Manitoba Hansard — 23 April 2008 (Sitting 29, 39th Legislature, 2nd Session)

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Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LX No. 29 – 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, April 23, 2008 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P.

SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

905 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, April 23, 2008 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYER ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 27–The Shellmouth Dam and Other Water Control Works Management and Compensation Act (Water Resources Administration Act Amended) Hon. Christine Melnic k (Minister of Water Stewardship): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk), that Bill 27, The Shellmouth Dam and Other Water Control Works Management and Compensation Act (Water Resources Administration Act Amended), be now read for a first time. Motion presented. Ms.

Melnick: This bill will establish a compensation program for damages caused by the Shellmouth Dam and by other water control works that may be designated by regulation. It also enables the establishment of operating guidelines and advisory committees for provincial water control works. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 206–The Elections Amendment Act Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the MLA for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that Bill 206, The Elections Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi électorale, be now read a first time.

Motion presented. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, this bill makes it an offence to vandalize election signs of candidates in provincial elections. A person who is guilty is liable on

summary conviction to both a fine of not less than $300 nor more than $2,000 and imprisonment for a term of not less than 24 hours and not more than one year. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Manitoba Liquor Control Commission–Liquor Licence Fees Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

These are the reasons for this petition: The Manitoba Liquor Control Commission has substantially raised the cost of annual liquor licences for restaurants, cocktail lounges and other Manitoba businesses. The MLCC justifies this increase by stating that the cost of an annual licence is being increased to better reflect rising administration costs. For some small business owners, the cost of an annual liquor licence has more than doubled. These fee hikes are a significant burden for business owners.

The decision to increase the annual licence fee, while at the same time eliminating the 2 percent supplementary licence fee payable on the purchase of spirits, wine and coolers, has the effect of greatly disadvantaging smaller businesses. Small businesses which do not purchase liquor from MLCC in large volumes will not receive the same benefit from the elimination of this supplementary fee. Instead, they are facing substantially in creased costs simply to keep their doors open.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister responsible for the administration of The Liquor Control Act to consider working with MLCC to find alternative means of addressing rising administrative costs. To request the Minister responsible for the administration of The Liquor Control Act to consider working with MLCC to revise the decision to implement a significant annual licence fee increase.

To urge the Minister responsible for the administration of The Liquor Control Act to consider ensuring that the unique challenges faced by small businesses are better taken into account in the future.

906 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 This petition is signed by Alice Parkes, Don Parkes, Drew Fraser and many, many others, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Lake Dauphin Fishery Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition. The reasons for this petition are as follows: Fishing is an important industry on Lake Dauphin.

To help ensure the sustainability of the Lake Dauphin fishery, it is essential that spawning fish in the lake and its tributaries are not disturbed during the critical reproductive cycle. A seasonal moratorium on the harvesting of fish in Lake Dauphin and its tributaries may help create an environment that will help produce a natural cycle of fish for Lake Dauphin, therefore ensuring a balanced stock of fish for all groups who harvest fish on that lake. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms.

Melnick) to consider placing a moratorium on the harvesting of any species of fish in Lake Dauphin and its tributaries for the period April 1 to May 15 annually. To request the Minister of Water Stewardship to consider doing regular studies of fish stocks on Lake Dauphin to help gauge the health of the fishery and to consider determining any steps needed to protect or to enhance those stocks. This petition is signed by Delores Ferec, Rene Ferec, Debbie Pinette and many, many others. Dividing of Trans-Canada Highway Mrs.

Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The seven-kilometre stretch of the Trans-Canada Highway passing through Headingley is an extremely busy stretch of road, averaging 18,000 vehicles daily. This

section of the Trans-Canada Highway is one of the few remaining stretches of undivided highway in Manitoba, and it has seen more than 100 accidents in the last two years, some of them fatal. Manitoba's Assistant Deputy Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation told a Winnipeg radio station on October 16, 2007, that when it comes to highways projects, the provincial government has a flexible response program and we have a couple of opportunities to advance these projects in our five-year plan.

In the interests of protecting motorist safety, it is critical that the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley is completed as soon as possible. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) to consider making the completion of the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley in 2008 an urgent provincial government priority.

To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider evaluating whether any other steps can be taken to improve motorist safety while the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley is being completed. This is signed by Ken Chorney, A.M. Cotton, Trevor Lee and many, many other Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. * (13:40) Long-Term Care Facility–Morden Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly, and the background for this petition is as follows: Tabor Home Incorporated is a time-expired personal care home in Morden with safety, environmental and space deficiencies. The seniors of Manitoba are valuable members of the community with in creasing health-care needs requiring long-term care. The community of Morden and the surrounding area are experiencing substantial population growth. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 907 To request the Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald) to strongly consider giving priority for funding to develop and staff a new 100-bed long-term care facility so that clients are not exposed to unsafe conditions and so that Boundary Trails Health Centre beds remain available for acute-care patients instead of waiting placement clients. This is signed by Jake Reimer, Martha Klassen, Ike Klassen, Sharon Wieler and many, many others. Child-Care Centres Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly: These are the reasons for this petition: There is an ongoing critical shortage of child-care spaces throughout Manitoba, particularly in fast-growing regions such as south Winnipeg. The provincial government has not adequately planned for the child-care needs of growing communities like Waverley West where the construction of thousands of homes will place immense pressure on the already overburdened child-care system.

The severe shortage of early childhood educators compounds the difficulty parents have finding licensed child care and has forced numerous centres to operate with licensing exemptions due to a lack of qualified staff. Child-care centres are finding it increasingly difficult to operate within the funding constraints set by the provincial government to the point that they are unable to provide wages and benefits sufficient to retain child-care workers.

As a result of these deficiencies in Manitoba's child-care system, many families and parents are growing increasingly frustrated and desperate, fearing that they will be unable to find licensed child care and may be forced to stop working as a result. In an economy where labour shortages are common, the provision of sustainable and accessible child care is critical. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr.

Mackintosh) to consider addressing the shortage of early childhood educators by enabling child-care centres to provide competitive wages and benefits. To urge the Minister of Family Services and Housing to consider adequately planning for the future child- care needs of growing communities and to consider making the development of a sustainable and accessible child-care system a priority.

To urge the Minister of Family Services and Housing to consider the development of a governance body that would provide direction and support to the volunteer boards of child-care centres and to consider the development of regionalized central wait lists for child care. To encourage all members of the Legislative Assembly to consider becoming more closely involved with the operations of the licensed day-care facilities in their constituencies. This is signed by Dale Baldwin, Hazel Baldwin, Georgina Hamoline and many, many others. Crosswalk at Highway 206 and Centre Avenue Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I wish to present the following petition: These are the reasons for this petition: The safety of children crossing Provincial Highway 206 in Landmark ha s been a local concern for a number of years. Provincial Highway 206 through Landmark is a busy route serviced only by pedestrian crossing signs where it intersects with Centre Avenue. Safety at this pedestrian crossing needs to be improved before an accident results in major injury or fatality. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr.

Lemieux) to consider approving the installation of an illuminated crosswalk sign at the intersection of Provincial Highway 206 and Centre Avenue. This is signed by Jane Hansen, Stuart Lyder, Sue Herrmann and many other fine residents of Landmark. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Monsieur le Président, je suis très fier de déposer les rapports suivants: Manitoba Justice Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 2008-2009 Departmental Expenditure Estimates.

908 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 Translation Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to table the following reports: Manitoba Justice Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 2008-2009 Departmental Expenditure Estimates. * * * Mr. Speaker: Tabling of reports? Ministerial statements. Order. The honourable Minister of Finance? Hon. Greg Selinger (M inister of Finance): Yes, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table– Mr. Speaker: Order. Is there l eave of the House to revert to tabling of reports? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No?

It's been denied. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Inkster, on a point of order? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I do believe that there would be leave to allow the Minister of Finance to table his documents. Mr. Speaker: Order. I had asked the House and I heard a direct no. So we'll move on. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I know it would be outside the norm, but maybe if you were to re- canvass the House, I'm sure that there would be leave to allow the minister to table the documents. Mr.

Speaker: Is there the will of the House for the Speaker to re-put–[interjection] Order, please. I need co-operation of the House. That's why it's very difficult to hear what's going on. I think this should be a perfect example for all members why we need to have decorum in this House. Is there a will of the House for the Speaker to re-put the question on tabling of reports? Is there will of the House? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Okay. It's the will of the House, so now I'm going to revert to tabling of reports. * * * Mr. Selinger: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, for your flexibility and with the priv ilege you've granted me, I'll table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, '08-09 Departmental Expenditure Estimates. Thank you. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today eight members from the 435th Squadron who are the guests of the honourable Member for St. James (Ms. Korzeniowski). Also in the public gallery we have from Springs Christian Academy 54 grade 9 and 11 students under the direction of Mr. Brad Dowler.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Manitoba Hydro Power Line Location Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, without the benefit of any environmental study or analysis and contrary to the wishes of 15 out of 16 communities on the east side of the lake, the Premier is forcing Manitoba Hydro to run the longer, more dangerous, more expensive line through territory that has been identified by Global Forest Watch as under greater threat than the boreal forest that he claims to want to protect in the eastern part of Manitoba.

I want to ask the Premier: Why is he directing Hydro to run the next bipole transmission line through boreal forest that according to Global Forest Watch is under greater threat than the boreal forest on the east side of the province? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the report was tabled in the committee last December. The member opposite had the opportunity to deal with the report from Mr. Farlinge r.

The Farlinger report outlined the advantages and disadvantages of the eastern route, the central Interlake route and the western route, further went on to say that the only specific recommendation was not to proceed down the Interlake route because of reliability issues. We obviously know that that would be, because it's already an existing right of way, the path of least resistance.

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 909 We know that all transmission routes are going to have opposition to them. Witness what happened in Alberta last fall. Witness what happened in British Columbia this spring where transmission lines were stopped by the government after they were initiated by the government because of, quote, environmental reasons. * (13:50) Mr. Farlinger outlined all the advantages and disadvantages in the committee, Mr. Speaker. Also, in the committee, Mr. Brennan outlined the capital costs of one proposal versus the other.

I still don't understand why the Leader of the Opposition is publicly using, often with taxpayers' money, the $1.5 billion, when Mr. Brennan, just as recently as last week, wrote the Brandon Sun –I imagine he wrote other newspapers–and pointed out that number is factually incorrect. I guess I'd ask the member opposite, there is a reason to debate this issue. It's very important to the public. That's why we staked out this position before the election campaign so the people of Manitoba would know exactly where we stood.

But I actually think the people of Manitoba are entitled to agree or disagree with either side of this debate, but at least we should have factually correct numbers on the record so we can have an accurate debate. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, I know that the position of the NDP, which he has put forward, is that they're only going to waste $640 million going down the west side of the province. That's what he's saying, only $640 million. It reminds me of Jean Chrétien; it's only a few million dollars. He says he's only going to waste $640 million.

He knows that it doesn't include the settlements with property owners on the west side whose hand has been strengthened considerably by virtue of the fact that he's now only left Hydro with one option. It doesn't include the cost of added maintenance for an extra more than 400 kilometres of line, all of which needs to be added on to the $640 million. It doesn't include the reliability discount that we are going to be stuck with because we are selling a product that is less reliable to our partners south of the border than would otherwise have been the case.

So that's why I've said that the worst-case scenario–and also consider that this is the Premier who said Wuskwatim, the $1.6-billion Wuskwatim project was only going to cost $800 million. This is the Premier who said the $300-million Hydro tower downtown was only going to cost $75 million. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is why I said in question period yesterday that the best-case scenario for the amount to be wasted is $800 million. The worst case is $2 billion. We're comfortable that the $1.5 billion is a reasonable estimate, based on past experience and past statements.

We've also said that the need for conversion equipment would come with the need for Conawapa and Gull. If he can close the power sale with Wisconsin, which he hasn't done yet, if he can close it, we will acknowledge, and we will acknowledge today, that extra conver sion equipment will be required. But that is completely outside of the $800-million to $2-billion estimate. If the Premier wants to be honest and accurate, he'll read the entire letter that Mr. Brennan wrote, which is that prior to the announcement of the Wisconsin deal there wasn't a need for it.

After the announcement, that requires Conawapa and Gull, which requires conversion equipment. We've always taken that position, Mr. Speaker, and we'll take that position going forward. Mr. Speaker, to the Premier, and I know he likes the little gotcha game where he takes an excerpt out of a letter but doesn't read the rest of the letter from Mr. Brennan. The fact is he makes reference to the Farlinger report, and page 9 it says: The western side routing will cross not only boreal shield, but boreal plains ecozones.

The latter ecozone is considered to be highly impacted and at greater risk, according to Global Forest Watch, than the eastern forest. It says: An argument can be made that this region has greater urgency for protection of ecological integrity than the vaster boreal shield forest of the east side. However, this forest does not have the same profile and emotional appeal as the east side. That is what Mr. Farlinger said with respect to the decision.

So I want to ask the Premier: Given that it is clear that the environmental damage, from all the facts that we know, on the west is greater than the east side: 350,000 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions, a forest that is under greater threat than the eastern forest, 60 kilome tres more trees reducing the province's carbon sink, Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Premier, in addition to that, why it is that Manitoba Hydro, contrary to promises that the Premier made in this House, is distributing brochures around western Manitoba that show the site selection, the conceptual location area, as cutting through six provincial parks and national forests on the west side of the province, including Riding Mountain National Park?

910 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Farlinger–and we released the report to the committee. The reports of the past done by Mr. Farlinger on reliability were kept in secret by the former government. We released it fully and it does make one specific recommendation on the Interlake site being based on reliability, and it gives pros and cons on the east and west site. I can take quotes out of the Farlinger report. The member opposite, yes, could take quotes out of the Farlinger report. It does point out, Mr.

Speaker, it also says–and I know the member opposite, he can quote one part and I can quote another. It says: Cause célèbre is also possible on the east side. It could draw national and international groups. A cause célèbre also potentially creates an economic risk related to export energy markets. Now, let me point out, I know the members opposite have not sold a megawatt to export markets in the United States, but we have 500 megawatts in Wisconsin. We have a proposed 500-megawatt sale in Wisconsin. We have a 250-megawatt sale in Minnesota.

I want to point out that every one of those sales will produce revenue beyond the capital cost for the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, in my mailbox I received a pamphlet from the Leader of the Opposition that stated that the cost was $1.5 billion. Mr. Blatz, last evening, an engineer in favour of the east-side route, pointed out that the number is the same number as Mr. Brennan used. It's $410 million, which has been honestly disclosed by members opposite. We can argue all the issues of the Farlinger report, but when can I expect in my mailbox the accurate number according to Mr. Brennan and Mr.

Blatz and any other person looking at it, as opposed to the factually incorrect information that I got in my mailbox. When can we receive that? Mr. McFadyen: He doesn't even agree with his own Finance Minister who wrote a letter to the editor saying that it was going to be $640 million. So he comes in here; he says $410 million. The Finance Minister says $640 million. They've left out a bunch of other expenses, and those numbers are being quantified, Mr. Speaker. The best-case scenario, as we have said, in terms of how much they're going to throw away is $800 million and the worst-case is $2 billion, Mr. Speaker.

So I don't know why it is that he can't seem to get over the fact that whatever scenario we're operating within, he's throwing hundreds of millions of dollars down the drain, and it's shameful. Now, the other point that he makes–and every now and then it's a good idea to go back and check the facts, a little reality check. He's been making statements in the House about power sales under his government and the previous government. Mr.

Speaker, 1999 Manitoba Hydro Annual Report: percentage of hydro revenues coming from export sales, 30.2 percent; 2007 Hydro Annual Report: percentage of revenues coming from hydro sales, 27.7 percent, an 8 percent reduction in the share of revenue coming off of export sales. He talks about power sales. The only deal he's closed was a carry-on contract that was closed and completed under the previous government with Xcel Energy. He's announced three deals in the last year, Mr. Speaker, hasn't closed a single one of them.

So every now and then reality has to come into the debate and if he wants to have a debate over facts, we are more than happy to do that. * (14:00) Mr. Speaker, the Premier has said in his answers that there are pros and cons on the environmental impacts on both sides. Given that he's prepared to acknowledge that, why won't he put the east-side option in front of the Clean Environment Commission as soon as this fall. The work has been ready so they can get on with considering it. They're not even planning to put the west-side option in front of the Conservation Department until the fall of 2011.

They can consider the east-side option starting in the fall of 2008, have it completely wrapped up in time for them to make their filing on the west-side option. Why doesn't he just do what he says the reports says, put both options in front of the Clean Environment Commission and see which one wins? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, as I said, the quote from Mr. Farlinger deals very e ffectively with the whole issue of the economic risk: because it potentially creates an economic risk related to export energy markets, which we believe is extremely important.

That is an economic issue along with the environmental issues that is discussed fully in the Farlinger report. We believe the member opposite should understand that the Hydro staff that have been involved in negotiating these agreements are very competent people. We have a great deal of faith in

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 911 them. They've negotiated a 250-megawatt agreement in Minnesota which is before the committee right now. Yes, it's getting environmental scrutiny in Minnesota for actually issu es dealing with 25 years ago. Yes, there is a 500- proposed megawatt sale in Wisconsin that will be scrutinized. The commercial deal has already been reached between the utilities. What are the issues that are going to be dealt with in Wisconsin? It's going to be the issues of environmental sustainability. Mr.

Speaker, I would point out that some of us were part of a government that negotiated an agreement to build Conawapa. Remember that project? It was negotiated. It was proposed. It was ready to go and the Tories mothballed it. They mothballed Conawapa. They mothballed Limestone. They want to mothball the sales to Wisconsin. They want to mothball the sales to Minnesota. We believe in building a future through hydro-electric development, and they're just going to nitpick their way to try to mothball this project. We're not going to let it happen. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): I thank the Premier for that rant. All he needs to do is take his shoe and bang it on the table and he'll have his Khruschev impersonation absolutely perfect, Mr. Speaker. I know he doesn't like to let the facts get in the way of a colourful presentation, but the fact is, Mr. Speaker–and he knows this, that it was a Conservative government that built Limestone ahead of

schedule and under budget, and it was an NDP government that cancelled the Conawapa contract, leading to the litigation. He should call his friend Bob Rae who cancelled the Conawapa contract, and take a look at the NDP record on hydro. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Premier talks about the international cause célèbre. He's worried about an international cause célèbre that may arise. Well, let's take a look at what the Farlinger report actually says as compared to how the Premier is misinterpreting in the House.

What the Farlinger report says is that there is likely to be international opposition: but the tenor of the debate may change as environmental groups can no longer point to a lack of First Nations support for the east-side route as part of their opposition, and it could potentially place them in conflict with First Nations communities with whom they had previously partnered. So what he says is that First Nations support the east side, as they do. The risk of an international cause célèbre goes away. So let's get on with it, Mr. Speaker. The fact is, the east-side communities support it for very good reasons.

People on the east side are looking for economic opportunities, some of the poorest communities in our province. The fact is that the en vironmental waste of the west-side route, 350,000 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions, 40 megawatts of wasted clean energy, a less reliable grid, delays in construction, cutting through the most threatened part of the boreal forest according to Forest Watch, those are the issues that could stand in the way of power sales to Wisconsin and Minnesota.

Those are the issues that Wisconsin, that wants to shut down its coal-fired plants may take interest in, when they've got a 30-megawatt plant operating in Wisconsin that could be shut down if we didn't waste 40 megawatts on the west side, Mr. Speaker. Those are the issues. He's creating the risk. He's creating the danger. Why doesn't he do the sensible thing? Put the east-side option in front of the Clean Environment Commission this year. Allow them to consider it. Put the west-side option in front in the fall of 2011, in the three years of delay that have been created by their dithering on this issue.

Let's put them side by side and let the Clean Environment Commission decide which option's better for the environment and which is better for the future of Manitoba. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the fact that the member opposite is able to stand up with a straight face and say, after all the Hansard would prove him to be wrong, that the Tories supported Limestone–they actually opposed it. They opposed it. Their surrogate editorial writers opposed it. They were wrong in history. Thankfully, it was built. And that's what we're dealing with. We're dealing with a mothball party.

We're dealing with a mothball party. On the issue of Conawapa, I recall the negotiations and the agreement on Conawapa. I also recall very directly the re view that took place by the former Cabinet minister, Mr. Parasiuk, and when the NDP in Ontario was in offi ce they proposed a delay in Conawapa. The members countered with a cancellation. That is clearly also on the record,

912 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 Mr. Speaker. History has shown that to be, again, the wrong decision for Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, we believe in getting the billions of dollars in capital construction, the equity agreements on training with Aboriginal people that live and work in the north, getting those revenues that are available for 250 megawatts in Minnesota and 500 megawatts in Wisconsin. Clearly it does two things. It presents tremendous opportunity for the people of Manitoba. It's building a future rather than being a negative nabob.

Secondly, it produces the result that his factual claim about a $1.5-billion difference falls like a house of cards, as we've always maintained that his numbers are wrong. When can I expect the correction that Mr. Blatz made last night at a community forum, that Mr. Brennan made in the newspaper, that Mr. Brennan presented to the legislative committee. Surely to goodness, if we have legislative committees and senior non-partisan officers of a corporation produce a number that's $410 million, the people of Manitoba are entitled to that number, not a fabricated one from the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, I don't know if the Premier listened to the comments that I just made. I just dealt with the issue of the converter. I'm not sure why he's still ranting about it.

The fact is, rather than these rants and phony demands for apologies, when he's the one who's about to flush hundreds of millions of dollars down the drain and compromise the reliability of Manitoba's power system at the same time as he leaves Aboriginal people out of the economic future of our province, if anybody owes Manitobans an apology, I would suggest that perhaps it's this Premier who's all talk, no action when it comes to Manitoba Hydro. Mr.

Speaker, will the Premier firstly–and there's no point even in asking him for an apology because we know we won't get it, but for all this reputation that he's built up as a seller of hydro, to take our export revenues from 30.2 percent to 27.7 percent really isn't a very good record for the last eight years. * (14:10) Lot's of spin, a great big reputation built up from news conferences and term sheets and announcements, just like his Ainsworth news release–we all remember that one; Maple Leaf Distillers, that was one of my favourites, all the spin that he got out of that one.

He's announcing things all over the place, and he's yet to close a single deal on his own other than the carry-on agreement that was executed under the last Conservative government. So I want to ask the Premier if he will do the right thing, because he's yet to respond to the question. Will he put all options in front of the Clean Environment Commission, including the east side which he's in a position to do as soon as this fall, so that we can have a full hearing on all the issues, have them dealt with in an open, objective forum and give Manitobans assurance that in the end the right decision is going to made.

Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, we put the options on the table before the last election. We've absolutely said, stated, Mr. Speaker, that it would be more expensive to go down another route. It's been quoted. The 3 percent number was used, I believe in the Free Press, three years ago in terms of costs. The Consumers' Association has used a comparable number this year. We would argue that that will be dramatically overcome with increased revenues now that we've announced the tentative Wisconsin sale. Because of the market realities, Mr. Speaker, a term sheet has to be made public. That's what we did in Minnesota.

That's what we've done in Wisconsin. We're following the rules of the market. We're dealing with private firms in Minnesota. We're dealing with private firms in Wisconsin. We're dealing with a public Legislature and a public Senate in Minnesota and a public Legislature and a public Senate in Wisconsin. Mr. Speaker, both parts of that have to be approved, but history is clear. The members opposite have cancelled hydro dams. They've cancelled projects. They've been opposed to any growth idea. We're the party of economic growth. They're the party of no growth, Mr. Speaker. It's very clear.

Manitoba Hydro Power Line East-Side Meetings Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): I know that the Premier specializes, believes in that old saying that you repeat a falsehood often enough, it eventually becomes true. But the fact is, Mr. Speaker, Manitobans are smarter than that. They know that his claims about the history of Hydro under Duff Roblin in successive Conservative governments is very much one of building. I want to ask the Premier, with my final supp: Because the will and the desire of the Aboriginal

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 913 people in eastern Manitoba is so fundamental to this debate, he announced some months ago a nine-minister tour of eastern Manitoba. I wonder if he can just update us on how that's going. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, before the former minister made the call on the issue of the boreal forest on the east side, we had some 80 meetings on the east side. We further had to clarify because there was an urban myth–I'm sure it wasn't created by members opposite–that, in fact, the road was going to be paid for by the transmission line.

We actually asked that question, and it wasn't true. Back in committee, Mr. Brennan even talked about a separation on the road and a transmission line if it happened on the east side. Then we were dealing with a second urban myth, created by members opposite, which the minister described yesterday, that they could own the transmission line on the east side, Mr. Speaker, as opposed to Hydro in terms of economic development. So, yes, we had to have 80 community meetings on the east side. We had those. We're continuing to meet. Meeting on the east side is an ongoing process. Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Well, Mr. Speaker, I will, again, put on the record this quote: "Ultimately, the Chief Medical Examiner has to make the determination of whether an inquest will be done or not." That quote is from the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson), the former Minister of Family Services, in June 1999. I would point out, Mr. Speaker, that the Member for Rupertsland (Mr. R obinson) that actually represents that area is in those communities all the time. He's in touch with the people.

He knows what's going on, and because of his leadership, not only are we trying to rebalance some of the issues that are before the Minnesota Legislature, and I appreciate his efforts in that regard. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, we have announced money for the Rice River road that will be on the east side, not all the way up the lake but on the east side for the people. You can call it a highway or superhighway. You can cr eate all the terminology you want. That is also very important to the people.

But one thing we're not going to do is promise something, that Hydro is going to pay for everything, when it was not going to do it. We had those meetings and we presented all the facts to the people. That's why those 80 community meetings took place before we made a decision. The decision we had made and the direction we were going was right in front of the people of Manitoba during the election campaign. The member opposite had the choice, and you know what he did? He promised, in Virden, to take the highways money from northern Manitoba and reallocate it to southwestern Manitoba.

We don't say one thing in one part of the province and another thing in another part. We say the same thing everywhere. Gage Guimond Death Inquest Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, 10 days ago I asked the Minister of Family Services to call an inquest into the death of two-year-old Gage Guimond, who died while in the care of this NDP government. The minister refused and tried to pass responsibility to the Chief Medical Examiner, but the truth is the minister has the authority to call an inquest.

I would like to ask the minister again: When is he going to do the right thing and call an inquest into the death of Gage Guimond? Without regard to political parties, there has been consistent treatment of how inquests are called in the province of Manitoba, and that is to not make politically expedient, or political judgments, but to refer to the professional judgment of the Chief Medical Examiner, as the former Minister of Family Services has confirmed to this House. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, the act clearly allows the minister to call an inquest.

A provincial judge needs to review the events that led to this tragedy and keep it from happening again. This is about children like Gage Guimond, Tracia Owen, Phoenix Sinclair, who died while in the care of this government. This was a government that was supposed to be protecting them. Why is the minister refusing to do the right thing and call an inquest? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, first of all, in addition to the long-standing practice of governments in this province, it should also be remembered that a critical, important part of accountability and justice is to ensure that the criminal proceedings proceed, Mr.

Speaker, without regard to who would call an inquest. That is always reserved until after the criminal proceedings so as not to undermine those

914 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 proceedings, so as not to in any way provide arguments to the defence counsel that could lead to injustice. So we should also be recognizing in this House the importance of the subjudice convention in that regard. So, Mr. Speaker, the issue of an inquest remains an open question. There are ongoing inquiries, and if outstanding questions remain, then– Mr. Speaker: Order. Child Welfare Services Client Safety Mrs.

Mavis Taillieu (Morris): On March 27, the Minister of Family Services promised to make safety the No. 1 priority for children in care, something that this NDP government has failed miserably at. It has been almost a month since he's made that promise. Can the minister assure the House that today all Child and Family Services agencies are putting safety ahead of culture and family in practice and not just in theory? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, the very foundation of a child-protection system has to be just that, child protection.

Accordingly, it's I think incumbent, in light of the debate that has been held, not just in this House but publicly, to ensure that there is a very clear message right from the legislative mandate right to the front line that safety is job 1. That legislation will be introduced very soon, Mr. Speaker. * (14:20) Mrs. Taillieu: Mr. Speaker, the minister can stand and say that, but there's nothing on the order paper. There's nothing on the notice paper. There's no legislation to be seen.

We have no assurances that the minister has even done anything that has even sent any directives to the authorities, to the agencies, to put safety as job 1. Has the minister sent a directive to the authorities, to the agencies, assuring that safety is job 1 for children in care? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, of course, safety has to be job 1.

It underpins, it's the foundation of the child-protection system, but we're going to, for greater certainty, make sure that there's consistency between the authorities act, the devolution legislation passed unanimously by this House that clearly says that's the top concern for Manitobans, and The Child and Family Services Act, and that legislation will be introduced in the next few days. Gang Violence Reduction Strategy Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, recently gang expert Michael Chettelburgh said that Winnipeg is a hotbed of gang activity and he predicts that the problem's going to get worse before it gets better. Given this prediction, I ask the Minister of Justice: Why is it that the longer he is minister, the worse the problem gets? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, I think the worst possible thing that could happen would be a government to say, oh, there's no organized crime and there's no gang activity going on, as happened in Manitoba during the 1990s when the gang culture really moved into this city, when it's been documented, when there was a gangland slaying in 1996 in my own constituency, and there wasn't the kind of surveillance and activity going on now. I want the member to know that we are sitting on a committee with the federal government right now.

It's setting up new Criminal Code legislation, led by initiatives by the former Minister of Justice who did a year- and-a-half review. Unfortunately, because of security reasons, a lot of that information has to stay–we cannot make it public but new legislation is coming for across the country. That's one of the reasons why we formed a partnership with Québec and Ontario to deal with gang problems. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, this minister doesn't have his facts right. That particular gang came into Winnipeg in the year 2000 and immediately set up shop in the constituency belonging to the Member for St. Johns (Mr.

Mackintosh), then-Minister of Justice. That's the effect of this government. Gang activities include drug sales. They include prostitution and the illegal firearms treaty. There are as many as 3,000 active gang members in Winnipeg, and Winnipeg has more active gang members per capita than the city of Toronto. We have a massive gang problem here in Winnipeg, so I ask the Minister of Justice: Why has he failed to reduce the number of active gang members in Winnipeg?

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 915 Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, some recent additions to the residents at Headingley and Stony Mountain might say different than the member opposite as a result of some recent convictions. In fact, there's been hundreds of convictions. Mr. Speaker, the member is citing information that I provided to him last year in the Estimates. There is active, ongoing surveillance. We set up interdepartmental, inter-police agencies to deal with this issue. It wasn't in pl ace before the task forces.

The various projects have undermined the leadership of the Hells Angels, at least temporarily, in this jurisdiction. One of the first steps I did when I became minister was to partner with Ontario and Québec to share intelligence on gang activities, and we've gotten the federal government to agree to amendments to the Criminal Code that'll help every jurisdiction in the country where gang and organized crime is, in fact, the most serious problem facing Canadian security today. Bill 206 Government Support Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, last fall many MLAs left when I introduced a bill that would make it illegal to remove, deface, cover up or alter an election sign that's put up on behalf of a candidate during an election. Sadly, over time, some politicians or their representatives have indulged in defacing and removing signs in the belief that it was acceptable. One Manitoba politician, in particular, who will r e m a i n n a m e l e s s , e v e n w e n t s o f a r a s t o p a y a supporter to remove signs. It's time for politicians to dissociate themselves from common thievery and vandalism. I ask the Premier (Mr.

Doer): Will he support our bill to outlaw theft and vandalism of election signs? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I've been involved in election campaigns since the mid-1970s, and I have yet to be in a campaign where one candidate or another doesn't say that the other candidates have organized or unorganized a ttempts to deface or steal their signs. Having said that, there are provisions in the Criminal Code.

There are provisions in legislation to deal with that issue, but I have to tell the member, as someone who has been campaigning literally since the 1970s–and I have been in 20 or 30 campaigns; I've run them across the country–I've yet to be in a campaign where I haven't heard the accusation made that the other side, no matter which political party it is, has paid someone to deface signs or has hired kids who have gone drinking to deal with signs, et cetera, Mr. Speaker. It's an ongoing problem that I've seen in this jurisdiction and other provinces for well over 30 years. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, it is time to change the practice and for all MLAs to recognize that it's unacceptable. Last time when I introduced this, the MLA for Russell (Mr. Derk ach) stood up and said, look, I caught a supporter of the NDP tearing and ripping down one of my signs. We're not going to stand up and blame one party or another here. The fact is– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for River Heights has the floor. Mr. Gerrard: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The fact is that it's time to improve the practices we have.

A scandal appears to be going on right at the moment with invasion by the RCMP of a party headquarters. We have things that we need to do here in Manitoba that will make sure we are ahead in setting a standard of integrity that's the highest in the nation. Will the Premier act? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I also have read the Gomery report . I think it's instructive for all of us. I also noticed those huge signs that one couldn't miss out in the soccer fields north and east of Winnipeg with the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler).

I believe, first of all, that in Manitoba we have thousands of volunteers working for all political parties that are putting in lots of hard hours at work. I also think sometimes I have noticed on a Sunday morning that some people–actually I've noticed after Halloween there's the odd garbage can knocked down. I don't want to make it illegal to have Halloween. I've noticed that there have been signs that have been wrecked, and I don't believe it's even a volunteer from another party. Sometimes young people, not young people, but sometimes people may

916 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 do a little vandalism. I don't like that; it's against the Criminal Code. That's where it belongs. If there's a specific allegation about anybody stealing signs, defacing signs, there is the police, Mr. Speaker. I think the bottom line here is thousands and thousands of volunteers for all political parties really go out for what they believe in for the candidate they support, and I actually want to accentuate the positive parts of democracy and thank the volunteers that work for all of us to help get us into politics. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, I believe we can all thank our volunteers and do. The reality is, if members will remember the last time I raised this, it was debated. The MLAs for Minto and Burrows stood and they spoke to say petty theft and vandalism and robbing of election signs are not really that important. Listening to the MLA for Minto (Mr. Swan), who should know better, it appeared that he was actually involved in vandalism and petty theft.

In Saskatchewan, they have moved already to make sure that there's a bill which recognizes that petty theft and vandalism of election signs are wrong, are illegal and are a punishable offence. I ask the Premier to stand up and recognize, as people have done in New York, that getting rid of petty theft and vandalism comes– Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:30) Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, we have a lot of substantive legislation that we are debating in this Chamber that deal with senior citizens, that deal with health care, that deal with matters of protection, that deal with personal safety, deal with First Nations people, redistributed income. We have a lot of issues to talk about. One of the important things I think that's been done is to put in place teams that deal with graffiti. Something that's obscene is to go to a senior citizen's home and have their garage or their house sprayed with graffiti.

We have teams of both volunteers and teams of people that have been sentenced to go to have to clean that up. I think that's important. I think respecting other people is important, and I think the member ought to respect other members' comments in this House when we debate legislation. But let's get on debating legislation and respect one another and show to the public on TV that we're dealing with matters of importance, not symbolic matters of bills that are already covered by other forms of legislation. We have other forums that can deal with things that are [inaudible] Mr.

Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS 435 Squadron Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Mr. Speaker, 435 Squadron flew many missions transporting troops and flying essential rescue missions. On April 7, the squadron unveiled a memorial to those who lost their lives in the line of duty and 13 aircraft crashes that date back to the Second World War. I was pleased to join them in marking this important event. The ceremony marked the squadron's history of flying dangerous missions to save the lives of Canadians.

Outside the theatre of conflict, this squadron can be counted on to help Canadians in distress. Mr. Speaker, the 435 Chinthe Transport and Rescue Squadron lost seven Douglas Dakota transport aircraft to enemy action or accident between 1944 and 1946. This included incidents during hostilities in the China-Burma-India theatre as well as a crash in England after hostilities had ended. Since 1946, the squadron lost six CC-130 Hercules aircraft in flying accidents in Canada. The official mission of 435's Transport and Rescue Squadron is to conduct air mobility and search and rescue operations.

They are responsible for search and rescue from the U.S. border to the geographic North Pole. Even today, they undertake feats of heroism. The squadron returned just this morning from a northern rescue mission. This past year alone, the squadron evacuated 82 people from Tadoule Lake who were threatened by forest fire in July of last year. In 2007, Mr. Speaker, they conducted 65 search and rescue operations and rescued 32 people. Two members of the squadron, Master Corporal Brian Decaire and Sergeant Darcy St.

Laurent were recently awarded the medal of bravery for their role in a daring rescue in the Arctic named SAR Stranded. These men and women are truly heroes coming to the aid of their fellow Canadians. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the commander at 17 Wing and organizers of the unveiling events. It is important for all of us to remember those who died while serving in 435 Chinthe Transport and Rescue Squadron. The

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 917 memorial will be a tasteful and timeless tribute to their lives. Search and rescue is a dangerous and difficult task to ask of any person. I know that the current members of 435 Chinthe Transport and Rescue Squadron serve with honour and are making us all very proud. Thank you. Harold Buchwald Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Member for St. James for those very appropriate comments. I know all of us in this House are indebted to, and very proud of those who serve in our forces.

So I just thank the member for the comment, and it's a very appropriate and fitting memorial for the great bravery and sacrifices that have been made. Mr. Speaker, my comment today relates to the passing of Mr. Harold Buchwald. I had the opportunity yesterday to attend his funeral, along with the Premier (Mr. Doer) and several members of this Assembly, and to listen to the great tributes provided by two close friends of Mr. Buchwald, as well as his son, Richard, who was a classmate of mine in university.

Everybody is familiar with the great career as a lawyer, the incalculable number of community contributions and the accola d e s t h a t f l o w e d t o M r . Buchwald from around our country and, indeed, internationally. Mr. Buchwald was honoured for his lifelong achievements in 1993, when he was named to the Order of Canada. In 1994, he was presented with an honorary doctorate from the University of Manitoba and has a scholarship named after him. For those who knew him, the litany of awards, degrees and recognitions do not even begin to encapsulate the breadth of Mr. Buchwald's giving character.

He was particularly active within Winnipeg's vibrant Jewish community and was generous in donating his time and expertise to causes, both large and small. He would often collaborate with members of his law practice and others to move forward on many important projects for our province. My most recent memories of Mr. Buchwald involve his very strong advocacy on a variety of causes that were important to him. I know the Premier and others have heard from him and knew him to be blunt and straightforward, articulate and passionate, and not one to shy away when he had a view to be offered.

So, I want to, again, commemorate Mr. Buchwald and express my sincere regrets, as well as the regrets of other members to the family of Mr. Buchwald. He has a great legacy of contributions to our province, and we will always remember and appreciate the kind of man he was and what he's done for the people of this province. Girl Guides and Brownies Career Fair Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to congratulate the Girl Guides and Brownies of Manitoba on the successful Career Day they held last month at Dalhousie School.

I had the privilege of being involved in the event which saw roughly 60 girls, between kindergarten and grade 8, participating in discussions with seven women, including myself. The girls were able to talk with women from a wide variety of career backgrounds in order to get a sense of the opportunities available to them as they grew up and they chose a career path. The Canadian Girl Guides Association was incorporated 91 years ago on July 25, 1917. Worldwide the Girl Guides organization is the largest organization for girls and women today, with 10 million members in 144 different countries.

Girl Guides of Canada provides its members with opportunities to meet others, learn new skills and make a difference in their world. They are introduced to a wide variety of activities from horseback riding and snowboarding, to advocating for the environment, to learning self-defence. Within this environment the girls are supported and mentored by the women who are part of the Girl Guides program. Self-esteem is fostered as the girls are encouraged to be leaders in their schools and communities and to speak up on issues that are important to them. Mr.

Speaker, the work of organizations like Girl Guides is very important, especially in today's world where young girls are faced with many social pressures. It was a pleasure for me to be able to spend the evening at their ca reer fair and share with them what it means to be a woman in politics. I would like to congratulate the leadership of the Girl Guides in Manitoba, in particular, Margaret Friesen, for an excellent ca reer fair event and for the wonderful guidance they provide for the young girls in our province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

918 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 Winkler Chamber of Commerce Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): The business community in Winkler has benefited tremendously from the progressive attitude and hard work undertaken by the Winkler Chamber of Commerce. Winkler is one of the fastest-growing cities in the province and our local economy has led the way. For this I would like to thank President Ken Thomas and all of the members of the chamber. Recently I had the pleasure to attend the Winkler Chamber of Commerce annual banquet, where the 2008 P.W. Enns Business Awards were presented.

Leo Ledohowski, CEO and chair of Canad Inns, was the guest speaker at the awards banquet. I'd like to congratulate Harv Thiessen, co-owner of WBS Construction, who was a recipient of the Business Excellence Award. Adele Dyck, of Star-7 International and Moonlite Auto Body also deserve congratulations for being recognized with Business Builder Awards. Each of these businesses was nominated, not only for their business leadership and success, but also for the strong community involvement. These businesses have strengthened our business community and contributed greatly to the city of Winkler. Mr.

Speaker, the Winkler Chamber of Commerce has consistently maintained a proactive approach to development. They have worked hard to develop their extended network within the business community and with other parties. These relation- ships help to create new chances for collaboration and improve opportunities in our area.

I would also like to commend them on th eir success in receiving competitive grant dollars and using these resources to further enhance produc tivity, reduce waste and offer support to the business. * (14:40) Once again I would like to thank the local business community who has supported the Chamber and Winkler. They continue to offer opportunities that make Winkler an exciting, prosperous, and desirable place to call home. I commend everyone on the successes they have achieved and wish them the best as they work toward growing local business and our community. Thank you. Harold Buchwald Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to pay a tribute to Harold Buchwald, who passed away last week. Harold Buchwald, of course, was a partner and friend of Is rael Asper and Yude Henteleff for many years, and from my position as Liberal leader, he played an important role in persuading Izzy Asper to become the leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party in the 1970s because he believed in his friend Izzy and in the cause of the Liberal Party in our province.

I had the opportunity of working with Harold Buchwald when we were working together trying to help build the potential for medical research in our province and, in particular, the Foundations for Health building which became the John Buhler Research Centre. Harold Buchwald then was a wonderful person, a joy to work with, very dedicated and very committed to improving medical research in Manitoba because he knew that medical research was the forefront and the n ecessary investment that was needed to improve health care in our province.

I have seen and met and talked with Harold Buchwald and his wife on many, many occasions but most recently had the chance to work with him on the effort to make sure that Upper Fort Garry was preserved as a major heritage site in Manitoba. While the members in the government were initially wanting to build or make sure there was a high-rise apartment there, Harold Buchwald and others like Jerry Gray had a different vision. Thankfully, the vision of Harold Buchwald prevailed in the end, and we're going to have a wonderful Upper Fort Garry site.

My condolences to family and friends, regret that Harold Buchwald has passed, and we're certainly going to miss him and his contributions to Manitoba. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, first, I wonder if I might seek leave of the House to recognize tomorrow, that is, April 24, between the hours of 4 and 6, in the House and both committees that there be leave to have no votes, no quorum. Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement that tomorrow, on the 24th, between 4 and 6 p.m., in the committees that there be no votes or quorum calls?

Is there agreement? [Agreed]

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 919 Mr. Chomiak: I also wonder, Mr. Speaker, if I might have leave of the Ho use to announce that the Standing Committee on Justice will meet on Monday, April 28, 2008, at 7 p.m., rather than the usual 6 p.m., which is what I'm seeking leave on, to consider the following bills: Bill 3, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act, Bill 4, The Provincial Court Amendment Act; Bill 5, The Witness Security Act; Bill 7, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act; and Bill 20, The Gunshot and Stab Wounds Mandatory Reporting Act.

I would also like to announce that the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development will also meet on Monday, April 28, 2008, and I'm seeking leave of the House to have the meeting at 7 p.m. rather than the usual 6 p.m. to consider the following: Bill 8, The Phosphorus Reduction Act; Bill 9, The Protection for Persons in Care Act; Bill 11, The Optometry Amendment Act; Bill 12, The Securities Transfer Act; an d Bill 18, The Testing of Bodily Fluids and Disclosure Act. Mr. Speaker: First of all, we'll deal with the time change.

Is there leave to change Monday, April 28, from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.? [Agreed] Is there leave to change April 28 from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.? Is there agreement? [Agreed] So it has been announced that the Standing Committee on Justice will meet on Monday, April 28, 2008, at 7 p.m., to consider the following: Bills 3, 4, 5, 7 and 20. Also, it has been announced that the Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development will also meet on Monday, April 28, at 7 p.m., to consider the following: Bills 8, 9, 11, 12 and 18. The honourable Government House Leader, on House business? Mr.

Chomiak: I wonder if we might dissolve into Estimates–Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker: The House will now dissolve into Committee of Supply. We will have in the Chamber, Executive Council; Room 255 will be Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives; and Room 254 will be Infrastructure and Transportation. Would the Chairs please report to your respective committee rooms. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) INFRASTRUCTURE AND TRANSPORTATION * (14:50) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Infrastructure and Transportation. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I'd like to thank the committee for the opportunity to ask a few questions. I've got about four of them, and they are dealing with highways issues. I received a letter from the minister on March 4, and I'd like to thank him for his letter.

It has to do with the intersection of PTH 15 and PR 207, and, basically, that's the intersection of the road that comes south from Oakbank and meets up with the Dugald Road, or Highway 15, right in Dugald. The minister mentions in his letter that the traffic counts– pardon me, that is 206. I apologize. I already have one of my numbers wrong. The traffic counts are going to be done in regard to that stretch of the road. I'm wondering if I could just put, just for two minutes, on the record the concern about that particular intersection. Maybe the department could have a close look at it.

It's an issue that's stemming in large part from the Sunrise School Division, and this is for the minister and his department. I'll keep it brief. The Sunrise School Division school buses are housed in Oakbank at the middle school. They then have to pick up students and go south on Highway 206 and at PTH 15, which is just a two-way stop, they stop there, and I don't have the exact distance, it's probably about 500 metres, is a railroad track just north of PTH 15. So what happens is the buses back up. It backs up over the tracks. This is, basically, in the mornings and in the afternoons.

We're asking for a controlled light for that corner and, basically, only for those significant traffic moments when there's a lot of commuter traffic, a lot of bus traffic, truck traffic, and because the buses are so long, it blocks any access to the turnoff lane. These buses have to keep going south on 206, crossing to 15, and most of

920 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 the other traffic is trying to go west on 15. It creates a safety hazard. The buses, especially, in the afternoon when the traffic, from the city, is going east, it creates a real safety issue with the buses trying to cross back and forth. So I was wondering if I could ask the minister if he would look into this particular issue and, perhaps, look at the possibility of putting a controlled four-way light system in there. It is something I don't know if the R.M. has spoken to him about.

I know it's an issue for the R.M. of Springfield and it is definitely an issue for the Sunrise School Division. If it would help matters, if the minister wants to comment, I would be prepared to talk to both of those municipal governments that, perhaps, they could even send a letter in saying, this is something they identified as an issue. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): A s I s t a t e d i n m y M a r c h 4 letter, the department always monitors a lot of intersections that have high traffic.

They're continuing to monitor the operations and the collisions at this intersection to see what may or may not have happened over a period of time. Certainly, based upon most recent traffic counts available, the traffic signals are not warranted at this time. I know I stated that in the letter. Traffic counts had been tentatively scheduled for counts in '07. I'm not sure why that didn't happen. That was in March '04, the letter I'm referring to. [interjection] Yes, '07 and '06. I understand.

I can certainly discuss this with my deputy minister with regard to '06, the intersection of '06, but my understanding is '06 and '07 were scheduled for traffic counts and moni toring what has happened at both of those intersections. I can clarify this with my deputy minister of my department but, certainly, the '07 intersections, lights are not warranted, but they are looking at doing more traffic counts this summer with regard to '07. To '06, I will check with my department to find out what's happening with regard to that. Mr. Schuler: I thank the minister.

Perhaps that's something the department could just send a note to my office. The letter of March 4, minister, actually does say PTH 15 and PR 207. If the traffic counts don't warrant it, I probably wo uldn't necessarily dispute that intersection. But it really is PTH 15 and PR 206, and that's the road that comes down from Oakbank, carries all the Cook's Creek traffic, any traffic. It's sort of like the feeder route that comes down, you turn onto 15 and you head into the city. They get caught up with all the school buses.

It creates that little bit of an angst, and the school buses are trying to cross 15 to go south to get to Ecole Dugald elementary school. All the buses, then, have to go to Anola. They have to actually turn east, and it all comes to that intersection because the buses are housed at Oakbank. It is creating a severe, severe problem there. My concern is that, someday, we are going to see a serious accident just because of the amount of traffic. I appreciate the minister already indicating he'll send that to the department and a simple note to my office would be appreciated.

I have another issue, and I will try to make this quick. I know there are ma ny members who wish to ask questions. It has to do with, again, Highway 206. When you go north on Highway 206 from 15 up to Oakbank, the development of the town is slowly coming south. There's a new power centre that's gone in, a Co-op gas station, a lumber yard. On the west side are two developments going in, and then sort of on the east side, there's a housing development going in. Some of the concerns that have been raised to me is that you still can do 100 almost right up to the town.

The highway speeds have not changed with the growth of the town. I was wondering if we could have a study done. Even when you leave town, as you leave town and you hit Springfield Road, I believe already it's marked 100 kilometres an hour and that's almost, you know, town, at this point in time. If we could just have perhaps a study done on that and back off the increased speeds. Maybe back them off by half a kilometr e or whatever is deemed appropriate by the department. Again, if the minister's department could just look into it. It is a safety issue because traffi c is slowing down.

There's not a turning lane to get into the power centres or the new developments and yet it's 100 kilometres an hour, just coming off 100 kilometres an hour at that point. So, anyway, again, if the minister could have the department look into it, and if there's something that we should be doing as a community, then lay it out for us and certainly we will do that. Mr. Lemieux: Yes, well, let me just mention to the Member for Springfield that it's the Highway Traffic Board that determines speed.

I mentioned it to the R.M. of Springfield and also mentioned it to other individuals who approached me at different functions

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 921 that they have to put an application into the Highway Traffic Board to have them look at this particular area to determine whether or not speed should be either increased or decreas ed. I know he's asking for a decrease in speed, and the Highway Traffic Board does this on many, many occasions where they take a look at different intersections or different parts of road, and they're the ones who certainly make recommendations to me.

Just with regard to the previous point that the MLA was making with regard to Highway 206, the letter I received now he's making reference to was the March 4, '08, letter that dealt with PTH 15 and 207. I'm not sure if the MLA sent me another letter which maybe it's a different letter. I'm not sure, but I was responding to a letter dated March 4 which I responded to his letter on November 8, '07, to me asking about 07 and 15. I know that he mentioned 206 and 15; that's fine. We'll still look at it. We'll pass it on to the department to still look at that intersection.

But, with regard to speed limits, it's the Highway Traffic Board that does their investigation whether or not speed should be increased or decreased. So it's the R.M., the rural municipality or the Town that has to and should request of the Highway Traffic Board that they should take another look at the speed limit. Mr. Schuler: Just a question on that one. Can individual citizens–can I, as the MLA, put an application forward and ask them to review it? I think that's what people are really looking for– obviously, the town has grown substantially since those signs went up–and have a review done on the speed limit.

Is that something that I could request even as MLA? Mr. Lemieux: Yes, I think any citizen can put forward a request, if they want to send a letter to the Highway Traffic Board. In fact, many individuals send letters to my department asking that something be done, but it's the Highway Traffic Board that determines that. I mean, they will consult with my department once they do their investigation or they look at what's going on with regard to a particular speed zone. But any individual, an MLA, city council, town council, R.M. can request that of the Highway Traffic Board. Sometimes they're asked multiple times.

The Highway Traffic Board will go out and they'll take a look at a particular speed zone and they'll say, no, it's not warranted through all their investigation. Then a year later, they get another letter and then the year af ter that, they get another letter. I mean, that's fine, but the Highway Traffic Board is often inundated with a lot of requests to either raise the speed limit or decrease it. So, to the best of my knowledge, the Highway Traffic Board has not received any requests at all from the R.M. or any citizen or any individual, as far as I know. * (15:00) Mr. Schuler: On to the next issue.

I received an e-mail from a lady who drives on Springfield Road east of Highway 59. That's sort of driving past the Kitchen Craft, and then there are all the auto shredders. The concern she raises in the e-mail is that there are a lot of trucks. They go through town and they collect refrigerators and steel and all kinds of metal parts. I have seen them at times, rather precarious, the way they've been loaded, and she feels that there's a serious safety issue.

It's not a twinned road; it's a lot of truck traffic; and the big semis come and they sort of cross, and these pick-up trucks with their trailers–and the trailers are usually a pick-up truck that's sort of had the box cut off and it's been manufactured into a trailer–and they're piled high, and they shimmy and weave and wobble. It's just a concern, and I did want to raise it with the minister. She has indicated in her e-mail: In the past two months, I have been almost hit numerous times and have suddenly had to move out of the way. She's concerned that there are school buses moving down there.

Scrap, at times, has fallen out of the trucks onto the roadway ahead of me, and just wanted to know if anything has been looked into. I suggested to her that I would have the opportunity to raise it with the minister. Mr. Lemieux: Well, just a couple of points. Number 1, this is a serious issue. Some people will say, well, somebody has converted or customized some truck to haul a bunch of junk, it's no big deal. Some entrepreneur is trying to make a quick dollar. It's more than that, quite frankly, because if anyone has been paying attention to the news, they will see a tailgate flew off a truck in Ontario.

It went right through a windshield and killed people. So I take this question from the MLA very seriously. His comments are well taken because this

922 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 is an important issue of safety, and I do appreciate the question. The only question I would like to throw back to the MLA for Springfield is, does he know whether this is a municipal road of the R.M. of Springfield or is it the City of Winnipeg road? Mr. Schuler: Because the road does go basically from city into the R.M., I actually have no idea who has jurisdiction over it, and perhaps that's something that, again, if the minister just wants to take it as notice and have the department look into.

It was just an issue and maybe it's as much as having the department send a letter to the scrap dealers. You know, telling the guys, you know, there is a point in time when you shouldn't be loading more on to your trucks. I think maybe that's what they're looking for, but if the minister wants to take it as notice I actually don't know where jurisdiction ends and begins. Mr. Lemieux: Well, I won't take it as notice because it's either a City of Winnipeg road, R.M. of Springfield or East St. Paul. I know it's not a provincial road.

Number 2, I won't send a letter with regard to this issue, but will inquire to find out whose road that is, and we will certainly talk to that jurisdiction as to find out, you know, whose responsibility is it. Your question is an important one because no one wants to end up with anyone being hurt as a result of someone hauling whatever it is. Now, municipalities have by-laws on the way a load is–secured is the word I'm looking for. So I thank the MLA for Tran scona (Mr. Reid) for providing me with that. He knows it well because that's not too far from his constituency as well.

So I'm sure he's familiar with a lot of the scrap dealers and people who are recycl ing in that area. They make a good living from it, but, as was pointed out by the MLA for Springfield, we want to ensure that those loads are secured, no one is injured as a result of their customizing their vehicles, or whatever they've done to them to haul scrap. It's an important role they play, but we' ll endeavour to see whose responsibility this is and we'll certainly be prepared to let them know that we've received a question and someone should be looking into it. Mr.

Schuler: I thank the minister for those comments, and, yes, those scrap dealers do an important job. I mean we're glad that they're picking up the metal and hauling it away and, again, would like to see it done in a safe fashion. I have two more issues left, and I will move through them quickly. Twinning of Dugald Road. I know that there's been an issue raised insofar as deer and lighting on Dugald Road. I know there are a lot of safety issues that have been raised with the department over the years. Any plans for the twinning of Dugald Road from Plessis to the Perimeter? Mr.

Lemieux: Highway 15 or Dugald Road is an important artery with regard to traffic coming in and out of the city of Winnipeg. We acknowledge that, and, of course, now with the twinning and the amounts of money we've put into twinning the northeast Perimeter, traffic has increased. People are using that as a way to go north or south or actually into Winnipeg, not only during summer when people are heading out to the cottage but also year-round, quite frankly, but we're certainly monitoring that particular stretch of road.

There currently is no plan right now to twin Highway 15 or Dugald Road but we certainly are monitoring that road closely, as was pointed out by the MLA's questions on the intersection of 207 and 15, and 206 and 15. That stretch is becoming busier and busier with the development that's taking place out there. We acknowledge the boom that's happening in Manitoba, especially in the southeast, but I would just say that we continue to monitor this stretch of road. We know it's an important artery into the city and out of the city.

Our department is really cognizant of that, and they're watching this particular stretch of road. Mr. Schuler: No session would be complete without at least a couple of questions on PTH 15 bridge. It was one of those bridges that was cancelled, and I think that was unfortunate. Any discussion about putting the PTH 15 bridge over the floodway back into the queue and having it replaced? Mr. Lemieux: I thank the MLA for this question and I just want to, first of all, say, Highway 15 bridge is safe. The bridge that goes over the floodway is absolutely safe.

Yes, it's starting to show its age a little bit, and our department is monitoring it and looking at this bridge. I just want to say that this bridge was taken off the queue or off the list because, when it was taking a look at the expansion of the floodway, the

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 923 Floodway Authority looked at a number of bridges that the impact of the flow of water, the hydraulics of the water, if it would be impacted by a bridge that was low, that's the bridge that was deemed to be replaced. This particular bridge is not deemed to have any hydraulic impact with regard to flooding, so that was one of the bridges that was taken off the list. I've been advised by people in the Floodway Authority, as well as my department, of these occurrences. I just want to make sure that I put that on the record for the MLA for Springfield (Mr. Sc huler).

I'm sure he gets a number of calls or ques tions every year about it, and I acknowledged in my previous answer to his question about the traffic on 15. It is a busy artery, but right now there isn't anything in our capital plan to be twinning that bridge or replacing the bridge, but I can say that we are definitely monitoring the bridge. We've actually more than tripled our annual commitment for bridge renewal, and this is allowing a number of record projects to be completed this year.

This is something that we're very proud of and the fact that, over the next five years, we're putting just under $350 million into funding that will be spent on bridge construction. This is actually six times more than was spent in the '90s. It's a huge amount of money and it's going to be well spent and well managed. I can tell you not only did we do that but, with regard to bridges overall, we've put a couple million dollars more annually for additional bridge inspections.

I know the announcement of $125 million that was made just last year on top of that $4 billion we announced is a huge amount of money but we know that there's a need there. The government's committed to infrastructure renewal in this province with regard to infrastructure related to highways. We are committed to doing that all over the province, but this particular bridge is one that we're certainly keeping an eye on. It is safe, currently safe, but bridges only have a certain lifespan where they need some work.

Either they have to be reconstructed, rebuilt or redecked, and that's something that will be determined over the years to come. * (15:10) Mr. Schuler: My last question is: Is the bridge being scheduled for a retrofit? I had a phone call where someone indicated to me that the guardrails are basically rated for 50-kilometre-an-hour impact, and that they should be upgraded to at least 100- kilometre-an-hour impact rating. Can the minister, if the information isn't here, if the minister could have the department put that together and send it to me.

Again, it has to do with the retrofitting of it, and is the railing rated for up to 100-kilometre-an-hour impact, or is it just rated for 50 kilometres an hour? That was what I was led to believe. That's PTH 15. Mr. Lemieux: In discussion with the engineers I h a v e h e r e o n m y s t a f f , w e ' v e t a l k e d a b o u t t h e railings, as was the question. The design of the bridge was according to spec when it was the current railings. When or if the bridge is rehabbed or changed, the particular railing height will be according to what today's standard is.

Standards change year to year, or ev en every five years, or every 10 years. That's the advice I've received from my department with regard to the particular railings on No. 15 bridge. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Quick question here: Could the minister give us the status of Highway 32, the four-laning through the city of Winkler? Mr. Lemieux: I thank the member for the question. It's a highway that our department and our staff from Portage la Prairie, out of their territory, is certainly monitoring and working with the City of Winkler on. The community of Winkler is a fantastic community.

It's a booming community, and it continues to grow rapidly with our fantastic immigration policy through the Minister of Labour and Immigration (Ms. Allan). It's something that this community will continue to grow. In any community, no matter if it's Winkler, Steinbach, Morden, Altona, Carman, Headingley, Oakbank, Manitoba is in such a boom cycle right now that the population is growing. People are also choosing to move outside the city. It creates a lot of infrastructure challenges, quite frankly. It's not just related to roads.

It's also related to sewer and water, water treatment, potable water, good clean water. So there are a lot of challenges on the infrastructure portfolio as a result of Manitoba's huge boom. Mr. Dyck: I want to thank the minister for that answer. I looked up from last year's Hansard and it's similar. The memory is great. The point being the city of Winkler continues to grow. It's in bad need of four-laning. It's not a huge area. I believe it's a seven-kilometre stretch. All I want to know is: Where are they at with the status? I know Winkler is growing. I do live there. I do know

924 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 that they need it, and they need it desperately. But I want to know where they are at with purchasing easements on the side of the highway, where they are at with their discussions with the City of Winkler, and, by the way, I do know where they are at, but I'd like that confirmed from the minister. Mr. Lemieux: If I could ask the MLA just to repeat the end of the question. I'm sorry. I missed the end of your question. Mr. Dyck: It's basically the same as the first.

I want to know where you are at with the status of that highway, whether easements are being purchased, how far they are with that and how far you are in the discussions with the councillors and the mayor of the City of Winkler. Mr. Lemieux: Well, thank you. It wasn't that long ago that I met with the mayor and representatives from that community.

Usually we meet a couple of times a year to discuss a lot of issues, whether it's the growth, whether it's a K-Mart coming to the community, on different highways–or Wal-Mart, I should say–and I know the mayor, I believe it's Mayor Harder from the community of Winkler, has asked to meet once again, and I'm pleased to meet with him because we discuss all kinds of issues, including the new school that was just opened not long ago in Winkler that our government provided. So we're certainly willing to work with growing communities in Manitoba.

The stretch of road that the MLA talks about is probably about a, I would say, between $20-million and $23-million price tag on what they're asking to be done. There are a lot of challenges in Manitoba, a lot of roads that need to be fixed, and we acknowledge that. That's why the $4-billion budget that we brought into place. But we look forward to having conversations with city council and the mayor, and I know we had a Cabinet meeting there and a caucus meeting there a couple of years ago, and had a great discussion with many business people as to the challenges they're facing on the infrastructure file.

We continue to work and consult with communities in Manitoba. Mr. Dyck: I appreciate that comment. On the other hand, though, to be able to get to that new school, they do have to have the highway to drive on. Consequently, the traffic counts continue to go up. So I realize that there's a non-answer here, and I know that the City of Winkler, the mayor, they have been receiving the same answers. Yet you talk and seem to boast about the growth that's taking place there, but not giving the infrastructure dollars that are needed. So I realize the answer's the same as it was last year.

I would encourage you to continue to take a serious look at it. It is a safety issue. As well, they are continuing to monitor the accidents that take place. These accidents are going up year to year because of the continued traffic, so I would encourage you to take another look at it and see if you can't speed this up. The other question I have is regarding the Highway 201 that's a provincial road and just west of the village of Osterwick. Now, the Province took over this stretch of highway several years ago from the local R.M., and there are numerous complaints.

I know the minister has received letters, as well, regarding the dust cont rol. I know that the community is asking for several miles of dustproofing, and I'm wondering if the minister and his department have looked at that at all, and would consider providing this for the community. Mr. Lemieux: We met with the R.M. not that long ago and we talked about the spot road improvements that need to take place and also the dust retardant or the chemical that needs to be used to put on dusty spots.

We're working, of course, through our department, our office in Po rtage la Prairie, and of course waiting for their advi ce with regard to roads in their particular territory. But I have to tell you that the meeting we had with regard to a particular intersection just south of Winkler was a very good and, I think, productive meeting. It helped us understand a little bit more some of the challenges they had, not only with the dust and the kind of– it's a more technical answer than I have time to give here.

But, essentially, the material that was used to build that road, that's on that road, creates more dust than the average road. It's a– [interjection]–shale. Yes, it's a shale. Thank you to the MLA. It's a shale base, and it creates more dust. It's no fault to anyone in particular, but that's the material that was used at the time, and we understand that so we're looking at what can be done to keep the dust down overall. * (15:20) I just want to comment quickly about the MLA saying, you know, that it's important. The population's growing. It's booming in Winkler.

We understand that, but we also understand that there are roads that go to and from Winkler, and people use Highway 2 and Highway 3. We're putting

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 925 approximately $60 million into highways 2 and 3 and fixing up highways 2 and 3. I know it's linked more to Carman-Morden and Souris and Melita, but I just want to say that we are putting monies into every different region of the province. I just want to say $60 million is nothing to sneeze at, and PTH 2 and PTH 3 are receiving this investment because it's important and it needs it and it's something that was recommended by the department and we're doing something about it. But, with regard to 201, I know the department is looking at it.

There are spot road improvements that are going to take place. They're also looking at the dustproofing material that needs to be put on there. I know they're working with the local R.M. to see when is that a good time to do or how many times to do it in a year and so on. So I understand that those discussions are ongoing. At least, that's what I have been advised. Mr. Dyck: I would encourage the minister, though, to just talk to the department regarding the dustproofing. It is a real hazard for that community, and it is a growing village as well. You know, the dust just lingers within the village.

I've been out there a number of times, and it's a health hazard as well, the way it's going. It's not a huge distance that needs to be done, but I would say, a mile, possibly, well, kilometres. I guess it would be about three kilometres that need to be done. The other thing, for correction is that I appreciate the fact you're spending money on Highway 3 and No. 2, but the correction would be that people from Winkler or Morden, from my area, if they would take Highway 2 to Winnipeg, it would really be an extra distance. So, while it does encourage others to drive there and improve it for them, it's not being used.

Well, the minister asks if it's okay to spend money. I realize that other areas need expenditures as well in highways. I will concede to that. The other area, this is regarding the infrastructure and the whole issue of water within the R.M. of Stanley, and I see that you have your expert here on waterfication. I'm just wondering if he could indicate whether, in fact, the residents in the Rural Municipality of Stanley will be able to get hook-ups and get good, potable water piped right to their yards this year. Mr. Lemieux: I thank the MLA for the question.

Waterfication is really important to a lot communities and growing communities in Manitoba and no different in the R.M. of Stanley. There are three projects, I understand, that are connected to this. The National Water Supply Expansion Program, NWSEP, as it's called is no w extended for one year. It had run, or it expired, and so we've been told, at least we've been informed, that it's been extended for one year, and we thank the federal government for that. But we have not received any other details than that.

It's hard to make commitments overall without having something more concrete on this particular program. So really that's where it stands now, and I know that our Water Services branch has worked diligently with many R.M.s to try to deal with a lot of the challenges that R.M.s are facing. We understand that they are under pressure as well, and we are trying to work with them the best we can. This particular program, this National Water Supply Expansion Program, was over. It had expired, but the feds, as we understand it, have extended it. So this is very helpful with regard to the monies.

We are just awaiting further word on exactly where this program lies and where the monies are quite frankly. Mr. Dyck: Madam Chairperson, I would assume, then, that the minister's indicating that with the availability of this money and the details of it be announced fairly quickly that the department would allow the R.M. to go ahead and, in fact, bring the water to the yards and to the houses of the people living within the rural municipality. Is that accurate? Mr.

Lemieux: Well, let me just say, first of all, that last night many of my colleagues had the opportunity to meet with many of the representatives from the Association of Manitoba Municipalities. I understand also that the Conservative caucus met with them as well, and we had a great discussion and free flow of information going back and forth. One of their priorities is now that highways and roads and bridges are all taken care of. In politics it's what have you done for me lately? What have you done for me lately is water, whether it's drainage, whether it's waste water, whether it's potable, good drinking water.

AMM informed us that now this is their priority. Now we understand it. It's something that–priorities change, of course. Once one thing is taken care of, then organizations move on to something else. They told us they are happy with what's going on with regard to roads. They thought only $3 billion would be put in over 10 years, that's all that's necessary. We put in $4 billion. So now that that's checked off the list, they've moved on to water.

926 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 Just with regard to the R.M. of Stanley, there are approximately 69 other R.M.s that are also looking to tap into, no pun intended, the National Water Supply Expansion Program. You have 70 R.M.s that are all looking to improve their water systems which is understandable. So we really need to know on the long term where exactly th is program is going, quite frankly, because there is a huge need. Now a lot of rural Manitoba is represented by members of Parliament of the member opposite's persuasion.

I am hoping that they will be able to talk to their minister of infrastructure and other ministers in the federal Cabinet a nd members of Parliament overall to impress upon them how important this program was. Saskatchewan and Manitoba really were the only two provinces that, for the most part, really tapped into this particular program even though it was a national program. Doing away with a program like this really hurts Manitoba and Saskatchewan more so than other provinces, lesser degree Alberta. We would anticipate and would hope that this program would continue growing. * (15:30) Mr.

Dyck: Well, I want to thank the minister for the answer. I also don't want him to water down the question, and no pun intended on that one. The issue still is that we do need water. I'll take it one step further, and that is even just the source of water for the city of Winkler and the Pembina Valley Water co-op by and large. I'm wondering what the minister and his department are doing to make sure that there is a secure water source for those communities as they continue to expand.

I know that the minister has been applauding the fact that these communities are growing but I would hate to see that their growth would be impacted by the fact that they don't have the water that they need in order to continue this growth. I'm just wondering what the department is doing to make sure that they have a secure source of water. Mr. Lemieux: I guess my case in point is made by him by saying when there's a boom, infrastructure needs increase. Winkler already is tapping in, of course, through the Pembina Valley Co-op and are getting water through Morris and maybe even Letellier.

They've got a couple of water sources. It continues to grow. Their needs are going to increase as well and that's understandable. My understanding is that there is a lot of R.M.s that are working together, not only part of the co-op, but to determine how larger growing centres like Winkler for example, even Morden to a lesser degree, are going to have good potable water into years to come.

The answer of course to this is that the R.M.s will continue to work not only with the Water Services branch or Water Services Board but other communities, cities, towns and villages in the area as a regional challenge that they have and that's understandable. I think all of us have been pleasantly surprised that the immigration policy that we brought forward and the boom that's happening in the population growth is tremendous, and we understand that the challenges that come with that.

I can tell the MLA that we're certainly aware of those challenges, and we're doing what we can to help these communities work through it as I'm advised. Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): I heard the minister refer to the funding for those rural water lines. It used to be through PFRA, and I'm wondering if it still is and if it's the same amount of money. It used to be something like about $5 million for the three prairie provinces, and because Alberta didn’t use all theirs, we were able to drag a little back in here. I know your director for Water Services was very good at chasing that money down.

Is it the same amount that you're talking about? It's a one-year extension, I presume. Will we be following up and trying to make sure that stays there into the future because it's sure been resp onsible for a lot of rural water pipelines? Mr. Lemieux: On this particular program, we would agree that it's a valuable program and anything they can do to educate their cousins in Ottawa would be much appreciated with regard to the importance of this program. He is correct; the amounts are approximately right, but right now we're in early discussions. There is no dollar figure on the table.

He is correct; Manitoba and Saskatchewan used to be able to ease a little bit over towards a little bit further east of Saskatchewan and Manitoba from Alberta because, essentially, we'r e the two provinces that tapped into this the most, and it was a very worthwhile program, as he would know, being president of the Association of Manitoba Municipalities. These issues were very important a number of years ago, as they are today. Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Madam Chair, I am welcoming the opportunity to ask a few questions of

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 927 the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation because, among the many issues that are brought to me by my constituents, the condition of our roads and highways is one of the ones that is right up there as important to the people. I want to start by just asking a few questions about Highway 75, and I do recognize that there's been a lot of work done on Highway 75.

A couple of years ago, driving down that road was pretty treacherous, to say the least, and certainly there's been some movement by the government to address that and certainly upgrade that highway, but I think presently there are plans to do the construction of Highway 75 through the town of Morris. There were a few options, I think, available as to how that was going to happen, but I'm just wondering if the minister can say what stage that is at and how they arrived or how the plan is–what is the plan, I guess, in terms of raising Highway 75 at the north end of the town? Mr.

Lemieux: Well, first of all, let me just say thank you for the question. Highway 75 is our major artery to the United States. This is an important piece to this puzzle that we talk about, this international, mid-continent trade and transportation corridor that we're working with our neighbours to the south of us, the United States and also Mexico. This corridor, we believe, is really at the root of what's going to make Manitoba a prosperous province into the future, and all the way from Churchill, quite frankly, all the way through Manitoba into the United States and into Mexico.

But, in order to do that, we need to have Highway 75 as our major artery, and we've put and budgeted approximately, I think it was around $83 million to get a good start on that particular highway. There are communities like Morris, for example, that is a large centre and which is right on Highway 75. We've had meetings with many of their councillors for the Rural Municipality of Morris as well as the Town of Morris, and we've talked to them about the kind of work that they need to do in their community.

They talked about possible waterlines that need to be done, and we've asked them to submit a plan to us and keep us in the loop with regard to their waterlines because they're going to have to dig up Highway 75 and do some earth work there. So we want to make sure that we're working with them before we do anything with their main street, that if they're going to waterworks, make sure they do it well in advance. In the past, other communities we've put in new highways and then three years later they dig up the highway, their main street, to put waterlines in.

So we're trying to co-ordinate this a little bit better, so we are working and the department is working with the community of Morris to determine what should be done with their main street. Highway 75. There's more work taking place on Highway 75 this summer. We are pleased with the work that's taken place so far. Not only from truckers, but tourists and Manitobans overall have been pleased with the kind of inroads we've made with regard to making improvements there. We have a ways to go yet.

It's not done, but I think overall the plan is in place that we're happy with, and we just need to continue working with municipalities and communities along that route to make sure it's better to where we all wanted to see it. Mrs. Taillieu: I certainly recognize that Highway 75 is a major corridor, a transportation corridor. Literally, thousands of transport semis use that highway as it goes through the town of Morris on a daily basis.

Certainly, the town and the R.M. are looking at the infrastructure that has to go under the highway there to be done at the same time as the highway is torn up. * (15:40) I think that their issue is, it being a major economic highway to the major city in the province and to other hubs, the traffic that's going through the town of Morris is actually traffic that's Manitoba traffic. It's not local traffic. So they've been looking for some kind of help to pay for the infrastructure that is pounded daily by the transportation vehicles that are going along the major route through their small community.

If they were just a small community, not having the highway going right through them, they wouldn't suffer the stresses on the infrastructure that lays below the highway in the town. Their thought is that perhaps it should be somewhat of a Manitoba re sponsibility as well. So I'd ask the minister if that has been a consideration for the town of Morris and the cost of the infrastructure that's going to go underneath the major economic highway through the town of Morris. Mr.

Lemieux: I understand that, currently, the Town of Morris is seeking the services of a consulting engineering firm to determ ine what work is required

928 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 to their existing land drainage system. That's important, because our department builds highways and bridges and asphalt, and do roads, and hire people to do roads. I would say, traditionally, we do not do a town like Morris's plumbing. We don't do their drainage underneath the highway or road. I know I sent a letter to the MLA on March 25 or thereabouts, middle of March, explaining this in a letter, that our department is certainly willing to look at what we can do with regard to their main street, that it's our responsibility, it's Highway 75.

Yes, the MLA is correct. We have a lot of traffic going down Highway 75, a lot from, actually, truck traffic from Saskatchewan and Alberta delivering their goods through the port of Emerson-Pembina crossing. So a lot of that traffic goes through that community. I'm just wondering if the MLA is saying that she wants a bypass to go around that community so it's not going through their main street. Mrs. Taillieu: Certainly, the town and the people of the town have been discussing whether they would like a bypass. It has certainly been an issue that some people favour, and some people do not for economic reasons.

I think there are arguments to be made on both sides. However, I think that would be up to the people who live in the area to make those decisions and then pursue that, and what they decide that they would like to have happen is where we would like to see it go. Going back to my first question, I did ask about north of the town of Morris and over the river, the bridge, and the fact that that is a fairly low area. How is that area going to be addressed?

How is it going to be raised to flood-proofing levels, and then how far into the actual town would that impact, that levelling, be, which would have to be, as it looks, a fairly heightened stretch of the highway? Mr. Lemieux: You know, this particular stretch of road, whether it's the kilometre before or the couple of kilometres after, are all part and parcel of a plan that my department is certainly looking at right now, aside from the bypass. Mr. Daryl Reid, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair The MLA is correct.

Some people want it dearly, and other people are saying that somehow they feel these trucks that are going through town won't stop at their grocery store or gas station, and it might have an impact on their business. That's something that has to be considered, for sure. The plan I'm talking about is something, I think, that really is necessary. Last year, we put about $35.5 million into 75, and then this year we're going to put in another $16 million. Actually, Borland and Mulder Brothers need to be congratulated for the good work they did. Borland Construction and Mulder did a great job on that highway.

Sometimes the public criticize builders because they get paid a good buck and yet they don't deliver the goods. This happens on occasion, and it's regrettable, where you pay good dollars of taxpayers' money to have a job done and contractors do not deliver the goods. They may not have gone to spec, or something has happened with the quality of the asphalt or the concrete, and that's regrettable. But I would say 99 percent of the time we get good product and good construction from the companies we have in Manitoba. We should be proud of that. More work, as I mentioned, is going to happen this year.

It's out for tender right now. Over $16 million more of work on Highway 75. And just getting directly to the question that the MLA asked, there is a plan being looked at right now to determine, do you start a kilometre before the town? Do you raise the bridge going over the Morris River? How far into town do you go then, if you raise the bridge? Also, what about the south end, as well?

So the question is a good one from the MLA for Morris, because these are important questions and I'm sure her constituents are asking her this, but I can tell you right now, this plan that we're looking at, we want to make sure that we do it right. There's a connection here with, also, what the Town of Morris wants to do with their drainage system, their sewer and water, or other works that they want to do. I haven't been advised recently where those discussions are at, but I know that all of these pieces will make the puzzle of making Morris's main street and the community much better.

So we continue to work with this community. It's an important one. It's right on Highway 75. It's one of the few that sit right on 75, and have our 75 highway go right through the downtown as their main street. It's very, very important. Mrs. Taillieu: I think that you said that work would be beginning this summer through the Town of Morris. So, to get into the town, of course, you have to go over that bridge and you have to have a plan, I think, in place to develop the

section just north of the town. I know that people in the town have told me there have been surveyors doing some work, but they

April 23, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 929 don't really understand if that's from the Province or whether that's someone else. I just would like to clarify, though, the actual plan to come from the north end and into the town because, obviously, if you're planning construction to be beginning in the town this summer, there has to be a plan to address how you get there. Mr. Lemieux: I thank the MLA for the questions related to her community. I'm not sure whether or not the Town of Morris just doesn't have the money, right now, to do their drainage work, or where the hold-up is, quite frankly.

It's something I can certainly look into, to find out where this is at, because the last time I had a meeting with the Town of Morris and the R.M. of Morris and the reeve from Morris, there was an issue related to the engineering. They've hired a consulting engineer to determine what their needs are with regard to drainage. I think that's where it's been held up. Actually, I don't anticipate any work happening this summer on the main street of Morris. I understand that this is being held up, quite frankly, because the community is determining what they need to do.

I'm not sure if the MLA knows, or has heard any different, but the last I heard is that they had not received any kind of a study back from the engineer that they hired to determine their drainage. I think that's the only work that might be happening. I'm not sure if sewer and water is also part of that as well. I don't know if the MLA can update me if she's heard anything different recently, but that's the last I've heard. Mrs.

Taillieu: I guess, I'm basically just asking for the engineering plan, because it is a difficult concept to raise the highway north of the Town of Morris and then have the structure come down again to the level of the main street in Mo rris. I know the minister knows what I'm talking about, because when you draw that, there's a very elevated stretch of the highway. So I'm just wondering what kind of engineering plan there is to make that happen and how far into the town it will go. * (15:50) Mr.

Lemieux: I guess I want to be, and I've always been straight with th e MLA from Morris and, hopefully, other MLAs as well with regard to issues. As much as I know, I try to give them as much information as I have, and try to do it in a forthright way. Sometimes it's not always what someone wants to hear, but so be it. These are the facts. Right now, there is not a complete plan put in place, engineering plan done by my department, as far as I know, at least that's what I've been advised recently. Part of this is trying to work with the community of Morris, trying to determine also what they want to do.

In conversations we've had with them, some feel very passionate about bypassing that community; they feel the road should bypass it. Don't replace the bridge and don't raise the road; bypass the community totally. Others feel that you could raise the road, 75 coming in, raise the bridge a little, not that it would go down to the middle of town; that's not what the road would do. I think it could be lessened than that; I mean the down ramp going off the bridge coming into the town heading south, but right now there's a huge debate as the MLA mentioned as to what people want.

Do they want it to go around town to the west or do they want it to go through town? Also, the other piece of this is what do they want to do with their infrastructure underneath Highway 75? I don't have a more recent update than that, just to say that they're not sure what they want to do, quite frankly, because they're still waiting for their engineer's study; they hired an engineer to look at the challenges they've got in the community. Mrs. Taillieu: So there are no engineering plans then to look at raising the highway into the town of Morris. Are there engineering plans to bypass the town of Morris? Mr.

Lemieux: There are no finalized plans right now. We're trying to work with the community, as I mentioned before. Part of it is that we're waiting to see what they want to do, quite frankly, but there are no finalized plans right now. Mrs. Taillieu: The minister says there are no finalized plans but that leads me to believe that they have looked at the possibility of going around the town of Morris. Can the minister confirm that that is something that they're considering? Mr. Lemieux: I think that's hypothetical right now; we don't want to get into that.

We're trying to go piece by piece, and that piece is their engineering consultant they've hired to look at what they want to do with their main street. That's kind of piece one, not that the department just sits and waits for

930 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 23, 2008 communities to complete that, but they've looked at a lot of different options. There are different options to take a look at. For example, when people right now want to bypass Morris in time of flooding, they'll use the RTAC route of No. 3. They take 14 down to, I'm just looking at my map, 3 to 14 and then 14 back to 75. So they use that route right now in case, this year we're fortunate, no flooding, knock on wood, but there are a number of different routes that people use now on their own.

People have made suggestions of using Highway 200 and then using 201 to get onto Letellier Bridge and cross. So there are different routes that people are wanting to look at. There are many challenges related to many different options including that Letellier Bridge. There are environment issues related to Letellier; there are land issues related to Letellier. We're trying to get those clarified as well.

There are many different options, looking at bypassing Morris, but right now there's a lot of talk going on about this, and there's no finalized plan in place as to what to do with the challenges that the town of Morris has. Mrs. Taillieu: Can the minister say if they've looked at a bypass around the town of Morris? I know that that has been a consideration; I know it has been looked at. Is there an estimate of cost, what it would cost to bypass the town of Morris, as a bypass, not alternate routes that are ex isting, but as a newly constructed bypass around the town of Morris? What would be the projected cost?

Mr. Lemieux: I certainly don't have that figure at my fingertips, and I think that, quite frankly, I don't believe the department has either. They don't have that number. It would be large dollars as would even the improvements going through the town of Morris is big money, you know, new bridge included. So it's large amounts of money, certainly, larger than the $16 million we're spending this summer. Yet, having said that, Highway 75 is a major artery to the United States and from the United States to Winnipeg.

We have made a commitment, as a government, that we’re going to tackle this challenge and, with a lot of support we've received from the R.M.s along that particular stretch, we are starting to make huge inroads with regard to the project, Highway 75. Mrs. Taillieu: Okay, I'm going to move on to another highway now and ask some questions about Highway 2 as it goes through my constituency from just west of Starbuck to–well, all the way through to the city of Winnipeg, actually. I've had some questions from constituents that live right near the town of Starbuck.

I would just like to know what are the plans, how is it progressing? What is going to be happening on this stretch, east of Starbuck towards the city of Winnipeg, this summer and next summer? Or what is the plan? Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, just a comment with regard to this project and it's one we're very pleased. I talked about it earlier with the MLA for Pembina (Mr. Dyck ), PTH 2 and 3, I think it's around $60 million that has been invested or is about to be invested into this particular stretch of road.

Last year, we also put, I think it was around $15 million, over $15 million into that stretch, but this year, we're going to be going between, as I understand it, between Fannystelle and Springstein is the stretch we're working on. There's some shoulder widening that's going to be taking place and

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-2-29
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 2nd hansardpdf 29.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	b80b6718aa5a61eafa4fcf75c741679622281d0c

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