to the level of formaldehyde poisoning. He knows or his colleague, the Minister in charge of MHRC, could tell him which homes have been insulated. From that point he can determine which homes have been insulated with formaldehyde. There are various ways and means that the Minister can resort to. He could ask the people, he could ask the contractors, he can get a list of all the 3235

Monday, 5 May, 1980 homes that were insulated with formaldehyde, and he could have a check done on those homes, particularly older homes. I am thinking of homes in the core city area, many of them owned by absentee landlords, a lot of them are older homes, not in the best of shape, rented out to people at a very low income level, and those may not always be the people who will be the first in line to come forth and complain of whatever. They are the last ones to speak to the authorities to complain.

The Minister knows which homes they are and do a check, and I am sure that our technology has advanced to the point where a person could do a check of the air within a home to determine the level or the quantity of formaldehyde contained in the air. I think that that would be a more effective initial approach to the problem, rather than just simply saying to the people, it has been drawn to our attention that there might be formaldehyde escaping into the atmosphere of a home, and if any of you think that there might be formaldehyde in your home and that you have been adversely affected, let us know. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 5.(c) - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I would just going briefly through the Environmental Accident

Summary and noted the predominance of the environmental accidents in the rural areas, in the northern areas, and thefact that there were very few that were reported in the Winnipeg vicinity. Most of those that were reported in the Winnipeg vicinity were either reported by the Winnip eg Fir e Department or by Manitoba Hydro. In other words, there were very few private industry reports of spillages and environmental accidents in Winnipeg.

One would naturally assume that there would be more in an industrial area than th€re would be in a non-industrial area, yet we see quite a few being reported up north, in the rural area, and not so many being reported in Winnipeg. I would ask the Minister if that would indicate that there might be a failing in the reporting mechanism right now, and if that is one of the reasons for which they are beefing up, so to speak, their reporting mechanisms, or they have directed that they might be beefing up those reporting mechanisms in their upcoming legislation. MR. JORGENSON: No necessarily, Mr. Chairman.

There is the possibility and I think the probability that in the rural areas there is a great deal more of the transfer of the material than there is in the city of Winnipeg. What I mean by that, the material is brought in to the Bulk Stations, and from the Bulk Stations it goes out to Service Stations, and then out to individual farms. Each individual farm has a tank of his own, and so, with the number of transfers, one could, I presume, logically expect that there would be more accidents in the rural areas as a result of that. MR. COWAN: Again, a brief perusal of the report would seem to indicate otherwise.

Most of the accidents are not transfers,. but that they are some vehicular accidents, and one could expect those to occur in the rural areas, but also to occur within the city in that there are also a number of accidents that are as a result of some sort of reportable incident other than the accident itself. In other words, a vehicular traffic accident is reportable regardless of what is being carried by the vehicle that does have that accident, and so one would assume that perhaps that is why we are getting a preponderous of those sorts of accidents reported here.

I would ask the Minister if he is satisfied that we are getting full reports in regard to spillages and accidents in the city of Winnipeg by private industry? MR. JORGENSON: One of the reasons why we are bringing in amendments is to ensure that we get a more complete reporting of accidents. I don't think that we anticipate that we are getting a full reporting, either in the rural areas or in the urban areas. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(c) - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: I believe there is enough time to go very briefly into this.

I don't know whether we have to go into it in more detail or not, that will remain to be seen. The Department of the Environment did do a number of studies in regard to the lead pollution emanating from Canadian Bronze last summer. I would ask the Minister if it is intended to continue those sorts of studies this summer, and if so, what mechanisms have been put in place to ensure that they are carried out in what I would hope to be a more satisfactory manner than last summer. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, we are going to continue the program that was done last year, and if I may, I have a

summary of the program, if my honourable friend would like me to put in on the record, I will do that. There will be four ambient air monitoring stations located around each of the secondary lead smelters. One ambient air monitoring station will be established at Lord Nelson School; the south air monitoring station around Canadian Bronze Company Limi ted will be at Weston School; background ambient air monitoring stations will be established at existing NAPS stations, 70 11 8 and 70 1 19.

All ambient air monitoring stations will consist of duplicate monitors and sampling frequency will be one 24-hour sample, five days per week. The 1979 Soil Survey will be repeated in 1980, with sampling to be taken at two-inch depths. Vegetation sampling on vegetable species in the western area and tree foliage at selected sites will be undertaken. Soil sampling will be conducted on transects away from each emission source. A snow survey will be implemented on existing sites. Stack sampling at each emission source will be conducted. MR.

COWAN: I would ask the Minister, if in his opinion, the results of soil sampling that were compiled by the department last year represented a hazard to persons in the area, and if the results of vegetation sampling represented a specific hazard to those who might be growing gardens in the area and eating the food from those gardens. I bring this to the Minis ter's attention, as I have in the past, because last summer I made a foot-trip through that area and noticed that some houses in very close proximity to the Canadian Bronze Smelter were indeed growing gardens in the back, and therefore 3236

Monday, 5 May, 1980 might be producing food vegetation in specific, that was contaminated with lead from the emissions of the plant. I would ask the Minister, if in his opinion, there is necessity of concern on the part of the residents in that area as to their garden produce. MR. JORGENSON: As my honourable friend may be aware, last year we didn't conduct any samples on vegetables, we did on tree foliage, and that is why SUPPLY - HEAL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order.

I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 61 of the main estimates, Department of Health, Resolution No. 79, Clause 5, Manitoba Health Services Commission. Item under discussion is (

c) Hospital Program-pass. The next item is (d) - the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: On Friday last the Minister in his remarks was quite candid. He expressed a concern, a problem, and stated that he didn't have all the answers.

Now he suggests that many others if they were candid, would agree with him, feel that if the 690 beds in acute care hospitals were now occupied by either personal care homes or extended treatment patients, if they were all released, these people, if they were all made available for acute care; also if those beds that are closed now, if they were all open and made available; and as well, take into consideration the beds in the rural area, and the acute beds of course that are not occupied because the occupancy is less; he felt that if this was the case, they'd all be filled in no time.

I certainly agree with the Minister, but having said that you can carry this quite far. You could reduce them by another 500 and say, well if these beds were available they'll all be filled, that is true. So I think that what we need is leadership in the long-range policy of this government, which it is not doing at this time. That is to determine - I was going to say, once and for all - not once and for all, because it has to be, I think, considered every year, every so often it has to be continually looked at.

But I think it has to be determined by the experts, and the guidelines, and by taking into consideration the beds available in other jurisdictions, then we must decide how many acute beds we will have, and then we should go from there. Now the Minister on one hand is saying - what he is saying is true, that they would be filled, but it seems quite obvious that the Minister is not too unhappy about this situation, to see these beds there. There is no doubt thatby the actions of the government it will lead to this also, because there is no personal care beds built, or very few.

Some were authorized, but they haven't been built. There's a large waiting list so there'll be people there, and then with the budget allowed to the hospital, it is certainly not keeping up with inflation, so that would mean that there would be a tendency to close beds. The different hospitals have to work within a budget that they can't possibly live with, so they are going to try to do anything, in fact close beds at times. Anybody we are doing it on vegetables this year, to get a better reading on that.

With respect to the soil samples that were undertaken, our medical people tell us there is no serious hazard. There is no question that the presence is there, but at this point they don't consider it to be a hazard. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think I will call it 4:30. I am leaving the Chair for Private Members' Hour and will return at 8:00 p.m. that understands the situation knows that it is much easier when you are short-staffed to have people that are exactly personal care patients and you can get away with lower staff. That is exactly what is being done.

I think that the Minister should determine how many acute beds we are going to have and go from there. The Minister is saying or hinting anyway that there might be too many, but that is the trouble - I have been accused many times by the Minister and members of the government of wanting confrontation. I think I am starting to understand now that there is no confrontation because the Minister is on the side of everybody, and there is no decision made, there are no policies announced.

Sometimes you have to say no, sometimes you have to be firm when you have done all the research and when it is arrived at the policy or a number or something that will be done, it should be announced, and then I don't consider that confrontation. At least the people would know where they would stand.

The Minister on one hand is saying that there are too many of them and then I was reading the other day, looking at some of the clippings, and there is one from The Tribune of February 29th, 1980, and the heading was Concordia Says Facility Plugged and I am not going to read the whole thing, but it says here, Hospital staff and administrators complained about the overcrowding last summer to Health Minister Bud Sherman and the Manitoba Health Services Commission.

Both admit. . . - that is the hospital and the Minister - . . .both admitted Concordia problems and said the hospital needs another 160 beds for fundamental primary care. If the Minister, on one hand, who can't say no, who is encouraging people, who wants to be on every side of t