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35 th Legislature, 2 nd Session

(March 25, 1996 au October 21, 1998)

Tuesday, October 6, 1998 - Vol. 35 N° 47

Consultations particulières sur l'étude globale du développement de la région Nord-du-Québec

Aller directement au contenu du Journal des débats

Table des matières

Auditions

Administration régionale crie (ARC)

M. Billy Diamond

Fonds régional de solidarité Nord-du-Québec

Remarques finales

M. Michel Létourneau

M. Jean-Pierre Jolivet

M. Geoffrey Kelley

M. Guy Chevrette

Autres intervenants

Mme Madeleine Bélanger, présidente

M. Léandre Dion, président suppléant

*M. Roméo Saganash, ARC

*M. Matthew Coon Come, idem

*M. John Kitchen, Fonds régional de solidarité Nord-du-Québec

*Témoins interrogés par les membres de la commission

Journal des débats

(Neuf heures trente-six minutes)

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Je déclare la séance de la commission de l'aménagement du territoire ouverte. Le mandat de la commission est de poursuivre les consultations particulières sur l'étude globale du développement de la région Nord-du-Québec.

Je demanderais à Mme la secrétaire s'il y a des remplacements.

La Secrétaire: Oui. M. Kelley (Jacques-Cartier) remplace Mme Delisle (Jean-Talon); M. Rivard (Limoilou) remplace Mme Doyer (Matapédia); M. Létourneau (Ungava) remplace M. Duguay (Duplessis); et M. Dion (Saint-Hyacinthe) remplace M. Laurin (Bourget).

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Je vais vous donner l'ordre du jour. Ce matin, à 9 h 30, Administration régionale crie; à 10 h 30, M. Billy Diamond; à 11 h 30, Fonds régional de solidarité Nord-du-Québec, et à 12 h 30 il y aura, pour une demi-heure, les remarques finales, pour un ajournement à 13 heures.

Je pense qu'il est convenu que l'Administration régionale crie a 20 minutes pour présenter son mémoire, ce qui sera suivi d'une période de questions, du côté ministériel, de 20 minutes, et d'une autre période de questions, du côté de l'opposition, de 20 minutes.

Alors, M. Matthew, vous avez la parole. Si vous voulez d'abord présenter les personnes qui vous accompagnent.

Auditions

Administration régionale crie (ARC)

M. Saganash (Roméo): Merci, Mme la Présidente. Je vais quand même procéder d'abord avec la présentation des personnes qui représentent l'Administration régionale crie ce matin.

À mon extrême droite, il y a M. Brian Craig, qui est le directeur des relations avec le gouvernement du Canada pour le Grand Conseil des Cris; à sa gauche immédiate, le grand chef du Grand Conseil des Cris et président de l'Administration régionale crie, M. Matthew Coon Come; à la gauche de M. Coon Come et à ma droite immédiate, M. Billy Diamond, qui est le chef de la communauté de Waskaganish et également négociateur pour le Grand Conseil des Cris dans les négociations avec le gouvernement du Québec, et moi-même, Roméo Saganash, directeur des relations avec le Québec pour le Grand Conseil des Cris.

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Ça va. Alors, le porte-parole, c'est M. Coon Come, le grand chef. Alors, allez-y.

M. Coon Come (Matthew): (S'exprime dans sa langue).

I want to thank you, Mme Bélanger, the chairperson. You speak French and I spoke in Cree; I guess we'll meet halfway and we'll speak English.

(9 h 40)

As you have in front of you our presentation of the Grant Council and Cree Regional Authority presentation, I will spare you from going into details. Il will commence from page 15 in our presentation and I hope, Madam Chair, you will allow me to finish the verbal presentation up to page 21.

The first 14 pages give a brief outline of the history of the industrial development, how it took place on Cree lands and how the Crees were self sufficient and totally relying on the land and the land being the largest employer, then industrial development took place, of course, with mining, forestry, and later on, the megaprojects. Consequently, we felt that we were excluded, didn't have a forum to participate in, and then...

I'm just summarizing from 1 to 14, and then we give a brief outline of 1975, the Agreement, the spirit and intent of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement, of the intentions, of our understanding, of the commitments and, of course, mentionning the unfulfilled... breaches that relate environment, that relate to economic development, that relate to community development, where we see that the obligations and promises committed to us both by the Federal Government and the Provincial Government were not met, and trying to highlight that these are all interrelated, when you talk about development within the North, that that effects the environment, that effects the people, which is the Crees of the nine Cree communities in Northern Quebec.

And we try to outline and try to impress upon this commission of the need to live up to the commitments and promises that were made.

So that's the historical analysis, and I will now proceed to the present situation. On page 15, on the second paragraph, I will commence my presentation. The document which was distributed in the materials inviting us to this forum today contain a description of the present situation in Northern Quebec. This description is interesting in that it reflects some of the biases and misunderstandings which lie behind the present difficulties in establishing a productive framework wherein the Cree people and the non-Native people living in the territory could pursue commonly accepted goals in development.

The document omits reference to the Cree and Inuit nations except in regard to the supposed acknowledgement of our nation's status by the National Assembly of Québec in 1985. The document forgets to note that the aboriginal nations in Québec at that time protested the content of the unilaterally imposed Declaration of the Assembly because it denigrated the status of Québec aboriginal nations.

However, in the first paragraph, the document refers to the Crees and Inuit as ethnic groups, and therefore refers to us as simply the Crees and, in the case of the Inuit, simply as the Inuit. We can only understand this as an attempt to strip us of our unique status, arising from who we are, from the terms of the Agreement and from the terms of the Constitution of Canada. Yes, we are standing before you as individual Crees, but we are a nation, we are a people, and these are the terms in which we insist in participating in our development.

The document completely fails to mention the existence of the structure set up under the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement in 1975 specifically to bring about greater cooperation between the Cree nation and others in the territory. There is no mention made of the legislative and program management committees in either the

section of the Agreement on the environmental and future development or on the

section of the Agreement concerning economic and social development.

Rather, the document lauds the great accomplishment of the structure recently unilaterally imposed by the Québec Government called in our region «Conseil régional de développement Nord-du-Québec». This is a structure which functions to supplement and replace the structures, programs and rights of the Crees as defined in the 1975 Treaty. First and foremost, we demand that the governments of Québec and Canada work with us to set up the institutional structures as described in the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement in such a way as to make that effective.

We do not and will never accept replacement of these fundamental rights by such imposed structures as the regional council or, for example, the James Bay Development Corporation.

We would suggest that Québec suspend the operations of these other entities, at least during the time in which we undertake to set up the implementation of the 1975 commitments of Québec and Canada. Otherwise, they will unavoidably be perceived as an attack on our rights rather than an attempt to secure the orderly development of the territory on a shared basis.

The document also conceals the fact that there is a high unemployment rate in the Cree communities – as high as 50 % in some cases – and that the Crees have very little involvement in the employment created by the development of the territory. Social scientists estimate that when a country reaches more than 15 % unemployment, there is political instability. Few in Québec or elsewhere would stand by with the unemployment levels experienced by the Cree people. My people have been very patient, but our patience is wearing thin.

The structures and programs have never been put in place, which were supposed to increase Cree involvement in the employment benefits of any development. If we look at the over 700 employees of Hydro-Québec in the territory, we Crees presently have less than 1 % of the jobs created by Hydro-Québec in the territory. In respect to mining, the document refers to specific employment figures for specific mines.

And while it is true that Troïlus project is remarkable in that the Crees have managed to secure 67 jobs or 27 % of the jobs created by that project, the fact is that if the overall employment figures for mining had been presented in the document it would have been evident that the Crees presently occupy less than 5 % of the jobs created in this sector in the territory.

The document presents the forestry sector employment figures in a similarly distorted way. While the forest sector from Cree territory creates, in Québec, over 15 000 direct and indirect jobs, the Crees have managed to secure 0,25 % of these jobs, and this only after an investment of several million dollars on our part.

In spite of this lopsided employment situation, the James Bay Development Corporation still finds the moral justification to decry the prominent place the Crees play in regional development and to demand that the resources of the Québec government be devoted to the economic undertakings of the non-Native sector.

In addition to this, the James Bay Development Corporation and some Québec politicians have repeatedly made statements to the effect that the non-Natives should continue to increase their efforts to occupy the territory. The direction of development in Northern Québec clearly shows the apparent inability of the present Government to embrace and see in the Cree nation, as an aspect of social reality, a jurisdiction of government in Northern Québec. An «us Québécois versus them Crees» policy is being promoted in our part of Québec, which runs against the public pretension of the government of Québec that it does in fact recognize and embrace the Cree reality.

We recommend that, if we are to begin on a new path of development, we work together to put into place the structures promised to the Crees in 1975. We must also take concrete steps to correct the inequity that has been created in the development of the territory. We must reverse the policies of inaction, outright refusal to implement, and general hostile attitudes which Cree proposals have too often encountered.

Now, the future. The future begins with the recognition by the Government of Québec of the existence and the place of the Cree nation in the development of the whole of Eeyou Istchee, which is the proper and ancient term for the territory recently glossed as «Radissonie». The future also begins with the proper and effective recognition of the heads of the Cree hunting territories as having a significant and formal role in the determination of land use, practices and planning.

We are ready to work through the Grand Council and the Cree Regional Authority with the Government of Québec and the Government of Canada in defining how this role can be exercised. The lack of recognition of the traditional Cree system of land management has been a major impediment in the implementation of the Agreement. But this cannot be determined without the acceptance of the process and results by the Cree nation through the Grand Council-Cree Regional Authority.

(9 h 50)

To date, development in the North has tended to be development which has been undertaken not in concert with the residents of the North but in large

part in spite of or even against them. We are ready to work with the Government of Québec to see to the proper implementation of the obligations of the governments of Québec and Canada with respect to the Crees. In order for such implementation to benefit the growth and involvement of the Cree nation, there is a need for the proper implementation of the specific mechanisms set out in 1975. Through these mechanisms, we are ready to work with the non-Native population of the territory to promote its sustainable development through laws and policies and programs specifically geared to the Eeyou Istchee context.

Recently, the idea has been put forward by Hydro-Québec that the Crees invest in some future project and that in proportion to the Cree participation the Crees would share in the profits. First of all, we agree with Hydro-Québec that the damages of any project should be compensated and remediated to the extent that this is possible to do. We also stand by the principles of sustainable development as set out in the Bruntland report.

Secondly, however, it is to be noted that the ability of Hydro-Québec to raise capital for projects is largely conditioned by the fact that it has the backing of the Government of Québec and enjoys some monopoly in the sale of electricity. As a result, it has a captive market and is otherwise provided with security by the taxpayer.

The Crees do not have vast quantities of uncommitted capital to put into huge projects. If we had our recognized rights to develop certain resources and the commitment from Hydro-Québec to purchase electricity produced, I am sure that we also could raise capital on a large scale, just as Newfoundland proposes to do in its agreement with Hydro-Québec.

We believe, in any case, that a portion of the revenues created by the development must be diverted directly to the Cree and the non-Cree regional entities according to a formula and mechanism to be agreed to with the Crees. The South not only benefits from the particular resources coming from the North but also benefits from their transformation into sellable products.

We, in the North, both Native and non-Native, have seen very little of the benefit that derives from this transformation of the raw materials taken from our territory. Such industry should be favoured in any development strategy for the future. In addition, the following measures are required:

1° Specific, adequate training and career counseling measures to be undertaken to bring Cree youth and adults into employment opportunities created on the territory;

2° Development agreements to be signed by potential developers with the Cree nation in respect to employment quotas for Crees and Cree companies and strategies for meeting these within reasonable time frames. The Troïlus Agreement is an example of this type of a thing that goes part of the way, and hopefully we can build upon that and go in the right direction;

3° Agreements to be signed between potential developers and the Cree nation in respect to land use and where unavoidable damage occurs; among other measures: remediation and compensation of damages to the traditional Cree way of life due to such projects;

4° Regulations and other measures to be adopted by the governments of Canada and Québec and the Cree nation, to be worked out in consultation with the Cree nation, for implementation of the Agreement obligations concerning employment, and contract preferences to the Cree people in respect to the development on the territory.

5° Recognition of the principle of sustainable and equitable development – and that's including forestry development – as defined by the World Commission on the Environment, by the governments of Canada and Québec as requiring environmental and social sustainability and equitable participation and benefit of the Cree people without which development cannot proceed;

6° Identification of a resource derived revenue source and flow of funding for an Eeyou Istchee Development Bank to be controlled by a Board appointed by the Cree nation – sources will include a substantial portion of present government tariffs, taxes and charges to developers of whatever nature;

7° The adoption of a rolling five year plan for the development of the housing and other municipal infrastructures in the Cree communities to include the funding required to meet present and future needs and to be signed by the Cree nation, Québec and Canada;

8° Implementation of the environmental protection provisions of the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement – without diminishment of roles – in a manner to be agreed to among the Cree nation, Québec and Canada, but to include at a minimum the above requirements for social development as well as the protection for the environment and Cree way of life, as set out in the Agreement;

9° Overall, we also insist that the spirit and intent of the Agreement between us be honoured and respected, namely that our special place in this territory, which is our only space to be in the universe, be honoured and respected. That the stated intention of the other parties to the effect that the Cree people were to be afforded the means and benefits required to protect their economies and ways of life and to continue to survive and thrive in dignity would be forthcoming.

This is our nine point plan.

We are not begging, or even asking, for access to our lands and resources so that our people can work to support themselves and so that our nation can benefit from its birthright. The Creator put us here and gave us the means to survive and thrive in this place. It is others who have taken and are continuing to take steps to colonize or dispossess us, and leave us for all intents and purposes dependent on government handouts. This cannot continue.

We have mentioned, in the first 14 pages of our brief, the human context of our social and economic rights. The International Covenant on Social, Economic and Cultural Rights is binding international law, including the governments of Québec and of Canada. It provides that under no circumstances shall a people be deprived of its own means of subsistence. It also provides that all peoples have a right of self-determination, which includes the right to dispose freely from – and thus benefit from or even retain – their own resources.

Any purported extinguishment of our rights to our lands and resources certainly constitutes a breach of our human rights as a people. No government, no crown, no power has the right to leave an indigenous people dependant while benefiting grossly from the colonization and removal of its wealth of its traditional lands. If this were done to Québec, it would be identified for what it is: a breach of fundamental human rights.

No lesser standard can justifiably be applied to us. The time for our people, the James Bay Crees and Eeyou Istchee, to share in and benefit meaningfully from the resources in our Cree traditional lands is now. When our people enjoy a level of social development equivalent to that of the non-aboriginal peoples in Québec and Canada, then we will know we have done this job.

In any case, we are certain that Quebeckers would not knowingly wish to be associated with any ongoing violation of our economic and social human rights. Our plan is for the governments of Québec and Canada to live up to what they promised in 1975. We will not accept less.

If we are to advance, we must implement what was promised to the Crees in 1975 and what is consistent with international laws and standards. Twenty-three years after the signature of the Agreement, we should be moving beyond what was agreed to so as to upgrade the standards to reflect advancements in the standards for environmental protection and for the protection of human rights. We would be opening the door to the increased violation of our rights if we did not insist on at least obtaining the promises of 1975 before discussing improvements to this.

We are ready to proceed, but there is a substantial shortfall to be met before we can discuss with you on an equal footing, a nation to nation basis, the means to improve the development and the protection of the territory, Eeyou Istchee. We are ready to proceed with these discussions and we, the Crees, have plans for development. And we agreed to many things with you in 1975. You gave your solemn commitments, and the time is overdue for you to implement with us not only what we agreed to in 1975, but how we can meet the objectives of today.

(10 heures)

With that, Madam Chair, I thank you and I would be more than happy to answer your questions. Meegwetch!

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Thank you, M. Coon Come. M. le ministre.

M. Chevrette: Oui, Mme la Présidente.

Merci pour votre présentation. Thank you for your presentation. Je voudrais tout d'abord faire quelques commentaires. Il est bien évident que vous profitez de cette tribune pour situer l'ensemble du panier de revendications. Je vais cependant essayer de m'en tenir beaucoup à l'objet même ou à l'objectif de la commission. Et, ma première question, j'aimerais vous entendre porter un jugement de valeur plus précis sur le rôle qu'Hydro-Québec peut jouer, de façon additionnelle, pour le développement du territoire de la Baie James.

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Mr. Coon Come.

M. Coon Come (Matthew): Thank you very much. It must be understood that after James Bay 1 was built, when you wanted to proceed with Great Whale, and Nottaway, Broadback, Rupert rivers, we felt that we were the ones who had lived with the first impacts of the project.

We are not anti-development towards hydroelectric development projects. What we have said is that there is need to look at alternative needs to energy, to look at cogeneration, to look at energy efficient programs, look at demand-side management, look at the run off the river project, combination of solar and wind energy. And to pursue in that avenue, of course, in consideration of the environment and how we can continue the way of life of my people, as hunters, fishermen and trappers.

If there was a project that we're to look at that is environmentally sound, if there was a project that was profitable, if there was a project that addressed the Cree issues, and if there was a project that we could see in the possibility of living with it, I think there is... But diverting major rivers and trying to chain eight major rivers is unacceptable.

So Hydro-Québec would have to look at its plans, of how it can involve people that directly live there.

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. le ministre.

M. Chevrette: Oui. La deuxième question sur laquelle j'aimerais vous entendre, à deux ou trois reprises dans le texte – en tout cas, du moins, dans le texte que j'avais, et qui ne recevait pas exactement la même traduction – quand vous parlez de base commune entre les différentes communautés du territoire, j'aimerais savoir si vous avez des exemples très concrets de collaboration possible entre ce qu'on appelle – et que je n'aime pas, mais le mot – allochtones, dans le cadre des institutions prévues à la Convention de la Baie James. Donnez-moi donc des exemples concrets de collaborations que vous aimeriez voir naître, si elles ne sont pas nées.

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. Coon Come.

M. Coon Come (Matthew): I am just waiting for translation. Sorry.

To involve the Crees, to be full participants, to share in the wealth of the land, would it be extraction of the trees or water, to look at innovate and create measures and to deal with the concerns of the people that directly live there.

And to do that, we had agreed in setting up certain institutions. Those institutions and certain guidelines have been developed to protect that Cree way of life, through environmental measures, to involve the First Nations through various committees so our issues could be addressed. The types of projects that can be initiated cannot be undertaken by Crees themselves alone. The projects that have a boom and bust, that come in just develop and leave, can't no longer continue. The type of projects that can enhance and involve the Crees and the non-Natives that live in Chapais, Chibougamau, Val-d'Or, that live in Quévillon, La Sarre, Matagami and even, I dare say, Radissonie.

We will not leave the territory, we're there to stay. And we certainly feel that, through the 1975 Agreement, a mechanism was in place in which there would be a direct participation of the nine Cree communities. In any development that takes place, unfortunately that is not the case, that is not what is happening. We feel that we are excluded by certain entities that were created, like the Development Corporation, but I feel that we can upgrade, we can change those structures, we can address them so we can meet the needs of today, to deal with the circumstances of today, because there are certain issues that we thought, at that time, that would work.

I think we are prepared to be able to sit down with the Government of Québec, with the Government of Canada and the business community to be able to proceed and come up with solutions. My problem, of course, is that when we sign agreements, once the non-Native party got what they want, we are left with the crumbs, trying to get out and push for the implementation of the agreements we've signed. SODAB is an example. It was never implemented, hardly no discussions nor concrete, real meetings. Joint ventures? Never heard of them.

But did you see all kinds of ventures that have been initiated by the non-Native community within the whole area of Quévillon, Val-d'Or, Chibougamau-Chapais? But it doesn't involve the Crees. Certainly, if you involve the people that live there, that's a giant step to reconciliation, to a form of restoration of dignity, of being included in a process, of being full participants in what's happening in the territory.

M. Saganash (Roméo): Si je peux rajouter un point là-dessus, Mme la Présidente?

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Oui.

M. Saganash (Roméo): Je trouve que c'est une question qui est extrêmement importante, surtout lorsqu'on parle de collaboration dans le territoire. Nous, notre impression a toujours été que, même si le mot n'était pas à la mode à l'époque, le document qui est devant nous, la Convention de la Baie James, est un document de partenariat.

Il est vrai que – et on en a fait grand état devant cette commission la semaine dernière – il y aurait un sentiment d'exclusion de la part des autres personnes qui vivent dans le territoire – je refuse d'utiliser le mot «ethnie» – mais des autres personnes qui vivent dans le territoire se sentent effectivement exclues du processus de collaboration et de partenariat qu'on s'était donné avec la Convention de la Baie James.

(10 h 10)

Je ne le sais pas, il y a peut-être un problème de représentation, il y a peut-être un problème à ce niveau-là, et une des choses qu'on avait suggérées il n'y a pas tellement longtemps, c'est qu'on puisse nommer, dans les mécanismes qui sont prévus, les organismes qui sont prévus par la Convention, des gens, pour siéger sur ces comités, de la région. Plutôt que de nommer des fonctionnaires de Québec pour siéger sur ces comités, pourquoi ne pas avoir nommé des gens de la région? Peut-être qu'il y aurait eu plus de collaboration entre les personnes qui vivent vraiment dans le territoire.

D'où l'importance, je crois, d'insister – en tout cas, pour nous – sur la mise en oeuvre de la Convention de la Baie James, parce que, comme M. Coon Come vient de le souligner, nous, on a toujours eu l'impression que, une fois que les gouvernements ont obtenu ce qu'ils voulaient à l'époque, en 1975, c'est-à-dire le projet La Grande, on a donné l'impression que le reste, ce n'était pas important ou très peu important. Alors, je pense qu'il faut retourner à ces aspects-là.

M. Chevrette: À ce stade-ci, je vais me permettre un commentaire, quand même. Quand on lit votre mémoire, moi, je trouve que ça ne donne pas justice à ce qui se fait. Et parlons de territoire.

Lebel-sur-Quévillon, Chapais, Chibougamau, ça existait, ça, avant la Convention de la Baie James, et, sur le territoire sur lequel on discute, il y a 32 000 personnes environ; 20 000 allochtones, 12 000 Cris. Et, moi, je dois vous dire que, quand je regarde les efforts qui sont faits... Le fonds de compensation, c'était pour aider précisément la mise sur pied d'entreprises autochtones. C'est environ 75 000 000 $ qui a été versé, me dit-on, dans ce fonds.

Quand on arrive aux CLD, centres locaux de développement, c'est parce qu'on me l'a demandé, d'en créer trois, qu'il y en a trois. Si on m'avait dit un, il y en aurait eu un. Des associations touristiques, c'est parce qu'on en voulait trois, sinon il y en aurait eu une. Le Conseil régional de la Radissonie, ça vous déplaisait. On a enlevé le mot «Radissonie» puis on a dit: Conseil régional de développement de la Baie James, précisément pour provoquer le sentiment d'appartenance. La régie de la santé, c'est la même chose, et je pourrais continuer... le scolaire.

Moi, je trouve qu'on doit aussi dire les efforts qui se font présentement par la voie de la négociation. Je suis heureux que M. Saganash ait utilisé le mot «partenariat». C'est exactement le thème que vous retrouvez dans notre politique adoptée en avril dernier. Et partenariat pour définir les pratiques ancestrales, et tout, partenariat pour le développement économique, partenariat pour les problèmes sociaux, parce qu'il y en a de majeurs. Moi, je suis prêt, puis je pense que c'est ce qu'on fait présentement. Et il y a un effort de redressement pour l'application de la Baie James, parce que vous avez dit...

Vous venez de dire à peu près ceci, puis je ne voudrais pas interpréter mal, mais vous avez dit: Après que les gouvernements ont obtenu les permis de bâtir LG 2, ils ont laissé tomber.

Je n'ai pas l'impression, depuis deux ans, que c'est ça qu'on fait. Avec la signature d'un MOU l'an passé, rendu public sous les yeux des caméras à Montréal, la signature d'un deuxième MOU pour la deuxième année puis l'enclenchement d'une négociation pour une troisième, moi, je trouve que c'est pas mal être respectueux, en tout cas. S'il y a eu des erreurs passées, il ne faut peut-être pas faire le procès exclusivement du passé, mais regarder ce qui se fait à présent pour corriger le passé. C'est un peu un message que je voulais passer.

En vous demandant, maintenant, comment vous voyez le recentrage de la Société de développement de la Baie James, puisque c'est aussi un signataire de la Convention de la Baie James. Donc, c'est une structure de la Convention de la Baie James. Je vous propose de la recentrer, de recentrer son rôle. Comment voyez-vous son nouveau rôle?

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. Coon Come ou M. Saganash? M. Saganash.

M. Saganash (Roméo): Je pense que la question d'une Société de développement de la Baie James a fait l'objet de discussions lorsque vous êtes venu, au mois de mai, je crois, à Oujé-Bougoumou, et on vous a fait part de nos préoccupations vis-à-vis cet organisme... comme vous signez, signataire également de la Convention de la Baie James. On fait part dans notre mémoire des difficultés des relations que nous avons eues avec cet organisme par le passé, la façon dont cet organisme a travaillé, en tout cas, selon nous, contre les intérêts des Cris dans le territoire, pour le développement économique du territoire. Et on a fait part de ce problème dans notre mémoire.

Je crois et je pense qu'on vous a fait part de cette réponse à Oujé-Bougoumou, il y a nécessité, effectivement, de recentrer ou de réorienter cet organisme-là. Le ministre des Finances, lors de son discours sur le budget, a déjà donné quelques signaux vis-à-vis cette réorientation, et on vous a fait part de d'autres lors de votre visite à Oujé-Bougoumou. Évidemment, s'il faut recentrer ou réorienter les objectifs de cet organisme-là, il y a lieu de prendre en considération les droits et les intérêts des Cris qui se trouvent dans le territoire, tel qu'on s'y était engagé à l'époque, en 1975.

M. Chevrette: ...de vous demander de faire le lien, par exemple, avec le fait qu'on réactiverait SODAB; quelle devrait être la complémentarité entre SODAB et SD?

M. Saganash (Roméo): La SD avait une participation directe dans SODAB par le passé; ce n'est plus le cas maintenant. Mais la question se pose: Est-ce qu'on doit poursuivre avec la Société de développement de la Baie James ou n'y aurait-il pas lieu aujourd'hui de mettre en place un nouvel organisme qui impliquerait tout le monde dans le territoire? Il y a neuf communautés cries dans le territoire; il y a à peine une demi-douzaine de communautés non autochtones, ou québécoises, si vous préférez, dans le territoire. Donc, de quelle façon est-ce qu'on peut impliquer les personnes dans ce nouvel organisme avec la nouvelle orientation qu'on pourrait à ce moment-là définir?

D'autre part, par rapport à SODAB, nous aussi, notre réflexion s'est développée, et on est rendu à proposer dans notre mémoire une banque de développement autochtone pour le territoire avec les argents qui restent à venir – doit-on le souligner à nouveau? – du gouvernement du Québec par rapport à SODAB ou à la Société de développement autochtone de la Baie James. On rappelle depuis toujours les engagements de 1975 par rapport aux 15 000 000 $ que SODAB devait avoir; jusqu'à maintenant – je pense que tout le monde le sait – on a eu 4 000 000 $.

Donc, il reste 11 000 000 $ qui n'a pas encore été payé pour cet organisme-là. Mais maintenant, je pense qu'avec les réalités d'aujourd'hui il y a lieu d'en discuter pour mettre en place un nouvel organisme. On est ouvert à ça et on le dit dans notre mémoire.

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Merci, M. Saganash. Le temps est terminé. Alors, M. le député de Jacques-Cartier.

M. Kelley: Merci beaucoup, Mme la Présidente. Grand Chief Coon Come, Chief Diamond, Mr. Saganash, Mr. Craig, my Cree isn't very good, so I will address you in English if that's O.K.

(10 h 20)

First, thank you very much for your comments. I think that the parts of the memoir that do the history from 1975 to the present are always useful, because the Convention has had already, you know, a history, and I think it's important to remember all of that. And I guess my first question is... There seem to be two messages in your presentation. The first one is that our first step is to respect the commitments that date from 1975; but at the same time we're trying to create some sort of opening to other ways of doing things. I just think of one area of the James Bay Agreement where I worked closely, which was

chapter 19 dealing with policing, and I think that the models that were signed on, two at that time, people agreed to, but we've agreed that, at least for one of the two models proposed in that chapter, it's no longer what we're looking for. The idea of Cree units of the Sûreté du Québec was something that may have been attractive in 1975, but in 1998 I think we've moved on to other ideas of how policing in the Cree territory should be done.

So, how do we, at the one time, try to live up to what is existing and, at the same time, move forward? What is the process? Do we, sort of sector by sector, undertake new commitments, try to find new structures? Because I must confess I have a bit of an allergy to having too many structures, and we've been hearing all sorts of names fly by this morning of things that should be created, and I'm getting a little bit at loss with all these different organizations.

So, what is the best way to proceed to, at the same time, the first part of your brief, which seems to tell us to live up to our commitments of 1975, but in the second part of your brief, when you're talking about the future, to move on to new directions?

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger)

: M. Coon Come.

M. Coon Come (Matthew): Thank you very much. Our leaders were honorable men – ... was one of the principal negotiators. I'm assuming that the government's men were also honorable men with the greatest intentions of trying to resolve and improve those conditions and to try to deal with the Crees' issues. And we are trying build upon those foundations that have been laid by previous governments and some of our leaders who are still with us, who have a really good corporate memory of the intentions and spirit of those institutions that were contemplated in the Agreement.

So, I believe that there is room to be able to build upon those institutions that we wanted to set up, because if we don't do that, then we're going to be throwing away everything else and starting on a clean slate. That's not possible, because the idea was to set up those institutions, involve First Nations in areas, whether it be employment, whether it be training, whether it be in resource exploitation, whether it be construction maintenance work, whether it be natural resources enterprises, and all of that in taking into consideration environmental issues. If we are to strengthen the environmental regime and if you promote some form of... development, then you have to also consider

section 24, which deals with hunting, fishing and trapping, so that way of life can continue. Because right now the land is still the largest employer for us. But at the same time recognizing, as Chief Diamond will tell you and as the governments of the day will tell you, we wanted to give a choice to future generations: those who want to pursue the hunting, fishing and trapping way of life, you protect that, and those who want to participate in new age economy.

So, consequently, I think we have to merge those. And I believe in involving the Crees. Minister Chevrette asked about SODAB. Under SODAB, when it was originally set up, we created 54 small businesses, and, as you all know, it's small businesses that create most of the employment. But that stopped. Some of them succeeded, some of them failed. But there was a hindrance, because, as Roméo mentioned, the million dollars that was provided for was not there. But the idea was to... What? To stimulate the economy. Through what?

Through tourism, through forestry, through mining and whatever developments that might take place. And that would presumably mean that there is capital, and, if the Crees are involved, that there would be some form of revenue sharing, in which we can insist on some employment equity, and we can insist that those joint ventures involve some preferential treatment to our entities. Because we're not on the same level yet. So that is a challenge.

M. Kelley: No, and I think it's a very important one, and I think, you know, on page 5 of your memoir, your brief, you do a very good job of saying that what's good for the Cree is in a certain way good for the region as well, because the money that comes in will get spent in Chibougamau or will get spent in Val-d'Or or Matagami. So there is something that makes the region move forward, makes the region move forward together. I mean, you say on page 5: Money flows South off and only too quickly. Maire Lemoyne, when he was here last week, more or less told us the same thing.

So I guess what... I guess they're the two levels we're working on, the development of the Cree nation and the things that are good for the Cree nation. But how do we set up? Is it by adapting the institutions in the James Bay Agreement or imagining new things?

But I take something like tourism. I can understand that there is a specific Cree element to the promotion of tourism. But there're a lot of things that would be good for the whole region, that working with the Inuit, working with the Naskapi, working with other people in the North to promote the region together. And there are things that you can do only on Cree territory, there are things you can only do with the Inuit, there are other things that you might be able to do in Radisson. How can we create mechanisms that...

Because a lot of the points, a lot of the feeling of distance from Quebec city have been neglected. This feeling that you're almost... this permanent work site, that people come and go off the planes, they make their money and they run, and none of the money is left in the region to insure a sort of ungoing prosperity. How can we create mechanisms for that to change?

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. Coon Come.

M. Kelley: But take the specific example of tourism. As I said, I understand that from a Cree, a uniquely Cree standpoint, to develop a Cree Tourist Association would be the best way to get people to go to Waskaganish, take the canoe trips into the rivers and enjoy something about the Cree territory. But there are also other tourist attractions, there are other things. How can we get people drawn to the entire region and perhaps have economic benefits for everybody who lives in the North?

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. Coon Come.

M. Coon Come (Matthew): We, of course, would want the establishment of Cree tourism. That is not dependent on policies of Québec... and in order to promote specific areas of our interest. The problem, the challenge that we have, is that Québec has every intentions to try to consolidate all the associations under one umbrella. That's the intent of the Government of Québec. And certainly, that's the Government's agenda. We certainly would like to pursue and have our own association in which we can promote our own interests, and we can be members of another regional association if we want to be. And there should be room to allow for that. So you have a general idea.

But you made a commitment, the Government of Canada, the Government of Québec made a commitment in regards to setting up these... providing, so you could do your own promotion, you could do your own management and be able to develop your tourism in five years plans or whatever. Right now, we cannot do anything. It's only on paper. But give it... Because we wanted a chance to be able to develop those plans. And certainly, the present Government of Québec opts out for some five years strategic plans. We're all for that.

M. Kelley: But you need the resource as a pre-condition to participate.

M. Coon Come (Matthew): But you need human resources, you need financial resources, and that was the intent of the Agreement.

(10 h 30)

M. Kelley: Because it's a little bit... I'd like to hear you, because there is the Regional Council for the Development of Northern Québec, le Conseil de développement du Nord-du-Québec, and a bit the same argument was made by le maire Lemoyne, that this is fine but a lot of their own resources as well are being eaten up to talk about this larger regional development, and they make an argument as well that they don't have the resources in the structures to participate in these larger bodies. You know, I think on page 16, you argue, I think, very forcefully against the «us versus them». That's got to end.

We have to find ways to work together, as opposed to working against each other, and I'm just trying to figure out what the most efficient way is to make that happen, how can we get... and not taking away from Cree development, because I understand that, for the Grand Council, your first responsibility is for the development of the Cree economy and the Cree nation. But how can we work things out so that what might be good for you might also be good for the Inuit or for the Naskapi and may also be good for the people who live in Lebel-sur-Quévillon?

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. Coon Come.

M. Coon Come (Matthew): I think we have every intention to try to meet with the other mayors and then the municipalities themselves so we can assess and maybe agree on certain principles that we can work towards and, certainly, I think we've made that known to the present Government of Québec, of our intentions to follow up. Because we never really had any meetings of the Native and non-Native governments in the territory and we never had our own economic summit within the territory.

And I think that this is where the present governments have to come in and provide those financial and human resources so that we can have a very good discussion, because that is the only way to solve that. I mean, we certainly would be interested in some joint ventures, no doubt, and we certainly believe in some form of competition within the territory, but I think our problem has been that we've never had a chance to really meet. Everybody is trapped financially, in human resources, etc.

M. Saganash (Roméo): I would like to add an important point, I think. If you take the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement and if you look at what the Cree have been doing since they signed the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement, they have done two things. Well, one thing, actually. We've spent our time in courts trying to get the governments to respect the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement or trying to get the governments to apply an appropriate

interpretation of the provisions of the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement.

Now, if we had time to develop not only economic development, but develop relationships with the other people in the territory, perhaps it would be better today. But we've been spending, every year since 1978, our time in courts arguing with government representatives, in court, and that's one of the major problems, it seems to me, what's been happening in the territory since 20 years now.

M. Kelley: Another area is job creation, employment. I understand, Chief Coon Come, your two paths that people can take, and the people who want to stay in the traditional... But can you tell me, in two specific cases, first, working for Hydro and also this Troïlus project, just in specific terms, how they work and what has the Cree experience been working, first, for Hydro-Québec and, secondly, how are people taking to jobs in the Troïlus project?

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. Coon Come.

M. Coon Come (Matthew): On working with the existing installations of Hydro-Québec, I think it was the intention of the Agreement that we have signed that there could be training, there could be employment opportunities. We, as a matter of fact, came with the figure of 150 jobs that should be created. To this day, I believe there are only about five Cree that are working within the permanent installations of Hydro-Québec, in terms of operating those facilities.

I think the present generation will have difficulty in working for Hydro-Québec because of the Cree's position, but I think future generations – and we are the generation that felt those impacts, we have a different view of Hydro-Québec – but the next generation might have a different view, and that is for them to decide, but we should certainly prepare the way for them and direct them, that these are the areas that need to be... there are job opportunities that are there and provide career counselling and a direction.

The Troïlus itself, when you created 67 jobs and allowed training, the Troïlus Agreement itself with the mining company certainly was a good agreement but hasn't gone far enough. Because we are more interested in being involved and directly benefiting from the profits.

We want to share in what is being extracted from the land and we would like to go down that avenue, explore as to how we can do that so that we're not getting just jobs, but also that we can create our own sources of revenue, our own sources of bank that we're talking about, in some sort, so that we won't come, hopefully, that many times to the government for government handouts, to administer our own programs and the services that we want to provide, so that we can get away from that, from the dependency on the governments, so that we can be more independent.

In the present status, as it is now, we feel we're strapped. And I think that we can break away from that, and I think that the Minister Chevrette would be glad not to see me for a couple of days, knowing that we won't have to depend on that.

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Thank you, M. Coon Come. It's finished.

M. Chevrette: Est-ce qu'on pourrait avoir une minute pour les remercier?

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Oui, allez-y, M. le ministre.

M. Chevrette: Je voudrais faire une couple de phrases pour vous remercier d'abord de votre présentation, et je voudrais faire une affirmation, une invitation. Je me rends compte qu'il y a des différences de perception et des divergences de vues également au sujet des assises et des éléments fondamentaux de la Convention de la Baie James. Et je pense qu'il serait souhaitable, et je formule le voeu, que nous puissions en discuter très ouvertement et dans un contexte non judiciaire. Je suis persuadé que c'est la voie à emprunter, c'est la négociation.

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Merci.

Alors, merci de votre participation.

Je demanderais maintenant à M. Billy Diamond de bien vouloir s'approcher à la table.

(Changement d'organisme)

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. Diamond, vous avez 20 minutes pour faire votre présentation.

M. Billy Diamond

M. Diamond (Billy): Good morning...

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): J'aimerais que vous présentiez les personnes qui vous accompagnent, s'il y en a.

M. Diamond (Billy): This morning, I'm accompanied by our advisers, Mr. John Ryan as well as James MacGregor.

Good morning, Madam Chairperson, members of the commission. It's an honor and a great pleasure for me to represent the Cree Nation of the Eeyou Istchee at this parliamentary commission. I'm also privileged, as the Chief of the Waskaganish First Nation and the chief Cree negotiator for the Cree Québec negotiations, to share with you the extraordinary achievements of our people over the past few decades also as to present to you our aspirations and visions for the new millennium.

(10 h 40)

During the course of my remarks this morning, I would like to weave a web of opportunities, initiatives and alliances intended to build a structure for the creation of a self-reliant Cree community in the next century. I would also suggest that creating this foundation for the future requires a renewed partnership and creative coexistence with the government of Québec and the people of Québec.

You are all, of course, familiar with the fact that we have inhabited the James Bay region or, as we know it, Eeyou Istchee for the past 200 years in relative isolation from the rest of the world.

However, in the past two or three generations, we have radically intensified our contact with other cultures and nations. That interaction has frequently been difficult, frustrating, at times destructive. But it has very quickly taught us to understand and deal with other cultures, including their mix of communities, committees, cooperations and commissions.

It is quite remarkable that when you think that my father and his generation had little or no opportunity to stand before people such as yourselves and discuss future development options in practical, financial and cooperative terms... But the James Bay Northern Québec Agreement, negotiated in the seventies, have effectively fast-tracked our capabilities to communicate, negotiate and cooperate with non-Native cultures.

Some would say it has been more like a roller coaster ride. I like to think of it as a canoeing adventure on our magnificent Rupert River. We have negotiated the sometimes raging rapids, explored each new island and survived the treacherous waterfalls. And now we are ready to move out onto calmer waters of the bay to meet the incoming waves of opportunities that will connect us to the rest of the world and define our future. Nowhere is this image of change more concrete than in my community of Waskaganish, where we have the dubious reputation of being one of the last communities in North America south of 60th parallel that is not connected to other urban centers with a permanent road.

Imagine for a moment what it is like to not be able to drive more than a few kilometers from your home. This situation is not acceptable if we are to survive in the next century. However, the current prospect for a permanent road represents one of the greatest challenges and opportunities to face my people in the past 50 years.

In fact, we are already calling in this new highway «the road to opportunity». But it will not merely link us to Matagami and LG 2 road, nor will it get us to Val-d'Or for weekend shopping sprees; nor will it simply allow us to visit our relatives in other communities along the coast. No, my friends. It will become a corridor, a conduit, a connection that will open us to the world and invite the world to us.

Just think: People who can hardly pronounce the word «Waskaganish» today will be able to drive from Montréal, Québec or Ottawa to visit us and the James Bay coast in half the time it takes you to drive to the crowded beaches of Florida. I will get back to our beaches later, but let me again stretch the incredible opportunities this permanent road represents for my community.

And we are ready. The two days of scoping hearings on the road development that were held in Waskaganish last summer provided an excellent forum for trappers, youth, teachers, parents and special interest groups to express their concerns. And, at the end of the day, there was overwhelming approval for the road. Everybody wants it. Even the trappers, who had every reason to be apprehensive about a road that cuts across their trapline, support the project.

Why? Because they have children. These folks know very well that their daughters and sons cannot make the same living off the land that they have for centuries. Trappers are very pragmatic people. They realize that the trapline can only be divided amongst a certain number of people, and the rest of the children must find other revenue sources, and the road can provide those alternatives.

The strongest proponents for the road are the youths. They know that if the road and associated infrastructure is not in place, then their future is quite frankly bleak.

Ladies and gentlemen, I must find more than 450 new jobs for the youth over the next 10 years in Waskaganish alone. This is the number of people entering the work force between now and the year 2008. And that is an excess of the jobs that we should be generating right now for the adult population. The road to opportunity represents the first real mechanism to meet this employment challenge. It will become the backbone or spine on which we hang our hopes to attract the economic development opportunities that will carry us into a prosperous new millennium.

I am reminded of the very attractive and colorful map in our band office that shows the proposed road corridor between the Matagami LG 2 road and Waskaganish. On either side of the red line that represents the road, there are a series of round circles; each circle actually represents a proposed tourism development sight, such as an

interpretation center, picnic area or campground, and when I stand back from this plan, I see it in a much broader perspective. In fact, one circle may suggest the new transportation company, another, either a new construction enterprise or a tourism operation, or a training center or even an energy company. All of these colorful circles symbolize new revenue and job opportunities created by the road, the spine, the backbone, the «épine dorsale» of our new economic future. I can think of three immediate opportunities that emerge from the opening of the road.

That is, of course, tourism, which I will come back to later, but there is also the potential of the construction of houses and shelters and development of mini-hydroelectric projects on the Broadback or Rupert rivers.

Housing and shelter construction. There is a desperate backlog of 2 500 housing units in all the Cree communities. This in itself is an intolerable situation that has resulted in extreme overcrowding, as many as 25 people in one house, which leads to family violence and numerous social problems. But it can be turned into an opportunity for a community such as Waskaganish. A housing-shelter construction plant in our own industrial park could provide completed houses or even components such as trusses to all the other Cree communities.

Because of the new road, we could transport units throughout the region as well as encourage Cree from other locations to work in our plant. This is one of my preferred industries because it is sustainable and stimulates information, education and technology transfer from the South. It can also operate year around, which is an additional blessing for a northern industry.

At an average cost of 100 000 $ per housing unit, construction activity could translate into an expenditure 250 000 000 $ over the next decade. Housing units could also be sold to forestry and mining companies instead of transporting them from the South. Who knows? We could even start exporting units and even our own technology to northern regions in Russia or China or Mongolia. Remember, we already have experience with large companies, such as the Yamaha Corporation where we had a successful joint venture several years ago.

Mini-hydro electric projects. Needless to say, this is one of my favorite topics because the largest hydroelectric project is being built my backyard, and the community of Waskaganish is still the only community in the province of Québec that does not have a decent electricity supply. And even with the diesel power generating at an astonishing 0,59 $ per kWh... If that was not bad enough, we are further contributing to global warming through the unnecessary burning of fossil fuels, relying on imported oil and polluting our precious atmosphere, in direct conflict with our Cree values.

We have the rivers, we have the resources, the rights belong to us, and we are capable of quickly learning the necessary technology, the transfer of technology to build, to operate and maintain a low impact mini-hydro electric project on our territory, in our own backyard, so to speak. The only condition is that we are opposed to flooding, we are opposed to river diversions, but we are in favor of environment-friendly projects, we are in favor of run-of-the-river projects.

It is these and other industries, such as mining and forestry, that will insure a viable and prosperous future for my people. The condition is that people are eager to learn, that Cree have to be trained and that they are excited about learning new technologies, and you must give them that opportunity.

(10 h 50)

We also want industries that can contribute to overall northern development and provide benefits to non-Native suppliers and contractors and distributors in Matagami, Val-d'Or, Amos, in La Sarre and Chibougamau, the surrounding communities.

Il would now like to take a closer look at one of these new economic opportunities, as Mr. Kelley has mentioned: tourism. Some of you may not know it, but tourism is the world's largest industry, generating more than 4.5 trillion Canadian dollars and generating 260 000 000 jobs annually. Revenues in Canada last year were remarkable: 44 000 000 000 $, up to more than 5 % over 1996. Tourism is also an extremely important and growing business for the Québec economy, particularly in the North because of the increased consumer interest in ecotourism and adventure travel.

We want to be involved, we want a share in this multibillion dollar sector. Least you think that we are not serious about tourism, let me tell you about our history with this sector.

Waskaganish was the first Northern community to prepare a detailed tourism development strategy, in 1993, and we have been operating under that plan ever since. We have just also just completed our community master plan which places a significant emphasis on tourism infrastructures. We have completed a four-year ecotourism guide training program for more than 20 students, and during a recent internship at one of Québec's most prestigious corporative sportfishing resorts, two of our students were offered jobs on the spot.

We have been in serious discussions with the Dufour family, one of the Québec premier inbound tour operators, to establish a strategic alliance by next summer. The permanent road has been designed with tourism in mind, the tourist in mind. In fact, with adequate funding, we anticipate that it will be the most exciting 100 km tourism corridor in Québec, a mix of picnic sites, haltes routières and

interpretation centers, and a spectacular view of our Rupert River RV camp will provide the «rubber tire» traveller with one of the most memorable driving experiences in Canada.

We have the undisputed jewel of northern lodges. For those of you who have not seen the Kanio Kashee Lodge, it is strategically located on the shore of Rupert River. At this time of year, you are likely to see a beluga whale swimming past the 40 foot high windows in the grand dining hall as you enjoy our traditional food. Our tourism office, Tourism Waskaganish, has hosted several tourism seminars, including the first International Community Native Tourism Symposium in Canada. We have started an extensive marketing campaign two years ago and staff have regularly attended the Grand Air Travel Trade Show in Montréal.

I also have brought copies of our tourism brochure for you. And they have been distributed as far away as Japan, Australia and South America. We are doing our share to promote Québec, we are doing our part. So we have taken the initiative, we have made the initial investments, demonstrated our commitment to tourism and other industrial sectors. But much remains to be done if we are to take our proper place in the stage. Using tourism as an example, there is a pressing need to move forward on two fronts.

Number one, strengthening existing partnerships and create new strategic alliances. There must be an Cree outfitting tourism association. That's called for in the James Bay Agreement, but let the operators create it. Then let the operators decide how to have strategic alliances with the Radissonie group, with the town of Matagami, with the town of Val-d'Or and so on.

Constructing the necessary infrastructure to insure a quality product for local businesses, our financial partners and tourists. It is very important, ladies and gentlemen, that the product be made available to the tourist and that the tourist be a repeated tourist. We don't want to see what happens in Moose... Ontario, where the tourists take a polar bear express on the O&R and they expect to see a polar bear. There is no polar bear in Moose...!

What we want to see in Waskaganish and the Cree communities is for the tourists to come back again and again and promote the economy not only locally but also regionally.

As I mentioned as recently as two weeks ago, we met with Alain Dufour of the Dufour family to discuss the logistics of sending approximately 30 tourists a week to Waskaganish next summer. This initiative could immediately generate annual revenues of 300 000 $ and could eventually expand to other Cree communities. Our tourism office has been in contact with several other Québec tour companies who are interested in adding a Native tourism component to their product line. We have also initiated negotiations with SDBJ for the takeover of Camp 257 on the James Bay Highway.

Hopefully, this is just the beginning of a trend towards co-management and eventual Cree ownership of facilities in the James Bay region.

The Cree are also establishing a new relationship with the people of Val-d'Or, La Sarre, Amos and Rouyn-Noranda. For instance, my brother Albert sits on a new committee in Val-d'Or that investigates potential business partners between our peoples. The city council was so impressed with this idea that it immediately allocated 25 000 $ to kick-start their promotional activities. Tourism partnerships are a high priority on their agenda since a portion of the 50 000 visitors to Val-d'Or could certainly be enticed to extend their holidays to include the islands and beaches of James Bay.

I'll bet you didn't know that Tent Island, Charleton Island and Strutton Island have beaches that rival those of Ogunquit or those of Old Orchard Beach in the Maine! They both have the same length and sand quality.

Infrastructures. Our greatest need at this time is to fund the required infrastructure development to expand tourism to its full potential. The permanent road is just the beginning, as I said, the backbone of the comprehensive local and regional industry development.

To succeed, we need more facilities to accommodate the tourist and encourage him to stay longer. We have conducted studies that indicate that we could attract 2 000 to 3 000 visitors within a few years of the opening of the road. This may seem high, but Chisasibi already gets more than 3 000 visitors each summer. We also know that about 80 % arrive by recreation vehicle or autocaravan, so we need a high quality campground on the Rupert River.

Since Waskaganish offers the closest access to James Bay, many of our visitors will want to experience Québec's Northern Ocean and its islands, birdlife, whales and sandy beaches. We therefore need accommodations on the islands and have proposed building an ecolodge on the scenic Tent Island.

We also know from our research that we can attract European bus traffic, but only if we expand our lodge to meet the needs of the motorcoach industry. Consequently, there is an immediate need to start planning for an additional eight to 10 units if they are to be available by 2001. Tourists will employ our guides to take them out onto James Bay. Our cooks will prepare traditional meals. Our musicians and storytellers will entertain them and, before they leave the community, our artists will sell them tamarack geese, moccasins, jewellery and other Cree products.

Our preliminary estimate indicates that by, say, the year 2008 tourists could spend close to 1 000 000 $ in Waskaganish and twice as much in the region. More than 45 jobs would be created locally and many of them would be job-entry positions that could bring our youth into the employment stream. If some of these people start their careers in tourism and then move on to other private sector jobs, then I will certainly come close to achieving our goal of creating 450 new jobs over the next decade.

But again, this vision can only be realized if the infrastructure is in place to hold the tourists in Waskaganish. The Cree Outfitting and Tourism Association in the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement allows this for to happen, but we need to let the operators and the people with the product start the association. We need seed money to call for the first meeting of the association and leave the politics and let the tourist operators do their business.

(11 heures)

I am frequently asked if we are ready to launch a business oriented strategy. You may be asking the same question as I speak. Well, let us look at the facts.

Privatization. We have been operating a successful transportation and commercial business in Waskaganish for the past 20 years. Our barge company, oil distribution and grocery stores are all profitable operations. Our new construction company, called Nooscan, is up and running and taking new contacts at this very moment. Also, Nooscan can get involved in mining and forestry. We have also launched a bold initiative to privatize our housing, and many people, including myself, are looking forward to paying a mortgage rather than renting, in order to eventually own our homes.

While home ownership is a fact of life in the South, it will become for us another vehicle for a greater understanding of fiscal responsibility and property ownership.

There is also a keen desire by Cree employees to join the ranks of the private sector. We actually have people leaving the security of band administration positions to set up small businesses or what you know as PME, petites et moyennes entreprises. The trappers, who are no strangers to operational efficiencies, trade and strategic planning, are showing exceptional interest in developing lodges and tourist camps to maximize the resources of their trapping territories.

Strategic alliances. Canada's major ailines have been making a big deal these days about strategic alliances and global networking. Let me tell you that this concept has been familiar to the Cree for decades. In the early 70s, we established a unique partnership with the Japanese when we created the Waskaganish-Yamaha joint venture. They wanted access to our markets and we wanted their technology and production knowledge. Our current relationship with the Dufour family has the same mission.

We need access to their markets and expertise and they require new and exciting products to compete in the global tourism market. And, as you know, a French, Italian or German tourist can go anywhere in the world, and we want them to spend their money in Québec. And Cree culture and the unspoiled beauty in James Bay is one of the ways to be well positioned in the international marketplace.

New alliances are emerging that will soon give us greater strength and commitment to our potential financial partners, such as Hydro-Québec, and forestry and mining companies. We are not afraid of this cooperative arrangements and frankly see them as a necessary step to establishing profitable and responsible Cree entities. There is no reason why SDBJ, for instance, cannot, over time, become a James Bay Cree development corporation operating on a cost recovery basis and stimulating economic activity through out the region. We have the understanding and respect for the environment.

We are committed to responsible northern development and we are rapidly gaining the expertise and the sense of accountability to operate these new enterprises.

But there is another partner that I consider essential to this strategic alliance: You, the political and administrative representatives of the Government of Québec. It would be foolish of us to try and advance a serious economic development initiative, train our young people, employ our youth and expect prosperity in the next century without a direct partnership with the Government of Québec. The Cree have survived because we are practical people and we know what we need to prepare for the new millennium. We have the resources, the will and the blueprint for development, but we need investors like you.

And I can guarantee you that a 10 000 000 $ investment from anyone of your ministries could be used to leverage millions more from the private sector, the federal government, the existing Cree businesses and entities. For both our people to survive and develop, we must have a plan of coexistence. We must have a plan of comanagement for northern resources. We must get on with a partnership in development and we must get on with revenu sharing in the North.

Your contribution to the construction of the Waskaganish permanent road is just a beginning, the backbone or the épine dorsale for numerous integrated economic development options that need your financial and technical support. My band council and the band membership gave me the full authority to move forward with an aggressive tourism and economic development program. We will continue to focus our human and financial resources to this end, but we want you as one of our partners and you need us, also, as one of your partners. And you will be rewarded.

Even your 30 000 000 $ investment in the road will be returned to government coffers within a few years, a better rate of return in today's stock market.

Help us build the additional infrastructure we need: the island camps, the mini-hydroelectric project, the nature and culture

interpretation centers, the world-class campground, the housing industry, the lodging expansion, and we will deliver the remaining partners: the foreign and québécois tour wholesalers, the outside investors, the Cree businesses and, of course, the thousands of tourists.

Finally, Waskaganish is poised to become the tourist and transportation gateway to James Bay and the Arctic. We will soon be the closest road accessible departure point for marine movement in northern coastal communities. I eventually envision a cruise and freight vessel leaving from Waskaganish, heading north and west to bring adventurous travellers and ecotourists and goods to the James Bay Coast. I invite you to share in this vision that will eventually link the people of the South with our populations and the magnificent resources of the North. Waskaganish and James Bay is open for business and, as you say in bon québécois: Parlons affaires.

I thank you for your attention and the time you gave me to make this presentation. Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Meegwetch!

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Merci, M. Diamond. Alors, vous avez pris 28 minutes pour faire votre présentation. Il reste à peu près 15 minutes et demie de chaque côté pour le questionnement. M. le ministre.

M. Chevrette: Merci, Mme la Présidente. Merci, M. Diamond. J'apprécie beaucoup le ton du mémoire parce qu'il reflète assez bien, merci, ce qu'un chef vivant sur le terrain peut vivre quotidiennement, et je voudrais vous remercier de l'approche et de l'ouverture, en particulier sur le partenariat, et de démontrer que c'est presque continuellement ensemble, dans tous les secteurs, qu'on peut établir des formes de partenariats pour le développement économique.

L'approche que vous avez dans le développement économique, personnellement, me sourit beaucoup, parce que c'est à peu près le discours que je tiens depuis au moins deux ans et qui se reflète dans la politique autochtone que nous avons adoptée en avril dernier.

Je voudrais répondre à quelques questions. Tout d'abord, la route de Waskaganish, je sais que vous avez travaillé très fort pour cette route, et les négociations sont quand même passablement avancées, à ce que je sache, mais je vais contribuer, cette semaine même, parce que j'en ai pris l'engagement ce matin, à regarder le point d'accrochage entre le fédéral et le provincial là-dessus, et je verrai à communiquer avec vous dans les meilleurs délais.

En ce qui regarde la construction de maisons, je vous avoue que, avec le taux de natalité que vous avez dans les neuf communautés, puis qu'on regarde une moyenne de six maisons par année, c'est tout à fait inacceptable et inconcevable. Mais, là-dessus, je dois vous dire que c'est la responsabilité du fiduciaire. Mais j'ai parlé à M. Coon Come ce matin, et je vais personnellement prendre position vis-à-vis du gouvernement central, leur demander carrément de remédier à ce problème majeur. J'ai dit que j'appuierais votre communauté et l'ensemble des communautés autochtones.

Dans plusieurs communautés, on retrouve des 10, 12, 15 personnes dans des quatre-et-demie, ce qui est tout à fait inacceptable. C'est un fait qui créera des problèmes sociaux majeurs, et j'ose espérer que le fiduciaire consentira à ouvrir ce dossier, et ce, très rapidement.

(11 h 10)

D'ailleurs, en ce qui regarde le logement social en général, le fédéral n'a aucune félicitation à recevoir; il s'est retiré de tout le logement social, et ce n'est que pour la forme, maintenant, qu'il s'occupe, en ce qui regarde votre communauté... parce que déjà ils se sont retirés du territoire cri, et c'est des balbutiements d'aide qu'ils ont – ils se sont retirés des Inuit, dis-je, et c'est des balbutiements face à votre communauté. J'ai l'intention de vous appuyer sur toute la ligne là-dedans et de demander même à mes collègues des autres provinces de se joindre à nous pour un appel pressant.

Pour ce qui est des miniprojets avec Hydro-Québec, je pense que c'est tout à fait même plausible dans la politique énergétique. Donc, il n'y a pas de problèmes de ce côté-là, ça cadre avec la vision que j'ai, en tout cas, comme ministre; pour favoriser les échanges avec Hydro, il n'y a pas de problèmes.

Votre approche touristique me plaît beaucoup, et je pense que le fonds que nous avons créé, de 125 000 000 $ sur cinq ans, serait une source. Il y a SODAB que nous allons réactiver. Et une complémentarité de la SD-SODAB pourrait permettre d'ouvrir, également, un autre champ de financement extrêmement intéressant. Je dois vous dire que j'aurai aussi plaisir à écouter votre collègue, M. Kitchen, qui sera avec nous tantôt, sur le Fonds régional de solidarité. De sorte que ce ne sont pas sources de financement qui manqueront.

J'aurais une question, une seule, et je pourrai peut-être permettre à mes collègues de poser des questions. Vous êtes chef négociateur avec le Québec depuis au moins... depuis que je suis là. Qu'est-ce que vous nous suggérez concrètement à partir de votre expérience, puisque... Pour mes collègues autour de la table, M. Diamond était le négociateur de la Convention de la Baie James, donc probablement celui qui détient... c'est la mémoire de cette Convention du côté autochtone, c'est évident. J'aimerais lui demander: Comment il voit le déroulement futur des négociations entre le gouvernement du Québec et la communauté crie?

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. Diamond.

M. Diamond (Billy): Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I just want to remark on one comment that the Minister has made, and that is in respect with partnership.

The Cree are not afraid of partnership. They have partners in business in respect to transportation, air transportation, and construction, as well as in delivery of goods and services in the Cree territory.

What I mean now is in respect to partnership, to be partners with the resources related to mining, forestry, hydroelectric development and even into tourism. The Cree are quite capable of getting involved into the areas of building the roads for forestry, into alternative cutting methods, into restricting cutting methods in the forestry sector, as well as the Cree are looking for revenue sharing in those formats.

I think what made the Troïlus Agreement successful is the partial agreement on revenue sharing. More and more, the Cree want direct monetary benefit from these particular projects, so you're going to hear more emphasis on revenue sharing. And the form has to be developed. When the Cree talk about partnership, they talk about partnership from day 1, partnership in planning, partnership in development and partnership in extracting those resources. The Cree don't want to be silent partners. The Cree don't want to be partners just for the sake of having an Indian as a partner. The Cree want an active role.

They want to participate, they want to be in a role of decision making. I think that is the difference.

I want to remind the commission that there is a bilateral agreement between the Cree and James Bay Development Corporation, that was signed in 1975, concerning partnership and economic development. There was never a meeting that I recall, there was never a discussion, there was never any exchange about the implementation of that bilateral agreement, and that bilateral agreement has been in existence since the days of the James Bay Development Corporation.

Leading up to the Minister's question and answering the Minister's question, if we need to correct the situation, we must have an implementation process. As we negotiate agreements like we did in the Memorandum of understanding, as we negotiate the MOU, we must also have an implementation and delivery of the benefits of that agreement immediately. The Cree want delivery of housing, they want delivery of services, they want what was promised to them in 1975, and if you can deliver the agreement as you negotiate, you have probably implemented your own MOU.

I think that this is the most difficult part about negotiations: it's dealing with the bureaucracy and dealing with the decision-making level on both sides, including my side and including your side, and getting Treasury Board and central agencies to agree. I know the Minister has to go back again and again, back to Cabinet, back to Treasury Board. But the decision-making process is too cumbersome for a proper implementation plan when we negotiate agreements. Negotiations with the deputy minister and the other deputy ministers is long and lengthy, while we have good discussions and so on, but it's making the implementation quite long.

So, in my own experience, there has to be an implementation plan and there has to be a delivery of those agreements as we negotiate and sign them. And I think that the Cree people are very serious and they want to deal in good faith. They want to have serious discussions, an open dialogue and negotiations, good negotiations, and those negotiations have to be done in good faith. But, on the government side and the Cree side, the difficulty is implementation.

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. le député de Jacques-Cartier.

M. Kelley: Merci beaucoup, Mme la Présidente. Welcome, Chief Diamond. As always, it's interesting, because there are perspectives in the future in your brief; the things you talk about are always presented in a hopeful way. I guess my first question – we've talked about it, and just perhaps for the record, to explain to the community the importance of the road project. You allude to it in your brief, but I think it's very important to understand how long the community has worked on it and its importance to all the other things, the dreams that you have for the community of Waskaganish.

M. Diamond (Billy): The road project is in the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement. Canada and Québec and the Cree were supposed to negotiate and develop a road project. I do not need a road simply just to block it; I don't want a road to block.

Une voix: Ha, ha, ha!

M. Diamond (Billy): But the road is blocking me from development, from economic development.

Des voix: Ha, ha, ha!

M. Diamond (Billy): Ha, ha, ha! I wanted to get the Minister's reaction on that one.

Des voix: Ha, ha, ha!

M. Kelley: I think the Minister will be happy to hear that.

M. Diamond (Billy): We need the road for economic development. We've been working on this road now for at least 10 years, but more seriously in the last three years, and we were doing quite well with the Cree and the Government of Québec, and we have our own expertise on our side: we have engineers assigned, we've done the environmental impact statement, we have gone through the procedures that... The environmental impact statement will go to the review committee and it will go back to the community for public hearings.

(11 h 20)

And we see the road as an opportunity. We don't want the road to simply come into our village and we don't want to be a village at the end of a road, we want to go out, you know, we want to reach out to the rest of the world, and this is our approach to economic development. We believe that we can make strategic alliances with the community of Matagami and we believe that we can also make strategic alliances with this Radissonie group. We're not afraid of the Radissonie group. If there are benefits to our side that we could look at, it's going to be on a business to business basis.

And certainly, we have strategic alliances with the forestry companies. We deal with forestry companies because of their impact on our trap lands. But for us to get to Matagami, Amos and Val-d'Or will require an important permanent road. And this permanent road is designed. It's not a secondary forestry road, it's not designed as a forestry road, it's designed as a regional connective road, as part of the road network of Quebec.

But getting the decisions and getting the road agreement, the construction and the implementation plan is taking longer that we expect. We want to start construction in november of this year. And in order to do that, all the approvals must be obtained. So... but it's a road, also, that takes into consideration the employment opportunities for the Cree. It's not going to be done in one year, it's not going to be done in two years, it's going to be done in three years, so that you stretch out the employment opportunities for Cree companies and Cree individuals and Cree businesses.

M. Kelley: You talked about the need to create 450 jobs for the next ten years, so principally for young people. Is enough being done, is enough available in terms of the kind of training, the kind of education they need? Some of the other groups that have come forward have said that there are specific areas, whether it's tourism, forestry or mining, the hydroelectric development, environmental studies, these are the areas where jobs would be created in the North in the future, not limited to that, but those are areas where we know... employment. And is enough in terms of the preparation, laying the groundwork for that kind of job creation being done?

M. Diamond (Billy): Well, it is being done. When I was chairman of the Cree School Board, in 1978, we had four students in post-secondary education. And now, in 1998, 20 years later, we have more that 400 students in post-secondary education. But those 400 students are taking their education in the province of Quebec, in various cegeps and universities.

What we are talking about is, even though we have a success rate in the Cree School Board of giving post-secondary education, we also have a horrible drop out rate, and we have a lot of young people who are caught between two worlds, the modern industrial society and our traditional way of life. In order to turn that, we must have a human resources strategic plan, and that human resources strategic plan can only be accomplished through a human resources agreement between the Cree and the department of Manpower of the province of Quebec, which we're negotiating and trying to develop.

Once we have that plan, and once we know the numbers we're dealing with, then we can expand into developing a training center for young people.

As an example, we're really not talking about a building here, because, on tourism, we're quite advanced on tourism and we take care of the tourism training in Waskaganish, Waswanipi can take care of the forestry training, Mistassini can take care of the mining training, Chisasibi can take care of the hydroelectric training, Wemindji could take care of the aviation, and so on. So there are opportunities already to satellite the training programs for young people.

But what we need to do is to recognize that transfer of technology to young people can be done at long distance with modern technology, modern education programs, and that must be made available to the Cree communities. More and more cree communities are using the Internet and more and more young people are getting involved in this technology. And as these young people get involved in this technology, you will see great advances in respect to human resources. Human resources strategic plan is the key in this process, and right now it's non existent, and we need to sit down together to develop it.

M. Kelley: On another issue that the Minister raised: the Kativik Regional Government, in their exchange with us last week on the terrible problem of housing, because I think everyone can look at... You can read a demographic chart and you can see that, with the rapid development of the population, with the youth of the population of northern communities, housing is an important issue. One of their representatives, maybe it was Johnny Adams, but that's just from memory, suggested that maybe private ownership is part of the answer. Are there other solutions?

Because I see your proposal in your brief about the potential for preconstruction of homes that could be done from Waskaganish... With a road, with a boat access, because we know how expensive it is building houses in the Inuit territory. Is there a solution other than just governments building houses, or is there a role for the private sector or private ownership? Is it something that has a future one day, I'm not saying for tomorrow, but for one day?

M. Diamond (Billy): Yes. Mr. Kelley, the statistics are quite staggering, but the situation has changed in the Cree communities. Since 1975, our demographics are not the same. There are less marriages, there are more and more common law unions, there are more single parents, and our elders are getting older and older, and what we need right now in the Cree communities is a housing needs analysis and to build houses according to the needs of the people. Because, right now, we're building houses simply for the sake of building houses, and we're still building three-bedroom houses for a family of fifteen.

We need to build houses according to the need of the family and to take a look at not only home ownership, but also alternative housing. There must be alternative housing, such as...

What we have done is look at duplexes, quadplexes, and bachelor units and bungalows, to relieve the emptiness syndrome among the elderly and to really look at the possibility of moving people around, and not only look at housing in respect to what the needs of the Cree community are, but also look at housing with respect to the needs of the Cree school board, the Cree health board, the transients in the territory, as well as to the mining and forestry companies, and look at housing not from a social issue point of view, but rather from an industrial point of view, look at it from an economic development point of view.

That's what we're suggesting. And if you do that, you generate not only the industry in the local community, but also you generate the economy in the Abitibi region or in the Chibougamau-Chapais region, because those suppliers and those contractors, especially the small contractors related to electricity, to plumbing and drywall, those local contractors will receive the benefits. So you generate the economy by looking at housing as an industry, not simply as a social issue.

And I think if there could be a major housing conference in the North whereby you look at housing for Northern Québec, you could relieve a lot of the social problems as well as create a 10-year housing plan or a 20-year housing plan that can really provide sustainable development in Northern Québec.

M. Kelley: Because a lot of what you said about the transfer technologies, with the road, Waskaganish, its ability as a port to service the other communities up the Hudson's Bay and even into Ungava Bay, it's very interesting. In conclusion, obviously, with your promotion of the beaches, I guess you're for global warming; that would help out as well to make those beaches look as attractive as Old Orchard!

Just a final comment on what you said about revenue sharing. Because I think this goes a lot to the key and, as one of the people who is a bit the memory of the James Bay Agreement, it seems to me that self-government, or however we want to phrase it, will only be solved when we solve the financing question, because we have to move from a dependency relationship or a granting relationship to something where there are Cree revenues that Cree people can decide how to spend. Perhaps if you can just conclude talking about that just a little bit, because I think it's a key element of the future of the relationship.

(11 h 30)

M. Diamond (Billy): Well, in 1975, we did use words like «revenue sharing», but the public and the Government of Québec, at that time of 1975, were not ready for such radical phrases in their administration, and the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement, for all practical purposes, was the first one in all of Canada. So a lot of people were very nervous in respect to its signature, including the Cree, how well it would be received and how it would be accepted.

And, if I recall, M. Chevrette was in the Opposition back then and he apposed his signature on the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement. And I remember being in the same room, explaining that it should be signed, but in respect to revenue sharing.

But now, revenue sharing is something that the Government of Québec has tabled, and revenue sharing is a matter that is now being discussed, but we're talking about revenue sharing with respect to not only the resources, but also sharing with respect to the production and the extraction of those resources. And being involved. We want to be involved. We see those resources as our resources, and if they are our resources, we should have every benefit.

And we know that there are certain extractions of resources, and those resources should be shared, not only with the Cree population but all the Cree communities should benefit from those resources. So, revenue sharing is a new agenda item, and it's going to be quite an exercise to find a formula that will be acceptable to both parts.

What I would like to say about revenue sharing is that it is different from compensation. Compensation exists. There is compensation in the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement, and that compensation is provided; but there's also compensation, even today, for existing development. So, we are talking about compensation plus revenue sharing, and we have no intention of looking at projects that will be of mass destruction to the Cree territory again. We are looking for projects that will enhance and promote Cree traditional way of life and protect that Cree traditional way of life, yet at the same time provide to us a revenue sharing formula, to the Cree people.

M. Kelley: Thank you, Chief Diamond.

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. le ministre.

M. Chevrette: Mme la Présidente, vous me permettrez de poser une autre question. M. Coon Come, dans sa présentation tantôt, parlait de partnership ou de partenariat en autant qu'il y avait une possibilité de revenus soutenus. Quelle est votre opinion par rapport à l'offre que Hydro-Québec fait de ce temps-ci avec les sociétés en commandite pour l'aménagement, par exemple... dérivation de rivières ou autres projets du genre? Quelle est votre évaluation de cette approche?

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): M. Diamond.

(Consultation)

M. Diamond (Billy): Are you asking my opinion on what I think of the proposal from Hydro-Québec on revenue sharing?

M. Chevrette: Revenue sharing or société... joint venture or partnership for action capital.

M. Diamond (Billy): There are some concrete proposals from Hydro-Québec, and I was there at the meeting in Waskaganish where the president of Hydro-Québec has made a presentation to the community. For us, this is something new and we are a little staggered by its presentation because it is based on three conditions: One, it must be environmentally acceptable; two, it must be a profitable project and, third, it must be acceptable to the First Nations involved.

However, we have to look at the context of the project; and for us to be involved in any kind of revenue sharing, you have to look at it in respect to what the compensation is. If the compensation is just turned around and used back as equity into the project, then we have a problem immediately, because if you are going to be involved in partnership you must be involved in partnership in the development and the planning of the project. Hydro-Québec cannot simply be involved in planning and doing all the development of the project. The Cree have to be involved in every stage of the project, to be in-partners.

They must be involved in planning, they must be involved in development of that project and they must be involved in finding a customer or the consumer of that project.

So, therefore, it must be on a day-to-day basis, were the offer made to Waskaganish. Waskaganish must be involved on a day-to-day basis in developing that project, as well as finding out whether that part would be feasible or not. There must be proper feasibility studies, and the Cree must be involved in those feasibility studies. And, based on all that information, then you can develop what the revenue sharing formula should be.

The information must be shared. The information must be made available to the Cree. That is not being done right now. The Cree have just been made this offer, while all the plans and everything is being done by Hydro-Québec. That, to me, is not partnership. That's one-sided partnership. You can no longer dictate what the Cree should get. The Cree should dictate what their involvement in the sharing of the project should be. And I think that's the difficulty that we have with the proposal.

(11 h 40)

Mind you, it's still a proposal. And it's still a proposal that's different, that's new, and that requires consideration and study by the Cree. And the Cree are doing that.

M. Chevrette: Merci beaucoup, et j'espère que l'approche que vous avez est partagée par l'ensemble des chefs cris des neuf communautés.

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Merci, M. Diamond.

M. Diamond (Billy): Thank you.

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Je demanderais maintenant au Fonds régional de solidarité Nord-du-Québec de bien vouloir s'approcher à la table.

(Changement d'organisme)

La Présidente (Mme Bélanger): Bienvenue. M. le député de Jacques-Cartier, nous reprenons nos travaux. C'est M. Kitchen? Oui? Alors, vous avez 20 minutes pour présenter votre mémoire, suivi d'un questionnaire, du côté ministériel, de 20 minutes, et, du côté de l'opposition, de 20 minutes. Alors, vous avez la parole.

Fonds régional de solidarité Nord-du-Québec

M. Kitchen (John): Merci, Mme la Présidente et tous les membres de la commission. Bonjour. Je représente le Fonds de solidarité Nord-du-Québec aujourd'hui.

Issu d'un partenariat entre la Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec, le gouvernement du Québec, le Fonds de solidarité des travailleurs du Québec et les intervenants socioéconomiques de la région, le Fonds régional de solidarité Nord-du-Québec est lancé officiellement à Chibougamau le 19 avril 1997. Le Fonds régional Nord-du-Québec dessert la plus vaste région administrative du Québec, avec 840 km², soit 55 % de la superficie du Québec. Sur son territoire, on trouve neuf communautés cries, 14 villages Inuit et cinq villes de non-autochtones, une population totale de 36 395 habitants.

La mission du Fonds régional est claire: investir dans des entreprises des montants de 50 000 $ à 500 000 $ et leur apporter un soutien technique dans le but de créer, maintenir et sauvegarder des emplois en région. Le Fonds régional dispose d'un capital initial de 6 000 000 $. Il investit dans des entreprises en démarrage, aux premiers stades de développement, en croissance ou en redressement. Les priorités régionales quant aux secteurs d'intervention sont fixées par le conseil d'administration.

Elles vont au tourisme, aux nouvelles technologies de communication, au transport et au secteur des ressources naturelles, mines et forêt. Les secteurs exclus sont les services financiers, le commerce de détail, de même que l'exploration et l'exploitation pétrolières. Les véhicules d'investissements couramment utilisés sont de deux types: capital- actions et prêt sans garantie. L'horizon de l'investissement sera généralement de trois à sept ans.

Le cheminement d'une demande. Les projets déposés sont évalués en fonction de plusieurs éléments: perspectives de croissance et de rentabilité de l'entreprise; contribution du projet à la création ou au maintien d'emplois stables, rémunérateurs et durables; qualité de gestion des ressources humaines; expertise, expérience et compétence de l'équipe de gestion; retombées économiques du projet pour la région et son potentiel de rayonnement régional; importance d'un partenaire stratégique.

L'organisation. Il ne s'agit pas d'une décentralisation du Fonds de solidarité des travailleurs du Québec mais bien d'un fonds autonome proche de son hl

milieu. Le conseil d'administration du Fonds régional de solidarité Nord-du-Québec est formé de neuf personnes, majoritairement de la région, et la représentativité des trois groupes qui peuplent le territoire y est assurée. Les Cris, les Inuit et les non-autochtones. Le Fonds régional possède donc les ressources et les pleins pouvoirs pour choisir et autoriser les investissements les plus créateurs d'emplois pour la région.

The first year of operations. The Fonds de solidarité completed his first year of operations in March 1998. The investments requested from all three ethnic groups were proceeded in various activity sectors: meat slaughtering and packaging, air transportation, excavation, grading work, etc. On twelve requests made, four lead to the disbursements. The distribution of the projects analyzed is quite representative of the region: 16 % Cree, 25 % Inuit and 58,33 % non-Native.

However, despite of all efforts made by the professionals of the Fonds régional, no disbursements have yet been made to a project under Native control, Cree or Inuit. During the coming year, many new challenges await both the directors and the professionals of the Fonds régional. In addition to realizing investments to diversify the portfolio, which remains our constant priority, the question of economic development of non-Natives in the North of Quebec region is our preoccupation.

The Fonds régional acknowledges the necessity of creating, inventing and modelling its instruments in order to make the correspondence with our regional reality. The consultation is already underway with Natives of the North of Québec region having this experience.

Of course, since the very first meeting of the Fonds régional de solidarité, in January 1997, adjustments had to be made to make each group comfortable with the negotiation... The first and probably one of the most important was the langage and the documents, the language of the meetings and the operations of the board of directors.

In May 1997, a small committee consisting of the directors from three groups has been formed to reach a consensus on operating procedures and report to the board of directors. It should be noted that the Cree, the Inuit are bilingual and some are trilingual. They speak their mother tongue, the Cree and Inuktitut, and have developed a second language, English. This is even more evident in the villages of the Nunavik, since they are only accessible by plane or by boat.

The second ajustment was made necessarily by the repeated absence of certain directors. In October 1997, during a regular meeting, it was agreed that after two consecutive and unforeseen absences of a director, the chairman of the board would verify the person's availabily and interest in the continuation of his mandate. This led to the election of two new directors in February 1998.

We also had to explain time and time again that the position of the directors of the Fonds régional is linked only to the person, that no representative or a proxi other than a director has the right to vote and to take in the decisions of the Fonds régional.

Finally, the setting of meetings of the board of directors needed a few adjustments. During the first year, due to logistics reasons respecting transportation, meeetings of the board took place in Montréal. It soon became an irritant for a said «regional fund». For 1998-1999, the directors have therefore chosen to hold most of the meetings in North of Québec. In addition to already planned meetings at the head office of the Fonds régional in Chibougamau, meetings of the board of directors will be held in the Cree territory and also Inuit territory.

À la lumière de la récente expérience du Fonds régional comme société réunissant les Cris, les Inuit et les non-autochtones, il n'est que trop évident de constater que le développement de la région Nord-du-Québec passe par un rapprochement des trois ethnies. Dans tout comité de travail, groupe d'intérêts ou association à caractère régional, la représentativité des trois groupes doit être assurée, puisque les enjeux sont souvent les mêmes.

Plusieurs nouveaux moyens de rapprochement entre les trois groupes peuvent être ici apportés: Créer une table d'échanges apolitique réunissant des représentants de sociétés disposant de financement et possédant une expérience d'affaires avec les Cris, les Inuit et les non-autochtones. Par exemple, chez les Cris, le Eeyou Economic Group; chez les Inuit, c'est Nunavik Investment Corporation et la Société d'aide au développement des collectivités.

Cette table pourrait facilement se réunir deux fois par année pour partager son expérience sur une base régionale; se servir des associations reconnues et acceptées par les trois groupes comme outil privilégié de réseautage, tel l'Association d'affaires des Premiers Peuples, en participant rigoureusement à leurs activités et en appuyant le recrutement de personnes soucieuses du développement global de la région; favoriser le maillage d'affaires entre les Cris, les Inuit et les non-autochtones par des mesures ficales concrètes pour les sociétés démontrant une participation mixte entre au moins deux des trois groupes.

À

titre d'exemple: crédits d'impôts spéciaux, report de pertes d'entreprise avec un facteur de majoration, exonération de la taxe sur le capital, etc.

Pour le Fonds régional, le succès d'un véritable conseil d'administration régional est la résultante de plusieurs facteurs: l'indivisibilité du capital initial du commanditaire, de 6 000 000 $, par région; la fixation au départ d'objectifs communs pour les trois groupes – emplois, soutien technique, entrepreneurship, etc.); le respect des cultures et des langues; le désir de trouver des avenues de règlement plutôt que la recherche de la solution idéale.

(11 h 50)

Mais surtout, au-delà de tous les mécanismes corporatifs ou gouvernementaux, demeure la volonté des individus de développer une identité régionale. L'une des clés du rapprochement des trois ethnies réside au fait de se rendre sur le terrain pour rencontrer les habitants de la région chez eux, de desservir ces gens à partir de la région plutôt que de l'extérieur et d'échanger dans une perspective de développement durable.

Ça finit mon rapport, puis je vous remercie.

Le Président (M. Dion): Merci beaucoup, M. Kitchen. Je donne maintenant la parole à M. le ministre pour la deuxième

partie de cette rencontre.

M. Chevrette: Oui. Merci, M. le président et merci, M. Kitchen. Je pense que vous êtes un exemple vivant du partnership, en tout cas, qui est recherché sur le territoire conventionné, puisque vous participez très activement au Fonds de solidarité, Fonds de solidarité qui a été d'abord négocié entre le gouvernement actuel et la Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec pour aider dans l'ensemble des régions du Québec. Et on a voulu que le Nord québécois ait son fonds de solidarité, qu'il ne soit pas dépendant d'autres régions avoisinantes ou connexes.

Et le fait que vous occupiez un poste de commande prouve bien cette volonté, y compris de la Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec et du gouvernement actuel, de faire en sorte qu'on ait des moyens de financement des entreprises du Nord. Et je voudrais vous remercier de votre présentation.

Mais, comme vous êtes aussi chef d'une communauté, que vous avez déjà négocié, vous, un partnership dans le domaine forestier, puisque la scierie que nous avons inaugurée il y a déjà un bon moment... J'apprécierais que vous nous entreteniez, à la fois comme membre bien sûr du Fonds de solidarité, mais aussi comme chef d'une communauté, du type... L'expérience que vous vivez, est-ce que c'est concluant, pour vous, en ce qui regarde, par exemple, toute la scierie qui est en marche présentement?

M Kitchen (John): On a entendu ce matin plusieurs leaders cris qui ont parlé d'un partnership. Puis aussi, moi-même, j'ai une autre manière de penser au partnership. Quand on parle d'un partnership, il faut qu'on soit vraiment réaliste, aussi, d'un projet, puis aussi partager nos affaires personnelles, nos affaires professionnelles puis notre culture.

Exemple, comme vous soulevez, le partnership avec Domtar puis la nation crie de Waswanipi. Si on regarde ça, c'est 55 % pour les Cris puis 45 % à Domtar. Mais, souvent, ces réunions-là, c'est des réunions qui sont très, très dures, des fois, mais on se comprend. On se comprend pour comment on peut regarder une entreprise puis aussi on voit le succès. Un exemple que je vous donne: il y a eu des problèmes de financement avec la scierie puis il fallait qu'on ferme un shift. Mais, pour faire ça, ce n'était pas facile pour nous autres, tu sais, mais on l'a fait quand même.

Mais, aujourd'hui, au moment où on se parle, on voit déjà le positif de cette affaire-là. Mais, dans un ou deux mois, on pourra ouvrir l'autre shift encore pour Waswanipi. Ça, c'est un partnership, tu sais, dont on parle comme ça. Mais c'est un partnership aussi où... il y a différentes personnes dans les communautés qui sont contre le développement. Mais, quand on parle de développement, à Waswanipi, on a regardé pour un référendum sur ce projet-là. Puis, quand on regarde les chiffres, c'est totalement, un très vaste pourcentage: 78 % en faveur, puis 20 % qui n'étaient pas d'accord. Avec ça, c'est très bon.

Puis aussi, quand on parle de la foresterie, on a beaucoup de monde qui supporte la foresterie dans la communauté de Waswanipi. Comme le chef Diamond disait concernant le «training» dans la foresterie, à Waswanipi, ça, c'est un exemple, puis, Waswanipi, je pense qu'elle est connue comme une communauté qui veut vraiment développer la foresterie.

M. Chevrette: Quels étaient les arguments des opposants à un tel projet de partnership, les principaux arguments? Je ne vous demande pas d'étaler les divergences au sein de votre communauté, mais pour savoir, est-ce que c'est des traditionalistes, ou qui se disaient traditionalistes, ou si c'est des gens qui ne voulaient absolument pas changer les traditions ancestrales d'aucune manière? Mais c'est quoi?

M Kitchen (John): Je dirais, il y a deux personnes, tu sais. Dans la politique aussi, dans le gouvernement, il y a toujours un opposant à vous, tu sais, qui ne veut pas que tu développes, qui ne veut pas que tu t'avances, qui ne veut pas que tu aies des projets, et il va faire t